# Opinions on how to address a muddy barn floor...



## Wojo

I am need of some advice/opinions. 

I have a 24' x 28' pole barn that currently has a dirt floor. I'd be just fine with that, if it remained dirt all the time. When it rains enough that the ground around the barn is saturated with water the barn floor turns to mud. I need to fix this.

Concrete would be cost prohibitive for what I use the barn for. It's used primarily for storage for the larger equipment (quad, tractor, snow thrower, roto tiller, log splitter, etc), and once in a while for a "garage" when I need to work on a car or other equipment. I'm thinking of laying in about 4-6" of gravel...probably limestone for for it's compact-ability. The moisture in the barn is an issue because of the equipment we keep in there, and the risk of rust and corrosion. Is there some form of substrate I should consider for under the gravel...sand or other?

I am also considering laying about a 1' wide border of gravel around the exterior, using a landscaping border to keep the gravel "piled" against the barn. I have gaps between the bottom of the sheathing and the ground, and my thought is that gravel would be better than building up the ground to fill the gaps...since the ground will hold moisture and rot the wood. The goal is to keep out varmints, and to cut the wind intrusion so that the barn could be heated with a wood stove in the cold weather months, for those times when I need to work on something and need it to be a "garage". I already have the wood stove, thanks to a good friend's generosity.

My question probably reveals that I'm relatively new to country living.  I'm guessing the answer is probably obvious to someone out there...or at least I hope it is. So, does anyone have any thoughts/advice/opinions? Any input would be appreciated. Even smartass comments are welcome.


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## Wolfy-hound

Have you tried ditching it?

I've used mulch(some places have free mulch at country dumps/recycling) to raise an area too. 

My first thought would be to try to ditch it to divert the water off somewhere else. Then raise the bed up with fill of some sort.


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## MichaelZ

A load of gravel could fix this. Have it dumped as close as possible and spread to a depth of 3 " or so. I have done this in a few sheds that had dirt floors.

To reduce water, ditch as suggested. 

I can relate to the mud - in our clay soil we are muddy as could be with our recent 5" of rain.


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## Bearfootfarm

> When it rains enough that the ground around the barn is saturated with water the barn floor turns to mud. I need to fix this.


You need to to route the water *away from the barn.*
A 1 ft pile of gravel won't do anything at all.

Ditching or drainage tile is the best way to do it, and add sand or gravel inside to raise the floor level


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## fishhead

Maybe rain gutters to divert the roof runoff away from the building.

I have a problem with water in my basement if I don't put up rain gutters on my house so that might be a solution in your case too.


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## Wojo

Thanks for the responses. :thumb: With the amount of water I get in the barn (with the rain we've had lately I actually have standing water in about 1/4 of it) I think I'll need to hit this a couple ways. I'll have some topsoil brought in and fill the low spots around the barn. I'll install some drainage tile around the barn to draw the water away, to a low spot in the woods behind the barn. The front end loader should make short work of both. 

I'm already planning on the border with the gravel around the perimeter of the barn. I'll just dig it a bit deeper and bury the drainage tile under the gravel...two birds, one stone. I'll still go ahead and lay in 4" of limestone in the barn to cut down on the dampness. I can get 16 yards of 21AA delivered for less than $300...$18/yard. That'll be enough for in and around the barn.

Good plan? Holes in it? 

Thanks again! :thumb:


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## Wojo

fishhead said:


> Maybe rain gutters to divert the roof runoff away from the building.
> 
> I have a problem with water in my basement if I don't put up rain gutters on my house so that might be a solution in your case too.


My hesitation is that if I add gutters I run the risk in the winter time of an ice dam forming, and if there isn't a proper waterproof barrier down at the bottom of the roofline (and I'm fairly safe in assuming there isn't) the water would back up under the shingles and compromise the sheathing...creating an even bigger problem. The roof is in otherwise good condition, and I'd rather not take up the shingles until I have to. The barn does have extended eaves, so the water is already put a fair distance from the structure. I think the drainage tile may be the better way to go.

I've been hesitant to add gutters to the house for the very same reason. I've been seriously considering this as an alternative. http://www.rainhandler.com/about-rainhandler/


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## Bearfootfarm

> I'll still go ahead and lay in 4" of limestone in the barn to cut down on the dampness


Since you're adding material inside anyway, it wouldn't hurt to cover the floor with *plastic* first as a vapor barrior.

I think the drain tiles will fix most of the problem though


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## Darren

Ditto on the plastic as a vapor barrier under the gravel in case you decide to add a concrete floor in the future. In any case lay geotextile under the gravel. Lay the geotextile on top of the plastic. Use crush and run to avoid marbling and get a good hard packed surface. The fines in the crush and run lock the bigger pieces in place.


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## fishhead

Ice dams are usually the result of heated buildings. If your building isn't heated it should be a problem.

I keep the ice dams from backing the melt water up by raking the bottom 4' of roof whenever I see a dam forming to expose the roof above the dam to the cold.


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## Sawmill Jim

One time i needed a cheep concrete floor and was broke . So i leved off about four inches of sandy gravel then poured several bags of portland cement on it This i smoothed out then garbed the garden hose and garden tiller . Just don't dig to the dirt mix a while and smooth a while . 

I have heard about folks getting that limestone with fines in it and dusting it with portland cement then sprinkling it but i have never tried that yet


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## moeh1

I have the rainhandlers installed, you only get about a foot out with an 8-9 foot wall. This only helps if you can address the drainage issues to keep the water away from the barn.


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## Micheal

As to inside, locally we can get what is called "stone dust" my brother-in-law spread it in his pole barn and tamped it down. It sure works better than gravel, specially if'n you spill something on it. You at least get a chance to clean it up before it slowly sinks in.


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## DarleneJ

My husband installed drainage on three sides around our and tied the gutters directly into it.


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## Wojo

The challenge I'm having with the drainage is finding someplace low enough to drain to. The barn is sitting in the low spot, which of course is why I'm having the problem in the first place. With no natural lower depression to drain to it looks like I'll be making one. It won't be this weekend. After five straight days of rain it's too boggy out there. I'll probably only manage to get the tractor stuck. I've got a few things on the honey-do list for this weekend, anyway. Happy wife...happy life. 

I'll take the advice on the vapor barrier. Keeping the condensation in the air down is one of the goals, to keep the gear in the barn from rusting. 

I was thinking of using the Rain Handlers on the house...not on the barn. Sorry if I wasn't clear. The extended eaves on the barn put the runoff water from the roof well enough from the building. I have no drainage issues around the house, but I'm in the middle of a basement finishing project. After making this big of an investment in $$ and labor I'd feel just a bit better moving the water even a foot further away from the foundation.

Regarding ice dams, I have to travel a lot for work. I wouldn't be home all the time to keep after them, and I could wind up coming home to a mess.


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## Darren

If you're going to use tile in gravel, consider running a french drain using geotextile to prevent long term soil intrusion and blockage. If the gravel is anything with sharp edges use a heavy plastic to help resist punctures. Covering the plastic with geotextile will protect it.


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## seven7seven

Do not add plastic under the gravel. This is bad advice.  Plastic is a vapor barrier, yes, but gravel is designed, in this case as a drainage bed. If you line the bottom of a drainage bed with an impervious surface you create ponding in the gravel. Always, always put plastic on top of the gravel below the concrete. But in your case since you don't plan to pour a slab just place the gravel, make sure natural grade does not drain to the barn divert water. Problem solved for <$1000.


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## mekasmom

Personally, I would buy a few bags of sackcrete and liberally sprinkle it on the floor whenever it became wet. Over time, you will have a hard floor that doesn't hold a lot of water. It wouldn't be as smooth as cement that was brought in and laid from a truck, but it will solve your problem, and is only about $10 a bag. You can also put gravel down first, then go ahead and sprinkle the sackcrete as needed when it is wet. If you end up with too much dust, then sprinkle the hose over it. It will solve your problem for around $100 or so depending on the size of the area.


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## Nimrod

Even the biggest, nastiest wood stove can not heat an uninsulated space the size of a barn in the dead of a Michigan winter. I would wall off a part to be used as an automotive shop and insulate it.


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## Wojo

Darren said:


> If you're going to use tile in gravel, consider running a french drain using geotextile to prevent long term soil intrusion and blockage. If the gravel is anything with sharp edges use a heavy plastic to help resist punctures. Covering the plastic with geotextile will protect it.


Good advice. I definitely plan to wrap the drainage tile.



seven7seven said:


> Do not add plastic under the gravel. This is bad advice. Plastic is a vapor barrier, yes, but gravel is designed, in this case as a drainage bed. If you line the bottom of a drainage bed with an impervious surface you create ponding in the gravel. Always, always put plastic on top of the gravel below the concrete. But in your case since you don't plan to pour a slab just place the gravel, make sure natural grade does not drain to the barn divert water. Problem solved for <$1000.


That does make sense. Thanks!



mekasmom said:


> Personally, I would buy a few bags of sackcrete and liberally sprinkle it on the floor whenever it became wet. Over time, you will have a hard floor that doesn't hold a lot of water. It wouldn't be as smooth as cement that was brought in and laid from a truck, but it will solve your problem, and is only about $10 a bag. You can also put gravel down first, then go ahead and sprinkle the sackcrete as needed when it is wet. If you end up with too much dust, then sprinkle the hose over it. It will solve your problem for around $100 or so depending on the size of the area.


This idea has been knocking around my head for some time, and I was wondering when I asked if anyone on here would recommend it. 



Nimrod said:


> Even the biggest, nastiest wood stove can not heat an uninsulated space the size of a barn in the dead of a Michigan winter. I would wall off a part to be used as an automotive shop and insulate it.


Oh, I know the heat will go right up and out. I'm not looking to actually "heat" the barn, as much as take the chill off when working out there. If I can just get it above freezing out there, or even just have something warm to stand next to every once in awhile, I'll be better off than I am now. My Carharrts will still be doing the most to keep me warm.


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## Darren

In a french drain you wrap the gravel and the pipe. If you buy crush and run, you may not need cement/sackcrete/quikcrete. Crush and run packs and tightens up enough to make a good work surface.


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## Joe.G

Ok, Everyone has different ideas of what to do here and they all may work or have worked for different situations. Now This is only my idea of what I would do.
First do you have Pictures? All sides of building different angles inside outside the works.

If it was me I would put drainage around the building, French Drain/Perimeter drain, Or a ditch.
I would also grade the land to have water run away from the building, It most likley wouldn't be as big of a job as it sounds.
I Then would put in a Concrete floor, But since you don't want that I would then Put down a vapor barrier ( As long as the water is now running away from the building, If water is still getting in then I would Not put the vapor barrier down.)
I then would put Crusher run down and once packed down it gets hard and should last a long time, Its just not nice to lay on and what not even though it is pretty smooth.

I have had good luck also with wood floors, If you can keep the water out You could put a wood floor over the crusher run, Depending on the size of the euipment you would build to hold it, All of these options could be done for pretty cheap depending on your skill and so on.

Gutters may not be a bad idea either.


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## joebill

Sounds like you are near a limestone quarry. An eventual sure-fire cure for mud is to keep putting oversize crushed limestone on it and rolling it in with a vehicle until it won't hold any more. It will only roll so far down until it has "hardened" the floor and can't be pushed any further down.

Then, put in some of either road pack or ag lime for a finer finish. Talk to the folks at the quarry and they'll fill in the details. This is ( or used to be) the mix that goes under rural oil roads before the oil finish goes on, and you can drive semis over it without sinking.

Oversize is crushed limestone around 2" in size, Roadpack is a mix of all sizes and ag lime is coarse powder. When you get to the finer stuff, it needs to be "pugged" ( applied wet). It is relatively cheap, fairly time consuming, and 100% effective. Look at the rural roads you drive on that have such soft shoulders you sink to your knees if you try to walk on them when they are wet. Generally speaking, it's the supporting limestone layers that make the road hard enough to drive on.

Like I said, though, talk to the guys at the quarry first....Joe


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## Wojo

Figured I'd circle back and let you all know what I wound up doing, and how it is working. Life really had us reeling this past year, with way too much sickness and way too much loss. Before I knew it November had arrived, and I still hadn't done anything with the barn floor. I needed to get something in there before the ground froze, or I'd be dealing with another muddy spring. The solution I went with? It came down to available cash and expediency. 

I had a load of what is locally called road mix delivered, which is a mix of limestone and clay. I laid it into the barn and tamped it, making it about 4 inches thick after tamping. I got that done in November before the snow started flying, and right out of the gate I was impressed. After tamping it down tight it felt as firm as concrete. Throughout fall and winter, it made for a nice floor those times that I had to work on a car, a quad, or the tractor.

After the winter we had up here, this spring has been a good test of how the floor will hold up when the surrounding ground becomes saturated. When it finally started melting, we had three feet of snow on the ground....and then the spring rains started up. I have ponds on the property where there aren't supposed to be ponds...including the area around the barn. The barn floor, though...it remains rock solid. No squish whatsoever. 

I still want to address the drainage issues around the barn, but laying in the road mix provided an immediate fix to my immediate problem...a muddy barn floor.


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## pengyou

If you have that much water, maybe you need to back away from the barn a bit and consider drainage and ditches 30-50 or even 100 feet away from the barn, where it might be easier to divert the water to other places, places where it might be useful and where gravity can do the transportation work for you. It is usually easier to keep water AWAY from something than to get it OUT of it. Once you divert the water, and sometime when the floor in the barn has had time to dry out you can consider other options. I read of a homesteader who compacted the soil in the area he wanted to build a barn (used a big, hydraulic, heavy tool attached to a front loader), then used soil cement (mixture of soil, sand and cement) to provide a durable, flat surface. He also plumbed it for draining.


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