# Continuing Discussion Regarding Public Schools/Child Creativity



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I've been pondering the public school/creativity thread for awhile now, and I'd like to broach another topic along those same lines.

Many people find homeschooled children to be immature, yet I find that a lot of public school children, primarily from secularized families, to be falsely mature. A friend of mine is a single mother with a three year old. This three year old is a bright little girl, but she was potty-trained at age 1 and tying her own shoes by age 2. At 3 she can fix her own lunch. My boys have always taken a long time to potty-train, need help dressing longer, and well, I'm not sure most of the younger ones should even be ALLOWED in the kitchen. They just aren't trustworthy. For a long time I felt that this might reflect on our parenting skills, but later I started to see the trend. It's the kids in daycare who tend to develop these skills faster. It is the latch-key schoolkids who must hone their survival skills sooner. They do this not due to better parenting, but perhaps because _they must take care of themselves sooner_.

Then there's the false maturity that society is pushing down on our children. There's a concentrated attack on childhood by corporations. They want to tap into that teenage market earlier and so they start targeting children younger and younger. I know kids as young as six that are given an allowance to buy makeup and/or clothing. This doesn't benefit the family in any aspect and it simply is a method to take money from our pockets via the easiest and most efficient way ... our children. This is why we turned off the television years ago ... my parents called it the "idiot box". I call it the "propaganda box". 

Anyway, that's my side observation and I welcome discussion on it. Only through frank discussion can we, as parents, hone our concepts and ideas which ultimately leads to better childrearing.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

We homeschool and also have a small farm. In some ways, I think we have purposely allowed dd to remain somewhat immature. At the age of 9 she still has a favorite stuffed animal she likes to keep close, we still do a bedtime routine with Mommy and Daddy, she loves to splash and play in any mud puddle she can find. However, in other ways she is very mature. I can count on her to help work the gates when we are moving animals, to help hold animals requiring medical treatment, to move firewood and do her share of the chores. Just today she did her first craft show where she sold items that she had crafted from her grandma's craft discard bin (Proud Mama here, she made $163!) She made those crafts, dealt with customers, and recorded her profits herself.

I think most children are going to be a mixture of maturity and immaturity. And I think a guiding principle is that their maturity will usually be in the areas we most need it to be for us to function as well as possible as a family. I need farm help and some housework help, so dd is advanced in those areas. Mothers who work away from home probably need their children to be more self sufficient in the area of caring for themselves. I don't really need dd to be all that self sufficient, so we have not stressed those skills. But I doubt many non-farm children are able to sit quietly, bow in hand, waiting to see if a coyote or racoon is coming up to eat any more chickens!


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## Key (Apr 2, 2005)

I haven't found that homeschooled kids are less mature...the Christain aprents I know that are homeschooling ensure thier children undertstand personal repsonsibility while allowing them to still be kids. I don't think a blanket statemet is the way to go though and say a certian group is mroe mature. 
Just a comment about your TV comment....we ditched ours about 5 years ago, and we are so gald we did. We have so much mroe family time, and that immorailty is not invading our houe. I did allow my daughter to read the comics daily....sounds safe enough, huh? Well today, as she is reading them, she comments about the picture of two women kissing. 
We are absolutely repsonsible for our children in all aspects, and the world is banging down our door with trash. Time to invest in a serious deadbolt!


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

I've actually seen the opposite in most homeschool kids. Most of the older homeschool kids seem more mature than their peers in public school. But, I think when they are younger there are some ways they may be more immature. I know that my DS, age 9, is very mature in some ways, but he also still likes to cuddle with me and have us tickled him and read bedtime stories to him. I personally don't see a problem with this. They grow up fast enough without being pushed to grow up before they need to.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Well, take my 11 year old for example. In many terms of maturity, I would consider him far more mature than some of his peers that I've seen. He tends to his chores without being asked, does the work properly, helps with his little brothers without complaining, and spends his time wisely. Yet when we socialize with church friends or the like who have kids his age, he doesn't get along with them super well. He doesn't know who Brittney Spears is, doesn't watch television, doesn't own an XBox, and doesn't know what they're talking about half the time. The other side of that is that they have no interest in the things he likes, could care less about medieval history, goats, chickens, or his burgeoning interest in freshwater ecology. So he always tends to gravitate back towards the adults where there is "real" conversation going on. This leads to the complaint that, as a homeschool kid, he doesn't seem very well socialized. Which I don't get. He fits into the adult conversation nicely, even as an 11 year old.

Maybe I haven't spent enough time on this topic mentally to discuss it yet. This is the first verbalization of this I've done and I don't think I'm explaining myself well. 

To take another similar example ... look at the television shows that are popular (or at least were popular when I gave up television) ... Sienfeld, Friends, Everybody Hates Raymond. I absolutely despised those shows for their portrayal of men. Those were not men, they were overgrown teenagers. Slothful, deceitful, and idiotic ... it was always their wives who had to pull them out of trouble or call them on their bad behavior. They weren't dependable, hardworking, or hardy. Would you loan money to any of them, or call them to help you get your truck out of a ditch, or ask them to take care of your livestock while you were away for a few days? Yet this was society's example to us of what _men_ are. And I saw those men duplicated in coworkers. That wasn't the kind of man I strive to be, and it's certainly not the man I want my young boys to see and emulate. 

I see the same thing in children happening ... there's this false maturity being pushed down to them that isn't reflective of what real maturity is.


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## cindyc (Nov 12, 2005)

I do see your point, I think. Are you trying to say that homeschooling allows your children to be children longer, and so they do not have to "act cool", or "like girls" or "want the latest toy" or whatever when that is not really how they feel. Or maybe they don't feel that way because they are not forced into a social environment where they are told it is the norm to feel that way. At the same time that they are given the right to be "children" and seem inmature, (based on not having the same values as the other kids their age) they are also valued as people, and perhaps are also allowed to think on a higher level, to care about real things (like ecosystems for example) and to participate in the family with meaningful work, which builds REAL maturity and REAL confidence? Am I coming close? 

Cindyc.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I think closer, anyway. I considered this while I was out taking care of the livestock this morning. The goats nodded placidly as I explained it to them, so maybe I'm making better sense now.

Children, like adults, seem to reflect what "society" and the corporate-controlled media want them to be. In the case of young boys it's a little consumer-hoodlum whose toys have simply became more expensive and they become concerned with dress and attitude far earlier than they should. Because our children are heavily insulated from that society and media (as we are ourselves), they don't reflect that and thus seem somewhat more childlike to the outside world.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2007)

"I'm not raising children. I'm raising adults."

That's how I explain the social side of our homeschooling experience. Part of being an adult is having a childhood. How many adult men and women today revert to childish actions when put under pressure? How many men have to have the newest toy at the expense of some bill that needs to be paid? How many women are catty towards other women when someone has something that they want? I firmly believe that if our generation had true childhoods and weren't forced to grow up so fast that we'd have a more relaxed generation that wasn't so greedy and that actually cared about their families and friends. 

So what if my almost 10 year old still believes in Santa? He'll have the rest of his life to know the truth. Right now he's loving the thought and I'm not going to tell him otherwise. It's a lot better than the 10 year olds who believe they need x-boxes and girlfriends to make their lives complete.


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## newatthis (Aug 3, 2006)

I homeschooled my dd10 for 1 1/2 years.(we were in a car accident and I was having problems brain wise with teaching--long story) dd10 is now in 5th grade and cann't believe how the kids act in school. She was with these same kids pre-k through 2nd grade. Most have HUGE attitude problems, act too grown up, etc. Her bff is not her bff anymore etc. I think homeschooling brings a maturity level that "mature" public school children don't have. 

Example: dd10 likes spending time with the teachers and other adults.
the "mature public child" likes make-up, gossip and boys
dd10 would rather plan a way to help animals
the public student could care less about the animals.

Maybe this is just my dd but I have noticed our friends who homeschool also have more mature children than these broken home public school kids.

Now both my dds need to be in public school due to our car accident and I LOVE the staff of their school. All the teachers are very caring. I just don't like the attitudes of the kids.


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## Ashtina98 (Aug 10, 2007)

My dd's are in public school. We plan to homeschool and actually had filled out the paperwork to pull them out but have decided to put it off due to medical issues I am currently dealing with. Dd's are 9 and in the 4th grade, and they hate school, say they don't fit in and only have 1 friend they have anything in common with. The problem is all the girls are into Hannah Montana, makeup, boys, being cool and wearing "cool clothes". The boys keep hounding my dd's that they need to get a boyfriend because everyone has one and pretty much say they won't have any options if they wait. Dd's do not want a boyfriend, they tell them they are too young, do not care about being cool or wearing makeup, they like to play in the puddles after the rain, they love building forts out in the brush and trees, they go out exploring hiding acorns for the squirrels and yes they still believe in santa claus (which they say only 3 other kids in their class do!). Yet, they are very intelligent girls who can carry on an intelligent conversation with adults (with a 9 year old perspective of course) they are very mature and immature at the same time.

I think it really has to do with the parents and what they are teaching their children. I've seen little girls whose mothers have put makeup on them, dolled up their hair and put them in mini skirts when going out. Parents are promoting this behavior or choosing to ignore the influences around their children. I wouldn't say it's a homeschool vs public school issue, it just seems that homeschool parents provide a better influence over their children and are more involved with them which is why they homeschool in the first place. 

Dee


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## mamalisa (Feb 1, 2004)

Ok, but....

Have you ever thought about the ages of the children in the Little House books? They probably weren't more than 5 or 6, and doing chores and watching their little sister. Those kids weren't more than 12 or 13 when they were left for a week when their parents went away, and Laura was teaching at 15.

My non HS kids were very self-sufficient, had little to do with other kids in school d/t not watching TV. My daughter, however, has a passion for fancy clothes and shoes---self-funded, but prior to that carefully purchased out of clothing allowance.

I don't think this has as much to do with where the kids are schooled as to what values are held at home. I got blasted for pleading with HS'ers to incorporate scheduling after an awful weekend with 2 HS kids----don't tar all PS kids with the same brush, either.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

No, certainly not all kids are alike, and it doesn't seem to be a public school thing either. I'm not sure what the cause of it is ... maybe parenting. 

I guess I'm after the root cause of this phenomenon I see in children.


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## Ashtina98 (Aug 10, 2007)

I think alot of it has to do with the mentality of folks today. THINGS seem to be becoming more important, it's all about keeping up with the Jones'. Both parents are working and not always out of necessity, careers take precedence over family. Kids are being rushed from school to daycare to gymnastics to soccer to choir to whatever else parents seem to be the social necessity these days. While trying to keep up appearances of the perfect family, the kids are suffering not getting the time they need from their parents and not being allowed to be kids. That's just my opinion!

Dee


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## Ed K (Oct 24, 2003)

Ernie,

I think your original topic mixes a lot of issues making it hard to respond to

but I'll offer a few opinions


```
Many people find homeschooled children to be immature, yet I find that a lot of public school children, primarily from secularized families, to be falsely mature. A friend of mine is a single mother with a three year old. This three year old is a bright little girl, but she was potty-trained at age 1 and tying her own shoes by age 2.
```
I think potty training and shoe tying are often more biologically driven than society/educational driven although some preschools won't accept children who arent potty trained. 


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At 3 she can fix her own lunch. My boys have always taken a long time to potty-train, need help dressing longer, and well, I'm not sure most of the younger ones should even be ALLOWED in the kitchen. They just aren't trustworthy.
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If you want to you can provide a safe setup for your child to make their own lunch. If you do that they'll probably learn to prepare lunch sooner than if you don't. I don't see that as much of a homeschool/ public school issue either. 


```
For a long time I felt that this might reflect on our parenting skills, but later I started to see the trend. It's the kids in daycare who tend to develop these skills faster. It is the latch-key schoolkids who must hone their survival skills sooner. They do this not due to better parenting, but perhaps because they must take care of themselves sooner.
```
I see your point more here but the issue of whether you trust your kids in the kitchen or not will probably play a bigger role in them being able to fix their lunch than whether they "need" to fix their lunch to survive. My kids could fix themselves lunch at a young age because they seemed to be interested in it and my wife was endlessly patient about allowing them to try and not being fussy about how messy her kitchen became during their learning process. At no time were they forced to prepare their own meals to survive. Like someone else commented in frontier times young children participated in many "adult" chores to help the family survive but that wasn't considered bad or abnormal 


```
Then there's the false maturity that society is pushing down on our children. There's a concentrated attack on childhood by corporations. They want to tap into that teenage market earlier and so they start targeting children younger and younger. I know kids as young as six that are given an allowance to buy makeup and/or clothing. This doesn't benefit the family in any aspect and it simply is a method to take money from our pockets via the easiest and most efficient way ... our children. This is why we turned off the television years ago ... my parents called it the "idiot box". I call it the "propaganda box".
```
We don't have TV either. My oldest son, however, has always been fascinated by sale ads from the newspaper. We had a well stocked library of childrens books but he was interested in having us read ads to him annnoyingly often. He still enjoys reading them today at 13 even though he's not close to being obsessivley consumeristic.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

I went back and reread the op. I think children emulate, and come to value, that to which they are frequently exposed. IMHO, the problem comes in when we allow advertisers, through various media to set our children's interests and behaviors. They do not have our children's developmental, social, or physical wellbeing at heart. I don't really understand why they want our children to take on a veneer of maturity so early in life, but they do, so there must be money in it. However, outward trappings of maturity are NOT the same as inner maturity.

Regarding fixing their own lunches or dressing themselves or whatever at a very early age, I think that is more of a parenting thing. Some parents want or need their children to take personal responsibility very quickly in life. IMO again, I don't think this is a very good option if it can be avoided. I think there are some windows of opportunity in early childhood where children need to be permitted to be childlike in order to develop into well adjusted adults later in life.

I also think maturity and worldliness are two different things. A child can be very mature, but not very worldly (such as my dd), or can be very worldly but not very mature (such as a girl who goes through the motions of having boyfriends at a very young age and yet has not got the maturity to handle a boy/girl relationship).

Family therapist Mary Pipher said, "It becomes clearer and clearer to me that if families just let the culture happen to them, they end up fat, addicted, broke, with a house full of junk, and no time." I believe that it is the media/advertisers that are driving US culture today. And I refuse to let it creep into my family.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Wow. Good discussion. So other people are seeing these things as well ... it's not just me. I'm encouraged. Seems like we're tracking the bear, if not actually putting it in our sights yet.

The second issue I have with this is that we (my household) are not a secular household. We try very hard to hold to biblical principles. However the world is a very secular place and you're going to be mocked, if not downright abused for trying to hold the biblical line in your family. Allowing the television into your home makes it just that much more difficult to hold that line and walk in a proper manner. Maybe some families can balance this, but we couldn't and so the television had to go.


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## dirtundernails (Nov 20, 2006)

Ernie, I follow your thoughts all the way through, and have been discussing the same issue with my DH for years.

I was in day care from infancy up and am a current homeschooler of 5. Gotta chime in here. My take on this is incomplete and I analyze almost daily, so it's nifty to find this thread.

Last night's discussion with my hubby involved the fact that I can't think of a pleasant memory from my childhood. Traumatic social experiences dominate. 
As a child, I felt the need to stand out in the crowd and have special attention paid to me. At a young age, I was going to behave in whatever manner it took to be noticed. Since the caregivers and teachers weren't able to, I turned to the other kids for the warm fuzzies. I didn't get any, because the other kids were trying to receive rather than give, also. I see a setup for a vicious cycle, here. Behavior will get more outrageous in an attempt to get attention, and the only available attention is wondering how to be more noticeable. Keeping in mind Tonya's "I'm raising adults, not children", behaviors will emulate what a child knows of being an adult. If these views were mature and realistic, we would be released into adulthood much younger. Most of the ideas for what adulthood entails do come from TV. We purchased one recently after 3 years without. OMG, I remember why we chose to be without. Good thing I hold the remote! It's usually too late, but I can be a model for conscious avoidance to my kids (oops- children- we have goats) for when they are on their own in this world.

I see the same differences in children kept at home and children who are sent to the institution as I was, and prefer home. I also see more adults acting like children, expecting to grow up and start out having everything their parents earned over 40 years.

in my best Eeyore voice, "thanks for listening"

dun


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## Kee Wan (Sep 20, 2005)

I've followed this thread with no small amount of interest.....

I have a 3-year old, who I fully intend to homeschool - I simply cannot imagine the "socialization" that she will get at school.....

We are not, necessarily, a "Religious" family. However, being Native American, we have a distinct set of cultural, societal and Spiritual moores and norms that the society at large violates at will, constantly, consistantly and with apparent impunity. 

I do not want my child to be "socialized" to a culture where children reign in teh homes, consuming at will, taking and never giving, demanding and disrespecting. My child - at 3, consistantly serves others first, says "yes/no sir/ma'am", does not demand things, does not ask for every toy in the aisle, can make her own lunch/snack, AND clean up after herself, takes her own shower, hangs/folds her own clothes...and the list goes on...she is capable, courteous, bright, interesting, and fun to be around...and I never demanded any of it from her. It comes from not being immersed in a culture where these things are the norm. 

Would I allow a child of mine to tell me (in jest or otherwise) "Eat my shorts!". NO WAY!!! That would earn some rather concrete discipline. Yet - we, as adults, laugh at it when it comes on TV. 

I EXPECT that my children will dress appropriatly....NOT with clevage to their naval, jeans so tight that they "need" to wear thongs to avoid panty lines, skirts so short that they HAVE to cross their legs at the thigh to sit and not show all their secrets to the world. My children do NOT need to have layers showing under layers, "sweaters" that end just above the naval, and emphasize thier "assets". They do NOT need but a couple pair of house moccasins, a pair of tennis shoes, and some winter boots.....perhaps a pair of sandals for summer. These expectations, of normalcy, and decency are NOT upheald at schools. How does ANY parent expect their teenage child to learn anything in an atmosphere of such rife sexuality, sensuality and eroticism??? 

I do NOT expect that my children will learn that the old clothes need to be tossed, simply because they are not "new" anymore - they still function. The "old" cell phone - that works FINE - just does nto have the umpteen-megapixl camers, cannot wash dishes or translate to farsi on the fly..is FINE. It DOES NTO NEED replacing!

yet - EVERY television program only serves to explain to us what we do nto have.....clothing, jewlery, food, wine, medication, the right insurance, the right builder/plummer/electrician/gift card.........

None of them indicate to us that what we have is FINE...FAMILY, FRIENDS, an education, faith, generosity, honor, honesty.......

Television has no place in my home. Public schools with thier complete disreguard for my VALUES, MORALS, BELIEFS have no place in my home. My child is PERFECTLY well acculturated, socialized and educated, and I would have it no other way.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

I totally agree about tv teaching children to want things. For the first several years my dd did not see any tv going into the Christmas season. One year when asked what she wanted for Christmas, she responded that she was getting a little low on Play Doh. The next year she asked for a sailboat for the bath tub. It wasn't that she didn't know what was out there, we shopped in the toy stores when buying gifts for others. She knew about all the different toys, but it never occurred to her to ask for them.

Then Grandma and her satellite tv moved in next door. If we visit one, we see both. That first year, when dd saw her first toy commercial, she put her little hands on her hips and exclaimed, "Well, would you look at that!". That year she asked for everything!

We have since required the tv to be turned off when we visit during the preChristmas season. It was so obvious and dramatic that tv was actually teaching her to ask for things. I have read some articles in advertising trade magazines and they make no bones about how devious and relentless they are about attracting our children's attention and directing their behavior. They spend millions of dollars per year researching what colors, words, pacing, music, etc. to use to get the job done. Chiildren's advertisers have left the political propaganda machine waaay behind when it comes to stratedy and effectiveness. And for that reason, all we have is a monitor hooked up to a VCR/DVD. We watch lots of old movies (just finished Errol Flynn's Robin Hood!) and educational videos from the library, but advertisers are NOT welcome in MY home!


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## zealot (Feb 6, 2006)

Tonya said:


> So what if my almost 10 year old still believes in Santa? He'll have the rest of his life to know the truth. Right now he's loving the thought and I'm not going to tell him otherwise. It's a lot better than the 10 year olds who believe they need x-boxes and girlfriends to make their lives complete.


But the thing is, when kids DO find out, then they wonder, "What ELSE have they been fibbing me about?"


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Kids can tell the difference between you letting them believe in Santa and then lying to them about everything else. That little fairy tale isn't going to unwind the whole ball of yarn that is parenting.

When my oldest boy was 3 he announced that he didn't think Santa Claus was real. I put my paper down and listened to his reasons. He was logical and informed and I finally had to agree that there was no Santa Claus. Later on he explained that to his younger brothers and so none of my household has ever thought Santa Claus was more than an interesting creation, like Tom Sawyer or Cthulhu (the dread Cthulhu!). The kid was born 30 years old and so there's just no fooling him, it seems.

He still falls for the ol' "what's that on your shirt -- ha, got your nose" routine every day, so logic only gets you so far in life.


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## christij (Mar 5, 2006)

I have been following this thread as well and my experiece yesterday in 6th grade would make your head spin. Even as I was talking about how is was disrepectful to talk while another person was talking a kid was repeating me. They will say I have ADHD so I act like this like it was an excuse to disrupte the whole class. And there was more than one of them. And I hear oh it's not uncommon for them to be this way - how do teachers teach with these attitudes? 
Earlier in the week I had a 3rd child say to me Ethan says Santa isn't real - is he real? I didn't know what to say to her, but I had a talk with the boy telling him Santa was being real or not was something to be discussing/arguing about in school. 
The more I sub the more I feel I will be homeschooling my own child. 
As for my own almost 2 yo we watched Frosty on TV the other night and I could tell the commercials were irritating her -- where did Frosty go? 
I like working in the special ed classes but everyone looks at me a little funny when I say I think I want to HS DD even after they complained about their day or the kids or how parents must not be displining thier children.... hello why would I want to subject my child to that enviroment?


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## Cara (May 9, 2002)

Christie, my husband is a ps middle school math teacher. Our littles (8 through 14yo) have never been in the system. He says when people make comments, he responds, "would a mechanic send his car out to someone else or work on it himself?" I didn't have a good experience in the ps and his was much worse, because he's a genius. Why would we put our kids there?


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## christij (Mar 5, 2006)

Cara, that's a great response. I have often thought something along those lines but have yet to say it to anyone other than my husband.


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## okgoatgal2 (May 28, 2002)

my children are public schooled, all 4 of them, mainly b/c my x won't let me homeschool them. i'm a certified teacher, i can teach anything up thru 8th grade, and the maths thru alg 2/geom, according to the state of okla. but he doesn't think i'm able to teach my own kids. anyway.

my oldest, a girl, is 15, 10th grade. she's not big on the animals, but never has been, even as a young child. she's had 1 boyfriend, in 7th, that lasted 2 days. i tell her she's got all the boys running scared, b/c she's a strong minded, vocal child, who's not afraid to state her opinions on anything. she's very mature-gets along great with older adults (like 40+) and young children (2nd grade down) most of the time. helps me around the house, helps lots of other people even more. my mom hurt her back last summer-caitlin stayed and took care of her and her house for a week. cooked and all. 
my son, 13, has a nintendo ds lite that he saved the money for himself. he helps me, when i ask, helps other people, especially at church. he's mature for his age, comparing him to his classmates, who have a "i'm too cool to do anything" attitude. jess will act a clown just because it lightens the mood. he's also immature. chooses the wrong time to act the clown. still loves stuffed animals. loves the animals.
my 10yodd loves hannah montana, girly stuff, etc, but boys are still gross, even tho most of her friends have "boyfriends." she plays with dolls and stuffed animals and shaves her legs. she does pom/cheerleading and loves the animals. 
my 7yo ds thinks some of the girls are cute, but doesn't want a girlfriend. he still likes cars and what not and plays in the mud (all my kids play in the mud, even the 15yo). he reads at a 7th grade level, tests high in math, school is so easy for him it's just sad. he has chores, helps with the animals. 
all kids mature at different rates. i think my 4 are a little more mature than most of their classmates, simply because i require and expect more from them than most parents around here do. but i have some students who've grown up way too quickly and haven't been able to have the childhood they should have. that's sad.


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## lwj2 (Aug 20, 2006)

IMO it's the parents. 

I see this at work all the time. Whiny, demand-it-be-perfect parents have whiny-I-don't-want-to-do-it kids.

Most of these little monsters have no concept of manners. The words "please", "thank you", "ma'am" and "sir" are not part of either their parents' or their vocabularies.

Children are not small adults, they're kids. Like any small creature, they'll push until they're given boundaries. It's the job of a parent to give their kids those boundaries.

Regrettably, but desevedly, most parents these days get a big red "F" on the "parenting" line of the report card.



Ernie said:


> No, certainly not all kids are alike, and it doesn't seem to be a public school thing either. I'm not sure what the cause of it is ... maybe parenting.
> 
> I guess I'm after the root cause of this phenomenon I see in children.


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## NewlandNubians (Jul 10, 2003)

<cry> This is the exact thing I went through in school. Proportedly everyone was "doing it" by age 12, girls usually with a high school boy because the younger boys were too busy trying to light their own farts. Makeup, as near to hooker clothes as you could get were the norm. I went to a "good" suburban school too, not an inner city school. Parents that doll up and hookerize their kids are just (in their way) trying to help their kids fit in and cope. It's truly sad. I didn't fit in real well. I loved my horse, goats, pigs, sheep, etc. and I talked about them which made me an OUTSIDER. I did not really care who was "doing" who or who wanted to do so and so. I did have the displeasure of having my breasts touched by another student when I was in the 9th grade, that was fun. 

This is from a girl's point of view. My husband has talked about the constant "posturing" and fights in school. My male cousin who is not a fighter (this happened to me too) was forced to commit physical violence to keep someone off his back. I am 30 so I graduated a little more than 10 years ago and I'm afraid things probably haven't changed after seeing the Bratz dolls...

All of you who are homeschooling are doing your part to keep your kids from this mess. Those that can't homeschool, hats off to you for putting up with that crap. I'm sorry if you find yourself having to spend so much time every day "desmutting" your kids every day. 




Ashtina98 said:


> My dd's are in public school. We plan to homeschool and actually had filled out the paperwork to pull them out but have decided to put it off due to medical issues I am currently dealing with. Dd's are 9 and in the 4th grade, and they hate school, say they don't fit in and only have 1 friend they have anything in common with. The problem is all the girls are into Hannah Montana, makeup, boys, being cool and wearing "cool clothes". The boys keep hounding my dd's that they need to get a boyfriend because everyone has one and pretty much say they won't have any options if they wait. Dd's do not want a boyfriend, they tell them they are too young, do not care about being cool or wearing makeup, they like to play in the puddles after the rain, they love building forts out in the brush and trees, they go out exploring hiding acorns for the squirrels and yes they still believe in santa claus (which they say only 3 other kids in their class do!). Yet, they are very intelligent girls who can carry on an intelligent conversation with adults (with a 9 year old perspective of course) they are very mature and immature at the same time.
> 
> I think it really has to do with the parents and what they are teaching their children. I've seen little girls whose mothers have put makeup on them, dolled up their hair and put them in mini skirts when going out. Parents are promoting this behavior or choosing to ignore the influences around their children. I wouldn't say it's a homeschool vs public school issue, it just seems that homeschool parents provide a better influence over their children and are more involved with them which is why they homeschool in the first place.
> 
> Dee


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## WildernesFamily (Mar 11, 2006)

Ernie said:


> No, certainly not all kids are alike, and it doesn't seem to be a public school thing either. I'm not sure what the cause of it is ... maybe parenting.
> 
> I guess I'm after the root cause of this phenomenon I see in children.


Ernie,

Your questions is something I pondered a long time ago.

Let me offer this and see if it helps....

I think that there is a HUGE difference between being "mature" and being "grown up."

My oldest DD is 13. Her peers (from what we notice at church) are very "grown up." They all wear a full face of make-up and clothes that no young lady should be wearing (IMVHO.) They certainly seem much more sophisticated than my daughter and she has a hard time trying to fit in with them (there are one or two girls who are exceptions.) For all their being "grown up" these girls act terribly immature compared to my DD. They will sit around giggling and then run and hide from the boys and make fun of and taunt my daughter when she is having an intelligent conversation about playing the piano with a young man. We recently had our church play and my DD was asked to help out with the younger children, prompting them with their lines if need be and controlling them when they weren't on the stage. She was mature and responsible enough to do an excellent job at this, where many of her peers would have failed... and yet her peers consider her "immature" because she doesn't have the street smarts or dress like they do.

Now I really enjoyed my childhood. I played with dolls until a very good 13 years old and I wasn't interested in acting "grown up." I don't know what it was that made me that way, because I differed a lot from some of my sisters... I guess I wasn't too influenced by peer pressure from my school friends (I was public schooled) either. I did my thing and enjoyed being a child.

When I was in my twenties people were always surprised to find out my age because they thought I was WAY older because of how mature I was compared to other people my age... who seemed to be trying to recapture their childhood in their twenties, or trying to "find themselves" or whatever. Maybe they didn't take the time to enjoy their real childhood :shrug: .

So again, a child who is very "grown up" can be very immature, and a child who doesn't feel the need to act "grown up" can be a very mature child... and in my opinion a child who relishes and fully enjoys his/her childhood will result in a more mature child.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Some really good responses. Thank you. I feel like maybe I'm doing ok with my own kids and I'm not too worried about them not fitting in with the rest of the maladjusted world.


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## Kee Wan (Sep 20, 2005)

Somewhere in here factor capability, self discipline, self control and indulgence. I know that teaching these things (since I was raised in a rather "child-centered" home - and struggle to teach my child the values, norms, and skills that my parents never demanded of me... and to some extent I still lack) can be hard - especially at 3 years old. It's hard for me to know what is an "appropriate" expectation for a child... when I look out at the world at large and see what children do for "fun" these days - and what they don't do for chores, or help about the house.... To some extent, I let my child do what she is capable, while making it clear that she help out and be a functional and integral part of the home - sometimes, though, I feel like I should be expecting more - others that I expect too little - when compared with other children her age....

Comments?


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## Genevieve M. (Nov 14, 2006)

Ernie, I imagine you are doing a great job with your kids. My oldest went to one semester of 1st grade. My other 3 children have not ever been in a traditional classroom. I remember when they were younger how much I would wonder if I was doing the right thing, and if they would turn out alright.

My oldest will turn 14 this summer. She takes care of all of the animals on our farm without being reminded. She will also spend an entire day building block cities with her brother, or building a fort in the woods. She doesn't want make-up, or a cell phone or a boyfriend. Her favorite outfit is her Carhartt overalls. 

The kids say that not watching T.V. has had even more impact on them than not going to school. I still read out loud to them every day, and they treasure that time.

I thought you might like to read the speech she is giving in church Sunday. She still has some polishing to do, but it really proves to me that even though she is silly and happy and young acting. There is no way she is immature!

Punctuation might not copy from Word

Living the A.D. Life


In todayâs Epistle, Paul reminds the Corinthians to âbe in agreement, and let there be no divisions among you.â His words are as important to Christian today as they were when they were written. We can see the roots of divisions everywhere we look.
Between 8 and 10 B.C., a Trojan prince (Paris) ran off with the King of Spartaâs beautiful wife, Helen. Furious, the king, Menelaus got his brother, (Agamemnon) the high king of Greece to send all of the minor kings, and renowned heroes to bring Helen back. After ten years, the king of Ithaca (Odysseus) constructed a wooden horse and, won the war. 
This is Homerâs epic poem, The Iliad, which was written over 2,000 years ago, and has influenced almost every one who has read it, including Alexander the Great and Thomas Jefferson. It has been said that the world of divine knowledge came through the Hebrews and human knowledge through the Greeks. . 


The Trojan War is widely considered to be one of the greatest conflicts of all time, but is it really a greater conflict than the ongoing struggles faced by Christians today? Remember the Scripture in Ephesians which states: âFor our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.â


Before the Trojan War, the goddess of chaos Eris or Discordia in Latin threw down a golden apple inscribed, âFor the fairest goddessâ. All three of the major goddesses wanted it, so Zeus let Pairs choose between the goddesses Aphrodite (the goddess of beauty and love) who offered him the most beautiful lady on earth, Hera (the queen goddess of power) who offered him control of all Asia, and Athena (the goddess of war and wisdom) who offered to make him the wisest General ever known. He foolishly handed the apple to Aphrodite. His choice cost him his life, and destroyed his kingdom.

Wasnât the whole point of the Golden apple competition and division? Are you ever faced with âGolden Applesâ in your life? Do you ever feel the urge to judge someone else? Do you ever feel judged? Does God ask us to judge others, or is He going to judge everyone Himself? Does God care what kind of car we drive, how much land we own, or what kind of clothes we wear? Does God really care who receives the golden apple? How do we know what choices God wants us to make? Well, He gave us specific instructions in the Ten Commandments and in Christâs summary of the law. It is very simple, really. We are to ââLove the Lord our God with all our heart and with all our soul and with all our mind and to âLove our neighbor as ourselves.â 


During the long war, Menelaus (the king of Sparta) and Achilles (a renowned hero) both received Trojan slave girls as plunder. The god Apollo made Menelaus give his girl back, so he took Achillesâ girl as his own. This so enraged Achilles that he refused to fight; instead he sat on the beach watching the war. Are we only loyal to our own desires as Achilles was? Are we with him on the beach watching others wage Godâs battles? Wouldnât it have been better if he knew and followed the words of King David who wrote: âHow good and pleasant it is when brothers live together in unity.â

Achilles became a deserter because he did not want to lose face. Are we too proud to live for God today? Do we care more about our image and reputation than Godâs commandments? What would people think of us if we refused to put the commercial gods of this world before Christ? What would our friend think if we refused to lie and cheat, and disobey our parents? Are we breaking commandments to save face like Achilles?


At the end of the war, Odysseus constructed a gigantic wooden horse in which twelve men lay. The never suspecting Trojans dragged the horse into their mighty walls. That night the twelve Greeks inside the horse came out to open the gate. The Greeks killed every Trojan, and burned the city to the ground. Just like the Trojans, we invite in our own destruction. It is waiting at the gate, and we drag it into our homes and lives. How do we know if a gift is from God, or just a trick sent to defeat us? Philippians 4:8 says, âFinally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.â

This all happened just ten years before Christâs birth. A.D. actually stands for the Latin phrase "anno domini" which means "in the year of our Lord." So we should have left the wild, pagan B.C. behind and entered into a Christ based A.D. Many of us are still living the B.C. life. To get into the A.D. life, we must make every decision based on Christ and his teachings. Just because there arenât colossal white stone temples on every street corner doesnât mean that these gods arenât still around. Although we donât go to the temples to worship these ancient Greek gods, and we donât call them Aphrodite or Hera or Eris, we still know these so called âgodsâ. We see them every day. Are you like Aphrodite, worshiping looks and beauty? Do you know anyone like Hera who places power and jealousy above all else? What about âErisâ with her chaos and âgolden apples.â She is alive and well in Cypress, Texas. 

We are in a modern A.D. 2008, so why do we STILL have these deities? Why canât we break away from these gods and live the A.D. life? Donât worship these B.C. gods, for they can only bring false and destructive âgifts.â Instead worship the A.D. God, and his son Jesus Christ for they alone can bring the true gift; salvation. Remember Romans 6:23 which states âFor the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.â


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Wow, I dig that. She's quite the orator.


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## NewlandNubians (Jul 10, 2003)

They may or may not fit in, but hopefully they will give some positive adjustment to the maladjusted people <grin>. Better to not fit in anyways than to conform to evil. For those of us who believe in the Bible, many good people didn't ever fit in. Why do so many feel their kids need to, at an early age, be exposed to the bad things that are out there? Geez, I say keep them away from evil as long as you can because once they're out of the house they're going to be, for the most part, out of your direct intervention. At that point you just have to believe in their raising! I don't believe the theory that kids who are not allowed to deviate will go wild once away from their parents, I've never seen any properly raised kid really and truly do that, and if they did it was a half-hearted attempt and didn't last long. I guess the biggie for me would be to make absolutely sure when my kids are at the age when they start noticing the other sex that they understand that babies are forever if you know what I mean. But my son is only two <smile>.



Ernie said:


> Some really good responses. Thank you. I feel like maybe I'm doing ok with my own kids and I'm not too worried about them not fitting in with the rest of the maladjusted world.


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