# Grass fed beef question



## Dieselrider (Jul 8, 2008)

I have seen on here where some are raising grass fed only beef. What is the advantage to that over grain and grass fed beef? I have raised beef for several years and always suplemented some grain into their diet. What am I missing out on?


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

I'm experimenting with it myself and so far the only advantage I can see is NO FEEDBILL! I'll be able to compare it for taste and tenderness at the end of summer.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

It doesn't have to be either - or. My favorite beef is grass fed until framed up, then 90 days on full feed ground ear corn while still on pasture.


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

Google grass fed beef. There are multiple *health* benefits, optimal lvls of cla, correct ratio of two of the other fatty acids, off the top of my head. Real grass finished beef is heart healthy, grain fed beef is the opposite. 
In stockman grass farmer or acres usa I read that the grass fed benefits decrease measurably if the animal consumes any grain at any time (don't shoot the messenger, and no I can't look it up, threw all the stacks of back issues of the mags away, sorry.)


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

tinknal said:


> It doesn't have to be either - or. My favorite beef is grass fed until framed up, then 90 days on full feed ground ear corn while still on pasture.



This negates the positive health benefits of grass-fed...


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

ErinP said:


> This negates the positive health benefits of grass-fed...


I don't give a flying fig. I want tasty beef.


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## oneokie (Aug 14, 2009)

Strictly grass fed beef will have a brighter red color, and have a sharper taste.

Grain fed beef will have a more muted red color, and a milder taste.


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## wstevenl (Mar 26, 2008)

Our 100% grass fed Dexter beef has been very good tasting (not too strong) pretty tender, and healthy. The reason I'm raising it is that I don't have to use GMO feed for the cows and the health benefits of the beef. I don't see a big enough difference in taste to choose one over the other. To me, the issue is more that it is not easy to finish on grass. The pasture has to be very good and you need to be rotating. 

I see no reason to finish on corn but alot of corn fields would have to be planted in pasture to finish beef if we stopped finishing on corn.


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## backachersfarm (Jun 14, 2005)

You can look at the Weston Price founation to find some info on grass fed meats and the benefits they support.


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## wally (Oct 9, 2007)

I would like some info also, my first time to have beef cattle, one on the bottle and 2 -250 LBS...been feeding grain but cut way back and the hay is beeing eaten. As I understand the grass (hay) is the best way to go. Iam rasing 3 angus, 2 heifers and 1 steer. Small heifer is 5 weeks old and seems to enjoy the hay. any help would be great


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

The big benefit of grass fed is that if you can talk folks into buying it for twice the price of regular beef with less than half the inputs, you'll make money.
Any nutritional benefits are shaky....if diet was the answer to cholesterol we wouldn't need statins, diet and exercise would be all we need.


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## Onthebit (Dec 3, 2008)

Eat Wild

If you are one of the people who don't believe in the benefits of grass fed over feedlot beef then you are still farming with your head in the ground.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Grass fed beef has less fat. Lean beef is healthier. Cattle are fed grain as a way to increase marbling and marbling affects the tenderness of each cut.

If you want less fat you can trim the cuts or limit protein in the cow's diet. 

Most people prefer the moistness and flavor that grain feeding promotes. If you get used to the taste of non-grain fed beef, you won't even taste the difference after awhile.

Young beef is most tender. Growing a cow to market size can be done quickest with grain, allowing a cow to be butchered at a younger age.

I grow both hay and oats. For awhile I was feeding hay free choice and marketing the grain. I discovered for the feed value and costs that I might as well feed more grain and market more hay.

Some grass fed beef advocates promote it beyond common sense. It becomes a religion, like free range chickens, Vegan, raw milk and open pollinated crops. It becomes something you are doing and you cannot rest until everyone else agrees.


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## Onthebit (Dec 3, 2008)

I grew up on grain fed and spent a good part of adulthood eating feedlot beef. We fed our first few steers grain. They were ok. Then we decided to kill one that was strictly grass fed and he was delicious. Grass fed needs to be cooked differently than grain fed to NOT lose the moisture. I wouldn't buy another chunk of feedlot or grain fed again. If you read that link you will find that there are a lot more good things about grass fed than just leaner. Besides, my steaks were well marbled.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

Along with the health benefits of grass-fed beef for humans, it is also easier on the cattle. Ruminants are not designed to eat high levels of grain, which is converted to lactic acid and burns holes in their rumen, allowing bacteria to enter the bloodstream and infect the liver, which then requires antibiotics to fight. Here is a summary from the Journal of Animal Science (not PETA). Note the list of antibiotics used to control the disease.

http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/short/76/1/287


> Liver abscesses in slaughtered beef cattle result from aggressive grain-feeding programs. The incidence, averaging from 12 to 32% in most feedlots, is influenced by a number of dietary and management factors. Liver abscesses represent a major economic liability to producers, packers, and ultimately consumers. Besides liver condemnation, economic impacts include reduced feed intake, reduced weight gain, decreased feed efficiency, and decreased carcass yield. Fusobacterium necrophorum, a member of the ruminal anaerobic bacterial flora, is the primary etiologic agent. Actinomyces pyogenes is the second most frequently isolated pathogen. Ruminal lesions resulting from acidosis generally are accepted as the predisposing factors for liver abscesses. F. necrophorum possesses or produces a number of virulence factors that participate in the penetration and colonization of the ruminal epithelium and subsequent entry and establishment of infection in the liver. However, only a few virulence factors have been characterized well. Control of liver abscesses in feedlot cattle generally has depended on the use of antimicrobial compounds. Five antibiotics (i.e., bacitracin methylene disalicylate, chlortetracycline, oxytetracycline, tylosin, and virginiamycin) are approved for prevention of liver abscesses in feedlot cattle. Tylosin is the most effective and the most commonly used feed additive. Tylosin feeding reduces abscess incidence by 40 to 70%. The mode of action of antibiotics in preventing liver abscesses is believed to be via inhibition of ruminal F. necrophorum. Protective immunity against F. necrophorum induced by a variety of antigenic components has ranged from ineffectual to significant protection.


Note above, the only concern is economic losses. How about the animal? Here are the symptoms of liver abscesses from the Merck Veterinary Manual (not PETA):

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/22840.htm


> Detailed clinical examination may show periodic fever, inappetence, and evidence of pain when pressure is applied to the xiphisternum and posterior rib cage on the right side. Grunting and other signs of pain may occur with movement or when the animal lies down.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Onthebit said:


> Eat Wild
> 
> If you are one of the people who don't believe in the benefits of grass fed over feedlot beef then you are still farming with your head in the ground.


If you are one of the people who are sticking thier nose into my dinner plate you are the enemy of self sufficiency and freedom.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

DJ in WA said:


> Along with the health benefits of grass-fed beef for humans, it is also easier on the cattle. [/url]


Doesn't really matter. My cattle are all suffering from a fatal condition. It's called "tastiness".


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Some grass fed beef advocates promote it beyond common sense. It becomes a religion, like free range chickens, Vegan, raw milk and open pollinated crops. It becomes something you are doing and you cannot rest until everyone else agrees.


Amen! Evangelical food NAZIs not only want what they want, they DEMAND that you want what they want.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

when I see grass fed beef hamburger selling for 5 bucks a pound I know it's a scam.


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## Onthebit (Dec 3, 2008)

tinknal said:


> Amen! Evangelical food NAZIs not only want what they want, they DEMAND that you want what they want.


Tink, I don't really give a flying grape what you eat. You have been presented with scientific evidence which is contrary to what you believe and so be it. The world is flat-go find a place to jump off!


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Onthebit said:


> Tink, I don't really give a flying grape what you eat. You have been presented with scientific evidence which is contrary to what you believe and so be it. The world is flat-go find a place to jump off!


Show me a single bit of scientific evidence that I have contradicted. 

The only belief that matters here is personal preference. I've never told you or anyone else what they should or should not prefer, I don't care what you like, and I can't for the life of me understand why you care what I like.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Well, we can beat this horse till it ain`t got any flesh left on it. I to don`t think much of all grass fed beef, there is a big difference in feed lot beef, farm corn fed beef, and grass fed beef. Someone said they don`t feed grain because they don`t want the GMO corn in them. My corn has no gmo in it, mine is open polinated, organic corn. My cows, calves and steers love it, and I to think it smells much better than regular corn. Now as far as health goes, I know alot of old timers that have fed cattle over the years, that keep a steer to butcher for themselves and live to be a ripe old age. My Father included who will be 88 this august, I to think it is preferance, if that is what you like go for it. I don`t know about you guys, but 100,000,000 deer eating corn out of the fields tell me something also. Thanks Marc


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## backachersfarm (Jun 14, 2005)

Feeding grass to your animals not onlly makes the animal less fatty...it changes the type of fat the animal develops. This is why they say it is healthier to eat. The same goes for milk and butter from grass fed dairy cows. Anyone who says it doesn't matter if an animal spends it's life here on earth in misery.....even if their short life is just for the feeding of some insensitive jerk...is just that...a Jerk.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

WOW. I can`t believe what I just read from backachers. If I didn`t feed grain to my dairy cows during the winter , you guys would turn me in to the humane society for not taking care of my animals. My cows need more to eat than just old grass hay up here on the cold, white, tundra in northern Illinois. For three months it has been nothing but cold,white and nasty here, you think a cow that is milking is going to give any milk without more to eat than grass hay you have got alot to learn about the world. I like my cows very much, and I feed grain because I want them around here for a long time, grass ain`t going to get them to spring without grain. period. marc


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

> it doesn't matter if an animal spends it's life here on earth in misery



You need to lay off the peta fueled guilt trip. Nobody here is running a feedlot. And a few aren't going to agree with your thinking no matter how they raise their cattle. Notice "their" not your.....


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

backachersfarm said:


> Feeding grass to your animals not onlly makes the animal less fatty...it changes the type of fat the animal develops. This is why they say it is healthier to eat. The same goes for milk and butter from grass fed dairy cows. Anyone who says it doesn't matter if an animal spends it's life here on earth in misery.....even if their short life is just for the feeding of some insensitive jerk...is just that...a Jerk.


You are making a HUGE, inaccurate and down right stupid assumption that the simple act of feeding grain results in a "life of misery".


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Oh, I forgot to mention, this is an emotional issue for some folks.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Oh, I forgot to mention, this is an emotional issue for some folks.


Yeah, I agree. Peta and their ilk are not happy practicing their religion in peace. They feel the need to cram it down everyone else's throats


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Good Grief people!
Its like this, cows are ruminants, not built to eat grain more than a small percentage of their diet. LOTS of grain causes all kinds of health issues and altercations in the quality and nutrients in the meat. Strictly grass-fed beef is redder, leaner, less marbled, yet more tender. Grass is a natural tenderizer. Feedlot cattle, whom are very suseptible to e-coli in the meat, when they are taken off grain and fed strictly hay or grass for a week, the chances of e-coli decreases something like 90%.

Yes dairy cattle need a protien supplement to produce well, but thats what happens when man screws with genetics.

we have hereford, angus, highland, longhorn, and pinzgauer. They do fabulous on all grass. Our only feed bill is the cost of harvesting the hay.
The meat is lean, blood red, tender, and people love it. We dont over charge for it, and I wouldn't want it any other way. Some people like greasy beef, some dont.

The grand champion steer at the 4-h fair last year was an angus. Looked like a giant black pig on stick legs. Corn fed for the rate of gain win. Made me want to puke. But boy was he shiny. All that fat.

The reason the older people in their 80's and 90's are still fine has nothing to do with corn fed beef. Its because as children, while they were growing, they were not exposed to foods full of chemicals.
How you eat as a child sets the stage for your health for the rest of your life.


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## Dieselrider (Jul 8, 2008)

Here is a Time magazine article on the subject. It brings up some very interesting data for grass fed beef but, I can see a downside in that it suggests taking three to four years to fatten a beef on just grass. That's a long time between meals. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1200759,00.html

I have always pastured my animals in the summer and given just a bit of grain each day. Mostly so if the animals were to get out of the fence, I could get their attention by rattling the bucket. I do not have a feedlot style system here. I have five paddocks and rotate the animals every 10 days in the summer. Then clip the pasture they just came off of and let it re grow for 40 days. This in addition to feeding a couple pounds of grain per animal per day. They get all the hay they want. The only difference in the summer is they are not getting the hay and they are eating grass. I can usually get a nice fat animal in 14-18 month time frame. Unless I get some info to convince me there is a great advantage to go grass only, I will just stick to what I am doing. They are getting grain but not a lot.
I didn't mean to start any arguments on the subject.:nerd:


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> Feedlot cattle, whom are very suseptible to e-coli in the meat, when they are taken off grain and fed strictly hay or grass for a week, the chances of e-coli decreases something like 90%.


Who here is suggesting that anyone feed like in a feedlot? There is a difference between supplementing pasture or hay with grain and full feed grain in feedlot conditions. Sanitary processing conditions and processing animals individually virtually eliminated the risk of e.coli contamination.


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## Dieselrider (Jul 8, 2008)

Lonely farm girl, you have a nice web site.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

tinknal said:


> Doesn't really matter. My cattle are all suffering from a fatal condition. It's called "tastiness".


No, not that! 

My last grass fed beef was a disaster... I 'lived' with my mistake, by eating it... ended up chopping the befreakus out of it, trying to tenderize the shoe leather... in hindsight I should have took all of the steaks out of the freezer, slightly defrosted it, and ground it into hamburger.

Agree with whoever it was that said it was all about 'religion'.

I eat to live. The better it tastes, the better I live. 

If I want healthy, I'll eat gruel.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh here we go again!!!!!!!

Eat what you want. For me and my family it is corn finished beef, we enjoy the juiciness and flavor. My father feed Highlands on pasture and hay only, we don't like the flavor of his beef.

Jim


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Modern meat processing methods have probably helped the grass fed crowd. Beef used to be shipped in the form of swinging carcasses. The beef was aged in transport and was good beef. Around 30 years ago they started shipping boxed beef. The beef was sealed in plastic and shipped stewing in it's own blood. I can tell the difference and I don't like it, but if you were raised eating this swill then grass fed probably tastes normal to you.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

"Grain is un-natural for cattle"
Think back to the days before cattle were domesticated. While these ancestors are geneticly tied to modern cows, there is a great difference in the way they look, the way they move and the way they eat.

I don't care how much e coli is in my cow's poop. I don't care how much e coli is in your cow's poop.

Any time you have many cows in a small space, you'll have lots of poop. I see that every time I move 20 feeders in my stock trailer. 

Confinement setups can contribute to e coli in the cows digestive system. Not desireable. Pasture fed cattle can injest (from the grass) worms and grubs that live in the cow's organs. Not desireable.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

tinknal said:


> Modern meat processing methods have probably helped the grass fed crowd. Beef used to be shipped in the form of swinging carcasses. The beef was aged in transport and was good beef. Around 30 years ago they started shipping boxed beef. The beef was sealed in plastic and shipped stewing in it's own blood. I can tell the difference and I don't like it, but if you were raised eating this swill then grass fed probably tastes normal to you.


Grass or grain fed any meat will taste better then what comes out of the store.


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## Onthebit (Dec 3, 2008)

I am wondering if the grass fed taste difference (good/bad) might have to do with the breed. I only started eating grass fed a couple years ago from our own. They are Dexter and we wait til they are over 24 months old. The last one hung for 17 days and it was so tasty. I gave a couple steaks to a die hard feedlot man because he argued that grass fed was horrid tasting and tough. He had to admit though that it was tender and 'surprisingly tasty' (his words)

My sister had eaten grass fed Angus once and didn't like it. BUT she now buys 1 Dexter steer a year from me. So .......


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## wstevenl (Mar 26, 2008)

Onthebit, 
I agree, there could be a difference with breed but I'm sure the grass fed steak I had at Harry Carrays in Chicago and the American Grass Fed steaks I had in Missouri weren't anything but commercial Angus or black baldies and they were great. 

I think that the difference is that a "grass finished" is not just a cow pulled of the pasture and butchered. The animal has to be gaining on good pasture, most likely being rotated daily (or close) to great pasture. I've had locals tell me that they threw away a heifer that they butchered straight off pasture..... just boggles my mind when our steer was so great but again, he was being rotated daily and was gaining well when he was butchered. He was also hung for 21 days. 

I believe people when they say they've had bad grass fed beef but I don't think that means that they wouldn't like it when it was done right.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I wasn't insinuating anyone here does the feedlot bit, I was simply relaying a piece of information I happened to have.
Thanks for the compliment Diesel.

texican, I wonder what breed of animal you ate? I think it is a breed thing. Those breeds that have been 'grained to death' for so long, the genetics just arent there. 
when we butcher for ourselves, we always keep the bull. People cant believe we dare eat grass-fed bull meat. its going to be sooo tough. well, I pan fry the steaks and you can cut them with a fork. usually the bull is at least 4 years old. Same with old cow, plenty tender.

It doesnt surprise me LazyJ that you didn't like the highland meat. If you really enjoy the fattier flavor of corn fed, than you would probably find highland a bit lacking. You have to cook it a bit differently.

it does take a bit longer to finish them. We do usually let our steers go three years, but that is ok. quality over quantity. Although, that is a two-edged sword. we really could use some more land...


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

> Originally Posted by DJ in WA
> Along with the health benefits of grass-fed beef for humans, it is also easier on the cattle. [/url]
> Tinknal:
> Doesn't really matter. My cattle are all suffering from a fatal condition. It's called "tastiness".


Tinknal, most normal people would read this and conclude that you do not care about animal welfare. We can't raise the animal welfare issue without people claiming we're with PETA or laying on guilt trips. Apparently you think it is inappropriate to ever question how we treat animals.

Yes, one does not have to feed grain like a feedlot, but most cattle are fed grain that way, which is why I presented the picture of the most common practice. If one is comparing grass fed vs grain fed, they ought to know the most common way of feeding grain.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

DJ in WA said:


> Yes, one does not have to feed grain like a feedlot, but most cattle are fed grain that way, which is why I presented the picture of the most common practice. If one is comparing grass fed vs grain fed, they ought to know the most common way of feeding grain.


How silly of me. I thought we were responding to the OP. not Cargil...... :shrug:


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## Shagbarkmtcatle (Nov 1, 2004)

I' m not sure that breed has much to do with it. We raise and sell and eat ourselves, Angus, Simmental and AngusxSimmental crosses on grass. They are delicious. And we have been selling them long enough to get repeat customer's so they must like grass-fed too. 

We used to raise them on grain. Too expensive to do it that way for us. Grass-fed beef should be slow cooked. And eaten more rare than grainfed. But that suits us and apparently lots of others. We can't keep up with the demand. 

We also raise and sell grass-fed poultry. Again, can't keep up with the demand. I need to grow twice as much this year as last year. But last year was my second year and I was trying out different breeds of chicken. Now, I did find the Cornish x to be better for that than the ones I raised the year before. 
But with beef, we haven't found any difference in the breeds for taste. We have one guy here who milks grass-fed Jerseys and sells the Jersey steers for grass-fed beef. His custome'rs seem to like them.


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## Onthebit (Dec 3, 2008)

You are right...a lot has to do with the cooking process. It should be seared first and eaten medium rare to rare. 

Some people like to cook the beef out of their steaks....and then smother it with ketchup or some other condiment to smother the yuckiness and moisten it back up. Those people need to go buy the feedlot beef or better yet why waste the money there....buy pork and kill it the same way!


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

The organic store in this area milks grass-fed jersys also. they gie 2 pounds of organic oats per cow per day. and they raise all the steers and sell in their little store. they have an enormous customer base, but it all started with the milk I am sure.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Onthebit said:


> You are right...a lot has to do with the cooking process. It should be seared first and eaten medium rare to rare.
> 
> Some people like to cook the beef out of their steaks....and then smother it with ketchup or some other condiment to smother the yuckiness and moisten it back up. Those people need to go buy the feedlot beef or better yet why waste the money there....buy pork and kill it the same way!


Pretty idiotic post, even for you. As far as I'm concerned a little marinating (good grain fed beef mind you), and I'm good to go. I'll go as far as a challenge. I'll eat grain fed beef and you eat grass fed beef......................... raw. Heck, I'll even let you cook your beef.


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

It's been interesting, though predictable, to watch this thread deteriorate.
As far as eating raw beef, I've been known to, with garlic and a little shoyu. Raw grain fed beef is disgusting - greasy and fatty. Raw naturally fed beef is clean and inoffensive.
I personally could care less what you choose to eat, go have a tub o lard for all I care. Really.
I do feel that if I have knowledge pertaining to health that it's my obligation to share it. Whether the information is put to use or not is not my business.


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## Onthebit (Dec 3, 2008)

tinknal said:


> Pretty idiotic post, even for you. As far as I'm concerned a little marinating (good grain fed beef mind you), and I'm good to go. I'll go as far as a challenge. I'll eat grain fed beef and you eat grass fed beef......................... raw. Heck, I'll even let you cook your beef.


No fear here on eating mine raw as we kill our own and know it isn't contaminated. Have fun taking a chance on your feed lot beef though!


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Onthebit said:


> No fear here on eating mine raw as we kill our own and know it isn't contaminated. Have fun taking a chance on your feed lot beef though!


Once again, who is talking about feedlot beef? Do you always change the subject when you cannot counter an argument?


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Cliff said:


> I personally could care less what you choose to eat, go have a tub o lard for all I care. Really.


Oh wow! How mature of you..............


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## Onthebit (Dec 3, 2008)

tinknal said:


> Oh wow! How mature of you..............


Is there an ignore button?


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## Onthebit (Dec 3, 2008)

Cliff said:


> It's been interesting, though predictable, to watch this thread deteriorate.
> As far as eating raw beef, I've been known to, with garlic and a little shoyu. Raw grain fed beef is disgusting - greasy and fatty. Raw naturally fed beef is clean and inoffensive.
> I personally could care less what you choose to eat, go have a tub o lard for all I care. Really.
> I do feel that if I have knowledge pertaining to health that it's my obligation to share it. Whether the information is put to use or not is not my business.


What is shoyu? Did you mean soya? I want to try your methods...I eat it raw with chopped garlic, pepper, onion salt and some lemon.......


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## SuperDog (Mar 16, 2005)

I am sometimes amazed at how these threads go.... "My beef is better than your beef".... Yeah? Well my dad can beat up your dad!!!


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## wally (Oct 9, 2007)

The chevy/ford debate continues


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## Dieselrider (Jul 8, 2008)

wally said:


> The chevy/ford debate continues


yeah, makes me sorry I asked a question. Sorry to the innocents.


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## newminifarmer (Jun 22, 2008)

Yep. It's right up there with the 2nd amendment (guns) and gay marriage. Sheesh! 
Well, here's one more opinion. Yes, opinion. Nobody has all the answers. I've had great grain fed beef, both store bought and privately purchased. I've had great grassfed beef, bought from local farmers. I've also had the most disgusting beef you'd ever wish you hadn't eaten, and yes, both grain and grassfed. I personally feel that slaughter and hanging 
have alot to do with flavor and tenderness. A smaller processor that may let the carcass cool down a bit slower and hang it a bit longer can have a superior product to the more rapid industrial model of kill-pack-ship-sell. But, grassfed, to me, has a deeper, more complex flavor, than you're average grain fed animal. ( Think dry-aged steak versus wet-pack. a less moisture=more flavor thing. But don't try to cook it past medium rare.) 
Having just recieved my first home grown grassfed (almost) beef back from the butcher, I find it moist, tender, and flavorful. Is there an advantage to grass over grain? It depends on what you like. I really hate venison. But like grassfed beef, goat, lamb, etc... It really is all a matter of personal taste and upbringing. Right up there with things like chili (I put it over spaghetti, and it better have cocoa in it.), and the coke/pepsi thing. Is it "cheaper" to raise on grass? My dexter cost me $1,076 from purchase to package, which was $4.10/lb. Not too cheap, but I know everything he ate, and that I'm going to eat. If you have the room and the time, I say try it on a small scale. Raise 2 steers, send them to the same butcher at the same time and find out. personally, I like just about any beef that's raised outside with pasture access, whether it's strickly grass, with a handful of grain now and then(like mine), or with free access to all the corn they want. Hey, I like grassfed, but I'm not a prude about it! Good beef is good beef! Karla


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Onthebit said:


> Is there an ignore button?


Sure. People who cannot debate in a mature manner use it all the time.


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## Onthebit (Dec 3, 2008)

newminifarmer said:


> Yep. It's right up there with the 2nd amendment (guns) and gay marriage. Sheesh!
> Well, here's one more opinion. Yes, opinion. Nobody has all the answers. I've had great grain fed beef, both store bought and privately purchased. I've had great grassfed beef, bought from local farmers. I've also had the most disgusting beef you'd ever wish you hadn't eaten, and yes, both grain and grassfed. I personally feel that slaughter and hanging
> have alot to do with flavor and tenderness. A smaller processor that may let the carcass cool down a bit slower and hang it a bit longer can have a superior product to the more rapid industrial model of kill-pack-ship-sell. But, grassfed, to me, has a deeper, more complex flavor, than you're average grain fed animal. ( Think dry-aged steak versus wet-pack. a less moisture=more flavor thing. But don't try to cook it past medium rare.)
> Having just recieved my first home grown grassfed (almost) beef back from the butcher, I find it moist, tender, and flavorful. Is there an advantage to grass over grain? It depends on what you like. I really hate venison. But like grassfed beef, goat, lamb, etc... It really is all a matter of personal taste and upbringing. Right up there with things like chili (I put it over spaghetti, and it better have cocoa in it.), and the coke/pepsi thing. Is it "cheaper" to raise on grass? My dexter cost me $1,076 from purchase to package, which was $4.10/lb. Not too cheap, but I know everything he ate, and that I'm going to eat. If you have the room and the time, I say try it on a small scale. Raise 2 steers, send them to the same butcher at the same time and find out. personally, I like just about any beef that's raised outside with pasture access, whether it's strickly grass, with a handful of grain now and then(like mine), or with free access to all the corn they want. Hey, I like grassfed, but I'm not a prude about it! Good beef is good beef! Karla



Well said!


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## montysky (Aug 21, 2006)

For us we raise grain fed beef, for our table and the open market, Black Angus and black baldies. And what ends up on my plate is a grain fed aged 21 days black baldie heifer grained for 120 days. I am blessed with a lot of large game here in Montana just got to add that lol.

If you like grass-fed raise or buy that if you like grain fed raise or buy that! There is no right or wrong answer. I like both but I like grain fed better it is what is right for us.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Wow, I didn't see anyone tell anyone want to eat. Seems like something is eating them. LOL.

We had our first grassfed beef done last year, oh wow it was SOOO good. We had a wet year and tons of clover in our pasture. We just had a cow done that was almost grass fed, just a little grain. Once again, excellent, moist, and even the fat tastes great (clean tasting, no off flavor that fat can easily get, at least to me).


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

southerngurl said:


> Wow, I didn't see anyone tell anyone want to eat.





cliff said:


> I personally could care less what you choose to eat, go have a tub o lard for all I care.


Well, I've been told to eat lard.......


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## Onthebit (Dec 3, 2008)

tinknal said:


> Well, I've been told to eat lard.......


I think you 'think' your feelings were hurt but it was actually your heart! 
:banana02:


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

It is a matter of choice, for sure. Some people that are raising grass fed cattle want to convince the 90% of the US population that we should change. When they persist, their information turns to speeches and then sermons. 

Let's review the argument for feeding a lower protein diet to cattle to lower the amount of animal fat present and help in the prevention of heart disease.

Fatty cuts of beef are better for you than beef tallow slathered in lard. Well trimmed corn fed beef is better for you than fatty cuts. Lean, grass fed beef is better for you than well trimmed beef. Venison is better for you than grass fed beef. Tofu is better for you than venison.

There are extremists at both end of this discussion. But don't go off criticizing my grain fed beef for health reasons until you are buying tofu by the case. It is just a question of degrees.


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## rileyjo (Feb 14, 2005)

I've had both and I prefer my animals to have a bit of corn/oat mix for the last 6 weeks or so. Confined to a barn and small yard, with free choice hay and water. It is not inhumane.

This Island I live on is mostly cattle and hay farms. The fat cattle go to market, the farmers eat vension harvested from the fields. Cows represent too much income to be eaten by the family.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Onthebit said:


> I think you 'think' your feelings were hurt but it was actually your heart!
> :banana02:


No, I just have a highly developed sense of humor and think some of you folks are a riot! :dance:


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## montysky (Aug 21, 2006)

haypoint said:


> It is a matter of choice, for sure. Some people that are raising grass fed cattle want to convince the 90% of the US population that we should change. When they persist, their information turns to speeches and then sermons.
> 
> Let's review the argument for feeding a lower protein diet to cattle to lower the amount of animal fat present and help in the prevention of heart disease.
> 
> ...


Great post,I am in agreement 100 percent.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Well, well, well, if Tofu is better for you than beef, I would rather live fewer years and enjoy what I eat, rather than eat Tofu. Yuk, Yuk, Yuk, Thanks Marc.


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## bigmudder77 (Jun 9, 2008)

Cliff said:


> I personally could care less what you choose to eat, go have a tub o lard for all I care.


Its couldnt care less. 

by saying i could care less your really saying that you could care less 

by saying i couldnt care less it means you really cant care any more 

but the price per pound on grass fed is more than grain fed its almost double around here 

i had some grass fed beef but they took a long time to get big about 4 years for a 560lb hanging weight cow 

when grain fed was about 16 months for a 720lb hanging weight cow 

i liked both of them but the time involved in grass fed was a pain took way to long and alot of money in the good hay for them 

when the grain fed got crap hay and all homegrown grain mixed here on the farm and also got corn silage 

if your eating for your health dont eat beef 

but other than that try both and see what you like better your local butcher will have both but just cause some one says its grass fed dont mean it really is any more people will tell you what you wanna hear or what they think you wanna hear to make a sale


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

bigmudder77 said:


> Its couldnt care less.
> 
> by saying i could care less your really saying that you could care less


Only if you cannot understand sarcasm.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

bigmudder77 said:


> i had some grass fed beef but they took a long time to get big about 4 years for a 560lb hanging weight cow
> 
> when grain fed was about 16 months for a 720lb hanging weight cow
> 
> i liked both of them but the time involved in grass fed was a pain took way to long and alot of money in the good hay for them


Well bigmudder, your doing something wrong. Just prior to Christmas we homekilled a 2 year old Jersey, completely grass fed with supplementary hay during the winter, with a hanging weight of 260kgs. Given that Jerseys are slow to grow, this was a good result.

Whether somebody eats corn fed or grass fed will be entirely up to personal choice - and that will be based on what they are used to. I have never eaten corn fed beef and if my experience of eating commercial pork, which is all grain fed, is anything to go by, nor do I want to. Somebody once described American beef to me as eating mushy cardboard and that is exactly what commercial pork is like. 

It's not an argument I'm going to get into as I've no experience with corn fed but as somebody earlier in the thread said, why throw money at your cattle in the shape of corn if you have plenty of good grass

Read Agman's threads. Now there is a guy who has brilliant looking cattle and makes reasonable money from them and it's all done on grass. While not all of you can run cattle without supplementary feeding, look around you and use what is on your own doorstep, look outside the square.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

wow bigmudder, 4 years for a 560# hook weight?
either that cow was a very small breed, had very crappy pasture and not enough water, or was sick. we have highland/angus/herefords, and pure highlands. 
we are 100% grass fed. a couple weeks ago we took in a 3 year old 3/4 highland steer, and a 2 1/2 year old hereford/angus cow that miscarried her calf. both hung just shy of 800#.

about 3 months ago we took in a 7 year old pure highland cow that had something internal wrong with her guts. she stopped eating and lost an enormous amount of weight before we got her to the butcher (we tried to save her). she was a few meals short of bag o bones, and she still hung at almost 500#. we ended up getting around 275# of useable meat off her.

something was definetly wrong with your cow bigmudder, or it was a huge dexter?


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## Onthebit (Dec 3, 2008)

http://hartkeisonline.com/2010/03/03/fat-on-grassfed-meat-is-healthy-claims-cookbook-author/

Read that, It relates how grass fed fat is good for you.


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## Onthebit (Dec 3, 2008)

haypoint said:


> It is a matter of choice, for sure. Some people that are raising grass fed cattle want to convince the 90% of the US population that we should change. When they persist, their information turns to speeches and then sermons.
> 
> Let's review the argument for feeding a lower protein diet to cattle to lower the amount of animal fat present and help in the prevention of heart disease.
> 
> ...


Not according to this: http://www.westonaprice.org/Myths-Truths-About-Soy.html

Myth: Use of soy as a food dates back many thousands of years.

Truth: Soy was first used as a food during the late Chou dynasty (1134-246 BC), only after the Chinese learned to ferment soy beans to make foods like tempeh, natto and tamari.

Myth: Asians consume large amounts of soy foods.

Truth: Average consumption of soy foods in Japan and China is 10 grams (about 2 teaspoons) per day. Asians consume soy foods in small amounts as a condiment, and not as a replacement for animal foods.

Myth: Modern soy foods confer the same health benefits as traditionally fermented soy foods.

Truth: Most modern soy foods are not fermented to neutralize toxins in soybeans, and are processed in a way that denatures proteins and increases levels of carcinogens.

Myth: Soy foods provide complete protein.

Truth: Like all legumes, soy beans are deficient in sulfur-containing amino acids methionine and cystine. In addition, modern processing denatures fragile lysine.

Myth: Fermented soy foods can provide vitamin B12 in vegetarian diets.

Truth: The compound that resembles vitamin B12 in soy cannot be used by the human body; in fact, soy foods cause the body to require more B12

Myth: Soy formula is safe for infants.

Truth: Soy foods contain trypsin inhibitors that inhibit protein digestion and affect pancreatic function. In test animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors led to stunted growth and pancreatic disorders. Soy foods increase the body's requirement for vitamin D, needed for strong bones and normal growth. Phytic acid in soy foods results in reduced bioavailabilty of iron and zinc which are required for the health and development of the brain and nervous system. Soy also lacks cholesterol, likewise essential for the development of the brain and nervous system. Megadoses of phytoestrogens in soy formula have been implicated in the current trend toward increasingly premature sexual development in girls and delayed or retarded sexual development in boys.

Myth: Soy foods can prevent osteoporosis.

Truth: Soy foods can cause deficiencies in calcium and vitamin D, both needed for healthy bones. Calcium from bone broths and vitamin D from seafood, lard and organ meats prevent osteoporosis in Asian countriesânot soy foods.

Myth: Modern soy foods protect against many types of cancer.

Truth: A British government report concluded that there is little evidence that soy foods protect against breast cancer or any other forms of cancer. In fact, soy foods may result in an increased risk of cancer.

Myth: Soy foods protect against heart disease.

Truth: In some people, consumption of soy foods will lower cholesterol, but there is no evidence that lowering cholesterol with soy protein improves one's risk of having heart disease.

Myth: Soy estrogens (isoflavones) are good for you.

Truth: Soy isoflavones are phyto-endocrine disrupters. At dietary levels, they can prevent ovulation and stimulate the growth of cancer cells. Eating as little as 30 grams (about 4 tablespoons) of soy per day can result in hypothyroidism with symptoms of lethargy, constipation, weight gain and fatigue.

Myth: Soy foods are safe and beneficial for women to use in their postmenopausal years.

Truth: Soy foods can stimulate the growth of estrogen-dependent tumors and cause thyroid problems. Low thyroid function is associated with difficulties in menopause.

Myth: Phytoestrogens in soy foods can enhance mental ability.

Truth: A recent study found that women with the highest levels of estrogen in their blood had the lowest levels of cognitive function; In Japanese Americans tofu consumption in mid-life is associated with the occurrence of Alzheimer's disease in later life.

Myth: Soy isoflavones and soy protein isolate have GRAS (Generally Recognized as Safe) status.

Truth: Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) recently withdrew its application to the FDA for GRAS status for soy isoflavones following an outpouring of protest from the scientific community. The FDA never approved GRAS status for soy protein isolate because of concern regarding the presence of toxins and carcinogens in processed soy.

Myth: Soy foods are good for your sex life.

Truth: Numerous animal studies show that soy foods cause infertility in animals. Soy consumption enhances hair growth in middle-aged men, indicating lowered testosterone levels. Japanese housewives feed tofu to their husbands frequently when they want to reduce his virility.

Myth: Soy beans are good for the environment.

Truth: Most soy beans grown in the US are genetically engineered to allow farmers to use large amounts of herbicides.

Myth: Soy beans are good for developing nations.

Truth: In third world countries, soybeans replace traditional crops and transfer the value-added of processing from the local population to multinational corporations.


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## bigmudder77 (Jun 9, 2008)

they were dairy breeds 2 holstins 

so they dont get big fast any ways 

pasture was good and hay was given 24-7 form of round bales winter was hard on them they lost some weight over the winters and it didnt help it was winter when i took them in and water was given all the time automatic waterer and 150gallon rubber maid tank heater ran all winter and then it had to be done with a hose every night and they never drank it all and there was 6 cows drinking it 

beef breeds dont take as long there is a guy down the road with angus and thats all his are pure grass fed and there good size 

there is a huge price difference in grain fed and grass fed the guy down the road sells grass fed beef for $4.50 a pound where there are guys selling grain fed beef for $2.00 a pound to $3.00 a pound 

ill try to do a couple on grass this year and see what happens


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## wstevenl (Mar 26, 2008)

Man, it really bothers me to have people try to say that the "healthy" part of grass fed beef is simply the lack of fat. That is not it at all. Taste is an opinion but the healthy aspects of the fat makeup in grass only animals is a proven thing. Moving to soy is much worse... like the Weston A. Price post shows. 

Heck, I raise grass fed for the health of the land, animals, and meat and I'd love to use the extra fat for lard in cooking and such, it's actually good for you.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

I find the extreme opposite views pretty entertaining to read. I'm a 14 year vegetarian. My boys are not, my husband is not. With research, I think it is fair to say any thinking person would be against feedlot, mass produced grain and by product feed only beef. It isn't good for you; it isn't humane for the cattle. I just feel that isn't an opinion. It is a fact, from all I can see.

I am sure you can get lots of varied opinions of grass fed is better tasting/healthier than mostly corn fed, but I bet most all CAN agree, if being honest, that either grass fed or corn fed with pasture access from a farm locally is significantly better than commercially raised feed lot processed beef, and it is certainly better for the cattle, as well. Of course, some people may not regard the animals' well being, and that is very sad. We get on doing a great many things by becoming detached, but that attitude lends little credit to those people - it is nothing to be proud of.

Dog weren't made to eat "dog food," but they get on okay and live, often, very long lives on the by products based diet they were never intended to eat, and people get on okay, often, eating a great many things we weren't intended to eat. Horses gain weight best on high quality hay only diets, but how many horses aren't filled with grain products on a daily basis (and the horses enjoy it, I know - lol)? 

If the people touting grass fed ONLY beef are that concerned for their health, you'd think they would be vegan for their own health? Of course, there will be people that argue that in spite of the facts surrounding it (hey, I'm not a vegan either - I'm a milk, eggs and cheese fan). . .just because they do not "like" it. So much of these types of debate are based on people standing against an idea they do not "like" and disregarding factual matters or common sense matters to uphold the side they prefer.

This is a homesteading forum, and that makes me think the people here would/could at least agree that
locally raised, preferably home raised, animals and all food sources are best, and it makes me think you should consider your health and the animals' health worth something or why pursue the homesteading lifestyle? 

I could get into the real reason massive amounts of corn being used in America is despicable to me, but it would fall on mostly deaf ears. lol - one must know when to not bother. The information is out there and very concrete for anyone to see. 

I support feeding your cows anything you buy or grow locally or yourself. If some of that is corn, awesome. I feed my Jersey grain. She loves it. My horses get a bit, too. The goats love their grain. I opt for very little corn in the diets of the heifer and goats, and none for the horses. 

BTW - I'm not a Peta supporter either. . .lol


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

well, mudder that explains it.
holsteins have been so 'up' bred for high milk production for so many years, as a general rule, holsteins don't thrive without grain. and if you live in a place with bad winters, as we do, holsteins on grass only suffer. We are deep in dairy country, and everyone has holsteins. we have a couple holsteins cross cows, and just this year obtained a couple holstein bull calves. compared to the beef breed cows, the holsteins crosses really suffer in the winter. the older one we are getting rid of after she calves this summer. the holstein steer we have is way smaller than the beef calves we have of the same age.
holsteins just do poorly without grain. I think if you tried a beef breed, even a total mutt beef steer, you will have much better luck than with holsteins


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## Onthebit (Dec 3, 2008)

deineria said:


> I find the extreme opposite views pretty entertaining to read. I'm a 14 year vegetarian. My boys are not, my husband is not. With research, I think it is fair to say any thinking person would be against feedlot, mass produced grain and by product feed only beef. It isn't good for you; it isn't humane for the cattle. I just feel that isn't an opinion. It is a fact, from all I can see.
> 
> I am sure you can get lots of varied opinions of grass fed is better tasting/healthier than mostly corn fed, but I bet most all CAN agree, if being honest, that either grass fed or corn fed with pasture access from a farm locally is significantly better than commercially raised feed lot processed beef, and it is certainly better for the cattle, as well. Of course, some people may not regard the animals' well being, and that is very sad. We get on doing a great many things by becoming detached, but that attitude lends little credit to those people - it is nothing to be proud of.
> 
> ...


The human is an omnivore, it's in our genetics to eat meats as well as plant material...we need and thrive on protein from meat....Tofu as I already posted isn't an option for a protein alternative. 

Grass fed beef fat has to be the best food in the world....I love it!:goodjob:


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## bigmudder77 (Jun 9, 2008)

lol had one of them also it was mixed with jersey lol but it was said to be angus/jersey mix but that was a year on grain (14 months old when butchered) with the holstein that i just took in holstein was 585lbs and the angus/jersey mix was 501lbs hanging weight at 14 months on grain and grass and hay that was left out side (free bales) and they ate it all wouldnt give ones that are only getting grass that stuff but with grain they do fine they didnt get any silage i was cutting gas costs hauling a load every 2 days last year 6 miles to the farm and 6 miles back added up the gas and really didnt put the weight on like this past years grain fed did so i think for this year im gonna do the same just feed them grain and (free hay) 

and if i get a couple beef breeds cheap then ill do one on grain and one on grass and see what happens with a "BEEF" breed 

i get all mine for a couple dairy farms around here average price is $50 per calf and i get them off milk and sell most of them and keep 2-4 a year 

and yes this is dariy counrty and every time you turn around there is another one going out and less and less farms around and more dairy farms selling out and going to land farming and no animals just crops i know 4 that went out last year and sold all there dairy cows and calves and most of there old stuff and got nice land farming stuff (tractors, drills, planters, bailers, hay wagons) and now thats all they do turned all the pastures to corn pretty much and make money rather than loose it every time you milk a cow since the milk prices went down so far they dont even cover the costs to run every thing and feed them 

so we will see after a while how many farms are left over the years if they keep raising the price of every thing but what you make


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Well, as far as human beings being an omnivore - it depends on who you ask - you can find experts that say we aren't or weren't originally and have adapted over time through micro evolution to be suited to it (which I agree with). I don't base my thoughts on that on what experts say really. . .mine belief that humans are not omnivorous from creation comes from my religious based beliefs (which indicate we were created vegetarian or vegan originally), and perfectly good protein does come tempeh, nuts, soybeans/edamame, black beans, miso, quinoa. . .these are protein rich vegan options. . . of course, conflicting info is out there on everything. The whole vegan. vegetarian and omnivore is a war that has no end. . .
For me, I opt for vegetarianism because I don't want to eat animals. . .not the health benefits that is usually associated with it.
But anyway ^ all that is off track from the OP's question. . .lol.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

deineria said:


> Well, as far as human beings being an omnivore - it depends on who you ask - you can find experts that say we aren't or weren't originally and have adapted over time through micro evolution to be suited to it (which I agree with). I don't base my thoughts on that on what experts say really. . .mine belief that humans are not omnivorous from creation comes from my religious based beliefs (which indicate we were created vegetarian or vegan originally), and perfectly good protein does come tempeh, nuts, soybeans/edamame, black beans, miso, quinoa. . .these are protein rich vegan options. . . of course, conflicting info is out there on everything. The whole vegan. vegetarian and omnivore is a war that has no end. . .
> For me, I opt for vegetarianism because I don't want to eat animals. . .not the health benefits that is usually associated with it.
> But anyway ^ all that is off track from the OP's question. . .lol.


Any Anthropologist can tell you this is a load of crock. The primates that man evolved from did not begin to grow large brains until they started eating large amounts of meat and fat. Meat and animal fat were essential in turning us from clever apes into intelligent human beings.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> well, mudder that explains it.
> *holsteins have been so 'up' bred for high milk production *for so many years, as a general rule, *holsteins don't thrive without grain*. and if you live in a place with bad winters, as we do, holsteins on grass only suffer. We are deep in dairy country, and everyone has holsteins. we have a couple holsteins cross cows, and just this year obtained a couple holstein bull calves. compared to the beef breed cows, the holsteins crosses really suffer in the winter. the older one we are getting rid of after she calves this summer. the holstein steer we have is way smaller than the beef calves we have of the same age.
> *holsteins just do poorly without grain*. I think if you tried a beef breed, even a total mutt beef steer, you will have much better luck than with holsteins


And that is just it - the Holstein and Jersey are milk producers, not meat producers. They are lighter boned, lighter muscled and for a very good reason. Instead of converting all that food into bone mass and muscle, they are converting it into milk. If those wanting meat are happy to take a smaller carcas in a short time frame, there is nothing wrong with the Jersey, Jersey/Friesian or Jersey/Angus but those wanting heaps of meat in the same time frame are better sticking with the beef breeds.

I would argue the point about Holsteins doing poorly without grain but in a convoluted sense. Most of NZ dairy herds are Friesian but in the last 30 years greed for higher production = higher returns took over and nobody looked past the end of their own noses as to the longer term outcome was going to be. They bred up to the huge American Holstein and got their milk yeilds but at an equally huge cost. A big cow needs more to eat to support herself and produce milk, a big cow causes big damage in pasture so even less to eat. Farmers started to find they were having to buy in feed to support these cows so the extra profit was going down the drain. They also found that up to 30% of their herd was returning empty, the price paid for breeding "up". There is now a slow trickle back to the British Holstein, or indeed, any smaller Holstein, and there are more Jersey herds around now than there has been in a long while. 

So yes, if you want a Holstein to get beef on (or milk well) you probably will have to feed it grain, not because it's a Holstein but because of it's size for the type of animal it is - a milk producer.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

you are right ronney, but so many people here raise holstein steers. You gotta do something with all those bull calves from the mega-dairy. dairy steers sure supply us with alot of 'store-burger'.

mudder, I would be interested to here your results when you butcher your 2 beef experiments. There is a guy near here, an old man who raises angus on straight corn and hay. yes they are ready to butcher at 1200# at 18 months, but they look like shiny black pigs on stick legs. I cant imagine the fat content of the meat.

Man was meant to eat meat. evolution is a proven load of crap, and the Bible clearly states, in Genesis 9:3 "I have given the animals to you for food, just as I have given you grain and vegetables."


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

As some of you may know I bought a 17 month old Jersey/Holstein cross heifer that supposedly barren. I had intended to process her for the freezer. She calved back in November. I was running her with the beef cattle on forage (fescue grass and clover) alone. As Winter approached I was unsure how she would fair through the cold months with a nursing calf as she was not raised on forage only. I though that I may have to tie a cinder block around her neck to keep her from blowing out of the pasture (joking). Yesterday I had the camera with me as I made a major shift in the herds location and I had a chance to get a photo of her. I was pleasantly surprised at her condition as we emerge from Winter. Obviously a dairy breed can be grown out on forage alone. Here she is still in her Winter coat. PS...the grass is not this green, the phone camera exaggerates!


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## wstevenl (Mar 26, 2008)

Aggman, I love how the calves lined up so nicely for the photo.


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

deineria said:


> I find the extreme opposite views pretty entertaining to read. I'm a 14 year vegetarian. My boys are not, my husband is not. With research, I think it is fair to say any thinking person would be against feedlot, mass produced grain and by product feed only beef. It isn't good for you; it isn't humane for the cattle. I just feel that isn't an opinion. It is a fact, from all I can see.


Soooo, if someone DOESN'T agree with you that "feedlot, mass produced grain and by product feed only beef" is disgusting, we're not "thinking"? Arrogance is apparently the first requirement to be a vegan/vegetarian. And you've bought into it strongly. I'll put my education, experience, and anything else up against yours any day and say, quite proudly, that we support the beef industry. I've been to feedlots and slaughter houses. Have you? Are there bad ones? Probably. But as the industry goes, you will NOT find me feeing ashamed of supporting the beef production system as it works today.



> I am sure you can get lots of varied opinions of grass fed is better tasting/healthier than mostly corn fed, but I bet most all CAN agree, if being honest, that either grass fed or corn fed with pasture access from a farm locally is significantly better than commercially raised feed lot processed beef, and it is certainly better for the cattle, as well. Of course, some people may not regard the animals' well being, and that is very sad. We get on doing a great many things by becoming detached, but that attitude lends little credit to those people - it is nothing to be proud of.


And again you infer that if we don't agree with your view, there's something wrong with us. I raise beef, but I buy my family's beef in the supermarket, just like 90% of the rest of the beef consuming public here in the US. 



> Dog weren't made to eat "dog food," but they get on okay and live, often, very long lives on the by products based diet they were never intended to eat, and people get on okay, often, eating a great many things we weren't intended to eat. Horses gain weight best on high quality hay only diets, but how many horses aren't filled with grain products on a daily basis (and the horses enjoy it, I know - lol)?


Dogs are omni, just like humans. They'll eat whatever they can get to stay alive. And this has nothing to do with beef.



> If the people touting grass fed ONLY beef are that concerned for their health, you'd think they would be vegan for their own health? Of course, there will be people that argue that in spite of the facts surrounding it (hey, I'm not a vegan either - I'm a milk, eggs and cheese fan). . .just because they do not "like" it. So much of these types of debate are based on people standing against an idea they do not "like" and disregarding factual matters or common sense matters to uphold the side they prefer.


ROTFLMAO! "people standing against an idea they do not "like" and disregarding factual matters...." Boy that describes you to a T. And when called on it, you say it's a "religious" thing. 



> This is a homesteading forum, and that makes me think the people here would/could at least agree that
> locally raised, preferably home raised, animals and all food sources are best, and it makes me think you should consider your health and the animals' health worth something or why pursue the homesteading lifestyle?


I guess you will have to adjust your thinking? If you're so concerned about the animal's health and well being, how do you justify your dairy products. You know, where they "rip the babies from their momma's teat, screaming" to provide YOU with the milk and cheese that you relish? 



> I could get into the real reason massive amounts of corn being used in America is despicable to me, but it would fall on mostly deaf ears. lol - one must know when to not bother. The information is out there and very concrete for anyone to see.


Yes, it'll fall on deaf ears. I doubt that's what's stopping you. You might also get educuated, like the soy information posted here. Did you bother to read it?



> I support feeding your cows anything you buy or grow locally or yourself. If some of that is corn, awesome. I feed my Jersey grain. She loves it. My horses get a bit, too. The goats love their grain. I opt for very little corn in the diets of the heifer and goats, and none for the horses.
> 
> BTW - I'm not a Peta supporter either. . .lol


You're sooo kind to "support" us feeding our cows whatever we want. When I go out later and feed the cows, I'll feel much better because of your consent. :boring:

Not a PETA supporter? How about HSUS, PCRM, and the rest of the animal rights kooks?


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

agmantoo said:


> As some of you may know I bought a 17 month old Jersey/Holstein cross heifer that supposedly barren. I had intended to process her for the freezer. She calved back in November. I was running her with the beef cattle on forage (fescue grass and clover) alone. As Winter approached I was unsure how she would fair through the cold months with a nursing calf as she was not raised on forage only. I though that I may have to tie a cinder block around her neck to keep her from blowing out of the pasture (joking). Yesterday I had the camera with me as I made a major shift in the herds location and I had a chance to get a photo of her. I was pleasantly surprised at her condition as we emerge from Winter. Obviously a dairy breed can be grown out on forage alone. Here she is still in her Winter coat. PS...the grass is not this green, the phone camera exaggerates!


In my experience, the real problem that high milking cows have is in breeding back. If this one produces a good calf year after year on grass alone, you've probably got a keeper. But I wouldn't hold my breath. She really has a small udder for her breeding. How did her calf wean?

I'm not at all convinced that how an animal is raised is especially important. It's the bacteria in their gut that matters. Microbes that digests forage are different from microbes that digest grain. When taken from a grain diet to grass or vice versa, the animal needs time to get their guts right.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

FEF

This cow is in with a beef herd and her 3/4 Jersey calf is not weaned. It is doing fine however and is eating grass the same as the beef calves its age. Her milk production has adjusted to the calf's consumption which is low IMO. I feel certain she is already bred back. I feel it is very important as to how an animal is raised. Mine are well cared for while they are on my place.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> evolution is a proven load of crap, "


Oh brother...........


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

FEF said:


> In my experience, the real problem that high milking cows have is in breeding back. If this one produces a good calf year after year on grass alone, you've probably got a keeper. But I wouldn't hold my breath. She really has a small udder for her breeding. How did her calf wean?
> 
> I'm not at all convinced that how an animal is raised is especially important. It's the bacteria in their gut that matters. Microbes that digests forage are different from microbes that digest grain. When taken from a grain diet to grass or vice versa, the animal needs time to get their guts right.


FEF, that heifer is exactly what I would expect from a grass fed animal rearing a calf that is just coming out of winter - and that includes her udder which is indicative of nothing. As Agman has explained, she hasn't been milked other than feeding her calf and she will have adjusted her production to suit. I completely grass feed my cows and have had first calvers come in with udders like that and give 12 litres in their first season, 15 litres in their second and 18 litres from there on, all Jerseys.

Agman, as you have probably deduced, I think she's looking pretty good for having fed a calf over winter and particularly if you suspect she is back in calf. Obviously she is not going into the freezer And once again, in my opinion, you have proved that grass fed works.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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