# Girls in the boy scouts.



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

NOT MY DAUGHTER!!!!! I fully understand some girls (Iwomen too)want to do the things boys do, camping fishing and other outdoor stuff the girls scouts don't seem to do. But to allow my teen age daughter to go on a week end camping trip ain't going to happen. I would implore the girl scouts to change up some of there activitys as because times have changed and for some reason Women and girls these days want to do every things boys and men do.

 Al


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

I suspect the Girl Scouts ain't too happy...


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## LittleFarmrJohn (May 27, 2015)

Both my girls are in Girl Scouts, they hike, camp, do archery, canoe... everything the boy scouts do. Last year they even started doing the pinewood derby. I guess we're lucky the leaders around here (my wife included) aren't afraid to get dirty and do it right.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

No more charitable donations to the Boy Scouts for me.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Did the girl scouts go belly up?


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## PlayingInDirt (Aug 2, 2017)

Are they gonna change their name?


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## Yoss (Sep 8, 2017)

I have mixed feelings on it. We have two BSA troops in our community and they seem to be doing OK, but I doubt they'd be successful without all the den mothers stepping up. At least half of the leadership roles are filled by women. The articles talk about having separate dens at the cub level, but it wasn't clear whether that carries over to the troop. I'm assuming they won't have coed camp outs, but you never know. I have nothing against mixed socialization, but I also think it's valuable for boys to have some time of their own and vice versa. 

Based on our experiences though, I can definitely see why girls would want access to the same activities as Boy Scouts. Maybe we had the wrong expectation of Girl Scouts, but we have not been impressed with the meager, mind-numbing activities offered. Granted, my daughter is only 8 so they aren't going to be doing anything terribly advanced, but it's pathetic compared to what my son got to do in Scouts at the same age. She's no tomboy either. In many ways, she's as girly as they come, but she wants to do more than glue bits of felt together and get coached on how to take advantage of her cuteness to sell cookies. And EVERYTHING pivots around those miserable cookie sales. Once cookie season is over, meetings and activities start getting cancelled left and right. We didn't renew her membership this time around and she hasn't missed it a bit.


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## PlayingInDirt (Aug 2, 2017)

I have 2 boys, and no experience with boy scouts, although I am considering having my younger boy participate. 

I don't see why girl scouts don't step up their game and offer more of the activities offered at boy scouts. If I had a daughter, I doubt my husband or I would feel comfortable with her going on co-ed campouts.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

They have decided to do this because families involved in Scouting have asked for this. Scouting is often a family thing. If their children can join a troop as a group in fosters family time. There is no really good reason to separate the sexes in the majority of activities they offer. When I was a kid we went on camping trips with a different organization but it was alway both boys and girls. Just different tents.


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## PlayingInDirt (Aug 2, 2017)

Maybe they should just merge the two and call it scouts then, not boy or girl.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

I have mixed feelings on this. Sometimes it's nice to go on an activity that doesn't involve members of the opposite sex. I'm not going after the dreaded "boys will be boys" stuff, but quite simply, boys develop differently from girls.

However, as far as I understand, the troops will still be divided by sex. So hopefully no co-ed campouts with horny, hormonal teenagers. I'm sure nothing would go wrong.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

When I was a girl scout, we camped, canoed, hiked and did all sorts of out doors stuff. We also took a trip to Washington DC. Once a year we'd get together with the boy scouts for a weekend at a scout camp before it opened to clear trails, etc. I believe the activities I participated in was because of the super leader. We were in the Trail Blazers.
Yes, I agree boys mature differently from girls and just like grown men and grown women, each need their time without the opposite sex..


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

I think it a non-event.....
Not My Kid?.....Seriously?

4H camps and activities , most all church groups , band, summer camp and any number of other groups are and have been co-ed fo years.... 
Events and campout are supervised and chaperoned...In a controlled environment.....??? 

So being Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts make then not trustable?....Seems a harsh judgment.
What about school, malls, Social Media or just hanging out with friends....That all need to segregated as well?


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## CaelAidan (Oct 5, 2017)

I wanted to be a Boy Scout as a kid. My Girl Scout troop was so... dull that I quit after the 5th grade when Mom finally let me after three years of begging. Instead of learning to make a fire, we watched the Yule Log burning on the TV. Instead of learning knots, we made yarn dolls. I think the most interesting thing we did was one time, we went camping, and a girl saw a snake (black snake, harmless). That was the first, and last, time that den mother wanted anything to do with the wilderness. She was very much... one of those ladies who genuinely believed that girls should learn how to cook, clean, and do nothing else unless her husband said it was okay....

That said, I don't think I'd have an issue with this. I don't have kids, so I can't say for sure how I would feel in the actuality of it, but... kids get into enough trouble these days as it is. In a mostly controlled environment, with regular supervision, separate tents/cabins, and diligent chaperones, the fears of The Worst Possible Scenarios (drugs, drinking, sex) are pretty much null and void. Plus, the kids who get that far and stay in the Scouts? Usually not a problem set they indulge in, in my experience.

Band kids, however.....


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## PlayingInDirt (Aug 2, 2017)

That is a really good point, Hunter.

What I don't get is why girl scouts don't do the same activities. But I think it must depend on the den leader.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

PlayingInDirt said:


> That is a really good point, Hunter.
> 
> What I don't get is why girl scouts don't do the same activities. But I think it must depend on the den leader.


The problem is marketing.....neither group wants to change.....
THe surviving group will be the one that changes with the times.
Before you know it women will be able to vote...(joke)

As far as supporting scouts, support what ever group you desire....They are both service organizations to help out the community and were both organized to prevent the bad behavior that many posts are worried about.

Brings into question What about Gender Confused Scouts....


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

FAMILIES ASK FOR THIS????, Heck they did, just LOOK at the polls that are coming out . This is the MOST ridiculous thing ever to hit the Scoots. Stupid stupid stupid.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Do you agree with the Boy Scouts' decision to include girls in some programs?
25%
Yes


67%
No


8%
I'm not sure

Total responses: 402,385 votes


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Both my daughter and son belonged to the school band. They only went on day trips to contest and were back home at night.

They were allowed to join and go to any church they disired, both didn't care for the attempts at brain washing them so didn't go. so now worrys about coed over nighters there either.

The daughter joined the brownies for a while but decided what they did wasn't her cup of tea after a couple of years.

If they are going to be seprate than why allow girls to join the boys?


. Al


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

While I have no experience with the group, Campfire Girls became CoEd in 1975 according to their website, and it is now simply called Campfire or Campfire Org. So really, it's been done already.


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## Hitch (Oct 19, 2016)

It’s horrible for a multitude of reasons. But it speaks to our society and the constant need for inclusion.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Stupid stupidity stupidly ect ect ect


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

They all ready have venture scouts which is co-ed. No reason to do this


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

I feel boys shouldn't be allowed to join girl scouts and girls shouldn't be allowed to join boy scouts. For many kids they really discover themselves in these groups and having the opposite sex in the groups could really stunt that. When you mix genders as teens,things get all complicated


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

As a former scout and later scout leader I am generally opposed to mixing the two sexes. Don't get me wrong, my daughters have incredible outdoor skills. They will hunt, fish, hike, canoe or backpack like nobodies business. 
My main objection is that the purpose of Boy Scout is to teach young boys how to become men. The outdoor activity is the means to take their energy levels and help focus them to that goal. Young boys are lead by older boys who are lead by men. I have seen where scouting has shaped my life and the lives of many of my friends into becoming responsible adults. Guys learn how to be guys from other guys. At the impressionable ages (11-16) that most boys are active in Scouts the camaraderie along with the example set by the men who lead it has a lasting effect. 

It is sad to say that many men are neglecting the responsibility of being leaders. More and more woman are filling their roles.
I admire these woman for stepping up, but it defeats the purpose.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

I, Also as a former cub to scout & then a leader with Beavers on up I'm 100% with JJ... Boys like Girls need their own space without any of the gender mix issues & pressures that go with it... It's time to let the hair down, relax and have fun while learning useful things and doing activities & projects with the others. Adding girls into the mix changes the entire experience...

My Better Half grew up with brownies to Girl Scouts and was also a leader and she's dismayed at how the entire organization has started to devolve - even to the point where selling off the camp lands owned for decades to take the profit... consider many of the properties have been owned since the 1920's onward.... the excuse, we are not getting the girls or activity levels and the properties are going fallow & to waste.... oh and of course upkeep... Well they seem to be doing NOTHING really to attract the kids in and involved... MAYBE consider getting a PR Company (all female one even) and get some thinking caps on and start "Marketing & Promoting" with maybe some core revision for activities & such...

BTW: Have a look at Girl Scouting across the world and many have far more in-line activities with camping, canoeing, fishing, basic survival skills etc and it works for them... 

Same applies to Boy Scouting worldwide where they have evolved up... sure beats having the kids in front of a computer, or on their phones etc and they are learning to be "actually social" without FaceBlot and they even learn certain social skills and abilities in such groups which are being washed away by the Techno-World....


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Sixty years ago I would've said: "Wow, my prayers have been answered!"

Today I'd get kicked out of the tent for farting too much......

But then, we had coed 4-H, coed Youth Fellowship Camp, coed high school choir and band, coed corn detasseling, coed debate teams, (FFA, and Boy's State weren't)----AND, my dorm at Purdue was the first one to go coed. That was great--just like brothers and sisters. Yes, there was some ROU, ROU, ROU for awhile like Notre Dame gorillas(the whole ND campus was male, at that time)--but it settled down and was pretty much like home.

I think the Scout organizations can handle it creatively. Historically, the ones to watch might be the leaders....

geo


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## MELQ (Feb 27, 2011)

I know a lot of groups are coed but I think these 2 groups should still be separate.


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## CIW (Oct 2, 2007)

The largest single troop sponsor in the world has said that they won't endorse the change in the organization. And will continue it for young men only. If they were to pull their support the Boy Scouts of America would cease to exist. I'm sure at some level, they are ready to continue on their own if necessary.
From a personal prospective, I think that this will go by the wayside. With all due respect, young women won't feel comfort in the organization. Its a non issue.
Sure, you will have the occasional young women who wants to join in. Just as there are a few that want to play football. But as a whole it will fade away.


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## Elffriend (Mar 2, 2003)

Steve_S said:


> Well they seem to be doing NOTHING really to attract the kids in and involved... MAYBE consider getting a PR Company (all female one even) and get some thinking caps on and start "Marketing & Promoting" with maybe some core revision for activities & such...


I was a Girl Scout from Brownies to Seniors. As an adult I was a leader for 8 years. My now 23 yr old daughter was in Girl Scouts from Daisies to Cadettes and then after our move to Canada she was in Girl Guides for Pathfinders and Rangers. She earned her Bronze award in the U.S. and the Canada Cord and Chief Commissioner's Gold award here in Canada. We were very into scouting.

The Girl Scouts tried a PR campaign and revamping of the program to attract/keep more older girls shortly before we moved. I don't know how it worked out ultimately, but I know what my daughter and the other three girls still in the troop thought. They thought it was ridiculous. They were making an attempt to make scouting cool and trendy but what they were really doing was alienating the girls who didn't care about that sort of thing. And as my daughter said at the time, "If you're still in scouts as a teenager you aren't cool, and that's ok. Not everybody wants to be cool. Some of us are PROUD to be geeky." I think GSUSA missed the boat. They didn't understand who their core girl members really were.


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## cpnkrunch (Dec 6, 2014)

Like JJ I was everything from Cub Leader, Webelos, Asst. SM, Scout Master, Commitee Chair, about everything you can do. Long course Wood Badge, OA, Tribe of Mic-o-say, and I don't think for a moment that it is a good idea for mixing the two genders. Does that sound like a stong opinion, perhaps? I quit around 2000, feeling the organization was getting to PC & I don't do politics well. Girl Scouts are fueled by cookies sales and Boy Scouts are fueled by popcorn sales, troop gets little, national gets fat. There was some talk circa mid 90s of keeping programs seperate but merging the admin/national level. Didn't fly IIRC. Boys were being pushed to make Eagle by 14/15 because they knew for the most part that they would loose them at 16, with cars and girls. I witnessed a scout mom "buying" merit badges for her son to be an Eagle. Scout got 21 merit badges during camp, don't know if he attended class or not, just glad it wasn't our troop involved. Now would you want your daughter or grand in that organization?
I'm not down on scouting. I think the local packs/troops etc. are great but I hate what the organization itself has devolved into. I have a grandson just starting cubs, my SIL is involved, so we shall see. Right now I have to go complete my popcorn order.


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## 92utownxj (Sep 13, 2013)

I don't agree with it at all. I was in cub scouts and boy scouts, from 1st grade to early high school. I was also in other coed groups, but boy scouts offered something the coed groups did not. It made it what it is. I'll always look up to, admire, and respect my old scout master. Funny thing is, he didn't have any sons. He had 2 daughters. He was part of the church the troop was chartered with. He did it to help make great young men. He loved the outdoors and was a great leader. I still talk to him from time to time 20 years later. I know our troop was different than some, or most, I don't know. Sure we did all the scout stuff, but we were like a family. During the week at camp in the summer we'd do the merit badges in the morning. In the afternoon we'd relax, talk, built things. If girls were allowed it would have been totally different. Not in a good way either. We would have all been worrying about impressing them or just acting totally different. 

Currently, our son is in cub scouts. It's changed a lot since I was in it. The leader makes a huge difference too.


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## Skamp (Apr 26, 2014)

This marks my first anniversary participating in cub scouts. I was drafted as a Den Leader two weeks ago. 

Some back story:

I have two sons and one daugter, all grown, and with children if there own. I did not enroll the boys into scouts because of the girl. We'll do it together or we won't do it. 

Fast forward quite a few years and I end up with two grandsons and a granddaughter, same thing, we'll do this together. 

Fast forward to now and I have a second crop of grandchildren, two granddaughters and one grandson. The lovely daughter-in-law is the main mananager. She enrolled the boy in cub and the girls in daisies/brownies. They tagged at each other's meetings for a couple of months. The girls would rather "tag" their way through cub. 

The Boy Scouts program is focused on developing leaders. Gender ain't got nothing to do with that. If you're worried about being shown up by a girl, get over it. I was taught that, and have taught it for decades. The contraire is true also, a boy should be taught, and excel, at those skills typically reserved for the other gender. 

"I can skin a buck, I can run a trot line."

I can cook a buck, and hang clothes on the line. 

Country folks can survive.


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## Skamp (Apr 26, 2014)

CIW said:


> The largest single troop sponsor in the world has said that they won't endorse the change in the organization.............


From the polygamists? I can see the XY connection.


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## PrairieClover (Jun 19, 2015)

After this many years, there is still so much bigotry and it rears its ugly head again.
Back to the topic of girls in boy scouts. 
I think it is being done for several reasons and the biggest one, IMHO, is political correctness and another is most likely financial since the biggest single sponsor is withdrawing somewhat from the scouting for 12 and up.

I'm the parent of 2 Eagle Scouts. I think they appreciated having a separate boys' group to participate in. Why is that such a big deal? I don't think it is that big of a deal since the scouting administration has said the girls can be separate from boys but still participate in the scouting program; and as posted above, there is the BSA Venturing program for the older kids which is co-ed.
Also, as posted above, the girl groups are so fluffy. Really? Some of these too are political and involve leadership skills and sharpening competitive, aggressive skills with which to take over the world, how to apply nail polish, and other skills that wreak of someone's agenda. Just kidding. Or am I? 
Where was the camping, knife sharpening, orienteering, and all the other cool outdoor stuff to learn and do for girls? 

And no, girl scouts has not collapsed or folded or shut down. You can find them outside of most WalMarts aggressively selling their cookies in the spring every year.


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## Skamp (Apr 26, 2014)

PrairieClover said:


> .........I think it is being done for several reasons and the biggest one, IMHO, is political correctness and another is most likely financial since the biggest single sponsor is withdrawing somewhat from the scouting for 12 and up.........


I think you, and most here, are missing the point. Ground roots girls. Ever seen/dealt with one? I have just as many as I do boys. I love, respect, and listion to them all.


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## PrairieClover (Jun 19, 2015)

Missing who's point? Your point or the reason BSA is opening up to girls? What does "ground root girls" mean? Getting girls back to nature and how to camp? Is that what you mean? Or just the overall program of BSA as a grounding force for girls? Please be more specific if you're going to pull point.


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## Skamp (Apr 26, 2014)

PrairieClover said:


> Missing who's point? Your point or the reason BSA is opening up to girls? What does "ground root girls" mean? Getting girls back to nature and how to camp? Is that what you mean? Or just the overall program of BSA as a grounding force for girls? Please be more specific if you're going to pull point.


Leaders. LEADERS. I said it before.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Boy Scouting teaches leadership, cooperation, organization, responsibility, patriotism, and all the twelve points of the Scout Law.
These are just and noble lessons all boys should learn.

It also involves running around in your underwear, farting contests, and peeing out the back of the tent.

adding girls would change all of these other "important" things.

Let boys be open to be boys. Under the guidance of men they will be men.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

I have no experience with any of the scouts - and do not really know how different Boy Scouts are from Girl Scouts. However, it would seem to me that the Boy Scouts have finally succumbed to the "all inclusive world".
I can remember the outcry several years ago when gays weren't allowed in the Boy Scouts.
Not too long, the transgender thing reared it's head and once again the Boy Scouts were in the news.

I would have to guess the Boy Scouts were infiltrated by liberals and now "everybody" is welcome.

I don't believe in the traditional roles - men as breadwinners, women as homemakers - and think both sexes should know how to do everything. But I feel that all boys groups & all girls groups are good - let each sex bond and grow up with each other.

What is next? Are The Mason's going to allow women in? Are The Rebeccahs going to allow men in?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I think this is been coming for a long time
You can't exclude anybody from anything
And to be honest the Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts troops around here have been fairly good about including females in a lot of their activities
So they have just made that unofficial policy official

Of course the Girl Scouts have been the ones to object the loudest
Pointing out that they have the best set up for young women
And I'm sure that's true. A former girlfriend was a Girl Scout troop leader and they did camping trips that made me jealous. 

So here's how I see this working out
The Boy Scouts will continue to attract boys and the Girl Scouts will continue to attract girls. 
And when someone wants to make a fuss about it they will be allowed into the other. 
The only real difference I see happening will be in those areas where there are very few scout troops of either gender
And those will be far more inclusive

In the end I believe everybody will win with this one


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## chaossmurf (Jan 6, 2017)

imagine the HORRORS of that poor troop leader --he became a troop leader to ***** little boys ---he doesn't wanna touch a girl !!!--or are those priests ??? 

is she going to show them her cookies ?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Of course Boy Scouts need to have girls along on their camp outs, someone needs to make sure they have clean sheets on their beds, fix their meals for them and keep those uniforms neat clean and properly pressed for them..... After all those aren't just boys, they are men in training!!


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## Prismseed (Sep 14, 2009)

Feminists must love you.


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## Southern Forest (May 5, 2012)

There are fewer actual Boy Scouts today than in the 1960's. It's already a decimated organization. When I came to southern Mississippi in 1995, there were three troops in my town. Now there are none. The nearest troop to our new place has four boys. I'm now an assistant scout master and I can't see scouting surviving another decade. Just this last weekend, another legacy troop (more than 50 years old) has finally folded. They couldn't keep things going with just one boy. Putting girls in scouting will be the final nail in the coffin. We need to train boys to become self-reliant men. Adding girls to the mix will not allow that to happen. This is nothing against girls nor is it sexist to point out the needs of boys for maturing into responsible men.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Prismseed said:


> Feminists must love you.


Oh, they do, they really do! At least the ones who know me and have a sense of humor do.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

With the rule changes come lack of funding.....much in our area came from churches .......
When I was a boy scout...the local church was the support and provided leaders.
I do have to say...we were not pushed into any religions....just boys having fun.

Important to note......That those same church do not agree with what's going on... it is pulling funding.

So it kinda come down to try to keep enough members ..from anywhere..to keep going.

https://www.dallasnews.com/life/fai...e-185000-mormon-members-church-starts-program

I still say this a "non event"....


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

a couple of posters mentioned the main funding...who/what is that?


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

Heritagefarm said:


> I have mixed feelings on this. Sometimes it's nice to go on an activity that doesn't involve members of the opposite sex. I'm not going after the dreaded "boys will be boys" stuff, but quite simply, boys develop differently from girls.
> 
> However, as far as I understand, the troops will still be divided by sex. So hopefully no co-ed campouts with horny, hormonal teenagers. I'm sure nothing would go wrong.


If they are going to divide the sexes, why don't they just leave it as it is ?
can't the girls take the initiative to upgrade and do what the boys do ?
separate tents ? LOL what hanky panky goes on will not be in either tent..


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

I just hope this sort of attitude don't carry over to churches...I'd hate to finally, after all these years, start going to church only to find they allow women to sit in the same service as men.

The horror...the horror.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

BSA and GSA are a business on many levels....BIG business....especially on the National Level...
You don't think the building are free... and staff are volunteers do you?
The parents have enough to do with uniforms, book activity fees' 

Around here...several headquarters have close for lack of funding. for needed repairs and dropping memberships.
https://www.yellowpages.com/racine-...erica-southeast-wisconsin-2000443?lid=2000443
No direct government funding...but tax breaks....that were in jeopardy because of policies.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/08/07/is-boy-scouts-america-public-or-private.html
To get the goodies you have to be P.C.


Our camp trailer, storage, tents cook gear as well as advertising printing costs were sponsored by the local Lutheran Church..
There wasn't any "preaching" in our group...But I can't talk about any other group.

So a lot more to it than... "My daughter isn't gonna go camping with the nasty boys...."
Those that don't agree....quit, drop out, don't join......Your call.
Not gonna change anything.


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## PrairieClover (Jun 19, 2015)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America

this article lists the main corporate sponsors near the bottom of the article under finance. Intel, Verizon, 3M, to name a few.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

alleyyooper said:


> NOT MY DAUGHTER!!!!! I fully understand some girls (Iwomen too)want to do the things boys do, camping fishing and other outdoor stuff the girls scouts don't seem to do. But to allow my teen age daughter to go on a week end camping trip ain't going to happen. I would implore the girl scouts to change up some of there activitys as because times have changed and for some reason Women and girls these days want to do every things boys and men do.
> 
> Al


Do you have any idea how insulting this post is for your daughter?
If I used the words that you imply I would probably be banned from the site. 

And if that's not you mean what you're saying about the boys in question is even worse.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Clem said:


> I just hope this sort of attitude don't carry over to churches...I'd hate to finally, after all these years, start going to church only to find they allow women to sit in the same service as men.
> 
> The horror...the horror.


The bible I read (KJV) seems to imply that women, if allowed at all, are to remain in the back, not mingled in with the men. Your mileage may vary.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

So, I gather you're a lot like me....never go to a church. Can't blame ya. Last 3 times I went, 1987, my father's funeral. 2005 my mother's funeral. 2011 my wife's funeral. I've made it abundantly clear that if anybody around here expects to see me in church again, it ain't happening.

Still, though, I had to go every time one had a meeting, from 1951 to 1960, and after that, at least 3 times a week for the next 8 years. At that time, women with blue or pink hair sat anywhere they damned pleased, and would turn around and grab a chunk of my cheek, or a handful of my hair, and nobody stopped them.

Sometimes, you can say something, and apparently it's too subtle. So, what I was indicating was that if boys and girls can live together in the same family, go to school together, go to church together...and all that is fine, then fretting about them going to scouts together is beyond silliness. It seems to indicate some deep seated misogyny.

Gonna be hard to misunderstand that. I feel defeated that anyone didn't actually get the subtle, but nice hint. Now you've made me be obnoxious. I do apologize for having to be direct.


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## Southern Forest (May 5, 2012)

You are wrong about the fret. Boys need to be trained how to be men. That cannot be done with girls present, not because of mysogyny, but because at the present, our boys are dropping out of school, not going to college, and have higher suicide rates than girls. They have specific needs when it comes to maturing that cannot be met with girls present. Boys have nowhere they can simply be boys. You'll notice the Girl Scouts want nothing to do with having boys. Yet that is just hunky-dory.


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## Prismseed (Sep 14, 2009)

Southern Forest said:


> You'll notice the Girl Scouts want nothing to do with having boys. Yet that is just hunky-dory.


Gender identity issues being what they are I don't see that lasting much longer.



Southern Forest said:


> our boys are dropping out of school, not going to college, and have higher suicide rates than girls. They have specific needs when it comes to maturing that cannot be met with girls present.


If the problem is that severe perhaps there should be an option available other than the random 'maybe their parents will sign them up for scouts'.


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## Southern Forest (May 5, 2012)

You see, you now question if we need to fix despite an alternative that is already in existence. The law of unintended consequences: we discard what works only to discover we need to replace it to fix the damage done. 

How about we posit this question: What is it about Scouting that was bad and required changing? Did scouting teach racism? No. Did scouting teach religious intolerance? No. (But does require religious affiliation of some kind - probably the source of much anger against it). Did scouting teach sexism? No.

What it teaches is how to become a man who respects others, respects the environment, who respects women, who is self-reliant, who can think in emergencies, who knows how to act in emergencies, who can manage a plethora of circumstances competently, who knows how to handle himself in the outdoors, who learns how to work with others and how to be reliable and trustworthy.

Why is that formula bad? Why must it be over-turned? Why find another alternative when what was plainly so very effective at creating good family men who shouldered their responsibilities already existed? Lunacy.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Southern Forest said:


> You see, you now question if we need to fix despite an alternative that is already in existence. The law of unintended consequences: we discard what works only to discover we need to replace it to fix the damage done.
> 
> How about we posit this question: What is it about Scouting that was bad and required changing? Did scouting teach racism? No. Did scouting teach religious intolerance? No. (But does require religious affiliation of some kind - probably the source of much anger against it). Did scouting teach sexism? No.
> 
> ...


I always thought the responsibilty to teach such things lay with the parents, not some outside entity. Learn something new every day. I must have overcome some serious hurdles to have been as successful and to have stayed married and raised such a good child while never having been a scout.


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## Dustin (Apr 20, 2011)

Both of my younger brothers and I are proud Eagle Scouts. Cub to Eagle. My youngest just resigned from working with BSA a few weeks before this decision (not related). This decision is 100% financial. Participation and fund raising has been plummeting. Listening to my brother tell me how the organization was run was very disheartening.

The BSA was a huge influence on my childhood and who I became as an adult.

I don't agree with the decision for any reason. BSA was a chance for boys to be boys and learn and experience things about who you are and what kind of man you want to be. Not only has it been done for misleading reasons, does anyone remember the tension between sexes growing up just in school? Pick on them, then you're scared of them, then they're ALL you can think about. That is going to change the dynamics and results of the organization immensely. I couldn't imagine being able to stumble through some of the things I did in BSA with a pretty blond sitting next to me.

I don't know what we'll do with our children once they come of troop age.


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## Prismseed (Sep 14, 2009)

Southern Forest said:


> You see, you now question if we need to fix despite an alternative that is already in existence. The law of unintended consequences: we discard what works only to discover we need to replace it to fix the damage done.


Your argument is intelligent but I still disagree. I would say that the damage is already there and that the scouts while appreciable in their results only serves a fraction of the at risk young men. Not to say throw the baby out with the bath water; rather take the established foundation put forward by the scouts to create something that reaches a broader range of people.



Southern Forest said:


> How about we posit this question: What is it about Scouting that was bad and required changing? Did scouting teach racism? No. Did scouting teach religious intolerance? No. (But does require religious affiliation of some kind - probably the source of much anger against it). Did scouting teach sexism? No.


Well said, but this is only one angle/reasoning behind the choice to go coed, there are other factors and schools of thought involved.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mmoetc said:


> I always thought the responsibilty to teach such things lay with the parents, not some outside entity. Learn something new every day. I must have overcome some serious hurdles to have been as successful and to have stayed married and raised such a good child while never having been a scout.


Well how works fine if you got parents

But parents or not Boy Scouts give boys a place to see their peers actively reinforce good behavior


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## Prismseed (Sep 14, 2009)

Dustin said:


> Not only has it been done for misleading reasons,


Could you elaborate or share some links explaining more of this?



Dustin said:


> does anyone remember the tension between sexes growing up just in school? Pick on them, then you're scared of them, then they're ALL you can think about. That is going to change the dynamics and results of the organization immensely. I couldn't imagine being able to stumble through some of the things I did in BSA with a pretty blond sitting next to me.


Can't deny it is a growing pain the scouts will face. But with proper structure, support, and guidance it could be another lesson in the refinement of our youth. I support the coed decision but I do think there should be a men/boys club sub group or some such to still have the option of male bonding.

As a side note the Young Men's Christian Association has gone coed and removed religious standing to go on and become an organization that helps a very diverse group of people.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I think that there is a place for things that should be single sex only and BSA may be one of them. I would have loved have to seen BSA start a spinoff for girls. I went thru GS as long as I could stand it and so did my daughters. It's too dependent on the whims of the leaders and girls need something that focuses more on character building and also being able to earn the Eagle Scout badge.


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## Prismseed (Sep 14, 2009)

Lisa in WA said:


> It's too dependent on the whims of the leaders


Indeed. My cousin was complaining that she hates camping but she had to get certified to take the girls because the only other woman in her troop that could was a senior citizen that was stepping down in a few months.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Prismseed said:


> Indeed. My cousin was complaining that she hates camping but she had to get certified to take the girls because the only other woman in her troop that could was a senior citizen that was stepping down in a few months.


In my oldest daughters troop it was all about crafting and makeup. I tried to get the leaders to do some public service things, volunteered and spearheaded some events but they weren't biting. They were more interested in making sure all the girls felt comfortable calling them by their first names. As far as my experience, it wasn't much better. I used to take my brothers Boys Life magazines and read them cover to cover and wish I were a boy.


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## Dustin (Apr 20, 2011)

Prismseed said:


> Could you elaborate or share some links explaining more of this?


My brother was working for the BSA for a while until he recently resigned. So I have no articles to share, but people choose to believe what they want. The decisions regarding gay membership and now this were all very calculated decisions based on nothing but money. Membership, corporate sponsorship, demographics of who would join vs. who would leave, etc.

It had nothing to do with Powell's vision of what the purpose of the organization was to be.

And I had no issue with allowing gay scouts in the organization.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Well how works fine if you got parents
> 
> But parents or not Boy Scouts give boys a place to see their peers actively reinforce good behavior


Shouldn’t that be the role of all adults, to model and reinforce good behavior?


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## Southern Forest (May 5, 2012)

Actually, it is more than simply adults, but rather how a troop is run. It is fundamentally run by the boys, with the adult leadership there to ensure safety and provide direction. For example, on a camp-out, the boys ensure their meals are cooked (and purchased), fires are safely-built, necessary jobs are delegated, and the campsite is ordered. They are also responsible for training the younger scouts. I train my own son well. There is a photo of him doing work on this very site. However, I have him in a Boy Scout troop so that he learns leadership through more than just by own teaching.

I am an Eagle Scout and it bothers me tremendously to see the organization gut itself this way. It has already marginalized itself, now I fear with but the stroke of a pen it has sent itself into obscurity.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Southern Forest said:


> Actually, it is more than simply adults, but rather how a troop is run. It is fundamentally run by the boys, with the adult leadership there to ensure safety and provide direction. For example, on a camp-out, the boys ensure their meals are cooked (and purchased), fires are safely-built, necessary jobs are delegated, and the campsite is ordered. They are also responsible for training the younger scouts. I train my own son well. There is a photo of him doing work on this very site. However, I have him in a Boy Scout troop so that he learns leadership through more than just by own teaching.
> 
> I am an Eagle Scout and it bothers me tremendously to see the organization gut itself this way. It has already marginalized itself, now I fear with but the stroke of a pen it has sent itself into obscurity.


And none of these things can be done by, or with, girls? Maybe the first step is recognizing all children, male or female, benefit from these lessons.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)




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## Southern Forest (May 5, 2012)

No, no it can't. Already, everywhere, from school to other places, boys must integrate with girls on all things, meaning girls must be accommodated for, must have their needs met, and their own learning styles considered. Boys need, particularly now, an outlet for being boys whilst being guided towards manhood. And by that, I mean manhood, not merely adulthood. Contrary to what some intend to force, boys and girls are different.

Boy Scouting, almost alone, exists so that boys can be so trained. 

And this is not about woman or girl hating. I have four sisters and a daughter and wife. I believe in equality. I teach my female students that they can do anything as well as young men (and encourage them to learn mechanics skills so that they are not forced to rely on others).

But there is nothing wrong with letting boys learn and be fostered among boys.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Southern Forest said:


> No, no it can't. Already, everywhere, from school to other places, boys must integrate with girls on all things, meaning girls must be accommodated for, must have their needs met, and their own learning styles considered. Boys need, particularly now, an outlet for being boys whilst being guided towards manhood. And by that, I mean manhood, not merely adulthood. Contrary to what some intend to force, boys and girls are different.
> 
> Boy Scouting, almost alone, exists so that boys can be so trained.
> 
> ...


What exactly can they learn among themselves that they can’t learn with girls present?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> What exactly can they learn among themselves that they can’t learn with girls present?


Lots of wonderful stuff.... Stuff they need if they are ever going to be men.


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## Southern Forest (May 5, 2012)

Men and women are different. Fathers need times with their sons without daughters present. Daughters also need time with dad without sons present. The same works with groups of boys. I can say scouting had a profound effect on my life, and I had good male role-models already. That could not have happened in a coed arrangement.

Okay, let's turn the table. Why exactly is it wrong for boys to be trained only in the company of other boys? It isn't like they don't already coed for everything else. What benefit is it for boys to lose out?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Lots of wonderful stuff.... Stuff they need if they are ever going to be men.


Example?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Southern Forest said:


> Men and women are different. Fathers need times with their sons without daughters present. Daughters also need time with dad without sons present. The same works with groups of boys. I can say scouting had a profound effect on my life, and I had good male role-models already. That could not have happened in a coed arrangement.
> 
> Okay, let's turn the table. Why exactly is it wrong for boys to be trained only in the company of other boys? It isn't like they don't already coed for everything else. What benefit is it for boys to lose out?


I never said it was wrong. But you nor anyone else has told me exactly what the boys are losing out on other than some vague, undefined ideals about what they need to become men.


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## Prismseed (Sep 14, 2009)

Well at this point it has happened, they are coed.

What are people going to do now?

I think about volunteering at times but I don't have any kids, and in today's untrusting world that may be viewed suspiciously.



mmoetc said:


> Example?


I'm not sure but this may just be his sarcasm.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> Example?


Nope, there may be ladies present, ain't violating the code of secrecy that easy.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Nope, there may be ladies present, ain't violating the code of secrecy that easy.


And I ain’t playing your games.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> And I ain’t playing your games.


If you really really have to know.... It's called "no girls allowed guy time". If they don't learn how to do that as boys they will likely end up like my daddy was.... Insisting upon one night a week out with the boys.... And not wasting it on the boys. I am curious about one thing here though, what exactly is wrong with boys having some guy time where they can just be boys, not having to worry about being accused of sexual harassment by telling each other funny stories around a campfire, or being charged with a crime for using creativity in putting out said campfire?


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## Dustin (Apr 20, 2011)

mmoetc said:


> What exactly can they learn among themselves that they can’t learn with girls present?


A good example was presented. Putting out a camp fire by peeing on it!

I remember the nuances of how I acted around girls throughout the years. I know for a fact that my experience would have been very different if girls were present. The very limited supervision and expectation that us young men conduct ourselves without adult supervision was a major characteristic of scouting. That's not possible with post puberty coed. Ask any 4-H summer camp attendee if they know of any stories.

It just won't be the same. Worse, better or no difference- it's not the same and what it was is what I wanted for my sons.


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## Dustin (Apr 20, 2011)

Southern Forest said:


> No, no it can't. Already, everywhere, from school to other places, boys [……]
> 
> But there is nothing wrong with letting boys learn and be fostered among boys.


Excellent and well stated points Southern Forest. I share your sentiments and perspective.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> If you really really have to know.... It's called "no girls allowed guy time". If they don't learn how to do that as boys they will likely end up like my daddy was.... Insisting upon one night a week out with the boys.... And not wasting it on the boys. I am curious about one thing here though, what exactly is wrong with boys having some guy time where they can just be boys, not having to worry about being accused of sexual harassment by telling each other funny stories around a campfire, or being charged with a crime for using creativity in putting out said campfire?


Again, where did I ever say boys couldn’t have time with just other boys? It’s quite a stretch to blame whatever indiscretions your father engaged in on his lack of childhood “boys only time” but I guess any excuse will do.

How does peeing on a fire make one a better man? How does that translate to a more productive adulthood? Isn’t that the contention?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Dustin said:


> A good example was presented. Putting out a camp fire by peeing on it!
> 
> I remember the nuances of how I acted around girls throughout the years. I know for a fact that my experience would have been very different if girls were present. The very limited supervision and expectation that us young men conduct ourselves without adult supervision was a major characteristic of scouting. That's not possible with post puberty coed. Ask any 4-H summer camp attendee if they know of any stories.
> 
> It just won't be the same. Worse, better or no difference- it's not the same and what it was is what I wanted for my sons.


You mean those 4H graduates that surround me who run successful farms and businesses, have successful marriages and happy families, staff most of the local volunteer fire departments and engage deeply in a wide variety of civic activities? Those 4Hers who’s experience was so tainted by being part of a coed organization they couldn’t possibly know how to grow up to be “real” men. Maybe I will. But I’ve already heard many of those stories. Some are quite funny. Some were even told by their wives about them.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> Again, where did I ever say boys couldn’t have time with just other boys? It’s quite a stretch to blame whatever indiscretions your father engaged in on his lack of childhood “boys only time” but I guess any excuse will do.
> 
> How does peeing on a fire make one a better man? How does that translate to a more productive adulthood? Isn’t that the contention?


While you have not directly stated boys should not be allowed time together without girls, your questioning of it does imply that you don't think it's needed. The Boy Scouts offered just that kinda guy time. Making scouting coed denys boys that kinda time. Why do you think they should not have that? Male camaraderie is important to men.


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## Prismseed (Sep 14, 2009)

Mileage may vary. Cub scouts was great for me, boy scouts it was just a bunch of pubescent kids reenacting the show 'Jackass' and going camping at a tourist trap of a town with a haunted history 3 hours from where I lived. Oh and a bunch of racist and sexist jokes.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> While you have not directly stated boys should not be allowed time together without girls, your questioning of it does imply that you don't think it's needed. The Boy Scouts offered just that kinda guy time. Making scouting coed denys boys that kinda time. Why do you think they should not have that? Male camaraderie is important to men.


Again, I’ve never said they shouldn’t. I’ve never said such time shouldn’t happen. You shouldn’t assume things I’ve never said.

You could answer my questions, though.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Prismseed said:


> Mileage may vary. Cub scouts was great for me, boy scouts it was just a bunch of pubescent kids reenacting the show 'Jackass' and going camping at a tourist trap of a town with a haunted history 3 hours from where I lived. Oh and a bunch of racist and sexist jokes.


All of which made you a “better” man?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> Again, I’ve never said they shouldn’t. I’ve never said such time shouldn’t happen. You shouldn’t assume things I’ve never said.
> 
> You could answer my questions, though.


Well that's good... So you are indeed in favor of keeping girls out of the Boy Scouts. Or am I assuming too much again? I thought I had answered your questions, what have I missed?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Well that's good... So you are indeed in favor of keeping girls out of the Boy Scouts. Or am I assuming too much again? I thought I had answered your questions, what have I missed?


As usual, your assumptions are yours alone and miss the point. The scouts are free to set their rules. Want a girls free club- start one.

As for the question left unanswered- it’s the one with this “?” after the words you left unanswered. You can choose from three.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> As usual, your assumptions are yours alone and miss the point. The scouts are free to set their rules. Want a girls free club- start one.
> 
> As for the question left unanswered- it’s the one with this “?” after the words you left unanswered. You can choose from three.


The Boy Scouts provided a girl free environment. So please answer my question, are you in favor of keeping it that way or not. This one should be easy... Yes for being in favor of keeping girls out, no for being in favor of letting girls in?
Now to answer your questions.... Again



mmoetc said:


> How does peeing on a fire make one a better man? How does that translate to a more productive adulthood? Isn’t that the contention?


the ability to pee on a fire openly without fear of reprocussions promotes male camraderi, a sense of freedom, and is just plain old fun. Fun is an essential ingredient in a normal life.
How it translates into a more productive adulthood is that as an adult they have some good positive experiences to draw from in their decision making processes. Not only that, they will have cool stories to tell their grand children.
Yes, that is the contention.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the Boy Scouts of America have 48 years experience with girls 14-18 , I can assure you the 7-13 is certainly no more difficult than 14-18.
As a parent of 2 girls who tried both local troops and Juliette scouts this is independence girl scouting , the GS organization at least in my part of the state is not well run.

your not going to fix GS with a post here or anywhere , it will take dedicated people to volunteer their time and work their way up in the organization with great perseverance to make it what it should be.
the thousands of volunteers with hundreds of thousands of volunteer hours it would take to change GS could do so much more working with BSA and co-ed troops.

as a former BSA leader I can tell you we have many female siblings already participating in many of the activities especially in cubs , we have sisters coming with to summer camp because that is the only way the parents can come.

it is also important to recognize that the charter organizations decide if it will have separate boy and girl troops or a co-ed troop. as an example the LDS church one of the largest charter organizations may very well choose to have separate troops. while many of the American Legion or VFW charter organizations may choose co-ed.

it was hard to have to tell the girls who were there and doing the activities that they can't be recognized for their work.

so making BSA co-ed from tiger to eagle just makes sense I scout leaders who were pushing for girls to be recognized by BSA national, it provides for better family unity , better accessibility to good leaders because your not pulling families in two directions.I knew one day we would see it , I was a little surprised to see it this soon , but good surprised that they could see the need and make the adjustment.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> The Boy Scouts provided a girl free environment. So please answer my question, are you in favor of keeping it that way or not. This one should be easy... Yes for being in favor of keeping girls out, no for being in favor of letting girls in?
> Now to answer your questions.... Again
> 
> the ability to pee on a fire openly without fear of reprocussions promotes male camraderi, a sense of freedom, and is just plain old fun. Fun is an essential ingredient in a normal life.
> ...



I think you may be a bit removed from modern scouting , in the last 10 years of scouting that I have been involved in the times there wasn't a mother or sister around were very slim. 

there are so many mothers raising boys with little or no help from the father using scouts as a place to find positive male role models and as a way to give the boys the activities and experience they want , in a structure that lets the mothers help were they can but also to share the load.

not being able to pee on the fire is a small price to pay for a new generation of exceptional and prepared young women that can be the strong leaders , partners and citizens along side our exceptional and prepared young men.

if we don't find a way to up the game and prepare exceptions strong and prepared young women in the same way we prepare exceptional , strong and prepared young men. Who will lead beside them? Where will they find their partners in making a better world?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> The Boy Scouts provided a girl free environment. So please answer my question, are you in favor of keeping it that way or not. This one should be easy... Yes for being in favor of keeping girls out, no for being in favor of letting girls in?
> Now to answer your questions.... Again
> 
> the ability to pee on a fire openly without fear of reprocussions promotes male camraderi, a sense of freedom, and is just plain old fun. Fun is an essential ingredient in a normal life.
> ...


Thanks for finally answering my questions. I’d say just as much fun can be had with girls present as without but your childhood experiences may have differed. I’d also say that enhancing camaraderie and cooperation and the ability to work together and respect the decisions of everyone, not just the young boy’s network, is a vital part of growing up and learning to be a productive, happy adult. When better to start learning that everyone can contribute than when young?

The difficulty in answering your question is, as others have pointed out, that girls werent excluded from scouting before. They participated in many ways, officially and unofficially. I’m content to let the scouts decide and if they decide to expand the official role of girls in their organization I’d see it as a positive thing, not a threat to some idyllic ,though probably inaccurate, remembrance of days past.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> Thanks for finally answering my questions. I’d say just as much fun can be had with girls present as without but your childhood experiences may have differed. I’d also say that enhancing camaraderie and cooperation and the ability to work together and respect the decisions of everyone, not just the young boy’s network, is a vital part of growing up and learning to be a productive, happy adult.
> *When better to start learning that everyone can contribute than when young?*
> 
> The difficulty in answering your question is, as others have pointed out, that girls werent excluded from scouting before. They participated in many ways, officially and unofficially. I’m content to let the scouts decide and if they decide to expand the official role of girls in their organization I’d see it as a positive thing, not a threat to some idilic, though probably inaccurate, remembrance of days past.


young is a fine time, but there are many other opportunities for that. School comes to mind. Most schools are coed girls and boys all able to mingle, learn how to work together, social skills etc.

My question is not difficult at all, a simple yes, I think we should deny the boys their chance to just be boys once in a while and allow girls in, or no, I think boys should be able to experience a little fun time by themselves.

Just for clarification I was never in the Boy Scouts.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> young is a fine time, but there are many other opportunities for that. School comes to mind. Most schools are coed girls and boys all able to mingle, learn how to work together, social skills etc.
> 
> My question is not difficult at all, a simple yes, I think we should deny the boys their chance to just be boys once in a while and allow girls in, or no, I think boys should be able to experience a little fun time by themselves.
> 
> Just for clarification I was never in the Boy Scouts.


You’ve changed your question. It is now easy to answer. Boys should be allowed to be boys once in a while. I’ve never said anything to the contrary.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> You’ve changed your question. It is now easy to answer. Boys should be allowed to be boys once in a while. I’ve never said anything to the contrary.


Can we take that as a yes they should be allowed to be Boy Scouts without having girls around them? Or do you think they need to form yet another club to be infiltrated by the female gender later?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Can we take that as a yes they should be allowed to be Boy Scouts without having girls around them? Or do you think they need to form yet another club to be infiltrated by the female gender later?


You can take it any way you wish but before you declare anything you should read my answers. All of them. The Boy Scouts are free to make whatever rules suit them and getting boys together to play and interact needn’t be done by any orgznization. Simple parenting will do. You should open yourself to all possibilities.

ETA- if you’d bothered to read and understand other posters who are involved in the BSA you would know that there is nothing in the new rules precluding all male scout troops making your concerns largely unwarranted.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> You can take it any way you wish but before you declare anything you should read my answers. All of them. The Boy Scouts are free to make whatever rules suit them and getting boys together to play and interact needn’t be done by any orgznization. Simple parenting will do. You should open yourself to all possibilities.
> 
> ETA- if you’d bothered to read and understand other posters who are involved in the BSA you would know that there is nothing in the new rules precluding all male scout troops making your concerns largely unwarranted.


Very good! You have now avoided my question six times. All I'm asking is for your opinion on the base issue in question. Should (in your opinion) girls be excluded from the Boy Scouts? Yes or no. I'm not interested at this point about the whys and wherefore, just a simple yes or no.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Very good! You have now avoided my question six times. All I'm asking is for your opinion on the base issue in question. Should (in your opinion) girls be excluded from the Boy Scouts? Yes or no. I'm not interested at this point about the whys and wherefore, just a simple yes or no.


Asked and answered counselor. But it’s interesting that you’re back to a question different than your last. I don’t care one way or the other is just as valid an answer as your two choices. Choices which have been shown to be irrelevant.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> Asked and answered counselor. But it’s interesting that you’re back to a question different than your last. I don’t care one way or the other is just as valid an answer as your two choices. Choices which have been shown to be irrelevant.


So, for the seventh time, same question posed every time but just for will add a couple more options.
Do you think girls should be allowed in the Boy Scouts?
1. Yes
2. No
3. I don't care one way or the other.
4. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds that I might have to actually commit to an opinion.
Now can you take a shot at a straight multiple choice answer?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> So, for the seventh time, same question posed every time but just for will add one more option....
> Do you think girls should be allowed in the Boy Scouts?
> 1. Yes
> 2. No
> ...


It’s a different question again. If you’ll go back you’ll see I’ve answered even those assumptions of what you thought I said not so cleverly disguised as “questions”. 

I’ll try to make it clear to you. I don’t really care what the Boy Scouts decide. It’s the same stance I’ve taken since you first asked. It’s up to them. Sorry if that was to subtle for you. I could have gone off on a tangent about my father or played the childish I can’t tell you such secrets game but I chose instead to answer your question each and every time even while pointing out why the questions themselves had no relevance. 
And here’s, once again, why they lack relevance. Since girls already are involved in scouting and have been for years in the older categories seemingly without all the disruption and problems you seem to think will ensue it seems to be a bit of a moot question. Many of the troop leaders who have led the youngest scouts on hikes, camping trips, and started them on that path to manhood have been women. I’m sure you’re familiar with the term “Den Mother”? How could boys ever be boys with that much estrogen around?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> It’s a different question again. If you’ll go back you’ll see I’ve answered even those assumptions of what you thought I said not so cleverly disguised as “questions”.
> 
> I’ll try to make it clear to you. I don’t really care what the Boy Scouts decide. It’s the same stance I’ve taken since you first asked. It’s up to them. Sorry if that was to subtle for you. I could have gone off on a tangent about my father or played the childish I can’t tell you such secrets game but I chose instead to answer your question each and every time even while pointing out why the questions themselves had no relevance.
> And here’s, once again, why they lack relevance. Since girls already are involved in scouting and have been for years in the older categories seemingly without all the disruption and problems you seem to think will ensue it seems to be a bit of a moot question. Many of the troop leaders who have led the youngest scouts on hikes, camping trips, and started them on that path to manhood have been women. I’m sure you’re familiar with the term “Den Mother”? How could boys ever be boys with that much estrogen around?


Twas the same question, this was attempt eight. (I've never asked you what you thought about what the Boy Scouts decide) I'm forced to conclude that you think it's fine as a frogs hair split three ways that boys need to have girls present in any social setting. New question here.... Do you think girls should be required to allow boys be present during any social event/activity as well?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Twas the same question, this was attempt eight. (I've never asked you what you thought about what the Boy Scouts decide) I'm forced to conclude that you think it's fine as a frogs hair split three ways that boys need to have girls present in any social setting. New question here.... Do you think girls should be required to allow boys be present during any social event/activity as well?


I’m not really sure how “I don’t really care what the Boy Scouts decide” differs from “I don’t care one way or the other” about a question directly referencing the decision of the Boy Scouts. If I don’t care what the Boy Scouts decide why would I care, one way or the other about the subject of the decision. Both are fine with me. Their organization, their choice. Simple enough?

Since the premise of what you think I believe is demonstrably false your question based on that premise has no validity. I have no objection to boys having time just among boys or girls among girls nor have I ever stated such a thing. In fact, I’ve stated the opposite. I do applaud the Boy Scouts for recognizing that all situations and dynamics are different and allowing the sponsors of said troops to decide their makeup, male only, female only or coed, as was pointed out earlier by one directly involved. It’s good when all options are explored.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> I’m not really sure how “I don’t really care what the Boy Scouts decide” differs from “I don’t care one way or the other” about a question directly referencing the decision of the Boy Scouts. If I don’t care what the Boy Scouts decide why would I care, one way or the other about the subject of the decision. Both are fine with me. Their organization, their choice. Simple enough?
> 
> Since the premise of what you think I believe is demonstrably false your question based on that premise has no validity. I have no objection to boys having time just among boys or girls among girls nor have I ever stated such a thing. In fact, I’ve stated the opposite. I do applaud the Boy Scouts for recognizing that all situations and dynamics are different and allowing the sponsors of said troops to decide their makeup, male only, female only or coed, as was pointed out earlier by one directly involved. It’s good when all options are explored.


Ok, in all fairness here I've been rethinking my wording there on that part about your not caring about what decision the Boy Scouts arrive at. I get that. My question was not well worded. My question was about if you cared about their decision one way or the other, not that it was up to them to decide. Of course it's their decision to make. Just like its a woman's decision to make about carrying a pregnancy to full term. That one also begs the question of "is she making a good decision if she opts not to carry to term?". Me? I think the woman is making a very poor choice, but it's up to her, with the Boy Scouts I also think if they opt to go coed, it's a mighty poor decision. Theirs to make, just a durn poor choice.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, in all fairness here I've been rethinking my wording there on that part about your not caring about what decision the Boy Scouts arrive at. I get that. My question was not well worded. My question was about if you cared about their decision one way or the other, not that it was up to them to decide. Of course it's their decision to make. Just like its a woman's decision to make about carrying a pregnancy to full term. That one also begs the question of "is she making a good decision if she opts not to carry to term?". Me? I think the woman is making a very poor choice, but it's up to her, with the Boy Scouts I also think if they opt to go coed, it's a mighty poor decision. Theirs to make, just a durn poor choice.


Because boys won’t be able to pee on fires and become men?

They’re already coed at the upper levels and 3% of scoutmasters are women. 

“Boy Scout officials say the growing number of female scoutmasters has not adversely affected its programs or its mandate. Female scoutmasters receive the same training as male scoutmasters. Scouts are still taught skills like knot tying, wood carving and fire starting. And they are still inculcated with the values expressed in the Boy Scout law: trustworthiness, loyalty, obedience, cleanliness and bravery. Human Ideals, Not Male Ones”

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/31/n...-of-men-boy-scouts-change.html?pagewanted=all


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> Because boys won’t be able to pee on fires and become men?
> 
> They’re already coed at the upper levels and 3% of scoutmasters are women.
> 
> ...


Yep. Den mothers have been in the game for years. Most likely tend to find something to busy themselves with when the fire get low late at night. Somehow I don't think it's quite the same situation as have a bunch of girls hanging out with the boys. The boys, if they've been taught any manners whatsoever, are not going to act or feel as free to discuss some topics with girls standing there beside them.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yep. Den mothers have been in the game for years. Most likely tend to find something to busy themselves with when the fire get low late at night. Somehow I don't think it's quite the same situation as have a bunch of girls hanging out with the boys. The boys, if they've been taught any manners whatsoever, are not going to act or feel as free to discuss some topics with girls standing there beside them.


Given the attitudes shown by some in other threads about women that might not be the worst outcome. Those young boys might just learn to treat those young girls as equals and with respect.


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## Southern Forest (May 5, 2012)

You imply that Boy Scouts somehow taught otherwise. It did not.

But, it is all moot. Girls were already in Venture scouting, STEM, and other Scouting and now Boy Scouts is no more. The name, the traditions, all must go, taken down for the sake of proof-of-concept. Now there must be separate male-female latrines, now there must be special considerations for the girls, now merit badges will have to be adjusted for the desires of girls, now the organization - which already has been gutted for a decade - will evolve into what it wasn't. Just call it Scouting. Those outside have deemed those inside must change, and so they have.

And boys are thus further marginalized and pushed aside. Where shall I send flowers for the victory party?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> Given the attitudes shown by some in other threads about women that might not be the worst outcome. Those young boys might just learn to treat those young girls as equals and with respect.


This concept has always cracked me up... What makes anyone think that men and women are equal?!?! Women are so far superior to men there is simply no comparison! Case in point... I've never heard of a man giving birth to a brand new human being.... Women squeeze them out routinely, no big deal. A lot of men may know how to build their house, but it's usually the woman that turns it into a home. They also know how, usually, to keep it when they tire of the bum. Nope we ain't the same at all, and ain't never going to be equal.... I wouldn't have it any other way though.... Viva le difference!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Southern Forest said:


> You imply that Boy Scouts somehow taught otherwise. It did not.
> 
> But, it is all moot. Girls were already in Venture scouting, STEM, and other Scouting and now Boy Scouts is no more. The name, the traditions, all must go, taken down for the sake of proof-of-concept. Now there must be separate male-female latrines, now there must be special considerations for the girls, now merit badges will have to be adjusted for the desires of girls, now the organization - which already has been gutted for a decade - will evolve into what it wasn't. Just call it Scouting. Those outside have deemed those inside must change, and so they have.
> 
> And boys are thus further marginalized and pushed aside. Where shall I send flowers for the victory party?


What merit badges would have to be adjusted? I reviewed the rather comprehensive list I found on wiki and it looks to me like there's something for everybody. 

With the exception of bugling, chess and a few other less outdoors focused badges, my daughter would have had no problem meeting expectations. Perhaps I'm a bit narrow minded but I suspect the kids earning their chess, animation, digital technology and game design merit badges aren't the kind of young men who are out urinating on campfires. 

Neither Boy Scouts or Girl Guides were available for my kids so I would be curious as to what traditions have been destroyed and how you feel boys have been marginalized by the organization.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

wr said:


> What merit badges would have to be adjusted? I reviewed the rather comprehensive list I found on wiki and it looks to me like there's something for everybody.
> 
> With the exception of bugling, chess and a few other less outdoors focused badges, my daughter would have had no problem meeting expectations. Perhaps I'm a bit narrow minded but I suspect the kids earning their chess, animation, digital technology and game design merit badges aren't the kind of young men who are out urinating on campfires.
> 
> Neither Boy Scouts or Girl Guides were available for my kids so I would be curious as to what traditions have been destroyed and how you feel boys have been marginalized by the organization.


Ive played numerous games of chess on boards made with charcoal for black squares scratched out on campground table tops, using crushed beer cans for the players, PBR cans (blue on white backgrounds) and old Milwaukee (red on white back grounds), let's not sell chess players short here.  my opponents ranged from happy hippie types to master carpenters, all of which were very much at home living in the woods doing their homesteading stuff. My take on this isn't about the badges, it about letting boys be boys while they can. All too soon they will be men, many of whom will be promptly emasculated by their wives.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Southern Forest said:


> You imply that Boy Scouts somehow taught otherwise. It did not.
> 
> But, it is all moot. Girls were already in Venture scouting, STEM, and other Scouting and now Boy Scouts is no more. The name, the traditions, all must go, taken down for the sake of proof-of-concept. Now there must be separate male-female latrines, now there must be special considerations for the girls, now merit badges will have to be adjusted for the desires of girls, now the organization - which already has been gutted for a decade - will evolve into what it wasn't. Just call it Scouting. Those outside have deemed those inside must change, and so they have.
> 
> And boys are thus further marginalized and pushed aside. Where shall I send flowers for the victory party?


No, it’s not what the scouts teach. It’s the implication of what boys teach boys and why girls shouldn’t be allowed to interfere with such teaching and “male bonding” that I refer to.

I seldom find that opening opportunities to one group marginalizes another near as effectively as denying opportunity does.


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## Prismseed (Sep 14, 2009)

You two should just get a room and spare us all this flirting.


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## Dustin (Apr 20, 2011)

If you weren't part of the Boy Scouts, respectfully, your opinion is based on perception, not experience.

During OA events - overnight weekends at camp in the woods, I had dozens and dozens of young teen scouts, lead by a dozen older teen scouts and supervised from afar by only a handful of adults. It was the first time I ever felt like I was truly responsible for myself. There was no adult telling me I had to do this or that or hovering over me.

That experience simply would not be allowed with co-ed scouting. 99% of camp space at night is prime for illicit teen activity between male and female. That's cool after sports practice down the railroad track, but not for what I wanted for my Boys in the Boy Scouts.

In the future, I believe the BSA will develop fewer future leaders of the world than prior, regardless of sex and because of these decisions.


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## Prismseed (Sep 14, 2009)

Dustin said:


> During OA events - overnight weekends at camp in the woods, I had dozens and dozens of young teen scouts, lead by a dozen older teen scouts and supervised from afar by only a handful of adults. It was the first time I ever felt like I was truly responsible for myself. There was no adult telling me I had to do this or that or hovering over me.
> 
> That experience simply would not be allowed with co-ed scouting. 99% of camp space at night is prime for illicit teen activity between male and female. That's cool after sports practice down the railroad track, but not for what I wanted for my Boys in the Boy Scouts.


I totally understand the concern and agree coed camping is not going to be as simple as boys only. But there is nothing stopping a preservation of the guy only events. If parents like yourself are concerned enough to maintain this ritual you can step up and coordinate special events. It is still a possibility, just not the only one any more.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Prismseed said:


> You two should just get a room and spare us all this flirting.


I got a good chuckle out of this. Thanks!


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## Prismseed (Sep 14, 2009)

When you talk as much as I do eventually you say something funny.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

The Boy Scouts was a great experiment with many success. It had one goal, to teach young boys to be responsible men.

Unfortunately that goal does not sit well with some, so the organization will be slowly tainted by their opinion out of existence. Watered down to lose all significance.

It's a shame. I think back to my days in Scouting as being some of the best days of my life. It gave me incredible skills that made me a better person. I feel sorry for those who will never experience those times.

It's a lose / lose situation.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

JJ Grandits said:


> The Boy Scouts was a great experiment with many success. It had one goal, to teach young boys to be responsible men.
> 
> Unfortunately that goal does not sit well with some, so the organization will be slowly tainted by their opinion out of existence. Watered down to lose all significance.
> 
> ...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> Did the girl scouts go belly up?


Probably a poor choice of words in this context.


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## Prismseed (Sep 14, 2009)

I think it is sad the support the boy scouts lose as they make these decisions. When they decided to allow gay scouts/leaders groups in my local community stopped donating to support the troop. They're still trying to give boys a wonderful opportunity and it isn't like there is another organization out there that offers anything like it.

If you insist on turning your back on them please consider creating/supporting an alternative.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Prismseed said:


> I think it is sad the support the boy scouts lose as they make these decisions. When they decided to allow gay scouts/leaders groups in my local community stopped donating to support the troop. They're still trying to give boys a wonderful opportunity and it isn't like there is another organization out there that offers anything like it.
> 
> If you insist on turning your back on them please consider creating/supporting an alternative.


Since many Boy Scout meetings are held in local churches, it was clear that they'd lose that meeting place when they accepted gays.
I would think that instead of turning their backs on Boy Scouts, the churches might offer sessions at the church to drive the gay demons out of them.........


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## Southern Forest (May 5, 2012)

Hmm, as a Gideon and Deacon of my local Presbyterian Church, I can't help but wonder if you are being tongue-in-cheek or painting with that broad brush of intolerance that seems so common these days. Bet you figure we kicked them out and then started handling snakes, eh?

Truth be told, just as young nubile girls probably should not spend weekends out in the woods with heterosexual men, there were many parents hesitant about letting their 15 year old sons with a gay scout master in the woods. And, given that homosexuality is viewed as a sin, then churches, if they are to be true their beliefs, must act accordingly. But, of course, mentioning that immediately draws the label of bigot or homophobe whilst others imagine scenes of witch-burning. All, of course, are clever diversions to legitimate concerns parents might have. It is true that male teachers have inappropriate relationships with female students (and female teachers with male students) often enough that is clear that adults that might have a sexual interest in the youth they oversee should not find themselves in situations where they might have opportunities to be alone with them.


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## Prismseed (Sep 14, 2009)

Southern Forest said:


> Hmm, as a Gideon and Deacon of my local Presbyterian Church, I can't help but wonder if you are being tongue-in-cheek or painting with that broad brush of intolerance that seems so common these days. Bet you figure we kicked them out and then started handling snakes, eh?


Not sure if this is directed to me or Haypoint. If me I was referring to local community groups like the Rotary and Lions club. One such group (that I will not name as it isn't fit to paint the entire organization by the actions of one individual club) was a routine supporter of the scouts. But after permitting gays the scouts asked as they usually do for a contribution and behind closed doors of a meeting it was decided not to fund them any more.


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## Southern Forest (May 5, 2012)

I was also president of the Lions Club (3rd vice, then 2nd vice, then 1st vice, then pres). The Rotarians support my son's troop.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Sorry, Southern Forest, I was making a joke. As the Libs push their agenda further down everyone's throat, painting everyone else as intolerant kooks, the Left's expectation that we all adopt a "live and let live" on every piece of their culture shifting agenda, while showing their intolerance to God, history and capitalism.


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## Prismseed (Sep 14, 2009)

Southern Forest said:


> I was also president of the Lions Club


I never lived close to one until moving recently. There is one in the closest town that is really active that I've been meaning to look into.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

JJ Grandits said:


> The Boy Scouts was a great experiment with many success. It had one goal, to teach young boys to be responsible men.
> 
> Unfortunately that goal does not sit well with some, so the organization will be slowly tainted by their opinion out of existence. Watered down to lose all significance.
> 
> ...


I, too, feel sorry for those who will lose out on the experience of scouting because some short sighted adults make the decision to deny them the opportunity. Those organizations are free to take their balls and go home but as was pointed out earlier the new guidelines don’t say they must allow girls only that they may. It would be nice if they took those balls and organized their own game as an alternative.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I agree.
The old saying "If it ain't broken don't fix it" applies with the Boy Scouts.
As with any organization there are shortcomings, but the benefits by far outweighed them.
Some people expect perfect and they expect perfect only on their terms. Hopefully Scouting will survive. As I've posted before on many threads, liberalism is dying. Maybe their demise will happen while there's still something left to save.


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