# Do we worry too much?



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

In the lunch room today someone was discussing processing pickles. They were put in a hot oven (shut off ) and left overnight. By morning none of the jars had sealed.

They were left on the counter and by the time this person returned from work, the jars had sealed. They figured they'd be safe for short term storage (like a year) but not longer. 

Then we got into a discussion (I work in a rural commuinty) and heard lots of "that is the way Granny/Mom did it and no one ever got sick" for all kinds of what is now considered unsafe practices.

I'm convinced most of the poeple I work with believe the only purpose of canning is to get the jar to seal, so if they've found a "short cut" that ends up with a sealed jar, they are fine with that.

One coworker makes chunky salsa. He likes lots of onion and peppers, but didn't like the vinegar so cut that way down. He said he discovered that if he put the hot salsa in a jar and put the lid on, it would seal as it cooled, so he decided he could skip the waterbath all together - a seal is a seal, right?

BUT - he has been doing it this way for years, and gives away a lot of salsa and has never heard of anyone getting sick from it. 


I think I can honestly say that well over half the people I know (online and in person) do not follow safe, approved canning methods and according to them, their families never have. Yet I don't know a single person that has come down with a serious illness from eating homed canned goods. Everyone knows to toss things that don't look or smell good, or where seals have broken.

Now, I believe in the logic behind safe canning and follow those methods, but I wonder if maybe we've been convinced the risk is way greater than it actually is. 

Cathy


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## Gladrags (Jul 13, 2010)

Good topic; many people would say "Why risk it?" It's hard to argue with that. If Process A leaves the least little shred of doubt as to its safety, and Process B has been proven to be safe, it would make sense to choose Process B.

But ... Process A has been successful for our mothers and grandmothers. Why fix what ain't broke?

I'm on the fence about it; I can see both sides. I admit to being a bit of a renegade myself, because I, too, have canned my own salsa recipe, and I tinker with ingredients almost every time I make something.

Although the salsa is mostly tomatoes and has a lot of (natural, not bottled) lime juice in it, and is processed for the same amount of time as whole tomatoes, that practice does flout a lot of guidelines. And I did throw some away recently -- the stuff was three years old, but still ...

My mom was telling me just the other day how my grandmother would can rabbits in a boiling water bath. Yipe. (nevermind the thought of Thumper stuffed into a jar ...)


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## silverbackMP (Dec 4, 2005)

A good chunk of the time when people get the "flu" it is actually food poisoning. Most diarria is food poisoning. It may not be deadly food poisoning but it is food poisoning none the less.

That being said both times I've has serious food poisoning (not hospitalized but wishing I were dead) were from fast food places and not home canning.


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## kabri (May 14, 2002)

Great topic! I got into a huge argument with a neighbor over this last month! She and I were going to make raspberry jam with another neighbor who had never made it before and is new to canning. I Insisted on doing water bath. She said been doing inverting for years and no problem. My logic was why complicate things, and why teach a method that is not really sanctioned by USDA now? I actually threw away "jam" that a co-worker made last year that had not been water-bathed. 

Then again, as above poster mentioned, I've never gotten sick from home processed food, but sure have from restaraunt/fast food!!!!


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

I _have_ wondered what has prompted USDA to keep changing the guidelines. What conditions have changed that would cause unsafe results, according to their claims? But I'm just paranoid enough to keep following the guidelines.

And we, too, have only gotten sick from fast food/restaurant food.


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## Prickle (May 9, 2009)

The dangers of open kettle canning have been known since at least the 1920's. I've seen a canning book from the 20's that specifically says it doesn't recommend it.

I've got a cookbook from WWII that has a canning section that says the only safe way to can low acid foods is to pressure can. I'm sure the information was out there before then. 

This information isn't new at all. They haven't changed their recommendations all that much since the turn of the last century. With the 20th century came new and better ways of testing for spoilage organisms.

They have changed their opinions on how to process some foods, like tomatoes. Growing conditions and tomato breeding have changed the acidity of modern tomatoes. 

I think during the 80's they retested most of the old recipes and changed their minds on some of them. Certain foods like pureed squash was found to be too difficult to process at home because of density issues.

There are also some foods they don't recommend for canning because they haven't been tested at all. 

The USDA doesn't have much money for anything canning related anymore. It was a dying art until a couple years ago. They have to ere on the side of caution so they can't be blamed if people do get sick.

I even think some of their cautions are way out there, but they have to cover their patooties. I'd rather follow the patootie covering guidelines than make someone sick.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

I am absoultely terrified of making the family sick with canning. Maybe not as much as I was a couple of years ago but I do worry. Heck, I still haven't brought myself to eat one of the chickens I processed in the backyard 3 weeks ago. 

But- I was raised by a woman who was a germaphobe. She still is very much an over the top worrier when it comes to food safety. I tried to take potato salad outside for a cookout and she ended up moving the entire party inside the house. Literally, we cooked on the grill and brought the food inside because she thought it was safer. 

I follow the directions almost to a "t". The only thing I've been a little lax on is canning on the most perfect fruit. I do cut the bad spots out and throw them away but I still use the remaining fruit. I just can't see throwing out half a tomato because the other half is smushy, you know?


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## bluebird2o2 (Feb 14, 2007)

I have been canning many years,noone have gotten sick from my food.Anything looks or smells funny i throw it out.i canned tomatoes for years with no added lemon juice the way my grandmother did.i didnt know i was supposed too.althought i didnt use the lower acid pink tomatoes.


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## Gladrags (Jul 13, 2010)

PrettyPaisley said:


> I just can't see throwing out half a tomato because the other half is smushy, you know?


Nor can I. I've used plenty a half-tomato!


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I've been canning with my mom since i had to stand on a chair in front of the sink to slip the skins off blanched tomatoes. Mom was afraid of pressure cookers, so we didn't cann anything that need it. When I married at 18, got a pressure canner for a wedding present. I've followed the book, but all this lemon juice and stuff, no. We've never been sick from any of our food. Once in a while a lid will come unsealed, which I presume it was never sealed right and rotting popped it off. If that happens, I can usally smell it when going in the pantry. The worst case of food posining I ever got, from eating the Tartar sause at a restrant going cross country on a Harley on the way to my brother's wedding. that was bad.


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## coalroadcabin (Jun 16, 2004)

I looked at the stats from the CDC a couple of weeks ago. I know botulism isn't the only food poisoning but since it can be fatal, it's the one I worried about the most. 

This from the CDC website:



> Foodborne botulism, a potentially lethal neuroparalytic disease, is caused by ingesting preformed Clostridium botulinum neurotoxin. We reviewed surveillance data and reports from 1990 to 2000. Of 263 cases from 160 foodborne botulism events (episode of one or more related cases) in the United States, 103 (39%) cases and 58 events occurred in Alaska. Patients' median age was 48 years; 154 (59%) were female; the case-fatality rate was 4%. The median number of cases per event was 1 (range 1â17). Toxin type A caused 51% of all cases; toxin type E caused 90% of Alaska cases. A particular food was implicated in 126 (79%) events. In the lower 49 states, a noncommercial food item was implicated in 70 (91%) events, most commonly home-canned vegetables (44%). Two restaurant-associated outbreaks affected 25 persons. All Alaska cases were attributable to traditional Alaska Native foods. Botulism prevention efforts should be focused on those who preserve food at home, Alaska Natives, and restaurant workers.


There is more info here: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol10no9/03-0745.htm

Here is another quote from the CDC site (notice the types of food attributed to a botulism event)



> During the period under study, 60 events were caused by type A botulinum toxin. The implicated foods in 40 (50%) were home-canned products (27 vegetable items, two home-canned soups, two home-canned tuna items, one each home-canned tomato juice, garlic-in-oil, and stew). Other implicated home-prepared foods included five events from potato salad or potatoes, four from homemade soup, two from homemade sausage, and one from each of the following: roast beef, liver patÃ©, bread pudding, salsa, apple pie, hamburger, and chili. In 18 (23%) events caused by botulinum toxin type A, the specific food vehicle was not identified.




I gather from these statistics that while botulism is rare - 163 events in 10 years - it does happen. And it appears that mishandling of prepared foods that aren't preserved (like potato salad) can cause an outbreak too.

I always followed the canning instructions that came with my pressure canner (circa 1980) But I never bothered to check that the instructions had changed over the years. I had no idea I was supposed to be adding acid to my tomatoes and I had no idea I was supposed to exhaust my canner. BUT, now that I know, why would I not use the recommended process? It's better than botulism, isn't it?


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## Vickie44 (Jul 27, 2010)

My sister had Clostridium infection , was in hospital for weeks and in really bad shape. They are not sure where it came from, she doesnt can nor did she have anything home preserved. I would be cautious as I would never want to see anyone go through that again.I used to do open kettle as mom did but no more


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## PrincessFerf (Apr 25, 2008)

I wasn't aware that I should be adding another source of acid to my spaghetti sauce. I don't put any other veggies in there beyond tomatoes and spices... I guess I'll have to read up on how I should be modifying my recipe. 

I just used a canning recipe for salsa last weekend. Not only was there a ton of tomatoes in it, but also lime juice AND vinegar. 

I can't imagine NOT using a water bath for my canning. I already leave my jars in the boiling pot for at least 5 extra minutes than what the recipe calls for... just to be safe. 

Like many of you have said, I've gotten sick more often from restaurant food than anything made at home (except for a dip my mom made last Thanksgiving... I won't go off-topic about her lack of cooking skills and why we usually just ask her to bring rolls to parties)


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## judylou (Jun 19, 2009)

Excellent post coalroadcabin.

Botulism toxin has no odor. It has no taste. It has no "look". It doesn't even break the seal on the jar in most cases. 

But when it exists due to food preserving carelessness, the toxin puts you or your child or your friend in Intensive Care on a respirator. Or worse. Your choice.


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## TJN66 (Aug 29, 2004)

Yeah...Im pretty fanatic about following the guidelines too. Although I will change out vinegar for lemon juice in salsa. I dont like the taste of the vinegar in it. The lemon juice flavor blends in better for my palate.


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## suitcase_sally (Mar 20, 2006)

Txsteader said:


> I _have_ wondered what has prompted USDA to keep changing the guidelines.


Can you say "litigation nation"?


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## suitcase_sally (Mar 20, 2006)

Prickle said:


> They have to ere on the side of caution so they can't be blamed if people do get sick.
> 
> I even think some of their cautions are way out there, but they have to cover their patooties. I'd rather follow the patootie covering guidelines than make someone sick.


Like I said, "litigation nation".


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## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

I'll keep following the guidelines - I like limited my risks when I can (hehehe!).

However I think I'll refrain from participating in any more canning discussions in the lunch room at work. Since my family hasn't lived here for 2- 3 generations, I can't know what I'm talking about. I mostly get upset when the older generation is passing their methods on to the younger set, with never a word about killing germs, bacteria or the dangers of botulism. It is one thing to understand the risks and accept them - a different thing to be told what you are doing is perfectly safe when you have no clue what the real risks are. 

But I also think I'll pass if anyone here wants to share thier canned goods. They may be willing to take the risks but I'm not. I've decided I won't eat someone else's canned goods unless I know for sure what their methods are. 

Cathy


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## judylou (Jun 19, 2009)

Only the most cynical and uninformed would think that all of the guideline changes made over the past 30 years are due to fear of litigation. 

The advances in scientific research in 30 years alone justify many of the changes. Then there is the surge in growth of new strains of bacteria and antibiotic resistant bacterias. Add to that the increase exposure and cross-contamination risks from a society changing from a thinly populated rural one to an over-crowded urban one.

Few are also aware that the vinegar grandma used in her pickles and such was usually 10% acetic acid or more rather than the standardized 5% available today or that grandma took care to hard-boil all her canned vegetable goods before eating them.

Cynicism and disinterest in readily available knowledge about risks do not serve anyone well. When it comes to anything. Not even food canning. Information and education about an issue before making a decision serves everyone.


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## suitcase_sally (Mar 20, 2006)

judylou said:


> Only the most cynical and uninformed would think that _all_ of the guideline changes made over the past 30 years are due to fear of litigation.


Did I say that? You have to admit I have a point.


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## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

judylou said:


> Few are also aware that the vinegar grandma used in her pickles and such was usually 10% acetic acid or more rather than the standardized 5% available today


This is another reason to be careful of where your recipe comes from. The vinegar in Europe is different then here. There the "normal" was 10%, but 15% and 5% were also on the shelf. I miss the 15% - did a great job cleaning and on my hair!


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## coalroadcabin (Jun 16, 2004)

Ohio dreamer said:


> This is another reason to be careful of where your recipe comes from. The vinegar in Europe is different then here. There the "normal" was 10%, but 15% and 5% were also on the shelf. I miss the 15% - did a great job cleaning and on my hair!


I bought a gallon of white vinegar at Kroger. I never looked just assumed it was 5% - nope, it was 4%! I used it to clean my coffee pot instead of for canning but lesson learned: Now I always look at %.


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## offGridNorthern (Jan 1, 2006)

well my mother-in-law does all the no-no's when it comes to canning. She re-uses the flat lids (over and over and over) and uses rings that I would toss ("what's a little bit of rust?") and when I talked about hot-water bath vs pressure canner she thinks I'm nuts. Her idea of sterilizing a jar is to run it under the tap. Oh, and the jars .... any old jar will do. She particularly likes the ones that store-bought tomatoe sauce comes in. 

And surprisingly no one has died.

But that doesn't mean that I eat her canned goods!


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

I got sick from clams in a restaurant otherwise have had no grim encounters with food poisoning so I'm pretty laid back on canning. If it is acidic or sweet or both, I fill jars and enjoy them later as long as they ping. (I have made jelly without waterbathing and am still alive as are my recipients but no longer do so.) Kicking and screaming "why, why, why?" I began adding lemon juice to my tomato sauce a couple of years ago; I add spices, garlic, etc when I open it to prepare. Lest you think me cavalier, I read the guidelines for what I put up and follow them pretty closely. I do not and will not even attempt to PC veggies or meat nor will I eat any done that way--even if it's cooked WELL after opening. Apparently we all have our comfort zones...


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## Murray in ME (May 10, 2002)

silverbackMP said:


> A good chunk of the time when people get the "flu" it is actually food poisoning. Most diarria is food poisoning. It may not be deadly food poisoning but it is food poisoning none the less.
> 
> That being said both times I've has serious food poisoning (not hospitalized but wishing I were dead) were from fast food places and not home canning.


That is very true. Food borne illness is much more prevalent than most people realize.

Another thing about food borne illness is that it isn't always easy to pinpoint what caused it. Many people don't realize that with the vast majority of food borne illness, it takes 12-72 hours or more before the onset of symptoms. Often, people will eat somewhere that breaks with their routine, restraunts or friends homes for example, and blame those places when they become sick within a couple of hours of eating there when in fact, they ate the contaminated food much earlier. I'm not talking about anyone here by the way, just people in general.


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## jmtinmi (Feb 25, 2009)

I like to think I follow guidelines pretty well. Why wouldn't you learn that way and then stick to it as habit.

I am also okay with modifying a stove top recipe for canning by canning for the longest timed ingredient or by knowing that the recipe is acidic enough. I always allow an additional minute or two while I get my canner's heat level dialed in, so I'm pretty confident in this regard. 

That being said, I will change the way I can potatoes since I read JudyLou explanation on why it is recommended to peel them. (I still won't peel them, but I will be adding 5 minutes to the time to insure adequate heat penetration)


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