# Just bought a Tobiano Bay Paint/with BLUE eyes!



## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

Hi everyone!
I just got this Tobiano Bay Paint from my horse trainer. I trained on her, and just LOVED her! Said I'd buy her in a minute. Of course they said "NO".
Well the trainer has bone cancer and has sold off her horses.
I got my horse! Sorry to say, the SAD way! But they are so HAPPY I got her, knowing she'll be well takin care of.
She is registered, which I did not know this at the time. That's REALLY COOL!
But just to share she has the most BEAUTIFUL Blue eyes!
Here's some pics, sorry she has to have her winter coat on, and dirty.
Her Registered Name is Scamps Spiteful Image. How do they come up with these names???
We call her Spitey!
Terry


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## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

Her Papers!


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

She looks a lot like her sire. I liked the picture of her looking at the camers with a whatch doing glance,


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

You may want to invest in some fly masks, keep one on her when outside. Those blue-eyed horse have often developed issues with the light eyes in sun. Especially if sun is intense, shining off snow, really bright in summer. Worse out West because the intensity of light is much higher than many of us Eastern States. I learned about this trying to grow some specialized Grasses that did poorly. Extension guy said our Michigan light was "not bright enough" to support the Buffalo Grass and let it thrive. Buffalo Grass was developed "out West" so that is where it does best in the brighter sunshine.

Problems with blue-eyed horses are why they were not common in the past. Owners didn't want to deal with their issues or shortened work life. My Grampa wouldn't even look at a horse with light eyes. Husband doesn't like them either, so nothing we own has light eyes. These days folks seem to like the light eyes, breed for them, will take the time to work around the issues, have Vet help. Still, problems crop up with those light eyes though maybe not for years.

Anyway, putting dark screen fly masks on the horse seem to help the eyes a bit. Kind of like wearing sunglasses can let you avoid Macular Degeneration. Light eyed folks have to be more careful, generally, than dark eyed people when being out in the bright light of outdoors. Snow is as bad as a sunny summer afternoon for bright light in your eyes, so sunglasses are recommended for wearing year around.

Glad you could get the horse you wanted. Sorry to hear about the Trainer and her problems. Hope she can recover her health.

I think I might go for a different name, since in our experience most horses live up to (or down to!) their names. So no Devil, 
Buck, type names here! With a name like Spite, that could be kind of ugly! Mage, from Image, could be a kindly, non-behavioral
type name.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Blue-eyed horses freak my husband out, so that was his one and only stipulation when I was looking to buy a horse - no blue eyes! 

I have a color question though -- what makes this horse a bay paint? (I see it on his pedigree, but still curious). I would think that is chestnut & white since there are no black points anywhere. But I will be the first to admit that I know nothing about horse color genetics...

She is cute! I think "Spitey" is cute too.


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## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

offthegrid said:


> Blue-eyed horses freak my husband out, so that was his one and only stipulation when I was looking to buy a horse - no blue eyes!
> 
> I have a color question though -- what makes this horse a bay paint? (I see it on his pedigree, but still curious). I would think that is chestnut & white since there are no black points anywhere. But I will be the first to admit that I know nothing about horse color genetics...
> 
> She is cute! I think "Spitey" is cute too.


Thanks!
I was just looking them up yesterday also. She is actually a Tobiano/Overo!
Paints can now be solid color as much as I have read. As long as they have the bloodlines.
The way I read it, Her markings are less than the bay on her, they are vertical and erratically shaped.
Overo's can have blue eyes, white faces.
Its very hard to understand what makes em this, and what makes em that!
I thought she needed black markings also.
Can't wait to see her with/out her winter coat.
She's a lot bigger than we remembered. My pinto pony is 12.5 My Arab is 14.0 And Spitey is 15+. Her rear end is taller than my wife and I. Cause we are LIL People here! Gonna need a 16' ladder to get on her!
My sister called and asked since she's a PAINT does that make her an INDIAN horse???? LoL

Terry


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## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

goodhors said:


> You may want to invest in some fly masks, keep one on her when outside. Those blue-eyed horse have often developed issues with the light eyes in sun. Especially if sun is intense, shining off snow, really bright in summer. Worse out West because the intensity of light is much higher than many of us Eastern States. I learned about this trying to grow some specialized Grasses that did poorly. Extension guy said our Michigan light was "not bright enough" to support the Buffalo Grass and let it thrive. Buffalo Grass was developed "out West" so that is where it does best in the brighter sunshine.
> 
> Problems with blue-eyed horses are why they were not common in the past. Owners didn't want to deal with their issues or shortened work life. My Grampa wouldn't even look at a horse with light eyes. Husband doesn't like them either, so nothing we own has light eyes. These days folks seem to like the light eyes, breed for them, will take the time to work around the issues, have Vet help. Still, problems crop up with those light eyes though maybe not for years.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the info about the eyes and sunshine, did not know this!
So she needs a Visor, and sunglasses, HEE! HEE!
Oh, my wife's gonna love this!
Is her pink skin susceptible to burn also, I would guess so!
Interesting about Grandpa, my Grandpa probably would have said the same!
My dad also said Grandpa LOVED his Horses! My Uncle turned out to be a very renown Arabian Breeder. Runs in the family I guess.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

She is very pretty! I would love to see a pic of her after her winter coat is shed out and she has had a bath, I bet she is quite lovely! 

I don't have a white horse or blue eyed horse, so can't give any help there, but what goodhors says is what I have heard, about keeping their eyes covered. I would watch out for sunburn with white pigment. Maybe a very lightweight fly sheet for summer months, or keeping her indoors during the day and grazing her in the evening and overnight. Just ideas...


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Nice mare. As for the bay vs. chestnut, where you would see black (mane,tail,legs) the white of the pinto pattern covers where she would show black, in other words, white trumps black. It's possible she 'could' be chestnut if both parents were chestnut or carried a gene for chestnut, but you would have to color test to determine that.

You may need to watch the pink nose for sunburn but you should have no issues with the blue eyes. I've had a number of horses up into their 20s with blue eyes and have had no issues at all with them, either in MT or here in KY. For one thing she has black 'eyeliner', black skin around her eyes, which will help avoid the sunburn issue around the eyes as well as help in bright sunlight.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

TerryR said:


> Paints can now be solid color as much as I have read. As long as they have the bloodlines.


Yes, I have a registered APHA mare that is solid black:

https://scontent-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/h...=958afec607484c82529faab9d3306c12&oe=55563980

Her sire is a very loud black & white paint, and dam is a bay TB mare. I wonder if they were very disappointed to get a solid black filly?  

I'm a little person too - only about 5'1". My mare is also about 15 hands but I make her look huge.  

I'll be curious to hear if anyone else has any thoughts on how her coloring is bay. I'm not sure I understand the overo, tobiano, and markings but I thought I knew my basic colors.  Maybe I'm wrong.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

SFM in KY said:


> Nice mare. As for the bay vs. chestnut, where you would see black (mane,tail,legs) the white of the pinto pattern covers where she would show black, in other words, white trumps black. It's possible she 'could' be chestnut if both parents were chestnut or carried a gene for chestnut, but you would have to color test to determine that.


Oh, interesting! So, the breeder probably knows that this horse is really bay, based on the colors of the sire & dam and/or their sire/dam as well. That makes sense, and certainly the coat color isn't enough to call it chestnut or bay - I have one of each, and their bodies are nearly identical in color - but obviously the mane & tail is different.

Is this how you can end up with a "tri-color" paint -- one that looks chestnut, white AND black - because it's really a bay horse but the white markings obscure some of the black points?


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

The pictures are hard to see and it could be dirt but her tail looks to have black in it,


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## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

where I want to said:


> The pictures are hard to see and it could be dirt but her tail looks to have black in it,


 Yes, her tail has Black in it!
I forgot all about that. But we had a great chance to brush and comb last week finally got some 50 degree weather, and found the BLACK hair! It was super muddy! Wanted to go for a ride!
Gave us that itch already!
Just sold our 2 horse trailer, now looking for a 3 horse! NO MORE!
These guys are like EATING potato chips! You CAN'T eat just one!


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

offthegrid said:


> Oh, interesting! So, the breeder probably knows that this horse is really bay, based on the colors of the sire & dam and/or their sire/dam as well. That makes sense, and certainly the coat color isn't enough to call it chestnut or bay - I have one of each, and their bodies are nearly identical in color - but obviously the mane & tail is different.
> 
> Is this how you can end up with a "tri-color" paint -- one that looks chestnut, white AND black - because it's really a bay horse but the white markings obscure some of the black points?


Actually, I've seen bays and chestnuts that could have been either color if they were paint/pinto and nothing to determine if there was black in the mane/tail and on the legs. Parentage, if a breeder owns sire and dam and knows for sure what they carry or don't carry, is usually accurate but the only infallible way to determine color is color testing. The color indicators are at different sites on the DNA strand so testing will show were the color indicators are.

The paints people refer to as tri-color paints are almost always bay base coat, which gives you the black, plus bay and white.


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## gracielagata (Jun 24, 2013)

SFM in KY said:


> Nice mare. As for the bay vs. chestnut, where you would see black (mane,tail,legs) the white of the pinto pattern covers where she would show black, in other words, white trumps black. It's possible she 'could' be chestnut if both parents were chestnut or carried a gene for chestnut, but you would have to color test to determine that.
> 
> You may need to watch the pink nose for sunburn but you should have no issues with the blue eyes. I've had a number of horses up into their 20s with blue eyes and have had no issues at all with them, either in MT or here in KY. For one thing she has black 'eyeliner', black skin around her eyes, which will help avoid the sunburn issue around the eyes as well as help in bright sunlight.


Looking for bay marks:
I was going to ask you SFM, as I know you are super knowledgeable- but doesn't Spitey have black on her nose- that would be the obvious expression of bay, since the white blocks it on the rest of her tips and end points. 
It is hard to see if it is there on her ear tips; all the high white bay paints I have ever seen, it seems difficult to see the dark outlines on many of their ears, maybe lack of visual reference point?

And OP- she is adorable! She looks super sweet.  And I love her name.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

gracielagata said:


> Looking for bay marks:
> but doesn't Spitey have black on her nose- that would be the obvious expression of bay, since the white blocks it on the rest of her tips and end points.
> It is hard to see if it is there on her ear tips; all the high white bay paints I have ever seen, it seems difficult to see the dark outlines on many of their ears, maybe lack of visual reference point?


Yes, the black on the nose and eyeliner can indicate bay, but I've seen chestnuts with eyeliner as well. She actually 'looks' bay to me, and with the black streak in the tail, I'm sure she is. With the majority of horses, what you see is what you get, really, but with some of the grays, roans and dilutes especially, it can get tricky and color testing is the only sure way of knowing on some of them.


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## gracielagata (Jun 24, 2013)

SFM in KY said:


> Yes, the black on the nose and eyeliner can indicate bay, but I've seen chestnuts with eyeliner as well. She actually 'looks' bay to me, and with the black streak in the tail, I'm sure she is. With the majority of horses, what you see is what you get, really, but with some of the grays, roans and dilutes especially, it can get tricky and color testing is the only sure way of knowing on some of them.


I was going to say that I thought eyeliner could happen on chestnuts as well. I have always loved how there are 'hard and fast' rules.... that get broken when you add in other factors. 
Our daughter got her 1st horse back in September... a ~17 year old appy gelding... they called him white... I think he is actually a whited out grey though, since his skin is pink with black mottling, typical of the appy. I would be willing to bet they weren't trying to breed for an Appaloosa who greyed out when they bred for him, lol.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

There is a black patch on the front left forehead, just under the ear. I can't see much else, but there is definitely at least a few black areas that make it a bay.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

I would not count on the black eyeliner as being part of her "bay" color points. With the light eyes, I would be thinking the mare might have been tattooed to give the color around the eyes. Really common on spotted horses locally, to get the eyeliner done. For local owners, tattoo eye coloring prevents sunburnt skin when you leave the horses out in pasture, since pink skin (no hair around eyes to speak of) burns so easily with sunshine. 

Horses with TRUE, born-on-them eyeliner, will have the two color or dark eyes to go with darker skin pigmentation. I very seldom see a blue eyed horse that has black skin around his eyes.

As for the white horse with mottled skin, this is pretty common on Appy horses. Comes from the Arab crossing in years past to get better heads on old-fashioned breeding. The App Assoc. quit allowing Arab crosses because it caused the fading color as horse aged. Still happens, those darn genetics pop out when least expected!
If buying Appy or Black foals, look for "spectacles" on his eyes. A slightly lighter shade of black or some white mixed with dark hair around his eyes on a foal, is the prediction of his greying out later on. Might be slow or fast, depending how his family was bred, but he WILL eventually be a white horse. Too bad, some of the MOST spectacularly colored Apps I have ever seen as foals, got white with age. Still nice horses, but only Appy spotted when wet!


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## gracielagata (Jun 24, 2013)

goodhors said:


> I would not count on the black eyeliner as being part of her "bay" color points. With the light eyes, I would be thinking the mare might have been tattooed to give the color around the eyes. Really common on spotted horses locally, to get the eyeliner done. For local owners, tattoo eye coloring prevents sunburnt skin when you leave the horses out in pasture, since pink skin (no hair around eyes to speak of) burns so easily with sunshine.
> 
> Horses with TRUE, born-on-them eyeliner, will have the two color or dark eyes to go with darker skin pigmentation. I very seldom see a blue eyed horse that has black skin around his eyes.
> 
> ...


Exactly!!! He is definitely only spotted when wet, aside from all of his proper appy mottling. I know nothing of him as a young horse, so no idea on his breeding or what his coloring would have been young. 

Then you have my half-appy, half quarter horse mare- her dad was a very loud bay leopard appy, mom was a cremello qh.... Don't know what they hoped for, but she is a beautiful solid buttermilk buckskin. lol No spots whatsoever, aside from the ermine spots on her white sock.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq27/horsel02/Chilihalter.jpg

I hope you can see that pic, that is a blue eyed bald faced paint with eyeliner. I have seen many over the years and they are not tatted with the eyeliner.

http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-773790

There is another ad.

Your paint has some black in her, nose and tail and it looks like in the last pic there is a spot of black above the eye. 

There may be more under the mane and on her bonnet behind her ears, I can't tell from the pictures.

Now..look at the papers. Used to be the APHA required the owner to show the patches and what color they are. i.e. you literally had to draw the spots out for the pattern and list what colors they were. If this is not on the reverse of the papers, call the APHA and ask them if they have a copy of the foal registration and they should be able to tell you what colors were where on the horse.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

Sidepasser, APHA puts photos on the papers now instead of having to draw their markings. 

Here's a SSH filly I raised. No tattooing done.









Blue eyes really aren't any more prone to trouble than brown ones. Pink skin is more prone to sunburn and in my experience also more prone to dew poisoning on the muzzle and scratches on the back of their pasterns. I really don't have too much trouble with any of those things but on the rare occasion it does happen it's always on pink skin.


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## HorsesNGoats (Feb 5, 2015)

This summer you may want to use sunscreen on her nose to keep her from getting sunburnt. &#128523;&#128523;


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

Interesting to see those with black around the light eyes, sure not common around here. I checked with several friends, knowledgeable on horses, who agreed with me that the pink skin is what they also see with light eyed horses.

Maybe the breeds (non-Western filly) or certain breeding lines, that produced your example horses are different than what we see around here. Both are attractive horses.

I know that Hereford cattle folks were trying to get color around their Breed blue eyes for prevention of burning of skin, eye issues of light eyes in the breed. Bulls are promoted for adding the "Panda" eyes on calves. What I have heard says the eye patches don't help prevent eye issues in the cattle, but they are cute! Our 4-H Hereford heifer had light color Panda spots, did not sunburn around her eyes. But she sold at the Fair Auction, so I don't know if patches helped her as she aged.

Cashel makes a nose cover type eye mask, so the screen hangs down and protects white skin noses even if not using sun screen protection. Not sure if it is a GOOD protection, 100%, but better than nothing. You do need to apply sun screen every few hours to keep it effective.


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## Cropduster (Feb 7, 2015)

Nice.


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