# Water Wheels for electricity production!



## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

There are more small creeks around that have enough water flow and head to build a power plant from than we could even count and I can't understand why they aren't producing electricity! 
I understand people without a creek close by using solar panels, but with a creek, Just a few gallons per second of water and as little as a 12' head can do way more than several solar panels can and one can be built a lot cheaper that using a solar panel array! 
For one thing, regular old alternators from the salvage yards can be used to generate the "Juice" and they already come with a regulator that will limit the amount of electricity that goes to the batteries! That is a large savings by not requiring a charge controller! 
Next is what an alternator cost compared to a solar panel, watt for watt! 
A $50.00 junk yard alternator will produce well over what a 150 watt solar panel will! 
The turbine can't use 5 gallons a minute with a 12 foot head but a properly built and light weight water wheel can! 
If anyone has a creek that has at least five gallons of water flow per minute and had enough fall, or head to build a 12 foot or larger, (up to 24 feet') water wheel, please jump in here and let me tell you what I have learned from studying water wheel for several decades! 
And when I say studied, I have read so much about them, from books I have bought, books from several libraries, and on the internet, I don't think that I could learn anything that I don't know about them, short of building one! 
I will say one thing about solar power though! It has made me realize just how little amount of flow some people could get away with! 
But one thing about hydroelectric is that the creeks doesn't sleep! Solar is only awake a few hours a day, and it is sleepy a lot of that time, but water simply doesn't sleep! 
It may get a bit sleepy during the summer, but it stays awake 24 hours a day!:rock:


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I haven't looked into it but I've always thought that using the weight of water instead of velocity was very effective.

Why do you need a 12' drop?


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

One big roadblock...

EPA

A lot of people just don't want to be hassled and threatened.


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## forphase1 (Aug 5, 2010)

Interesting. I've got a pond with constant flow out of overflow due to streams and natural springs feeding into it. May have to look into seeing if I can harness some of that energy.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

it harder to do than talk about. it takes a 5 foot drop to overcome inefficiencies of the mechanics. automotive type generators are ill suited and very inefficient. then there are the 100 year flood that occur every 20 or so years now, that wipe $100,000 investments off the face of seemly mild streams. and the ultimate game stopper other have pointed out EPA and state and local codes. 

to build a water driven plant one must invest large sums of money, be a mechanical wiz, be a skilled craftsman in fabrication, be very remote from other people, have the right volumes and falls, have flood and rapid flow protection plan and be patient enough to invest the time and hard work to make it happen. other than that, its a piece of cake.


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## mrs whodunit (Feb 3, 2012)

Flooding is also of great concern.

Thats why my parents never had one on their creek.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

I did see an interesting setup somewhere in southwestern TN one time. It was by a large stream that was not far off the road but had quite a bit of fall to it.

There was a large water wheel about 10' off to the one side of the stream. Running back several hundred feet upstream from the water wheel was a stretch of what looked like 12" PVC pipe that brought the water to the water wheel.

Apparently, they had devised a way to divert some (nowhere near all) of the water from the stream into that pipe and then allowed the spill from the water wheel to rejoin the stream a little below the wheel.

What I liked was that the water wheel was not -in- the stream but rather, beside. I would guess that in times of major water events, the wheel would have been in a less vulnerable position as it wasn't directly in the path of least resistance. 

Apparently, it was not an issue with the powers that be because it was right out in the open and right along a road for all to see. I have no idea what kind of permissions were necessary to alter the flow of a stream or whether they even got permission. 

I have always wanted something like a water wheel setup but have pretty much decided that it's probably not going to happen. If I'm wrong, I'll be delighted! 

A typical water wheel really doesn't make that much power but the great thing about them is that they pretty much make power 24/7, day and night. There's something to be said for that, even if it's only a few hundred watts.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

There is no doubt about it, the serenity created by the genital but powerful action of falling water over an overshot wheel has coaxed hundreds of thousands of people into being mechanical engineers.


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## doingitmyself (Jul 30, 2013)

100 years ago sure no problem as there was no grid to tie to. The most expensive power you will ever use is the power you make yourself.That is a fact. 

I know a few folks that have "wired up" parts like you are suggesting for kicks and grins and its all fun and games, but Duct tape, bailing wire and junk yard parts does not equate to a hydro power generation system.

Trust what the other poster said automotive alternators or junk yard parts are not engineered for that kind of application and before long you put way more $$$ into the "free" than you would have the "buy " energy.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

ace admirer said:


> There is no doubt about it, the serenity created by the genital but powerful action of falling water over an overshot wheel has coaxed hundreds of thousands of people into being mechanical engineers.



Your spell checker has been correcting too much porn. GENTLE action... 

Before attempting anything with a stream or creek, you first have to have riparian rights. If the stream is considered "navigable" (and there are many that fit this even though you couldn't even canoe on them) then there are a whole mess of laws on a Federal level. Some states severely restrict rights (Tennessee is one of them). Some areas are covered by water districts (Colorado and California come to mind), some by quasi-governmental entities like the TVA. Any structure like a dam that would interrupt the passage of fish to breeding grounds will get a project denied, as will anything that uses more than a portion of the natural flow - even in the driest season.

Once you take into account all of the above and eliminate vernal streams, there isn't much left.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

i spell so horribly, the spell checker says "what?!?"


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Watergennies, like windgennies, require a person that wants to be active in the production of the power. Solar doesn't require an active person as there are no moving parts or anything to maintain.

What about freezing? floods? droughts?

WWW


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## Audrima (Jan 19, 2014)

we are putting turbines on our land, two nice units on each side of the dam that is there. when we looked into it it was ok. why? the lakes are man made and were made 50 years ago. since one dam fell down, we are replacing that part with the water wheel/turbine. since we have 10ish springs flowing into the lakes (3 lakes that is) we have great flow... so much the beavers can't stop it!

Aud


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## AVanarts (Jan 2, 2011)

I find micro hydro to be very attractive, but as others have pointed out "flooding" or other flow issues are an issue. Here in the PNW, and I suspect other places, streams that flow at a reasonable rate can pose a severe flooding problem in the winter. Also streams that flow at a reasonable rate in the winter can be dry in the summer. Solar in the summer and micro hydro in the winter is a good combination.


If flow problems can be overcome, then a micro hydro system with a PMA and a pelton wheel could be a great option. With a good sized battery bank to take care of peak energy needs, one only needs to generate a modest amount of power per hour to provide for household energy needs. Only 200 watts of continuous generation gives 4.8 kilowatt hours per day. 500 watts of continuous generation gives 12 kilowatt hours per day.

If I could, I would set up for micro hydro for at least part of the year, but I live on a mountain with no creek available. I have a killer view of the valley, though.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

BadFordRanger said:


> ...The turbine can't use 5 gallons a minute with a 12 foot head but a properly built and light weight water wheel can! ...


How about you put those numbers in the calculator at otherpower for water wheels and see just how much power is available from your example.

http://www.waterwheelplace.com/water_wheel_electricity.html

Max potential would be 275wh a day. Realistic is half that. A lot of building expense and maintenance in that for minimul power. I can easily see why one should go solar over microhydro.

WWW


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

why some people will come out the gate trying to shoot down someone else's idea's, because they read something somewhere or because of some wive's tail or myth! 
And wolf, I have no idea who the idiot is that made that post, but he hasn't a clue what he is saying! he says he will make it simple to understand but it was all bull! Let's do the real math here, if you can follow it! 
A gallon of fresh water weighs 8.34 Lbs.
A foot pound of torque + one pound per foot from the center of the shaft!
HP= Ft. Lbs. of Torque x RPM's / 5252! 
One HP = .743 kWh's 
so you do the math for a 12 foot water wheel getting a super small 5 gallons of water per minute!


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

I meant five gallons per second! I have no idea where my brain was at when I typed in "per minute", because I seldom make a critical mistake like that! 
I am as small as a man comes and I could raise more than 5 gallons a minute up 12 feet!


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

300 gallons a minute is still a pretty small stream. I built some portable siphons for the farm that could move at least 200 gallons/minute with only 2-3 feet of head using 4" pipe.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

Let the :duel: begin, LOL! 

05/05/14 03:56 PM 
ace admirer 

There is no doubt about it, the serenity created by the genital but powerful action of falling water over an overshot wheel has coaxed hundreds of thousands of people into being mechanical engineers. 


Don't you think that just might be a bit sarcastic! Well, just maybe you might understand how foolish some people can make themselves look in the eyes of other people when they attempt to talk about a subject in which they don't truly know anything about???????

Well, I feel a bit foolish myself because I just spent an hour or more replying to one of your post but when I went to post it, the dang computer said I had ran out of time in that window and it wouldn't allow me to post it, so with this said, I'll post this before the computer says that again and come back for round two! 
Ranger


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

05/05/14 01:45 PM 
ace admirer 
it harder to do than talk about. it takes a 5 foot drop to overcome inefficiencies of the mechanics. automotive type generators are ill suited and very inefficient. then there are the 100 year flood that occur every 20 or so years now, that wipe $100,000 investments off the face of seemly mild streams. and the ultimate game stopper other have pointed out EPA and state and local codes. 

to build a water driven plant one must invest large sums of money, be a mechanical wiz, be a skilled craftsman in fabrication, be very remote from other people, have the right volumes and falls, have flood and rapid flow protection plan and be patient enough to invest the time and hard work to make it happen. other than that, its a piece of cake. 

#1: Ace, I have never in my life seen anything that isn't harder to do than talk about it! 

#2: What type of hat do you wear Ace! You had to pull that 5 foot to over come the inefficiencies of "the mechanics" and I can't figure out where you grabbed that number from? 
I mean with enough water I can build a water wheel that isn't but five feet high and make "Juice" from it albeit it would take a heck of a set up and great amount of water to make it worth the time but that can be done! According to that statement, I wouldn't even have water coming to the wheel, LMAO! 

#3: You need to call the manufacturers of Harris Hydroelectric and tell the that their turbines that uses a Ford Delco Alternator is ill suited and inefficient because they are under the understanding that they can produce up to 1,500 watts of of electricity with them! :facepalm:

#4: Man, all I can say is that if a man spends $100,000 on a project that sets the main part of it within the reach of flooding creeks, he should be forced to set on the bank and watch it be washed down the drain! 

#5: I'll bet a dime to a hundred dollars that you don't know that there is a federal law that gives me the right to take position of a dam that is already built and produce renewable energy from it, build your hydro-electric plant and pay the person that owns it at least 10% of the income from the project! I have no idea where you could find out about it short of paying an attorney to search it down, which I did back in 1992 0r 1993! 
I read that in a book back then and after talking to many people and not finding out about it, I offered an attorney $150.00 to find the law and he took me up on the offer, gave a short note to a secretary and they called me the next day and said it was in the mail! But I don't have it now and there are many rules and red tape of course, but it is doable! 
I'll be back latter to finish this! 
Ranger!


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

"There is no doubt about it, the serenity created by the genital but powerful action of falling water over an overshot wheel has coaxed hundreds of thousands of people into being mechanical engineers." is not sarcastic, i have been studying hydraulic since i was 6 (well playing) and it is why i became a mechanical engineer. 

yes 1 inch of drop will create power, so does a butterfly, so does a continental plate movement. i don't suggest anyone try to harness either, sorry if you don't agree. for a "homeowner sized overshot wheel" i stand by the 5 foot drop limit.

your #1 , glad you agree, i've built and rebuilt homeowner and commercial units and have experienced problems and history of most situations. walk the walk. but i am going to talk the talk.

i wear many hats, at this very second the hat i wear is program head of industrial maintenance technology, electrical systems technology and sustainable energies technology at a college. you may find that sarcastic or pitiful,,your choice, not mine. 

yes, yes, car alternators, car rear ends, transmissions you name it, i've probably seen it. terrible efficiencies and life (in general) 

have you ever built a dam or sluiceway for a water project that has to stay put for 20 or 100 years? i'll stand by the 100K figure for all equipment. not some junk like a fan in a stream to make energy not a toy.

Your #5, i would not bet you, i know little of legal issues, not my "hat", i deal in technology. 

i suggest a book "Producing your own power", a collection of actual how to do for homeowner to medium power units of all sorts edired by carol hupping stoner, as a beginning source of "real" operating information. there is a magazine out there that is pretty good, but somewhat optimistic in actual articles on installations. 

5 foot fall,,,ofk so how big would that butterfly have to be to link it up to some mechanical machine to produce any useful power? 

overshot wheel 75% efficiency, gear box efficiency 80%, generator efficiency 90%, line losses to power end point 80 to 95% whats that, around 47 % or so?

who has designed or fabricated an overshot, or banki, spent weeks in the penstock of 300 hp francis turbines, repairing stop gates, vanes and runners, surveyed heads and calculated flows. they are old hats to me. 

got a little history with wind turbines also but thats another hat.

of course no one has to pay any attention to me,,,,,,except my students,,,,they need to know how to calculate useful power from hopeful energy sites. to pass test..the formulas are out there, i did did not write them. the laws of thermodynamics are out there, i certainly did not write them. but i and you have to abide by them.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

ace admirer said:


> "There is no doubt about it, the serenity created by the genital but powerful action of falling water over an overshot wheel has coaxed hundreds of thousands of people into being mechanical engineers." is not sarcastic, I have been studying hydraulic since I was 6 (well playing) and it is why I became a mechanical engineer.
> 
> yes 1 inch of drop will create power, so does a butterfly, so does a continental plate movement. i don't suggest anyone try to harness either, sorry if you don't agree. for a "homeowner sized overshot wheel" i stand by the 5 foot drop limit.
> 
> ...


You have me at a disadvantage here, ACE! I don't know whether to applaud you or laugh at you, but I'll do neither! You are correct in one thing and you best stay clear! Hot air balloons work on thermodynamics and you might leave Kanas! 
Ranger


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

"applaud you or laugh at you" hmmm i have the same thoughts on my 1.25 hour commute to work every day... probably laugh at me would be more like it....


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

I'll tell you what ace, you give me the formula for calculating the maximum amount of electricity that a 24 foot water wheel can produce using with one cubic foot per second and I'll shut the heck Up! 
If you are truly a teacher about things like this, that should be an easy enough test!
But then again, if you fail to do so, everyone here will see the hat that you truly wear! 
I'll give you until Sunday and if you have failed to post anything, then I'll post a formula that several math and engineering professors have told me were 100% correct, so everyone on here can see exactly how much power they can produce from a small creek that they might be close by! 
Now I'll be truthful with you, I hope that you not only can, but will do so, so that I have to apologize in front of everyone here, which I will be happy to do, but again, being truthful, I don't think you can! 
Ranger


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## smoker1 (Mar 9, 2008)

Badfordrager, are you a millwright? A good friend of mine is and we are going to give this water power a go this summer, He has it figured that a 6ft tall by 4ft wide undershot wheel with vanes at 30 something degrees so three vanes always have water in them . I don't know if it will produce electricity but we plan on turning a sawmill. Can't wait to find out.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

smoker1 said:


> Badfordrager, are you a millwright? A good friend of mine is and we are going to give this water power a go this summer, He has it figured that a 6ft tall by 4ft wide undershot wheel with vanes at 30 something degrees so three vanes always have water in them . I don't know if it will produce electricity but we plan on turning a sawmill. Can't wait to find out.


Smoker, I am 100% sure that something will be said about this, but I have worked as a millwright, but that Sir, that doesn't make me one!
I have worked in many trades and I am as good as they come in a few, close in some, but as a millwright, I knew enough to earn journeyman's pay, but I have never actually considered myself to be a millwright!
I do however think that I know more than the average Joe about waterwheels and I don't see the true importance of being a Millwright! 
if you have enough water flow to keep a 6' x 4' wide water wheel full, it might make enough power for a saw mill and while you do need all bearings and gears to be as true as possible, the shear weight of the water pressure against an undershot wheel will negate that importance of the millwright work substantially! 
If your friend is a good millwright, he knows the importance of getting all clearances as perfect as possible and making sure any gearing is designed as well as possible, but I would suggest that you design a larger wheel than 6 feet high! 
Even if you can only build the sleuth that feeds the wheel three or four feet high, the larger the wheel the better off you are! You will gain more torque than a six foot wheel and torque is needed bad for sawing wood! 
Ft. lbs. of torque is what makes Horse Power!
But I'll be truthful with you, I have never studied about undershot waterwheels! 
What type and size saw are you going to build or are you going to buy one? 
Let me know how much water flow you have! PM me some pictures of the creek and I can help you somewhat with directions but please PM me, because I have a secrete weapon that I don't want to get out as of right now about the materials that I feel are the best to be used by far! 
I hope that I can help you!
Ranger


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

I think maintenance is not a big selling point. Moving parts break a lot. Solar panels don't. 

Commercially they are still used but most of them have been around longer than the laws and regulations protecting waterways.... Lots of that darn red tape in the way. 

I think it's a great idea for a mechanically inclined prepper though! Wish I had a decent water way. I'm concerned about procuring parts in a SHTF scenario though...
I can make a battery or even a panel (there's a free book on amazon explaining that to any who are interested) .... Just not sure I could do that with a water wheel?


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

gweny said:


> I think maintenance is not a big selling point. Moving parts break a lot. Solar panels don't.
> 
> Commercially they are still used but most of them have been around longer than the laws and regulations protecting waterways.... Lots of that darn red tape in the way.
> 
> ...


I'm sure you are right about having to have the ability to build something like a water wheel but there people out there that can and will build them for a fee! I guess that am just blessed with the ability to build things like that!
I am not sure I understand what you mean about making a battery or a solar panel! If there are book out there on making them yourself I'd like to see them! I have though about making a lead acid battery myself but have never fooled with it! I have about seven or eight old 12 volt batteries that I want to tear apart and melt all the lead down and pour my own plates to make a huge 24 volt battery if I could learn the tricks! 
Ranger


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

There are more wives tails about water wheel out there that it isn't funny but I am going to kill some of them and the myths today! 
If any of you has a creek that flows a cubic foot of water a second, and looking at a creek, that isn't a huge creek that flows that much water! 
Myth #1: Is that it takes up to 50% of the power produced to power the gearing! That is a total myth and an out right lie! 
That lie began back in the mid 1,800's when the "BIG Gold Rush" was going on!
The Pelton Wheel was designed and said would produce much more power than a water wheel would, and they did, but look at what they did to make that so!
They piped water up to several hundred feet higher than a water wheel was tall to the turbine to get that power! 
They claimed it was the gearing that was the cause! 
Myth #2: Water wheels are so huge and bulky that they eat up 50% of the power they produce!
I guess that could be true with most wooden water wheels, but my idea of a water wheel isn't a beautiful looking old wooden water wheel turning maybe two RPM's! 
OK, I have used 1/2" - 3/4" and 1" Electrical EMT conduit to fabricate several projects, including a 5' x 8 foot trailer that I pulled with a Lawn and Garden tractor, (After I removed the cutting deck) to pull loads of firewood from the woods below the house! 
It had the rear wheels and tires from another Lawn & Garden tractor that were 8" wheels and the tires were about 18" tall and they are what told me when I couldn't load any more logs on the trailer! 
I would load it until the tires squatted and that trailer was made out of nothing but 1/2" conduit, except for the axle and one piece of 3/8" x 4" bar stock for the tongue never gave a gripe! 
My idea of a water wheel is based on the design of a simple bicycle wheel using the 1/2" EMT conduit for the spokes, according to the size wheel, up to several feet of 24" steel pipe for the hub, (Which I salvaged several years ago that is laying at the rear of the place here) a length of 5-5/8" or 6-1/4" steel galvanized well casing (Which I also happen to have several pieces of, laying with the 24" pipe) and 16 gauge sheet metal for the rim and buckets!
A great thing about this design is that I can build a pulley on the utmost widest part of the wheel to get the gearing from the wheel its self! 
Now what you say we do some calculations here! 
OK, to start with, to stop the doubters about the gearing! 
Using 1/2" conduit that comes in 10", we have 10' bicycle spoke, so to speak!! Think about the bicycle wheel now! 
If those little wire wheel spokes will hold up a 300 lb. person, what in the world will a piece of 1/2" tube do when configured is the same situation? 
Now let's look at the size of the wheel! If we use the 24" pipe for the hub and the 10' spokes??? Well, the spokes should be welded to the pipe (Hub) nearly half way down to the center of the hub so the spokes will crisscross from one side to the other as they do on the bicycle wheel to get the strength required so that will leave us with just about two pieces meeting each other from opposite side of the inside of the rim of wheel! So the inside of the rim should be maybe a few inches more that 20' but we will use 20' for this part of the calculations! Now the water will be on the out side of the rim of the wheel, and we have to calculate where the center of gravity will be in each bucket!


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

Well I figure on making each bucket about a foot long from the rim out so the pulley would have a diameter of about 22'! 
If the Jackshaft (for lack of better word) which will be at least a few hundred feet towards the house is a 2" shaft, (which I would use considering the length of the homemade belt that will be bringing the power to it) has a 6 inch pulley on it, them from get go, we have a 44:1 ratio from the wheel to the shaft! 
Making the belt will have to be another story but I have done it on a rototiller and it worked for two seasons at 3,000 to 3,500 RPM's so this should last at 15 RPM's for a good while! 
Anyway, we have a water wheel that will turn give or take about 15 RPM's x 44:1 ratio = 660 RPM's at the shaft to start with! 
Now an alternator won't even start producing any serious wattage at that speed so the jack will have to lead to a second jack shaft which will run the alternators! The second Jack shaft need not be larger than a 1" shaft on pillow block bearings with 15" pulleys on it that will turn 2-1/2" pulleys on the alternators! That would turn the alternators right at 4,000 RPM's which is about perfect for an automobile alternator to run! 
The secondary Jack shaft can be turned by the main shaft with, according to the amount of power you will be producing, a 35, 40 50, or even a 60 pitch chain and sprockets! 
You can find them at www.surpluscenter.com at good prices and there are many other place they can be had! 
Or you can run a series of pulleys and V-belts for the main jack shaft to power the other! 
Now where is all the "power eating gearing" I keep hearing about? 
I have to leave now but I'll finish this post later! 
Ranger


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

gweny said:


> I think maintenance is not a big selling point. Moving parts break a lot. Solar panels don't.
> 
> Commercially they are still used but most of them have been around longer than the laws and regulations protecting waterways.... Lots of that darn red tape in the way.
> 
> ...


I wanted to address this part of it too! The part about maintenance that is! 
What maintenance are you talking about? 
How often do you need to replace the alternator in you vehicle? 
Once you get the concrete poured for the supports for the wheel, build the rope (that will probably last a lifetime), pour the concrete for the power house where the jackshafts and alternators will be and mounted and hook it all up, the batteries are the only thing to worry about, and with a waterwheel, you don't need nearly as many batteries because the water wheel doesn't go to bed at night as solar panels do! 
Even with a small amount of water, a wheel makes power 24/7's, 52 weeks a year! 
OK, Gotta go before the wife takes the broom to me, LOL! 
Ranger


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Let's see some pictures.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

I've been coaching the junior marksmanship support group for the past few days at the Creedmore Cup, another hat, so i failed by your timetable.

the formula has been around for about 300 years, page 64, for your calculation,.(very beginning of the chapter) for you Q cubic feet per second x head in feet all divided by 8.8 (to give horsepower units output) all multiplied by overall efficiency (in your case 100 %) since your design has no thermodynamic losses you could use unlimited vee belts, flat belts, intermediate drives all maintenance free. 

I await the out come while sitting on the millstone in my yard. 

perhaps we should ease up and do a little reading.


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## Skamp (Apr 26, 2014)

I wish to speak to a few issues, besides efficiency, that caught my eye.


A system, such as this, should start with an evaluation of the load. If you're gonna do it, be certain that the entire circuit is balanced or preferably with a bit of buffer. To write off the need for a sizable battery pack I think is a bit short sighted. Will the load be constant in a 24 hour period? Likely not, the load will decrease at night while the "wheel" hopefully maintains it's motion. You need to be able to store during off peak periods, whatever may cause that circumstance. There could/should be a seasonal evaluation. You need a suitable circuit to handle peak draw. When? How much? For what duration? "You design a building from the top down, everything else is from the bottom up". I don't know where I first heard that, but it applies more often than not. The proverbial rubber hits the road here at the light switch, laptop charger, etc.


The modern automobile has incredibly more life than it's predecessors. But, they are still relatively low duty cycle machine compared to the question at hand. Perhaps a road tractor alternator would be better? But, in any case, you should be looking at 100% duty cycle in all of the components.


Belts, in a humid environment, are a design challenge to say the least. Belts eat power. Gears eat power. Bearings eat power.


The modern bicycle wheel is an absolutely elegant design, one that most laymen will account as simple. Pretensioned radial and axial members with a basically simply supported load on both ends (spokes), attached at one end to a relatively stiff supporting member tolerant to distortion (hub), and connected on the other end to an axially relatively high section modulus member (rim) that provides the means to true and balance.


To apply tensioned spoke design with conduit is a bit far fetched. A lattice, truss, or grid design would be must better suited. Conduit is not a structural element suited for a cyclically loaded mechanism, of which a water wheel certainly is.

To curb weight is not always a good thing. Flywheels have their place, and this is likely one of them. In particular, radius of gyration will smooth the cyclic loading somewhat from the source, and reap benefits on all devices to follow.


I expect a reply basically, "I say that big talk's worth doodly-squat".

But Fletcher and Wales were the only two of how many that survived? One had a bullet hole at that.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

62.4 x 60 x 12 x 15 x 25% / 5252 x .743 = Kwh's of electricity! 


Now Mr. Ace Professor, would you be so good as to tell me exactly what each of the numbers represent with a 24 foot water wheel using one cubic foot per minute of water? 
If you can't, would you please be so nice as to not make a post ridiculing my ideas on any thread that I start! 
Thank You
Ranger


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Might I remind everyone of this forums first rule? The "be nice" rule.
I have played with the idea many times with our stream and springs. While I find it very intriguing, I have yet to find a method that works for my situation.
Yes, there is potential. But, it's not for everyone's situation.
Please keep this in mind. Just like solar doesn't work for everyone. Location and situation is key for anything.

Matt


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

hmmm, i help when i can, i get paid for my day job, consulting engineering is $250/hour, learning how to be a national shooter is free.

your first calculation was in gallons, your second, weight of water per cubic foot (a standard si unit of engineering) seems you have been doing some reading, good 


might i suggest 

any junior high school physics book 

audels millwrights and mechanics guide



Thompson/delmar learning metal fabrication

a general read of oxford's, renewable energy for alternate energy of all types.

but for specifics including drawings and calculations Producing your own power.

BaDFordRanger? is your actual site capable of 24 foot head but only 1 cubic foot per Minute or are those numbers you're pulling out for academic's sake?


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Roadking said:


> Might I remind everyone of this forums first rule? The "be nice" rule.
> I have played with the idea many times with our stream and springs. While I find it very intriguing, I have yet to find a method that works for my situation.
> Yes, there is potential. But, it's not for everyone's situation.
> Please keep this in mind. Just like solar doesn't work for everyone. Location and situation is key for anything.
> ...


Thank you, Matt. Some of this is bordering on a "peeing contest". But there might be a few good tidbits thrown in, too, which is why I keep coming back to the thread...


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

[FONT=&quot]ok[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 feet head
1 cubic foot per min water flow, 1/60 sec/min. = 0.01666666666666666666666666666667 cubic feet per second

metal overshot wheel of excellent construction, volute buckets
correct design of flume with correct sprouting velocity
forward rotation of wheel

(24 feet head x 0.01666666666666666666666666666667 )/8.8= 0.04545454545454545454545454545455 horse power theoretical 

24 foot over shot about 75 buckets, about 2.5 rpm, wheel efficiency say 70 %

alternator rpm depending on generator 900 - 3600rpm

gear up ratio 1:360 to 1:1440

so
0.0455 hp theor x 70% wheel efficiency = 0.03181818181818181818181818181818 Hp at 2.5 rpm. 

say 50% gear up efficiency
so
0.03181hp x 50% gearing efficiency = 0.01590909090909090909090909090909 Hp at generator input

746 watts per mechanical hp

0.0159Hp x 746 watts/hp = 11.86 watts input to generator shaft.

say 95 % efficiency of a well made generator (not an automotive type)

11.86 watts x 95% = 11.27 watts

line losses from power house to point of use (distance unknown, but lets say 5% line losses)

11.27 watts output at generator X 95% efficiency wire) = 10.71 watts continuous[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]the low flow rate kills the equation, the large gear up required by the large diameter wheel kills the equation. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]maybe storing flow for 3/4 of a day and running the larger flow rate through a francis or well made banki would get better turbine efficiency and better rpm efficiency. but dam cost go up tremendously.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I don't publish calculations without a 24 hour recheck period or have an independent check made.. but if i am wrong , i know this gracious group will understand.[/FONT]


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Did I read that right, 1 cubic foot per minute of water flow? No wonder there's so little power available. 

I missed where that trickle of water was supposed to power a whole subdivision (I'm exaggerating) but it's possible someone could have mentioned that figure previously, whether in error or not, I don't know.

Ace, I can understand your frustration at such a tiny amount of water being expected to generate a sizable amount of electricity.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

oh no, no frustration, i think more a difference of point of view, experience and perhaps printed information at hand.

I also wondered about the 1 cft per minute,,and that could be a mistype. i hope we will see. 

I want this to work, i have always wanted land with flows and windspeeds to make it work(again since i was 6). but its not easy. the basic formulas and laws cannot be ignored. the efficiencies of modern drives or generators may increase, but the laws are laws. 

I'm sticking my nose in so deep to try to keep someone (no one in particular) from spending a bunch of money for so little or negative outcome. 

but always in the quest for knowledge.


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## MichaelK! (Oct 22, 2010)

Bellyman said:


> Ace, I can understand your frustration at such a tiny amount of water being expected to generate a sizable amount of electricity.


You see it here all the time. "How can I run my electric stove on my 45 watt Harbor Freight solar system?", or "I want to run my arc welder off solar".

People that have no clue just how much power is getting produced vs. how much power is being consumed.

BFR, the best advice I can give you is stop talking and start doing. Once you realize how hard it is to accomplish things in the real world, maybe we can give you more constructive advice.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

Roadking said:


> Might I remind everyone of this forums first rule? The "be nice" rule.
> I have played with the idea many times with our stream and springs. While I find it very intriguing, I have yet to find a method that works for my situation.
> Yes, there is potential. But, it's not for everyone's situation.
> Please keep this in mind. Just like solar doesn't work for everyone. Location and situation is key for anything.
> ...


OK everyone, I just realized that a post that I thought had been posted, never got on the board! 
In that post I said that I was wrong when I said 5 gallons per minute of water and I also said that I was wrong when I said a cubic foot per minute! 
I have been working on a water powered air conditioning system to cool our house from creek water which will use about two gallons per minute that is coming from three spring and right now, the temperature of it is 57 degrees! 
I checked it several times last summer and it was 53 degrees every time, but I went down and checked it again just now, before I typed this and it says 57 degrees! 
Anyway, I crossed my wires and said "per Minute" when I meant to say "per second!" 
Sorry for the confusion here!


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

easy to do,,,,the older you get,,the easier. ok, with my math @ 1 cft/sec, i get 643 watts continuous. better.


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## Skamp (Apr 26, 2014)

ace admirer said:


> ............with my math @ 1 cft/sec, i get 643 watts continuous. better.



Shouldn't there be an increase in RPM so that the increase in output is more than the proportional increase in volume?


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

no, increase in volume is linked to increased width of buckets(width of entire wheel) per design lip to root distance (just bigger, wider buckets to hold the larger volume,

rpm is limited by a couple of factors, the major one being centrifugal force. (throwing the water out of the buckets). any water that does not stay in the buckets from top to bottom ( good volute design) is lost weight that does not produce torque. as diameter of the overshot goes up, the rpm needs to go down...most millwrights used 3 feet of rim distance per second as the maximum. so using this rule in the example

24 foot dia overshot x pie...= about 75 feet perimeter 

75 ft divided by 3 ft/sec = about 25 seconds per rev. 

60 sec/min divided by 25 spr is about the 2.5 rpm i used.


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## Skamp (Apr 26, 2014)

Gotcha, thanks.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

MichaelK! said:


> You see it here all the time. "How can I run my electric stove on my 45 watt Harbor Freight solar system?", or "I want to run my arc welder off solar".
> 
> People that have no clue just how much power is getting produced vs. how much power is being consumed.
> 
> BFR, the best advice I can give you is stop talking and start doing. Once you realize how hard it is to accomplish things in the real world, maybe we can give you more constructive advice.


And the "Replace the power company" advertisements with a single solar panel and one or two deep cycle batteries (in a tidy little box, usually) in a picture are all over magazines such as Backwoods Home and the like. 

I hate those ads. Not that what they're selling might not be a decent product. I have no knowledge of whether what they're selling is good or bad. But the implication that they can run every appliance known to man on that tiny solar setup is rather deceptive.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

ace admirer said:


> easy to do,,,,the older you get,,the easier. ok, with my math @ 1 cft/sec, i get 643 watts continuous. better.


Thank you so much for your numbers and I truly mean that! 
However you math doesn't come out as mine does! My math says 1.5889 kWh's continuously but I'll take the 643 watts to start with! It sure beats 10 watts LOL! But I do understand that came from me screwing up with the Cubic ft. or gallons per minute instead of per second! 
But I do thank you for coming back with that number! 
Ranger


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

no problem, perhaps the difference is in the efficiencies. since the basic horsepower formulas are simple weight of water and the distance the water is dropped. 
a lot depends on final decisions like type of gear train, type and speed of the generator.. i was applying SWAG for those numbers, but i think they are close.

i wished i had some land with 24 foot head,,,,

Bellyman, we had a presentation here about adding electric car recharge stations. The talker went into a speech about a solar panel this and solar panel that. The entire room got the impression that cars would be charged by solar power. I asked a few questions and he admitted the solar panel would charge a night light for the station, that 240 volt service feed would have to be run for the station. in the old days they sold snake oils


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## MichaelK! (Oct 22, 2010)

BadFordRanger said:


> However you math doesn't come out as mine does! My math says 1.5889 kWh's continuously but I'll take the 643 watts to start with! It sure beats 10 watts


Once you've actually connected the last wire and you actually start measuring output, don't be surprised that the "real world" numbers you get don't match what's down on paper. You won't like to hear that, but that's the difference between thinking about something and actually doing it. Why don't you get back to us once you've actually done something. That's a lot more productive than telling us HOW it should work!


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

hmmm,,, did not catch the kwh's part...

that is electrical power during a length of time based in hours.

so 643 watts per 24 hours a day would be

643w x 24 hr/day = 15,432 watt-hours per day or 15.4kwhs per day

for a month 643w x 24 hr/day x 30 days (about) per month = 462960 wh per month

or 462.9kwh per month at about $0.11 per kwh (our electric furnisher) = $50.00 per month.

i've been asked not to post on another thread, but to clarify (anyone still interested) i'll post here again in the quest for true knowledge

UVA is not an engineering school, They make gooood lawyers though. Virginia Tech is the main engineering school in Virginia. although a high school physics teacher should do.

horse power (much like the electrical kilo-watt hours) is not simply torque. rotational mechanical horsepower is a torque @ a certain instantaneous rotational speed (rpm being the usual base). it is a general expression first used by a fellow named savery to lift an ore mining cart (550 lbs if i remember correctly) against gravity so many feet in so many seconds. it would be more accurately titled pony power since the feat was done by four legged animals that worked INSIDE the mine. I think the Shetland pony was used....James watt later redefined the expression. anyway a "horsepower" is not "in a minute" a horsepower is a unit of power at an instant of time, like a watt has no time base until we apply that power over an hour, day or month,etc. we pay electric bills based on watts a month

1 hp = 746 watts, i'm not sure where the poster found the conversion of dividing hp by .743 to obtain watts. but in this context, it is surely incorrect.
if one wanted a divider conversion, the conversion would be 0.00134 (Hp per 1 watt) 

the formula QxH/8.8 has been around for about 300 years without correction and it is the one i (and i thought everyone else) uses to evaluate sites. I know some professors "prove" the formula from basic units, but people like me simply "use" the given formula. I think it will prove sufficient another 300 years.

anyway I'm not trying to win a skunk contest, just trying to put some true numbers and points of view based on my dealings. anyway i think i now learn that the head and flow presented are purely academic, not an actual site. which is ok with me, its exactly how about 30% of my classroom problems are. Mind Games to mimic real life problems.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

BadFordRanger said:


> ...My math says 1.5889 kWh's continuously ...


You might want to rephrase that.

kWh is based on time so it can not be continuous.

I have a feeling you ment just "kW continuously."

WWW


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

wy_white_wolf said:


> You might want to rephrase that.
> 
> kWh is based on time so it can not be continuous.
> 
> ...


OK, how about 1.5889 kW's per hour? 
And I think that you may be right ace. It very well might be 746 watts per HP! It has been a while since I have been thinking about this, but I was close!:boring:


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