# Georgie's health



## Jamie Hodges (Aug 26, 2013)

I have a 23 year old Missouri Fox Trotter that just aborted on Friday. Very sad day for us. We called the vet out cause her after birth wasn't coming out. Examining her, he found a twin. He also discovered she's missing her back bottom teeth. He explained that the top ones keep growing and cause problems with her getting enough food. My husband and I started noticing her getting real thin 2 weeks prior. He started upping her grain and hay. Fed her a pregnant mare supplement. Vet said the combination of her nutrition, the weather, the twins and her teeth were all to blame. We feel awful. We got Georgie 2 years ago. The gentleman we got her from had used her as a brood mare (correct terminology?) he bred her then in hopes of a palomino foal. Gave her to us a few months after she was bred for a place for her to retire. She carried to term but foaled in the night and we woke up to a dead palomino colt. He was really large so we think she had complications delivering. My questions are; does she needs some vitamins or supplements, what is the best way to put weight on her (we are bringing her in to the vet to fix her teeth), and does she need bred again. Personally, I think no. More because I can't deal with another loss. I've never had horses before, but my husband has. We both have a lot to learn. Any suggestions would be very helpful. Thanks.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

Getting her teeth fixed will be a huge help in her overall well being. Equine Sr. is much easier for an oldster with missing teeth to chew and digest. Make sure her hay is good quality and not stemmy.

With her age, health and weight issues she'd probably be better off being retired from being a brood mare.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

No need for breeding ever. She does need her teeth taken care of if you haven't already. That is very important- supremely important. 
I have a 23 year old MFT who is much loved. And most of them are pretty easy keepers. So, with good feed and a close watch that she has no uterine infection, there's a good chance she can become fat and sassy.
What you do has a lot to do with what food sources she has but if she can't grind her food because she has no lower molars, she will need a special diet that older horses get that is easy to digest. 
What did the vet recommend?


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I would also suggest that she be retired from broodmare status. I've had mares that foaled with no issues until they were 25 or so, but once they reach the late teens or early 20s, it seems as if once they have a 'problem pregnancy' they simply do not get back to healthy reproductive status. Age affects everything and it seems as if once one thing goes wrong, more starts going wrong. 

I've got one mare the same age and while she hasn't had a problem, she did not settle last year. I'm going to try again this season, but without any 'heroic' measures ... if she settles, fine, if not, she's entitled to her retirement.


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## Jamie Hodges (Aug 26, 2013)

where I want to said:


> No need for breeding ever. She does need her teeth taken care of if you haven't already. That is very important- supremely important.
> 
> I have a 23 year old MFT who is much loved. And most of them are pretty easy keepers. So, with good feed and a close watch that she has no uterine infection, there's a good chance she can become fat and sassy.
> 
> ...



He recommended the equine sr food which I picked up Friday and started her on, along with penicillin. He also doesn't want us to move her for a few weeks. I wanted to schedule her the next day to get her teeth fixed, but I understand not moving her. I didn't think about asking about any vitamins or supplements. Always think of questions later. We have another mare that is 13 that we can breed, if we so desire. She was bred at the same time as Georgie, but I don't think it took. Georgie won't be bred again. It almost killed her this time. Almost killed me to watch her go through it. I want her to live out the remainder of her life happy and healthy..


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Jamie Hodges said:


> He recommended the equine sr food which I picked up Friday and started her on, along with penicillin. He also doesn't want us to move her for a few weeks. I wanted to schedule her the next day to get her teeth fixed, but I understand not moving her. I didn't think about asking about any vitamins or supplements. Always think of questions later. We have another mare that is 13 that we can breed, if we so desire. She was bred at the same time as Georgie, but I don't think it took. Georgie won't be bred again. It almost killed her this time. Almost killed me to watch her go through it. I want her to live out the remainder of her life happy and healthy..


She sounds lucky to have come into your care.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Assuming this is your husband?



Doug Hodges said:


> As most know I had to leave home this morning until late next Tuesday. While feeding this morning I noticed something hanging out of my mare. She had aborted at 9 months. I found the little palamino colt and bagged him up in a feed sack. I had to leave so I called the vet to come out. He arrived a little bit later and while cleaning her out, he found a twin. Dead also. She had been getting skinnier and skinnier. I had been pouring the feed to her. I couldn't figure out why she was losing weight. Well today explained a lot. The vet said her top teeth are to long and need to be filed. She's not been able to eat correctly, we had a very rough winter and on top of all of that she had twins. I've been trying for 3 years to raise a palomino baby from my Missouri Fox Trotter for my wife. She wants one bad. (I tried breeding to a cremelo And it never took so ended up breeding to a palomino stud. The mare is getting older. Two years ago, she had a beautiful palomino colt that was full term and still born. This time TWINS. Jeez. My wife had to deal with that and has been bawling most of the day. Well, Georgie is permanently retired from breeding as of today. I don't want to kill her. Dang twins. If not for that we probably wouldn't of had any troubles.
> 
> My wife's statement today was "I guess I'm not meant to have one. We've had 3 die"
> 
> ...


You've had for 2 or 3 years and you continued breeding her? Your post kind of sounded like this lost foal was the result of the breeding that occurred before you got her.

I may be misunderstanding something here and I'm not trying to be mean to you because you sound like you are sincerely trying to do the best you can for this mare, but you should not be breeding if you didn't know enough to have a horses teeth checked. I'm glad you stopped breeding this mare, and you should not breed any others till you get some serious knowledge under your belt. If you want a palomino...why not just go out and buy one?


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I like Clovite for older horses, keep their teeth done, worm regularly, blanket if it is cold. I think you live in TX, I blanketed more in the winter when we lived in the Houston area than I do here or did in WI. Blue Norther"s are really hard on old horses and they don't get the coats they get up north.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Molly Mckee said:


> I like Clovite for older horses


I've used Clovite almost all the years I've owned horses, like it very well, broodmares and all. I've also found something recently that seems to work exceptionally well also ... had a yearling that just didn't seem to be gaining the weight she should and someone suggested "Top Cat". Despite the name, it is definitely a horse supplement, a powdered probiotic mix that really did help the yearling and I've started the old mare on it as well.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Since the old mare is having trouble chewing, If you can find some beet pulp shreds w or without molasses added, you can add that to her diet and she will get the fiber she needs.

You should SOAK the beet pulp in warm water - I usually begin with a quart of beet pulp and enough water to cover it and let it sit at least 15 minutes. it will fluff up and then give it a stir and if the mare looks at it suspiciously, you can drop some of her regular feed on it and she'll get the idea soon enough.

Gradually you can increase the amount she eats over time until she is getting about half of her fiber intake from beet pulp. It is great for adding weight and increasing fiber for older horses. It comes in 40-50 lb. bags and can usually be purchased at any tractor supply or farm store. I do not care so much for the beet pulp pellets, I don't think they are as good as the shreds in regards to fiber. 

But I have used them in a pinch until the feed store got the shreds in. 

Oh and let the old gal retire from breeding or you may end up with a worse situation next year. I never breed anymore even though my mare is a world champion in her discipline, if I want another horse, I buy one already broke and ready to ride. Much cheaper than breeding, raising, and training one over four - five years and much more probable that I will get what I want. I bred horses for years and got out in 91 - sold the stallion and all the broodmares. I found it just wasn't worth it in the long run as people are not willing to pay what it cost me to raise breed, raise and train one.


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## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

Just to clarify. Georgie is a direct descendent of Lady Anne, Missouri traveler. Honey Bee, etc. She wasn't bred year before last. She was so fat last spring that people that came by swore she would foal anytime. One guy in particular said he has had horses 20 years and was ready to bet my wife that she was bred. (Ups guy I think) she's always been the lead mare. She has been super healthy on our place. She's the boss. She rules the farm and all the animals. 

I grew up with MTF's. One mare in particular had foals for us into her late 20's and I believe even foaled in her 30's. I don't know how old she was when she died but I know she had a 35th birthday. Dad sold her in her late 20's. I lost track of her. She was a cremello named lightning. 

I took Georgie to a breeder last year. He checked her over. He has several mares in their 20's. At that time, she looked as good as any 10 year old. I haven't looked at her teeth as I have been on the road since this happened but last spring her teeth were fine. Personally I don't know the vet that came out but I tend to trust breeders and people that have been around horses all their life (in this breeders case I think 65 years)

I truly believe if Georgie hadn't tried to give us twins that she would still be carrying a foal now and would be fat as a tick. It's hard on any horse to try to carry twins to maturity. The twins looked full size already. She almost did it. I had no idea. 

Georgie is officially retired. She's going to get the pleasure of living the rest of her life with us. I fully expect her to make 40. I bet she will be her spunky self very shortly. 

By the way, our real estate agent bought a Shetland from is when he was a kid. She lived to be 40 something. (Isn't that what he said, Jamie or was it 30 something) (I'm 49) He told us that at our house closing two years ago. Said he missed her. 


Thanks everyone for all the advice. We just let our horses get old growing up. This is the first one I've decided to keep until death. I'm always willing to learn more about how to take care of an aging brood mare.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Jamie Hodges said:


> Georgie won't be bred again. It almost killed her this time. Almost killed me to watch her go through it. I want her to live out the remainder of her life happy and healthy..


Have the posters who are continuing to criticize (not all that politely in some cases) the OP for asking if she should breed this older mare back actually read this response which posted not long after the first recommendations that the mare be retired as a broodmare?

I'm afraid I don't see the point in continuing to vent regarding a situation that does not exist ... i.e. the mare is obviously not going to be bred back. I would imagine the OP is already upset about losing the foal, which she was obviously looking forward to.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Lady Anne- that's something. I hope she gets back to her normal self soon. Teeth issues can be a real problem with older horses.
But it's not always so straight forward. I have an older post about my quidding mare. After repeat teeth work, turn out her problem was was ulcers. She's doing great now but it was a winding path to figure it out.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

When we lived in TX all I could get were the beet pulp pellets. I let them soak between feedings. I will also feed horses that need to gain 3 times a day, so I would feed the soaked beet pulp, rinse the bucket well and start the next feeding soaking. 

Years ago a friend of mine had a barn full of horses that had been loosing weight and an auction coming up. Her ex starved the horses, she got a court order to take them over until sold, ex took their kids to South America. Anyway, she feed every 6 hours, around the clock and got the horses back into shape before the auction. She couldn't postpone the auction as the ex had everything in hock to the bank.

If you need to put weight on a horse or just need to save some money, you can feed less (total) if you feed more often.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

SFM in KY said:


> Have the posters who are continuing to criticize (not all that politely in some cases) the OP for asking if she should breed this older mare back actually read this response which posted not long after the first recommendations that the mare be retired as a broodmare?
> 
> I'm afraid I don't see the point in continuing to vent regarding a situation that does not exist ... i.e. the mare is obviously not going to be bred back. I would imagine the OP is already upset about losing the foal, which she was obviously looking forward to.


Yes. Did you see the part where she said she had another mare to breed? I don't believe I was impolite at all.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Yes. Did you see the part where she said she had another mare to breed? I don't believe I was impolite at all.


I wasn't referring to your post specifically and didn't find your last post impolite, you asked for more information.

The OP's specific statement was "We have another mare that is 13 that we can breed, *if we so desire."* (italics mine).

I can't find that she's stated she is definitely going to breed the younger mare or that the mare has any issues that would keep her from being safely bred. Under these circumstances, healthy mare of reasonable age that could be bred if the owner chooses, I'm afraid I do find the emphasis on 'don't breed/buy' a bit inflexible.


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## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

Both mares are registered MFT's. Both are Lady Anne descendants. They have excellent blood lines. I'm including pics of Angel. I'm even showing her teeth. The last two pics are Georgie after coming through last winter.
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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I prefer free choice grass hay and supplement with either calf manna or beet pulp if needed and start small and gradually increase over a couple weeks. Because the old gal needs a dentist, I wouldn't expect too much from pellets or grain right now because she's likely dropping quite a bit so soaked beet pulp would likely be the direction I would go. 

If not already in place, you should provide salt and mineral as well (deficiencies in both can result in a retained placenta). 

I think it's wise to not rebreed her and I've found that once old gals start having problems, it seldom resolves. 

I think it's perfectly normal to question what could have been done differently and after all these years, I still assess every mortality to ensure I did everything I could and sometimes the learning curve can be steep. 

I imported heifers out of Colorado several years ago and one calf was sold before it was born based on genetics. Unfortunately, selenium is not a problem in my part of the county but is was where she came from so I lost the calf to white muscle disease and the only thing I gained was a significant education in selenium.


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## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

They get free choice alfalfa/orchard grass hay. They also get free choice Stockman brand minerals.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Doug Hodges said:


> Just to clarify. Georgie is a direct descendent of Lady Anne, Missouri traveler. Honey Bee, etc.


My TB mare goes back to Man O'War, Nashua, Bold Buler, and Native Dancer but it's so far back in her pedigree that's it's nearly worthless to mention. It's like saying I have the same traits as my great great great grandmother- there's a whole lot of genetics between her and me. 

Twins are _always_ bad for a mare, and rarely survive birth. In fact, when caught on ultrasound a twin is usually "pinched" or the mare aborted.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

There have been several threads recently ... here, including one that was locked, as well as several on other forums I'm on ... and FB ... that have all immediately generated into rather aggressive posts regarding breeding, stallions, etc.

I suppose I'm as guilty as anyone else ... long winter, short temper and a touch of Cabin Fever on my part as well as everyone else's ... but some of my reaction is also due to my being at least one generation older than most posters and having been raised to believe that being polite to people was critical. 

At any rate, it seemed as if this thread, for me, was pretty much the straw that broke the camel's back, the last of several irritations. If I insulted anyone specifically without cause, I apologize.

However, I will still stand by my original feeling. When suggesting a course of action to someone, or trying to educate them, a tactful response is more likely to change behavior than confrontation. In my opinion, kindness and consideration is never misplaced.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I can certainly accept that different people have different opinions about things and I have no issues with that nor do I believe that my opinions are right and someone else's wrong. They are just different.

I can even accept that what one person may consider "telling it like it is" may well be what I consider confrontational and rude. However, nobody will ever convince me that I have to like it ... again, most likely a difference in generations and background.


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## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> My TB mare goes back to Man O'War, Nashua, Bold Buler, and Native Dancer but it's so far back in her pedigree that's it's nearly worthless to mention. It's like saying I have the same traits as my great great great grandmother- there's a whole lot of genetics between her and me.
> 
> Twins are _always_ bad for a mare, and rarely survive birth. In fact, when caught on ultrasound a twin is usually "pinched" or the mare aborted.



I'm sorry. When I say direct descendants. I mean grandpa, grandma and great grandma. I don't know a whole heck of a lot about a lot of these horses but I've been told this is a nice pedigree. 
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## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

SFM in KY said:


> There have been several threads recently ... here, including one that was locked, as well as several on other forums I'm on ... and FB ... that have all immediately generated into rather aggressive posts regarding breeding, stallions, etc.
> 
> I suppose I'm as guilty as anyone else ... long winter, short temper and a touch of Cabin Fever on my part as well as everyone else's ... but some of my reaction is also due to my being at least one generation older than most posters and having been raised to believe that being polite to people was critical.
> 
> ...



I was raised in the hills of north central Arkansas. Grew up on a farm with cows. Horses. Pigs. Etc. Worked on a Charloais farm while in college. Helped my cousin with milking all the time while growing up. I just turned 49. I think it's how you were raised. Not necessarily an age thing.


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## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> I have no clue if those names mean anything either... You probably should if you're breeding those lines, shouldn't you?
> 
> 
> 
> That's still 3-4-5 generations, I consider back 2 at most, but that's just me. :shrug:



Hopefully someone that knows about this pedigree can chime in. The breeder said it was impressive but of course he would. It was his horse since she hit the ground on his property almost 23 years ago. 

I must reiterate, we aren't breeding Georgie again. Therefore the pedigree is irrelevant except for the fact that it was brought up about breeding horses. I really wanted a daughter(or son) out of her.


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## Jamie Hodges (Aug 26, 2013)

Jeez people. Just wanted some opinions on what to feed her to get her back to her old self. I did ask if she should be bred again. Just a general question. Not that I intended to. We got her 3 years ago bred. The colt died. I would have been happy whether it was a palomino or sorrel like her. I wanted a foal to have something for the kids and I to raise. I understand the costs of training and everything that goes with it. The gentleman that gave us Georgie thought it would be best to give her to us, so we could experience the birth and imprint. Otherwise, he could have given us one already born and raised on his farm. He's raised and bred horses all his life. Had Georgie from a few months old till he gave her to us. I trust his judgment. If he thought we "needed a little more experience under our belt" first, he wouldn't have given her to us. My mom has a horse that has teeth problems. He drops his grain while eating. He is in great condition physically. So to imply that she is in the shape she's in just because of her teeth, isn't correct. I think it was the twins and the winter and maybe her teeth. Like my husband said, he had the breeder check her over before she was bred. This past spring was the only time we have bred her. 

I think horse lines are very important. Just like where I come from. My grandma is Armenian and great grandma. I'm only a quarter. So you don't think that's important? Not something I should brag about? Our heritage makes us who we are. Georgie is old, so lady Anne, Zane grey, aren't that far back. 

Opinions are great. That's why there's sites like this. To help people be better and do better for their animals. If you can't show a little restraint in your opinions, you should keep them to yourself. 

I appreciate all the helpful opinions on things I should feed Georgie. Thank you.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Doug Hodges said:


> They get free choice alfalfa/orchard grass hay. They also get free choice Stockman brand minerals.


The reason I mentioned beet pulp shreds is that a horse that is having teeth issues often cannot fully chew hay and so the beet pulp takes the place of the hay and provides fiber to the horse which keeps the digestive system humming.

I've had many very old horses that I took in that were pretty near starved to death and brought them back with beet pulp and senior feed soaked. The soaking also makes for easier digestion if the horse can't chew as well and the older they get, the less nutrients the gut absorbs due to plain old aging. Corn oil is another "fattener" that most horses like, but you have to start out with a small amount and work your way up as too much will cause a laxative effect. But for calorie content alone, corn oil is one of the best on the market but it can be priced higher than other alternatives. 

Nice looking horses, I like the funny one of the pinto smiling - lol..


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Maybe we should concentrate our energies on good ideas and suggestions for getting this little mare back to feeling better.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

I don't know what I missed, but wanted to ask how the mare is doing? Did the vet bolus her after she aborted? I tended to be extra careful watching for signs of infection that could linger in the birth canal, uterine area after an still birth or aborted foal. 
You can lift her tail and check to make sure there is no abnormal greenish or white puss looking drainage from that area. Just a way to check on her and if you see any hint of that, call the vet. Oh and generally it may be a smelly discharge if she gets an infection. Also check her bag and make sure that it is not extremely hot feeling, some mare's make a lot of milk and when they abort right before foaling they can get a bit of mastitis in the bag. You can feel the bag and see if it feels "hard" or hot to touch. The mare might be a bit tender until the bag goes down but that is also a good thing to check as it can set up an infection. I never milked the mare out unless advised by the vet to relieve some of the pressure on a particularly heavy milker. Milking them out makes more milk so not really solving the problem - lol..

Well have to get to work now, so hope that Georgie is doing better. BTW, I did a bit of internet research as I have heard of Lady Anne before.

Here is a picture of her:

http://foxtrotters.tripod.com/ladya.jpg

and here is something about Missouri Traveller:

http://www.missourifoxtrottersatoz.com/OLD TIME FOXTROTTERS PAGE 2.htm

Scroll down the page and you will see a picture of him and more details and a reference to Lady Anne. I believe she is a foundation mare for the breed as there are many references to her within my research.

I think knowing a pedigree is nice whether one breeds or not, it can give some indication as to the talents a horse may have, inherited traits, and also inherited genetic defects. If I had more time, I am sure I could find more. 

One thing you can do and I believe all breed registery have this and that is call them and ask them what they can tell your about your pedigree. Some may charge a few dollars but will send a history.


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## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

Thank you is much for that. Yes. We have studied it some. But you found things I hadn't seen. We know Georgie is a special mare. Thanks again.

Edit 
Wow. Didn't know that about Missouri travelor. He is her grandpa on one side and her great grandpa on the other side. So of course Lady Anne and Zane Grey are on both sides too. Very very special lady. So sad we couldn't get a foal from her.

Another edit. Lol
My wife said I've slept since then. She said we read this before.


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## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

To answer your question. He cleaned her out. She had a round of antibiotics. Since she was only 9 months, I didn't check her bag. I will. I looked at it the day she aborted and only got back home yesterday from a business related trip.


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## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

Wonder if that's Georgie in that pic. Did it reference a date?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Is she starting to perk up a bit?


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## Jamie Hodges (Aug 26, 2013)

sidepasser said:


> I don't know what I missed, but wanted to ask how the mare is doing? Did the vet bolus her after she aborted? I tended to be extra careful watching for signs of infection that could linger in the birth canal, uterine area after an still birth or aborted foal.
> You can lift her tail and check to make sure there is no abnormal greenish or white puss looking drainage from that area. Just a way to check on her and if you see any hint of that, call the vet. Oh and generally it may be a smelly discharge if she gets an infection. Also check her bag and make sure that it is not extremely hot feeling, some mare's make a lot of milk and when they abort right before foaling they can get a bit of mastitis in the bag. You can feel the bag and see if it feels "hard" or hot to touch. The mare might be a bit tender until the bag goes down but that is also a good thing to check as it can set up an infection. I never milked the mare out unless advised by the vet to relieve some of the pressure on a particularly heavy milker. Milking them out makes more milk so not really solving the problem - lol..
> 
> Well have to get to work now, so hope that Georgie is doing better. BTW, I did a bit of internet research as I have heard of Lady Anne before.
> ...



Doug felt of her bag and it was cold. No discharge or smells. The store was out of beet pulp so bought alfalfa pellets(give her one cup) and have been soaking it and mixing BOSS(handful) with it(read online that a lot of people have used it to put weight back on their horse) I also crush it so she won't drop any out. Also mix the senior feed with it. I've been watching her eat. She's not dropping anything..
Doug


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## Jamie Hodges (Aug 26, 2013)

wr said:


> Is she starting to perk up a bit?



She's getting back to her ornery self..looks a lot better too


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

That sounds good!


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

Happy to hear she's bouncing back.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Glad to hear she's improving.


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