# The Death of the .40 S&W



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Anybody read the new G&A?

They say that the FBI is going back to the 9mm and are predicting the death of the .40, based on several factors.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I don't see it happening , completely , I understand it is harder to train officers with 40 , it as a cartridge is harder on the guns , you give up a touch of capacity , and bonded bullets make it less necessary.


about 50% or more of law enforcement is currently carrying 40 , it's gonna take time for any change on that large of a scale after all there are still departments that only use 45acp

you have to remember that when the 40 was conceived a lot of departments were still carrying hard ball ammo , seems like an odd concept but I recall reading NYC didn't stop using FMJ till the late 90s 

I keep hearing this has more to do with $$ in budgets than what police want , there is the potential to save many thousands in training budgets in even small departments 9mm ammo almost half the price of 40 and with newer projectiles they are saying nearly as effective

what I do believe is true , is that if you had 10 gun shot victims over a weeks time all see the same ER surgeon , all with wounds where the dr was unable to measure the projectile , that the DR could not tell you which was hit with a 9 and which was hit with a 40 

energy can vary as much between 2 loads for 40 as the difference between a 9 and 40 load and bullet performance can do more than another mm of width in the barrel

when bullet performance is questionable a bigger bullet helps

but bullet performance isn't the big ? it once was


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## bassmaster17327 (Apr 6, 2011)

Why would the .40 die just because police are not using it? Police don't use a lot of calibers and they are not dead, I do believe that .380 is going to die out since so many 9mm are coming out that are just as small


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## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

bassmaster17327 said:


> Why would the .40 die just because police are not using it? Police don't use a lot of calibers and they are not dead, I do believe that .380 is going to die out since so many 9mm are coming out that are just as small


I don't see .40 dying as there are too many out there. The .380 is still popular for CCW. When the FBI dropped the 10mm, did that die?


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## Snowfan (Nov 6, 2011)

I don't think the .40 will die. I don't think the 10mm will become that popular. I still like my .45 ACP. Just my opinion.


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

I don't see the 40 disappearing, although I don't have one, I'd like too.

I've got two 9mm's and I like both, even though my carry is a just a five shot 38. I was trying to size down what I was reloading for, was the reason for no 40.

Should have known that is no reason?


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Wasn't all those million of rounds of hollow points the government bought in .40 cal.?


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## idigbeets (Sep 3, 2011)

Fire Sale !! C'mon !


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

JJ Grandits said:


> Wasn't all those million of rounds of hollow points the government bought in .40 cal.?



those millions of rounds came to about 600 per agent / employee per year 

I sure hope they spend more time shooting than a monthly emptying of their magazines and refill at any time an agent is likely to be carrying 16 in the gun 15x3 mags is 61 rounds


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Hi Guys,
See I buy a 40 s&w and the FBI stops using it? The last time was when they dropped the 10mm. I guess they will be safe as I have nothing but contempt for 9mm parabelum. So they continue in the if it isn't current news we will not learn from it. So I guess they will need to have several agents killed because the 9mm is a poor cartridge, again!
I've shot a lot of 45acp and 10mm its only a couple months ago I bought 40 S&W top for my Sig-Sauer 229 I have to admit I still prefer it in 357 Sig. Recoil is pretty mild to me in all of the above. the 40 S&W reminds me of 38 special!
That most cops get very little firearms training and I doubt they get any were enough training, to get really familiar with semi- autos of any kind. I'm not sure they shouldn't go back to K frame S&W revolvers. much easier to teach and learn. But you can bet the FBI will not remember any of that.
Dutch


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Jolly said:


> Anybody read the new G&A?
> 
> They say that the FBI is going back to the 9mm and are predicting the death of the .40, based on several factors.


The FBI is the same crowd that thought the 10 mm would replace other rounds.
Their opinions mean nothing and the 40 is here to stay


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Hey, if anybody reloads .40, I've got a large ziplock bag full of once fired brass you can have for the cost of shipping....my guess is something like 500rds or so. I don't have a .40 or reload for it. 

Buddy of mine brought me a big trash bag of mixed .223 and .40 off a private security company's range, and I only wanted the .223. It ain't pretty, not cleaned AT ALL, some of it stepped on and bent (outdoor range), but it you want it for the cost of shipping to your zip code, PM me.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The FBI is the same crowd that thought the 10 mm would replace other rounds.
> Their opinions mean nothing and the 40 is here to stay


The FBI is going back to the 9.

The Army is getting ready to buy almost 300,000 pistols, also rumored to be in 9.

As the police .40's break (and they will, as a .40 tends to be hard on a frame that was built for 9x19), and they trade those in for new 9's, there will be less and less.

Consider...the .38 Super was also THE cartridge at one time...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Jolly said:


> The FBI is going back to the 9.
> 
> The Army is getting ready to buy almost 300,000 pistols, also rumored to be in 9.
> 
> ...


38 Supers were never "the" cartridge for police or military in the US, and the Army has made no decisions on the cartridge for the new MHS.

The FBI is going back to the 9 because so many of them are poor shots with anything more powerful, and advances in bullet design has made terminal performance very similar to the 40.

The notions the frames can't take the extra abuse is silly, since a simple spring replacement or heavier slide offsets the minor increase in recoil

The 40 has been here a couple of decades and will continue to be around


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> 38 Supers were never "the" cartridge for police or military in the US, and the Army has made no decisions on the cartridge for the new MHS.
> 
> The FBI is going back to the 9 because so many of them are poor shots with anything more powerful, and advances in bullet design has made terminal performance very similar to the 40.
> 
> ...


1. The .38 Super was a derivative of the .38 ACP, and was popular during the early part of the 20th century, as it could defeat the body armor of the time. Lot os LEO's carried Supers at that time. And the Super was extremely popular in South America, due to caliber restrictions on civilian use.

2. Talk to police armorers. I've been told by everyone I talked to, that worked in a department of any size, that the .40 breaks more than the 9x19. You can argue however you'd like, but physics is physics. .40's recoil more than 9's and in the same size frame (regardless of spring) the gun takes more of a battering.

3. Shooting with LEO's, U.S. Marshals and a few FBI guys has led me to a conclusion..._as a general rule,and pertaining to the guys I've shot with, the Feds seem to shoot a bit better_...maybe it's because they have to shoot more often, I dunno. The observation stands, though.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> 1. The .38 Super was a derivative of the .38 ACP, and was popular during the *early part of the 20th century*, as it could defeat the body armor of the time. Lot os LEO's carried Supers at that time. And the Super was extremely *popular in South America*, due to caliber restrictions on civilian use.


That doesn't mean it was ever really popular *here*, and it was never a "common" LEO caliber.

Up until the late 60's and early 70's, most carried LEO's 38 Spcl or .357 revolvers 
When they started turning to semi's they were mostly 9's and 45's

In the mid 90's the 40 came along and quickly became the most popular LEO round

40's really don't break more than 9's, nor any other semi auto round.

Most never break at all.

The 40 isn't going anywhere just because the FBI can't handle it as well, which is the reason they gave for the switch


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## Snowfan (Nov 6, 2011)

Did I mention I like my .45 ACP? Well, I do. Although my "what was that" at 3:00 am gun is a .38 spl revolver.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Snowfan said:


> Did I mention I like my .45 ACP? Well, I do. Although my "what was that" at 3:00 am gun is a .38 spl revolver.


The problem with the hi-cap 45's is the grips are too large for many people, which is why the 40 became so popular.

It fits in a 9 mm frame and only gives up a couple of rounds in capacity.

Some Depts allow officers a choice, but the majority prefer to at least keep calibers the same


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## kdalton324 (Jun 20, 2015)

The department I work for is working on switching over to the 40 right now.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

> 40's really don't break more than 9's, nor any other semi auto round.


Excuse me, but what police department are you the armorer for?

Are you telling me that the people who work down here, don't know what they're doing?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Jolly said:


> Excuse me, but what police department are you the armorer for?
> 
> Are you telling me that the people who work down here, don't know what they're doing?


I don't work for any PD, but a couple of my best friends own gun shops and are gunsmiths. 

I worked for one of them for 6 years and we didn't repair 40's any more than other cartridges

If the folks you know can't keep a 40 from breaking, they obviously don't have much skill.

It's simple physics in that a heavier slide or stronger spring makes the "abuse" on the frame identical to a 9 mm or 45 ACP.

40's that came from the factory as 40's already have those features.

The 40 is here to stay


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I don't work for any PD, but a couple of my best friends own gun shops and are gunsmiths.
> 
> I worked for one of them for 6 years and we didn't repair 40's any more than other cartridges
> 
> ...


I started to say something, but thought better of it.

Some folks just know more than anybody else...


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

I did a small presentation for Probation & Parole this last week.

They were told two weeks ago they will be ditching their .40's and going to 9mm. I don't know how many officers that would be statewide, but it will be several hundred.


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I don't work for any PD, but a couple of my best friends own gun shops and are gunsmiths.
> 
> I worked for one of them for 6 years and we didn't repair 40's any more than other cartridges
> 
> ...


Your information is in contradiction to what I've seen some long time LEOs describe, in some large departments. I'm sure their sample sizes of hundreds of guns doesnt compare to a couple of local gunsmiths though, and factory trained armorers dont have a clue how to work on their guns or keep them running.

The comments from long timers are pretty consistent on the matter.

I have no doubt the 40 isnt going to dry up and blow away any time soon, even though the trend is back towards 9's in many departments across the country.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Your information is in contradiction to what I've seen some *long time LEOs* describe, in some *large departments*. I'm sure their sample sizes of hundreds of guns doesnt compare to a couple of local gunsmiths though, and *factory trained armorers *dont have a clue how to work on their guns or keep them running.


We have all those things here too.

You'd be surprised at how many of them like to hang out at gun shops and talk about guns and gun problems.

What you've heard doesn't change what I've seen, whether it's "contradictory" or not

The 40's are every bit as reliable as the 9's and will be here longer than most of us


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## Drizler (Jun 16, 2002)

JJ Grandits said:


> Wasn't all those million of rounds of hollow points the government bought in .40 cal.?




Don't worry they aren't shooting as much as they used to. CBP used to shoot 4 times a year and went to twice / year last year. They must be getting a tad tight in the budget.


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## MisterG (Jun 29, 2015)

Jolly said:


> Excuse me, but what police department are you the armorer for?
> 
> Are you telling me that the people who work down here, don't know what they're doing?


No, I think they are saying they are the most informed and know more than anyone else, just ask them. 
Too funny:hysterical::hysterical:


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## MisterG (Jun 29, 2015)

http://www.thebangswitch.com/the-fading-40/
this is an older article but shows that this is not a new trend to go away from the .40 S&W. 
There are people who love their .40 and would never get rid of it. The majority of people will have a favorite cartridge of choice, but the ongoing trend is that the .40 is becoming less popular in law enforcement.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

MisterG said:


> http://www.thebangswitch.com/the-fading-40/
> this is an older article but shows that this is not a new trend to go away from the .40 S&W.
> There are people who love their .40 and would never get rid of it. The majority of people will have a favorite cartridge of choice, *but the ongoing trend is that the .40 is becoming less popular in law enforcement.*


Which in a way may help it with the "civilian" market as trade in .40s are plentiful. 

CDNN for example:

http://www.cdnnsports.com/firearms.html?cat=20

Not a .40 fan myself, much prefer 9mm and .45ACP. I may pick one up though, just because the used pistols are going pretty cheap. 

Chuck


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Chuck R. said:


> Which in a way may help it with the "civilian" market as trade in .40s are plentiful.
> 
> CDNN for example:
> 
> ...


Another benefit is the availibility of ammo. During the recent shortage, there was .40 on the shelf, without a hint of 9mm anywhere...Don't know exactly whay, just was


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

There's actually some legitimacy to both side of the longevity debate. The situation Bear is describing; at the counters of the gunshops, you'll never see a difference in longevity between the two cartridges because, except in a few notable examples where the first models had the .40 shoehorned into the design. Any margin between the two is going to be too small to detect in the round counts that most shooter put through their weapons. 

This changes in agency use, though. They actually use their guns hard enough to have to implement a revolving door in their arms room property books. If there is going to be a delta trend between the two, this is the only place it is ever going to show up.

BUT, one can't say that all .40s break more often than all 9mms. It really is a design-specific metric. What brakes parts on most autoloaders (rifles of pistols) is bolt/slide velocity, not bullet weight or velocity. 

Slide velocity starts with breech thrust and, even though 9mm and .40 have comparable pressures, the base of a .40 cartridge has about 20% more surface against which it pushes. Being slightly higher pressure, the .40 exerts almost 25% more thrust against the slide (4900 lbs, vs 4000 lbs in the 9mm). Even a 9mm+p only splits the difference at about 4500 lbs. 

How the designers deal with this increase in breech thrust, and its resulting slide velocity, is what determines the resulting wear & tear on the weapon. Now, after many lessons learned with earlier designs, most use a combination of increased spring rates, increased slide weights, and, in some cases, changes to barrel link/cam geometry to delay unlock. 

Obviously, all three can work to slow down the slide, but slide velocity, like cartridge pressure, is not a linear function. I've seen slide velocity charts (and BV charts, for that matter) that show an equal average velocity, but have peaky segments that implied accelerated component wear would have occured, relative to other calibers, had the design settled on that revision. 

So, the play-out is that the relative service life of the major components of the weapon end up being a function of how well the designers tamed the faster/peakier slide velocity of the heavier cartridge, in this case the .40 S&W. 

Generally, designs that rely entirely on either a heavier slide or heavier spring may achieve comparable peak slide velocities between their 9s and 40s, but they are probably also going to have peakier accelerations and decellerations that are going to do more harm, long term, than the faster peak would have by itself. Designers who manage to find the right balance between all three design features can/will end up with a .40 variant that lasts just as long as their 9.

If agencies' armorers are telling you that they are experiencing higher rates of failure with their .40s than they did with their 9s, that really doesn't tell you anything equivocal about the cartridges, but it should tell you a lot about the quality of, and resources allowed, the design engineers of that specific manufacturer.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Let me see if I can boil an excellent post down to just a few words...

For the average person, most will not notice much difference in longevity of .40 S&W vs. 9x19 pistols, even if the design better suits a 9. In heavy use, however, unless one has good information on the quality of the design he is choosing, the 9 is the safer bet in regards to longevity.

That about right?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Not quite. Mostly, though. 
Agree fully with the first sentence, but the second one is not entirely true.

Most product design cycles start with the most common configuration first, with secondary engineering efforts being applied to the less-common configurations to come later as product line extensions.

This means that most of the time, the 9mm comes before the .40 S&W. But, the .40 S&W was actually carrying the water, for some market segments, for the last several years, so there are some recent designs that started there. The S&W M&P, for example, was originally designed as a .40, and later ported to 9mm, and S&W actually had some reliability issues, if not service-life ones, with the 9mm at first. _Edit: I guess this is probably what you were saying with "_unless one has good information..._", so I suppose I agree with most of the second sentence as well. Sorry._

If the .40 loses some of the ground that it made against the 9mm in the last decade, it is because of improvements in bullet design mitigating some of its advantage, and the inherent advantages that he 9mm already carried, not the reliability/durability delta between the guns that shoot them.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Jolly said:


> Another benefit is the availibility of ammo. During the recent shortage, there was .40 on the shelf, without a hint of 9mm anywhere...Don't know exactly whay, just was


Agreed, I never even consider that due to reloading everything, but for the factory ammo shooters it can be a big deal.

I was thinking about picking up a .40 Glock, just because it seems to be the PD standard around here. Maybe a .40 SIG (and I detest DA/SA pistols) just because for another $140 or so I could have a .357SIG. There really are some good prices right now on 226s and 229s. 

Chuck


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## Drizler (Jun 16, 2002)

I see most of the "this is better than that" argument as just plain marketing. Most of it is a tad of truth along with a hefty dose of bullcrap and a lot of marketing hype. In the end you want something that you aren't afraid to shoot, too heavy to lug around, has enough rounds to hopefully not run dry and still most likely hit what you are shooting at. Guys with hands like catchers mitts can't use a girly gun well and most girlies can't deal with a model 27 Smith and neither want's to. You have to find something that fits you and you like . Even then there will always be some kind of compromise. Unfortunately all the marketing bullcrap doesn't help at all. These guys making this stuff would love nothing more than to be able to keep you buying and selling constantly.


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> what I do believe is true , is that if you had 10 gun shot victims over a weeks time all see the same ER surgeon , all with wounds where the dr was unable to measure the projectile , that the DR could not tell you which was hit with a 9 and which was hit with a 40


Agreed.


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## Drizler (Jun 16, 2002)

And if you really want to plow somebody and not worry about over penetration issues like the kid in the next room get some Glazer Safety Slugs. They come in all the popular calibers and are pretty much nothing but a copper case filled with birdshot. Huge shallow messy hole but won't go through period . Hit a wall and it's coming apart so even if it goes into the next room :nono:it will be in pretty much depleted energy fragments. Much safer for everybody except the criminal if you have nearby neighbors.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Drizler said:


> And if you really want to plow somebody and not worry about over penetration issues like the kid in the next room get some Glazer Safety Slugs. They come in all the popular calibers and are pretty much nothing but a copper case filled with birdshot. Huge shallow messy hole but won't go through period . Hit a wall and it's coming apart so even if it goes into the next room :nono:it will be in pretty much depleted energy fragments. Much safer for everybody except the criminal if you have nearby neighbors.


 
Except&#8230;.. 
There&#8217;s a reason why a certain (IAW FBI testing 12-18&#8221 level of penetration is desirable to achieve physiological incapacitation against a human assailant. The only way to instantly stop a determined attacker is by hitting the brain, brain stem or central nervous system above the waist. Anything else may achieve a psychological stop IE the assailant may stop due to either not wanting to get shot again or being conditioned to stop because &#8220;they got shot and that&#8217;s what they&#8217;re supposed to do&#8221;. An assailant may also "bleed out" from lesser hits, but that takes time. Much like a deer running after a lethal hit, an assailant can do an awful lot of mischief waiting to "bleed out". I suggest reading about the FBI&#8217;s &#8220;Miami Shootout&#8221; which was pretty much the root cause for the adoption of the .40. 

It cannot be said enough, any ammunition/firearm capable of reliably stopping a human threat is going to penetrate walls, there&#8217;s no free lunch to be had. Best you can do is train to mitigate your odds of missing, and know the &#8220;sectors&#8221; of fire in your house. Go with less dependable ammo or defensive tool and you may well come up short against a determined opponent. 

Everybody worries about overpenetration, but I know the layout of my house, where my family sleeps etc. the other guy doesn&#8217;t and more importantly doesn&#8217;t care. The possibility exists for 2 or more to be shooting. The faster the event is brought to closure the better. 

Here are some references:

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/

My favorite, how handguns wound:

http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf

IMHO everybody interested in SD with a handgun should read the above link to understand how handguns &#8220;work&#8221; on people. 

Chuck


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## brownegg (Jan 5, 2006)

Yep, the FBI will go back to the 9 just long enough to find that they are outgunned with 40's and 45's shooting back....then they will go back to the 40's again....

brownegg


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## Drizler (Jun 16, 2002)

brownegg said:


> Yep, the FBI will go back to the 9 just long enough to find that they are outgunned with 40's and 45's shooting back....then they will go back to the 40's again....
> 
> brownegg



Having worked in Federal LE all my life I don't give a lot of credit to their judgement in firearms related things. Most of the guys who make these decisions aren't anywhere near expert in anything with the exception of career climbing. That's the unfortunate truth of it:shrug:. Add to it political considerations, where it's made and of course cost and lobbying and you might as well use a dart board to pick a gun:icecream:. The only really good one I was ever carried was the Glock 23 I bought myself and have today.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Chuck R. said:


> Exceptâ¦..
> Thereâs a reason why a certain (IAW FBI testing 12-18â) level of penetration is desirable to achieve physiological incapacitation against a human assailant. The only way to instantly stop a determined attacker is by hitting the brain, brain stem or central nervous system above the waist. Anything else may achieve a psychological stop IE the assailant may stop due to either not wanting to get shot again or being conditioned to stop because âthey got shot and thatâs what theyâre supposed to doâ. An assailant may also "bleed out" from lesser hits, but that takes time. Much like a deer running after a lethal hit, an assailant can do an awful lot of mischief waiting to "bleed out". I suggest reading about the FBIâs âMiami Shootoutâ which was pretty much the root cause for the adoption of the .40.
> 
> It cannot be said enough, any ammunition/firearm capable of reliably stopping a human threat is going to penetrate walls, thereâs no free lunch to be had. Best you can do is train to mitigate your odds of missing, and know the âsectorsâ of fire in your house. Go with less dependable ammo or defensive tool and you may well come up short against a determined opponent.
> ...



those were a good read


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> those were a good read


The FBI article is a little dated, but if you focus on the "how" incapacitation works, is still pretty relevant as the human body hasnât changed much since 1989 (maybe a little fatter, requiring more penetration). 



> *CONCLUSIONS*
> *Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.*
> 
> *The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.*


I think the important thing is to find a balance between your weapon, cartridge, and capability to shoot it well under stress. Which is probably the âwhyâ behind the FBI and a lot of law enforcement agencies are moving back to 9mm. Although the FBI states theyâve found some 9mm loads more effective than .40 loads, I think itâs more that the âsumâ of the 9mm, extra capacity, training cost, ability to shoot well under stress, is greater than the âsumâ of the .40. 

Chuck


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## tamarackreg (Mar 13, 2006)

I carry, play with, load, and shoot a lot of .40 S&W - no 9mm or .45. My next gun purchase may very well be a pistol - 5" S&W M&P C.O.R.E. in .40 S&W.

However, were I in charge of arming a public entity it would be 9mm all the way - cheaper, more user friendly, cheaper, more conducive to learning and quality practice, cheaper, arguably "just as effective" and cheaper. Did I mention cheaper?


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## wannabfarmer (Jun 30, 2015)

My father has a .40 and loves it and says he will never get rid of it. I prefer the .45 but not the .45 price. 9mm are significantly cheaper and user friendly I guess. I have 1 .45 pistol and 3 9mm pistols. As far as reliability I was reading in earlier posts I believe it's all in how you care for your firearms that makes a difference. But just because the government is stopping the issue of the .40 doesn't mean it will dry up, I feel it will just have a surplus for citizens and we will get them at a reduced price to recoup the investment they made in it. It's not going anywhere just taking a back seat.


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## brownegg (Jan 5, 2006)

It's hands down the best pistol for the money....S&W 40cal M&P !

brownegg


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

Drizler said:


> And if you really want to plow somebody and not worry about over penetration issues like the kid in the next room get some Glazer Safety Slugs...


 The Glasers have been tested with modern methods and in use over time and been pretty well dismissed as to their real usefulness or effectiveness. They fall into the "magic bullet" category.




Chuck R. said:


> It cannot be said enough, any ammunition/firearm capable of reliably stopping a human threat is going to penetrate walls, there&#8217;s no free lunch to be had. Best you can do is train to mitigate your odds of missing, and know the &#8220;sectors&#8221; of fire in your house. Go with less dependable ammo or defensive tool and you may well come up short against a determined opponent.
> 
> Everybody worries about overpenetration, but I know the layout of my house, where my family sleeps etc. the other guy doesn&#8217;t and more importantly doesn&#8217;t care. The possibility exists for 2 or more to be shooting. The faster the event is brought to closure the better.
> 
> ...




I havent looked at it in depth, but it seems that the 5.56 is popular with many people for home defense because it penetrates less drywall, studs and other normal interior building material than most pistol rounds and shotguns, even shooting birdshot. 



brownegg said:


> Yep, the FBI will go back to the 9 just long enough to find that they are outgunned with 40's and 45's shooting back....then they will go back to the 40's again....
> 
> brownegg


 Humor!!! Ar-ar. Oh wait, serious?  The idea of "youre only outgunned if you miss" isnt far off. There isnt that much difference in terminal effect between quality defensive pistol rounds. There isnt much difference in the guns either, as far as giving one any real definitive advantage over the others, its all a balance. Many seem to feel the right balance point is in high grade 9 loads and the relative ease with which most can shoot them well, even burley, manly dudes that arent afraid of 45's and other larger calibers.

I'm baffled by the "outgunned" idea, meaning, because somebody else has something that may be slightly better in some way because of the caliber of a handgun, anyone else is automatically going to simply lose somehow. Not computing. 





Drizler said:


> Having worked in Federal LE all my life *I don't give a lot of credit to their judgement in firearms related things. Most of the guys who make these decisions aren't anywhere near expert in anything with the exception of career climbing. * That's the unfortunate truth of it:shrug:. Add to it political considerations, where it's made and of course cost and lobbying and you might as well use a dart board to pick a gun:icecream:. The only really good one I was ever carried was the Glock 23 I bought myself and have today.


 Yes, there are politicos in the system that make decisions. The people that do the wound ballistics research arent in that category though. It looks like they are listening to the guys doing the wound ballistics and firearms training work. That old ugly bugaboo "budget" also rears its head. When ammo costs, training time and costs, and gun longevity factor in, it makes sense.



Chuck R. said:


> The FBI article is a little dated, but if you focus on the "how" incapacitation works, is still pretty relevant as the human body hasn&#8217;t changed much since 1989 (maybe a little fatter, requiring more penetration).
> 
> 
> I think the important thing is to find a balance between your weapon, cartridge, and capability to shoot it well under stress. Which is probably the &#8220;why&#8221; behind the FBI and a lot of law enforcement agencies are moving back to 9mm. Although the FBI states they&#8217;ve found some 9mm loads more effective than .40 loads, I think it&#8217;s more that the &#8220;sum&#8221; of the 9mm, extra capacity, training cost, ability to shoot well under stress, is greater than the &#8220;sum&#8221; of the .40.
> ...


 Agree for the most part. They mentioned the old relative incapacitation index, and "street proven studies of stopping power" (Marshals work thats generally considered a work of fiction now by people that seriously study wound ballistics). Those ideas are definitely dated, and Fackler knew it.

The human body hasnt changed since 1989, but the study of wound ballistics has advanced somewhat, as have the loads resulting from that ongoing study. It was a good start, and I'm glad they have done the work. Theres quite a lot of good information on the net about wound ballistics, much of it done recently by Dr Gary K Roberts.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Malamute said:


> I havent looked at it in depth, but it seems that the 5.56 is popular with many people for home defense because it penetrates less drywall, studs and other normal interior building material than most pistol rounds and shotguns, even shooting birdshot.
> 
> Many seem to feel the right balance point is in high grade 9 loads and the relative ease with which most can shoot them well, even burley, manly dudes that arent afraid of 45's and other larger calibers.
> 
> It was a good start, and I'm glad they have done the work. Theres quite a lot of good information on the net about wound ballistics, much of it done recently by Dr Gary K Roberts.


The AR15.com ammo project I posted is by Dr. Roberts, excellent info on AR15 ammo selection for SD. I'm a big fan of the AR15/.223 for HD. 

There was a time when I was one of those guys stating chit like "Self defense begins with a .4". I had always been a .45 1911 guy (still own 3), carried one for years, competed in both IPSC and IDPA with one, carried a picture of Jeff Cooper in my wallet, turned my nose up at plastic guns, scoffed at ineffective 9mm carriers, etc. etc. etc.

Then I became "educated" and opened my mind........took a few combat pistol classes, started reading terminal ballistic data. Stopped looking at a handgun as an extension of my ego, and started looking at it as a tool. I'm an SO for our local club IDPA matches, so I get to see many new shooters step up to the line with a pistol in a caliber that they haven't shot enough to be proficient with. Usually it's a .40 or a .45, that they can't afford to practice with, and a good percentage of the time they're quoting the same caliber war chit that I used to. 

Now it's what can I carry that's; reliable, effective, and I can hit well with as fast as possible under stress with both strong and weak hands.

Chuck


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the data I had seen on the 223 was that if you target is the other side of a drywall wall 2 sheets 1/2 inch 3.5 inches apart that the bullet would still be effective against that target but if a by-standard was behind a second wall 10 feet after the first one , that what passed through the second wall would be unlikely to generate a fatal wound.

the 223 ammo destined to limit pass through works by fragmenting , something bullets under 2000fps don't do with enough energy to also still be effective at reaching the depth of penetration needed to give a high probability of stop and that it is an elastic function of tissue that when separated at a higher speed it ruptures differently


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