# Yet another sign of how far society can fall in just 40 years



## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

While reading the area newspapers , two had articles describing how the school systems in the large metro city I worked in and the small city just 3200 population above town status are both starting school /local business programs to provide high school students opportunity to take classes and participate in school sponsored clubs and get out of school early to work in local in local plants and retail, service, hospitality industries as if it is a new idea.

In 1977 I joined the DECA club and took a retail sales class so that I could qualify for a school free period / after school job for credit at our area Radio Shack store and when the owner saw my technical aptitude, he spoke to my father about steering more towards the vocational side than the sales and management side and as I transitioned my direction I join VICA instead of DECA in 78 and still got to leave school 90 minutes early to go to my 20 to 25 hour a week job at the Shack.

DECA started in the mid 1940s and VICA for the vocationally aimed students in the 1960s as school systems began investing in area vocational centers for students not yet cut out for business sales / management and more suited to 2 year technical college, at least while in high school.

While I was in the programs, out of the 600 or so eligible students in our sophomore, junior and senior classes, each year 120 to 170 students participated and we parked in the early leave school parking lot to head to our work study part time jobs at the participating stores and plants in our area.

The small city barely out of town status that I grew up in still has the industrial park built in the early 1970s and a newer ghost town one. 

The oldest is now only about 30% occupied down from it's high occupancy of 85% or in the mid 1990s and the smaller one they paved and ran utilities to in the early to mid 2000s is still a weed grown ghost town with no business campuses and many of the local "main street retail businesses" that participated in the work study programs and clubs have shuttered during the last 25 years.

I know the VICA club based program continued as VICA for a decade or two after I graduated high school and is now rebranded but still there with DECA, but they don't have the participation they had when we first learned that getting only a high school diploma without following it with a 4 year degree or 2 year technical diploma was needed to survive , advance in one's field of choice and retain businesses.

The school systems trying to sell the repackaged programs of the late 20th century shows me how society has declined over recent years. The question to answer however is what factors contributed the most to that decline.

I think one major factor is in the 1970s / 1980s more students were either interested or steered by parents and school counselors to consider careers or jobs that could support them and we learned to love or at least comfortably tolerate our career path until we taught ourselves to love it as we realized that career path had indeed fulfilled many of our dreams while providing for our needs.

Now students are told to pursue their "dream employment" from when they first start school even if their dream job has less potential of supporting them than selling front doors as a door to door salesman where every time you knock on a door, you know you probably wont be making a sale at that house.

Your thoughts?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

My thoughts are they should bring the back with a vengeance. I was in VICA building trades. Even got a scholarship to A&M. It would not have happened without VICA. Knew a guy that took auto mechanics through VICA. Now he builds balanced engines for NASCAR. Did I mention he has his own jet too? 

Now with the STEM making a comeback they will have to bring it or something similar back. I think a lot of them went by the way side because of liability reasons. Our class built a house from start to finish minus MEP's. There were many kids from drug addled parents in that class that took it as a way to "fly" to the next grade. With the exception of one that was killed in a drive by shooting they are all productive people and raised great kids. I still keep up with them. Breakfast Club 2.0.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> My thoughts are they should bring the back with a vengeance. I was in VICA building trades. Even got a scholarship to A&M. It would not have happened without VICA. Knew a guy that took auto mechanics through VICA. Now he builds balanced engines for NASCAR. Did I mention he has his own jet too?
> 
> Now with the STEM making a comeback they will have to bring it or something similar back. I think a lot of them went by the way side because of liability reasons. Our class built a house from start to finish minus MEP's. There were many kids from drug addled parents in that class that took it as a way to "fly" to the next grade. With the exception of one that was killed in a drive by shooting they are all productive people and raised great kids. I still keep up with them. Breakfast Club 2.0.


New York has BOCES which is vocational training, and is very popular. It's a great program. https://www.boces.org/


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Like MR said, "with a vengeance".


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

It didn't help when the leaders of the country started telling everyone, 'Those jobs are gone and never coming back" as they sold us down the river. 
It isn't only one group at fault, it was a concerted effort over many years that destroyed a lot of middle class, good jobs.
I think mine was the last generation that were taught building and fixing things is honest and reputable work.
Then things went downhill, as you say for the last 30-40 years.
It's good that it's starting to turn back to what works again and I hope it continues.
Not everyone is going to be a CEO or get a job in a video game think tank, lol.
Meanwhile, the trades I learned are still putting food on the table and the lack of competition has actually made my wages rise in the last few years.
My dad taught me to have a trade and a profession.
When the times are good, you'll make money.
When times get tough, you'll still eat.


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## miggyb (May 2, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> It didn't help when the leaders of the country started telling everyone, 'Those jobs are gone and never coming back" as they sold us down the river.


 In New England that was easy to believe, we had the empty shells of mills, that supported us for decades. I lived in Woonsocket, RI, a small city that ran on textiles. In our case our work went South, before heading overseas. "Jobs never coming back" was a reality and towns like Woonsocket are gradually fading away. I wholly support the return and emphasis on the "Industrial Arts", my youngest grand daughter starts high school at a regional Ag school this coming year. Freshman year will be a sampler of what is offered, sophomore year she will pick her main course of study. Perfect for her! Perfect for a young girl who really lacks any interest in "book learning" and has yet to decide on Diesel Mechanic or Vet Tech.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Sometimes all you can do is stare in wonder at the ignorance around you.

I have got to get my magic wand repaired.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Came across this: 
https://money.cnn.com/2018/07/10/news/companies/ibm-tech-schools/index.html

geo


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

I worked on houses and did better in hard times than I did in good times. In good times, people might buy a new house. In hard times, they'd want me to fix up the old house. Couple thousand dollars spent in a kitchen does a whole lot of improving.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

geo in mi said:


> Came across this:
> https://money.cnn.com/2018/07/10/news/companies/ibm-tech-schools/index.html
> 
> geo


I read over the other day about how IBM days that in ten years almost 50% of their employees would not have a four year degree. They would rather intern then. It would appear what they started seven years ago is working.


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## flewism (Apr 2, 2007)

Shrek said:


> Now students are told to pursue their "dream employment" from when they first start school even if their dream job has less potential of supporting them than selling front doors as a door to door salesman where every time you knock on a door, you know you probably wont be making a sale at that house.
> 
> Your thoughts?


My thoughts are it is just sad with the money being spent on college a lot of times it is ridicules on the return.

I met such a young man just last week, as we were vacationing in the Hocking hills area of OH. He was a Segway tour guide at a Zip line course. So we did the Segway tour and this young man late 20's or early 30's was the guide and new a lot of stuff about the local birds, insects, plants and trees. Well my wife made friends with him and asked how he learned all this stuff and he started whipping off all the college degrees he had and it was like 3 or 4 in wildlife management, tourism and such. That is what I thought to myself is that all that education and you are a environmental tour guide for the Segway tours at a Zip line part.

When the tour was over and he was good, he asked us to fill out these satisfaction rating cards because the better he is rated by the customers the more work hours he gets, my thought that is sad. 


And me and the wife did do the Zip line also, first time ever


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

He made such a lasting impression on you that you're talking about it a week later. Do you suppose you made that much of an impression on him? His job was to make your vacation more enjoyable and memorable. Sounds like he did just that!


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## flewism (Apr 2, 2007)

He did just that but in my opinion he was way over qualified for that job just based on the years he spent in school.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

flewism said:


> He did just that but in my opinion he was way over qualified for that job just based on the years he spent in school.


Not w very good ROI.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Suppose he didn't have that education. He'd really been a poor guide then. 

One of my kids took a major in a field that's considered one of the most useless fields ever. There was nothing I could do or say except encourage her. So I did.


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## flewism (Apr 2, 2007)

mreynolds said:


> Not w very good ROI.


Right this person should be working for the DNR or a researcher exploring remote corners of the earth. After living the life paying for our two getting their 4 year degrees without any sizable debt I have an idea of what a racket college can be. I also have a few friends with adult children with degrees that they are not employed in.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

The values and needs of those managing, working in, and using various business, and other aspects of our lives nowadays are so far apart and different that things are not likely to get much better.


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

I think there's a key word here and that word is "WORK". Im finding it difficult to find people under 30 years old that have a solid work ethic. I am constantly looking for laborers that are worth a hoot and they all expect to be paid $20 per hour or more whether they arw or arent. Often I will hire a guy, work him for 1 day and see that he has no skills, no common sense, no experience. Those things are fixable. But the majority have no drive, no pride, no stamina, no desire to learn, no respect, and are plain old lazy. I feel like this starts at home. My parents taught me.how to work and how to take pride in a job well done..not for the praise of others but to be able to look yourself in the mirror and know you did your best and see the fruit of your labor. I've done the same with my kids. In fact last week I had Hunter, my 10 year old, helping me strip forms on a residential job and a lady stopped her car and got out to tell me what a horrible mom I was for making my kid work out in the heat and she should report me to cps for child endangerment and there's labor laws and on and on. 

My 2 older kids would bring they're friends over and these kids had no clue what work was. They'd come over and stay the whole weekend and never once did I get a phone call or see anyone at my door to check and make sure their kids were safe. They just didn't want to be bothered and we're happy the kids were out of their hair I guess. If you stayed at my house you followed the rules and you were expected to pitch in and do your part. The best thing about it was these kids were drawn to it...they wanted it. They wanted the attention and wanted to learn and just wanted someone to tell them they did a good job. They felt empowered and encouraged and it was amazing to see how some good old get your hands dirty kind of work affected their lives.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Education is not just about earning money but it is an end in itself. The Zip Line Tour Guide is young, very well educated and may go on to use his degrees in more serious work or he may be truly happy in the outdoor tourism based life he leads or even do something completely different. 

We know many people who have studied one thing (or two) and yet now work in very different fields. Our family doctor was a geologist before he went back to study medicine. A friend was a submariner but now runs an off the grid coffee shop. My husband's two assistants were a cabinet maker and welder respectively who had degrees but preferred to work in those fields before deciding to change course and go after employment based on their degrees. Another friend is a Park Guide in the Tombstone Mountains. She loves it and although it does use some of her education it is also completely different. Education, training, skills all give you choices. What you decide to do with your life or just serendipitously end up doing may be something you never expected to do.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I am LOVING the increased opportunities that I see for women right now. At the same time, the school systems seem to be faltering badly.

I think that as some progress in some areas get hammered out, whatever is NOT in the spot light will get worse.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

Terri said:


> I am LOVING the increased opportunities that I see for women right now. At the same time, the school systems seem to be faltering badly.
> 
> I think that as some progress in some areas get hammered out, whatever is NOT in the spot light will get worse.


People has to be on the ball to keep the educational dollars the same with the new president and company. Some programs in some state have been cut. My little girl teachers at Cal. state Long beach. They were worry about the coming year. They did get together with the State of Ca. to increase some programs and provide for all the other programs for the coming year.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> I think there's a key word here and that word is "WORK". Im finding it difficult to find people under 30 years old that have a solid work ethic. I am constantly looking for laborers that are worth a hoot and they all expect to be paid $20 per hour or more whether they arw or arent. Often I will hire a guy, work him for 1 day and see that he has no skills, no common sense, no experience. Those things are fixable. But the majority have no drive, no pride, no stamina, no desire to learn, no respect, and are plain old lazy. I feel like this starts at home. My parents taught me.how to work and how to take pride in a job well done..not for the praise of others but to be able to look yourself in the mirror and know you did your best and see the fruit of your labor. I've done the same with my kids. In fact last week I had Hunter, my 10 year old, helping me strip forms on a residential job and a lady stopped her car and got out to tell me what a horrible mom I was for making my kid work out in the heat and she should report me to cps for child endangerment and there's labor laws and on and on.
> 
> My 2 older kids would bring they're friends over and these kids had no clue what work was. They'd come over and stay the whole weekend and never once did I get a phone call or see anyone at my door to check and make sure their kids were safe. They just didn't want to be bothered and we're happy the kids were out of their hair I guess. If you stayed at my house you followed the rules and you were expected to pitch in and do your part. The best thing about it was these kids were drawn to it...they wanted it. They wanted the attention and wanted to learn and just wanted someone to tell them they did a good job. They felt empowered and encouraged and it was amazing to see how some good old get your hands dirty kind of work affected their lives.


Many parents have failed their kids. I wonder what kind of parents these kids will be.

That lady that scolded you is a perfect example of why we have the problem.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

gerold said:


> People has to be on the ball to keep the educational dollars the same with the new president and company. Some programs in some state have been cut. My little girl teachers at Cal. state Long beach. They were worry about the coming year. They did get together with the State of Ca. to increase some programs and provide for all the other programs for the coming year.


I have family on the West coast, and the schools there are making the math courses electives. Scary stuff!


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Terri said:


> I have family on the West coast, and the schools there are making the math courses electives. Scary stuff!


Got a link ?


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

oneraddad said:


> Got a link ?


Nope. This is what my relatives who have kids in the various school systems are telling me.

And, I have no idea what percentage of schools are dropping math as a requirement, but I have family all over the west coast and I have heard from more than one parent in more than one area that this is happening in their kid's school


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

They ain't all bad...

PELHAM, Ala. — Car trouble didn’t stop Walter Carr from getting to his first day of work with a moving company Sunday, even if he did have to walk nearly 20 miles in the dark.

“The grit and heart Walter showed defines Bellhops’ culture precisely … We set a high bar on service and he just raised it,” he wrote in a Sunday tweet. A day later, Marklin thanked Carr by handing over the keys to his 2014 Ford Escape, leaving Carr “trying to hold back the tears,” per al.com


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

Terri said:


> Nope. This is what my relatives who have kids in the various school systems are telling me.
> 
> And, I have no idea what percentage of schools are dropping math as a requirement, but I have family all over the west coast and I have heard from more than one parent in more than one area that this is happening in their kid's school


This has been going on for about 4 years maybe longer. About 4-5 states have been doing this. Some have gone back to the regular way of teaching math. I think it can start in 8th grade with beginning algebra and geometry. They combined algebra,geometry, and trig course together at the college level. I forget what they call it. It is a higher level of math then just regulate math courses. With all the computer learning etc. a higher level of math is possible they say. If you go to college you may get some of this what they call upgraded math. Some schools in Ca. are using it. A few states have discontinued it and gone back to regular math at the college level. If a child is in the upper 20% in school it may help be as far as higher education is concerned. I prefer the old fashion way. How many student go on to get PHD's. I just don't think kids should be rushed into to much higher education at a younger age. In Europe this type of education has been used for some time.
(Integrated sequence) Combining Fractions, Geometry, and trig. etc.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

HDRider said:


> They ain't all bad...
> 
> PELHAM, Ala. — Car trouble didn’t stop Walter Carr from getting to his first day of work with a moving company Sunday, even if he did have to walk nearly 20 miles in the dark.
> 
> “The grit and heart Walter showed defines Bellhops’ culture precisely … We set a high bar on service and he just raised it,” he wrote in a Sunday tweet. A day later, Marklin thanked Carr by handing over the keys to his 2014 Ford Escape, leaving Carr “trying to hold back the tears,” per al.com


They had that young man who walked the 20 miles at night between Hoover and Pelham to load moving vans at 8 AM on both the national and local news.

I predict two things. the first is that he becomes a rising star within his employer's company showing that sort of work ethic on his first day on the job after being hired and the second thing I predict is when that guy has his own kids and if they show a weak work ethic and roll their eyes at his "when I was your age I walked 20 miles one way to work" lecture, he will have newspaper clippings and a video to back up his lecture to them as visual aids.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Terri said:


> Nope. This is what my relatives who have kids in the various school systems are telling me.
> 
> And, I have no idea what percentage of schools are dropping math as a requirement, but I have family all over the west coast and I have heard from more than one parent in more than one area that this is happening in their kid's school


I can't find a single indication that school districts are dropping math as a requirement. There was a change last year (2017) to remove intermediate algebra as a pre-req for some non STEM students in the fall of 2018: "A new policy from the California State University system will soon allow some students to take math classes with pre-requisites other than intermediate algebra to satisfy the math requirements they need for graduation.

The new rules go into effect starting in the fall of 2018 and will apply to both CSU freshmen and community college students transferring into the 23-university system. The changes will permit students who are not pursuing math or science majors to take non-algebra-based math courses to meet “general education” requirements, such as statistics, personal finance or even game theory and computer science.

Mastery of intermediate algebra is currently a pre-requisite to take these courses."

https://edsource.org/2017/cal-state...-requirement-allows-other-math-courses/585595


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

At Hunters school they teach common core math. Its very confusing and difficult for me to help him with math homework. We can both work a problem and get the same answer but he has many more steps to get there. I started watching instructional videos for common core math to try and help. It seems to be based more on estimation as opposed to memorization. I haven't found a good reason why this method is more beneficial.

The expectation of what kids are learning has change dramatically too. In AZ kids going into kindergarten are expected to know everything that I was taught IN kindergarten. And that trend carries through each grade. Hunter was in 4th grade last year and he was learning things I wasn't even exposed to until 7th and 8th grade. And then we have the standardized testing. They put so much pressure on kids about these tests and it's sadly mostly due to funding. The better the test scores the better rating the school gets. The better the rating the better the funding.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> At Hunters school they teach common core math. Its very confusing and difficult for me to help him with math homework. We can both work a problem and get the same answer but he has many more steps to get there. I started watching instructional videos for common core math to try and help. It seems to be based more on estimation as opposed to memorization. I haven't found a good reason why this method is more beneficial.
> 
> The expectation of what kids are learning has change dramatically too. In AZ kids going into kindergarten are expected to know everything that I was taught IN kindergarten. And that trend carries through each grade. Hunter was in 4th grade last year and he was learning things I wasn't even exposed to until 7th and 8th grade. And then we have the standardized testing. They put so much pressure on kids about these tests and it's sadly mostly due to funding. The better the test scores the better rating the school gets. The better the rating the better the funding.


The same thing happened when I was a kid, with "new math". My mother would try to help me, and the answers would be the same, but the work to get there would be dramatically different. 

I've had several teacher friends/acquaintances say that in the long run common core math method will be much easier to learn, but it will be more difficult for anyone taught another way.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> At Hunters school they teach common core math. Its very confusing and difficult for me to help him with math homework. We can both work a problem and get the same answer but he has many more steps to get there. I started watching instructional videos for common core math to try and help. It seems to be based more on estimation as opposed to memorization. I haven't found a good reason why this method is more beneficial.
> 
> The expectation of what kids are learning has change dramatically too. In AZ kids going into kindergarten are expected to know everything that I was taught IN kindergarten. And that trend carries through each grade. Hunter was in 4th grade last year and he was learning things I wasn't even exposed to until 7th and 8th grade. And then we have the standardized testing. They put so much pressure on kids about these tests and it's sadly mostly due to funding. The better the test scores the better rating the school gets. The better the rating the better the funding.


Let me clear up some misconceptions about your first paragraph. There is no such thing as “common core math”. Or any subject for that matter. Common core is only a list of curriculum standards to be mastered. There is a common misconception out there that common core is a methodology. It is not. The focus on the standards is understanding the “why” of a concept and to be able to apply that knowledge in real world applications. The change in methods of solving math problems is an attempt to get at the underlying “why” of a topic. 

You are completely right about the testing though. There is far, far too much testing. And, as a teacher, it tells me nothing about a student that I don’t already know.


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

SLFarmMI said:


> Let me clear up some misconceptions about your first paragraph. There is no such thing as “common core math”. Or any subject for that matter. Common core is only a list of curriculum standards to be mastered. There is a common misconception out there that common core is a methodology. It is not. The focus on the standards is understanding the “why” of a concept and to be able to apply that knowledge in real world applications. The change in methods of solving math problems is an attempt to get at the underlying “why” of a topic.
> 
> You are completely right about the testing though. There is far, far too much testing. And, as a teacher, it tells me nothing about a student that I don’t already know.


Hunters teachers have referred to it as common core math so that's how I have referred to it as well. Whether it's a methodology or a set of standards is really not the issue for me. Helping my son with his math homework is. So, in trying to understand the process he's learning I've seen what you're saying about understanding the why. But trying to understand why is resulting in several more steps in getting the answer. Why is the "why" so important? 12 x 10 = 120 because it just does. Here are some examples:


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

This is nothing new, in the 80's when my kids were learning math it was different than the way I learned it. As long as the answer is the same who cares how you get there.


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

oneraddad said:


> This is nothing new, in the 80's when my kids were learning math it was different than the way I learned it. As long as the answer is the same who cares how you get there.


I think it's because it's not just about the answer but training a child's brain how to analyze, reason, and rationalize things. These learning concepts and problem solving skills play out across the whole child, and don't pertain to just a math problem.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> Hunters teachers have referred to it as common core math so that's how I have referred to it as well. Whether it's a methodology or a set of standards is really not the issue for me. Helping my son with his math homework is. So, in trying to understand the process he's learning I've seen what you're saying about understanding the why. But trying to understand why is resulting in several more steps in getting the answer. Why is the "why" so important? 12 x 10 = 120 because it just does. Here are some examples:


The why of it helps the student to understand the basic foundations of math. Knowing and understanding these foundations, because math builds upon itself, helps the student to understand and apply higher level concepts. In your example, 12 x 10=120 not because it just does but because, conceptually, you are making sets of equal groups and then adding those sets to obtain a total. Conceptually, that problem is ten groups of ten added to ten groups of two and it is important that students understand that.

The methods presented in your screenshots are just ways to help students visualize the concept. I have personally seen students who couldn’t get mult-digit multiplication using the traditional method who just took off when presented with the lattice or array method. And, bottom line, that’s the only important thing in my opinion-does the student understand the concept, can he/she get the right answer and can he/she apply the concept. For multiplication, I teach all three methods and let the kids choose what they want to use.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

flewism said:


> My thoughts are it is just sad with the money being spent on college a lot of times it is ridicules on the return.
> 
> I met such a young man just last week, as we were vacationing in the Hocking hills area of OH. He was a Segway tour guide at a Zip line course. So we did the Segway tour and this young man late 20's or early 30's was the guide and new a lot of stuff about the local birds, insects, plants and trees. Well my wife made friends with him and asked how he learned all this stuff and he started whipping off all the college degrees he had and it was like 3 or 4 in wildlife management, tourism and such. That is what I thought to myself is that all that education and you are a environmental tour guide for the Segway tours at a Zip line part.
> 
> ...


I had a coworker wants whose husband had many advanced degrees in similar fields and even a PhD I believe. When they came to Alaska he couldn’t find any jobs that he could get into in his field. 
Eventually desperate for cash he took a job as a parking lot attendant. He certainly thought he had hit bottom when the week before Christmas he was fired. 
However due to having been laid off before Christmas he qualified for a special program where the state hired people for menial labor. It went to work for the department of natural resources washing picnic tables cleaning toilets etc. at a campground. 
After just a few months he was reading the job openings on the bulletin board and there was A lead biologist position open. He mentioned to his supervisor that he would love to have that job but since it was only open two employees of the DNR he couldn’t even apply for it. 
To which his supervisor pointed out well who do you think you’re working for? He applied and got the job. 
Friday one week he was cleaning toilets Monday of the next he was his bosses bosses supervisor. 
What with all the ingrained favoritism of many jobs it’s not really who you know or what you know its how you get there. 

For him to get the job he had come to Alaska seeking he had to be fired from A car park lot. 

Perhaps your friend needs to be informed of how the government tries to hire from within so that he can take any menial job in the government that he can get.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

We are given a certain number of years to live. To waste any of those years on high-priced schooling that will add nothing to your productivity is a crime against nature. Sending kids out into the world with college debt, no work experience and no idea of what making a living looks like is shameful. 

I am for two years of national service to provide training in self-motivation, work ethic and responsibility. Kids from that program would be better prepared to decide what and if they wanted further study. 

A real problem is that the eggheads in this country disparage those who work with their hands, they promote studies with little or no practical application---how many "Human Geography" majors do we need? Gender Studies? We are the deplorables, the uneducated idiots who reject their teaching and have to rely on our common sense. To paraphrase Reagan, the problem with eggheads is not that they know so much, but that they know so much that is not so.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> I can't find a single indication that school districts are dropping math as a requirement. There was a change last year (2017) to remove intermediate algebra as a pre-req for some non STEM students in the fall of 2018: "A new policy from the California State University system will soon allow some students to take math classes with pre-requisites other than intermediate algebra to satisfy the math requirements they need for graduation.
> 
> The new rules go into effect starting in the fall of 2018 and will apply to both CSU freshmen and community college students transferring into the 23-university system. The changes will permit students who are not pursuing math or science majors to take non-algebra-based math courses to meet “general education” requirements, such as statistics, personal finance or even game theory and computer science.
> 
> ...


I am glad. It sounds like they have changed their minds about dropping math as a required subject.

The account from my relatives are of what their kid's schools DID do over the past several years. And, I see that the new requirements for math take effect THIS year.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> There is far, far too much testing. And, as a teacher, *it tells me nothing* about a student that I don’t already know.


It's not supposed to tell you anything.
It's to tell others how well both students and teachers are doing.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Terri said:


> I am glad. It sounds like they have changed their minds about dropping math as a required subject.
> 
> The account from my relatives are of what their kid's schools DID do over the past several years. And, I see that the new requirements for math take effect THIS year.


This only effects non-stem students at California Community Colleges, and only intermediate algebra. Here's another link: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-california-community-colleges-algebra-20170717-story.html


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Shrek said:


> They had that young man who walked the 20 miles at night between Hoover and Pelham to load moving vans at 8 AM on both the national and local news.
> 
> I predict two things. the first is that he becomes a rising star within his employer's company showing that sort of work ethic on his first day on the job after being hired and the second thing I predict is when that guy has his own kids and if they show a weak work ethic and roll their eyes at his "when I was your age I walked 20 miles one way to work" lecture, he will have newspaper clippings and a video to back up his lecture to them as visual aids.



I also predict that he will not be popular amongst the other employees who probably have just as great a work ethic and have been with the company for perhaps years but never got a car as a gift from the boss. I am sure that all of them see this car gift for what it is - a public relations exercise - but still not clever on the part of the boss. If the young man's car broke down as was reported why not just advance him his salary to fix it. Not as newsworthy. This hunger for publicity and social media recognition is also a sign of how things have changed.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

oneraddad said:


> Got a link ?


If it's like Canadian schools, elective may not be as elective as people think. Our students must take math courses but they have choices on what type of math they take. The options would be what I'd consider heavy duty math (algebra, calculus, advanced geometry, etc) or what some consider to be more practical math (basis formulas, geometry etc).

The same is done with our sciences as well.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> This only effects non-stem students at California Community Colleges, and only intermediate algebra. Here's another link: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-california-community-colleges-algebra-20170717-story.html


Actually, the kids were in jr high


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> I think there's a key word here and that word is "WORK". Im finding it difficult to find people under 30 years old that have a solid work ethic. I am constantly looking for laborers that are worth a hoot and they all expect to be paid $20 per hour or more whether they arw or arent. Often I will hire a guy, work him for 1 day and see that he has no skills, no common sense, no experience. Those things are fixable. But the majority have no drive, no pride, no stamina, no desire to learn, no respect, and are plain old lazy. I feel like this starts at home. My parents taught me.how to work and how to take pride in a job well done..not for the praise of others but to be able to look yourself in the mirror and know you did your best and see the fruit of your labor. I've done the same with my kids. In fact last week I had Hunter, my 10 year old, helping me strip forms on a residential job and a lady stopped her car and got out to tell me what a horrible mom I was for making my kid work out in the heat and she should report me to cps for child endangerment and there's labor laws and on and on.
> 
> My 2 older kids would bring they're friends over and these kids had no clue what work was. They'd come over and stay the whole weekend and never once did I get a phone call or see anyone at my door to check and make sure their kids were safe. They just didn't want to be bothered and we're happy the kids were out of their hair I guess. If you stayed at my house you followed the rules and you were expected to pitch in and do your part. The best thing about it was these kids were drawn to it...they wanted it. They wanted the attention and wanted to learn and just wanted someone to tell them they did a good job. They felt empowered and encouraged and it was amazing to see how some good old get your hands dirty kind of work affected their lives.


Unfortunately I see that with my 19 year old son. If you tell him what to do and watch , he actually is a great worker. But left a lone, he will look at that pile of wood that needs stacking all day, even complain it is blocking parking his car in the carport.

Daughter who is 23 totally different. Looks for work to do.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Terri said:


> I have family on the West coast, and the schools there are making the math courses electives. Scary stuff!


Math-elective? Now that's nuts. I know we all sat in math class and wondered why we need to know this stuff, but actually you do.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Oxankle said:


> We are given a certain number of years to live. To waste any of those years on high-priced schooling that will add nothing to your productivity is a crime against nature. Sending kids out into the world with college debt, no work experience and no idea of what making a living looks like is shameful.
> 
> I am for two years of national service to provide training in self-motivation, work ethic and responsibility. Kids from that program would be better prepared to decide what and if they wanted further study.
> 
> A real problem is that the eggheads in this country disparage those who work with their hands, they promote studies with little or no practical application---how many "Human Geography" majors do we need? Gender Studies? We are the deplorables, the uneducated idiots who reject their teaching and have to rely on our common sense. To paraphrase Reagan, the problem with eggheads is not that they know so much, but that they know so much that is not so.



I kind of like my doctor to have that high priced schooling


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

wr said:


> If it's like Canadian schools, elective may not be as elective as people think. Our students must take math courses but they have choices on what type of math they take. The options would be what I'd consider heavy duty math (algebra, calculus, advanced geometry, etc) or what some consider to be more practical math (basis formulas, geometry etc).
> 
> The same is done with our sciences as well.


That makes more sense. Inn Grade 13 in high school, I took statistics but not algebra.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

keenataz said:


> *Inn Grade 13* in high school, I took statistics but not algebra.


That must be some of that "new math".


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's not supposed to tell you anything.
> It's to tell others how well both students and teachers are doing.


It doesn’t do that either.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> It doesn’t do that either.


Why do they do it?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> It doesn’t do that either.


Sure it does.
That's the "why" of testing, it's "common core".


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Why do they do it?


It funnels a lot of money to the test developers. It gives the politicians something they can point to when they pick winners and losers under the guise of “accountability”. It provides results in pretty charts and graphs. It provides the illusion that you can look at the results and make a determination about the quality of instruction. 

It does not inform instructional practice. It does not determine progress. It does not provide one iota of information about teacher quality.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> It funnels a lot of money to the test developers. It gives the politicians something they can point to when they pick winners and losers under the guise of “accountability”. It provides results in pretty charts and graphs. It provides the illusion that you can look at the results and make a determination about the quality of instruction.
> 
> It does not inform instructional practice. It does not determine progress. It does not provide one iota of information about teacher quality.


Makes one long for the day of the one room school house. It is hard to have accountability when a school district has multi hundred thousand students.

School districts are way too big, and not very accountable.

The top 100 school district in the US range from 40,000 to almost a million students. That is insane.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Makes one long for the day of the one room school house. It is hard to have accountability when a school district has multi hundred thousand students.
> 
> School districts are way too big, and not very accountable.
> 
> The top 100 school district in the US range from 40,000 to almost a million students. That is insane.


I don’t disagree with you on the size issue. While the district I work for is relatively small, the individual schools are, in my opinion, too large (@550 students). Class sizes are also too large. Smaller class sizes, according to the research, are much better in terms of student learning. Unfortunately, no one wants to pay for the staff and facilities that would be needed to make that happen.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> I don’t disagree with you on the size issue. While the district I work for is relatively small, the individual schools are, in my opinion, too large (@550 students). Class sizes are also too large. Smaller class sizes, according to the research, are much better in terms of student learning. Unfortunately, no one wants to pay for the staff and facilities that would be needed to make that happen.


Another way to look at it is that the teachers do not want to work for the amount the budget allows with smaller classes. To keep the pay up in the range the teachers will work for requires lots of kids per classroom. It’s just basic math.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

The bigger the teaching staff, the bigger the admin staff. The bigger the admin staff, the bigger the admin salaries.

Giant sport stadiums. New buildings. Long bus routes, lots of buses with drivers. New books, new computers. Bigger, getting bigger still.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

oneraddad said:


> This is nothing new, in the 80's when my kids were learning math it was different than the way I learned it. As long as the answer is the same who cares how you get there.


Apparently the teacher cares a lot, when helping our kids in the 80's-90's the work mattered as much maybe more than the answer.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

coolrunnin said:


> Apparently the teacher cares a lot, when helping our kids in the 80's-90's the work mattered as much maybe more than the answer.


Depends on the teacher. I personally don’t give a rip what method a student uses (other than cheating off another) but I do require him or her to show the work so I can follow their thinking and clear up any misconceptions. Most teachers I know do the same.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

SLFarmMI said:


> Depends on the teacher. I personally don’t give a rip what method a student uses (other than cheating off another) but I do require him or her to show the work so I can follow their thinking and clear up any misconceptions. Most teachers I know do the same.


That wasn't my experience at the time.


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

SLFarmMI said:


> The why of it helps the student to understand the basic foundations of math. Knowing and understanding these foundations, because math builds upon itself, helps the student to understand and apply higher level concepts. In your example, 12 x 10=120 not because it just does but because, conceptually, you are making sets of equal groups and then adding those sets to obtain a total. Conceptually, that problem is ten groups of ten added to ten groups of two and it is important that students understand that.
> 
> The methods presented in your screenshots are just ways to help students visualize the concept. I have personally seen students who couldn’t get mult-digit multiplication using the traditional method who just took off when presented with the lattice or array method. And, bottom line, that’s the only important thing in my opinion-does the student understand the concept, can he/she get the right answer and can he/she apply the concept. For multiplication, I teach all three methods and let the kids choose what they want to use.


In my opinion and based on what I've seen and experienced with my son, the emphasis on working the problem to death is far greater than getting the answer. The other morning I had a flat tire on my truck. I didn't have to spend a bunch of time deciphering the cause or contemplating the method I was going to use to change it. I just changed it. I know thats not an apples to apples comparison but the basics are....there's a problem, so solve the problem. The topic of this thread was regarding the downfall of society. Seems to me that each generation is becoming less about "doing". Besides that we give our kids "participation" trophies because everyone is equal, teach traditionally valued kids that they have to be so accepting of everyones life choices that they have to forego their own moral upbringing, barely hold them accountable for their actions because punishment and abuse are becoming synonymous unless its to an extreme, allow them to question and call out authority instead of teaching them that "because I said so" is reason enough, allow them to choose the methods they are being taught, and the list goes on. We've taken the fundamentals of the golden rule out and replaced it with a whole lot of sugar coated b.s. and then we wonder why society is breaking down. Whitney was right when she sang about the children being our future. And if we don't get our kids lined out in a big hurry I'm worried sick about the next 40 years.


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

keenataz said:


> Unfortunately I see that with my 19 year old son. If you tell him what to do and watch , he actually is a great worker. But left a lone, he will look at that pile of wood that needs stacking all day, even complain it is blocking parking his car in the carport.
> 
> Daughter who is 23 totally different. Looks for work to do.


Why do you think that is? I've come across the same with my daughter and middle son. She's a raging go getter and he's got to be prodded sometimes. Ive often asked myself why since I raised them both by myself basically the same way...same expectations, chores, accountability, beliefs etc. I was probably more protective over my daughter because she's a girl tho. Maybe that's it?


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

HDRider said:


> The bigger the teaching staff, the bigger the admin staff. The bigger the admin staff, the bigger the admin salaries.
> 
> Giant sport stadiums. New buildings. Long bus routes, lots of buses with drivers. New books, new computers. Bigger, getting bigger still.


Its all about the almighty dollar. AZ teachers went on strike right before the end of this last school year. My sons school was closed for 8 days. I understand that they don't get paid what they deserve but they also signed a contract knowing exactly what they were agreeing to at the beginning of the school year. They showed the kids that when you don't get what you want you throw a fit and walk out on your responsibilities. What a great example.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That must be some of that "new math".


The response was very likely not a typo or a math issue. There were a few provinces in Canada that went Grade 13 but I think it's been phased out over the years.

I don't think it was ever an issue in Alberta but places that did, seemed to use it as preparation for post secondary education. 

Since it's been primarily phased out, there seems to be a lot of young people in Alberta that start college or university by taking a 1 year general studies course.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

wr said:


> The response was very likely not a typo or a math issue. There were a few provinces in Canada that went Grade 13 but I think it's been phased out over the years.
> 
> I don't think it was ever an issue in Alberta but places that did, seemed to use it as preparation for post secondary education.
> 
> Since it's been primarily phased out, there seems to be a lot of young people in Alberta that start college or university by taking a 1 year general studies course.


Would that be anything like a Jr. college.

I went to McGill. Enjoyed my years there in Canada. Also worked in Canada for 2 years. Pay was outstanding. Sure enjoyed the Med. care I received in Canada. Much better system then here in the U.S.A.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> The bigger the teaching staff, the bigger the admin staff. The bigger the admin staff, the bigger the admin salaries.
> 
> Giant sport stadiums. New buildings. Long bus routes, lots of buses with drivers. New books, new computers. Bigger, getting bigger still.


Sports stadiums and venues are not tax payer funded. At least in Texas they are not. They have to be self supportive. If a college in Texas has one they paid out of pocket. Not sure about other states.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> Sports stadiums and venues are not tax payer funded. At least in Texas they are not. They have to be self supportive. If a college in Texas has one they paid out of pocket. Not sure about other states.


I looked it up. They are funded by bonds, which the school pays off.

From: https://repositories.lib.utexas.edu...MASTERSREPORT-2014.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

The Report committee for Roy William Varney certifies that this is the approved version of the following report: Texas High School Stadiums Shaped by Public Funding and Opinion

_In most cases, these bonds are *paid back through increased property taxes.* According to Heather Rosas, a spokeswoman for the Texas Bond Review Board, Texas high schools have issued a combined 38 bonds and maintenance tax notes during the last 10 years with the intent to construct stadiums. Stadium tracker TexasBob.com states that 83 high school stadiums have opened since 2008._​
From: https://www.upi.com/Texas-town-open...e-high-school-football-stadium/7081503026585/

The cost of the stadium was originally supposed to be $58 million when Katy voters approved a $748 million bond referendum three years ago, reported the Houston Chronicle. That price estimate was approved by voters who rejected a $69 million price tag for a new stadium the year before. But since construction began, costs ballooned to $72.1 million.

Despite the extra $14 million that taxpayers didn't vote for, but will still end up paying, Katy officials aren't concerned.

"It's something that this community wanted," Katy ISD Superintendent Lance Hindt told KTRK-TV. "I don't think the cost was anything that they really looked into."

With the final $72 million cost, Katy's Legacy Stadium currently holds the title for most expensive high school football stadium in the United States. But that title might not last long because in Texas, high school football is taken seriously -- and serious money is spent on venues.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Some are talking about colleges while others are talking about elementary schools.
Policies and funding will be quite different.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Some are talking about colleges while others are talking about elementary schools.
> Policies and funding will be quite different.


The above is HS


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> The above is HS


Notice I said colleges. They are state funded as in state university. The sports part is not funded by state tax dollars on state universities. Something I just found out a few months ago. 

High schools here are by bond election. Voters vote on it by majority and its paid for by tax dollars and other monies the school receives. The two largest stadiums like Katy and Allen make a profit every year also. There have been times there are more people at an Allen Texas high school game than the NFL Cowboys.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I always did love this link. 

https://www.upi.com/Texas-town-open...e-high-school-football-stadium/7081503026585/

_ A small town in southeast Texas unveiled its brand-new $70 million high school football stadium, the most expensive such venue in the country -- for now.

Legacy Stadium in Katy, which has a population of about 14,000 people, will be able to seat 12,000 spectators
_
This is a prime example of media trying to incite people who dont bother to research the facts. Sounds crazy right? 70 million for 14000 pop? 

_Here is the truth_

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katy_Independent_School_District


Elementary School addition 1927-1951
The Katy Independent School District (KISD) is a public school district based in Katy, Texas, United States with an *enrollment of over 70,000 students*. As of August 2009, the district was rated as "Recognized" by the Texas Education Agency.

Now them 14,000 pop lets assume half are adults? That's 7,000 adults. A couple would make 3500 couples correct? Each couple would need to have 20 kids to have 70,000 students. 

Is this that new fangled common core math? 

70,000 students means each student would pay 1000 dollars each to pay for that stadium. Not as bad as the article writer tries to make you see huh HD?


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

I don't know about Texas but here once they raise property taxes for a bond to for the schools. They never seem to go back down.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Ziptie said:


> I don't know about Texas but here once they raise property taxes for a bond to for the schools. They never seem to go back down.


Here is Texas is county by county. Some are more corrupt than others. My country they usually roll it back but then ask for another one back to back lol.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> I always did love this link.
> 
> https://www.upi.com/Texas-town-open...e-high-school-football-stadium/7081503026585/
> 
> ...


I knew Katy school was huge. I used to live there.

I did miss where you said college. I think a lot of states pay there own way on stadiums via their sports programs.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Perhaps the energy, time, and money used on school sports in the last 40 years could be a one of the signs of our societies issues. Just think what they could have done for the benefit of society and its individuals if used for better preparing a far greater number of kids than what’s involved in sports for a productive life.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Redlands Okie said:


> Perhaps the energy, time, and money used on school sports in the last 40 years could be a one of the signs of our societies issues. Just think what they could have done for the benefit of society and its individuals if used for better preparing a far greater number of kids than what’s involved in sports for a productive life.


That thought is why I brought it up.

We seem to put too much emphasis on sports.

No giant stadium, or competitive HS team makes us winners in the global economy.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

gerold said:


> People has to be on the ball to keep the educational dollars the same with the new president and company. Some programs in some state have been cut. My little girl teachers at Cal. state Long beach. They were worry about the coming year. They did get together with the State of Ca. to increase some programs and provide for all the other programs for the coming year.


Well our last President my Sister had to learn how to fix meals that none of the kids wanted and had to deal with Illegals.

big rockpile


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

big rockpile said:


> Well our last President my Sister had to learn how to fix meals that none of the kids wanted and had to deal with Illegals.
> 
> big rockpile


Obama made her do that?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mreynolds said:


> Obama made her do that?


An Obama did if she works in a school cafeteria, but it was due to MO, not BO.


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