# Garbage scopes in particular on scope package guns



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

had a young man scope himself yesterday at deer rifle sight in. in his forehead blood trickling down 

he will be ok, the scope was mounted fairly far back and then I realized why. in order to see edge to edge with this scope your eye had to be about 1 1/2 inches from the rear lens.

this nameless 3-9x40 scope that the owner said came on this Rem 783 that his dad won at a banquet.

it wouldn't make a good 22lr scope , although at least it wouldn't hurt you there.

unsure if this combo was put together by Remington but suspect it might have been saw a another in 270 a little while later with what looked to have the same scope. 

I am not one of those your scope should cost as much as your gun , people.

my most recent scope purchase was another Vortex crossfireII 2-7x32 it arrived Saturday 129 dollars shipped to my door step.

but your scope should cost more than a box of ammunition for your gun or your likely just wasting the ammo.

I found this video they claim the scope is factory bore sighted the scope and mounts look the same as the one sunday 



needless to say if I was selling a gun , she appears a nice young lady but that is not the group I would use to sell a new rifle.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Show that young man how to hold a rifle, with a proper cheek weld. With the low recoil on a 270, one and half inches should be enough space to avoid being hit by the scope. The spacing on my .375 HH Mag, is two inches, never had a problem.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

when you shoot from a bench or standing it is less of an issue , he got down in prone which automatically puts you farther forward.
inexperienced kid that was clearly taller than the gun was set up for (borrowed gun)that didn't know any better.

his form wasn't great either the sum of bad form and bad scope was blood 

the new 2-7x32 vortex I just set up the closest I can get and have edge to edge clear image is 2 3/8 and the farthest is 3 7/8 a fairly forgiving optic 
on the scope that hit the kid in the head the farthest you could be was about 1 1/2 inches an only about a 1/2 inch of forward and back I was behind him and didn't see how close his eye was or I would have stopped him before shooting

when I shoot 3 position with an adjustable stock I am all the way out and the 3/4 spacer that I added in prone and 2 clicks out from all the way in standing , 3-4 clicks out for seated depending.
one of the best arguments besides 2 or more people able to use one rifle for adjustable stocks is as you shift around the rifle for different positions it you need to stay the same distance from the optic with the same good cheek weld.

figuring out the closest and farthest a scope will provide a clear image and get down prone and get set behind the rifle comfortable in the position set the scope to be the closest in prone and then tighten a ring so it doesn't move and sit and stand and make sure your still good picture in all positions if you can't move the stock

if you can move the stock always setting for the middle of the 2 distances is ideal


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I'm ignorant in the field of optics science,
All I know is practical experience and what I've been taught down through the years by people with an education in optics (generally) and telescopic sights (in particular).
Since much of that comes from the military, and the military not being known to hire any random knuckle head off the street, what of it I can test for myself is accurate.

The OP's subject in the original post is 'Eye Relief', the optimum distance to get a full sight picture, and how far away from the ocular lens HOUSING you need to be in getting that full sight picture.

Since it's not the ocular (eye end) lens that gets you, but the housing,
We were taught to put the second knuckle of our thumbs in front of the cheek bone and try to touch the ocular HOUSING with the tip of the thumb.
If you can touch it, you are too close for heavy recoil.
(Keep in mind at the time we were talking 7.62 NATO and .300 Win Mag, the only two common long range rifles the military issued)

Then he went on to explain about the difference in 'Proper' and 'Common' eye relief.
I don't remember specifically what the definition of 'Common' eye relief was, and with this bunch jumping on anything and everything, I'm not about to paraphrase...

The 'Proper' way demonstrated to us was to,
1. Focus the optic at something about 100 yards out so you had the sharpest sight picture,
2. Cut out a star shape in a piece of paper that fit against the Objective (target end) lens,
3. Shine a brighter light than room light through the Objective lens,
4. Move the optic vertically up/down over a white sheet of paper until the sharpest 'Star' appeared on the sheet of paper below the Ocular (eye) end,
5. When you mount the optic, 
Measure the distance for the 'Proper' eye relief (from step 4) from your eyeball to the Ocular housing,
(I'm NOT poking myself in the eyeball to get an exact measurement!  )
6. Mount the optic at the 'Proper' distance from your eyeball.

Now, this is the way I was taught, if you don't agree with it, it doesn't mean anything to me since it works for me.
The paper stars and flashlight trick has kept me from buying optics I couldn't mount 'Properly', no matter if it's 'Right' or 'Wrong' for anyone else, it works for me and everyone else I've showed it to.

The 'Idea' is,
There is a 'Proper' distance between the last lens in the optic (ocular) and your eyeball lens, and even small small changes (focal point at eyeball?) makes the image fuzzy.

The focus (internal) depends on the distance between lenses in the optic, the clarity of sight picture depends on your distance between eyeball and last lens in the optic.
Anyone have to adjust distance of something in front of you to make out details? Same principal.

It let's me know if the optic has enough eye relief for recoil, and if I have enough mounting adjustment room to make an optic work on the rifle it's intended for so I don't waste time/money.

The reasoning of a 5 or 6 point star was to see if all areas of the lenses were ground properly to work with each other.
Many optics 30-40 years ago you couldn't get sharp points out at the edges, which saved me from the 'Latest-Greatest' and 'Internet Buzz' advertised optics off the day.
Some optics had sharp points on one side, but not the other showing there was a problem with lense shape or alignment inside the tube,
And NOT being an optics engineer, I had no idea how to 'Fix' the issue, so it was a problem either you lived with or didn't buy in the first place.

The star/flash light is also a way to diagnose when a lens gets loose and needs to get serviced...

I'm with the OP, the $29 bubble pack or no name optics all have significant flaws for me, particularly since age is changing my eyesight in ways I never expected...
A 'Good' optic doesn't have to cost as much as a new car engine, but a 'Good' optic costs what it costs... And that's based on application.

I don't need a 2,000 yard capable 'Mega-buck' optic on a 50 yard rimfire squirrel shooter.
A rimfire simply isn't going to lay the abuse on an optic a 2,000 yard capable rifle recoil is going to...
I also don't want the bubble pack $29 no-name that won't hold adjustment sitting in the gun rack...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I was setting a wooden ruler on top of the scope and once I had my eye where I wanted it sliding it back to touch my eye brow for my measurement.

I also am not needing to touch my eye ball for a measurement

when picking out optics in a store if I can't get a 3 finger boy scout salute between my brow and the housing it is definitely going to stay at the store

finger width varies but mine come to 2 1/4" for 3 out at the first knuckle I would really like to see the ability to do more like 4 fingers back at the second knuckle 3 inches for me.

I have some blister pack 29.99 scopes that I have tried on 22s in the past they were better than this scope


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Europeans solved the 'Expensive Scopes' problem, along with the early lenses having only about the center 10% or 15% correctly ground and placed (optical center).

The mounts had the adjustment, and the optic had a locking lug for repeatable zero.
The optic could be moved from rifle mount to rifle mount saving having an expensive optic on each rifle...
Since the lenses never moved in the optic, you stayed in that 10%-15% optical center of aligned lenses and didn't adjust out into never-never land.

40 years ago we used to lap ring & mounts as to keep close enough to optical center alignment, precision CNC grinding equipment and computer modeling have reduced the 'Never-Never Land' to almost zero on the high end optics, but the really low dollar stuff has issues.

If I had to guess, I think the no name optics use the QC fails or worn out equipment to make the no name scopes... 
And I know what you mean about no name, not a hint of a manufacturing marking, no hint of who made them.
I bought a .17 HMR that was a 'Package' from a guy that insisted it was the rifle, so I bought it cheap just because I wanted a .17 HMR...
Threw a pattern like a scatter gun, but an optic change later it was a one holer! REALLY fun little rifle and a tack driver to boot!
I didn't inflict the optic on anyone else, it's still in the junk box...


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

JeepHammer, thank you for those detailed instructions. I may have to try that if I ever feel the urge to buy a scope.

I have a difficult time choosing scopes. With my vision problems my glasses cause a lot of problems getting a scope adjusted. One tiny little point of light that I can see only if I hold the rifle at an awkward angle is absolutely worthless.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> I have a difficult time choosing scopes.


Most brands list the eye relief in the specs.
There's no need for any elaborate routines to get them set up properly on the rifles.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

When you don't know what your eye relief is, the listing on the package doesn't help. I've never found one that was set up at a point where I could see through it.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> When you don't know what *your eye relief* is, the listing on the package doesn't help.


"Eye relief" applies to the optical device, not the person using it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_relief

"The *eye relief* of an optical instrument (such as a telescope, a microscope, or binoculars) is *the distance from the last surface of an eyepiece within which the user's eye can obtain the full viewing angle.* If a viewer's eye is outside this distance, a reduced field of view will be obtained. The calculation of eye relief is complex, though generally, the higher the magnification and the larger the intended field-of-view, the shorter the eye relief."


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

By that definition, the distance from the viewer to the scope would be the same for every viewer using that scope.

What is the explanation for why one person can see through a scope with no problem but another person sees only a tiny white blur in a large black field?

targettamers.com/guides/what-is-eye-relief/ explains it better

According to gungoals.com eye relief can vary from person to person. They have a page with instructions on how to adjust eye relief.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

where a scope is mounted is absolutely fit to the user of that gun.

if you aren't fitting the scope to the user , then then an adjustable stock is used to fit the gun to the user

part of why , mounted and bore sighted from the factory scopes are of no use to me.

first I am going to have to move it to fit me any way , second I am certainly not going to trust that while mounting the base and rings they used a thread locker. I take them all apart and torque to spec with thread locker. why risk a hunt to a nickles worth of thread locker applied once.

I may be on a budget and put a 129 dollar optic in 16 dollar rings but so far that has worked very well for me with a bit of thread locker. and it is a much better combo than so much of the Junk being put on combo guns.

it takes so few rounds to properly sight in an optic and you needed the practice with that new gun any way.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> By that definition, the distance from the viewer to the scope would be the same for every viewer using that scope.


That's correct.
The eye relief of the scope doesn't change, but the shooter's positioning does.



Danaus29 said:


> *What is the explanation* for why one person can see through a scope with no problem but another person sees only a tiny white blur in a large black field?


Operator error and poorly fitting firearms.

The eye relief itself remains a constant.
It's based on the physics of the optical device and cannot change just because someone else picks up the gun.



Danaus29 said:


> According to gungoals.com eye relief can vary from person to person. They have a page with instructions on how to adjust eye relief.


The eye relief isn't changing.
Guns just don't *fit* everyone the same so there has to be room for adjustment.

Even Gungoals says the same thing, even though much of the article is poorly worded:

https://gungoals.com/how-to-adjust-eye-relief-on-a-rifle-scope/



> *Short and Sweet*
> Eye relief is the distance needed between your eye and the lens of your rifle scope to see a full field of view (FOV).


The person who wrote the article is wrong in saying you are "adjusting the eye relief".

What you are adjusting is the scopes position so your eye, when comfortably holding the gun in a shooting position, is in the proper place to take advantage of the eye relief available.

This article gives a decent explanation:
https://www.opticsplanet.com/howto/how-to-choose-a-riflescope-light-transmission-and-eye-relief.html


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

This is far to complicated for me.
I check eye relief when I get a full field of view. Three more or less fingers between housing and brow and I'm happy. See target clearly, place crosshairs, expect bullet to hit where crosshairs a pointing.
I'm happy.
Most scopes are Nikon 3x9
Have a Vortex 4x12 diamond back.
2x5 kronus is on 20ga.
The Kronus is the worst for clarity but its adequate to 100 yrs. And I tend to shoot my deer very close.
Again, I'm happy.


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