# Bit less training:



## HorsesNGoats (Feb 5, 2015)

I have a two year old (almost 3) that I'm training. She's very calm and patient! I would really love to train her without a bit, but I'm not sure what to use. Bosle(not sure if I spelled that right), hackamore, bit less bridle? I plan to barrel race her eventually, but I really think that a bit would harm her more than do her good. Any thoughts?


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

I think bitless is fine. I always started all mine using just a halter with reins attached, then a sidepull and while I usually moved on to a snaffle eventually almost all of them are still good about riding in a halter. The thing about barrel racing though is you're asking for a lot of speed between barrels and then have to check them pretty quick when it come to the turns so you may need to use a mechanical hack for that. Once you get your filly started on barrels you can experiment and see what you need to use. I would wait a few more years before I asked her for speed anyway because she's a ways out from being fully mature.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

If you figure bitless works for you, go for it but if you're of the opinion that bitless is less severe, you may be surprised. 

They can be harsh and harmful if not fitted correctly and used as light handed as bits.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

Has horse had her mouth checked within the last year? Any horse should have their mouth checked yearly, regardless of if you plan to use a bit or not. The Vet or Horse Dentist can make sure any baby teeth caps are coming off as expected, or pop off the stuck-on caps to allow adult teeth to come in well. They also check the chewing molars to remove points, give horse a good chewing surface for best use of feed, hay, nutrition getting into the horse. Front grazing teeth should be meeting flat, so they can bite off grass or get a good bite of hay from a bale. And she should be checked to have any wolf teeth removed. Wolf teeth can be movable, not have good roots, so they cause problems. And you may change your mind about using a mouthpiece on her. So it is good management to have the wolf teeth out, should you want to bit her later without horse reacting poorly if bit bumps her teeth. Wolf teeth on my horses all came out with no sedation, no bad reaction from horse beyond a drop or two of blood. Both male and female horses have had wolf teeth, so we have all horses checked and wolf teeth removed at a young age. Young usually means smaller teeth, so they are very easy to remove quickly. Having the Professional mouth folks checking things can also tell you if she has any abnormalities you might need to work around, like over or undershot jaw, missing or malformed jawbones. 

Our Horse Dentist told us one young horse had broken his jaw, probably about 6 months before and it was healing nicely. WOW, totally news to us!! The healed jaw had shortened his lower bar on the broken side, so horse needs extra padding on the mouthpiece side to be most comfortable these days. Plus we let him sit an extra year to make sure everything was healed well, jaw was solid in the bone structure again.

You can train a horse any way you like to be steerable. I have not seen the bitless methods to be easy on the horse, with quick learning. Bosal (braided rawhide noseband) IS a part of the hackamore system in old fashioned training, so using both terms is redundant when talking about systems. I haven't seen the bitless systems have much finesse in the more skilled uses of horse, and sometimes are useless if horse "doesn't feel like cooperating" that day. Rider doesn't really have a great deal of control. 

I am curious why you think a bit in her mouth is harmful? The rider's hands control the reins and bit, so it is up to the rider to be light and teach the horse how to do as requested. We used a mechanical hackamore with no mouthpiece on our older Games horse and he liked it. However he was ALREADY very well trained with bits in his mouth on how to turn, halt, steer, and light on the reins while doing those things, before he ever did Barrels or the other Games he ran in. He ran well for my daughter and they almost always placed, though maybe not first each time. She trained him for the Games under my instruction, he was a machine when finished. He ran the same pattern each outing, like a train on a track, because that pattern is what allowed him to win in spite of his big size. He won over some FAST horses who were not able to stay on pattern and wasted lots of time. He loved the Games, knew he was going to run when he got the mechanical hackamore on his face. You just asked, he went. Never needed a whip or spurs, she sat tight, no leg flapping. So pretty to watch them go!

I would agree with Teej, you want to wait for horse to grow up, which is closer to age 6yrs than anything younger. There are NO "early maturing breeds", despite what you see and hear. There are BIG young horses, but they are not fully (bone) mature until about age 6yrs. Running Barrels is HARD on soft bone, young joints that are immature. Hard use like that can affect the animal's long term soundness.


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## HorsesNGoats (Feb 5, 2015)

goodhors said:


> Has horse had her mouth checked within the last year? Any horse should have their mouth checked yearly, regardless of if you plan to use a bit or not. The Vet or Horse Dentist can make sure any baby teeth caps are coming off as expected, or pop off the stuck-on caps to allow adult teeth to come in well. They also check the chewing molars to remove points, give horse a good chewing surface for best use of feed, hay, nutrition getting into the horse. Front grazing teeth should be meeting flat, so they can bite off grass or get a good bite of hay from a bale. And she should be checked to have any wolf teeth removed. Wolf teeth can be movable, not have good roots, so they cause problems. And you may change your mind about using a mouthpiece on her. So it is good management to have the wolf teeth out, should you want to bit her later without horse reacting poorly if bit bumps her teeth. Wolf teeth on my horses all came out with no sedation, no bad reaction from horse beyond a drop or two of blood. Both male and female horses have had wolf teeth, so we have all horses checked and wolf teeth removed at a young age. Young usually means smaller teeth, so they are very easy to remove quickly. Having the Professional mouth folks checking things can also tell you if she has any abnormalities you might need to work around, like over or undershot jaw, missing or malformed jawbones.
> 
> Our Horse Dentist told us one young horse had broken his jaw, probably about 6 months before and it was healing nicely. WOW, totally news to us!! The healed jaw had shortened his lower bar on the broken side, so horse needs extra padding on the mouthpiece side to be most comfortable these days. Plus we let him sit an extra year to make sure everything was healed well, jaw was solid in the bone structure again.
> 
> ...


I think she will become more of a willing horse without a bit. I have a horse that has to have a bit to make him mind, however she isn't like that. I want to get her to the point where she wants to work. I have the time and hopefully the patience. &#128523;


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

I have lots of really willing horses that I use a "soft" bit on, but it doesn't matter how soft, in the wrong hands ANY bit can be mean or harsh. 

A Bosal is strictly a training beginner, much like a halter with reins would be. It's control is in the nose band, and you can abuse that very, very easily without realizing you are even doing it.. I would never ride in one full time. A Hackamore is ok, but you have NO control should your horse really want to misbehave. I would ride with a bit, even just a simple O Ring Snaffle for at least something to control with should the need arise.

I also agree about age and work. 6 is the earliest I put any of my horses into any type of full time work, even my "fast growing" ones. There is no such thing! They take a long time to fully developed their joints, tendons, bones, etc. and I have seen growth in my 6-8 year olds still. please don't start your horse heavily for a couple or few more years. I ride them on their 3rd Birthday, at a walk. I will open them up to a trot and lope, but not fast or hard. I generally get all of my reining, leg work,,etc done for the first couple of years under saddle, then move up to finishing them starting at age 5, but not working them hard until 6. I have Thoroughbreds, Quarter Horses, a Mustang, an Appendix, and a draft cross, several of each actually, and I don't start any of them any differently, all of them have good muscle, joints, bones, etc, dental work done yearly if needed, wolf teeth pulled if they have them, etc. it makes better sense to do it like this and be able to ride them until they are into their 20's than it does to blow them out by the time they are 12 and have to put them down (just saw that at my vets last month, a beautiful Palomino Roping gelding being euthanized for blown out hocks? Truly sad.).


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Have you considered a cross under (figure 8) bridle? I trained both of my miniature donkeys with one and they work just fine. They are considered kinder than a bosal or hackamore.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

HorsesNGoats said:


> I think she will become more of a willing horse without a bit. I have a horse that has to have a bit to make him mind, however she isn't like that. I want to get her to the point where she wants to work. I have the time and hopefully the patience. &#128523;


I think this is one of the greatest misconceptions among riders. If a horse needs a bit to be willing, the horse needs more training and quite honestly, it shouldn't matter what you use, you should have an easy to manage, willing horse.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I mean this with no disrespect, so I hope I don't inadvertently upset someone but - coming from the Gaming side of horsemanship, I can see how you might be aiming for a bitless goal.

I'm going to be real careful here about how I word things because I don't want to paint all gamers with the same brush... HOWEVER!

Some of the sad excuse for "horsemanship" that I see from some "gamers" and some of the awful things they put in their horses' mouths and strap to their faces is just atrocious. Yes, there are other areas of equine sport that are equally ham-handed and abusive. This is not confined to gaming.

Reading interpretively, what I see in your original post is not JUST a desire to go bitless, but a general desire to have a willing, co-operative steed that does not require the torture devices that some people use. Good for you! You have seen that there is room for improvement and you are trying to set your horse up for success.

Just know that you don't have to go all the way to bitless to be humane and gentle. Educating your hands and your horse is the true answer to the problem you are trying to overcome. Spur, spur, spur, yank, yank, yank is never going to make for a willing mount. Find a competitor that is successful without being abusive and then figure out what sets her apart from the others.

:goodjob:


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## HorsesNGoats (Feb 5, 2015)

Maura said:


> Have you considered a cross under (figure 8) bridle? I trained both of my miniature donkeys with one and they work just fine. They are considered kinder than a bosal or hackamore.


I haven't, but I defiantly will look into it!


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## HorsesNGoats (Feb 5, 2015)

I had no plans to have a 1D two year old, I just wondered what the best thing without a bit was.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Jenni, one of the stars of the jumping world was Snowball, an Amish plow horse. He always wore a straight rubber bit. I agree it is in the training, not the devices. You can train a horse with no headstall at all, just as you can train a dog without ever using a leash.

The best thing without a bit is the figure 8.
www.nurturalhorse.com in Canada. I have one of theirs.
www.bitlessbridle.com, the Dr. Cook bridle. I have one of theirs.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

I've used a bosal to a snaffle to a curb - it works fine. But usually, I just skip a step and use a nice fat smooth eggbutt snaffle with a copper mouth. I've never found a horse that doesn't love that bit, and depending on what I'm doing with them, a lot of them stay in it for life.


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## HorsesNGoats (Feb 5, 2015)

Here's what I found. The rawhide one is used by a lot of barrel racers, and I feel like it would give me more control. I would really like to start her now in what I plan to barrel race her with(in like 3 years). However I'm willing to change it to better suit my horse. My grandma uses the leather one on her mare and it works like a dream for her. Any thoughts?


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## rambotex (May 5, 2014)

Bosal


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

HorsesNGoats said:


> View attachment 45564
> View attachment 45565
> 
> Here's what I found. The rawhide one is used by a lot of barrel racers, and I feel like it would give me more control. I would really like to start her now in what I plan to barrel race her with(in like 3 years). However I'm willing to change it to better suit my horse. My grandma uses the leather one on her mare and it works like a dream for her. Any thoughts?



Neither is as mild as you think they are but if you use them properly, just like any bit, you'll be fine. 

My objection doesn't relate to your desire to go bitless but more with your belief that the devices you've considered are 'kinder' or less severe or that using a bit is in some way damaging to a horse.


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## HorsesNGoats (Feb 5, 2015)

wr said:


> Neither is as mild as you think they are but if you use them properly, just like any bit, you'll be fine.
> 
> My objection doesn't relate to your desire to go bitless but more with your belief that the devices you've considered are 'kinder' or less severe or that using a bit is in some way damaging to a horse.


No, it's not that at all! I can see how you would think that from what I said. And yes I was kind of hoping it would be kinder. I have a horse who is literally the best horse I have ever met. If I tried to ride him without a bit, there's a good chance I would end up on the ground. I really think she would benefit from a hackamore because she has such a calm willing to please temperament. Of coarse if she doesn't do well I can always put a snaffle in her mouth. I'm fairly new to training. She's the first horse I've ever worked with to only have been halter broke (kind of) when I got her. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought a hackamore would be kinder if used correctly.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

HorsesNGoats said:


> No, it's not that at all! I can see how you would think that from what I said. And yes I was kind of hoping it would be kinder. I have a horse who is literally the best horse I have ever met. If I tried to ride him without a bit, there's a good chance I would end up on the ground. I really think she would benefit from a hackamore because she has such a calm willing to please temperament. Of coarse if she doesn't do well I can always put a snaffle in her mouth. I'm fairly new to training. She's the first horse I've ever worked with to only have been halter broke (kind of) when I got her. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought a hackamore would be kinder if used correctly.



As I have stated a couple of times, they aren't kinder and I've seen damaged facial bones because people like yourself believe the myth. 

Kinder comes from proper training and a skilled rider and if both are in place, there is no harm or discomfort to the horse, no matter what is used. 

A well trained horse works more off leg than face or at least that's his I've been training them for the last 25 years or so.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

Put that top long-shanked hackamore over your arm or leg and give the reins a good pull.

Then do the same with a fat egg butt snaffle.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Alder said:


> Put that top long-shanked hackamore over your arm or leg and give the reins a good pull.
> 
> Then do the same with a fat egg butt snaffle.



I was taught to check for pinch and bit severity that way but it is hard to explain in a few sentences.


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## HorsesNGoats (Feb 5, 2015)

wr said:


> As I have stated a couple of times, they aren't kinder and I've seen damaged facial bones because people like yourself believe the myth.
> 
> Kinder comes from proper training and a skilled rider and if both are in place, there is no harm or discomfort to the horse, no matter what is used.
> 
> A well trained horse works more off leg than face or at least that's his I've been training them for the last 25 years or so.


Ok, I suppose I will have to figure it out for myself. I know a well trained horse works off leg pressure. I'm probably not wording these comments how I truly mean them.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

Adding my information, is that you will need two or three "directional devices" to get your horse trained from nothing to a more finished horse at age 4yrs and up. Nothing I have ever trained has "done it all" using only one kind of bit. I am of the belief that starting with a snaffle (broken mouthpiece, ring sides) and then moving to other mouthpiece types, adding leverage with a curb strap of some sort LATER, and finishing with a solid, low port mouthpiece, swivel sides curb bit, has been our chosen route to reaching a much more finished horse.

For a "light horse" sensitive to rein signals, obedient, you need to TRAIN horse to understand the bit working in his mouth. For us, a horse has a TRAINED mouth, not actually a "light" mouth so beloved in horse fiction. If a mouth was to be light, then the newly started horse would be the BEST of horses to ride. Instead that horse is NOT light mouthed, just over reactive to almost ANY touch of the reins because he doesn't understand what touch means. Horse doesn't GIVE to the reins or hands of rider, it turns into a pulling contest as horse LEANS on the bit pressure.

With the true ring sided snaffle (whatever the mouthpiece) you are able to LEAD the head around with a rein pull. Horse learns to follow his nose and SHOULD get more relaxed doing this as he does it more with training. There is NO chin pressure from a curb strap/chain at all. I do suggest using a leather curb strap under his chin to prevent possible pulling the bit ring into his mouth with your arm out to the side for his turns. Seen that happen now and again, so just having the strap on the bit prevents the problem. You do need to stick that leading hand straight out in the direction you wish to go, when starting out, so it is easier for him to respond well and start turning. Keeping hands right in front of your body by the saddle horn is harder on the horse as you will be pulling straight back and causing confusion asking for turns.

For a young horse I do not recommend a thick mouthpiece. Eggbutt can be TOO big for the uneducated mouth and horse can't manage his tongue plus big bit. Too thin of mouthpiece is also not wanted, because thin will be sharper on his gums when reins are pulled. Try to find a middle of the road thickness for the mouthpiece, for his "first" bit. I also don't like copper, it causes a chemical reaction in the mouth, not kind to the horse. I know copper is popular, but after learning about the reaction, I no longer use bits with copper in them. If you want LOTS of fake foam, put a finger tipped with salt on his tongue, it will give you plenty of foam. Horse this young, untrained, is not going to be "working the bit" with your hands, so any foam produced is not truly "soft mouth" foam from correct bit use.

OP might want to look at some Stacy Westfall video on U-tube, see what she can show you about starting a horse and getting control of their parts. I watched her presentations at Michigan Horse Expo this weekend and she does a LOVELY job in a manner you and horse both can understand. She had been a Barrel Racer and knows how horse needs to move to win. Not a big bit "thing" it is a body control thing! Same needs in her present competition area of Reining. I remembered a lot of steps and skills I hadn't used for a while, need to go put them on my horses! Worth watching the videos to understand what she is doing to have such good results.

Just want you to know that there is no "does everything" bit to go from starting to the much more finished horse. You change the bits to teach the steps needed to move up from Pre-school where your horse is, to grades 3-4-5 and on up as a finished horse for your needs. That horse my DD used had several bits he used for different classes, plus the mechanical hackamore bit for games. Each bit was "what he needed" for that area of competition. None were harsh, shanks ended in rein loops JUST under the mouthpiece if curbs, also went on smooth 3-piece ring snaffle for Hunter classes. TRAINING his mouth and body, allowed him to go so well, not a particular "magic bit". Rider controlled the reins, asked and got, what she needed from him without head tossing, no resistances or fights.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

goodhors, very good post! Stacey Westfall, hadn't thought to suggest her videos...but she is a good trainer who knows horses and what she needs to do to get out of a horse what she wants. I have taken away a lot of good information from watching and listening to her, as well as a few other trainers. 

Good explanation of light/trained mouth. I use the word light, always have, but "trained" is a better explanation of why "light" happens! I have a very green mare who pulls like a freight train on her bit, no matter what mouth piece I use, but I consider her untrained, not hard mouthed. My old TB mare is very soft mouthed, she is a very well trained, ridden for years horse, hence the "soft" mouth. It is easier to understand using the trained and untrained terms, thanks for bringing it up.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

If you have a horse that "needs a bit to make him mind" you need to go back and learn the basics again. I rode a horse the other day (my first time riding this horse) and she has a bitless bridle( a rope feeling noseband covered with leather, with rings on the side. She has a bad habit of running through the bridle and taking off. After a half hour I had her on a loose rein responding on a dime to small cues(turning, transitions to all gaits, halt, backing) with relaxed gaits, and no taking off (and no I didn't run her into the ground to tire her out or burn off yayas).


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

I was "trained" to start a horse in a bosal then put them in a snaffle. But you gotta know what you're doing with a bosal, it can really hurt. Also remember 3 years old is still very young in the mind, and they are still growing in the body, so don't get too complicated/physically intense with a rider on, say like the gymnastics of fast reining or jumping. Relaxed trail riding with buddies makes a great foundation.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Some of those hackamores are wicked harsh.

Started her off with the padded Dr Cook... while it was ok... when it is fitted correctly, it was hard to her to graze when we took breaks.

Sooo...
Now...
Dyfra is mostly ridden bitless... in a Lodgeropes Enduro
Tune ups with her Myler low port mullen. Think it is important to teach them about the bit,,,just in case, in the future, something happens and they have to find a new home.

I mostly ride her using my seat... reins are mostly just there, to make everyone else happy.

Have just as much control of her in a bitless. (and she can be hot and quite spirited...) As bited.


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