# should gays be able to seve openly in the military



## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

should gays be able to serve openly in the military


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## comfortablynumb (Nov 18, 2003)

your a brave man bob....

lol


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

comfortablynumb said:


> your a brave man bob....
> 
> lol


thanks numb, i am sure you are too


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## suburbanite (Jul 27, 2006)

We need everyone capable who wants to serve.

Since we have shown that women and men can serve together in a professional manner, what logical reason is there to restrict openly gay men? How is it any different from having a mixed-gender unit to have a mixed-orientation unit? Nobody is supposed to get sexually involved with folk in their unit anyway, so why does gender or orientation matter.


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## moopups (May 12, 2002)

Yes, homosexuals should be able to serve in the military if they serve the military and not their own interests. There is where the difference lies.

We non homosexuals want our word back, 'gay' is not a gender related word, but rather an indication of a state of being, usually light and lively, do you have knowledge of the 'Gay 90's"?

Homosexuality is a disorder within the 22nd pair of chromosomes, its a birth defect in my opinion. Research is being conducted as we read these words. It is not a natural state of being. If all creatures on this Earth were homosexual, where would all be now?

The one biggest mistake most gays make is not learning to shut up about it. It is of no interest to the vast majority of non gays. I refuse to stumble to your use of the word 'straight', its not necessary to put myself on any scale of your making.

Clinton's 'Don't ask, don't tell policy' was a side step from responsibility, the need to side step is that so called (incorrectly) gay communities were putting pressure on the too flexible politicians.

I have seen your verbalizations on a parallel forum, I am not impressed. Just because further verbalizations are allowed there does not make you right. It just makes you more noisy. Yes, I have an identity there, guess who?


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Congress decided to make it a felony, and congress did.

Until congress decides to do otherwise it will remain a felony.

Your opinion makes little difference. My opinion makes little difference. Every servicemember's opinions make little difference on this topic.

Acting out those actions is a crime, and anyone in the US military who does those actions is a felon.

Criminals should be prosecuted, and felons should be booted out of the military.

Unless someone somewhere has ever heard of any congressmen debating otherwise, I have never heard of such a thing. And so long as congress never changes their laws, then it will remain a crime.


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## donsgal (May 2, 2005)

I don't think so. Not from the point of view that it is wrong, but from the point of view of their own safety. There are still A LOT of bigots in the world, and you will find some in the military too. I cannot see an arrangement where homosexual and hetrosexual men can co-exists under the conditions necessary - sharing showers and bathroom facilities in very close quarters. All it would take would be one untoward glance, or one innocent pat or brushing up against a "straight" guy and all heck would break loose. Nope, they would be fragged left and right. The world is not yet ready for this kind of arrangement. 

donsgal


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

moopups said:


> Yes, homosexuals should be able to serve in the military if they serve the military and not their own interests. There is where the difference lies.......The one biggest mistake most gays make is not learning to shut up about it. It is of no interest to the vast majority of non gays.


I agree with Moopups on this. Also I think there's a big difference between being admittedly homosexual and being openly homosexual. There's a right time and a right place for everything but I don't think it would serve a gay person any useful purpose to admitting to it or being open about it if one wants to be in the military. The military is about the military, it's not about an individual's personal preferences.
.


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## GSFarm (Aug 7, 2007)

Most openly gay men are to feminine to fight. IMO.


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

GSFarm said:


> Most openly gay men are to feminine to fight. IMO.


But those butch women are just fine, eh?

How far is this ridiculous thread going to go? Don't the 'phobes have some wood to cut or something?


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## comfortablynumb (Nov 18, 2003)

> We non homosexuals want our word back


good one... lol


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## Jenn (Nov 9, 2004)

donsgal said:


> I don't think so. Not from the point of view that it is wrong, but from the point of view of their own safety. There are still A LOT of bigots in the world, and you will find some in the military too. I cannot see an arrangement where homosexual and hetrosexual men can co-exists under the conditions necessary - sharing showers and bathroom facilities in very close quarters. All it would take would be one untoward glance, or one innocent pat or brushing up against a "straight" guy and all heck would break loose. Nope, they would be fragged left and right. The world is not yet ready for this kind of arrangement.
> 
> donsgal


This was once the situation for black servicemen (not quite the situ for servicewomen of any color). The military usually leads the way on fairness and equality as it has on race and gender issues. Interesting we are sacrificing the best interests of the country ( to have the best soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines possible no matter their sex color religion whatever) to pander to the prejudices of many. Perhaps though there is a fear if gays are allowed in the military the military might lose its cache as the last bastion of machismo.


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## Jenn (Nov 9, 2004)

moopups said:


> <snip>Homosexuality is a disorder within the 22nd pair of chromosomes, its a birth defect in my opinion. Research is being conducted as we read these words. It is not a natural state of being. If all creatures on this Earth were homosexual, where would all be now?<snip>


Moopups I hate to pick on you but surely someday we'll find the genetic predisposition to PTSD on the chromosomes and then folks like you (and probably like me) with that particular 'birth defect' will be barred from wartime service....


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Jenn said:


> ... The military usually leads the way on fairness and equality as it has on race and gender issues.


The US military did not decide to do any such thing.

It did as it was required to do by law.

I watched how things were before urinalysis and after. Before there were servicemembers who did drugs, but I saw a general attitude of "so long as it does not effect their job, fine. But if they do not hide it, if they get caught in the act, or if they ever let it effect their performance; then lets dump them". 

Every four years our military experiences a 50% change-out of personnel. Half of the servicemembers were not servicemembers four years ago.

So when the courts brought in urinalysis things changed, but after ten years, now most US servicemembers have no memory of a military without urinalysis. The attitude of "we do not allow it, get it out of here, and lets get rid of anyone who would do those drugs".

A total change of mentality.

Not brought about by the military, but by the legislature and the courts.

When our nation makes a new policy effecting the military, wait four years and you can see it's effect.

If our government were to decide to remove the laws making sodomy a felony, then given four years, most servicemembers would see it differently.


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## Thorny man (Oct 9, 2006)

Anyone give a thought to gay men get to shower with non gay men...

This would be like straight men getting to shower with women....

I don't care if anyone is "gay" I hate that word, or not. That doesn't bother me, but walking in a room with 20 showers and having a gay guy looking around does bother me......

Hence the reason that men play the bathroom game.... If a man walks into a restroom and there are 5 urinals, he will go either end urinal or the middle.
If a man is in the middle using it, the next man will skip one urinal and go to the next one .... You get the point, ask any man about this..... don't ask why, we don't like other men looking at our equipment, doesn't matter the size, just don't look....

Now a gay person who is sexually inclined to other men in a shower or if in a gym the steam room, sauna, yadda yadda .....

Just the same as a guy showering with all the women in a large shower room....

Now my experience from when I was married and other men talking is when a woman comes out of the shower she almost immediately wraps a towel around here even with only her husband in the room

It is just something you do and it makes you feel comfortable....

Just my two cents...... 

As far as fighting in a war, or serving along with, no opinion. Just don't want to shower with....... 

Go ahead Flame on......


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## Labrat407 (Aug 24, 2007)

> Thorny man Anyone give a thought to gay men get to shower with non gay men...
> 
> This would be like straight men getting to shower with women....
> 
> I don't care if anyone is "gay" I hate that word, or not. That doesn't bother me, but walking in a room with 20 showers and having a gay guy looking around does bother me......


On the average, most of the people in the shower will not be that attractive, go stand on the corner and look at the people around you (men and women) out of a hundred how many are you seriously attracted to. It will be the same for all sexual orientations.

If a good looking woman found you attractive, are you flattered? would you act upon it? Maybe it could be taken as a complement and that is that. (or if you are a closeted Republican, you could find a stall.)



> Yes, homosexuals should be able to serve in the military if they serve the military and not their own interests. There is where the difference lies.
> 
> We non homosexuals want our word back, 'gay' is not a gender related word, but rather an indication of a state of being, usually light and lively, do you have knowledge of the 'Gay 90's"?
> 
> ...


We agree on something, They should be allowed in the military and I think all facets of society equally.

As for the word, Take it back. instead of saying you are happy, say you are feeling Gay. That is one of the meanings. If it has become common for it to refer to a person of different lifestyle, then make it common to mean Happy.

If we were all homosexual then we probably would be reproducing asexually. We also would be arguing about those damn Hetros and their abnormal behavior. There are many documented instances of homosexual behavior in animals .

Would people who are not Blond and Blue eyed be considered Birth defects? (yes, I went there) If you are a person who believes in Christianity then you get on to dangerous ground. There is the Free will argument and the argument for everything being part of a grand plan.

As for the not knowing when to shut up, I think some referred to Martin Luther King and Susan B Anthony with similar regard.

This argument would be moot if more and more people left their neighbors to themselves instead of pushing their agenda and beliefs on others. As there would be less need for armies.

I have known many people who were Homosexual or Lesbian, some very close to me. If they decided to give of their time and energy to defend the nation they live in the why not. They have even more reason to believe in an army that fights for justice.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Thorny man said:


> Anyone give a thought to gay men get to shower with non gay men...


I have spent fourteen years of my career onboard various submarines. I can assure you that I have never given any 'thought' to homosexual men in showers with straight men.

Is this a thought that keeps you awake at night?


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## georgec (Jul 9, 2007)

The Military in many cases is unlike any job in the civilian world. You not only work with the men, you also live with them. I served 4 years on a submarine, you spend months at time in close quarters with 100+ men. I would not have volunteered for this if I new there would be homosexual men on board. It's not because I hate homosexuals; I have known and worked with several. If someone chooses that lifestyle that is their choice. I just don't want to live with someone that I consider perverse. I am alowed to feel that about the homosexual act. The military would lose far more good men by allowing openly homosexuals than by excluding them.


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## Jenn (Nov 9, 2004)

ET1 SS said:


> The US military did not decide to do any such thing.
> 
> It did as it was required to do by law.
> 
> ...


Hey that explains it! SO the military takes 4-7 years to change to follow the laws, the rest of the country takes 30 years....


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Jenn said:


> Hey that explains it! SO the military takes 4-7 years to change to follow the laws, the rest of the country takes 30 years....


Yes.

When a kid goes into the military everyone expects that he is going to be indoctrinated into a different culture. Long hours, little sleep, boring lectures, and peer group pressure all focus on forming recruits into a different culture.

Bootcamps are places where the UCMJ is taught and hammered into the recruits minds.

The military does not work on generational knowledge, you do not have someone raised in the 1920's teaching kids from the 1990s. The bootcamp Company Commanders or Drill Instructors were often recruits themselves six to eight years previously. And CCs and DIs are closely watched and they are focused current rules and policies.


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## pheasantplucker (Feb 20, 2007)

I couldn't care less whether someone is homosexual or heterosexual in work, church, military, fraternity...whatever. I think if they are effective soldiers, that's important. their sexual orientation isn't.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

pheasantplucker said:


> I couldn't care less whether someone is homosexual or heterosexual in work, church, military, fraternity...whatever. I think if they are effective soldiers, that's important. their sexual orientation isn't.


However you have voted for legislators who have acted in your behalf by determining that homosexual actions are a felony for members of the military.

By the way, no body cares about their sexual orientation, the military and the UCMJ cares about a servicemembers actions. Not so much about what goes on inside their head.

There is no law against orientation.


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## FalconDance (Feb 4, 2007)

The whole "oh noes, you're gay - and evil and icky and I just know you're really after my booty!" is such a load of blooey. I served in the USN in the 80s and had the extreme misfortune to witness several GOOD sailors ousted on the basis they were homosexual. NOT because they did a poor job, NOT because they refused to follow orders, NOT even because they tried in any manner to force their sexual preferences on others or openly engaged in said preferences. 

Want to know what their 'crine' was? They refused the advances of heterosexual shipmates and were turned in as being 'deviants'. "Don't ask, don't tell" was their downfall, I guess. When asked directly under oath, they admitted they preferred their own gender. Didn't affect their job performance or worth as a human being. All it did was offend horny busybodies who thought themselves morally superior. I suppose they could have perjured themselves, huh.

So, why shouldn't homosexuals serve in the military? Does sexual preference preclude the desire or ability to protect your country and loved ones? Hellfire, I got sick and tired of fighting off the advances of the HETEROsexual sailors onboard ship - and I'm heterosexual myself! No one thinks twice about that, now do they. Nope, nope, as long as the men are bugging the hell out of hte women and the women are putting out, the world is safe. 

Pull head out of grits and start remembering that people are people. Doesn't matter what color the skin is or which gender you prefer to cuddle up to - we're all part of the same race - HUMAN.


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## pheasantplucker (Feb 20, 2007)

ET1 SS said:


> However you have voted for legislators who have acted in your behalf by determining that homosexual actions are a felony for members of the military.
> 
> By the way, no body cares about their sexual orientation, the military and the UCMJ cares about a servicemembers actions. Not so much about what goes on inside their head.
> 
> There is no law against orientation.


It won't be the first (or last) time legislators have acted against my will.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

sigh


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

moopups said:


> Homosexuality is a disorder within the 22nd pair of chromosomes, its a birth defect in my opinion. Research is being conducted as we read these words. It is not a natural state of being. If all creatures on this Earth were homosexual, where would all be now?
> 
> The one biggest mistake most gays make is not learning to shut up about it. It is of no interest to the vast majority of non gays. I refuse to stumble to your use of the word 'straight', its not necessary to put myself on any scale of your making.


Roughly 1 in 16 people are gay.
Roughy 8% of sheep are gay.
15% is the number estimated in the animal kingdom.(download the documentary!)
Quite the coincidence as far a defects go isn't it?

Uh since when is English a heterosexual language?? but frankly maybe you str8's shouldn't have started calling gays gay!


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## comfortablynumb (Nov 18, 2003)

could the fear possibly be (seriously..) that if they let gays be openly gay in the military, the military might find out they have WAY more gays serving than they ever wanted to imagine and that just freaks them out to no end?


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

comfortablynumb said:


> could the fear possibly be (seriously..) that if they let gays be openly gay in the military, the military might find out they have WAY more gays serving than they ever wanted to imagine and that just freaks them out to no end?


Whose fear?

You think that Congress fears, that to: legalize sodomy, and allow practicing homosexuals; we would see that many servicemembers are already homosexual?

I do not see that connection.


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

DocM said:


> But those butch women are just fine, eh?
> 
> How far is this ridiculous thread going to go? Don't the 'phobes have some wood to cut or something?


 i couldnt agree more


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## comfortablynumb (Nov 18, 2003)

hey it was just a thought.... nevermind.


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## n8tureboy (Dec 14, 2006)

> Roughly 1 in 16 people are gay.
> Roughy 8% of sheep are gay.
> 15% is the number estimated in the animal kingdom.(download the documentary!)
> Quite the coincidence as far a defects go isn't it?
> ...



I'm one of those proud straight's that you reference. If you want to be homosexual and proud.....then so be it! Please quit brow-beating all of society to death with these UNSUBSTANTIATED statistics.

Visit this site for the virtue of Homosexual love.www.massresistance.com


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

n8tureboy said:


> I'm one of those proud straight's that you reference. If you want to be homosexual and proud.....then so be it! Please quit brow-beating all of society to death with these UNSUBSTANTIATED statistics.
> 
> Visit this site for the virtue of Homosexual love.www.massresistance.com


Sorry you think it's brow-beating, I have posted links to the documentary in question but I did a search and couldn't find it so it may have been deleted. I may have even posted in the homeschooling forum so that parent could use it to educate their children, but alas it's gone. It was based on research that has been supressed for MANY years. The other statistical sources have also been posted on this forum before. The fact that some people choose to ignore them is not my problem.


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

n8tureboy said:


> Visit this site for the virtue of Homosexual love.www.massresistance.com


How can you possibly think a pro christian anti gay website would be of interest to me?


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

primal1 said:


> How can you possibly think a pro christian anti gay website would be of interest to me?


The operative word in your question is "think". It just isn't possible.


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

DocM said:


> The operative word in your question is "think". It just isn't possible.


You're naughty


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