# How far can you take off grid



## chsdiyer (Feb 18, 2017)

Hello all,

We recently bought some land and the lady next door refuses to let us have power. Even if she did, they'd want $6500 to connect us. My thought is to build off grid now, but i'm wondering how practical that would really be. My wife isn't up for yurt or small house living so I'm not sure how far we can go with an off grid scenario. We initially designed a 2900sqft house but have since scaled it back to 2500sqft. I'm not worried about winters cause we can use propane for heat or a wood fire place. It really doesn't get cold here but a month maybe. The summers will be tougher. I'm considering geothermal to cut down on the energy demand. We have 10 acres so plenty for ground loops. I don't think the solar cost would be our issue, but the battery backup. I figure we'd get a 15kW solar system and then preferably lithium ion back up. But the only affordable solution for that is the Tesla Powerwall, but I'm not sure how available those are. Their website suggests for a 4 bedroom house you'd need 3.

We typically get a tax refund every year so I'm not sure if we would get any money back on the tax credit. Most places I read say you wont get any money back unless you owe taxes you can count it toward that. But a couple of places i've read and an accountant have told me you can still get money back even if you already have a refund coming. 

So all in all, I'm looking at a 15kW solar array, 40kWh battery backup and a propane generator backup. Is this reasonable? Is it practical to go off grid in this size house with modern amenities?


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

My advice....
It's all part of a build.....it will always cost 3 times what you think, and take twice as long.(if you are lucky)
Pay the $6500 bucks...now, build and move in....all with be much easier to do WITH power.
Codes, financing permits..
Worry about options AFTER....you can always turn off the switch.

I guess I don't understand the ...."We recently bought some land and the lady next door refuses to let us have power. Even if she did, they'd want $6500 to connect us".

Didn't you check this out beforehand?....What does she have to do with it?
Just curious.


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## chsdiyer (Feb 18, 2017)

So we got hosed by our realtor, and hosed by the lawyer he put us with. We knew there was easement issues going in, but bought it anyway after the neighbor said she'd work it out with us. Well a year later she still hasn't and is not likely going to although she still says she will. I'd be crazy to keep expecting she will. The other reason we bought it was we talked to another lawyer who told us we'd obviously win if it went to court because the road has been there and on plats since the 1800s. Turns out the county agreed with us on that one and gave us a right of way, but what no one told us is, there is a difference between right of way access and utility access. Nothing in law assures you the right to have power so there is nothing we can do except build off grid. Worst part is, her deed says her property is bounded by the road. Yet apparently that doesn't matter. Trust me i've exhausted every other option.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Agree with Hunter on this one...if your considering a 2500sqft palace, pay the woman the money. I mulled over the same thing as you, but I didn't have a neighbor holding me for ransom. Where I wanted power was going to cost a penny, and I thought it would be cheaper to go solar right off the bat.
While that may true for me, winters are not solar friendly here. I'm glad I went with reliable, no fuss power, as you need a lot to build.
Now, if your home was going to be a 'passive house' build, perhaps solar from the get-go is the way to go. But to cool a 2500sqft home in a SC summer sounds like a serious undertaking (lots of power).
And $6500 is not that much, in the grand scheme of things.
I know a woman who is off grid, but she had a house already there with wood stove, so her energy needs were limited (heat being almost 50% of our power requirements up here). Sort of depends on how frugal with power you plan to be?


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## chsdiyer (Feb 18, 2017)

Sorry, the issue isn't whether or not i'll pay the neighbor $6500. She's inheritantly wealthy...meaning she's probably never worked a day but inherited all her wealth. The property in question is vacant land. So there's no amount of money I could offer her, she just doesn't care. The $6500 is the cost from the power company. The neighbor just refuses to allow us to have power. So if we want a house on that property, it's off grid or nothing. Our power bills typically run about $200/month so over 15 years that's $36,000, plus the $6500 to get it, in theory even if we could get power, we'd be in $42000 to the power company after 15 years. I figure that's a pretty good sized solar/battery system and should be doable. Our winters/spring/fall are pretty mild. Sure it gets hot in the summer, but that's cause the sun is shining bright which would translate into a lot of power produced. With a 15kW solar array, we'd easily cover our load. At some point the people who own land around us will develop and we'll get power out there, but I don't see that happening soon. At that point we'd probably connect to the grid and sell the power back and not have to worry about battery replacement.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

chsdiyer said:


> Sorry, the issue isn't whether or not i'll pay the neighbor $6500. She's inheritantly wealthy...meaning she's probably never worked a day but inherited all her wealth. The property in question is vacant land. So there's no amount of money I could offer her, she just doesn't care. The $6500 is the cost from the power company. The neighbor just refuses to allow us to have power. So if we want a house on that property, it's off grid or nothing. Our power bills typically run about $200/month so over 15 years that's $36,000, plus the $6500 to get it, in theory even if we could get power, we'd be in $42000 to the power company after 15 years. I figure that's a pretty good sized solar/battery system and should be doable. Our winters/spring/fall are pretty mild. Sure it gets hot in the summer, but that's cause the sun is shining bright which would translate into a lot of power produced. With a 15kW solar array, we'd easily cover our load. At some point the people who own land around us will develop and we'll get power out there, but I don't see that happening soon. At that point we'd probably connect to the grid and sell the power back and not have to worry about battery replacement.


Oh, I see. Curious, if running power poles to grid is an option? 
And if not, then there is no question as to your power source...
Almost wish grid power wasn't an option for me, but the thought of putting together a reliable solar system when I had so many other things on my plate didn't resonate with me. Plus, there is maintenance of a solar system, and batteries don't last forever...my off grid friend uses lead acid (cheaper by far, than lithium). Xantrax controller, which sings. And a diesel genset for winter. She has HWT/Stove/dryer on gas, which I am not a fan of (I just don't like gas). She makes it work, but she is miserly with power. And it helps the wood stove supplies all the heating (no cooling in summer). 
Once I get my bunker finished, I will look at pulling the plug. Batteries is my biggest concern. I heard as you did, Tesla power packs are quite something...just the price. And they haven't been around long enough to know durability. 
Best.


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## In The Woods (Apr 27, 2017)

You can set up any house to be off grid. And if done properly you would never know it when you visited.

All it takes is money.

The way I see it you have a base of construction cost for the system of $6500 - that is what you would be willing to pay the power company to run lines.

Since you have not yet started the building construction stage you can design your house around being off grid instead of the opposite. You are at a good vantage point.

Don't make an off grid system more difficult than it needs to be. You just have to sit down with your house plans and look at your enegery needs. As you do this you can make changes needed that will help.

Your biggest load (if SC means South Carolina) will be cooling. A/C just does not do well with solar power. I would look into a geo-thermal heating/cooling solution. Try to do what you can to seperatethe heating/cooling equipment from the rest of the system. Don't even try to run an A/C system from solar power.

Next biggest load will be refrigeration. I always like my propane refrigerator bit they are small. But that was 25 years ago - maybe there are bigger ones on the market now.

Another big load can be a water pump. Will you be using a deep well or have spring water nearby? If you can elimimate a big water pump all the better.

Then all that is left are lights and electromics. With LED lights available today that is easy. You can really light up a house with minimal power usage from a solar system. Same goes for TV's.

So try to seperate the heating/cooling, refrigeration, and the rest of the demands into 3 seperate systems.


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## RonM (Jan 6, 2008)

Seems like a bad move on your part. Apparently she doesn't want anyone back there and will fight tto keep them out, she has the money to do that ....


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

How are you getting to the property?
If you have a road easement....Why no a power line.
Something is right here....

You are getting hosed.


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## chsdiyer (Feb 18, 2017)

Ron/hunter, the property next to us that we're "fighting" with is a 5 acre parcel. Which used to be part of the 10 acres we bought in the 1800s. The woman who owns that property also owns thousands around the county. Her brother owns the property above us and her nephew owns the property on our other side. As best I can figure out, she hates her nephew and is convinced she's sticking it to him by not allowing anyone to run power or road through her property. Now, I have plats dating back to 1890 that have the road there and her own deed says she doesn't own the road. Yet the plat from the 50s that was for her property showed the road being on her property and that's what everyone is going by to say she owns the land the road is on. This is why I was always told, worst case, you can sue her and win. What I found out after, when I got a new lawyer, was how much that lawsuit could cost. After months of waiting I finally went to the county and they agreed we had a 50ft right of way. What I found out after that was that type of easement does not grant you utility rights. And what I later found out was even with a utility easement the power company wont set foot on her property without her establishing an easement with them directly. For a year she's been one week away from signing an easement, but in reality she hasn't taken one step toward that. So we give up waiting on her. It's a mess and i'm stuck in the middle of family feud. 

In the woods, Thanks for all the feedback! But why wouldn't you want to run AC on solar? We will be on a deep well. The well driller said it's a 230V/5A 1/2hp pump. I'm thinking we might want some type of holding tank so the pump wont need to kick on every time the faucet is turned on. We'll have a reverse osmosis system for the drinking water. I am looking into geothermal heat pump but I am new to that technology. I have 10 acres so I could pretty easily run horizontal ground loops. I know those are expensive systems to install and I've seen that people sell DIY systems, but not sure how realistic that is. I'm pretty handy and have done whole house plumbing and electrical systems, but have not ventured into HVAC due to the refrigerant issue. I have a friend that just built a house in town and his house is 3400sqft. He has a 2 ton and 2.5 ton heat pump. Our old house was a 2000sqft 1830s house and we had to have 3 and 3.5 ton units. So I'm hoping our new house built efficiently wont have too much HVAC load, but it definitely wont be insignificant. Though it's only really a big issue in the summer. Spring and fall are pretty easy.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Do an energy audit....then get an estimate on cost....

I guess that all you can do.
My estimate for 15KWH was about $35K and didn't include batteries.
That was in 2004.


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## chsdiyer (Feb 18, 2017)

I was looking at Canadian Solar panels which are about 17.5% efficiency. I could get 15kW for $10k...just the panels. Panasonic cells which would be better are about $17k, but I'm not so sure they're worth the added cost over Canadian Solar, perhaps. Looking at pole mounted so I can do sun tracking. Tesla claims for 4 bedroom house 3 powerwalls would be sufficient. They have 6kW inverters built in. Those are about $18k for the three (not installed). 

We're working to finalize our plans now. It probably would be smart to get someone to look at it to estimate the hvac size now too.


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## ForestToFarm (Feb 28, 2016)

A little food for thought.

The more you spend on insulation the less heat and A/C you will need. 2x6 walls will allow for better R value. High density insulation or possibly spray foamed walls and rafter areas would give a high R value. Anything you do to increase R value will decrees the size of heat and A/C needed and that translates into a lower cost Solar system due to a reduced overall load.

It does cost a lot to cool a home here in SC during hot weather. However if you go the Geothermal rout as you have suggested the ground temperature is like around 60 degrees here so the A/C unit will take far less energy to covert 60 degree ground temps to A/c for your home than 95+ degree temps of outside air during hot spells. geothermal also helps in a big way when heating your home. its easier to convert 60 degree ground temps to heat a home than it is to convert 32 degree or lower air temps in the winter. So again as with having good insulation you can reduce your overall load even more by going Geothermal.

The lower your load is the less panels you need and the less battery backup system you will need. So money spent on an efficient system reduces solar costs.

Another thing you can do to help reduce the heating and cooling load is to install the foil backed roofing deck which holds heat in in the winter and repels heat in the summer or at least that is what they claim. People I know who have used these products claim it really helps especially for home with a second story with sloped ceilings that rafters form a roof support on top and sheet rock on the bottom.

The more you spend on efficiency the less solar you are going to need. That money spent on things like highly efficient insulation (and other stuff) will last the life of your home and continually pay you back over time.

Terry


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## chsdiyer (Feb 18, 2017)

Thanks! I've seen y'alls blog/videos. Cool stuff. I was watching about the time I started clearing my land with a pick ax. I had moved on from a chain saw since we kept stumbling over all the stumps left behind (our land is way more densely packed with trees/brush). Most of it a pick ax could uproot, however, every Saturday I would think...how dumb am I, why don't I just rent an excavator. Yet by the next Thursday I'd be telling my wife...ah it's not that bad, we can get it done in a few more weekends. Good grief, glad I finally got a dozer. 

I was just thinking to my self tonight...I wonder how much more expensive it would be to build with 2x8 walls? I'm thinking more so that I'll do spray foam in the attic. In the walls I was looking at spider insulation. I think the guy i mentioned above with the 3400sqft home was telling me he had that foil board installed on his roof under his 5V metal roof. He said he can go in his attic in the summer without any trouble. We used to have a metal roof on our old house that was from the 1830s and you sure couldn't go up there in the summer. 

We're going to try to insulate well and get the best doors/windows we can afford. Though all this other stuff is going to eat our budget. We'll probably be doing more of the build ourselves than we had hoped.


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

Talk to the nephew she hates about buying the land from you just to spite her, then find a different piece of land. No doubt you are going to have issues with her as long as she's alive. Might be worth it just to get rid of the headaches.


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## chsdiyer (Feb 18, 2017)

So she's always been hesitant to help me she said because she's convinced the nephew is going to develop his land and his uncles (her brother) and she hopes to make that impossible for him. He did offer to trade land with me recently but it was not a step up. He doesn't seem to care since he has full rights to his uncle's property which bypasses her. So she's trying to stick it to him, but he's not affected by it, we are. I don't think she has anything against us really. He has no interest in buying our land or he likely would have bought it when it was on the market. For us, the worst part is, we somewhat overpaid for it considering the issues, but it's the only property we've really liked in years of looking and it's really close to work. Worst case we hold on to it and let it appreciate in value. If prices get back to where they were in 2007 we'd do well. Housing prices have, land prices in the area have not.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Call power company they want your business. I had same problem. Power company went underground andthe problem people covered the cost


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

How far do you have to run a line from road (not driveway)?
I like Forcast's idea....if you own the driveway and the run is reasonable. Probably pretty cheap to run underground if you have soil. It is when you get to long lengths, you need a transformer at both ends (Vd) so they can bump up line voltage. Seems some power companies will cover some/all costs (not mine). 

Just happened to notice Tesla came out with a bigger home powerpack (double the size, same cost). 

ForesttoFarm had some great ideas...insulation drops energy usage. I am going a tad crazy on my build (aka bunker), with ICF R20 main floor, 6" of korolite type 2 under slab, exterior 2" xps R10 foam on 2nd floor, in addition to R22 Roxul in cavities (both floors). 
On paper, R32 (min) - R50 (max) walls and roof, R24 floor. 
The thermal mass of concrete main floor I've noticed already...cooler inside bunker on hot summer days...
One plus folks may not consider is noise suppression...I chat with BI in my bunker and our voices bounce off concrete floor then disappear into ICF walls...really odd, as we hear each other well as sound bounces off floor, then it just dies. 
Looking forward to getting windows/doors installed to see how well it kills outside noise.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

chsdiyer said:


> Thanks! I've seen y'alls blog/videos. Cool stuff. I was watching about the time I started clearing my land with a pick ax. I had moved on from a chain saw since we kept stumbling over all the stumps left behind (our land is way more densely packed with trees/brush). Most of it a pick ax could uproot, however, every Saturday I would think...how dumb am I, why don't I just rent an excavator. Yet by the next Thursday I'd be telling my wife...ah it's not that bad, we can get it done in a few more weekends. Good grief, glad I finally got a dozer.
> 
> I was just thinking to my self tonight...I wonder how much more expensive it would be to build with 2x8 walls? I'm thinking more so that I'll do spray foam in the attic. In the walls I was looking at spider insulation. I think the guy i mentioned above with the 3400sqft home was telling me he had that foil board installed on his roof under his 5V metal roof. He said he can go in his attic in the summer without any trouble. We used to have a metal roof on our old house that was from the 1830s and you sure couldn't go up there in the summer.
> 
> We're going to try to insulate well and get the best doors/windows we can afford. Though all this other stuff is going to eat our budget. We'll probably be doing more of the build ourselves than we had hoped.


Probably not a huge difference in cost over 2x6 walls...as of couple of days ago I got some 2x8's for blocking, and noticed they were not all that expensive (prices jumped going to 2x10). The real problem is getting a thermal break from outside to inside. The studs are the problem. So, many folks will put on a layer of foam on outside. In arctic areas, they will stagger two 2x6 walls. I just know from memory that 2x6 with roxul is R22 vs R28 for 2x8 walls. 

Had a look at spider insulation...very interesting. Fiber glass insulation was on it's last legs up here, as most folks use Roxul. A lot of benefits with roxul. Spray fiber glass with binder...hmmm. Looks compelling...still leery of fiber glass (safety issues working with it). I wonder how fire/rodent/mold resistant it is? Good R value per inch. I am a roxul convert, but I like the spray aspect, as it leaves no gaps. Roxul does place well, but nothing would beat a spray. 

Yeah, our local building inspector is on a crusade (just kidding in case he reads this..lol) about roof deck ventilation...having enough venting between metal/shingle and roof deck (or below it). Steve posted some pics on my homestead build thread of his roof and the measures he took to ensure good ventilation so the roof doesn't heat up house (he has lots of ventilation with little fear of wind-washing). My area doesn't see the heat his does, and my roof is facing north, but I will have strapping to raise the roof deck away from insulation and allow good ventilation.
Difference being mine will vent under roof deck. I have a 'belief' that having heavy gauge metal right on ply (with a thick underlay) will dampen noise more than being suspended by strapping...seismic background.


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## chsdiyer (Feb 18, 2017)

Forecast - my property is parallel with the neighbors and the road runs across the top. Her deed says she doesn't own the road but everyone acts like she does. The $6500 cost for power was running underground. Neither that nor anything we've done to try and please this person has made a difference. Power to our property is about a 400ft run to the nearest power pole. I've heard EVERYTHING on how to get power to the property and get around her, but the power company wont hear any of it. They've made it very clear, unless she signs off to let them on her property, they wont help. The even said there was a guy in a similar situation caught in a different family feud who built his house only to find they couldn't get him power. He's been on a generator. I have a friend in a electric coop, he had to run 900ft for his house and he dug the trench himself, they did his run for free. Not so much luck here.

Wow melli sounds like you are building a bunker. Are you in the middle of building now? Do you have a page documenting it?


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Do you really want her as a neighbor? If she's this bad over power just imagine what will come up in the future. Sell and find a better place.

WWW


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## chsdiyer (Feb 18, 2017)

She's not really a neighbor. She doesn't live on her property, it's vacant land. On the other side of her is a small 10 lot subdivision. After that she has another parcel that she did the same thing to that developer. However he was able to get power in from the property he owned above it and once he had power, there were no more issues. I don't think she's actually a mean person, i'm just caught in a mess of her trying to get back at her nephew.

Sorry this thread got caught up in the drama of the situation. My intent wasn't to try to resolve that situation, but to understand if you can make off grid work in a sizeable home and be comfortable.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

I will chime in here and say that you really need to consider your power usage and what is needed, wanted and would "like to have". Then understand that it is far cheaper to reduce & conserve power than it is to generate & provide a high level of power.

1 Example which is a perfect description is: Water Tank ! Heating & keeping a tank hot for "stand-by" is no different than leaving you car idling in the driveway all day & night because you might want to go for a drive ! Every hour it will cycle, heat the elements to maintain temp... On Demand only runs when it's called for, can be electric (still expensive) or LPG / Natural Gas - Solar Option also exist.

You mention your plumber tells you that you need a 240v deep well pump... OK my well is 250' deep and I use a Grundfos SQ-5 120v Soft Start pump which IS off-grid / battery friendly and it does 50 PSI with no issues, feeding my 50gal Pressure tank. 

NOTE that ANYTHING which is "Resistance based" is the worst for electrical loads... That means anything that has a heating element, coil or heavy start loads = badness. Electric Stove running on an off-grid battery system is the height of idiocy. I KNOW YOU ARE NOT INTENDING THAT but putting it out there as an example. WHY? Because I actually just had that talk with a local who is fed up with his Power Bills and wants to go off-grid but not change anything... 240V Stove, dryer, electric furnace, big central AC etc... He does not have enough land & cash to make that happen and he will not alter his habits. Some people - seriously !

Lastly & more importantly... current high end panels are averaging 350w, some 425-450's are out and by end of year 500w panels are expected... The performance & efficiency is also increasing as expected. Batteries are evolving very quickly and that will continue a rapid pace of change / evolution. The BUG in the Pudding, is the diversity as too many people think in terms of "one solution to fit all instances" and that is incorrect, all eggs in one basket = risk & liability... What makes a good Home Battery Bank does not mean it's good for EV Cars or for Grid Storage and visa versa. Again, look at what you use, how much you use, determine if 240v appliances is required or optional, you might be shocked on the answer.

Fuels like Wood, Pellets, Biogas (harvested methane from your own waste can fuel LPG appliances), LPG which won't sour (good for a backup standby generator) and of course passive house design and maximizing the solar gain potentials are all wins if thought out & considered.

EDIT - PS: I often point out some really obvious things, not to insult or anything negative BUT rather to highlight many things that people forget to consider because it's something they never thought about... Like people thinking hot water tank... always had a water tank heater, my dad, grandpa etc... no thinking just a "default"... I live by a RULE OF THREE - Triple redundancy, 3 ways to heat, 3 ways to cool, 3 ways to get my water, 3 ways to generate power, 3 ways to cook food... and I do it as a matter of course, in fact majority of my plans, builds etc all include such provisions and multi-capable devices... I have Radiant Floor heat, Wood Stove (which has a cooktop I can pop on if needed) and kerosene heater as well...


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

chsdiyer said:


> Forecast - my property is parallel with the neighbors and the road runs across the top. Her deed says she doesn't own the road but everyone acts like she does. The $6500 cost for power was running underground. Neither that nor anything we've done to try and please this person has made a difference. Power to our property is about a 400ft run to the nearest power pole. I've heard EVERYTHING on how to get power to the property and get around her, but the power company wont hear any of it. They've made it very clear, unless she signs off to let them on her property, they wont help. The even said there was a guy in a similar situation caught in a different family feud who built his house only to find they couldn't get him power. He's been on a generator. I have a friend in a electric coop, he had to run 900ft for his house and he dug the trench himself, they did his run for free. Not so much luck here.
> 
> Wow melli sounds like you are building a bunker. Are you in the middle of building now? Do you have a page documenting it?


https://www.homesteadingtoday.com/t...oast-of-canada-bc-from-scratch.553337/page-18

Last page...if you want to see beginning, you have to go back through my ramblings a bit...lol
Lots of pics though...

So, you don't own driveway, according to utility company? Yet, your title shows it?


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

I'd seriously consider selling the property and looking for something else. You are going to be miserable without a reliable source of electricity. 

Would guess you will need to spend at least $100K to set up a solar system with battery back up sufficient to meet your needs. I got a quote to set up a system to generate power to cover 100% of my needs (1500 SF house and several outbuildings, 200 amp service). System had no batteries for storage and it produced excess during sunshine that would be sold on the grid to make up for what I had to pay the electric company for after dark and dark day usage, price tag was $70K.

A generator would be cheaper and more reliable, but you will have the ongoing fuel expense.


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## In The Woods (Apr 27, 2017)

I am also starting to think it might be better to sell out to the nephew and be done before you spend any money. Sounds like you are getting into the middle of a long term family fued. Your electricity issue may just be the beginning of a total nightmare.


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## chsdiyer (Feb 18, 2017)

Fishindude said:


> I'd seriously consider selling the property and looking for something else. You are going to be miserable without a reliable source of electricity.
> 
> Would guess you will need to spend at least $100K to set up a solar system with battery back up sufficient to meet your needs. I got a quote to set up a system to generate power to cover 100% of my needs (1500 SF house and several outbuildings, 200 amp service). System had no batteries for storage and it produced excess during sunshine that would be sold on the grid to make up for what I had to pay the electric company for after dark and dark day usage, price tag was $70K.
> 
> A generator would be cheaper and more reliable, but you will have the ongoing fuel expense.


That's an insane price tag! I have a friend here who had a system installed on his house which is over 3000sqft. His system is roughly 7.5kW array, no battery. He had it professionally installed and it cost him 27k before rebates. He is grid tied but pretty much breaks even every day. I'm looking at doing a smaller house, twice the solar array size and install my self. I can't imagine how that would come anywhere near 100k.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

You NEED to go get estimates on you prospective power usage, size the system....and get quotes.
Then you will know and make you decision.

All the drama in the world will not change this....


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## chsdiyer (Feb 18, 2017)

Hunter, you are correct and in my time spent gathering data from various peoples houses (new energy constructed homes, solar powered homes, big homes, small homes, etc) in the area for power usage and looking at low power options for HVAC/water heating/well pumps, etc I thought i would also come to the forum and ask for wisdom from those who have ventured into the world of off grid to see what the limitations are when living that lifestyle. To learn, get advice and factor that into my planing so i can get estimations based on the approach I take. Or to learn that it's just not for us because you can only live in a yurt up north off grid (which I don't believe the case). i can get all the estimates/quotes in the world, but if I'm getting it based on the use of appliances that would be foolish in this application, it would be time wasted. I figured I'd try to learn, build the best plan, then get estimates.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

If you have 50 ft road easement, why can't the electric company run an easement parallel with, and using part of the road? My easement was only 30 ft. 
On one piece of land, I owned to the middle of the road, and the electric poles ran down my side of the road.

Yes, road easements are different than utility easements, but why can't they overlap??


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

I would sell seems no point in investing any money.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

About those 2x6 walls...I ran that question by a professional architect once and his advice to me is that by caulking carefully between the studs and the sheathing you will gain significantly more than by going to 2x6 walls. My thought is that doing both sounds like a good idea.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

chsdiyer said:


> Hunter, you are correct and in my time spent gathering data from various peoples houses (new energy constructed homes, solar powered homes, big homes, small homes, etc) in the area for power usage and looking at low power options for HVAC/water heating/well pumps, etc I thought i would also come to the forum and ask for wisdom from those who have ventured into the world of off grid to see what the limitations are when living that lifestyle. To learn, get advice and factor that into my planing so i can get estimations based on the approach I take. Or to learn that it's just not for us because you can only live in a yurt up north off grid (which I don't believe the case). i can get all the estimates/quotes in the world, but if I'm getting it based on the use of appliances that would be foolish in this application, it would be time wasted. I figured I'd try to learn, build the best plan, then get estimates.


So far this has all been speculation based on maybe this, maybe that, have a problem this, and so forth.
Learning... is to take advice that has been freely given...and proceed.
Hashing over the same ground is counter productive.....

So I wish you all the best of luck....
You got screwed...and hopefully you can come out OK.
I have nothing more to add.


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## Farmerjack41 (Jun 6, 2017)

In the Washington state, there is no question, 2 X 6 walls are required. If you build a well house, it has to meet residental requirements for insulation, so also must be 2 X 6 walls. No matter the size. Has to be a concrete floor, of a certain thickness, with rebar in the footings. Most people can heat one with a light bulb.


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## ForestToFarm (Feb 28, 2016)

So to address the question you asked and get this thread back on track.

Something I am considering is encapsulating the crawl space. Its where you seal off the entire crawl space from the outside by installing a ground cover and then also wrapping the walls and pillars with it. The vents are closed off and sealed over as well. Then all the joints between these sheets of moisture proof barrier are sealed together by a durable tape product. Basically you seal the crawl space off and then install a dehumidifier down there to remove any moisture that may accumulate over time.

If you think about it your crawl space normally takes on close to the same temperature as the outside air temps. However when you encapsulate the crawl space you now have a crawl space that stays more in line with what the house temps are. We worked on a house a few years ago in NC that had this type system installed. It was about 20 degrees F outside but the crawl space was at about 60 or better. That could greatly reduce your heating load.

You could put the dehumidifier on a timer so it only runs during the day when the sun is out and your solar panels are at top production.

A huge advantage to doing this type system is you greatly improve the air quality in your home. Under normal conditions without encapsulation most homes have a damp musty mildewy moldy crawl space which makes for bad air quality. At least some of that nasty air generally makes its way into your home, especially if your heat system is in the crawl space.

Terry


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## chsdiyer (Feb 18, 2017)

Thanks for the feedback. We'll definitely be doing 2x6 construction and around here, they caulk or spray foam ever joint where the stud and sheathing meet and every joint between sheathing boards. If we're doing spray spider insulation, I'm not sure if that's still necessary but It can't hurt. Either way it seems to make a difference to do it. 

Good point on the crawl space Terry. Our last house was 1830 construction on an open crawl space. I spent may days under there, and in the summer it was actually quite nice. Some how I always seemed to time it where I'd be in the attic in the summer and the crawl space in the winter. Because it was open to ventilate we didn't have a moisture problem and we didn't have the option to close it up, but it definitely had a musty smell down there which at times you could smell in the house. My wife actually likes the smell. Back in those days they built the walls to allow the crawlspace air to flow up through them to the attic. They also didn't believe in sub-flooring so in the winter, we didn't walk around bare foot too much...the wood floor would be close to the outside temperature. I definitely like the idea of having the crawl space sealed though. For energy reasons, but also because it would hopefully keep snakes out. We're fortunately not in a flood zone so it shouldn't be a problem to build it enclosed. 

I think we are now:
-Strongly considering geothermal. Possibly solar powered mini-splits
-Propane tankless water heater, or make use of some type of combination geothermal water heating
-Propane fireplace. I'm going to look into wood burning, but not sure I want the hassle and safety precautions.. Also with out design, we'd have trouble with the chimney.
-2x6 framed with joints caulked/foamed and spider foam. Preferably do a metal roof with reflective roof panels. If too expensive, regular roof with spray foamed attic. 
-Built on enclosed crawl space
-Need to plant some trees asap for future shade.
-12 to 15kW solar array with 40kWh Lithium backup (hopefully powerwall - still need to call for more info, but that seems cheaper than the lead acid alternative) and a 6-8kW propane generator. Possibly smaller if we can make geothermal hvac work. Hope to have majority solar pole mounted with sun tracking.
-Looking to get alternative well pump option - possibly Grundfos SQFlex
-Propane range/possibly propane dryer - i've heard gas dryers make your clothes smell
-Probably conventional fridge/freezer but most energy efficient one I can find. 
-Build giant hampster-wheel power generator for my kids
I think spring and fall will be easy to manage, July/August may be a challenge but if geothermal can reduce our energy consumption we'll be fine. Either way, if the sun is out enough to make it hot, the solar will produce enough to run even a conventional unit. Our old house was so drafty and for years we had really bad heat pumps that couldn't cool the air at all so we were used to having the AC around 86 upstairs. Not the most comfortable, but we made it work.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

@OP in ref ForestToFarm post, google "Conditioned Crawl Space" for more details. It is Code Required here now if you are building with a crawl space. It does make a big difference in humidity, temperature management and overall building health (mould, mildew etc).


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

chsdiyer said:


> -Build giant hampster-wheel power generator for my kids
> ...............


That one is a winner. When sun sets or cloud passes overhead, it is their cue to start running....


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

chsdiyer said:


> Thanks for the feedback. We'll definitely be doing 2x6 construction and around here, they caulk or spray foam ever joint where the stud and sheathing meet and every joint between sheathing boards. If we're doing spray spider insulation, I'm not sure if that's still necessary but It can't hurt. Either way it seems to make a difference to do it.
> 
> Good point on the crawl space Terry. Our last house was 1830 construction on an open crawl space. I spent may days under there, and in the summer it was actually quite nice. Some how I always seemed to time it where I'd be in the attic in the summer and the crawl space in the winter. Because it was open to ventilate we didn't have a moisture problem and we didn't have the option to close it up, but it definitely had a musty smell down there which at times you could smell in the house. My wife actually likes the smell. Back in those days they built the walls to allow the crawlspace air to flow up through them to the attic. They also didn't believe in sub-flooring so in the winter, we didn't walk around bare foot too much...the wood floor would be close to the outside temperature. I definitely like the idea of having the crawl space sealed though. For energy reasons, but also because it would hopefully keep snakes out. We're fortunately not in a flood zone so it shouldn't be a problem to build it enclosed.
> 
> ...


A couple thoughts: I don't think a generator that size will pull your 220 well pump...? And I think you might be in for some surprises on your solar project and the amount of energy you will ACTUALLY be harvesting as opposed to the amount of energy your system is rated to harvest at optimum conditions. Still, if you are into conserving electricity it's a workable plan!


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## ForestToFarm (Feb 28, 2016)

Refrigerator/freezer options.

If you buy a quality chest freezer and set the temp up above freezing you can use it as a refrigerator that may be more efficient than a conventional refrigerator. Heat rises and cold air falls. Every time you open your conventional side by side refrigerator/freezer the cold air falls to the floor and the heat in the house fills the refrigerator. Then you have to cool all that warmer air.

With the chest freezer and chest freezer set above 32 to adapt it for refrigeration when you open either of them the cold air will hardly move at all because it is heavier than the room air temps of your house and it is contained by the side walls of the unit so in a long run these chest units would be much more efficient in my opinion. Also if you look at the amps used on a chest freezer they are generally a good bit less than that of a conventional up right side by side. At least from my experience.

Terry


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Double wall 2x4 construction is inexpensive , perhaps even more so that single wall. 
I'd give that some thought. 
I'd also concider. Cooling by ground air tubes. 

Or perhaps if you showed up with a completed contract that prohibited power from your land going to the nephew and. Some cash she would sighn off on it. 
How far is it from your house site along the dive to power ?


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