# Overweight Welsh/Hackney Pony Question?



## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

Farrier came over 2 days ago, Trimmed 2 horses and my pony.
said the pony is overweight, and to stop feeding her Grain.
I give her 1 cup of complete 12 for seniors in the AM.
1 Cup in the PM.
I also give her MSM as she's 23 yrs old, with her grain. Once a day.
Is this to much grain?
And if I wean her off I still need to get her the MSM for joints.
Any tips would be grateful!
Thanks Terry


----------



## billinwv (Sep 27, 2013)

My Dartmoors get no grain, even the 24 year old. They get good quality grass only hay. No alfalfa or clover. Free choice Hi mag. with selenium mineral. You should be able to get her to eat her msm with a few tablespoons of sweet feed. My biggest problem is spring grass and weight gain. I have to dry-lot 8 hrs. or so a day or use grazing muzzle.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I doubt if a couple cups of grain are making her fat, unless they're the size of my coffee cup but in my opinion, if she's 23 and in good condition but not at risk for founder, I don't think I'd get too excited.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I couldn't find anything on the grain source you mention. What is its ingredients? Also what other feed does she get? 
Unlike some others the words fat and pony in the same sentence scares me. Did he see any signs of founder ?


----------



## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

If her health is otherwise ok and she's just a little pudgy, why not cut her down to 1 grain feeding a day or if you don't want to make her feel slighted because the other 2 eat twice then cut her down to 1/2 cup each feeding. You could always pick up her exercise regimen a notch too.


----------



## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

If you are really using a measuring cup, then it's not really the grain that is making her fat (you're talking about maybe a few hundred calories tops?) Although, if you are only feeding two cups per day you might be better to feed something like a ration balancer like Nutrena Empower Balance that is designed to feed in such small quantities (then gives a full supply of minerals).

The vast majority of her calories are probably coming from her hay/pasture. If you can cut that back a little, that's probably better. If she eats in a group, however, it might not be possible. In that case...you can either increase exercise a little...of if she's retired just keep an eye on her that she doesn't start gaining more. (Or, that you are having other issues -- laminitis, etc....as they can also be signs of other issues like Cushings or Insulin Resistance.)


----------



## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

Thing is, she probably IS at risk for founder, which is why the farrier mentioned it in the first place. They can see subtle changes in the hooves that we never notice, and certainly don't see any sign of around the barnyard.

Just cut her back as much as possible - a cup of senior isn't going to hurt. No doubt she's one that gets fat on air. I'd be sure of no legumes/clover/alfalfa EVER. Keeping her off pasture grass part of the day and feeding simple grass hay is likely the best solution - along with some exercise.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Alder said:


> Thing is, she probably IS at risk for founder, which is why the farrier mentioned it in the first place. They can see subtle changes in the hooves that we never notice, and certainly don't see any sign of around the barnyard.
> 
> 
> 
> Just cut her back as much as possible - a cup of senior isn't going to hurt. No doubt she's one that gets fat on air. I'd be sure of no legumes/clover/alfalfa EVER. Keeping her off pasture grass part of the day and feeding simple grass hay is likely the best solution - along with some exercise.



If she's at risk for founder, it's not the cup of grain that's causing it and it likely is a matter of being an easy keeper. She has some aches that are likely restricting her activity and I'm more inclined to think that's the cause of the weight problem. 

At that age, I like to see them a bit chubby going into winter because our winters are harsh and it doesn't take much for seniors to lose condition fast and it's not easy to put weight back on.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

wr said:


> If she's at risk for founder, it's not the cup of grain that's causing it and it likely is a matter of being an easy keeper. She has some aches that are likely restricting her activity and I'm more inclined to think that's the cause of the weight problem.
> 
> At that age, I like to see them a bit chubby going into winter because our winters are harsh and it doesn't take much for seniors to lose condition fast and it's not easy to put weight back on.


I have no idea whether it is true for this girl or not but I did have one full size horse who was so inclined to laminitis that a single flake of alfalfa fed three days in a row caused him to be gimpy. He went through a couple of years of starting to get better then getting suddenly worse when one of the many xrays by a new vet he got trying to help him showed his white line stretched. The university vet clinic diagnosed chronic laminitis.
I restricted his feed to grass hay with a cup of whole oats (and he was 16'3") and he stopped being lame. Not arthritis at all. And for the rest of his life, my signal that I better watch him was when I stood back and said to myself "he's looking good." That mean fatter and bad news.
This was the only horse I ever had who was that sensitive but I have wondered how many other horses might have had such a problem because it went unrecognized by two vets until a third sent the xrays off to Davis for evaluation. They were the first to see it despite the horse having had a number of previous xrays.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

where I want to said:


> I have no idea whether it is true for this girl or not but I did have one full size horse who was so inclined to laminitis that a single flake of alfalfa fed three days in a row caused him to be gimpy. He went through a couple of years of starting to get better then getting suddenly worse when one of the many xrays by a new vet he got trying to help him showed his white line stretched. The university vet clinic diagnosed chronic laminitis.
> I restricted his feed to grass hay with a cup of whole oats (and he was 16'3") and he stopped being lame. Not arthritis at all. And for the rest of his life, my signal that I better watch him was when I stood back and said to myself "he's looking good." That mean fatter and bad news.
> This was the only horse I ever had who was that sensitive but I have wondered how many other horses might have had such a problem because it went unrecognized by two vets until a third sent the xrays off to Davis for evaluation. They were the first to see it despite the horse having had a number of previous xrays.


While I don't disagree with you at all and have known a few similar cases, my comments were based on the age of the horse, the fact that she's being treated for joint discomfort, I would give assume that this is based on discussion between her and her vet. 

I'm not sure where this person is located but I can promise you that in my climate, if an older horse loses condition, it's extremely difficult to resolve at -40 so I'd rather see them a bit pump than just right. 

I might be as off the mark as you are but I'm guessing that if you're looking at the theory behind this old gal being chubby, it has less to do with 2 cups of commercial feed (assuming that they aren't the size of my coffee cup) and more to do with inactivity and being an easy keeper. 

Cut out the grain is a usual first assumption when a horse is chubby but not always the problem. Perhaps she can keep her 2 cups a day if she gets a bit more exercise.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

wr said:


> While I don't disagree with you at all and have known a few similar cases, my comments were based on the age of the horse, the fact that she's being treated for joint discomfort, I would give assume that this is based on discussion between her and her vet.
> 
> I'm not sure where this person is located but I can promise you that in my climate, if an older horse loses condition, it's extremely difficult to resolve at -40 so I'd rather see them a bit pump than just right.
> 
> ...


That was why I asked if the farrier saw any signs of laminitis.


----------



## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Some equine do not need grain. Easy keepers get fat on hay. Probably does not need the grain, but could use some exercise. You can keep the hay at one end and water at the other. Do something to get this old girl moving. She needs movement to improve the health of her joints and heart.


----------



## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Maura said:


> Some equine do not need grain. Easy keepers get fat on hay. Probably does not need the grain, but could use some exercise. You can keep the hay at one end and water at the other. Do something to get this old girl moving. She needs movement to improve the health of her joints and heart.


Yes, but tough to get supplements into most horses without something to put it in. Separating hay and water is a good idea to keep them moving, though - and/or putting out small piles of hay far away from each other to keep them moving around. Obviously if on pasture, this isn't as easy.

I'd be looking to assess the hay situation and see whether it's reasonable to cut that back a little.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

offthegrid said:


> Yes, but tough to get supplements into most horses without something to put it in. Separating hay and water is a good idea to keep them moving, though - and/or putting out small piles of hay far away from each other to keep them moving around. Obviously if on pasture, this isn't as easy.
> 
> I'd be looking to assess the hay situation and see whether it's reasonable to cut that back a little.


There is no mention of hay and no location so we don't have enough information to know if the horse is on hay, grass or cured grass and I guess logically, that also means we don't know how much area the horse has to increase exercise.


----------



## Horseyrider (Aug 8, 2010)

In addition, it's actually incorrect to refer to most senior feeds as grain. Grain is commonly oats, corn, barley, or some combination thereof with added soybean meal to increase protein and molasses for palatability. Senior feeds are generally complete feeds which contain forage, and no other forage is necessary in the diet when fed in large enough quantities.

I have an old pony that has been previously laminitic. His feet are great; no separation or rotation. Still, those that are previously foundered have a greater chance of foundering again, so we don't allow fresh forage ever. His hay is a timothy/orchardgrass/alfalfa blend, heavier on the grass, third cutting. The stage of maturity at the time of harvest greatly affects the nutritional value, and the amount of nutrients that are bioavailable. He's in perfect flesh at 30 to 40 years old.

Sometimes, when I get horses that are unusually easy keepers or actually overweight, I intentionally select and feed what I call "diet hay." This is a hay that is clean, free of weeds and mold, but was harvested either at first cutting, or later in the plant's maturity. It's coarser, might have some seed heads, and much of the fiber is not cellulose (which horses can digest), but hemi-cellulose and lignin (which passes right through). It gives a horse chew time and fills them without adding too many calories.

BTW, if your critters are fed together in a drylot situation, you might need to pull your pony aside twice a day to feed separately. Depending on the politics of the herd, some individuals get more than their share.

Be careful with reducing rations in ponies. They're prone to something called hyperlipemia, where rapid or radical reductions cause metabolic changes where fats to spill into the blood. This can be life threatening, although you might not notice it happening except by inappetance. 

Horses and ponies require about 2-2.5% of their body weight in feed (forage plus grain, if fed) each day. You can get an idea of what your pony's caloric needs would be by estimating his normal weight, and feeding 2% by weight of his body weight. For example, a five hundred pound pony would require no more than ten pounds of hay, or about two good flakes, in a whole day. If your pony is grossly obese, you might add a half of a flake at noon and make three meals a day until some weight loss happens. Then you can reduce the ration further, and/or gently increase exercise.

If the pony you're referring to was in my care, I would try and find some plain pelleted timothy (Standlee makes some, as do others) and feed as little as possible to hold up the MSM. MSM is a great supplement for the seniors, and is actually a sulfur derivative of DMSO. It's a very benign supplement that reduces pain through anti-inflammatory action. If you feed MSM once a day, I think I'd just add a sprinkle to this pony's bucket when it's the non-supplement feeding, to keep him happy and coming in with the others. I'm often amazed at how ponies receive their rations, always grateful for their little handful in spite of the big horses getting huge piles.

It's nice to read about someone who is looking for information so they can make decisions that work well with their critters, facility, and management style. You have a lucky pony.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I have an older butterball horse who gets 2 oz of a supplement powder each feeding. To make sure she actually doesn't leave it in the bottom of the bucket, I put enough water over the hay pellets and by the time I get to her, it's basically a mash with the powder mixed in.


----------



## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

wr said:


> There is no mention of hay and no location so we don't have enough information to know if the horse is on hay, grass or cured grass and I guess logically, that also means we don't know how much area the horse has to increase exercise.


I agree. What to do next depends a lot on what else is being fed and how. Obviously if we learned that this pony was on pasture 24/7 we might suggest a dry lot for part of the day. If her head is stuck in a round bale all day long, it would also be reasonable to suggest a dry lot, or switch to squares and ration them a little.


----------



## Stonybrook (Sep 22, 2007)

Having had an "easy keeper" part welsh pony who was fat and a part arab that had metabolic issues, I have an opinion. If she is a chunky monkey, she is getting more food of whatever source than she needs. And I will bet that whatever feed you are giving her is not low starch and low carbohydrate. Grass has sugar in it and most horse feed has more sugar in it or carbs, which turn to sugar, than a pony needs. Most ponies are prone to founder. You really don't want to go there if you can prevent it. If you feel you have to feed her some "grain" you might be able get a low starch, low carb feed (yes, they are out there) and cut back on what you give her of even that. Maybe half a cup will be sufficient. I would also restrict her access to grass, especially in the spring and fall when the grass is extra high in sugar. Oh, and it would be better for her to go out in the early morning than late in the day because there is more sugar in grass later in the day because of the sun. I would do these things to prevent a problem. If you get a laminitis or founder situation going it is not fun, and it can be prevented. I would be listening to your farrier.


----------



## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

I had a Shetland/ Welsh pony and he was getting fat on air~!
He was such a easy keeper that I fed him such a small 'flake' of hay I could not even 'feel' the weight of it. And all he got was a handful of grain as a treat.
Now he was eating a very high in protein alfalfa hay, VERY high in protein. Like in th mid 20's in protein.
This was in AZ. I was the only person that fed him, I had to put to a stop some kids were feeding him carrots even this was at a boarding stable. I lived on the premises. 
I did not know he was lame till I got back here to WI and went through a cold winter.
He went so lame he could not even stand to eat~!!
Took him to my vet he took radio grapes of his feet and found that in both feet the coin bone had rotated. 
But him on BUTE with only grass hay and he was then only on R & R for the rest of his life.
The vet who was a personal friend told me what a 'easy keeper' really was.
A horse or pony that is a easy keeper, utilizes its feed so completely that just about 100% of the protein sugars etc, are digested. When that happens unless that horse or pony is worked every day they get FAT. And that is not good. the ponies store that fat in most cases in the neck area and if not corrected the neck fat can actually Fall Over to the side. (Fallen Crest) And have all sorts of problems in the feet one is founder. Once that coin bone is rotated there isn;t much that can be done.
Get that older pony OFF GRAIN~! If you must get minerals fed just do it in power form and only in a very SMALL amount of grain. to this cup stuff.
Get only Grass hay and feed on a DRY LOT~!
I talk from personal experience, founder is not a good thing for the pony to go through and is heart breaking for the owner as well;.


----------



## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

Sorry I haven't got back on this, been working OT.
I built a large bale feeder from some pics I saw on this forum. They have free feed.
I'm in central Illinois and it gets cold.
The feed is Agrimaster complete 12 senior horse feed from Farm & Fleet
I'm using a 1 cup measuring cup. (1) in the AM. (1) had nite.
And the areana is so bumpy from the horse hooves, and frozen, running her is out for now.
The REASON I had the farrier out is she has been limping on her front right. Got her nails trimmed and back on MSM. Seems to help.
Trying to figure out how to separate her from the large bale feeder.
I get 800 lbs of 3x3x8' bales of hay. Great stuff, horses love it. I've bought so many other bales from other farmers and its like they baled out in the woods.
But I also got a new paint shes a mare also, and they've been running like MAD figuring pecking order.
Farrier said maybe she hurt herself, but said to stop the grain (pellets), so thats why I've come to you guys for help.
She will be on a grazing muzzle this spring.
Thanks Terry


----------



## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

TerryR said:


> Sorry I haven't got back on this, been working OT.
> I built a large bale feeder from some pics I saw on this forum. They have free feed.
> I'm in central Illinois and it gets cold.
> The feed is Agrimaster complete 12 senior horse feed from Farm & Fleet
> ...


Have you felt her legs to see if there is an enlarged tendon or muscle? If they have been hard at it, I can well imagine a strained or pulled tendon/muscle issue rather than a laminitis issue, but I am not there to see for myself so can't say for sure. Have you tried a gram of bute for a couple of days to see if it is actually hoof related or if it is a strain of some sort? I would try it, or something similar, and see if that helps. If so, you can probably rule out hoof issues. 

Just a thought....hope it helps.


----------



## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

aoconnor1 said:


> Have you felt her legs to see if there is an enlarged tendon or muscle? If they have been hard at it, I can well imagine a strained or pulled tendon/muscle issue rather than a laminitis issue, but I am not there to see for myself so can't say for sure. Have you tried a gram of bute for a couple of days to see if it is actually hoof related or if it is a strain of some sort? I would try it, or something similar, and see if that helps. If so, you can probably rule out hoof issues.
> 
> Just a thought....hope it helps.


Thanks! I forgot to ad the farrier felt her legs, and checked for heat in the limped foot. Said she thought they felt OK to her. Said her hooves needed trimmed for sure. And they DO look so much better. Amazing how some horses nails grow faster than others. Was just trying to make a combo trim. Cuts down on cost.
But she said overall try to get some weight off it'll help her legs, joints etc.
I was concerned Laminitis was setting in.
When my wife and I ride this spring, we will pony her just to exercise her also.


----------



## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

What's in the hay? If it's anything but grass/timothy (has alfalfa or clover) the hay is a bigger problem than the pellets.

The senior pellets that I feed (Nutrena Safe Choice) have a high fat content, but a lower sugar/carb content. My vet says that the Senior feeds do not usually promote laminitis. My Senior brand can be fed as a complete diet (no other feed including hay) for horses with bad teeth, and those with metabolic problems like Cushings. I'm assuming the same for yours.

I'd really take a look at the hay. If the horses like it that much....it probably has something besides grass/timothy in it. And rich hay will sure make them fat and promote laminitis.


----------



## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

I feel your pain; we went from mud, to frozen, bumpy mud, and now to nearly 3 feet of snow. My poor horses have struggled all winter to find good footing.

Frozen and bumpy mud can definitely cause bruising, and that may be another possible cause of lameness. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot you can do - other than put shoes on them...but I wouldn't want to shoe a pony if you really don't need them. I have one that has to wear shoes, but the rest are barefoot because they don't *need them*. But that doesn't mean they can't get a bruised foot from time to time - especially running on hard, frozen ground.

If you need something to put supplements into - a handful of grain, a handful of hay pellets, or a ration balancer should be fine. It's not a lot of calories in comparison to what she's consuming in her hay. I have two easy keepers too, and there isn't much I can do with them in the winter to change that -- I don't want to cut back their hay because it's cold...and my herd of five has two that need the extra hay. 

Come spring, my fat mares will get more work, and less grass than the others.


----------



## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

Alder said:


> What's in the hay? If it's anything but grass/timothy (has alfalfa or clover) the hay is a bigger problem than the pellets.
> 
> The senior pellets that I feed (Nutrena Safe Choice) have a high fat content, but a lower sugar/carb content. My vet says that the Senior feeds do not usually promote laminitis. My Senior brand can be fed as a complete diet (no other feed including hay) for horses with bad teeth, and those with metabolic problems like Cushings. I'm assuming the same for yours.
> 
> I'd really take a look at the hay. If the horses like it that much....it probably has something besides grass/timothy in it. And rich hay will sure make them fat and promote laminitis.


I will contact the farmer and find out. This makes sense if there is alfalfa and clover.
I don't see much clover.
Thanks!


----------



## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

wr said:


> If she's at risk for founder, it's not the cup of grain that's causing it and it likely is a matter of being an easy keeper. She has some aches that are likely restricting her activity and I'm more inclined to think that's the cause of the weight problem.
> 
> At that age, I like to see them a bit chubby going into winter because our winters are harsh and it doesn't take much for seniors to lose condition fast and it's not easy to put weight back on.


I agree with the winter weight. She's better off with it.
She's the tough one that stands outside in the blizzards and guards the others.
She's one tough cookie! And that's why we named her Sassy!
Terry


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

She's better off with grass hay and she may need to have her rations reduced but typically, if there are no other health reasons, in cold weather, I want to see a bit of insulation on my horses.


----------



## Horseyrider (Aug 8, 2010)

Here's a little factoid that might help you make some decisions about your forage choices. 

While alfalfa is higher in calories (about 1100 calories per pound versus 900 for grasses) than grass hay, and is higher in calcium (often a 5:1 or greater calcium : phosphorus ratio versus the more desirable 2:1 in grass), it doesn't deliver the winter warmth that grass does. 

Thanks to the bacterial action in the cecum due to greater fiber content, _grass delivers 33% more heat to the horse from digestion than alfalfa._ Therefore, higher grass content in hays in cold weather helps horses stay more comfortable than high alfalfa content hays.

Another thought to consider is horses that winter on drylots often have problems wearing their feet faster than they grow them. Growth generally slows in the winter anyway, and dry frozen dirt can be as abrasive as sandpaper. Soles can become too thin; and when the freezing/thawing cycle churns the mud to a frozen moonscape, horses' feet can bruise and even abscess. 

Alder is correct that rich hay can promote laminitis. But even hays that are largely alfalfa aren't terribly rich if they're first cutting, or cut late in the plant's maturity (you'll see many tiny purple flowers), or cut in early morning when the plant's stores of fructan (the sugar in grasses and hays) has been depleted. So while it's a caution about feeding alfalfa, it's not necessarily a dealbreaker.

Be careful; early spring, with it's flush of tender, rich new grass, can be very hard on obese horses. Ponies are hard to reduce because they tend to lower their metabolism with decreased rations, and get by on less.

Also, we call the outer wall of the foot the hoof, or sometimes the horn. You will find your horse will stay sounder if he has a regular visit scheduled with the farrier every six to eight weeks. Long toes force the horse to walk more on their heels, which can crush them; and even if it doesn't, it stresses the suspensories and the deep and superficial flexors, as well as the little bitty tendons and ligaments like the sesamoidian ligaments, with every single step. Imagine yourself having to walk around 24/7 with long clown shoes on. The backs of your legs could get very tired and sore.... :ashamed:

Consider making your next appointment with your farrier before they leave. That way it's in everybody's calendar and you can budget accordingly, and the horse doesn't have to wait and risk injury due to busy human schedules.


----------



## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

TerryR said:


> I agree with the winter weight. She's better off with it.
> She's the tough one that stands outside in the blizzards and guards the others.
> She's one tough cookie! And that's why we named her Sassy!
> Terry


Terry, we're also in central IL. The snow is headed our way! Instead of using a big feeder, why don't you just feed twice daily? Our two boys (one nine year old APHA and one older grade QH) keep their weight well. In the summer we don't feed them at all. When it's colder we give the two of them up to a bale a day. We don't grain them at all. We feed our grass hay. This winter they're on our ten acre hay field. We'll take them off that before it starts growing again in the spring. 

Can you let your guy out in a pasture so he's not hanging out around the hay feeder all the time?


----------



## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Post a picture. "Winter weight" to one person might be "so fat she's going to founder tomorrow" to an experienced professional - like your farrier.


----------



## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Is the driveway smooth enough? The road. Take her for walks on a halter. You might even be able to hitch her to a little cart just to get her out and about. Ask your farrier. A pony that can&#8217;t be ridden can often pull a cart.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

malinda said:


> Post a picture. "Winter weight" to one person might be "so fat she's going to founder tomorrow" to an experienced professional - like your farrier.


Having spent most of the winter on crutches, I think I likely fall into the going to founder tomorrow category.


----------

