# Picking out a newborn pup?



## mamahen (May 11, 2002)

So I found a litter of English mastiff pups & the parents looked like well put together dogs. Not the gangly oversized ones you usually see.

They had a litter of 12 pups last week - 4 of each sex are left. Everyone is picking them out & putting a deposit down. Oh, and no papers on the stud, just the mom, so none for pups. And they still want $800!

I get putting a deposit down for a pup before it's ready to leave....but how do you pick out a less than 7 day old pup, other than by size or color (which can both change dramatically by the time they are a bit older?)

I really don't want to be pushed into committing to a pup that may not work temperament-wise with our family. I like to check them out (or have the breeder do it) when they are about 4-5 weeks old.

I guess I wait for another litter? Darn it!:bored:


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

Run. At that price insist on buying from someone that has had the hips and elbows cleared by ofa. You do not want a giant breed with mystery background. No papers and picking out early plus still paying full price is silly. A deposit may hold a pick number but shouldn't hold a pup at this age.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I could pick my pups when they were wet, but by a week it's harder. When they are first whelped, you want the puppy to "fill your hand" because it has a nicely shaped, deep body. You can see the bones of the shoulder and upper arm and know if the upper arm is the same length as the shoulder and which pups have the longer shoulder/upper arm bones. You can see a low hock and the angulation and balance of the pup. You can see and compare the lengths of their necks and even the shapes of their heads. As for temperament, it is born into a puppy to a large degree. A pup that is calm and relaxed when I first pick it up will always be calmer than a pup that struggles and tenses up when I handle it. 

That said... I agree that is not the litter for you. At that price, you should have all the health clearances and registration papers and a breeder that will, as you suggest, take deposits and carefully match the puppies and the buyers for the right homes for each one. You will probably pay more for a good breeder and it will almost certainly be worth it.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Run and don't look back.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

any breeder who is requiring you pick now is not an ethical breeder....they are in it for the money. I can see picking in the order that a deposit is made (first deposit gets first choice, etc) but this picking should be done by 6 or 8 weeks....not newborn. A good breeder will want to match the pups personality with the situation it's going to....not just a random assignment. And really....for that price, you should at least be getting AKC registration. Maybe not OFA certified parents though....those pups are going to probably start closer to $1000. And that's well worth the price too, since this is a giant breed that has several health problems common to the breed that should be screened for prior to breeding.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

lasergrl said:


> Run. At that price insist on buying from someone that has had the hips and elbows cleared by ofa. You do not want a giant breed with mystery background. No papers and picking out early plus still paying full price is silly. A deposit may hold a pick number but shouldn't hold a pup at this age.


I would add "fast and far" to that "Run".

No way would I want to support someone who bred giants like that. They're going to cause pain to those dogs and the people who buy them. Physical for the dogs. emotional and financial for the people. 

Yikes.


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## mamahen (May 11, 2002)

*sigh*

I know.... I was just looking for sound advice to back me up

I *just* found out that they bred the bitc h at less than ONE YEAR old!!!:run:

I will quietly back away and r-u-n!!

Still looking for a rescue pup. Or for something to smack me upside the head.gre:


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

wow....she is still so much a baby and they bred her? amazing. Must have been in a hurry to see a return on their investment. That's really sad.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

BarbadosSheep said:


> wow....she is still so much a baby and they bred her? amazing. Must have been in a hurry to see a return on their investment. That's really sad.


No kidding. Poor girl.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

BarbadosSheep said:


> any breeder who is requiring you pick now is not an ethical breeder....they are in it for the money. I can see picking in the order that a deposit is made (first deposit gets first choice, etc) but this picking should be done by 6 or 8 weeks....not newborn. A good breeder will want to match the pups personality with the situation it's going to....not just a random assignment. And really....for that price, you should at least be getting AKC registration. Maybe not OFA certified parents though....those pups are going to probably start closer to $1000. And that's well worth the price too, since this is a giant breed that has several health problems common to the breed that should be screened for prior to breeding.


I agree with most of what you post.
one thought, I don't know this breed but could it be that since it is a X-tra large breed that the temperaments are bred to be fairly reliable?


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

tailwagging said:


> I don't know this breed but could it be that since it is a X-tra large breed that the temperaments are bred to be fairly reliable?


No, especially among breeders like this.
Scary thought, isn't it?


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

When I bred hunting dogs I was the one that placed the puppies. I did not sell "picks" and the buyers did not arrive at my house with the intention os choosing their puppies. Of course these were hunting dogs, not overgrown drool factories. We also did not allow the pups to leave the litter until at least 9 weeks.

I'd run away from this litter. The lack of health testing and registration papers is a deal killer for me.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

tailwagging said:


> I agree with most of what you post.
> one thought, I don't know this breed but could it be that since it is a X-tra large breed that the temperaments are bred to be fairly reliable?


Nope...not at all. Like any breed, there will be shy pups, outgoing pups, bully pups, submissive pups and aggressive pups. Some will be easy to train, some will be more strong willed. That's with any breed from teeny to giant. No litter is loaded with pups that all have identical temperaments. And with an irresponsible breeder like this, there is no telling what mix of genetics there are.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

tailwagging said:


> I don't know this breed but could it be that since it is a X-tra large breed that the temperaments are bred to be fairly reliable?


You give byb's too much credit.  I wish that everyone would breed for temperament, but alas, there are too many out there that breed simply for money. Even enormous, powerful, potentially dangerous breeds. Scary, eh?


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## TxHorseMom (Feb 21, 2011)

I agree with the others that you should not buy from this breeder, but, that being said, $800 is not an exorborant price for an English Mastiff. In my area, they start at around $1200 and go up from there. If you want a really nice one, expect to pay $2000-$3000 easily. Those breeders (and I use the term loosely) who have sires or dams not registered will charge $800-$1000


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

While I do agree that there can be some differences. Most breeds have breed temperament traits. or else we couldn't say things like* most* labs are good friendly dogs or that most Newfoundland are lay back, most Italian greyhounds are meek, most terriers are up on their toes.......

I am not saying these are good breeders. I am say there is no shoes that fits all breeds. I don't know this breed (as in never raised it ) to know when you can start picking. just that consistency in temperament (as well as looks) are a goal in breeding.and that 50% of temperment *is genetic.* their pups maybe just fine.

did you ask that if the pup doesn't have the temperament that you want that you can get your deposit back? 

if this was an oop litter and she is under two there would be no ofa. due it age restrictions 
there again there are some very good breeders that don't put much stock in ofa anymore (after differences in ratings of the same x-ray and that the mode of inheritance of HD is unknown) but I agree it is preferable to have it done.
Did you ask for a health guarantee? that would cover hips at two years? 

while the rest can be explained away, why does the male have no papers? is it just that they not sent in or was he himself (or parent) sold as a pet?
if it is that he (or parent) was sold as a pet then i would consider these breeders dishonest.

would I buy for these breeders? most likely not. I would ask questions first though. like how long have they be breeding? if this is their first litter then they really may not know how to do it right. none of us were born knowing how to be a breeder.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Tailwagging, I appreciate that you want to defend breeders because you feel that breeders get slammed, but I hope that you can appreciate that on this forum, I have not seen GOOD breeders get slammed at all.

But breeders like this give everyone a bad name, and defending them makes it seem like this is acceptable to the good ones, and has the opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish.

Could it be an Oops breeding? Sure, of course. But I forgive this a lot less quickly in a giant breed then in a toy breed, where a person could think that keeping their girl locked in the bedroom is enough. Whereas if you're going to keep 100+ pound dogs and breed them, I expect you to have a set-up for them. What if you have to take a pup back?

Could the breeders simply not have faith in the OFA? Yeah, maybe. I know a few good breeders who don't. Cardi people are famous for it. But the GOOD breeders who don't are very careful to have performance records, as in; "Cardis are notorious for scoring badly on the OFA, however, it doesn't much relate to performance, this b*tch competed in agility and also got her CH before being bred, I feel confident that she's sound"
That didn't happen here.

And on, and on. These people have hit every red flag, but all you want to call them on is that they might be breeding dogs with limited registration papers? (biggest pyramid scheme/scam, EVER, btw)
It makes you look bad, and you are a good breeder.

We can say MOST labs are friendly because of good breeders. But you can't say any of that about any breed in the top 10 because those breeds are snatched up by the make-a-buck folks. The only dog who ever flat out tried to kill me and would not back down? Black Lab, AKC papers. From a pet shop. Do you think I was comforted by the fact that the breed description calls for a steady, friendly, reliable temperament as I fought for my life?
MOST is not good enough. Is the specific puppy she's going to come home with a stellar example of the breed, and backed by it's breeder? No, and therefore they are not worth squat.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Like I said Otter I am *not *saying these are good breeders.

I am saying that not all breeders are the same. 
Most BYB don't know or understand how important their decisions on breeding are.

I bred many a year as a "byb" not understanding the importance of showing. I still wanting to produce the best pets (yes pets) that I could. A happy friendly pup that looked like the breed. I even showed a little (different breed)had a mentor that won a lot but not very helpful as a mentor. one that told you what to do instead of explaining why. AND ran in to the most snobby people so I stopped. I still bred (yup evil breeder that didn't show). I had the same goals, the best pet I could produce. then I meet a show breeder on line that was non judgmental and really tried to help ANYONE who had a question. that was a WOW moment for me. 
*Some show people are nice??!!! *
At her suggestion I read the book *Born to Win, Breed to Succeed* THEN I understood "the why" were as before I didn't. Then I started showing again. I picked a pup out of one of my own (BYB) litter (same bloodline that i work with then and now) and kicked butt (3 majors in one weekend).

So before all the showing I was a good breeder, before I started health testing I was a good breeder. 

so some BYBs do produce good dogs and Some DO care and some WILL back their puppies.

Why the non paper issue bothers me is, if they bought the male telling his breeder he was to be a pet THEN bred him THAT is dishonest.


I think an opps litter can happen more easily for a large dog. they are harder to contain if they REALLY want out. can chew though chain link, brake a gate latch....

true some labs are nuts.

Just for anyone interested top ten AKC breeds 

Labrador Retrievers 
German Shepherd Dogs 
Beagles 
Golden Retrievers 
Yorkshire Terriers 
Bulldogs 
Boxers 
Poodles 
Dachshunds 
Rottweilers 

http://www.akc.org/reg/dogreg_stats.cfm


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

I didn't say anything about BYB vs show. Honestly, for myself, I want performance first, and to perform, a dog doesn't even have to be registered. AKC papers impress me not one whit.
OFA papers do.
Proof of performance does.
Show wins do - not in and of themselves, but they say to me that at least this breeder cares enough to do SOMETHING with her dogs. It tells me that they are healthy, well groomed and capable of being around other dogs without exploding and handled by strange people without biting (it's not a sure thing, but a lot better then if they never leave the yard)

We've followed each other on this forum for years, I do think you are a good breeder. But, for the sake of others - before you health tested or showed, how did you know? And how did your puppy buyers know?

If I were to look for a toy breed, what I would want to know is how this line does at age 10. Do they have nasty skin, cataracts and only 3 teeth left in their heads by then? Could you have answered that for me? (a lot of show breeders couldn't, it's not a show vs byb thing)
To answer that most people think that they'd have had to have been breeding dogs for 10 years. No. But you'd have had to do your homework. Where is your b*tch's mother's litter sister now? Or their mother? Or grandmother. I don't care about the sire's latest show win, these pups on the ground, does their great grandmother still have all her teeth? Is she incontinent?

Before I give someone $1200 for the privileged of mincing beef liver and chicken 7 years from now and for 5 years after that, and doing laundry every day I want to know.
Someone who really cares about their line can tell me, show wins or not. Most people don't care that much.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Oh, and the papers thing - I can't write on a public forum how little I care. Some breeders wanted a program where they had control over breeding rights, regardless of the quality of the dog, They got it, it has worked to the detriment of dogs to a disgusting degree. Ethical ones don't, but a huge number of breeders use the program to get a few hundred more out of people for breeding rights, I don't feel bad for them when people don't pay.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Otter said:


> I didn't say anything about BYB vs show. Honestly, for myself, I want performance first, and to perform, a dog doesn't even have to be registered. AKC papers impress me not one whit.
> OFA papers do.
> Proof of performance does.
> Show wins do - not in and of themselves, but they say to me that at least this breeder cares enough to do SOMETHING with her dogs. It tells me that they are healthy, well groomed and capable of being around other dogs without exploding and handled by strange people without biting (it's not a sure thing, but a lot better then if they never leave the yard)
> ...


Yes I like to see someone do something with their dogs too =) it shows they have a goal. 
Shows are more the a beauty pageant. in most breeds it is about sound movement as well as looking like the breed. like a nice looking car with all is bots screwed on right and tires balanced so less wear and tear on other parts as it gets older. 

Thank you otter I try to breed better offspring then the parents (learned that from a paper sent out by the American Harlequin rabbit club)

before I showed... good question. long before dogs when i was 16, i bought with birthday money two books The joy of breeding your own show dog and breeding better dogs. I hadn't thought about breeding dogs but was just animal book nerd. 
then my first job was at a dairy and I looked a boat loads of semen catalogs and hoard's dairyman. later at 19 I went to Graham school for cattle and thought that was what I was going to do with my life. there I learn more about animal care and about looking at the animals type (parts and how they fit together) when my fibromyalgia got too bad for me to work I had to give up dairying. In ag you learn that breeding for a goal does matter.
I took an at Animal care/vet tec home coarse.
my oldest son has Asperger so it was best I stated home anyways. when he was 9 we started him showing rabbits and it was WONDERFUL for him!!!!
after about a year we had to move to town and couldn't have them (livestock) so wanted to show dogs. WOW was it different!! snobs !!!
but the change that, that dog made in my son life was heart filling.
we weren't rich, hubby in the army, me not able to work. it was very hard $$ wise to get a good dog. 
so that is why I started to breed. so people who didn't have boats loads of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ could still get a good pet. so yes even before showing there was research. reading forums,books,videos and breeder friends but not about showing since I didn't understand how is was a tool.



How did my buyers know I was a good breeder? 
I never tried to 'Sell" them a dog. I told them good AND the bad about the breed. I asked them questions and answered any of theirs. had pup vet checked before letting them go and had a health guarantee and take back

truthfully most toy dogs (breeds) at ten years are missing teeth, since teeth are the last thing to bantamize. some have tight lips that holds food, other breeds may have issues with ruff enamel plaguing the breed back after ww11 when there was a limited gene pool. other have crowed teeth due to jaw and head shape (like peks) some start to "grey out" early so could look older. some breeds age well and some don't. some family lines do better some don't. 

Breeding anything is a gamble. wish it was like Mr potato head but it isn't.
something the buyer must understand in this wal-mart day and age
dogs are living things, breeders aren't god. each dog heath wise is different.
we can guess-a-mate but if someone say they can tell you for sure. then they are a lier.

it takes about 5 years of study to know a breed, show wise. we are always learning when it comes to heath and pedigree wise.

I give a discount for limited AKC pet papers. I charge a regular pet price for a show pup to a proven shower (sometimes I give them the pup). I charge a still very low price for a show pup but higher then a pet to a new shower. as a whole I charge less then what my pups are worth since my goal isn't to make money. but to offer a good pet.


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