# I would like one and GF offered to pay for it as my early Christmas present...



## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

...but I told her I want to wait until the election is verified and BATF attempts to make them short barrelled rifles stopped.

Some folks we shoot with at the indoor pistol /rifle shooting range have gotten AR style pistols and I got to try a Ruger PC Charger 9mm and watch the man with a 5.56 pistol of another manufacturer shoot.his.

Both had forearm braces and rail mounted long view scopes that reminded me of scopes that I used to see mounted on wild boar hunting revolvers, but seeing the guy with 5.56 have to use both hands and the man with the 9mm shoot his one handed with accuracy at about 80 yards, I tried his and even on my first time although heavier than my Glock my longer range accuracy was fair to good and I was able to control it almost as well as my other semi auto pistols while crutch supporting myself with my off hand with the mental safety assurance of the range master and owner behind my shoulder as I tried it out.

After I shot a few rounds and brought the target in, I remarked that it sort of reminded me of the cut down rifle from the Wanted Dead or Alive series and that was when the owner and range master both said BATF was trying to add them to the short barrel shotgun and carbine regulations in place since the 1930s and the election would have effect also.

I still have my long guns from before became 3 legged and can shoot them sitting but if these remain legal , the 9mm appeals to me as a longer range accuracy firearm that I could handle standing with my crutch to give me almost rifle capability.

Anyone here tried pistol carbines? Your thoughts of their functionality and future legality of them?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I haven't tried the pistol caliber , although I would like to get the Ruger PCC they are about unobtanium this year . the 5.56 10.5 inch barrel pistol does well on steel out to 200 yards have not tried further 

functionality is great , pistol caliber carbines were never really intended to have long barrels the sweet spot for the cartridge where it is making 95% or better of the velocity it will have in a 16 inch barrel

the original Thompsons were 12 inch barrels in 45acp the M3 Grease gun was 8 inches and the MP40 9mm was just shy of 9 inches a blend of maneuvering and effectiveness 40fps more won't change the effectiveness of a round going 1210 by going 1250 but a 8 inch shorter barrel will help a lot with weight and handling.

I just don't know on the continued legality without tax stamp , I wouldn't wait too long from what I see at least for now they are using it as a tool to block import of these guns because pistols import different than long guns , semi auto long guns have been under import restrictions that they didn't want to impose on handguns in the 1990s it would have made bringing Glock handguns into the US an issue just as so many police departments were switching to them.


easier to buy it now and change barrels


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

a 2 point sling like a blue force gear , condor speedy 2 point sling

you can have your braced pistol lay on your front or back muzzle down and easily bring it up easily


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

GCP,
I think the extra weight of it and me not being used to it had me all over the sweet zones and out , despite the optics and forearm stabilizer , but if I get one, shooting practice would get me used to the weight.

I one hand shot that 9 PCC at around 100 yards with the arm length scope and out of 19 rounds I got five center on a b27 center to high ,8 center to low right in the 9 , 2 on the line , 1 in the 8 zone and two rounds Maggie's drawers off the shoulder as I tried correcting from what I saw through the optics.

With all the background checking now and how Slipping Joe and Clap Trap Kamala talk , I would hate forking over $900 only to have to pay through the nose to keep it or lose it to the gun grabbers a couple years in.

Our range master said if Trump is re-elected , they would be safe for 6 years or so at least from what he is reading.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Simply un-American that they have a guy thinking like that


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

I agree , but he has been around as a range master since the Clinton days and know how gun grabbers try to destroy us. On the flip side he said if the big agenda fails, despite the cost now, he figures it would not be out of line to anticipate an increase in value 50 to 100 percent if the ones already on the market get grandfathered in as the ones already here or on transport during the Clinton era ban.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Shrek said:


> I agree , but he has been around as a range master since the Clinton days and know how gun grabbers try to destroy us. On the flip side he said if the big agenda fails, despite the cost now, he figures it would not be out of line to anticipate an increase in value 50 to 100 percent if the ones already on the market get grandfathered in as the ones already here or on transport during the Clinton era ban.


Shrek, is this a weapon you would be looking to carry out of state often, or carry concealed?

If not, you could consider buying it as a pistol, then completing a Form 1 to make it into an SBR. That would cost you an extra $200, about $30 to have it engraved, and about 30 days if you e-file your Form 1.

Once completed, you could put a proper, adjustable stock on it and not have to worry about pistol brace rulings.

The downside to an SBR is that you have to file (free) forms to take it to the states you might travel with it- the forms are good for one year- and, in most places, you can’t have it loaded in your vehicle.


FWIW, I have both SBRs and AR pistols. I carry an AR pistol in my truck at all times- specifically for when I’m traveling and may end up needing more than a conventional pistol to get home.

If they ever outlaw pistol braces, I’ll remove the one from my truck gun. An old school AR pistol (sans brace) can be shot surprisingly well with a sling- pushing out against the sling, instead of pulling in against your shoulder.

If they ever ban AR pistols, all of my short uppers are safe because they’re parts for my SBRs.

There are no long-term guarantees in the gun-legality game, but there are ways to hedge your bet.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

you should definitely do it don't let the bad man keep you down


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Posted 11/18/20 7:45 PM CST

I let her and the range safety officer / firearm counter salesman convince me to let her buy me a 5.56 AR pistol after he showed me his with arm brace similar to the cuff on my crutch and he supervised me firing it. Even without a sling attached , with the braced to my forearm, the kick wasn't noticeably worse than the pistol caliber one I shot with a different brace..

He said the model he had could accommodate a sling he makes that can be worn over head and shoulder with a overall gallus type locking slide adjuster to offer counter stabilizing tension by sliding it forward as I half weaver fire it and tighten it to chest secure it like pulling up gallus straps to eliminate droopy drawer seat.

He is outfitting it and she is putting out about $900 but she is still doing better than me as I have had a fully restored 95 Z-28 hid at a friends house after$1500 for the car and $4,000 of body , interior , body and drive engine and transmission rebuild over 10 months to replace hers that was stolen 3 years ago..

The range master set my mind at ease by reminding me that my long range accuracy with one arm was better with the 5.56 , I can safely "shoot a rifle " while standing on my crutch if needed and despite all the what ifs , with all the congressional swamp rats worrying about their paychecks that before these go completely away, maybe magazine capacity might be reduced and even 10 rounds from a carbine pistol I can place tight at long range might prove an advantage over my smaller caliber pistols.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

very good , enjoy , glad you didn't let those gun grabbers get you down.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Posted 11/18/20 11: 34 PM CST

The range master had me run 120 rounds through his and while the control of the 5.56 being as easy as the pistol rounds I tried with the Charger, he reminded me that now being basically one armed, I use my free arm to do all my carrying and it is stronger and the arm brace makes it an extension of my strong arm.

He also said the modified bandolier sling he is putting on it in addition to providing chest carry as a rifle , the release button extension will act as a support arm and improve my groupings at 200 yards. 

It feels good being able to walk with a rifle again and if i get it in time I may go deer hunting with the guys I rifle stalk hunted with before turning into a crutch walker since 223 / 5.56 are legal rounds here.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I have shot deer with the AR pistol you don't expect a blood trail , with good shot placement they will be down in 20-30 yards.

I have heard better things about the Barnes Tripple shock copper bullets for exit but have not tried them

I used 55gr soft point , made organ jelly but not one drop of blood I found the deer about 25 yards off in the direction it ran I could hear it crash and flopping a few seconds after I shot it but waited to go check on it till it had been still about 20 minutes , it was dead in 2 lungs were Jelly bullet what was left of it was under the hide on the far side 

if you can find a small folding stool you can easily sling across your back walk in and sit and move occasionally especially if a couple of you are watching a swamp edge or some deer travel path when you move you often move deer if your moving while the friend is still they will walk into the friend often as an easy shot.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

When I mentioned using the pistol to hunt with one of the guys I used to hunt with, he said a triple shot expansion .223 Winchester round was what he used in his AR rifle.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Winchester makes a 64gr power point and Barnes is the maker of the Tipple Shock an all copper bullet that the tip expands 

I hear good things about both for deer but have not used either 

Barnes was a Remington owned so not sure when they will be running again


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Posted 11/20/20 4:42PM CST

My hunting partner said he can provide me ammo to stalk hunt with him and a couple others and the range master is making the sling and tether and will do the measuring to me in the next week or so.

As usual, if I luck out and get a buck, I will get a leg quarter and the rack and the other leg quarters get shared with our hunting party. On the bright side by sharing , we all get some venison, even the guys who lose a shirt tail square for the missed shot patch quilt that gets made every few years and one of us buys in a club auction with the money going to the charity of their choice.

Even though I haven't hunted with them much the last 15 years, they have still brought me a few leg quarters and all the rib cages to cook down for meat stock for our stews, I already bought a roll of camo duct tape to wrap my yard work cuff crutch to match my hunting coveralls as I wait for the range master to get it ready.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

sounds good , Happy hunting 

we are headed out in the morning Opening day here , we only get 9 days with Thanksgiving one of them more like 8.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

11/21/20 12:02 AM CST

We can stalk hunt from tomorrow to Feb 10th. The only difference now is if we see a emaciated or wobbly moving un wounded deer , we are supposed to call the conservation officer in our hunt area as while no cases of chronic wasting disease have been found in Alabama's million plus white tail deer population (pretty good from 50 breeding pairs introduced here 70 years ago), it is in Mississippi.

I went and got my fishing and hunting permit today and being on the cuff crutch was offered the no cost disabled sportsman permit but said I use my cuff crutch as a cane and opted for a normal permit since I will be stalk hunting minimal obstruction private hunting areas we in the club own or lease and using the brace pistol.

While GF knew that the pistol we got was a 5.56 , she didn't understand why the ammo my friend let me have is .223 caliber and we explained to her that is was like a .357 shooting .38 and the .223s he let me have are the same size brass but have better expansion.

Although the pistol has high capacity magazines, my range master making my tether sling and installing the forearm stock that he says I am strong enough in my shooting arm to do good without use of the wrap suggested I consider buying a few 5 round magazines for profile reduction when holstered and moving to reduce my draw , tether expansion and aim time if needed.

When I told the guy I got the ammo from, he said when he takes his 5.56 rifle deer hunting , he uses 5 round magazines simply because when hunting even with a suppressor he only gets one shot and he feels the smaller magazines foul less.

He also said using a ARs if we get checked by a conservation officer, low capacity magazines may keep them more at ease but for home prep use 20 or 30 rounds.

Not having a noise suppressor and it being a pistol I figure to use the rechargeable noise canceling ear plugs I use at the range so I can hear and have report reduction.

My GF has said she might come with us using the .308 she inherited from her father and the guy I got my ammo from was there and said sure ,some of the wives and GFs came but NO PINK CAMO , only forest camo and required hunter orange LOL

I told her of course she was welcome to hunt with us because we hunted with her uncle in the old days of our youth as I quietly thought to myself like I could say no since she bought it for me to get back to doing something I enjoy as best I can without using disabled hunter blinds.

Dang, I'm jumpy as a long tail cat in a room full of rocking chairs and old ladies knitting waiting on my customized for me Ruger to be ready to go.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

to better explain to your GF simply

5.56 is the NATO name for 223 . the 223 Remington was first 

With slightly higher pressure 60Kpsi for Nato vs 55Kpsi for 223rem

the 5.56 also has a longer throat to take longer bullets 

you can explain that a 5.56 nato can take 223 but a 223 can't always take a 5.56 (some 223 rifles like the Ruger Mini 14 was marked 223 but was built like a tank with Ruger's own throat design which the said was save for 5.56)

hunting ammo is made to 223 SAAMI Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufactures Institute Spec the certifying body for sporting ammo in the USA 

since NATO doesn't use expanding ammunition because it is again the Geneva convention and hunting requires expanding ammo you can see were you wouldn't get much if any Nato spec hunting ammo.

good luck hunting


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

they made blaze pink an official color here 

there are reasons against it like red green color blind apparently see Pink and Green the same but it is still legal to encourage the ladies to hunt.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Posted 11/23/20 6:34 PM CST

I went to the range today to pick it and the sling rigging up and try it out and I am quite satisfied with the sling riigging and after market arm brace he used.
The arm brace is as he said, a bit cuff style and fits me nicely and the wrap strap is easy for me to secure with my weak hand.

The sling rigging he integrated into a tactical vest and the pistol holster secures across my chest and the sling has an anchor on the web belt on the vest and sling storage pouch.

He explained the vest also provides extra magazine storage and the web belt mounted holster can allow me to chamber a round safely with one hand.

After putting it on and taking my place on the firing line, he watched me chamber a round side standing to aim down range, extend the sling , release the weapon from the holster and fire it and practice safe clearing it and changing magazines both with the weapon in and out of the chest holstering locks.

The rigging cost me a few hundred but is comfortable and easy to use and the utility webbing, cuff brace, vest and holster rack he used to make the chest rig made up most of the costs of the custom made rig.

My wrist is a little sore but I fired six high capacity magazines and three low capacity magazines at completion targets and human and deer silhouette targets at various distances and when I go hunting, I won't be firing that much ammunition.


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