# 1930's CCC Camps-know what I'm talking about



## kudzuvine (Aug 11, 2011)

Civilian Conservation Corps - CCC. I recently bought a piece of property and found out that the county's CCC camp was located on part of it. I also write articles for local newspaper and decided to write one on CCC Camps. In my research, I found how President Roosevelt tried to revive the economy after the Great Depression and realized what was going on then is going on now. This is what he said:

âI propose to create a civilian conservation corps to be used in simple work, not interfering with normal employment, and confining itself to forestry, the prevention of soil erosion, flood control, and similar projects. I call your attention to the fact that this type of work is of definite practical value, not only through the prevention of great present financial loss but also a means of creating future national wealthâ¦More important, however, than the material gains will be the moral and spiritual value of such work. The overwhelming majority of unemployed Americans, who are now walking the streets and receiving private or public relief, would infinitely prefer to work. We can take a vast army of these unemployed out into healthful surroundings.â

What's that saying about time repeats itself? Little scary to me and maybe we need CCC Camps again. Your thoughts? Janet in Mississippi
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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

I don't doubt camps are in this country's future, but I doubt they'll be as benign as the CCC camps. Whole different reason for them.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I worked in the YCC when I was 15.... It would be cool if they brought back the CCC.. we'd gt some things fixed, and give some people jobs that have some real value in what they would learn..


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## backwoods (Sep 12, 2004)

Can the "gov." _really_ afford to hire THAT many more people? I don't believe this is a long term solution to the unemployment problem. 
Getting off the backs off people who want to start/expand companies would help though. Obama is "regulating" small business owner's right OUT of business. Those with the money to create new businesses, won't. Same reasons, reg's, obamacare, decline of the dollar & the economy in general. The fed gov isn't supposed to "create" jobs, they're supposed to get out of the way so individual's and companies can.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

It was a different time. People actually felt embarrassed for their financial problems then ( whether it was, or was not, their fault ). They would fight FOR a job.....any job.

Today, there is such a sense of entitlement, fostered by 50 years of govt welfare programs, that they would fight to keep from working.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

backwoods said:


> Can the "gov." _really_ afford to hire THAT many more people? I* don't believe this is a long term solution to the unemployment problem. *


It wasn't then either. The only thing that ended the depression of the 30's was Roosevelt getting us into WW2. With that, govt spending, and dollar devaluation has pretty much been off to the races ever since.


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## kudzuvine (Aug 11, 2011)

it was also called the "manly camp". Boys into men. It was a different time back then, so much as gone wrong. I too have been a small business owner and know the hardships faced each day to keep your doors open and work for your employees. I felt NO support from our gov't in trying to provide jobs and boost economy. Don't know what the answer is but solutions so far have not and are not working.


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## kudzuvine (Aug 11, 2011)

And....I do have to say that we, as Americans, need to be prepared and survive with what we have here on our soil. No more importing what we can grow. We need to provide for our own...other words.....if we grow, make, etc. everything we (Americans) need then I believe the snowball effect would better us all. Getting carried away...sorry.


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## backtocolo (May 1, 2012)

I wrote a paper on the CCC in college. I have been saying for several years we need to quit sending money to other countries and start something like the CCC again. Lets train men to build inexpensive modular housing, put in community gardens, demolish some of these abandoned buildings that are urban blight etc etc etc

Our country needs to get away from the idea that you are nothing if you don't have a title.


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## backwoods (Sep 12, 2004)

kudzuvine said:


> And....I do have to say that we, as Americans, need to be prepared and survive with what we have here on our soil. No more importing what we can grow. We need to provide for our own...other words.....if we grow, make, etc. everything we (Americans) need then I believe the snowball effect would better us all. Getting carried away...sorry.


IMO, That's part of the problem, we (U.S.) have hardly any manufacturing industry going on in this country anymore. As a kid, I wore undies from the standard knitting mill where my grandfather worked, jeans from the Levi's shop where my other grandmother worked, ate pimento cheese & ham salad from the company my mom worked at for awhile, and my toys mostly came from a company that my mom used to work for. Our tv & stereo came from a company my uncle worked for. Never heard of a Toyota, everybody we knew drove a ford or chevy. Our milk came from a dairy down the road and was delivered to the frig by our "milkman" and he knew where the house key was hidden. (Now I'm getting carried away...sorry!)
But seriously, everything you pick up now says made in china, mexico, or some other country, and MOST of it is CRAP. I would rather pay more, and get a higher quality product that's going to last for more than 2 weeks. Sam Walton began Walmart bragging how the merchandise was "made in the USA." I'd bet if you pick up 15 items there now, maybe 1 or 2 are made in the US. Where have all the jobs gone? Its easy to tell, just look at the labels of what you're buying. The FDA has given approval for US raised & grown CHICKEN to be shipped to china to be processed and then shipped back to the US to be sold here! Yep, I can't make that kind of stuff up, and we all know NOTHING can go wrong with THAT plan, right? They don't have to label it so that you know, either. We better start growing our own, folks! (IF you aren't already)


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Backwoods, I saw an old Indian woman working on a floor loom a few days ago. She makes saddle blankets, 100% wool, and they sell for about $400. Pretty patterns too.

But the economy which would have previously bought them is gone. She's still weaving, but they're just piling up in the corner now waiting to be bought.


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## backwoods (Sep 12, 2004)

simi-steading said:


> I worked in the YCC when I was 15.... It would be cool if they brought back the CCC.. we'd gt some things fixed, and give some people jobs that have some real value in what they would learn..


The CCC only employed unmarried men 18-25 and they weren't "trained" to do anything but manual labor. The labor unions saw to that, as there were many union members out of work. 

William Green, head of the American Federation of Labor, was taken to the first camp to demonstrate that there would be* no job training involved* beyond simple manual labor... according to Wikipedia.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

In terms of the CCC and a modern day equivalent, let me ask you this. How many people that are currently unemployed are going to sign up for this? It would be hard work in tough conditions. Men these days just don't seem to be willing to move away from the family for work as they used to be. That was a broad generalization. We surely have many examples here otherwise.

I live in WA and in the eastern part they can't get enough people to pick veg and fruit so they employ illegals. Where are all the citizens that need jobs?


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

backwoods said:


> The CCC only employed unmarried men 18-25 and they weren't "trained" to do anything but manual labor. The labor unions saw to that, as there were many union members out of work.
> 
> William Green, head of the American Federation of Labor, was taken to the first camp to demonstrate that there would be* no job training involved* beyond simple manual labor... according to Wikipedia.


Manual labor in the woods still teaches you a lot.. you start learning a lot about the plants and wildlife.. If you're building any kind of roads or trails.. or building ranger stations or outhouses, it teaches you something.. if you're digging ponds, it teaches you more..


If all you are doing is physical labor, and not learning anything while you're doing it, you're doing it wrong..


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

To understand the CCC camps and the how and why of them you have to do a little digging and understand history. They were a brilliant solution to a host of problems. At a minimum, they had these purposes:

1. The men working in them had a little money to send back to their wives and family to prevent starvation. This is what most people think was the primary purpose.

2. The various public works projects generally had strategic value as well as economic value. Dams create electricity, electricity is used in steelmaking and industry. Isolated camps can also function as detainment facilities. This was downplayed in favor of the gloss of new recreational facilities and dams creating recreational lakes.

3. From a world perspective, the camps indicated a desire of the U.S. to stay out of wars, even as American industry was selling arms to anyone who could buy.

4. The camps were AWAY from population centers and very strictly controlled with a quasi-military structure. Why?

4a. This was a period when the world was embracing communism, socialism, and fascism. The prime targets of the proselytizers were unemployed young men. Pulling that group out of the cities and into controlled manageable groups allowed oversight of them and immediate removal of the rabble rousers.

4b. Roosevelt and others saw war on the horizon, but recognized that the general population had reverted to isolationism after the horrors of WW I. By training men in use of heavy equipment and construction, and housing them in a military style encampment, the CCC camps functioned as politically correct boot camps. When war did break out, the camps were purposely dissolved to force the men either back into unemployment or the military.

A friend of mine has done a fairly extensive historical paper on one of the camps. The "only manual labor" statement is and isn't true. There are plenty of photos in his work of loaded dump trucks, dozers, the use of explosives, and civil engineering tools. The men weren't generally allowed more than minor supervisory positions, and often were moved individually between camps to prevent cliques and lasting friendships from forming.


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## just_sawing (Jan 15, 2006)

My father was in the CCCs until WW2 where he became a Ranger Army that is. He broke paths in what is now Brice Canyon Utah. His money all but a Quarter every month was a turning point in his family well being. Pa (his father) made Moonshine and worked a farm. Times were rough in the fact that the government would love to own your farm for the Property taxes. So some money was needed.


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## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

TnAndy said:


> It wasn't then either. The only thing that ended the depression of the 30's was Roosevelt getting us into WW2. With that, govt spending, and dollar devaluation has pretty much been off to the races ever since.


Roosevelt "getting" us into WE2??? Seriously?
I tend to think that Japan got us into WW2

And I agree, in theory, the camps could be a good idea, but, as stated, men back then cared, now everyone is too dumb and/or lazy to care.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

We could finance the "camps" with what we give away in welfare payments.

I have maintained for many years now that the US needs to have every young person register and do some sort of civil service work (training) for a few years. Since parental oversight and schooling aren't instilling the values and work ethic needed to maintain this country.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

First off, Roosevelt STARTED the welfare state we have now. 

Are some of you actually advocating that Roosevelt's solution for preventing revolution (amongst young, unemployed, borderline starving men with families) is the ANSWER to the welfare state we have now?

Some of you also seem to be implying that if young men would rather get food stamps than work then they should be forcibly sent to the camps.

I'm a little confused. Every other week someone posts a statement worrying that we're going to be sent to internment labor camps, but here in this thread we're advocating labor camps?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Wolf mom said:


> I have maintained for many years now that the US needs to have every young person register and do some sort of civil service work (training) for a few years. Since parental oversight and schooling aren't instilling the values and work ethic needed to maintain this country.


Slavery? You're admitting that you advocate slavery?

So the government enslaves children for 13 years already, can't instill the values, and YOU think that giving that young adult to the government for a few more years would solve the problem?

Do you SEE the logic problem there?

ETA:

Ok, for everyone who advocates national service because young people aren't learning enough about our country.

This country was founded on individual freedom and liberty. All of our principle documents discuss this. We even have an amendment banning slavery on the basis of race or age (which apparently some of you haven't heard of).

The fact that you are advocating this demonstrates that YOU have failed to learn the appropriate values concerning our country and that YOU are the best candidate for a few years of reeducation. 

Oh, it's not slavery because they'll get paid for their time? Even ***** slaves in 1840 were "paid" for their labor by food and shelter.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I just can't stop thinking about this.

Wolf Mom, if the youth of today knew that you were advocating their forced servitude to the state, they would be COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED in beating you to death in the street.

Just as any of us would be if you pulled up in our driveways with a pair of chains and a shovel to haul us off to the work camps.

The entire ***** race was enslaved wherever they could be captured because they didn't share "our values". The Native Americans apparently couldn't be captured or properly enslaved so they were exterminated.

In the Supreme Court case _The United States versus The Amistad, _it was decided that a free man had the natural right to defend their liberty against those who would enslave him, up to and including violence.

If this nation ever institutes national service (again), I'll lead the bloody revolution myself.


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## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

The optimal idea, would be a workfare system, rather than welfare. In other words, if you are receiving welfare funding in any form of state or federal assistance, you should have to work so many hours a week in public service.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Some teachers are taking it upon their selves to get kids into civil slavery on their own... 

Here's the text for this video... 

Uploaded on Oct 6, 2008
I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO OBAMA ! CLICK to watch Barack's 75 SECONDS ! : [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhueOO[/ame]...

A middle school teacher in Missouri was suspended Monday for putting a video on YouTube of his students chanting lines from Barack Obama speeches and wearing military fatigues.

The video, called "Obama Youth -- Junior Fraternity Regiment," was posted by a YouTube user named "keepitwildtv" on Oct. 2. The school learned the video was on the Internet and took action against the teacher Monday morning.

Joyce McGautha, superintendent of the Urban Community Leadership Academy, a charter school for students in fifth through ninth grades in Kansas City, Mo., said that the video was probably taken last May during the Junior Fraternity's morning meeting at the school.

She would not disclose the teacher's name. "At this time because of the legal action that we'll probably have to take against the teacher, I'm not going to give his name," McGautha said.

Students at the school have 30-minute group sessions four times a week during which they are supposed to work on reading and writing. Once a week they are allowed to have "activities," McGautha said. There are 12 groups at the public charter school.

The Junior Fraternity students studied Obama's economic plan with the teacher, and the superintendent did not know whether the teacher or the students scripted the routine. The group should have also studied John McCain's economic plan, the superintendent said. 

In the video, eighth- and ninth-graders wearing military camouflage pants and navy t-shirts chant and perform a routine in the style of a step show, a dance popular among African-American fraternities at universities.

The students enter the room chanting "Alpha. Omega. Alpha. Omega." Then, one at a time, they state things they were "inspired" to do by Barack Obama, including becoming an architect and a sheriff. At the end of the video, the students make statements about Obama's healthcare plan. "Obama's healthcare plan will be able to provide participants the ability to move from job to job without taking their healthcare coverage," one says.

"People are upset that possibly taxpayer money is being used to support one particular candidate," McGautha said, "and now I can understand that. And I didn't condone them. I try very, very hard to remain within the limits of the law. I think this is unfortunate."

She said she was aware of the video, and that many of the school's activities are recorded, but that the teacher had been warned in a letter not to put it on the Internet. If he did, she said, he should seek legal counsel.

The teacher's fate will be taken up by the charter school's board, she said.

"Certain things don't happen in public schools anyway, but there area lot of other ramifications when you take it public," McGautha said. 

"As far as [the teacher is] concerned, I think he gets what was supposed to come to him. But I don't think the children should be the victims of his stupidity."

FOX NEWS .COM : http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/...

[ OCTOBER 6, 2008 ]
Category
People & Blogs

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mvP0ArKIGY[/ame]


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> The optimal idea, would be a workfare system, rather than welfare. In other words, if you are receiving welfare funding in any form of state or federal assistance, you should have to work so many hours a week in public service.


Nationalism. 

Right now, the intended purpose (claimed purpose) of welfare is to give you a hand while you go forth and seek employment in the independent economy.

Your idea would essentially nationalize welfare recipients and turn them all into government employees. 

How does that move them out of welfare and into private sector employment? It doesn't. It simply gives them less time available each week to provide for themselves.

Also, it pretty much means that EVERY government employee could be considered to be on workfare, only some are more skilled than others. 

If the government needs people to dig ditches and build roads, let them PAY A LIVING WAGE to get it done and there will be a line of volunteers out the door.


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## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

Ernie, NO, it wouldn't male them govt employees. I think if someone had to do some hard physical work to help fund their handouts, they might get off their lazy butts and seek higher paying employment.
Much better than paying them to sit at home watching Oprah and making more babies.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> Ernie, NO, it wouldn't male them govt employees. I think if someone had to do some hard physical work to help fund their handouts, they might get off their lazy butts and seek higher paying employment.
> Much better than paying them to sit at home watching Oprah and making more babies.


I'm for ending the government handouts altogether. Let's get behind that. 

But I'm somewhat cautious in this economy. There are an awful lot of hardworking people that have been forced into taking these handouts because they can't find work. And yes, while there ARE minimum wage jobs available, in most cases (and particularly if you don't live in a big urban environment with cheap public transportation), it costs you more to hold down a minimum wage job than it does to not work.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

Ernie said:


> ... There are an awful lot of hardworking people that have been forced into taking these handouts because they can't find work. ...


I don't think anyone is 'forced' into taking handouts. I'm pretty sure you have to apply for them. It is a choice.


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## kudzuvine (Aug 11, 2011)

Well I guess I stirred up a hornet's nest - which wasn't my intention. When writing the article for the paper, I found it interesting what was said about youth wondering the streets, crime, etc. I know that where I live near national forest with crop lands surrounding, they did do a lot of good with erosion, planting trees, etc. because so many farms had been abandoned. There's no right answer. I strongly feel, like all of you on this site, we need to be ready to take care of ourselves - no matter what happens. Let's keep doing what we're doing and share our support and ideas with each other and I'm glad to know all of you are out there......Janet


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

logbuilder said:


> I don't think anyone is 'forced' into taking handouts. I'm pretty sure you have to apply for them. It is a choice.


True. That is true. I guess forced isn't the right word.

Let me put it another way.

There are a lot of people who didn't prepare, either in terms of finances, goods, gardening skills, or practical labor skills ... and they suddenly found that they were of NO VALUE to the corporate world.

When they found themselves in that situation, they could not think of anywhere to turn OTHER than the government's handouts. 

I'm always finicky about calling everyone on welfare a loser, a taker, a thief, or whatever the current denigration is. There are people on this very forum who are receiving welfare but are trying to learn their way out of that system, and I absolutely applaud their efforts and wish to help them in any way possible.

I think most people are aware that, sooner or later, the handouts have to cease. And what then?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2013/09/18/bill-would-require-michiganders-to-work-for-welfare/

It appears, in Michigan, you're now going to be required to do community service in order to continue receiving welfare benefits.

How does that work, exactly? Much of the food stamp program is money that comes from the Federal government. What right does an individual state have to get in between the Fed and the receiver of those Federal funds?


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

I saw that same piece this morning Ernie and marveled (maybe not the right word) at the use of "required" and "volunteer" in the same sentence.


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## credee (Aug 17, 2013)

quit WASTING a trillion $ a year on a worthless military and spy establishment. quit wasting a trillion $ a year,letting 20 million illegals steal jobs here and live off of our taxes (counting "amnesties" and those whose illegal mother dropped them here) quit WASTING a trillion $ a year on "free" medical care for people so messed up that they'll NEVER get better. 

Quit wasting a trillion $ a year on people who SHOULD have been saving for their own retirement needs (or else suicide and quit being a burden on everybody else). stop wasting a trillion $ a year on corporate welfare, including farms and ranches. Quit WASTING a trillion $ a year on stupid drug laws, enforcement of same, and on prosecution of those who steal and fight over the profit you PUT INTO drugs, because they are illegal.

Presto. Now you have the money needed to get rid of the national debt, QUICKLY, and saving the interest on THAT means another trillion or so $ per year saved. Use that savings to teach the kids needed skills and DISCIPLINE. Also, use some of it to pay young women to get sterilized and SEAL OUR BORDERS. Put employers of illegal aliens on national tv, 24-7, as they get horsewhipped nearly to death,and SEE how many of the illegals don't leave!


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> The optimal idea, would be a workfare system, rather than welfare. In other words, if you are receiving welfare funding in any form of state or federal assistance, you should have to work so many hours a week in public service.


http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3677



> Such beliefs are starkly at odds with the basic facts regarding social programs, the analysis finds. Federal budget and Census data show that, in 2010, 91 percentof the benefit dollars from entitlement and other mandatory programs went to the elderly (people 65 and over), the seriously disabled, and members of working households. People who are neither elderly nor disabled &#8212; and do not live in a working household &#8212; received only 9 percent of the benefits.


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## credee (Aug 17, 2013)

STOP letting in unskilled immigrants. INSTEAD, actively RECRUIT medical and other key personnel! WHY pay some MD a million $ a year, when you can get the same skill level for 100k per year, by bringing him from overseas? Why pay nurses 60k a year, when you can get them for 20k a year, etc? Why bother to pay 1/2 million $ to educate and raise a kid, when you can get the (trained, disciplined) adult for the cost of a plane ticket?

we do NOT need the fruit picker types. Fruit and veggies are such a small part of our diet that if the cost of gathering/moving them TRIPLED, it would not increase our food per year expense $1000, a lousy $20 per week. yet to get rid of the crowding, pollution, crime and waste is worth 10x that much. We can make (in the US) machines that pick the crops, run by US personnel. what the point of "saving" 1k per year on food, then wasting 10k a year on undesirables and overpaid medical and other 'high tech" people, hmm?


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

Ernie said:


> http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2013/09/18/bill-would-require-michiganders-to-work-for-welfare/
> 
> It appears, in Michigan, you're now going to be required to do community service in order to continue receiving welfare benefits.
> 
> How does that work, exactly? Much of the food stamp program is money that comes from the Federal government. What right does an individual state have to get in between the Fed and the receiver of those Federal funds?


There are several assistance programs. Some fed and some state. The requirement you speak of was from this Michigan bill.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2013-2014/billengrossed/Senate/htm/2013-SEBS-0276.htm

If you read the bill, it applies to people on the "PATH" program which is a state program, not federal.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

logbuilder said:


> There are several assistance programs. Some fed and some state. The requirement you speak of was from this Michigan bill.
> 
> http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2013-2014/billengrossed/Senate/htm/2013-SEBS-0276.htm
> 
> If you read the bill, it applies to people on the "PATH" program which is a state program, not federal.


Ah. That explains it. So a person's fed benefits would not be impacted but they could lose part of their Michigan bennies.

I'll trust you on the bill. No way I'm reading that.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

The federal food stamp program is now called SNAP. In it there are requirements that if your are an ABAWD (Able-Bodied Adult Without Dependents) you may have to work. It has been that way for a while. However Obama has suspended that requirement in about 45 states.
Here is information on SNAP:

http://massresources.org/snap-work-requirements.html

From SNAP documents:

Generally ABAWDS between 18 and 50 who do not have any dependent children can get SNAP benefits only for 3 months in a 36-month period if they do not work or participate in a workfare or employment and training program other than job search. This requirement is waived in some locations. 
With some  exceptions, able-bodied adults between 16 and 60 must register for work, accept suitable employment, and take part in an employment and training program to which they are referred by the local office. Failure to comply with these requirements can result in disqualification from the Program.


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

Dixie Bee is exactly what I've been saying.

If someone wants/needs a welfare check, they should be working part-time for government projects to "earn" it. Since it's part-time, they still have plenty of time to find a "real job" other than the government check. The jobs would be things that perhaps illegal immigrants do now. Or paperwork in offices about those jobs. Or daycare for the people getting the handouts that are out doing the other work.

So it's not taking many paid jobs(illegals would not have the work anymore too, maybe easier to get them out of the country), the people ON welfare have incentive to find a real job(they don't like digging ditches, picking fruit, babysitting, etc), and it doesn't really cost much more than handing out the checks(the system that's in place now) for NO work or effort on the part of the "needy" people.

Save some money, get people off the easy-welfare-free-money, and get some decent work done, while discouraging illegal immigrant labor.

It's not "forced labor" that way either, you'd still go apply for the welfare, you'd just be doing some work to earn that welfare check. You're not locked up in a camp, or forced to be someplace. Just like a regular job, you can walk off anytime you want. You just don't get your check.

Pipe dream? Probably. It solves too many issues.


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## siberian (Aug 23, 2011)

any of these camps were around people and in the city. Public Parks and road were built by them. They were not as successful as once thought. They did pick up the economy for a short time, but financial repercussions followed.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Wolfy-hound said:


> Dixie Bee is exactly what I've been saying.
> 
> If someone wants/needs a welfare check, they should be working part-time for government projects to "earn" it. Since it's part-time, they still have plenty of time to find a "real job" other than the government check. The jobs would be things that perhaps illegal immigrants do now. Or paperwork in offices about those jobs. Or daycare for the people getting the handouts that are out doing the other work.
> 
> ...


See post #33


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## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

Wolfy, I absolutely agree. I also think anyone on any form of welfare should have to pass a weekly wiz quiz.
Tiempo, not that I disagree with you, but I disagree with you. Hmmm, ok, guess I do.
Sure there are some elderly who are on public assistance, but there are also a whole lot of able bodied men AND women who are drawing public assistance money just because they are lazy. And 100 to 1 that most of them have an Obama bumper sticker.

Just remember this when posting statistics, most are false, and anyone can make any statistics mean anything they want them to.
Prime example. Since 24% of all motor vehicle accidents are caused by drunk drivers, everyone should drink and drive, because those statistics show that 76% of all motor vehicle accidents are causrd by people who are Not drunk.

See my point? Lol.


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## backwoods (Sep 12, 2004)

From what I've read, CCC camps were only for young "single" men, who's family was receiving "assistance" and the majority of their "pay" was sent home to their family. Only a small amount (like $5 out of the $30 monthly pay) was given over to the person working. From what I understood, the heavy equipment operator's and the "brains" behind the operation, were Army Corps of Engineer workers, and it was overseen by the military. The union bosses were upset that training might take place in the ccc camps and were vehemently opposed to them, because they would be taking jobs of "out of work" union members. Is that not correct? I also read they could only sign up for the ccc for a maximum of 2 yrs. Then what? Of course we know now that the program was ended when we became involved in WWII, but if we hadn't been, then what? I don't see how it would've solved anything long term.

Ernie, I'd say a $400 saddle blanket qualifies as a "luxury item." As I hope we can agree, it's not in the same category as necessities such as underwear, jeans, or human food, no matter how beautifully made it is. "Luxury items" are the first thing to go, when the general populace have to tighten their belts to make ends meet. It's only when people feel secure that they're going to have that job/pay check next month or next year, that most are willing to turn loose of the money for splurging on such items. The people around here are giving away horses because they can't feed them, let alone buy a nice saddle blanket. Many who were in construction have been out of work for a long while, except for an occasional small job they can pick up. Nobody is building houses, because the market is flooded with foreclosure homes. Many of those foreclosed homes, should've never been financed for the owner's to begin with, because they couldn't really afford them. They were overpriced, nothing down, just move in and take over the payments, which were often close to half of their take home pay. Not too many people can make that work, especially with a family. Greedy lender's & unrealistic buyer's helped make the big bubble pop. I don't pretend to know what the whole answer is, but having the US manufacture our own goods would create jobs again. I don't think a CCC would help anything long term.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

backwoods said:


> Ernie, I'd say a $400 saddle blanket qualifies as a "luxury item." As I hope we can agree, it's not in the same category as necessities such as underwear, jeans, or human food, no matter how beautifully made it is.


I completely agree. I could never afford one.

BUT ... the skills are still there. The old economy is waiting, dormant, and kept alive through those high-priced luxury items. I would bet anything she can still make clothing, or at least turn out wool cloth that someone else can cut into clothing.

I'd say on this forum there are a lot of people who enjoy knitting, weaving, basketmaking, pottery, or some other such hobby. Those hobbies used to be _real professions_. The thing you do in your spare time for fun, used to feed whole families.

It's sleeping, but it's still there ... that old economy. It's waiting for the cheap-crap-from-China to stop coming in and for Adam Smith's insanity to die out. 

When that happens, those $400 saddle blankets will return in a more practical form, and I bet you won't be trading dollars for them, but rather your own craftsmanship or a bushel of potatoes.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

Ernie said:


> It's sleeping, but it's still there ... that old economy. It's waiting for the cheap-crap-from-China to stop coming in a*nd for Adam Smith's insanity to die out. *


The part bolded I don't quite understand. Please explain.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

logbuilder said:


> The part bolded I don't quite understand. Please explain.


Much of what he wrote about in _Wealth of Nations_ is fine and accurate. The invisible hand of the market does exist, and yes, all economies are essentially being bound together by individual self-interest.

But industrialism latched on to a couple of key pieces of his philosophy and would not let go, to the detriment of all humanity.

I'll give you two examples:

*1.* Adam Smith said that you should spend your time doing whatever you can make the most money at. As that translates, a lawyer who can earn $300 an hour should not bother to mow his lawn when he can pay someone $20 to do it. 

But the insanity comes in where our society has taught the young that it is disgraceful to mow your own lawn. You're not doing well UNLESS you pay someone else to do it. Never mind if you like doing it or not. It also leaves no room for small craftsmen to pursue their crafts when they could be making more money (at least in the beginning) working for the corporations. And finally, it leaves the lawyer _unable_ to do anything but be a lawyer. He's a partial man. He doesn't know how to mow his lawn, fix his plumbing, milk a goat, or anything else. 

*2. *In his book, Adam Smith describes how efficiencies are gained by not switching between tasks. This has led to the dehumanizing assembly lines in factories where, instead of being a chair maker, workers each do _one step_ of the perhaps 70 steps it takes to make one chair. A man can be proud of making a nice chair, but what man can be proud of bolting the left leg on 400 stools?


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## NamasteMama (Jul 24, 2009)

Yeah we will have CCC's again, Civilian Concentration Camps........ :TFH:


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## BMCC (Oct 2, 2012)

backwoods said:


> The CCC only employed unmarried men 18-25 and they weren't "trained" to do anything but manual labor. The labor unions saw to that, as there were many union members out of work.
> 
> William Green, head of the American Federation of Labor, was taken to the first camp to demonstrate that there would be* no job training involved* beyond simple manual labor... according to Wikipedia.


I still have my fathers CCC identification card; on it his job title was listed as " Tractor Driver". He went on to survive all the major battles in the Pacific during WWII and spent his working career after that as a union carpenter.

There is a huge amount of infrastructure and improvements throughout this country that was created by the CCC and WPA and the young men in those programs that is still in existence today.


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## backwoods (Sep 12, 2004)

I agree, their works were exemplary! I drive across a bridge nearly every day that has a carving in the stone support walls underneath that says "Built by the WPA." The county redid the upper bridge parts a few years ago, but they left that stone work. I was so glad they did. Its a part of history!

Ernie, for some reason you talking about building that chair reminded me of the scene from "The Patriot" where Benjamin Martin was trying to build a "decent chair" and it kept falling over, and he just couldn't get it quite right. I guess some of us just weren't meant to be able to build a chair from start to finish...LOL I AM ONE OF THOSE!  But I do get your point. Sometimes I think...bring it on!


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

I loved that chair scene myself.

I think that there's space for both kinds, the chairs made in mass assembly line by unskilled hands(not completely unskilled, just unable to build the whole chair themselves) and the handmade chairs made by craftsmen. Because there's plenty of folks wanting the gorgeous furniture made by a artisan but also a lot of folks who just need some cheaper chairs.

I always thought the projects were more to get public works done and train unskilled young men... but I never looked into too much. I never thought the men were held in camps against their will, although work camps so they could stay close by the projects makes sense(not like prisons, more like the migrant worker housing?).


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## kudzuvine (Aug 11, 2011)

Against their will? Not down here. It was a way to get much needed work done in forestry areas, men were trained and paid. They lived in barracks - they built. The one on my place held 200 men from Mississippi and some from TN and AL. I wish I could get the pic posted to show the camp. They also assisted in community fire fighting (no fire depts. at that time), search and rescue, etc. which is documented. It was work that needed to be done and pay that was much more needed for these men and their families.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Many years ago I had the pleasure of knowing a guy who had been in the CCC.
As he said . . .He was young and like so very many other northern Michigan people found out, NO jobs were available. He severed his time in the CCC and was indeed the kind of person who you would want as a neighbor.

Some one here needs to do some research on FDR. . . .He knew ahead of time of what was to be at Pearl Harbor... . . . .FDR knew that the Pearl Harbor event would be the way to instantly get this country into the war mode---and thus lifting this country up from the Depression problems.

Back in the CCC days I would bet they had little more than a shotgun in each camp.

Today I can see them having large SWAT teams to attempt to control those gang banger youth that think Rap is music...........
Getting anything useful out of this generation of thugs would not be feasible.
Look at the pictures of the guard towers and razor wire fences of todays **camps** and truthfully tell me "This is a good thing"

Yes there is still evidence here in northern MI of the many good things that a good program --of its time-- accomplished.


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## haunted (Jul 24, 2011)

I cannot manage to operate the quotes today, but Backwoods is correct in the first paragraph of post #42. My uncle was in the CCC. They only learned manual labor, but at the time he was grateful for the work. His parents and younger siblings needed the money, and he needed some money too. They were on lockdown in the camps and only allowed passes about once a month. He always said the camps were really just getting young men used to the idea of restrictions of personal freedoms so they would be easier to train when the war started. He always maintained WWII was already in the government plans when the CCC was started. 
He and the other CCC workers were among the first drafted after Pearl Harbor. He fought extensively in the European Theater of WWII. And he always said he would fight to the death to keep his sons from ever having to experience what he did. But I digress.


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