# Alpine or Saanen



## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

We want to add variety to our Nubian herd. Can you tell me what the good and bad points of these two breeds are in your experience or to your knowledge?


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

I've had both. I preferred the Saanen to tell you the truth unless we are talking about Oberhasli which is a type of (swiss) alpine. The alpine were more friendly but kind of had a "valley girl" personality if that makes sense. At least the Saanan knew they were goats. Plus that pretty white just blends in well with the dogs.
I really do like the Oberhasli. They are my favorite breed. They use to be called Swiss Alpine, but the name was changed. They are just a red alpine type goat. They have a very friendly personality too, and are easy to milk. They just seemed smarter than the French Alpine, but that is just my opinion. They were easier to handle and not as pushy.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Saanens are very calm and give more milk.


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

If you cross a Nubian with a Saanen can you get pretty colors? (Yes I am serious LOL!) 

The Obers sound nice too but they seemed really hairy in the pics and I was thinking it would be hard to keep them clean for milking?

Thanks you two!


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

ANYTHING you cross with a Saanen comes out white or almost white. White Saanen genetics is DOMINANT. Very.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I shave all udders and bellies (and up around the girl parts) before the goats kid in the spring. Udders are periodically shaved all milking season.


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## Zilli (Apr 1, 2012)

ne prairiemama said:


> If you cross a Nubian with a Saanen can you get pretty colors? (Yes I am serious LOL!)


In my experience, if you breed _anything_ to a Saanen, regardless of the color, you are going to get........_white_ (or, as in the case of one of my Samanchas, a very light shade of tan). LOL

Years ago, a little agouti pygmy doe that I have (she's 12 or 13 now) got mysteriously bred. I didn't realize she had gotten bred until it was physically obvious. 

Anyway, I had two bucks at that time - a pygmy and a Saanen - and they hadn't gotten out, so all I can figure is "Muffin" got bred through the five foot high cattle panel.

So, I kept my fingers crossed that "Bucky," the pygmy bred her and not "Jack," the Saanen.

The big day came and I was at work when my son called me to tell me Muffin was having her babies - and that they were Jack's.

I told my son, "No way!"

My son said, "Mom, they're all white."

She had four healthy pure white babies - three bucklings and a tiny little doeling.

As far as which breed is better, Alpine or Saanen, I can only speak for the Saanen since I have never had an Alpine (except for a bottle baby I bought at the sale who didn't live) - and as far as I'm concerned, there is nothing "bad" about Saanens. 

Saanens are all good. Good temperament and good producers, hardy and healthy (I have a Saanen doe who will be fifteen in a few months).


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I shave all udders and bellies (and up around the girl parts) before the goats kid in the spring. Udders are periodically shaved all milking season.


Do you think that would keep most of the Ober hairs out? Have you hadthem also Alice? What do you think of them?


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

Wow Zilli! 15?! Neat  

Thanks for that story lol. You two have totally cured me of the hope of a polka dotted Saanen mix


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## Zilli (Apr 1, 2012)

ne prairiemama said:


> You two have totally cured me of the hope of a polka dotted Saanen mix


Nope. No polka dots.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I didn't care for the one Oberhasli goat that I've seen in person. Their elbows look funny to me, as if they are connected to the body in the wrong place.

Real registered Oberhaslis are a bit uncommon in the U.S.

http://albc-usa.org/cpl/oberhasli.html

http://www.oberhasli.us/


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Only listed breeder in Nebraska:

Jennifer Schram
New Dreams
Plattsmouth, NE
(402)980-4450
[email protected]
DHI LA Buck Service
Kid-Semen Sales


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## LoneStrChic23 (Jul 30, 2010)

I prefer Alpines..... Love their temperments, their will to milk, production & of course, the wide variety of colors. 

All your swiss breeds (Saanens, Sables, Alpines, Obers & Toggs) will be more hairy in winter.... They aren't sleek coated like Nubians. I just keep bellys & udders trimmed. 

I like color surprises at kidding time..... You could also look into Sables, which are the colored variety of Saanens...


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

Thank you!! Where did you get your Saanens? Maybe I will just stick with the Alpines or Saanens. Saanens sound really nice. I just wish they could be polka dotted LOL!

I want lots of milk, good temper & hardy sounds great!


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Saanens have always bored me - plain white all the time? Makes it easier to choose for conformation and not be affected by color... but that's about it.  

I like my alpines. A bit of variety here and there never hurt anybody. One of my does is sleek-haired, the other is fuzzier - but neither are longer haired, some can get quite long hair on their shanks, sides, and dorsal. They're all a bit different. But, I shave udders on dairy does no matter what, so it's not a big deal. One doe does have teat hair, while the other doesn't. Quite interesting, they're half sisters.


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## Manchamom (May 18, 2003)

When you pick out your Saanen try to find one that has a lot of black polka dots on her ears and face. It is acceptable and registerable to have these. Why? Well, I had a Saanen buck that had numerous noticable black spots on his ears and face and I used him over Nubian does. 3 times I got a white baby with plum sized black spots scattered all over them. I also quite a few pink babies.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

~smiles~ While they aren't COMMON here in the U.S., there IS an Alpine color called "Pied or Spotted", so you CAN get spotty Alpines.

I adore my Alpines. Friendly, sweet, and terrific producers. I love their even temperaments, how easy it is to train them to the milkstand, but how their personalities are different enough, and their colors are different enough, that I don't have to try to tell them apart by their udders! (There was a thread on that a while back, called "You know you are a Saanen owner..."

My herd has different personalities. Yaiza is sweet and quiet, her idea of "affection is standing nearby in case you feel the need to pet a goat. Nipper wants to mother everyone; whatever you are doing, she feels the need to be right there and lick your neck, because you obviously didn't get it clean enough. LuluBelle wants her head scratched, a lot. No, you aren't done yet, more! Princess just wants to be near you, lay her head in your lap, and bat her extra-long eye-lashes at you. Cypress is blonde, she never gets anything "right", but she is also housebroken and is petitioning to become a house goat. Even though she is SO Valley Girl, it has not escaped her notice that houses contain FOOD.

Each one is different. Different colors, different personalities; but they all produce wonderfully and are good girls on the milk stand.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

My Saanens are calm and well tempered. They seem to be much more sweet-always kissy kissy. 
My Alpines are far more Type-A and less tolerant of kisses. That's a big one for me-gotta give and get lots of goat kisses!  
But my most favorite goat is my Saanen/LaMancha X. The breeder she came from no longer breeds them but boy I'd like a few more. I just don't know where around here I can get my hands on a LaMancha buck! Of course that probably has to do with her being the first goat I ever milked and since she's a bit of a loner-she loves me. Or she tolerates me. I give her MUCHO kisses! SO came out one night to find me in a slight wine induced state after a girl's night out, slobbering all over Oma in the milk stand. Had to milk the goat no matter how much wine I had and she was a good sport - as long as she had her vittles!


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

I have saanens so I'm biased.

But here are the differences I see. 

First saanens on average give more milk. I belive this to be because saanens are white.

With alpines as many have confirmed in this thread there is always the tendency to select for color rather than utility so that is why saanens are at the top of the heap milk wise.

Also Alpine breeders a lot of them tend not to really milk their goats much. Call 4 saanen breeders and 4 Alpine breeders in December or January. Chances are that your alpine breeder will have nobody milking but the saanen breeders will have does in milk. You can often even do this in Oct/Nov. You will have alpine breeders who only milk their goats 5 months.

Next is temperment. Maybe it's just the strains I have been around and not a breed thing but my friends who have raise alpines have always had way more abortions and other health problems related to fighting with their alpines.

Next is hardiness my friends with Alpines always seemed to spend more money on vet bills, like the alpines were not as hardy.

Next is milk flavor, I've known alpines that had great milk, but more than a coincidental number have had stronger milk than a saanen, nubian or Lamancha. Not as bad as Togg milk but enough that if I ever bought one I'd want to taste the milk of all immediate relatives.

I'm not saying that there are not Alpines with good milk, mellow personalities, and that are easy keepers. I'm just saying that from the ones I've been around, which is a few, they are not as good as saanens in those areas.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Saanens produce more because they have been bred to be the "Holstein" of the goat milk industry.


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## crazy4equines (Apr 15, 2012)

Oberhasli's have the same length of hair as a Saanan, Alpines and nubians. Here is a pic of my reg. oberhasli and I have to agree I love their quite personaility and they are very personable to. I have crossed my saanan to a oberhasli and and I got a cream colored goat, I will post a picture of the baby as well.

This is the only pic that I can find of my oberhasli and saanan cross as we sold him, don't mind the big orange spot on his side as that is just iodione that spilled.









And her is my Oberhasli doe


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

If you look at ADGA's Top Ten breed leaders in milk production, the TOP producing doe in 2011 was a Saanen, at 6080lbs for the year.

However, below that one, Top doe, the Alpines produced more than the Saanens. The Number 2 Saanen in the country produced 4760lbs of milk for the year, while the Number 2 Alpine doe for the year produced 5480lbs for the year. And on down. The Number 3 Alpine produced more than the Number 3 Saanen, etc.

Alpines are THE most popular breed for commercial goat dairies in the country. If you walk into 6 goat dairies, 4 of them will be full of Alpines. 1 will have Saanens, and 1 will have Nubians (for cheese production).

I have never had bad tasting milk from an Alpine. I have had bad tasting milk from most other breeds (except Lamanchas, I haven't had Lamancha milk), but never from an Alpine. Of course, bad tasting milk comes from ill-managed goats. Due to their consistent color, it is harder to tell when a Saanen is mineral deficient, or has a high worm load. 

I have had two Alpines that went to the vet. One was for an accident. The other was a kid that I bought that came with coccidia and I needed some antibiotics for him. That is it. All of the Alpines I have, and that was the only two vet visits I have had.

Of my alpines, one is being dried off next month, she produced 14lbs per day during half of her cycle. She is currently bred, which is why she is being dried off next month. The 2 FF's, who are still producing over a gallon per day, will milk through the winter. They will not be re-bred this fall. I haven't had any problems getting an Alpine to milk through the winter. I haven't had any problems getting a Nubian or a Nigerian Dwarf to milk through the winter, either. 

When it comes to hardiness, both Saanens and Alpines are NOT considered hardy breeds. Nigerian Dwarfs are the hardiest. Nubians are a close second. Saanens and Alpines tend to be lumped together at the bottom of the pack in hardiness. However, oddly, considering their white color, Saanens do not handle hot summers as well as Alpines. Alpines deal better with the summers found in the Grain Belt (Kansas, Nebraska, even down here in Texas) better than Saanens. Saanens fair a bit better in exceptionally cold, wet winters, like those found in Maine, Minnesota, Great Lakes Regions, and the NorthWest.

Now, saying all of that...... AMERICAN Alpines are bred for production and temperament. Mine do not fight. I have not had a single instance of abortion due to fighting. Mine are mellow, sweet, and give wonderful, abundant milk. And while they ARE Americans, there has not been a grade goat in my bloodlines since 1973. This is true of a lot of breeders of American Alpines.

Which leads me to wonder. Hollowdweller, do your friends raise French (purebred) Alpines? Because the French (purebloods) are NOT bred for production, except for a few lines (Redwood Hills has a line of production-bred Frenchies, as did Pearl Valley, and one nice lady here in Austin...). I have found French Alpines to be terribly inbred, not very good producers, and more than somewhat frail. Among Alpine people, everyone knows that the PB herd books were closed too soon, and that meant a severe deficiency in the gene pool. That is also why you don't see discrimination against Americans among Alpine people, which does not hold to be true for any other breed of dairy goat besides LaManchas (whose PB herdbook is still open). Among other dairy breeds, Nubian, Toggenburg, Nigerian Dwarf, etc., Americans are considered nothing better than upstart bush goats. With Alpines, the Americans are often preferred. I haven't seen a PB Alpine in the Top 10 producers since 2008, and then it was only one.

So, everything negative that you have said about Alpines I can agree with, IF you are talking about PB French Alpines. Except for a small handful of breeders, PB's are bred for conformation and color, for the show circuit, NOT for production, hardiness, will to milk, and temperament.

American Alpines, though, are the workhorses of the dairy goat industry.


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

CaliannG said:


> Which leads me to wonder. Hollowdweller, do your friends raise French (purebred) Alpines?



I'm talking about about 10 difft breeders or more, so both. The best ones I've been around came from mostly Coach Farms stuff. Mamm Key, the ones I've been around were also very good. 

The worst ones Cherry Glen, Stump Hollow, Tempo. 

Actually the best milkers and most hardy were the French this homesteading family had raised for 30 years. They didn't milk what the Coach Farms did but they got close. But they were the biggest fighters.



> However, below that one, Top doe, the Alpines produced more than the Saanens. The Number 2 Saanen in the country produced 4760lbs of milk for the year, while the Number 2 Alpine doe for the year produced 5480lbs for the year. And on down. The Number 3 Alpine produced more than the Number 3 Saanen, etc


Top 10 isn't a good indicator. You want to go to the BREED AVERAGES













> With Alpines, the Americans are often preferred. I haven't seen a PB Alpine in the Top 10 producers since 2008, and then it was only one.


Same with Saanens. When I first got into goats nobody liked Americans around here. Now purebreds are almost dying out. 


That's great you haven't had any of the problems I described with yours. Remember that I said that was my experience it wasn't an indictment of all alpines


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## cmharris6002 (Jan 27, 2006)

I love my Sable Saanens!! They milk over 2 gallons a day, have a sweet calm temperament and get along great with my Nubians :clap: If you decide to go with Sables, I'm in North East Kansas


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## copperpennykids (Sep 6, 2004)

Saanens are great.

Affectionate, regal, (they aren't called the Queens of Dairy Goats just because of the large amount of milk that they give!) and easy keepers.

We live here in North Idaho - we don't have to shave our girls to milk them. Generally speaking they have a fairly short and smooth coat. They handle our winters just fine - so very hardy. Strong will to milk, love to be milked, live to be milked. They are easy going, so very little fighting and they are quiet. We usually "hear" a gentle mmm-mm-mmmm? when we are late for milking, otherwise, not noisy. They love their kisses - one won't leave the milk room until she gets her kiss.  They also love routine - milking order is the milking order, they always go to their milk stand, and they are incredibly easy to train to the milk stand - maybe 2 or 3 days and they stand rock solid. We can even go out and milk ours in the pasture and they will just stand there for you, without being tied.

Did I mention that we really really like Saanens? LOL

PS There was a "survey" done once, asking folks what was their favorite X with goats - lots of different answers, but the common factor was a Saanen crossed with each breed - Saanen X Nubian, Saanen X LaMancha, Saanen X Alpine, etc. Snubians seemed to be the overall big favorite.


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## IndyGardenGal (Apr 5, 2009)

When it comes down to it, see what you have close to you and/or in your budget that comes from good, healthy stock.

That said, I loved my Saanens.


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

Add me to the I LOVE MY SAANENS List!!

My doe is the sweetest and most gentle doe I'd ever want to meet! She comes when called and she hops on the stand like a pro. I let her out to nibble on weeds around the farm adn she never runs off or acts doofy like my Boer does. 

I also have two Snubians. (Saanen x Nubian). They're pretty neat, too, but a bit more flighty. They get spooked easier when they're out doing my weed whacking. But those EARS! I love those airplane ears! They look like they can take flight at any second!


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

cmharris6002 said:


> I love my Sable Saanens!! They milk over 2 gallons a day, have a sweet calm temperament and get along great with my Nubians :clap: If you decide to go with Sables, I'm in North East Kansas


Are the black and white and cream colored ones Sable Saanens? Those are VERY pretty! We are in SE Nebraska so we can't be too far from you :dance:

Thanks everyone! I'm enjoying reading all of these comments so much!


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

I wanted to add that I personally think Saanen milk tastes much better than nubian, and honestly, even better than the alpine. I've never been super fond of nubian milk though.


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## ani's ark (May 12, 2012)

Only ever had the one milker, a Saanen, and she has been wonderful as a pet and production animal, my first goat. Super placid and sweet natured. Quite regal - that's a good description. Interestingly though, her first kid was a single buckling - a British Alpine cross. And he was black with white face stripes - definite Alpine markings, out of a Saanen mother. He had loads more character, much more smoochy, and also a lot more vain and pushy at times. He would have made someone a great pet.


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## cmharris6002 (Jan 27, 2006)

> Are the black and white and cream colored ones Sable Saanens? Those are VERY pretty! We are in SE Nebraska so we can't be too far from you


Sables can be any color but mine are black and white and cream colored :bowtie:


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

mekasmom said:


> I wanted to add that I personally think Saanen milk tastes much better than nubian, and honestly, even better than the alpine. I've never been super fond of nubian milk though.


Me either. I dislike nubians all around, lol. I have zero idea why they're as popular as they are.  

I wouldn't mind Saanens if I had some other breed too... Just all white seems 'boring'. I have always liked Sables. The majority of the ones I"ve seen are sundgau pattern, which I've always thought was lovely.


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

cmharris6002 said:


> Sables can be any color but mine are black and white and cream colored :bowtie:


Ooooh neato! THAT I could get used to lol! Do you test for the goatie diseases and all that? Will you have any for sale this spring? About how much would you charge? Maybe I should pm you lol.


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## cmharris6002 (Jan 27, 2006)

I test through Biotracking and will send out samples later this month To verify pregnancy and yearly CAE testing. So far, I have never owned a goat that has ever tested positive for CAE :clap:

I will have kids to sell from these three does so pm me if you are interested


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

If you have Nubians and are going to interbreed the new breed with them, get Saanens. Breeding intelligent, naughty drama queens (Alpine X Nubian) isn't such a hot idea IMHO. I've never seen an animal of that cross that I liked, although I suppose they exist. Saanen-Nubian crosses, on the other hand, have the potential to have the best of both breeds, high butterfat plus improved production and a calmer, quieter disposition. 

I say this as an Alpine enthusiast, by the way....


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

cmh I'll pm you after Sabbath to find out more! (we keep Sabbath sunset fri to sunset sat)


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

The good thing about Saanens being all white: they are being bred for production and quality, not color patterns and spots!


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

chamoisee said:


> If you have Nubians and are going to interbreed the new breed with them, get Saanens. Breeding intelligent, naughty drama queens (Alpine X Nubian) isn't such a hot idea IMHO. I've never seen an animal of that cross that I liked, although I suppose they exist. Saanen-Nubian crosses, on the other hand, have the potential to have the best of both breeds, high butterfat plus improved production and a calmer, quieter disposition.
> 
> I say this as an Alpine enthusiast, by the way....


Thank you  Your description gave dh and I both a good laugh too lol!


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## ani's ark (May 12, 2012)

I find the sight of a herd of pure white goats against green grass very striking and attractive. Just my biased 2c...


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## Westwood (May 13, 2002)

American alpines are the producers in our neck of the Ozarks. You can chase butter fat with breeds and feed, but when it comes down to production, Alpines prevail.


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## Westwood (May 13, 2002)

But you can show a doe on appearance and grade up. And someone should cross a brush doe with a milk buck and breed a kid with resistance to a worm load and still maintain milk production. 

Barber pole worms? We have to keep our does restrained until the day heats, and the barber pole worms got back down the plants. Betcha the brush goats don't suffer. We're so quick to isolate genes for milk production but we forget what makes our goats hardy. Breed for the perfect udder . . . . and they get so line bred that we wonder for their future. 

While I thank our ancestors in goat tending for production, I wonder if we've traded production for weakness. CAE? CL?


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## Westwood (May 13, 2002)

If you introduce an alpine into your herd, you'll soon find that that particular alpine will be the herd *****. She'll make heads or tails of what you let your goats get away with, lol And she'll be at the first of the line to be milked.


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## Zilli (Apr 1, 2012)

ani's ark said:


> I find the sight of a herd of pure white goats against green grass very striking and attractive. Just my biased 2c...


Me, too.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Westwood said:


> American alpines are the producers in our neck of the Ozarks. You can chase butter fat with breeds and feed, but when it comes down to production, Alpines prevail.


Oh, I agree....and the American Alpine lines I used to have were high butterfat (Shahena'ko Bellflower, etc). And I personally love the intelligence and mischief that comes with Alpines....they are so much more interesting and fun than goats that just act good all the time, lol....

But another thing I've noticed is that I've yet to see any breeder who has both Nubians and Alpines and is crazy for them both. Generally there's a Nubian breeder who is vexed by the Alpine in the herd, or an Alpine breeder cussing out that loud, needy Nubian. Moreover, Alpine breeders seem to have an entirely different personality and approach than Nubian breeders, and the ones I've known don't seem to get along except on a superficial, polite basis...although there are exceptions. So....is a person is awfully happy with Nubians, probably they won't appreciate my lively Alpine with the gleam in her eye, lol.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Let me first say that having had both Alpines and Saanens, I found that both breeds were not my cup of tea. Good goats, just not the ones for me. 
If I were picking between those two breeds now?? For personality, hardiness, looks, availability, production, I'd go Alpine all the way. My experience.
The Saanens were nice too, but, well they bored me.
Now, if you plan on mixing your herd of Alpines or Saanens with your herd of Nubians??
Go Saanen!!! They get along better with other breeds and the crosses are really nice.
Alpines tend to be the top dogs in any mixed herd. This can be hard on the other breeds.
Oh, and I do prefer Sable Saanens......they look like Alpines.LOL!!


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