# Weaving Question !!!



## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

I have some Brown Sheep cotton / wool yarn that is 9 epi ......

On my 4-shaft I have an 8 reed .....

Scarf for 7" width comes out to 78 total warp ends .....

If I put 78 ends in my 8 dent reed , wont it be WAY bigger than the 7" I want ?!?! 

( I used the Weavolution calculator ... it also says "width in reed is 8.4" ? )

Im just not getting something here !!! 

Is this when you are supposed to double sley the reed ?????????


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## kkbinco (Jun 11, 2010)

Your EPI is a choice to make. WPI/2 is about the tightest EPI you want for a plain weave. I'm not sure where you got 78 ends from.

You could back off to 8 EPI and use 56 ends.

9 EPI isn't in my slaying chart for an 8 dent reed

You could use 10 EPI, with 70 ends, using a slay pattern 1-1-1-2


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

This is what the calculator came up with ...... ( 78 ends ) 

Finished length of one piece
(include amount for hems) 83 inches
Quantity to weave... 1 items
Fringe length 3 inches
Sampling length 3 inches
Loom Waste	24 inches
Takeup	10 %
Length Shrinkage	10 %
Finished width of one piece 
(include amount for hems)	7 inches
Width Shrinkage 10 %
Draw-in (especially if weft-faced):	10 %
Warp Sett 9 epi
Extra ends (selvedge, floating, etc) 2 ends


Length to weave each article is:
100 inches (under tension)
91 inches (relaxed)

Width in reed is: 8.4 inches
Number of warp ends: 78

Total Warp Required: 280.8 yards (Infinity ozs.)


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## kkbinco (Jun 11, 2010)

OK, now you need a sleying pattern for your reed.

The problem is your choice of 9EPI doesn't play nice with an 8 dent reed. I can't find a pattern that will work. Is there a reason it has to be 9EPI? I notice you're using a floating selvege, which tells me you're weaving a pattern less dense than plain weave - that means you can use a sett greater than WPI/2.

Here's the chart I use for sleying patterns. I would approach the project by finding a sett I am willing to use, and fits my pattern's threading, in the chart and use that in the calculations.

Look down the 8 Dent column for a nice sett, your sley pattern will be to the left.


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

When I wrapped the yarn around a ruler , it was 18 .... /2 = 9 ...... ( thats how I came up with 9 ) 
I may have started this project on the wrong step !? I am still trying to find a pattern to use .... 

THANK YOU , I have seen that chart before, maybe now I will understand it ! So, how can I tell if a pattern will work with a certain sett ??


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## kkbinco (Jun 11, 2010)

GRIN! Welcome to the art of weaving! Part math, part esthetics.

Sley pattern for 9epi in an 8dpi reed is: 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-2

A note on MAX SETT
Your calculated max sett , 18wpi/2=9epi, is for plain weave. However, you are weaving a twill. For a four shaft twill; max sett is 18wpi * 2/3 = 12epi.

The thing is, a cloth woven at max sett tends to be stiff. Rule-of-thumb for various fabrics is to reduce from max:
5% for Firm cloth
10% for Apparel
15% for Woolens
20-25% for Draping fabrics (like scarfs!)

A sett of 9epi twill would be toward a loose draping fabric. You were right for the wrong reason! 

An observation:
Your pattern has 18 ends to it, so ideally your warp would be a multiple of 18 otherwise you'll have a partial pattern on one side. (plus 2 ends for your floating selvedge). Note that your calculated 78 ends isn't (76/18=4.22)
Let's round that 4.22 to 4.
18*4=72 ends

(72 ends + 2 selvedge) / 9 epi = 8.2" reed width. I think this will be fine as you don't get as much draw-in with a twill.


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## Osiris (Jun 9, 2010)

KKB, thanks for helping Miz Mary out. I'm a slob weaver! I hate the math part.


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## kkbinco (Jun 11, 2010)

LOL, and I tend to over think things!


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

HOLY COW .......WAY cool !! Twill vs plain weave !! 
I think IM getting this !!! I really want to learn the mechanics, so I know what the outcome will be !! 

So I will be sleying the above pattern 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-2...... with 72 ends + 2 selvage ...

That max sett chart there is a BIG help as well ......never knew that !!!! 

Now hopefully I wont beat the thing to hard - need to keep measuring the ppi as I go !!

THANK YOU  kkbinco, you are a gem !!!!!!!! Now to go start this project !!


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## Osiris (Jun 9, 2010)

Miz Mary, there are 2 kinds of plain weave (one is actually a basket weave) that you can do whenever you want on this threading.
Throw 1-3 / 2-4 for plain weave. That's a 1 over 1 under weave. 
Throw 1-2/3-4 (or 1-4/2-3) for basket. That's a 2 over 2. So you can add stripes of it whenever you want on a this threading. 

** Just a suggestion: If you're going to do hemstitching, do it on the loom! It's a lot easier under tension. Leave 4+ widths of extra weft thread when you start. Do an inch or so picks into the project then go back and do the hemstitch with the extra weft yarn, so it's done and out of the way, then of course, at the end too. Here's an easy tutorial if you need. 
http://peggyosterkamp.com/peggys-weaving-ips-tips-hemstitching/


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

Osiris, when you say " throw " 1-4 / 2-3 for basketweave , do you mean lifting 1 & 4 ( then 2 & 3 ) shafts for the pattern ?!?! SO many variables !!


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## Osiris (Jun 9, 2010)

Yes MizMary. Plain weave is alternating shafts (1+3) then (2+4). In your case you're using the table loom to you pull the levers 1-3, throw a shot, drop them and pull 2-4 and throw a shot. Try it a few time in your beginning before you start your pattern. In fact, use it to spread the warp threads after tying on. 1-3 / 2-4, 1-3 / 2-4. Go as far as you want, then start your pattern. Your pattern is 1,3,2,4....1,3,2,4, to make that twill.


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## kkbinco (Jun 11, 2010)

Will a basket weave work with the half draft at the end of the pattern? Seems to me it might cause a bit of funkiness.


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

so on this pattern, your saying it is 1,3,2,4 ........ I see that in the right side column ...... but I was assuming that on the 1, I would be
pulling levers 1 & 2..
then throw...
then pull levers 2 & 3 ....
throw ...
levers 3 & 4 .... 
throw ....
levers 1 & 4 ... 
throw .... then start over ? I was doing this from the box on the top right .... Am I reading a draft wrong ?


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## Osiris (Jun 9, 2010)

Oops sorry Miz Mary. I'm confusing you here. (I'm thinking floor loom - I'm also thinking straight twill) my bad! :facepalm:
YES, 
1st pick, you pull levers 1+2, 
2nd pick 3+4, 
3rd pick 2+3 
4th pick 1+4 and repeat....until you get bored  So it's 1-2, 3-4, 2-3, 1-4 

KKB, her pattern doesn't really _end_ per se, where it shows. It's just cut off. It's just a straight 1234 threading. 1234 IS the pattern. And there are only 4 picks to the repeat. Her scarf is 72 ends wide, not 18 like the pic. She just continues threading 1234 until she runs out of ends - Theoretically she'll start threading on first shaft and end on the 4th at the 72nd end. For this pic, yes, basket would be wonky on the left if you ended on shaft 2. But this whole pattern itself is actually just 2 alternating shots of basket weave. See what I mean?

And Miz Mary, wind yourself some room to "play" into your warp. You can experiment before you start the project. And dont' be afraid to add floating selvedges if you don't like your edges. You can always tie them on after you've started. They don't _have_ to be incorporated into the warp. But I _don't think_ you'll need them.


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## kkbinco (Jun 11, 2010)

I agree a straight draft 2/2 twill makes a lot more sense, and the 4 end pattern also changes the warp back to 78 ends including the selvedge.

What struck me, though, was the markers above the threading chart. It continues the border from the draw down area. This made me think there wasn't a clipping of a repeating pattern but that the actual end of the pattern was 1,2. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why they were there unless it was for some sort of hopsackish accent.

Have I ever mentioned I tend to over think things!


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## Osiris (Jun 9, 2010)

Hey Miz Mary! Seems every time I open my mouth I insert foot! 
I hope you're not confused on this or by the conversation. Only reason I commented is because I've been doing bunches of these 1234 threading patterns on the scarves I'm doing. It's so cool how you can get so many varieties on a simple 1234 threading. 

Seriously tho, if you have the room, play around with lever combinations with your extra warp. You'll be amazed at how the patterns change just by changing the order and combinations of the levers. But most of all have FUN! And PICS! Please :grin: Your table runner was gorgeous! Am so looking forward you seeing your work!

Oh KKB, Many times I wish my mind were so technical. I'm just self taught. I get the basics but not much of the mental/math cataloging. I'm learning the details slowly tho. 
And I REALLY miss my table loom! The possible combinations of 4 individual levers is WAY more than the 6 treadles on a floor loom can produce unless one wants to use both feet AND re-write patterns. But foot nerve damage prohibits that for me.


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

This pattern probably wont even show up , if I use 7 different yarns for the warp and weft ...... hahaaa !!! Hmmm... If I use all the same yarn in the warp , then the different ones in the weft ..... ... I bet theres a computer program that I could play with the colors to see the end results ..... 

I see what you mean kkbinco , I do more THINKING about a project than I do actually DOING the project !!!!! 

I like that idea of _playing_ with the pattern at the beginning !!


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## Osiris (Jun 9, 2010)

You're probably right MM. If u use a single color in the warp, the pattern will stand out better even if you use several colors in the weft. 

There are 2 good computer programs that are FREE to download and use. 
PCW Fiberworks
http://www.fiberworks-pcw.com/download.htm

and
Pixiloom
http://www.pixeloom.com/

I use pixiloom - just personal preference. They're both excellent programs. The free versions don't allow you to save or print. But you can 'play' and see both sides of the cloth too. 
I get around the 'print/save' problem by doing a scree capture and pasting it to a graphic viewer - then I print that. I can save it then too, as a jpeg.
You can open any 'wif' file with them too. So I've downloaded tons of wifs from handweaving.net. That way you don't actually have to manually enter the pattern onto the shafts.

There are a couple other programs too, but these two seem to provide everything you need for creating or editing a pattern. They are great tools for understanding everything. I recommend getting one.....or both. ;-)


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## Osiris (Jun 9, 2010)

Miz Mary. I was thinking about you as I started this because it's the same threading. For you it would be just a change in 'levers'. 
straight 1234 threading just like you've got, this patter produces both tabby and basket weave in the same design, making a small checkerboard pattern. 
Mine is not very pronounced and they point the other direction, but I think you can see it. The back is the same too. Just something to try if you want.


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

OH COOOOOOLLL !!!!!! THANKS Osiris !! I will download them both a play around !!!

That IS simular , I see the difference ! I cant really tell on the actual pic , but it looks kinda like ovals !


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## Osiris (Jun 9, 2010)

They are kinda like ovals MM. They're actually angular opposing "L's". Both the warp and weft do it. So the pattern is the same on both sides. To me, from a distance it looks like leopard spots! ;-) So if you've got a single color, use it for one or the other (Warp or weft) Just don't mix colors in both cuz you won't see it as well. 

Glad you're gonna get the program(s). They're a LOT of fun and very educational.


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

......these programs are ADDICTING !!!! Used single color for warp, will put the warp on later today !


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## Osiris (Jun 9, 2010)

LOL! SOOooo glad you were able to use them!


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

AKK !!! Im in the middle of threading the heddles, and I notice they are crossed up on the back beam ........ will this matter later ?!?!?! Do I have to take this all apart and re-do it on the back beam ... somehow ?????


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## Osiris (Jun 9, 2010)

As long as your cross is right you should be able to just *remove the raddle* and straighten out the threads. They may 'angle' a bit but they shouldn't twist around each other. If you're threading now you don't need the raddle any more. It's just for spreading the warp to wind on. Keep your lease sticks on and take off the raddle.

I get a few of those invariably. I think mine are from unintentionally twisting the loops when hooking them on to the warp rod. 
Just be _sure_ you're cross is good and you should be ok remove the raddle and keep threading. Always rely on the cross - if that's right, and you're threaded correctly, it should reel off ok. 

I've usually leave my lease sticks in while weaving, but i've noticed that if I have any of those twisties, it messes with the advancing of the warp. 
Leave the lease sticks in when you start to weave if you can, and that will tell you for sure if there's a problem. I've found if they get too annoying I remove the lease sticks and it frees up the tangles.


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

Oh ! cool idea to keep the lease sticks in ....... I finished threading the heddles , guess I'll take the rattle out before I thread the reed !


THANK YOU !!!!


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