# mechanical energy solutions



## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

reading in another thread of the concerns of widespread electronics failure, i began thinking of the possibility of mechanical solutions to overcome some problems to basic solar collector heating. it is nice to have solar electric power for appliances, pumps and such, but what if all of the regulation and inversion capabilities were lost? what if the solar panels themselves were rendered useless? it would be nice to rely on solar collectors to heat water and maybe a home, but it would be difficult to heat a home without fans or pumps. thermosyphoning can work to circulate water when it is heating, but it would fail to circulate hot water when needed from storage when it was not being heated. has anyone considered using totally mechanical means to circulate water? 

i can think of two methods, one far more conventional than the other. the more conventional method would be to compress air and use pneumatic pumps. perhaps a water wheel or a windmill would work for some. the former would be a constant source of energy to compress air and the latter would be more difficult, but not impossible. both may not be solutions for some folks who have access to either one.

i wonder how feasible a system of counter weights would work to power a pump? imagine a grandfather clock on a much larger scale. i wonder how well this would work simply to drive a circulator pump, perhaps even on demand or at desired temperatures, to circulate water from solar collectors or maybe even a wood furnace or compost water heater?


any thoughts?


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## Allan Mistler (Jun 1, 2004)

Meloc,
It would seem to me that if you had the availability of wind or water, you'd have the potential for low voltage DC generation and thus the benefits of simplified distribution of energy as well as the availability of replacement parts (automotive pumps, motors etc.). Though inverters and other high tech electronics is prone to fail when most needed (Murphy's second law), plain vanilla DC is pretty much immune to the disasters that could befall us in the near future.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

A lot of machines were shaft driven from horses dogs oxen etc. we have an electric wool picker and carder I couldrig up to run off a shaft. They're electric now. Lathes etc used to be shaft driven too.


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## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

This may go back to a cable TV program that shows future weapons. One of the weapons that has been or is being developed has the potential to detonate and wipe out all electrical and electronic devices. That means only mechanical devices.

Just think early 1800's and that's where we'd be. But many people build wind plants and solar panels thinking they can survive anything. If this bomb did go off these people would be in the same boat as everyone else.


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## blue gecko (Jun 14, 2006)

check out this concept:

http://www.rexresearch.com/milkovic/milkovic.htm

and this one:

http://www.hevac-heritage.org/landmark_buildings/residential/residential.htm


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

no more coments on a clockwork pump? lol


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## Runners (Nov 6, 2003)

MELOC said:


> no more coments on a clockwork pump? lol


looks like a whole lot of intermittent mechanical attention - arm power!
I like the old windmills more. Low speed, lots of torque and they worked pretty good when I was a kid.


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## Two Cents Worth (Dec 8, 2002)

Large electro magnet pulses damage electrical items.

Solution, use a grounding cage as a shield for the item. I can't remember what they are actually called, but they are like a perforated steel panel formed into a box that is placed around the desired item. It is then earth grounded to allow any EMPs to disperse to the ground.


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## Two Cents Worth (Dec 8, 2002)

I don't see why a savonius wind rotor couldn't be used to turn a pump shaft or supply other mechanical means. They seem to turn in the slightest breeze and have quite a bit of torque.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savonius_wind_turbine

They are fairly easily made from barrel halves. Offsetting three sets of barrel halves by 120Âº would maximize power. 

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Each barrel half overlaps the center shaft so that a little wind is spilled from one barrel into the opposing half.


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## Runners (Nov 6, 2003)

Two Cents Worth said:


> I don't see why a savonius wind rotor couldn't be used to turn a pump shaft or supply other mechanical means. They seem to turn in the slightest breeze and have quite a bit of torque.
> 
> They are fairly easily made from barrel halves. Offsetting three sets of barrel halves by 120Âº would maximize power.
> 
> Each barrel half overlaps the center shaft so that a little wind is spilled from one barrel into the opposing half.


I built a 4 tiered S rotor back in the early 70's - very poor results. What looked easy, just cut the barrels in half, off set them so they barely overlap... and that's about where the easy stuff ends and the headaches begun.

Balancing problems, collection of dirt, dust and debris, limited speed (some call them "self-regulating".. right...! ), flimsyness of the steel barrels created major problems, even though I had a 1.75" steel rod the entire length...

3 "cups" were not an improvement. Even with 2 cups, the trailing cup begins to block the leading cup & vice versa, the blocking problem gets worse with 3. 

A Horizontal turbine is FAR superior to a vertical turbine in energy production. water / Air pumping or electrical production.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

i was thinking one would need a constant supply of reliable energy to circulate water from a heating source where thermosyphon just was not enough. you can't rely on wind 24/7 and many folks don't have access to a stream and water wheel. so i was thinking about suspended weights driving a system that would only have to be "hand powered" 1-3 times per day. would it require a pedulum like a clock, or are there other means?


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## michiganfarmer (Oct 15, 2005)

when my mother was growing up, they had a hand water pump. they ran a pipe from the hand pump up to a tank in the attic. Water was gravity fed through the house


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## Two Cents Worth (Dec 8, 2002)

Runners said:


> I built a 4 tiered S rotor back in the early 70's - very poor results.
> 
> 3 "cups" were not an improvement. Even with 2 cups, the trailing cup begins to block the leading cup & vice versa, the blocking problem gets worse with 3.
> 
> ...


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## Runners (Nov 6, 2003)

Two Cents Worth said:


> I was also thinking tiered units offset to each other by 120Âº rather than adding more cups.
> 
> I have read that they work well on a horizontal axis since wind tends to come in waves similar to ocean waves.
> 
> Sorry your results were poor. I may have to give a unit a try. I have access to plastic barrels so would probably go that route. If they were too out of balance just grind some of the thickest parts away until balance is achieved.


I say "go for it!" I've seen hundreds of horizontial axis turbines around the country - yet, never seen a single _working_ vertical axis turbine - with the one exception of the little units used to keep ponds open in the winter or aerate in the summer. If you get it going and producing something, I'd like to see it in operation!

In my unit, roughly 1/3 of the total exposed area is useful for power generation. Even with my cup exposed to the wind every 45 degrees, and despite the nice steady 10-12 mph winds, it was basically worthless for anything other than conversation piece.

Plan on using something to stiffen the plastic barrels, even the steel ones I used flexed, creating dynamic balancing problems as the turbine speed increased - centrifical force makes everything bow outward, the cup catching the wind bows even more, now the balance problem becomes a structural integrity problem. 

I had thought a vertical axis would easier to work on than an elevated horizontal axis turbine - probably because I witnessed our water pumping wind mill self-destruct from lack of maintenance. Oh well, it was a lesson learned... It's better to climb a tower once a year, or tilt it down, than replace it at a huge expense.

IMO - the "S" rotor looks good because pictures of those weather stations have those tiny cups spinning so fast....


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## VonWolfen (May 24, 2004)

I don't know if anyone addressed your "Grandfather clock" question. I hadn't thought of using that model for pumping water, but I have addressed the use of suspended weight (the force of grandfather's clock) to run a generator or compress air. This is a very, very interesting engineering problem. In past years I worked very closely with a large group of aerospace engineers, and I gave the best of them this problem. It seemed like I couldn't get the same result from any two engineers. What seems to be the best estimate is the scale is too large for electrical generation. This essentially comes from the horsepower formula. To get usable electrical power, you would need a significant grade of 1000' or more and weight over 5000 lbs. Not undoable, but certainly a project. You would also need a rapid means of returning the weight to the top of its cycle (like pulling the chains of the clock to reset the weights). That is doable. As to compressed air, I was shocked at the volume of air required to do long term work. Again, doable, but the scale is intimidating. It seems that your problem of pumping water is much simpler and, on its face, very conceivable. It might be worth a small scale test set!


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

consider as a practical model a small pump that would simply circulate the water heated from a solar collector such as the one solargary built and told us about.


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