# Right Sizing Acreage



## mml373 (May 2, 2017)

Hi. I'm really just getting into this homesteading thing but have questions about determining the "right size" of acreage needed. I see parcels of 40 to 80 acres for sale, and really want as much land as I can afford - so as to be a bit farther away from neighbors. 80 acres is ideal, but I am concerned about management of the land. I'm buying in the midwest but not able to move from Florida till next year, so am concerned about letting the land lie fallow till next Spring.

Is there any issue, necessarily, with doing so?

Now on to the crux of my question. I want to have enough acreage for my children to run free and explore. A mix of wooded and pasture is fine, but I don't want much of the wooded part. I want to have some goats or sheep for milk and perhaps marketing wool and meat. I'd like to have chickens to sell for eggs and meat, and would like to be able to grow vegetables for family use and sale. I will be retired but need a source of extra income. Would like to sell hay and keep a little back for use by my own animals. I will have to have someone cut hay for me, as I do not wish to invest in the equipment needed to bale.

So the question is, what is reasonably doable on 40 acres...or is 80 more the right size?

Thank for useful replies.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

It depends on the location. 40 acres would do it in some places, In others, it won't be enough to keep a cow. Irrigation is also important.


----------



## CKelly78z (Jul 16, 2017)

I copy/pasted this ;
"Horse farmers are looking for good *hay*, and they're willing to pay for it. Here was the thought, on 50 *acres* you would get 100 square *bales per acre*, which is a conservative number. If we do the math, that works out to be. 100 *bales* x 50 *acres* = 5000 *bales* of *hay* for 50 *acres* of land."


If you can afford 80 acres, it would provide the room you desire.

This is assuming good weather, and healthy fields. But this isn't accounting for a 2nd, and third potential cuttings each year. You will need to reseed about every 5 years, and have to split the profits/hay with the farmer who harvests it.

You could also let the grass grow, and sell cattle hay in large round bales for less money, but also less work.

We just bought 300 small square bales of alfalfa mix for our horses at $5 a bale (which was a really good deal because of the rainy Spring), so a little math gives you a pretty decent return on hay production.


----------



## dyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

mml373 said:


> I'm buying in the midwest


What states exactly are you focused on? A lot of people might love acres of pasture and a big cattle or hay operation but if you only need a cow or 2, maybe some goats and chickens, you might be better off with more woodland and a smaller bit of grass. Pasture can be a lot to keep up with. You pay a premium, need to then get a tractor and equipment or scramble around a few times a year looking for a neighbor to cut hay... Even 20 acres of pasture here in Kentucky can be a pretty respectable amount.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Our daughter and son in law live on a little patch of 4 1/2 acres. There is room for orchards, berries, gardens, outbuildings, timber a gun range, and room to roam. No near neighbors. Just saying....
I have a brother in law who hobby farms about 25 acres in Kentucky.
He stays winters in Arizona and his son manages the place while living in the old farm house.
He originally wanted twice that much and quickly discovered the 25 acres of mostly rolling pasture was a handfull.
Hay cutting and baling equipment can be bought on the secondary market, but if you are going to hire it out, so be it.
A tractor would be an absolute must have item.
Soil testing is a must. Clay, rocky, sand, whatever, you need to know before you buy.

Now, as a newb to all this, I congratulate you on your desire to do this and your enthusiasm. Just know that you likely won't be making a lot of profit. Between crops, critters, raising and selling meat you should have plenty of revenue streams but they will mostly be erratic and minimal. Breaking even with a freezer full of meat, a pantry full of produce and an ice box full of milk is a win.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You mentioned the midwest. Pay attention to state specific issues and grow zones.
ie Illinois property taxes will curl your short hairs, and you'll feel like you have a first and second mortgage well into your coffin.


----------



## mml373 (May 2, 2017)

Dyrne, really looking into Missouri or Illinois due to wife's employment. Given Illinois' fiscal mess, the nod will probably go to MO unless we find a piece of land in IL that we can't pass up...for all reasons including affordable taxes.

Looking at the replies...wow, thanks everyone for your responses. Too many to reply to individually but I am grateful.


----------



## prinellie (Mar 16, 2016)

You will need pasture AND hay ground - and that depends on how many and what kind of animals. You will need good shelter also. And somewhere to store hay out of the weather - whether you grow it or buy it. Fences. Personally I would go for as much as you can afford. Timber is good - tax break in Iowa but you can’t run animals in it. You can be more self-sufficient by heating with wood. And sell firewood also... It won’t hurt the land to lay fallow. Good book ‘Dirt To Soil’ by Gabe Brown


----------



## prinellie (Mar 16, 2016)

mml373 said:


> Dyrne, really looking into Missouri or Illinois due to wife's employment. Given Illinois' fiscal mess, the nod will probably go to MO unless we find a piece of land in IL that we can't pass up...for all reasons including affordable taxes.
> 
> Looking at the replies...wow, thanks everyone for your responses. Too many to reply to individually but I am grateful.


Better to stick with MO. It is a no win in IL in my opinion - like CA. Property tax is super low in MO.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I have a few nephews and extended family in Illinois. Yes, taxes there are outrageous from property to fuel, etc.
Gun laws are beyond ridiculous.
175k house and ground is typically taxed about 4k or more per year.
The state sends Governors to federal prison about every other term and a long line of lower tier politicians usually follow.
Their budget is upside down on fire and they are going into a death spiral financially.
That said, the soil is typically above average. Diownstate/southern Il has some beautiful areas
But 2 counties out of 102 elect the politicians every year, so Bubba at the Il/Ky line is told how to live by the ruling class in Chicago.

Missouri taxes are about 1/4.
They do tax SS and they do have a personal property tax, but it is still a freedom and gun loving state.
I repeat, walk the ground and get a soil test before committing. I know of folks who bought 20 acres of land in the Ozarks based on Zillow pics and when they arrived after closing the soil looked like some dynamited a parking lot.


----------



## mml373 (May 2, 2017)

The more I read here and the more I think about it, the more I'm looking into Missouri, perhaps north of St. Louis or north of Springfield. And also, no animals to start...just hay...and I'll pay someone else to harvest.

Folks here talk about keeping up with 20 - 40 acres being challenging and I'm interested in knowing if they could elaborate a bit...


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The amount of acreage depends on the type, what you want to do with it, what you are physically able to do with it, and whether you are flying solo or have help. It also boils down to preference.

As stated before, I know numerous folks working 10, 15, 30 acres and it gives them everything they want, including privacy, and it keeps them busy.
We have helped family and friends make up lists of what is important to them. Say you come up with a dozen things, ie outbuildings, house with a basement, timber, close to hospital, good view, etc etc. Then you and your wife narrow it down to say 5 deal breakers. Has to have a water source, no well, cell phone service, whatever.

80 acres is good if you can find it, but don't let something slip thru your fingers over the small stuff, and just remember, you are going to need start up money for what you are considering. 
Sometimes that kitchen and bath remodel get put on the backburner because the money needs to go towards fencing and driveways.

I have a neighbor that bought 10 acres, about 8 in pasture from an old lady.
On this ten acres there is a house, a two car detached garage, a haybarn, a goat barn, a chicken coup, a barn for pigs, a shed for a cow, and a couple machine shed/junk keepers.
They currently have a cow, two horses, two dozen chickens, 6 dogs and various barn cats.
The previous owner raised goats, pigs, a couple cows for breeding and meat. He made enough to pay the bills but he also had a day job to keep their heads above water.
Upon moving in, my neighbor spent 12k for a contractor to perimeter fence, and cross fence the property. Now, this guy is retired, but he has more than enough to keep him busy every day and all day.

There is a romanticism with homesteading that is authentic. If it is the life you really want you will love it, but there is also a reality; you might spend as much slaving on a run down tar paper shack on burnt dirt as you would sitting in an air conditioned mcmansion, and the chance you may never be able to leave your place again for more than a few days, unless it is in the back of a black station wagon.


----------



## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

We have 7 acres and it keeps me more than busy enough and I am a long way from retiring.

One warning about hay. 
You need to have enough acreage for them to want and come do it (every place is different). They will always do their fields first and then eventually get around to yours. Just because they have the equipment doesn't mean they know how to make decent hay.


----------



## red1 (Jun 19, 2007)

mml373 said:


> Hi. I'm really just getting into this homesteading thing but have questions about determining the "right size" of acreage needed.


Have you ever lived n Kansas?..Or the midwest for that matter? You might think about renting or leasing for a year to get a feel for what your getting into.


----------



## Micheal (Jan 28, 2009)

A long time ago when I was looking into buying property I was told "buy as big a spread as you can cause they ain't making any more land." Once bought, if you find it's just to much you can always section off a plot and sell it.

As a side note:
My brother lives in MO, in the 3 different places he's lived at he always tried to grow a small garden. After many attempts or years of trying he now grows his garden in pots on his deck........ He's often said the "red clay" of MO beat him every time..... Personally I don't know, just passing on what he experienced......


----------



## mml373 (May 2, 2017)

red1 said:


> Have you ever lived n Kansas?..Or the midwest for that matter? You might think about renting or leasing for a year to get a feel for what your getting into.


Yes, have lived outside of St. Louis for a few years in the recent past. Plenty of cropland out that away that is productive. Two of the three properties I'm considering have recently produced hay.


----------



## red1 (Jun 19, 2007)

mml373 said:


> Yes, have lived outside of St. Louis for a few years in the recent past. Plenty of cropland out that away that is productive. Two of the three properties I'm considering have recently produced hay.


May you live long and prosper..


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I have 20 acres now in SE Michigan and wish I had more. I only cut my own fire wood off the land and hunt it. When the Kids were home it just wasn't really enough for them to roam really. But we have a creek that runs thru the place so they spent a lot of time in it getting water logged.
Many of the OLD neighbours were under standing and the kids could roam thru their wood lots picking berries and such but the new city transplants arn't so likely to all that stuff on their place.

I grew up on a 160 acre farm and land that was rented. this was the 1950's and 1960's. My brother and I could roam close to 800 acres and that was about right for us. a river down the road a bit provided lots of fishing and frogs to eat. many a swamp provided cow slips and such to eat also.

I recommend getting as much land as you can afford. You do not have to mow every blade of grass that grows on it all the time. In fact if you wish to let some lay fallow you can see about collecting a bit of Jingle from the Goverment from a CRP fund. It is also a good place for wild life to make their hiome how ever tempory it may be.

 Al


----------



## CKelly78z (Jul 16, 2017)

As far as hay storage for our horses, we use a used CONEX shipping container 40x8x9.5. It will hold roughly 300 small square bales (40-60# each), that gets loaded up in the hottest days of June. We leave the doors partially open when not raining to aid the drying effort. By Winter, it can be closed up tight, and be weatherproof. We keep all of the horse tack, and feed, along with the chicken feed in there away from weather/critters.
We bought it, and had it delivered onto the spot we wanted for $2500, you can't build a barn for that money.


----------



## mml373 (May 2, 2017)

No sooner did I fly to Missouri to look at some property than it sold the very morning before I was to go look at it.

Grrrrrr....

Methinks I'll just abandon the land search till I move up permanently next year...


----------



## Mickie3 (Aug 28, 2010)

mml373 said:


> No sooner did I fly to Missouri to look at some property than it sold the very morning before I was to go look at it.
> 
> Grrrrrr....
> 
> Methinks I'll just abandon the land search till I move up permanently next year...



Good property goes quickly, no matter where it is.


----------



## mml373 (May 2, 2017)

Mickie3 said:


> Good property goes quickly, no matter where it is.


Counting my blessings. Drove by the one I liked judging by what I saw online, yesterday, after looking at another property elsewhere. As of now, hope to close on that "other property elsewhere" soon. I think I dodged a bullet, quite honestly!


----------



## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

As far as someone else making your hay as custom work or on shares, understand that it will be on their schedule 9not necessarily what you want) and they will likely prioritize folks they've had a long standing relationship with. we are switching our hay fields to pasture (just put in another mile of field fencing) as we have never made that much money from hay over the years when all is said and done. We'll be running cattle for a freezer beef operation with a neighbor.

If you haven't written off considering Illinois, the land around Golden Eagle is beautiful. You would have to take the free ferry on the Illinois side or the pay ferry to the Missouri side to go anywhere unless you drove north up the peninsula.

Mike


----------



## mml373 (May 2, 2017)

Mike in Ohio said:


> As far as someone else making your hay as custom work or on shares, understand that it will be on their schedule 9not necessarily what you want) and they will likely prioritize folks they've had a long standing relationship with. we are switching our hay fields to pasture (just put in another mile of field fencing) as we have never made that much money from hay over the years when all is said and done. We'll be running cattle for a freezer beef operation with a neighbor.
> 
> If you haven't written off considering Illinois, the land around Golden Eagle is beautiful. You would have to take the free ferry on the Illinois side or the pay ferry to the Missouri side to go anywhere unless you drove north up the peninsula.
> 
> Mike



Thank you for your reply, Mike. I've decided the same...will be doing intensive rotational grazing on my land vs hay for sale. Putting into the soil vs taking out... Heheh. Regarding Illinois...my wife and I are closing on a property in Missouri this month.


----------

