# No Spray Fruit/nut Production



## jhambley (Nov 21, 2004)

We are interested in planting fruit trees and plant as well as nut trees on our 80 acre Kansas farm but don't want to use chemicals. Is this at all realistic? If so, what tress/plants would you suggest?

We are only 4 hours from Stark Brothers nursery so we would most likely get our stock from them.

Thanks in advance for any personal experience you can share.


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## Randy Rooster (Dec 14, 2004)

A lot of it depends upon what nuts and fruits you are attempting. In my particular location growing peaches without spray would be nearly impossible - but pears are ok and most folks that I know of with pecan trees dont spray them. Id check with Stark brothers and see what they say since they are the experts and in your area.


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

Is it that you are against the use of chemicals or is it that you don't have the time to invest in the doing of it, or a little of both? Apples are nearly impossible to grow without some sort of spray, even if it's just dormant/horticultural oil spray, which is considered an organic spray. They do make some varieties of apples, such as _liberty_, that is considered a low spray tree, but I've never seen it referred to as a no-spray tree. Aphids, scale, and coddling moths as well as various fungi will infect an apple orchard in no time greatly lowering your crop yield and even outright killing your trees if you don't do something. Most "neglected" or old orchards in my area are in a terrible state of decline because they are not tended properly. The apples the trees do bear are all tiny and covered in green fungus and shriveled due to insect infestation. 
We have 27 different varieties of apples in our orchard and we spray several times a year with horticultural oil. We prune our trees lightly every year while dormant. You'll have to prune them to maximize fruit production and make strong, open, healthy trees. 
Now, all that being said, Pears need less attention than apples do as long as fire blight isn't a real concern in your area, although they still benefit from annual pruning. Plums need about as much attention as apples due to pear curculio and other insect and fungi which can decimate your plum crop and really scab up your tree. Peaches need pruning and often times propping when loaded with heavy crops, and we spray ours with dormant oil several times a year as well. We thin heavy crops to maximize peach size. The most self-sufficient orchard crops we grow are probably our pie cherries as they need very little other than pruning every year, and netting so the birds don't get all the fruit. Sweet cherries seem to be slightly less resistant to infestations/infections than our pie cherries are.
Most nuts are similar to fruits. I know that our hickory nuts here have to be sprayed with dormant oil or you get worms in your nuts. I can't say about anything other than hickory nuts as all we really have are hickories and black walnuts and an almond tree, but we automatically spray the almond when we do everything else, just as a precaution.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I'd ask your neighbors what has worked for them. Location is big as to what pests and diseases thrive in your area. Lots of orchards for a long time mean lots of places for disease and pests to adapt.
I have a few apples, pears, cherries at my place and have never had to spray as there are not many other fruit trees in the area and there are long stretches of redwoods between to stop pests travelling. 
However I saw my first stinkbug last year so I'm going to be looking carefully now. Maybe the insects have finally caught up with me.


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## vicki in NW OH (May 10, 2002)

Gardens Alive catalog had a feature this spring on no-spray fruits. They listed blueberries, huckleberries, Crisp 'n Sweet pear, Chojuro Asian pear, goji berry, carmine jewel dwarf cherry. I would also add raspberries, alpine strawberries, and perhaps regular strawberries.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

How much work are you willing to do? You can bag fruit and there is a kaolin clay spray that you can apply that keeps the bugs out.

The clay must be reapplied every time it rains. Dormant oil (which is considered to be organic) applied in the early spring will help to control aphids. You can use ladybugs and such.

I wouldn't want to do it where you are living.

You might want to consider moving to an area where it is easier to grow fruit-- less disease and fewer pests.


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## eclipchic (Oct 24, 2010)

we've had good luck using organic sprays- neem being the one we use most, but also pyrethrin based sprays, copper sprays, Bt for caterpillars. My neighbor tried no spray for years with no success, this spring he cut down every one of his fruiting trees and used his front loader to knock out the stumps. When we bought this house, the stone fruits here were all loaded with borers and the fruits infested with plum curculios among other things. I believe no spray will never be an option for us, we'll just still with the less toxic sprays


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## mooman (May 19, 2008)

Of all my fruit trees/bushes the blueberries are the most trouble free. No sprays, little pruning....just beat the birds to the fruit and you are good.

Stark Bros seems to think a lot of their stock IMO. I have used Willis Orchards for several years. One year shipping was delayed and most of the stuff I got had leafed out and subsequently died. They replaced everything the next year free of charge and seemed to send me the cream of the crop to make up for it.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Give the known modern disease resistant varieties a try (there are lot more than just Liberty) and google your heart out looking at antique and less known varieties that may do well in your area. Its lot trial and error sort thing. Some variety maybe do very differently one place than another. Companion planting and good fertility may give you much better results. Not what you want to hear, but if you want to be different its going to take a lifetime of experimentation on a particular piece of property. No one size fits all guaranteed results. And remember people have been raising apples and other fruits successfully long before modern chemicals were available. Though dormant oil has been around a long time.


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## jhambley (Nov 21, 2004)

HermitJohn said:


> remember people have been raising apples and other fruits successfully long before modern chemicals were available


Curious, have the diseases and insects gotten stronger or have the trees and plants gotten weaker? Did our ancestors eat worm filled fruits from half-dead, disease ridden trees?

I've found the same issues with modern livestock. Cattlemen propagating weak genetics with vaccines, wormers, and supplemental feeds have destroyed the old-style cattle that could thrive on grass alone. Cows that don't milk, don't breed back, and can't hold their condition on pasture are touted as "modern" genetics. 

My town was built on an apple orchard donated by one of the founding fathers in 1888. It's sad to think that the varieties of heirloom apples that most likely thrived here have been replaced by "improved" seed stock that can't survive without the crutch of petrochemical drenches.

I wonder if we will ever regain the seed stock and skill sets of our forefathers?


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

I can grow pears without any spray. I graft different fence row apples and have little worm problem. I don't spray walnuts, hickory and filberts....James


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## Habitant (Jul 21, 2010)

My understanding is that in the days before chemical pesticides that people a) selected varieties more for their disease resistance than yeild, b) were a lot less picky about appearances than today and c) people drank alot of cider and perry. Those few apples and pears that were relatively unblemished were saved for cooking and eating fresh , the rest went to the cider press. The pomace went to the pigs.

I live beside an old (100 year+) abandoned orchard that has been neglected for all of living memory, other farmer pasturing his cows in it. Every year many trees produce lots of beautiful apples. Usually not the same tree 2 years in a row. 

My advice is to be more like our great grandparents and look for an old orchard that you could ask permission to either harvest some apples and saved the seeds. Plant lots of apples trees. They wont be true to their parent stock just as you are neither your mother or your father but but as they say the fruit does nt fall far from the tree! If some trees disappoint you apple wood makes the best firewood and smoke hams to boot. You will be preserving old genetics and it probably wont cost you a dime.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Yes, apples traditionally were mostly for hard cider. And people loved cooked fruits too. And people werent concerned with looks all that much. Store apples, looks are all they have, they sure dont have any taste.

Today what filters down to backyard orchards are varieties either used by or developed for use by commercial orchards. Some of what the catalogs offer were failures for commercial use but had qualities making them useful for home orchard. Plus people have smaller plots land so are attracted to trees grafted to dwarfing rootstock. It dwarfs the tree cause its weak, not letting tree grow. But during extreme climate years or during disease/insect infestations, being weak, it cant stand up under the onslaught.

I'd also suggest investigating varieties of trees labeled as "very vigorous". They many times will outgrow any attacks. However fast growth can also make them susceptible to some other things, possibly fireblight. However if they can resist fireblight (pears and apples) or black knot (plum), then fast growth is probably going to bring some success. I have couple Kieffer pear trees. Their whole philosophy of life is to outgrow any problem, which they do very well. You still see old Kieffer pear trees producing away out in some pasture or something, the homestead long gone and nobody giving them any care. And they are very resistant to fireblight so win-win for survival. I have an AU cherry plum, resistant to plum diseases, that also is fast grower. And this year planted a Hanska plumcot which seems to also be a very vigorous grower. There are vigorous apple varieties, though with apples it more depends on locale (and rootstock). And even most vigorous growing apples arent going to grow anywhere near as fast as say that Kieffer pear. Some varieties are faster growing in some climates. I'm experimenting. Two I bought grafted and planted last fall, Guyandotte Pippin and Huntsmans Favorite are growing fast. Two I grafted myself this spring are now really taking off, Chestnut Crab and Winter Banana. Sundance I planted last year did very well surviving last year, doesnt seem too be growing very fast this year?? But maybe it likes hotter weather. And I left like four Antanovka rootstock ungrafted to grow into Antanovka apple trees as an experiment. I can always top graft later if apples are horrible. Interestingly two I planted on a slope away from the main planting are growing much better??? So location, location, location.... seems important too even on a mini scale.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Habitant said:


> My understanding is that in the days before chemical pesticides that people a) selected varieties more for their disease resistance than yeild, b) were a lot less picky about appearances than today and c) people drank alot of cider and perry. Those few apples and pears that were relatively unblemished were saved for cooking and eating fresh , the rest went to the cider press. The pomace went to the pigs.
> 
> I live beside an old (100 year+) abandoned orchard that has been neglected for all of living memory, other farmer pasturing his cows in it. Every year many trees produce lots of beautiful apples. Usually not the same tree 2 years in a row.
> 
> My advice is to be more like our great grandparents and look for an old orchard that you could ask permission to either harvest some apples and saved the seeds. Plant lots of apples trees. They wont be true to their parent stock just as you are neither your mother or your father but but as they say the fruit does nt fall far from the tree! If some trees disappoint you apple wood makes the best firewood and smoke hams to boot. You will be preserving old genetics and it probably wont cost you a dime.


Lot apples only produce good crop every other year. If you find good apple, ask to take a scion cutting when tree is dormant. Needs to be done when tree dormant and you want young wood. Only need short bit about quarter inch diameter having 3 or 4 buds. Ask people to save prunings when they prune their trees, this wood is fine. Wrap it in a moist paper towel and put in ziplock bag, store in fridge until you want to use it, will keep couple or three months like this. Lot youtube videos on grafting if you dont know how. Its not rocket science, but dont expect 100% success and if you arent handy with knife, look on ebay for Chinese knockoff of an omega grafting tool, under $25 shipped. This makes it very quick and super simple. You can wrap graft with traditional string and wax, or use string and grafting compound, or grafting tape, or I used the soft rubber electrical unlined splicing tape. Some people use whatever, like strips cut from plastic bag or common vinyl electric tape and still make it work. Idea is that graft has to be kept tight and moisture kept in. I like the unlined rubber electric splicing tape cause it does nice job sealing, but sticks to itself and not the delicate bark and its available in any hardware store.

And dont cut and burn any healthy adult fruit tree just cause you dont like the variety, top graft it. It takes lot years to develop a huge adult root system. What I wouldnt give to have healthy large apple tree, even if it had horrible apples. Cutting tree just wastes all that growth. Now if its diseased or dieing or something, cut away.


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

When it comes to apples, I think you also need to remember that apples (other than certain crab apples) are not native to this country. They were brought here. Therefore, for a century or two they had very few natural enemies. As more and more old world varieties were imported, so were the pests and diseases that attack them, hence, we have to spray more now. We also want it all. We want a large crop of perfectly shaped and colored, unblemished fruit that is worm-free. Taste seems to come second to looks. With our ancestors, it was the other way around. 
We also have to be more hands-on than our ancestors were in regards to pruning and the like as we have diseases like fire blight that can devastate an apple or pear orchard in short order.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

thequeensblessing said:


> When it comes to apples, I think you also need to remember that apples (other than certain crab apples) are not native to this country. They were brought here. Therefore, for a century or two they had very few natural enemies. As more and more old world varieties were imported, so were the pests and diseases that attack them, hence, we have to spray more now. We also want it all. We want a large crop of perfectly shaped and colored, unblemished fruit that is worm-free. Taste seems to come second to looks. With our ancestors, it was the other way around.
> We also have to be more hands-on than our ancestors were in regards to pruning and the like as we have diseases like fire blight that can devastate an apple or pear orchard in short order.


You also find the old russeted apples more disease resistant and resistant to coddling moths. Doesnt bother me for apple skin to be russeted, but seems to be considered ugly by the pretty apple people. Old russeted variety apples tend to be really good flavored for fresh eating.

Fireblight is the worst of the worst of apple/pear diseases. But pay attention there are varieties that are resistant. And some that are very susceptible and some in between. If fireblight is common in your area and it probably is, look for varieties with resistance to it. Oh and cedar apple rust CAR is pain. Tends not destroy tree or crop, but ugly and lowers production. Trees bearing yellow skin apples seem particularly susceptible. But there are lot resistant varieties. It can be sprayed for, but takes multiple applications and royal PITA. Better just not to plant susceptible varieties if you have cedars in your area.

Then there are the borers. My first attempt at apples here in ozarks was ended by dogwood borers. Tree just fell over, they destroyed the root. I didnt know at time some rootstocks are susceptible, some arent. Heck at time I didnt even know it was borer, thought it was some kind of crown rot or other root rot. Seedling apple trees seldom bothered. Borer sees graft as a wound. Then there are things like coddling moths and tend catapillars go after nearly any fruit tree. So on and on. Lot depends on what you can live with and what the tree can tolerate.

And also remember old varieties tended to be used for cider or cooking. Also storage. People didnt have refrigeration and such, they needed apples to store well in a root cellar until spring when early summer fruit starts producing. Some of old varieties, the apples not good tasting direct off tree, they needed to be picked and stored. Month or two later after they mellowed some, flavor much improved. True of pears also. Many pears need to be picked and wrapped in newspaper to ripen properly for best taste.


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## jhambley (Nov 21, 2004)

Thanks for everyone's comments and advice!


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## Queen Bee (Apr 7, 2004)

I am in central NC. I have apple, peach, pear,Asian persimmon, fig, pomegranate, blueberries, blackberries, dewberries, Muscadine grapes and pecan trees. I don't spray! I get enough fruit from everything (except the cherry and peach trees) to provide enough for us and enough to share with our kids. In 15yrs, I have not gotten one peach from our 4 trees--that was edible--NOT one.. And the cherries have never produced..Not enough chill hours here... The figs,blueberries, blkberries, dewberries,pears are prefect--very little insect or disease. The apples don't look like prefect 'groc. store' apples BUT they taste delicious. I might have to cut away a sting or throw out a few.. The Muscadine grapes aren't bothered by much... The main pest with my small pecan trees is the squirrels---the only spray that will help with them is a shotgun-spray..

I have honeybees and just can't bring myself to spray if it isn't completely necessary! 

I think about all the fruit/nut trees/bushes/vines that have grown before sprays were popular--they managed.. Sprays became so popular when we started feeding 10,000 instead of a family from one farm..


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Variety and wide spacing can help, diseases particular to one species won't jump through the orchard so fast, and some parasites may have predators in the trees between.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

dlskidmore said:


> Variety and wide spacing can help, diseases particular to one species won't jump through the orchard so fast, and some parasites may have predators in the trees between.


Yep monoculture bad, thats why I suggested research into companion planting. 

Here is link to a California blog about a permaculture apple orchard. Apples in a Californa Garden

That link mentioned how well an old Winter Banana tree did in hot 20 inch rain climate with no watering and no fertilizing. I wasnt super interested in Winter Banana apple tree until then. It tends not to be mentioned as having any particular adaptability anywhere else, just that one blog. Bought scion and grafted it this spring. Its vigorous, doing well. Course proof is in the pudding of how it tolerates summer and does over time HERE. This isnt California no matter that this is a long hot season dryish climate.

I am not all that interested in varieties that need lot fiddling. I've been looking for more robust varieties that I still find tasty but yet arent prone to every disease and pest out there. Dont need bunch sour hard little green apples though any are better than none. Lot of older varieties, just not huge amounts of information available. Some only mentioned by name.

Being very impressed with Chestnut Crab and with Winter Banana grafts this spring, next year intend experimenting more with other "very vigorous" varieties. Chesapeake, Holstein, and Maigold are three I intend to graft and try next year even though normally I wouldnt be that interested in these particular varieties just from their mini description. Like to try Avenarious, Stone, and Mountain Rose too, but so far only found them as grafted trees. To experiment, not really wanting to gamble lot money. But this has become a major hobby. Can plant and observe fruit trees even though my health is less than robust. Maybe even get to taste some of the fruits of my labor in this lifetime if I am lucky.

Pretty obvious my desired apple orchard isnt going to have any of the usual suspects. Even modern varieties I have so far arent that widely known.


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

There's a kaolin clay product called Surround that acts as a barrier to insects and disease. I have some and was going to try it this year but got distracted and the curculios got the peaches before I got to it. May still try it anyway to see if it will prevent brown rot. 

You mix it in water and spray it on - I've read good things about it.


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## 4nTN (Jan 28, 2005)

I am growing apples,pears,cherries,peachs and blueberries here on my small farm.The only thing I`ve ever used is neem oil when the trees were very young.They are 8 years old now.I get decent yields,last year I had more than I could keep up with.I cut down one pear due to fire blight a few years ago.
Maybe I`m just lucky and biding time before an outbreak of disaster!
BTW: I bought all but my pear trees from stark brothers.Good Luck!


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## RazorRusset (Jan 13, 2019)

HermitJohn said:


> Being very impressed with Chestnut Crab and with Winter Banana grafts this spring, next year intend experimenting more with other "very vigorous" varieties. Chesapeake, Holstein, and Maigold are three I intend to graft and try next year even though normally I wouldnt be that interested in these particular varieties just from their mini description. Like to try Avenarious, Stone, and Mountain Rose too, but so far only found them as grafted trees. To experiment, not really wanting to gamble lot money. But this has become a major hobby. Can plant and observe fruit trees even though my health is less than robust. Maybe even get to taste some of the fruits of my labor in this lifetime if I am lucky.
> 
> Pretty obvious my desired apple orchard isnt going to have any of the usual suspects. Even modern varieties I have so far arent that widely known.


Just wondering how your no-spray apple trials worked out 7 years later. Did you find any varieties that performed well? Where are you located?


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

I don't use sprays on my fruit trees. Last year was a bust, due to too much rain and therefore little pollination, but I often get too many apples and Asian pears. I have a couple Bartlett types that need cutting down due to the fireblight like another poster mentioned.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Along the west half of Michigan's lower peninsula, there are thousands of acres of fruit trees. Michigan grows a wide variety of fruit.
Of course, most of these businesses use fungicides and insecticides. I found it interesting that the amount of chemicals used could be drastically reduced if the millions of "untended" trees could be eliminated.
Backyard or fence row fruit trees act as a reservoir for pests. Fungus, diseases and insect pests multiply there and infect the trees in commercial agriculture. Harboring a fireblight pear tree or just not getting around to a marginally effective organic product are examples of these reservoirs of pests.

Like the Panama Canal project. It had been a failure until the US took over. The first thing they did was get rid of the Sleeping Sickness carrying mosquitos. They sprayed, but they also filled ponds, got rid of tires and junk that harbored mosquitos. No area was off limits. That was many decades ago. But to this day, the area around the Panama Canal has far fewer insects than most of the World. They eliminated the insect reservoirs. 

Seems sort of ironic. The people that want to limit toxic chemicals in the environment are actually creating the need for more chemicals.

Until I'm appointed dictator, there is no solution.


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## JohnP (Sep 1, 2010)

KSU has some publications for fruit growing

(*Commercial*) https://hnr.k-state.edu/extension/publications/fruits-and-nuts-commercial.html

2017 Midwest Fruit Pest Management Guide
Commercial Grape Production in Kansas MF2370
Growing Pecans in Kansas MF1025
Questions and Answers About Vineyard Injury From Herbicide Drift MF2588
Small and Tree Fruit Cultivars MF1028

Series: Postharvest Management of Commercial Horticultural Crops
Harvest Maturity Indicators for Fruits and Vegetables MF1175


(*Home Garden*) https://hnr.k-state.edu/extension/publications/fruits-and-nuts.html

Apple Scab
Apple, Cedar Apple Rust
Bacterial Spot of Peach
Cedar Apple Rust
Exhibiting Fruits and Vegetables
Grapes MF635
Growing Pecans in Kansas MF1025
Harvest & Storage of Fruits and Vegetables MF661
Peach, Bacterial Spot
Peach, Brown Rot
Peach, Perennial (Cytospora) Canker
Pillbugs and Sowbugs EP120
Planning Your Fruit Garden MF352
Pruning Fruit Trees C631
Raspberries and Blackberries MF720
Side-Dressing Garden Plants
Small and Tree Fruit Cultivars MF1028
Spotted Wing Drosophila MF3158
*Spray Schedules*
Spray Schedules for Growing Apples MF3429
Spray Schedules for Growing Stone Fruit MF3430
Fruit Pesticides, Active Ingredients, and Labeled Fruits MF3431
Strawberries MF598
Why Fruit Trees Fail to Bear Fruit MF2166


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

haypoint said:


> Like the Panama Canal project. It had been a failure until the US took over. The first thing they did was get rid of the Sleeping Sickness carrying mosquitos. They sprayed, but they also filled ponds, got rid of tires and junk that harbored mosquitos. No area was off limits. That was many decades ago. But to this day, the area around the Panama Canal has far fewer insects than most of the World. They eliminated the insect reservoirs.


Ya, surely true...just like with medicine, they always seem to work on treating after the fact rather than preventing beforehand.
I had a interesting ideas though I think should work...if everyone did it and got involved for mosquitoes. mosquitoes lay their eggs in everything they can pretty much right? o if everyone got one or two bird baths that were especially made, with a simple small solar activated 'pump'. what this would do is you fill the bird bath reservoir, at hourly or few hours/whatever, a valve opens from solar power, which drains the reservoir through a simple sponge, which would suck all the mosquito larve/etc. out of the reservoir and they would be filtered by the sponge. the pumps waits a bit and then refills the reservoir from its holding tank/base. The larva then dry out on the sponge, and in the reservoir before it refills/etc. thus basically killing them all and getting more mosquitoes to lay in it the next time. 
The more mosquitoes that lay in the trap bird bath, the more die and thus do not reproduce. seems simple enough to me, so if everyone did this, i'd think the mosquito populations would have to decline.


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## LittleRedHen (Apr 26, 2006)

I tried having a nonspray orchard when I had thousands of acres of commercial treated orchards within a short distance from me. the end result was my trees were hit by everything. Every tree had various diseases and a half dozen or more pests. I no longer have that orchard as I moved this past year. Now I am in an area where there is no orchards within miles except a couple old apple trees up the road, which are also not sprayed. I am hoping to still be non spray, but if I run into problems, I am going to end up just spraying. I spend too much money on them to lose the harvest every year. I had 80 trees when I left, I am only at a dozen now. Cant wait to plant more and see how they grow


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Bob M. said:


> Ya, surely true...just like with medicine, they always seem to work on treating after the fact rather than preventing beforehand.
> I had a interesting ideas though I think should work...if everyone did it and got involved for mosquitoes. mosquitoes lay their eggs in everything they can pretty much right? o if everyone got one or two bird baths that were especially made, with a simple small solar activated 'pump'. what this would do is you fill the bird bath reservoir, at hourly or few hours/whatever, a valve opens from solar power, which drains the reservoir through a simple sponge, which would suck all the mosquito larve/etc. out of the reservoir and they would be filtered by the sponge. the pumps waits a bit and then refills the reservoir from its holding tank/base. The larva then dry out on the sponge, and in the reservoir before it refills/etc. thus basically killing them all and getting more mosquitoes to lay in it the next time.
> The more mosquitoes that lay in the trap bird bath, the more die and thus do not reproduce. seems simple enough to me, so if everyone did this, i'd think the mosquito populations would have to decline.


Oh, sure. Those bird baths would equal what percentage of Michigan's hundreds of thousands of wetlands? Sorry I distracted you from the conversation.


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