# Frozen Cistern



## HydroMan (Jan 23, 2005)

I have a small cabin on 20 acres in North Idaho. Right now it is just a weekend place, but I intend on moving onto it permanently in the next few years. It is off the grid with solar and wind power. It has a year round creek with excellent head which I intend on tapping for hydro-power in the long range future.

My water supply is from a 125 ft well wih a DC submersiable pump pumping the water into a 500 gallon inground concrete cistern. The cistern has a 6 inch thick access cover with the top of the cover at ground level. The cistern is housed in an uninsulated wooden shed, 2x6 construction with metal roof. 

When I arrived yesterday after being away for 3 weeks I had very little water pressure coming out of the faucets. Suspecting a frozen pipe I first checked the main gate valve located in a crawl space located 4 feet below grade right outside the peremeter of the house. From what I could tell there was very little water coming through. What was flowing sounded kind of like there might be a mix of ice/slush in the lines. I have a small DC booster pump located right after the main house gate valve and very little water was coming through the hose to pump when I removed the hose to check for flow. So I determined that the gate valve and plumbing downstream into the house was not frozen. I installed a stop/waste drain system which I use to drain all the house plumbing between visits. So it appears that is working. Temps dropped to about minus 10F about a week ago and until this week's pineapple express moved in the temps were consistently in the low 20s in the day and teens at night.

So next I checked the cistern. I lifted the concrete access cover off the top of the cistern, thinking the cause of the problem was upstream of the house. The water in the cistern was topped off, but I found the top 4-5 inches was frozen solid. However since the water underneath was not frozen and cistern outlet is at the bottom of the tank, I am still baffled on why I am not getting any pressure at the house or where the blockage might be. The piping between the cistern and the house is buried 4 feet below grade so I would not expect it to freeze. The cistern outlet valve is 4 feet below grade in a 2ftx2ft wide vaulted box stuffed with styrofoam and batting insulation. I am thinking it could be partially frozen there, but access is difficult so I have not been able to remove it to check it out.

So my questions are:

1) Is there a way I can keep the water in the cistern from freezing? I know a lot of people use those electric livestock heater/deicers, but I need a non electric solution since I am off the grid relying on solar and wind to charge my batteries and I cant be running the generator every time it gets cold. I figure if it would help if I insulated the shed but with all the airspace in there, I doubt it would keep the cistern from freezing. I am thinking I need to somehow insulate the access cover. I have thought of hay or straw but I dont want to atract rodents slow close to my water supply.

2) Any thoughts on where the freeze/blockage might be between the cistern and the house. Is the cistern outlet valve the most likely culprit? If so, how can I insulate it better? It is already 4 feet below grade with the vault fully stuffed with insulation.

3) I am also thinking I need to find a way to protect the plumbing located in the 4 ft below grade crawls space outside the house where my the booster pump, 1 gallon air bladder booster pump and all my valves are located. These are all drained when I am not there, but I am thinking there is enouch cold air down there to freeze this plumbing when I am, particularly overnight. Being below grade I beleive it is well insulated on 3 sides, but there is only 6 inches of earth over some horizontal logs at the ceiling and the access is through a sheet of plywood. Again I need a non-electric solution, so heat tape is not really an option.

If I had built the cabin, I definitely would have designed the plumbing system differently. I need to find a way to make reasonable modifications to make what I have work during the winter.

Please accept my appreciation in advance for any advice all you "experts of real life experience" can provide me.

Thanks,
Dave


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Hi Dave. Too many ? for me to have a go at, but I'll try to answer a few anyway.

It is possible that the ice on top is preventing enough air getting into the cistern so you have a partial vacuum that the small pump is pulling against. 

Have you tried putting a propane heater in the cistern house? One of the camping style on top of a 40# bottle should work ok. 

Insulation is good! In a closed poly type cistern unless the rodents can chew through the pipes or wiring, they won't damage your water supply. I never had problems with rodents in my cistern even with loose insulation on it. 

Also, on the cistern house, can you install a south facing window to bring in solar heat?


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

correct. break the ice.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

My guess is also the ice not allowing air to reach the top of the water. As was posted, that creates a vacuum that won't allow gravity to drain the water. A cheap solution is one of those fish tank air bubblers. All you need to do is to drop the bubble stone into the bottom of the cistern. The rising air will keep a small patch of the water surface ice free and allow the water to drain into the house. If you don't have a power outlet near the cistern, hook the compressor up in the house and run a long hose to the cistern. I've done that with a pond. It kept one spot ice free all winter.

The best part is those little air pumps don't draw much current.


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## Steve (May 9, 2002)

Cyngbaeld is most likely correct about the ice cap creating a vaccuum underneath that the pump cannot overcome. 

Back in the '70s when I lived on a small farm in northeastern North Dakota, this happened to us and my landlord just drilled about a 1/2" diameter hole in the ice cap to let air through. He tied a rope around the drill so that it hung with the bit down. Then he plugged it in and turned it on and locked the trigger lock. Then lowered it down to the ice and said to let it eat the ice slowly or the drill body will counterspin. We had water after that.

Then the next time the water hauler delivered water, he just dumped it on top of the ice cap and it finally broke up.

Hope this helps.


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

Hi Dave

Is there a way to lay in a plywood ceiling, that you could remove in June?

Can you fit a fat piece of PVC pipe in such way as to use the pipe to allow an airway for the water?

As for the areas away from the tank that may be freezing, you could get an outdoor thermometer, and put the sensor inside the suspected area- to get readings until you know whether or not that area is a problem or not. 

Good Luck.


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## Cosmic (Jan 19, 2005)

As stated your core problem is probably a vacuum lock that occurs if the ice cap is solid against the sides. In gravity drain type systems that will result in little or no flow fairly quickly if no compensating air can get under the ice.

Again a bubbler air system is the standard industrial solution to keeping a spot from freezing. I am not sure a fish tank type bubbler would provide enough air. Usually they are built with a metering tube that also allows for regulation of the amount of air. Might work here but I would try what may be a better solution.

Your core solution is to get heat without electricity. The creek which will provide the hydro power can be that source depending on how the piping runs and elevations work out. Creek water under a frozen cap on the creek even in the coldest weather can be well above freezing. The Earth temperature is constant at ~48 F. Example if you measure most spring water it is about 48 F. 

Tap off some deep creek water, build a piping system, bury it as deep as possible, route to a heating coil in the cistern, let that be your heat source. Can also use as a heat source to protect your other piping. The creek water might be say 37 - 39 F but if it travels a distance underground deep enough it will actually pick up heat from the Earth and can be close to 48 F when it enters the heating coil in the cistern. No contamination can occur because the creek water is in a closed system.

Any flowing water source can work, spring water, creek water, what have you as long as the flows, elevations, etc are suitable. Once installed is a fairly set /forget type system, needs little maintenance.

Couple this solution with adding a floating foam cover directly on the cistern water level with say a 1/4 gap around the edge. Something like that blue building foam. Also add whatever insulation to the top cover that can be done. Think that should give a fairly bullet proof solution. You are using Mother Nature, not trying to fight her in any manner. You also need a return point for your heating water that is freeze proof. Can be back in the creek in a wet well affair that you build well under the surface / gravel bed. The prime principle is get enough head to ensure adequate flows thru the heating system. Take your flows under a gravel intake to prevent sucking up stuff that will plug the system.


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## HydroMan (Jan 23, 2005)

Thanks for all the quick and thoughtful responses.

I should have mentioned that I did break a big hole in the ice and left the cistern cover off and still did not get any more pressure at the house. Had a little water with the 12V booster pump running and no water when it was turned off. Of course the pump would not shutdown automatically because it was not able to build enough pressure. The only other conclusion is there must be some ice in the cistern outlet valve or pipe upstream from the house. Just bugs me because is buried 4 ft deep.

Cosmic I like your suggested system, however I dont think it will work in my situation with out additional pumps. The highest part of the creek is still 20 feet below the level of the cistern and 150 feet distance. The creek is going to work great for hydropower, but not as a source of drinking or recirculating "heating" water.

I am going to Cosmic's suggestion to cut a peice of that blue insulation board and and float it on top of the water in the cistern. My only concern is whether or not it will leach any chemicals into the water.


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## Cosmic (Jan 19, 2005)

You can still get that system to work by building a hydraulic ram type pumping system in the creek and pumping back a far smaller flow to get over your head difference. Same principle as filling a tank from a flowing source with a large elevation difference, using the flowing source as the motive power. May be talking a fair amount of piping but is simple in design. In a way the more deep underground piping in the heating system prior to the cistern the better.

The beauty of that system is you will be able to heat trace your entire system, cistern, interconnecting piping, valving and use points. Nothing else will probably give the same benefits without introducing their own problem sets.

If worried about the foam, seal it in a heavy plastic bag or something similar to encapsulate it.

The P.S. 

Being 4 feet deep might not be deep enough for a water system in a colder environment. Maybe six feet or even eight would be more appropriate. Four feet might work if it is a working periodic flowing system. I take it the system is static for most of the freezing period. Deeper is better. Six feet is used in Boston for most water lines. 4 feet is really the outer limit normally considered for frost action.


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## BackwoodsIdaho (Nov 2, 2004)

I can guarantee your pipes didn't freeze up! We live in an all solar off grid home in North Idaho (around Priest Lake) with a cistern and slow well pump setup. Our pipes are 36" below grade wrapped in foam insulation and we have never frozen up even with the 22 below we experienced last week and the other 20+ below spells in early winters. At 4' you are more than deep enough. Most people don't even go much below 2' up here because the high depth of snow of most years insulates enough.

Our set up is the following. We use a Shurflo pump at the 60' level in the well casing. It is on a float switch in the cistern so the cistern is kept full by the float switch turning on and off. The cistern is a poly tank with about a 1200 gallon capacity. We then run the water to a dankoff 12V pump and a captive air tank for household pressure. The pump and captive air tank are in a buried vault outside the pump house in the front yard since we don't have a basement or space inside for it. The cistern has a small house built over it and is covered with insulation.

My bet is that your pump may have a problem, esp. if it was allowed to run dry for any length of time. I know Dankoff's are very suspectible to running dry or dirt in the line. The vacuum idea is probably not it because you could break the vacuum with the line in from your well even if the ice did make a perfect seal. I would also check to make sure there isn't an obstruction some where in the line.

my $0.02 worth

PS Boston water lines at 6 feet - LOL - most of them are clay anyway from god knows how far back. The biggest water line there is the central artery replacement tunnel LOL. I am glad I left that hell hole once I finished graduate school.


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## Cosmic (Jan 19, 2005)

BackwoodsIdaho said:


> PS Boston water lines at 6 feet - LOL - most of them are clay anyway from god knows how far back. The biggest water line there is the central artery replacement tunnel LOL. I am glad I left that hell hole once I finished graduate school.


Think somehow you got your lines crossed. 

All the water lines are cast iron, just about always have been. Just replaced all the ones around me, the old ones where cast iron, replaced with new cast iron. Many sewer lines are clay fired sewer pipes, some older ones maybe brick. The sewer lines are at 8 feet, the water mains at 6 feet over top them. The service relays and inlet lines still have many lead lines, replaced with copper. They really are at 6 feet, come right into the basement that way. Boston unlike many cities never seemed to be a fan of any form of cement lines for water.

http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/0799feat.html

Maybe wood in the very old days, no clay. I should not be around that much longer to keep you up to date on the plumbing.


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## HydroMan (Jan 23, 2005)

Hi Backwoods,

I am located up in the Rapid Lightning Creek area about 13 mile NE of Sandpoint. Steve Willey is a neighbor about 1/2 mile up the road from me.

Anyway, you and I have a similar set-up. The only real difference is your booster pump and pressure tank are in a buried vault and mine is a below grade crawl space. The space is about 3 feet wide by 4 feet deep horizontally and about 4 feet below grade measured from the floor to the ceiling. About 6 inches of dirt on top over a log ceiling structure. The big weak spot is the uninsulated plywood access door where I walk in stooped over. I would like to find a way to insulate this space better.

I dont think the booster pump is bad. It is a Shurflo model 2088 and is supposed to be able to run dry with no harm. Also, I am getting just a tiny trickle of water coming through the gate valve when disconnected from the inlet side of the pump. If there was not a problem upstream from the pump and it was the pump that was bad, I would expect a pretty steady low pressure stream of water coming out of the open valve. You may be right about some obstruction in the line that may not be ice. I just hope it is not somewhere in the 40 feet of 4 foot deep buried pipe coming from the cistern to the house.

Are you saying you have never had a problem with the water in your cistern freezing? I am surprised that simply insulating the shed would keep it from freezing in subzero temps outside. Tell me a little more about your insulated cistern shed set-up. What type of insulation and where is it insulated? How big is your shed?

Thanks,
Dave


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## HydroMan (Jan 23, 2005)

Cosmic,

Just realized that I may have a problem implementing your idea of placing a peice of blueboard insulation on top of the water in the cistern. The circumference of the cistern is about 6 inches greater to the outside edge of the cistern then the access hole. I guess I could split it into 2 peices but that may leave a gap in the middle as it floats it floats around in the water, particularly with a 1/2 inch gap from the cistern walls. Am I missing something.

In addition to insulating the cistern shed walls, I am thinking of laying a couple layers of radiant insulation blanket over the top of the cistern cover.


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## Cosmic (Jan 19, 2005)

Hydroman

Nope, you got it, lots of ways to skin the same goat.

One way is make the cover in 1/2's or 1/4's and when you encapulate it, hinge the sections so it can fold for installation. When deployed it will form a full intergal circle. Little extra protection never hurts. Lot of tanks in industry use floating covers of some type for a variety of purposes.

You might want to try to run an electricians snake down the water line if possible to see it is plugged by something. If not, maybe can back blow it.

Another idea that maybe can be used in some manner is how to produce compressed air with no electricity or moving parts. Can get around the elevation difference you mention before. Maybe even useful in a shop or power plant scheme in the future. Was used way back when before electrical systems became common to power systems via air.

Probably can't use the air directly in the cistern because it would probably be considered contaminated by direct contact with the creek water but could either generate heat with it or power something or figure out a way to use it as the heat transfer fluid in a heating coil as some more insurance. 

http://www.motherearthnews.com/arc/4300/

Somewhere I think there is another article by Mother Earth News that gives more of the sizing, construction details and design data. Am in a mess because I am packing up my tech library. Also there is a very detailed nomograph that has the sizing data floating around. Mind is drawing a blank as to who / what to search for it. Maybe in Peale's Mining Handbooks. (I can check) Very detailed descriptions and pictures in some books about a very early system in Paris. Nothing like having a shop air system that is oil free and doesn't need power or a compressor.


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## Steve (May 9, 2002)

Hydroman,

For what it's worth, review my reply post from a previous winter.


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## BackwoodsIdaho (Nov 2, 2004)

HydroMan said:


> Hi Backwoods,
> 
> I am located up in the Rapid Lightning Creek area about 13 mile NE of Sandpoint. Steve Willey is a neighbor about 1/2 mile up the road from me.


Hey Dave - have driven many times right by your place up to Steve's to get various solar or other alternative energy parts. Now I guess they have moved a bit closer into Sandpoint at the convenience store now. You have a really nice spot up there.

I used to work in Sandpoint at Coldwater Creek but now I just do freelance programming and consulting mostly from home.

Anyway, on to the cistern. We purchased a Norwesco poly cistern from RC Wurst in Couer d'alene. I buried it about 25 feet from our cabin and 20 feet or so from our well. The top 6" or so of the inspection covers are out of the ground. The piping into the cistern from the well is 1" poly line that comes into the top of the cistern and then makes a 90 elbow to a 4' or so piece of pipe that delivers the water to the bottom of the tank. I did this because I was afraid if I ever developed a leak where the fitting was on the cistern, I wanted it above the water level so that the tank didn't empty itself and float up on the leaking water. I also like this setup because it keeps the water li turning over in the cistern and the sediment (if any) can precipitate out of the water. The supply line to the dankoff pump is also a 4' or so pipe to the lower part of the cistern up to a 90 elbow at the top and out to the pump with a check valve inline to keep the pump always primed. The dankoff pump sits bolted on top of a horizontal captive air tank that provides the water pressure to the house supply via a 3/4 inch line.

The cistern has a small house basically the same size as the footprint of the cistern built around it with a shed roof. The tank is covered with a 6mil plastic vapor barrier, then I used the foil insulation with air bubbles inside. I saw this used in a yurt for insulation. I duck taped these sheets together to make one big space blanket. Then I took conventional fiberglass insulation and wrapped it in plastic to keep it dry and put that over it, then I covered the whole melange of insulation is another sheet of 6mil black plastic. The shed is built of cedar horizontal siding left over from our cabin and dark green metal roof.

So far, we have had no water problems at all. The best part is the water is clear and cold in August. I can email you a picture of our setup if you like.

jim


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## edjewcollins (Jun 20, 2003)

Can you blow the system back to the cistern to see if that helps? Not enough air pressure to damage anything just see if the line is fouled.

Ed


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## Cosmic (Jan 19, 2005)

Might want to rethink the entire problem. 

Seems to be two systems built something identical. One freezes, the other doesn't. Difference I would reckon could be more in the hooch that covers the cistern than anything else.

I have two sheds just about equal in size. One on pier blocks, wood floor, one with poured concrete floor, long back wall layed up stonework, totally Earth sheltered by being buried within about 18" of the top. Difference on a winter day is incredible. Can just about store something in the Earth sheltered one without it freezing if tucked in toward back wall. Back to that old Earth temperature being ~48 F at depth.

The solution might be totally rethink the hooch over the cistern. Masonry totally Earth sheltered except for a door opening. I also remember all the old farm milkhouses, spring houses, etc as a kid, none I ever knew froze in winter. All were designed to be Earth sheltered. Just that amount of heat is enough to overcome the Heat of Fusion which is the extra amount of energy that must be lost after water reaches 32 F before it turns to ice. Talking ~142 BTU's / Lb.

A floating cover is good, an insulated cover is good. Think burying the hooch here is the key. Or if it doesn't have a true hooch over it, building one.


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## HydroMan (Jan 23, 2005)

Cosmic,

Hooch?...Sorry, but the only hooch I know of comes in a bottle insulated by a brown paper bag. Please explain.

The shed over my cistern is about 6x6 with an open gable ceiling which is about 8 ft at the peak. The floor is 6 inches of concrete with the top about an inch above grade. The concrete cistern access cover is in the center. Construction is 2x6. Siding is T111 painted brown. Metal blue roof. Interior is uninsulated.

What you decribe is an earth berm structure. Not sure this could be accomplished without tearing down shed and building up some type of stone structure and moving some earth. Right now I planning to just insulate the hell out of the shed and the cistern cover and see what happens from there. I think I will use that radiant insulation blankets rather then fiberglass batting. Then if needed go with some of the more "exotic solutions"

Your description of an underground shed with only an access door opening sounds close to what I have sheltering my booster pump, 1 gallon air bladder pressure tank and valves. This is located just outside the perimeter of the house. I still think there is too much cold air getting in there too (through the thin layer of earth on top and through the plywood access door., but I have not had a freeze probem yet that I am aware of. But a I did replace one valve that I broke in 2 when I went to open it right after buying the place. My guess is that it had froze last winter and the previous owner never bothered to fix it. The place was built in 1999.

Like I said earlier I would have designed the whole plumbing system differently if I was starting out fresh. As is typical up in North Idaho, things tend to be cobbled together as money allows.

Sure appreciate everyones help. Got a whole bunch of ideas to try out. I hope to give everyone some real world feedback after my next visit next weekend or the one following.

Thanks,
Dave


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## HydroMan (Jan 23, 2005)

so far, we have had no water problems at all. The best part is the water is clear and cold in August. I can email you a picture of our setup if you like.

jim[/QUOTE]

Jim,

Go ahead and send me your pics if it is not too much trouble. I think you can email through this site. Rather not post my email address here due to spammers.

I will try to take picture of my set up next time I am up there and then post here to give everyone a better idea of what I am talking about, although I think everyone has a pretty good idea.

By the way the link to your misty ranch website does not appear to work. Maybe you and I can hook up sometime. I live in Libery Lake during the week.

Thanks,
Dave


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## Cosmic (Jan 19, 2005)

Hooch = Lightly built shack, usually variation of Far Eastern slang.

Yup, massive insulation might work. The flaw being insulation by itself might not be the total cure in these type cases. Insulation does nothing if there is no heat source under long term freezing conditions and it is the only protective mechanism. Might be one of those do and try situations.

The other truism is you never know anything about it unless you can measure it.

Maybe one of those High / Low thermometers like you can get at a garden shop. They have two mercury columns and can show exactly how cold it got inside during a particular measurement period. Little needle gizmo indicators ride on the columns and remain behind marking the extremes, you reset them with a magnet. Moving it around inside can attempt to locate the air leaks / cold zones if they exist. Least you know did it freeze at 31.9 F or 28 F? Can start to ball park the problem. Any analog device like a portable recorder is even better in these type problems.

Best to have Earth bermed masonry for a source of heat plus lots of insulation to contain it. I actually like poured or foamed insulations like perlite, vermiculite or poly beads or sawdust or whatever that can be contained and take up every bit of a potential leakage path for those situations where you need super fail safe insulation barriers. A small leak without a heat source can defeat a passive system pretty easy, especially if you get into very low temps. Can built up some knee walls of stone inside the insulation barrier to extend the heat source from the ground up into the zone. Might get some heat wicking. Compromise way to attempting it. Where some ability to measure and record comes in.

A bit of hack and smash on the way to a solution.


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## HydroMan (Jan 23, 2005)

Cosmic,

Since the concrete cistern is already in the ground, isnt it the earth around it serving as a heat source the same as an earth berm. Insulation over the top would serve as the "containment?


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## Cosmic (Jan 19, 2005)

yup, sort of.

Problem is probably about positive and negative sources and which one wins. Guess the solution is to be able to gage magnitudes and make enough correction in the right direction. Hence the ability to measure things.

The weak point in the argument is if the cistern surface sees a far lower temp directly above, that area will be isolated from the bulk of the rest of the cistern. Hence the dancing around on floating covers, bringing up the temp above the water surface. Water is probably stratified.

Just for openers of absolute sure things to do, I would say the cistern floating cover, the High / Low thermometer and some level of internal shack insulation, plus stop all air leaks around doors, etc. Then see how that shakes out. With the thermometer would finally start to have some crude info to base guesses on.

Even better two thermometers one for inside and one for outside, get some idea of the differentials and how effective the barriers / heat sources are.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

HydroMan said:


> Cosmic,
> 
> Since the concrete cistern is already in the ground, isnt it the earth around it serving as a heat source the same as an earth berm. Insulation over the top would serve as the "containment?


Now you've lost me. All cisterns here in minnesota are in-ground. Here you say yours is in ground too, but before you were saying the cistern is above ground in a shack? I'm lost now. In real simple terms, where is your cistern located?


Anyhow, I live in southern Minnesota. We just had a spell of minus 15-20 for lows, near zero for highs. What is rare, we had no snow until this week, there was less than 1" of snow on the ground. So we endured those cold temps with no insulation. Our ground was fairly dry, & the cold temps cracked it - some of those cold cracks in my pasture run 18" - 2' deep, and were wide enough the cows were stepping into it.

Now, think about that cold air pouring into those cracks....

We need our pipes 5' deep, and 6' is _highly_ recommended - required if you go under a driveway or other packed ground. If you have deep snow, fine & all, but wow 4' water lines sound real scary to me - too shallow. That is what _I_ would expect to be the problem.

Your second problem is lack of water useage. Your water heat comes from new water being added to the system. If you flush a few toilets or water livestock each day, all would be well. The total lack of water usage for a week means the water pipes, tanks, & cistern are freezing up on you. Would be very different if you used water each day.

Third problem is the cistern, which I think is above ground in an uninulated shack (but i'm confused now?). How big is this cistern? You either need to slow the heat loss (insulation), add heat to it (use water so more warmer water is added; or heat the structure), and make sure _all_ air cracks are caulked shut.

Now, you say water dribbled out of the pipe - this is at the cistern where the water is gravity feeding out???? This is very low head pressure water - maybe 5lbs or so, it does not 'push' very hard. Gosh, I'd let that flow for a few hours & see if it speeded up, worked through the iced over part. Add more water to the cistern, so it gets some heat. Get things moving again.

For the pits & the crawl space, again eliminate _all_ air drafts. A south wind after a cold snap messes up my water ststen to the barn every time - I have one pit that does not have a good cover, and the south wind will freeze it. Five gal of hot water thrown in the pit, & good to go again. Let 20 gallons of water run, and the water heats it up a bit & all is fine. If my brain were working in fall, I need to improve that pit cover! All my pits are 6-8 feet deep.

For background, I have a 250' deep well, an 8' pit at the top with a 80 gal pressure tank in that pit. Water line 6' deep to the house, water pipe out of house basement to the cistern which is maybe 10' deep, holds a lot of water, and gravity feeds to the barn. This gravity system goes to a pit 6' by the hog barn (unused for livestock - this is the one that feezes) and is routed over to a pit by the cattle barn.

Lots of folks, even the well guys, are kinda surprised that some of this works. Especially my pressure tank in the unheated pit at the head of the well. Since the top of the tank is only 2-3 feet from grade, they think it should freeze up.

What they forget it the turnover of watar to keep that pit heated. On thse bitter cold nights, I'm sure to run some water into my livestock cistern, to get fresh new water through the system.

Been working for 35+ years.

Before that, the water actually ran reverse course, from a shallow well & a windmill pump, to fill the cistern. From there it was gravity fed to the barn, or drawn into the house & a pressure tank in the basement.

Ah, more than you cared to know.

--->Paul


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Hey, BackwoodsIdaho here - using the my wife's account since I am too lazy to go out to the truck and get my laptop.

The water and ground provide enough calories with insulation to keep it above freezing. Cosmic - you sound like you attended my alma mater in Cambridge - this is not that complex! We are talking algebra not calculus here.

I will post pictures of the setup tomorrow once I have a high speed WAN connection again. But suffice it say, ya bury it, fill it with water, insulate it and make sure the lines are deep enough and ya don't worry about it. North Idaho Engineering at its finest.

jim


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

"Can you blow the system back to the cistern to see if that helps? Not enough air pressure to damage anything just see if the line is fouled."

I think Ed's suggestion is worth a try especially if the drain from the cistern comes off the bottom. If you have a bottom drain eventually any foreign material that gets into the cistern will end up at the drain.


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## HydroMan (Jan 23, 2005)

rambler said:


> Now you've lost me. All cisterns here in minnesota are in-ground. Here you say yours is in ground too, but before you were saying the cistern is above ground in a shack? I'm lost now. In real simple terms, where is your cistern located?
> 
> I thought I made it clear in my original post. The cistern is made of concrete and is in the ground with a six inch thick concrete access cover. The top of the cover is at grade. No insulation over the cover.
> Hope this clears things up.
> ...


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## Cosmic (Jan 19, 2005)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> North Idaho Engineering at its finest.
> 
> jim


Sounds like the problem. Somebody did some of that North Idaho Engineering at its finest. I would have just buried the cistern least 4 feet deep at its top slab and built a small igloo on its top slab laying up the curved concrete blocks used for building wet wells and buried that, built a lift up hatch on a kneewall over the access ladder, over the igloo. Don't need no insulation, been done for a few hundred dollars in record time. Ain't Algebra, we are talking speed math 2 + 2. Must have been the same Italian contractor that built the bridge at Chappagquiddick that snookered Teddy Kennedy working too far out of his field to the West.    

What happened to those 2 foot buried lines that are snow insulated????? :no: 

We got a nice problem here, don't mess up a good solution unless you got a better problem. Union Rule #12. :haha: Murphy Law #54, All mechanical design flaws will eventually solved with I & C controls engineered solutions.


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## BackwoodsIdaho (Nov 2, 2004)

Cosmic said:


> Sounds like the problem. Somebody did some of that North Idaho Engineering at its finest. I would have just buried the cistern least 4 feet deep at its top slab and built a small igloo on its top slab laying up the curved concrete blocks used for building wet wells and buried that, built a lift up hatch on a kneewall over the access ladder, over the igloo. Don't need no insulation, been done for a few hundred dollars in record time. Ain't Algebra, we are talking speed math 2 + 2. Must have been the same Italian contractor that built the bridge at Chappagquiddick that snookered Teddy Kennedy working too far out of his field to the West.
> 
> What happened to those 2 foot buried lines that are snow insulated????? :no:
> 
> We got a nice problem here, don't mess up a good solution unless you got a better problem. Union Rule #12. :haha: Murphy Law #54, All mechanical design flaws will eventually solved with I & C controls engineered solutions.


I must not be following what you are saying - our cistern doesn't have lines at the bottom of the tank because we didn't want penetrating holes below water line that could leak resulting in the cistern floating in the hole and the required digging to fix a leak. Our lines come in at the top and immediately go down to the bottom of the tank via a pvc pipe sort of like a dip tube in a vertical hot water heater. The lines are only buried 36" with foam insulation.

North Idaho is a pretty temperate winter really in terms of ground hard freezing. That combined with the amount of snow we receive from pacific fronts hitting cold air masses over the mountains results in good insulation. A lot of the old timers up here don't bury much below 2'. Also, digging big deep holes in this area is a challenge because of the rocks so I try to minimize the depth I have to go to in the first place.

As I said in my first post, the lines are not frozen - I think some debris was picked and it settled in the outlet - maybe sand or pebbles esp if the cistern was run dry. That is the other advantage of the tube design we use, the debris settles to the bottom and tube pickup opening is 6" above the bottom so the debris should never be sucked into the supply line.

jim


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