# cindy-e (or anyone!) question about classical education...



## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

So I've finally read the Well Trained Mind and for the most part, agree completely. 

What really convinced me was an older gentlemen I met when he was nearly 90, 10 years ago. He was in our Sunday School class and discussions with him were always lively and fun. He was extremely intelligent and well educated. (He's been gone two years, hence the past-tense) But I will never forget saying something to his daughter-in-law one day about how challenging it must have been for a boy raised on a western Nebraska homestead to get to college. 
She was puzzled. "Don never went to college. He made it to the 10th grade and dropped out to work with his dad. Look at the old graduation photos in the school some time. He's not in his class's..."

Sure enough! Which obviously isn't to say that only smart people go to college, or conversely, that a college degree is any sort of a guarantee of intelligence (I've known too many who completely disprove that). But if you had ever spoken to Don, you would know what I mean. He just had the demeanor of someone with a life-long love of learning, as well as being able to speak intelligently on a whole slew of various topics. Basically, the feel of that past-generation's college-educated crowd, if you've ever had the good-fortune to know what I mean.

But without even a high school diploma, he was still a well educated man.
Anyway, I'm sold on classical education. 




Here's the problem:

DS has ADD (aka ADHD-PI), but we don't have him on drugs. I've recently put him on Magnesium/Calcium/Fish oil as there's some limited research that kids with ADHD respond positively. He also drinks coffee regularly as he responds well to the stimulant effect.


However, like many kids he has language issues and in the 7th grade, this manifests as reading/writing difficulties. The actual motor skills of writing are nearly impossible (his handwriting is illegible) and the mechanics of the writing process are also difficult. He omits words, sprinkles punctuation about like it's ice cream toppings, and can't spell to save his life. 
Some of this is self-correcting by just getting him on a computer. But, where there is _so much_ writing (summarizing, outlining, etc.) I'm not sure how to approach this. 
Reading is OK, but he gets far more out of it when he has an auditory track reading it aloud to him at the same time. 


I just have this idea that if we can figure out how to have success with the challenge of a rigorous education, in spite of his ADD, that he'll be able to have success with anything he might want to do. KWIM?

Anyway, after this novel, that's what I'm hoping for; some ideas for how to approach this with a kid who has a lot of trouble focusing and sitting still.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

I taught my OCD/ADD DS (who was also Epileptic) and gifted easy to teach DD (who is mildly ADD, too), (12) classes per day. They were typically no longer than 15 to 20 minutes each. I put together my entire curriculum exceeding the public school's IEP, if I remembered the acronym correctly. I created a number of the classes, like Values & Morals, for example. In addition, I included Children's Bible Study. I never lost their interest in the classes due to the length of time. The only class time that exceeded that more regularly was "reading time with Mother." I would read the stories, when I wasn't making them up, and would usually go for at least (30) minutes. They would both sit transfixed while I read (I get into character and do impressions/voices).. I also used unabridged literature. Although, I taught them (10) years, they were enrolled in public school after my divorce, since I had no other choice. That turned out to be a total waste of time for my DD, who could have tested out easily in 9th grade, and gone to college. My DS was failed miserably by the school system, dropped out, and got his GED last year. Both of my children have supported themselves since they were 18, have lived on their own since. DS is 23, DD turning 25 soon. They are both doing very well in their careers and everything they set their minds to. Also, I taught my DS & DD how to "harness their minds," so neither have ever been on meds. I can tell you the shorter subjects, whole based teaching, lots of day trips, and teaching them in "out of the box" ways resulted in wonderful results!


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## cindy-e (Feb 14, 2008)

ErinP said:


> So I've finally read the Well Trained Mind and for the most part, agree completely.
> 
> What really convinced me was an older gentlemen I met when he was nearly 90, 10 years ago. He was in our Sunday School class and discussions with him were always lively and fun. He was extremely intelligent and well educated. (He's been gone two years, hence the past-tense) But I will never forget saying something to his daughter-in-law one day about how challenging it must have been for a boy raised on a western Nebraska homestead to get to college.
> She was puzzled. "Don never went to college. He made it to the 10th grade and dropped out to work with his dad. Look at the old graduation photos in the school some time. He's not in his class's..."
> ...


Well, I can say I have been *exactly* in your shoes! I have two kids on the spectrum. One is an aspie with ADD tendencies, and the other is dyslexic and dysgraphic. They have done really, really well with the classical approach. 
This will be a very long answer and I hope you don't mind. =0)
Answering questions you asked:
Manual writing: Almost all of my kids work is done on a computer, with one exception: Taking notes/studying. There is brain science to support a memory connection between manually writing things out, and remembering them. so notes must be done by hand. This keeps the handwriting at a level where (for example) the SAT and ACT tests (composition section) are legible and can be done within the time limit. We want delight in education. If writing physically hurts or causes stress or uncertainty, that gets connected to course content, which is what we don't want. =0)
Learning Grammar: Remember that the 3 "stages" of learning are also the 3 levels of mastery of any subject. So even though your child might be approaching a "dialectic" stage of learning developmentally, it is still appropriate to do grammar level learning and techniques where there has not been mastery in a discipline. In fact, if they are well trained, they will do grammar level learning on their own in college when facing new content. 
Grammar stage learning of grammar:
FIRST, teach him how to memorize things. Use classical techniques: Songs and Chants (using rhythm to commit things to memory) Disputatio. (question and answer, but BOTH of you get to ask and answer questions on the topic, and there is a little bit of a competition/fun vibe to it). Roman Room. (assigning information to an actual place in your space so that it can be visually recalled). Visualization. (creating a crazy interesting story or word picture that connects long lists of information.) Catechism. (You create a list of questions and answers on any topic. When asked the questions, the child will be able to recall the answers because the information is "pegged" to the questions). Motions. Great for kinesthetic learners. My son learned his math facts whilst running around the garden. 
Making it age appropriate: 
In order for grammar to be interesting at his dialectic age though, he needs to begin to synthesize it. Editing is best. We like the Editor in chief books. 
Writing: Writing is a skill, not merely a creative endeavor. Things that worked for my son at that age: IEW (I don't love it. Very, rote and formulaic) but some kids need that. Classical Composition and/or Classical writing. (classical comp is easier to teach. It has a scripted teacher book from Memoria Press.) To bridge the gap of academic writing while getting up to speed on the progymnasmata (the classical way to learn writing), teach him a basic 5 paragraph essay structure. At first it will feel that Classical writing puts him behind his peers, but look carefully at what it is doing! It is teaching him to analyse, synthesize and manipuate the elements of story, and really of communication and thought. There are 14 levels before gratuating from high school. He will be able to write astonishly well when it is over. My Aspergers/ADD son made over a 600 on the SAT writing section, and he really has to think and struggle to communicate, even verbally. So I know this works for learning challenged kids. 
Classical education is not only rigorous in the "subjects", it also feeds the child's soul. Here is a good quote, ""St Augustine defines virtue as _ordo amoris_, the ordinate condition of the affections in which every object is accorded that kind of degree of love which is appropriate to it.11 Aristotle says that the aim of education is to make the pupil like and dislike what he ought.12 When the age for reflective thought comes, the pupil who has been thus trained in 'ordinate affections' or 'just sentiments' will easily find the first principles in Ethics; but to the corrupt man they will never be visible at all and he can make no progress in that science.13 Plato before him had said the same. The little human animal will not at first have the right responses. It must be trained to feel pleasure, liking, disgust, and hatred at those things which really are pleasant, likeable, disgusting and hateful."

CS Lewis The Abolition of Man 
So classical ed helps to expose children to many Good, beautiful, honorable, just things... we do this through our morning meeting usually. In morning meeting, we read (very) good books. This is not time to be wasted on simply adequate books. These must provoke thought. We listen to the music (folk, popluar, classical, all of it), study the art, and study the architecture of the period of time that we happen to be studying or the geographical area. we memorize poetry written in the period, (and this is important in teaching writing. because language not only has a form, it has a rhythm.) We study plutarch - the quintissential citizen- to learn how to be good citizens of our country. We read shakespeare. It is the "spoon full of sugar that helps the (rigorous) medicine go down. My friend Cindy Rollins has a blog about morning time. http://www.ordo-amoris.com She errs on the side of Charlotte Mason, but many people marry the two. Lots of ways to do it. But morning time is a way to deliberately educate a person as opposed to just a mind. It helps. It also creates astonishing connections to the material you are studying in school. Really amazing to watch. 
An Example: 
I know this is long, but bear with me. =0) We studied ancient history a few years ago, and in that we studied some of the architecture of the buildings. They were infused with meaning (as were the ones from the middle ages) and had many symbols attached to their public places. So, we go on a field trip to see Fiddler on the Roof. It happened to be in a neo-classical building built in the early 1900s. All of the other children were just goofing off and laughing (big group of kids). Nothing wrong with that, of course, but my children were quiet, stunned, and in awe of the building. They were "reading" the symbols on the building, noticing the arches and the workmanship, and recieving such pleasure from just being there and understanding the classical elements of it's context. Ordo Amoris. Affections rightly ordered. They will get a lifetime of enjoyment and fascination from things that other people in the same room won't even see. So in all of that rigor, don't neglect the soul. =0)

K FWIW, 
Cindyc.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Thanks for the link, cindy, and the ideas. I'm reading and ruminating now.


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## cindy-e (Feb 14, 2008)

Well, just remember that "memory work" in grammar stage is just to make the use of those skills in dialectic and rhetoric stage easier. They can be released to think deeply because they are not tripping over proper usage or math facts or whatever... It isn't an end in it's self, and it isn't mastery. It is a beginning. =0)

Let me know if you have questions, and I will *try* to answer. I have been studying classical ed for many years now, and it is hard to distill it down to an email. =0)

ETA: Classical ed allows for accomodation just like any other kind. But the difference is that the accomdation must lead to mastery. you can't just pass them up the line without mastery in the Classical approach, because it assumes that there are some things that must be known. But it is totally appropriate to use computer as accomodation for dysgraphic kids or etc... We remove all barriers to the content. That is not the same as removing barriers to graduation, like many public schools do. Rigor and discipline are character producing, and struggle is important to thought. But that is another topic. =0)

Let me know how it goes. =0)

Cindyc.

Oh, ETA, I don't edit for this medium.


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## 78Parrothead (Apr 6, 2013)

Have you tried teaching your ds to type? There are a number of free typing lessons online. 

Instead of free writing, perhaps teaching him to write from an outline will help. Each number is a paragraph, and each letter a supporting sentence. He can then just write one sentence about each point. When he is done withe each point he starts a new paragraph. 

Have most of his summaries done orally. Even if you are in a state that requires a portfolio check you'll usually only need one or two papers per quarter. 

It sounds like he is an auditory learner. Play to that as much as possible.


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