# Rabbit Pen: 1 yr later



## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

Hello to all! I haven't posted in a while, a LONG while, but I thought of you all today when I was out taking pics of the rabbits.

Well, it was a year ago in January that I decided to put all the rabbits together in my fenced garden area. After much culling and worrying about coccidiosis, we seem to have some wonderfully healthy rabbits. While I DO NOT recommend this for commercial meat rabbits, it has worked nicely for my family, dogs and cats. Oh, and the chickens love the "guts" too! I have a freezer full of rabbit meat and my dogs have the nicest teeth, lol. 

While I know that cages are essential in a commercial rabbitry, I also have the benefit of being able to enjoy watching the rabbits scurry about interacting with each other. A peaceful and fun way to spend the evening.

Funny how they could dig out and run away if they chose to, Lord knows, their holes are deep enough. But here they stay, happy and healthy, making more bunnies all the time.

Cindy


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## CJ (May 10, 2002)

Well that's cool! But... don't they eat all your garden????


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

CJ said:


> Well that's cool! But... don't they eat all your garden????


LOL, no, the goats took care of that the previous year. I guess i should have said my "previous" garden area. :haha:


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## CJ (May 10, 2002)

Can you catch them at all? I'd love to try that. Keeping the little guys caged up kinda bothers me.


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

CJ said:


> Can you catch them at all? I'd love to try that. Keeping the little guys caged up kinda bothers me.


Well...no. :haha: I guess I could if I absolutely HAD to and I had been training for a marathon. There are just too many holes for them to run into everywhere. I have nets and if 3 or 4 of us got in there and were quick, we might be able to catch one. But I doubt it.

How do I catch them for meat you ask?  
With a .22 rifle to the head.


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## CJ (May 10, 2002)

Lol


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## MelissaW (Jun 18, 2003)

It sounds great, Cindy! I am getting a new chicken coop this year, and was thinking about putting some rabbits in my big chicken tractor, but I was concerned about them digging out. How big is your penned in area? Do you think a couple of bunnies would stay in a 3 1/2 x 10 foot chicken tractor? I have two nice hutches, but I think they would be so much happier on grass!


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

My pen is, I dunno, I really never measured it, I'd say about 25x40ft. As far as your buns getting out, you'd just have to try it and see. If they are tame you shouldn't have any problem catching them if they get out. Mine are wild as heck! Domestic but certainly not tame!


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

Here it is:


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

How do you feed them? I've heard some people toss in a bale of hay. Garden scraps in the summer, of course. We're planning on doing this now that the ground has thawed and we can drive posts again. About how many big rabbits do you have? Do you know how many bucks and does? Thanks for the update, I've been wondering.


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

We have 4-5 does and one buck. We will keep one or two occasionally and cull any that fight, which is rare. 

We feed them pellets in an automatic galvanized dog feeder. We throw in a flake of hay until the grass starts growing in there. I give them household greens when I have any. They love oranges and lemons too. For water, we put a Rubbermaid water trough in there and rigged up an automatic dog waterer to it. I put a sheet over it to keep out debris and put a little chlorine bleach a couple times a week to keep out algae. In the winter they don't drink as much and we just use a large heated dog bowl filled with water.

We didn't have much there for shade so I took the kid's trampoline (they all outgrew it) and it's perfect for them!


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2004)

Hey "purty one" good to hear from you again! I'm glad you posted that picture. I once mentioned growing rabbits that way on this forum and people thought I was crazy. (Well they might be right but not for that reason) I read about people over in Croatia raising rabbits this way and other countries as well. If it works for them then it had ought to work here in the U.S. as well. Of coarse I'm still dreaming of doing it as I was 4 or 5 years ago!  

Do have a question for you. Do you keep the auto feeder full at all times so they can eat when they want or do you just put in a daily ration amount for the day? Also how do you control parasites such as fleas and ticks?


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

Hi r.h.! I've missed this place, so here I am again...



> Do you keep the auto feeder full at all times so they can eat when they want or do you just put in a daily ration amount for the day?


We keep it full at all times. I seriously do not have an accurate count of the number of babies underground that come up and eat when we aren't looking. I think that rabbits in a cage have nothing to do but eat so they will eat more than my rabbits in the pen. My buns are always digging or chewing on apple tree branches or grooming each other or just sunning. They seem to be "busy" all the time.



> Also how do you control parasites such as fleas and ticks?


We worried about that even when we had them caged but never have any problems with it. Haven't seen any on any of them.

The only downside to the "pen" is getting cats to understand that baby bunnies are not there for the taking. Mother rabbits do not defend their young, except by biting us, the hand that feeds them, LOL. A couple of shots fired over their heads cured two of my three cats. The 3rd is in kitty heaven.


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## gnatgnome (Oct 7, 2002)

MelissaW, I made a smaller version of a chicken tractor for my rabbits. Unfortunately it does not have wheels and is a weight lifting event for me to move/slide it to fresh grass. Wheels will be going on it this year. I learned the hard way one very rainy morning last summer that rabbits do dig out.  I looked out the window with my morning coffee and thought I saw a rabbit running around by my chicken house. I thought it was too big to be a wild rabbit and went to the window to look closer. There was another and another hopping around in the rain. I yelled for my dd to get up and help. I ran out into the rain and we were able to catch 8 of the 12 naughty bunnies. My mama rabbit had given us a rather large number of babies. Good thing they were use to eating treats out of my hand or I might not have caught any. The problem was solved by putting chicken wire over the bottom of the tractor. The holes in the mesh are 2" and this keeps them from getting out. They still dig but at least they can't escape. I keep expecting some kind of hybrid wild/domestic rabbits to be running around since the 4 that escaped were 3 months old at the time and I never saw any of our cats or our dog with any rabbit carcases.


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## gnatgnome (Oct 7, 2002)

I forgot to add 12 is really too many. I built a second one and each houses 5-6 very comfortably and I move (dh usually) it every morning and evening. This years latest batch of babies are going in their new home this weekend.  They are getting too crowed in their current cage and the grass is finally getting long enough for bunnie grazing.


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## apirlawz (Dec 26, 2003)

Hi all,
rh, I also read about rabbit raising in Croatia, and I thought they might be on to something! So, I did the same thing for my 3 "retired" NZ Reds this spring. I'm going to be getting new breeding stock this summer, so I thought I do a little experimenting before they got here. Luckily for me, I was able to complete the whole project from materials I scrounged from the old farm we bought this winter!!  

The first thing I did, however, was to lay out chicken wire on the ground to form a large footprint of the area that I was going to fence in for the rabbits. Once this was down, I drove my posts in about 6" in from the outer edges of the chicken wire, and fenced it with 4' high 2"x4" wire fencing. After this, I put down about 4" of soil over the chicken wire, tamped it down, and spread straw over the whole thing. I used old cinder blocks to frame the outer perimeter of the pen and hold down the chicken wire that extends outside of the fence. I put down my "nesting boxes", which are comprised of old 1'x 1.5' wooden shipping boxes and disassembled pet carriers. The finished pen is about 7'x15'. 

My rabbits took about 1 day to get to know each other, and by the next day, they were basking in the sun together! As old as they are, it's a lot of fun to see them running around, and playing on the ground rather than laying on wire all day. The do eat much less than they did when they were caged, although they are far more active. The do dig a little in the nest boxes, but the chicken wire keeps them in, so they are limited to just a little "remodeling" to the entrances of the boxes with soil and straw. I go in to the pen every day with fresh greens I've picked for them, so that keeps them pretty tame. They are much larger than the two kittens that came with the farm, so the kittens are learning a healthy respect for them, which I'm hoping will nip any future issues in the bud. 

I do not have a roof or wire over the top of the pen, but I'm hoping that the tree canopy helps to keep the hawks disinterested. That, and the fact that the rabbits are very similar in color to the straw covering the ground has kept them safe so far. I'm not sure how a white rabbit would fare in that situation, but I guess I'll be finding out soon enough!
April


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2004)

April please keep us posted on how things go for you. It will be interesting to listen to.


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## MelissaW (Jun 18, 2003)

Gnatgnome, can the rabbits still graze with the wire on the bottom? I imagine long grass gets a little matted underneath, but shorter grass probably sticks through. I once had 18 dutch rabbits escape from their sun pen! We got all but one of the little ones back. We saw him around the woods for a few months, but then he disappeared. We sold the rabbits three years ago, but I kind of miss them. I'm considering a couple of lops or dwarf rabbits. They're all so sweet, I can't decide!


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## apirlawz (Dec 26, 2003)

Well rh, here's my first update!  Well, actually, not much to report other than after 2 months, everything is going well. But I do have a question for those allowing their rabbits to graze. 

As soon as anything green started peeking through this spring, I would pick it and give it to the buns. I'd start with a few leaves of curly dock, dandilions, or grass, but that increased steadily each day as new growth came in. Now, the three rabbits eat a packed basket (aprox. 6-8 cups!) each day. I've seen no adverse effects - diarrhea, listlessness, etc. The do eat about 1/4 of the pellets they did before they got fresh greens, and drink slightly less water. It looks like the salt/mineral spool is getting a little less attention also...although being out in the weather, it's hard to tell. They have gorgeous coats, and needless to say, they get really happy when they see me coming!! Of course, it takes a little longer to gather everything daily, but I really think it's worth the effort. And heck, if I'm gonna have these weeds on my farm, they better be paying their way!! :haha: 

So, this begs the question...what's the big deal about fresh greens??  I've heard so many people making it sound like fresh greens are practically a no-no, that they can only be fed in very limited portions. I can see if I gave a cage-raised rabbit a pound of carrots, (or broccoli, cabbage, etc.) suddenly after being raised on pellets only, or making any other drastic diet changes, but is there any other reason that I am totally missing here? I can't understand how wild rabbits thrive off the stuff, but it is supposedly only to be an occasional treat for domesticated cousins! I can see how a "limited" diet of greens...say if I only fed dock, or only grass, etc...could lead to nutritional deficiencies that would be avoided by feeding a more complete pellet. With this in mind, I've been trying to get as much of a variety that I can...and that I can identify!! Would hate to inadvertently poison the little buggers! 

But anyway, I'd love to hear any feedback from anyone doing the same thing, or something similar. This seems to be working really well so far, and barring some bad reactions, I would like try to wean the rabbits I'll be getting later this summer over to fresh food. Of course, I have no idea what effect this will have on breeding does, but I have to imagine that as long as I continue to offer minerals and pellets, I should have my bases covered.

April


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## Michael Leferink (Jul 12, 2003)

Just a little food for thought. Domestic rabbits have been bred in captivity for centuries. Their systems might not behave the same way a wild rabbit's does. After all, hundreds of years of selctive breeding is a form of genetic engineering.
Also, the Domestic rabbit is decended from the European rabbit. Not the North American rabbit. The two are genetically different. And there are probably plants growing here that don't grow there. The domestic rabbit might not have evolved to handle some of these plants.
I know people raised rabbits on home grow food before modern pelleted feed was invented. I also know they had major problems with growth rates, parisites and poisonous plants growing in their fields. It was also difficult to supply enough food in the winter. I constantly worry that I might get some hay one day that has poisonous plants in it.
I would suggest anyone thinking about feeding their rabbits fresh greens or cuttings from their yard to do a very good search for harmful plants. I have met aleast three people who lost all of their rabbits because they gave the rabbits too much iceberg lettuce. Gabbage and it's relatives are known to be harmful to domestic rabbits, as well.
I certainly am not saying that folks should never raise their rabbits in this way. Just suggesting that they do plenty of research. I looked into this for about five years in the 1980's and again over the last 16 mths. The vast majority of the professionals I have been in contact with, feed only high quality pelleted feed and hay. I've decided to stay with their recommendation.
I'm glad it seems to be working out for you. Please let the board know if you run into any problems.

Mike


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

I certainly would heed Michael's advice if you want to be on the safe side. It definitely is proven to be safe to feed pellets, hay and fresh water.

That being said, here's what I do. I feed them spinach, lettuce (not iceberg, heck I don't even eat that garbage :haha: ) melon rinds, citrus fruits, apple tree branches, clover, dandilions, aparagus, cauliflower, carrots, etc. The grass takes longer to come up in the pen but when it does, they free range off that. I always have a full feeder with pellets available. We have lost many rabbits over the last 16 months. Some due to coccidiosis, some due to  we really don't know. The strong survived. The weak were culled or died. We now have a healthy stock that works for us. In my opinion, that happens when they are caged also. Only difference for me is, I never know how many kits are underground at any time and I don't know who is breeding who anymore. I only had one male in there, he died and then we put another in there. Now that we are letting some of the young'ns become breeders, we are just going to see what happens. I'm sure they will pick their territories and if there is any fighting, those will be culled.

Two months is a short time. You may be sad when some die or have to be culled. Don't be afraid to cull. That was one of the best pieces of advice I got from this board. Culling is so very important. I think it's harder to do when they free range because they seem so much nicer. It's so much easier to cull a doe that lunges at your hand when you stick it in their cage! 

DH just put more in the freezer yesterday and with BBQ season in full swing, all I can say is, it's MUCH BETTER than chicken!


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## apirlawz (Dec 26, 2003)

Thanks, Michael and Cindy. It's really great to get good information from people who are actually doing this!! :worship: Beats the heck out of trying to learn it all on my own the hard way! 

I can definitely understand the concern about poisonous plants, it's been a concern of mine too. I've been pretty picky about the plants I gather - so far, it has been curly dock, dandilions, and grass. I know that these are far more nutritious than, say, iceberg lettuce. Isn't that stuff basically water in an edible container? Like I'd mentioned earlier, it was a gradual increase from a few leaves/blades per day to becoming a majority of what they choose to eat. And of course, they always have access to pellets...it's just that those feeders are staying full longer! I did take into consideration that I'd have to change back to hay and pellets in the winter. And thinking about it a bit more, I will probably try to keep fresh food as a minority of the diet for the new rabbits coming this summer until I can go though a whole year with the older ones and see how they handle the transition. 

Cindy, you brought up a good point about being able to cull. This was somthing that I did a lot of soul searching about before I decided to get rabbits. For me, it was a matter of having a definite plan before I got the three I have now. Before I got them I had to decide why I wanted rabbits (safe, non-medicated supply of fresh meat), exactly how I would dispatch of them (.22 rather than snapping necks), and who would be responsible for the deed (Me! I was the one who decided to do this, so I'm not going to dump the dirty work on dh!) I decided to start with older, non-breeding rabbits that would give me an opportunity to experiment on different housing/feeding techniques on rabbits I didn't depend on. 

I'm certainly not in it for commercial purposes, or to maximize food conversion, I think it really would be foolish to attempt this method for economic gain! My goal is to develop a slightly hardier and disease resistant strain that will thrive in a more natural environment...another way of saying I'm going to let Darwinism take over! But, I do know that I'm going to recognize weakness long before they would die on their own, which means a lot of culling on my part. Of course, I'm not looking forward to killing the cute fuzzies that gather around my feet everyday, but as a hunter and someone who resepcts the life of animals, I understand the alternative of not culling is really *not* an alternative for me...besides, I got the guys for food in the first place! 

Basically, for me it boils down to my personal set of principles and ethics. I know that every year, hundreds of animals die to enable me and dh to live. With that in mind, I want to be the one resonsible for those animals when possible. I want to know they've lived a healthy life as free from stess/excessive confinement/medications as possible. And when it comes time to kill these animals, I want that to be done as stress-free as possible also...at least for the animals. As far as my stress, well, I'm the one doing the consuming, so I need to do the deed. One of my "soapbox issues" is the fact that a majority of Peta/Left-wing animal rights folks seem to have no idea what "life" is...meat is not produced in the same factory that makes the styrofoam and shrink wrap it's packaged in. Leather does not come from the same textile mills their cotton towels came from. While I do not hold the belief that animals were place on this earth by God solely for man's service, I do belive that I am part of the food chain, and if I choose to eat meat, I should be fully aware of where that meat comes from. For me, it naturally followed that I should take responsibility for that life and death. 

But anywho..this is becoming more philosophical than rabbit related, so I'll cut myself off here...(waiting for the collective sigh of relief...  ) 
Again, thanks Michael and Cindy for the great advice, I'll most likely be back for more! (you know what they say about feeding stray dogs...  )
April


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## Oilpatch197 (Apr 18, 2004)

In that picture, the Trampoline is for shade right? they don't actually jump on it right?


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

Oilpatch197 said:


> In that picture, the Trampoline is for shade right? they don't actually jump on it right?


Right! And it's a wonderful solution to "What do I do with this huge thing now that the kids are grown?".


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## dave in upstate (Sep 4, 2003)

Any more news from you Free-rangers, Rabbit Tractor Drivers, or Colony raisers? I am still really interested in this approach. Sorry, raising for homestead meat, not commercial profit, so more interested in thrift, and profit from money savings, than from selling rabbits commercially.

Dave


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## Meg Z (Jun 8, 2004)

I'm glad to see this thread on here! 

We raised NZW in a colony like this when I was a kid...we're talking 35 years ago. They also had huge burrows, and I always wondered why they didn't dig out, but they never did.

I have seen it done (seen as in pictures, not in person, unfortunately!) by removing the sod, digging out a pit, and cementing it, and packing in bales of hay. The rabbits burrowed through the hay. Some hay was eaten, I'm sure, but it wasn't mean't as a food source, it was to give them a burrowing place. After a certain amount of time a new one was built, the animals were transferred/culled, etc. and the old hay was composted. Now, I don't remember how long the setup was in place, and it certainly wasn't how the bunnies were harvested for meat. I think it was controlled by the breakdown of the hay. (or was it straw??) Certainly not something for commercial growers, but for table profit, it might be worth it for some. Especially if they had use for the compost. If I had an old cement slab from an old building on my property, I might divide it into two and try it out. But, I'm working on French Angoras for fiber and meat, and that would certainly not work for them!!

I'll see if I can find my original source on the hay bale thing. You've tweaked my memory!

Meg


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

Funny you should post right about now, Dave. 

I heard the .22 rifle going off on Tues and came out to see hubby taking out the bunnies ready for slaughter. He put 8 in the freezer that day. There's many more litters running around in there and they will be freezer ready soon. The dogs, chickens and cats love eating the heads, guts and feet. Nothing goes to waste except the pelts. I still can't get the tanning right.  

We have a chain link gate on the pen and some of the smaller bunnies get out and the cats get them but that's okay, we have plenty. We've trained the cats to stay out of the pen.

All I can say is we've been doing this for almost 2 years now and it's working great for us!


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## dcdalton (Sep 2, 2004)

So how does this work with handling weather? We live in south central Washington and have a couple of weeks a year where it gets over 90 and we also have several cold weeks during the winter. We also live in an area with high winds. How would they handle that?


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

dcdalton said:


> So how does this work with handling weather? We live in south central Washington and have a couple of weeks a year where it gets over 90 and we also have several cold weeks during the winter. We also live in an area with high winds. How would they handle that?


I can sum it all up in one word. Underground. They escape the heat as well as the cold. Although they do have fur coats and really prefer the snow. I know this because they lay in the snow but go underground more in the summer and come out in the evening when the sun starts to go down. Same as wild rabbits! 

We've also had a couple of inches of rain and I saw the pen completely flooded with water. No rabbits anywhere in sight. :no: I was sure they were all dead. Nope. they all survived. 

Oh yeah, I also provide shelters that they use too. I have an upside down water trough with holes cut for them to go in and out of and a dog house and the trampoline and a plywood "tent", to name a few.


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## ozarkin'it (Jul 28, 2004)

So how do you decide whats poison and whats not? Example, carla emrys book has a list, and spinach is listed as poison, but someone on this post said they feed spinach.???
also, someone told me once that the reason you dont go green with domestic rabbits, is becasue of so much controlled feeding and breeding for whatever number of years has caused rabbits in general to have very thin stomachs compared to wild rabbits, and they cant handle green stuff.


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

Well, if spinach is poison, then my pen is full of rabbit ghosts. :haha: I feed them spinach, carrots, watermelon, cantelope, all kinds of stuff from the fridge, depending on the season. They like peaches and nectarines, too. They are eating the grass in there now also. The pic above is before the grass came in. Now it is lush and green and they nibble on it all day. I still feed them pellets, too. I guess I don't feed them "weeds", other than clover, dandelions, etc. that I pick early in the season before the grass comes in.


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## Miz Mary (Feb 15, 2003)

so, all the buns get along - females and males ?? Do you spay and nueter ? how old are you letting the bunnies get before you take out the males ?!?!


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

so, all the buns get along - females and males ?? 

Yes. Whoever did not "get along" in the beginning was taken out for dog food. There is a pecking order but they all understand who the "bosses" are so there is no fighting.

Do you spay and nueter ? 

No. There is no reason to raise pets.

how old are you letting the bunnies get before you take out the males ?!?!

We take out the males when we see them breeding the females and we do not want that particular rabbit to be one of our bucks. We have no way of telling who is what (male or female) until we have shot them for food or they are of breeding age. It's nearly impossible to catch any of our rabbits except a few of our females. They are our best breeders and we can hand feed them. They trust us. The babies are "wild".


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## Xandras_Zoo (Jul 21, 2004)

Jesus, that must take a long time to take out 8 of them! I mean, don't they all bolt when they hear the gun? And then don't you have to wait for them to come out again?


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## Xandras_Zoo (Jul 21, 2004)

And also.... do you have any more/ larger pictures to share?


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

Xandras_Zoo said:


> Jesus, that must take a long time to take out 8 of them! I mean, don't they all bolt when they hear the gun? And then don't you have to wait for them to come out again?


No, actually we have a shooting range here and they hear guns going off all the time. They haven't put 2+2 together, I guess. They, as well as my other animals (including horses) don't really even flinch when they hear shots.

And also.... do you have any more/ larger pictures to share?

Yes I do but I'm too lazy to post them.


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## Xandras_Zoo (Jul 21, 2004)

Rabbits certainly aren't the brightest critters....

I found a site about keeping rabbits colony-style. http://www.blackmesaranchonline.com/animals/rabbits.htm
They have some pictures... I just like seeing different ideas. Inspiring.

A question for Cindy (and anyone else who might have something to put in):
I was going to breed rabbits, you know, the norm, in a cage in a shed. But, the more I thought about it, the more the I didn't like the idea. I have pets, and am not really into doing them in, let alone eating rabbit. I was going to do the show bunny thing. But, then, if they got sick, we'd have to take them to the vet (getting the idea yet? lol). I read that apart from fleas and ticks, colony-raised rabbits are generally healthier then cage-kept rabbits. Plus, they'd get exersize, so I wouldn't feel bad about leaving them in their cages. So, I'm re-thinking this. I wouldn't keep the bucks in with the does, he'd be in a hutch, but I'd take a doe to the buck every once in a while. I make the floor mesh, so they couldn't dig their own tunnels, and make them a small shed with some nestboxes for their home. I'd hand-feed the does and kits, to keep them friendly, and take the kits inside for socialization. Or I might keep the kits in the house all along, and then take them to the doe to be fed (I heard you could do that with Angoras). I was thinking Dutch and/or French lops. What do you think, Cindy?


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

Xandras_Zoo said:


> What do you think, Cindy?


If you're not showing them and you're not raising them for meat, what are you going to do with all of them? 

May I suggest getting a couple of females and just putting them in your pen as pets? I would strongly discourage Angoras as they need constant brushing and grooming. 

We sometimes have 50 or so bunnies underground at any given time. If you breed even one female, you could end up with 8-10 more rabbits. Then what? If you don't want to "do them in", what will you do with all your bucks?

Breeding rabbits is not for everyone. There is a lot of culling that needs to be done and if you cannot kill a rabbit, it may not be for you. One of my favorite does got sick and we had to cull her. It was hard but I knew going into this that the health of the herd is what matters most.

Why not try it with 2 does and see how that works for you?


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## Xandras_Zoo (Jul 21, 2004)

I would get show quaility bunnies, not just mediocre ones. I would show them, at ARBA shows and 4-H. Sorry I didn't make my intentions clearer. 

The young bucks would have to go into cages... I forgot about that, thanks for reminding me of it.

I completely understand what you're saying. If you have meat rabbits, you can just sort of let them fly at it, and cull them when you feel you have too many or when you want rabbit stew for dinner. With pets, the whole situation would be completely 100% hopeless. With show rabbits, I thought it would be the same as keeping them in cages, just as long as you made sure no doe got pregnant that you didn't want pregnant. And since we're in a city where condos are popping up faster then you can count, the demand for a small, cheap animal that can live in an apartment is high. And, since the rabbits I would have would be show quaility, if I felt that things really weren't working out, I could give to nearby breeders nearby. What do you need to kill them for, if not to just keep them from over-populating? I understand they could get sick, but is it likely? I have 9 pet rabbits already, and the only vet expense I've had with them is one, who has a buggered nose, needed antibiotics. 

Does that help explain what I'm doing with them all?


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

Xandras_Zoo said:


> And, since the rabbits I would have would be show quaility, if I felt that things really weren't working out, I could give to nearby breeders nearby. What do you need to kill them for, if not to just keep them from over-populating? I understand they could get sick, but is it likely? I have 9 pet rabbits already, and the only vet expense I've had with them is one, who has a buggered nose, needed antibiotics.
> 
> Does that help explain what I'm doing with them all?


Sometimes they need to be "killed" because they have a disease (coccidiosis, snuffles, etc) and taking every rabbit to the vet is not feasible. In fact, we do not take any rabbit to the vet. I also do not want the rest of my herd to be infected. And yes, living in a colony, they are very likely to spread disease. We spent a whole year culling rabbits that were not healthy enough. We kill them for meat. If they are not for our own consumption, then they are fed to the dogs, cats and chickens.

I would also think that breeders would not be wanting your excess rabbits. I would certainly make sure you had someone willing to take them from you before you began breeding them for pets. It's not as easy as you think to get rid of bunnies. Even that requires work. The only rabbits I ever sold to a pet store were Netherland Dwarfs and only at Christmas and Easter. 

I am not trying to discourage you. You asked for my opinion and that's what you got!

Good luck.


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## rrtharlies (Nov 24, 2004)

I have been thinking about doing a colony with my Harlequins, similar to this. What do you think would happen if they were just left alone? Suppose the markings would improve, or become worse as the generations went by? I am really curious to just see what happens. Any thoughts?


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

Funny you should ask...

I put a female Harlequin in with my herd and she is the ONLY Harlequin in there...well, not anymore! She went in with my Rex, New Zealands, Californians, etc. and now I have what appears to be many Harlequins! Very pretty ones at that. Some are identical to their mother while others are more beautiful. I don't breed for anything other than personal meat consumption for my family and pets but I have a pen full of colorful bunnies to enjoy too!

I must admit, the prettier they are the better their chance of survival is, LOL.


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## dave in upstate (Sep 4, 2003)

Cindy:

How is this experiment still working for you? Are you still happy with the results?
Dave


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

dave in upstate said:


> Cindy:
> 
> How is this experiment still working for you? Are you still happy with the results?
> Dave


Oh my, YES!!! It will be two years since we started the "experiment" and we no longer consider it an experiment but a successful way for us to raise our meat rabbits.

It's funny because the older rabbits teach the younger rabbits to trust us. No stomping on the ground to warn others of our approach. Instead, they all come running (or should I say hopping?) to us when we come to the fence. I guess the way to a rabbit's heart is through it's stomach, LOL. I was feeding them leftover greens and cereal from our kitchen yesterday and they will actually eat out of my hand. When they were caged, they would rather bite me and always stomped in their cages. I guess I would too if I were locked up!

Here's some pics of the rabbits. Some that made an escape are yard rabbits, LOL. They are the little ones in the green grass. 

Rabbits 

I'll take some more pics today of the entire pen. I got a new camera for an early Christmas present.


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## Paul Wheaton (May 10, 2002)

I tried to follow the link, but it started asking me questions about my birthday and stuff. Is there a way to upload pics here?


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

That's weird. I can't get it to work. 

PM your email to me and I'll email you the pics if you'd like.

Cindy


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## CountryGoalie (Aug 31, 2004)

I find the idea of raising rabbits in a colony very fascinating. At the moment, I raise Harlequins and Satins - both to show, and our culls are either food for other animals (Harlies) or food for us (Satins). I know that I wouldn't be able to the do the colony approach with them, as for show/breeding purposes, we need to be able to keep a record of who's baby belongs to whom.  

However, I would be interested in perhaps trying to colony with some of the crosses that we have. What kind of fencing did you use? Also, do you have any protective screening across the top? I know you have a trampoline, but not everyone has the luck of finding an unwanted one for their bunnies.  I've seen hawks in our area, and I'm sure there are plenty of owls in our nearby woods - what means would you recommend on keeping said critters out? 

Also, we are in the middle of a "lake effect" zone... we get lots of snow. I would probably need to provide them with some sort of indoor area to get into, but that would present the problem of extra snow in the pen when it slides of the roof! What to do, what to do.

Also, I've read about some who keep their chickens and rabbits together - wouldn't coccidiosis (sp?) be a problem? Our dogs contracted it once by getting into some chicken droppings, would this be a likelihood for the rabbits as well? 

Also, with as much snow as we get... we would have to supplement with hay and perhaps pellets more, wouldn't we? 

Just some questions.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

Paul Wheaton said:


> I tried to follow the link, but it started asking me questions about my birthday and stuff. Is there a way to upload pics here?



The link logged me in using my AOL Instant Messenger ID, which I already had up by using AIM.. SO I got to to see them! Very colorful....

Pam


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

You'd be surprised how many folks would love to get rid of their trampolines, LOL.

We put some things in the pen in the beginning for shade purposes as there are no trees in there. We get lots of snow and they really prefer snow to heat. They tunnel underground for warmth in the winter and to get cool for the summer. I wouldn't worry about them getting too cold in the snow. They will dig and make a home. Just make sure to keep water available (check back through this thread to read about what I use) and hay and pellets. If your rabbits are used to being caged,they don't feel the need to dig out of the HUGE pen. In fact, it was sad to see they had trouble using their legs as intended at first. Muscle atrophy.  

We have an owl in our pasture that feeds on the escape artists and there are plenty to go around. The chain link gate is where the little guys make their escape. We have more bunnies than we need so we never worried about it. I have a great dog that keeps predators off our property but there is an electrical wire that crosses the top of the pen and I think that deters the flying predators. A simple X with rope or visible wire across a pen should stop flying intruders. 

Then there are cats. We have had to shoot "at" our cats several times for them to get the idea but they stay out of the pen now. Any buns that escape are fair game. 

I think I mentioned earlier in this thread that we have had some flooding in the pen before due to a really heavy rain. I was certain that every rabbit in there had drowned. Nope! Don't ask me how but they survived. 

We always keep an automatic dog feeder full of rabbit pellets in the pen. We also feed kitchen scraps year round along with supplementing hay in the winter.


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## CountryGoalie (Aug 31, 2004)

My worry isn't so much that they would get too cold in the weather - the temp never drops below zero (at least not by more than five degrees, and such cold days are rare), but we do get windchill at up to twenty below occasionally. We've only ever had one rabbit who appeared to detriment from the weather, and it was a baby who was ill before it got cold, and I think that her immune system was compromised and as such her ears got frostbite. She grew up looking like she'd had a run-in with a lawnmower.  

_Anyway_, what I'd be more worried about is the depth of snow. We get a lot of snow, and I'd be worried about it getting too deep for them unless we keep it shoveled out. And boy would _that_ be a farm chore no one would want to do. :haha: Anyway. I'll have to see if I can convince my parents to let me try setting a colony up in the spring of some of my older meat-production does and some of my "ugly" harlies.


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## ak homesteader (Jul 15, 2004)

Hi,

I'm Mrs. AK Homesteader. I'm so glad to have found this thread! We've been thinking about raising rabbits again, but didn't want raise them in cages. I was planning to ask about raising them this way but figured I'd get scolded out of the forum :waa:  We had caged rabbits for awhile. The buck escaped on occasion and always seemed to enjoy mingling with the chickens and goats. He always came to me as soon as I went to get him, so I just hated putting him back in his cage. 

Could you free range rabbits like chickens? We do have predators, but it's not a terrible problem. The chickens just signal and run for shelter when there's danger. I would think the rabbits would do the same. I don't know if I'd want to house my chickens and rabbits together, but if they were all free ranging together during the day, I don't know if they would behave and go to their respective houses at night  

Food is our BIG concern. We have to charter a plane to fly in anything we can't grow or hunt, so any significant amount of pellets is out. Our rabbits did good during the summer and fall, but we terribly underestimated the amount of food they'd need for the winter. We had to eat them sooner than expected  I know that wild rabbits and domestic rabbits are different, but it seems that there should be a way to raise rabbits without store-bought food year round in a place like Alaska that has so many wild rabbits. We did it with goats, but had to thin our chicken flock and feed them all winter. We get about 8 feet of snow, temps sometimes to 30 below zero. Our caged rabbits handled the cold just fine. We've talked to folks who raised guineas (sp) by just getting the stock, feeding them confined for a bit, letting them go. Soon they got a little wild and flew the coop, but required no feeding. They sort of hung around the general area, so when they were needed for food, they were hunted. Just wondering if something like that might work for rabbits? 

Just a thought. We're looking for ideas since wild game isn't as plentiful in our area as we'd like. If we do rabbits again we'll likely end up with a sort of tractor thing or doing it like Cindy. But free ranging is appealing to me. 

Mrs. AK Homesteader


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

> Could you free range rabbits like chickens? We do have predators, but it's not a terrible problem.


It may become one, you may be inviting a family of hawks or something similar to move in. They won't go after chickens but they certainly will pick off the bunnies! 

If you have a large wild rabbit population, they may breed with your rabbits.

If I were you, here is what I would do. I would keep a group of does and a buck caged for the winter. If you let them free range and have to supplement with pellets, they are going to each much more. I'd have say...4 does and a buck. In the Spring, I would put them out in a pen or tractor or even allow them to free range. When the buns are big enough to hunt, fill your freezer or can the meat (Never tried canning meat but I know it can be done. Must taste like canned chicken, LOL). In the fall, right before winter, either cage the does and bucks again or slaughter them and start over with a new set in the spring.

It's an experimental thing you have to work on. We didn't just get lucky, we culled and culled any rabbits that showed signs of snuffles or anything that could affect the entire herd. You can't get emotionally attached to them. I have my favorites, especially the only doe that is the only one of the original rabbits left. If she becomes sick, she will be culled. It won't be easy but that is what DH is for,  .

Best of luck!


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## boren (Jan 7, 2004)

Call me skeptical but how does free range rabbits differ from managing a feral rabbit colony? I'm not sure anyone could advocate purposely creating a domestic rabbit population. They aren't native to this continent, they can't breed with north american rabbits. On those grounds alone I'm not sure it's wise.


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

boren said:


> They aren't native to this continent, they can't breed with north american rabbits.



Correct. I didn't do my homework, LOL.

Rabbit Myths


Myth #10
Domestic rabbits can interbreed with hares and cottontails
--Fluff 'N Stuff Rabbitry (est 1987)

The Truth: Hares (Lepus) have 24 pairs of chromosomes while the domestic rabbit (Oryctolagus) has 22 and the cottontail (Sylvilagus) has 21 pair. While mating is possible between the different species, the resulting embryos will die after a few cell divisions because of the differences in the number of chromosome pairs.


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## ak homesteader (Jul 15, 2004)

boren said:


> Call me skeptical but how does free range rabbits differ from managing a feral rabbit colony? ...... They aren't native to this continent, they can't breed with north american rabbits. On those grounds alone I'm not sure it's wise.


Free ranging rabbits, if they went feral, would not differ at all from a feral rabbit colony. That's exactly what we'd love to do! I wouldn't expect them to breed with the wild hares we have here. (BTW, if we had a large population of wild hares in our area of the state at the moment [the wild population rises and falls], as there is elsewhere in Alaska, we'd be snaring and shooting them instead of concerning ourselves with raising animals). Many animals aren't native to this country, but they have been imported, released into the wild, thrived, and hunted. Pheasants are a perfect example. Don't know where guineas originated, but they do quite well in the wild. Most Americans aren't "native" to this continent either, but they reproduce, or "breed", if you will, and have been thriving here for hundreds of years. I was raised in a huge major city in the lower 48 where temperatures rarely fell below 40. Now I feel terribly out of place if I get close enough to a town to have running water or even see electric lights, much less to be around other people. Many Alaskans are that way. We adapt and thrive. I think some animals we generally think of as only domestic would do great in the wild, and others would die out quickly. I haven't had enough experience with rabbits to have a good idea on how well they'd do in our area, but I've heard that they're tougher and hardier than most people think. 

People raise animals for different reasons. Although for us it's strictly for food, I'm terrible about getting attached to our animals. I really loved having rabbits. It's so hard to kill and eat something you've named and held in your lap. My original post was simply a question about the physical needs of rabbits and their ability to adapt. Just trying to learn from those who have experience and information to share. Sounds like they aren't the most adaptable animals in the world. However, from what we've read, and our limited experience, it does sound like it's a possibility. Cindy, we like your idea about wintering a few does and a buck, then building the population back up every spring. That's pretty much what we do with our chickens ------ free range them during the day, let them into their house at night (or whenever they like) to protect them from bears and marten, thin them when the weather's cold enough to keep frozen meat. If the free range rabbits went feral, survived and thrived, GREAT! If they end up as home bodies, ..... well, most will end up on the dinner table the first winter. We'll have to decide if they produce enough during the summer to make it cost effective to feed some over the winter.


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## boren (Jan 7, 2004)

ak homesteader said:


> Free ranging rabbits, if they went feral, would not differ at all from a feral rabbit colony. That's exactly what we'd love to do! ... I think some animals we generally think of as only domestic would do great in the wild, and others would die out quickly. .


You've got to be kidding me right? I'm no sure which part of Alaska you're in, but along the coast, especially down the pan handle it doesn't get that cold and domestic rabbits would probably thrive. And that's a problem! 

Just google online for invasive species. Various species, be it plants, insects or animals cause all sorts of damage to wild environments they aren't native to. At least rabbits up in AK well have basic predators, but that doesn't mean it's ok to release them into the wild and encourage their growth.

Maybe I'm out on a fringe, who knows, but here's one URL, seems like someone though dometic rabbits (Oryctolagus cuniculus) would do well in Australia:

http://www.deh.gov.au/biodiversity/invasive/publications/rabbit/index.html

They do very well it seems.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

The feral population of hares SHOULD rise and fall with the predators. As the number of predators gets too great, the number of hares crash and then the numbers of predators crashes in response. 

That being so, is there any ways that you could protect or house hares during a crash? That way you would have hares to eat, and if you released the adults when the population went up it would not matter.

Mind, I have never been to Alaska and I know nothing about hares. I know that down here in Kansas, the native rabbits are very small and very nervous. They would not do well in a standard cage.


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## LizinNH (Feb 2, 2003)

Well a couple months before winter weather arrived my husband and I fenced in my rabbits. They have a large underground burrow dug. I placed logs and a hollow tree around the edges to keep them from digging out under the fence and to give them something to climb/chew on. A new litter of babies just came up a week ago. They all seem quite healthy and heavily furred.The temps here have been 30f and below. In the morning you can see steam coming up out of the burrow enterance. There are occasional fights between them, but nothing serious. Disease however can/does travel very quickly. I recently lost 6 bucks to an unidentified illness in a week. 
I will try to post a picture of the pen. if it doesnt show it can be seen at wingdo's roost under Liz in NH pictures.

http://www.msnusers.com/WingdosRoost/lizinnh.msnw



Liz in NH
Fallen Timbers Farm


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

Great pics. Thanks for posting them.

It seems to me that there may be too many rabbits for that size pen. Maybe that is why the disease is a problem and they are fighting. If it were me, I would thin the herd out.


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## LizinNH (Feb 2, 2003)

Four of the rabbits that were in the pen were pet rabbits waiting to be moved out to permanent cages. All but two of the rest were to go to the butcher the following week. Unfortunately a very fast moving illness killed them first. They were dead with in hours of finding them sick. No outward symptoms. just listlessness and a short seizure right before dying. The new litter will be sent to the butcher in a couple weeks. The permanent residents of the pen will be just two does and a buck. The pen size is approximately 20x20. The burrow underground is about 10x10. I also have a 4x8 tractor that I move them around the yard in, when there is no snow. i try to move it atleast three times a day to keep them from digging out.
I place the feed dishes in a raised hutch with door. On butchering day I just put the feed in and wait for them to come in to eat. close the door and remove them through the top door.


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## tbishop (Nov 24, 2004)

LizinNH said:


> Well a couple months before winter weather arrived my husband and I fenced in my rabbits. Fallen Timbers Farm


Hey Liz- is that a Checkered Giant I see in there?

Tim


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## LizinNH (Feb 2, 2003)

Hi, No i don't have any checkered giants. It's a mix of new zealands, Californians, one Champagne D'argent cross and pet lop eared rabbits in the picture. Unfortunately, both of the lop rabbits came down sick and died not too long ago.  

A couple of days ago we had another litter born underground. I can't wait till they come up to see how many there are.  

Liz in NH


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## inc (Dec 24, 2004)

this thread is very interesting. are there breeds of rabbits more suited to colony raisning than others?are there any breeds that are routinely colony raised?
i have wanted a system liek this when i was raising rabbits- but i doubted it was possible. i have had pet type small and also experiece with a single meat rabbit- who was huge. i doubt this animal would have been able to dig a decent burrow.also- the babies would get occasional runny bum, as the cage was wire stapled to a pallet. tho the wood was all painted very heavily and nothing could 'stick' to it permanently, i found i was weekly hosing it off as there was so much manure.
except for the hosing it was very satisfactory-but in a colony the babies would be in a uncleanable burrow...
i took the meat rabbit to be out of the hutch (3' by 2.5') about once a week to be on the lawn, but the only rabbits i had out full time on ground were some crossed males that i got to keep around as 'yard bunnies'. these animals wwer average sized not near the nz meat rabbit.
how do you set up that fence so they dont dig huge potholes in the corners like poultry?


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## MeadowSage (Jan 4, 2005)

This thread is wonderful! I'm about to build my new rabbit pen and was wondering how big it should be? Is, say, 20x20 feet big enough for 4 does and a buck plus offspring till weaning age?

Also, what about the mesh size on the fence. Is 2x4 too big? What about using a couple feet high chicken wire or 1x2 mesh near the bottom?

Hope someone's still around to answer 

Dana


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## inc (Dec 24, 2004)

check some of the previosu posts. i believe the owner put thier cull and older rabbits in the pen- the losses to disease were tremendous. rabbits are no longer used to living on the ground.you will need to have soem in cages to supply the pen with new breeders until resistance builds up.
thereis a pic of the pen- i cant tell dimesions, but isnt that more than 20'??
hey- colony raising was done years ago- how long does the ground last befoer you have to move the fence to fresh soil? it seems from all that i could gather(next to nothing) that the colony 'runs out' after a while. there was one in alaska made of chain link fence, perhasp the cold climate keeps disease at bay???
as long as im here at this location, i would like to set one up- if i can get enough forage(problem out here). i think it would be a great use of the terrain, and better than standing cages as rabbits wouldnt be spooked into breaking thier backs or having fox break in. or hunting dogs rip the bottoms of the cages out again.
any suggestions as to breeds we should try?


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## LizinNH (Feb 2, 2003)

Hi,
My pen size is currently 20x20, with five adults in it plus two litters of kits four weeks apart in age. Right now I consider it too small. I will be butchering the stock back to 2 does and one caged buck.( to controll Breeding times) The current setup has an underground burrow approximately 1/3 the size of the pen area. as far as forage growing on the ground i have a 2x4 raised grid that i will be moving around inside the pen to allow the grass/clover to regrow under it. I also supply plenty of hay and pellets. The fencing I use is 2x3 inch welded wire four feet tall. the babies are able to get out through the wire until they are about 6 weeks old. I am going too be running a 2 foot tall section of chicken hex wire around the bottom. I hope this answers some more of your questions.
liz


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## dave in upstate (Sep 4, 2003)

How are the rabbit pens going? Still interested, just not able to make a move yet, but real interested in the long-term use.

Thanks

Dave


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

dave in upstate said:


> How are the rabbit pens going? Still interested, just not able to make a move yet, but real interested in the long-term use.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dave


All is well with the rabbits. Going on 3 years now! I have so many that we give them away at an alarming rate. The freezer's full too. Thank goodness my kids all have dogs and we have friends that take them too. It's just common sense. Overcrowding ANY animal results in disease. I know they are inbreeding at this point but so far no two headed bunnies!


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## thornapplehill (May 2, 2005)

Found this article on backyard food production for developing countries. Alot of good info that we homesteaders could use, I think. Plus a description and diagram of a few colony rabbit raising techniques. Colony raising is often used in developing countries like Africa because they can't keep cool enough in cages.

http://www.fao.org/ag/againfo/subjects/documents/ibys/7.htm

(pages 5 and 6 are also good)

Shawn


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## ellebeaux (Aug 18, 2004)

My new home is in a county where you can only have chickens if you have 5 acres. I'll have 0.25 (hey, it's a start!), so I ws thinking of getting some meat rabbits but I don't want to raise them on wire in cages. 

So I will try some of these ideas - thanks!

Beaux


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## Xandras_Zoo (Jul 21, 2004)

ellebeaux said:


> My new home is in a county where you can only have chickens if you have 5 acres. I'll have 0.25 (hey, it's a start!), so I ws thinking of getting some meat rabbits but I don't want to raise them on wire in cages.
> 
> So I will try some of these ideas - thanks!
> 
> Beaux


You can only have chickens with 5 acres? Fussy, aren't they? If you really care that much, you might want to check how many rabbits you are allowed. Here, I can only have 2 (not in their wildest dreams am I gonna follow that!) per household. 

Good Luck!


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## dbarjacres (Feb 2, 2004)

Hi, Great thread! Long going too.

I want to eat healthier and cripes you can't afford it when you go to the store. I'd love to raise my own chickens, but not a chicken lover and hubby says no way, but it appears from some reading I've done, that domestic rabbit is quite good and extremely healthy. Never raised our own meat before, but we've got a start - a 5 m.o. fainting goat wether named Sausage! Hopefully by fall he'll be processed. I've raised smaller breeds of show rabbits for many years, and this is a neat idea.

Okay to prove how dumb we are about rabbits for food, which of the large breeds are the best? A friend recommends french lop crosses. And how old do the little buggers have to be for cull time? Also, for those of you who feed your dogs are you giving them the "extras" raw, or freezing and giving raw later or cooking or what? We normally get a deer in fall and take the best part of meat for sausage and the rest is cubed for winter dog stew, but we've always cooked it. Just curious with the bones and such. Thanks!


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## Cindy in IL (May 10, 2002)

dbarjminis said:


> Okay to prove how dumb we are about rabbits for food, which of the large breeds are the best? A friend recommends french lop crosses. And how old do the little buggers have to be for cull time? Also, for those of you who feed your dogs are you giving them the "extras" raw, or freezing and giving raw later or cooking or what? We normally get a deer in fall and take the best part of meat for sausage and the rest is cubed for winter dog stew, but we've always cooked it. Just curious with the bones and such. Thanks!



First off, you're NOT dumb for asking questions! We all started knowing nothing about raising rabbits and asked to learn. That's what this forum is all about.

I've always heard Californians and New Zealands were best but that may be for people selling to processing plants. We have those and have Harlequins and Rex, too.

As far as feeding the dogs, "extras" are just fine but raw is the best way to feed them. Cooked bones can become brittle. We always feed our dogs raw meat and bones from deer too. They LOVE the head of the bunnies. Their digestive system is unlike ours. When dogs eat the raw meat and bones, their feces is white and powdery without the "poop" smell, LOL. Keeps their teeth unbelievably clean, too.

Best of luck!


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## Reauxman (Sep 14, 2002)

Any updated pics?


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Bump, so I can find this thread again.


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