# Made my choice...A Bulgarian Karakachan



## motdaugrnds

I drove over today and picked up a brindle-colored puppy with perfect pedigrees...shown below.

On the way home she was calm (about a 90 min drive) whle stretching out on my old housecoat in my lap.

When we got home Cujo (our lab) showed her how to drink water, though that was the only nice thing he had to do as he took an immediate dislike to her getting HIS attention! Cujo is very obedient so this did not turn into anything I could not deal with.

She started exploring about 1,000 square feet of the territory...not much but quite a bit for an 8 week old. She was quite brave even to the extent of "jumping" off a 2 ft retainer wall..not once (when she landed on her head) but twice (when she landed on her chest). The third time she walked around it (about 6 ft.)

She started to "puppy play" with a rooster when David clapped his hands together to distract her. She looked at David, looked back at the rooster and then left the rooster to continue her exploration.

We took her into the little pen I had created just for her...also seen below...and shut the door. She did not like it and let us know she didn't. After about 3 minutes we opened the door and showed her how to come out. She came out, turned around and went right back in. Laid down and went to sleep. I took her picture and left the door open.

Later (about an hour) I went to check on her and she was missing. I stepped into the barn and called her. The sound of my voice brought her to me with tail wagging. She followed me out of the barn and started looking for ways to play. She looked at the guineas (about 3 ft from her making a lot of noise). She looked at that rooster that had initially caught her eye. She looked at Cujo. Then she decided to lay down on the grass and play with that. I flipped her onto her back and started rolling her from side to side. She was playful. I stopped. She laid down on her side and rolled by herself over and over. ROFL

Now it is getting dark. She has not been with the goats as they have been keeping their distance from this new comer, being intimidated (not by her behavior) by her very presence. So I put her back into the little pen and closed the door. She started pulling a temper tantrum I've not seen for years, howling L O N G howls and getting angry that could not get out. She found a corner where a hole was and got her nose in it. I put a large rock there. She found the rock and started growling ferociously (as much as a puppy can) at that rock because it would not move. I began to wonder oh dear, maybe I've made a mistake putting a Karakachan in a little pen! I watched this fiasco for over half an hour knowing I could NOT let her win and thinking I've really blown it now! Then I decided she needed company; so I locked the goats up in that barn so they all had to cope together! This pup continued to howl and get angry! I went in and got that old housecoat she had slept on during transport & put it into her little pen. She made a few turns, then laid down and went to sleep. That was over an hour ago and all is still calm in the barn! (Wishing I had a picture of her sleeping in that little pen on my housecoat...)

This is my first experience with an LGD and so far; so good! [Oh, this little pen is the beginnings of a shelf (about 2-1/2 x 4 ft) about 2 ft off ground and without any wire around the bottom of it, which I'm creating just for "Valentina".]


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## aart

Oh C'mon!! All that great story and no good pics of the pup?!?!?!


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## TriWinkle

aart said:


> Oh C'mon!! All that great story and no good pics of the pup?!?!?!


Kinda what I was thinking.


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## Rock

The scent thing works almost everytime to calm them down. I tell people to wear an old t-shirt work in it get it sweaty/stinky smelling like them.
Put that in with the pup on it's first night or two and it will go a long way in soothing their apprehensions.
Okay ya got your work cut out for you, good luck with the pup.

PS not sure if that orange thing is an electric cord, if so, be best to move it. All puppies chew on something till their adult teeth get set in their jaws again good luck


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks all. 

Rock the orange thing is a line I drew onto the picture so one can see where the opening is.

Here are a couple of pictures. I'm not real good at it so the face isn't as clear as I'ld like it to be. But it will give you a good idea as to the brindle coloring....see the red in the fur?


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## Maura

Your ball of fluff isn't angry. She is frightened and lonely. She's only eight weeks old- a baby. She would feel better perhaps if Cujo was kept near her.


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## Otter

I hate to tell you, but by the time she's 12 weeks old - that chicken wire will be toast.
She really needs a bigger, sturdier pen, complete with water, bed and some toys. As Rock said - pups chew. And this is going to be a big dog. Without good toys, her teething stage will be ... _memorable_.

Maurea's right - she's not angry - just a little scared and lonely. It was the right move to give her your coat. Didn't the breeder you got her from introduce her to goats? Or give you any instructions on how to introduce her? I'd call her up and ask - it will help her settle in better with less crying. As I'm sure the breeders on this forum will attest - if you ever have a question - call the breeder!! I'll bet they'll have some advice for helping her settle. It's a big experience for a little pup.

She is adorable! By the time she settles in, she'll be up for adventure, so be sure to get her used to a leash and collar now. LOL, it will help once she decides chickens are so much fun that maybe _just_ this once she'll keep chasing. She sounds like a really good pup but they all try it once.


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## motdaugrnds

Oh yes, I totally agree with all of you. She has already gotten out of that wire house half a dozen times, thru a hole she found and enlarged, under the wire (which was actually covered by cardboard) and over the wire which is over 2 ft tall.

Yes, the suggestions were to do exactly what I'm doing, i.e. keep her in something that she cannot get out of inside the barn with the goats at night and let her out to roam freely during the day. She and the goats have checked each other out and the goats do not want to have anything to do with her, though not once has she shown any signs of aggression toward them.

I saw her chewing on a stick today; so as soon as I get to town, I'll pick her up a few chew toys for the nights she spends in the wire house. (I know that chicken wire won't last long; but I only need it to last long enough for the goats to get use to her being in the barn with them at night; and I didn't want her hurt while the goats do this.)

If I had not witnessed Valentina's behavior I would have thought she was just a frightened puppy too. However, I do know the difference between a scared pup and an angry one. Valentina was definately angry! She is lonely! It is obvious she is missing her mother and litter mates. (I'm wishing I had let her get about a month older as I believe this transition would not have been as difficult for her had she been a little older.)

Yes, I will be teaching her what a collar and leash is this week. David has already started walking her around the fencing parameters (twice a day 2 circles each time). The first time she followed him she was just happy to be with him. The second time, she was more independent. Her character is already showing! It has become quite obvious she "thinks" for herself!

Cujo is just now tolerating her. He will let her lay near him, as long as she doesn't get too close. I even saw her eating some of his food today with his being nearby and knowing she was eating it. (This was a first and has not happened since as he growls and she moves.) Cujo now will also let her get attention from me without pushing in to get it for himself. I saw them both sleeping near each other this afternoon and I've been tempted to let her stay out of the wire house. I'm not sure her sleeping on the back porch with Cujo would be good for her because it is the goats I want her to bond with. Still she is so young that I'm just not sure! (I'm feeling rather mean to keep putting her back into the wire house during the night hours.)


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## Otter

if she wasn't already introduced to goats by the breeder, I don't think it will make a difference her spending the first few nights with Cujo. She's still plenty young - there will be plenty of time for her and the goats to get used to each other.

Be sure to keep us in pictures as she grows!


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## aart

Cool, she's gorgeous! Hard to take pics of black dog faces unless the sun is shining on them. 
Keep her safe from mishap!


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## motdaugrnds

Well, please remember you asked for pictures. HaHa

She isn't actually black but a very dark maroon with lighter shades next to her skin.

That bed you see is Cujo's and it is on our back porch. Cujo is eager to please and, if I actually had the time, could be trained as a service dog, though he is still too hyper. You can actually see that wish to please in his face.

Valentina's expression (with that cocked head) is letting me know she is not quite sure what I'm doing with the camera. ROFL


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## BackfourtyMI.

I am getting my male puppy from the same breeder & same litter. Mine will be home this coming sunday. My female is coming the same day but from a different breeder & totally unrelated.

This is my male puppy, Grigor.


Hope your new little girl settles in nicely. I would definitely get her some toys to chew on. Do you have a dog kennel or maybe cattle panels you can fence an area off in the goats barn for at night until her & the goats get used to each other? 
She is beautiful.


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## BackfourtyMI.

This is my female, Izgrev. She is 4 months old now & already in her own little pasture with some of the breeders yearlings & doing really well. 
We can hardly wait to get them home.

View attachment 8476


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## motdaugrnds

Backfourty, I'm not sure what you're saying. The pedigree pages shown in my original post do not show the name of the breeder from whom I purchased Valentina; and Peter Houchini's (of Running River Ranch) puppies are not ready to be sold as he doesn't like to let them go until they are 12 weeks old. So from whom did you purchase your little male? From whom did you purchase your female? (Love that coloring on her face.)

I've discovered Valentina will NOT defacate in the barn. She walks all the way to the back yard to a spot she has chosen in the grass. (She will pee in the barn, at least I saw her do so once. I grabbed her and took her out to the grass and she peed there; so as quickly as she learns, she may never pee in the barn again!)

David put a collar on her this afternoon with a very light-weight leash. He then proceeded to walk her around the parameters again. ROFL He said she was fine with the leash...as long as she could go where she wanted. ROFL So, he let her lead a little, then insisted she follow a little. He said she would sit down and/or jump around but only a little, then she would follow for a short distance. This give & take continued during the entire circling today. (I had gone to the store to get her some puppy chow and cheese treat; so she got a treat when she and David got back from their circling the last time.)

I couldn't find a toy I liked; so I cut the top of the toe off an old worn out leather shoe of mine and offerred that to Valentina. She took it and would not let go of it. She has carried that around a lot today and it is now inside her little pen with her for the night.

I do have a question. All the research I've done talks about hip/elbow problems and concerns about the rapid growth of these dogs. One breeder says to help deter such problems, feed LESS THAN 12% protein and absolutely no "puppy chow" as it is too high in protein. Another breeder gave me "adult" dog food she said this litter had been chewing on that has 24% crude protein and 20% crude fat, pointing to the 24% and leaving me with the conclusion a high protein was important. So there is the contradiction. The "adult" food I've been feeding Cujo is Pedigree, which is about 27% crude protein. The puppy chow I've found all have a high percentage of protein. Should I be concerned about this? What would you feed such a pup? (I will call the vet tomorrow to set up her appointment and will talk with her about feeding; however, I doubt she knows much more than I do about feeding this particular breed. Still I will find out.) I'm also considering getting some "Dasuquin" and "Hylasport" to help deter possible joint problems; and I read somewhere that feeding Vitamin C helps too. (Cannot remember where I read this.)


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## BackfourtyMI.

The pedigree's you have posted above are the same pedigree's as my male puppy I am getting from Vikki Caldwell.
My female is from Cindy Kolb.


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## aart

As my daughter used to wail when we went to the pet store when she was little:
"I wanna pet something!!"


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## motdaugrnds

Great breeders! I do believe these two make a great attempt at keeping the breed pure as possible & oriented toward maintaining the LGD character they were born with. Congratulations on getting those pups Backfourty.


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## Rock

I tell everyone to stay at less than 30% protein to prevent knuckling over
Only ever had 1 problem with it, guess who? The dog food distributor, that had got a pup off me. Promptly the dog was starting to walk on it's toes, so we tell them how to fix it._ (you think they would have caught on from the feed issue:hair) _So they spend the couple hundred $$$ bucks at the vet, then do exactly what I had told em on both instances. Guess the free - $10 solution didn't cost enough to get the proper attention. 
Those are beautiful pups, yours and the little redhead.

PS: I inboxed you about feed.


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## TedH71

Beautiful pup! Pedigree is one of those less than stellar dog foods in terms of quality. Personally I feed High Energy Diamond but Diamond sells dog food marketed specifically for large breed pups. Go google and see what they have. High quality feed means less poop (they eat less because a little bit is all they need) and less skin issues, etc.


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## motdaugrnds

Thank you TedH71, I'm googling tonight!


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## motdaugrnds

Update:

Started feeding both Cujo and Valentina near each other so as to help them learn to negotiate. As you can see by picture, so far; so good. However, this morning I gave them each the bones of two hocks I cooked for dinner last night. I, of course, ask Cujo to sit and wait while I gave Valentina hers; then gave Cujo his. A moment later, I reached to take Valentina's away from her and she let me know (beyond a doubt) she didn't want me to take it. I grabbed her by the scruff of the neck and took the bone anyway; then I sat her down and held the bone out of her reach (while I maintained a hold on her) until she knew she wasn't getting it until *I decided she could have it*. Then I let her have it and let go of her neck. She started enjoying it again when I started to take it away again; and again she let me know that was not ok. Again, I grabbed her by the neck and took the bone anyway. This occurred 4 times until I was sure she was better understanding I was in charge of whether or not she got it. Then I let her keep it. (Valentine chewed the meat off that bone as though she had been doing it all her little life.)


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## motdaugrnds

Update:
I have now taken the wire off from the little shelf I'm building Valentina. She has been staying out all night for about 2 days now. I still check on her throughout the night and have found her wondering in and out the barn and sleeping on Cujo's bed on the back porch. It is apparent the goats are more tolerant of her as they no longer back away from her when she approaches them.

Yesterday, when David took her on the parameter walk, Valentina was on a leash; and, though there were times when I saw authority issues, it was minor; and for the most part, Valentina trotted along beside (or in back) of David throughout the entire walk. Then yesterday evening, I saw Valentina circling the house all by herself. The way she was doing it looked so strange that I watched for a few minutes. She would walk about 30 ft away from the house while the entire time looking down at the parameter fencing and at the fowl and goats down in the pastures. I've never seen a dog do this before. It was obvious she was circling and not just walking out to explore. (I'm hardly believing what I'm writing now, thinking I've got it all wrong and she was just exploring; however, this pup is not acting like other pups I've had.)

Caught she and Cujo playing today. David would throw Cujo's ball quite a distance and, of course, he would run as fast as he could to catch it and, when it bounced into the air, he would jump up to get it. Valentine would not follow, but would watch; and as soon as Cujo returned with the ball, Valentine would bounce around on her little feet wanting to play with Cujo. I actually saw Cujo playing with her as she attempted to grab at his leg (and at times even the ball). 

This morning as I was milking I saw Valentina walking inside the barn amongst the goats and, at times, would even nibble at what was in their feeding pans. The goats actually let her; but she didn't want any of it and would leave it to them. (It is a real good feeling to know this pup and the goats are beginning to accept each other's presence.)

Caught Valentina crawling thru the door in the garden fencing that I created for the geese/guineas/chickens. I chased her out 3 times. The 4th time I found her sitting "outside" the pen looking thru that door and just watching....wonder how long that would have lasted if I hadn't been thru with what I was doing in there......

David went to the mailbox a few days ago and Valentina followed him (over 300 ft one way), crawling under the gate. David took her back to inside the fencing. Next time she followed David to the gate, she sat just inside waiting for him to bring back the mail....not sure if she is learning or was just distracted by Cujo......


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## Rock

Sounds like your having fun, good deal with the bone and the growling. I also stick my hand in their food dish while they are eating, to seek out and nip any food aggregation issues in the butt early on. Lot easier to do when they are 30lbs vs 100lb+
She sounds smart, believe it or not dogs really like structure and routine.


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## motdaugrnds

Just had to share this....Valentina was only 8 weeks old last Monday. This picture was taken today. Notice how the goats are not frightened of her and how she is quite calm among them....really didn't expect bonding to occur so quickly.


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## BackfourtyMI.

So glad to see your pup & goats doing so well together so quickly. I hope it works that quick for mine too. My goats have never had a dog in with them though so not sure how fast they will all bond but we just got ours yesterday night.


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## aart

Calm Alpha Owner=Calm Dog=Calm Goats...well maybe something like that.
Enjoying your journey vicariously.


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## motdaugrnds

Yes this is quite a fun journey for me, albeit quite anxiety provoking at times (mostly due to my age and poor agility).

Oh yes, I've learned thru the years that, if I calm myself (and this has been a learned skill thru the years), whatever is around me can actually be mesmerized (mispelled) and calmed. 

Backfourty, you are in for a wonderful experience. So far I love this breed! It will not all be smooth though. Yesterday morning when I was separating the does for feeding/milking purposes, I caught Valentina trying to play with the kids. I had to stop what I was doing, grab her by the scruff of the neck and place her in my little (about 4x6) holding pen. She did not like to be in there at all. Listening to her one would have thought she was being mistreated terribly! Still I kept her in there until I was through with the feeding/milking chores. Then I let her out. This morning during the same time period, not once did she try to play with the kids. Did she learn that fast? I have no idea; however, judging from the past week's experiences with her, I would make a guess she DID!

Also, I went to feed the chickens as usual this morning. During the last few days Valentina has crawled under the fencing (where I made a door for the geese/guineas/chickens) and I have had to stop what I was doing to shoosh her out. This morning, she started to crawl thru, I made an "uh uh" with a growling type voice and she stopped, looked at me then backed back out. She literally sat there looking in as I completed that chore. Again, is she actually learning this quickly? 

Yesterday afternoon I saw Valentina in the pasture with the goats. She would jump to play at the kids but would not chase them when they bounced back. I saw the dams of those kids butt at Valentina and she definately noticed what she was doing was not ok with them. This lasted less than 5 minutes when she decided to do something else. (I am thinking much of what I'm seeing Valentina do is only puppy behavior; and she is actually learning what is acceptable and what is not and appears to be accepting those limitations. Wishful thinking???)

Probably the most valuable lesson I've learned is that this breed does not like to be caged! Valentina likes to make her own choices! Her choices appear to be in keeping with the natural propensities of her breed; and if I grab her quick enough when she's doing something I disapprove of, place her for short durations in a holding pen she cannot get out of, she gets the idea of what she CANNOT do without she and I coming face-to-face with a confrontation. (Sure glad I'm doing this while she is so little; and, Aart, you're sure right about how important it is to stay calm during these times!)


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## nobrabbit

I am avidly reading your progress with her as I am considering a LGD and have no experience with them. Please keep up the posts!


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## motdaugrnds

Update...
Valentina loves to run! Cujo was actually playing with her today by grabbing a stick and running off with it as she chased him. If he got too far ahead, he would circle back to tease her with that stick, then take off again with her chasing him.

I even caught Valentina scooting up on her belly to get her mouth on a bone Cujo was chewing on. He looked like he was going to nip her but didn't. She very slowly took that bone in her mouth and laid there while Cujo had the other end in his mouth. They both just laid there! I could only watch with concern this was going to turn into a full-out fight! But it didn't! Cujo let Valentina have that bone.....strange! She took it, went to Cujo's bed and enjoyed chewing on it. Cujo came over to get pets from me. (I'm not sure what is going on between these two. Wish I were a dog whisperer.)


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## Maura

You might want to consider giving the dogs only raw bones. Cooked bones can splinter and cause a great deal of trouble in the intestinal tract. You've also cooked out much of the goodness from the bone. A raw bone will have the complete nutritional content that your dog needs for growing strong bones. As for the kibble, you need to look at the ingredient list rather than the percentage protein. Many things have protein, but not in a form that is digestible. www.dogfoodanalysis.com lists hundreds of commercial foods and gives them stars. Good food is expensive, but hip dysplasia is tragic. I've never had a problem with Taste of the Wild, and it is the cheapest of the top 20 brands. With a puppy, I would add a little vitamin C (buffered crystal, 200 mg) a couple of times a week. This will help with bone development.


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## motdaugrnds

Maura, I've actually considered giving raw bones. What concerns me about it is that the raw bones would be "goat" and that is exactly what my dogs guard. I wouldn't want them getting the idea it is ok to eat one of my baby goats.

I've heard that about Vitamin C before. I do have "C vitamin with natural rose hips 1000 mg per tablet". It contains ascorbic acid, cellulose (plant origin), croscarmellose, hypromellose, rose hips (rosa canina)(fruit, stearic acid, magnesium stearate, & silicon dioxide. Can I grind this up and feed it to a 9 week old puppy without harming her? If so, about how much of this ground-up tablet should I give each of those 2 x week?


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## Maura

I feed my dogs raw chicken and they've never killed any of my chickens. I've fed them mutton and they've never killed any of my sheep. Shepherds around the world feed their herders and guardians mutton. The only dog that is going to kill your chickens or goats is one that is doing it for fun and is too rough, or one that understands the kill= eat part. Your dogs will not kill goats if you give them goat bones. Just make sure the bone is too big to be swallowed whole, and small enough to be carried around.

If it is a tablet then it has binders in it. I'm sure you can grind it up and tuck it into her food. I bought the crystalized version because it was recommended. It is meant to be out of a capsule and ingested the way I give it. Having been someone who has taken vitamin C for twenty five years because of allergies, I can tell you that you get what you pay for. I learned to not buy from a department or grocery store and spend the extra money at the health store. I had to take 3x as much C if I got it from Kmart. There really is a difference in quality (you get what you pay for). Do a search on dogs, hips, and C to get a good idea of how much you should be giving. I've been giving a 20 pound dog 200 mg of the crystalized buffered C and this is not too much (consulted with vet as this is a very sick dog).


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## motdaugrnds

Maura, that is very welcomed information. I, too, take a lot of Vitamin C, especially during late fall & winter months. I had never considered the quality before; and I will from now on only purchase it from the health food store.


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## BackfourtyMI.

Before we got our 2 new LGD's home a week ago I asked the breeders about feeding a raw diet to them since my 2 house dogs are on raw & she said she didn't think it was a good idea so I'll feed them dog food.


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## Maura

Backfourty, if your housedogs do well on raw, why would you not feed your working dogs the same? My thought is that the breeder probably doesn't really know anything about feeding raw.


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## motdaugrnds

I'm leaning toward feeding raw.....(for nutrition since I know my animals are healthy when slaughtered)

I've always heard feeding a dog "raw" meat would make them aggressive; well, my little Karakachan is already aggresive! I've seen her get ferocious at a rock and I've seen her "play" with growls/barks that would have caused most people to think she was going to tear up what she was playing with. I even caught her being "nosy" with a nesting hen, scared that hen off the nest & put her nose in that nest. I yelled at her and grabbed her by the scuff of the neck, which she did not like at all, growling to that let me know she didn't like being removed from something she wanted to do. This is already an aggressive dog! [In the latter incident, when I sat her back down on the ground, showed her the nest, scolded her with my usual "uh uh" (growl), she walked away. Will not know if she would have returned because the hen didn't; so now those eggs are in an incubator.] Will feeding her raw meat make her aggression uncontrollable? 

I'm learning from this pup; and what I'm learning is that she enjoys being independent; not that she enjoys being aggressive, though she doesn't hesitate to be should she deem it important. I believe, as her owner, it is up to me to teach her when it is ok and when it is not. (I've already learned teaching this breed is different than teaching my other dogs because of what of heard, i.e. that they don't like to be challenged; so I'm proceeding with patience, calm emotional actions and caution.) Still, I won't have any animal on my place who will not respect me as BOSS!

*Recent experiment*:
I actually gave both Cujo and Valentina a "raw" bone yesterday. (I have always taken the meat off front legs, saving it for ground meat, and saved those bones, along with all hocks and ribs for my dogs. I have cooked them in the past; but today decided to try giving them raw.) Cujo hesitated to even take the raw bone (with meat on it of course) and, when he did, he just held it. Valentina did not hesitate to take it and immediately started pulling meat off it.

I decided to use this as a training session for this Karakachan puppy. I reached to take the raw bone away and she growled and acted like she would bite if I took it. I grabbed her by the scuff of the neck and took the bone anyway feeling real thankful she was still small. Then I held the bone just out of her reach until she had calmed. I then offerred her the bone back but not letting her have it until I said "ok". Then she got it. Again, she laid right there and started enjoying it. This same process went on for several turns until she was able to let me take it without acting as though she would bite me. (This whole time Cujo was standing there watching us without ever trying to eat his bone....also a raw one which he had never had before.) 

I went inside for less than half an hour and, when I returned, Valentina had eaten the meat off and had been chewing off the softer part of the bone (front shoulder blade). Cujo still had not touched his and it was laying on the ground beside him. I went over and picked Cujo's up and gave it to him. He took it and, again, just held it. I went over to take Valentina's and the very same thing occurred as previously. Thus, the training session continued with my holding Valentina by the back of the neck while taking the bone several times until she was more calm about my taking it. Then, again, I left them.

Less than half an hour later I went back to see what was occurring and Valentina had apparently left her bone and was taking the raw meat off Cujo's bone while Cujo was actually chewing up Valentina's left-over bone. Again the lesson continued with Valentina; only this time, she seemed to understand I would give the bone back. She was more willing to let me take the bone, though still showing her dislike in my actions.

Now, should I continue this each and every time I give a raw bone to Valentina? Should I continue giving Cujo the raw bone to find out if he will actually start eating the meat off it? I really have no idea! However, I do not believe this pup has had raw meat before; so I cannot attribute her aggression to the meat. I am thinking her aggression is due to her independent nature which needs to be shown I'm in control. (I'm thinking I will do this again, only this time I'm going to do what Rock suggested, i.e. spit on the raw bone first!)

Oh let me share another situation I found occurring in the pasture: I stood on the front deck watching this! Valentina was running around, circling one of the grown does. (I got ready to yell at her and run to stop this when I saw something occur that confused me.) The doe continued to graze...periodically...as she watched Valentina. Valentina would complete her circle, then flop down onto the grass and roll over several times. Then she would get up, circle that same goat, flop down and roll again. (Not once did I hear Valentina make a growl or barking sound.) This occurred several times while that doe continued to show no signs of fear, just curiosity. After a bit, Valentina walked away. (I'm thinking Valentina has found a way to "play" with the goats that does not cause problems for her.)


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## aart

motdaugrnds said:


> ......Now, should I continue this each and every time I give a raw bone to Valentina? .....


I would say, yes! I would continue this every time you feed anything until you know that you can always and at any time take food away without reaction until she's full grown and even then still do it once in awhile. I would think that controlling the dogs food is the number one way to assert and maintain alpha status, which makes all other training easier in the long run. Control their feed and use treats only for direct training.

But then I've only had 3 pretty easy dogs (only one slightly challenged me) all acquired at over 6 months old, but control of food, theirs and mine, absolutely and consistently seemed to make a big difference. I've seen other folks let their dogs run over their alpha status by mishandling the food issues and those dogs are out of control and no one's really happy in those packs.


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## Rock

motdaugrnds said:


> I'm leaning toward feeding raw.....(for nutrition since I know my animals are healthy when slaughtered)
> 
> I've always heard feeding a dog "raw" meat would make them aggressive; well, my little Karakachan is already aggresive!
> 
> 
> Now, should I continue this each and every time I give a raw bone to Valentina? Should I continue giving Cujo the raw bone to find out if he will actually start eating the meat off it? I really have no idea! However, I do not believe this pup has had raw meat before; so I cannot attribute her aggression to the meat. I am thinking her aggression is due to her independent nature which needs to be shown I'm in control. (I'm thinking I will do this again, only this time I'm going to do what Rock suggested, i.e. spit on the raw bone first!)


 I,ve seen some of the best dogs in the world in show and comp. fed only raw. Raw meat will not make them aggressive, being allowed to act aggressive and having what ever they are acting out towards back off will enhance this action/attitude. (1*st stage of aggression training*)
I would continue the bone removal training, ideally you want to be able to stop the dog and take anything out of there mouth. I would build it around a command that you can use at a distance ( Out- drop it- cut - whatever word you like) you see them gnawing something out by the edge of the field, you can get them to stop until you see if it is ok for them to have. As for the correction you do what is working for you, I like to alpha roll them _(only because that is the way dogs do it, I find it faster& easier to think like a dog, than to try and make the dog think like a people.) _


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## motdaugrnds

Rock, will you go into detail as to how (the step-by-step process) you "...alpha roll..." (think like a dog) them?

I think I'm doing it ok; but seems to me when I grab this puppy by the neck, I am being aggressive and wouldn't this be teaching the dog by example? (This is still not clear enough for me to be comfortable that I'm training correctly.)

Not sure I should permit this, i.e. while playing with puppy and a toy, letting pup get hold of the toy, struggle slightly and, then when pup is starting to pull aggressively on toy, letting go to let pup know it can win.....? This is one way my son and I have worked with other dogs I've had; but not real sure this is ok with this Karakachan. Should we *ever* let this pup win?


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## Maura

_Don't alpha roll your dog._ Stop using the scruff of the neck in a few weeks as she will be too old for the effect you want. When you do grab the scruff, give a little shake and drop her. Don't hold her. Mother dog gives a little shake.

When you take away the bone, or anything else, use a cue word. "Tina, give." Use a normal tone of voice. Always use a normal tone, not a threatening tone. Trade her the bone for a little tidbit, then tell her "take" and let her take the bone. Play this game throughout the day, not just with the bone. It is a marvelous way to teach her to give up anything in her mouth and know that you are not playing keep-away. You are also teaching her to "take" something, which could come in handy.


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## Rock

motdaugrnds said:


> Rock, will you go into detail as to how (the step-by-step process) you "...alpha roll..." (think like a dog) them?
> 
> I think I'm doing it ok; but seems to me when I grab this puppy by the neck, I am being aggressive and wouldn't this be teaching the dog by example? (This is still not clear enough for me to be comfortable that I'm training correctly.)
> 
> Not sure I should permit this, i.e. while playing with puppy and a toy, letting pup get hold of the toy, struggle slightly and, then when pup is starting to pull aggressively on toy, letting go to let pup know it can win.....? This is one way my son and I have worked with other dogs I've had; but not real sure this is ok with this Karakachan. Should we *ever* let this pup win?


 Like I said, if what your doing is working for you keep at it.
I just roll the pup by putting my hand on the flank, slide my hand up and towards me, real quick and hold them, when they quit the struggle I take it the other direction, by letting them up & get under chin at my throat. Translate that into words: Look pup ya screwed up we cant have that type of action _(whatever it was)_ in this pack, it will be delt with instantly and not to your liking. Yes you are a part of this pack, it is my job to nurture protect and guide you into becoming a quality pack member. I accept you and trust you with my life and the future of the pack by allowing you access to my most vulnerable spot. No violence or aggression, just control, never mad or upset.
You can build some great skills by playing tug. Again I'm Alpha all toys belong to me, but I do let them win at times and applaud it. I also use their wanting to play to teach them _(in your case the bone)_ I would be using the same word for release of the toy as I would of the bone. I would say it 1 time, open their mouth get the toy. I never repeat myself over and over, or play the bride game, for me it is dogs name-command-action. 
The 1st few times I'll remove it and go back to playing. After they have 2-4 times released the object on command in the same day, _(may take a few days a week depending on the dog they are all different and have their own personality)_ I know they understand what that command means. I say their name and the command _(so they know I'm talking to them)_ if they fail to release we are done playing for that session. The more they respond correctly to the command, the more times I'll go thru the cycle and let them win. They gain strength confidence and attentive behavior:drillsgt: I get a dog that can be hanging by it's full bodyweight working a bite, that will just stop.
PS for all the naysayers, there is a guy that made millions training dogs, it was not you, and he uses the Alpha roll. they call him Dog whisper!


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## Pops2

Maura said:


> _Don't alpha roll your dog._ Stop using the scruff of the neck in a few weeks as she will be too old for the effect you want. When you do grab the scruff, give a little shake and drop her. Don't hold her. Mother dog gives a little shake.
> 
> When you take away the bone, or anything else, use a cue word. "Tina, give." Use a normal tone of voice. Always use a normal tone, not a threatening tone. Trade her the bone for a little tidbit, then tell her "take" and let her take the bone. Play this game throughout the day, not just with the bone. It is a marvelous way to teach her to give up anything in her mouth and know that you are not playing keep-away. You are also teaching her to "take" something, which could come in handy.


I agree, the alpha roll is something used by adult wolves on lower ranking wolves challenging their authority. It is also the last step before a full on attack intended to kill. It is also something they're taught as they grow. Unless its an adult raised by wolves, the dog won't understand alpha roll.
It's like choke slamming your kid. They might do something that merits it (what I'm not sure, but I am open to the possibility), but as a standard punishment/correction it'll do more harm than good.


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## motdaugrnds

Now this is getting rather confusing as you appear to be contradicting each other; and since you all are accustomed to training these types of dogs, I am beginning to think one way probably works as good as another....all depending on the character of the dog one is working with. Is this a fair assumption? 

Valentina is not playing when she lets me know that bone is something she wants to claim as hers. It does not look like I can just put my hand down and take away the bone without holding her in some way that will keep her from biting me. Thus, the scruff of the neck hold! I hold her only long enough to say, "Valentina, drop it!" take the bone out of her mouth, dropping it on the ground, then picking it up and holding it out of her reach. (She is not as aggressive when I do this with a toy and I've been able to get her to calm down and even sit in order to get the toy back.) With a raw bone, she is more aggressive and I have to use a calm voice with more forceful manerisms. 

During her play/train time, what seems to be more helpful is when I take her little face in both my hands and look her straight in the eyes, waiting for her to look away first. Then I praise her, let her go and give her a treat.

Maybe I'm making this harder than it needs to be. I'm just so unsure and yet I feel it is important this uncertainty not show up. Even if I'm wrong in what I do, I believe what I do needs to come across as right to Valentina....if that makes any sense.

It rained so much today that I was able to sit on the back porch awhile with both Cujo and Valentina near. Cujo wanted hugs while Valentina wanted to play/bite; however, during this time I was able to get Valentina to stop biting at my hand and only put her teeth on the toy. Maybe my ignorance is showing up again but I think this as quite an accomplishment.

Please know pros/cons about what I'm doing are all welcomed. I take constructive criticisms very well and learn from those with more experience in these matters than I. I do appreciate all the information each of you is giving me. (I sure do like the give/take interaction you mentioned Maura.)


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## Pops2

The alpha roll was "invented" in the 1970s by people that
1. Believed dogs=wolves
2. Observed the behavior in captive held wolf packs (however it is virtually nonexistent in observed wild wolf packs)

It was made popular by the monks of new skete in 76. It was recanted by them in 2002. It was later tied to causing aggression in a 2009 study.

Think of it like spanking a child with a belt. My mom used it all the time so it didn't matter. My dad OTH used it MAYBE 1/2 dozen times so each time he did I knew it was something important and he always explained the seriousness (sometimes life threatening) of my misbehavior. So when I compare it to a choke slam, I'm not stretching things. It is in the wolf world an act just short of killing. In dogs it is a step in the killing process and doesn't happen unless they are actually trying to kill the other dog. You are actually safer and less damaging to the dog mentally if you use the old 1960s rolled up newspaper. 
If you MUST use canine style corrections use a quick grab over the snout (this is actually how dogs & wolves both correct pups that get out of hand), but keep the fingers straight. If you curl the fingers you might get bit or nipped.
And the dog whisperer has been bitten several times by his own dogs.


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## wendle

Pops2 said:


> Think of it like spanking a child with a belt. My mom used it all the time so it didn't matter. My dad OTH used it MAYBE 1/2 dozen times so each time he did I knew it was something important and he always explained the seriousness (sometimes life threatening) of my misbehavior. So when I compare it to a choke slam, I'm not stretching things. It is in the wolf world an act just short of killing. In dogs it is a step in the killing process and doesn't happen unless they are actually trying to kill the other dog. You are actually safer and less damaging to the dog mentally if you use the old 1960s rolled up newspaper.
> If you MUST use canine style corrections use a quick grab over the snout (this is actually how dogs & wolves both correct pups that get out of hand), but keep the fingers straight. If you curl the fingers you might get bit or nipped.
> And the dog whisperer has been bitten several times by his own dogs.


Well said! I have heard the grab over the snout too, and have seen my own dogs do the same. I have never alpha rolled any of my dogs. I haven't even alpha rolled difficult dogs in for training . If you think about it the alpha dog cannot physically grab the legs and flip another dog over like a person can, they don't have hands. I think it's more like the alpha dog causes the other dog to submit , then it goes down on it's own. It's mostly attitude, then of course the willingness and ability to back it up.


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## motdaugrnds

POPS2, I actually used that over-the-snout hold last night when my pup was starting to play too rough with my hand instead of the toy. I instinctively knew to keep my fingers straight and it worked real well. I did not know about the alpha roll and the information you provided is very welcome.

Wendle, I agree about "attitude" as I've seen my dogs (one was an alpha I could never get bred, then lost her to a mocassin) try to stair each other down; and it was always the dominant one who won the battle, often without actually fighting. 


This morning I woke to the sound of little hooves bouncing off the wall of the barn. David rushed out and found Valentina misbehaving. He grabbed her by the back of the neck, shook her, then dropped her and walked out. As he exited, he saw Valentina peeping around the legs of a grown doe looking at him. By that time I was out the door to see what was going on and tend the animals. Valentina ignored me and walked around inside the barn amongst all the goats and not once tried to chase or threaten them. (I sure am thankful Valentina learns quickly and was so thankful David knew how to deal with the situation.)

I have caught Valentina pooping twice in a particular area of my barn; and since my does kid in that barn and I like to keep the entire barn as clean as I can, this is not acceptable. Both times I caught her pooping, I took her by the back of the neck, put her nose in the poop, then shook her saying "no" in rough voice. Then I sat her down and she watched as I picked up the poop and put it outside the barn. (Golly, never had to barn-break a pup/dog before; so have no idea if this is going to work or not.)


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## Rock

Pops2 said:


> The alpha roll was "invented" in the 1970s by people that
> 1. Believed dogs=wolves
> 2. Observed the behavior in captive held wolf packs (however it is virtually nonexistent in observed wild wolf packs)
> 
> It was made popular by the monks of new skete in 76. It was recanted by them in 2002. It was later tied to causing aggression in a 2009 study.
> 
> Think of it like spanking a child with a belt. My mom used it all the time so it didn't matter. My dad OTH used it MAYBE 1/2 dozen times so each time he did I knew it was something important and he always explained the seriousness (sometimes life threatening) of my misbehavior. So when I compare it to a choke slam, I'm not stretching things. It is in the wolf world an act just short of killing. In dogs it is a step in the killing process and doesn't happen unless they are actually trying to kill the other dog. You are actually safer and less damaging to the dog mentally if you use the old 1960s rolled up newspaper.
> If you MUST use canine style corrections use a quick grab over the snout (this is actually how dogs & wolves both correct pups that get out of hand), but keep the fingers straight. If you curl the fingers you might get bit or nipped.
> And the dog whisperer has been bitten several times by his own dogs.


That is the wikapedia version, anyone can edit that site to make it say what they like? (think I'm kidding read the history now right hereound: I invented it back in the 70's)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll

So don't believe everything ya heard on the yagoogly box, I'll change that back shortly
I could list National breed clubs that use Alpha roll and have it posted on their site. _(Start with the little guys, West highland Whites, and work your way up)_ Bottom line, the old line 3 dog trainers the only thing any 2 of them can agree upon, is the 3rd is doing it wrong.
I do what works for me, did not tell them they should do or change anything, I said "*As for the correction you do what is working for you,* I like to alpha roll them"and as you can plainly see told them *1mo-gen* *"Do what is working for you".
*Anyone that has been working with dogs for an extended period of time is appt to be bitten from trainers to vet to groomers to judges, goes with the turf. Dogs dont have thumbs to thumb jab ya in the neck, so they use what they got. I'm way more surprised by anyone in dogs full time for 10 years that has not been bitten.


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## JasoninMN

Show me one actual video of a "alpha roll" performed by another dog or a wolf and I will believe it exist. It's a result of misinterpreted canine behavior, where a subordinate animal rolls over and submits to a animal of higher dominance. In the 1940's animal behaviorist Rudolph Schenkel placed captive wolves from various packs into the same enclosure and basically watched them fight. Yeah when two wolves are fighting the stronger is going to knock the weaker off its feet eventually and beat the crap out of it. If its lucky the stronger one will quite attacking if it submits, in the wild wolves often kill one another. This was not an observation of pack structure or dominance but instead more like a organized wolf fight. That's a fact, the research document is out there to be read. The term alpha roll was coined from this "research." 

The dog whisper is good at marketing himself, he does not whisper anything. Most of his "saved" dogs are shocked robots but they don't show that on t.v.


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## Maura

Wolves do not alpha roll. What you will observe is younger wolves rolling over in a submissive gesture to higher ranking wolves. You see puppies do this with dogs, especially stranger dogs. As Jason points out, it is not normal social behavior between adult pack members. It was misunderstood. Using it on a dog can get you bitten. Just don't do it.

If you follow a training protocol, like I wrote, trading the bone for a treat, you will be farther ahead. What you are doing is expecting the puppy to "know" what you want. She doesn't know what you want and is acting like any normal aggressive breed. She may also think you are playing tug of war. Now is the right time to teach her to take a treat from a hand without taking the hand off. Hold onto the treat until she licks your hand, then give it to her. 

You have a wonderful but aggressive puppy, think in terms of "training" rather than "dominating".


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## motdaugrnds

I see no need for conflict between any of you. What I heard Rock say was for me to "...do what works..." (for me and my specific puppy). Every pup/dog is different as children are different.

I've seen dogs fight and when one turns submissive, it often rolls over on its back; so maybe that is what some may be referring to as an "alpha roll". I really don't care!!

I'm learning from each of you what you have each experienced and then I am making my own decision as to what to do with this pup. I am grateful for all experiences/information shared. You do not need to agree with each other for me to be thankful. I take what I hear, test it on my pup and make my own decision as to whether or not it works.

Valentina is coming along fine...knock on wood; so I must be doing some things correctly; and I appreciate very much what each one on this thread has shared with me. (One person's experiences being different from another's is what makes communications educational.)

Maura, I really appreciate your specifics about giving a pup a treat. Thank you.

..........ummm.......... anyone ever barn-break a puppy?


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## thaiblue12

I see issues coming for you if you continue on this path. 

First of all you are over analyzing her, yes she is an LGD breed and maybe thinking and such but first an foremost she is a canine carnivore *baby*. 

You need to teach her commands like " leave it" instead of constantly scruffing her. 

Rubbing her nose in poop teaches her what exactly?? Nothing, it teaches her that if she relives herself you are going to come along and put poop in her nose. Why, she has no clue. 
If you actually catch her pooping, pick her up and put her outside the barn, she poops you praise her. 
It seems from your posts that there is a lot of negative reinforcement and you don't seem to post about positive. You also cannot correct something unless you catch her in the actual act, she does not know why half an hour ago she pooped, or ate the hose and now you are going to yell at her and scruff her what you are angry about. 

Do not alpha roll her, first it doesn't work, second you know nothing about it and it will create more problems for you. 
Stop the massive amounts of scruffing. Obedience train her, teach her to come, leave it, sit, etc like a regular dog, she is still a dog even if she is an LGD with a job. She needs to mind you not fear you. 

If I caught my young LGD messing with chickens they got corrected. If I found a dead chicken then I did not correct them, I put the chicken in the middle of the yard and each time they showed interest they were firmly told to " leave it!!" With training they grew out of it. It was during 4 to 6 months old I had issues with them and adolecent chickens. 

My boys eat raw plus kibble, the eat raw chicken legs, thighs, turkey legs and etc, this does not make them associate it with my poultry and they do not eat them. I do not feed just bones with meat on them because there is not enough on there to support their weight of 120-150 lbs. 

She is not going to be perfect again she is a baby, but she needs positive feedback, training and handling. Yes she needs correction but if that is the bulk of her training she is not going to turn out to be the dog you want. You need to relax, play with her sometimes, brush her, pet her, handle her feet so she allows nail clipping, train her to walk on a leash so when she needs to go to the vet there is not an alligator on the other end of the leash.


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## Rock

JasoninMN said:


> Show me one actual video of a "alpha roll" performed by another dog or a wolf and I will believe it exist. It's a result of misinterpreted canine behavior, where a subordinate animal rolls over and submits to a animal of higher dominance. In the 1940's animal behaviorist Rudolph Schenkel placed captive wolves from various packs into the same enclosure and basically watched them fight. Yeah when two wolves are fighting the stronger is going to knock the weaker off its feet eventually and beat the crap out of it. If its lucky the stronger one will quite attacking if it submits, in the wild wolves often kill one another. This was not an observation of pack structure or dominance but instead more like a organized wolf fight. That's a fact, the research document is out there to be read. The term alpha roll was coined from this "research."
> 
> The dog whisper is good at marketing himself, he does not whisper anything. Most of his "saved" dogs are shocked robots but they don't show that on t.v.


Okay here is 1, and we can call it submissive roll, the 2 have to work together or aggressive/submissive or it would be a bloodbath

[ame]http://youtu.be/osR1_LzZjdQ[/ame]


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## JasoninMN

My point exactly, the dog dropped before the other even touched it, misinterpreted canine behavior. Thanks for proving my point.


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## Rock

JasoninMN said:


> My point exactly, the dog dropped before the other even touched it, misinterpreted canine behavior. Thanks for proving my point.


Well you can see it way better than I can, to dark for me to see if they made contact or not.
I see a dog putting another one on the ground, the one being put done gave way. Thus eliminating confrontation.
Now I'm going to undo that think in Wikapedia


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## motdaugrnds

Seems to prove my thinking, i.e. that a submissive dog will turn over itself looking as though the dominant had given it an alpha roll.


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## motdaugrnds

Thaiblue12, thank you very much. You're right. I have a tendancy to over analyze things. I actually do other things besides scruffing her, i.e. my "uh uh" in a rough voice is working well and does mean "stop what you're doing". She appears to be understanding this.

ROFL you may be right about the poop. I was told years ago that is how you house-break a pup; so was simply doing it out of habit...you know, i.e. because mother did it! I agree that catching her in the act is when to train her; and this is the only time I actually correct any of my animals.

Well, I have posted some corrections; but if you re-read some of my posts I believe you will find many positive comments about her behavior too. I guess it does appear there is a massive amount of scruffing; however, if I were to put a percentage on it relative to how many times she gets praise, the percentage would actually be quite low. Yes, I'm teaching her some obedience...though very little at this time. She will get more as her attention span can handle it. (I sure like your way of training with chickens. So far my "uh uh" is working; but she is still a baby. A little later I may need to use a technique like yours. Thanks for telling me about it.) No need to be concerned that she is not getting positives. She definately is as I actually tend to lean more heavily on the positive interactions. I really enjoy grooming her, playing with her feet, rubbing her belly and just hugging her. David already has her working well on a leash as he circles the parameter of our 6 acres each day. 

Yes I'm heading into town tomorrow to stock up on animal feed and will be picking up some high quality dry dog food for her and Cujo. I will also continue feeding them the raw meats, though still not sure if Cujo will eat it.


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## motdaugrnds

Update ....

Took Valentina to see the vet today. He did a complete physical, a complete blood workup, did a fecal sample (found no worms at all) & gave her a 5-way shot (next shot due in few weeks). Vet said she was a very healthy pup! Of course, all there ooed and aahed at seeing such a breed! 

Since we try to take care of all our needs on one trip, David picked up his meds and I got my eyes examined. We also stopped by Tractor Supply and Wal-Marts. This meant a very, very long time for a 10 wk old puppy to be on a leash in a van (from 11 am to 8 pm). She was excellent! (David, of course, had been training her to the leash for some time now; so I have no doubt that was a tremendous help. However, her ability to recognize her name, stop when she heard "uh uh" and enjoy being praised contributed to her calm behavior throughout this time.)

She was walked several times (one of us would stay with her while the other did what needed to be done, alternating at times) and peed twice (once on the grass outside my opthamologist's office and once inside Tractor Supply while people were gathered around her oooing and aahing her).

All in all a very well behaved little puppy and quite glad to see Cujo upon our return. (As David and I were bringing in the groceries, I saw Valentina step into the house. I said "You get out of there!". She looked at me, turned around and came right back out, getting praise while her tail wagged.  I sure am enjoying the intelligence of this pup.


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## Maura

The more she gets out into the world, the more confident she will be and the easier to handle over all. I love to see puppies out and about. If you know any people who don't look like you (different race, smell different due to different food, beards, short, tall, etc) be sure and have her visit them. I haven't liked some of what you've done, but you seem to be considering the posts to you, that is quite a lot. I'd forgotten about toenails. You may never need to clip them, but it doesn't hurt to handle the feet and pretend to clip them. I'm glad you are enjoying your puppy.


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## Maura

Maybe it's time to start a new thread? The Saga of Valentina?


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## kareninaustria

Karen emerges from Lurkdom to comment on the alpha role --------!

I once watched my very dominant husky mix ***** getting alpha-rolled by a bullmastiff whom she would not leave in peace (it was a problem since they were together alot at a stable where I worked, and she was always the instigator). They clashed and fought for a few ferocious seconds; I stopped the bullmastiff's owner from stepping in because my dog really needed to be taken down a few notches and I knew the other dog wouldn't take it too far. He pinned her upside down underneath him, between all four of his feet(he was standing), with his mouth around her throat. Neither moved for a good five seconds; the only sound was my dog's little wimpers of submission. Then he released her throat and raised his head slightly, and remained completely still as she struggled her way out from under him. 

Both dogs were completely unharmed. My dog never challenged the bullmastiff's authority ever again - all he had to do was look sideways at her and she would slink away. Life at work was much easier!

So for whatever it's worth, the alpha-roll is at least not unheard of among dogs......


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## motdaugrnds

Karen!!! Love your testimony!!!

I've seen such actions between dogs too, just never before knew what to call it.


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## Rock

kareninaustria said:


> Karen emerges from Lurkdom to comment on the alpha role --------!
> 
> I once watched my very dominant husky mix ***** getting alpha-rolled by a bullmastiff whom she would not leave in peace (it was a problem since they were together alot at a stable where I worked, and she was always the instigator). They clashed and fought for a few ferocious seconds; I stopped the bullmastiff's owner from stepping in because my dog really needed to be taken down a few notches and I knew the other dog wouldn't take it too far. He pinned her upside down underneath him, between all four of his feet(he was standing), with his mouth around her throat. Neither moved for a good five seconds; the only sound was my dog's little wimpers of submission. Then he released her throat and raised his head slightly, and remained completely still as she struggled her way out from under him.
> 
> Both dogs were completely unharmed. My dog never challenged the bullmastiff's authority ever again - all he had to do was look sideways at her and she would slink away. Life at work was much easier!
> 
> So for whatever it's worth, the alpha-roll is at least not unheard of among dogs......


 I'm sorry Karen, but we have changed the name of it to submission roll so people can sleep better at night. The roll whatever you call it in action. She is the Alpha ***** and he outweighs her by +- 30lbs.


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## JasoninMN

The point that seems to be missed is that the "alpha roll" is forcing your dog onto its back, the key point is the force being used and the fact its often used as a punishment. The "submissive roll" is a dog rolling over on its own, a dog taking a submissive posture to maintain stability in the pack structure. It's not just a name change its two different behaviors. Look at your own picture the one dog is already in a submissive stance. It's not being rolled its taking submissive posture in play. Most dominance and pack ranking is established through play with dog, not through force such as these two dogs are doing. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=x1e5jQYHKgU

Karen can call that an alpha roll but really what it was was a test of dominance and when the husky got bulldozed by the mastiff it decided it better submit real quick or get killed. Much like these puppies. Is this what your trying to refer to as a alpha roll?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=x1e5jQYHKgU


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## kareninaustria

From what I could see in the encounter between my husky and the mastiff, he pretty much PUT her on her back and held her down using his superior size and strength; of course somewhere in that process she must have submitted and stopped resisting but when the fight started she definitely had every intention to end up the victor! It was the only time in her entire life that I saw her be compelled to submit to another dog.
So, I don't really know what term should apply; all I know is she expected to set him straight about who was boss and got her clock thoroughly cleaned instead (and experienced a major attitude adjustment in the process)!


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## MollysMom

This breed is totally new to me, they sure are cute as puppies. How large do they get?


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## Rock

JasoninMN said:


> The point that seems to be missed is that the "alpha roll" is forcing your dog onto its back, the key point is the force being used and the fact its often used as a punishment. The "submissive roll" is a dog rolling over on its own, a dog taking a submissive posture to maintain stability in the pack structure. It's not just a name change its two different behaviors. Look at your own picture the one dog is already in a submissive stance. It's not being rolled its taking submissive posture in play. Most dominance and pack ranking is established through play with dog, not through force such as these two dogs are doing.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=x1e5jQYHKgU


I said submission roll, (not submissive) aint no play going on here. He tripped her trigger and is trying to get away, neither of them look very playful to me. Saw it again today Adult female pin a pup and hold it on its back mouth around it's neck, when pup stopped the struggle, she let it up.
_(Great video, proves my point even up to the lift the head show the throat, not so pronounced in pups as in a seasoned pack alpha, but the subtle signals are there none the less) _


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## wendle

I'm wondering in the "alpha roll" if the person applying it needs to also bite the throat and growl while turning the dog over. I'd like to see a video of that. Or does the dog simply give up once he is on his back?


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## motdaugrnds

ROFL Wendle, you'll never see me putting my face that close to a growling dog. (Even a puppy like mine could cause some real damage. Holding Valentina's head between my two hands, looking right into her "glaring" eyes and growling...my growling...was as far as I'm taking the alpha "roll"! And that worked wonders the one time I "instinctively" did it!) ROFL

Gave Valentina and Cujo another raw bone (with meat) today. As usual I had Cujo sit for his; yet still he just held it ... not eating it. I had Valentina "sit" before I let her have hers...oh yes, this puppy did "sit".  Then when I gave her the raw bone, I continued to hold it, not really letting her have total control over it. She didn't mind until I started to hold the other end of it, then she growled a little, but not enough to concern me. So I went ahead and took hold of the other end. At that time I had both my hands on her bone holding it while she chewed on it. At times she would look up at me and I could praise her as I took the bone and gave it back, still holding it. I only did this a short time then let her take total control over it. She laid down right there where she was and enjoyed it. (I am thinking my holding the raw meat let her know I was in control even though she was the one eating the meat...*Ideas about this would be appreciated*.)


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## Allen15

I did put my face that close to a growling dog and do just that, but it was a reaction to meeting my younger sister's rescued 85 lb German shepherd who was both abused, and extremely aggressive toward large males.

I stopped by to visit her shortly after she moved into her own apartment (that she really couldn't afford as a starving college student, & wasn't supposed to have dogs at that complex either), and she'd responded to an ad for a dog that needed a home or would be put down because it was too aggressive. I met her at the front door, where she was trying to block the dog behind her who was snarling and growling at me, while she's trying to calm the dog down by voice command, and at the same time warn me off.

I said I can take care of this just fine, pushed her aside, and lunged at the dog, who jumped back, and ran to the kitchen. I gave chase, and cornered her at the fridge, and turned her over and bit her. Not enough to draw blood, but enough to let her know I was there, & wouldn't accept her aggression without answer. I then let her up, put a leash on her and took her for a walk. She was my friend for life thereafter, even though she would still attack most others without warning, if not constrained.

Unfortunately, there was no one recording the event, and I sure as heck had my hands full for the first part trying to keep ahead of her reflexes and teeth, but I don't regret it. It sure scared my little sister pretty bad at first, though, but after it was done, she just said I must be crazier than her dog was...

She was one of the most dangerous dogs I've ever encountered, because she wouldn't give any audible warning if there wasn't any barrier to her target, she'd just attack, and only bark or growl if she couldn't reach her target. My sister eventually got evicted from the complex after the maintenance man met the dog in an attempt to change her furnace filter, & she had to move back in with the parents. She move out a few years after, and left the dog with them.

My dad kept it for a few more years, and then needed to find another home for it, so we started looking, while I paid for boarding it (he had to leave the state, and there was no one available to watch the dog). This was in a fairly high-crime neighborhood in St. Louis, and although all of his neighbors were terrified of that dog, they didn't want it but they didn't want him to get rid of it, 'cause the crime rate in that block dropped sharply while he had it. 

We ended up taking her to a small town vet that Dad grew up with, and after the vet claimed our description of her behavior must be an exaggeration, we left the dog with him for a bit, and he told us he'd never seen a dog trying to chew through a chain link fence to get at someone before - until his daughter walked past that kennel... After that, he found a junk yard owner who was looking for a guard dog due to vandalism problems, & as far as we know, it was a perfect match


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## motdaugrnds

Allen, I totally agree with your sister's evaluation of your being crazier than that dog! You must be quite confident in your strength and agility too!


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## wendle

Crazy is right. The shepherd is an extreme and dangerous case. If it takes all that to do the alpha roll properly, then why bother. A person can take charge without all that. Motdaugrnds, personally I do not accept growling at me. I would have immediately taken the bone and gotten seriously on that dog's case. It might mean a smack on the nose, I know this will offend some pp people, but I feel it isn't a whole lot different than another dog snapping at the offender. It is especially important to know your place with a large dog who can be dangerous.


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## Rock

wendle said:


> I'm wondering in the "alpha roll" if the person applying it needs to also bite the throat and growl while turning the dog over. I'd like to see a video of that. Or does the dog simply give up once he is on his back?


When ya get in that spot ya do what is needed. Years ago my buddies almost 80lb pitbull named Crunch. Made a first attempt charge at me, what am I gonna do I was 100lbs heavier then (about 355lbs) no way I could get away. 
I snatched him up and head butted him as hard as I could, then dropped him. After that we became fast friends and no matter where I was at their house he wanted to hang out with me. No video's (and I have been known to bite a dog)


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## JasoninMN

Rock said:


> I said submission roll, (not submissive) aint no play going on here. He tripped her trigger and is trying to get away, neither of them look very playful to me. Saw it again today Adult female pin a pup and hold it on its back mouth around it's neck, when pup stopped the struggle, she let it up.
> _(Great video, proves my point even up to the lift the head show the throat, not so pronounced in pups as in a seasoned pack alpha, but the subtle signals are there none the less) _


I guess we view dog behavior quite differently. The pups not showing the "alpha" its throat to show its vulnerability that would be romanticized dog behavior from a fictional dog book, Jack London's Call of the Wild and Whitefang etc. It cracks me up that people actually think dogs are aware of their anatomy.


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## Maura

I think the "showing of throat" is really an attempt to look away from the other dog as well as get the head as low as possible, on the ground.

I prefer to use training rather than threats. A little training goes a long way. I find long line work to be invaluable. After that, NILIF. Both of these involve improving the dog's status (up or down) and teaching good behavior.


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## BackfourtyMI.

MollysMom said:


> This breed is totally new to me, they sure are cute as puppies. How large do they get?


I think I remember reading between 110 or so up to 130 or 140 pounds depending on male or female I believe.


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## Allen15

It probably doesn't require all that, & FWIW, at that time, I'd never heard of anything called an alpha roll. I just reacted in a manner that I thought would effectively communicate to the dog, and I guess I hit it out of the park with that one. She was NEVER aggressive with me thereafter, and she would stop & listen to me even if she was in the midst of attacking someone else, which came in handy if I was around at the right time.

A smack on the nose wouldn't have reached her, and doing so would make it ill-advised to turn your back on her afterwards, because she really was dangerous.

The bits of the back-story that I was able to gather are that she was purchased from a breeder by a small family where the husband would occasionally beat the dog, believing it would make her meaner, 'cause he wanted a mean dog.... She did turn mean, and was also very protective of their child (which is usually good), but in her case, a neighbor's dog walked past, and she just killed it. No warning or hesitation, and then tried to attack the neighbor.

They returned it to the breeder with the excuse that it was "too mean", and the breeder checked out the dog, and realized that they'd never be able to sell this dog to anyone else, so they placed an ad to give it away (out of their area), because they were under pressure to put her down, & they didn't really want to. My (bleeding-heart-liberal-...) sister who couldn't hardly afford to feed herself, saw this ad, felt she had to 'save' this animal from certain death, and answered the ad. (My sister has since grown up, and become a responsible adult & we're on good terms  )

It was an AKC registered purebred, and a beautiful animal, but she changed the name, & destroyed the papers, in the hopes that no one would ever connect that dog with previous behavior or incidents.

Everything did turn out OK in the end though.



wendle said:


> Crazy is right. The shepherd is an extreme and dangerous case. If it takes all that to do the alpha roll properly, then why bother. A person can take charge without all that. Motdaugrnds, personally I do not accept growling at me. I would have immediately taken the bone and gotten seriously on that dog's case. It might mean a smack on the nose, I know this will offend some pp people, but I feel it isn't a whole lot different than another dog snapping at the offender. It is especially important to know your place with a large dog who can be dangerous.


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## motdaugrnds

Well, I'm certainly learning a lot from this little girl. She's sorta like a 2 yr old (human) right now. She is mostly acting out instinctively and exploring the world around her with enthusiasm. She is needing to be protected mor than she is needing correction right now...and no, this does not mean she does not get corrected at times.

It is so obvious she is learning words and enjoying her explorations. I can hand-feed her and she is careful not to bite my fingers. I can pet her and she is leaning in for more pets instead of trying to play with my hand, although she still does at times. I can walk and she is careful not to get too close to my feet. I can call her name and she comes to me. David can now walk her around the parameter of our place without her pulling a temper tantrum wanting off the leash. I can go thru a gate and she sits (with Cujo) waiting for me to go thru first then give permission for them to come through. She is eating well, knows where the clean water is, walks (even plays) among the goats and fowl without problems. I'm quite pleased with this little puppy.

Today I saw Cujo take Valentina's favorite toy (not the one I paid $5 for; but one of my old socks with a knot tied in it), tease her with it and then run. She chased him and, if she stopped, Cujo would return to tease her with that sock again. (This was really something for Cujo because his favorite toy is a rubber ball that is too large for Valentina to enjoy.

One thing that is concerning me somewhat is the time she spends with Cujo. I would prefer she spent more time with the goats; however, when I stop and realize how young she is, my concern dissipates somewhat. I'm thinking her "baby" months should focus more on her learning it is ok to think for herself and feeling safe to explore. As she grows, I suspect the natural characteristics of her breed will start showing up. Thus, her bonding to Cujo and to myself is ok at this young age. Cujo will put her in her place should she get too rough (with those little sharp teeth) and so will I; and I think that is a very important thing for her to know.

Also, I'm heavier on a "positive" approach to training as I'ld much prefer she learn what is ok for her to do so she can enjoy life on our homestead more. At this age, she really isn't needing a lot of negatives. (Did catch her in the orchard today without permission; so took her back out the way she got in, then opened the door and had her wait a bit before I gave her permission to enter.)

I do have another concern. Cujo has never left our homestead nor even tried to jump our parameter fencing, even when he's chasing squirrels. However, when I let him in the orchard/garden area, he leaps over the 3-1/2 ft divider fence without problems. I really don't want Valentina to learn to do that!


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## BackfourtyMI.

So does Cujo & Valentina stay with your goats?


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## motdaugrnds

All animals/fowl on this place pretty much stay together. The goats will lay around in the back or front yard with both Cujo and Valentina amongst them. The goats even come up onto the back porch with both dogs around. 

Valentina will not venture...as yet...over 100-200 feet from the house by herself; however, she will walk with David and play with Cujo at distances farther than that. (I think the older she gets, the farther she will go; I just hope she will know by then to stop at the parameter fencing she and David have been walking.)

Valentina is NOT sleeping in the barn, though she wonders in and out of it. I really don't think this is a bad thing at this time because of her size/age.

If some predator shows up at our fencing (or walks down the road in front of our property) Cujo will bark and charge. When he does this, all the goats look up and, from wherever they are in the pasture, will head toward the barn. Valentina will bark once, then sit and watch it all greeting the goats as they get closer. (Valentina is usually in the yard at such times.)

Valentina has not stayed with the goats as much as I've wanted her to; and as mentioned above, this does concern me. However, she is still just a baby and her feeling safe to explore and learn is a priority to me. (Maybe I'm wrong about this being a priority with an LGD; but my place is not so large that she would need to stay with the goats out in the pasture in order to protect them, this being because she can be in our front and/or back yard and still see the goats/fowl.)


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## Rock

JasoninMN said:


> I guess we view dog behavior quite differently. The pups not showing the "alpha" its throat to show its vulnerability that would be romanticized dog behavior from a fictional dog book, Jack London's Call of the Wild and Whitefang etc. It cracks me up that people actually think dogs are aware of their anatomy.


Yep we do view dog behavior differently, my view works very well for me. Brought home a few new working titles from this weekends events:thumb:
I hope yours works as well for you:cowboy:.


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## CathyGo

An alpha does not harass lower ranking pack members while they eat. I understand your concerns but harassing her while she's eating is not the way to deal with it.

Stand outside of the radius where the dog growls. Call her and show her a tasty treat. Let her come and get the treat. Gradually get closer until you can call her name, touch her food, and then toss a treat into the dish. Then briefly lift the dish before setting it back down and adding a treat. Then start all over with a bone. It's a higher value to the the dog so you want to return to it voluntarily leaving the food. Maybe use a less desirable bone the first few times. By the time you get to actually handling her food there will be enough of a positive association that the dog doesn't hold a grudge. It knows that good things happen when you handle it's food so why get mad over it?

I've rehabbed really food aggressive dogs this way. No fighting the dog or the dog getting anxious. You're just changing it's mind about you handling it's food. It learns that you aren't a threat.


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## motdaugrnds

Great information. Thanks CathyGo.


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## wendle

CathyGo said:


> Stand outside of the radius where the dog growls.
> 
> .


This is the same thing a lower ranking dog would do to show respect to the alpha.


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## Rock

wendle said:


> This is the same thing a lower ranking dog would do to show respect to the alpha.


 Bingo, we have a bingo!


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## JasoninMN

Rock said:


> Yep we do view dog behavior differently, my view works very well for me. Brought home a few new working titles from this weekends events:thumb:
> I hope yours works as well for you:cowboy:.


Not sure how working titles, guessing weight pulling, have anything to do with pack behavior/dog behavior but congrats on your wins. I've titled a few dogs myself with out ever having to get physical with them. I guess whatever works keep doing it. I just prefer to not train with intimidation.


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## motdaugrnds

ummmm, I must have given the wrong impression. I can actually do anything I want with Valentina's "dry" dog food. 

Now, if I don't let go of the "raw" food, I can do whatever I want with it. Since she only gets raw food once a week, this is a rather slow process; however, holding it while she takes a few bites, then removing it, spitting on it and returning it to her seems to be working well...now if you're going to gross out over this spitting, you can blame Rock ..... ROFL (Just kidding, got the idea from Rock but the action is mine!)


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## CathyGo

wendle said:


> This is the same thing a lower ranking dog would do to show respect to the alpha.


True but I don't put as much emphasis on who's "alpha" as I used to do. I'm forming a positive association with me touching their food. I want a dog who is practically begging me to come mess with their food rather than a grudging acceptance because they know I'll put my boot to their butt. It more easily translates to children or less assertive adults handling their food. 

I use NILIF and obedience training to keep the pack order solid. I prefer not to have a fight with a dog unless there's no other option. Desensitization gets you further than just telling a dog not to do something. You can punish a dog out of reacting to something but in that dogs mind it's still a very bad thing. I'd rather do the extra work to change how a dog thinks about something than just continue to punish it for reacting.


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## wendle

So I'm wondering how the nilf training works when the 120 lb lgd pup has a squawking chicken in his mouth. Do you wait outside of the growling zone waving a hot dog?


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## Maura

Actually Wendle, if the dog likes hot dogs, that might work. But, it is not NILIF. Your dog never should have had that much freedom and should have had more training before you allowed him that close to a chicken.

The bone thing doesn't involve every day kibble, it is a special treat. I might use it to trade with: dog has something in her mouth. I put my hand under her chin while letting her sniff the bone. I say "give". She drops the item in her mouth. I praise, (pause) then give her the bone. Another time, I call her, "Tina, come", she bounds over to me. I use the bone to lure her in front of me and into a sit. Praise, hand her the one. Using the bone as a treat puts you in the alpha position because you control the resources. You make her earn the bone (this would be NILIF) all the while training her to "give", and "come".


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## motdaugrnds

ROFL That is an excellent question Wendle; however, CathyGo I really like what you said about emphasizing the positive. 

As for using a bone to train, I like that idea too except I don't want Valentina expecting anything raw everytime she does something I want her to do; and I sure cannot put my hand under her chin to tell her to drop a piece of raw meat/bone she already has. (So far I'm liking the way this pup is learning and, despite my ignorance, what I'm doing is working so far.)

Found this occurring yesterday and thought I'ld share as it is a real nice indication Valentina is getting along well with the goats even while still a puppy hanging out most of the time with Cujo. (That black one is a 6 yr old buck; the red roan is a 3 yr old doe.) It was a hot day and it is always cool under that first step to the barn loft. (After finding them there, I raised up the other end too; so now a breeze can blow right through as it is, also, screened.)


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## Maura

She isn't going to expect something raw everytime you are training her to "give", just something. I was just saying that you can use the bone in your training. Nine times she gives up toy for a piece of kibble or cracker, the tenth time you happen to have the bone and she gets a JACKPOT! treat. She earns the treat, whether it is a toy or bone by giving up something, by sitting, by whatever. Once she understands the give game, you can use that training to take away the bone and give it back. Make sense?


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## CathyGo

wendle said:


> So I'm wondering how the nilf training works when the 120 lb lgd pup has a squawking chicken in his mouth. Do you wait outside of the growling zone waving a hot dog?


NILIF is the overall management of the dog. In a specific and UNANTICIPATED situation you may have to resort to cruder tactics. Obedience training also comes into play here. "Drop it" is very useful and every dog should know it. 

When my dog gets something he shouldn't I call my dog over and trade him. He knows I trade up from past experience so even if I don't have food with me he'll willingly give it up. If that fails I use a slip lead and lift the dog up till it realizes it can either choose to keep the chicken or it can choose to breathe. Most dogs choose to breathe.  A 120 lb dog would be a bit difficult to lift. A firm smack to the nose might be in order there.

The important part is that I then plan how to teach my dog that chickens are not squeaky toys. I don't just correct him when I catch him fooling with the chickens. I also limit his freedom to go after chickens until he's got the message. 

Smacking the dog or forcibly dominating it shouldn't be your first choice.


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks for clarifying Maura. I do like the give/take method of training. I tried it out today as I walked thru my orchard. I let Valentina in there with me and she enjoyed exploring the new area. Several times I would call her and, when she trotted over with tail wagging, I gave her a little piece of cheese. Once she found a guinea egg (They will lay under my comfrey quite often.) and I was able to exchange it for a piece of cheese. .................. So far; so good!

Cathy I don't like the choke nor the smack. I wouldn't use either of those with any animal, certainly not with a Karakachan. (My goats have great memories and I suspect this pup does too. I sure wouldn't want any of my animals remembering such a negative act came from me.)


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## CathyGo

They are last resorts to save an animals life. I've never had to do either with my current dog. If you have to use it more than once in a dogs lifetime something is wrong.

The choking isn't done violently. The handler should be pretty impersonal about it. The dog is just lifted until they decide that they'd like to breathe more than continue to hold onto that object. I only use it for objects like rat poison blocks and I only mentioned a smack to the nose as the scenario was that the dog weighed 120 lb. 

I'm glad to see that you don't want to use negative methods as some on this board seem to prefer them.


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## wendle

There are many dogs that value attacking livestock over treats. It is self rewarding. That said, I've never had to resort to the choke down method to stop it. I have had to hold a dog away from me by the collar though to keep from getting bit while protecting someone's sheep from the dog. The dog had zero respect for people and livestock. Sadly the owner eventually resorted to shocking the dog, then gave up on him. I blame her for not developing a good relationship with the dog as a pup.


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## motdaugrnds

Ok I do understand "last resort" situations; and I suspect I, myself, would do most anything to protect myself, my dog and whatever is being hurt. (I must add here that I tend to blame the dog's owner for such a need rather than to blame the dog.)

I totally agree good training from puppy hood on up (and even continuing) is a must for quality work in any type guard dog. That is why I get my dogs as early as possible, make positive interactions a priority and demand a mutual respect for all involved. I know this "sounds" complicated; but it really isn't.

Little Valentina does have the propensity to be assertive; and this "could" lead to aggression if not handled well. My efforts are to encourage her assertiveness while teaching her to choose "well" when to be aggressive; and these latter opportunities will become more evident with age.


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## Maura

I would never hang a dog. I have had the experience of a Boston terrier latching onto a sheep, as well as my border collie. This is what their ancestors were bred for and they do not let go. I put my finger over the dogs nostrils to block the air (with wool or fur making mouth breathing unsustainable. Obviously, my Bostons do not get adopted by people with livestock, they go to the city. I'm sure you could bond a puppy with your animals.

Mot you are having too much fun with this puppy.


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## motdaugrnds

ROFL Maura I totally agree that I'm having a lot of fun with Valentina; but "too much"? Not at all! Her willingness to do what I want is helping to keep her behaving appropriately among the goats and chickens; and since she will eventually be guarding the entire homestead (3 acres in front; 3 acres in back) I want her to know it is a fun place to live. I don't see how she cannot appropriately bond with the goats, too, because during the heat of the day, she is out in the shady spots with them. 

You should have seen her this morning. As usual I step out the back door and here both dogs come running for their morning treat. Cujo gets a large teeth-cleaning bone and Valentina gets a large soft vitamin/mineral supplement (about the size of a round quarter). Then after all my milking and other morning chores are done I return to the back porch for Valentina's grooming time. (One day I'll put this on video as it is a wonderful experience for both of us.)

Valentina's grooming consists of my having her "sit" then "lay down" then "roll over" then "be still". Oh yes this pup is doing all of that (between little playful bites). During this time I comb her and search for ticks. She is so patient and obviously enjoys this special time. I can touch her all over, pull her toes apart, hole her mouth open, stroke her belly and literally go over her entire body. (Cujo is jealous but is given his dog food during this time; so that helps keep him from sticking his nose into what I'm doing with Valentina.) After this grooming event, Valentina is given her dry dog food, which right now is a mixture of puppy chow and 2 kinds of grain-free adult chow. 

I took my order for some dog clippers out to the mail box (about 300+ feet thru the front gate) and Valentina followed me all the way without once interferring in my walk. She sat at the front gate while I went past it; then we headed back to the house. She comes when I call her and, of course, is given a tiny piece of cheese.

Oh yes, I'm having fun with this puppy; and it is so obvious she, too, is having fun. (I was initially concerned about Valentina's bonding too much with me; however, at her young age, I have put the need for her to feel safe as a priority. I, of course, may be wrong; however, I believe her "inherited" propensities to guard livestock (mixed with our "small" homestead where goats/fowl/dogs roam in such close proximity) will automatically kick in as she grows up.


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## jandersen

I'm really enjoying your post. I get my pup this evening very excited.


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## Rock

If you are the established alpha of your pack, you dont have to beg, bribe, wait, choke, strangle, smack or any of the questionable sensitive feel good asking the dog for their permission, training attempts, being put forth. Good pack members give way to the alpha! 
PS: These things might work for dogs without much of a pain threshold. I would like to see someone try to hang one of my dogs, I'd sell tickets to that! Lift a big dog up to hang it your going to bring the scary end real close and personal to ya, should be about face to face when their feet leave the ground, that will be fun. Or punch them in the part that latches onto a 1500lb bull, the only part of that I can agree with is the "once in a lifetime", Yeah I pretty well bet you would not ever try that again with the remaining arm.


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## Maura

I applaud your grooming time. Most people put very little time into handling feet, etc., unless it is a poodle or other professionally groomed dog. Your vet will love you.


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## motdaugrnds

Yes, thanks. I'm enjoying the grooming sessions.

There is one situation I'm a bit concerned with. It is Valentina's "biting" play with Cujo (our lab). Cujo is obviously not enjoying this type of play as those puppy teeth are sharp. However, he does not correct her as often as I'ld like him to. I've seen him growl and snap at Valentina when she gets too playful with those sharp teeth; but I'ld like him to do more. Any suggestions?


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## Rock

Maura said:


> I applaud your grooming time. Most people put very little time into handling feet, etc., unless it is a poodle or other professionally groomed dog. Your vet will love you.


1 of the exercises in the Military Super Dog Program is tickling them between their toes with a q-tip. These exercises start at 3 days old, before the dogs eyes are even open and all they know is their mother's scent. They are used to teach the dogs to adapt to stress stimuli. Dogs that go through the exercises have a very high stability rate when dropped into stressful situations VS dogs that have not. 
It also makes for a lifetime of easy foot care:spinsmiley:. I hate when people walk around with dogs having painfully long nails, claiming the dogs feet are so sensitive they wont let you touch them. No for whatever reason, the time was not taken to train the dog.


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## Maura

Most of our foster dogs have real long nails, even ones from regular homes. I've had my current puppy mill survivor for a year and a half and still haven't gotten his nails down to where I want them (about half as long now as when I got him). If you "can't" trim his nails, take him to a groomer!


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## motdaugrnds

Ummmm ..... I have a toenail trimmer for dogs and David has used them on one of the dogs we have had. (He tells me of an experience he had with a pitbull. That dog hated getting his nails trimmed; but David would trim them anyway. One day David got home from work and found that dog chewing off her own nails. He checked that foot and found all those nails neetly trimmed. ROFL David said he patted her on the head and said "good dog".) 

I've never trimmed dog nails and have no idea where the veins are. Will google and see if I can find a good u-tube on trimming dog nails. (The vet looked at Valentina's toes, said her dew claws were practically nonexistent and did not mention my needing to trim her nails.)

Found a couple of good videos (U-tube) about trimming nails on dogs; so will be putting this knowledge to good work as needed ... on both dogs. (Cujo's nails look just fine (no clicking when walking on hard-wood floors) as though they have been worn off. However, our ground is sandy loam. So I'm guessing the cinder block retainer wall and the rock on the driveways are helping him as I've never seen him chewing on his nails. (Guessing some dogs' nails just don't grow much.)


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## motdaugrnds

Update....

Look what I saw occurring today....Yes, that is this little Karakachan strolling around in the pasture with the goats.


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## Maura

Just take a nail file and drag it once across each nail. Your puppy may never need a nail trim from being outside all day. But, just as part of socializing and in case she ever tears a nail you want her to be confident about having her feet handled. Also, when dogs get old they sometimes stop running around and their nails will grow long.


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## Rock

What ever you do dont waste your money on one of those pettipaw things, use a Dremel, or a guillotine type trimmer with replaceable blades. 
Someone gave me one of those (use 2 c batteries) almost made it thru 1 dog. I have 144 nails to do??? plus you can use the dremel for other things. I've had the same guillotine for at least 10 years.


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## wendle

motdaugrnds said:


> ROFL That is an excellent question Wendle; however, CathyGo I really like what you said about emphasizing the positive.


It is funny. The sad thing is, I have had at least a couple people do just that when their dogs were out of control harrassing a sheep. These were previously trained dogs away from stock that knew all kinds of tricks, and had some obedience training. They didn't use a hot dog, but other treats. They weren't lgds, but one was an aussie, the other was a cattle dog. They started out with pp training. Both said right off the bat that they didn't believe in corrections on their dogs. After one of the dogs ran my sheep into a fence killing it, I asked them if they thought it was a pp experience for the sheep. They decided to rethink their training. They did pay for the sheep, but never pursued herding. It was a city dog/pet, not a farm dog. I think pp would work just fine in controlled environments with some dogs. I've also changed my lesson area fencing to protect my sheep better from unruly dogs with beginner handlers. Live and learn.


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## motdaugrnds

Wendle, ROFL, "...I think pp would work just fine in controlled environments with some dogs..." For the life of me I cannot find anything wrong with this statement as some dogs would, indeed, make better trainers! ROFL

Rock, I'm going to google guillotine trimmers and learn about them. I only have the 2 dogs (nothing like the number you work with); so not sure getting an expensive trimmer would be very cost effective for me......OMG the only "guillotine trimmer" I found was for cutting paper. Rock, I can just picture your lining all your dogs up along side that paper trimmer and, with one whack cut all their nails at the same time.


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## wendle

If you want a nice set of nail trimmers that will last. http://www.petedge.com/product/Millers-Forge-Pet-Nail-Clipper-for-Large-Dogs/43301.uts 
Personally I hate the guillotine trimmers. They are a bit cumbersome to get the nail in the hole quickly, especially if you have a wiggly dog. Some dog's nails can barely fit in them too. If you have a dewclaw(hopefully you won't let it get to this point) that had grown into the skin, then you can't get the other trimmers around it. I've had similar nail trimmers to the link for over 20 years as a dog groomer, and they are still working great.


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## Maura

I don't understand why the first time you exposed your dog to livestock he'd be off leash. That is just stupid. I train dogs and use positive reinforcement, but also use the aversive "ahhh!". Any dog that is to be around livestock needs obedience training first, and you first expose them at a distance so you can control them. Of course in a LGD situation, the puppy is exposed to the livestock at a tender age and has a different relationship with them.

I bought a Dremel because I sometimes have wiggly dogs and it's too hard to clip those little nails if there is no cooperation. I don't have to worry about cutting the vein, and I can sand down the top of the nail a little to make the vein recede on long nails. They make a smaller version for dogs, but I'm sure the regular kind would work better for extra large dogs.


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## wendle

The dog was on a long line in a round pen and the handler lost the line when the dog lunged. It wasn't the first time for the dog. I had worked him a few times already and he did work good for me. He had respect for my personal space and would move away from me to keep him out from the sheep. The dog was obedience trained. He had zero respect for the owner. The owner wouldn't use any pig paddle or stick to **** the dog out from the sheep. When she did try to block his path, he went right past like she wasn't there. I see this time and time again. Some dogs have obedience titles on them as well. Obedience training does not equal respect. When a big distraction is there, the dog's primitive instincts can overrule what he has learned. That is unless he is trained properly from the start around livestock. Even though in this case it was herding dogs. I can see there are still some basic canine instincts that follow similar paths in lgds.


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## motdaugrnds

I agree it is the "instincts" of any breed that needs to be worked with. If a dog has the prey instinct, regular obedience training alone will do nothing in keeping sheep/goats/whatever safe should that dog take a mind to chase...UNLESS of course that dog has a great deal of respect for its owner/trainer.

An LGD will, also, do this to some extent. That is why it is crucial to socialize the LGD well (hopefully while still a puppy); and I'm beginning to think that pup's parents should do the beginnings of this while out in the field working. However, should you bring home an LGD that has just been weaned as I did, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE for that pup's socialization and training of its natural instincts.

In my personal situation with this little Karakachan, I feel real fortunate to be on a small homestead where all my animals (goats & fowl) free range together. This pup cannot...CANNOT...not socialize with them; and I'm there to correct anything I don't like. So far, Valentina has shown only puppy playfulness without ANY actual prey drive....knock on wood!


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## Maura

Even a well trained, normally biddable dog will not obey when he is in a new situation because dogs do not generalize. They do not know that "sit" in the kitchen is the same thing as "sit" in the front yard. You have to retrain them in any new area. Above, I wrote that the dog should first be at a distance from the livestock. You don't just put the dog in and expect him to listen to you because you have two things going against you: new territory and extreme attractive distraction. The dog was probably less responding to you at an obedience level, but more on a fear level. This doesn't mean he wasn't actually getting an obedience lesson at the same time. If the dog truly did not respect it's owner she is not going to be able to control him when there is a distraction and they should not be working together. Too bad.

LGD have a different time set for prey drive to set in, which is why you can have them bond to the other animals and accept them without hunting them. If you plan on having any other type of animal on your homestead in the future you might want to take her to those animals to expose her now.


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## wendle

Maura said:


> Even a well trained, normally biddable dog will not obey when he is in a new situation because dogs do not generalize


This is not entirely right. I regularly take my dogs to demos and stockdog competitions. Even though they do have their moments, overall they are very controllable and not a danger to the livestock. It is normal for them to be expected to compete and work a long day on different sheep and different fields. 


Maura said:


> Above, I wrote that the dog should first be at a distance from the livestock. You don't just put the dog in and expect him to listen to you because you have two things going against you: new territory and extreme attractive distraction. The dog was probably less responding to you at an obedience level, but more on a fear level.


When training on stock you have to at some point get the dog near the edge of the flight zone or he will not learn how to rate the livestock or be responsible for his own actions. This is taking into consideration the dog already knows some obedience off of stock. 
Yes the dog was responding to me out of fear as he didn't know me, and I was waving my hat and taking ground. I never had to touch the dog. Mostly it was attitude and presentation.
Yes I can take a talented pup that I've raised myself(and some I haven't) and literally just dump them in with the sheep. I can get them to do what I want in a very short time. It isn't about commands, but communicating to the dog what is expected of him. You can get past the extreme distraction if the pup has respect, and you know how to read him. It doesn't take choking, shocking or rough treatment either.


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## motdaugrnds

Wendle you seem to work somewhat as I do in that you make every attempt to understand/respect that dog's drive(s). That certainly gives you credibility in training and/or working with whatever dog you need to. I personally would never put myself in the situations you place yourself in as I do not trust my ability to control a dog I do not know well. (I also know dogs can be obedient out of fear and I guess as a "last resort" kind of thing that is ok; but it is certainly not something I ever want one of my dogs to experience. Still in a "strange/new" situation when control is a neccessity, that motivator could be useful.)

I do believe dogs of probably all breeds act differently in situations that are new to them; and I think that is why socializing LGDs (hopefully at a young age) is so important. I also believe a "person" who does not understand the dog being worked with can cause that dog more problems than it might have even encountered all by itself....I can just see a large LGD in a new situation with livestock unknown to it being handled by an ownder who is naive...to say it politely...as to what that dog is experiencing. (I'm hearing much about LGDs being "rehomed" and I suspect much of the time it is because the owner bit off more than he/she knew how to chew. I actually get angry about that because it is often the dog that gets the blame.)


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## wendle

I don't think it's a fear because I have been mean to the dog, I wasn't, it's more because the dog didn't know me. It's more like he doesn't want to come into my space because he doesn't know me. He knows his owner and isn't worried. I utilize that natural caution of the unknown and expand on it a bit by communicating to the dog through my actions. My actions say don't come into my space and chase my sheep. Not a whole lot different from a dominant dog keeping another away from his bone, or food. It doesn't work with all dogs. The dog I mentioned earlier that came after me obviously wasn't worried. He grew up believing he was the big dog.


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## motdaugrnds

I can see how that type of "respect" of personal space can work just fine with some dogs. I personally would hate to have to prove my dominancy to a large dog I did not know.....yikes!


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## wendle

The whole "respect" of personal space is basically a tool to teach the dog to treat the livestock right. Some dogs don't know it's not ok to take the livestock down and chew on them. My youngest lgd went through a period last fall where she killed a couple ducks. She had been ok for the longest time, but one day found out they were fun to chew on. She also wanted to chew on my bottle lambs. I tried to utilize the same methods my other lgd used to correct dogs on his sheep. He would directly confront, grumble, bump, and if necessary mouth the other dog. Instead of mouthing of course I would swat the lgd, but most of the time if she saw me coming she backed right off. Then she got to the point that all I would have to do was scold her out the window and she stopped. Over the winter during lambing season both dogs were together extensively, so Zeus could teach the youngster how to behave around lambs. That sure helped too. Zeus doesn't understand pp training, but is the best trainer for the young dog.


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## motdaugrnds

Yes, I understand and you are so fortunate to have Zeus to help you train that puppy. (I like to use a rolled up newspaper to swat at a puppy in training, though I've not had to use it as yet with this pup.)

Little Valentina was wanting to play with the guineas today and I had to remind her that was not ok. A quick "uh uh" in a growling voice worked nicely...wishing I had a Zeus!

Valentina did do something I was quite pleased with just a moment ago. I had been so busy much of the day I had forgotten to set her food dish out so she would have the opportunity to eat again. (I like to feed her 3-4 times a day with her dry foods and I cannot leave it out because the chickens know where it is and will gobble it all down quickly. She is not yet as protective of her food as I'ld like her to be; and Cujo is only helpful when he is hungry.) Anyway, my back door was open and, though she didn't come inside, she let me know she was there; and when I went out, she walked over to where I always place her food dish. So of course I gave her another opportunity to eat and she did. 

Oh gotta tell this! (Again wishing I had this on video.) I've been trying to teach Cujo it is ok to "play bite" Valentina, especially when she is playing with him and her little sharp puppy teeth hurt. (He somehow got the idea...from me I'm sure...that this little pup could do whatever she wanted to no matter how much it bothered him. So unless her little teeth hurt pretty bad, he will tolerate them. Well, I don't like that so I had an opportunity to teach him.)

Valentina was jumping upon Cujo, running around and play-biting him. When she hurt, he would swing his head around to stop it and I praised him...wondering if maybe it is a good idea or not since his jaws are quite strong and I don't want this pup hurt. Still I praised him each time he swung his head around to correct Valentina. He would do it more and more often and even started to chase her a little. Again I praised him and started laughing. Now call me silly, but I have no doubt both dogs took my laughter as a sign it was ok to be doing what they were doing. I say this because the more I laughed, the more Cujo would chase and play-bite Valentina. He would even get on his back and roll while she attacked him. This was the first time I'ld seen these two play so well together; and when Cujo had his teeth around Valentina's head/throat it was obviously designed NOT to hurt her....whew!!


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## Maura

If you are taking your dogs to trials then you have been working with them. I believe that every time you take your dog to a new place with old commands he learns them faster, but a newly trained dog in a new place might as well be thought of as untrained because you are going to have to "remind" him what sit, down and come mean. A dog that is newly trained, or a dog that is never out of his own yard is not reliable. Practice makes perfect.


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## beccachow

I have never had LGD's, but I have had lots of transitions with puppies into established dog packs. What I notice is that the big dogs will almost always tolerate nearly anything from the puppies, as if they know they are just babies.

Until...

The day ultimately comes when the Puppy Privelege is revoked by the big fellows. Then the learning begins.

To the day Duke passed away, he was still letting Brandy (about 1 year old) eat from his food dish, "win" at play fights and such. He would curl a lip at her when she went too far, and she would back down immediately. DUke was the old man, head honcho. Cricket was the second in command, and revoked her puppy priveleges a lot earlier then DUke did, also a lot more agressively. They still fight even today.

Pups will be pups, and the adults will tolerate it as much as they can for as long as they will, then things will quite subtly change. Cujo is letting her know her place in his own way; he won't hurt her unless she asks for it. This will change for sure in the next couple of months.

Enjoy your sweet puppy. She is a doll.


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## motdaugrnds

Thank you Becky, I really appreciate your reminding me of that fact.


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## CathyGo

wendle said:


> It is funny. The sad thing is, I have had at least a couple people do just that when their dogs were out of control harrassing a sheep.They started out with pp training. Both said right off the bat that they didn't believe in corrections on their dogs.


You're just not happy unless I'm telling someone to beat their dog are you? I never said I used positive exclusively and yet that's the conclusion you jumped to. I use positive to teach my dog what I expect of him rather than using punishment to teach him. Once he knows a command my dog gets corrected for refusing to follow it.


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## motdaugrnds

Please don't turn my wonderful thread into one of bickering....We can all differ and understand each other's methods without agreeing with them and/or putting each other down for making choices we would not make.


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## Rock

Maura said:


> Even a well trained, normally biddable dog will not obey when he is in a new situation because dogs do not generalize. They do not know that "sit" in the kitchen is the same thing as "sit" in the front yard. You have to retrain them in any new area.


 This totally lost me? I take my dog across the state line he still knows how to sit??
Anywho Here is the type of clipper I was talking about
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0010O7882

It all boils down to what you are comfortable with, I can trim as fast with them as any other type. I have also at one time or another made a nail bleed with all of them. _(In that case the dremel is the worst, only takes a second to fling blood everywhere) _ I'm not in a hurry or on the clock when I'm doing it, and grooming time is bonding in our pack.


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## motdaugrnds

Update.....

Should have all been watching from my front porch yesterday evening while David was taking Valentina on her walk around the parameter of our homestead. She trotted just as though she was showing off in a ring....ROFL She was so good at it that David added the back part of the homestead to her walk and let her drink out of the creek bordering it. This was the first time she had ever been in the back pasture! 

Valentina pulled a few tantrums as she wanted to explore the new areas but those episodes were much shorter than prior ones; and when they returned to the front of the homestead, she took another drink of water, then went and layed down under the shade trees with the goats. ROFL


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## CathyGo

I actually have an easier time with the Dremel than I do guillotine clippers. I'll use a scissors style clipper to get the big overgrowth off and then use the Dremel for the last little bit and to round the edges.


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## motdaugrnds

I just received the Andis clippers. They look easy enough to use and the weather certainly is getting hot; however, Valentina is still just a baby so I'm wondering if maybe I should let her experience part of the heat with all her hair in tack so as to learn how to deal with warm weather. (Does this make sense?) Would any of you go ahead and clip her hair now?


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## aart

I'd maybe wait and see how she does with the heat, just making sure she has a cool place to dig a hole in the dirt.

Maybe you've clipped a dog before but, get her hair clean before you clip or you'll dull your brand new blades pretty quick. I learned this the hard way, now I bathe then let dry a bit and keep them inside/clean before clipping. She might be hard to clip with that thick coat.

I'm sure other LGD owners will have much better and more thorough advice.


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## CottageLife

CathyGo said:


> I actually have an easier time with the Dremel than I do guillotine clippers. I'll use a scissors style clipper to get the big overgrowth off and then use the Dremel for the last little bit and to round the edges.


 Don't clip her so short that she'll get sunburned. Just a side thought


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks. I think I'll wait a bit and let her learn how to stay cool during the heat of the day. The nights are still cool so she doesn't suffer at night; and there is nearly always a breeze blowing across the spot she and the goats like to hang out at mid-day.

Ummmm ....just went out today to pull some low-growing maple limbs down so the goats could reach them. (I often do this, especially with the huge trees in my back yard.) Valentina came out from her shady spot and was trying to reach the leaves like the goats were doing. She actually jumped several times trying to reach one, got one and took it over to lay down and chew on....ummm Do you think my pup is going thru some identity crises? ROFL


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## Maura

Brush her real well. Then, turn the clippers on and hold them well away from her. You want her to not be scared of the sound, so possibly put her in an enclosed porch and step off the porch. She should alert to the new sound but not show fear. If she becomes upset in any way, you are too close. Over the next few days, brush her then turn the clippers on. Start at your original "not too close" distance, then take a step towards her. Turn them off. You get the idea. When you can get the clippers close her her, turn it off and let her sniff them. Then, run the clippers over her while off. It's better to take too long with this initial step then doing it too fast.

You may find that the brushing pulls out enough fur that you don't need to clip her. In that case, turn the clippers on, run them over her but don't actually cut.


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## motdaugrnds

Maura, what a great technique. Thanks so much for sharing it. I shall do exactly what you've suggested....oohhh can hardly wait for tomorrow when I can start it.


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## aart

Good idea to get her used to the clippers even if you don't actually cut her hair yet.
You could put a really long comb on them and actually touch her with them when you get to that point of desensitizing. Good Luck, I know you'll have fun!


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## motdaugrnds

I've been looking over my blades as I have received 4 of them. A #10 came onthe clipper. I ordered two of the 7FC and the company sent me one that leaves 5/8th inch hair as it cuts. (I know I could use a comb and clip next the comb at most any length, though she would have to be extra still for me to do that...maybe in time, though I doubt I'll be cutting her hair very often.)

I suspect I'll be cutting her hair down to about 5/8th of an inch so she will not get sunburned through the hot summer. I will want it to have time to grow out well so it will be useful to her during winter months; so I'll need to watch to see how fast her hair grows. That should tell me when to stop cutting her hair so as to give it plenty of time to grow out....golly there is a lot to learn that I had not evn considered with this pup....all good!!

I couldn't sleep last night; so was looking over the clilppers, reading instructions and all when I heard Valentina growl...not once nor twice but 3 times. (I had NOT turned on the clippers so the buz it would make could not have been what she had seen a need to growl about.) I looked out the door and Cujo was asleep on the back porch. Valentina was sitting on the steps looking out though I could not see anything that might have caused her to growl. I stepped out so as to be better able to see; and Cujo woke and came over for a pet. Valentina just sat there looking at me and wagging her tail until Cujo came over for pets. Then she "worf" at me and wagged her tail. I got the impression she wanted a pet too; so I told her to "sit", which she did; then I petted her too, which she enjoyed.

These little things are letting me know Valentina is settling in on this homestead, feels at home, is copying Cujo to some extent....even copying the goats to some extent; and enjoys being petted/praised. She's still eating good, has started taking her large morning vitamin down the stairs to eat it beside Cujo, who has always taken his bone down stairs to eat it on the grass and is more often with the goats. Oh I also saw my 6 yr old cat walk out on the back porch a few days ago and sat there while Valentina checked her out...That was a first for Jet, the cat and, though Valentina was obviously leery of Jet, she didn't even try to hurt her! And in the house, Jet has resumed sleeping in my lap as I watch television, telling me she is thinking the new smell (being Valentina's) is something she can now accept.

Ooooh something else new occurred today. I had thawed some goat ribs (always save these for the dogs), dividing one whole side between Cujo and Valentina, and given this to them "after" they had eaten some of their dry food. Of course both dogs have to sit (and do so now without my even telling them to) to get their part. When I gave Valentina her's she eagerly started enjoying it when I reached down to take it. She growled some (without the body action of being ready to attack) but let me take it away without incident....no I didn't need to hold onto her at all in order to take it. As I held it up, she sat down again and again I returned it to her.  

David just told me what had occurred yesterday when he was taking Valentina for her daily walk around the back pasture. Valentina stopped! David stopped to see what was occurring and she was standing there looking at something on the ground with one of her front paws held up high up under her. David watched this a bit, then gave her a tug, said come on and she started walking again with David, continuing their trip. (Isn't that what a "bird dog" does when it sees a covy of quail? I've seen Cujo do this same thing and sometimes he actually brings in s morning dove!)


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## wendle

The 7FC is going to be easier to get through the hair if she has tangles or thick undercoat, but 5/8 of course leaves a little more cover. I use a 7FC on my lgd. She is smooth, and no sunburn. Don't use it against the lay of the hair. Then it will get it extremely short.


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## motdaugrnds

Wendle, what do you mean, "...Don't use it against the lay of the hair. Then it will get it extremely short." By that do you mean run the clippers from a direction opposite from the way the hair grows?

Finding little bumps on Valentina. They are not red nor do they look like bites. Still they feel like what a human would call the beginning of a pimple. Anyone have any idea what this might be?


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## wendle

Right, don't clip opposite the way the hair grows. Dog hair grows front to back at a downward angle, with a few exceptions. . Try to follow the same angle. It's hard to see in a longer coated dog. I use the 10 blade for under the toe pads. Then scissor the feet, and around the face.


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## motdaugrnds

Ok I'm hearing you to say I should use the #10 blades (These leave only about 1/8th of an inch of hair.) under the toe pads and scissor the feet and around the face. I'm not quite sure what this is actually saying. First off I thought " under the toe pads" were her feet; and secondly, having a sharp pointed object like scissors up near her eyes is not something I feel comfortable with doing with a puppy...too many risks of her wiggling at the wrong time.

I do understand running clippers in the same direction her hair grows. Does this actually make for easier trimming than running opposite the way the hair grows? (I have this mental image that the hair is easier cut if the blade is "under" the hair when it is laying down onto the skin; and to me this means running the blade in the opposite direction that the hair grows.)


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## Maura

At her age I wouldn't even clip her. Her baby coat is going to become her undercoat. As she gets larger with more skin area, the outer coat will grow in. Do desensitize her to the clippers, but she will probably only need clipping under her ears where the fur may mat, and possibly under the elbows. That coat that you think will be too warm will protect her from the sun. Give her a kiddie pool if you are worried about the heat, and brush her at least once a week to get out debris and help her shed.


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## wendle

motdaugrnds said:


> Ok I'm hearing you to say I should use the #10 blades (These leave only about 1/8th of an inch of hair.) under the toe pads


 An easier way for you would be to just scissor the long hairs on the feet. It isn't necessary, but does cut down on mud and ice sticking between the toes. Your dog probably doesn't have too much hair right around the eyes, the scissoring would be more to neaten around the ears, and blend with the rest of the body. The reason not to go against the lay of the hair is that it would make it too short
Below is a picture of one of my lgds with a #7 blade body clip. This is her second hair cut, the first time was at 8 months old. I don't shave my other lgd, and the only reason I do this one is because her hair is so long and thick..


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## motdaugrnds

WOW what a beautiful LGD you have Wendle. Thanks for showing her. In my ignorance of LGD breeds, I cannot identify her. What breed is she?

Ok the more I re-read what you are all saying, the better imaging I'm getting and this is helping me understand better.

Maura, I've already decided (see above) not to clip her yet. I am only desensitizing her now as you suggested.

Thanks for the information about her coat. I didn't know the "outer" coat I am now seeing will become her "inner" coat as she grows. And I do understand why clipping certain areas where she would be more prone to sweat would be important. 

I don't understand how leaving the rest of her uncut...later on in life...would protect her from the sun without causing a great deal of discomfort in the "humid summers" we have here. (I'm thinking some time in late summer I will try Wendle's suggestion to cut the hair in the same direction as it grows as this will leave enough hair on her to prevent sunburn.)

I do have kiddie pools kept out in various places under shade trees for the geese; so she can certainly use those to stand in if she wants. However, it seems so inadequate during for long haired animals in our climate. 

By the way, I took the clippers out to the back porch this morning, called Valentina, had her do her little sit, lay down and roll over while I searched for ticks. Then gave her the regular treat (for joints). Only this time I kept her there and combed her hair, giving a regular little cheese treat because she was so calm about it. Then I turned on the clippers (holding them at arms length from her. This startled her a little but not even enough to get a "worf or growl". (I'm thinking I must have turned them on earlier just before I heard her growl/worf and just forgot I had done so.) She would not get close to them but was wanting to check them out. So I brought them close to her (with them turned off). She smelled them. Then I turned them on low while real close to her. She did not even move, just wanted to check them out again. So I turned them off and combed her hair with them. Of course she got another tiny treat. I will continue doing this periodically just so when I do decide to use them, she will continue to understand they do not hurt.

Please know I am so very grateful for the wonderful information and shared experiences you are all giving me. I am learning from everyone; and I contribute much of the success I'm having with this little LGD to each of you.


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## wendle

She is 5/8 Great Pyrenees, and 3/8 Anatolian Shepherd. I know there are plenty of people who don't trim long coated dogs and they seem to do fine. They do need a good brushing out if that is the case though. I could see a big difference in my dog after her trim. She was a lot more active. I also like that I can find ticks easier. Shee can play in the creek without getting all nasty and matted up. Here is a picture of her before her trim last winter.


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## motdaugrnds

Thank you so much Wendle for showing her before she was trimmed. I shall wait until Valentina gets around 9 months, which will be the last of September; then I'll decide what to do, maybe a short clip as it would not be too long before winter would set in here.


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## wendle

I wouldn't trim her that late in the season since it will take a few months for her to grow back.


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## Maura

Don't let that fur fool you. A dog that sheds out, even though it still has a big coat, can be cool underneath. The fur insulates them from the sun. I know it sounds crazy, but huskys are not shaved and they have a pretty good fur coat. You really need to wait and see how she responds to the heat. The fact that you are spending the time to groom her will make a big difference because when her coat is ready to shed you will be pulling it out, thinning the coat out. You might want to look into a Furminator when she gets her big girl coat.


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## motdaugrnds

Yes I am seeing her coat, though rather long, is rather thin. It does not look that thick right now; so combing her is working well...and she loves being combed.

I do intend to wait this first year to see how her hair grows and how she weathers our humid summer. I have the tools I need now (Didn't get a #4F or #5F.) so may start using them next year.

Maura, what is a "Furminator"? Oh, I'll google it.....Just found a U-Tube showing that ferminator and I actually have one of those that I've been using on my dogs for some time now.


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## CathyGo

I use a shedding stone. It's much cheaper than the Furminator and genuinely only pulls out the stuff that's ready to be pulled out. Not sure how it would work on a dog with as long of a coat as yours does but it works very well on every dog I've used it on.


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## motdaugrnds

CathyGo, I can see how that stone would work well with my lab as his hair is quite short. Thanks for telling me about it. Didn't even know such a thing for dogs existed.

A little update....

This morning as I was preparing Valentina's grooming session, I decided to comb Cujo first; so I called him up onto the stoop. He came and sat down knowing I was going to comb him. Valentina also came and sat down watching me comb Cujo.  After Cujo's session was over, I gave him his treat, then turned to Valentina who was easier than ever to groom. (I've also noticed when I call Cujo, Valentina comes too; and both dogs sit down waiting for their treats.) I really like how this puppy copies others around her....I think I told you all about her jumping up to get a leaf off a tree limb I was holding down for the goats. HaHaHa

Was weeding my strawberries today when here comes Valentina. She had managed to crawl thru the geese door and was happily showing off as she trotted around barking at my hoe. (I should have been angry at her for coming in without permission but she was just so cute! And I was too tired to scold her and walk her all the way back to where she had entered.) A bit later I heard the chickens squak and saw Valentina chasing one. I called her by name and said "uh uh" very loud. She stopped and sat down. I called her and she came, tail wagging.

A similar incident occurred inside the barn this evening. Valentina wanted to play with the kids. It was obvious she wasn't trying to hurt them; but chasing them is NOT ok; so another "uh uh" (several times quite loudly) put a stop to that. Isn't she too young to be going thru adolescents? ROFL


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## Maura

Early training is so important when one has livestock. Each day is such an adventure for her.


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## motdaugrnds

Update....

Took Valentina in for another visit with the vet today. She now weighs 28.6 lbs, having gained about 10 lbs in one month. No signs of worms and "very healthy".  

She was so sweet, permitting the vet to give her a full exam, take a fecal sample and give her two shots (one being the rabbies vac). I bought some "Sentinel" for heart worms and will start her on these (once a month) starting tomorrow. (Didn't want too many chemicals going into her little body in one day; and knew I was going to put a flea collar on her this evening.)

While I was paying the vet bill, David told Valentina to "sit" and, without prompting of any kind, she sat down and looked up waiting for praise. He offered her the vitamin the vet had attempted to give her (which she would not take from her) and Valentina gratefully ate it. (I felt so good at seeing her respond like that.)

Got the "Adams Plus for small dogs" flea and tick collar. Purchased two so the one can be extended as she grows because she is growing so fast. This is to last about 5 months. Tried to find the Flea "tablet" someone had mentioned somewhere and couldn't find any. Also couldn't remember the name or where I heard about it.  [Did find the "Serestar" for Cujo and will get a $20 rebate on it.) NOTE: It is called "Flea Away", comes in tablet form and is without chemicals.

Again the trip was very long for Valentina as, again, David and I did everything in one trip. But she was so very sweet the entire time. She was very alert to all the new noises and sights yet not once did she attempt to get on the seats or climb on anything. She sat or layed down between the seats on the floor of the van. When we got home, Valentina heard Cujo's greeting and started barking. David opened the door and she waited until she was told it was ok. Then she "cautiously" walked down and out of the van. 

I did forget to ask the doctor to give her the Lymes Disease vaccination; so will call about that tomorrow.

Right now Valentina is sound asleep with her new toy (rope with small rubber tire at one end) on her tummy....all in all a very good trip for all of us!

Addition: Had to share what occurred this morning. Was tending the animals and, because it was raining so badly, I filled their bins with bailed orchard grass. Valentina decided to eat with them, put her little front paws on the step used by the goats so they can reach the hay and managed to pull out a long leaf. She stood there like that chewing on that as she looed around. (Do you think she believes she is part goat?) ....darn... I need to carry a video around with me!


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## Rock

It has had some ups and downs, but it overall has been a very slanted towards teaching sharing of info place, I like that!:bow:


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## motdaugrnds

Rock, thank you for noticing (and acknowledging) the over all process of this thread. I really admire the respectful way people have dealt with each other's differences in here. Ups and downs are just fine when this happens! 

Oh just had to share this. I caught it on video. Now if only I can figure out how to use U-tube, I'ld place it here for all to see. The incident occurred late yesterday when I decided to move the little kiddie pool I use for my geese to a part of the back yard that is shady during the hottest part of our summer days. I washed it out, filled it with fresh water and, as I was filling it, Valentina came over, barked at the water coming out of the hose, then drank some water. When I was finished filling it, I placed her two front feet into the pool. She just stood there, drank some water, then got out. I did it again and, this time, she walked right in. I left her there, though she came right out. It wasn't long before I noticed her again in that pool. I got my camera and got a video of her jumping around and playing in that kiddie pool.  Now I'm wondering if she is going to let the geese have any part of it! HaHaHa


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## motdaugrnds

....another photo of Valentina laying in the front yard (taken last month) looking like she owns the worl


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## motdaugrnds

Having a situation to deal with and not quite sure how....

Have you ever had your little 2 yr old 2-legged kid run around playing "catch me if you can" right after getting him out of the bathtub and he is stark naked? (Well I was a bit more agile back then!) Valentina is now reminding me of this by slipping into the garden (via goose door) without permission. When I notice her, call her name and tell her to get out, she barks at me, makes a little jump in my direction and runs ... obviously wanting me to chase her. Of course I refuse to do this, yet calling her isn't working as she woofs at me and runs again...just like a 2 yr old running naked around the house. Yes she is cute; but this is presenting me with a dilemma to solve.

How would you all deal with this? (Remember she is only a little over 3 months of age and my priority is for her to enjoy this place; however obedience is a must too.)


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## Maura

Usually, running in the opposite direction will get her moving toward you. Just like the naked toddler.

If that doesn't work, put her on a sit or down, then call her to you again in a cheerful voice. Go back to carrying treats to use for the recall and practice around the perimeter of the goose pen. Later that same day, go into the goose pen and practice the recall, using treats.


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## CathyGo

Turn your back and completely ignore her. If she circles around in front of you look anywhere except where she is. Deprived of the attention she was seeking hopefully the fun will go right out of it. When she gets back out of the pen suddenly change from your best statue impression to an animated person who is so happy to see her.


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## motdaugrnds

ROFL you have both reminded me (with your comments) of what she is actually doing. I was concerned she was defying authority; however, for the most part, she is simply playing like a happy puppy does. Yes, I'm going to take both of your suggestions as they are very compatible and fits perfectly with my need to keep this puppy happy while expecting her to comply. Thanks so much for reminding me she is still a baby.


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## Rock

Both posts by Cathygo & Maura are good:thumb:,
I train the recall with a 30' lunge. I say their name 1 time, reel them in if they dont come, as soon as they start in my direction under their own power, I get out my happiest voice open arms lovin them up game on.
I'm not against using treats, in fact use them all the time, just in this situation the treat is not food tug toy or bite wedge, I'm the treat.


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## beccachow

I couldn't agree more with how overall positive this thread has been. Many chances to go south pretty quickly, but you all stepped up and maintained. Loving it!


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## motdaugrnds

Got it! Love the idea of myself being the treat at times too, though Valentina doesn't take in hugs like Cujo does...She prefers food!

Yes, Beccachow, I have not once been sad that I started this thread. The people who have posted are just so wonderful!!!


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## aart

I used food (just a tiny dried meat treat) and happy voice (trainer called it dog party) at first, then backed off on the treats and they learned to love the dog party. YMMV. Part of training to voice (good voice, bad voice). Worked good, tone of voice means everything no matter what the words are, but good to consistently use certain words too.

motdaugrnds....love that you're keeping up with this journal, I find it fascinating...and am living vicariously as I probably won't ever have another pup to train :(


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## motdaugrnds

Aart, I'm real glad to be able to share this pup with you. I'm being blessed by you and all the others in here who are helping me with her initial training as I have felt so very uncertain.

Update.....
Valentina has almost doubled in size already! (As soon as I get the batteries recharged in the camera, I'll present an updated picture.)

Last evening heard Valentina making her little "woof woof" sounds and the guineas were making a real fuss. Looking out the back I saw the largest black crow I've ever seen standing on the ground unafraid and drinking out of one of the water pans. Valentina was letting me know it was there, though she was not attempting to do anything about it. (The crow casually strolled around the water pan then flew to the top of the loft, apparently feeling quite at home.)

Yesterday I gave her and Cujo a "raw" hock each. Again, Cujo took his, laid it down and then sat beside it without eating it. I had decided to try out CathyGo's suggestion; so I had cut a nice chunk of meat off Valentinas hock first so as to use it as a give/take means of getting her bone without using the scruff of her neck as in prior times should she object.) Valentina took the bone and began enjoying it. I walked away to encourage Cujo to eat his; then slowly returned, getting closer to Valentina. I sat on the retainer wall within a foot of her eating that bone. She watched me and was obviously alert; however, she wagged her tail when she realized I was not going to take her bone. I was even able to stroke her back. I then offered her the chunk of meat, holding it in the palm of my left hand; and when she got up to take it out of my hand, I reached over with my right hand and picked up her bone. She must have swallowed that chunk of meat whole as I never saw her chew it. Still her tail was wagging as she saw me with her bone. She was not aggressive at all, just very alert. I let her take her bone and left her alone...not harassing her. 

Cujo still had not eaten his hock though he would certainly keep the chickens away from it. After Valentina had chewed her bone down quite a bit, she went over to look at Cujo's. Cujo let her have it and went over and got her left-over bone. (Gonna try something different next time as I'm thinking this is some type of status recognition going on between the two. Cujo will only eat after Valentina has had what she wanted. I've noticed this when they're eating their dry food too. Cujo will eat out of his dish; however, should Valentina want to eat out of his dish, he will let her and go over to eat out of her dish. I'm thinking maybe Cujo will actually eat "raw" meat if I let Valentina chew on it a bit first. Thus, next time I give them raw meat/bone, I'm going to hold Valentina's while she chews on it a bit, then give her a different one and offer Cujo the one she chewed on.)

There is now quite a difference in the way Valentina play bites. I can pet her and, when she puts her teeth on my hand, she does NOT bite down now. I can actually leave my hand in her mouth and she will let go. I suspect this has to do with the lessons she is learning from Cujo. Though he is reluctant to correct her, when her puppy teeth hurt too badly, I have seen him snap at her. I suspect learning just how hard to "play-bite" is something her litter mates would have taught her; but since I brought her home at such a young age, I and Cujo have had to teach her this.

The two dogs are playing rather rough with each other now, i.e. chasing each other and knocking against each other. Valentina falls, rolls and gets up to chase again. Sometimes she gets hurt, whines a bit then continues the play. I don't like this puppy getting knocked down!!!

It has become obvious this puppy loves her home and the freedom she has to roam all over it. Last night she actually slept in the barn...I guess for the first time or at least the first time I was up early enough to notice.

This morning I got to worrying about whether or not Valentina got all the shots she needed at this age. Have heard some people say the 5-way shot was not good enough for an LGD; that the 7-way was needed. So I called the vet to confirm exactly what she had been given shots for during the last visit. Her last shots were for dystemper, parvo virus, adeno virus type 1 & 2 and para influenca. She had been given a separate shot for lepto; then of course, she got her rabbies shot at that time. (They no longer call the shot a 5-way or 7-way.) So feel pretty certain she has received what she needs..except for the vaccination for lymes disease, which she will get the next time I go into town. 

Something just now occurred that frightened me. I heard Valentina yelp twice as though she had been hurt. I rushed out the back door while David jumped off the front porch. I called her and she came running up from the front pasture. Her tail was wagging. David and I both examined her for a good 5 minutes or more while she was quiet and submissive. We laid her on her side, on her back, rolled her over, stood her up on her hind legs, held her head and front shoulders up while she was on her back...all while Valentina was very still allowing us to do whatever. She was obviously not frightened, yet seemed to know something serious was occurring. We found nothing wrong with her at all...no bites or swelling or painful joints. Then Cujo came running up from the front pasture where Valentina had been. I can only guess they had been playing and he got too rough with her. She was fine! The part that I really like about it all is that, during a time of serious concern where she had experienced something painful, she permitted both David and I to have total control of her body so we could check her over good.


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## Maura

Cujo may be "taking care of" the puppy, making sure she has enough to eat. This could change when she gets older. He is such a nice dog.

None of my vets give the Lyme disease shot because it is not a good shot. Do some research into it.


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## motdaugrnds

Maura, the vet spoke as though it was a terrific thing to do; so I'll certainly do some research before letting any vet give it to my dogs. Thank you for telling me.

Yes, you certainly may be right about Cujo. He may be taking care of Valentina ... in his own unselfish way. (I'm not looking forward to the day that changes!) 

Here are a couple of pictures I took today. Valentina will be 4 months old in 3 days. I combined the picture I took today with the one I took shortly after I brought her home. Notice the change in her look, i.e. not the cute little puppy fur ball now but a young lady...LOL

The picture of her and Cujo shows exactly what they do and how they look each time they come when I call them.


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## Rock

Direct quote from the old country vet
" The American Veterinary Medical Association published an article in its journal in Nov 2003 stating that you cant diagnose Lymes based on test results, because anywhere from 25%-85% of dogs can test positive and when these animals were followed for several years, they were no more likely to come down with the disease than the animals that tested negative! IN OTHER WORDS THE TEST WAS WORTHLESS"
Those are his words, not mine, even the caps.
The test along with a shot for it are nothing more than a money grab.
Your pup is looking great


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## motdaugrnds

Rock hasn't that changed somewhat? My vet said the Lymes Disease vac in the past was not good; but they've come out with one that is good. Wish I could find something about this; but I haven't been able to.

Thanks for the compliment! Valentina is growing nicely.


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## CathyGo

Lyme disease is treatable with antibiotics. Easily really as long as the course of antibiotics is long enough.

Not worth the reaction risk IMO. 

Here's a vaccine schedule from a vet who is considered a specialist on vaccines. 

http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html

Yearly vaccinations have been known to be completely unnecessary for many years now. The standard recommendation changed to every 3 years for parvo, distemper, and rabies about 10 years ago but the way some vets carry on you would never know that there's 30 years of research backing those recommendations up. 

Some vets are very resistant to changing from the annual schedule because of the loss in income or a mistaken belief that people won't come in for just an annual exam if the dog doesn't "need" something. Others feel that there's "no harm" in extra vaccines. I will not deal with that mindset or lack of knowledge in how the immune system works. I drive 45 minutes to get to a vet who follows current standards and knows what he's talking about.


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## Rock

motdaugrnds said:


> Rock hasn't that changed somewhat? My vet said the Lymes Disease vac in the past was not good; but they've come out with one that is good. Wish I could find something about this; but I haven't been able to.
> 
> Thanks for the compliment! Valentina is growing nicely.


It is not needed. I have turned down 20K cash for my male stud that was on Superpooches, I have the most titled 100% Johnson American Bulldog female, in the history of the breed. Neither of them nor none of my dogs have ever had a shot for Lymes, never will. 
If they come down with it, treatment is with tetracycline.


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## motdaugrnds

Thank you both so much. That settles it for me! No lymes vac!!

I've had the flea collars on both dogs now for over a week; yet, I'm still finding ticks on Valentina. 

Was noticing both dogs playing together this morning as I came up from watering my nettle. Golly! Valentina is over half as tall as Cujo is now!


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## Maura

Flea collars are a joke. Try putting a few drops of lavender essential oil into a spray bottle and spraying with it on the belly.


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## motdaugrnds

I will! Thanks Maura.


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## motdaugrnds

Updated photo of Valentina. Here she is enjoying the cool grass with the goats. Everything appears to be going real smooth; yet I suspect there will be a few surprises I will need to deal with during this pup's development. I sure would appreciate a "heads up" on some issues those who raise LGDs encountered during the development of their pups. (Remember Valentina has no "working guard dog" to train her. I'll be having to do whatever needs to be done.)


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## motdaugrnds

Valentina woke me this morning with her little "woof woof woof" that would not stop. With her barking being so unusual, I knew something was amiss; so I stepped outdoors to see what was disturbing her. There was a baby goat (5 months old) crying in the barn in an unusual manner. I rushed out there and, also unusual, Valentina did not follow me but sat on the steps watching. I discovered a young kid yelling periodically yet with no apparent reason for it. Keeping an eye on her I noticed a slight swelling appear on the lower part of her right cheek; so I suspect she had been stung by a bumble bee. It wasn't long before the kid was eating/resting normally with the other kids. 

I am quite pleased with the way this little Karakachan is acting on our homestead though I am curious as to why she chose not to follow me to the barn this morning. She did later (as usual) when I was dishing up grain & milking.


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## motdaugrnds

Discovered some information that I thought might be of interest to some in here. It certainly was to me because it is about the developmental stages of LGDs; and with Valentina being so young, I believe this knowledge will be helpful to me and, ultimately, to her as well.

Apparently an LGD (maybe other dogs as well, though really don't know) has a couple of "fear stages". (Some LGDs don't go thru this; but apparently some may.) This can occur between the ages of 2-3 months and 8-10 months of age. The pup may show signs of being frightened by things that had not frightened it before, i.e. piece of paper blowing or a trashcan. (Should this occur and you feel a need to help the pup overcome this, just back up about 2 ft from what has frightened your pup, start grooming/playing with the pup and move closer and closer to what has frightened it until the pup is near it without being afraid.) Apparently sometimes this just subsides on its own.

Then there is the "teenage stage" (8-18 months of age when dog starts reaching sexual maturity, starts defining itself as well as its position in whatever "pack" it is identifying with) and apparently this is when the nice pup you've got starts forgetting much of what it has learned is appropriate and not appropriate and pushes authority issues. (Reminded me of a 4 yr old human pushing limits except that such a 4 yr old would not have sharp teeth.) Apparently this can show up in same-sex dogs fighting each other for dominance...and could easily show up between the LGD and its owner. To help counter this, one can keep the dog engaged in extra activities it enjoys where the owner remains the dominant figure. (It is important the owner stays the pack leader thru this stage!) 

I'm going to quote the party I learned all this from: "...This fighting is largely about pack standing, so as alpha you should be able to stop it, however, this is where balance comes in. You will come to understand the difference between fighting for standing, and fighting to kill. Fighting for pack standing is invaluable to these dogs, because this is how they learn the skills that will save their lives in a fight with a predator. Blood will be drawn in this type of fighting, and as much as I hate to see it happen (I do not want my animals hurt) this is similiar to a boxer learning how to take a punch. This, unfortunately, is the best way for a dog to learn how to keep their wits about them when they are fighting a true adversary. Unless the fighting escalates to the point of fighting to kill, you should not step in..." (I cannot share this person's user name because she/he is not in this HTforum; however, I've learned much from this person about LGDs.)

I am now starting to wonder if it is wise to get only one LGD. It would not be permitted to learn how to stand its ground with it charges nor with its owner; so how would such a dog learn? This is a quandary for me!


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## foolsgold

Wonderful information in that last post and a very good question too. While I think the learning by mock fighting/pack standing would be very valuable I think that an LGD would have enough instinct to be able to stand their ground against a predator. 
** I have no experience with LGD's. This is just me thinking 'out loud'.**


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## Maura

This is one reason a puppy needs dog friends. Your puppy has a dog friend, Cujo. As for learning to fight, they are using more instinct than experience. You are raising a confident puppy, which will count for a lot should she actually have to attack a predator. If she plays mock fighting games with Cujo, she is learning and practicing.

Not all LGD's are going to draw blood when they hit that fighting stage, but the more aggressive ones might. Is your breed a very aggressive breed? I think Cujo would probably back down if it got to that point. Just because a dog doesn't draw blood on it's friends doesn't mean it won't draw blood on an enemy. Most of our rescue Boston terriers are extremely dog friendly , but they don't hesitate to attack something else. I mean drawing blood, leaving puncture wounds, and going for the throat.


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## motdaugrnds

Maura, here is a little information I have gleaned from the web about this breed.

*The Karakachan Dog also known as Bulgarian Shepherd Dog is believed to have originated from the ancient Thracian dogs making this breed Europe's oldest. For centuries, this ancient breed of livestock guardian dogs have been bred and reared by proto-Bulgarians. The dogs were utilized to guard not only the livestock and the property but the owners as well. The Karakachan dog is a massive powerful breed with a well developed musculature of harmonic proportions. The dog has a typical molosser appearance. These long and coarse coated dogs are noted for their aggressiveness towards carnivores. The natural and conservative breeding traditions of the Karakachan have developed a breed with impressive working abilities. Bulgaria is a country with a large population of wolves and bears. The dog has a rather slow movement but it can chase wolves and can compete with this predator's speed anytime. The breed has the necessary strength, agility and excellent fighting skills to deal with bears and other predators. These dogs are highly valued by the nomadic shepherds. Unlike other domesticated dogs, the Karakachan are treated as respected family members. The dogs are even allowed to eat first. The Karakachan Dogs have a vegetarian diet made from oats and wheat mixed with little milk. *

*Because of its outstanding qualities, the Karakachan Dog is considered to be a Bulgarian legend. The dog was depicted in Bulgarian folklores and in classic Bulgarian literature. Presently there are about 600 to 700 purebred Karakachan dogs in Bulgaria.*

*Personality*
*Karakachan dogs were primarily developed to be working dogs as such they would be happiest when they are working. The dogs are very territorial. Bulgarians are aware of the fact that the livestock must be approached cautiously whenever the dog is around. These dogs may be wary of strangers and show an aggressive temperament but they are extremely devoted and loyal to its family. The dog commonly forms a strong bond with its people especially with the children. Owners of this breed however must realize that a Karakachan Dog is a working breed that is accustomed to staying with the flock outdoors. The breed is not a home dog. It would do best to live in a farm where it will have the great outdoors for its play ground. Being a working breed, the dog is expected to have high exercise requirements. A well socialized Karakachan dog would tolerate smaller pets. *


*So I would say, Yes, the Karakachan breed is quite an aggressive breed...certainly seeing aggression in Valentina even at this young age. Am real glad Cujo is more inclined to be submissive.*


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## Maura

Yes, I know they are aggressive. So think about the likelihood of drawing blood. And, just because she doesn't try to kill Cujo (who is family) doesn't mean she won't take down a bear (like the Bostons).


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## Rock

Fancy story, some people may like that sort of thing.
As a dogman, I have gained 100x more real information about the breed from the log you have been keeping. Your doing a fine job(with the pup and log) , you continue to be Alpha on your place, and the dogs will sort their spots out.


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## motdaugrnds

WOW I consider that quite a compliment coming from you Rock. Thank you.

I enjoy knowing the history behind my little Karakachan. I just hope the American breeders keep the character true by the way they train/socialize their breeders. I also hope those breeding these dogs do not mix their blood with that of other LGDs. Some "mixes" produce some nice dogs; but with this breed being so few in number, I'ld hate to see the USA breeders contribute to their demise.

Update on Valentina.....

Discovered Valentina last night with a slightly swollen eye, blood shot with "white" drainage. (I have no idea how she got hurt.) I couldn't find any evidence of a cut nor any object in the eye. She was so sweet, lying very still while David and I rinsed that eye out with a weak solution of Colloidal Silver. (She seems to know when something serious is going on.) This morning the swelling is gone, the eye looks significantly better and there was very little white drainage.

I've stabilized what they eat and it appears they are both doing quite well with it. I decided on dry food as their base food, i.e. Taste of Wild (non-grain). Then they each get "raw" meat/bone at least once a week, one egg (sometimes raw; sometimes boiled) daily, cheese treats throughout the day each time I catch them (especially Valentina) doing something I like, a daily vitamin and their daily teeth-cleaning bones. As you suggested Maura, Valentina gets Vitamin C (1000 mg ground) twice a week. [I've actually tried to take into account all suggestions that have been made here in this regard as I have been so grateful for them.]

Valentina is now having to cope with a situation she doesn't really like, not getting to be with Cujo whenever she wants. With the weather being so hot/humid, Cujo has been having a rough time, much more so than Valentina. So, we've been letting Cujo in the house during the worse part of each day. The first couple of times we did this, the screen (just a screen hanging over entrance) door is all preventing Valentina from coming into the house with Cujo. She just sits and woof woofs a few times, then decides to go lay down in her favorite cool resting place. The last couple of times we brought Cujo inside, Valentina hasn't even woofed. I especially like doing this because not only does it give Cujo the extra attention he has not been getting since the pup arrived but also because it separates these two. (The goats/fowl like the same cool place Valentina has chosen to rest in.  )


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## motdaugrnds

Update....

Valentina is getting so tall and running as fast as Cujo when they play. She is still eating well (same diet...not changing it). Here is a new picture so you can all see how she is developing.

More than just her size is amazing me. Last night I awoke to a ferocious growling mixed with some barking that I knew was not Cujo. My investigation showed this 5 month old Karakachan standing on the back steps looking out, then up, then out again. (I took the flashlight, walked down the stairs and was investigating the back yard when I heard my washing machine change into the spin cycle ....ROFL.... Valentina started growling and barking again looking out and up and out and up....ROFL) 

What I really liked about this was the way Valentina was standing with tail up and very much alert, though I couldn't help but laugh about her growling at my washing machine. Oh, and this is very important....I have not taught Valentina to "stay" as her short attention span could have jeopardized its success. However, I needed her to sit and stay along beside Cujo to get this picture. After a few tries (without a leash) she did stay while I backed up far enough to snap the picture. How's that for smarts!! (I've been teaching Valentina hand signals that go along with verbal commands. However, I've only used the hand signal to "stay" with Cujo...until now.)


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## Maura

Her coloring, the long legs, she looks like my border collie. 

Where did you get a dose of 1,000 mg of Vitamin C? Just curious. I think I gave my border collie half of that twice a week as a puppy.


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## motdaugrnds

David found it some time back in powdered form. I believe he got it in a health food store.

Thought I'ld show how Valentina is doing with copying Cujo for a hair-combing. David had the camera and it was distracting a bit; however, you can see how happy she is and, even with her short attention span, is doing quite well. (She's much better during a full grooming session where I have her laying on her side and rolling over. Will show that one next time I get a chance to get this video done.)


http://youtu.be/K-G8A2EPDGI


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## sidepasser

That is one happy puppy and I like how much you are working with her. Good dogs take time, they don't just happen overnight and you are investing the time to train and teach Valentina to be a "good" dog. That is very wise since she is going to be a family member for a long time - even though she is a "working girl" lol..

Very pretty puppy that is growing like a weed.


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## Rock

Wow they grow so fast, she is getting some leg under her


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## motdaugrnds

Thought you all might enjoy this new video. This is what David caught on the camera yesterday. He had just finished cleaning out all the water buckets; and it looks as if Valentina thought there was too much water in that pan. ROFL (When she got thru playing in that black pan, she went over to the large blue kiddie pool and put all four feet in that in her attempts to get all that water out. Would have placed that here too except thought this one best because it also showed a young goat near her. I'm real proud of the way she has bonded with the goats.)










<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/m_IkfpNYva8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Well using the "insert image" tag above didn't work, using the "manage attachments" below didn't work and neither did the url showing. (That url was the "embeded" url taken directly off my youtube page.) Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong here? I'ld like to place this video on here instead of the hyperlinked URL like did the last time.

Here is the hyperlink to the video which I did not want to use because I simply wanted to make it more convenient for you to watch this video.

[ame]http://youtu.be/m_IkfpNYva8[/ame]

WOW This is the same type of url I placed in the other post above. Wondering why a video didn't come up there.....


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## CAjerseychick

Shes a pretty girl. I am glad you all are having fun with her-- following your thread with interest as we just got our first LGD puppy and am curious to see how these types of dogs stack up to the rest (we had boxers, a pitt bull, and now a bernese mt dog as well as the schnauzer and this pup)...
LOL about the water, my giant schauzer gal does the same thing (its a little bit of a pain cause we have to keep refilling the bucket)....


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## Rock

Very nice, seems her and that goat have no problems.
If those are ducks I hear in the backround, maybe she sees them paddle there feet in the water?


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## motdaugrnds

Hello CAjerseychick, Thanks for the compliment. She's actually starting to look a little raunchy with hair sticking out around her ears and even between her toes. She is also looking rather thin because she is growing up, up, up. As you can see in that video she is about the same size as that 7 month old Nubian yet Valentina is only 6 months old. CA, what breed is your puppy? Is it the "bernese mt dog" you mentioned?

Yes, Rock, she and the goats actually spend quite a bit of time together. This pleases me no end.  No those are not ducks. We don't have any ducks, though I've been wanting some muscovies. What you're hearing are Brown Chinese Geese and they do, indeed, flap around in those watering pans. I've seen Valentine sit and watch them so maybe she is copying their behavior. ROFL That would not surprise me since I've seen her try to eat the leaf off a tree branch (with the goats) and stand on the step to grab some hay out of the goats' feeder...like the goats. And she certainly copies Cujo's behavior. (If you remember the video I put up here where I was teaching her to let me comb her, she was definately copying Cujo, which helps a great deal.)

Was disappointed in her a few days ago. One of our guineas had managed to hatch 4 keets out and was walking them all over the pasture. The keets were about 4-5 weeks old and one did not keep up. David found it yelling and brought it up to the yard then went to herd the mother guinea to where it was...you just don't walk up to a mother guinea and give her one of her keets unless you want some claws in your face. Well, David had no more than turned his back to go get the mother when both Cujo and Valentina made a lunge for that keet. Valentina reached it first, chomped once and swallowed it. (I wanted to strangle her right then and there!) The rest of the time when the mother guineas are out with their keets and Valentina gets too close, she gets chased away. This time the mother wasn't around.


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## CAjerseychick

motdaugrnds said:


> Hello CAjerseychick, Thanks for the compliment. She's actually starting to look a little raunchy with hair sticking out around her ears and even between her toes. She is also looking rather thin because she is growing up, up, up. As you can see in that video she is about the same size as that 7 month old Nubian yet Valentina is only 6 months old. CA, what breed is your puppy? Is it the "bernese mt dog" you mentioned?
> 
> ....
> 
> Was disappointed in her a few days ago. One of our guineas had managed to hatch 4 keets out and was walking them all over the pasture. The keets were about 4-5 weeks old and one did not keep up. David found it yelling and brought it up to the yard then went to herd the mother guinea to where it was...you just don't walk up to a mother guinea and give her one of her keets unless you want some claws in your face. Well, David had no more than turned his back to go get the mother when both Cujo and Valentina made a lunge for that keet. Valentina reached it first, chomped once and swallowed it. (I wanted to strangle her right then and there!) The rest of the time when the mother guineas are out with their keets and Valentina gets too close, she gets chased away. This time the mother wasn't around.


She is probably starting her adolescent stage, especially with the leg growth and her adult coat growing in etc...
Our LGD pup is 3/4 great pyrenees and 1/4 anatolian shepherd-- its a fairly common LGD cross I see up here and his parents were out on pasture with goats and he was exposed to goats (I am currently looking at goat breeds too)...
Your comment about the keets makes me nervous because we have a flock of free range Jersey Giants and he occasionally makes a playful run at them -- but so far keeps clear when the huge Roo comes running....
He is starting to stay up at night on the back porch with the Bernese mt dog and keep watch over our pasture though ....


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## motdaugrnds

Yes, I hear quite a bit about the mix you have and seems most are happy with them. I'm thinking your free ranging Jersey Giants will probably be seen by that dog as part of her charges; and in time she will be guarding them as she will your goats. (Seems fowl take a little extra training.)

Valentina is certainly trying my patience; so you may be right about her entering some adolescent turmoil. I've had to be extra firm with her when I go thru gates or she will dart ahead of me; and that is just not acceptable.

I have noticed she seems to enjoy pleasing me, especially when I have a bite of food in my hand. ROFL So at least for now food is a motivator. Also is taking in my hugs whereas before she only tolerated them. I can put my arms completely around her with her head up under my chin and she stands very still wagging her tail as she relaxes her head on my arm. That mutual fondness between us feels good, especially since I've had to be extra firm of late.

I did get a bit concerned yesterday when I found one of them, either Valentina or Cujo, had thrown up their Taste of Wild dry dog food. It was still in those chunks, which tell sme they are not chewing them. I'm starting to wonder if I should switch their dry food to something with larger chunks in them so they will have to chew a bit before swallowing. Sure would appreciate some ideas about this...


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## Maura

Big chunks or little chunks don't matter too much. Why are they throwing up? If they run around after eating this can make them upchuck. You want them to run around, go potty, then settle down a bit before feeding, stay settled down a bit after eating.

I think you should train Valentina to always sit in a certain spot at the gates. This will park her. She needs to sit and wait for you to open the gate, wait for you to tell her "in". After she is compliant ten times, close the gate without letting her in. Wait three second, open the gate and tell her "in". Mix it up with sometimes letting her in right away and sometimes making her wait 3 seconds, 10 seconds, 30 seconds, so she will wait patiently longer and longer. This is less about dominance and more about training.


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## CAjerseychick

motdaugrnds said:


> Yes, I hear quite a bit about the mix you have and seems most are happy with them. I'm thinking your free ranging Jersey Giants will probably be seen by that dog as part of her charges; and in time she will be guarding them as she will your goats. (Seems fowl take a little extra training.)
> 
> Valentina is certainly trying my patience; so you may be right about her entering some adolescent turmoil. I've had to be extra firm with her when I go thru gates or she will dart ahead of me; and that is just not acceptable.
> 
> I have noticed she seems to enjoy pleasing me, especially when I have a bite of food in my hand. ROFL So at least for now food is a motivator. Also is taking in my hugs whereas before she only tolerated them. I can put my arms completely around her with her head up under my chin and she stands very still wagging her tail as she relaxes her head on my arm. That mutual fondness between us feels good, especially since I've had to be extra firm of late.
> 
> I did get a bit concerned yesterday when I found one of them, either Valentina or Cujo, had thrown up their Taste of Wild dry dog food. It was still in those chunks, which tell sme they are not chewing them. I'm starting to wonder if I should switch their dry food to something with larger chunks in them so they will have to chew a bit before swallowing. Sure would appreciate some ideas about this...


I usu add a bit of warm water to their chow, so its not so dry, and at least 3 times a week they all get a raw whole egg (shell included) from our hens....
That should help it go down easier...
Pup is doing great-- we are in our last weeks of puppy class (I thought it would be good to just be around other dogs a bit and have me practice just basic basic skills like leash walking, sit, down, stay)-- all my other dogs went thru a few training classes (we lived in town then) and it has not harmed their guarding skills AT all.. but just makes it easier for them to be taken to the vet and my schnauzer can go into town with me and walk at the dog park which is nice....
Interestingly puppy is fairly shy (one reason I took him to class, to draw him out of his shell a bit) and while sweet does not seem overly people focused at all. It was hard to motivate him in class, he would just take a nap. However he is now getting the hang of activities and basic expectations like the sit, down, rudimentary Stay for tidbits etc....
He does loved to be scratched and have belly rubs although doesnt get the concept of snuggles too much (thats ok I have a 120lb Berner cuddle bunny for that he still thinks he is a lap dog)....
I think that is characteristic of the breed crosses he has , plus his parents were not handled a whole lot ....
Anyway its good to hear how your pup is coming along, we will get around to getting a pair of goats sometime soon...we really need the weed eating and am toying with the idea of dairy...


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## motdaugrnds

As usual Maura, your suggestions are right on target. Thank you. Yes, varying the times I have her sit at the gates should help. I will definately start doing this. Also, it was a very hot day and they had both been playing; so maybe that is why the tummy upset. (I've been making sure their dry food was out 3 times a day because of Valentina's age; however, maybe just twice a day now would be better.)

She has apparently learned an important lesson without my even teaching her. At times when I would let Valentina into the garden while I work, she wouldn't want to leave when I was ready to leave. I always say, "Ok, let's go!" and Cujo comes from wherever he is and follows me to the gate. I would have to go after Valentina, leash her and guide her to the gate. So, I started making a big show out of letting Cujo into the garden with me and leaving Valentina out, which she did not like at all. I did this for a couple of weeks. Then decided I'ld give her another try and, though it took a little time to get her to sit and wait until she had permission to come in with me, when it was time to go and I said, "Let's go!" she was as fast as Cujo to comply. 

CA I totally agree that basic training does not harm an LGD. I think it is just fine if some want to keep their LGDs on the wild side, i.e. bonded more with their charges than their owners; however, on small homesteads I think doing so is actually detrimental to the LGD simply because that dog needs to be more social.


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## motdaugrnds

I found this at http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/adoptingrescuedog.htm (It has some great information about choosing a rescue dog too; but this was more connected to what I've been noticing in Valentina.)

"...Refrain from giving the dog hugs and kisses at this time. You have a mission for the day and the more successful you are, the more hugs and kisses you will later be able to give your new friend. To a human a hug is affection. It symbolizes love. For a dog, however, a hug is not love at all; a hug symbolizes dominance and invasion of space. By hugging your dog, you will be invading his space by wrapping your body on top of his before he has gotten the chance to know you and before he has gotten the chance to figure out his place in this new pack. Even if this particular dog does not seem to mind your hugs and kisses, in order to properly ease the dog into their new life you must act like a dog and refrain from your human affection until you communicate some key rules and boundaries to your new family member. This will lessen the stress level for the dog and possibly prevent a bite due to a lack of human-canine communication..."

I recall how Valentina would permit me to hug her; yet it was obvious she was very alert to what I was doing and was NOT taking in the hug. Now, however, that she has found more comfort in what is expected of her here, she is taking in those hugs. I have noticed she looks up at me during this time; yet, if I don't look away, she will turn her eyes away first.


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## Rock

I wouldn't be to upset about the keet.
I think from the dogs point of view, with their mom they belong there. Since I doubt a Guinea will let the dogs get close enough, there is not much of a scent bond like with the goats. So a lone squaker without a mom present may look like an intruder (maybe I'm just sticking up for the pup:shrug


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## BackfourtyMI.

Both of my karakachan's will go after or at least try to get a guinnea here if they go in either of the goat pastures & it makes no difference what I do or say they are both not going to tolerate the guinnea's in with the goats.


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## motdaugrnds

Oh dear, Karie, guineas are real nice to have in with goats for a number of reasons, i.e. finding snakes, eating ticks, cleaning up parasites from any goat droppings...just to mention a few.

However, your Karakachans sound like they are doing exactly what you want them to do, i.e. keeping everything away from your goats. I cannot say enough good things about the karakachans. You are so fortunate to have been able to get a pair! Say, any pictures since they've grown a bit?


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## motdaugrnds

updating......

A couple of new pictures: Here is Valentina resting in one of her favorite shady spots with the goats. (How they all get in there comfortably is beyond me!) Then here she is on the steps...remember how tiny she use to look sitting in back of Cujo? (Seems something has changed!)

I caught Valentina eyeing the baby chickens today. They were with the mother hen and Valentina gave no indication she was going to hurt them; but after she ate the keet, I was cautious. I made a little growling noise from out the window, Valentina looked up at me, then walked away from the chickens.


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## calmgentle

I absolutely love the way she's sitting on the steps! She's beautiful too.

Karen Bailey
Calm & Gentle Dairy Goat Farm


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## Maura

My Irish setter was quite tall and sat on furniture like that. Glad you got a picture of it.


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## motdaugrnds

Updating .........

I'm seeing Valentina do things I'm not sure she should be doing. She is roaming with the goats in the pasture, which is fine. She will sit on the hill and watch them graze, which is fine. She will even play with them "nicely" at times, which is fine too. However, I've seen her sit on the hill looking out over the pasture when the goats were in the barn. And I've seen her walking around in the pasture when the goats were on the other side or in the yard. Now the reason this concerns me is because I've seen Cujo do the same thing and Cujo is a hunter. (At times Cujo and Valentina will walk around in the pasture together and, if they find guinea eggs, they both eat those.)

Cujo will often sit on top of the hill and watch out over the pasture, then will make a mad dash to catch whatever he sees. At such times Valentina does not follow him in the chase. However, should he bring back a baby rabbit, morning dove (once even a squirrel), then she gets interested in what he has.

Now I know Valentina copies Cujo in some things and maybe it is ok for him to teach her how to hunt. I just don't know. (We have a mother hen running around with baby chickens Valentina does not bother; so I trust her with our fowl. Except for that one time she grabbed a keet that was away from its mother she has not harmed any of our animals).

Should I be concerned about Valentino's behavior?


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## Maura

I'm guessing you want Valentina to be so bonded with the goat that she never leaves them. She has also bonded with Cujo. Cujo being another dog, she is going to prefer Cujo's company, especially since he has been such a good uncle dog. Valentina will still protect the goats.

When they are atop the hill, they are kings of the meadow. They can see all around. Cujo wants to hunt things, but I think Valentina would already be showing signs of stalking behavior and out sniffing on her own. If you've ever had a dog bred for hunting, you'd know that sniffing and stalking are paramount activities. Valentina is learning that this perch gives her a great view of the area, or at least that side of the barn and if she suspects something is in that general direction, she will run up the hill to get a good view. This would allow her to intercept a predator before it got to the goats.


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## motdaugrnds

Yes I believe that is what she's doing, Maura. She is definately venturing out all over the pasture, sometimes with the goats near and sometimes on her own with only the guineas and geese with her and the goats up in the yard. She looks like she's sniffing around the bushes; and I suspect at times she finds guinea eggs out thre. (She loves raw eggs, shells and all.)

I have no doubt she has bonded with the goats...and all the fowl. (You should have seen her with the baby chickens today. It was wonderful to see her just walking among them without any sign of hurting them.)

What I'm seeing more often now is Valentina on her own out in the pasture. Often Cujo is laying around the house. 

As for stalking behavior, I've seen Valentina demonstrate that when she and Cujo are playing. She acts like she is sneaking up to get him and then pounces on him to play. I've not seen her do this with either the goats or the fowl..just Cujo.

I have been wondering if Karakachans hunt for food. It seems that might actually be a natural thing for any dog to do....even the ones fed like mine. I've not seen her chase a rabbit, though she will watch Cujo do so. Then want what he brings up.


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## Maura

Hunting involves seven sequential steps. Let's see if I can remember them.
Alerting, deciding to go for it, stalking, kill bite/shake, eating. All dogs have the eat part. Not all dogs can put together killing and eating because they have not learned that a rabbit is food. Not all dogs will deliver the bite or bite and shake. Not all dogs will stalk, though most will chase.


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## motdaugrnds

Well, I've seen Cujo do all those. As yet I have not seen Valentina do it all. Valentina does sit on top of the knoll looking over the pasture and is quite alert to what is going on; however, if something moves out there, she does not make a mad rush toward it like Cujo does. (And Cujo only does this if it is something other than one of our fowl or goats.) Valentina gets interested in it only if Cujo brings it back.

I did discover something really nice this morning as I was milking. I saw one guinea fly by squaking and a few minutes saw another fly by squaking. When the 3rd came by squaking, I quit milking to go find out what was occurring.

[This morning I had separated the goats so the one who eats slowly can eat by herself in the entrance to the barn. Some of our guineas had chosen to sleep in the trees last night; so they were out of the house already and eager for their daily supply of cracked corn...of course they'll eat anything they can find in what the goats are eating.]

As I looked out to see what was causing the guineas to fly around squaking, I see Valentina sitting...just sitting calmly...in the middle of the entrance to the barn facing off the guineas. Faith (the slow-eating goat) was enjoying her grain. It became instantly obvious that Valentina had chased the guineas away from Faith's grain and was keeping them away while Faith ate. WOW!! She had decided to do that on her own as neither David nor I had taught her to protect a goat's food.

Here is a new picture of Valentina (and Cujo of course) so you can see how she is still growing. You can see she is getting a more mature look about her face. I really like how soft her coat is and how healthy they both are. They are doing real well on that Taste of the Wild dry food. (I get the byson and the salmon and mix them.)

Oh and, when I give them both their week's raw bone/meat, Cujo eats his now and will not let Valentina have it anymore. ROFL (About time!)


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## BackfourtyMI.

OK, you asked for updated pictures so here they are. Sorry if I went a little overboard with the camera.


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks Katie. I did see your pups' pictures on your thread; but I cannot get enough of these Karakachans. Just looking at your little man's face, it is so obvious he is intelligent.  I turned your lady's picture around as I thought it looked better that way. HeHe

That is the way it is with my little Karakachan.....Did I say "little"? I cannot honestely call her little anymore. She is as large as Cujo now. I just realized I don't have a picture of Valentina standing up...must get one.


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## BackfourtyMI.

Thanks for turning my picture, I didn't know how to do that. I have some of my male standing on his hind feet & he's almost as tall as I am now & I'm 5' 8.
They are very smart & good dogs.


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## motdaugrnds

I use Paint Shop Pro for my graphics. I just click "image" > "rotate" until it is upright.


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## motdaugrnds

updating...........

Well Valentina is now 8 months of age. I'm noticing a different puppy! She is demonstration more caution, is a little jumpy at new noises, has actually humped Cujo and, in general, appears confused at times. 

I do know I'm contributing to her confusion because of what I'm attempting to teach her, i.e. the subtleties of appropriate behavior. Example: She does not chase the fowl. She has been discouraged from "playing" with fowl since we brought her home. She has no prey drive at all that I can tell. However, with that being said, here is the present situation I need to deal with.

The situation is when the chickens, guineas and geese want food I'm feeding to others. If Cujo or Valentina is not on the back porch, the chickens will sneak up and eat their dog food. I've taught Cujo to get them off the back deck and he does that by running at them and they go flying off the porch. The chickens do not even go up there if they see him there. However, Valentina sits and lets them eat the dog food; so I've been "shushing" the chickens away from the food and, when Cujo hears this shushing, he comes a running to chase the chickens away. Valentina sits there looking confused.

The other morning I actually thought Valentina understood and was helping because I caught her facing off some guineas who were after the goat's food. She actually sent 3 of these guineas flying. However, this morning it was a totally different story. I saw her and Cujo sitting just outside the barn letting the geese eat Faith's (my slow-eating Nubian doe) food right out of her pan. When I did my "shushing" noises, Cujo ran at the geese, pouncing on one and knocking her over. Valentina did not run at the geese; however, she got excited when Cujo knocked that goose over. She ac;tually ran after that goose.... grrrrr She stopped when I called her name and gave her my "uh uh" growl; however, this was obviously a confusing situation for her.

I'm thinking Valentina has entered one of the LGD developmental stages and I'm needing to help her get thru it. Can anyone speak to this, sharing how such situations were dealt with?


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## Maura

I think I would feed the dogs twice a day and only put in as much food as they will eat. After I put out feed for the goats I'd toss some grain out for the poultry, making them run far and wide to collect it. Otherwise, I might have Valentina lay down in front of the goat's food pan in the hope it would keep the birds away.


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## motdaugrnds

Maura, when I feed the goats most of the fowl are still up as I don't let them out until after the goats have had a bit of time to eat. This morning, all I had to do was point to the back steps where the dogs' food dishes were and tell Cujo "food". He made a quick dash to his food dish and shushed the fowl away from it. Valentina sat watching, then came over to where I was standing in the entrance to the barn where my slow eater was still nibbling on her grain. Valentina and I stood there until the goat was thru. So I think with time all will work out.

I have now created a small eBook about these first stages of Valentina's growth. I uploaded it to Amazon Kindle Bookstore for anyone interested. I connected to a KDB "select" for 90 days; so I cannot advertise it during those 3 months; however, it will be available for purchase at Kindles in less than 24 hours. 

Valentina is still looking rather confused and is slower to respond as though she is uncertain about things she use to act quickly about. So I'm still watching her closely.


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...........

Yep, Valentina is definately in heat at 8 months of age. (I saw spotting a short while earlier when she would sit. Now I have no seen any blood but her vulva is swollen, she is flagging and Cujo cannot leave her alone for long.) Last night I kept him in the house; and, each time I awoke, there he was with his head on my bed asking to get out.

Today I locked Cujo up in one section of the barn that has a large pen attached so he can exercise. Remember how Valentina tested her escape skills the first few days she was home? Well, now Cujo is practicing his. David and I have had to reinforce a variety of places already; and tonight (to play it safe while I get some sleep) I attached a heavy-duty chain to his collar. (David has already gone out once to free him. He ran out in the pen and peed; then David chained him again. David says he will go out again later tonight to do the same thing because Cujo had not had a bowel movement.)

Valentina is a sweetheart! She is slow to come when called and seems to be deciding whether or not she wants to; however, she does. She has gone out to be with Cujo 3-4 times today, the rest of the time laying around as though she has little energy. 

I suspect she has about 2 more weeks during which I need to make sure she is not bred; and I sure am dreading these weeks. (I'm giving her a little extra attention by taking her on walks and teaching her some of the "heel" moves I use to teach my German Shepherds, i.e. sharp turns, circles, etc. I will be teaching her to "stay" and maybe a few hand signals during those 2 weeks too; so maybe all will go ok.)

It is Cujo I'm feeling badly for!  Valentina is such a flirt!


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## motdaugrnds

updating..........

OMG Now I'm finding my little Karakachan is circling the pen where I have Cujo locked up in an attempt to find ways she can help him escape. (I'm wishing I had already created a small escape-proof kennel somewhere on my place.)


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## Maura

Dogs have a special howl to tell the other guys that a babe is attractive. Dogs ten miles away know about Valentina. A woman I know told me this trick to keep unwanted males away (I've only had males, no females). They would tap some pepper on the spots left by the babe. The males sniff that, then can't smell anything, forget why they came by, go home. It's kinder than a bullet and better than puppies.


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## motdaugrnds

I am definately learning that "special howl" as Valentina practices it often!

I can watch her every few minutes throughout the day; however, I've been bringing Valentina into the house for most of the night hours. (She was very reluctant to come into the house initially; then cautiously visited each room I allowed her to. At night I lean a little plastic gate across my bedroom door and Valentina stays in that room until I let her out.) I let her go outside 1-2 times in the middle of the night, then bring her back in...mostly so I can get some sleep.

The last couple of days (and nights) I've been able to relax quie a bit. Cujo no longer tries to get out of the pin and is now eating good again and carrying his ball around wanting to play. So his interest in Valentina has subsided quite a bit. Valentina is still howling but not as much. She is eating good and has been showing more energy than I've seen in these past few weeks. 

Valentina will run as fast as she can all around the various objects in the yard then come and pounce on her little feet with a bark. Of course I cannot chase her like Cujo use to. So I'm seeing her do this with the goats. This morning I took a package out to the mail box. Valentina and the goats followed me and the entire time Valentina ran as fast as she could, circled me and the goats, then get about 4 ft near a goat and bounce on her front feet. Of course no goat follows her; so that play goes nowhere. However, it is real nice to see her energy level is back.

Valentina is no longer looking like a puppy, though she is still looking vulnerable to me. She still appears to be confused and is hesitant to comply with commands I give her. She does comply, but it takes awhile as though she is thinking whether or not she wants to. I know she must continue to be obedient, yet I don't want to thwart her decision making process as I believe that ability to think and consider what she does before she does it is a real valuable asset in an LGD.


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## motdaugrnds

Update.....
I'm seeing quite a difference in Valentina now. (Cujo has settled down a lot, is keeping fowl away from his own food dish and is eating good. I often play with him inside that pin as he loves his ball! And he still gets his morning bone for his teeth and raw foods along.) With Cujo not being out running around distracting her, Valentina spends more time with the goats and appears to be more alert to what I'm wanting her to do.

Each morning's ritual is finding Valentina staying near the entrance to the barn, keeping fowl away from Faith's grain dish. Her presence, alone, deters them now; and if she has wondered a few feet away and the fowl go in to get some grain, Valentina runs up and pounces on her front feet at them. They scatter and she sits down to watch as they run and/or fly out. (Once one flew up and sat on the top of the gate. Valentina barked at her until she flew out.)

Each "late" night has her out calling males to come see how attractive she is; and this is when I call her to come into the house. She is reluctant to do so, is obviously thinking about whether or not she want to comply, then slowly meanders over to me. I place the tie of my old housecoat around her collar and she follows me into the house without problems. Prior to doing this, her bed has been placed in my bedroom; and once she's inside, she is told "Go to bed." Then a little 2 ' plastic gate is leaned up against the inside of my door. Valentina lets me know she does not like this with a little woof and complaint; however, I walk away. In the middle of the night she will let me know she wants outside by woofing softly; so I get up and remove the plastic gate. (I do this because I want Valentina to know I do hear when she talks and that I respect her needs.)Then I let her outside, using the same method I always use when letting her in thru any gate on the place, i.e. she sits and waits for me to either go thru first OR an "ok go on". She rarely howls anymore the rest of the night; so I've been letting her stay out. 

Thus, the subtleties now of our governing rules are becoming more clear to her. She is literally having to think about what she is to do as well as when and how she is to do it. It is so obvious in her face. I am seeing a dog now that is thinking for herself while enjoying pleasing. (Part of what I've been doing with her during this heat cycle is to put her thru a little obedience training. She has learned to follow near my legs without getting in the way of where I walk and she has learned to stay while I walk quite a distance from her. Next comes the hand signals.  )

I saw something different yesterday evening that might be of interest. Valentina was playing with the goats. She does this by running around them, then charging and pouncing on her front feet right in front of them. This time one of the older does butted at her and Valentina dropped like a piece of lead right down onto her belly...not in a frightened position, not even a "laying down" position as her feet were directly under her where she could move quickly if she wanted. However, she stayed like that until that doe moved away, then Valentina got up and started her running again. The impression I got from this little event was that Valentina has learned to RESPECT the goats as much as they've learned to respect her. This pleases me to no end!


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## CAjerseychick

Oh she is maturing into a beautiful dog, a love her deep brown eyes.... Sounds like her heat, and your training is going well ( I wish I had more assertive goats, mine are too frightened to do anything to set limits with the dogs) ....


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## motdaugrnds

CA I had a Toggenburg who was like that. She was 2 yrs old when I got her, had deformed ribs and walked on her pasturns. She would stand outside the barn peeking around the corner watching the other goats eat. Then she would make a mad rush in, grab a mouth full of hay and rush out again. She definately would not assert herself around the dogs I had at that time, which were Apache and Cherokee who were both quite active.

The way I dealt with this Togg was to put a collar on her; and when I fed the others their hay, I literally walked her into the barn right up to the feeder bin and stood between her and the other goats. She slowly learned to eat while standing there, though it took awhile. After a few months she felt so good about herself that, should one of the dogs run in my direction, she would get right in front of me facing them off. (I also found her teaching her kids how to raise up on their hind feet and come down to butt.)

Were I in your situation with assertive dogs and timid goats, I would probably solicit David's help and, with my tending the goats (one at a time) and David tending the dogs (one at a time), I would teach the goats how to defend themselves against the dogs and teach the dogs to respect the goats. Oh yes, it can be done; however, it does take some dedication to the training as it is not something done over night.

Thanks for the compliment. I look at that picture of Valentina's head and see eyes that appear to be looking right thru me....She is so very sensitive that I wonder if she borders on telepathy.


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## motdaugrnds

Updating.....

Just trimmed Valentina's toenails again. It has gotten to where she will lay down on her side while I sit up next to her belly. Then I can trim toenails on both front feet (on one side of me) and on both back feet (on the other side of me). This sure makes trimming nails easy.

Valentina is apparently thru her heat cycle. She has stopped her funny howling and Cujo is more interested in his food and his ball than in her. I'm not real sure when to let Cujo out. I know he's so tired of being locked up; however, it only takes a few minutes to undo all this protective maneuvering I've been doing for weeks now....


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## motdaugrnds

Update.........

I received more information from a friend about a dog's heat cycle. I thought some may be interested in this; so will state it below.

The LGD's heat cycle, as all dogs, runs 21 days. It begins with blood spotting that gets more red. At that time she goes into "standing heat" which lasts approximately 10 days. (Most breeders place their dogs together on the 3rd day as well as the 6th day.) It is during these 10 days that a female will let a male mount her; and even if she is not ovulating at the time, that male's sperm can stay active for a good 10 days, which extends the time of acceptance. One can tell when "standing heat" is over by running one's hand down the back of that female and over her bottom. If she does NOT raise her tail up and to the side (and if she did not push her bottom toward your hand), the standing heat period is over. (Now don't be fooled by this because some males will be aggressive enough to breed her after this anyway and some females have been known to become pregnant from such a late breedin.)

I did this test on Valentina and her tail did NOT come up and to the side nor did she push her bottom toward my hand. I also checked her vagina and it is no longer swollen. David let Cujo out! 

David and I watched the two dogs to see what they would do, ready to grab Cujo and put him back into that pen. Cujo was not even intereted in Valentina. He was so happy to get out that she was the last thing on his mind. Valentina was so happy to see Cujo out that she followed him around a bit until she accepted the fact he was not going to play with her. Then she turned her attention elsewhere. Both dogs have been together now for over 12 hours. I've seen them play together, eat together and rest together. No signs whatsoever of either dog being sexually interested in the other. Whew! Finally I got Valentina thru this first full heat cycle without mishaps! I am so grateful!!!


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## motdaugrnds

....update.......

Just gave Valentina and Cujo their raw ribs today with each getting one whole side of a large goat we processed earlier. (Remember how Cujo would guard his until Valentina had eaten all the meat off her own, then Cujo would let Valentina have his and go over and finish up the bone she had left?) Well, this time Valentina finished hers and looked over at Cujo's. He was not ready to eat his; but his growl let her know she wasn't getting any of it....quite a change! (I suspect he may want to buy his as that is often what he has done with rabbits he catches.) I'll be keeping an eye on this situation.


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## motdaugrnds

....update.......

Just gave Valentina and Cujo their raw ribs today with each getting one whole side of a large goat we processed earlier. (Remember how Cujo would guard his until Valentina had eaten all the meat off her own, then Cujo would let Valentina have his and go over and finish up the bone she had left?) Well, this time Valentina finished hers and looked over at Cujo's. He was not ready to eat his; but his growl let her know she wasn't getting any of it....quite a change! (I suspect he may want to bury his as that is often what he has done with rabbits he catches.) I'll be keeping an eye on this situation.


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## Maura

Sounds like Valentina has lost her puppy card.


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## motdaugrnds

ROFL Yes, Maura, Valentina is no longer a puppy and Cujo well knows it. I'm real glad they are still fond of each other.

Updating................

Last night I saw for myself what I would define as Valentina's FIRST action as an LGD! 

The weather has been real cold with a good 1" of ice caked on all watering pans that were not heated. Both dogs have been curling up on a large supply of old blankets on the back porch and/or curling up in a hole they made in the straw bedding inside the barn near the goats. Still, I hear both dogs running and playing together during late evenings; so the cold isn't bothering them too much.

Last night both were laying on their bedding on the back porch when I heard quick movement, a ferocious growling and a mad rush down the steps. I grabbed the flashlight to see what it was all about as all that was quite different than anything I'd heard before. As I shined the light out toward the barn, I saw the goats coming from behind the barn as Valentina (not Cujo) was charging past them to get to the area from which they were coming. There she stopped her growling and started her barking (with howls). I whistled and in a short time Valentina came running back looking as though she had just done something she really enjoyed. (I have no idea what the predator was; only know this time of year they are looking for anything easy to get to eat.)

I, of course, praised Valentina and gave her (and Cujo for just being Cujo...ROFL) one of her favorite treats. Both dogs then went to bed and the rest of the night was quiet.


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## motdaugrnds

There are some changes in Valentina's behavior now in that it has become obvious she sees herself as more than just a playful pup.

I often see her laying on the highest part of our acreage looking out at whatever is browsing at the time. Early mornings when the goats are eating their grain, she lays in the back yard watching the slow goat eat; and when fowl get near, she moves toward them....they leave Faith's grain alone when they see Valentina move in their direction. (At these times, Cujo is sitting on the back steps keeping the chickens from going up to his and Valentina's food, which is kept on the back porch.)

Her play is different too. Cujo can run faster than Valentina....at least he can at this time....and when they play together, he grabs her tail. She inturn will jump on top of his head and grab his ears. Thus, Valentina is learning how to run faster and evade whatever is after her by making sharp turns; and her courage is not dampened when she loses. She simply rests a bit, then gets up and starts the play-fight all over again. (I really enjoy seeing her courage...and Cujo's tolerance.)

At this time I'm considerng getting Cujo neutered as I don't want him to breed Valentina the next time she comes into heat. I'm also considering getting a male Karakachan "puppy" (12+ weeks old this time) as I do want to breed Valentina once and I'd like her to have help should she ever be faced with more than one predator at a time. Not sure this would ever happen and did see Cujo attack a stray that got onto our place a few years back....just thinking right now as to what might be the best thing to do for both dogs............


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## Maura

Neutering Cujo would seem to be easier than keeping them separate. Rather than getting a puppy and breeding him with Valentina, you should really start looking at Karakachan studs. You need a sire that balances Valentina's faults. You are only going to find that in an adult. The male should be sound conformationally as well as personality wise. If you want to purchase the male, that's fine, but it's important that you breed best to best, and fault to virtue.


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks Maura, I've been talking with breeders about studs; however, they are not that keen on it. (Reasons being given are that their "studs" might see my girl as an intruder and harm her.) I'm really wanting another Karakachan anyway; and after the first breeding, I would neuter him as well as Valentina as I don't want to be a breeder. This, of course, means I don't need to consider the traits of their offspring so much as the trait of the male that would be helping Valentina guard our animals. I'm still thinking hard about all this! (Don't want to breed Valentina until she is at least 2 yrs old anyway.)

....updating

Was outdoors this morning watching Cujo and Valentina play. It is real exciting as Valentina is now "faking out" Cujo by pretending to head in one direction, then heading in another. This gives her a head start on the running; and though at times Cujo still catches her, this morning there were more times than not when she actually out ran him. Then her pride in herself was so evident I had to laugh!

[The way I always play with Cujo is to "fake him out" as to which direction I'm going to throw his favorite ball. At those times Valentina has just stood and watched. Now I suspect she has learned from me this time and has decided, if he is going to chase her instead of the ball, she needed a head start. ROFL .... Oh no, I would not put that idea beyond the possibilities of this dog!]

It has gotten now that I can rely on Valentina's alertness. She was bothered by something in the woods this morning; so before I let the fowl out, I stood and watched in the direction she was looking. (She had run behind the barn in the same direction earlier, then went to the fencing in front of the barn next to where the chicken house was and stood there watching the same wooded area; so I knew something was out there.) Yep, there was a rather large animal moving in those woods and it was very quiet. I could not see it plain enough to identify it; so I suspect, as quiet as it was, it was probably a fox. Sure like the way this Karakachan is developing!


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## Maura

Valentina is a smart girl. She is so lucky to have such a good pal.

If you were to breed her to an outside stud, they could meet on neutral property. She is unlikely to have one puppy, and you will have to find homes for the rest of the litter. When you breed one litter, you are a breeder, so do the best you can.


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## motdaugrnds

Then a 1-time breeder I shall be as I do want Valentina bred once; and I want her bred to another full Karakachan so as to maintain the integrity of the breed. (If my plans work out, this breeding will take place sometime next year.)

Something occurred yesterday that I thought I'd share as it relaxed me a bit......after the fact. (I have seen Cujo get ferocious with a "dog" that wondered onto our place a few years back; however, have not seen him angry since; so was thinking he might not help Valentina should the need arise....until yesterday.)

A couple of strangers came to talk with me about what I would need to do in order to turn my processing center into an area that I could "legally" slaughter American Guinea Hogs for possible sale to local markets. Both dogs headed toward the front gate when they saw the car park there, with Valentina stopping to stay in the front yard. Then the 2 men got out of their car and everything changed. Cujo started running with a growl I've not heard in some time....Valentina started running, but made no sound. I started up toward the gate to let the men in; however, before I could get close enough to give the dogs instructions to "settle down", Cujo growled even louder. Valentina looked over at Cujo, then looked at the 2 men and let out a very loud bark followed by a lengthy growl....This surprised me!

I did managed to get Cujo to settle down, held Valentina's collar and let the 2 men in, fastening the gate behind me and warning them not to try and pet the dogs. This seemed to settle both dogs down a bit as their barking/growling ceased. However, Valentina followed us all the way to the processing center with her head lowered. (The 2 men were skittish!) We had to pass the barn where the goats were at that time. The 3 of us went inside the processing center and Valentina sat just outside the entrance gate watching. 

Turns out modifying the processing center would not be cost effective; so I started walking the men back to the front gate when the goats came out of the barn for pets. Cujo was sitting up in the back yard watching the whole thing; however, Valentina was staying real close to us and several times looked as though she were going to quietly nip one in the leg as they passed the barn where the goats were standing. Intinctively I loudly said "hey" and Valentina looked up at me, then I motioned for her to get in the back yard, which she did. Cujo then decided it was time for him to make a presence; so he came over and walked with me as I walked the men up to the front gate. Of course, that gave Valentina permission to return and follow us up there as well...still with her head lowered.

Now I've seen guard dogs protect many times; yet I've not seen one walk like Valentina did for such a distance with her head lowered like she did. I know it kept the 2 men uneasy as it kept me uncertain as to what she was "thinking" of doing.

All in all, I felt good after the men drove off knowing nothing drastic occurred!


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## Maura

It is _good_ to have well trained dogs. You might want to have a few training sessions with them at the gate. Teach them where they need to sit patiently and to wait for further instructions. Head down usually means stalking. It's not friendly and if you had a place to send Valentina to you could worry less. If you are going to the house you could send her to the porch. If going to the barn you could send her to the barn door, that sort of thing. She can still see what is going on and react if necessary, but it would keep her in control.


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## motdaugrnds

Oh, I do like that idea of "sending" the dogs off to stay somewhere, especially since Valentina likes to stay with the goats in the barn anyway. Thanks for suggesting this. I shall now start teaching them both such commands so, when other strangers show up, I can stop worrying so much. 

Valentina is obviously going thru her adolescents and is slow to respond to my commands. She always has so far; however, it is so clear she is wondering whether or not she wants to and "when". EXAMPLE of one recent hurdle: I keep the whole and cracked corn for the fowl inside the woodshed, which is locked off from the goats/dogs. When I open the door to get in there Valentina use to make a mad rush into the woodshed; however, practicing what Maura had suggested awhile back, she now sits at the door waiting for me to give her permission to enter. I often wait until I'm a bit inside, then look back to let her (and Cujo) know I'm aware they want in. Then I tell them it is "ok, come on in", which they quickly do. Then when I start to leave, I say "ok, let's go"; and out they both come. However, she takes time first to look around a bit before following this order; and I take time to let her think before complying, which has taught me patience I needed. *(I never repeat the command and she keeps her eye on what I'm doing, i.e. am I shutting the door on her? ROFL)* Thus, her adolescence is apparently going quite well and she still enjoys thinking while complying....knock on wood. 

Next step...."to the barn"! ROFL


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## Maura

You might try using treats and rewarding good behavior, just to keep her interested. You don't want her not listening to you and it's going to happen. Don't treat every time, but maybe take two or three for each of them and work on their skills. Even my super biddable border collie had an adolescence.


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## motdaugrnds

I just experienced what some may call the "alpha roll"! (I'm still shaking from this event!)

I was indoors when I heard one of my chickens sounding disturbed. Looking out I saw Valentina chasing a rooster who was running around to the back side of the barn. I got to the back door and slammed it as I exited, knowing both dogs usually come running when they hear this door shut. Here comes Valentina up from behind the barn. I "growled" as, again, I heard a distressed chicken behind the barn. As I stepped back inside to get my coat and boots on, I saw Valentina heading toward the back of the barn. 

Once outside, I too headed toward the back of the barn, seeing Valentina chasing the rooster. By the time I got to the back, Valentina had that rooster cornered and was too attentive to it. I was about 15 ft from those two when I started growling loudly....

Valentina came immediately to me. I growled again loudly as I confronted her with a glare. Valentina laid down on her side submissively and looked just like she was the underdog in an alpha roll, though I had not touched her. I growled as I put one hand on her throat and the other on her hip. She was not looking frightened but was definately aware this was a serious matter. After staying that way for 30-60 seconds, I left her there and went over to pick up the rooster. 

The rooster was not at all hurt, just frightened. I carried it back around the barn to the goose door near the chicken house with Valentina following me the entire time. She stood watching me as I placed that rooster's head thru the goose door and the rooster go on in to safety. I looked at Valentina and it was so obvious she was alert to what I had done. I growled again. She was sensitive to my growl though not frightened by it. I went on into the house where my own emotions could settle.

I know Valentina is going thru her adolescents; so this situation was not totally unexpected. What I really liked about it was the way Valentina responded to my authority....whew....She weighs almost as much as Cujo now and is certainly as large!


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## Maura

You wanted her to leave the rooster alone. She did, and you continued to growl at her. She was then confused. Dogs are in the extreme present. In her mind, you were growling at her for just standing there. Next time this happens, when she stops doing the evil deed, praise her for stopping the bad behavior.

Doesn't she know 'leave it'? You should be able to tell her leave it to call her off. I would go outside and play 'leave it' with her. Give her a treat every time she backs off from the rooster or any other object you tell her to.


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## CAjerseychick

Our 8 month old has killed 3 chickens including my Roo about 6 weeks ago.... similar stage-- i didnt catch him in the act (he was mouthing the dying Roo) but repremanded him for having it and he dropped it immediately...

So I can relate and am following this turn of events....


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks Maura, I do believe I overdid my growling in this situation. Will know better next time. (I do need to practice that "leave it". I have never tried it before because she really hasn't done anything I would need to practice it with. Guess I can practice it with a piece of wood or whatever I find her playing with.)


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## Maura

Leave it is really handy when there is something interesting that you don't know what it is, or you know it is something bad. When training for this, once she gets it, work her with safe objects and food. When she leaves it alone, you pick up the object, examine it, then have her "take".


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## Squeaky McMurdo

Been enjoying this thread. The hubby and I have been talking seriously about moving to Alaska so we can have more land and live a more sustainable lifestyle. That would mean bears and wolves would be a threat to my goats and other animals, so I have been looking into LGDs. From what you have said, Karakachans are bred to deal with those animals and I had never heard of the breed before wo plan to look into them more!

You could practice Leave It with her bone. It's something she would REALLY want so you could be certain that once she masters leaving that, she'll leave just about anything


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## motdaugrnds

Will do! Thanks Maura.

Today was rather bad and the goats did not want to venture out much, though the fowl all did. I saw Valentina eyeing the fowl, especially the buff rooster she had cornered recently; and I growled at her. She looked at me and then back at the rooster. I then followed my growl with an uh-uh. Again she looked at me and back at the rooster. Then she walked in my direction instead of the direction of that rooster. This gave me an opportunity to praise her. Golly, she is sooooo smart! (I'm thinking the time she was at the rooster, she was simply bored and wanted to play. Still, it was not an ok way for her to play and it appears that one time correction worked very well. She is still in adolescents; so I don't really trust her and will still be watching closely.)


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## Squeaky McMurdo

I kind of wonder if the rooster did as roosters do and attacked her or one of the other animals...she might have even seen him mating a hen that wasn't happy about it. Lol

So perhaps she is justified in her concern, but not in her response to it.


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## motdaugrnds

Squeaky, you are out for a great adventure in Alaska; and you're certainly right about the Karakachan being a great LGD. Be careful, though, and make sure you get a pure bred one! I can get you some contacts if you want.

As for the rooster, I have two very large ones who are as friendly as a fowl can be; so I know it did not attack my dog. And Valentina has never once tried to break up a fight (or any mating rituals) of fowl or goats. (I did have a GS that thought it was her job to do so; and it was quite frustrating when she would break up matings, though comical as well. She would run at them and nose them if necessary, then back off and watch to make sure they did not resume. ROFL)

.....all day today Valentina left the fowl alone, walking amongst them and sleeping with them near; so hopefully, this concern will not be one anymore....am still going to practice that "leave it" (with her coveted raw meat/bone) as I've little doubt I may need it in the future for something.


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## GraceAlice

motdaugrnds, I have a question. You contacted me a long time ago on two different sites asking about Anatolians and where you could purchase one. Well, what made you pick this breed instead? I'm just curious.


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## motdaugrnds

Hello GraceAlice,
I probably did contact you last year sometime as I was looking at Anatolians, Sarplanians, Akbash & Yangals too. I chose the Karakachan because of its ability to actually *go to war with humans* while also keeping large predators like bears away from its charges. Since my homestead is rather small (only 6 acres), I didn't need an LGD that needed a lot of acreage to roam/patrol. Also, the Karakachan is rather an *endangered breed* and I wanted to help preserve it.

I'm real happy with Valentina in so many ways, though am still learning as she is going thru adolescents right now. She loves it here and not once has she tried to go under or over our fencing, though she did "sneak" thru the goose door a few times while she was a puppy. Also, she and Cujo are the best of pals. She is also extremely good with my Nubians; and despite the episode with the buff rooster (and a lone keet awhile back), she has been very good with the fowl as well.


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## GraceAlice

Well awesome! I'm so glad you are happy with her, she is very cute. 

We ended up getting an Anatolian and a Pyrenees Anatolian mix. I love, love, love these dogs. I would be worried about getting into an endangered breed, I feel like there would be less info about them? But I'm weird like that, lol


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## Squeaky McMurdo

They sound like a great dog, but thinking about it further, with a rare breed, I would feel almost obligated to keep it intact and breed it.

Going to start a new thread because Anatolians have been peeking my interest


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## motdaugrnds

Squeaky, from the research I did on Anatolians, they are great dogs and may fit your needs real well. Hope you find one. 

...updating....

David brough tin a deer last night and this morning I was able to give some of its meat to the dogs. I laid some in each of their dishes while they "sit" to watch me and get the ok to eat. Boy did they both want that fresh meat!! I had to remind both of them to stay in a sitting position several times. Then I stood back and just watched them. You should have seen Valentina as she could not take her eyes off me...anticipating my telling her when it was ok to "take it". After at least a full 60 seconds, I called Cujo by name first and told him to "take it" while pointing to his dish. He started eating rapidly...probably hoping he could finish in time to get Valentina's too. ROFL

Then I looked at Valentina and pointed at her dish as I told her to "take it". She was eager and there was no way Cujo was going to get any of hers. ROFL

Now I know this could be quite different if that fresh meat had been something Valentina had already been eating..........


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## crabtree

I do not know how to start a new thread.
But I wanted to let you know Mother Earth New(MEN) is looking for stories on 
Guard Animals.
I do not have these animals, thought you would have some really good ones.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/home...tm_term=SLCS eNews&utm_campaign=02.12.14 SLCS


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## aart

crabtree said:


> I do not know how to start a new thread.
> But I wanted to let you know Mother Earth New(MEN) is looking for stories on
> Guard Animals.
> I do not have these animals, thought you would have some really good ones.
> http://www.motherearthnews.com/home...tm_term=SLCS eNews&utm_campaign=02.12.14 SLCS


 Someone else started a new thread about the article.....you can see it here.


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## motdaugrnds

Hello everyone, Thought I would bite the bullet and take the time to tell all why I'm no longer updating this thread ... nor posting on any forums.

Trouble in my home and all *my* work on *my* computer got deleted from the hardrive...as a punishment for cleaning porn off it. I'm attempting to rectify the situation in my home; but may not be able to for awhile. I'm sorry about letting this saga go; however, just looking at *my* computer now brings only a feeling of pain. Maybe sometime in the future I can return to these forums I've enjoyed and benefitted from in so many ways. I truly admire so many of you and will miss you all terribly....I won't be posting this information anywhere else.


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## Maura

I am truly sorry you are having problems. Go to a church or someplace please and get whatever help is needed.


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## aart

I'm so sorry you're having troubles.....wishing you the best of strength and resources to conquer it quickly.


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## Lucky S Ranch

Is there anything that you have done so far that you feel may have been a mistake?

Anything you have done differently?


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## Moboiku

motdaugrnds, I am so sorry you are having these difficulties. I found your thread last week after joining, and read through the entire thing, appreciating very much your willingness and courage to detail the first year in your experience with a Karakachan. I think you have sold me on the breed. 

I'm sorry to hear that you are not online at the moment and hope you are able to get things sorted out and come back soon.


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## motdaugrnds

Well, it has been a difficult time for me and I'm still torn up emotionally, mostly worrying about how my precious grown son is; however, with the help of the court system I'm free from the struggles that took a heavy toll on me. 

.....updating.....

Valentina is a year old now! She loves cold weather and creates herself a bed on cold nights in the barn with my Nubian buck. (Cujo sometimes creates himself a bed in there as well; however, he prefers to sleep indoors on very cold nights.)

Valentina went thru *another* heat cycle! It wasn't as difficult *for me* as her first one because I knew exactly what to do to keep her and Cujo separated. (I'm seriously considering getting both her and Cujo fixed this year, though am wondering if maybe I should wait until Valentina is a year older....Should I wait?)

Valentina obviously knows her charges are the goats, the fowl and me...I really like the me part because of being alone now. Had to have my internet connection changed today and Valentina would not let the 2 men out of their car. Her growls would have scared the life out of me! (I had to chain both dogs up as even Cujo was not as friendly as he use to be. I'm wondering if some of Valentina's protective behavious are rubbing off on Cujo....)

It is quite obvious Valentina knows she has permission to think for herself and, though complying with my commands...dare I say commands!!...she takes her time sniffing and checking out the various areas I let her into. Example: I always give the fowl 4 cups of cracked & whole corn every morning. I keep these in a barrel in my wood shed. Both dogs will sit at the door of that shed until I tell them it is ok to come in, then they both rush in and smell around...it is next to my orchard so I'm pretty certain uninvited guests frequent that shed. When I'm ready to leave that shed, I always say, "ok, let's go" and Cujo darts out while Valentina continues to sniff around, then slowly meanders to exit. [I really like that she minds while continuing to do what she thinks important. I suspect that type of response may be needed one day.]

I have changed Valentina's (and Cujo's) diet in that Taste of the Wild is quite expensive; however, I'm still using a grain-free food called "4Health". I like getting the 3 different types and mixing it; and both dogs are doing well on it. They still get their raw meats/bones 3-4 times a week, raw eggs daily and chew bones to both clean their teeth, treat them when they've done something special and to strengthen hips/bones.

Yesterday I made a terrible mistake: I still groom them both daily and cut their nails. When I cut Valentina's I cut one nail too short.  Valentina yelped and it started bleeding. She had been laying on her side. She raised her head to see what I'd done to her, though she did not get up. I felt like crying. I poured some Hydrogen Pyroxide over it and washed it and it stopped bleeding quickly. Still I felt sooooo bad!


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## oldasrocks

I had a vet tell me never to give a dog a raw egg. They can't digest it properly. So our crew gets scrambled eggs.


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## Moboiku

oldasrocks said:


> I had a vet tell me never to give a dog a raw egg. They can't digest it properly. So our crew gets scrambled eggs.


On the contrary, raw eggs are good for them and help them maintain a very healthy, shiny coat. (On a side note, I discovered today that one of my dogs has become an egg eater. She found a hidden nest and carefully opened every egg and licked it clean. Now I've got to figure out how to convince the turkey laying there, to lay them in the coop where the dog won't have accessâ¦..)

Motdaugrnds, so glad to see you back here. I'm sorry the last month has been so difficult for you but I really enjoyed the update on Valentina.

You seemed to be questioning whether or not to spay her this year. If it helps, a lot of people recommend waiting until age 2 with these large breed dogs, however you are the one dealing with the heat cyclesâ¦..it does seem like the cycles were only 3 months apart - am I remembering that incorrectly? Would it help to only neuter Cujo at this time? That way at least when she is in heat, you wouldn't have to keep them separate.


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## CAjerseychick

Motdaugrnds,
so sorry to hear of your travails- good to hear you are on the other side of things.... As to the spay, thats a tough one, just decide what you have the energy and time to manage -- that is all you can Do...
we will see you when you get "back"....


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## aart

Welcome Back Motdaugrnds, hope things continue to get better for you.

Neutering Cujo seems like a viable alternative.


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## Maura

So glad to see you back! I'm sorry about the family difficulties, but in the long run it's better to have it done with. Like pulling a band aid off.

Cujo may be more aggressive if Valentina was coming into heat. He may feel your anxiety at suddenly being alone and be more mindful of guarding you.

I think I'd give Valentina one command for getting out of the shed, then gently walk into her to force the command. What if she thought a large rattle snake was worth investigating? Or a foot trap? She's a good girl, she'll respect your demand to be listened to.

For the spay, I'd fix Cujo first if he seems to be the only male coming around, and let her finish growing.


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks for the good wishes and welcome backs you have all given me. Feels real good!

Yes, Cujo is the only make coming around; so he will get fixed before Valentina goes into heat again. Then I'll wait until next summer when she will be over 2 yrs old.

Ok, I like the idea of "gently walking in to force compliance"...ROFL Will certainly practice that!


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## VTHomestead

Why must people insist on buying from breeders  There are so many dogs at kill shelters that would make great LGD's.. We just picked up an Australian Sheppard and had him shipped up to Vermont from Arkansas. He's the happiest puppy ever!


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## earthkitty

When the safety of my livestock is at stake, I want to be sure I have the correct breed to get the job done, with the proper temperament. I tried to adopt a grown LGD before I got my dogs, and rescue groups won't adopt out for working purposes.

I have many rescued animals as well, and I would venture to say that most people who do what we do have rescued more animals over the years than we can count, so your comment might be met with an unwelcome attitude.

Australian shepherds aren't livestock guardians, btw. They are a herding dog. Happy for your pup to have gotten a good home.


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## Moboiku

Shelter dogs rarely make good LGD's. Even LGD breeds don't ALL make good LGD's. And, unless a puppy is exposed to livestock by the time it is 12-16 weeks of age, there is no guarantee it will ever bond with livestock.

LGD's are in a different class from most other working dog breeds. An Aussie Shepherd (herding dog, not a LGD) that is primarily a pet, and a Bulgarian Karakachan used as a working dog are not in the same league.

Every pet I've ever owned has been adopted from a rescue organization. But I'm not taking any chances with an LGD and am currently seeking out breeders for the two I plan to get. I suggest you do a little research on LGD's and perhaps read this whole thread, before throwing in your two cents.


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## motdaugrnds

VTHomestead, I can appreciate your comment because there "...are so many dogs at kill shelters..." and it would be real nice if more of them were adopted. However, Earthkitty and Moboiku are absolutely correct in their comments about the well-bred LGD. Personally, I would rather take a chance on a well-bred LGD to guard my dairy goats and fowl, which is why I chose Valentina, got her as a pup and trained her as I have.


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## motdaugrnds

I found this and thought some of you might enjoy it. Apparently it was taken in Bulgaria and it is about the country and their Karakachan Dogs.

[ame]http://vimeo.com/35657268[/ame]


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## motdaugrnds

updating ....

Valentina is a year old now. She has definately settled into what she has accepted as her role on this place. She often patrols the parameter fencing and will lay/sit on top of the knolls looking over the pastures when the goats/fowl are out there. When Cujo runs toward the front fence warding off strangers going down that street, Valentina will look but she will not follow him. She has even quit barking at such times. However, when someone comes to the front gate it is a different story as she will meander up toward the gate, barking once or twice and growling a little. I really like her laid-back attitude!!

Recently I've been seeing her more attentive to the back acreage, an area she cannot get to. This back part of my homestead is all pasture and is situated behind my garden/orchard/vineyard and bounded by an ever-flowing creek that a dog can jump across. (I cannot leave my gate to it open for concern the goats and dogs would venture across that creek.) Yet Valentina is barking (sometimes growling) while she is looking over to that area. 

My fowl venture over there (except the geese) and I've lost quite a few of late; so I need to do something to let Valentina help guard them, though I'm not real sure how to do this. I can let her into the garden/orchard/vineyard area as only the chicken house opens into that area and she does not harm the fowl. Yet I need to prepare a place for her to enter/exit that the goats (even kids) cannot get thru. I'm thinking I might create a diamond-shape opening in the front part of this area. Valentina could at least get into the garden/orchard/vineyard yet still she could not get past this area into the back pasture. (I need to put up a fence across the entire back to prevent her from getting down to the creek before I let her roam at will in that area.)

I'm thinking the goats might NOT be able to get thru this diamond-shaped opening. Any ideas would be appreciated. I really need to let her do her thing in mid-section part of my homestead; then of course, when I get that back fence up, I can create the same type of entrance/exit in the back part of my garden area so she can get in the back pasture whenever she thinks it necessary. (I'm thinking there are foxes, *****, even possoms back there.)


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## aart

I've read about the diamond shape....or rather triangle with the point on the bottom......for deterring goats from a chicken coop. Never seen anyone try it tho.

I'd make something up to mimic it and test the theory. Maybe a piece of plywood with the diamond shape cut into it, starting small so you can enlarge it and put it somewhere both the dog and goats can go, see if the goats can get thru. I love experiments like this.


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## Squeaky McMurdo

An automatic doggy door through the fence with the key on her collar?


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## motdaugrnds

I went over and checked out that automatic dog door. I didn't see a medium size only the large. However, since my goats would not be wearing the key, this looks like something that might work well.

I'll try building a "triangle" area first and see if my goats can get thru it. If they cannot get thru this triangle, that would be much less expensive than the $200 automatic door (door plus 2 keys).


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## Maura

Dogs have been taught to open and close doors. Valentina is pretty smart.


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## motdaugrnds

ROFL Maura, believe me...I've considered teaching both dogs to open the gate to the garden/orchard; however, I do not believe they would remember to close it again if they were going after some predator. 

I've noticed both dogs looking rather bored. The only would-be predators seem to be in the back pasture. My next step probably needs to be a fence put up across the back there near the creek. That would not keep predators out but it would permit my bored dogs to service a larger area. (I'm quite thankful they have each other to play with.)


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## Maura

On one of our gates, knowing the kids would not make sure it latched, I went to the hardware store and got a specialty latch and a spring. The spring was different than for a screen door, but did the same job of bringing the door shut. The latch had a curve in it and the gate would hit it, go past it, then the latch would drop down and lock the gate. If you had this set up you could add a rope for the dog to pull (release the latch) and push (the gate open. She wouldn&#8217;t have to close the gate because the spring would do the job. I love this set up and will use it on the new/old in town retirement house we have.


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## Squeaky McMurdo

Maura said:


> you could add a rope for the dog to pull (release the latch) and push (the gate open)


All of my goats know how to open the gate to our backyard with the pull-string (long enough for my human kids to reach) the latch will also fail if the gate is jiggled by wind or persistant goats so I have to keep a lock or clip through the hole when I let them out of their pen.


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## motdaugrnds

ROFL That seems to be the disadvantage of living on a farm with "smart" goats! ROFL

Maura, can you tell me the name of that spring set and where I might get it?

Saw something today that causes me to be even more glad I made the choice I did to get a Karakachan!!

Valentina and Cujo were welcoming me back from town, when all of a sudden Valentina took off toward the back of the acreage. Cujo did not follow her. As I saw the flock of guineas fly from the back of the barn, Valentina headed around to the back of that barn. She was not growling and wasn't even barking...just running! I went ahead and parked my van; and by the time I was able to take a look at what was going on, Valentina was back saying hello as though nothing had happened.

Later this evening she was barking in the way she does when something is amiss. I went out to see her standing among my guineas looking intensely t6ward my garden, which is 2 fences away from her. Then she took off running again, back around the barn to the other side of my garden fence. I stayed there looking but never saw anything. Shortly, Valentina returned to fix her gaze, again, past the chicken pen into the garden area. Cujo attempted to play with her, but she would not change her focus. She and I stood looking out over the garden for awhile. Occasionally she would give a low woof; but mostly she was quiet!

What I liked about this, beside the fact she was patrolling/guarding, was that she would not let Cujo distract her from doing her job!

...I gotta get her a door fixed in that fence!...


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## motdaugrnds

Updating....

Caught Valentina laying near the mother hen with her 10 chicks under and around her. What a beautiful sight!

Felt sorry for Valentina yesterday! I had taken Cujo to get neutered, spent hours in and around town, then picked him up and brought him back home. He had come thru surgery fine. (Oh Cujo has never, but never, howled! Yet when I went back to pick him up after his surgical procedure, I heard a large dog howling and was told that was Cujo, that he had just started; so must know I'm nearby.) When we arrived home, Valentina was barking and twisting and wagging so much I knew she was aware Cujo was in the van. (I had walked back to shut the gate while Valentina stayed at the back of the van talking to Cujo.) I had to leave him in the van until all had been accomplished I needed to do, which was about 15 minutes. Valentina had stopped talking so much but would not leave the van. When I let Cujo out, she was so gentle as though she knew something was different. Cujo was still a bit sluggish as he had been given an injection for pain that would last about 24 hours. He was able to walk up the stairs and go into the house. Valentina just sat down at the "loosely screened" door and gave a little whine. I made sure Cujo was comfortable, then I went back and told her she could come in. She stayed a short while when she heard a bunch of guineas outdoors making a ruckus, letting her know something was amiss. She darted out the back to check it out. A very short time later there she was at the back door again wanting in. She could have come in anytime as there was only a loose screen hanging there; but she "asked" to get in instead. I let her in for about half an hour.) 

Cujo was so good thru all this. He is not use to getting into the van; so really didn't want to do so. However, he did and let me chain him. (I didn't want to take a chance on this very active large dog distracting my driving.) At the vet's office, he did not want to go with the technician; however, when I told him to "go on", he reluctantly did. [While waiting for Cujo to have his surgery and then recover enough for me to bring him back home, I pampered myself.  I had my hair done and then had one of the most wonderful pedicures I've ever had sitting in a chair that massaged my ENTIRE back the whole time. (I plan on getting this pedicure every month now!) ]

Last night I kept Cujo inside while Valentina stayed outside. She does not appear to mind rain at all and I've seen her walking the parameter fencing in it; however, it was raining very hard most of that day and most of the night.

Early this morning Cujo was licking at his stitches; so I placed a plastic cone around his head to prevent this. Later when I went outdoors to tend to everyone, I took that cone off and started him on his (and Valentin's) regular routine. Cujo enjoyed the tooth-cleaning bone yet did not eat but a few bites of his regular food. Valentina was still quite calm around him not "forcing" him to play with her as I've seen her do in the past. Cujo did relieve himself, then I saw him "running" toward the front gate to check out what was there, then "running" back again. Wow in less than 24 hours since his surgery! I took him back inside when I noticed him wanting to lick at his stitches, putting the plastic cone back on. It has taken him a bit to learn to walk with that cone, yet at the moment he is sound asleep in the house. Valentina asked to get in at first and, after she sat and looked at me so nicely, I let her. She stayed about 10 minutes, then out she went; so she is outdoors now doing her thing with the sun shining. 

Sure glad this is all taken care of. I was quite concerned about getting all this done because the weather has been in the 90s and my trailer is a furnace on days like that. I had been getting things ready to keep a spot as cool as possible for Cujo when he returned. However, with my Heavenly Father providing such a nice, hard, lengthy rain, the entire trailer has been actually so cold I needed a sweater. So Cujo has been comfortable. Today is nice and cool too, even though it is no longer raining.   

I will be taking Cujo back the 27th to have his stitches removed and, at that time, will be taking Valentina in for her rabies shot & another complete physical. (I also want the vet to look at what I've found just behind Valentina's ears near the bottom. It is not red nor inflamed. It feels like a tight "flat" piece of tightly matted fur; yet when I attempt to get under it, all I find is skin. So I'm concerned there is some type of growth there and I want the vet to check it out. If only matted hair, I'll have him cut it off. I asked several people who breed Karakachans if their dogs have this behind their ears and all have said no; so I'm guessing I'm concerned for nothing but will find out the 27th.)


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## Nathanaf8388

My britt got those matted hairs on the bottoms of his ears quite frequently


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## aart

You are such a great story teller...and that is a great story.


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Got Valentina's door done. Just used a couple of boards to make a "V" then cut out the wire that had been there. It took her a while to figure out how to go thru it (and again how to get back out thru it), though Cujo went right thru as though he had done it a thousand times. (I think it is low enough so my goats cannot get thru it even if they tried.) ... Disregard the weeds you see in the garden. I'm trying to wait as long as possible before I get the man to come bushhog everything....

Cujo's stitches are still in place and he has not had to wear the cone. The weather has been cool at night; so I let him stay inside during those hours when I couldn't keep a close eye on him.

Still have the mother Orpington running around with all 10 chicks while Valentina just walks near them. She will watch for awhile, then lay down. ROFL (Did catch my cat, Jet, eyeing those babies; however, when I said "pssst", she looked at me and then climbed up onto the house. OMG I hope she comes down before it starts raining again as I cannot climb up to get her.)


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## motdaugrnds

Updating ....

You should all see what Valentina is doing now!! Apparently she is going thru her new door into my garden often. There she is finding skeletons (bone fragments) from what I had placed in my compost pile (an unfinished raised bed at the moment). She brings them back thru her door and my yard now has 4 skeletal "heads" laying around in it. OMG I've been picking them up and throwing them in a feed bag to deliver to the county trash cans and she doesn't mind at all if I take them...even while she is chewing on them. Looks like this fall, when I do my butchering again, I will need to make better use of the two porcelain tubs near my compost pile...also the tumbler.


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## aart

Have you tested whether the goats can get thru there?


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## motdaugrnds

Aart, I've not seen the goats even get curious about it... knock on wood ...! I suspect the way I'll find out for sure is if one day I find one or more goats in the garden.


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## motdaugrnds

Updating ...

Took Valentina in to see the vet today at same time I took Cujo in to get his stitches out. (Vet said Cujo looked real good and everyone there thought he was so sweet.)

Valentina got a general exam and was found a little underweight, weighing on 69 lbs. She had had free-choice dry food from dawn to mid-morning each day. It has been "4Health". I have noticed she isn't eating as much as Cujo. (I think she is finding guinea eggs all over the place during the day.) Any suggestions as to what I should do to put weight on her?

Valentina had no worms and no disease. The lumps of hair just behind her ears were commonly known by this vet and turned out to be clumps of hair. The vet "shaved" them off easily. 

Valentina got a 3-year rabies vaccination and a 1-yr dystemper-parvo lepto booster.

Both dogs are so strong and were difficult to handle getting them into the vet's office. (It was suggested I give them some "regular" obedience training. I'm thinking I might do this *for fun *with both of them. Do you all think it would be ok to do this with Valentina? She does protect all animals here without it and does let me do whatever I need to do to her body and with her food. I'm thinking, since she is going to be a bit larger and more powerful as she grows, some type of regular obedience training might be a wise idea. Yes? No?)

I now have one baby goose running around with 2grown geese following it (one still sitting on a nest with 3 eggs under her), encircling it and hissing should anything get close. Valentina will watch it, then lay down. She is treating it like she does the 10 baby chickens that are all over the place now. GOOD DOG! 

The triangle gate I created for Valentina (and Cujo) works great. The grown goats cannot get thru it; however, I saw two 4-month old kids going thru it without problems.


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## Maura

Why _wouldn&#8217;t_ you put obedience training on them? Part of early socialization is taking them to the vet&#8217;s office so it will be a normal place for them. I think they would enjoy obedience training. I train and do house calls, but you might find it better to go to a place where they walk in circles, since what they need is training off the farm.


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## aart

I would think obedience training both on and off the farm would be good.


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## CAjerseychick

Late to this, but did want to say, we just had regular gates installed (some reused from old chain link gates left when we bought the property, and the back gate is new, its 2 together to let the septic trucks in)- there is a gap under the fence that our LGD boy goes sideways under to patrol, he can roam at will and it contains the goats fine (no babies here, the dwarf we had could do the same but preferred to stay with the herd, which was fine as he was the only one small enough to get out)...

Also, had some problems with one of our older dogs on the kibble we been feeding so finally am having to switch, (her toenails had been peeling off and getting infected, after about $600 worth of vet fees in the past 6 months thinking that upgrading the kibble is a better alternative)..
Found a meatbased kibble that nutritionally is quite dense and notso much filler- I shop online at Petco, and delivery is free over $49, which sadly this food is, but I can usu get coupons for $10 off so it runs me about $60 a bag, but I dont have to feed as much--
(Solid Gold Barking at the moon, my older- age 5 - dogs fingernail issues started after we left the Solid Gold brands)...

Also on the obedience training, Oscar, our LGD pup (now 95 lbs but skinny when he gets wet he looks like a big boned greyhound with with white fur)...
went to a puppy obedience class (I would suggest a basic, obedience 101 class for Valentina) and then we kept up on taking him out for leash walks at least 3 times a week, it gets him out, in the car, thru town to a busy state park/ old mine site with historical buildings and lotsa tourists- this keeps him exposed to different sights and sounds and people, and also keeps him leash broken (we do a lot of sitting for treats to on the walk)....

Hope that helps!
And that Cujo is recovering comfortabley...


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks everyone. That certainly settles it for me. Valentina is going to get some of the "standard" obedience training OFF GROUNDS. I'm going to take Cujo too!

I'm concerned about creating a "crawl" space under a fence because I really don't want to encourage such behavior. (I found several areas around my "parameter" fencing that a dog could crawl under if so inclined...will be attaching a horizontal log to those places and tying it to the bottom of the wire.) 

I'm now wondering about a "doggie door" mentioned in this thread not long ago. I will need to find one that is weather proof. Then the "key" to opening it can be attached to each dog's collar.

I'm getting a bit worried about Valentina's weight. The vet told me she did not have as much meat on her bones as she would like to see. I just thought it was Valentina's stage of development that was making her look thin. So I've been watching her more closely. She is not acting hungry! I've seen her eat the "4Health" dry food yet it is obvious she doesn't like it much. (Cujo will eat anything.) She does eat "raw" foods well yet I don't have enough to give that to her every day; and what I do give is not enough to put weight on her. Also, I've not seen her poop. When I called the vet later I was told she was unable to get a fecal sample; and I remember the same thing had occurred last year. So I was mistaken about being informed she did not have worms. Without a fecal sample, there was no evidence. So now I'm worrying there might be some parasite that is contributing to her lack of eating and less weight. So I'm watching for her to poop so I can run out and take a look.........

Can a load of worms cause her not to be hungry and/or not eat much? Should I switch her food? This started when I stopped feeding Taste of the Wild and went to 4Health just to save $10 per bag.....grrrrr


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## CAjerseychick

I know with small pups they get pot bellied full of worms and that does decrease their appetite, but not sure about a yearling...
One of mine finally threw up "sphagetti" which looking closely was masses of small worms (yuck)... so thats how I knew, this was several years ago, and the heartworm combo worms them monthly which is nice...

I would probably switch her back to TOTW, I learned the hard way the true cost of saving the $10 a month! Its not only not really cheaper in the long run (due to vet bills) but just not great for your dogs longterm health and functioning (if as you have noticed she is losing body condition on the new stuff)...


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks CA.

I have four (4) bags left of the 4Health; so after that is gone, I'll return to TOTW. I know she did well on that!

I had some left over stew tonight and added that to their dry today. Valentina obviously enjoyed it and ate about 2-1/2 cups total then was full. Cujo finished hisand watched until Valentina left hers. Then he ate what she had left. Later I gave them each a small shin bone to chew on. So this pretty much confirms there is nothing wrong with her appetite. It is the chow! (Wishing I had not stocked up on that brand of food!)


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## Squeaky McMurdo

Our feed store quit stocking our preferred brand mid pregnancy with Cammy and she hated the new stuff and lost a bunch of weight and her pups because she refused to eat it. We did discover that she would eat it if I added broth and then I eventually switched to adding water instead.


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## Maura

Four bags is a long time to be on food you know to be inferior. Give it to the Humane Society and get Valentina TOTW.


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## motdaugrnds

I spoke at length with the vet today and she stated she would like to see about 80 lbs on Valentina. That means 21 lbs more than what she weighed. OMG

The vet suggested I feed her twice a day (2 cups each time with a can of some quality dog food mixed in with her dry).

I've taken some of the meat/bones out of my freezer, half roasted them in quite a bit of water and chopped up the meaty parts into small bites. I'm putting 2 cups of the 4Health into Valentina's pan, adding enough juice to cover well and stirring in half a cup of the meaty peaces. I'm going to do this twice a day for awhile. (I'm feeding them separate as always; however, I making sure Cujo cannot finish Valentina's leavings.) After Valentina gets thru eating all of this she is going to, that is when I give her the bony peaces (with meat on it). This ought to start stretching her stomoch a little so she will start eating more at a time. I'm doing this because I don't like "canned dog food" and I still have quite a bit of goat meat in the freezer that was specifically saved for the dogs. I'm hoping she starts gaining weight on this!

Maura, sure wish I could just give these 4 bags of 4Health away and buy TOTW; but my finances just won't permit that at this time.


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## CAjerseychick

motdaugrnds said:


> sure wish I could just give these 4 bags of 4Health away and buy TOTW; but my finances just won't permit that at this time.


Tractor supply might let you exchange the 4 bags for TOTW?
(for some reason my feedstore charges about $5 less than TSC does for TOTW though so I buy it there).. there might be $10 more difference if thats doable, you should call them...

roasted goat meats, lucky dog!
Good luck on beefing up Valentina, I cant Oscar fatter either.... he just nibbles and turns away, abandons the bowl, its like a little kid with a bad appetite, they dont know they are hungry or something.... and then the other dog (I cant keep them seperate all day) cleans up the food, hes 20lbs overweight!


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## Mrs_Lewis

Obedience train them separately. Unless one of them is proving hard to keep interested, if so training the second dog while the less inclined one is present but separated from the fun in a pen may prove useful.
Since you're a bit late into the game, having a knowledgeable friend assist can be handy, fresh set of eyes and all that.

Have fun!


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## motdaugrnds

CA, great idea. I'll call TS and see if they'll exchange the 4Health for the TOTW. I would be paying them the $10 x 4= $40 extra; so maybe that would be an incentive. 

Mrs Lewis, I'm not sure what you're saying....I've been training both dogs together to "sit", "stay", "come", "take". They do great with this even when it involves a nice chunk of raw meat/bones; and each leaves the other alone to do his/her thing. It is the "heel" I've not been doing mostly because I've seen no need to do it; however, taking them both to the vet at the same time, I was sure wishing I had. Is it the "heel" you're referring to? If so, I could certainly chain one in an area where he/she could watch.  Actually, I don't have any suitable training tools. I have some flimsey "slip leashes" so maybe that would work. I'll find out.


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## Mrs_Lewis

I was merely suggesting that training them separately tends to be more effective. I'd personally advise using a temporary pen rather than tied to a chain or leash as associating leashes to confinement would be detrimental to on-leash heel training and leash training in general.
Shopping for training tools sure can be exciting, although one can come up with a lot of things that can be used that is already around the homestead. Seeing as you've already posted some inventive solutions I for one am looking forward to see what you come up with.


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## motdaugrnds

updating....

I took the four unopened bags of "4Health" dog food back to TS and they refunded what I had paid for them. I then purchased what I had previously been feeding, i.e. Taste of the Wild. 

Since I still have half a 30 lb bag of the 4Health, I purchased some canned dog food, i.e. "Alpo" (prime cuts) and "Ol-Roy" (variety pack) both with gravy. My vet had suggested I give this canned food to help Valentina gain weight. 

I put half a cup of the dry 4Health into Valentina's pan, added 1/4 cup warm water to it and then added one full can of the Ol-Roy. She eagerly ate the whole thing while Cujo sat watching. (He is such a fine boy.) I then went back in with both hers and Cujo's pan, using another can of Ol-Roy so as to give Cujo a small amount and Valentina about 80% of that can. Again, Valentina ate it eagerly. So what I learned is that my assumption was correct. There is nothing wrong with Valentina's appetite. She simply does not like 4Health!

I bought enough of this canned food to add one full can to 1/2 cup of the 4Health dry food three times a day for 2-4 weeks. She should start gaining weight that is evident by then.  If not, off she goes for a good blood work up to find out what is wrong with her. 

The training I'm doing is more "walking" than anything else. Both dogs are on leash at the same time and are doing nicely (after I tire Cujo out by letting him chase his favorite ball)....


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## Mrs_Lewis

If your vet suggests you feed the dogs "Alpo" I'd get another vet.


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## Squeaky McMurdo

Mrs_Lewis said:


> If your vet suggests you feed the dogs "Alpo" I'd get another vet.


I have to agree with this. I had a dog that had seizures if he got a hold of Alpo (visiting in-laws) so I'm weary of whatever is in that stuff. I boiled liver and saved the juice to convince my dog to eat a food she didn't like. I also gave her the juice from pork roast and any other meat I cooked. That got her back up to an acceptable weight fairly quickly.


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## motdaugrnds

Thank you both for that information about Alpo. Valentina's vet did not suggest any particular brand, just stated adding some canned to the dry she was not eating might help.

I have been boiling "goat" liver and adding that juice (with the cut-up pieces of meat) to their food; and of course they get the juice from the roasts. If I let it set so her dry is softened by the juice, she eats it ok. 

So far she is eating the Ol'Roy canned food very well; and though it is obvious she wants to pick around the 4Health I mix with it, still she eats the entire amount given...now 1/2 cup of dry with 1-1/2 cans of the Ol'Roy twice a day. (Cujo knows she is getting more of the canned than he is; however, he is still eating the dry.)

I now have two fresh sacks of Taste of the Wild ready to start slowly introducing again soon; however, I want to finish most of the canned foods to see if Valentina gains some weight. (It is so hot here that even I don't care much for eating..just want something cold; and I often see Valentina in the kiddie pool.) She still has great energy and I suspect is keeping her weight down somewhat by playing with Cujo the way they do.

I also saw something quite different yesterday. Valentina has never shown any significant prey drive, only curiosity; however, Cujo has apparently taught her how to catch rabbits. I saw a large rabbit hop up in the pasture and Valentina took off after it. It ran beyond my parameter fencing so she did not follow; but seeing her actually chase something (besides Cujo) told me she might actually be finding live food around in the pasture. (This is quite curious to me because there are these 10 baby chickens scattered all over the homestead, some quite a distance from others; and neither Valentina nor Cujo bother them.)

Ah, and their leash training ("heel") is coming along beautifully!


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## Squeaky McMurdo

You know...puppy chow mixed in with her regular food would put weight on her pretty fast. She's active enough that it wouldn't go on too fast.

You may be right about her getting her own food... And she's probably expending more calories to catch it than she is taking in hence her low BMI.


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## CAjerseychick

We are thinking of adding Alpo to our top quality dry to encourage our skinny boy to eat... (I dont think alittle of that will hurt her in the long run, although yeah boiled liver is probably healthier, but the canned sure makes them eager to eat)...


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## motdaugrnds

I decided to go ahead and serve that one batch of Alpo canned food, figuring if I mix it sporadically then maybe whatever is in it some of you believe harmful will probably not cause problems. It is only 12 cans. (I also remember feeding Alpo "canned" many years ago when I was raising shepherds; and my dogs thrived on it; so a bit confused as to why it would be bad now. It's been around a long time and certainly isn't among the cheaper foods.)

Valentina got 3/4 of the 4Health dry soaked in the juice from the canned food and 2 cans of the Alpo added. (Cujo got a full Alpo with his dry food.) Both dogs chowed it down as though they were starving and not one bit of the dry in Valentina's bowl was left. This actually encourages me as there is little doubt Valentina will start putting on weight eating like this twice a day.  .... She stopped eating only long enough to check out what she heard in the back, then returned to finish her food.  Cujo actually left about 2 tbsp of his food and Valentina finished it for him. ROFL (I gave them both a piece of dried turkey as a reward.) 

I noticed a "skinned" place behind both Valentina's ears today with scabs over them. That tells me the vet who shaved off those two knotted hairballs behind her ears, scraped her skin to do it. They are not infected and are healing find. It just irritates me they are there.


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## Squeaky McMurdo

It was the dye and harsh preservatives in the dry Alpo that set my boy off. Don't know about canned. He had epilepsy already so a normal healthy dog should be fine on it especially short term.


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## Mrs_Lewis

Good marketing and hearsay carries a brand far in sales.
A quick Google search on where Alpo lands in nutritional studies should satisfy anyone's curiosity. ( hint: it is in the bottom) For those who distrust what is written on the internet, ask a vet.


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## Squeaky McMurdo

Yep. Miss that boy. He was a walking quality detector for sure. Anything less than an 8 on a scale of 1-10 set off a seizure. He's gone now, but he's the reason I started looking at labels and really got me thinking about what I put in my loved ones' and my body.


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## Maura

You don&#8217;t need to mix TOTW with the 4Health because TOTW does not have grain in it. Throw away the 4health and just feed the TOTW.

Also, keep in mind that most vets see mostly house dogs who are fed poor quality food and are fat. You have a working dog. She is going to be thinner than the average house dog.


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks everyone. I'm feeling much less concerned about Valentina appetite now as she is eating real well. By the way, 4Health does not have any grain in it either. That (and the fact it was $10 per bag cheaper) is the reason I got it.

Yes, she is definately a working dog (and a playful one). If she's not out in the pasture with the goats, she is rough-housing all over the place with Cujo, who is completely healed now. (I can well understand why she would be thin in this heat using all that energy.)

Great incident occurred today: I went up to water my orange mint plants newly set out around the apple trees; and I left the gate open. A couple of neighbors walked down the road and stopped to chat awhile. Valentina started thru that front gate. Her head was lowered and I heard a low growl. (Cujo stood near the gate barking.) I said "uh uh" to Valentina and she stopped but just stood there looking at me and then at the couple. (I could just hear her thinking to herself wondering if she was going to obey or not.) I took a step toward Valentina with a soft growl and Valentina backed back to just inside the gate but still at the entrance watching. She sat down and stayed there. ......... whew! This was my first encounter with that gate open. The goats were next to Cujo and the couple didn't even get near me, but stayed in the street. I don't know if Valentina was warning them not to get near HER goats or wasn't liking their being so near me. However, the way she minded while continuing to watch and stay alert (obviously thinking for herself, which I'm still not sure I can trust) felt pretty good.


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## CAjerseychick

Ahhh good to hear, she sounds a lot better behaved than my crew thats for sure...
My boy made me proud today, when we had to short cut our walk next to the irrigation ditch so I (as I often do, with my never ending energetic 5 yr old giant schnauzer) pushed her in for an extra workout, she gets to swim some yards or so(10 mins or so )...and then climb out -- it gives her the extra bit to take the edge off her--

anyways, my boy who hates water jumped into "save" her - I was so proud! (he was sniffing a tree and didnt see me give her a push) he hates water, on walks he will take his time approaching then maybe wet a big toe (weird huh with his shaggy coat)...
....
I forget is Valentina your first LGD? this type of dog is new to me too, and its situations like this that reminds me that inside the goofy puppy, there is a protective dog...


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## motdaugrnds

CA what a great story! Thanks so much for sharing it. You certainly have a right to feel good about that LGD. (I remember your LGD being white but I don't recall what breed he is...?) I didn't think schnauzers could swim... Great way to let her burn off some of that energy. 

Yes, Valentina is my first LGD. I certainly have learned a lot from her; and she is doing a real nice job of guarding the place and following instructions, though often she is slow to do so. Today's event made me even more aware of how important it is to get her into a 101 Obedience class. (I'm still looking for one close to me; and in the meantime am doing some of it myself.) The event this morning did not fright me nor even make me nervous. It just reminded me to find an obedience class where she can be "socialized" with more humans.

I had both dogs in the back eating their morning chow when both let out a loud growl/bark. I had just chained Cujo so he could not finish Valentina's left overs as I don't want him gaining too much weight; and he can now that he's neutered. Valentina was NOT CHAINED so she darted down the stairs with her growl/bark. As I looked up I saw the meter man who so rarely comes around I forgot about him. I had not known he was coming either. When I saw him Valentina was headed in his direction with her head down; and I told that man to stop, do not look at that dog and do not move. He immediately did as instructed. Then I turned my attention to Valentina. I told her "uh uh" and she looked at me and backed off a little; but she was not at all willing to take her focus off that meterman. I made the mistake of walking toward Valentina and she backed away from me while still keeping her eyes fixed on that stranger. I then remembered to stop and call her to me. She hesitated long enough for me to wonder if she was going to come. Then she did come over in a submissive manner, though she would still glance in that strangers direction. I took hold of her collar, had her sit; and when she was calm, I told the man he could do what he had come to do........whew!.......... The man was very nice about the incident and even apologized.

What I liked about this situation had more to do with me than Valentina. I was quite calm while giving instructions and was even able to stop myself from a wrong behavior (walking toward Valentina to gain control). I'm thinking it is I who could use a little training too. ROFL


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## CAjerseychick

Yikes I am glad that you got the situation under control.... none of my guys are biters (that I know of)... although the schnauzer will nip at your clothes... the Berner wont actually get close enough for you to touch him (LOUD bark though)...
our LGD boy is antaolian, pyr crosses for 2 or 3 generations. He looks like a fluffy white anatolian...
Daytime he will bark and then jump up at the approaching person (we have a cattle gate entrance).. I have no idea what he would do at night, with someone announced and inside their perimeter of territory like your meter man...usu our guys expect us to to do the intros, they bark to announce....

Sounds like you and Valentina have a great working relationship though! Should be interesting to hear about class, when you guys get there (I wonder how she will react in that setting, with strange dogs and people, but it will be a good learning curve for her)...


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## Squeaky McMurdo

If you want her to guard from strange dogs and people, I would be kind of nervous that going to a class would desensitize her. Maybe private sessions with just her and your other dog?


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## aart

Squeaky McMurdo said:


> If you want her to guard from strange dogs and people, I would be kind of nervous that going to a class would desensitize her. Maybe private sessions with just her and your other dog?


If it's done off farm it shouldn't be an issue....she needs to be socialized to people, but not if they're coming across the fence/perimeter boundary at her home place.


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## CAjerseychick

I am with aart... its good for your dog to see and become accustomed to "normal" people - know what is "normal" and learn to differentiate situations and learn to observe vs intervening, being at ease vs skittish or aggressive around nonthreatening people.

I was relieved when the 2 Jehovahs witnesses ladies made it to the front door (before being trapped there by our dogs, I was in the shower when I heard them ringing the doorbell) and our dogs did NOT maul 2 little old ladies.

On the other hand when I had Puppy in the car at night recently, stopped off for gas at one of those dark little country gas stations, someone came up outa the dark behind our car(just going into buy something)-- you should have heard the low growl he sent, it sent chills up my spine, let me know he was ready and capable to handle Danger....as he saw it...


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## Maura

I don&#8217;t think going to classes will make her less of a guard dog. It is a good thing to learn that some dogs and some people are okay. A friend of ours trained guard and attack dogs and never had a problem with dogs becoming &#8216;too&#8217; friendly. The best guard/attack dog can be called off at any point up to contact. The besets best ones sense danger from no danger, thus ensuring the safety of old lady JW&#8217;s.


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## motdaugrnds

Yes, in all the work I've done with dogs, training them within a group never did deter their ability to guard my home. It simply made them more obedient to commands.

My vet told me of a class that I will be checking into. My plan is to take both dogs and train them at the same time....wonder if this is permitted..........


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## Mrs_Lewis

Depends on the trainer and type of class. I've never allowed it.


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## aart

Probably better to take each dog individually to class, you'll all get more out of it, then work them together at home.


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## Maura

I think it would be easier to start with one and focus on that one.


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## motdaugrnds

updating...

Valentina is doing great with "obedience 101"; so is Cujo. 

Look what the two of them cornered at home the other night....

What had surprised me was the way both dogs acted because I've seen what they can do with a rabbit they catch. I had heard this loud rumble off the back porch and knew they were both after something. In stepping outside I saw both dogs chasing something that was running very fast across the acreage under my security light. It was a small fawn complete with all its beautiful colors. I was surprised Valentina was chasing a fawn even though I've seen her charge foxes.

It was so very dark in parts of this acreage and I had a terrible time getting across the acreage to where they had cornered it; however, when I did, I discovered it was all wet and quite frightened. I wrapped it in my shirt and managed to get it into the house. In checking it over, I found it had not been hurt at all; so I made sure it was dry and calm, then took it back out to the parameter fencing and put it over so it and its mother could find each other.....Sure would have enjoyed keeping it but know that would not be best for it...plus it is illegal in my county.


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## Cannon_Farms

a good friend is looking for one of this breed, can some one give a reference to a good breeder? they already have one and want another from a different breeder


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## motdaugrnds

Cannon I sent you some breeder information via PM.


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## motdaugrnds

....updating....

Discovered a characteristic I had been uncertain about before. Valentina, though she "thinks before responding to a command of mine" and though she definately feels her alpha position on my farm, she is respectful of my authority over her. She is, also, respectful of Cujo. (I've seen both she and Cujo take the dominant role around foods. She will not tough Cujo's even if he walks away from it because she knows he is watching it. Cujo acts the same way about any raw foods she is enjoying. Not once have I seen them fight over food of any kind.) Also, though she lets me know she does not want me touching any raw foods she is eating, if I slowly and calmly claim it by walking over and standing over it, she relaxes and lets me pick it up. (Of course I give it back; but I really like that she takes care of what is hers while still respecting my position.)

Neither dog is still eating as I'ld like them to. I literally had to take back, not only the "4Health" but also the TOTW dry foods as neither of them would eat it anymore. I exchanged the latter for a "Diamond Naturals" and both dogs ate a bowl full the first time I opened it. Cujo is eating this better; however, Valentina is still not eating the dry enough to put weight on her.

I found some "whole" chickens for sale and purchased 4 of those. I cut one in half and gave each half to each dog. They smelled it before taking it and acted as though there was something wrong with it. (I do know whatever the stores use to keep it preserved must make that chicken smell different from my home-grown ones.) Still they both ate *only *the leg/thigh part of their pieces. I put the rest up for the next morning. That next morning they were both hesitant again in taking the meat (raw of course); yet when they did, Valentina ate all of hers. Cujo nibbled on his and after he let it lay for about an hour, I offered it to Valentina. She took it to a shady place on the grass and ate the rest of it while Cujo went upstairs and ate the dry food. (This hot summer has sure messed up their eating habits and I'm at my wits end trying to put weight on Valentina and keep it on Cujo.)


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## CAjerseychick

Hmmmm one of mine will eat the raw faster if I sear one side quickly in a hot pan (with oil or grease )... sorta cheating but it appeals to her...

Not sure what to say around the dog food, it might be worth it to buy less of a premium food and feed less that wont get wasted (I supplement with rice and human scraps and eggs)... that they like, they are doing well on Solid gold barking at the moon(I usu get it $20 off with the Petco couponing and stock up) with 1 bag a month of TOTW mixed in to stretch it a bit and cheap raw duck head and necks(59cents a lb) in the AM....


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## CAjerseychick

Also if you have a walmart I heard (another forum I think) they sell 10lb bags of frozen legs and thighs (chicken) for 33 cents a lb...


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## motdaugrnds

Yes, I've seen those chicken parts bagged up. I'm so reluctant to continue feeding *bought *meats because I know how they are preserved...........

I keep thinking, if they're hungry enough, they will eat the dry foods. After all it is still not the cheap stuff and is healthy. I've found Cujo eating it; but Valentina seems to be waiting and waiting and waiting ........... and waiting for something she likes. And sometimes even the raw foods offerred are not to her liking. (I did cook some "bought" beef liver and chicken liver up for them; and Valentina had no problem eating that.) I'm wishing I had never started feeding her raw foods...........and am concerned that she will literally starve herself until she gets what she wants.


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## CAjerseychick

Well from what I have been reading up on dog food, even the premium ones arent using "human grade"or the equivalent meat, which is what even the frozen Walmart chicken is-- FDA inspected human grade, dog food mostly is made from stuff lower grade than that.
Something to consider, unless you are buying the stuff thats $70-90/ bag for like 26 lbs ...

one thing I do like though about my Chinese butcher is that they get everything freshly killed from the Farm (I happened to see them wheeling in cases of fresh killed ducks, whole, the butcher chopped off the necks for me on the spot)...
am beginning to realize how unusual this is, its not like buying meat from a chain grocery store like safeway....


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## motdaugrnds

CA you're so fortunate to be able to get those heads. I have not found any place around here that would give me the opportunity of getting such things, though I'm not giving up the search.

Here is a recent picture of Valentina I thought you all might enjoy. I had seen her laying on the top of that knoll earlier and then heard her bark. As I looked I noticed she was looking out over the neighbors field where wild deer are often browsing; so I was able to get a neat picture of Valentina and the goats.  I've noticed many of the younger chickens seem to follow the goats around and some can be seen in this picture.


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## CAjerseychick

Love that photo ( so panoramic!)-- and I am glad you mentioned that bout the chickens and goats-- ours like to hang out with the goats too!
Valentina looks so capable- she is definitely all grown up these days-- that is a great photo-
it needs to be in a breed book somewhere captioned "the Karakachan in America" or something!!


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## motdaugrnds

ROFL, CA thanks for the complement. It is so obvious she does feel quite confident! (You should see her patrolling the parameter fencing each evening....)

I actually did use a portion of this thread to create an e-book entitled "Valentina, A Bulgarian Legend" and the very first picture was the one where she is only 2 months old...I thought that was a funny one to start that eBook with because she looked so young and innocent. The heading under that pic was "This is a Bulgarian Legend?" ROFL If I ever take her story into and past her adolescents, I can add the above picture with a few of her courageous acts (if I can capture them).


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## Squeaky McMurdo

Could you find a butcher shop and just ask for all their offal and other waste scraps? They might even just give them to you.

You could also contact Fish and Game to ask about road kill deer and large game being dropped off at your place during the winter (usually cold enough to preserve them safely) You might even be able to get animals that are mortally wounded that they have to put down, but our local Fish and Game gives those to needy families so that may or may not work where you are.


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks, I have not been able to find a listing for "game & fish"; so have not been able to contact them. Will continue to look.

I started a different feeding program this morning...Had already slowly introduced Valentina (and Cujo) to "Hill's Scientific Diet" (a dry food for large breeds that contains some grain and some veggies). Brought home some ground beef (73% lean & 27% fat content), cooked it until brown in a little water and let it cool. (I packaged it all in 1 lb baggies.) Then I placed 3 cups of the dry food in a large frying pan, added some water to cover and simply brought it to a boil with a lid covering it. Then I mashed this dry stuff up and added one of the 1-lb packages of ground beef I had just cooked. 

After letting it get to room temperature (while tending outdoor chores), I divided it into two pans and took it outdoors to the dogs. The usual ritual took place, i.e. making sure both dogs are around me sitting nice and quiet. Then I focused on Cujo and, when he changed his focus from the bowl of food to me, I sat his bowl down between his front feet. Valentina continued to sit watching all this until it was her time. Then the same ritual occurred with her. Then I left them and finished up with what I was doing outside. Upon my return to check on the dogs, I found both dogs had eaten *only half *of what was in their bowls; so I picked up their bowls and took them into the house to preserve until tonight when I will stir them well and complete the same ritual. *I have stopped all treats and am hoping Valentina will finish her food tonight. *

I contacted Peter, one of the Karakachan breeders who had brought some of his dogs from Bulgaria, about Valentina's weight. Peter told me she was still growing, that he would not be concerned about her weight being 69 lbs because, at full growth she may only weigh 90 being a female...as long as she is energetic and her bones are not prominent, which they aren't. Peter also told me these dogs are use to eating "vegetables" in Bulgaria and he has fed his dogs blackeyed peas with a small mix of meat in them. I'm less worried about Valentina now that I've heard from Peter as I've seen his dogs and know he cares very well for them.

Valentina certainly is still energetic. I saw her walking the eastern portion of the acreage today in the heat of the day (Goats were laying in the barn where a breeze was blowing.) next to the fencing...took this picture and wish I had it in video form. It was wonderful to see how she patrolled that fence line!!! (Now please ignore the terrible looks of that pasture. I have not had a chance to rennovate it as yet and the "wingstems" are prominent.  )


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## Maura

Hills is not a high grade food. If you don&#8217;t want to feed raw, go with a top brand. You can get Taste of the Wild at Tractor Supply.


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## motdaugrnds

Maura, I was feeding TOTW up until last fall when both dogs stopped eating as much of it. I'm actually considering returning to it!

The experiment I'm conducting at this time has worked very well. I just got in from the evening ritual of giving Valentina (and Cujo) their meal for the night. If you read above, you know that meal consisted of what they left over from this morning. I simply stirred it up well and gave it to them. I am pleased to report Valentina ate every single bite of hers (about 2-1/2 cups) and so did Cujo. (That was when I placed one of their favorite treates inside those "empty" bowls.  ) I'm limiting their treats to this ritual of their leaving an "empty" bowl.


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## Squeaky McMurdo

motdaugrnds said:


> Thanks, I have not been able to find a listing for "game & fish"; so have not been able to contact them. Will continue to look.


Virginia correct? 
http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/contact/


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## motdaugrnds

Thank you Squeaky, I sent them an email.


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## motdaugrnds

.........just received email from Fish & Game Dept tellimg me each county in this state took care of their own road kills. So, I will be talking with them.

updating........
Found a great buy on ground beef (77% lean & 23% fat) as well as large bags of chicken pieces. Bought enough to feed both dogs one meal a day of this (mornings when it is still cool). Then packaged the ground into 1-1/2 lb bags to be mixed with the dry food (soaked in water) they have left over that they don't like. Then I used soap and washed all the chicken, rinsing well and packaging it. (Washed in this way to hopefully get rid of some of the lousy preservatives used.) So, alternatively, these 2 dogs get either raw ground mixed with soaked dry OR large chicken pieces each morning. Then in the later afternoons I put out TOTW dry food not mixed with anything. (Cujo will eat it if he gets hungry during the day/night; but Valentina still turns up her nose at anything dry.)

Valentina has put on some weight despite her lousy eating habits; so I guess her body just doesn't need as much as Cujo's, though this seems strange to me in that she is only a year old and Cujo is over 5 yrs.

Caught them both playing together and was able to get it into video form. Cujo has weight over Valentina; yet she is so fast, there is no way he could ever catch her if she didn't let him. I believe I got it up on YouTube and it can be seen here:

http://youtu.be/JaNgcfUq8W0


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## Eagle1

It always amazes me how these dogs can match their energy to their playmate. My GP/Karakachan uses way less speed and force playing with the pups or the smaller dogs. Now when he and my GP horse around it sounds like a heavyweight boxing match. However the pure GP is way slower than the mix. He is all legs and I've had him run away from the ATV at over 35 mph by then I was watching the trail not the speedo...


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## aoconnor1

motdaugrnds said:


> Thank you TedH71, I'm googling tonight!


I feed a large breed adult food to my pups. I stay at or very close to 25% protein nothing higher than that. I stay with higher end feed and give Cosequin as a hip and joint supplement daily. My pack is varied...I have a Great Pyr., a Catahoula, a GSD, and and English Bulldog. No hip or joint issues in any of them at this time, and my GSD is ancient...she is 12 and still runs ranch work daily with me. 

Your puppy is so danged cute. I love her little head tilt, what a doll! Best of luck with her, she sounds like a keeper!


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## aoconnor1

Sorry! I didn't realize how old this post was when I mentioned large breed puppy feed!!! Never mind!!!


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## motdaugrnds

Not a problem, Aoconnor, all information is always welcome.

Updating............

Finally noticed Valentina is gaining weight. I literally had to be more rigid in the way I fed her, i.e. no in-between-meal-treats! I settled on the following; and within a month's time I noticed she is eating the dry food again, which is what I was aiming for.

Valentina gets 1-1/2 pounds of raw ground meat (23% fat) 3 times a week that has been mixed with the old dry foods (soaked over night) neither she nor Cujo like. The alternated other mornings she gets half a raw chicken. Cujo gets only 1/2 lb of the ground meat mixed with that same soaked dried food 3 x wk with only legs/thighs on alternated mornings. Then in the evenings around 8 pm they both get a full cup of TOTW (salmon); and if I give Cujo's to him first, then set Valentina's right between her front feet, Valentina will eat it all.   Yeah! ! ! ! Thus, Valentina is gaining weight and Cujo is not.


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## Squeaky McMurdo

I just saw your little book about her on Amazon!


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## motdaugrnds

Update..........

Saw this Karakachan in action this week! The tow truck had arrived early to pick up my van and carry it into the shop. I managed to get Cujo chained so he would not run up there to interfere; however, Valentina was nowhere to be found. Then as the man got out of his truck and walked toward my van, I saw Valentina go from the back yard over to where the goats were standing watching this man. She stayed with the goats the entire time this man was on my place, not once going toward him but very alert in front of *her *goats.  What I was most pleased about was that not once did she bark!


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## aoconnor1

Very awesome report on Valentina! Good girl!!


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## motdaugrnds

...updating.....

Was watching both dogs this morning while they ate the raw chickens I had just given them. (As always, when feeding them, I would set the pan I had carried it all out in on the ground and both dogs automatically sit about 2 ft away watching. This morning it was raw chicken; so I opened up one package to give them each their first course, i.e. a huge leg/thigh/back combo. Then I offer one dog his/hers and, as soon as he/she is looking directly into my eyes, I give it. It never matters which dog I give the meal to first, as the other never interferes.  They each get two of these combos on the days they get chicken.)

This morning the "live" fowl were already out and running around the place, some being interested in that chicken the dogs were enjoying. I discovered a very different approach to taking care of their meals, i.e. Cujo would actually chase the chickens that got too close to his meal, chasing them about 4-5 ft. However, Valentina would stop eating her chicken and very quietly watch the fowl that were getting too close. Then she would jump toward them, landing on her front feet (like she use to do as a pup when playing). She definately was not playing this morning and, as soon as the fowl jumped back, she went back to eating her chicken. ROFL *I sure do like this dog! *


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## motdaugrnds

....updating.....

Well, Valentina is in heat again! Cujo has no interest in anything but her; so neither dog is eating well now. Valentina is "tolerating" Cujo's interest and, as yet, no fight has occurred. (I sure am glad Cujo was neutered.)


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## CAjerseychick

motdaugrnds said:


> ....updating.....
> 
> Well, Valentina is in heat again! Cujo has no interest in anything but her; so neither dog is eating well now. Valentina is "tolerating" Cujo's interest and, as yet, no fight has occurred. (I sure am glad Cujo was neutered.)


wow its seems she was just in heat! Are you thinking maybe eventually breeding her as she is a rare breed?....

One thing I wanted to share, is that finally butchered 2 outa 5 (yes 5 ) roosters from this years hatch- and the dogs would NOT TOUCH the raw parts I saved for them- the pluck, the necks (minus head), just sniffed and moved away like it was unpalatable.
(Ok with them stewed though- we had the meat in enchiladas, and stuffed tortillas- turned out great)...


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## motdaugrnds

CA that is curious, i.e. that your dogs would not eat the roosters. (Hmmm wondering if you had been putting anything in their water that the dogs might be smelling. I'm wondering this because I have discovered neither of my dogs are "eager" to eat store-bought chicken; and I know those were treated with a preservative. I literally have to wash the store bought chicken with soapy water and rinse real well before my dogs will eat them.)

I am not planning on breeding Valentina; but am waiting until she is over 2 yrs of age before having her spayed. I wouldn't mind at all having more Karakachans, even an Akbash and a Sarplaninac because I love these 3 breeds; however, that would be realy silly with my small 6-acre farm. (I just don't want to get into breeding.)


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## CAjerseychick

motdaugrnds said:


> CA that is curious, i.e. that your dogs would not eat the roosters. (Hmmm wondering if you had been putting anything in their water that the dogs might be smelling. I'm wondering this because I have discovered neither of my dogs are "eager" to eat store-bought chicken; and I know those were treated with a preservative. I literally have to wash the store bought chicken with soapy water and rinse real well before my dogs will eat them.)
> 
> I am not planning on breeding Valentina; but am waiting until she is over 2 yrs of age before having her spayed. I wouldn't mind at all having more Karakachans, even an Akbash and a Sarplaninac because I love these 3 breeds; however, that would be realy silly with my small 6-acre farm. (I just don't want to get into breeding.)


I actually think they recognized the smell of the roosters (I worked so hard with the dogs on how the poultry is Off limits) and thats why they didnt want to eat the birds they knew... 

Interesting on your waiting to spay with Valentina, I guess for some reason I had thought only about the male dogs ' needing to be intact for maturity and health, not females... Good to think about...


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## motdaugrnds

CA, you undoubtedly have some well-trained dogs! I do believe our guard dogs are smart enough to question us when we offer them what we had prior thereto told them was off limits. 

I was thinking of you today when I offered my 2 dogs some freshly processed goat meat. (I'm putting 9 goats in the freezer this year and much of it is packaged for the dogs.) Well, Cujo would not take his without coaxing, then he went and buried it. I've already seen him digging it up twice so I know he wants it. Valentina "cautiously" smelled what I offerred her, then looked up at me as though to ask "Huh?" ROFL Oh yes, I think this dog can talk! ROFL With my holding it in front of her and saying "take", she s-l-o-w-l-y took it. She did not bury it as Cujo did but "picked" at it until it was all consumed. ROFL 

CA gotta just love our LGDs!!!!!


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## CAjerseychick

Yes I do think it must be confusing when those that were previously off limits are (literally) offered to them on a platter- they can very well smell "Susie" or whoever, and its confusing.... as it is for my 11 yr old child, who is still getting used to this...

We had a rabbit die unexpectedly, ended up crock- potting her - dogs took the head offa the gut pile unexpectedly and it hasnt turned up.. 

so I guess they are not perfect- child said, however, Rabbit is Good!....


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## motdaugrnds

Updating......

Situation occurred today that let me know how respectful Valentina can be.

I was attempting to get the processed meat up my stairs into the house when the plastic bag ripped and some of the meat fell out. Both dogs were eager to get at it as all they had this morning was their barley/liver mixture.

All it took from me was a few "uh uh", "leave it" and "growls" and they just sat there watching me cart off what I have no doubt they wanted. (I literally had to carry it piece by piece while they sat there looking at those wonderful meaty bones still laying on the ground. ROFL Was quite comical!)


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## motdaugrnds

Updating.....

Have a mother guinea with 13 baby keets following her around. I've seen them each morning now for 4-5 days as they are always waiting just outside the door to the chicken house where I always throw some cracked (and whole) corn. (I've taken to adding some chick starter for these keets.) 

Well........there sits Valentina not 10 ft away from these baby keets. Remember last year when she (and Cujo) ran toward a lone keet? Valentina grabbed it, chomped once and swallowed it? Well, this batch of keets was definately of interest to her; however, I've seen this mother (with keets) roam all over the front part of the property where Valentina and Cujo both roam. Not once has she (or Cujo) made an attempt to get one of these keets. And this mother dose NOT sleep in the chicken house but sleeps at different places in the pastures where both dogs roam at night....

Has Valentina (and Cujo) learned respect for baby keets? I really doubt it. I suspect their being with their mother is a deterrent; however, I have seen these keets 3-4 ft away from their mother and the dogs have not bothered them....yet!


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## CraftyLady

Googled images - Beautiful fluffy large breed dog. 

(humm - picture of Putin with his new puppy also listed)


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## motdaugrnds

Hello CraftyLady, This breed does have long hair; and sometimes it is fluffy...when it is cold. Valentina's hair pretty much lays near her body except her tail and a portion around her neck.

Updating.....

Just saw my *first dog fight *! Heard the fight, looked up and it was Cujo and Valentina. I yelled, "Hey...cut it out!!!" and both dogs stopped and looked at me. (So they weren't into the fight too deeply...knock on wood.) Then Valentina backed up a bit and Cujo picked up something and walked toward me. It was a huge bone I had given him earlier this morning. (Had given Valentina one as well.) 

I took the bone from Cujo and looked it over good, thinking, "...ugh it is soooo dirty...maybe I should wash it..." ; then realized Cujo would just bury it again; so I returned it to him.

I pointed my finger at Valentina and growled. She lowered her head slightly and walked up the back stairs. I noticed the bone I had given her was up on those stairs; so I walked up there and picked hers up. It was nice and clean; yet when I offerred it back to Valentina, she didn't want it. _s t r a n g e _

What I realized was that this was the first time Cujo had *not *let Valentina have her way. All times in the past (that I can remember at this time) he had simply let her have whatever he was eating that she might want. She would scoot up to it, put her mouth on it, they would look at each other a short while; then Cujo would get up and let her have it. This time was quite different in that Cujo was not about to let Valentina have his dirty bone. (If I had not been around to yell a correction at them, I'm not sure what would have occurred. Cujo has a good 15 lbs on Valentina and it is all muscle.)


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## sportweasel

I have two Great Pyrenees who I am beginning to feed a partially raw diet. I have always been curious about how to handle fighting when feeding meaty bones. I feed them in separate crates and haven't given them meaty bones in order to avoid food aggression issues between them. I am interested to see how you and your dogs deal with this issue going forward and learn from your experience. Thanks for sharing your journey. I've learned so much from it already.


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## Maura

And the puppy card dissolves completely. She may not have taken the bone from you because she thought you were putting a claim on it. Toss it on the lawn and she&#8217;ll probably go after it again. You&#8217;ve really trained them well.


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## Maura

When I have more than one dog they sort it out themselves. I feed them outside. I give one dog a piece of chicken, and he runs off. Then, I give the other dog his piece of chicken and he runs in the other direction.


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## motdaugrnds

Sportweasel, glad my incredible journey with this Karakachan has helped others learn. It sure has been challenging for me; but with the help of these wonderful people in this forum...as can be seen throughout this thread...I have managed to come out with a really good LGD who is respectful of all animals (goats and fowl...even baby keets), myself and Cujo. She, of course, is going thru adolescents (and I've drastically changed the size of my goat herd) and obviously Cujo has decided he isn't going to give her everything he considers his anymore. So, I too am looking forward to experiencing whatever is going to occur next with excitement in the learning.

Sportweasel, prior to this new occurrence, I have always fed both dogs only a few feet away from each other, (similar to Maura with neither in a cage nor chained); and they have each respected the other's food...even when they had finished their own. This has definately changed ... somewhat. 

This morning I fed them each a large meaty hock; and along with this they each got one of the slabs cut off near the ribs...quite a large piece of meat/fat. Then I went on to do my morning chores. Upon my return I noticed Cujo was just coming from where Valentina's pan had been and was carrying something. He buried it; then returned and picked up somethng else. I called him over and noticed it was one of the hocks and had not been chewed on. (I have no idea if it was his or Valentinas because I had not stood around watching to see who ate what.) So I took it and then walked over to where he had buried something. It was one of the slabs. Now I know Cujo is a fast eater when it comes to raw meat...Valentina is picky and slow. So I'm thinking, since Cujo is burying these items, it is because he is not hungry and he is not hungry because he had already eaten his. Thus, what he is burying is Valentinas. So I took both into the house to wash and put up. That is when I saw Valentina chewing on a meaty bone. Now the only meaty bones given out this morning were those hocks; so now I'm thinking maybe I'm wrong and what Cujo was burying was actually his to bury....OMG Tomorrow I will be watching more closely!!

Maura, I believe you may be right...as usual  ... Valentina does not hesitate to get what I throw on the grass for her. Thanks for the compliment. I feel pretty sure about Valentina's character and pretty confident in my ability to take charge of whatever situation may arise. It is just that she is now going thru adolescents, the goats she's been guarding are much fewer and now Cujo is saying "No." I want Valentina to remain confident and assertive; however, I sure need to make sure I maintain control over any adolescent acting out...as I recognize it....and I don't mind telling that her growl is not something I would like to encounter were I a stranger to her!!! Also, at such times when she has appeared challenged, there is a very serious look in her eyes; and from the pics I've seen of other Karakachans guarding their stock in the hills of Bulgaria, that look is in their eyes too, even as puppies....


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## motdaugrnds

I am sorry this thread is no longer showing the pictures placed in it. I have spoken with Angie about it and she tells me she is aware of this and will get it fixed as soon as she can. Please be patient. Thank you

WOW I see HST Admin is already working on this. Thanks


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## motdaugrnds

...updating...

I believe I just witnessed an *adolescent moment *with this Karakachan! ! !

As usual I give both dogs their daily vitamin. Cujo always eats his by swallowing it whole; however, Valentina never really wants to eat hers. Most of the time I've been having her sit and then opening her mouth and pushing that big pill to the back of her tongue where she has to swallow it. This morning was quite different!

I fed the dogs so they would have food in their stomachs and then gave them each their vitamin. Cujo, of course, swallowed his. Valentina would not take hers...I always *offer *it to her first...so I opened her mouth as I'd done in the past and started to put the pill in when she growled. That, of course, is not permitted; so I growled back at her, took her collar and yanked it straight up rather hard. Then I told her to sit, which she did with a little coaxing. This time her mouth was *tightly clamped shut *and she growled at me again. I growled louder, took her collar and yanked it up harder; then had her sit...again. This time when I offered her the vitamin, she actually took it and chewed it up, swallowing it.   Then I gave her lots of her favorite kinds of pets and we both were happy!

If, indeed, this was one of those adolescent moments, I sure hope the rest will be as easy to recognize and tend to.


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## fordy

motdaugrnds said:


> I am sorry this thread is no longer showing the pictures placed in it. I have spoken with Angie about it and she tells me she is aware of this and will get it fixed as soon as she can. Please be patient. Thank you
> 
> WOW I see HST Admin is already working on this. Thanks


 ...............I just went through the entire thread and couldn't see any of the pics you had posted ! Did they delete them on purpose or what ? , fordy


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## aart

fordy said:


> ...............I just went through the entire thread and couldn't see any of the pics you had posted ! Did they delete them on purpose or what ? , fordy


You must have missed post #364 ;-) which states that they are working on restoring the pics.


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## motdaugrnds

....updating....

Last night was something out of the ordinary around here. Both dogs were uneasy much of the night with Cujo and his loud bark followed by a loud, short growl and Valentina sounding like she didn't know what to do..........bark? howl? growl?

Valentina has always barked when she becomes aware of anything unusual around our parameter fence line. She has howled (long howls) when the predator did not go away. She has even made a dash for the fence line with a ferocious growl. However, last night she stood in the back yard (where the entire goat herd was standing) looking in the same direction Cujo was. Valentina would start off with a bark which turned into a howl and ended in a growl..........yes it did appear she *might *have taken a breath between the bark and the howl; though if she did, it was quite short. Never did she stop for a breath between the howl and the growl. I've never heard any dog sound like this before and didn't even know it was possible.

This went on sporadically for about an hour and twice I took my shotgun out and stood watching...never seeing anything and never hearing anything. [This morning I got concerned as I only saw 3 of the baby keets with their momma; so I was thinking something was able to get into the garden/orchard where the momma houses them at night and eat the rest. Yet, as I entered the area where I usually feed them I saw the others inside my slaughtering pen. So all are well as they came out to join their momma when I threw the food on the ground and called them.  I will be glad when this momma guinea takes her keets into the chicken house to roost at night...or at least get them into the trees.]

Valentina is going thru adolescents and I'm wondering if dogs have vocal changes as do humans during this time of their development........


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## aoconnor1

We're you able to look for tracks of any kind? Sounds like you had a larger predator than maybe is normal for your area, and Valentina was reacting to that? I don't know, but my ranch dogs react very differently when we get a larger predator around here. One that they won't mess with. They stay in closer to the house, and growl more than bark. I have found bobcat tracks soon after, so am assuming that is a predator my dogs won't take on.


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## motdaugrnds

Aoconnor1, you may have something there that I had not considered. No, I have not been able to find any tracks as whatever it is seems to stay in the brush on one particular side of my property (behind the barn and in the back part of my neighbor's place, which is mostly forestry with lots of fallen trees).

I have become aware there is something going on that makes no sense to me as yet. My fowl (guineas) no longer leave my acreage, my goats (only 3 now) sleep at my back door step and both dogs stay closer to the house. Oh the goats will go out to graze periodically. So will all the assorted fow. The dogs, too, will roam around in the pasture and seem to be checking out the parameter fencing. But every single time I step outdoors, the goats and both dogs either come near me or stand a short distance away looking at me. (Sure they have all been pets; but never have they acted so insecure before.)

Valentina, too, is obviously making changes...as is Cujo...in the way they act with each other. Both continue to remain respective of each other's food, especially if it is the raw food; however, I've seen Valentina attempt to dominate Cujo with regard to the back porch. This is quite new! I don't know if it is because *her *goats are sleeping at the foot of those steps. I keep two (2) dog beds on that porch (along with their large plastic container of dry dog food). One bed is on each side of that container. When Cujo is laying on one of the beds, Valentina will let him know she wants it. When Cujo is laying on the other bed, Valentina will let him know she want it. Cujo will not move and Valentina eventually goes to the other bed (or out to the barn, depending on where the goats are or how cold the weather is). I'm thinking Valentina is now attempting to take the dominant position and just hasn't learned how to do that as yet...wondering if there is going to be a fight and how on earth I will need to deal with that. (I sure want Valentina to maintain her confidence and assertiveness throughout her adolescent years.)

Cujo is always this happy excited (always on the move) animal while Valentina is always calm and assertive. Cujo calms down when he wants pets from me, never gets them until he is sitting calmly and then will nearly go to sleep while I pet him. Valentina doesn't seem to need as much attention as Cujo, yet will come over and lean into me for as long as I'll let her. (I've noticed *at times *Valentina will stop what she is doing out with the goats when she sees me walking across the two acres to the front gate as I go after the mail. She will come and walk beside me as though she is "healing"; but I've not worked with her on that for many months.)

Maybe I'm imagining this, but it seems everything about the animals is different; and I really have not found out what has caused the change. I'm attributing it to Valentina's adolescent stage as well as the fact I put the majority of her goats in my freezer.........??


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## Maura

Valentina is asserting herself as the female. Most males will not fight with a female, and she is trying to take advantage of this. He is handling it as he usually does, by not getting into it with her. They are coming to their own understanding. Labs are actually domineering dogs, but they are usually not aggressive, and are confident enough not to worry about some little upstart.

Can you get a game camera? I think that is the only way you will find out what is bothering everyone.


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## aoconnor1

It could be a large predator. It's very weird here when there aren't dogs barking somewhere in the night. I always know there is a large animal out there moving around at those times. Dogs will bark at coyotes or raccoons until their eyeballs fall out of their head, but get a larger predator, and a dog will be very quiet, they don't want to attract the animal to themselves. they also won't mess with wild hogs, if you have them in your area, that may be the problem. My dogs won't go near them, they won't bark at them at all either.


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## motdaugrnds

Well, the camera is not an option for me at this time.... 

It may have been a larger predator than we are accustomed to around here. I have no way of knowing and no one has reported any unusual animal being in the vicinity. (There is an Alpaca ranch about a mile down the road from me; so maybe whatever it was has moved down there; however, I've not heard any dogs barking from down in that area.)

Valentina has stopped her funny bark/howl/growl and Cujo has stopped his excessive barking as well; so I can only guess they kept whatever it was off my place and invited it to move on.

Valentina is doing something different with her raw foods now too. She eats less at a time but wants to eat more often. What that is about I don't know. If she doesn't finish the raw bone/meat given her that morning, she will guard it all day long, even carrying it around from place to place and letting it lay near wherever she decides to be for awhile. (When Cujo has more than he can eat, he will bury it and check on it periodically.) It is a funny site to see Valentina guarding both the goats and her bone; and when the chickens want to investigate it, Valentina will chase the chickens away and then return to where she had laid her unfinished raw meal...even taking it to bed with her at night. By morning it is gone.

I see no reason for this because I feed the dogs dry food in the late evenings. She does prefer the raw though...


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## Maura

My border collie does this too. If he isn&#8217;t hungry, he drops the food. When we had chickens he&#8217;d spend the day protecting his breakfast. Try feeding her less. She is no longer a growing puppy and may not need as much. Since you also feed her in the evening, she&#8217;ll eat more then if she needs to.


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## motdaugrnds

I did try that Maura. This morning I gave her 1/4th of the ribs from one side of a large goat. She would not take it from me; so I tossed it onto the ground. She went over, sniffed it and slowly picked at it. (Cujo chewed his up quickly.)

Throughout this day I've seen Valentina guarding that little piece of bone/meat. Now here it is late evening and she is laying at the foot of my back steps (about 3 ft from all 3 goats who look sound asleep). In looking closely, there it was looking as though it had not been chewed on much. 

I put some TOTW into each of their bowls; yet she turned her nose up at it.


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## Maura

Sooo, it&#8217;s not the raw, she is off her feed. What could be causing this?


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## motdaugrnds

I wish I knew what could be causing this....this morning I noticed she would only eat the "lean" part of the chick I gave her, leaving the fatty parts. 

I would worry if she were getting thin; but she still has good weight on her. I've even thought maybe she is eating something I have not given her; and I have discovered one of my large orpington roosters is missing. Yet I've not seen any signs of feathers or bits of body parts. And there has definately been some strange predator disturbing the dogs the last few nights; so I'm pretty sure that rooster has fallen prey to whatever disturbed the dogs. (Those particular fowl have been wondering near the parameter fencing.)

Am thinking maybe I should carry Valentina in for a general checkup.........


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## Maura

I think that would be a good idea. Check her tummy area and make sure she isn&#8217;t bloated.


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## motdaugrnds

I checked Valentina over well tonight and, no, she isn't bloated. She is frisky and playful, full of energy. Still she carried her chicken around all day, nibbling on it off and on; and this evening, she turned up her nose at the dry chow....

I also found the missing orpington rooster. It apparently had been dead for quite awhile; yet there were no marks on it at all. (I found it laying in front of my van as I was going to start the van up and go out for some headache powders.)This tells me no predator got it. Now if the dogs had killed it, I doubt it would still be laying there all cold as it was........so another quandary hits the farm.............


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## aoconnor1

Have you checked her mouth and gums really well? It may be she has something stuck in a gum or throat? Had a horse stop eating and took her to vet the other morning, she had a stick stuck in her gum causing her pain, though I couldn't have known that without a good vet check.


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## motdaugrnds

I did not examine his mouth; however, I remember seeing that *very heavy* rooster fall a few days back in its attempt to get up into the barn beams to roost. I'm wondering if it damaged something in that fall as the barn bedding is not at all thick in that area.

At least I'm certain it wasn't Valentina. She is still going thru adolescents and certainly testing limits; yet I've not seen her make any attempts to hurt the fowl (or goats) here. She is mostly pushing her limites on Cujo and me! 

Oh, and this morning when I gave them both their half of the chicken, Valentina did not hesitate to devour hers. There is absolutely nothing for her to carry around all day this time.


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## aoconnor1

Glad Valentina is back to chomping it right on down! 

P.S. I have a mare named Valentina She is a gorgeous girl, the name is very fitting. I bet your girl is a beautiful girl, too!


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## aoconnor1

motdaugrnds said:


> I did not examine his mouth; however, I remember seeing that *very heavy* rooster fall a few days back in its attempt to get up into the barn beams to roost. I'm wondering if it damaged something in that fall as the barn bedding is not at all thick in that area.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I missed about the rooster...I was asking if you looked in Valentina's mouth.... But it is a moot point now that she is eating again!
Click to expand...


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## motdaugrnds

aoconnor1, I have looked in Valentina's mouth. I did not see anything that concerned me.

Yes, she's eating again! I divided the goat ribs between her and Cujo this morning; and she did not hesitate to eat every piece of it. So, I'm thinking this dog simply does not eat like any dog I've had in times past. She eats only when she's hungry and turns up her nose at what she does not want. (This is actually occurring with dry and raw now.) Still she has good weight on her...not at all skinny, though not as meaty as I'ld like her to be. [It is Cujo's weight I have to keep tabs on most as he will eat most anything and, being neutered, he could put on more weight than he needs.)

...... still watching thread to see when all the pics get put back on......


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## AngieM2

this is an image link 





now an upload from computer











'Testing to make sure that images/photos can be linked to this thread.


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks Angie for staying on top of this. Can you make it so I can "edit" *all* my posts inside this lengthy thread? That way I can re-add the pics in the posts where they fit. Adding one here for testing purposes from my own computer.  Golly just realized Valentina looks right thru ya!


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## aoconnor1

She is beautiful! And yes, she does look right through me!


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## motdaugrnds

I've always thought some (if not all) dogs were telepathic! I know the ones I've had were super sensitive to my energy (especially this Karakachan). Valentina actually respond to that part of me more so than to the spoken words. (Test your dog by giving it a command using your body energy in such a way as to say "I don't really mean it." Even my Cujo, as obedient as he is, will ignore such a command.)


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## AngieM2

I'm sorry I cannot change the edit settings for you.


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## Maura

Siberian Huskys are like that, at least the ones I have known. One of them would get tired of the kibble and refuse to eat it. They would have to get another brand. My border collie also will not eat if he is not hungry. Until a couple of years ago, when age made him slow down, he was always underweight. I tried giving him more, and feeding him more often, but he just did not eat if he didn&#8217;t feel like it.


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## fordy

motdaugrnds said:


> I did not examine his mouth; however, I remember seeing that *very heavy* rooster fall a few days back in its attempt to get up into the barn beams to roost. I'm wondering if it damaged something in that fall as the barn bedding is not at all thick in that area.
> 
> At least I'm certain it wasn't Valentina. She is still going thru adolescents and certainly testing limits; yet I've not seen her make any attempts to hurt the fowl (or goats) here. She is mostly pushing her limites on Cujo and me!
> 
> Oh, and this morning when I gave them both their half of the chicken, Valentina did not hesitate to devour hers. There is absolutely nothing for her to carry around all day this time.


 
.............I've never given any of my dogs either chicken bones or pig bones . Pig bones can shatter into small pieces with very sharp pointed ends and chicken bones could easily become lodged in a dogs digestive tract or their esophagus ! I know people feed their dogs these items but they are , potentially , deadly . For chicken bones I just put them in a blender and and made mush out of them and added to dogs food . To each his own . , fordy


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## motdaugrnds

Angie, It is ok. This thread has lost much by losing all the older pictures; however, if anyone is interested in viewing this saga to the fullest, it is offered at Amazon in e-book form at the Kindle bookstore. There it is called "Valentina, A Bulgarian Legend". I changed up the read a bit to make the eBook more comical.

Fordy, I really do like the idea of grinding up chicken bones; however, I have no way of doing that. My VitaMix broke many years ago and I cannot replace it.


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## aart

fordy said:


> .............I've never given any of my dogs either chicken bones or pig bones . Pig bones can shatter into small pieces with very sharp pointed ends and chicken bones could easily become lodged in a dogs digestive tract or their esophagus ! I know people feed their dogs these items but they are , potentially , deadly . For chicken bones I just put them in a blender and and made mush out of them and added to dogs food . To each his own . , fordy


Fordy...You grind them raw, or cooked, in a regular old blender??


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## Maura

You don&#8217;t want to give your dog cooked bones. Hamish is 13 years old and has done fine on chicken, lamb, and beef bones. Also pig&#8217;s feet. Even the Bostons don&#8217;t have trouble with the direct bones. Besides, they enjoy chewing.


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## motdaugrnds

... updating ...

Valentina is 20 months old now. I'm wondering if she has gotten thru her adolescents...

I've become aware of late how Valentina greets me. It has become obvious that she wants to smell my mouth/teeth. Now I've seen her do this with Cujo and suspected it was because she wanted to know what he had been eating. Do you think she wants to know what I've been eating too? (I know wolves get acquainted by smelling human's mouth/teeth; but Valentina is not a wolf.)


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## motdaugrnds

... updating ...

I noticed Valentina licking her right front foot; and upon examination, I find a spot about the size of a dime near/between her middle toes that looks red and slightly swollen. She did not like my touching it; so I believe it is painful to her. I did not see a cut anywhere.

I preparred some salt water with a touch of Hydrogen Pyroxide in it and held that foot in it for about 3 minutes. She let me know that hurt her foot a little and she didn't like her foot being in that mixture. She would growl a little and then leave her foot in for a bit longer. She was so precious tolerating my caring for her that I gave her a dried chicken tender afterwards.  (Of course Cujo got a treat too just for not interferring. LOL)


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## Squeaky McMurdo

Uh oh. Do you have much cheat grass or needle grass in your area? My younger sister had a little Westie growing up and she got a piece of cheat grass imbedded in her poor paw between her toes. All we could see was a red sore spot until it got infected and the puss pushed it out enough to see. The vet said it was a pretty common problem in the autumn.


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## motdaugrnds

Squeaky, I did a search for images of those grasses; and from what I can tell, I have nothing like that around here.

I looked (and felt) between her toes and did not see nor feel anything. I also cut away a lot of the hair in that area so I could see better. 

I'm wondering if it is what's called "hot spots"...?... Valentina has lots of hair between her toes and maybe some type of dermatitis get started there.

I'm still soaking it 2-3 times a day and am spraying some hydracortizone on the area as well. Valentina will sit still for this but she does not like her foot doctored. It is not affecting her walk nor her running playtimes with Cujo. I hesitate to wrap it, thinking she would take off whatever wrap I put on unless I put a plastic shield around her neck. Am also wondering if she is needing some type of "internal" Rx med to help with this as I've never experienced this with any of my dogs before. (I did experience something similar with my cat; so maybe I can try the Rx med I put on Jet for Valentina's spot.)

Edited: Just this morning discovered there is a cut at this spot between her toes that I had not seen before. So I washed it in the solution mentioned above, soaked it a few minutes; and then I put some Neosporin into that cut. Valentina is such a sweetheard while I'm doing this as it is so obvious she doesn't like it, yet is tolerating my doctoring it anyway.


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## aoconnor1

If it is a hot spot, you can use plain old amber colored Listerine. Dab it on the hot spot twice a day. 

Is there any type of lump or swollen spot? If so, it could be an interdigital cyst, and you can soak in Epsom salts, then do the Listerine as well....


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## motdaugrnds

... updating ...

The sore on Valentina's foot is not healing. I keep soaking it, putting a variety of meds on it, even wrapping it; and she keeps licking everything off and taking off the bandages.

This morning I examined it closely again today and decided to try a Rx med the vet had given me a few years back for something similar on my cat's neck. It healed my cat beautifully! So I brought Valentina into the house, had her sit and soaked her foot again, then applied some of this Rx cream on the area. This time I did not wrap it. Instead, I put the plastic collar (once used on Cujo when he was neutered) on Valentina. She doesn't like it; but at least she cannot lick that foot. 

It is also raining outdoors and the goats are staying inside the barn; so I'm going to keep Valentina in the house today (and tonight) and see what all this does for her foot. If not helping to a degree I want it to, will take her to see a vet!


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## Maura

Yes, at this point, a visit to the vet is in order. Let us know what he/she says.


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## motdaugrnds

... updating ...

Yeah!!! It's working!!!
This cream I found in my animal medical kit is called "Animax ointment" and has nystatin-neomycin sulfate-thiostrepton-triamoilone acetonide ointment all in it. (I had purchased it from a vet for a rash my cat, Jet, had on her neck many years ago and have kept it in this medical box ever since. It worked great on Jet.)

I put this ointment on Valentina yesterday; then put a plastic collar on her. (I have no doubt the collar is doing a great deal to help her foot heal.) Here it is a little over 24 hrs later and the sore is *significantly improved*. I will continue this another 24 hrs and see if the improvement continues....else off to the vet.

Valentina does not like staying in the house, yet the weather around here keeps most everything she guards in the barn anyway; so I'm not that concerned about her. I let her out for her usual breakfast and did not keep the collar on her at such time. When I let her out, she ran off into the pasture and deficated before she was even interested in her meal, which this morning was nearly half a raw chicken. Upon her return, she picked at that chicken ... as usual ... and ate the whole thing. 

I let her stay outside without that collar while I completed the morning's chores; then when I attempted to get her back into the house, she didn't want to come. It took a little doing but back in she went, her foot got another coating of this Rx med and her collar went back on. She rested a bit then started letting me know she did not enjoy being attached to the foot of my bed by that leash. (I had attached her because I didn't want her knocking over anything breakable trying to maneuver that large plastic collar.) So I brought Cujo in to keep her company. Valentina immediately greeted him; and both of them have been nice and quiet. [Cujo is a marvel the way he puts up with whatever he needs to around this homestead!]

Have been looking over the net to see if I can find this ointment "without" a Rx; but so far, no luck.


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## aoconnor1

So glad you have found something to help her out! I remember using Animax, but can't for the life of me recall on what!! Just the name hits me in my brain, and I clearly remember the med. oh well, glad you had some on hand and Valentina is on the mend!


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## wiscto

I have to say, I read through this whole thread and you guys were all great. I grew up with dogs, but I learned a lot here. Thanks for sharing, motdaugrnds!


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## motdaugrnds

...updating...

Thank you Wiscto. I'm glad this thread has been helpful to you. (It would have been more enjoyable had the pictures remained; and I'm still sad about their disappearing.) However, the posters on this thread have helped me with this first LGD of mine for over 1-1/2 yrs. I owe much of my success to their generous contributions.

Valentina is still going thru adolescents; and it is most obvious when I'm telling her what to do. Example is taking her daily vitamine. However, her growls and reluctance to take this large chewable changed with patience and my own stubborness. This morning I "offerred" her the tablet. She looked at me, sniffed the tablet, looked at me again...oh I can just read her thoughts as her eyes tell it all...and then she took it into her mouth, chewed a little and then swallowed it. ROFL

The situation with her foot was an experience and a half. She did not at all like my doctoring it. When I needed to remove the hair from the area, she growled at me. I put a muzzle on her "with her permission" and continued removing hair. A similar occurrence was when I put some "gorilla glue" on the cut as I held it together and then wrapped it to keep her toes together. However, I did not want to give her any chance to practice an unwanted behavior such as putting her teeth on me. So I continued to breath slowly thru all this and it paid off. The largest problem I've had in this regard is her licking it. So each time I doctored it I would let her know licking is not something I want her to do. I know this may sound silly to some of you; however, I do believe this dog understood. (I've since learned of a "blue" more flexible collar to use in these situations, even dog "boots". I'm thinking it might be wise to get one of those boots just in case I need to deal with this type of situation in the future...just wondering she would actually leave it on...)

I'm seeing a lot of rather long hair on her feet between her toes; and I am wondering if I should cut it off so air can get in more readily. It is winter time so maybe I should wait. I just keep thinking that long hair is probably what helped cause the recent foot problem. She is such a fast runner and I know there are still all kinds of sharp rocks, maybe even pieces of glass, out in the pastures and down parts of the drive. And Valentina is not one to complain when she is hurt. Goodness, I've seen her running; and when Cujo starts getting close to her, her speed doubles in seconds. I've never seen a dog run like that. So I'm thinking maybe if she didn't have such long hair on her feet, she wouldn't pick up any little pieces of whatever that could cut her.


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## Maura

Adolescence is such an exciting time. I&#8217;m sure you are through the worst of it.

I trim the fur on the feet with long haired dogs. With my border collie, I just use scissors to show off the paw. I kind of like the feathering, but it helps me know if his nails need a trim. With more fur, I have trimmed up the fur in between the toes because ice will form on the fur. How much you have to trim depends on the dog, but you don&#8217;t need to shave it, just make it more manageable.


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## wiscto

We used the fetch on the driveway method for claw maintenance, but most of our dogs were labs.


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## motdaugrnds

... updating ...

Thanks Maura...went right out and did that!
Wiscto, wish my drive was amenable to that!

I trimmed Valentina's feet today; so all that long hair between her toes and around her feet waiting to catch snow is now gone. She was so precious in that, though she let me know she didn't want her feet trimmed, still she let me get it done. ROFL (I'm remembering how ferocious she has been at times and how I had to correct her firmly while wondering if she was going to get me. Now I know she will not bite me even when she does disagree with what I'm doing. What a relief!) Real nice to know the worse part of her adolescence is over and that she came out of it with a respect for me as well as confidence in herself.


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## wiscto

It wasn't always the smartest method anyway, motdaugrnds. We had a long driveway and we could see who was coming for a long way, but still didn't throw it toward the road. Never really knew which way that kong was going to bounce, or what a speed demon 63 lb yellow lab would do to dad's landscaping in the front yard. Actually, I did find out a couple times. Luckily they were perennials. 

Good job handling those paws, that would make me nervous with larger, more independent dogs. All of my dogs were babies, so I had it easy. Sounds like she doesn't want to quarrel with mom, even if it means putting up with paw handling.


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## motdaugrnds

Wiscto, even with messing up your landscaping, aren't labs wonderful? (My Cujo loves to chase "his" cone-type ball as it does just what yours does, i.e. bounce in all directions.) 

Thanks for the compliment. Valentina will growl to tell me what she thinks of her feet being doctored, especially when putting a cone on her afterward; however, I just take a deep breath and continue.... 

Since all my pictures on this thread got removed, I'm placing a few of them here just so new comers to this thread can see how this LGD grew.


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## wiscto

Yup, wish I had a good lab right now. So those were the pictures I missed, that dog looks like as sweetheart.


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## motdaugrnds

Wiscto, sounds like it's time for you to get another lab.... 

Yes, Valentina is a sweatheart; yet she is one I'm constantly needing to reason with...firmly yet respectfully. ROFL Believe me, this is still a challenge as she has a great deal of self-confidence! This morning as I was completing my chores, I noticed her mouth looked a little full; so I called her to me. She *hesitantly *came; and I told her to "give it to me"...I had little doubt she had found a hen egg in one of the goats' feeder bins and was carrying it off to crack open and eat. (Both dogs love raw eggs.) She stood there looking into my eyes letting me know she wanted to keep the egg. I *very patiently* stood there with my hand under her chin; then I put a finger and thumb around the egg and just held them there as Valentina continued to just stand there looking at me. (No growling at all.  ) Then she opened her mouth and let me take the egg. I praised her and walked over to a flat piece of wood, called her over and cracked the egg for her to eat...while Cujo was watching impatiently for his own egg. Valentina did enjoy that egg. Then, of course, I went into the barn and found a 2nd egg for Cujo; this time letting Valentina sit watching him eat his egg. ROFL I love working with these two dogs as they are so wonderfully respectful while so wonderfully self-confident! (In looking into Valentina's eyes, can you imagine what she would do were someone feeling nervous/fearful attempted to get that egg? I truly believe this dog is telepathic!)

Wish you all could have seen them as they stood next to me watching a large flock of various colored guineas fly across 2 acres to come to me. (I had seen these guineas up past my front gate near the state road and had called them.) What a beautiful sight that was with them all flying at once. That and their landing could have easily excited most dogs. Yet neither dog interferred in their flight; and of course, I gave those guineas some more cracked corn.


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## wiscto

> (In looking into Valentina's eyes, can you imagine what she would do were someone feeling nervous/fearful attempt to get that egg? I truly believe this dog is telepathic!)


Been there! More or less with a family members' dog who I used to watch. What a stubborn dog... It actually didn't take long for me to establish that I played by different rules, but I've seen her "masters" attempt to take things from her. She looked at them with eyes kind of like that (reading you, waiting, nope you don't have what it takes see ya) and then just back up stubbornly to eat the chocolate chip cookie anyway. Not on my watch. But that dog has figured out that I will sit quietly and say nothing while her masters are there. Always makes for a pretty interesting first day of dogsitting, because she's gotten used to me sitting on the sidelines. I've made a habit of paying her very little attention while I'm there, so as not to give her any wrong impressions regarding how I feel about what she is doing. The first thing I do, though, is walk right over to the human treats, and eat one while looking somewhat in her direction. If she approaches, I look her dead in the eyes, and the nonsense ends there. LOL


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## aart

That story reminds me of my Maggie a GSD mix who loved to eat carrion out in the woods. She would sssslooowwly slink into the yard with her mouth full, her head down and eyes up on me...walk up and drop a bone or whatever at my feet. It was hilarious, the reluctant 'gift' giver.


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## motdaugrnds

Wiscto, yes!! You got it! Some (if not all) dogs are wise enough to know what they can get away with and with whom. I suspect that dog was actually relieved to know she could depend on you...LOL...even if she didn't like the outcome. 

Oh Aart what a funny story. I can just see that dog dropping that gift for you. I actually have a cat that drops mice for me. LOL

Say, I just received my new nail clippers, i.e. the claw cutters. Went out to give them a try as my dogs' nails had not been trimmed for awhile. It took less than 5 minutes to trim the nails of both dogs. WOW Cujo stayed on his side the whole time and Valentina stayed on her feet the whole time. What a difference in these dogs; yet both got their nails trimmed without a hassle of any kind....love these new clippers.


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## aart

motdaugrnds said:


> ......
> Say, I just received my new nail clippers, i.e._* the claw cutters*_. Went out to give them a try as my dogs' nails had not been trimmed for awhile. It took less than 5 minutes to trim the nails of both dogs. WOW Cujo stayed on his side the whole time and Valentina stayed on her feet the whole time. What a difference in these dogs; yet both got their nails trimmed without a hassle of any kind....love these new clippers.


Goggled it....didn't find a product with that name exactly...can you elaborate?


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## motdaugrnds

Sure. Got them here. http://www.safeclipclawcutter.com/


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## aart

motdaugrnds said:


> Sure. Got them here. http://www.safeclipclawcutter.com/


Nice. Solid. Pricey.


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## motdaugrnds

Found a couple of videos I had once had in this thread that I think is important to share because it shows how intelligent this pup was from the beginning. She was approximately 3 months old when the first was taken and a few months older when the water one was taken. (Hope you can see them. If you can, notice that little "woof" she gives on the porch when I hand Cujo his treat after I've groomed him. You cannot hear it, but that is one of the times when she "talks".)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-G8A2EPDGI[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_IkfpNYva8[/ame]


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## motdaugrnds

... updating ...

Awhile back I created a "V" shaped door in the fencing between the chicken house and the barn. I did this so Valentina could go thru and keep tabs on what is occurring in there at night; however, at that time I had young goats that could get thru that opening. Thus, I had to close it off. Now that all my goats are too large to go thru that little door, I took off the wire; and Valentina (and Cujo) are going in and out at will. (A little funny about this: My processing center is in that area and I had the door open to it so as to get more light while I was cleaning some freshly killed chickens. Suddenly I see Valentina sneaking a peek in to see what I was doing. She had obviously gone thru that little V-door and was curious with the smell of everything. I called her in and opened the other entrance, then told her to get out. ROFL She did not hesitate to obey.)

I'm also quite proud of the way Valentina (and Cujo) are respecting what I'm doing, i.e. chopping off the heads of chickens, without interferring. They will watch and, when I toss the head onto the ground, both will look at me to see which one I tell to get it. LOL Last Friday I killed 4 more chickens and they each got 2 heads. (There is no way I'm going to put heads in a baggy, freeze and save for treats at a later date; so these dogs get them fresh.)


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## aart

motdaugrnds said:


> ... updating ...
> 
> Awhile back I created a "V" shaped door in the fencing between the chicken house and the barn. I did this so Valentina could go thru and keep tabs on what is occurring in there at night; however, at that time I had young goats that could get thru that opening. Thus, I had to close it off.  Now that all my goats are too large to go thru that little door, I took off the wire; .....


So the V shape didn't keep the goats out, hmmm....I wondered if the theory that they can't bring their feet to the center of their body to get thru the bottom of the V was true....guess it's not. Glad to see it tested out, too bad it didn't work.


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## motdaugrnds

Aart it does work...for grown goats. It was the young ones (under 6 months of age) that could get thru it with ease.


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## motdaugrnds

.... updating ....

Valentina is coming upon her 2nd birthday. She was born February 22, 2013. I want to have her spayed. Is she still too young? Would it be ok to go ahead and get her spayed sometime this coming spring while the weather is still cool? (I forget how many years to calculate for "dog years".)


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## aoconnor1

I have always spayed by 18 months. Never had an issue with that....early, cool spring should be fine.


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## motdaugrnds

...updating...

This morning I heard a ruckess in the front; and as I looked out my window I saw an assortment of fowl (guineas & chickens) flying from down in the pasture up toward the house. Also the entire goat herd was running up from the pasture toward the barn. Then my eyes caught sight of both Valentina and Cujo running toward the goats, stopping on the top knoll to look beyond the pasture from whence the goats (and fowl) had come. What a beautiful site to see both dogs standing there with such alert posturing! (I looked and looked and listened; but could not see nor hear anything that might have frightened the goats and fowl.) Neither dog made a sound...just stood there watching until the goats/fowl settled down and went back to grazing.

Now I've seen Valentina do this before but not Cujo. I am wondering if Cujo has started copying some of Valentina's instinctual behaviors of protectiveness toward the animals....


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## Maura

I think Cujo thought they were playing a game. His first instinct would be to chase the intruder. Instead, he followed Valentina, then looked back at what ever was there.


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## motdaugrnds

Cujo does have a prey drive and enjoys chasing both items I throw as well as animals he knows he is permitted to catch. Thus, I agree in that chasing an intruder was probably Cujo's motivator to be alert and find out what was down there. He has a keen eye for this! However, in this instance Cujo obviously could not see anything to chase. He was actually in front of Valentina as she was higher on the knoll looking out over the pasture. She obviously didn't see anything either because, if she had, I have little doubt she would have chased it...not because of a prey drive but out of a need to keep intruders away from what she perceives as her guards. 

Both dogs are working well together! Even during night hours I can sometimes hear Valentina and, when I look, Cujo is still sound asleep. Then sometimes I hear Cujo bark up a storm and, when checking, discover Valentina alert but making no sounds. It is rare when they are both barking/growling at the same time; and that is when I get my shotgun. (The intruder has never come onto the place as yet and, though I've seen large shadows at times, it disappears back into the woods.)


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## motdaugrnds

...updating...

Well, I have no idea what type of dog it was; however, both Valentina and Cujo were making such a fuss I knew it had to be something to check on. There it was with both dogs letting it know it was not welcome! The dog was large and all white with long fur. It was not at all afraid but was simply investigating my back pasture, walking along the fence line in back of my garden while looking toward my chicken house and walking along the 15' gate that leads into that back acreage. It peed twice back there so I know it was quite comfortable despite both my dogs' behaviors! (My dogs cannot get back into that part of my acreage because, as yet, I don't have a fence/barrier up that would prohibit them from crossing the creek that borders my property. Thus, all they could do was let that intruder know it was not welcomed.) Still, should that dog have found a way past the fencing/gate, I'm not sure what would occur. Neither of my dogs sounded aggressive...just territorial!

I really don't know how to deal with this other than alert the animal control. I don't want that white dog hurt; however, should it somehow get into a fight with my dogs, I don't want my dogs hurt either; and I would be foolish (with my lack of balance/agility) to attempt to break up the fight. Any suggestions?


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## Maura

Dogs will usually only get into it if they are on their own territory. The white dog seems to have no interest in fighting with your dogs. He is out for a walk, shows some interest in these new friends, then probably goes home. If he does get into the pasture he may very well show more interest in V and C than in the goats. If the white dog has no interest in dog fighting, he is most likely to be run off by your dogs, understanding their dog language and complying. You might want to ask your neighbors who has a big white dog. I&#8217;m sure the owner would not want their dog bothering your goats. They may not even know he is wandering.


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## motdaugrnds

Yes, Maura, I did ask around and a family who raise alpacas have two GPs. I did not talk directly to them; however, this dog did look like it could be one of those.

I had an experience this morning that lets me know beyond a doubt that both my dogs will not let 2-legged intruders on my place. I had found a nest of chicken eggs in the loft, asked my neighbor if she wanted them; and when she was coming over to meet me at the gate, both dogs let me know someone was up there. At first their barks were only acknowledgments; however, the closer she got to my gate, the more aggressive they were, winding up with both trying to get thru the fence with hair standing up on their backs. (I was actually concerned one or both might try to jump the fence; so I told my neighbor to step at least 5 ft back. This calmed the dogs somewhat.) Still both were letting me know that lady was not coming onto the place, even though they both let me go thru my gate without trying to rush to get her. whew!!!

I don't recall ever seeing Valentina acting like this before and only remember seeing Cujo like this when a stray dog found its way onto the property. What bothered me most about this was the fact that, no matter how loud I was, neither dog backed off. Well, they did back off when I went thru the gate; so I guess that's good.


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## aoconnor1

I have learned to completely trust my dogs instincts where humans are concerned. My dogs are very people friendly, but have never been wrong about a person they vocally dislike. That person always winds up being a problem. Every time.


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## motdaugrnds

updating...

Saw an interesting event today, a situation that could very well describe the difference between a "farm guard dog" and an "LGD" guarding an entire small farm.

It was a sunny day and everyone appeared content outdoors. Valentina and Cujo were both on the top of the knoll in front of my house where Valentina often stays. (She can see the entire front part of my farm from that strategic location.) 

Cujo obviously wanted to play; however, when he invited Valentina to play, she only acknowledge his invitation and then went back to being alert watching out over the acreage. I noticed she was looking past my farm over onto the neighbor's land where I have often seen wild turkey, deer and roaming dogs. Cujo accepted Valentina's negative response and stopped bouncing around her. Instead, he went and got a piece of limb he had been "shaking", laid down and started chewing that. ROFL (I looked but couldn't see anything that might have caught Valentina's eye; and by then she had laid down to continue her watch.)

I suspect a regular farm dog would have joined Cujo in the play; whereas this LGD refused thinking her watch over the animals was a priority.


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## aoconnor1

motdaugrnds said:


> updating...
> 
> Saw an interesting event today, a situation that could very well describe the difference between a "farm guard dog" and an "LGD" guarding an entire small farm.
> 
> It was a sunny day and everyone appeared content outdoors. Valentina and Cujo were both on the top of the knoll in front of my house where Valentina often stays. (She can see the entire front part of my farm from that strategic location.)
> 
> Cujo obviously wanted to play; however, when he invited Valentina to play, she only acknowledge his invitation and then went back to being alert watching out over the acreage. I noticed she was looking past my farm over onto the neighbor's land where I have often seen wild turkey, deer and roaming dogs. Cujo accepted Valentina's negative response and stopped bouncing around her. Instead, he went and got a piece of limb he had been "shaking", laid down and started chewing that. ROFL (I looked but couldn't see anything that might have caught Valentina's eye; and by then she had laid down to continue her watch.)
> 
> I suspect a regular farm dog would have joined Cujo in the play; whereas this LGD refused thinking her watch over the animals was a priority.


I love Valentina more every time I read another post. She sounds just fantastic. You have done an incredible job with her, I admire you much for that. Excellent!!


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## motdaugrnds

aoconnor, I really cannot take credit for Valentina's being an excellent LGD. I can only acknowledge the fact that, apparently, I didn't ruin her. Valentina has in-born propensities that came strictly from her genetics, i.e. the Bulgarian Legends. When I got her as a pup, she already had all she needed to become a great LGD in America. (Actually, because I picked her up at 8 wks of age, I could have stifled some of those magnificent qualities. I'm fortunate that, with the help of great people in this forum, I didn't.)

... updating ...

I saw something last night that concerned me. Cujo had brought some type of raw meat up to the back porch. (I never got a good enough look at it to identify it...just know it was raw meat and looked like maybe a torn-open mole.) When I offerred the two dogs their kibble (TOTW salmon) as I do every evening, Valentina went over and smelled of that raw meat; then went over to eat her kibble. Cujo picked up that raw meat and carried it to the bottom of the steps; then returned to gobble down his kibble. After Valentina got thru with her kibble, she headed toward that raw meat. However, Cujo got there just a second before she did and put his teeth on it. Valentina growled and I thought there was going to be a fight. (At that time I said "ehhhh" in a loud voice with a growling tone.) Cujo did not let go of that meat; and, instead, he carried it over to another spot to chew on it. Valentina looked up at me and I took hold of her collar and told her to sit. She did! A little later a similar occurrence ensued with Cujo winning again. (This time I did not interfere but just watched.)

These two events tells me this soon-to-be 2 yr old Karakachan will not hesitate to take what she wants; while at the same time, will respect assertiveness from both Cujo and myself. Golly! I'm real proud of this LGD!


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## motdaugrnds

...updating...

I cannot say this is what occurs with other "farm" dogs as I can only attest to what is occurring with mine. Cujo, as you all know by now is a full blood lab, complete with prey drive. He has *proven* to be a good "guard" dog for this farm against both 2 and 4-legged "possible" predators. Valentina, of course, is my LGD (Bulgarian Karakachan). What I saw occurring this morning has shown me, again, the *difference between a good guard dog and an "LGD" guarding a small farm.

*After tending all the animals this morning, I happened to look out my window to see Valentina walking slowly up toward the front gate. Cujo was about 15 ft behind her, also walking up toward that gate. When they both got to the gate, Valentina started down one side of the front fencing. Cujo took a few steps to follow, then stopped and headed slowly back down the drive to the yard. I watched the entire time as Valentina followed that front fencing all the way to the eastern fencing; then all the way down the eastern fencing to the back fencing; then across the back fencing toward the back yard. During her walk, which was quite slow, she would periodically stop and look out past my parameter fence toward the acreage on the other side where I've often seen deer, wild turkey, wild geese and roaming dogs. Valentina was quite focused on her walk and did not leave the boundary until she arrived back near the house/barn/yard. This tells me an LGD who has been taught the boundary lines takes it upon himself/herself to patrol such boundary lines without being told to do so. (There is "icy" snow on the ground this morning; yet this did not bother her.) _Of course, I caught her just as she returned and gave her a dried turkey tender for a treat!_

Once again, the inherit propensities of this breed serves this small farm well!


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## aoconnor1

I love reading your updates. I am living with your LGD vicariously through you! 

If I thought for one minute that I could have a dog like Valentina, I would be searching for one right now. But I know me...I hate leaving them out in bad weather, even if they have a good, solidly built dog house or place to go. I am a dumb softie on those cold, rainy or snowy nights, bringing my guys in and letting them be in the house being couch potatoes I am really bad about that I know that most of the LGDs are full coated and like being out rather than in...but....but.... Sigh. 

So I get to live with Valentina here, on the forum, and am glad that I have her here It's always an adventure to read what she is doing.


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## motdaugrnds

aoconnor, I'm glad to share Valentina with you. Enjoy!

I don't know your set up; however, if you have a nice cozy barn with deep bedding in it for "pet" goats, I suspect you might be sharing a few adventurous nights in there with them...and whatever LGD you had. (I've done this, especially when goat kids were newborns. It is fun letting them snuggle around my legs and climb into my lap.)

With the weather as it is here, even with the nice plush bedding in my barn, I still get concerned about my dogs, especially Cujo because his hair is short and he doesn't handle cold weather as well as Valentina does. With ice and snow on the ground as it has been here the last couple of nights; and with the wind whipping around as much as it can and the artic chill factor at rather dangerous levels, I've been inviting BOTH dogs into the trailer. Valentina is always hesitant to come in and wants out periodically just to sit on the steps and look/snell/sense at whatever she can. Cujo wants to climb into my lap...all 85 lbs of him. He will put his head on the arm of my big easy chair and just look at me...never whining but letting me know he would like to climb into my lap. Soooo I get myself fixed so he cannot hurt me and motion for him to come on. He is up like a flash, drops to a down position and then will not move a muscle, staying there as long as I let him. When this occurs, Valentina will look at him, then put her nose on me wanting to smell my face. I will pet her and she will return to the other end of the trailer where their "indoor" beds are...lying there quietly until she decides she needs to check outdoors again. ROFL What a difference in these two!

I'm like you aoconnor1 in that I love to cuddle with my animals and will do so in the barn or in the house, whichever place is comfortable at the time.  I might add here, Valentina is really not the "cuddler" Cujo is, meaning she will not get into my lap or snuggle close to me for any length of time; however, she has started leaning onto me when I pet her, especially if I "firmly" hug her. At such times she will relax her entire body and it is obvious she is taking in my hugs. (This is different from Cujo in that he LOVES to be petted; however, he does NOT like firm hugs.)

Here it is nearing 6am and both dogs came in and very gently woke me up to ask to go outside. (Remember I've never house broken Valentina; yet not once has she used the bathroom in my trailer.) I let them both out and watched to see what they would do. Both urinated and then started walking around the back yard & goat pen. Cujo then went thru the "V" door into the garden/orchard area. Valentina went inside the barn for about 3 minutes and then followed Cujo threw that "V" door. I continued to watch; and in about 3-5 minutes both dogs came back out that "V" door. Cujo came on to the house and Valentina started reversing the patrolling she had done before, i.e. going down the fencing only this time from the back fence to the eastern fence to the front fence. I came on this computer to type this little addition and now am hearing Valentina make her barking/howling noises out at the front part of the property. Cujo is on the back porch. (It is extremely cold outside!) Will invite them both back indoors in a bit, hoping to get a few more hours of sleep prior to tending to everyone this morning....


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## aart

aoconnor1 said:


> I love reading your updates. I am living with your LGD vicariously through you!
> 
> If I thought for one minute that I could have a dog like Valentina,......


Ditto, big time!


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## motdaugrnds

updating....

This morning brought a new experience! As usual exited the trailer to tend all the animals with some raw chicken in my hands for both dogs. (This time I had decided to give them the remaining contents of this particular bag, which consisted of 2 "large" legs with thighs, 2 "small" legs with thighs and 2 parts of the back.) I decided to distribute them one piece at a time because I've seen Cujo make attempts to get Valentina's if she decides to walk a little distance from her food to eat part of it. This turned into something I was not expecting!

Both dogs standing within 2 ft of each other looking at me...I gave them each the smaller pieces first and Cujo ate his very fast...as usual...then I gave them the middle sized pieces, which Valentina laid on the ground to eat in her slow, methodical manner. Cujo ate his quickly and, the moment Valentina raised her head, he grabbed hers. She growled! Cujo ran about 3 feet and I called his name. He stopped! I called him back to me. (Valentina was still standing where she had been watching this interaction between Cujo and myself.) Cujo came over to me with Valentina's chicken in his mouth. I put my hand on that chicken and told Cujo to let me have it. He did! I showed it to Valentina and she immediately looked into my eyes to see what I was going to do. I offered it to her while Cujo watched. She took it. Then I watched both dogs while she ate it. Lastly I gave them each the largest two pieces; and both took theirs and walked in different directions to eat it. 

This tells me that, at least if I'm around, Valentina will not fight Cujo for food; and Cujo thinks he has the right to take what she does not have her mouth on. (He won't touch anything she is actually chewing on even when he is within inches of it.) I am wondering what would occur should I not be there! (Cujo certainly has the muscle over Valentina; yet she has quickness & agility over him.) I really have no idea what to do should these two actually start fighting each other as my poor balance and poor agility would negate my stepping in.........


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## aoconnor1

What a great interaction. I can see it so well in my mind, Valentina is such a good girl, but I do believe that if Cujo ever really she's it, his luck will run out with her submitting. Right now she's playing nice and asking mom's advice, but from what I've read, she may well just put her foot down one of these times and Cujo might lose!


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## motdaugrnds

Updating....

Well I don't know whether I'm happy or disturbed by what has occurred...

The last few months I've been seeing a very large, regal-looking, long-haired white dog slowly/calmly strolling around. I first saw it inside my back pasture up near my garden fence, an area where my two dogs cannot get to. (I believe I told you all about it in one of my posts not long ago.) Well, of late I have only been seeing it strolling down the paved state road running directly in front of my homestead. I'm alerted by the barks of BOTH my dogs and then notice their barking changes to sound more of a "territorial" warning. That white dog has taken to walking on the other side of this state road, will look over at my dogs but continue its stroll. (I really like the respect this dog is giving mine.)

Ok, this morning the same thing occurred; only this time Valentina found an opening in my fence and she squeezed thru it. Oh dear! I knew there was going to be a fight! I grabbed my prybar (which I use to walk with on uneven terrain) and headed up to the front gate. However, I did NOT hear a fight! I only heard "friendly" barks as both dogs smelled each other. Then the white dog continued on down the road (away from its home) and Valentina returned to my front gate.....WOW!

Needless to say, I took another piece of wire and fixed that area so Valentina cannot get thru it again!

Here is what that white dog looks like only the one strolling around my area looks larger and has its long fluffy tail half way up as it walks.


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## aart

Wonder if it's wanderer from somewhere fairly nearby or someone dumped it?


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## aoconnor1

Gorgeous Great Pyrenees!! Amazing what we "think? Is going to happen as opposed to what sometimes "does" happen! Silly Valentina, she was just saying HI!


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## Squeaky McMurdo

Quick LGD Union meeting? Lol


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## motdaugrnds

ROFL I do realize it was a funny situation...after the fact...However, I sure don't want Valentina to make a habit of getting off my place to "stroll" around with another LGD, even one as regal and respectful as this one seems to be....


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## motdaugrnds

updating....

What is going on here?

It has become apparent that neighboring white dog (GP I believe) and Valentina have become friends. I'm wondering if this new friendship is what is influencing what is now occurring: (Maybe it is just the adolescent stage Valentina is in?)

I'm pretty sure her mannerisms in the mornings are adolescent, i.e. The last couple of mornings Valentina has gone down stairs, turned around and either stands or sits just to watch me. (The prior habit I thought was down solid was that, when I opened the door each morning, both dogs would come running to stand on the back porch. Both would sit and wait for me to ascend the stairs with their "raw" meat of the day. Then I would call Cujo first. He would come down and take his meat. Then I would call Valentina and she would, then, come down and...not take from me but will go to where I toss her morning meal on the grass. Both would then enjoy their breakfast.) This particular morning both dogs did come running to the back porch; however, as soon as Valentina smelled the meal, she bolted down the stairs, turned around and just watched me. I stood there at least 3 minutes wondering how I should handle this because it wasn't right to make Cujo wait for his meal just because Valentina was acting up. When Valentina sat down, I decided I'ld had enough! So I told Cujo to stay, walked down the stairs, called Cujo and gave him his meat. Then I stood there at the bottom of the stairs looking at Valentina. She "immediately" dashed up to the top of the stairs, sat down and looked at me. ROFL I walked away a bit, then called her name and she came running down the stairs to get her meal. Now, I have no doubt this was an adolescent moment!

The new behavior that is disturbing me and I'm not sure how to deal with is Valentina's leaving the farm. The last couple of weeks she has discovered numerous areas where she could get UNDER the fence. So far she has not strolled around past about 100 ft from the farm when she returns to sit or lay at my front gate wanting back in. Since I live near a state road, I don't want to take any chance she might get hit by traffic, though we don't have a lot; so I have been walking up to let Valentina in the front gate. She happily comes in. I find and fix the spot where she got out. Next thing I know she's out again and sitting at my front gate. Again I let her in, find the spot and fix it. (You should see my fence line. It looks like a tornado hit it. The fence is still up well; however, I have so many logs and tree branches tied to the bottom of the fence in so many places, it certainly destroys the esthetics of my fence line.) [The only time Cujo has left with her is when the spot she found could be made large enough for him to follow her thru it, which has only been twice...so far.] Do you think Valentina has decided she doesn't need to stay with the goats anymore? (I realize we haven't had any predators for months now. Would this give rise to an LGD venturing?)

Any suggestions as to how to deal with this would be appreciated. [I just hope Cujo does not teach Valentina how to jump as I've seen him jump over a 3 ft fence with ease. This parameter fence is 4 ft, though and 6 in off ground; so maybe this is why Cujo has never jumped it.]


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## Maura

I think she doesn&#8217;t accept the same boundaries of her area as you do, namely the fence. This isn&#8217;t uncommon. She gets out and checks out the area, then wants to come back in. It&#8217;s all very logical in her mind. The good thing is she is not roaming. Remember there is at least one other dog leaving a scent just outside the fence, not to mention other wild creatures that may or may not pose a threat. Just keep fixing the fence.


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks Maura, I do keep plugging those holes where she gets out!

What I've become aware of is that she does appear to exit one area and make a wide sweep around my entire farm because I've seen her on the 3 sides I can see into. Then she waits patiently at the front gate with her tail wagging. When I let her in, she walks in as though she is quite proud of what she has done...though I could strangle her for causing me to worry.......


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## Squeaky McMurdo

Could you run a hot wire at the bottom of the fence to discourage her from going under?


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## motdaugrnds

Squeaky I'm opposed to using hot wires for any of my animals. I know others use them. It is just a personal thing for me.

...updating...

Valentina has not been outside my parameter fence now for quite awhile. I see her walking the fence line and can tell that, at times, she is looking for a way under the fence; however, I've apparently done a good job of closing off those avenues....so far.....(I am wondering what she is thinking about my doing this.)


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## aoconnor1

My guess is that after seeing the large white dog outside of her fence, she has decided that she, too, should be outside of her fence, and she has made it known it now belongs to her by going OUT and getting by with it. Hopefully she gets the idea that YOU are not okay with it, hence the plugged holes!

I have a couple of thoughts...which is pretty good for this early in the morning! 
....Have you actually seen her go under your fence? If so, have you gone out immediately and taken her back to that spot and discouraged her from going under it? I would let my dog know in no uncertain terms that it is not ok to leave in that manner. 
....not sure how you receive her back when she is at your gate, I don't know if praising her for coming back is good, as it may encourage her to leave again for the "coming back" praise. Or if I would quietly and calmly open the gate, let her in, and walk away as if to say, "I am not happy that you left, come in and go do your job now" kind of manner. Not harsh or unkind, just aloof sort of to say. Sheesh, I can't get the idea into writing!

Anyway, glad she has stayed on your side of the fence now for a while. Hope it stays that way...


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## aart

aoconnor1 said:


> My guess is that after seeing the large white dog outside of her fence, she has decided that she, too, should be outside of her fence, and she has made it known it now belongs to her by going OUT and getting by with it. Hopefully she gets the idea that YOU are not okay with it, hence the plugged holes!
> 
> I have a couple of thoughts...which is pretty good for this early in the morning!
> ....Have you actually seen her go under your fence? If so, have you gone out immediately and taken her back to that spot and discouraged her from going under it? I would let my dog know in no uncertain terms that it is not ok to leave in that manner.
> ....not sure how you receive her back when she is at your gate, I don't know if praising her for coming back is good, as it may encourage her to leave again for the "coming back" praise. Or if I would quietly and calmly open the gate, let her in, and walk away as if to say, "I am not happy that you left, come in and go do your job now" kind of manner. Not harsh or unkind, just aloof sort of to say. Sheesh, I can't get the idea into writing!
> 
> Anyway, glad she has stayed on your side of the fence now for a while. Hope it stays that way...


It's a toughy...scolding for leaving while praising for coming back...Catch22. You almost have to _catch_ them leaving to effectively scold the escape... or bring them back in, take them to the 'hole' in the fence, point at it and say nonono, then block the hole. 

I hope she stays put for you. Agrees she went out because of the other dog.


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## Hdunc20

Pretty and fluffy


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## motdaugrnds

Hdunc20 ?? Wrong thread?


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## motdaugrnds

...updating...

The venturing has continued. I plug one place and she finds another. I've literally gone all around my fence line and into ditches to close off avenues of escape. And when I think I've covered it all, she finds another. Thus, I've taken to placing folded chicken wire under the logs I've been using. This is working!

When Valentina does get out, she now stays gone 5-10 minutes before she is at the front gate wanting back in. I'm wondering if she is bored! (I remember my German Shepherd, Cherokee, would create fun for herself by playing the same games the young goats would play, i.e. running across the acreage to jump up onto an old oil drum and playing king-of-the-hill. Cherokee would actually run "with" them...not chasing them...jump upon on that oil drum and "push" the young goats off. This apparently was her way of not being bored.) At this time there are not any young goats on my place and only 3 total adult goats. Do you think she doesn't have enough to do? (Wish I was a "dog whisperer".)


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## wiscto

I don't know, if she's coming back that quickly I would not bet on boredom, even though she is pretty young. Could she be responding to some territory marking, to make sure that pyr knows where her side of the line is?

Random story, since dog talk is half the reason I'm here. If we had our lab cooped up for too long on a busy weekend, that dog would suddenly became Lewis and Clark. One time she got 15 miles away in about a half hour. The guy called and we all looked at each other like he was crazy, then we all looked at her empty pen where I had "just seen her." Why was she in a dead sprint in the middle of summer without her little kiddie pool to jump in? Nooooo idea, but the guy did find her sucking down his GS' water dish like a camel. The GS thought he had a new girlfriend, but she was just interested in his provisions.


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## motdaugrnds

Wiscto, you may have hit on something as it reminded me of what occurred the last time I walked up to let her back in....I have 17 grown guineas that wonder "outside" my parameter fencing at varied times throughout the day. I've noticed Valentina stop what she was doing and walk toward them when they were running up and down the fence line looking for a way in. This particular time Valentina was coming back into the property when she stopped and looked toward those guineas which were squacking loudly and were NOT inside my property lines. She walked in their direction very alert. When the guineas stopped their loud noises, Valentina turned around and came on thru my gate.

I'm beginning to wonder if Valentina is leaving the premises to make sure the fowl are safe; and when she discovers they are, she returns. I still don't like her leaving; however, judging by the way she acts around the fowl when they're inside the property, she may believe it her job to check on them even when they are outside the property. (She is my first LGD so I'm still learning.)


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## wiscto

If that's it, great job Valentina, except for the whole stressing mom out and making her fix the fence thing. Has she barked out there at all?


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## motdaugrnds

Wiscto, I had not thought of her barking; but NO, I don't recall ever hearing her bark outside my fencing EXCEPT that one time she escaped thru a hole in my fence to say hello to that Pyre that was respectfully strolling down the road in front of my acreage. Her barks at that time were friendly as she and the GP smelled each other and then went their separate ways, i.e. the GP continuing down the road and Valentina returning to my front gate to be let back inside.

The time when I saw her being alert about the guineas' squaking, she did not bark either...just ran toward them and stood watching and alert until they stopped making that noise. (The noise was not what a guinea regular makes but was one of being disturbed by something.) I'm guessing whatever was disturbing those guineas was not seen nor smelled by Valentina.


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## aart

The checking on guineas theory is interesting...wonder how you can let her know it's OK for them to be outside the fence (assuming it is, cause hard to change _that_ guinea behavior)


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## motdaugrnds

oh nooooooooooooooo!

Valentina is in heat! I was hoping to get her spayed before she came into heat again; but it has become obvious I was too slow....Sure am glad Cujo was neutered last year!

Valentina was...was...still finding ways to get out and I was still fixing them. The last time was 2 days ago...I am hoping she was not in heat at that time. I had not noticed if she was; and Cujo was not acting as though she was; and no other male dogs were showing up. Anyway, she is definately in heat now; so I cannot take a chance on her getting outside my fencing until this heat cycle is over.....poor girl.....

I put a chain on her! It is quite lengthy and one that cannot be broken or pulled apart. So my days are spent moving Valentina around, i.e. inside the barn, outside the barn, in the shade of the trailer (on the knoll she loves), in the back yard under shade trees. OMG what an ordeal! (She is accepting this very well and lets me know when she wants to be moved; so between her telling me she wants a change and the weather...raining or not...this chain is keeping *my* nerves settled.)

How long should I wait after this heat cycle before I can get her spayed?


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## Maura

Call your vet. Once she is not in heat there is no hurry. A month after. Some time that is convenient for you and you will be able to keep her contained.


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks Maura. Will do!

I'm finding an extra amount of ticks on Valentina...not so much on Cujo. 

I have some flea/tick shampoo I will try as soon as weather is warm enough.

I put some Lavender essential oil on her underside (as much as possible with all that hair); and I thought having so many guineas and free-ranging chickens there would be few ticks...never saw so many on one dog; and with her hair so long and undercoat so thick, it is difficult to locate them until they have sucked so much blood out of her they are fat. 

Any idea as to how to stop this would be appreciated.


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## aart

motdaugrnds said:


> Thanks Maura. Will do!
> 
> I'm finding an extra amount of ticks on Valentina...not so much on Cujo.
> 
> I have some flea/tick shampoo I will try as soon as weather is warm enough.
> 
> I put some Lavender essential oil on her underside (as much as possible with all that hair); and I thought having so many guineas and free-ranging chickens there would be few ticks...never saw so many on one dog; and with her hair so long and undercoat so thick, it is difficult to locate them until they have sucked so much blood out of her they are fat.
> 
> Any idea as to how to stop this would be appreciated.


Flea tick shampoo _might_ help short term....but I use Frontline Plus, takes care of both pretty well around here and find staggering dying ticks wandering around on him then and no fleas ever. Didn't work in Tenn a few years ago tho, visiting my daughter with my dog, he got _absolutely infested_ with fleas even tho he had been treated not a week before we went and a bath a week before treatment so treatment would migrate properly.


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## wiscto

aart said:


> Didn't work in Tenn a few years ago tho, visiting my daughter with my dog, he got _absolutely infested_ with fleas even tho he had been treated not a week before we went and a bath a week before treatment so treatment would migrate properly.


:-\ Has there ever been a least useful, more aggravating species on this planet than a flea? I suppose ticks, chiggers, bed bugs, and mosquitoes are all in the running.


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## aoconnor1

I treat all of my dogs and cats with Advantage every month until the hateful little fleas are gone again in the winter. I hate fleas:-(. Thankfully we don't have ticks very much around the house, so my dogs stay pretty tick free. I do have horses come in with ticks though, I hate those danged bugs almost as much as fleas.


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## aart

Ticks are annoying.... and creepy...and scary because of the disease they can carry.

But fleas are the worst because they can live and reproduce in the house and it can take _months_ to get rid of them if you don't care to spread poison all over the place.


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## aart

Duplicate post


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## motdaugrnds

...updating...

A situation occurred yesterday that let me know how sensitive Valentina (and Cujo) actually are....

Since Valentina is not out of her heat cycle, I'm taking no chances with her; so I keep her on a 20 ft *strong* chain, moving her around periodically throughout the day. (She lets me know she does not like it while at the same time "tolerates" it.) Yesterday I decided to take Valentina with me on a walk across 2 acres to my mailbox. (She is extremely good at avoiding the chain as she walks.) On the way back I decided to let her have the entire length of the chain...big mistake! Cujo ran by her with his ball and she took off after him in a playful mood. Of course, this caught me by surprise and caused me to lose my balance. Over I went landing on my left side and hitting my forehead on the grass. Ouch! 

I laid there 1-2 minutes wondering what damage I'd done... Both dogs stopped their playful behaviors immediately. Cujo came over, laid his ball down and stood there watching me. Valentina came over and gently started sniffing my forehead. I stayed there at least 3 more minutes wondering how on earth I was going to get up and still hold onto Valentina's chain, which I had never let go of. 

As I started pushing myself up onto my feet, both dogs continued to stay very still just watching me; and on the way back to my trailer, Valentina walked very close to me and Cujo did not display excitement. This situation let me know both my dogs are sensitive about what happens to me....quite a shock! (I've not trained either of them to be a care-giving dog like I did Cherokee.)


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## wiscto

Ouch. I hope you don't have too big of a headache. Sounds like your dogs were one faint away from making a Lassie trip over to the neighbors for some help.


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## aoconnor1

Oh dang, that sounds like a headache in the making. I'm so sorry, but thankfully you know your two closest pals know when you are hurt and stay near you. That must have been a comfort....hope you are feeling ok and that you have no after effects of the fall...


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## aart

Oh Yikes! Hope you are feeling OK and there's no permanent damage.


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## motdaugrnds

I do appreciate all your concerns. Thanks.

My forehead didn't even bruise and no headache at all. (This has surprised me as I sure hit it hard!) The next day, however, I noticed a large bruise on my big toe on the left foot. I could hardly walk it hurt so bad. No it wasn't broken...maybe cracked...and I rubbed some mytholatum on it good, which took 99% of the pain away.  I also noticed I hurt in places that not hurt before; so I think I simply jarred my body and my muscles/bones told me not to do that again. Today I am just fine! I even walked across the acreage and hammered in two 8' metal posts. I think this completes what I need to do to keep Valentina inside when I let her off the chain.  

She is still too thin for my likes, though she is eating her kibble much better. Seems she just doesn't eat like other dogs I've had and her metabolism is apparently quite high because I know she is healthy and does not have worms. (At any rate in about a month off she goes to get another complete checkup; and I will have her spayed at that time.)

Again, thanks for the concern. My heart is warmed...


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## motdaugrnds

updating ... 

I'm liking this Karakachan more and more....

She is definately out of her heat cycle; so all I need do now is get her spayed, which is going to be soon! 

I have let her off the chain. She has continued to find ways to get UNDER my fencing; yet I've discovered it appears to be something she is *learning ?* about. Example: (This occurs all the time now.) I notice Valentina is OUTSIDE my front gate barking to get in. I walk up and let her in. Then I start walking the fence line to find out where she had crawled under this time. Valentina walks with me and goes directly to the spot where she got out. She puts her head down as though she will go under again and I say "uh uh". She stops, looks up at me and then backs back and sits down just watching me. I use whatever is near (rock/wood/wire) and fix the spot. The last time this occurred was a few days ago when I went shopping. Upon my return there was Valentina "outside" my front gate. When I got out of the van, she barked using the tone she always uses when she is trying to tell me something...a bit higher in tone than when she has noticed some unknown just outside the homestead. I opened the front gate, went thru and told her she could come thru. Then she went onto the grass nearby and laid down as I swung the gate wide open enough to get my van back inside. Later that day I took my small roll of chicken wire (3' cut lengthwise to make 1-1/2 ft strips), the wire cutters and a log and started walking the parameter fencing on the side I figured she had gotten out. Here comes Valentina; and again, leads me right to the spot. (This time my cat, Jet, had come out to watch. Jet is a "house cat"; yet apparently wanted to be near me as she meowed the entire time until she was about 3 ft from me. Then she laid down and waited until I was ready to go back to the house...strange cat!) 

Well, my fixing those spots seems to give Valentina some sense of accomplishment! (Now I know this sounds funny; yet I know of no other way for interpreting the joy...even pride...I see her demonstrating when she shows me the spot she had dug under and watches me fix it.) Seems to be a joint effort (hers and mine) to find all the escape routes and close them....Now don't laugh. This dog just does not act like other dogs I've had; so at this point, I wouldn't put anything past her intelligence...and spunkiness.

Another incident occurred just this morning. I fed both dogs their "kibble" (another new kind that both are eating...at least Valentina is eating it at this time. She seems to get tired of kibble quickly.). After they clean their bowls, I give them each a treat...This morning it was dried chicken filet...a small piece. I held Valentina's for her to get and, because she had not sat down, I would not let go of it. She had her teeth on it but did not take it. Cujo wanted to smell of it and Valentina growled. Now this growl was not like her other growls. It was so obvious she was simply telling Cujo that piece of dried chicken was hers. Cujo, of course, stopped trying to smell it. Then Valentina looked up at me and sat down; and that was when I let go so she could eat it. HeHeHe Mean aren't I !!!


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## Maura

It&#8217;s like having children, isn&#8217;t it?


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## Moboiku

Do you suppose she is finding weak spots in the fencing that make you vulnerable to predators getting in, and pointing them out to you? Then when you fix it, she is happy because now nothing can get in there.


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## wiscto

Got a pretty good laugh out of this one. Sounds like one of those "I just can't stay mad at you" things.


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## motdaugrnds

"...like having children..." Sure feels that way!

Moboiku, That is as good a way as any to interpret why she is doing what she's doing. I've never had a dog do this and it makes no sense to me; so I'm just enjoying her HELP...lol

Wiscto, glad you got that laugh...  I've actually been more "concerned" than mad at Valentina; and I'm thinking the "objective" way I've been handling her escape tactics may be the reason she is WILLING to show me where she gets out. (I've not praised her for doing this either!) Oh, I've noticed when I do get angry at Valentina, her whole body becomes more tense and alert; thus, I've learned to let go of my anger and replace it with calm emotions and assertive behaviors, which brings Valentina to a more submissive state.  Tricky aren't I ?

Here she is 2 yrs old. I know she has another year before I can say for sure what her character is like as an adult. I have been concerned about her adolescent stage as she sure has been trying to push my emotional buttons...growling (sounds like a "warning" that could lead into a bite yet hasn't) when I pull a deep-bedded tick off her, going down steps FIRST, then sitting and waiting for me to do what I would have normally done had she let ME go down first...didn't work..., taking an egg she found and waiting for me to give up so she could eat it...which I didn't do until after SHE GAVE ME THE EGG, even growling at Cujo (and me) at various times when she wanted us to know she was not liking what was occurring. All this time I've been hoping it doesn't get worse, i.e. doesn't turn into aggression. It hasn't so far! I'm thinking with all these months of testing MY resolve to stay in charge calmly & assertively and finding out my limitations for her remain solid, she has managed to find a way to fit into the needs of this farm in a manner that feels potent to her. I see her s-l-o-w-l-y walking up to the new born goats to sniff them & laying on the grass beside Jet, my house cat. I see her alert on the knoll watching out over the acreage. I see her jump up and run toward noises the fowl make when they have been disturbed by something. (I even see Cujo breaking up geese fights without hurting the geese; and he STILL has a heavy prey drive.). I've experienced her "warnings" as I tend to her physically in ways she is not comfortable with. Now I've come to realize she has some type of investment in helping me make sure the fencing is secure. I'm thinking she has gone thru most of her adolescence now with both pride in herself as well as respect for my expectations of her.

I'm wondering how this will all be affected by her being spayed....


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## aoconnor1

Oh my, Valentina is a smart girl for sure! At least she is working WITH you rather than AGAINST you!!! I do love your continuing thread about your life with Valentina and Cujo


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## motdaugrnds

updating...

Got Valentina an appointment to be spayed for the 20th of this month. (I am sooooo nervous about this as I know any type of surgery can go wrong; and this vet is new to me. My regular vet was going to charge me $362 and this vet charges $135-$145 depending on Valentina's weight.) I expressed my concern about this and the new vet told the receptionist to set Valentina's appointment up on a day when she has fewer clients. I am to take her in around noon and can pick her up the same day prior to 6 pm. (This told me this vet is sensitive, which has relaxed me a bit.)

I was looking at Valentina this morning thinking of the trip she will be making soon and decided she was too dirty to go see a doctor. (She has NEVER had a bath by me, only splashing water upon herself during hot days.) Sooooo.....with today being in the mid-high 80s, I decided today's the day! 

I filled my large bucket with warm water and wet Valentina down thoroughly while she stood very still apparently enjoying this. Then I lathered her well with a flea/tick soap. She took all this without any hesitation at all. Next, I took her out into the sunshine and chained her to a fence post where I could use the water hose to rinse her well. This, of course, was also new to her! I let her smell the end of the hose, then listen to the noise of the sprayer; then I let the HOT water run out of the hose before I started using it on Valentina. Next, I started maneuvering the nozzle in among her fur. She didn't really like this but permitted it without a fuss until I got up around her head. She would have preferred I not spray water around onto her neck and head; however, though she growled a little, she let me finish. Yeah!!!!! 

I'm thinking I will give her another bath closer to the 20th.


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## aoconnor1

motdaugrnds said:


> updating...
> 
> Got Valentina an appointment to be spayed for the 20th of this month. (I am sooooo nervous about this as I know any type of surgery can go wrong; and this vet is new to me. My regular vet was going to charge me $362 and this vet charges $135-$145 depending on Valentina's weight.) I expressed my concern about this and the new vet told the receptionist to set Valentina's appointment up on a day when she has fewer clients. I am to take her in around noon and can pick her up the same day prior to 6 pm. (This told me this vet is sensitive, which has relaxed me a bit.)
> 
> I was looking at Valentina this morning thinking of the trip she will be making soon and decided she was too dirty to go see a doctor. (She has NEVER had a bath by me, only splashing water upon herself during hot days.) Sooooo.....with today being in the mid-high 80s, I decided today's the day!
> 
> I filled my large bucket with warm water and wet Valentina down thoroughly while she stood very still apparently enjoying this. Then I lathered her well with a flea/tick soap. She took all this without any hesitation at all. Next, I took her out into the sunshine and chained her to a fence post where I could use the water hose to rinse her well. This, of course, was also new to her! I let her smell the end of the hose, then listen to the noise of the sprayer; then I let the HOT water run out of the hose before I started using it on Valentina. Next, I started maneuvering the nozzle in among her fur. She didn't really like this but permitted it without a fuss until I got up around her head. She would have preferred I not spray water around onto her neck and head; however, though she growled a little, she let me finish. Yeah!!!!!
> 
> I'm thinking I will give her another bath closer to the 20th.


Yay for the bath!! Good work motdaugrnds

Sounds like your new vet is a good one. Keep up posted as it comes up...

Thanks for another great update on Valentina


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## motdaugrnds

Sure will aoconnor1

I'm curious. Is there something I could be doing now for Valentina to assure her body is in the best condition possible for this surgery? I'm thinking maybe some type of vitamine?? (I know taking Vit A before and after surgery for humans aids the healing process.) 

I'm a bit concerned about Valentina's weight. Her metabolism appears to be high and she is such a picky eater that she does not have a lot of weight on her...I can feel her ribs thru that thick fur and apparent thick skin. (Maybe I'm concerned about nothing; but sure would appreciate someone talking about this. Do I need to be concerned about her weight, particularly at this time?)


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## aart

motdaugrnds said:


> Sure will aoconnor1
> 
> I'm curious. Is there something I could be doing now for Valentina to assure her body is in the best condition possible for this surgery? I'm thinking maybe some type of vitamine?? (I know taking Vit A before and after surgery for humans aids the healing process.)
> 
> I'm a bit concerned about Valentina's weight. Her metabolism appears to be high and she is such a picky eater that she does not have a lot of weight on her...I can feel her ribs thru that thick fur and apparent thick skin. (Maybe I'm concerned about nothing; but sure would appreciate someone talking about this. Do I need to be concerned about her weight, particularly at this time?)


My vet taught me to feel for the ribs, from the spine down towards the belly, when my Aussie was a bit overweight. He said you _should_ be able to feel the ribs around the halfway mark. It's different for different dogs depending on breed, age and individuals. He said alot of folks think that you should never feel ribs so they overfeed their dogs to an unhealthy overweight. 

I don't know if that helps at all, but it was enlightening for me. Has the vet that is going to do the surgery seen her and assessed her, they would be the one to ask.


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## wiscto

motdaugrnds said:


> Sure will aoconnor1
> 
> I'm curious. Is there something I could be doing now for Valentina to assure her body is in the best condition possible for this surgery? I'm thinking maybe some type of vitamine?? (I know taking Vit A before and after surgery for humans aids the healing process.)
> 
> I'm a bit concerned about Valentina's weight. Her metabolism appears to be high and she is such a picky eater that she does not have a lot of weight on her...I can feel her ribs thru that thick fur and apparent thick skin. (Maybe I'm concerned about nothing; but sure would appreciate someone talking about this. Do I need to be concerned about her weight, particularly at this time?)


As far as I've ever heard, feeling the ribs a bit is just fine...good actually. Valentina always looks really healthy to me in her pictures. If I remember right, you give her a bit extra once in a while. We used to have a random day every couple of weeks where we let our dogs binge a bit right before nap time. And on the flip side we always had a day every two or three weeks where they ate very little or nothing. Supposedly it helps their bodies mimic natural patterns and gives them a chance to purge unhealthy buildup of natural/unnatural toxins stored in fats.


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## motdaugrnds

Thank you Aart and Wiscto. I would still prefer she have a little more weight on her. I've noticed during the hot days her appetite is poor...but then so is mine as all I want is something cold to drink.

Updating....

Saw Valentina in action today against a predator...a flying predator that was after the baby geese. That black flyer did a little dive and Valentina jumped into the air with a loud growl. No she didn't catch it because it never finished its dive. It flew away instead. (This action of Valentina's surprised me as I didn't know she was even watchful for flying predators due to the many guineas I have flying around here. However, she apparently knew the difference between a flyer that belonged here and one that didn't.  )


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## aoconnor1

Good girl Val!!! Chase those nasty birds away.

My Blue Heeler/Blue Tick Hound cross boy will chase flying predators away. He has this scary deep barking growl thing he does when he chases a predator, if it were me he was chasing I would surely run away!


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## aart

motdaugrnds said:


> Thank you Aart and Wiscto. I would still prefer she have a little more weight on her. I've noticed during the hot days her appetite is poor...but then so is mine as all I want is something cold to drink.


Can't wait to hear what the new vet thinks of her weight.



motdaugrnds said:


> Updating....
> 
> Saw Valentina in action today against a predator...a flying predator that was after the baby geese. That black flyer did a little dive and Valentina jumped into the air with a loud growl. No she didn't catch it because it never finished its dive. It flew away instead. (This action of Valentina's surprised me as I didn't know she was even watchful for flying predators due to the many guineas I have flying around here. However, she apparently knew the difference between a flyer that belonged here and one that didn't.  )


GOOD GIRL Valentina!!! What was the 'black flyer'?


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## motdaugrnds

ROFL Aoconnor1 I can just see that beautiful blue dog of yours chasing a flyer; only in my mind you are chasing too yelling, get him boy get him...ROFL (There is just something wonderfully exciting about a dog's doing what it thinks it's suppose to with those wonderful growls!)

Aart, I have no idea what that black flyer was. I only know it was larger than a crow. (I know absolutely nothing about birds of prey around here, though I've often seen some large black birds sitting in my trees watching this place.) Cherokee use to jump in the air in an attempt to catch them and would even follow them across the pasture barking to make sure they didn't land...

Well, I'm counting the days until her surgery and making plans as to how to keep her cool afterward. (The days have been in the 90s here.) I don't want to just turn her loose when she gets home because her guarding duties may interfere with her healing...Guess I can put that chain back on her and not let her off the back porch for a few days. It would be easy to rig up some air flow there. OMG she didn't like that chain at all, just tolerated it.


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## aart

Maybe start some 'training' with the chain now....or a crate might work better.


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Today was suppose to be Valentina's surgery day; so last night I made sure she could not get anything to eat or drink starting at 11:30pm. This morning as I was preparing to get things ready to take her in, I called the vet's office asking if there was any place in, around or near that office where I could wait out the hours as I was to be picking her up around 6:00pm. It was less than 10 minutes when that office called back and changed her surgery date.

The receptionist told me she had told the vet I was going to be finding a place to wait those hours out until I could pick her up; and the vet told that receptionist to schedule Valentina's surgery for a week day when their office would be open all day, which would give me a comfortable place to wait. WOW Such sensitivity!

Valentina's surgery is now scheduled for 1:00 pm Thursday June 25th. The vet is a Dr. Kaye Geyer who owns this office and has over 25 yrs experience. She told the receptionist I was to bring Valentina in for the 1:00 pm surgery and Valentina's surgery would be a priority #1 done that day...that I could wait in the air conditioned lounge watching television and, as soon as Valentina came out of the anesthesia and was walking well and all looked well, I could take her home. *Now this is a vet I already like, though I've never even met her!.*


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## motdaugrnds

Updating........

Today was Valentina's day for surgery. I was an emotional wreck and, though she was to be in the vet's office by 1 pm, I was awake counting the hours at 4 am.......Duh! As bad as having a child go in for surgery!

The day was very hot...92 degrees...and my van has no air conditioning.....I sure was concerned about this!

I got everything ready, keeping my goats locked up and only letting out the chickens so I could open the front gate without problems. Then I opened the side door of this van and Valentina jumped in without any coaxing. 

Arrived at the vet's office and it was a totally different story as, when I got her out of the van, she was pulling hard on the leash AWAY from the door to the clinic. It wasn't long before I discovered she was trying hard to reach a grassy spot so she could pee...duh! After this she walked on into the office, though she was cautious in her movements thru the door. 

The technician came out with a leash, placed it around Valentina's neck without any problems and Valentina looked up at me with those beautiful trusting eyes. I said "Go on." and she went "slowly" with the tech while continuing to look back at me. It took me a few minutes to stop shaking...well, my nerves have been shot for awhile and this was taxing, so don't laugh!

About 5 minutes I asked about her and the tech told me she was in a "run" by herself...not a kennel; and that she was very calm about being there.

I sat in that cool lounging area for a few hours and was then told Valentina's surgery was over and the doctor wanted to talk with me. (I had actually wanted to talk with that vet before surgery; but this was probably best.) Dr. Kaye Geyer walked in telling me Valentina's surgery had gone very well without any complications. She said Valentina was now coming out of the anesthesia and as soon as she was walking well, the technician would help me get her into my van. 

I asked Dr. Geyer what her over-all impression was of Valentina's weight because that had been a concern to me. Dr. Geyer told me she was NOT UNDERWEIGHT and was a healthy dog. She said her metabolism was normal for a working dog her age and that, after this surgery, she will probably start putting on weight more easily. She told me to keep Valentina from running for a full week. She said Valentina probably will not be hungry this evening and should only be offered a small amount of food and* "a meat broth" *would be better. The doctor told me not to hesitate to call should I notice any swelling or oozing but that she didn't expect any such situation to occur. She also said *all stitches are dissolving ones and were on the inside...none showing on the outside of her body*. (I really did like the thorough way this vet dealt with my concerns and Valentina's needs.)

When the tech brought Valentina out, she was walking good but slow. She stepped up into my van with just a little help from the technician; and when we got home she stepped out of the van without hesitation. (I made the mistake of walking her over to her favorite watering pan and letting her drink....OMG I'm so foolish! Valentina put her feet in that pan and drank and drank and drank. Not 5 minutes later she threw it all up; and has not wanted anything to drink...not even the broth...since.) She has been home about 3 hours now; so I'm not pushing any food (or broth) her way; and I'm not letting her near water either. 

At this time I have her confined to an area where she can lay on her belly without getting any dirty, grass, etc. in it. (I actually rigged up a fan to circulate the air where she is; however, we had a storm pass over that brought some cooling rains.) I will put a leash on her and take her for a short walk before dark; then leave her where she is until morning. She is very calm and does not appear to be in any pain. I've seen her lay on her side, stand with ease, step up the one step in that area with ease and even lay on her belly...all without any noticeable discomfort.

Cujo obviously knows something is different as his usually excitable behavior is much more subdued.  I'm feeling so very blessed...again...not only by the work of this veterinarian but by Cujo's gentleness, the cooling rains and, of course, by the calm way Valentina took everything that occurred to her this day...*What a dog!*

Edited to add extra data you all might like to know: Valentina weighs 72 lbs.  The total cost for this surgical event was $130...yes only one hundred thirty dollars. (That other vet that neutered Cujo charged me $260 and had quoted me a price for Valentina at $362...WOW...what a difference!) This vet is going to be taking care of both my dogs from now on. 

Yep, here are some pics the tech took for me.


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## aart

Glad it went well and you're happy with the vet.
Best of Luck keeping that girl quiet for a week(that's the hardest part IMO).


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## motdaugrnds

Updating....

It's now been over 24 hrs since Valentina had her surgery. She has drank a little "thick" goat broth (about 1/2 cup at a time several times thru the day); has been out walking (less than 10 minute walks on a leash); has drank water several times (I limit that severely due to what occurred that first time after surgery.); and she has peed several times...always preferring grass for this.

She has been talking to me off and on today, a little growl and some "tiny" woofs. I have no idea what she is trying to say... And she has come over quite often for some pets.  She has, also, been alerted to noises outside that have concerned her, going to the windows & doors to look out. (She is calmly tolerating my control over her activities.)

I have alternated her resting places just to break up the day for her. Sometimes she is chained on the back porch with a fan circulating the air; and sometimes she is in the house with fans circulating. I let her sleep on the back porch last night and will again tonight because she really prefers to be outdoors and that is still a well protected area. Right now she is laying on her side stretched out in my living room. She is not breathing heavily and appears to be quite comfortable. 

I finally got a good look at her belly where the incision was made for the surgery. It is a well-shaven area with the long hairs on her sides cut short. The incision looks to be no more than 4 inches and I do not see any stitches. I don't see any swollen area on or around it either; and it is just slightly reddish (as one would expect such an area to be this soon afterward). There is absolutely no oozing and I do not see any signs of an infection.  (Was going to take a pic for you but thought it might disturb her; so didn't.)

She still refuses solid foods....


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Yeah! ! ! Valentina is hungry! She would not drink the broth but she took 3 pieces (tsp size) of goat meat out of my hands. She wanted more but because this was her first solid foods, I didn't let her have anymore. That was over 3 hrs ago and she has not thrown anything up. Unless I'm mistaken, this says her stomach is ready for a good meal. (She is still peeing good but I have not seen any bowel movements, quite possibly because she has not had any sold foods since last Wednesday night.)

The area had some dog hairs stuck to it this morning (hairs that had been combed out); and they seemed to be stuck in the incision; so I left them there. However, I poured some hydrogen pyroxide over that incision so anything unhealthy on those hairs is gone. HeHeHe (Valentina seems to know I need to check her stomach area; so when she is laying on her side and I come over, she turns to expose her belly to me. I check it over good and, of course, praise her.)

She wanted to walk around more today than yesterday; however, I didn't let her. Too many tall weeds she might walk over that could make contact with her stomach. I'm probably being too cautious; but better that than sorry later. Valentina has been more assertive today too, i.e. woofing when she wants to go pee...as by now she ought to know that is the only thing I let her do when she is walking. She is tolerating all this confinement very well though...for the most part.  And her incision looks like it is healing real well. (Cujo is still so sweet and gentle with her, though he did notice she showed more energy today and so he bounced around her a bit until I told him to stop. I'm sure he will be glad when she can play with him again.)


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## aart

Good to hear she is recovering well and cooperating, 
good opportunity for some 'training'.

I'd not use Hydrogen Peroxide, it can damage healthy tissue, especially new healing tissue.
It's good for the first initial antiseptic cleansing of a wound, but after that use something else.

Is she licking it, wearing the 'dreaded cone of humiliation' as we call it?


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## Maura

Glad your precious is doing well.

I second not using the HP for the same reason. You use it on a new wound only.


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks Aart and Maura. I've used the HP several times and have always used it sparingly in the past for most every type of scrape/cut (on humans and animals) because it has never caused problems but, instead, has done a good job keeping infections away. (Maybe I'm being a bit naive but why change something one has learned works well? I remember using it when Cujo was neutered and had started looking too red for my like; and the HP stopped that quickly. I also remember Cujo's incision area was more ragged looking than Valentina's is; but maybe that was because he was 5 yrs old when he was neutered.)

No, she is not licking it...knock on wood! I've seen her look at it and was ready to say "no" if she had started to lick it; but she never did. And she has not had to wear that cone either. The area looks like it is healing real well; and if she were licking it, I don't think it would look as good as it does. )

This morning she let me know she wanted off the "chain"; so after I tended to all the other animals, I put her on an extended "leash" and let her walk around in areas where the grass/weeds were still rather low. She was very polite on that long leash and not once did she try to run. (Cujo was staying with her but was not attempting to play with her. For some strange reason he kept looking at me and I started wondering if he was waiting for me to tell him it was ok for him to play with Valentina...??) I saw her pee and even have a bowel movement this morning. I checked her stool and there were no signs of worms or eggs. 

She drank some *very thick* broth (mixture from roasted goat drippings and chicken drippings). She still will not eat her kibble, though I've seen her smell of it several times. At present I have some large chicken quarters thawing out for her. My goal is not to get her to return to eating kibble, which she was eating "reluctantly" even before her surgery. My goal is just to keep her body functioning well while she heals...and if I need to feed her some choice pieces of what I have in the large deep freeze, I will do just that. Once she has sufficiently recovered from this ordeal, then I'll let her know she is expected to eat the dry kibble or do without, which prompted her to start eating it again before surgery. I do believe feeding raw is ideal for dogs; yet it is not always practical.


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Valentina is doing very well. Her incision is just slightly pinkish...not at all infected. She even took a few bites of her dry food this morning...before I gave her nearly half a raw chicken this afternoon. 

Here she is resting peacefully with my cat, Jet....I won't let her lay down on anything but the back porch and my floors; and she *tolerates* her limitations very well.


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## aart

Just a few more days!
You're doing a great job with her, as usual.


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## Maura

HP is great with a fresh wound. It is harmful after that. You can use lavender e.o. if you feel the need to put something on the wound other than wash it. I&#8217;ve found that frankincense is wonderful for wounds. Honey is also.


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## motdaugrnds

Aart, thank you for the compliment. I really think Valentina is having to put up with a lot from me she probably wouldn't need to from one more knowledgeable. Together, though, we are doing rather well. 

Maura, I've come to the conclusion you (and Aart) are right about the HP. I had let Valentina on the long leash and she walked over some rather tall weeds. When I checked her later, the incision looked ummm agitated; so I poured some HP over it. Shortly thereafter it looked even more pinkish. I think now the HP irritated it. (I'm learning!) I rinsed it well with warm water and this morning the area looks *real good....

*I do have some Lavender EO, some colloidal silver and some raw honey. I think she just might start licking the raw honey; so I won't use that at this particular time. (I'ld love to get some more frankincense because I know how well that EO works...used it on some itchy...non-malignant...moles last year and the moles totally disappeared. Will get some more of that soon as I can.)

Aart you're certainly right about this week's difficulty, i.e. keeping Valentina from being active has been the most difficult part. In doing this I've learned how sweet natured she actually is...far from that little ball of *ferocious* fur she was the first few weeks I had her...remember?


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## motdaugrnds

Yeah!! Valentina is now off the chain!!

Valentina's surgical area has healed beautifully; and since it has been a very wet/rainy day, I took her off the chain. (I put Cujo on the short chain so he would not entince Valentina to run. HeHeHe) The weather us kept her activity to a minimum; and just before I took the chain off her, I rubbed her undersides with Lavender EO because I understand such will deter insects.  

She has been loose and free to go wherever now for about 3 hours. It has been quite peaceful here without any outside disturbance; so all Valentina has done is *walk *around and *watch*. (I'm going to alternate that chain Cujo is on with Valentina for another few days; because I have no doubt that, when they are both loose, they will play roughly and run a lot; so I want to keep this to a minimum for awhile longer...just caution on my part.) Valentina has been a sweetheart thru all this; and so has Cujo.


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Today was quite eventful in that two situations occurred that are both rather confusing.

First off I've noticed Valentina "run" yet NOT rough house with Cujo, even when invited. I walked up about 500 ft to the mail box with both dogs. This is often when Cujo wants to play roughly with Valentina and, in times past, she would take off after him to play as rough as he. Since she has been off leash (as well as Cujo) I was a bit concerned; yet what occurred was quite different. Cujo was his usual excited self wanting to run and play; yet when Valentina was invited by him to do so, she would jump around only a second and then stop, wait a few minutes and then continue *walking*. (She was not by my side nor in back of me but was 5-10 ft in front of me apparently knowing exactly where I was going.) They then both waited at the gate while I went past after the mail and, upon the return trip, the very same thing occurred. I don't know if Valentina is still feeling rather vulnerable due to her operation or if she is remembering they both knocked me down awhile back...come to think of it, I have not seen her accept Cujo's invitation to play around me while I was walking in some time. 

The second situation was when I heard Valentina barking in the orchard. It was a bark that told me she didn't like something. So I went out and there she was looking up into a tree and trying to jump up toward one of the limbs. Upon close examination I saw a dark object clinging to the limbs that both hissed at me as well as "mumbled"...well I cannot think of anything else to call that sound. I went and got my hoe and let Cujo thru the gate and they both were invested in bringing down whatever that dark thing was. When I put my hoe on the branch and shook it hard, that dark thing fell to the ground and Valentina (yes Valentina; not Cujo) grabbed it first. Then Cujo grabbed at it. It was hissing and mad with sharp-looking teeth. Neither dog were able to grab it although both sure tried; so I took my hoe and numbed it by hitting it in the head. That is when Valentina grabbed it and dragged it about a foot before dropping it and looking at it. Cujo was watching; and when Valentina dropped it, Cujo grabbed it and pulled at it. (I decided it might wake up so I killed it with my hoe.)

Here are a few pictures and I'm hoping someone in here can identify this animal. I thought it might be a possom but I didn't know possoms had teeth like that or a furry tail. Then I thought maybe it is a badger. Do badgers actually climb trees? Or is it a porcupine? (I've never seen a porcupine but will google that because Valentina is now rubbing the left side of her mouth and I'm wondering if she got a quil in it ... or something. I didn't see anything when I looked.)

What was surprising about this was the fact that it was in a tree and, when it fell, the dog who does not have a prey drive is the one who attacked it first. (Albeit they both worked well together. Right now it is laying in an area both dogs can get to easily yet neither has attempted to eat it or do anything with it. They seem quite satisfied with the fact it is dead.)


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## Squeaky McMurdo

It's a marmot. Aka wood chuck, rock chuck, groundhog. Yes, they can climb trees. They like to eat the bark and looooove fruit so that's probably what it was doing in your orchard.


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## Squeaky McMurdo

Oops. Double posted


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks Squeaky, had I known it was a ground hog just wanting fruit, I would not have killed it. I thought it was after my fowl.  Golly I feel so bad about harming it. When googling it, I find it can even be had as a pet....


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## aart

motdaugrnds said:


> Thanks Squeaky, had I known it was a ground hog just wanting fruit, I would not have killed it. I thought it was after my fowl.  Golly I feel so bad about harming it. When googling it, I find it can even be had as a pet....


Don't feel _too_ bad, they can be quite destructive...they can devastate vegetable gardens and can dig gigantic holes deep under building foundations. Hard to trap and/or stalk.


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## wiscto

What's on the back of his neck? If that's not a bullet hole and it isn't from Valentina's tooth, it might be worth it to get the dogs checked out. Sore + bald spot makes me think mange. It probably isn't, but might be worth a look.


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks Aart. I do feel better knowing that it could have done a lot of damage.

Wiscto, I'm glad you are so alert; however, there is no need for alarm. The spot you see in the picture on the back of his head is the damage I did with my hoe when helping the dogs kill it. The groundhog actually looked quite healthy and I was even tempted to skin it or gut it to feed the dogs; however, they showed absolutely no interest in it after it was dead.


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## wiscto

motdaugrnds said:


> Thanks Aart. I do feel better knowing that it could have done a lot of damage.
> 
> Wiscto, I'm glad you are so alert; however, there is no need for alarm. The spot you see in the picture on the back of his head is the damage I did with my hoe when helping the dogs kill it. The groundhog actually looked quite healthy and I was even tempted to skin it or gut it to feed the dogs; however, they showed absolutely no interest in it after it was dead.


Good news! Maybe you can dress it up like a chicken first? ;-)


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## Squeaky McMurdo

Well, my husband, who enjoys celebrating his Scottish heritage by wearing a kilt, once skinned one to make into a sporran (the crotch bag thing) and it was sooooo greasy! I don't blame your dogs for not wanting to eat one :yuck:


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## motdaugrnds

Well, the chickens/guineas/geese did not turn up their noses at it. I found it this morning in the same place I had put it and there was nothing left but fur, bones and teeth...even the fur looked like much of it was missing......

Updating...

Valentina is her old self again.  I walked up to the mail box and stood in the shade of those old black walnut trees watching both dogs play. Valentina was *running as fast as I've ever seen her; and believe me that is very, very fast.* There was no way Cujo could catch her; and it was the first time I've seen Cujo stop the play first. Guess he got tired of Valentina's running as there is just no way he can keep up wit her.

Valentina has returned to eating the kibble (still TOTW) with a few raw eggs throughout the week. She still isn't gaining weight that I can tell. Cujo is, also, still eating well and is NOT gaining too much weight.  Both dogs are as they were prior to all the surgeries they've been through,i.e. guarding the place and enjoying life here.

Oh and a REAL BIG POSITIVE: Valentina (nor Cujo) has left the premises. I am thinking all the possibilities of their going UNDER the fencing have been plugged well.


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## wiscto

Hey I have a question. Does Valentina do much body blocking/checking with her shoulder? I have no idea what kind of scenario I'm looking for here. Maybe like if Cujo is about to bother the goats?

Only reason I ask is... My current neighbor dog sits two massive St. Bernards. The male is 220 pounds. Every time I go outside, the male gets up (looking at me) and the female body checks him and starts licking his ear. I'm getting paranoid, and I'm starting to think I owe the girl a big steak. I've never really seen that kind of thing in person. Usually the dogs I'm around know me.


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## motdaugrnds

Wiscto, I'm not clear on what you're describing. When you go outside, are you walking *toward *your neighbor's place...the one who owns those 2 SB?

I'm thinking maybe you're asking if one dog is protecting you from the other. However, the one dog's licking the other tells me she is trying to sooth some irritation...maybe that is what you're picking up on. 

Has the male SB ever tried to attack you, growled at or even barked at you?

As for Valentina's behavior when she believes something is headed toward one of her charges, she *charges....* And if it is a predator, Cujo is right behind her growling. I've not seen Valentina let anything unknown to her get close enough to "body block". (As for Valentina "checking" Cujo's behavior, there is never a reason for her to do that.)


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## wiscto

thanks. Yea unfortunately they're tied up about 15 yards away and when I walk out to my car I am walking right at them. 

He barked at me the first time he saw me, but the owner said he would get over it. I don't know about that. It sounded to me like he had that larynx surgery to quiet him, and I think he just gets frustrated with his barks. I get the feeling he's done making his point the nice way, and now he wants to tackle me. I don't like my odds against a 220 pound dog, I mean he weighs the same as I do. I'm going to boss talk him tomorrow and see if I can make him sit while he's tied up. That way if he gets loose I have some idea how to handle him. I just don't like the way his sister is reacting when he gets up. They're tied, but, he's huge.

My neighbors are close. It's been a real motivating factor in getting out of town. I'm down to a year I think, and then I'm out of here. For now I have to settle for escaping out to my parents'.


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## motdaugrnds

Wiscto, were I in your situation, I would NOT do what I'm hearing you say you're going to do, i.e. "...boss talk..." that dog. The reason I wouldn't is that, should something occur and there be a lawsuit of some sort, you could be seen as having "irritated" that dog. So my suggestion is that you simply ignore him...as Cesar Millan would say, "no talk, no touch, no eye contact". Since you've already spoken with the owners (and with only a year to go) just keep control of your own paranoia and ignore those dogs.  Then if one or both do get loose, you are not liable because all you've done is what you've always done, i.e. ignore the dogs and walk straight to your car, get in and drive off.


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## wiscto

Yea that's a good point. Luckily my better instincts kicked in this morning. I feel kind of stupid right now. Everything I knew about dogs just went out the window with this guy. I think probably because I haven't felt powerless around a dog in a long time. He is a huge friggin' dog. He kind of gets that look on his face, holding his head a little lower when he gets up, sort of makes my brain think "WOLF! WOLF!" I think you're right, have to get control of my paranoia here. I'm going to take this one as a lesson I didn't know I needed to learn.


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## Maura

Having that dog tied is only making him more aggressive. If he was loose he would come over, sniff you, then either walk away or expect petting. I believe the female is calming him.

If I was to have any communication with the dog, I&#8217;d toss a couple treats. When I see he is more interested in the treats than in seeing me as a threat, I&#8217;d ask for a sit and toss another treat. Work both dogs with sit and treats. Just remember every time you visit the neighbor to bring some kind of treats with you.

If you don&#8217;t want to go that route, then ignore the dog, turn your head. Don&#8217;t look at them. If your head is turned, giving the dogs your profile, that might be enough to over ride the fact you are walking straight towards them.


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## wiscto

Thanks guys. I read all this earlier and talked to the neighbor about being introduced to the dogs. I told him I would prefer to do it when the owner is back, give the big guy a little more sense of security...depending on the owner I guess. Hopefully I'll get to give them some treats.


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## aart

I had a stranger 'boss talk' my dog once, it worked like a charm. 

Fearful mail carrier had 'taught' my normally friendly dog that barking/growling caused a great fear reaction and she started trying it on everyone.....one day she went running growling barking at someone across the street, that woman stopped, stepped forward and yelled 'don't even think about it'...or something like that... in a very dominant voice. Dog put on the brakes big time, slunk back home and never tried it with anyone again. I thanked the woman.

Not the same situation, I know, and could go very wrong with certain dogs...but it was funny as hell and a interesting example of fear reactions between dogs and humans.


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## motdaugrnds

Aart, I love that story! And I have no doubt some humans can "boss talk" a dog very well with positive results. I, also, know some may "try" and the results would be quite different.


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## wiscto

Hahaha! Run away little doggy. I do think it works sometimes, but this guy is more defensively aggressive, I think. Yesterday morning I was about to boss talk, and I realized I might just convince him that I am actually a threat. 

I haven't seen many St. Bernards in my life, and I'm kind of glad I got to see this guy before I start trying my hand at LGDs. Looking at 200+ pounds of healthy horse dog is a little different.


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## JasoninMN

My female lab would do that same behavior every time my male dog would go towards people. It was nothing more then her being an attention dog. If it were aggression, dogs usually feed off each others energy, I think she would be acting aggressive as well.


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## motdaugrnds

Well, I've seen both Cujo and Valentina lick each other's mouths and it was obvious they were simply being affectionate and/or trying to find out what the other had eaten. ROFL 

Updating...

Had a situation here this afternoon when I heard Valentina doing her half bark and half howl, which always lets me know something needs attending to. I walked outdoors and heard one of my goats yelling down there. In looking around I knew it was the young yearling doe with the horns; and she has often had her horns trap her when she put her head thru the field fencing to eat something she finds desirable. Yes there she was! I cut the fence with the wire cutters and she pulled her head out. Then I looked over at Valentina, who was now sitting quite close. I started talking to her and she came over to sit near me and started her little growls/woofs like she has started doing at times. (I figured she was trying to tell me I was a little slow getting down there. ROFL)


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## wiscto

She's probably not a big fan of that fence at this point, lol.


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Wiscto, you've brought to mind a situation that has been occurring here now for over a month. I thought it was due to the hot weather; but now I'm not so sure....

Ever since I've had guineas, they have always ventured off the property to explore 100-200 ft of space beyond my boundary fence. They are seen traveling up the drive to the front gate, flying up to sit on top of that gate and then jumping off for their excursions. Since by evening I'm seeing them return the same way and meander on into the chicken house to be shut up for the night, I never really concerned myself with their adventures.

What I've become curious about is that, for over a month now I've not seen the guineas exiting over that gate. I've actually not seen them outside my parameter fencing on any side. What I have seen is Valentina's laying up there in front of that gate. I never really thought much about it because I know it is a very cool place during the heat of the day as it is in the shade of some old black walnut trees where a breeze is often blowing. Now, I've began to wonder, since Valentina knows she cannot get under my fencing anymore, is she laying up there to keep the guineas from leaving? Now don't laugh. You know by now this dog's behavior is quite weird at times.


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## wiscto

Sounds entirely plausible, honestly. And still pretty funny. What an awesome dog. 

I'm a little disappointed. Didn't get to meet the big dogs. I was gone when the owners came back from their trip. I did test the waters of talking to the neighbor right in his yard. It looked like they got comfortable with the idea fairly quickly.


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## aart

I don't think that's weird behavior at all, she's doing her job keeping your birds where she thinks they belong.

Are they going out another way now or staying inside the perimeter fence?


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## motdaugrnds

Aart, not one of my guineas have I seen off the premises in a very, very long time. I've seen them walk about half way up the drive, then venture to the left or right, getting lost in the pastures for awhile, then chasing each other as they return to where all the water dishes are. And not one of them is missing...


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## ModenaMeg

How did you find out about this breed? What is country of origin?
Thanks


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## motdaugrnds

ModenaMeg, I found out about this breed simply by doing a lot of research into the different LGD breeds. Valentina is a Karakachan from Bulgaria. Only two breeders that I know of have gone over to that country and returned with this dog. These breeders are keeping the breed pure in America. (If you google Karakachan you'll find quite a few youtube videos on the workings of this breed.) This is my first LGD; however, I don't see how any other LGD breed can be any better for my place....of course, now I'm quite prejudice. 

Here are a couple of URLs to get you started:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karakachan_(dog)

http://karakachandog.com/


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Have discovered something occurring that is somewhat different and can only guess at its meaning...This has been happening every time I go outdoors and walk any distance; and at first I didn't think much about it. What occurred the last few times has me wondering....

Valentina is not as playful as Cujo; however, when Cujo invites her to play, she will sometimes accept. When she does she bounces all over him standing upon her hind legs and grabbing him with her front legs. They bounce around together awhile wrestling, then she takes all running and Cujo chases her. This is her usual method of playfulness. What I've noticed of late is that Valentina is NOT playing in the same way and what she does do doesn't look like playfulness at all....

What occurs around me now as I'm walking any distance is Cujo with his normal playful behaviors enticing Valentina to play with him; however, Valentina will only acknowledge his invitation and then she growls. She is not rising upon her hind legs and grabbing Cujo with her front legs. Instead, she is using her mouth to grab him by his collar. If Cujo stops his excited playfulness, Valentina will let go and all is calm. If Cujo continues his usual playfulness, she will continue to growl and grab his collar until he does calm down...sometimes with my help in telling Cujo to "hey, settle", which is the command I use when he is too excited around my feet. (I walk with the garden hoe to help me balance and keep some of the weight off my right hip; so I'm not as stable as I would like to be with bouncing/playful animals around me.) Now, maybe I'm just seeing/interpreting what I'ld like; however, I'm attempting to look at this objectively. In doing so, I cannot see Valentina's behavior at these times as playful. They look more serious to me. Have any of you seen this type of behavior with an LGD? If so, how do you interpret it?

As to another situation: I've changed the food for these two dogs. Cujo easily gains weight; so I switched him to "4Health" (a dry kibble without grain and with only 8% crude "fat"). Valentina still eats only small amounts at a time and stays too slim for my liking; so I am alternating her food: Still TOTW (20% crude fat) with another dry kibble "Natural" (25% crude fat). She likes to eat 3-4 times a day. Both dogs appear to like the taste/texture of their kibble and Valentina is eating this dry stuff better than she was a few months ago. Will see if this does what I want for both dogs. (They are so sweet to leave each other's food alone and only eat what I give each of them.  )


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## aoconnor1

Very interesting new deal with Valentina! I would imagine she is a sensor dog, one that recognizes strength and weakness, and adjusts to either accordingly. Our old GSD that we had several years back was this way. He could sense when I was ill or injured and would act or protect accordingly with either my husband or myself. 

Keep us posted as to how she is behaving! I do a lot or lurking/reading, this one got my interest and I wanted to pop in and say hi


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## Maura

Have you tried stepping away from them when Cujo invites play? If Valentina is protecting you, she may stop if you are out of harm&#8217;s way.


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## motdaugrnds

hmmmm a "sensor dog". I've never heard that term. I do understand what you're saying, though, in that my "mix" Apache Rose was somewhat like that. I don't know if she sensed my weakness but she sure knew when to step between me and something else. Actually I've had two goats do this as well, a Nubian butted a bouncing dog off me and a Toggenburg arranged herself between me and a dog running up to say hello to me.

"stepping back"? With Cujo bouncing around me, I would have no idea where to step....When this occurs next time I'll see if there is some direction I can step that will be away from Cujo and then watch to see what occurs.


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## wiscto

Maura said:


> Have you tried stepping away from them when Cujo invites play? If Valentina is protecting you, she may stop if you are out of harm&#8217;s way.


Smart. I doubt she's forgotten the fall, she might be worried about that.

Also, she's getting older and her idea of when play time is acceptable will change. Maybe she thinks walks are time for work. If Cujo is on a different page, and he is interrupting her focus on smells and sounds, she would probably want to correct him.

My labs were way too playful for most dogs they interacted with. If the other dogs got sick of them I just threw their kongs and usually they all left each other alone then.


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## aart

Interesting..my first thought was that she's growing out of her puppydom and may be less likely to play. Didn't think about the 'she's 'working' aspect, which may include monitoring you, makes a lot of sense.

Do they still play when she's not 'working'?


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## motdaugrnds

Yes, it is sure obvious she is more mature and does not want to play as much as Cujo does. Yes she still plays with him, mostly wrestling a short time, then plopping onto the ground for him to show his dominance, then jumping up and running so fast Cujo cannot possibly catch her. Cujo gives up then as all that running wears him out.

Valentina's interaction now at these certain times when I'm out walking any distance does appear to be her way of correcting him. I'm just not sure if she is actually protecting me from being knocked down. That idea seems a little far fetched to me. Now I've had dogs protect me from other animals (2 and 4 legged); but never that I can remember has a dog protected me from a "playful" dog that belonged on the place. Well, actually I was rough housing with Cherokee once when Cherokee was a puppy. I was playfully slapping her jaws to make her mad; then when she got mad I would scoop her up and praise her. Cherokee was different from other shepherds I had done this with in that, when Cherokee got mad, she was ferociously angry. (I never did her that way again.) At that time both Apache (shepherd mix) and my 5 yr old Nubian doe came over obviously ready to pounce on Cherokee. [That event does seem different though than what is occurring now.]

I have not felt good of late so am not putting as much effort into understanding this situation at the time it is occurring. The pain in my hip (and now the pain/swelling in my ankle bone) is all I can cope with when I'm outdoors tending to the farm. Hopefully this will all be taken care of with that hip implant. Of course, after that surgery I may not even need my dogs to walk calmly around me.


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## aoconnor1

motdaugrnds, there are service dogs that sense things with their owners. Think of the service dogs that can sense when their human is going to have a grandmal seizure, the dog alerts and the person knows to lay down...they keep their human from from suffering a fall during a seizure, and they actually lick the saliva out of the humans mouth to keep them from choking on it. It is an amazing thing! There are also sensor dogs that alert to human heart conditions, epilepsy, etc. If you look online, you can find many different service dogs used for things like this. 

It could very well be that Valentina is a sensor, knows you are hurt and unstable, and keeps you from being knocked over by nutty boy Cujo


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## wiscto

motdaugrnds said:


> Yes, it is sure obvious she is more mature and does not want to play as much as Cujo does. Yes she still plays with him, mostly wrestling a short time, then plopping onto the ground for him to show his dominance, then jumping up and running so fast Cujo cannot possibly catch her. Cujo gives up then as all that running wears him out.
> 
> Valentina's interaction now at these certain times when I'm out walking any distance does appear to be her way of correcting him. I'm just not sure if she is actually protecting me from being knocked down. That idea seems a little far fetched to me. Now I've had dogs protect me from other animals (2 and 4 legged); but never that I can remember has a dog protected me from a "playful" dog that belonged on the place. Well, actually I was rough housing with Cherokee once when Cherokee was a puppy. I was playfully slapping her jaws to make her mad; then when she got mad I would scoop her up and praise her. Cherokee was different from other shepherds I had done this with in that, when Cherokee got mad, she was ferociously angry. (I never did her that way again.) At that time both Apache (shepherd mix) and my 5 yr old Nubian doe came over obviously ready to pounce on Cherokee. [That event does seem different though than what is occurring now.]
> 
> I have not felt good of late so am not putting as much effort into understanding this situation at the time it is occurring. The pain in my hip (and now the pain/swelling in my ankle bone) is all I can cope with when I'm outdoors tending to the farm. Hopefully this will all be taken care of with that hip implant. Of course, after that surgery I may not even need my dogs to walk calmly around me.


Ouch, sorry to hear that about your hip. Well, if she's not worried about them knocking you down again, my money is still on her just feeling like walks are serious business. I don't know. I still have no experience with LGDs, but they sound like pretty serious dogs.


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Had an experience this afternoon that let me know for sure Valentina is taking my walks seriously. With what I saw her do today, I cannot deny she is sensitive to the possibility of my falling. I didn't know LGDs were "sensor" dogs or even "service" dogs; yet it is not too far out there to realize some could be due to their sensitivity to what they perceive as their guards. (I guess Valentina thinks I am one of these she must guard from harm.)

What occurred today were two strangers' coming to my gate. (These will be the people taking me to the hospital on surgery day; so they came to make sure they knew exactly where my place was and what they would encounter.) Both dogs were barking with Cujo running ahead of Valentina...as usual when someone comes to the gate. During my walk across the 2 acres to the front gate Valentina stayed with me. She did not go in front of me nor trail behind me. She did bark a bit at the strangers, yet she did not run up to join Cujo at the gate. When I came near the gate (about 10 ft from it) that was when Valentina's bark turned into a growl. Cujo was already growling. I told the two people who had now stepped outside their car and were walking toward the gate...being about 15 ft. from it...to stop there and not get closer. The woman decided she would get back inside the car and then the man did as well. When they did that, both dogs stopped growling yet were still barking a little. I then opened the gate about 3 ft wide so I could step thru with my hoe. Neither dog made any attempt to get past me thru the gate but stood there watching. I shut the gate and walked over to the car. Both dogs stopped their barking and just stood there watching. (The two people actually praised my dogs saying how well trained they were and arrangements were made for them *both *to be picking me up when the day came for my surgery. I was so thankful they were not put out by my dogs!) My return thru the gate and back across the acreage to my trailer presented a similar scenario in that Valentina walked near me in what now I recognize as her "serious" manner; and Cujo, though playful, did not once invite her to join him in his playfulness. (Even typing this now I'm wondering if what I'm saying is interpreted accurately as I've not experienced this type of behavior by two dogs with such different personalities before. However, if my assessment is correct, I sure am blessed!)


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## wiscto

Hope your recovery goes quickly, Mot! Being a lab lover, I can't help laughing at Cujo a little. Poor guy just wanted to have fun. I like that he took the lead with your human visitors. I wonder if he gets some points back for that in Valentina's eyes.


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## aart

Wishing you the best for your surgery and recovery.
I would think you'd want to acclimate/introduce both dogs to your chauffeur's and caregivers?


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## Maura

I don&#8217;t think the drivers will continue to visit. However, if you had to call an ambulance there would be a problem. You might want to think of such scenarios. Perhaps a neighbor who can control the dogs and put them in a shed. You can always put the dogs in a bedroom, but if you are laying on the floor that ain&#8217;t happening.


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## motdaugrnds

ROFL Wiscto, you sure understand labs...Cujo just wants to have fun alright. As for gold stars from Valentina for his taking the lead at times, I do think she recognizes that some of what he does is more than play; but who knows. I just know they love each other; so I guess it is that unconditional love we all want. 

Thanks for the well wishes everyone. With a doctor having such a good reputation for what he does and my Heavenly Father's attendance, I have no doubt all will go as it should; and anything God permits, I'm fine with. (I'm sure doing all I'm told to do to get ready for this surgery.)

As for socializing my dogs with outsiders, that's not happening! I do understand the risks to my well being...and so it goes...............


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## aart

Thinking of you and hoping all is going as well as can be expected.


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## motdaugrnds

Updating....

Surgery is over and my return found Cujo running to the gate barking at the new van that just pulled up; and then, when he discovered I was the one getting near the gate, his bark stopped and his eagerness to greet me took over. Valentina was still over 200 ft away up near my trailer where the goats were...all watching without coming down to the gate. As soon as I stepped inside my place, Valentina came a running; and after our greetings both dogs were very calm as I walked across that acreage to my trailer. (Mid-way the entire herd of goats came to greet me, getting lots of hugs/pets; and as I entered the back yard, there was my cat, Jet, meowing at me.  )

Thus, the entire time I was away (from September 25th to October 9th) Valentina stayed inside the fence and none of my animals (not even any of the assortment of fowl) were missing. Their water was still plentiful and they still had plenty of food they could get to. All looked good except my herd buck who is very, very old and showing it.

It was a very warm day; so after I entered my trailer, I left the back door open; and both dogs and my cat came in about 3 times during the remaining part of that day. Valentina didn't stay long but seemed to just want to check things out. She did let me "firmly" hug her, leaning in as she has in times past and looking into my eyes. Cujo was calm ...as usual inside... and wanted many pets. Jet was purring. 

Thus, my excursion into surgery went well. I was back home quickly and all my animals still look great with none missing. (Since they still have plenty of food/water, I plan on staying inside most of the weekend, just stepping out onto the back porch occasionally. I'm continuing the physical therapy at home; and the pain I had prior to surgery is gone. The only pain I'm now experiencing is during my exercises as I bring the muscles,etc around the incision area back into shape and strengthen them. Thank you all for your prayers in my behalf and a special thanks for your prayers on behalf of my animals. I'm truly feeling blessed...again!

Oh a side note, the Deputy Sheriff I had met just prior to my surgery drove up right behind the van that had brought me home. I asked him how he knew when I was coming home and he said he didn't. He had simply been checking my place over while I was gone, making sure both dogs were home. He also told me the Sheriff's Department had set up a 60-day watch on my place...something I had not asked for nor even thought about. This all tells me my Heavenly Father has been involved.


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## Maura

It&#8217;s always nice to have police who pay attention.

Glad you are feeling better and back home. :icecream:


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## wiscto

That's great to hear! And way to go, dogs!


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## aart

Great News!


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

I'm sure now that I chose the right LGD for my little 6 acres. Valentina not only has bonded with the goats, but is alert to the needs of all the fowl (even baby guineas & baby geese) as well as myself, which actually has surprised me this past year.

Today I went into town for a physical therapy appointment, with the same van transporting me to and from. Each time I step outside my trailer to walk the distance to the front gate (even to get the mail the other day) Valentina has walked right beside me. Cujo was playful today and got a little close to my walker and Valentina growled...yes she growled at Cujo. Now I doubt she would ever attack Cujo. They love each other; however, I could not deny the fact she growled at him. (Cujo listened too and calmed down keeping a little distance from me. This, too surprised me. He certainly has weight and muscle on Valentina; however, he respected her growl.)

The same thing occurred when I returned home from PT. Valentina met me at the front gate and stayed right with me all the way to the trailer. Since she is my first LGD I really don't know if all LGDs take this role with their owners; but it is certainly obvious Valentina has decided I was one of her charges. What is so very nice about all this is that, even though Valentina protects the goats/fowl/me, she also respects us. I see this when my herd buck (even a doe) will swing its head toward her and Valentina backs up. Also when I let her know something is unwanted, she respects that. So, even though this LGD takes a lead role in protecting this place, she is still respectful of the desires of those she keeps safe. Is this what all LGDs do? (I've seen posts telling of LGDs causing problems with the stock they guard; so I have to wonder if I simply lucked out with this particular breed.)


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## aart

I think it's the individual dog, no matter the breed...._and_ it's keeper/trainer.
You're reaping what you've sown.


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## wiscto

Mot, around this time of year I'm missing hunting trips with my last lab. Actually the nostalgia hit me about two months late this year. I miss that dog. Oddly, she wasn't that excited about water, but she was an awesome pheasant dog. Her big chocolate buddy is gone now too, long legs and 90 pounds of, "I will fetch, and I will fetch for 8 hours straight, or I will pout all day..." So give Cujo an extra treat for me if you have any to spare.  How are the dogs doing?


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Both dogs are doing very well...for the most part. Cujo did cut his leg quite deep yesterday and needed some tending; however, it is looking very good today.

Oh yes, labs are wonderful dogs. Cujo LOVES to hunt, chase and catch (even eat) the animals he permitted to on this place. He is an excellent back-up for Valentina when she is alerted to danger and is a very good roll model as well for her simply because he loves to obey and Valentina "reluctantly" does so. ROFL

Valentina has gained enough weight now that I'm no longer concerned about it, which is very relaxing for me. She did seem to have a hard time when my herd buck, Sir Alginon, died in the pasture during a rough-weather week. She had been barking/howling around the area where I found him and apparently had been keeping everything away from him even though he was dead. (After I got him out of that area and covered well in my raised bed, Valentina stopped all that barking/howling down there. For a few days she has been wanting a little extra pets too, though I am only guessing this has something to do with the loss of Sir Alginon. She did use to sleep next to him often.) 

The weather was good today so I went out and took a few pictures I thought some of you might enjoy.


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## wiscto

They're looking good! How did Cujo cut his leg? I know a lot of people have gotten pretty good at sutures with their dogs, I've never really had to. I can't remember if you're one of the ones who's mentioned it here, but if you've done it, what did you use?


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## motdaugrnds

Cujo "probably" cut his leg on a piece of glass. I don't know of anything else that might have made such a clean cut; and I've seen broken glass around here. 

Yes, I've taken care of cuts. Valentina had a cut on the top part (and between) her toes once. I used superglue to seal/connect the sides; and that worked very well. Cujo's cut is horizontal across the back part of his shin. I could not find any superglue that was not hard as nails and I could not keep him still to suture it. Since it was not completely cut to the bone and was not a vein cut, I simply washed it good, poured some Hydrogen Peroxide on it and then covered it good with Neosporin. Then I wrapped it with a piece of gauze and rubberized tape. (That tape lasted all day and by morning he had taken it off.) So now it is still an open cut but with dried and uninfected skin. I'm watching it closely because, if it does start showing signs of infection, I will need to do something more...maybe take him to a vet. (I have no doubt I could suture it myself but I would need another pair of hands to hold him still to do so.)


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## Maura

My dog had a similar cut on his leg, probably from barbed wire. The vet gave me honey to put on it. If you put just a thin trail of honey across the wound, it should help. I was surprised that the wide cut closed up on its own with no sutures.


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## motdaugrnds

Yes, honey is good too. The only reason I didn't use honey is because I thought it would encourage Cujo to lick the cut more.

Today, the cut was still not looking infected; however, it was not looking like it was healing either. So I placed a piece of tape around that chin running parrellel to and just under that cut. Then I placed a piece of tape around that chin running parrellel to and just over that cut. Then I help the cut together as I placed a third piece of tape over the cut itself pulling the two other pieces of tape together. This closed the would! Then I put a cone on Cujo's head so he could not take the tape off. _I will be leaving that on for a few days...._


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## aart

motdaugrnds said:


> Yes, honey is good too. The only reason I didn't use honey is because I thought it would encourage Cujo to lick the cut more.
> 
> Today, the cut was still not looking infected; however, it was not looking like it was healing either. So I placed a piece of tape around that chin running parrellel to and just under that cut. Then I placed a piece of tape around that chin running parrellel to and just over that cut. Then I help the cut together as I placed a third piece of tape over the cut itself pulling the two other pieces of tape together. This closed the would! Then I put a cone on Cujo's head so he could not take the tape off. _I will be leaving that on for a few days...._


 If it doesn't look to be growing back together, it may need to be sutured depending on how big, deep and open it is. Usually if it has not started growing together within 24 hours, it's not going to...but you probably know that. Poor Cujo, Cone of 'Shame'.


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## motdaugrnds

I do feel so sad for Cujo. He is an active boy and that cone does prove to be a nuisance in his efforts to play. I do tend to think of that cone as a "cone of love" than "shame" though; because it is there to help him.

Gave them both the back part of two goat hips this morning (cut down the middle). These were "raw" and I took that cone off Cujo long enough for him to eat his. He was very happy and they both enjoyed this a lot. (Just a little reward more for Cujo than for Valentina.)


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## aart

motdaugrnds said:


> I do feel so sad for Cujo. He is an active boy and that cone does prove to be a nuisance in his efforts to play. I do tend to think of that cone as a "cone of love" than "shame" though; because it is there to help him.
> 
> Gave them both the back part of two goat hips this morning (cut down the middle). These were "raw" and I took that cone off Cujo long enough for him to eat his. He was very happy and they both enjoyed this a lot. (Just a little reward more for Cujo than for Valentina.)


I think the cone of 'shame' thing comes from the look on their face when they have to wear one...more of a word play than an actuality.


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## motdaugrnds

You're right about that "look". Cujo does NOT like that cone at all. He only "tolerates" it and "reluctantly" lets me put it on. Guess I can define it as an act of love on my part; but it is quite obvious that is not the way Cujo defines it. (Even with it on, though, he is still guarding the place and running out to the fence line when he deems it necessary. It is when he goes up/down my back steps that I get concerned thinking he could so easily fall and break something.)

Valentina does not like that cone being on Cujo at all. She cannot play with him because that thing gets in her way. She won't even sleep next to him while that thing is on. I have, however, seen her gently walk up to him to lick his face; and he had not been eating. I identify that as a sympathetic pat on the head.


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## Moboiku

Hey motdaugrnds, its been awhile since I've logged in here and even longer since we talked but I thought I'd let you know I finally have my Karakachan. He is only 3 months old so has a long way to go before he is working but so far he is working out really well. He has met all of our livestock and shows no fear. He's a little too enthusiastic around the poultry but is actually really gentle with them so far, and with lots of praise when he is calm, he is slowly learning that calmness around the birds is what I want - at least I think he is.


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## motdaugrnds

Moboiku, hello.....I've been wondering where you were....

So glad you got your Karakachan. What livestock is he guarding? Please show us a pic of him and let us know which breeder you got him from. (I have come to admire this breed a lot.)

That "shows no fear" reminds me of Valentina at that young puppy age when she jumped off the 3' retainer wall twice (once landing on her head and the other landing on her chest) then decided to walk around that wall the 3rd time. ROFL Fearless yes and smart too.  I'm so anxious to see your dog. What did you name him?


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## Moboiku

I primarily got him to guard my sheep and goats. We have excellent fencing around the perimeter of their pasture and that kept them safe for several years but this year we've had a coyote (or coyotes) dig under the excellent fencing in two separate, devastating incidents. So my main concern is that he guard them. We do also have poultry (chickens and turkeys) but.....I have two older mutt dogs who have slept in the chicken yard ever since we moved here and the result is zero predator losses from among the poultry flock. The only losses were a couple of turkeys who chose to brood out in the pasture. The same coyote who got the lambs, got them too. So although his primary job isn't guarding the poultry, since they free-range into the pasture and occasionally try to brood there, I do need him to be good with the poultry as well.

Around the time we decided to add our Karakachan to the homestead, we also decided to renovate a barn and move them to it for the winter. So as part of the renovation, we built a very large dog run in between the goat and sheep sleeping quarters in the new barn. The dog run is constructed of livestock panels and he is surrounded on three sides by his charges, so he can interact with them but from the safety of a barrier so that he isn't hurt by them and, if he ever starts to play too rough, he won't be able to hurt them either. They've pretty much accepted him and the only issue was a couple of weeks ago when a ewe gave birth to twins. Overnight she went from a calm ewe to a ferocious mother, and rammed him for having the audacity to be within eyesight of her twins. He quickly learned to give her a wide berth, and even now she is starting to relax, now that her lambs are growing bigger and are very mobile. This will continue to be a challenge as we have many more lambs and kids due between now and April, but hopefully as they become accustomed to him being a part of their herd/flock, they will stop feeling they need to protect their babies from him.

During the day he is more of a general farm dog. I didn't want to put him full time with the stock when he is only a baby. However I take him with me whenever I go out to the pasture during the day, to give him as much supervised visitation as possible - and of course he is with them all night, every night. Over time, and as he matures, he will start to spend more and more time in the pasture and less time up at the house, but for now he has many lessons to learn. We are currently focusing on manners - not jumping on us - and allowing me to handle him all over, look between his toes etc. 

He has so far been a really good puppy. He has moments where he gets bored and drags out something to play with that he shouldn't but I have to say, those are few and far between and the rest of the time he is far better behaved than I anticipated (I was prepared for some "I need to throttle you right now" moments as I raised a large breed puppy but so far there haven't been any). 

His name is Kilo and he actually looks like unlike Valentina. I'll see if I can find some pics for you - I'm afraid I'm not that good at taking my phone with me when I go out, which means very few photos. I know I'll regret that when he's older so I'll try to get more soon. Okay......well, I just went to the insert image icon above but it wants a url and I don't have one since my photos are on my local computer so I guess I don't know how to upload one.....


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## motdaugrnds

Moboiku, to insert a pic from your PC, just scroll down the page to "manage attachments". A little page will come up permitting you to browse your own PC and upload whatever pic you want...easy.

Thanks for the information about that "run" you created for Kilo. That sounds real good and so much better than the little pen I created for Valentino when I first brought her home.


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## Moboiku

Thanks for the tips on attaching photos - I think I've done it!!! Assuming they display in the order I uploaded them, they are:

Kilo at 5 weeks (sent by the breeder)
The day I picked him up, at a rest stop on our long drive home
Snoozing while I read my Kindle and the sheep and goats graze nearby
A little older, resting calmly near a group of sheep and goats while I read
The most recent photo - playing with my other dogs

He looks so much smaller in that most recent photo than he does today, so that reminds me I need to get some updated photos of him. They grow up so fast!!!


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## wiscto

How is the breed doing here? I know they're rare, but it seemed like there was a pretty organized effort when I was researching them. Are all of the breeders working together to keep the lines from getting too inbred? Are they still working with Bulgaria to bring new lines in?


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## Moboiku

wiscto, I can't answer for all of the breeders as I've only had contact with a handful. I would say that for the most part those who plan to breed are trying to be responsible regarding inbreeding. Amongst the other pups in my pup's litter, one was reserved who later became available, because the breeder and purchaser had worked together to examine the pedigrees of the pup and the dog they hoped to breed her with, and realized she was too closely related. Another person I know who has a female Karakachan plans to get a male and breed, and I know she is vigilantly researching lineages also, to be sure her dog's future mate is not related.

I'm sure there will always be unscrupulous people who are more interested in bottom line than what is best for the breed, so as a "consumer" it is up to each of us to do our homework thoroughly. But I'd like to think that most breeders are more interested in what is best for their dogs and the breed as a whole, than making a quick buck.


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## motdaugrnds

OMG Kilo is darling! Yes, he is colored like Valentina, i.e. marbled with red tones in his fur as well as his white paws and under belly with that white tip on his tail. He is so very cute and I could not help but notice those eyes. Even at that age, I can see the alertness in the eyes that I am so very much aware of now in Valentina's eyes.

I do hope you share the experiences you have with Kilo as he grows....

Wiscto, Moboiku has given you a very good answer about the breeders of this breed here in America. Those who took the time/expense to go into Bulgaria to get their dogs are very much determined to do what they can to keep the breed pure. I know 2 breeders here in Virginia are and then one farther north is as well. Now the one Moboiku got her Kilo from is; so that is speaking very well for the breeders. However, I also know others are mixing the blood. I've even seen them offerred for sale here in this forum; so whoever is seaking a pureblood Karakachan will need to do some good research...as with all breeds. (It's a shame; but it does occur! Some seem to think they can "improve" the breed by mixing blood. Maybe they will wind up with a few dogs that are outstanding in performance; however, this saddens me.)


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## yarrow

Asen and Raya are about to turn a year old.. they are doing so well with the goats (they live 24/7 with the entire doe herd).. Both take their job very seriously.. got a couple pictures right before sunset tonight.. thought I'd share (it's hard to get good pictures of them, they are always on the move.. when the goats are)

susie, mo ozarks


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## wiscto

Mot, yea I have seen some mixes being promoted in my browsing. It seems like everyone out there has their pet project, or their own idea how to come up with a better breed of dog. The ones who put together a strong organization and have respect for the integrity of the ancestral breeds don't worry me. The ones who just pull a great dog from a line and just out breed it for some "signature cross" they've come up with make me worry. I love what you've all had to say about the Karakachan so far. Would hate to see such a useful and bright breed of dogs go extinct. 

One thing I keep laughing at is how much they can look like English Shepherds. It might be an issue for me some day. I will probably keep English Shepherds around as general laborers, and will probably keep the option of breeding open so that I can do my part for the breed if I have a great dog. But I would want to do the same for Karakachans, and I'd be so worried about an oopsy litter. Because I think the only way I'd know is if they grow a little too small for Karakachans or too big and independent for ES.


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## Moboiku

Yarrow, Asen and Raya are gorgeous! I know what you mean about it being hard to get photos - I struggle with that with all my animals.


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## motdaugrnds

Yes, Yarrow, you're the one I remember purchasing those two from a breeder farther north. (She had purchased her breeders from a couple here in Virginia and I know for sure they were a quality pair to breed.) Those two sure are beautiful!

I just love the way the Karakachans look as their CONFIDENCE is so obvious! Moboiku your little Kilo is showing that self-confidence already. Just look at the way she holds herself; and Yarrow Asen and Raya also have that look. (I should get a good pic of Valentina now that she is 2-1/2 yrs old. I really like that fearless stance she takes at times.)

Wiscto, ES are beautiful dogs too.


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## wiscto

motdaugrnds said:


> Yes, Yarrow, you're the one I remember purchasing those two from a breeder farther north. (She had purchased her breeders from a couple here in Virginia and I know for sure they were a quality pair to breed.) Those two sure are beautiful!
> 
> I just love the way the Karakachans look as their CONFIDENCE is so obvious! Moboiku your little Kilo is showing that self-confidence already. Just look at the way she holds herself; and Yarrow Asen and Raya also have that look. (I should get a good pic of Valentina now that she is 2-1/2 yrs old. I really like that fearless stance she takes at times.)
> 
> Wiscto, ES are beautiful dogs too.


Confidence, that's what it is. I knew there was something about Karakachans and their faces. Other than just looking so happy-go-lucky. 

ES are great all around dogs. I think some would probably even live a bit like lgds if asked, but I don't think most would be much of a deterrent for some of the stuff I've seen running around.


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## Moboiku

I got the camera out today and took a few updated pictures of Kilo. It is amazing how fast they change and grow at this age. Even though I see him every day, comparing the photos of today with those I posted a few days (taken within the past few weeks) even I can see how he is growing up.

The first photo is simply one I liked of him walking towards me. The second is while I was cleaning out my chicken coop today. He hung out with me the whole time, completely relaxed around the poultry. I hauled the loads of soiled bedding out of the chicken yard and up to my veggie garden. Kilo followed me and sat down to watch as I unloaded. One of the barn cats also came up to see what I was doing and I snapped a heartwarming series of the two of them together, but limited myself to only one of the photos. And last is a photo to show how the best laid plans sometimes work out. I had an idea that it would be great to get a picture of all four of my dogs, sitting together in a row, looking alertly at the camera. Well, I'll leave it to your imagination how the photo shoot went. Suffice it to say, the fourth picture I uploaded just now is my best attempt. One sitting and one looking at the camera - the other two not even pretending to do either. Such is life.


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## motdaugrnds

Moboiku, You did a great job getting those pics; and ROFL at least little Dizzy posed for the camera.


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## wiscto

Really enjoyed all of these pictures Yarrow and Moboiku.


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## motdaugrnds

I've enjoyed those pics too. Must admit I'm prejudice; however, there is no denying the Karakachan is *quite a breed*.....

Updating...

Was preparing breakfast this morning when I looked out the window and saw Valentina "stalking" something...yes she was stalking. Then I saw her lunge and trot with something in her mouth up to her favorite spot on the top of the knoll. Was going out to investigate when I got distracted with doctoring Cujo's foot...again. (He cut the lower part of his leg on a piece of glass and I've had a terrible time getting him to leave the bandage on.) Later I took some mail out to the box for the postman to pick up and noticed Valentina was playing with something that kept hopping. It was so small I figured she had found a frog to play with. Upon investigating, I discover a very young (about 3 inches long) rabbit ... now dead of course ... I picked it up, praised her for catching it and gave it back to her. (This is proof positive to me that Valentina CAN hunt her food if she needs/wants to. I really like that about her.)


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## Maura

Our cat hunted a lot, every day. He was very good at it. However, he never saw the mice or voles as food and never ate them. Did you actually see her eat it?


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## wiscto

Maura said:


> Our cat hunted a lot, every day. He was very good at it. However, he never saw the mice or voles as food and never ate them. Did you actually see her eat it?


Great point, I've always wondered how many dogs would figure out the eating part. My ES used to ghost chipmunks in our yard when I was a kid but we never saw her snack on them. But on the other hand, she snapped up bees by the garden regularly. I think it's probably because she saw me get stung and she felt they needed to be destroyed, but I'm not joking here....she spit the stingers out and ate the rest. That would go on for hours on end during the summer. It was funny to watch. She would chew like someone gave her peanut butter then push the stinger out with her tongue. Then one day I walked around front to find her gulping down baby rabbits whole. We had to deworm her after that. 

So I might be wrong, and it probably depends on breed, but I've always felt that given a strong enough hunger, dogs will figure it out.


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## motdaugrnds

I did not see her eat it. I actually went looking for it and did not find it; so I'm guessing she did. (I've seen her eat other small animals, i.e. birds that she and Cujo found vulnerable. One bite, one gulp and it was gone!) I know Cujo would have eaten the rabbit as I've seen him eat rabbits; however, I know Cujo did not eat this rabbit because I had put a muzzle on him to keep him from taking the bandage off his leg during times I was not watching him. (I also know both dogs would have sniffed it out were it still around laying somewhere; and they didn't even show signs of looking for it.)


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## Maura

Our standard poodle ate a mouse that had drowned in the pond. I never saw him really hunt though, just pheasant (standard poodles are a gun dog). My Irish setter killed mice by stepping on them. He&#8217;d carry them around in his mouth but never ate them. Yes, I think breeding comes into play. Most dogs dumped in the woods die of starvation.


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## wiscto

Maura said:


> Our standard poodle ate a mouse that had drowned in the pond. I never saw him really hunt though, just pheasant (standard poodles are a gun dog). My Irish setter killed mice by stepping on them. Heâd carry them around in his mouth but never ate them. Yes, I think breeding comes into play. *Most dogs dumped in the woods die of starvation.*


Yea I would think that's especially the case with some of the more tightly bred breeds. My sister's inbred lab wouldn't have known what to do, except eat her own turds all day. My lab was an escape artist and usually came home fat, happy, and unfortunately covered in the juiciest piles of cow manure she could find to conceal her scent. Lucky for her (and me) that farmer was convinced that she was running off coyotes and picking fights with *****, and that he didn't have chickens, because I'm convinced she was probably doing something he wouldn't like when he wasn't looking. He thought she was hilarious. I think she played with his calves once in a while, but I never actually saw any of this, because usually I was somewhere else trying to figure out how and when she managed to ditch me, the dog-sitter, or whoever she made look like an idiot during any given incident. She was gone for two weeks once, although we're pretty sure she was coming back to get water when everyone was at work.


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## motdaugrnds

A dog dying in the woods from starvation? I've seen so many strays around garbage dumps thru the years, I just figured they all knew how to survive when dumped anywhere; however, it makes sense now that I think of it that dogs raised in the city or never permitted to hunt on their own wouldn't really know what to do when dumped except smell out the familiar. (I suspect it has less to do with breed, though, than circumstance.)

I think I'm fortunate in that Cujo has been a hunter since the day I brought him home at 8 wks of age. He has a great nose and does not hesitate to sniff out a rabbit's hole. I've even seen him chase (and catch) a squirrel; so he knows how to get pretty close to have done that. I suspect Cujo has taught some of this skill to Valentina. However, I also know an LGD left out with its charges DOES hunt, catch and eat wild foods. So maybe the dogs *not* raised in cities learn survival skills city dogs do not...just guessing about this.

I've seen both Cujo and Valentina use their noses a lot to hunt down my guinea nests; and they both will eat the baby keets if those babies do not keep up with their mothers. I've seen Valentina do this. They also both will eat raw eggs they find; so maybe dogs raised outdoors in the country automatically develop survival skills. (Come to think of it, I've also seen Valentina eat berries off my berry vines.)


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## wiscto

It probably is more circumstantial, although I still think some lines are just so inbred that a lot of the dogs in the cities also have crossed wires, screws loose, a few cards short of a full deck....etc. Makes me sad. But I guess most people in town don't really do anything with their dogs, so that probably explains the loose screws more than anything.


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Thought some of you might enjoy seeing how Valentina looks now (about a year after her surgery). She has not gone under nor over my parameter fencing since prior to my surgery last September. Her favorite "lounging" spots are still on top of the knoll overlooking the pastures; and she still sleeps inside the barn (except when I "make" her come inside on extra hazardous cold winter nights...which we have not had this year). She is eating the dry kibble though she still prefers raw meats/bones; and she still gets along well with Cujo, though she will growl at him at times, which he respects. (When they play, she can still runs circles around him.)  I'm continuing to feel real good about the choice I made to get a Karakachan. Oh and I've noticed she "hunts" as I'm sure Cujo taught her to do, even brought in a baby rabbit awhile back. (Cujo wanted that but she would not let him have it.) I might add, it is the same with Cujo should he have something Valentina wants. He will not let her have it as he once did. They respect each other very well.


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## Moboiku

She is beautiful. I love the long, shiny coat! Except that she has no white tip on her tail, her markings are very similar to Kilo's and I think he will end up looking quite a bit like her.


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## motdaugrnds

Yes she does...It was just more pronounced when she was younger. Now that she is older, it is just a few hairs at the tip; but they are there. ROFL


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## motdaugrnds

It has become obvious Valentina does NOT like the guineas leaving my acreage. I've seen her quite often laying near the fencing watching the guineas who are on the other side where they're not suppose to be. Since I plugged all the ways Valentina could get under this fencing, her only alternative is to watch from inside my place. I feel badly about this, but it has to be her only recourse! (I can call the guineas and they will come flying to get what I'm offerring them. This is when Valentina moves to a higher spot and focuses her attention on the herd of goats.)


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## wiscto

motdaugrnds said:


> It has become obvious Valentina does NOT like the guineas leaving my acreage. I've seen her quite often laying near the fencing watching the guineas who are on the other side where they're not suppose to be. Since I plugged all the ways Valentina could get under this fencing, her only alternative is to watch from inside my place. I feel badly about this, but it has to be her only recourse! (I can call the guineas and they will come flying to get what I'm offerring them. This is when Valentina moves to a higher spot and focuses her attention on the herd of goats.)


As an aside, are the guineas still worth your trouble, even with some of Valentina's issues regarding them? You said she was sneaking out there a lot, but at least you got that taken care of. I like them, but where I used to live they were road kill, them and the pea hens on this one road. They had plenty of room to be anywhere but the road, and yet basically they died often enough that there was always one laying there all spring/summer. I think they were probably picking up gravel for digestion, but still, dumb birds.


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## motdaugrnds

Wiscto I really enjoy having guineas. I have had the same group for over 2 yrs now and they still sleep in the chicken house and come when I call. Yes, it is worth the problematic situations, not only because they give me joy but, also, because they are such great watchdogs, keep the place free of ticks and let me know where a snake is. (So do the geese.) Yes Valentina is put out by their leaving; however, everything needs to be free to have its own character and enjoy life. These guineas are no exception and Valentina just has to cope with their independence...as I'm still having to cope with hers....ROFL


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## wiscto

Thanks as always Mot. I like guineas too, always thought they looked cool.


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Just gotta share this! The weather man said last night and next few days we're in for a very bad storm. It started snowing lightly during the late evening but there was no wind. Brought Cujo in as he doesn't tolerate cold well. Valentina, of course, didn't want to come inside; so left her to bed in the barn.

In the middle of the night I woke to find some heavy snow falling. Opened the back door to "listen" for any sound of a problem I might need to tend to and what did I see but Valentina *"playing"*. Yes, there she was stretched out on her belly with snow flakes all over her; and when she saw me, she jumped up and made her little playful dance. This dog *loves *snow! (Cujo didn't even want to go outside!)

Same thing occurred when I went out to feed the chickens and give the goats a little extra feed so as to make sure they would have plenty to last the day should they not want to venture out in all this falling magnificence....HeHeHe No one was enjoying it but Valentina and she couldn't get enough of it. ROFL (Some things just need to be captured on video to do justice to the scene. Wish I could have caught this.)


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Would you believe I need to start trusting my LGD more? I just discovered this myself!

Went out this morning to tend to everyone when something started upsetting dogs farther back into the woods. Valentina stood alert, barked a bit and howled abit then seemed to ignore it all. I went on with my work. Shortly thereafter I noticed she was gone but Cujo was still around. I whistled as I often do to check on the whereabouts of my dogs and only Cujo came. Whistled several more times yet no Valentina showing up. So I figured she was starting to get out again...like she was doing last summer. However, all the fowl were still either in the chicken house or in the barn; and the goats were all inside the barn. (There is near a foot of snow on the ground.) 

With a heavy heart about having to curtail Valentina's wanting to roam, I started following her footsteps. Yes I walked the entire parameter fencing, which was quite a chore with all that snow caving in under my feet. And just as I was starting to enter the stretch heading for the back yard, who should appear but Valentina. I felt quite foolish as it was obvious she had simply walked the fence line (as I've often seen her do) and thought that was more important than coming when I whistled. Think my trust needs to be a little better!


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## Maura

I disagree. Your dog needs a better recall. She could have been injured. She does not have a cell phone to let you know she is okay. All she has is the recall. If you are able, go to the area where she is not responding to you, and work with her for twenty minutes on the recall.


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## motdaugrnds

Maura, I do wish she would come when called better than she does. (She actually responds very well to my whistle unless she is engaged in something she thinks more important; and so far such has been related to the safety of the goats and/or fowl.) Her not responding is why I took that lengthy walk. If she had left the property I certainly would have continued tracking her to find out where she went; and if she had been hurt, I would have heard something letting me know to hurry in one direction or another...I have little doubt Cujo would have been acting differently too.

I've learned LGDs are different from most other dogs, certainly different from the average guard dog. I value Valentina's ability to think for herself; yes, even when it causes a bit of anxiety on my part. While there are *some *commands I "expect" her to obey immediately, i.e. "leave it" is certainly one; the "come" demand is not one of those. Yes, I expect my lab, Cujo, to do everything on command; yet I actually *expect *this Karakachan to think about it first, then do what she thinks is best *within the limitations I've already set for her, *i.e. my parameter fencing. (She is not permitted inside my tool/wood/garden shed or house without "strict" permission; and she complies with those limitations with a great deal of respect.) 

There are probably some who would disagree with me, even some who raise LGDs; however, I really like the *mutual *respect that is going on between me and Valentina. Yes, it is more like a "partnership" than one telling another what to do and when. (I've even seen Valentina respect what the goats/fowl/Cujo "expect".)


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## barnbilder

I'm not buying the whole dogs starving to death story. Had 32 sheep killed by a lab from the city. A border collie and a aussie did a pretty good number another time. Pair of skinny britanny spaniels were trying their darndest one night but they were behind the learning curve. They might starve over time in a wilderness area for not being able to compete with coyotes, but generally, they will display no fear of man and will seek out habitation and thereby food sources that they are adapted for. What looks like "the woods" to some people is actually somebody's yard. Never forget that dogs first and foremost are predators and if they are not bloodthirsty killers it is simply because they haven't had the right trigger.


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## wiscto

I guess I have to agree with Mot, although I haven't worked with any, because I've heard that it's very difficult to make LGDs come if they believe they are doing what is necessary to get the job done. I also heard that it's still good to work on recall, just that they might not come anyway if they think they are busy. Hey Mot, do you ever have Cujo show you where she is? That would put those lab instincts and his obedience to good use.


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## motdaugrnds

ROFL Wiscto, that is exactly what I do. When I can only see Cujo, I ask "where's Valentina" and he will look around for her. That is one reason I knew to take a hike around the parameter. (He is quite fond of telling on her. HeHeHe.)


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## Maura

I&#8217;ve given this some serious thought. I really think you need to improve your recall on Valentina. What if an ambulance was coming to help you and you needed to get Valentina secure before they arrived? What if someone was there to hurt you? If you have a recall on her you can always see where she was coming from, then have her lead you to the problem.


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## Moboiku

Maura, I first want to say that I have the utmost respect for your opinion as I know you have a great deal of experience with dogs. I also want to acknowledge that I am a relative newbie when it comes to LGDs, (though certainly not a newbie to dogs). However prior to acquiring my own LGD pups late last year, I did approximately two years of research on this genre and continue to belong to several forums dedicated solely to LGDs.

With all that said....I agree with motdaugrnds regarding her recent experience with Valentina. LGDs were bred for centuries to be independent thinkers because in many cultures they were left for days at a time on a large area, as the sole caretakers for their livestock. They didn't have human handlers telling them what to do but instead were trusted to do what needed to be done to keep the stock safe. With any other type of dog, I would agree that a strong recall is important. But as LGD owners, we got these dogs to watch out for our livestock and they take their jobs seriously. They can hear and smell things we can't and based on the years of reading I've done, if they are responding to a possible threat, it is not only normal, but entirely appropriate to ignore the recall until such time as the threat no longer exists. That is what we got them for.


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## motdaugrnds

Maura, I do understand the situations you described in your post; and those referencing my well being are greatly appreciated. I suspect you are remembering the event that took place at my front gate when those strangers came to pick me up and take me in for surgery. Yes both Valentina and Cujo showed a dislike of their getting out of their cars and walking toward my front gate. (What you may not be aware of is, at that time, all my goats and fowl were free-ranging in the front pasture and had followed me up to the gate; and neither I nor any of my animals were incapacitated.) 

Do you remember the event when I fell and both dogs were alerted to my need and both stayed very calm? Neither of them needed a correction. Should I ever need a stranger to come help me, I have little doubt such help would be permitted because I would simply tell my dogs to let that stranger near me. Now if I were incapacitated and unable to tell the dogs what to do (or not do in such instance), what good would a recall be? Also, should anyone ever show up for the purpose of hurting me, I have no doubt at all both my dogs would know it before I did...thus no recall needed for this either.

Valentina does come when called; yet should I make it a practice to demand she come no matter what she may be doing just so I could see from what direction she was coming actually defeats the purpose of having her. I would not want her to stop attacking some fox that had been after my fowl in order for me to know where she had been attacking it...a bit foolish of me to expect her to come at such times.

Remember my place is quite small, only 6 acres; so if she is encountering some problem that needs attending, she would not have to come to me to tell me. All she has to do is bark.

So, Maura, thank you for trying to help me stay safe. My idea of staying safe is to have this wonderful lab, Cujo, and this wonderful LGD, Valentina, LOOSE and "secured" only by my commands should ever the need arise.

Oh this might help all understand this Karakachan better. My residence is heated with oil; and several times a year the oil man delivers it. I never know when he's coming and he always opens the front gate, drives thru, shuts that gate, drives on down, gets out of his truck, opens up the back of that truck, gets a ladder and a long hose and carries both around the end of my trailer (passing right by my back porch) to set up the ladder, climb up and put oil in my oil drum. Not once has either Cujo or Valentina attacked him. Cujo will sit on the porch steps and just watch. Valentina will growl and either sit next to Cujo or get between the oil drum and the barn. There are 3 different men who deliver oil in my area and not one of them is afraid of my dogs. All, however, have let me know they "respect" my dogs and, of course, they have never tried to interact with my dogs...nor have they ever tried to bother me or the goats. (The last time this oil was delivered my large Nubian doe went up to this man wanting to be petted; and though it was obvious Valentina did not like it by the way she was circling, she did not attack him. So she is smart enough to know when there is a real threat to her charges.)

Moboiku, I totally agree with what you've learned about LGDs. I love having a Karakachan "thinking" on my place.


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## LuLuToo

Why is it that I'm not seeing the pics?

LuLu


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## motdaugrnds

LuLu, every single one of my first pictures throughout this thread were stopped and it was not my doing. I asked the forum administration to put them back and was told it could not be done. I asked them if they could permit me to "edit" all those old posts so as to put the pics back myself; and again was told it could not be done. 

LuLu, if you will go back to around page 25 you will see where I was able to start putting pics in again; and from that page to this you will see some nice Karakachan pics...not only of Valentina but of other beautiful Karakachans as well. Sorry for the inconvenience.


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## motdaugrnds

Well, this isn't strictly about Valentina; but certainly affects her. I've been cautious about how I feed these two since they've been fixed as I don't want either of them gaining too much weight. Seems I have mis-judged!

I took Cujo to the vet today for a rabies shot. They weighed him and he was 117 lbs...yes over a hundred pounds...and I thought I was keeping his weight down to 80 lbs. How I missed his gaining weight is beyond me. (Valentina certainly does not look over weight; but neither does Cujo.)

Now I'm in a dilemma as how to feed these two. Valentina looks like she is doing fine on the 13% crude fat "kibble" and she eats only half as much of this as Cujo does. I *feel *mean if I don't give Cujo enough kibble to satisfy his appetite! However this 13% crude fat is apparently not what he needs to be eating...or at least I should have to just deal with my feelings of guilt and feed him less of it. 

I do have some quartered "store-bought" chicken; so am thinking maybe that would be best to feed Cujo; however, I really have no idea as to how much weight that would put on him. Any ideas and/or suggestions would be appreciated.


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## wiscto

Store bought chicken tends to be pretty fatty, doesn't it? I really don't know for sure, just seems like something I've read before. I don't have any in the house to check.


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Something quite different is occurring here! Valentina is now barking at ME! I have no idea what she is saying; but it is obvious she is trying to tell me something.

The first incident was earlier this week when I climbed up onto the chicken house and repaired the roofing of the chicken pen. (Yes I was a bit slow and had difficulty getting up; but I didn't fall.) Valentina stood at the bottom looking up at me barking. Now I don't think she believes I'm an intruder...LOL...so why on earth is she barking?

The second incident was today when I was putting up the fencing around my apple trees. (It was quite difficult as the large roll of fencing didn't want to cooperate; so it took me awhile to get it done.) I was "outside" my parameter fencing and Valentina was "inside" the fencing. She stood there barking at me. Why? I have no idea! (Now she has seen be up there many times before when I go after my mail; and she does not bark at me those times.)

Any ideas as to why an LGD would bark at its owner like this?


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## Moboiku

Dogs' eyesight generally is not very good since they rely so heavily on their sense of smell. When they "see" us walking towards them, they become accustomed to the approximate size and shape (but don't see detail), that is accompanied by a familiar voice and, as we get closer, our smell. I have noticed also that my dogs will bark at me if I am carrying something that makes my size/shape look unfamiliar to them. I have to call out "Hey, its me" and they'll settle down again. My guess is that up on the chicken coop roof or carrying the unwieldy roll of wire, Valentina didn't recognize you as you and therefore felt concerned over something unusual happening in her environment.


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## Maura

Dogs will bark if they are not with you. Possibly she just wanted to be let out to join you. If she has not seen you work with the fencing she may be objecting. Anything different. If the barking was aggressive sounding, then I&#8217;d go with she didn&#8217;t know it was you.


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## motdaugrnds

Well, I appreciate all the information and I'm referencing what you both have said with what actually occurred. 

Valentina's bark is lower pitched and often accompanied with a low growl when she is barking at some stranger or preditor. (When both she and Cujo make a mad run across the acreage to get to a rabbit/squirrel, there is no bark at all, just silence.)

These two times when she was barking at me the tone was exactly like when she is "talking" to me. (Example: During those terribly cold nights when I "made" her come inside to sleep and she wanted out often, she would bark at me. The time when my goat had its "horned" head caught in fencing she came to the door and barked. At such times the tone of her bark is high pitched. I've come to recognize that tone as Valentina's telling/asking me something, i.e. She is actually talking to me; and she does know who I am at that time.)

Both of these two times I acknowledged her; so I cannot say she didn't know who I was on that roof or outside that fence. Now maybe she was telling me she wanted to come join me "outside" the fencing; but I don't believe that is what she was saying when I was on the roof. Thus, knowing her barks as I do lets me know she is saying something she thought was important; and yet, I have no understanding as to what that might be. I just know for sure she knew who I was and was wanting me to do something. 

Oh yes, I do know this sounds as though I'm humanizing this LGD; yet her method(s) of barking are quite different from Cujo's. Cujo's voice will change when he is excited; however, his barks are not nearly so diversified as Valentina's is. So I'm stumped!


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Another incident occurred this week where Valentina sits/stands looking directly at me while barking in that "talking" manner. This time I was in the orchard pruning the trees. I had let both she and Cujo in there to run around and look everything over; and after awhile, there Valentina was barking at me. Now grant you she might have been disturbed by the limbs falling and one actually fell on top of my head; but they are small limbs and none hit Valentina. 

I acknowledged Valentina and spoke to her asking what she wanted. She look directly into my eyes and barked with that "talking tone". I have no idea what this is about! None of the goats/fowl were in distress and there was no predator around. She did not seem "anxious" about anything. She appeared to simply be carrying on a conversation with me....oh yes, I know how this sounds; but really, I'm not certifiable....yet!


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## CountryCabin

" Now maybe she was telling me she wanted to come join me "outside" the fencing; but I don't believe that is what she was saying when I was on the roof."

motdaugrnds

This above reminded me of a critter I had a few years back.

I was up on the roof, he would stand and watch me, while giving me 'what for' with his chattering or at least that's how it sounded to me. When I waved to him, he had this stern look on his face that pretty much told me what he was saying. lol
He stood right where he was and never moved from his view of me or the roof until I finally came down.

As soon as I got off the roof, he was ok but glared at me as if to say ..'stupid human...can't fly but goes up top a house.' 
I had told him... 'see, I am ok! '

He was not used to seeing me up there and that just did not set well with him at all. 

I am thinking your little gal didn't like seeing you up there either and was just worried about you. Her way of saying 'be very careful cause I am concerned for you'.

Some animals just have that sense about them that they seem to know we are doing something that might harm us.
It's something not normal to them to see us do maybe..? Let's face it, if we humans could fly..why hadn't they seen us do that before...? 

I may not have believed it, if I had not been thru it myself several times.

Not once, but twice at a different time I was 'watched' by said critter and the talk to go with it! lol

The other time was when I tripped and fell behind a stack of fire wood. He could not see me, only heard me hit the deck. 
He seemed to know something was wrong and he's chatter started up again calling me.

Until I told him 'I'm ok', while I got up and he seen for himself. Then his calling stopped and he went about his business. There again, he would not stop until he actually seen me standing up and walking around.

That boy taught me quite the lesson(s). 

Did she know that those sticks could NOT hurt you? No.
She was being concerned and I believe, telling you to be careful.

Now it you lost it (certifiable), so have I. lol


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## aart

Huh, interesting.
New stage in her development maybe.....
.....could be she _was_ concerned by the new activity.
..or she just wanted to chat(hehe).
You'll have to figure out how to reassure her that it's all good.
Only time will tell.


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## motdaugrnds

CountryCabin, Thank you so much for sharing those experiences. I know Valentina is "talking" to me; and one of my good friends here had suggested a few years back she may actually be a "sensor" dog, a term I'ld never heard before. Now I'm wondering if her "senses" were indeed telling her I could get hurt by the things I'ld been doing. It has been difficult for me to understand that side of Valentina, especially where it concerned me, her owner and not her charges; however, I cannot discount the many ways she has acted around me at various times when I was actually quite vulnerable.

Your idea of her telling me to be careful makes more sense than anything else I've heard or thought of; and I guess that is what seeing-eye dogs do too...and aren't those sensor dogs? I just never thought of a Karakachan (any LGD) being anything like a care-giver breed. I keep learning new things about this dog all the time; and some have been quite shocking...as is this idea of her telling me she is concerned for my well-being. Golly even typing it seems silly. But how else can her behavior be defined? (Each time I quit what I was doing, she stopped barking at me; so obviously I had done what she wanted me to do, i.e. stop what I was doing. It just had nothing to do with "her" and more to do with "me" if that makes any sense.)

CountryCabin, I'm real curious about what "critter" was "chattering" at you when you were up on that roof. I totally believe you! I have no doubt "critters" are more in tune with their senses than we humans; and I guess, if they were to lable us, it would indeed be "certifiable"...ROFL

Aart, each of these 3 times Valentina stopped talking to me as soon as I stopped doing what I was doing; so common sense tells me her barking is somehow related to what I was doing.


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## Maura

When my friend had a hip replacement and was supposed to be resting, she decided to get some laundry done. Her inside pet, either her border collie mix or the Newfoundland, blocked her in the hallway so she could not get across the house to the laundry room. She had to leave the basket and go sit down in the living room. These were very well behaved and well trained dogs. But, they knew better than she did.

. Valentina may have sensed you were getting tired, or somehow your scent changed. I wonder if there was something in the tree that she felt she needed to protect you from. Maybe she was just tired of being in the orchard and wanted to go back to her goats. Sometimes, we need to listen to the dogs. I wish I had listened to my Irish Setter and not married my first husband.


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## Moboiku

Maura said:


> I wish I had listened to my Irish Setter and not married my first husband.


:hysterical:


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## motdaugrnds

Maura you are so funny! 

I totally agree dogs have more sense than many humans give them credit for. And looking back over the last couple of years...since around the time she was coming out of her adolescents...Valentina has shown a more serious side. 

I've tried so hard to understand this dog. With her being my first LGD, I have felt so ignorant most of the time; so I've pretty much let her "lead" and simply watched to see what she does and how she does it. My intent has been to *learn from "her"*. This has been easy when it is associated with the goats, fowl and Cujo. It has not been that easy when such is associated with me. 

ROFL Well, the goats and fowl have learned to trust Valentina; so guess I should too! When I take the time to actually consider what has been occurring with her, it is not that far stretched to acknowledge she would think it important to tell me about whatever is in danger on this place, even if the one endangered is me. ROFL (I won't ever have my head caught in the field fencing; but I must admit some of what I do does tighten my own nerves. Maybe this is what Valentina is sensing and, since I'm the one she tells all these things to, it makes sense she would be telling me about my own situation as well.) Ummmm doesn't it?


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## aart

motdaugrnds said:


> *some of what I do does tighten my own nerves. Maybe this is what Valentina is sensing  *and, since I'm the one she tells all these things to, it makes sense she would be telling me about my own situation as well.) Ummmm doesn't it?


Bingo!

.


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## motdaugrnds

Hmmm Well, I think it is a "bingo"!

The last couple of days I've been planting cherry trees in my orchard. I've let both dogs into this area to explore while I worked...just as I had done when I was pruning the fruit trees. This time Valentina would come over to see what I was doing, nose around a bit, stare at me a bit, then wonder on to enjoy her excursion with Cujo.

Now I know she has not seen me digging holes with a pickaxe or breaking apart hard rocks with my pointed metal rod. The only thing different about what I was doing other than the tools I was using and the actions was the fact I was not at all nervous...just got tired. So apparently Valentina checks out my state of being and, when she senses my nerves are on edge, she barks at me, apparently telling me to stop what I'm doing. (Not once did she bark at me while I was doing what needed to be done to get the holes large enough for the trees. So I guess my getting tired does not concern her.) I know! I know! There will be some who think this interpretation of Valentina's behavior of late is rediculous! It is making sense to me though because of who this dog is, i.e. a Bulgarian Karakachan with genetics that enhance her senses and alerts her to whatever her charges feel tense about. With my having such a small homestead, she has apparently decided I am one of those charges; so my getting nervous brings out her propensity to do something. What she decides to do will depend on the situation, i.e. either charge a predator OR come notify me some goat has its head caught OR tell me to stop what I'm doing....makes sense to me even though I know how it may sound to others.


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## CountryCabin

"This time Valentina would come over to see what I was doing, nose around a bit, stare at me a bit, then wonder on to enjoy her excursion with Cujo."

LOL That gal is gonna keep you in line! Good on her!! )

Good for her that she has an understanding 'mom' that's willing to listen to her and letting her be a work 'mate'.

Sounds like you have a real strong bond with her and her with you.


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## aart

I don't think it's odd at all that she reacts to your anxiety, _or_ that it made you wonder.

You might want to work out some way to acknowledge her 'concern' and get her to shut the heck up with the barking tho....haha!


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## motdaugrnds

ROFL CountryCabin if anyone can keep me "in line" I guess it would be her! She is as stubborn as I am when it comes to getting things done we deem important!

ROFL Aart, You're absolutely right! When she is barking at me like that, it is a bother. I don't want to distract her by rewarding her (offering her a treat); and I don't want to scold her for doing her job. Sooooo any suggestions? ROFL Now if it were an "alpha" HUMAN man, I could just give him a dirty look. Of course, he would probably give me one right back; but at least there would be no NOISE. ROFL


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## aart

Not a scold, or a reward, but a communication.
When my pup alerts me to something by barking, usually rabbit or deer out back window or someone walking by on road.
I tell him 'good boy' now 'quit' then 'good boy' again for stopping.

Had an Aussie and a GSD mix that would stop barking when I said 'no barking'.
Just like any other voice/word command, you can train them to respond.


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## motdaugrnds

ROFL Wondering why on earth I didn't think to talk back....ROFL I've been acknowledging her barking but never giving her a command to stop. Ummmm Do you think she might take that as a command not to let me know (later on) when she senses danger? (I'm remembering the time she let me know when the goat had its head caught in the fencing. She didn't stop barking until she actually saw me out there getting its head out.) Am wondering in the current situation if I should actually stop her "before" I finish.....


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## Moboiku

motdaugrnds said:


> Ummmm Do you think she might take that as a command not to let me know (later on) when she senses danger?


In my opinion....no. LGDs are a different kettle of fish so the all the same rules may not apply. However I have a cattle dog mix who is my alert dog to anything going on in the neighborhood. She "announces" the mail delivery, UPS, visitors etc. Most of the time she barks long enough to let me know something is going on, then goes quiet. Occasionally the off button mis-fires, and having started up, she'll run around doing what I call nuisance barking. The thing that started her is long gone but she forgets that I no longer need to know. I open the door, yell her name and when she looks at me I tell her "Enough!" She understands that means to quit barking for the time being. However the next time there is a legitimate threat/aka delivery, she doesn't hesitate to let me know about it.


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## motdaugrnds

Moboiku that's a good point. Cujo actually does that, i.e. barks to let me know and, when I let him know I do see, he stops...or when I let the visitors in the gate, they stop barking. (Cujo will not calm down at such times but will not bark. Valentina will not bark but will growl and circle.)

Next time this situation occurs, I will stop what I'm doing long enough to assure her I'm ok; then I'll watch to see how she responds. That may actually be what she is wanting to know. Guess I'll find out.


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## aart

Moboiku said:


> In my opinion....no. LGDs are a different kettle of fish so the all the same rules may not apply. However I have a cattle dog mix who is my alert dog to anything going on in the neighborhood. She "announces" the mail delivery, UPS, visitors etc. Most of the time she barks long enough to let me know something is going on, then goes quiet. Occasionally the off button mis-fires, and having started up, she'll run around doing what I call nuisance barking. The thing that started her is long gone but she forgets that I no longer need to know. I open the door, yell her name and when she looks at me I tell her "Enough!" She understands that means to quit barking for the time being. However the next time there is a legitimate threat/aka delivery, she doesn't hesitate to let me know about it.


Yes! Exactly how it was with my aussie.


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Did some more work in the orchard today. Pruned "small" limbs & vertilized. (Need to pick up a pruning saw next time I go into town for some of the large limbs.)

Valentina and Cujo both enjoyed that acre and periodically Valentina would come over to see what I was doing. Sometimes she would lay down and just watch me. She did not bark at me at all; and the only time I saw her alerted was when something caught her attention on the back acreage between my garden and the creek. She stood alert yet did not bark! Now either she is getting accustomed to my pruning OR she is quiet because I'm not taking down large limbs that make me nervous. (When I get my pruning saw this week, I'll find out.)


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Walked out to find this occurring today. I was able to get a picture; so thought I'ld share. Valentina is now 3 yrs old. She shows a great deal of maturity, has a no-nonsense type of character and knows her place on this farm. These are the only 4 goats I have now and you can see the oldest with her son "playing" at that old oil drum. 

One of the newest things going on here is between Valentina and Cujo. She and Cujo often play together, taking turns as to who is dominant. Valentina loves to run and this tires Cujo out; however, Cujo loves to "chase" a ball because he knows he can "catch" that. ROFL What happens of late is Cujo will bring me his ball and, when I throw it, Valentina won't let him get it. She will pounce on him distracting him from getting the ball. She will growl in a way that sounds ferocious as she stands on her back legs and grabs Cujo around the neck. Cujo just takes all this in stride never getting angry at her. HOWEVER, some times Valentina grabs an ear and it is obvious Cujo does not like that. I'm a bit concerned that one of these days Cujo is going to let Valentina know that will not be tolerated; and when he does, I'm *hoping *Valentina will not respond with anger....Just remembered what occurred this morning when Valentina was stopping Cujo from getting his ball. She pounced on him and growled, Cujo started playing with her and then she took off running...expecting him to chase "her" instead of the ball I had just thrown. However, as soon as Valentina started running, Cujo went after his ball and brought it to me to throw for him. ROFL I looked around and saw Valentina laying down. ROFL Maybe I won't need to worry about their fighting...


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## wiscto

LOL Okay, I think that calls for a little human translation.

"Stop chasing your stupid ball around, we need to train, you bozo." 
"Okay...." 
"Perfect! Come get m- Heeeyyy...." 
"Sorry. I love my ball." 
"I'll be laying right over here if you change your mind."


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Did some pruning yesterday with my new pruning "saw". Took off two *large *suckers, one being about 4" in diameter. With both being near the ground I didn't need the ladder. Both dogs were in the orchard with me. Valentina sat and watched, saying nothing as I took off the smaller limb; yet started barking when I was sawing on the larger limb. This limb was as tall as the main trunk and quite intimidating; however, I was holding the base of it as I sawed so thought, when it started to fall, I could push it out of the way. 

Well, Valentina did not like this! She woofed at me. Learning to trust her as I am, I decided she may sense something I'm not aware of; so I stopped sawing where I was and went to the other side of the tree to continue sawing. Valentina got quiet! It took awhile but I was able to saw all the way thru that thing; and it fell right where I* had initially been* standing. Still am not sure about this as it just seems so far fetched to me; however, I'm thinking Valentina somehow knew that limb was going to fall where I was standing and had told me to move. Now I know how laughable that sounds; however, I can no longer disbelieve ... not completely anyway.

Last night another incident occurred. I looked out the door and saw Cujo playing with something I could not get a good look at. Valentina was barking at him. I walked out to see what was so exciting and, as I walked down my back steps, Cujo left what he was playing with to come greet me. This was when I discovered Cujo had been playing with one of my goose eggs. (Obviously they have started laying already.) As I walked toward the egg, Valentina went over to it, sniffing it. She picked it up. I told her "eh" in my growling voice and she layed it back down though did not want to move away from it. I walked up to that egg and told Valentina to "move". She growled. I put both my feet around the egg, though not touching it and just stood there looking at her. Valentina looked at my feet, looked up at me, looked back at the egg....ROFL....I know. She was deciding whether or not she was going to move away from that big delicious looking goose egg. ROFL She did! She backed up still looking at me and I reached down and picked up the egg. (She did get it back after I had gone inside and retrieved an egg for Cujo too. ROFL)


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## Maura

Just a side note. When a branch is big enough you need a saw, you need to treat it like a tree. Use your saw to notch the branch where you want it to lean to when it falls. That is, on the underside. Then, saw to the outside of this notch. If the weight of the branch causes the limb to break, it will break at the notch. This also protects the trunk of the tree from ripping.

You might also want to start by pruning the larger branches of the limb first and moving them out of the way. This makes the limb lighter and easier to control.

Good dog.


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks Maura. You're absolutely right! I didn't even think of notching the underside; and maybe if I had, it would have actually fallen "over" instead of straight down. Sure glad it is done! (Think I'm gonna cut the entire tree down and use it for "root stock" grafting 2-3 edible pears into the bark.)


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## motdaugrnds

Alright now! This is getting rediculous! 

Have you ever tried to work with someone looking over your shoulders? It isn't comfortable!

This morning I was weeding the asparagus patch. It is just about 50' long but was full of large clumps of what looks like Johnson grass; and those clumps were extremely difficult to get up. I was nearing the end of the 50' and was already so worn out I was wondering if I should rest a bit before finishing. There was just about 5 more ft to go; so I decided I could handle that. Well Guess who comes over and woofs at me! Oh yes, it was Valentina. I immediately thought she was trying to tell me something about some intruder; so I looked around. There was no intruder. She sat down. I started working again. She woofed again....now enough is enough!

Later this afternoon I was weeding the new thornless blackberry vines a new friend had brought me awhile back; and here comes Valentina. She walks around me watching, sits down and watches, then goes on her way. Now this is getting rediculous as I feel she is actually monitoring what I do..........grrrrrrrrr 

How on earth do I stop this? I don't want to put a damper on her doing what she thinks is best to protect her charges; and apparently I've turned out to be one of those. Still she is annoying.


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## aart

Chuckles.......nagging spousedog.

I assume your "How on earth do I stop this?" is rhetorical...but....

Just say "Yeah, yeah, I know..in a minute"


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## motdaugrnds

Just an update to let all interested in how this LGD is doing now that she is considered "grown". 

She is 3 yrs old and it has become obvious over the last few months that she is a very serious-minded canine. She will often stop eating her food to check on whatever noise she has heard that concerns her. (It is at that time I keep an eye on Cujo because he has no qualms about eating Valentina's food if she actually walks away from it.) After she has assured herself all is fine, she returns to finish eating. (I rarely see her finish the "kibble" given her as she always leaves a few bits in her pan. Cujo would gladly finish this but I wo't let him.)

Outside of the nuisance she has been for me when I'm doing something she deems might be harmful, she has been a really nice guard dog. She only barks when she senses something outside the parameter fencing; and even if Cujo is barking at something, she does not always join him in that. When Valentina does bark, I can tell now how serious the situation might be as the tone of her bark changes. Sometimes she adds a howl to her bark and sometimes even a growl. Those are times when I stand very still and watch in the direction she is looking; and it never has failed that I see something rather large moving away quickly...have no idea what it is when it is dark.

Here is the latest pic of Valentina with some new-comers to the place. I had purchased 6 baby ducklings to give a brooding "goose" something to care for; and as you can see, Valentina is right there checking the trails out. (Not once has she...nor Cujo...attempted to harm these baby ducks....though just this morning both discovered a young rabbit and took chase...Yes even Valentina was chasing that rabbit. It ran under my trailer ROFL so they didn't catch it. )

When I leave the back door open, Valentina will periodically come in, sniff around, say hello to me and then exit. Cujo will come in and lay down. 

When Valentina is hungry, she will come to the door and bark...OR...she will come inside and just stand there looking at me, then bark. At such times I often give her (and Cujo) a raw egg and sometimes a little peanut butter. Cujo does not like the PB but Valentina loves it. Then I tell them both to go back outside. They both do; and yes, Valentina minds very well at these times. (Both she and Cujo are extremely well behaved inside the house; and when they see me eating, they will not disturbe me nor ask for anything I have.)

She still sleeps both in the barn as well as on the back porch in bad weather; however, her favorite places to rest are on top of the knolls where she can look out over the pasture where the goats/fowl are browsing. I, also, often see her laying next to the front gate when the guineas have flown over that gate for their little excursions. When the guineas return, Valentina moves to other areas to rest/watch. 

I still see her patrol the parameter fencing, though not as often as I use to. I suspect she knows the local preditors have already been intimidated by her presence on this place.

Also Valentina still lets me maneuver her body to either take care of scratches, pick off ticks, trim her nails and brush her. Sometimes what I'm doing to her is a bit painful and she will let me know she doesn't like it by growling; however, I know beyond a doubt she will not bite me so I simply continue what I'm doing to her.

All in all for this small 6 acre farm, a Bulgarian Karakachan with Valentina's learning experiences fits perfectly! And even when I walk across the 2 acres to get my mail, should Cujo get near my feet while in an excited state, Valentina will growl at him. Thus, not only has Valentina decided goats and fowl are hers to keep safe, she has apparently decided I am too...a bit disturbing at times yet nice at times too.


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## motdaugrnds

Another one of those situations when one wishes a video camera was handy....

Such a warm day yesterday yet with a nice breeze which meant lying in the shade was comfortable. I was heading out to work on the trellis for muscadines when I was stopped by what I saw occurring. There was Valentina laying down in the back yard under those shade trees yet none of the adult goats were with her. They were over 400 ft away in the pasture. The only goat with Valentina was the baby who is about 3 months of age now. That baby buckling was pawing at Valentina's tail with its little hoof, then it would walk around sniffing at her feet and then up toward her head where he wanted to sniff her mouth. (I've not seen this before and was a bit concerned as Valentina is not one who will take kindly to anything getting into her space.) Yet what I saw was well worth recording....if only I had had the camera....

Valentina did her little playful dance as she jumped to her feet and looked at that buckling. Then she plopped back on the ground still watching that baby. The little buckling jumped back, then looked back at her. Then he jumped up in the air, did his little twist and came back down on his little hooves before he decided to walk over and pester Valentina some more. ROFL This was so comical.... Valentina actually played like this with that buckling as I watched from behind the curtain hanging on my back door. 

Now, I had a German Shepherd (Cherokee) who would play with the kids by running "with" them, jumping up on the old oil drum under the shade trees and see who could push each other off and be the last standing up there. They would then run back toward the pasture only to turn and run again toward that oil drum. Cherokee not once won yet was often up there doing her share of the pushing. Still I've never seen Valentina do anything like that...

Seems I'm still learning new things about this Karakachan.


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## motdaugrnds

Well, Valentina has come down with what the vet calls a "hotspot". This is the first she has ever had. Her coat has such a thick undercoat that brushing her has not been that easy. The vet gave her an ointment for the spot called "MalOtic 25gm", an oral antibiotic called "SMZ TMP 960 mg" and I picked up some "Bravecto 44-88", the latter being a chewable that is suppose to last 3 months.

Valentina does not like any of this! She growls when I'm doctoring the sore and growls when I'm giving her the pill. Still she let me! She has to sniff everything and then she will decide whether or not she will accept it. She did chew the Bravecto. (She weighs 70 lbs.) She will let me put the cream on the sore. Her taking the pill was a bit tricky....

I hold her collar while maneuvering the pill in between her teeth so it will be on top her tounge toward the back. At first she would simply work it back to the front and spit it out. However, I've discovered if I just put the pill into her mouth (any part of her mouth) and then put both my hands "lightly" under her chin holding her head up so as to look into her face, she will swallow the pill. ROFL Stubborn dog!

It was obvious for a couple of days the antibiotic (even taken with food) upset her system. At least that is the way I interpreted her behavior...a bit sluggish. However, it is just as obvious now after a couple of days that she is healing nicely. (The vet's office called yesterday just to find out if I'ld been able to get the antibiotic down her and how she was doing. I really like this vet!) 

Cujo knows I'm doctoring Valentina and tries to get his nose into whatever I'm doing. LOL I have to tell Cujo to move and Valentina growls at him...oh yes it is obvious she is growling at Cujo during such times. ROFL (I sure am proud of both of them.)

Oh yes, I've been taking extra time and brushing Valentina 2-3 times a day. The undercoat is now much less and she is such a sweetheart while standing still to let me take off all that thick fur.


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## aart

Hot Spots are bacterial? in need of oral antibiotics?
Thought it was more of a neurotic condition where they just keep licking, licking, licking a bug bite or minor wound making it much worse. 

Had one girl here with one, vet just had me use topical for possible infection but wrapping it so she couldn't lick, which was a pain, but key 'cure' and worked within a week.


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## motdaugrnds

Yes, Aart, hotspots are bacterial in nature; however, the area is also prone to infection due to scratching. Here is what I've learned:

The goal to treatment is to clear the bacterial infection, relieve the itching and pain, and identify and remove the underlying triggers if possible. Due to the rapidity of spread and possibility of deeper skin infection, it is wise to start treatment with your vet. Depending on the severity and size of the hot spot, your veterinarian may prescribe oral antibiotics, topical drying sprays or medications, and/or special shampoos.

Treatment summed up: The hair in and around the dog's hot spot is usually clipped to allow initial cleaning of the area and the application of topical medications. Topical treatment with sprays, creams or ointments to kill bacteria and help with pain and inflammation are often used. Oral antibiotics are usually prescribed for a course of three to four weeks and sometimes longer. Often a short course of corticosteroids (i.e. prednisone) is given to relieve the itching and pain due to the inflammation. Antihistamines may also be used to help with itchiness.

When I got Valentina home from the vet's office, I gave her a very warm and sudsy bath, dried her well and kept her in an area where she could not get "soil" on her until she dried. Then I took clippers and cut much of her hair about 1" shorter, making sure no long hair could reach the hotspot. Then I started combing her often. Today 95% of all that thick undercoat is gone....  I can tell she is still scratching the hotspot but not nearly like she was as I can tell that spot is on the verge of healing.

I actually blame myself for this occurring. I should have started this aggressive brushing sooner!!!!


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## Moboiku

motdaugrnds said:


> I should have started this aggressive brushing sooner!!!!


I am in the same boat! No hot spot but I didn't realize my Karina hadn't lost her undercoat. Instead, when it loosened, it formed thousands of tiny mats close to the skin that you can't see at all. However I can feel them when I comb my fingers through her outer coat - which looks fine - no mats at all. So I am now spending 30 minutes per day, combing out the undercoat and removing all of those tiny little mats. I'm kicking myself I didn't start the aggressive combing sooner too  This is my first summer with her since she is only 8 months old. I will for sure know for next year to start the beginning of May with daily brushing and maybe we won't get to this point.


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## Squeaky McMurdo

You need an Einstein! I have a very sweet Alpine buck who's hobby is to pull any and all loose hair off of Saphira the Akbash. They are supposed to shed but she suddenly stopped when he decided to moonlight as a 24 hour dog groomer. &#128514;


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## motdaugrnds

Updating....

Valentina is on her last day's antibiotic. She has been very good at taking this Rx tablet, even though it is obvious she doesn't want it. I simply put it in her mouth and cup her chin with both my hands while looking into her eyes. She will look at me then move the tablet around in her mouth and swallow it. ROFL If I do not cup my hands under her chin, she will spit that tablet out. ROFL A very stubborn canine!

The hot spot is well now and, though I'm still brushing her daily, there is very little undercoat.

A little funny! Went to check on everyone last night before retiring and found the entire herd of goats sound asleep in the back yard not 10 feet from my back door. And who was right up next to them? Yes it was Valentina. ROFL Think she has bonded quite well with those Nubians.....


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## amospully

I would like one of those doga I think.


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

This past summer has gone quite well even though the heat/humidity was terrible. I found Valentina periodically in the kiddie pools set up for the geese/ducks. She does not hesitate to get in with all fours but prefers to put her two front feet in and then slush the water around with her nose. ROFL (My one water dog, a lab named Cujo, will only go into those pools reluctantly. No he has never been harmed by water or the pools; so I have no idea why he does not enjoy the water there as much as...or even more than...Valentina.)

Her hair grows quickly so I've spent some time grooming her with scissors, especially around her paws and butt. I've even cut some of the length all along her tail and legs; and I've brushed out all the loose hair. Her nails are still easily cut. (My nail clipper got to where the blade would not retract after cutting and, when I contacted the manufacturer, I was told to return them and they would be repaired without cost to me.)

She still prefers raw foods over the dry kibble; however, she will not harm any of the assorted fowl to get it. Thus, at times she still eats the kibble "reluctantly". ROFL Valentina will actually look at the food and then look at me as though to say, "...not again..." It is so obvious she does not want to eat that "stuff"! LOL However, when she's hungry, she does eat it. (I still get the large bags of chicken quarters when they're on sale, i.e. $4 a bag and each bag has 8-9 large pieces in it. However, if I don't wash it thoroughly, Valentina will smell it and then look at me with those questioning eyes again. So I use soap and water on all that chicken, then rinse it all twice before I feed it. ROFL Would you say she is spoiled or just plain smart....smart no doubt!) Oh, I've recently discovered chicken and/or guinea eggs at my back door. It is obvious one or both of the dogs have brought it up and laid it there. I pick it up, wash it and put it in the fridge. (Both dogs get raw eggs daily that I personally break open in front of them.)

Nothing really out of the ordinary has occurred here except for the fact I've stopped...yes stopped...tying up my dogs when strangers arrive. I've had the plumber out, electrical men out and tree-service people out and all have walked around my place with me while both dogs are loose. (As some may remember I had started chaining up Valentina last year after she had headed for one of the strangers' legs with her head low. It was obvious to me she meant to bite him; and when I caught her collar her growls confirmed it. I had chained Cujo up at the same time just so as not to play favorites.) Well, this year I had decided Valentina needed a second chance and, for some reason, I knew she would protect but not be aggressive. (Now don't ask me how I know. I just seem to know this dog now.) This has turnred out to be true! She now circles and watches, sometimes growling yet no attacks. Just this past week the plumber had to crawl under my trailer to fix a leak. Neither dog liked that man being that close to my house; yet they both respected the boundaries I had set, i.e. the front part of my trailer where the men had to crawl under was fenced. They did leave the gate open and Valentina would stand there looking in; but she did not enter. Instead, she went over and checked out the strange van and tools the men had brought. LOL 

Interesting too is the fact that, when a strange automobile comes to the front gate, both dogs will bark. Cujo will run up to the gate. Valentina will hang back in the yard unless someone gets out and walks up to the gate. Then Valentina goes and backs up Cujo in their warnings to those strangers. If I go up there and let the stranger in, both dogs will let the stranger in without trying to bite him. Cujo will go up and sniff the stranger while Valentina stays away from the stranger, circles him and growls. LOL Love the differences in these dogs! (My goats are friendlier to strangers than Valentina is!)

All in all I attribute Valentina's present behaviors on this place to her maturity. At the age of 3 yrs it is obvious she is a very serious minded canine who believes it is her job to protect whatever is here from the unknown; and she has done so without aggression....so far!


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## motdaugrnds

For about 3 months now the large Nubian goats have been sleeping at the foot of my back stairs. Have no idea why as their barn is quite nice and even has some fresh bedding in it. Still they cuddle here in the yard.

I guess that is why Valentina has started sleeping on the back porch. My porch has a rather large area that is "L" shaped and each part more than large enough for a large dog. Cujo has always slept there; and when I started finding Valentina there as well, I created a bed for her like the one Cujo has.

Well it was a bit colder than usual tonight and, since Cujo cannot take the changes in weather as well as Valentina, I took an extra bedding quilt out to him. I told him to move which he did; then I placed the quilt over the bedding he had been lying on. I no sooner got the quilt on when Valentina rushed to get on it and immediately layed down. Huh??? Cujo just stood there looking at her. I took hold of her collar and told her to get off as I nudged that collar in compliance. She refused to move. I did it again and off she came; yet immediately turned around and tried to get back on it. I held her collar and said "eh" with my growling voice and she stopped. I told Cujo, who had apparently just accepted the idea Valentina was going to get his bed, to get over here and go to bed. I had to tell him twice as the first time he pretended not to hear. He then got up and walked over to the bed I had just prepared and layed down quickly. I let go of Valentina's collar and she just stood there looking at me. Then she looked at Cujo who had his head laying nice and comfortably on that extra quilt; then she went and layed on the other bed where she had been. ROFL 

Now I know she is no longer an adolescent; so this was just plain meanness. She had no qualms at all about taking Cujo's bed. And Cujo apparently had no qualms about letting her have it. No wonder these two get along so well. LOL It was I who was interferring this time; and both dogs accepted my decisions as to who was sleeping where. ROFL (I'm actually thinking of bringing the little buckling up to sleep with them. ROFL)


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## Two Tracks

ok I'm not seeing any photo's ...just attached image but nothing


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## motdaugrnds

Two Tracks, I apologize for the pics being taken out. *I did not do it.* I did replace enough for all new to this thread to see how this LGD grew. The new pics start on page 21; and thus far, all pics thereafter have remained. So all is going well now.

Here is the link to page 21. Just scroll down half the page to where they start. http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/guard-animals/483238-made-my-choice-bulgarian-karakachan-21.html 


http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/guard-animals/483238-made-my-choice-bulgarian-karakachan-21.html


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## wiscto

Any differences in how the local wildlife treats your farm when the temperatures cool down? I'm not really familiar with your climate, do the critters still have plenty of large fields to munch on this time of year, or do they start to encroach a little more on places like yours?


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## motdaugrnds

Wiscto we've had such a mild climate thus far I cannot do your question justice. Here it is the first of January and I'm working outside without a coat.

What I can tell you is that I've seen more "flying" predators than in times past. And I've seen Valentina (even Cujo, though not as much) chase a flyer across the pastures daring it to try and land. ROFL


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## motdaugrnds

Hello everyone. It's been awhile since I updated this thread; and when I watched what occurred today I thought you all might enjoy hearing.

As you know, Valentina is nearing her 4th year on this farm. She has proven herself to be a very serious-minded canine who not only takes pride in her job(s) here but enjoys herself as well. Her best friend is, of course, Cujo (chocolate lab) who is about 8 yrs old. Both were "fixed" awhile back so I never have to worry about surprised babies showing up.

Today was so beautiful and both dogs were laying out in the front yard. Valentina up on the knoll overlooking the goats down in the pasture and Cujo near the porch. Since they still had some raw chicken quarters in the fridge, I decided to go ahead and toss the chicken out to them. These particular pieces were smaller than usual with only a leg/thigh per piece and since there were 4 of these, I decided to let each dog have two. What occurred is what prompted this update.

I called both dogs to the front porch and, after calling each by name, tossed them each one of the pieces (leg/thigh). Then I watched to see them eat it. Cujo as usual broke his into a few pieces and swallowed the large thing whole. Then he returned to the porch looking up at me for more as he could see I still had their bowl. Valentina did her usual ritual of smelling the piece over well, then licking it and taking tiny bites. Methodically she ate that piece taking much longer than what was comfortable for Cujo who was waiting for more. I decided, since Valentina was taking so long, I would go ahead and toss Cujo his 2nd piece. He ate that just as quickly as he had the 1st. Still Valentina had not finished her 1st piece. LOL Finally she did and looked my way. I called her name and tossed her the last piece of chicken (leg/thigh). Cujo made a mad rush to go after it; so I called his name and angrily said "eh eh", which means "that is not wanted by me". Cujo stopped immediately, turned and looked at me, then came back to the porch. Valentina looked up at me, watched Cujo then went after that piece of chicken. ROFL I just sighed! These dogs get along so well. They never fight over food and are the best of buddies. I am so grateful I've never had to break up a fight between these two. And even when they are both anxious to get what I'm holding in my hand, each waits his/her turn and respects what occurs. 

A short while after this incident I saw them both standing tall in the front yard on that knoll Valentina likes so much. They were facing each other, sniffing each other's mouths with both their tails wagging.....

ROFL I went inside and fried myself up some "home-grown" chicken. ROFL (Neither dog got any of this.)


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## wiscto

LOL! "Hey your face smells so good." "Yea yours too." "Stop it let me sniff yours." "I can't, yours smells so good." "Okay you go first." "Okay... I'm good get me." "Ooooo that's good." "My turn again." "Okay sniff me......now I sniff you." "Hey I barely got a whiff!" "Ooookay, just hurry up." "Okay your turn."


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## aart

Haha! What a great team, especially the people part.


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## motdaugrnds

Another exciting time!

Yesterday four fowl were slaughtered; and today I cooked them. After cooked and deboned there was quite a bit I could give the dogs. I carried the bowl out to a grassy spot in front so I could watch them from the window and divided the bowl up in half with each dog getting some. Of course both sat politely while I distributed it. Then I went indoors.

What I saw while watching was such a pleasant thing to see that I thought you might enjoy it as well. 

Cujo ate his as usual...quite rapidly...while Valentina methodically examined each piece before deciding on which one to eat first. ROFL She was only about 1/3 thru her food when Cujo had completed his. Cujo then stood there watching Valentina. Occasionally he would walk up to her food but, when he did, Valentina growled. So Cujo walked around Valentina and just watched her eat. When Valentina had eaten about 80% of her food, she took a step back to eat on a piece. That was when Cujo walked in to see what was left. Valentina did not growl but just stood there watching as Cujo took one of the pieces and walked away a bit to eat it. (Now Cujo never but never walks away from food; so this was the first time I'ld seen this.) When Cujo walked away, Valentina walked back to her food stash and began eating again. ROFL 

I'm so proud these dogs share like they do!


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## aoconnor1

motdaugrnds, a little hot spot help for future use. Regular gold Listerine, applied to a cotton ball and then dabbed on the hotspot, will dry up and heal most hotspots. It is a wonderful, inexpensive way to treat those darned things, and every grocery store or drug store has it. I have used it multiple times, all to a good end


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## motdaugrnds

Update...
It's been awhile so I thought I'ld let those interested know how this now 4 yr old Karakachan is doing.

She still has good weight on her with a shiny coat of long hair. She will let me trim both the hair on her paws as well as her claws without growling at all. At this time of year her coat is thick and I will start combing it daily soon.

Valentina still patrols the parameters and sleeps/rests on the top of the knoll looking out over the two front pastures. She has been thru a number of kidding situations and has passed with flying colors. Sometimes I find the kids all cleaned up with their mother and kid(s) quite comfortable having her around. (The bottle baby gets more attention from her than the other kids when their out of the barn; and I've even found this bottle baby asleep next to the dogs on one of the dogs' beds which I keep on the upper floor of that back porch.) Baby fowl are safe with her as long as they're with their mothers. When they are older they are safe without their mothers. She is good with all the fowl (guineas, geese, ducks, chickens) and both she and Cujo will not allow any flying predator to land anywhere on this place.

Valentina is still quite picky about her food as she wants to smell it, then lick it before she decides to "nibble" on it. ROFL She has to actually be hungry before she will eat and she doesn't eat much yet keeps good weight on. (Cujo's food intake is limited BY ME.) She and Cujo still play well, eat side by side without conflicts and take turns guarding different areas. She can still triple her running speed in a quick second, which never stops amazing me. When people strange to her come onto the place, she'll let them walk around; yet she keeps a watchful eye on them and often circles them growling. She has never attacked anyone nor bit anyone.

She still monitors me, which is still annoying; yet when I talk with her a little, she will not "hassle" me with barking. When I'm walking she is often near me and growls at Cujo should he come too close wanting to play.

On occasions I still find she has left the property...under the fence which now looks like a cyclone hit it...yet she quickly turns up at the front gate yelling at me to let her in. (I still have no idea why she is leaving as she never stays long. Yes the guineas still venture outside the parameter, yet Valentina doesn't stay with them should she venture out while they're off the property.)

I'm still quite pleased with this particular LGD; and if all Karakachans are like Valentina, even small homesteaders would benefit from such a dog....though I do believe she would, also, be an asset on a larger farm.


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## aart

Great update...wonder why she doesn't come back in the way she left?


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## motdaugrnds

Aart, Valentina doesn't return the way she left because she cannot get back in that way. ROFL She literally has to wait at the front gate and yell at me to get back inside. Then I walk the fence and fix the area where she scooted on her side to get under. Apparently the fence will not give enough when trying to get under it from the other side...plus with all the brush over there she cannot lay down on her side to even try. ROFL Goodness! I'm just glad Cujo is too muscled to scoot under like she does....


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## motdaugrnds

Update......

Took Valentina in for another rabies shot this morning. It was so easy to get her into the van and she rode nicely. Then when getting her out, she immediately wanted to pee. After that I kept looking at her wondering if she were really my dog. LOL She was so nice inside the vet's office waiting her turn and many a dog (and a loose cat) were moving about. Yet she only acknowledged them and did nothing at all aggressive.

She weighs 80 lbs now and is 4 yrs old. It was a warm morning and I had to do a bit of shopping so I left the windows half down. She would sit with her head next to the window and not out the window until I returned. Couldn't have asked for a dog to ride any better and she has only been in a car a very few times. (Of course, Cujo was anxiously waiting for her to return. LOL)

She still enjoys finding ways to get under the fencing, stays out a very short time and then yells for me to let her back in. Still not sure what that is all about! Sometimes the guineas are out; sometimes they're not. I'm starting to think it is simply her way of protecting the homestead, i.e. by making a wider sweep. There certainly has not been any predator come on this place and I've not even seen anything at the fence line for quite awhile. Still pleased with this Karakachan.


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Been awhile since my last update. Nothing consequential has occurred. Valentina is now 4 yrs old and has been doing a good job on this little 6 acres. She and Cujo continue to get along well, backing each other up as needed. Cujo is still with high energy and playful; while Valentina is still laid back and serious minded.

I am prompted to post today because, as hot as it is here, Valentina continues to be on the job! I heard her barking/howling/growling and that let me know I needed to check to see what was going on out in that heat. Cujo was racing toward the noise. There Valentina was grabbing and shaking a young red fox that had been trying to get to some fowl. Cujo rushed in and grabbed it too. It kept trying to bite yet never made contact enough to do so with either dog. When Cujo let go, Valentina grabbed the back of that fox, shook it hard again, then dropped it. It was dead! Both dogs stood there watching it as I picked it up by the tail and moved it. (Pictures below...)

I'm still quite happy with my choice of this LGD; and her ability to take on all goats/fowl/myself is a testament to the breed.


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## Pyrpup2016

Just what they are supposed to do!! Wonderful dogs!


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## motdaugrnds

...Updating...

This entire summer has been extremely hot/humid; yet Valentina has NOT had even one "hot spot". I attribute this to brushing her well twice a day.


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## Jreed

they cause a fuss the same as crate training any pup but usually the pups are inside at least. I dont even worry about farm stock at first wait until 4 months and then start to put them in the corral with some critters at night when everyone is calm


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## motdaugrnds

Jreed ?? wrong thread ??


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Valentina continues to bark at me when I start climbing around on the structures outdoors. I've taken to acknowledging her warnings and just keep on climbing. She will lay there watching....ROFL (Nosy dog!)

She has started coming into the trailer more often too of late. This always occurs right after I've been working outside; however, at times I've not done anything difficult. She will come in, look at me and sometimes lay down watching me for awhile. I get the strangest feeling that she doesn't trust me!!!


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Well, this is quite different! Valentina has been spending more time around me. I still see her sleep beside the goats and have watched her walking the fence line sniffing. Yet she will come in the trailer 2-3 times a day to sit and stare at me. At times I've offerred her food thinking that is why she is here; but she refused it. Sometimes she will lay down between me and the door for a short while...until she senses something outside then out she goes. I have learned she definately sees me as one of her charges, which has become fine with me because, though she is a nuisance about it sometimes, still she doesn't prevent me from getting done what needs done here.

Yesterday something occurred I hadn't thought possible. She and Cujo love each other. They play well together, eat side by side, respect each other's food and back each other up when alerted to something. Valentina still shows a great deal of calmness and Cujo is still his high-energy playful self. Yet this time Valentina didn't like what Cujo was doing and attacked him. I had simply been walking (pampering my left ankle as somehow it had been strained and was hurting when I walked). Usually when I step outside, Cujo comes over to stay with me while I work and Valentina continues whatever she has been doing. However, yesterday it was different in that Valentina came over. And when Cujo (with his high playful energy) came over, Valentina attacked him. Yes she attacked Cujo! Yes she was angry! Cujo did not...not...attack back though he didn't cow either. He just took Valentina's behavior as something to "tolerate". However, Valentina did not stop! She did not bite him but her growl was not a playful one! I yelled at her. She looked at me and continued to stay alerted to Cujo. I yelled again and took a step toward them. She looked at me. I took her collar and walked her away from Cujo. Then I called Cujo over and had him sit "calmly". Only then did Valentina relax! Now this completely caught me off guard. I know they love each other and there is noway Cujo would ever hurt me. 

Now I know this sounds silly; but I'm thinking Valentina somehow knew I was in physical pain and didn't need anything with high energy touching me. Even writing this seems silly. I just don't know how else to understand what occurred....


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## Maura

Something is wrong. Go in for a check up.


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## motdaugrnds

Maura, I just got out of surgery last week, i.e. catarac surgery. I've recently been checked out as well. Only thing wrong with me is a light tendancy toward high blood pressure when I overtax my nerves. However, ever since my hip transplant (fall of 2015) I've had one leg 2" shorter than the other; and this has taken its toll on my body, i.e. mostly on the ankle of the longer leg. Still, even though I need to be careful how I walk, I'm quite healthy....


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## aart

motdaugrnds said:


> However, ever since my hip transplant (fall of 2015) I've had _*one leg 2" shorter than the other*_;


Wow, you got shorted...haha!(not really funny)
Is that typical with hip replacement? 
Seems crazy to replace a degraded joint and 'build in' an imbalance that affects the whole bodies structure.

Agrees that Val is 'protecting' you.....
....but I'm sure you'll be able to adjust her training commands to accommodate this newer concern/behavior.


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## wiscto

I don't think it's silly at all. I think she senses something different, maybe even smells the incision on your cornea, and she doesn't like it one bit.


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## oceantoad

Be careful around hay for a bit. I wore goggles for a couple of weeks. I did the cataract surgery 14 months ago. Love the results. Hip is when ever I can save up enough sick leave.


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

I've noticed Valentina favoring her left front leg of late. When Cujo would run up near her with his muscled, high-energy movements, she would make a sound as though she had been hurt. This occurred even when Cujo was not touching her. The same thing occurred when I moved toward her to check her body out. I suspected either a broken bone or cracked ribs; however, in checking her over, I found nothing wrong. Still I made her stay in the house most of last Sunday. She would lay down and make noises as though she were in pain. She would also move her mouth and make noises that were obviously her intent to tell me what was occurring. I did not understand her. During the middle of the night she insisted on going outside; and so I watched her the entire time she was out. She walked very slowly all around the property, stopping to watch and listen for awhile in various areas. I was still uneasy about her and decided to have her evaluated by her vet, i.e. the wonderful Dr. Geyer who spaded her.

Very early this morning I started wondering how on earth I was going to get this large (over 80 lbs) dog into my van. However, this morning when I opened up the side of the van, Valentina started climbing right in as though she knew she was suppose to. (She didn't jump in as have in times past. I helped her in.)

At the vet's office Dr. Geyer weighed her (88.9 lbs) and checked her bones, muscles, ligaments, etc. and also took her temperature. Dr. Geyer also found 3 ticks on her. (Neither dog has had any significant number of ticks all year and I have many guineas and free-ranging fowl that have obviously kept ticks down. Still I have found a few.) Valentina's temperature was 104 when it should have been only 102. Dr. Geyer's attendant maneuvered Valentina's body into all sorts of positions so the doctor could examine different areas and Valentina kept looking at me the entire time while still permitting the attendant to control her body. (Valentina was so sweet during this entire evaluation.) 

Dr. Geyer said she thinks Valentina's problem was caused by tick bites. She found no broken bones, no cracked ribs, nothing she thought required an X-ray. She gave Valentina an injection (I think she said for pain or tick infection...forgot.) and sent 2 Rx home with her, i.e. an antibiotic and an anti-inflamatory tablet. She also gave me two (one for Valentina and one for Cujo) chewable "NexGuard" tablets to get rid of any fleas/ticks for 30 days.

When we got back home, Valentina came out of the van as though nothing was wrong. She did her regular checks of all the property and then laid down. She hadn't eaten that morning as I didn't give her anything. (Her appetite has been good the entire time.) So I scramed her 5 eggs and she ate those while Cujo watched. Cujo has been laying often on the other bed on the back porch watching Valentina. He has also moved more slowly so I think he understands though not sure. I am to start both Rx tonight (with food). And the doctor told me if her behavior had not improved significantly by Wednesday I was to call her. 

I'm thinking Valentina's behavior has had more to do with "training" Cujo to be less hyper; however, since Valentina did have a fever, I cannot rule out what the doctor said about ticks. I'm continuing to watch her closely....and to second the fact "I" want Cujo to move slower when approaching either Valentina or myself....


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## aart

Did they do the 4way blood test for 3 tick born diseases and heart worm?
My boy had a positive on one of the tick borne diseases this summer....
...took a couple months for him to be back at full appetite and activity,
but I suspect there was another issue(soft tissue spine injury).

Hope she feels better soon!


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks Aart. Yes Valentina seems to be doing well. She is "reluctantly" taking both her Rx and will for a couple more days. However, I've seen her play and run and even tonight she alerted there was something in the orchard near the chicken house.

I ran out and she and Cujo were right at the gate to the orchard in attack mode. In shining the flashlight I saw their concern...There was a possum growling/hissing at the dogs! I opened the gate and Valentina darted in and grabbed it. I heard what sounded like a bone breaking and the possum hang limp in her mouth. Cujo grabbed a part of it too. Neither dog would let go of the possum and it looked like it was dead already. 

I thought it strange they didn't kill it like they did the fox awhile back. With the fox Valentina grabbed and shook it, then dropped it. As soon as she dropped it, Cujo grabbed it, shook it and dropped it. When he dropped it, Valentina grabbed it again, shook it and dropped it. It was dead. However, this time with this possum neither dog wanted to drop it. Valentina "laid" it down apparently thinking it was dead already...and maybe it was. Cujo did not grab it. They both just stood there watching it. I got a hoe and discovered it WAS dead. 

I don't understand why they treated this preditor differently than they did the fox....


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Went out this morning to take a picture of the dead possom and discovered it gone. Couldn't find it anywhere. This too was something totally different from what had occurred with the other two predators; thus, I'm wondering if the possom was truly dead or just "playing possom"....ROFL


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## aart

...or something else carried it off to eat.


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## motdaugrnds

I thought of that Aart; however, nothing gets on this place due to the dogs' presence....


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...

Valentina is her old self again, i.e. running very fast and taking turns with Cujo being the "dominant" one. ROFL Her apetite remains good. In fact I purchased some "Blue Buffalo" last time I was in town and she is eating that better than any other dried food I've offered her. It is grain free and the first ingredient is chicken. Terribly pricey too! Not sure I'm going to be able to continue getting that; however, since she had been sick I wanted something I knew for sure would be healthy for her. (Both dogs of course get this along with raw chicken purchased when it's on sale, i.e. $4.90 for 10 lbs of quarters. And as long as I wash it, Valentina will ....ummm pick at it.....and finally eat it. ROFL I suspect she smells all that junk that gets put into chicken now days...)


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## motdaugrnds

Update...

It's been awhile since I updated this thread. Valentina has been doing a great job on these 6 acres. I certainly have no regrets in getting this breed of LGD.

Today was quite a bit different; so I thought I'ld let you all know what occurred as, again, it speaks well for her. I went into town while the weather permitted so as to stock up on animal feed. When I returned I discovered Valentina had decided to go "outside" my parameter fencing, something she rarely does anymore. By the time I got parked I saw her in the neighbor's pasture with a rather large skeleton of a deer. (Obviously some hunter had shot one, taken what he/she wanted and left the bones....or at least the bones are all Valentina had.) So I grabbed a leash and went over to get her. (She does not come when she wants to do something different..OR unless she thinks I'm in pain.) Anyway as I walked toward her I noticed she was thoroughly enjoying those bones; so I began to wonder if she was going to let me put a leash on her. I should not have worried because she didn't even growl at me. She wagged her tail as I came near her, stood up and came toward me. I put the leash on her, then picked up that rather large skeleton of bones she obviously wanted. She carried part of it while I carried the other end...ROFL...all the way back to the front gate and inside the homestead. 

At that time I tore the bones apart and gave Cujo half of them. (He had been waiting so patiently.) Valentina took her half and and they both went over "together" onto some grass to enjoy what they had. LOL Off and on the rest of the day I've seen them each carry their different bones past each other to enjoy them at a different location. Cujo decided to bury what was left of his and Valentina took hers to bed with her. ROFL


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## aart

Haha!
Picturing you and your pup carrying that carcass.....priceless.
Great story!

More likely deer was hit by car and died in field...probably had been there quite awhile if only bones left.


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## wiscto

How's it going, Mot?


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks for asking Wiscto. All is going well.

Valentina is still a VERY serious-minded canine and has definitely decided I'm one of her charges. Perfect example of this is the day I let a "friend" come into my house to help me with computer. Now Valentina had let this person on my place several times before; and even though she would follow with growls, she did let him come on into my house...with my standing between him and Valentina. Now this has always puzzled me because this man has ever been kind and respectful; also Valentina has let other strangers on the place, i.e. the oil man to put oil in the tank as well as the electrician to check the box. She would bark once then just watch...no growls. This one particular day this kind friend came into the house and the entire time he was in here (less than half an hour) Valentina continually circled the trailer looking up at the windows and bark/growl...the entire time. Have no idea as to why; but when the kind man was to leave my trailer, Valentina was ready to pounce and would have if I had not made it a point to be between her and this friend. Now it is quite obvious Valentina did not like this man to be inside my trailer, in fact I don't think she likes him at all. I have no idea as he has never hurt her... Anyway, this is an obvious sign Valentina sees me as one she wants to keep safe.

Other than this one incident, Valentina has continued to keep predators (even flying ones) off the place; and with Cujo's help has even killed several that made it in as far as the yard and/or chicken house. 

Also, Valentina is so obedient...yes obedient...despite her willfulness to do what she thinks best despite what I want at the time, she is quite obedient. Example 1: I wanted to spray a wasp nest that was right on my back porch just above where the dogs enjoy laying at times. Valentina was there at the moment; so I told her to "move". She stood up and looked at me. I said "move" again calling her by name and she walked all the way down stairs. (At that time Cujo was in the way as well so I had to tell him to move too.) With both dogs down stairs I could spray the "Raid" on those wasps killing them all. Example 2: Both dogs had found a copperhead. I told them both to move. Valentina stood there looking at me. I said "move" again holding my shotgun; and she quickly moved back to stand and watch. So Valentina apparently knows when it is time to obey my commands quickly and when it is time to "think" about it. ROFL

She now weighs 88.9 lbs (Cujo is near this as well.), eats her "dried" food (reluctantly), will take Rx meds orally (reluctantly) and lets me brush her, clip her nails and what ever I want to do with no problems. If what I'm touching is sensitive, she will growl; but I just continue and she lets me. (This reminds me of the way she acted the last time she was in to see the vet. She did not growl once but kept her eyes focused "strongly" on me while the doctor and her assistant maneuvered her body in all kinds of ways so as to check her. She obviously trusts me to not let anyone hurt her; and that was at a time when she had a fever and was in pain which means she knew she was vulnerable.)

She also still runs so fast almost tripling her speed in a second when Cujo is chasing her. lol I'm still quite fond of this LGD; and though I've not heard of other Karakachans acting toward their owners quite like Valentina does with me, I have no doubt they have the propensities to do so.


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## wiscto

How'd the dogs handle the sound of the shotgun?


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## motdaugrnds

Both dogs ran, then looked back and returned to my side. LOL


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## wiscto

motdaugrnds said:


> Both dogs ran, then looked back and returned to my side. LOL


LOL well they came back, that's good. I've seen a few have a really hard time with it. I saw a chocolate lab puppy handle it completely unfazed, that was impressive.


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## barnbilder

wiscto said:


> LOL well they came back, that's good. I've seen a few have a really hard time with it. I saw a chocolate lab puppy handle it completely unfazed, that was impressive.


If a lab is bred right, it should be able to handle a shotgun unfazed. Any lab that offers to be gun shy should have never been bred to, at the very least. People responsible for making the lab would probably have a little more hardcore view of that particular dog, and possibly everything it was closely related to, in terms of what steps they would have gone to to ensure that it was never bred.


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## motdaugrnds

.….Updating
Woke early as usual this morning so as to milk before the flies get up; and there just inside the garden fence not 5 ft from the chicken house door was another dead animal. It looks like a possum to me because of it's long smooth tail. Now Cujo cannot get into that area but Valentina slides in on her side where the geese exit/enter. So I know Valentina is the one who killed this thing. I checked her over and didn't find any blood or cut on her; so guess it didn't bite her as she killed it. Great job!! (Neither dog will eat this type of kill. Oh they will kill and eat a rabbit, even a squirrel Cujo managed to catch once; but they will not eat the ground hog or this possum thing.)


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## motdaugrnds

Updating.....

Just a note to let those interested know that Valentina continues to be serious minded, alert with what looks like pride to me...lol...and think-for-self canine. I'm still very glad I got this type of LGD. She is 5 yrs old now, still with long hair I need to trim periodically and continues to let me trim her nails and doctor scratches.

Both Valentina and Cujo will alert me to crawlers on the place yet will not attempt to attack it. For that I'm thankful as I found another copperhead on the barn floor not 4 ft from where I was cleaning/refreshing watering pans for the goats. I killed it of course. Then I laid that carcass out on the place where I feed all fowl in the early mornings hoping they would start seeing this crawler as one to attack, kill and even eat. (Guineas would often do this on my aunt's place in Texas; so I'm hoping my fowl will do it too.) Cujo would not even go near the dead snake; and Valentina would go over and smell it ...from a distance... but not touch it.

One of the constants going on is that Valentina talks to me quite frequently. She will come tell me if something is occurring in the barn, i.e. most recent was the birth of a Nubian; and she will come inside my trailer and bark at me if she is wanting something to eat. LOL I'm only feeding my dogs once a day now; yet there are times when she wants something to eat between meals …..LOL Kinda like my wanting to snack. ROFL So I've taken to giving out their "treats" at such times, i.e. store-bought items that help keep the teeth clean.

This hot/humid weather has been difficult for both dogs to contend with. It has lessened their appetites as well. (It has mine too as all I want is something cold to drink.) Still both dogs have good weight on them and they have each found their special places to rest during the heat of the days.

My admiration for this breed continues...…...


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## muleskinner2

motdaugrnds said:


> Thanks for asking Wiscto. All is going well.
> 
> Valentina is still a VERY serious-minded canine and has definitely decided I'm one of her charges. Perfect example of this is the day I let a "friend" come into my house to help me with computer. Now Valentina had let this person on my place several times before; and even though she would follow with growls, she did let him come on into my house...with my standing between him and Valentina. Now this has always puzzled me because this man has ever been kind and respectful; also Valentina has let other strangers on the place, i.e. the oil man to put oil in the tank as well as the electrician to check the box. She would bark once then just watch...no growls. This one particular day this kind friend came into the house and the entire time he was in here (less than half an hour) Valentina continually circled the trailer looking up at the windows and bark/growl...the entire time. Have no idea as to why; but when the kind man was to leave my trailer, Valentina was ready to pounce and would have if I had not made it a point to be between her and this friend. Now it is quite obvious Valentina did not like this man to be inside my trailer, in fact I don't think she likes him at all. I have no idea as he has never hurt her... Anyway, this is an obvious sign Valentina sees me as one she wants to keep safe.
> 
> Other than this one incident, Valentina has continued to keep predators (even flying ones) off the place; and with Cujo's help has even killed several that made it in as far as the yard and/or chicken house.
> 
> Also, Valentina is so obedient...yes obedient...despite her willfulness to do what she thinks best despite what I want at the time, she is quite obedient. Example 1: I wanted to spray a wasp nest that was right on my back porch just above where the dogs enjoy laying at times. Valentina was there at the moment; so I told her to "move". She stood up and looked at me. I said "move" again calling her by name and she walked all the way down stairs. (At that time Cujo was in the way as well so I had to tell him to move too.) With both dogs down stairs I could spray the "Raid" on those wasps killing them all. Example 2: Both dogs had found a copperhead. I told them both to move. Valentina stood there looking at me. I said "move" again holding my shotgun; and she quickly moved back to stand and watch. So Valentina apparently knows when it is time to obey my commands quickly and when it is time to "think" about it. ROFL
> 
> She now weighs 88.9 lbs (Cujo is near this as well.), eats her "dried" food (reluctantly), will take Rx meds orally (reluctantly) and lets me brush her, clip her nails and what ever I want to do with no problems. If what I'm touching is sensitive, she will growl; but I just continue and she lets me. (This reminds me of the way she acted the last time she was in to see the vet. She did not growl once but kept her eyes focused "strongly" on me while the doctor and her assistant maneuvered her body in all kinds of ways so as to check her. She obviously trusts me to not let anyone hurt her; and that was at a time when she had a fever and was in pain which means she knew she was vulnerable.)
> 
> She also still runs so fast almost tripling her speed in a second when Cujo is chasing her. lol I'm still quite fond of this LGD; and though I've not heard of other Karakachans acting toward their owners quite like Valentina does with me, I have no doubt they have the propensities to do so.


Dogs are usually a very good judge of people. If a dog acts like they don't like a particular person, in my experience there is a good reason. My Anatolians will bark to let me know that someone is on the property or coming up the driveway. But, with a few of them they will follow along and growl until they leave.

Sometimes I wish they could talk, and tell me what they really think.


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## altair

I've started reading about your dogs and it's an indirect learning experience so thanks for that! We're in the process of purchasing a house on 13 acres half surrounded by state land. There's cattle/horse fence and that's it. I'd very much love a livestock guardian to protect our flock of chickens and I'd like to slide into some goats as well. What sort of fencing do you use for your dogs and was it expensive?


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## motdaugrnds

Hello Altair, congratulations on getting that house on 13 acres; and being surrounded by state land....hmmmm does that mean you have access to a pond for year round fishing and hunting during season?

The type of fencing is "woven" with holes small enough to keep even baby goats from going through. What I have is plain "field fencing" with holes smaller at the bottom and custom height is 48". (This also keeps in my free-ranging fowl, i.e. chickens, ducks and geese...all but the guineas as they fly over anything.) What is important for dogs and goats is the way you put that fencing up. That posed a problem for me in that at the time I put the fencing up it was only to keep in goats. Thus I placed the bottom of the fence 6" off the ground with fencing posts not more than 5- feet apart. I raise large Nubian dairy goats and they will not jump this fence nor will they crawl under in such a small space. For the dogs, however, this changed because they have no problems "digging" under a fence. (I have a lab and Karakachan; and both dig quite well.) So what I had to do to keep my dogs in was more than what most people would do; yet it works well for me.

This is what I did to make sure my dogs did not dig under the fence. I took a "galvanized" 3' wide "small chicken" fencing and cut it down the middle turning it into a 1-1/2 ft wide fence. 
(Thus a 100 ft roll turned into a 200 ft roll.) Then I used the "cut" side to attach it to the bottom of the existing field fencing and let the rest of that chicken wire lay flat out on top of the ground. Then I laid either logs or rocks on top of this flat wire. This is not an easy thing to do; but well worth the effort. I only have 6 acres so it was much easier for me than it would be for you having 13 acres. My 6 acres is divided by fencing for my garden; so I actually only had to dog-proof the fencing on the front half of my homestead. And I learned by trial and error that it is best to simply start at one end and continuously lay that chicken wire all the way down the field fencing. You can skip areas where you know for sure nothing can dig (like large trees/roots and/or rocks).

Since my internal fencing consists of only what is around the garden (and my chicken house is inside that area) I put in what I call a "doggy door" which was a "V" shape in between two posts so as to let my dogs get into the garden without permitting the goats in. Also since I have ducks, geese and an assortment of fowl that do not fly well, I created a small area UNDER a couple of places on that garden fencing that permits the fowl exit/entrance; and my Karakachan (dog) lays on her side to use this.

Hope this helps.


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## aart

motdaugrnds said:


> Since my internal fencing consists of only what is around the garden (and my chicken house is inside that area) I put in what I call a "doggy door" which was a "V" shape in between two posts so as to let my dogs get into the garden without permitting the goats in.


Ooo I would _love_ to see a pic of this V gate....with the dimensions... if possible.


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## motdaugrnds

Aart I did post a picture of that gate on this thread quite awhile ago. And just now I went thru the last 5 pages attempting to find it. Since I didn't find it I suspect it is on a post farther back and I simply don't have time to look for it any farther. So I'll describe it as best I can.

I used two pieces of treated plywood approximately 2' x 2' each creating a "V" shape with them touching at the bottom. The EMPTY space between these boards are approximately 1-1/2' at the top. The adult goats can get their heads thru but cannot get their bodies thru it; however, baby goats can go thru it easily. Thus, when babies are around, that hole is covered with a piece of fencing until babies are too large to get thru it.


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## aart

That's a great description!
How far from ground is the bottom of the 'V'?
What kind of goats do you have?


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## motdaugrnds

Aart move that top horizontal line to where it is touching the tops of those boards and you got it. 

I raise large Nubian dairy goats. 

The bottom of that "V" is just high enough for my dogs to step over it without having to jump.


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## aart

motdaugrnds said:


> *Aart move that top horizontal line to where it is touching the tops of those boards and you got it. *
> 
> I raise large Nubian dairy goats.
> 
> The bottom of that "V" is just high enough for my dogs to step over it without having to jump.


That is just a dimension line.
Ah, so large goats....wonders if it would work with nigerian dwarfs.
So bottom of 'V' is about a foot off the ground?


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## motdaugrnds

Not sure it would work with Nigerian Dwarf goats. They are rather small.... What I'm thinking might work with them...if you had dogs that could jump...is place the "V" higher up so the ND cannot step thru......


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## altair

Yes, there is a pond on our part of the property! I haven't walked into the state land yet, though I was told the seller has trails there as they were allowed to tap the maples. Deer abound here in Vermont, I don't think we'll have any shortage of them, or turkeys.

Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my question, I love to read your posts about your setup and dogs.



motdaugrnds said:


> Hello Altair, congratulations on getting that house on 13 acres; and being surrounded by state land....hmmmm does that mean you have access to a pond for year round fishing and hunting during season?
> 
> The type of fencing is "woven" with holes small enough to keep even baby goats from going through. What I have is plain "field fencing" with holes smaller at the bottom and custom height is 48". (This also keeps in my free-ranging fowl, i.e. chickens, ducks and geese...all but the guineas as they fly over anything.) What is important for dogs and goats is the way you put that fencing up. That posed a problem for me in that at the time I put the fencing up it was only to keep in goats. Thus I placed the bottom of the fence 6" off the ground with fencing posts not more than 5- feet apart. I raise large Nubian dairy goats and they will not jump this fence nor will they crawl under in such a small space. For the dogs, however, this changed because they have no problems "digging" under a fence. (I have a lab and Karakachan; and both dig quite well.) So what I had to do to keep my dogs in was more than what most people would do; yet it works well for me.
> 
> This is what I did to make sure my dogs did not dig under the fence. I took a "galvanized" 3' wide "small chicken" fencing and cut it down the middle turning it into a 1-1/2 ft wide fence.
> (Thus a 100 ft roll turned into a 200 ft roll.) Then I used the "cut" side to attach it to the bottom of the existing field fencing and let the rest of that chicken wire lay flat out on top of the ground. Then I laid either logs or rocks on top of this flat wire. This is not an easy thing to do; but well worth the effort. I only have 6 acres so it was much easier for me than it would be for you having 13 acres. My 6 acres is divided by fencing for my garden; so I actually only had to dog-proof the fencing on the front half of my homestead. And I learned by trial and error that it is best to simply start at one end and continuously lay that chicken wire all the way down the field fencing. You can skip areas where you know for sure nothing can dig (like large trees/roots and/or rocks).
> 
> Since my internal fencing consists of only what is around the garden (and my chicken house is inside that area) I put in what I call a "doggy door" which was a "V" shape in between two posts so as to let my dogs get into the garden without permitting the goats in. Also since I have ducks, geese and an assortment of fowl that do not fly well, I created a small area UNDER a couple of places on that garden fencing that permits the fowl exit/entrance; and my Karakachan (dog) lays on her side to use this.
> 
> Hope this helps.


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## motdaugrnds

I was glad to help Altair. So many people on this forum have helped me that I feel good being able to pass the kindness to another.

I would be interested in knowing what you winded up doing with your land, if you did get goats what kind and if you did get an LGD what breed. Please know getting dogs acclimated to chickens has been quite different from their guarding the goats. Seems fowl invite a canine to disruptive behavior. Every single dog I've had, including this Karakachan, I've had to "teach" to leave the fowl alone; and this Karakachan has had to learn NOT to follow the guineas off the property, which I came to believe that is what she did for awhile. Seems the dogs on my place at least have had to learn what the different fowl do and permit it without bothering them. Valentina (and Cujo as well) will keep a "flying" predator from landing on this place; yet when the guineas return from their daily excursions, they are permitted to fly lengthy distances low to the ground without either dog bothering them.

Best of luck with your new adventure...


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## motdaugrnds

....updating....

Just a note to let you all know Valentina is still doing well. She is still a very serious-minded canine who will actually stop eating her favorite foods to check out any disturbances; and she and Cujo have intimidated all predators around here so I never have to be concerned about any animal and/or fowl getting harmed.

Most recent event was right after my son returned. He and Valentina have been getting acquainted … slowly … as he is taking it at "her" pace and she is cautious. It is going well. She and Cujo both did get thru a gate at the back of the property recently and, since it had been over a year since they were both outside the boundaries, they both thoroughly enjoyed their excursion. They were only gone a short time but when they returned Valentina was loaded down with "burs" all in her fur. It was difficult to get them all out, especially the ones between her toes. I learned my tiny scissors worked better than a brush for this. She was so sweet about it even though some of those burs were actually sticking her skin. (Cujo's short hair saved him from these as he only had a couple of burs and those he took off himself.)

The adjustments being made at this time has to do with Valentina's learning David is here to stay. Even the ducks/geese changed their behaviors for awhile; but they are now feeding around his feet. Since David has always been good with wild animals I had no real worry about his getting along with Valentina...especially since it was David who actually picked her out of the litter to bring home. But Valentina didn't act as though she remembered him and has had to adjust to his presence all over again. She is doing so beautifully!


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## motdaugrnds

updating...…….

Just a note to let anyone interested know how Valentina (and Cujo) are doing. 

Valentina continues to be serious minded, continues to patrol the parameter fencing; and she and Cujo continue to back each other up when predators venture onto the farm. They kill those without hesitation! (Such a difference in their demeanor from when they're with only the animals that belong here when Cujo is playful and Valentina is so very calm.)

Valentina has been eating dry food ("Pure Balance") pretty well even though she prefers "roasted" chicken. LOL Both dogs weigh about the same (a little over 90 lbs each). 

The only difference I see in Valentina is her "monitoring" of me! When David is around she will lay down and watch; but when he is not around she will follow me around barking at me at times. (Yes I'm still healthy!) 

Both dogs have accepted David's being back on the farm and even enjoy getting attention from him; so I'm well pleased with that.


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## altair

Still glad they're giving you lovely "tales"


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## motdaugrnds

Updating....

Valentina is still working well on this little 6-acre farm. She still patrols the parameter and keeps "all" varmints (air borne too) off...with Cujo's help.

Valentina's long hair is helping her stay cool too...so far. Cujo's short hair is shedding much more than Valentina's long hair; so I brush him more frequently. I am cutting Valentina's long hair in strategic spots just to help her stay cool thru this coming hot summer. (Will be putting out the other 2 kiddie pools for all again too. Valentina loves to stand in those during heat spells.)

Latest incident: I had just got thru raking some pruned limbs into a pile for my son to burn; and it had worn me out. I was on my way back to the house when this occurred. Usually when I leave the garden area it is Cujo who is right by my side and Valentina has to be sent a personal invitation to leave with me. LOL However, this time it was Valentina who was right by my side. She stayed by my side all the way to the back porch; and each time Cujo made an attempt to get near me Valentina would growl at him. Now I've learned enough about this canine to know she was sensing I was physically tired and my balance was not 100%; so she figured I didn't need a muscled up hyper Cujo near me. ROFL Cujo just took it for what it was...a warning...and kept his distance.

Cujo has had the same type of ear infection and rash on his chest area (under chin) that he had last year at this time. The vet charged me over $200 for Rx and cream last year and it did nothing to help him. So this time I decided it must be some type of allergy. David gave him a benedryl tablet each night for a few days; and I washed his ears out, let them dry then poured a mixture of hydrogen pyroxide and apple cider vinegar into them. After all that dried I put some Ivermex on the rashes and some Neosporin on the rash he had been scratching on his chest. It has taken a week but he is looking better. Still I do not really know what has caused this; yet as long as I'm able to clear it up with home remedies I guess he is ok.

Valentina has not had any "hot spots" for years now...not since I've been clipping her long hair in spots and brushing her often.

Both dogs would rather not eat "dry" chow. They prefer the store-bought chicken quarters (10 lb bags for $4.90) roasted with oatmeal. Still I can mix a raw egg up with their dry chow, set the pans down for them to eat, then sit down and watch them. Cujo will immediately start eating his dry chow and Valentina will just stand there and look at me awhile before eating hers. LOL


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## motdaugrnds

Update....

Valentina is still quite healthy with good (not too much) weight on her. She still patrols the fencing and watches the herd from the highest knoll. She often sleeps on the porch with Cujo except when the weather is too bad. Then she prefers the barn with the goats. I often see her laying with the goats as they rest chewing cud throughout the days. She no longer makes attempts to follow the guineas outside our fencing. LOL But will lay at the front gate if they are in that area and watch them. (It is a beautiful sight to see this entire flock fly from that front gate across 2 acres and land where the dogs are....)

Valentina continues to monitor what I do and also tempers Cujo's excitation around me. She enjoys raw meat (after I've washed it if store bought) yet prefers the store-bought chicken to be roasted, chopped & mixed with cooked oatmeal. ROFL (They both love this and get it as often as I can find the 10 lb packaging for under $5.) Since I've been brushing her each summer, she has never had any more hotspots; and the Advantage Plus I use for them both works well. 

Still quite please with my selection of this Karakachan….


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## motdaugrnds

Updating....

Something a bit different occurred this morning that I thought some of you would enjoy hearing about. I had just got thru tending the goats and had let them out to free-range the rest of the day. They all wanted pets before venturing out into the pastures...as usual.

This morning as I was hugging my 250 lb. Nubian buck (He always leans into me for this.) Valentina came up and pushed herself between the buck and myself. Huh? I've seen her get between me and Cujo when he was in an excited state but her "pushing" herself in between me and this herd buck was quite unusual.... Next thing I know Cujo has pushed himself in between Valentina and the buck...not between Valentina and me but between her and the buck...another unusual event. Not sure what to make of this! Valentina "loves" to be hugged "firmly" and that is what I was doing with the buck; but she is not one who demands affection. Yet after she pushed herself in as she did, I did hug her firmly and her tail wagged. (That too is different in that I only see that tail wag when she is enjoying something...not when she is working.) This has led me to believe this Karakachan saw no need to "work" by getting in between the buck and myself. Could she actually have been jealous? An LGD jealous of another animal getting hugs? Not real sure how to think about this. Any ideas?


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## aart

motdaugrnds said:


> Any ideas?


Nope, no idea, but great anecdote 
Could have been 'jealousy'...goats are a lot like dogs and when I had 2 dogs I could rarely pet one without the other wanting some too.


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## motdaugrnds

.... updating ....
Well here it is 2020! It has been quite an enjoyable time watching Valentina develop from puppy hood. Full grown now it is obvious she understands what belongs on these 6 acres and what doesn't. She will let people on yet will constantly monitor where they are and what they do. She will let workers do what needs done, i.e. the oil man delivering the diesel for the furnace and the plumber making repairs; and will not even growl at them. She does stay constantly alert until they leave. (Cujo has no interest in strangers except to say hello.)

The recent events are the usual ones this time of year with kidding times & always at least one bottle-fed Nubian goat. This one is a little girl who was allergic to its mother's colostrum. Wasn't sure she would survive! Yet here she is a couple of months old and quite healthy. I have 3 does in milk, including her dam, and now that the colostrum is out of the udders I have been letting her nurse them. Yes all 3! They will each stand still for her to drink, which constantly amazes me since they are not mothering her during the day. Her mother and the herd buck will let her sleep with them resting her little head on parts of their bodies; so for that I'm thankful. Much of the time this little girl wants to stay with Valentina. It is quite a sight to see Valentina sound asleep and this little doe sleeping next to her with her head on Valentina's tail. Valentina just takes it all in stride as though it is normal for a baby goat to think she is her mother. (David had to put up a temporary gate to keep this little doe off the back porch or she would have been sleeping with the dogs on their beds!)

Still quite pleased with this breed, especially the one I was fortunate to bring home...


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## motdaugrnds

...Updating...........

Heard Valentina cry out twice yesterday; and when checking her we discovered she was near the baby goat (the one who seems to think she is its mother) and the baby goat had cobwebs all over her mouth. Valentina, too, had cobwebs on her mouth and one side of her mouth was swelling fast! We guessed she was trying to get some crawling spider off the baby goat and that spider bit her. We have black widows and banana spiders both out here; so it could be either of these. David cleaned her up and gave her a benadryl. Today the swelling is 90% improved; however, there is a knot there on that side of her mouth. I suspect this is where the spider bit her. 

I don't think we need to take her to a vet; but am not sure. She seems ok today and is eating and getting around as though nothing is wrong. Should I give her another benadryl?


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## aart

motdaugrnds said:


> She seems ok today and is eating and getting around as though nothing is wrong. Should I give her another benadryl?


Probably wouldn't hurt.
Glad sh'es OK.
Reminds me of Libby getting stung in the mouth, the whole side of her face swole up, luckily not her throat.


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## Wolf mom

Love your updates.

Yes - at her weight, another Benadryl shouldn't hurt. She may sleep though.

BTW: Black widows have the messiest web.



https://cdn.britannica.com/12/181112-050-1EB73E66/Black-widow-egg-case.jpg


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## motdaugrnds

ROFL Wolf Mom your signature message made me laugh as I remember doing just that during my education. I majored in Psychology during undergraduate and throughout those 3 yrs thought I had every illness discussed. During graduate work I discovered I was actually quite normal...whatever "normal" was. Finally during my 2nd graduate program and all the 5 yrs of Seminars, Conferences and live-in workshops I finally realized what I have as my signature message in these forums, i.e. "I am what I am! Acknowledging this is the beginning and my growth is yet to end."


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## motdaugrnds

Thought you would all enjoy this little video recently taken of Valentina sitting on top of her favorite knoll guarding the goats....let me see now if I can get it uploaded....nope don't know how.


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## Wolf mom




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## motdaugrnds

I've found "Nutri Complete" dog food that is a raw diet that has been fast dried. It looks and sounds like something that would benefit my dogs and is no more expensive than what I've been feeding them. Has anyone experience with this "Nutri Complete"? If so will you share your experience of how it affected your dog(s)?


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## motdaugrnds

Updating..........
Thought you might be interested in the latest as I've just discovered not only does Valentina keep Cujo calm when near me, growling at him if he gets too close in a hyper condition; but she is also taking care of Cujo. Yes she is letting us know when Cujo is wanting in the house, on the back porch, or wanting out of the house. (As you know Cujo is up in years and, though he is still quite active, his age is showing as he is just a bit slower to move now and he has never been one to "talk" in order to get what he wants. Thus, Valentina has apparently started doing the talking for him. ROFL)


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## motdaugrnds

Updating...........

Well duh me!!! I just figured it out! Valentina never has wanted to stay in the house for long even on cold/bad days. She has always preferred the barn with the goats or the back porch with Cujo................until last summer.

Since last year Valentina has been wanting to use our back door as though it were a swinging/revolving door! This has been quite problematic in that either David or I have to let her in and out! She is consistent too in that she will start with a low whimper then a low bark; and if we are not opening the door for her she will bark louder. She will come in to ????? I thought just to say hello to me since I have not been going outside as often as I use to. But that really did not make a lot of sense because she has never been what I would call a "social" dog. So this has been somewhat puzzling to me.

Well she got worse last week wanting to stay inside most of the time. Of course we have kept the goats locked up due to the bad weather and she cannot get into the barn when it is locked; still they have been locked up before without Valentina being very concerned about it ... and not wanting indoors. Then last Thursday night I got sick again (first time since last summer with same problem) and had to go to the ER (first time since last summer with same problem). I returned home the following day and there was Valentina growling at the people bringing me home; and since then she has been wanting to spend even more time inside.

She will come in, say hello to me (realizing now she has been checking me out) and then go to my bedroom where she will stay until she decides to go outdoors again..which is never very long. She will go out, sit on the back porch steps looking out then want back inside. Or she will go out, take a walk around the barn, check out the fencing and then return wanting back in. Sometimes she will return and lay down on the back porch until she hears one of us walking down the hall; then she barks to let us know she wants back in. Then, again, she will walk in to where I'm sitting then want out again. Well duh!!! I should have understood already! Precious dog is trying to watch me as well as the outdoors (and animals out there). WHAT A DOG!!!


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## motdaugrnds

.....question about clearing undercoat..........

Valentina has long hair and a thick undercoat. All through the years I've been keeping hotspots off her by daily groomings. This summer is looking like it is going to be a really, really hot/humid one; so I'm concerned about her.

Actually called a professional groomer thinking maybe it would be wise to have her hair cut "shorter" instead of just removing the undercoat as I had been doing. The groomer wanted to keep her "all day" for that; and yes Valentina would have been in a kennel the majority of the time. This made no sense to me and could even be traumatic for her as she has NEVER been in a kennel, not even the day she was spayed. 

Now I'm wondering if maybe I could purchase some of the dog shampoo that is purported to remove the undercoat. Have any of you tried it? Care to share your experience?


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## todd_xxxx

motdaugrnds said:


> .....question about clearing undercoat..........
> 
> Valentina has long hair and a thick undercoat. All through the years I've been keeping hotspots off her by daily groomings. This summer is looking like it is going to be a really, really hot/humid one; so I'm concerned about her.
> 
> Actually called a professional groomer thinking maybe it would be wise to have her hair cut "shorter" instead of just removing the undercoat as I had been doing. The groomer wanted to keep her "all day" for that; and yes Valentina would have been in a kennel the majority of the time. This made no sense to me and could even be traumatic for her as she has NEVER been in a kennel, not even the day she was spayed.
> 
> Now I'm wondering if maybe I could purchase some of the dog shampoo that is purported to remove the undercoat. Have any of you tried it? Care to share your experience?


A good undercoat brush works best, and yep, I have a LGD and I know how long you can sit and brush them and it seems like the hair never stops coming out.


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## motdaugrnds

I agree todd_xxxx. David and I decided to take Valentina into the milking area and have her stand on the stanchion where I milk the goats. This saves my back as I can sit down to work. Valentina was a sweetheart! I used some old sewing scissors and just trimmed her coat back a few inches all over where she had been getting it knotted; then gave her another good brushing. (Got a great brush for this that works like a comb that disentangles yet has more than one row of teeth. I googled it so I could give the name; but cannot find it and forgot where I purchased it years ago.) Trimmed her nails while she was standing there too. LOL She always growls when I trim her nails yet she never has tried to bite me; just lets me know she doesn't like it. I just kiss her on the nose and keep trimming her nails. ROFL

Clipping her long fur this way and continuing the brushing/combing out of that undercoat ought to work fine thru this terrible summer's heat.


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## altair

Would thinning shears work?


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## motdaugrnds

Never used thinning shears; so have no idea. Might be worth a try though.


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## Pony

motdaugrnds said:


> Never used thinning shears; so have no idea. Might be worth a try though.


The hairdresser used to use thinning shears on my hair... 

Sadly, these days it is no longer necessary.


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## motdaugrnds

Pony, try some "Biotin".....


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## Pony

motdaugrnds said:


> Pony, try some "Biotin".....


It's in my "real food" multivitamin. (4 capsules per serving. Ugh)

Or did you mean to apply it topically?


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## motdaugrnds

Getting Biotin in your multivitamin should suffice. I take the supplement; and since taking it I've noticed a difference in the thinning of my hair.


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## Wolf mom

After taking Biotin for 3 years, It didn't do anything for me.


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## motdaugrnds

Wolf mom, that sure proves what works for one body may not work for another...........


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## motdaugrnds

Updating............

Finally it appears this terribly difficult summer is over. Yes it is still quite warm during mid-day but nights are quite cold. 

Valentina still gets her brushing though not needed as it was during the summer. Cujo still gets his as well. Both dogs are obviously mature and have slowed down somewhat in their activities (Valentina now 8 yrs & Cujo 13 yrs). Cujo has lots of grey on him and his walking up the stairs is a bit labored; however, he is still backing Valentina up when there is a need to protect the place from perceived predators. Valentina continues her sporadic walks around the parameter fencing though they are not as frequent. (Their work here has paid off in that what might have ventured on this place for a meal has not even attempted to do so for quite awhile.)

Both dogs will venture into the house at times. Cujo has preferred to stay indoors more than usual; whereas Valentina continues to prefer the outdoors. It has become obvious Valentina no longer sees a need to check me out as she has been doing this past year; and I suspect it is because I changed my diet to one more fitting to the needs of my body than to the desire of my taste buds. Both dogs have maintained a weight between 80 > 90 lbs which is quite healthy for them and both dogs will eat their dry chow more readily....even though they both still prefer either cooked or raw fresh meat.

It is difficult to know these wonderful canines are getting old as the pain of a loved one's death is always difficult........and the other animals here always go thru a mourning period too.


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## Wolf mom

Are you thinking of getting another puppy? As you well know, elder dogs teach the youngsters so much.


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## motdaugrnds

Yes we have always kept at least 2 canines on our homestead. And one has always taken care of and taught the new arrival (as Cujo helped Valentina when she first arrived). Just have no idea as yet what type of dog to get this time.


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## motdaugrnds

.....updating...........feeling badly and elated at the same time ..........

Cujo needs surgery to take care of an elongated nipple that has swollen and at times even bleeds. This vet says he is not a good candidate for surgery at his age; yet I've found no way of tending to the situation. We placed some Neosporin on it for awhile with a type of bra but that caused some irritation around the nipple as it kept air away from the area. We have no idea as to what to do. He is still quite active with helping Valentina; yet it is obvious the nipple irritates him. I feel soooooooo much for him..............We actually decided to go ahead with the surgery because we want so badly to give him the best care possible for what time he has left with us. And should he die on the table, at least we tried! When I called the vet's office they tell me the doctor I favor is booked until March. March? So now we are only tending to Cujo's needs as best as we can until then; yet that is not really giving him much. 

On the up side Valentina is still the alert canine she has always been. A few nights back she kept me up and down all night long. Yes all night long! I could not figure out what she kept barking about. The next day it became obvious, i.e. one of the two dead pine trees on our neighbor's property had fallen over the corner of our fencing and crushed the fence down in two places. (Now I understand why Valentina was constantly looking in that direction each time I would go outside to try and find out why she was barking.) She has started making sounds now when she is barking that I've never heard a dog make. I'm suspecting it is because she is quite frustrated with my not knowing what she is barking about and is actually making an attempt to mouth the words in order to tell me. LOL Nope! I wouldn't put anything past this canine! Maybe I should take her to a speech therapist! ROFL


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## motdaugrnds

Well I "think" I've finally figured it out! Still not sure as cannot believe what I'm thinking...........

Several months now Valentina has been "mouthing" noises that only permits me to draw the conclusion she is trying to talk like we humans do. Now don't laugh! The other change has been when she stands at the back door and makes these noises. I have figured she was either telling us she wanted some food or in the house; however, when I open the door only Cujo comes in, goes straight into my bedroom and lays down on one of the "doggy" beds in there. Valentina does not come in. (When Cujo wants out again he will come to one of us to let us know; yet will not bark. In fact I've not heard Cujo bark...even outside...for a long time.) Valentina stays outside and is quiet.......... and I'm wondering if Valentina knows something about Cujo we don't, i.e. that maybe he can no longer bark??? (I've wondered for some time if he had a bone caught in his throat; but the vet has several times told me she saw nothing in there. No X-ray was ever taken.)

It appears now that Valentina has taken to talking for Cujo! Do dogs actually do such things?


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## aart

motdaugrnds said:


> Do dogs actually do such things?


Not sure I'd call it 'talking' but yeah, but not surprising that she found a new way to communicate a new need.


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