# New Muzzleloader



## dltasig7 (Feb 5, 2015)

I checked first and saw some old threads about muzzleloading, but think this new one is warranted.

I am going to purchase a .50 cal inline muzzleloader to start. Eventually, I want to buy the Hawken kit, but not for this first year. I prefer "traditional" looking guns in general (solid wood and blued or black everything else), but it seems as though they are all either camo'd or synth black and stainless. I'll have to get over that.

My price range is as far below a $500 ceiling as possible for this first one.

The major sports stores just don't have a lot of buyer reviews of their muzzleloaders online and I can't seem to find a professional reviewer who covers a gun I can afford or like the style of.

So....It would appear that Thompson/Center is the way to go.

As a newbie, I am not too concerned about the nuances of propellant and bullet type just yet, as I'll assume that manufacturer/model recommendations will narrow those decisions anyway.

I am however, curious about bullet type and brand preferences.

Thank You In Advance!


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Go check your local pawn shop.. .around here they almost have to pay you to take one... A dime a dozen... Even many Hawkens, Kentucky, PA, and any other style gun you can think of... 

Check the gun over very carefully to be sure it had been cleaned well, and it's not all rusted up...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Check the hunting regulations for where you will be hunting (assuming you will) because some states have restrictions on calibers and ignition type, and the use of scopes.

I once got an excellent deal on a Knight Disc Elite because the guy who bought it new didn't realize it wasn't legal where he wanted to hunt.

The newer inlines will normally do best with conical bullets or handgun bullets in sabots, but you will need to experiment to find the most accurate combinations for a particular rifle.

I've had great results with 44 Cal, 300 Grain Hornady XTP's in nearly every rifle I've tried them in as long as the twist rate was more than 1-48.

It's not hard to find good deals on used guns, and all the good name brands give good performance. 

I've never seen Knight rifle that wouldn't shoot 1" 100 yd groups with the right loads, and I've seen some TC's that would do as well.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I second a used Muzzle loader. If you do shop for a use one there are some things to look for.

(1. Muzzle bore look for rust pits and such, yes it is hard to see way down in a bore. either spend a little on a bore lite.
http://morrismuzzleloading.com/inc/sdetail/rmc_muzzleloading_bore_light/99/125

http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/...k-Powder-Accessories/prod9999010706/cat100010

A wad of tin foil and a light like a mag lite works some what also.

Go to some of the sites like modern muzzle loader and grey beard and look in their classified section also.

Some people just want the latest and greatest so sell off last years rifle for this years model.

I my self in My 50 cal 1:48 twist ML use a green MMP sabot, http://mmpsabots.com/
With 300 gr. Speer gold dot .429 bullets, their bonded and rated for ML velocities. I use Triple seven loose powder as it is the easiest powder to find local other than Prodex, easy to clean and shoots well with either #11 caps or 209 primers.

I like loose so I can adjust my charge from say 50 to 55 grains or 70 to 90 grains. To carry reloads in the woods a tube with a cap works just as well as pellets. 
Rarely do you need more than 125gr. of powder even though some rifles are ratted way higher. 

 Al


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Yep, used muzzle loaders are a dime a dozen. You can probably pick up something pretty nice for $2-300.

I bought a Thompson Center due to the hype they were getting, every TV hunting guy talking them up, etc. and haven't been overly impressed. Just can't get the accuracy out of it that they preach. Best I can do is a skoal can sized group at 100 yards. It starts getting pretty sloppy beyond that.

A couple suggestions:
a. No matter what brand, go with a type that breaks open like a single shot shotgun to put the primer on. These are real easy to clean, by simply removing the breech plug.
b. Stainless is a good idea, muzzle loader powders are corrosive.
c. Get one that uses shotgun primers rather than the old style "caps", hotter and more reliable.
d. A scope and sling are a good idea.
e. If you want to keep it simple, just use (2) 50 grain pellets rather than loose powder and a saboted bullet such as Hornady, or bullet with built in sabot such as Power Belt.
f. Clean between every shot when sighting in, and clean after every shooting session.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Here are some examples from my local gun shop. I think they can ship a ML direct to you also. I have bought several from them and they don't sell un kept ML's.

http://shop.williamsgunsight.com/moreinfo.aspx?pid=009623&cs=/products.aspx&ai=M


http://shop.williamsgunsight.com/moreinfo.aspx?pid=054513&cs=/products.aspx&ai=M

http://shop.williamsgunsight.com/moreinfo.aspx?pid=010077&cs=/products.aspx&ai=M

I have 2 of these a 50 cal and a 54 cal they shoot just about every thing you stuff down the bore well including a patched round ball. they have also became popular by those who want to convert them to be able to use with smoke less powder. Remington's are fairly easy to clean as the breach plug comes out and they supplied a tube you screw in it's place so you can use soap and scalding water to clean it and not get the trigger mec. wet. Or you can use any type of gun cleaner. The ram rod is alum has an extension and handle that is as strong as any range rod.

http://shop.williamsgunsight.com/moreinfo.aspx?pid=010592&cs=/products.aspx&ai=M

T/C rifles hold their value better than some. I never liked the trigger guard on the Omega felt tight if you were wearing gloves and had sharpe edges I felt.

http://shop.williamsgunsight.com/moreinfo.aspx?pid=009862&cs=/products.aspx&ai=M

 Al


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

muzzle loader users are usually on one of 2 groups 

season extenders or traitonalists / re-eneactors / would be re-eneactors 

I very much started as a season extender , then crossed over a few people do this but not a ton.


if your goal was strait up season extender meat hunter the CVA wolf is hard to beat for a easy to maintain meat producer with out of the box hunt able hundred yard accuracy , reasonable cost , good ignition


if you like side locks they are more work , and less power , but a lot of fun to shoot at times other than just deer season.
there are a lot of thompson center hawkens around 250-350 can get you a decent example with a clean barrel and a few handling marks depending how patient you are 

check into NY state rules on muzzle loader sales all the free state enjoy sending them through the mail no questions asked but NY might need a dealer 

I have a guy locally who deals mainly in side lock Lyman and Thompson he had some nice guns in the 250-300 price range at the last gun show a few weeks ago

check on shipping restrictions to NY first then if your interested I can get you his number 


the other thing most people don't tell you up front , you need several accessories to really use your muzzle loader 

a range rod 
cleaning Jag 
patch worm 
powder measure 
short starter 
balls 
patch material
nipple wrench

a capper is nice also


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Where did you get the idea that side locks were less power full? Most ML's are rated for the volume of powder they can handle, for example my T/C Hawkins is rated at 120gr, patched round ball or sabot with pistol bullet or conical. 



My T/C plains rifle is rated at 120gr, patched round ball or sabot with pistol bullet or conical.



Both of my Remington 700 Ml's are rated at 120gr, patched round ball or sabot with pistol bullet or conical.



Some of the newer ones claim magnum ratings but they are only holding 150gr except for the NEW Remington 700 ultimate. 

Most shooters who have been around the block a time or 2 will tell you the magnums still shoot best with a powder charge between 90 and 120 grains of powder patched round ball sabot with pistol bullet or conical.


http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/forum/

You do not need a range rod you can get by with the ram rod. 
You don't need a patch worm if you use the right patch on the cleaning jag, in 40 years of Ml shooting and hunting I have never used one.
powder measure 
short starter 
balls if you shoot round balls and not sabots with pistol bullets or conicals.
patch material, Pillow ticking with the sizer washed out if you are going to shoot round balls 
nipple wrench some 209 systems a nipple wrench won't work
a capper, one to fit either ignition system your rifle has. a 209 one #11 caps or musket caps.

I swab between shots each and every one, carry pre packed swabs from Wally world in the field even.



Here is why and testing found this.



 Al


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

most side locks are rated to 120 gr and most new inline are rated to 150gr 

it isn't power you need , because best accuracy in either is almost never found at max load , but the side locks hive up some in ignition power over the inline 209 ignition it may not be needed ignition power but a 209 pushes through what might make a #11 cap not set off the charge.


there are also a few inlines than can use smokeless powder , no side locks do that

inline with the 209 and or 209 and blackhorn 209 powder substitute can push velocities higher than triple 7 but stock side locks can't ignite the blackhorn209 powder do you need this touch of extra velocity , no , it may not even be the most accurate but they are pushing thing harder 

inline tend to also have a 1:28 or 1:30 twist that can stabilizes heavy 410gr conical than the 1 :48 has issues with stabilizing and that the 1 in 66 can't do 

I have both , actually more side locks than inline , and I enjoy the side locks a lot I do have a 320gr conical that will stabilize in the 1in 48 twist and 320 is plenty for midwestern white tail deer but it is less than the energy that the 410gr conical can bring 

you can build a fast twist side lock , people have done it but they don't come that way from the factory.

I was reading some of the writings of a guy out west that builds fast twist side locks to comply with laws in the western states he runs a fast twist green mountain barrel with paper patched and sized cast lead bullets and does some impressive long range shooting with a vernier sight but that is essentially what the rules in the western states are trying to keep people from doing by requiring side locks, no sabots or power belts and no optics he us worked at it and found a way around it but these rules keep every season extender out there from grabbing an off the shelf inline and making 250 yard shots on game with a load purchased in a store.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I don't under stand those that want to pay the higher cost of BH 209 powder.
Most will say because they don't want to have to clean their rifle. 
They sure would be raising cane if their wife just put dirty dishes back on the table for a meal or put dirty clothes back in draws and closets.

Real black and the subs clean up easy and you can wait a little before doing a in depth cleaning. If you have to travel to a range just run a couple of Windex patch down the bore before you come home. then instead of watching some mind less TV show for a 1/2 hour do a good cleaning.

 Al


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

more power is not needed and I prefer real black if you can find a source , many gun stores won't carry it because they would have to have a separate storage enclosure (keg) and they just don't sell enough to make it worth their while.

you can order it 25 or 50 pounds at a time to be delivered to your home depending on your state , ideally you find some friends at the club and each get 5 or 10 pounds to help split up the shipping then it can be very reasonably priced 

I have a dealer about a 2 hour drive away that I make a run to about every other year and pick some up , it probably costs more than shipping but there is a great restaurant with fried chicken and pie on the way so it's just a nice drive

if you don't have a supply of real black locally then 777 is my preferred substitute , it meters well and ignites well , but it doesn't smell quite right when burnt


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

I like the idea of a used muzzleloader.
I bought this Thompson Renegade off Gunbroker pretty reasonable, and I honestly don't think it had ever been loaded.








Also have a Knight Vison inline and an old Navy Arms 50 that is a booger to clean


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## dltasig7 (Feb 5, 2015)

Cornhusker said:


> I like the idea of a used muzzleloader.
> I bought this Thompson Renegade off Gunbroker pretty reasonable, and I honestly don't think it had ever been loaded.
> 
> 
> ...


A Beauty


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## RonM (Jan 6, 2008)

you can buy a WOLF with optics for around $240..I am not sure if the Wolf is CVA...


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

dltasig7 said:


> A Beauty


Thanks


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Yes the Wolf is a CVA rifle. Still can't compare to a used rife in price.

 Al


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## nyhunter (Nov 14, 2014)

Ive been shooting a Thomson Center Black diamond XR for years and it'll still shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yrds. I started off shooting 150 grns of 777 pellets but backed it down to 100 with no loss in performance. Bought my brother the CVA wolf in camo with nickle plated barrel and its a nice gun but the collapsable ramrod is weak and is easy to bend.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Range rod is good investment for range shooting.

 Al


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