# Bull to cow ratio???



## greatwhiteape (Dec 3, 2012)

Lets say that you are mob grazing on irrigated pasture.

Stocking rates claim that you can go as high as 500,000 pounds per acre. 

You are grazing quarter acre pasture daily with 60 cows (and their calves).

Could one bull handle all 60 cows without missing any?

I ask this because he would never have to travel more than 100 feet to find the cow in estrus.


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

I'm not sure that intensive grazing and bull power are directly related. I think there's a little more to it than simply locating the cows. I've always heard that the number of cows should not exceed the bull's age in months. 

Here's an article on bull power that seems fairly comprehensive. It has a lot of good info on caring for bulls. Scroll down to the small table that outlines bull to cow ratio: 

http://www.thecattlesite.com/articles/717/bull-purchasing-and-management


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

greatwhiteape said:


> Lets say that you are mob grazing on irrigated pasture.
> 
> Stocking rates claim that you can go as high as 500,000 pounds per acre.
> 
> ...


Stocking rate and stocking density are two different things and I'm a little confused about what you mean, because you can get a much higher density than 500,000 #'s per acre. It does seem like a high density helps the bull walk less, or maybe it's just the better nutrition... 

I can't address the bull question from personal experience, but have had a lot of people tell me theirs and I'll relay those. _"It depends on the bull."_ Grain feeding reduces the fertility, as do permethrins, so it seems to me that there's some benefit in raising your cattle au natural, if you can.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

If you have a defined calving season you will need more bulls in the mix. If you calve all year around that will change greatly!


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

I am trying to visualize 60+ cows on 1/4 acre of pasture (ummm, what pasture?). How do you spell feedlot?

greatwhiteape, if you are even remotely serious about this, please reconsider.


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## ksfarmer (Apr 28, 2007)

greatwhiteape said:


> Lets say that you are mob grazing on irrigated pasture.
> 
> Stocking rates claim that you can go as high as 500,000 pounds per acre.
> 
> ...


I must be missing something! Are you saying you could have 500 cows (1000lbs each) on one acre of irrigated pasture?? This is more cows than a feedlot would have in such a concentrated area. There durn sure wouldn't be any grass left. 
As G.Seddon says: 60 cows on 1/4 acre?? I think someone needs to recheck their figures. Common sense says this is impossible.
Might be a lot of bull somewhere??


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

For a controlled breeding season, 60 cows to one bull is way too many. Don't take the risk, don't skimp on bulls. Open cows cost you money. 

Feeding grain doesn't make bulls infertile in and of itself. *Overfeeding* bulls especially when they are still growing/developing is what can create problems.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

60 cow calf units on 1/4 acre? I don't think so.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

Y'all are having the same trouble I did, his terminology about stocking rate vs. stocking density is confusing. You can stock at the density he's talking about (I know, because I often do), but that's not the stocking rate, unless it's a feed yard.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

I am feeding roughly 100 mature animals and 46+ calves on 36000 sq. feet of fescue seeded paddock per day currently. 0ne mature bull has been very capable of impregnating the cows that are on a year round calving operation. All animals are in a single herd.
This is a typical 120 ft by 300 ft daily allocation of stockpiled fescue. Part of the paddock is hidden by the hill in the forefront. I permit small calves to graze ahead of the herd as seen.


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## greatwhiteape (Dec 3, 2012)

Agmantoo, thanks for the response.

The quarter acre pasture is just what they get at one sitting. The cattle get moved at least once per day depending on available forage. With a system like this I had planned on having 30 irrigated acres, broken into 120 quarter acre paddocks. The animals would be let out on one paddock per day and there would be a 120 day rotation before hitting the same paddock again. Obviously, things don't always work out perfectly, but that is the plan.

Under this system you only graze each paddock for one day, and only three times annually. You may think of it as a feedlot, and I guess that it is a feedlot of sorts. Instead of using expensive grain though you are forcing your animals to consume as much of the grass forage as possible every day. 

Stocking rate or density? I'm not big on the technical terms. What I'm trying to do is put the cattle on JUST ENOUGH pasture to make sure that they get their fill of forage for the day without allowing them to be picky or choosy about what they're eating. Then the next day you move them onto another little piece of pasture that has been growing for 120 days. From my research it is absolutely the most cost effective way to feed beef cattle.

I had planned on cutting hay, preferably for selling as I hope that my cattle will have enough to eat solely from grazing. This will be my first stab at Mob grazing so I think that its smart to have at least a 30 day supply of hay on hand for every animal. 

I'm trying to start small, which is why I am only going to devote 30 acres to this project at the moment. If there end up being too many animals on this piece, which I don't think that there will be, I'm sure I won't have a lot of problems selling bred heifers for more than I paid for open heifers. 

There is a lot of science behind this, but I don't want to dive full in without running it on a small scale first. 

My family has raised polled hereford cattle traditionally grazing them and finishing on grain for steers and feeding tons of hay all winter long to breeding stock. When I see a better way to do something, and hopefully a better animal in lowline angus cattle, I want to make the change.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

greatwhiteape 

If you have not already done some reading on the sticky above on rotational grazing I strongly suggest that you do. Post your questions regarding rotational grazing there and I attempt to answer them. I did not see any reference as to your location. I have never owned any lowline cows but I can tell you that in my process a frame size 4 or under weighing about 1050 lbs performs best. On grass alone you will not want a heavy milking animal. You will want your calves consuming grass and quantities of it as early as possible allowing the cow to breed back and stay in condition for the next calf. I try to hold the brood stock in body condition score 5, never heavier. When I moved the herd this afternoon I took a pic that better represents the 120 ft by 300 ft layout. The white posts are 60 ft apart so it is easy for me to know how much area I am allocating. PS...on the left of the pic you can see the calves grazing ahead of the herd and hopefully putting on weight from the better forage.


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## greatwhiteape (Dec 3, 2012)

I read about 20 pages of stuff earlier and didn't see anything on bull to cow ratio. I'm in NJ at the moment, but will be attempting this project in Georgia.


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## Gregg Alexander (Feb 18, 2007)

Rule of thumb is mature bull for every 20-25 cows. Long yearling bull can cover 15-20 cows. Use more bulls to cover your cows.


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

greatwhiteape, what experience do you have with cattle?


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Your question hinges on: Frame score, condition score, soundness, libido, diet, muscleing, energy, age, scrotal circumference, structural correctness, and so on. Use the rule of thumb that Gregg A mentioned as a starting point. Topside


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## opportunity (Mar 31, 2012)

I do not think you will have all the cows breed on the first heat let alone the second it's not just about finding the cows but allso about servicing them. You can use a bull to service more cows but it takes more time even if he is with them he can't be in two places at one and it takes time to "refill" You bull would also loose a lot of condition working that hard.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

Wanda said:


> If you have a defined calving season you will need more bulls in the mix. If you calve all year around that will change greatly!


 
This is the biggest issue. How spread out do you want your calving to be? 

If you want a tight calving season, you'll need more bulls. Only problem is with two bulls in a small space, the dominant bull will keep the other bull from breeding, so the second bull won't be worth as much. And there will be fighting, and wasted energy with two bulls breeding the same female. Would be best to divide the herd so only one bull per section.

Some good reading:
http://www.sdstate.edu/vs/extension/beef/upload/ExEx2066-Bull-Fertility.pdf


*



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Click to expand...





ocial 

Click to expand...

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> D*o*m*inance**. *[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]A definite social ranking develops among bulls, and this ranking may affect the number of cows a given bull will service in a multiple-sire herd (table 3). Livestock managers must be aware of these relationships to ensure normal breeding rates. For example, a dominant bull with poor semen quality or low libido could reduce pregnancy rates for an entire herd, even when more fertile subordinate bulls are present.
> [/FONT][/FONT]*Table 3. *[FONT=Helvetica Neue,Helvetica Neue][FONT=Helvetica Neue,Helvetica Neue]Percent calf crop sired by individual sires in multiple sire pastures ([/FONT][/FONT]_[FONT=Helvetica Neue,Helvetica Neue][FONT=Helvetica Neue,Helvetica Neue]Adapted from Lehrer et al. 1977_[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue,Helvetica Neue][FONT=Helvetica Neue,Helvetica Neue]).[/FONT][/FONT]
> [FONT=Helvetica Neue,Helvetica Neue][FONT=Helvetica Neue,Helvetica Neue][/FONT][/FONT]
> [FONT=Helvetica Neue,Helvetica Neue][FONT=Helvetica Neue,Helvetica Neue]A bullâs seniority is the major factor influencing its social ranking; the dominant bull in a breeding cadre is likely to be an older bull (Chenoweth 1997). Therefore, it is important not to introduce a young (yearling) bull into a herd with an older, more mature bull. Introducing young bulls into a herd with an older bull can be avoided by separating cows into single-sire breeding groups. In multiple-sire breeding groups, multiple bulls tend to breed the same sexually responsive females. This leads both to females being bred by more than one bull and to an increased risk of bull injury.



[/FONT][/FONT]


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## greatwhiteape (Dec 3, 2012)

G. Seddon said:


> greatwhiteape, what experience do you have with cattle?


I've been raising polled herefords here in New Jersey for 14 years. We've always just stuck them on pasture at about one cow per acre and then just fed hay when the grass got in short supply. Always fed grain to finish off anything we were gonna eat or sale.

I have always watched my family stick to the old ways and throw money out the window.


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## greatwhiteape (Dec 3, 2012)

Gregg Alexander said:


> Rule of thumb is mature bull for every 20-25 cows. Long yearling bull can cover 15-20 cows. Use more bulls to cover your cows.


I've always heard 1 cow per month of age up to three years. I didn't know if the bull having to cover less ground would effect his fire power. 

I don't mind using more bulls, that just means splitting the herd and having more fencing.


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## greatwhiteape (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't care as much about a tight calving season as I do about getting a calf out of every cow every year. Here in Jersey calving season is kind of important because of the snow and what not. As long as its not crazy cold and as long as their is forage to eat, I don't care when the calves drop.


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## greatwhiteape (Dec 3, 2012)

topside1 said:


> Your question hinges on: Frame score, condition score, soundness, libido, diet, muscleing, energy, age, scrotal circumference, structural correctness, and so on. Use the rule of thumb that Gregg A mentioned as a starting point. Topside


I'm familiar with all of the general signs of a good bull. I would never put a bad bull out...maybe an old broken bull if I thought I could squeeze another calf or two out of him before sending him off to balogna town.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

So you're talking about running 60 cows and their calves on 30 acres year 'round. I think that's optimistic. I suggest starting less aggressively and being more flexible in your planning. Subdividing everything into fixed size paddocks sounds nice, but even with irrigation I think things will change enough throughout the year to warrant changing the paddock sizes to match.


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

greatwhiteape, I think (hope) you're trying to pull an April Fool's joke on us 3 months early.

You can't seriously suggest putting 60 cows on 1/4 acre of space (dirt) calving year-round in Georgia. IMO, this borders on inhumane!


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## greatwhiteape (Dec 3, 2012)

G. Seddon said:


> greatwhiteape, I think (hope) you're trying to pull an April Fool's joke on us 3 months early.
> 
> You can't seriously suggest putting 60 cows on 1/4 acre of space (dirt) calving year-round in Georgia. IMO, this borders on inhumane!


G. Seddon,

This has gone right over your head.

1/4 acre PER DAY.

There would be 120 1/4 acre size paddocks. They would be moved to a new paddock every day for 120 days. The first paddock gets 120 days to recover from grazing.

I hope that everyone reads this, or learns what MOB grazing is, before blasting me for being inhumane.


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## cowbelle (Mar 5, 2009)

This heading reminded me of a joke - A rancher was giving a "ranch tour" to some city folks. He told them there was one bull for every 20 cows. One lady raised her hand and asked, "How does he know which ones are his?"


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Their forage will become (inedible/trampled) contaminated with urine, feces, and mud by noon-time. Yes I know what mob grazing is, and in my opinion 1/4 lot ain't going to cut it....Topside


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

Okay, you can breathe a sigh of relief as I think this will be my final post on this thread.

You are talking about 60+ animals on 1/4 acre calving year-round in Georgia, moving them daily. Never mind that this many animals can barely turn around in that amount of space, much less eat. You've never even mentioned water or shade. In addition to the phenomenal amount of manure and flies, consider the fact that between April and October the temps will average from 77-93. Cattle begin to feel the effects of heat stress at about 80 degrees, and that doesn't include the stress of calving, but I doubt you'll have much of a calf crop in these conditions, given the fertility difficulties associated with heat stress. Let's not forget that Georgia is in the midst of a major drought.

What you are proposing does not comply with any decent standards of care for cattle; it is unhealthy and, yes, inhumane IMO.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

G. Seddon said:


> Okay, you can breathe a sigh of relief as I think this will be my final post on this thread.
> 
> You are talking about 60+ animals on 1/4 acre calving year-round in Georgia, moving them daily. Never mind that this many animals can barely turn around in that amount of space, much less eat. You've never even mentioned water or shade. In addition to the phenomenal amount of manure and flies, consider the fact that between April and October the temps will average from 77-93. Cattle begin to feel the effects of heat stress at about 80 degrees, and that doesn't include the stress of calving, but I doubt you'll have much of a calf crop in these conditions, given the fertility difficulties associated with heat stress. Let's not forget that Georgia is in the midst of a major drought.
> 
> What you are proposing does not comply with any decent standards of care for cattle; it is unhealthy and, yes, inhumane IMO.


greatwhiteape is not as far off as you may think! He has acknowledged the lack of experience with rotational grazing and that his family produce cattle conventionally. In post 12 above that paddock has 348 sq ft of area per mature animal whereas with 60 head of mature animals greatwhiteape"s area would only have to be increased to .47 acre to provide adequate forage. The grass in post 12 is drought impacted otherwise under ideal conditions I could feed the herd on a smaller allotment. Cattle are watered ideally with waterers located no more than 800 distance from where they are grazing with the waters accessed by a lane. The lane is also functioning as a paddock to be grazed but will suffer from traffic during times of use. As for flies, once the paddocks are grazed I drag the areas to distribute the manure. In turn, the sun dries the particles and the manure becomes unsuitable for fly reproduction. The expense of dragging the paddocks is significantly offset by the manure value helping reduce/eliminate the need to purchase commercial fertilizer.
IMO greatwhiteape is just new to the concept and is on the way to profitability. Without being me it would be hard to understand how many times I have been told "that won't work", "it won't work here" or "you are going to lose you axx" 
Why cannot we tell greatwhiteape he will need to refine his plans somewhat and adapt what he wants to accomplish to his Georgia operation?


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

greatwhiteape said:


> This has gone right over your head. ........1/4 acre PER DAY.


It hasn't gone over _my_ head. You are talking about putting 120 large animals onto 1/4 acre.

I've got a fenced 1/2 acre orchard and visualizing 120 head of cattle on that and they wouldn't have room to turn around, let alone graze. Grass would be covered in feces and urine and trampled in the first hour. And that is twice the area you think you can put 120 cattle into.

Feedlots don't crowd their cattle that badly and feedlots are feeding in bunkers so the cattle aren't standing on and crapping on their food.

_Not enough space for that number of cow calf units!_


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## ycanchu2 (Oct 21, 2011)

I'm not sure that 120 day rest period is necessary unless you are in a drought. If I were able to go 90 days or even 60 days i would be tickled. This past year most of my rest periods were 30 to 40 days. One thing is for sure, you will learn by doing.


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## ycanchu2 (Oct 21, 2011)

Here is an interesting article or two about brix readings.....
http://www.articlesbase.com/environ...s-animal-raising-more-profitable-1116237.html

http://www.articlesbase.com/environ...these-affect-brix-meters-results-1092538.html


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

greatwhiteape, please don't be discouraged in the principle of what you're trying to do. I just think your numbers are a little off (at that density I think you'll have to move at least twice a day) and encourage you to take it slow, because it a cattle wreck is very expensive. 

You say it's irrigated, is there any shade?

ycanchu2, 30-40 days? Here in middle TN I couldn't get away with that except in the spring blaze of growth.


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## ycanchu2 (Oct 21, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> ycanchu2, 30-40 days? Here in middle TN I couldn't get away with that except in the spring blaze of growth.


i wasn't mob grazing. I was giving them 2 to 3 acres (40) cows, every day or two days, so they were just getting the tops off the the grass mostly. my grass is not that good...i'm recovering from years of continuous grazing, my cattle like short grass as do everyone's I guess, so they would go to the spots, their favorite spots they had picked short for years and essentially leave the bigger spots of fescue and orchard grass, I didn't force them to eat everything, which really allowed the devolopment of the fescue and orchard grass spots which is allowing me more winter grazing now.hopefully, the overgrazed 'spots" will become smaller and smaller allowing smaller paddock sizes, which in turn will give longer rotation ability. keep in mind we have had pretty good rainfall here since mid July.


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## greatwhiteape (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm just trying to find a way to stay in this "hobby". I can't afford to stay in this game the way that I am doing it now. 

I didn't give you guys a full outline of the plan, but water, shade, fly management, and all that have been taken into consideration. If my paddock sizes need to be adjusted that is all part of the game. That part I can figure out with my eyeballs in a day or three. 

I was just trying to figure out how many cows I could run with a bull. That would take me an entire year to figure out, so I was hoping to get a little advice from someone that may have been there and done that already. 

Guys, this is how serious I am about this. I am attaching a picture of my current bull. This bloodline has been in my family for three generations. I have the LAST bull, unless one we want to keep pops up in the spring. He's every ounce of 2600 pounds and hunts cows in estrus down like the terminator. When I make the move south, he ain't coming with me. None of these big frame, corn guzzling herefords are coming with me. I'm like a Chevy guy willing to buy a Ford. 

And yes, that is them eating hay in the grazed down, hoof trodden, paddock. This picture shows you EXACTLY why I need to change things up.


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## 3legdonkey (Sep 18, 2011)

Having been a teenager at one point in my life I can tell you from personal experience that there is a limit to the ability of one male animal to service a number of female animals irrespective of their proximity... Or to put it another way there is a recharge time required between shots that cannot be overcome by proximity or even desire. I would get your lone bull a friend to help with his duties as the friend can both encourage and fill in where needed.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

3legdonkey said:


> Having been a teenager at one point in my life I can tell you from personal experience that there is a limit to the ability of one male animal to service a number of female animals irrespective of their proximity... Or to put it another way there is a recharge time required between shots that cannot be overcome by proximity or even desire. I would get your lone bull a friend to help with his duties as the friend can both encourage and fill in where needed.


Some bull are better than others

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Simmons

Read the controversy section 

Ape,
Keep us posted - I am thinking along the same lines and am a few years behind you.


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## 3legdonkey (Sep 18, 2011)

HDRider said:


> Some bull are better than others


 True. But do you want to bet your farm on a single bull? And I am a little disappointed in his numbers. With equivalent access I would have hit that number in less time... grin.


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## greatwhiteape (Dec 3, 2012)

3legdonkey said:


> True. But do you want to bet your farm on a single bull?


I had planned on trying to run four separate herds, with four separate blood lines, to try to improve the cattle genetically as I go. So, technically I would have three back up bulls should one bull go down. Granted, that group of cows would be calving later than the rest, but its still a viable option. In an absolute worst case scenario I could AI them. 

I know that the experts advise against running more than one herd, even if it means running multiple bulls with your herd, due to efficiency. I heard Greg Judy talking about some guy in Africa who turns out 4,000 cows with 400 bulls and just lets them go to town on each other. 

I would like to continue breeding and selling registered breeding stock as well, so the idea of running multiple bulls with the same herd of cows doesn't work for me. I need to know who the daddy is. Greg Judy's boy said that the strongest bulls get to breed. I don't think my customers would want to see that on the registry, "Sire: ???" lol. It would be like an episode of Maury, "you are not the father".


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## jbo9 (Oct 30, 2012)

You might not be too far off with a 60-1 ratio if you are willing to accept a longer calving season. And it wouldn't have to be all year round either. 75 days would be opportunity for most cows to cycle 3 times. 90 days would be that much better. 
I've heard of using 50 to 1, but I don't know the details of that management plan.
Have your bull fertility tested before you start and when you want to pull him, you could either test him again to see how potent he still is, or wait a couple of months, preg check your cows and turn him back out on the opens, creating two calving seasons. Let us know how it turns out.


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## 3legdonkey (Sep 18, 2011)

It sounds like you are operating outside of the bounds of what the "experts" are usually advising on. You are shooting to maximize your profit per cow by providing something different. Whereas most are trying to maximize their overall profit by selling more. Assuming your base numbers work out to keep you operating then there is no reason to not just go for it and then modify your plans as necessary to improve your success over time.


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