# starting herd with bottle calves???



## WC44 (Apr 6, 2016)

Hey everyone, this is my first post on here. I have read a lot but just joined. I have a question, and I will put a few different variables/options with it. I would appreciate your honest opinions on what steps I should take.

I am looking at starting our herd next spring. I want to raise beef cattle with minimal expense (just like most do). I have been planning on just purchasing some Angus, probably Lowline, bred heifers, probably 3 of them, and grow the herd slowly. But I have been thinking of another option.

I know you can get bottle calves relatively cheap, could I get 3 or 4 bottle calve heifers and raise them to breeding age, and then AI with Lowline? That would give 50% Lowline if I used fullblood. Then by the time those calves were bred it would be higher depending on what % Lowline I used.

I know one concern when crossing dairy and beef, when you do it for beef purposes, is that the cows will be lean and not meaty. Would it be better to use jersey or holstien?

I understand that this would take some years to build a herd, but I would rather do it slowly and build it at lower cost than jump in and spend $10,000 right off the bat. 

I would keep the heifers and sell the steers. I would also like to do this as a grass-fed operation.

Would the best market for beef like this be sale barn or direct marketing? 

I feel that by the 3rd generation of calves I would have some beefy cattle.

I really appreciate any help/opinions/options you can think of.

I live on my grandfathers old dairy farm, with fences and barns and a tractor. So the biggest expense is the starter cows for the herd.


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## CIW (Oct 2, 2007)

There's a BIG outfit in Minnesota, Wulf Cattle Company. It is a grass to fork company.
They even have their own packing plant.
I remember that they had a calf buy back program if you used their semen and/or bulls.
They hitched up, I think that they eventually purchased, a BIG jersey dairy in Morris, Minnesota.
One of their endeavers was that they were crossing Limousine bulls onto Jersey milk cows, developing line of cattle that performed well as a brood cow, and good for the meat packer.
One particular thing that I gleaned was that they were only breeding to jersey cows after their 3rd calf otherwise they were having too many calving problems. It probably helped them maintain the genetics for the dairy by using jersey semen for the first 3 calves.
I'm sure that there are a lot more details to whats going on up there. You may want to check it out.
wulfcattle.com
riverviewllp.com


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

I would think buying the bred heifers would be cheaper...a lot goes into bottle calves.


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## WC44 (Apr 6, 2016)

Or would it be better to buy bottle calvesand raise them to market weight and sell them? I am not looking to get rich doing this but would like to turn a little bit of a profit. I could also see the option of buying replacement heifers and getting them artificially inseminated with the breed that I want


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

There is nothing cheap in the cattle business right now. Older bred cows might be the best bet right now.


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## WC44 (Apr 6, 2016)

Yes I agree, there is nothing cheap about it. I am just trying to find the most economical way to get my feet wet. I am definitely open to different options


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

WC44, I'm not any sort of expert on this, but if you are somewhat new to cattle, I think you'll do better with older bred cows as Allen_W suggests. They are less likely to have calving problems than heifers having their first calf. You could also start with a few steers (not from a sale barn unless you have an experienced person with you to help select); steers are a great way to learn how to care for cattle without the worry of breeding, calving, keeping a bull, etc. Steers will help you get your feet wet and build your confidence. Get good healthy, dam-raised steers that have been properly vaccinated and weaned. That would be my advice, for what it's worth!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Welcome. 
Thousands of folks with far greater experience and expertise than you and I have spent decades figuring the angles to raising beef cattle with minimal expense.
If there is something special about your situation that puts you at an advantage over the rest of the crowd, use that and hope to be able to raise anything with less expense than everyone else. As an example, land is cheap in my area and taxes low. But my growing season is short. No use for me to grow watermelons. But pasture is a good option for me. 
Some folks have a nice existing barn that would make a nice area for raising bottle calves. Folks that have worked through the learning curve and buried their early attempts, gaining a high percentage of keeping them alive, could count that as their advantage. If you&#8217;d have to build a shelter and begin your education in raising them, it won&#8217;t be cheap, may not be economical ever.
Farmers have beef cows to raise calves. There is seldom any advantage for them to sell as week olds. Normally they calve in the spring and the calves are sold in the fall as feeders. 
Farmers have dairy cows to produce milk. While smaller operations raise their replacement heifers, most sell their calves as soon as possible. Lots of folks buy week old Holstein bull calves and heifers and sell them when they reach 500 pounds. Dairy breed steers sell for 10 to 15% less than beef steers. Not a lot of difference, really.
Over the decades, I&#8217;ve seen up close how new inexperienced wanabe farmers get skinned by buying something odd ball. If lowliness were economical, everyone would raise them. They are a unique choice. Those that raise them sign on to doing a ton of marketing them to others attracted to this unique choice. Too often situations change and the owners of these unique choices take huge losses when they cannot drum up other new inexperienced wanabe farmers to buy their offspring. They take a huge hit at a livestock auction, due to their uniqueness. Crossing them with normal cattle hits you coming and going. Not quite unique and not quite accepted by the cattle buyers.
You asked for opinions and I think any excuse to raise lowliness went out when freezers were invented. 
Healthy bottle calves are between 2 and 300 bucks and a lot of care and feed by the time they are grown. If you aren&#8217;t an expert at picking out the healthy ones and saving them afterwards, they get even more expensive.


You question using a dairy cross due to them being less meat, but include lowliness that promise to give you less meat? Holstein are big cows, Jersey are small. Holsteins are more commonly available in most areas. There is a lot of meat on a Holstein.
Grass fed or grass finished? Do you have the high quality, ample quantity to grow cattle fast enough on pasture to avoid tough lean meat? Have you eaten grass finished beef? 
Can you put in the effort and trouble in rounding up several reliable folks to buy a portion of one of your steers at butcher time? Where does the hay come from? Where do you buy the grain? Is there a USDA inspected slaughter facility in your area? What are your state&#8217;s laws about selling meat?

Be sure to read the topic about sale barn calves. Most is still relevant even when you buy from a neighbor's barn.
Good luck.


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## WC44 (Apr 6, 2016)

Thanks haypoint. I really do appreciate all the comments. I really want the get into the cattle, but I'm just trying to find the best fit for me. Let me explain my situation a little more. I live on 180 acres. My dad has about 160 of it. My 20 is pasture. For now I have use of my 30 but in the next couple of years I will have more to use. We have above decent pasture. Dad had angus on it a few years back but age and health forced him to sell. He has a guy that cuts hay and leaves dad a % of the bales. We have 3 very good barns on the farm that I have access to. 

If you go the steer route, what's the best time to buy/length to keep/and way to sell? Is it possible to mainly pasture them with small amount of feed?

My costs will mainly be for the cows, feed, and meds. There are a ton of ways to go about getting in the cattle, still trying to decide my best option


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Using anything dairy to build up a beef herd, you have potential to end up with Johne's disease in your herd. If you have cold weather, dairy cattle and dairy cross tend to need a lot of extra feed/housing to keep their body condition. They can also blow their bags from having more milk than a calf can drink. 

I think I would go with old bred cows. We send them to market every year, they would do fine somewhere that someone could barn keep them and give them a little TLC, they would get two or three more calves out of most of them, we sell them at market before they become a management issue. Might be old, might have a partially blown bag, might just raise a crappier calf than our others and hay is a little short that year. You will get some stinkers, but the ones you come out OK on will be winners. With AI you can build whatever you want. Second option would be some weaned feeder heifers. Grow them out, keep the ones you like and sell the ones you don't. They will be pricey, but not as bad as buying purebreds from a breeder. As far as bang for your buck, you can't go wrong with a 3 in one, (bred cow with a calf by her side). You will pay dearly, but when you sell the calf when it hits weaning age, you make some of your money back, and you have another on the way.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Good replies require lots of information. Guy cuts how much hay? 160 acres times three cuttings? What is the percentage of the hay your dad gets? 50%, 10%?
If you buy week old calves, it is best to get them in the Spring after cold weather, just before the pastures green up. But that is the high point in cost too. 
I feed hay 6 months of the year. I still have snow on the ground. Without knowing the climate, soil, rain, etc in your area, I couldn&#8217;t guess how much pasture and how much hay. Your Dad could tell you?
As I said earlier, folks far smarter than you and I have figured all the angles. If there were a way to grow and fatten cattle without much feed, hay balers and combines would be on a barge headed to China.
As with most things, the more effort the more profit possibilities. Apples are $8.00 a bushel, but you can make $50 of apple pie from a bushel. Buy calves in the Spring for $250 @ 100 pounds and after 6 months on pasture sell them for $600 @ 500 pounds, subtract shipping and auction fees. Buy calves in the Spring for $250 @ 100 pounds, summer pasture and in winter feed hay, then pasture again until they get to 1200 pounds, then for 8 weeks feed ground corn, haul to butcher, sell four 25% shares in each steer, pay for kill, cut and wrap and sell each share for $500. You pay for grain, minerals and slaughter costs, but gross $2,000.00 each.


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## WC44 (Apr 6, 2016)

We are in central Arkansas. It's already mid 70s and 80s some. Winters are mild compared to a lot of the country. 1 snow this year. He gets 20% hay. 2 cuttings. I'm starting to like the idea of older bred cows or steers for starters. With steers, is it better to get weaned or bottle steers. What's typical cost difference? I know weaned would be less worry and work than bottles


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Something else you could do, longhorns are always cheap. It's a real pain ever breeding the horns off of them or the crazy colors, but a cheap way to get into the cattle business. They are lean, they have a small niche market, and you will get clobbered at the sale barn, but you would have cows that you could breed up. Some 1/4 or 1/8 longhorns would be some good mamas and you would barely be able to tell it was there on most of their calves.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

I started my herd when I was 12. Calves from a Holstein dairy, he bred his heifers to a Hereford bull. Most looked like Herefords, red white face. I took all he had, I traded for work done. Kept the heifers for my cows, great milkers, bred them to an Angus bull. I had 26 heifers for a little work, all the milk to feed them was from the dairy, from fresh cows before it could go into the milk tank. Kept breeding back Angus....James


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## wannabfishin (Jan 31, 2014)

barnbilder said:


> Something else you could do, longhorns are always cheap. It's a real pain ever breeding the horns off of them or the crazy colors, but a cheap way to get into the cattle business. They are lean, they have a small niche market, and you will get clobbered at the sale barn, but you would have cows that you could breed up. Some 1/4 or 1/8 longhorns would be some good mamas and you would barely be able to tell it was there on most of their calves.


there is a pretty long thread on cattle today about longhorn crosses. they have some pretty nice calves when crossed with charolais. but saying that id just spend all on my money on nice cows and just buy fewer, even just 1 3in1 if thats all i had money for.


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## WC44 (Apr 6, 2016)

What is the best breed of bull for small calves at birth for ease of delivery? Likewise, what breed of heifers is best for ease of birth? That is one reason I have been looking at lowlines


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Look for a low birth weight bull, whatever the breed, for ease of calving. Many oddball breeds such as lowline, dexter, highland fit the ease of calving requirement on the bull side of the coin. Many of these breeds are smaller than the average cow.

Heifers, alot more depends on the individual animal itself and her type and conformation, as compared with other females of the same breed. Look for medium to large examples of your chosen breed with plenty of room for internal organs, good hip structure, well formed udder and sound legs/feet. Cows who have calved before are oftentines a safer bet than a heifer. 
Again, many of the so called oddball breeds have been said to calve easily and without assistance. This goes for the females too.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

WC44, I am going to add my half cent not because I am an experienced cattleman, but because I have had to make this same decision as you. I want a slow paced entrance into cattle which does not become capital intensive. I will not go out and buy 100 head. 

Looking at the options, I came away with using older pairs. Why? It seems to work out the best math ways. 

Last week at one area livestock auction, aged pairs sold at a range of 1000 to 1400. Assuming one could get a decent animal for the avg of 1200, and considering a 500# heifer will cost you $800, that cow cost you $400. Once weaned, that old cow will head to freezer camp to become hamburger. This value makes that calf in the pasture seem really cheap. 

Risk seems moderate. No calving as it is a pair. Worst case you end up with a bottle calf if momma dies. Dead calf is a risk for any age mother. Anyhow, for my math, it came up as aged pairs.


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## WC44 (Apr 6, 2016)

That was one of the things I really liked about the Lowline. Just being new to having my own heard it would be worth it to me to not have as much worry come spring calving season. I have spoken with at least five breeders of low lines and everyone of them tell me that I have spoken with at least five breeders of low lines and everyone of them tell me that they have never had to pull a calf and have not Lost a heifer or cow or calf during birth. 

Maybe get a crossbred heifer or cow and artificially inseminated from a Lowline. Then build your heard up from there? 

The more I look at this the more options there seem to be


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

My current cattle venture happened like this:

Bought some Jersey bull calves, bottle raised, fed out to a year. Butchered 2 for my own freezer, then traded the angus x jersey steer already butchered for a weanling Highland heifer with breeding agreement when she was older. 

Fast forward almost 2 years and the heifer is loose with the bull now. Thinking of purchasing a second heifer this year, or perhaps trade one of my butcher hogs for her. It was affordable as I went but not a cost effective option. Bottle calves are a money pit and a half unless you are already milking a cow or goat. !! Been there, done that, expensive but viable option.


There are many ways to start a herd. And for the record, yes I am very pleased with my oddball breed selection.


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## WC44 (Apr 6, 2016)

Riceguy, that also seems like a good idea. Maybe buy the pairs, sell mothers after weaning, then AI the calves to Lowline when old enough. I'm thinking of only breeding the low lines to the first calf heifers to ease with calving. After that maybe just go for low birth weight Angus


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## WC44 (Apr 6, 2016)

Yes I am definitely deciding that bottlefeeding a calf is not the route I want to go to start my herd. Still not 100% sure which route I do want to take so I would like to hear any other thoughts or suggestions for starting


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Quick question, do you have pasture available for your future cattle? If enough existing, fenced pasture is there already you may be able to exchange a grazing lease for a heifer or couple of calves. It would be an added bonus if you leased any pasture to someone who is already raising your breed of choice.. Just an idea, and you would be able to learn so much about your cattle in a mutually beneficial setting this way, without going all in on cattle blindly.


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## WC44 (Apr 6, 2016)

There is a lot of fenced good pasture, but my dad has that leased out for hay. I only have a small part of the farm to use for the next couple of years.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Many men have spent their lives raising cattle. Most have tried different ways in attempts to turn a profit. Some have made money, some don't. To make it more complex, some of the methods that turned a profit once, won't now and some methods that resulted in losses once, might be profitable today. It really isn't fair to throw out some ideas to you as if there is a little known path to success in cattle. It is risky business. 

Figure out what you can do to use the facilities you have and see what part of cattle you like to do.


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## WC44 (Apr 6, 2016)

ShannonR, how do u market your oddball breed?


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## WC44 (Apr 6, 2016)

Haypoint, I really like seeing what all options I have to get started. I am seeing more options than I originally thought. I truly appreciate all the feedback everyone has given! I may use one or a combo of some I have read here. Still much more research to do


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

WC44 said:


> ShannonR, how do u market your oddball breed?


I have not had to market any Highland cattle, yet, but my tenative plan is to just sell as beef, already processed if I cannot find anyone like minded who likes tiny, shaggy, huge horned cattle. Just in case there is a novelty market, I have been sticking with animals that grow up to be truly minis, cows 750lb or less at maturity. 
This breed likes to eat brush, almost like a goat at times and that was a huge factor in my breed decision at this property. There is a TON of brush for the goats and cattle who are inclined to eat it.

Raising animals for meat is what I do anyway, and I have made a small following of meat consumers here. 
I do get a ton of curiosity and questions from people considering this breed but no serious offers on the heifer or anything. I don't expect any big profits, I do it because I have nearly always been around cattle and I really enjoy them. Life just isn't the same without a cow or three!


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