# Open carry to educate. Good idea or bad idea?



## HoofPick (Jan 16, 2012)

In Oregon it is legal to open carry without a permit and conceal carry with a permit. 
Do you think this was a good way to educate the public or should some other way be used?

http://www.kptv.com/story/20548025/men-armed-with-rifles-walk-through-portland-to-educate


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

yes , but it's a bit like being on stage , you want to be ready for questions with solid answers , constantly aware of what your doing and extremely well studied on the law.

but it is a good thing to educate if you want to 

i recommend http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/forum.php educate your self and Carry On


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

I don't open carry-freaks out the uninformed to see a 1911 cocked and locked...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

zant said:


> I don't open carry-freaks out the uninformed to see a 1911 cocked and locked...



even people who are comfortable with guns , and carry , just can't understand cocked and locked , unless they are a informed 1911 user 

it really is safer 

almost all accidental discharges from a 1911 are when some one tries to lower their hammer 

it was made to be carried cocked and locked


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Not sure you'll get many questions asked. More than likely someone will call 911.
Our fair city passed a city ordinance allowing open carry per the law in Kansas.
The local radio program was hot with phone calls with folks who were scared out of their drawers,, literally.
I have yet to hear of anyone actually openly carrying.
I personally wouldn't have a problem with it,,, if I was with my 2 young boys, and we met on the sidewalk,, I'd see if you had time to talk. If for no other reason than to teach my boys another mans view on the value of gun ownership.
I can teach till hell freezes over,, and they do listen. But sometimes,,, another mans/womans point of view can be the catalyst to harden the best of intentions.


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## bassmaster17327 (Apr 6, 2011)

I have been open carrying everywhere I go or the last seven years. Cops here have been taught about the legality of open carry from a few lawsuites against them for harrassing people that open carry. I have had maybe five negative encounters with people over the last seven years and countless positive. I also believe that there has been atleast one time that me open carrying might have prevented a crime. My girlfriend has been open carrying for the last year


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Open carry has always been legal here not very well practiced for a 100 years in town, it made a resurgence in the the past several years , in part because they were calling the former governor out , the governor had vetoed CC twice and even called in a bunch of favors when it looked like the legislature had a 2/3 majority to over ride his veto. but had in a press conference said if you want to carry a gun do it in the open and patted his hip. I really don't think he thought anyone would.
so they learned the law , better than the police , they recorded themselves all the time with digital recorders so there was no he said she said stuff.
the followed the law to the letter , they got them selves arrested , they knew their rights to a T , and they won their criminal case , then their civil case against the arresting city , cost the cities a bunch of money to not have studied the law themselves. 
finally the AG wrote an opinion and sent it off to the police departments explaining open carry was really legal and they should stop arresting people for it and then charging them with disorderly conduct when they couldn't find any real charge.
when we finally got rid of that governor, the new one signed the first concealed carry bill to cross his desk , added in act 51 making it legal to carry a loaded hand gun in a car without a carry license and or a unloaded long gun without a case.
again a city had to try and test that law , lost in court 
now things are good 
we owe the open carriers a lot 

it is a good thing , just do your home work on your states laws and follow them exactly your under a microscope when you show the world your gun.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Lived in PA my whole life (40 plus years)...about a month ago was the first time that i can recall ever seeing a person open carry that wasn't on their property. It was the hardware store. Didn't bother me (CCW), but messed some people up with fear.
Society in general has been brainwashed that guns are evil.
Interesting what these guys did...would gain more traction if they did a large scale "open carry day" and bring those on the fence out en masse.

Matt


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

zant said:


> I don't open carry-freaks out the uninformed to see a 1911 cocked and locked...


Same here, I keep my 1911 in Condition 1 whenever I carry.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Cabin Fever said:


> Same here, I keep my 1911 in Condition 1 whenever I carry.


If you don't-you might as well carry a plastic pull and play


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## PistolPackinMom (Oct 20, 2012)

I second opencarry.org. Lots of great information to be found there.

My husband and I open carry everywhere we are able to (usually this means when we travel out of state, since SC is not an OC state, except on private property or with permission of the property owner.) and out of three years and multiple encounters, we've only had a few people who looked nervous; most are simply curious and ask us questions. I've talked to (literal) soccer moms with their kids at the park, a breakfast hostess at a hotel, cashiers at subway, customers at Walmart, people at gas stations; all sorts. We carry pamphlets of laws and ordinances for each state and hand them out to anyone who wants to learn more. 

All of these encounters were friendly (or at least civil) and a chance to inform people about their rights and state laws. You'd be surprised at how many people don't know them, and appreciate learning about it.

Plus, my 1911 is too dang pretty to conceal! :rock:


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I'd not consider it to be a good way to inform the public. That is NOT A REASON to carry a gun, and in my eyes irresponsible. Many people don't know the law, and will call 911 instead of ask you about it. In this area, you will be hassled by the cops for open carry even though they know the law... 

Now if you want to carry it for your protection, and don't want to register your name with the state (Concealed Carry) as being a gun owner, then please do open carry.... You carry a gun to protect yourself... not to inform the public... 

Here in VA I see people every now and then open carrying, and I also see a lot of people staring at them, and avoiding them. Me, I give them a thumbs up, and walk on... 

I carry my 1911 in condition 2... Hammer down, safety off. All I have to do is pull the hammer back if I need it... I'm left handed, and only have the safety on the left side. It's not easy to disengage the safety for me.... It's very easy for me to pull the hammer back as I am withdrawing it from the holster.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Used to be hard to carry openly here because the law was so vague. Now that they have revised the wording to include open carry specifically its not a problem Like another poster said, at first there were lawsuits against false arrests. I find myself open carrying much more frequently now and rarely do I see anyone commenting about it...some folks you see are scared but they will soon find out its nothing to worry about.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

zant said:


> If you don't-you might as well carry a plastic pull and play


I always tell people this same thing...but they come back with "it only takes a second to rack the slide back". LMAO


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## PistolPackinMom (Oct 20, 2012)

simi-steading said:


> I'd not consider it to be a good way to inform the public. That is NOT A REASON to carry a gun, and in my eyes irresponsible. Many people don't know the law, and will call 911 instead of ask you about it. In this area, you will be hassled by the cops for open carry even though they know the law...


It is true some cops will harass OC'ers, but I've rarely found that to be the case in VA. It's another good reason to know the law, carry a recorder, and not talk to the cops beyond the extent required by law.



> Now if you want to carry it for your protection, and don't want to register your name with the state (Concealed Carry) as being a gun owner, then please do open carry.... You carry a gun to protect yourself... not to inform the public...


Some do both; it's hardly fair to dictate someone's reasons behind their actions. I know quite a few OC advocates in VA who OC to inform the public of their rights.



> Here in VA I see people every now and then open carrying, and I also see a lot of people staring at them, and avoiding them. Me, I give them a thumbs up, and walk on...


In my experience, I find it rare that people ever really notice. How often would you say you see people actually observe others OC'ing?



> I carry my 1911 in condition 2... Hammer down, safety off. All I have to do is pull the hammer back if I need it... I'm left handed, and only have the safety on the left side. It's not easy to disengage the safety for me.... It's very easy for me to pull the hammer back as I am withdrawing it from the holster.


May I ask why you don't put an ambi-safety on your gun? (Just curious.)


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

simi-steading said:


> I'd not consider it to be a good way to inform the public. That is NOT A REASON to carry a gun, and in my eyes irresponsible. Many people don't know the law, and will call 911 instead of ask you about it. In this area, you will be hassled by the cops for open carry even though they know the law...
> 
> Now if you want to carry it for your protection, and don't want to register your name with the state (Concealed Carry) as being a gun owner, then please do open carry.... You carry a gun to protect yourself... not to inform the public...
> 
> ...


My Springfield Armory 1911 will not safety with hammer down and one in the chamber...this tells me it was designed to be carried condition 1.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

PistolPackinMom said:


> It is true some cops will harass OC'ers, but I've rarely found that to be the case in VA. It's another good reason to know the law, carry a recorder, and not talk to the cops beyond the extent required by law.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thought about it, but because of the design of the 1911, it was designed and meant to carry with the hammer down on a chambered round. Originally it was built without a safety. It was the Army that asked to have it added, and Browning even tried to get them not to add it, and thus the name was changed to Model of 1911... 

The only time you should have the hammer back on a 1911 is when you intend to fire. If I have the hammer back, there is no reason I need a safety, because the gun is about to go off....


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

simi-steading said:


> Thought about it, but because of the design of the 1911, it was designed and meant to carry with the hammer down on a chambered round. Originally it was built without a safety. It was the Army that asked to have it added, and Browning even tried to get them not to add it, and thus the name was changed to Model of 1911...
> 
> The only time you should have the hammer back on a 1911 is when you intend to fire. If I have the hammer back, there is no reason I need a safety, because the gun is about to go off....


Do you run a 70 series or 80 series style slide ?


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Mine is a 70 series... 

I know where you're going with that question too... I have taken the gun, and slammed the hammer against a 2x4 and it will not go off due to the design of the gun. Now if there was a problem in the hammer/trigger group, it would go off... Because of the design, a properly functioning and tuned 70 series will not discharge by hitting the hammer. It will also not go off if you slip off the hammer while cocking.. 

John Browning knew what he was doing when he made the original design. It is a very safe gun so long as it is functioning properly, and if you haven't over stoned or filed anything in the trigger group and all tolerances are within spec.

It will however go off if you are trying to drop the hammer by holding the rear safety, pulling the trigger, and lowering the hammer with your thumb and let go of the hammer too fast...

Also, the myth of the half cock being there to keep the hammer from resting on the firing pin while carrying is incorrect. The half cock is what keeps the gun from discharging if you are coking it and you slip off the hammer. It keeps the hammer from dropping onto the firing pin.

If you drop a 70 series barrel down that MAY be the only way you'd get it to go off, so long as the inertia can overtake the firing pin spring and allow the pin to travel forward far enough and fast enough to touch off the primer.. For that to happen will be one fluke of physics, or you have a bad spring. Not only that, a good chance if you do that, it would partially push back the slide, which would also prevent it from firing. It would take one heck of a direct hard hit to the barrel to discharge it.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

It is great that people want to educate the public thru open carry , I thank everyone who does 

but as my kids say , dad your way scary enough already , your like some ZZ top , ******* lumber jack , who just walked out of the hills.


so maybe I will join some of you someday for a open carry picnic , it will be a reason to wear my good holster and belt


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

wannabechef said:


> My Springfield Armory 1911 will not safety with hammer down and one in the chamber...this tells me it was designed to be carried condition 1.


That tells me the Army didn't trust John's design and asked to have the safety added. He designed the gun to be carried with a round chambered and the hammer down.

I do not believe in carrying any handgun with the hammer back. It only takes a split second to pull the hammer back yourself... No longer than it takes to fumble with a safety.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Here's some info to back up what I am saying... I've done a lot of research on the 1911 because it is by far my favorite gun, and I know my history on it fairly well.. 

These pistols, and the M1911 were designed to be carried in &#8220;Condition two&#8221;, that is a round in the chamber with the hammer down. The thumb lock safety was to be engaged to make the pistol safe when the user&#8217;s other hand was occupied. The manual of arms from 1913 clearly shows that the hammer was to be lowered (using two hands) when the M1911 was holstered. 

Army 1913 Small Arms Manual: 


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Misc/SmallArmsManual1913Coverpage.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Misc/SmallArmsManualpgs90-91.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Misc/SmallArmsManualpgs92-93.jpg

If you cannot read the text on the bottom of pgs 91 and 92:

Pg 91. If the pistol is to be kept in the and and not to be fired at once, engage the safety lock with the thumb of the right hand. If the pistol is to be carried in the holster, remove safety lock, if on, and lower the hammer fully down.

Pg 92. (Caution) The pistol must never be placed in the holster until hammer is fully down.

Italics are in the original. 

So why did the Army change the regulations?:Hatcher&#8217;s Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers, page 95, provides the clue:

&#8220;It is the danger of accidental discharge when thus lowering the hammer with one hand while on horseback that caused the Army to change the regulations some years ago so as to require the automatic to be carried with the hammer cocked and the safety on. 


http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-502877.html


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

In Condition 1, there are three "safeties" that keep the gun from firing accidently. 

1. The thumb safety,
2. The grip safety, and
3. The "no finger" on the trigger safety.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

simi-steading said:


> Mine is a 70 series...
> 
> I know where you're going with that question too... I have taken the gun, and slammed the hammer against a 2x4 and it will not go off due to the design of the gun. Now if there was a problem in the hammer/trigger group, it would go off... Because of the design, a properly functioning and tuned 70 series will not discharge by hitting the hammer. It will also not go off if you slip off the hammer while cocking..
> 
> ...


I have never dropped tested one , but the series 80 is supposed to pass the drop test was my understanding.

but i prefer the 70s

the primary concern is lowering the hammer on a live round , and as long as it is done in your own home in a safe direction , it is fine 

the concern here was when we had to unload every time we got in a car , then load up when we got out , and many were open carrying and loading and unloading 10 times a day , that one dropped hammer in a parking lot would set back the movement years.

also stressing the need for a proper holster and drop resistant guns we had a cop drop his off duty revolver in a mall , he is fixing their floor , publicly shamed and on desk duty for a long time


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## PistolPackinMom (Oct 20, 2012)

And, as with any gun, there is the safety between your ears. Some choose to engage it and others don't...


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

You have no idea how many people I've watched drop the hammer on a 1911 with one hand... Stupidest thing you can do.... ALWAYS do it with two hands.. .Matter a fact, I've made an adjustment to mine that will not allow me to drop the hammer with one hand. If you try, it will relock the hammer. You have to use two hands to drop the hammer on mine.

I've never used a single hand to lower the hammer on a chambered round. That's just asking for trouble no matter how uncool looking using two hands is.. 

I sure didn't mean to get off track with this about what condition the 1911 was meant to be carried in, but then again, talking about open carry for education is a good way to educate about what ever I guess.. 

I just don't believe in walking around with a gun to educate people, or get their attention. I only agree with it because of protection, and not wanting to jump through the hoops and registering with your state so every time you get stopped they want to see your concealed gun... (yes, they will take and hold it during the stop in this area if you have a CC)


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

wannabechef said:


> I always tell people this same thing...but they come back with "it only takes a second to rack the slide back". LMAO


Yeah,I always get a kick out of that attitude-99% of the time the speaker has never had to use a firearm for deadly purpose.....when something goes down and YOU are'nt the one initiating the contact-you're already 2 secs behind the curve-so if it only takes you "1 sec to rack slide",that puts you 3 secs behind or 10rds-bye,bye.....1911s are carried cocked and locked or you're just lying to yourself-which I have no problem with....I try not to


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

zant said:


> Yeah,I always get a kick out of that attitude-99% of the time the speaker has never had to use a firearm for deadly purpose.....when something goes down and YOU are'nt the one initiating the contact-you're already 2 secs behind the curve-so if it only takes you "1 sec to rack slide",that puts you 3 secs behind or 10rds-bye,bye.....1911s are carried cocked and locked or you're just lying to yourself-which I have no problem with....I try not to


I skip safeties all together and carry a Glock with one in the pipe! I have an advantage over you 1911 carriers...looks to me like I have a few second lead over ya!

I've had to pull a gun on someone before..the last thing I wanted to screw with is pulling a hammer back, chambering a round or trying to remember if the gun I carried today has a safety. To fix this problem, the two guns I carry don't have safeties. My 1911 stays in the safe (too dang heavy anyway).


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## Lilith (Dec 29, 2012)

I myself have a Utah concealed weapons permit. This means I can carry in 30+ states or something crazy like that under my jacket where nobody can see it. The thing is, I find that i struggle with drawing the weapon from under another piece of clothing, so I prefer to carry openly. It has little to do with educating people, but the area that I live in it has never been uncommon for 1/2 the country folk in town to be packin. And, if it aint strapped to their hip or shoulder, you better believe that they have one behind the seat! So, outside the rookie who moves into town for the work, the cops are well educated and time tested on the gun laws. 

My ex (who I wouldn't put a bullet in if a pack of wolves were eating him alive - death is to good for what he has done) arrived an hour early to pick up our daughter for his annual visitation. Seeing how I had just come in from checking my father in laws horses out on the desert range, I had my pistol strapped on - in plain view. His first reaction was to go strait to the sheriff and try to complain blowing things way out of proportion! The sheriff kindly informed him where to stick it, bringing it up the next time he saw me uptown. 

So, do I think that open carry makes a difference in law enforcement education? YES, Yes, and yes.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Cabin Fever said:


> In Condition 1, there are three "safeties" that keep the gun from firing accidently.
> 
> 1. The thumb safety,
> 2. The grip safety, and
> 3. The "no finger" on the trigger safety.


I agree.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

bassmaster17327 said:


> I have been open carrying everywhere I go or the last seven years. Cops here have been taught about the legality of open carry from a few lawsuites against them for harrassing people that open carry. I have had maybe five negative encounters with people over the last seven years and countless positive. I also believe that there has been atleast one time that me open carrying might have prevented a crime. My girlfriend has been open carrying for the last year


I only open carry on Fridays, and also on Fridays I wear something with red in support of our troops. I have been doing this for years, so the folks who see me on a regular basis have become used to it.. Yes in the beginning there were lots of questions and opinions about me "open carrying".. Now I can't recall the last time anyone asked... 

Some days I'm carrying my Llama (1911 clone) or my Ruger P89 9mm, today it is the Ruger.. 

Friday - carry openly, Sat - Thur carried concealed.. Although every once in a while I'll run into an officer who wants to make it a big deal.. But that's normally in York, which I don't go to much..


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## LaBella (Jan 9, 2013)

I'm new to this whole thing, so forgive me if I have the facts wrong. I know recently (relatively) a guy in Philly was harassed and arrested by the police, who drew down on him for open carry.
It turns out that all you need is a license to carry a gun to open carry in PA, if I recall correctly. You do need a permit to CC, though.
This was not too long ago, but sadly, my brain has been saturated with land buying and homesteading plans and the daily nonsense I spend my time on to accurately recall. I only vaguely remember because I am from PA, and I had been YouTubing right before I read it, a lot of vids of people OC mostly in NH (I think) and them dealing with the police (Free Keene I think??).
So when I ran across the tale of the guy in Philly open carrying, it kind of stuck in my head, and I wondered if (when) I get my gun(s) if I would have the conjones to OC in an area where OC isn't common and the police aren't well versed in the law.

Do I think it's a good idea? Well, I like the idea. Criminals aren't going to open carry, because they know they don't have the gun legally, and I do believe the police can ask you for your gun permit. Criminals are also not going to target someone that's packing. But I'm on the fence as to it being a good idea.
Having this conversation with a Canadian friend of mine, I pointed out that statistics in "gun states" show that gun crimes are lower, and the reason being is you never know who and how many other people are carrying guns.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

LaBella said:


> I'm new to this whole thing, so forgive me if I have the facts wrong. I know recently (relatively) a guy in Philly was harassed and arrested by the police, who drew down on him for open carry.
> It turns out that all you need is a license to carry a gun to open carry in PA, if I recall correctly. You do need a permit to CC, though.
> This was not too long ago, but sadly, my brain has been saturated with land buying and homesteading plans and the daily nonsense I spend my time on to accurately recall. I only vaguely remember because I am from PA, and I had been YouTubing right before I read it, a lot of vids of people OC mostly in NH (I think) and them dealing with the police (Free Keene I think??).
> So when I ran across the tale of the guy in Philly open carrying, it kind of stuck in my head, and I wondered if (when) I get my gun(s) if I would have the conjones to OC in an area where OC isn't common and the police aren't well versed in the law.
> ...



You only need a LTCF (License To Carry a Firearm)(that is the proper name in PA) in PA to carry concealed and to carry openly or concealed in a Class 1 city of which Philadelphia is a Class 1 city.. I dont' know if other cities in PA are considered Class 1.. But there is no other laws about open carry in PA.. 

Except if you open carry, and don't have a LTCF don't get into your car with it loaded, that is illegal. You have to have a LTCF to carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle.. Plus there are other such things..


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

I open carry every day in warm weather and conceal in the winter. Most people dont seem to notice. The ex- Chief of Police didnt like it. I wish her well on her new job in Oregon !


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## LaBella (Jan 9, 2013)

beowoulf90 said:


> You only need a LTCF (License To Carry a Firearm)(that is the proper name in PA) in PA to carry concealed and to carry openly or concealed in a Class 1 city of which Philadelphia is a Class 1 city.. I dont' know if other cities in PA are considered Class 1.. But there is no other laws about open carry in PA..
> 
> Except if you open carry, and don't have a LTCF don't get into your car with it loaded, that is illegal. You have to have a LTCF to carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle.. Plus there are other such things..


Thank you for that. 
I plan on waiting until I am out of state before starting my gun collection, but it is useful information to have.
I did look the story up to refresh my memory, and this is what I found..
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/21/altercation-philadelphia-police-say-wont-look-way-open-carry-gun-owners/

This is the part I was thinking of.
"Yes, you can, if you have a license to carry firearms," Fiorino responds."It's Directive 137. It's your own internal directive."

There is also this story
http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/news-and-opinion/Open-Carry-Experiment-Shows-Cops-Dont-Know-Their-Own-Gun-Laws-121989564.html

This story has this statement
"Add to all that the convoluted wording of the state law, which essentially makes open carry de-facto legal: âNo person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless1) such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or (2) such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106 of this title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license)."

I suppose because of other things on my mind, there didn't seem to be a distinction between a gun permit and a carry permit making me confuse myself, so again, thank you.

I hate to seem like a sheeple. I do like the idea of open carry, but knowing the negative attention it can bring from law enforcement, it makes me leary.
At least it does in areas where open carry isn't commonly accepted and pretty much ignored by LEO.
My hat off to those with the fight in them to exercise their rights. :rock:


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

LaBella said:


> Thank you for that.
> I plan on waiting until I am out of state before starting my gun collection, but it is useful information to have.
> I did look the story up to refresh my memory, and this is what I found..
> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/21/altercation-philadelphia-police-say-wont-look-way-open-carry-gun-owners/
> ...


Also if you need more information click on the link PAFOA link in my signature line. It will take you to Pennsylvania Firearms Owners Association. They have links and some of the laws posted and there is a forum etc.. It's a wealth of information..

I do know that PA LTCF is accepted in OK.. The Daughter and SIL just moved there and their PA LTCF's were/are honored..


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