# Icelandic sheep for part time farmer?



## cbcansurvive (Jan 29, 2009)

We are looking to raise sheep partially for profit and partially for a hobby. Unfortunately we don't have the money jump into farming full time, but hope to someday. For right now we are looking for sheep that we can maintain while keeping our day jobs. I am familiar with what sheep need in terms of grazing land, fencing, shelter, etc...but my main concern is can they be left alone for 6-8 hours a day? I live in Northwestern New Jersey and we intend to eventually locate our homestead either here or in Northeastern Pennsylvania. Potential predators are primarily black bears and coyotes. Given that, is it feasible to leave them unattended for that long? If it is, what would the care/feeding schedule be like? I understand that Icelandic sheep will eat mostly grass and will not eat much grain. Would we give them a small amount of grain in the morning and then let them graze the remainder of the day? What about when the ground is snow covered? How about water? Would it be ok to simply put a large stock tank in the pasture? What am I missing?


----------



## Bramble (Dec 11, 2008)

in the snow they eat grass hay. i once read that this breed back in the day, in iceland, the shepherds would basically just let them out in the pasture in winter, come back in spring and whatever was still alive was what they bred lol not sure if its true but if it is i imagine they're pretty hardy. 
for water you'll want to be wary of it freezing in the winter.


----------



## cbcansurvive (Jan 29, 2009)

Bramble said:


> in the snow they eat grass hay. i once read that this breed back in the day, in iceland, the shepherds would basically just let them out in the pasture in winter, come back in spring and whatever was still alive was what they bred lol not sure if its true but if it is i imagine they're pretty hardy. for water you'll want to be wary of it freezing in the winter.


The water issue is simple enough to address as I'd get a good tank heater to keep it ice free. I'm just trying to make sure that we can make this work despite being away from home for a good portion of the day. I should add that my wife gets home in the mid-afternoon as she is a teacher and could tend to some of the chores which I'm sure will help.


----------



## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

We have Icelandics, and we aren't always home. It's nice to have someone home during lambing season, you can help with the problems if you can see 'em early. If you can't be there all the time, get a LGD, they'll keep the predators away and you will sleep much easier.

We feed no grain at all - Icelandics don't do well with it, a bit of alfalfa pellets in a bucket keeps them tame and happy.

Don't forget you'll need a shearer (or you can do it yourself, I do), a vet, and the willingness to spend your weekends and vacation doing fences, gates, and all the other work that would be done by a farmer during the day.


----------



## cbcansurvive (Jan 29, 2009)

frazzlehead said:


> We have Icelandics, and we aren't always home. It's nice to have someone home during lambing season, you can help with the problems if you can see 'em early. If you can't be there all the time, get a LGD, they'll keep the predators away and you will sleep much easier.


Two questions-first when is lambing season? Second, what is an LGD (I'm assuming this refers to some type of dog?)



frazzlehead said:


> Don't forget you'll need a shearer (or you can do it yourself, I do), a vet, and the willingness to spend your weekends and vacation doing fences, gates, and all the other work that would be done by a farmer during the day.


I read that Icelandics shed their wool making for easier shearing-is that true? How do you market your wool? As far as weekends and vacation doing farm work that's my kind of vacation :goodjob:


----------



## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

Bramble said:


> in the snow they eat grass hay. i once read that this breed back in the day, in iceland, the shepherds would basically just let them out in the pasture in winter, come back in spring and whatever was still alive was what they bred lol not sure if its true but if it is i imagine they're pretty hardy.
> for water you'll want to be wary of it freezing in the winter.




In Spring they're turned out - always have been. In winter however, historically, each ewe used to get the equiv of about two bales to get through.

They will roo (shed) but you have to really watch to catch it. I have a ram who has never been shorn - just rooed. It's great for hand spinners.

DIY shearing is easy peasy - Frazzle and I both do it.

Mine have days when they're on their own for 12 hours. It's rare but they do. We use good rubber tubs for water, float heaters in the winter (although I think DH is building a solar heater for next winter) and they're easy keepers.

check out isbona.com

They only cycle in the fall/winter so lambs are generally in spring.

LGD=livestock guardian dog. I have a pyr in with mine. 

I ditto Frazzle on no grain - they don't do well with it and don't need it. Mine love a handful of bunny pellet (not the ones that come out, the ones that go in <g>) for a treat.

Easy lambers, easy to handle and great personalities.

I doubt I'd have a different breed.


----------



## catahoula (Dec 14, 2005)

I'll third the "no grain", they make milk and fatten up on grass, just fine. When we first started out I would feed grain once a day, we ended up with lambs that were more fat than meat.

Icelandics are tough little sheep, think Viking battle sheep. They aren't the type to get their head stuck in a fence and flop over dead. On the flip side this toughness requires a different method of sheep handling. Easier than pigs mind you, but more difficult than some of the tamer breeds.

Happy fencing.


----------



## cbcansurvive (Jan 29, 2009)

Thanks for all of the replies-a question about sheep guard dogs. What types of dogs are best suited for this purpose? Do these animals typically live alongside the sheep 24/7 as "working animals" or are they half working animal half pet?


----------



## MorrisonCorner (Jul 27, 2004)

Weighing in here as a long time Icelandic shepherd...

I do not use dogs with my Icelandics. If you are buying Icelandics from a New England flock chances are you are buying lines from one of three powerhouse farms up here. One of the characteristics Barbara bred for was the ability of an ewe to defend her lambs from foxes. If a ewe lamb lost a lamb to a fox she was allowed to breed again. If she lost another one, or an adult ewe lost a lamb, she was immediately culled. The net effect of this kind of breeding, over generations, is a pretty bombproof mother. I've had coyotes come in at my sheep... new lambs on the ground... and the flock's reaction was to bunch up, like musk oxen, and face the threat as a unit with the lambs behind. To the predator the flock is one, large, mass, and difficult to attack. If the flock breaks and runs, that triggers the prey drive, and individual animals are easy to pick off. So far (knock wood) I've had coyotes at least twice a year and so far my flock has not broken. I should say that I also use electric mesh fencing, but electric mesh vs. motivated coyote? No contest... the coyote is going through.

I love the description "easier than pigs." Are ya sure??? Be forewarned that Icelandics have minds of their own, and what they want to do, and what you want to do, are often at odds. This is a "pull" breed, not a "push" breed and I've been told that experienced sheep dog owners will not put one of their dogs in with Icelandics because the breed will ruin the dog. I've seen one of my ewes clobber a domestic dog that got into the pen and I presume just wanted to play with her and the lamb. She was not amused. And her reaction was to stomp her feet at him a few times, then lower her head and do a short feinting charge. When the dog didn't back up she went airborne. You'll know it when you see it. The airborne Icelandic charge means she is going to hurt whatever she hits. Pull breed. You train them to come running to the sound of rattling grain. Last year I made a game out of it by making "it's an emergency... you must get the sheep in NOW... what do you do?" part of the contest. The girls got a pan of grain, rattled furiously, got out of the way when the flock came roaring in... collected the next clue, and were off. Total elapsed time.. maybe 90 seconds. If they'd tried to round them up by running after them? They'd still be out there 3 months later. And the sheep would be laughing at them.

Hay became a real problem here in VT this fall and several farms have launched into an experiment with graining these sheep. I agree with the above posters that under optimal conditions my sheep will do a bale a week for feed and bedding. However, finding that bale a week was an issue, and the cost pushed trying a different system into the realm of cost effective. This winter I am feeding 1/2 hay and 1/2 a "grain blend" of compressed alfalfa pellets, hay extender, and alfalfa cubes. The acid test will be health lambs on the ground this spring.

Profitability... I used to have a whole website devoted to the business of farming which I should put back up again, but if someone hasn't broken the news to you, let me be the first: if you keep good records, if you keep track of your expenses, if you allocate expenses accurately... you will not make money on Icelandic sheep unless you are able to sell prime breeding stock at premium prices.

Period.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is either not running their numbers accurately or managing their flock much more efficiently and tightly than you, in your first years, will be able to do.. and you may never master it. An Icelandic lamb carcass comes in around 20 pounds of useable meat. Having that lamb slaughtered at a professional facility (with USDA inspection) runs $75 here in VT... so right there, the overhead on that whole lamb, all cuts, is $3.75. If I can get $150 for that meat I'm "making" $75 on a lamb.. $150 on a set of twins.. or 30 bales of hay at $5/bale. Basically the lambs are covering the cost of keeping the ewe if absolutely positively nothing goes wrong.

Or you don't need fencing. I, however, have found fencing to be a wicked handy thing to have.

There are some very good guides to keeping Icelandic sheep at http://www.frelsifarm.com and http://www.woolandfeathers.com I love... love love love... my Icelandics. They are bombproof. They lamb in the wee hours of the morning and present me with little surprises before my first cup of coffee.. very civilized. They're quite tasty, if you get right down to it. But they are not, at the end of the year, profitable.

Eh.. who cares. They knit up into a grand mitten!


----------



## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

cbcansurvive said:


> Thanks for all of the replies-a question about sheep guard dogs. What types of dogs are best suited for this purpose? Do these animals typically live alongside the sheep 24/7 as "working animals" or are they half working animal half pet?


First let me second this:
"think Viking battle sheep"

It made me laugh because it's so true. There's no end of joy and no end of effort that comes from it. I love my Icelandics and theyre easy keepers but they certainly come with challenges. 

One thing to consider is your location. I didn't see it on your heading thingy. If you're not somewhere conducive to keeping cold hardy animals you will likely have problems.


----------



## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

MorrisonCorner said:


> Weighing in here as a long time Icelandic shepherd...
> 
> I do not use dogs with my Icelandics.


This would depend on where you are. I know people further West of me they don't have dogs in with the sheep. Here, I doubt I would have a flock between coyote packs, bears, cougars etc. I would not however, say it's a must, unless your location required it. 

An ewe who can defend against a fox is not to be sneezed at, however one fox vs. coyote/dog pack... as you know all too well, a very different thing.

I have also had my flock flock -which surprised me. The first time it happened my pyr actually rounded them up and moved to them to safety. I still shake my head at it as apparently they didn't know they weren't supposed to do that and she (the pyr) didn't know she wasn't supposed to do that.

We use farm fence with electric and dogs - one in with them and one out.

"Be forewarned that Icelandics have minds of their own, and what they want to do, and what you want to do, are often at odds."

Again - laughing. I have a wether across the yard in a new pen who is convinced I've made a mistake and he *needs* to be somewhere else. I just got him off the roof of the house. Apparently someone forgot to tell him he's not a goat. He's looking for a way out and quite sure there is one and I'm at home today to settle him in there because if he's determined enough, he may end up being right.

I have found that with electronet. No matter how hot the charge and how recently the shearing - if they're sure you've made a mistake, they'll be out and finding a new place to graze.

"This is a "pull" breed, not a "push" breed and I've been told that experienced sheep dog owners will not put one of their dogs in with Icelandics because the breed will ruin the dog."

Well, I'm not working my ES with them because there's no use to it. If they don't want to do, no matter how much he may try, they won't. Unless there's just one - in which case I take the horns and he moves from the end. So, he does work them but it's nothing that would make any sense to anyone who really trains stock dogs.

"You train them to come running to the sound of rattling grain." Alfalfa pellets work like a charm and don't have the nasty side effects of grain. I just saw that other part of your post.

"If they'd tried to round them up by running after them? They'd still be out there 3 months later. And the sheep would be laughing at them." LOL in full agreement.

"This winter I am feeding 1/2 hay and 1/2 a "grain blend" of compressed alfalfa pellets, hay extender, and alfalfa cubes. The acid test will be health lambs on the ground this spring." I'll be curious about how this goes as we're having hay problems here. My hay was lower quality and at least one of my ewes looks to be open. Her condition is good but I wonder if there's a link.

"Profitability... I used to have a whole website devoted to the business of farming which I should put back up again" It was a very useful site and I would second it going back up.

"you will not make money on Icelandic sheep unless you are able to sell prime breeding stock at premium prices." I do agree - you have to just enjoy it and chalk it up to an expensive hobby with some great fringe benefits.

This was a great post and hopefully it will give you - the OP - something to think about. 

Sorry - just saw NW NJ. I would consider a trained LGD - but get one used to sheep. Alternately, look at llamas - also ones who are guard llamas, not cast offs.

I would also keep in mind, in case you don't already know this - plan for building etc. on weekends but know that no fence breaks, no sheep gets stuck no emergency happens on the weekend. It is always- ime -in the worst weather in the middle of the night before work. Or as you're heading out the door.

Some of the other questions that haven't been answered yet (I think):

Given that, is it feasible to leave them unattended for that long? 

-yes 6-8 hours is fine. I feed before work and after. They don't like to eat after dark so I try to keep to daylight hours so they can cud at night.

-I feed no grain but am curious about the people who are looking for ways to stretch their hay.

-Water is a pain when the world is frozen but not snowy. At this time of year, when there's an abundance of snow, I have to change the water because they prefer the snow. I always have water available though. 

I think that's it. Let us know if there's more questions.


----------



## cbcansurvive (Jan 29, 2009)

flannelberry said:


> First let me second this:
> "think Viking battle sheep"
> 
> It made me laugh because it's so true. There's no end of joy and no end of effort that comes from it. I love my Icelandics and theyre easy keepers but they certainly come with challenges.
> ...


Thanks a lot for the replies-I'm learning more than I ever thought I would. We live in the Northwestern New Jersey highlands. We don't quite have New England weather, but from December to February single digit temps (and slightly below zero overnights) are not at all uncommon. Conversely, 95 degrees and 90% humidity in August is just as common. I do see a fair amount of small homesteads/farms with sheep in our area-not too sure what kind though.


----------



## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

I am not sure about the humidity for them - I know I wouldn't like it <g>. Check on the ISBONA list if there's anyone in your area - or a similar climate.

Also in Beth Abbott's book:

"In earlier times, before modern haying practices, the sheep were put out for winter."

This is where you learn about Leadersheep and their importance. They guided the flock home through blizzards - or refused to let the flock go out if they knew bad weather threatened.


----------



## cbcansurvive (Jan 29, 2009)

flannelberry said:


> I am not sure about the humidity for them - I know I wouldn't like it <g>. Check on the ISBONA list if there's anyone in your area - or a similar climate.


Thanks for the tip about ISBONA-I just went to the site and found that the only breeder in New Jersey is 15 minutes from my house! I'll be e-mailing her soon.


----------



## lisarichards (Dec 6, 2004)

We used to leave our Icelandic sheep from about 8 in the morning to 6ish at night, for over two years. We had no choice. We kept two guard llamas with them, and still lost animals to coyotes here in NH.

Now I'm home with them all day and I keep my Percheron horses and cow either in the same pastures as the sheep or very close, and big pigs on the other side. No more coyote losses.

We started with just a few Icelandic sheep as a hobby, and now have almost a real diversified farm. We blame the sheep for the slippery slope, so beware!

Lisa
Mack Hill Farm


----------



## MorrisonCorner (Jul 27, 2004)

FYI... last winter/spring a number of Icelandic farms in New England had bad lambing seasons. These were farms that had never experienced issues before, and suddenly found themselves losing ewes, with difficult births, losing lambs.. BAD season. And at the same time there were farms like mine that sailed through that should not, by all rights, have cruised through the season (I breed ewe lambs.. and these things are still TINY come spring).

After exchanging notes we discovered that those of us who had "easy" or "normal" springs had one thing in common: we did not have barns. Last winter we had a LOT of snow. Farms with real barns brought their ewes inside to protect them from the weather. Very sensible. But those of us who didn't have barns didn't have that option. So the sheep were left out to fight their way through the conditions.

After looking it over, based on the admittedly unscientific evidence we've concluded that the sheep forced to keep moving had two advantages: the lambs seem to have turned and dropped into the proper position, and they seem to have been a few points ahead for the exercise they got struggling to get to their feed.

One of the rare times I'm glad i can't afford to build a barn... And again this winter my ewes are out there struggling through very deep snow. In a couple of months they'll be waddling through. But hopefully those lambs will be rocked, rattled, and rolled, into the proper position for an easy birth.


----------



## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

That's an interesting proposition, MorrisonCorner! I can see how that would work, having been a pregnant human - walking is the best thing before labour and delivery!

We have a very small barn with room for the dairy cow, and two stalls for sheep who might need to be penned. We have some Columbia/Hampshires and they tend to need more 'babying' if it is really cold ... their lambs just don't seem to hit the ground running the same as the Icelandics do, and they turn into popsicles so much more easily, especially as they're not so strongly seasonal and may lamb earlier. Another reason I love the Icelandics - we have a mix here, because we are still working out our breeding strategy, but we are getting a purebred Icelandic ram and moving more in that direction, they're ideally suited for our climate and management style.

You asked how we market the wool: I just sold out of wool from last year (okay, I have all of 10 ewes, and I didn't take fleece from all the lambs and I did keep some back for myself, but still I'm excited about this) .... just from the listings on my website and from our listings at EatWild and LocalHarvest. Handspinners buy from me over the web, and a couple of local spinners bought from me as well (the one lady's husband said "oh man, they deliver it right to the HOUSE now??? hee hee). 

As for the rooing, with more than a few sheep (and you always need at least a few), I wouldn't want to harvest it all by hand - they shed over several weeks and look like they've got mange while they're doing it. :S Plus, unless you were really careful and conscientious, lots of the wool would be lost to the straw or hay or fences and be mucky and not good for spinning. Shearing's not so bad, if you have a headgate and a decent set of shears (or scissors).

You might want to check out a book called "Small Scale Livestock Farming" (Carol Ekarius, I think is the author). It has good information about how to examine your various farm ventures for profitability and objectively examine the numbers for cost, revenue and profit. Not specifically about sheep, but a great book especially for those of us who farm part-time in the hopes of switching over sometime in the future.


----------



## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

lisarichards said:


> We used to leave our Icelandic sheep from about 8 in the morning to 6ish at night, for over two years. We had no choice. We kept two guard llamas with them, and still lost animals to coyotes here in NH.


That's good to know Lisa. We're moving across the road in the next year or so - totally out of sight of the house - and are planning on llamas as guardians. The good thing is that the ES, who is the house dog, is very aware of what goes on over there but maybe that won't be enough. We have coyotes who are quite convinced that meadow is part of their territory. It hasn't been a problem for the horses but there won't be horses in there with the sheep.


----------



## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

MorrisonCorner said:


> One of the rare times I'm glad i can't afford to build a barn... And again this winter my ewes are out there struggling through very deep snow. In a couple of months they'll be waddling through. But hopefully those lambs will be rocked, rattled, and rolled, into the proper position for an easy birth.


That is exactly what people who "know" (knew) told me when I was first getting my sheep. I had lots of conversations with Liz Harker and Stefania in particular about barns and they both said - if you don't have one, don't build one. They felt no barn was better for the overall health of the animal. Now, there are times when I wish I'd ignored that advice - like when I'm out there in -20 but if they're healthier... it's a good thing. It's also supposed to grow better fleeces as well. I don't have anything to compare that with though.


----------



## Turkeyfether (Dec 10, 2004)

I have 2 Cheviots & 2 Nubian wethers.We keep them with the horses in the pasture & they all have free access in & out of the bottom level of the bank barn.It has 2 large stalls & the outer area is L-shaped.The sheep & goats go where the horses go.I hear keeping farm animals , chickens & turkeys near horses is a deterrent to predators & it has worked for us. Whenever I hear coyotes in the area I put my sheep & goats in the inner barn. Also in bad weather. Why don't you start with a couple of sheep & build upon it if it :lonergr:works for you?


----------

