# Hackamore or Bosal Question???



## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

Hi everybody! I've been riding my 17 yr old Arabian gelding around on my property. I tried several bits in his mouth. He fights the bit real bad. The farrier came over and looked in his mouth, and told me he still has his wolf teeth. She said that's probably the problem. So, I tried a bitless bridle that I had in the tack room. He's no problem with it. The farrier said then to use a hackamore, or bosal.
I've read a lot on the mechanical Hacks and some of them can hurt a horse if used wrong. He's real easy to the touch of left or right pull, so I won't be tugging on it.
Anyone use either, and have a good preference that would help me decide what to get?
There's 10 million of them on the websites. I'm getting tired of buying and trying.
Thanks for your help and advice.
TerryR


----------



## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I would get a bosal, not a mechanical hackamore.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Why can't you just use the bitless bridle?

I wouldn't use a bosal unless you are experienced with them, you can skin a horse up very easily. A mechanical hack with shorter shanks isn't overly severe unless you have heavy hands. Well, any bit is severe with heavy hands...


----------



## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

I might just go with a simple snaffle. A hackamore is a good option if you remember the mechanism it works by and don't jerk his head off. Sometimes a well fitted broken bit can be pretty comfortable too. Even with wolf teeth.


----------



## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

Ya know I was thinking the same way just using the bitless bridle.
I was just under the impression that the bitless bridle was just a training tool. Then you progress to the Bosal or Hackamore. 
I'm learning here to see what other members are using.
I've never used a Bosal. I have ridden with a mechanical hackamore, and the girl trying to sell me her horse never told me that it could be very harsh and can break a nose.
I've been reading since I posted, WOW! And getting harder to decide what to use.

QUOTE=Irish Pixie;7162399]Why can't you just use the bitless bridle?

I wouldn't use a bosal unless you are experienced with them, you can skin a horse up very easily. A mechanical hack with shorter shanks isn't overly severe unless you have heavy hands. Well, any bit is severe with heavy hands...[/QUOTE]


----------



## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

I once had a little made I rode with a piece of leather in her mouth. Worked for us. Remember anything used on a face can be cruel if misused. Or not if used correctly.


----------



## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

It's very backwards to train a horse to bitless and then shove a bit into their mouth. Clearly, they are smart enough to STAY with the bitless one. There is no need for bits except for certain shows. 
http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.co...ckamores-full-and-detailed-photos-463816.html


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I'm sure that breaking a nose bone _can_ happen with a hackamore but it's just not something that happens with normal riding. 

At 17, and if you aren't going to show, use the bitless bridle. If you want to use a mechanical hack this type is fairly mild with decent hands:










Make sure the nose band of the hack is wide and flat, and you shouldn't have a problem. 

Finished horses are broke to a bit, and all dressage and hunters must be shown in an approved bit, but if you're trail riding anything goes.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

secuono said:


> It's very backwards to train a horse to bitless and then shove a bit into their mouth. Clearly, they are smart enough to STAY with the bitless one. There is no need for bits except for certain shows.
> http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.co...ckamores-full-and-detailed-photos-463816.html


I don't understand what you're saying. Could you explain, please?


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Holy macaroni, Batman! I have a show engraved Sliester leather nose band Arab sized hackamore in excellent condition, I priced them on e bay and thought I was going to have a heart attack. It's on an excellent harness leather Murphy head stall and Tory plaited roping reins too. 

I'm so glad most of my tack is 20+ years old and I bought quality. 

Good Lord. I just priced a Sliester broken mouth curb my youngest used when she rode western. I should dig around in the various tack boxes and get rich.


----------



## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

Why don't you just have the Horse Dentist or Vet out to remove the wolf teeth? If this older horse still has wolf teeth, he probably NEEDS to have some mouth work done anyway. Could have points or badly worn teeth that don't match the opposite teeth. Might have an overgrown molar up in a space where another tooth got knocked out.

We purchased some older horses, not in their teens, but both had good sized wolf teeth that had to come out. It wasn't that hard, horses cooperated, Horse Dentist got the wolf teeth removed and floated the rest of their teeth for us. One horse had an overgrown molar he couldn't fix, so Vet came and sedated horse, cut off an inch of tooth that was higher than all the other molars. After that, we kept tooth even with the rest of molars on that part of the jaw.

Bad teeth, teeth with problems, can affect the whole health of the horse because he can't chew well.

We automatically have wolf teeth removed when our horses start getting teeth checked as early yearlings. Some wolf teeth come in later, but usually the experienced Vet or Horse Dentist can spot those wolf teeth coming along and pop them out. Smaller is easier!! Getting mouth worked on, opened and looked at, makes horse lots easier to deal with later when he actually NEEDS something done in there. Ours are not sedated because they don't use power tools on them, they all stand well for being worked on.

Once wolf teeth are out, you can use any bit you like, or go to bitless. I also would NOT use a hackamore which INCLUDES the bosal. A proper Hackamore with bosal, can tear up a horse face pretty fast in unskilled hands. Horse CAN just bull thru the bosal, so you have as much control as using a halter with lead ropes, which is no control unless horse gives it to you. 

Mechanical Hackamore bits without mouthpieces work according to how you adjust them, use the reins. I always use one for little kids on the equine, to equalize horse strength and kid control with little kid strength. No ripping on the horse mouth by unsteady child hands, but kid can get horse to do as asked.


----------



## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

goodhors said:


> Why don't you just have the Horse Dentist or Vet out to remove the wolf teeth? If this older horse still has wolf teeth, he probably NEEDS to have some mouth work done anyway. Could have points or badly worn teeth that don't match the opposite teeth. Might have an overgrown molar up in a space where another tooth got knocked out.
> 
> We purchased some older horses, not in their teens, but both had good sized wolf teeth that had to come out. It wasn't that hard, horses cooperated, Horse Dentist got the wolf teeth removed and floated the rest of their teeth for us. One horse had an overgrown molar he couldn't fix, so Vet came and sedated horse, cut off an inch of tooth that was higher than all the other molars. After that, we kept tooth even with the rest of molars on that part of the jaw.
> 
> ...


I just got this horse last Oct. In the sale, they had him cut and teeth floated. Figured they would have removed the wolfies!
My vet is coming Monday for his coggins test. I'll ask her about removal. I figured he'd have to be sedated etc.
Supposedly, he was a show horse, but I don't know what kind. Original owners moved to Florida, and left 4 horses in Kentucky.
I purchased this one, and brought him to Illinois. He's a LOVER! A gentle Giant!
But doesn't like the bit!


----------



## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm sure that breaking a nose bone _can_ happen with a hackamore but it's just not something that happens with normal riding.
> 
> At 17, and if you aren't going to show, use the bitless bridle. If you want to use a mechanical hack this type is fairly mild with decent hands:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the picture! It looks like a decent one!


----------



## rambotex (May 5, 2014)

would get the teeth pulled and floated; might make sure the signs are right.

We start our Colts in a Bosal and then put a snaffle before curb


----------



## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

TerryR said:


> I just got this horse last Oct. In the sale, they had him cut and teeth floated. Figured they would have removed the wolfies!
> My vet is coming Monday for his coggins test. I'll ask her about removal. I figured he'd have to be sedated etc.
> Supposedly, he was a show horse, but I don't know what kind. Original owners moved to Florida, and left 4 horses in Kentucky.
> I purchased this one, and brought him to Illinois. He's a LOVER! A gentle Giant!
> But doesn't like the bit!


They cut a 16 year old stallion? Poor guy. Did his behavior change much, or do you know how he behaved before you purchased him? It's hard on those older horses to geld them. Not saying that wasn't a good thing, but it can be a futile effort in older males that have certain behaviors ingrained in them at that age.


----------



## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

rambotex said:


> would get the teeth pulled and floated; might make sure the signs are right.
> 
> We start our Colts in a Bosal and then put a snaffle before curb


Yep, same here. Start them in a Bosal then go to snaffle, but seldom do I use a curb. I only have a couple in all my years of training that didn't take a bit of some sort. Thankfully they were trail horses and I could ride them in pretty much anything that didn't have a bit. I like the Bosal, it gives me good control.


----------



## rambotex (May 5, 2014)

aoconnor1 said:


> Yep, same here. Start them in a Bosal then go to snaffle, but seldom do I use a curb. I only have a couple in all my years of training that didn't take a bit of some sort. Thankfully they were trail horses and I could ride them in pretty much anything that didn't have a bit. I like the Bosal, it gives me good control.


I hear'ya. I can ride the 2 I have left with a halter and lead rope, lol. The 2 Eyed Jack /Leo Mare I have left I ride with just a sweet copper snaffle, she's 14. The little Easter Gentleman gelding has a mild grazing bit


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

aoconnor1 said:


> They cut a 16 year old stallion? Poor guy. Did his behavior change much, or do you know how he behaved before you purchased him? It's hard on those older horses to geld them. Not saying that wasn't a good thing, but it can be a futile effort in older males that have certain behaviors ingrained in them at that age.


I bought a 15 year old Crabbet gelding that I learned had been gelded the year before. There's not usually a problem with gelding older stallions.

My guy retained some mild stallion issues- sniffing manure, a bit looky, sometimes vocal, just little things. My daughter outgrew him and we sold him to another horse family for their 12 year old.


----------



## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

Better to cut an older, nice stallion, than to condem him to going into a bad situation as a stallion. Quite a few folks I know have cut older horses, not wanting to sell them on or being used for breeding anymore. Horse made an EXCELLENT gelding, usable in all kinds of situations, were great riding or driving horses. They do stay a bit "looky", always check out the setting they are in, but you can't expect them to loose all the habits of years before. They are easily handled, willing to cooperate with you, fairly fearless in new situations, of the horses I know gelded late. We have done this, though horses were not old, 7 and 8, used in herd situations on the range. Made a couple great using horses for us!

Of course these were GOOD-MINDED, well trained stallions way BEFORE getting gelded. You are not going to turn an untrained, old rank horse into a nice gelding just by cutting him.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

This is one of those discussions that arises occasionally and usually gets pretty intense. 

Unless you're showing or have a specific need, use what's comfortable for you and the horse. 

There is no defined right and wrong if something is working. Use the bitless bridle if it works and don't worry about somebody else's rules.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

My biggest caution about bosals is that there is such a variety of quality among them. A poorly-made one (which is what I almost ALWAYS see sold in the tack stores) can be a torture device with its rough cheese-grater-like texture right on that nasal bone. A well-made one is expensive, an investment, and they do require some care and maintenance. They need to be shaped/fitted to the horse's face, carried correctly with the hanger and balanced correctly with the rein. There is a lot of finesse involved with bosal use and it is not for the inexperienced. Riding with a bosal, you give the horse a little bump with it, but mostly ride off the seat and legs. Bosals aren't much for steering.

If you're wanting to ride bitless, I feel that a mechanical hack or a sidepull is a better option FOR YOU and your horse than a bosal. If you're worried about the old "gonna break the horse's face" argument (and it is true that the leverage you CAN exert with a long-shanked mechanical hackamore could break bone, but someone who is doing that shouldn't be riding at all), the "Little S" that Irish Pixie posted or an English hack like shown below doesn't have the same capacity for injury as the mile-long shanks that some Western mechanical hacks have.










Replace the curb chain with a flat leather curb strap to further soften the action of a mechanical hackamore.

The "Little S" is my favorite mechanical hackamore but they can be a bit pricey.

Get those wolf teeth out. It isn't a major procedure. In three months, try him in a bit again. Have him carry a bit in his mouth but don't pull on it. Let him find a comfortable way to carry the bit without interference. Let him see that it doesn't have to hurt. Let him pack the bit around while you are riding him in the mechanical hack.

On the other hand - and please don't take offense - maybe your hands are harder than he is used to. You have a second pair of eyes that can watch you and your horse ride and see what might be going on? I know you said that you tried different bits, but does that include different kinds of mouthpieces? Single-jointed, double-jointed, thin, thick, curved, flat, low port, no port...


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Good point, Jennigrey. A low palate, a fat tongue, or both, can cause most bits to hit the top of the mouth. A french link (double joint) doesn't cause the cracker jack effect that a single joint (regular snaffle) has. Some curb mouthpieces can do the same thing. 

It may not be the wolf teeth...


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I have used mechanical hackamores for some horses. Especially on one who simply ignored the bit outside of the arena. He would simply not stop.It meant less fighting on the trail. 
Another advantage was that it made grazing during breaks on long rides easier. For this unusual horse it was a total win.

90 % of the horses I've ridden in a snaffle without issue. It's by far my favorite bit. 

If he is a horse who tosses his head when something upsets him, it maybe be that the bit hits hits his wolf teeth and that distress compounts the problem. You can try wrapping the mouthpiece in latex or get a covered bit.

Sometimes, although it seems counter intuitive, a higher leverage hackamore can work wonders because the goal is to not have to use it much at all. If you are constantly having to nag a horse who doesn't respect your mild apparatus, then neither of you will have a pleasant ride. The best one just might be one that gets his attention so you almost never have to use it. But that also means the horse and you are so well trained that only minimal touches are needed for communication.

Basically soft hands, good seat and appropriate training will make anything work well. I love dressage training to develop a communication through the subtlest touches. It will teach a horse to react to the bit without upset because they know what is wanted long before any pressure escalates to pain.


----------



## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

wr said:


> This is one of those discussions that arises occasionally and usually gets pretty intense.
> 
> Unless you're showing or have a specific need, use what's comfortable for you and the horse.
> 
> There is no defined right and wrong if something is working. Use the bitless bridle if it works and don't worry about somebody else's rules.


Well said


----------



## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

aoconnor1 said:


> They cut a 16 year old stallion? Poor guy. Did his behavior change much, or do you know how he behaved before you purchased him? It's hard on those older horses to geld them. Not saying that wasn't a good thing, but it can be a futile effort in older males that have certain behaviors ingrained in them at that age.


I was told he was the low one on the Totem pole in the Kentucky barn. So I figure he was gentle minded before cut. He's still an easy going gentle horse now. He has now taken over my mare, and controls the barn etc. But not a harsh bone in his body since I got him last Oct. Just couldn't figure out his bit problem, till I learned abut Wolf teeth.
Thanks everyone for your input here!


----------



## Elsa (May 15, 2013)

I'd get his teeth done and while the vet is doing that ask about his mouth conformation. It may help you find a bit he is okay with if you know what is going on in there. Some horses have thick tongues that can make thick bits painful, they may have a narrow mouth that can cause a jointed bit to crack them in the roof of the mouth, etc. Even if you decide to use the bitless bridle or a hackamore it would be good to find out if there may be another option. 

As for other suitable hackamores maybe try these if you don't want one that applies much nose pressure.

flower hackamore:


or floatation hackamore:


----------



## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I had a mare with a bit sensitive mouth many years ago when I was a kid. I ended up riding her in a straight bar rubber snaffle. She was half Arab and quite responsive, she didn't need any pressure to stop or turn her - at times I rode her in the paddock with a rope around her neck or not bridle at all. We did a lot of basic dressage training and she'd respond to the movement of my body weight, tension in my back, etc. She wouldn't tolerate a regular snaffle and never tried anything else once she was in the rubber one. We were happy. Here's a picture, cuz I know how much you all like pictures for pictures sake! lol Taken circa 1970.


----------



## rambotex (May 5, 2014)

That was a mighty nice look'n Mare ( and Rider too, LOL)


----------



## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Arab TB cross, ran wild until she was 7, I got her green broke (the guy who trained her did a wonderful job on her ground manners and a good job breaking her). She was in bad shape when I got her, it took another year to really erase the years of running on the range I guess. I was 14 when we bought her and we certainly proved the adage of "green horse, green rider = black and blue", but darn she was the sweetest thing possible. She didn't mean to dump me, she just spooked at stuff a lot and my seat wasn't as good as it got later (it had to!). I wish I looked and felt half that good today! We did develop a wonderful partnership. I had to sell her when I was 19 - my folks moved and I went to college, no place to keep her. That was hard. 

Anyway.... that's a bit of thread drift. I really hope the OP can find a suitable bridle, one that is comfortable for the rider and the horse, that maintains good control safely and can enjoy riding what sounds like a nice older horse!


----------



## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

You have the bit-less. You are doing well with the bit-less. Use the bit-less. I used them on my donkeys for driving and would never use anything else.


----------

