# The SHTF Has Already Happened



## PrincessFerf (Apr 25, 2008)

For years this is what many "preppers" have talked about. I certainly didn't see this report in the MSM anywhere.

Those countries were foolish to have opened their borders so wide. So many uneducated, unemployed/unemployable people with nothing to do but build up anger will get you this violence. I believe those countries have remorse for being so generous. These places have become ghettos. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...utes-team-attacked-Sweden-shocking-video.html

Our times are perilous indeed. And more dangerous if you are naive on top of it all.


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## Bungiex88 (Jan 2, 2016)

Most of the citizens in those countries were against the refugees it was the political elite bringing them in.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Bungiex88 said:


> Most of the citizens in those countries were against the refugees it was the political elite bringing them in.


You know, every time people call them "the elite" that's just code for "They're much smarter and have more worldly knowledge than I do"

Seriously? Folks act like the word "elite" is some kind of insult...


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Murby said:


> You know, every time people call them "the elite" that's just code for "They're much smarter and have more worldly knowledge than I do"
> 
> Seriously? Folks act like the word "elite" is some kind of insult...


Actually, it's code for, "They *think* they're much smarter and have more worldly knowledge than I do", especially when their great ideas turn into bad ones.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Their problem is that they were not ready for the numbers of people. Europe has been taking in refugees from Africa for a long time. There were problems, but mainly cultural differences. Most people are good people, but too many people, all in shock from what they were escaping, all facing uncertainty, is going to cause problems. I don&#8217;t think they were stupid for taking people in, but they were not prepared to become a refugee camp.


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## reneedarley (Jun 11, 2014)

Living in Sweden I am amazed how much I learn about the country from Homesteading Forum.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

LOL, pretty easy to see who falls for the fake news. Good grief.

The Daily Mail is the UK equivalent of The National Enquirer in the US.

Always check your news sources. Always. And don't believe something just because it's what you want to believe. Check your own confirmation bias, too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail


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## StL.Ed (Mar 6, 2011)

Raeven said:


> LOL, pretty easy to see who falls for the fake news. Good grief.
> 
> The Daily Mail is the UK equivalent of The National Enquirer in the US.
> 
> ...


You don't like the news, so you call it fake and attack the source reporting it?
"*And don't believe something just because it's what you want to believe. Check your own confirmation bias, too.*"

Do you believe the Sydney Morning Harold? 
http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment...-masked-men-in-stockholm-20160301-gn79oi.html


> A Channel Nine cameraman and producer were assaulted and injured in Stockholm on Tuesday during the filming of a_ 60 Minutes_ story on the European refugee crisis.


Do you believe the *60 Minutes* video report?
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk35-_t0S0E[/ame]


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

StL.Ed said:


> You don't like the news, so you call it fake and attack the source reporting it?
> "*And don't believe something just because it's what you want to believe. Check your own confirmation bias, too.*"
> 
> Do you believe the Sydney Morning Harold?
> ...


First off, I never said there wasn't a kernel of truth in the story. There usually is -- it's just how a story is manipulated to look like something it isn't. That is the case here.

Second, did you read your own article? Did you notice it is in the *Entertainment* section -- not the *News* section -- of the SMH? Did you also note that the persons who did the attacking were never verified to be refugees -- only that it happened in an area where refugees happen to live?

From the SMH article you cited:

_"Channel Nine confirmed its 60 Minutes team ran into trouble in Stockholm but only provided basic details. It did however say that news service Avpixlat' report was "accurate". *Avpixlat is however well known in Sweden as a website that takes a strong anti-immigration stance in its coverage; several Swedish journalists contacted Fairfax directly to make this clear.*_
_*"In a suburb of Stockholm yesterday they were confronted by a group who objected to them filming,"* the Channel Nine statement read."_

*Nowhere in the above does the news team under attack indicate it was immigrants who attacked them.

*As for your video, yes, a cameraman got his foot run over. Not nice. But the entire piece was done from the perspective of Jan Sjunnesson, a self-identified anti-immigrant activist, who pushed his agenda hard.

If you accept all this as your actual news without digging deeper, then I sure understand why you fall for this sort of trash.

*Maura* stated the problem above very succinctly and well: Too many immigrants all at once with no infrastructure to support them, keeping them poor and unemployed, is a recipe for challenging times. That doesn't mean the refugees are evil, terrible people. It means they feel what any human being would feel under similar circumstances.

And what that has to do with the refugee situation here in the USA is exactly nothing.

Some facts for your consideration:

As indicated in your video, Sweden took more than 160,000 refugees in just the past year. A nation of 9.6 million people total. And they are still taking refugees, so long as the refugees can present identity papers.

By contrast, here in the USA, we took in 84,995 total refugees -- not just Syrians, but total refugees -- in 2016. In a nation of 323 million.

So we took roughly half of what Sweden did, in a nation that's more than 35 times the size of Sweden, population wise.

Some more facts for you:

*Zero* legal refugees from any of the nations named in Trump's illegal Muslim ban have attacked or killed anyone on American soil since 9/11.

*One* legal immigrant has attacked and killed Americans on American soil in the past 16 years since 9/11. *no really* will remember which one.

No person accepted to the United States as a refugee, Syrian or otherwise, has been implicated in a major fatal terrorist attack since the Refugee Act of 1980 set up systematic procedures for accepting refugees into the United States.

Before 1980, three refugees had successfully carried out terrorist attacks; all three were Cuban refugees, and a total of three people were killed.

Your odds of being attacked and/or killed by a legal immigrant/refugee to this country are about *one in 3.64 billion*. 

I can sure see what all the fuss is about.  Better git yer guns and hide the family under the bed!!


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Raeven said:


> Some more facts for you:
> 
> *Zero* legal refugees from any of the nations named in Trump's illegal Muslim ban have attacked or killed anyone on American soil since 9/11.
> 
> ...


That information you cited was put out by the mainstream media.
It didn't take long to document that they were reciting false information.
From an earlier thread.......



> *A review of information compiled by a Senate committee in 2016 reveals that 72 individuals from the seven countries covered in President Trump's vetting executive order have been convicted in terror cases since the 9/11 attacks. These facts stand in stark contrast to the assertions by the Ninth Circuit judges who have blocked the president's order on the basis that there is no evidence showing a risk to the United States in allowing aliens from these seven terror-associated countries to come in.
> 
> In June 2016 the Senate Subcommittee on Immigration and the National Interest, then chaired by new Attorney General Jeff Sessions, released a report on individuals convicted in terror cases since 9/11. Using open sources (because the Obama administration refused to provide government records), the report found that 380 out of 580 people convicted in terror cases since 9/11 were foreign-born. The report is no longer available on the Senate website, but a summary published by Fox News is available here.
> 
> ...


http://cis.org/vaughan/study-reveals-72-terrorists-came-countries-covered-trump-vetting-order


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

farmrbrown said:


> That information you cited was put out by the mainstream media.
> It didn't take long to document that they were reciting false information.
> From an earlier thread.......
> 
> ...


Funny thing... perusing your link, I see that the authors were careful to mention that these people were convicted of terror cases -- but they fail to mention that *none* were convicted of terror cases *in the United States*. Please point me to where I am wrong. Please direct me to *any* terrorist attack committed by these scary, nefarious 72 people on American citizens in the United States.

And of course it is promulgated by Fox "News," the biggest Republican Pravda organization ever. Well, except maybe Infowars or Zerohedge.

Facts is facts. I stand by mine.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Raeven said:


> Funny thing... perusing your link, I see that the authors were careful to mention that these people were convicted of terror cases -- but they don't mention that none were convicted of terror cases *in the United States*. Please point me to where I am wrong. Please direct me to *any* terrorist attack committed by these scary, nefarious 72 people on American citizens in the United States.
> 
> And of course it is promulgated by Fox "News," the biggest Republican Pravda organization ever. Well, except maybe Infowars or Zerohedge.
> 
> Facts is facts. I stand by mine.


I'll do my best.
Also it was reported by FOX, yes.
That's NOT where the info came from though, THAT might be a little more enlightening for you.

http://cis.org/About



> The Center for Immigration Studies is an independent, non-partisan, non-profit, research organization. Since our founding in 1985, we have pursued a single mission &#8211; providing immigration policymakers, the academic community, news media, and concerned citizens with reliable information about the social, economic, environmental, security, and fiscal consequences of legal and illegal immigration into the United States.
> 
> The Center is governed by a diverse board of directors that has included active and retired university professors, civil rights leaders, and former government officials. Our research and analysis has been funded by contributions and grants from dozens of private foundations, from the U.S. Census Bureau and Justice Department, and from hundreds of generous individual donors.
> 
> Our board, our staff, our researchers, and our contributor base are not predominantly "liberal" or predominantly "conservative." Instead, we believe in common that debates about immigration policy that are well-informed and grounded in objective data will lead to better immigration policies.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

I saw from where the information was supposedly promulgated. If the original report had still been available, I'd have read that in its entirety. Of course it wasn't -- just what was filtered through Fox "News." Sorry, that is never a credible source to me. Learned through many, many years of watching and documenting their blatant misleading stories and outright lies.

I appreciate your efforts and will readily give you your due if you can produce one shred of credible, verifiable evidence on the matter.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Raeven said:


> Funny thing... perusing your link, I see that the authors were careful to mention that these people were convicted of terror cases -- but they fail to mention that *none* were convicted of terror cases *in the United States*. Please point me to where I am wrong. Please direct me to *any* terrorist attack committed by these scary, nefarious 72 people on American citizens in the United States.


Well, I'll have to keep looking.
This guy would have met the qualification you asked for..........but he didn't make it to trial.
:cowboy:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/28/us/ohio-state-university-active-shooter/index.html



> (CNN)The Ohio State University student who carried out a knife attack on campus Monday said in a Facebook post he was "sick and tired" of seeing fellow Muslims "killed and tortured," according to federal law enforcement officials.
> 
> Investigators are examining Abdul Razak Ali Artan's Facebook page to determine whether the attack was terrorism, though law enforcement officials said it will take time to ascertain motive.
> In a Facebook post shortly before the Monday morning rampage, the Somali immigrant urged America "to stop interfering with other countries, especially the Muslim Ummah," a term for Muslim people at large.
> ...


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

To imagine that there will be zero terrorist attacks on our soil from even legal, vetted refugees/immigrants is idiotic. But the fear instilled in our citizens and attendant responses are so hugely disproportionate to the actual threat -- and that is my point. Even if I give you all 72 of those mentioned in the Fox "News" report (and I don't), the actual threat pales in comparison to our hysterical responses. It makes us look weak and pitiful in the eyes of the world -- with good reason.

Not only that, if you closely read the article to which you cited me, you'd understand that the man's motivation for committing his act was the persecution he suffered in this country. What he did was despicable, but pay heed to his reasons. All the things we are doing now will only add to this feeling among legal refugees/immigrants.

I miss the days when we had a collective spine and did the right thing, even when it was hard and slightly dangerous. _That_ was what defined 'American exceptionalism.' It's gone now.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

farmrbrown said:


> I'll do my best.
> Also it was reported by FOX, yes.
> That's NOT where the info came from though, THAT might be a little more enlightening for you.
> 
> http://cis.org/About


A mission statement does not an impartial organization make. It's just stuff they say. I long ago researched that group. They are far from impartial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Immigration_Studies

_"Reports published by the CIS have been widely deemed misleading and riddled with basic errors by scholars on immigration; think tanks from across the ideological and political spectrum; media of all stripes; several leading nonpartisan immigration-research organizations; and by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. The organization has also drawn criticism for its financial and intellectual ties to extremist racists."_


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Raeven said:


> To imagine that there will be zero terrorist attacks on our soil from even legal, vetted refugees/immigrants is idiotic.


That's kinda why I wondered why you would post what you did in post #9.

:shrug:


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

farmrbrown said:


> That's kinda why I wondered why you would post what you did in post #9.
> 
> :shrug:


Why do you cherry-pick so? I explained all that. We are creating more terrorists with our fearful responses than by accepting that our present vetting system works just fine. The threat to Americans is miniscule. The rewards to treating refugees/immigrants like the human beings they are is immense. 

Sweden has testicles thirty-five times the size of ours.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Raeven said:


> Why do you cherry-pick so? I explained all that. We are creating more terrorists with our fearful responses than by accepting that our present vetting system works just fine. The threat to Americans is miniscule. The rewards to treating refugees/immigrants like the human beings they are is immense.
> 
> Sweden has testicles thirty-five times the size of ours.


Cherry pick?

If you mean about the so called "fact" that there were *zero* terrorist attacks by anyone (or refugee, legal/illegal immigrant was another specific term used) from the countries under Trump's ban, it was because it was so blatantly untrue.
Yet that same talking point was repeated in every major news outlet for days, hoping no one would verify it.
Fortunately some people did and as you said, it would be idiotic to believe that.

Sweden also has something else about 35 times bigger..........a Muslim immigrant problem.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

farmrbrown said:


> Cherry pick?
> 
> If you mean about the so called "fact" that there were *zero* terrorist attacks by anyone (or refugee, legal/illegal immigrant was another specific term used) from the countries under Trump's ban, it was because it was so blatantly untrue.
> Yet that same talking point was repeated in every major news outlet for days, hoping no one would verify it.
> ...


No. No one died in the attack. 

I know it suits your narrative, but you're moving the goal posts. You have still not shown what I said above to be untrue in any way. Your best effort yields exactly *one* attack -- and it is outside the parameters of what I stated. 

But to you, because you are so married to your ideology, you actually think you made a valid point. You didn't. What I cited was blatantly *true*, and you are unable to refute it in any honest way.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Raeven said:


> And what that has to do with the refugee situation here in the USA is exactly nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Raeven said:


> No. * No one died in the attack.*
> 
> I know it suits your narrative, but you're moving the goal posts. You have still not shown what I said above to be untrue in any way. Your best effort yields exactly *one* attack -- and it is outside the parameters of what I stated.
> 
> But to you, because you are so married to your ideology, you actually think you made a valid point. You didn't. What I cited was blatantly *true*, and you are unable to refute it in any honest way.


*I* moved the goal posts?




> attacked or killed


I know, it would have been much more effective had they managed to kill one of the 20 victims, but ya can't win 'em all..........

Here's one more.
Again, he didn't make it to trial.

http://www.sctimes.com/story/news/l...ral-hurt-crossroads-center-incident/90607870/



Now, if I was gonna move the goal posts, I might include something like "honor killings"....... 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/11/1...ment-mulls-guidelines-as-grim-toll-rises.html


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

farmrbrown said:


> *I* moved the goal posts?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's fair. I did say "attacked or killed." It was inadvertent. However, your recent cite does not establish:

1) That he was an immigrant/refugee; or
2) That it was a terrorist attack. Might have just been a crazy person who happened to be from Somalia. His family may be from Somalia, but he may have been an American citizen. You don't know. Can you show that terrorism was the motive that was finally established, or that he was actually a legal immigrant/refugee? Because otherwise, by your reasoning we should be locking up anyone who goes nuts and knifes a bunch of people, irrespective of where their family migrated from. Irish? Polish? Canadians? Australians? American is American, or don't you agree? Is it just the swarthy people who can't stay?

In your own article, law enforcement _"pointedly declined to call the attacks an act of terrorism, *saying the motive isn't yet known.*"_

So... you're up to 11 people in the USA who were attacked by one Muslim immigrant. Since 1980. Not sure where you got the figure of 20. Your own article says 11.


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## Twp.Tom (Dec 29, 2010)

Fear and hate, will become a liability if S would hit the fan-it will alienate You, from Your fellow human. Understanding and compassion will carry You so much further-"this", is what brings us together*


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Raeven said:


> That's fair. I did say "attacked or killed." It was inadvertent. However, your recent cite does not establish:
> 
> 1) That he was an immigrant/refugee; or
> 2) That it was a terrorist attack. Might have just been a crazy person who happened to be from Somalia. His family may be from Somalia, but he may have been an American citizen. You don't know. Can you show that terrorism was the motive that was finally established, or that he was actually a legal immigrant/refugee? Because otherwise, by your reasoning we should be locking up anyone who goes nuts and knifes a bunch of people, irrespective of where their family migrated from. Irish? Polish? Canadians? Australians? American is American, or don't you agree? Is it just the swarthy people who can't stay?
> ...



Okey Dokey........
I'll give you half credit though, if you catch the fact that although his family his Somalian, he was born in Kenya, NOT one of the 7 countries listed in the ban.
They are next door.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Minnesota_mall_stabbing



> *Before the spree ended, ten people were injured, three of whom were hospitalized with non-life-threatening wounds.[4] Reports said the attacker made references to Allah, including shouting "Allahu Akbar",[3] and asked several people if they were Muslim.[5][6][7][8][9]
> 
> Immediately following the stabbings, the attacker was confronted by Jason Falconer, an off-duty police officer from nearby Avon, Minnesota.[5][6][10][11][12] When the attacker asked Falconer if he was a Muslim and Falconer answered no, he fled into the Macy's store, pursued by Falconer, who ordered him to drop his weapons. The attacker ran into the clothing display area, turned towards Falconer, and laid down on the floor while still holding both knives. He then charged at Falconer, who fired multiple rounds and shot him, and both fell down briefly in the main aisle. The attacker got up and charged at Falconer again, but was shot again and fatally wounded.[3]
> 
> ...





And yes you are correct about what the cops said.
Incredibly, here's the quote............



> Anderson said the attacker, who was armed with a knife, reportedly made references to Allah during the attack and asked at least one person whether they were Muslim. But Anderson pointedly declined to call the attacks an act of terrorism, saying the motive isn't yet known.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

I'm sure at the age of two, he had already formulated his evil plans to be a terrorist when he took refuge in this country.  You really don't see how he was radicalized after living here his whole life? You're unable to make that distinction?

But ok, sure, technically you're up to 2 people in America who arrived here as legal refugees/immigrants and who subsequently attacked -- but didn't kill -- 21 Americans. Only one has ever done that. 

Far from the 72 you referenced in your first post.

That's all you need to hate these people so much, is it?

Again, I would point out that the proportionate response of your hatred is embarrassingly outsized to the actual threat posed. But it is obvious you'll never grasp that.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Raeven said:


> I'm sure at the age of two, he had already formulated his evil plans to be a terrorist when he took refuge in this country.  You really don't see how he was radicalized after living here his whole life? You're unable to make that distinction?
> 
> But ok, sure, technically you're up to 2 people in America who arrived here as legal refugees/immigrants and who subsequently attacked -- but didn't kill -- 21 Americans. Only one has ever done that.
> 
> ...



"the proportionate response of your hatred"...???

Citing a fact or correcting a misstatement is now a sign of hatred?
The hate in my posts was demonstrated by the attackers, not me.

And yes, as was discussed in the thread I pulled that link from (Bearfoot's post) most of the 72 in that report were caught *before* they succeeded in their plans.
So fortunately, the number of dead and wounded are still well below the point where we could say, "Boy, was THAT ever a dumb move!"


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

farmrbrown said:


> "the proportionate response of your hatred"...???
> 
> Citing a fact or correcting a misstatement is now a sign of hatred?
> The hate in my posts was demonstrated by the attackers, not me.
> ...


But you haven't refuted anything I asserted, except my mistake of inadvertently including the word, "attacked." 

You've not shown that any more Americans have been killed on American soil by legal immigrants/refugees than what I said in my original post. You demonstrated that *two only* -- not seventy-two -- did in fact successfully attack 21 Americans, none of whom died. Since 1980, a period of nearly 40 years. (And be honest. It's a bit of a stretch to say a two-year-old was an active terrorist when he arrived in this country.)

In one of those two instances, you did not prove or demonstrate that terrorism was the motive -- although I know that to you, just someone saying the words, "Allahu Akbar" are sufficient "proof." It isn't to those whose jobs it is to determine actual motives. Just as the attacker in the Florida night club killings was an *American citizen* who purportedly said those words, it had nothing to do with his reasons for attacking gay people. The illegal Muslim ban would do *nothing* to address those sorts of attacks.

You did not prove that my sources for news are "fake." In fact, you have demonstrated that yours are substantially more misleading.

As for most of the 72 being caught before they carried out their plans... doesn't that demonstrate exactly how effective the measures we already have in place are? What problem do you think you're "fixing?" We don't catch every instance of white supremacist terrorism that occurs in this country either -- but I don't see us building walls around Dixie. 

You keep dancing around some unstated factor that in your mind makes these people *different*. I wonder what it is. Give it a think, and see if you can tell me.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Raeven said:


> But you haven't refuted anything I asserted, except my mistake of inadvertently including the word, "attacked."
> 
> You've not shown that any more Americans have been killed on American soil by legal immigrants/refugees than what I said in my original post. You demonstrated that *two only* -- not seventy-two -- did in fact successfully attack 21 Americans, none of whom died. Since 1980, a period of nearly 50 years. (And be honest. It's a bit of a stretch to say a two-year-old was an active terrorist when he arrived in this country.)


That's true.
The ones that carry out these attacks rarely do anything when they first arrive, it usually takes several years before they act.

And why someone has to actually be killed to be accepted as sufficient reason is beyond my understanding. Slicing random people is way over the line IMO.





> In one of those two instances, you did not prove or demonstrate that terrorism was the motive -- although I know that to you, just someone saying the words, "Allahu Akbar" are sufficient "proof." It isn't to those whose jobs it is to determine actual motives. Just as the attacker in the Florida night club killings was an *American citizen* who purportedly said those words, it had nothing to do with his reasons for attacking gay people. The illegal Muslim ban would do *nothing* to address those sorts of attacks.
> 
> You did not prove that my sources for news are "fake." In fact, you have demonstrated that yours are substantially more misleading.



Again, if the actions reported aren't enough to convince you that it was a "jihad" then nothing I say will either.




> As for most of the 72 being caught before they carried out their plans... doesn't that demonstrate exactly how effective the measures we already have in place are? What problem do you think you're "fixing?" We don't catch every instance of white supremacist terrorism that occurs in this country either -- but I don't see us building walls around Dixie.
> 
> You keep dancing around some unstated factor that in your mind makes these people *different*. I wonder what it is. Give it a think, and see if you can tell me.



Oh I already did.



> The hate in my posts was demonstrated by the attackers, not me.



But I'll be clear.
The difference is, I don't want to kill an innocent stranger in their own country or anywhere else, because they aren't of the same faith as I am.
Nope, I can honestly say that thought has never crossed my mind.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

My girlfriend used a nanny service; 10 years ago, she had a German nanny.

She told us that the refugees were taking over Germany, that they do not love Germany, they do not want to become Germans, nor do they care to assimilate into German life: quite the contrary.......they DEMAND that Germans accommodate them in every way.
The refugees were angry, violent, and entitled.
She said it was very sad to watch her Germany erode away......

This was 10 years ago.

How do you prep for an 'invasion' or 'hostile take over' that is subtle?
Know thy enemy.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Did anyone happen to notice the date on the OP's link? It was March 18, 2016. 11 months ago. Kind of disingenuous to post a eleven month old article and pretend it's news. 

Maybe it's something that was mentioned by someone else as news? Sweden replies(incidentally, this is actual news, with today's date): http://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...p-remark-imaginary-incident-article-1.2976611


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yep.
If you can ridicule it enough and twist a few facts around, you can stick your head in the sand and pretend...... it ......never.......happened.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Here's some more actual news, from a real conservative. There's nothing remotely funny about any of this. 
McCain Warns Suppressing Press &#8216;Is How Dictators Get Started&#8217;


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## reneedarley (Jun 11, 2014)

Raeven said:


> First off, I never said there wasn't a kernel of truth in the story. There usually is -- it's just how a story is manipulated to look like something it isn't. That is the case here.


 I have trouble following the thread because of the time zone.
There is of course a lot of truth in the articles. There is no smoke without a fire.
But particularly that article puzzles me. I canÂ´t remember when it was first aired. Several months ago. Masks are forbidden in Sweden so it surprises me that the police did not pull these hoodlums in straight away.
I don't know so much about it as the episode scarcely hit the main stream Swedish news.
Of course we have had some really nasty incidents. Stokholm, GÃ¶teborg and MalmÃ¶ have ghetto like areas. I believe some cities in the States may also have ghettos. Two poor helpers have been killed by insane refugees. Tragedies that are beyond acceptance. Refugees have attacked their wives. Here one threw his baby off a bridge before jumping to his death. These are desperate sick people and a minimal minority. I am surprised that their are not more episodes considering how many thousands and thousands Sweden has taken in.
Thousands and thousands. There are 188 inhabitants in our parish. I used to write 192 but 4 have died this winter. We have had 120 refugees living in TWO BIG HOUSES. We have had 4 refugees per room, 8x10 feet for 18 months. This is worse that prison. This is Northers Sweden- long winters, little light, temps down to - 40. Abdullah, a chartered accountant helped me with my taxes last year. When he came into my kitchen he had tears in his eyes "Renee, this is the first time I have been in a real house for over a year."
These people are from a totally different culture YES. But actually 90% of them come here with open minds, curious about our culture. But we are so damned heartless, so damned cold and often frightened of the unknown that we shun them . Stick our heads in the sand. What is the point of letting all these people in if we are not prepared to open our hearts. 
I have seen it in Denmark, worked with thes families for 30 years , the Vietnamese, the Serbs and those from Kosova, the Iranians, Palestinians, those fron Lebanon, then Iraq and now Afghanistan and Syria.
The parents struggle, try ti integrate and are very, very often shunned. Their kids do not respect their weak miserable parents . Angry adolescents they look for an answer. Turn their faces to a more radical religion. Blame European civilisation for their problems. I regret to say in many ways I agree with them.
These are the terrorists we are now facing. If we do not find ways to live together there will be more and more of them in the future.


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## reneedarley (Jun 11, 2014)

As a young girl I read the words "the confidence trick is the work of man. The lack of confidence trick is the work of the devil". I vowed never to forget those words. It does get harder to live the way I do but I still believe that it is the right way in the eyes of God, Allah or whoever whatever he is. Or just plain humanity if that pleases you.
This is the survival forum. I live pretty isolated -was blessed a couple of years ago when Tom packed his belongings in Ohio and came to share my life.
The last three years I/we have been busy together with others in our village.
I do not look at the politics, I look at the people we meet who need us to stop, smile, take time to drink a coffee, try to help in any small way we can. But most often it is them who help us. Their gratitude makes me humble -their concern for me is so sincere. 
And prepping. WOW The Eriteans come from shacks. Sami is a fisher, he now repairs the village nets and will help in the lake in the summer.
And the delicious meals we make from absolutely nothing. Essaq from Afghanistan is a butcher. A muslim butcher. The bull was shot by the Swedish neighbour and expertly butchered by Essaq.
Safwan from Syria can mend cars. I think he could mend a cat with a shoestring. The way he pulled out the front and fender on our neighbours Mercedes using a pulley, a tree , a hammer and two logs was completely amazing. And the food did I mention the food. The pizzas ,the sweets, the grill parties we have in our community.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQGGX7eCtoY"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQGGX7eCtoY[/ame] 
Senat from Irak is a cheese maker. I bring milk to her and she simply wizards it into perfect Halloumi every time.
Rashad is an artist . 








He is busy with art lessons for the kids in the village - oh and a horse without a tail for the Christmas party








But these things are not happening in many communities. The locals are frightened of the refugees. Do not take the time to get to know them. This is a great loss for us all


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## StL.Ed (Mar 6, 2011)

Raeven said:


> First off, I never said there wasn't a kernel of truth in the story. There usually is -- it's just how a story is manipulated to look like something it isn't. That is the case here.


You implied it was "fake news" and derided the source. I simply pointed you to two other sources that confirm the truth of the news.


Raeven said:


> Second, did you read your own article? Did you notice it is in the *Entertainment* section -- not the *News* section -- of the SMH? Did you also note that the persons who did the attacking were never verified to be refugees -- only that it happened in an area where refugees happen to live?


Actually, the Sydney Morning Harold had it classified as entertainment/tv-and-radio/*news-and-current-affairs.* It's probably under the entertainment umbrella because it involves a 60 Minutes report. That doesn't make it any less news worthy, nor less true.
Also, I didn't say it the attackers were refugees; perhaps *you* assumed that from the context, or from the color of the attackers' skin. The 60 Minutes video did, however, include a portion where a refugee was being interviewed; he seemed to say there were some problems with refugees. 


Raeven said:


> From the SMH article you cited:
> 
> _"Channel Nine confirmed its 60 Minutes team ran into trouble in Stockholm but only provided basic details. It did however say that news service Avpixlat' report was "accurate". *Avpixlat is however well known in Sweden as a website that takes a strong anti-immigration stance in its coverage; several Swedish journalists contacted Fairfax directly to make this clear.
> *_


Since 60 Minutes confirmed that the report was accurate, what difference do the claims about Avpixlat make? Or are you saying that 60 Minutes is incorrect about its verification?



Raeven said:


> _*"In a suburb of Stockholm yesterday they were confronted by a group who objected to them filming,"* the Channel Nine statement read."_
> 
> *Nowhere in the above does the news team under attack indicate it was immigrants who attacked them.
> 
> ...


I didn't say it was immigrants. Why did you mention immigrants?


Raeven said:


> As for your video, yes, a cameraman got his foot run over. Not nice. But the entire piece was done from the perspective of Jan Sjunnesson, a self-identified anti-immigrant activist, who pushed his agenda hard.
> 
> If you accept all this as your actual news without digging deeper, then I sure understand why you fall for this sort of trash.


Did you watch the entire video, including the interview portion with the refugee, and the can being thrown, and people being hit? 
Have you dug deeper into the refugee crisis in Sweden and the rest of Europe? I have. 
I accept that the attacks occurred because they were in the video. Why do you not accept the attacks occurred?


Raeven said:


> *Maura* stated the problem above very succinctly and well: Too many immigrants all at once with no infrastructure to support them, keeping them poor and unemployed, is a recipe for challenging times. That doesn't mean the refugees are evil, terrible people. It means they feel what any human being would feel under similar circumstances.


So, are you saying there isn't a problem, or that the problem is caused by "Too many immigrants all at once with no infrastructure to support them..."?
There either is a problem, or there isn't.



Raeven said:


> And what that has to do with the refugee situation here in the USA is exactly nothing.


And what does that have to do with the substance of my post? I didn't mention the USA at all in my post. Maybe you are arguing against things you are presuming, because you see a problem you don't want to admit you see. 



Raeven said:


> Some facts for your consideration:
> 
> As indicated in your video, Sweden took more than 160,000 refugees in just the past year. A nation of 9.6 million people total. And they are still taking refugees, so long as the refugees can present identity papers.
> 
> ...


The rest of this is thread drift, diverging from the original post and any post prior to yours. That fact not withstanding, I will state that I am willing for the USA to accept immigrants and refugees, as long as they enter the country legally, as long as their identities and papers are properly verified, and as long as there is a good plan in place for accepting and integrating them into our nation. Illegal entry, not having identity verification, and not having a good plan are what is causing issues in Europe.


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## PrincessFerf (Apr 25, 2008)

Being the OP, I shared this story (yes, I know how old it was) to show the 60 Minutes report on what they experienced when filming the problems going on in Sweden.

As I said in my OP, this is what happens when a group of people cannot/will not be employed and have too much time on their hands. Result.... angry people who cannot earn a living who become frustrated... then angry... then begin to lash out.

Due to the large influx of people into European countries in the past several years, there just doesn't seem to be enough work for them all. 

If they could make an honest living, care for their families and find language education classes, I'm sure many of them would assimilate. 

But the fact of the matter is that there are just so many people that came that it was nearly impossible to settle them all. Result? They will band together and fend for themselves. And become angry in the process. 

I'm not pointing fingers about who is at fault here, but the entire situation is a "hot mess". And in my opinion, if I lived in those areas I would consider this a SHTF scenario.

Now feel free to continue arguing about "fake news" and the reliability of the news from certain news outlets. I don't care much about that. I expect EVERY news outlet (local, national, international) to NEVER have all of the facts correct. Take it all with a grain of salt.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

If I were from a war torn country, 10 acres and a little house and the opportunity to make my own way would be heaven on earth. When we speak of "who we are" that would describe most of our ancestors and I doubt they complained much.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Illegal Immigrant Crimes:
http://www.fairus.org/issue/examples-of-serious-crimes-by-illegal-aliens

Refugee Crimes:
https://refugeeresettlementwatch.wo...d-on-terror-charges-and-other-heinous-crimes/

Sweden Archive:
https://refugeeresettlementwatch.wordpress.com/?s=Sweden

Follow out the associated links if you wish to rebut any of the accusations, please

And I would really appreciate any and all rebuttal from reneedarley as their eyes see these things from a local perspective. One question that I would ask though, without suggesting that I am correct is: Could the politicians in Sweden have enough pull to keep these reports out of reach for the common people of Sweden?


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Shine said:


> Illegal Immigrant Crimes:
> http://www.fairus.org/issue/examples-of-serious-crimes-by-illegal-aliens
> 
> Refugee Crimes:
> ...


What we really need to do is to get rid of all the Dihydrogen monoxide poisoning that's going on.
100% of all criminals in every one of our prison systems have tested positive for this chemical.. 
Its used as an industrial solvent in a long list of products and its been found to have leeched into almost every square inch of soil in the USA.. 

Every criminal has tested positive for it. Every cancer patient, every crazy person.. 

There's a common link there.. 

The moral of the lesson? A lack of critical thinking skills can lead one to think in ways that are not logical. 

Your post about illegal criminals is a "shining example"..


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## reneedarley (Jun 11, 2014)

GTX63 said:


> If I were from a war torn country, 10 acres and a little house and the opportunity to make my own way would be heaven on earth. When we speak of "who we are" that would describe most of our ancestors and I doubt they complained much.


 I agree, it would be lovely if that would work out.
There are lots of houses like that around where I live. They are empty because their owners emigrated to the U.S.A at the turn of the previous century because life here was too hard. And now there are even more expenses, people need cars, as the infra structure has disappeared through depopulation. Houses have to be insured by law and that is not cheap.
Most of these refugees come from cities where there were millions of inhabitants. I don't think they would last a month in our wilderness. 25% of them are dentists, accountants , engineers,etc. Their wives don't even know how to bake bread. Think about it - those who have been so lucky they got out have had the money to pay the smugglers. the vast majority of the poor souls are scarcely surviving in the camps on the Turkish, Lebonese and Jordanian borders.


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## reneedarley (Jun 11, 2014)

Shine said:


> And I would really appreciate any and all rebuttal from reneedarley as their eyes see these things from a local perspective. One question that I would ask though, without suggesting that I am correct is: Could the politicians in Sweden have enough pull to keep these reports out of reach for the common people of Sweden?


Thank you for your polite post.
Yes, whatever I write is what I see in my own small local area. But I do actually know personally a couple of senators and do not think they can hide much from our press.
I have glimpsed the links but would go crazy if I tried to make head or tail of all the discussions. 
Normally I do not try to give facts of which I am uncertain but here goes:
Sweden has been taking in a lot of refugees for a lot of years. It culminated in 2015 with the famous 163000. At that point, for about a couple of weeks there were people sleeping in sports centres and migration were begging private people to open their doors. "Corridor" accommodation was rented all over the country. At the same time borders were closed all over Europe ( also Sweden) At the moment we get about 500 refugees per week.
The figures I quote were given to me yesterday as I was at a local strategy meeting with the authorities yesterday.
Corridor accomodation wass a desperate solution to a desperate problem. As I have written before, two buildings are in use in our small village. The previous health centre and a big block that was used for drug addicts sent out from Stockholm in the 80's and 90's Similar buildings have been used all over Sweden. The refugees have been confined to these institutions with free movement 2 dollars pocket money a day and three meals a day. Kitchens are closed except at mealtimes. Often ar worst they were 4 to a room. I think they worked out that by law pigs were allowed more room than the refugees.
At the same time migration had to start vetting thousands and thousands of people to see if they would be allowed to stay in Sweden.
This fact is rarely mentioned. Yes Sweden has taken people in but are also throwing them out if they are not genuine refugees. And in 2014 and 15 Migrants were realising that Sweden was letting in everyone so we have so man people here who will be thrown out.
I talk to them, the young, hopeful Afghaniis who have fled to get a better life, yes, to get a better life but they do come from Teleban regions and have also left because they will not fight for the Teleban and to not agree with the diabolical treatment of women in this ridiculous understanding of the Koran.
So, the migrants are being thrown out but it is a very slow process in a democratic bureaucratic country which is so eager to be fair to everyone.
In our two corridor buildings, for 18 months, we have had 120 refugeesÂ´. From Afghanistan, Eritreaa, Somalia, Syria, Irak, Palestinians, Kurds from Iran, Syria and Irak Ukrainians Yemenese. Shia, Sunni, Atheists, Christians, Families, Homosexuals. People agreeing ith the regimes - people against the regimes. In 18 months we have had the police visit three times. One man had a breakdown and attacked his wife. He has been deported but she has been allowed to stay with her children. 
One of our refugees is nasty. (So are three Swedes in the village) He got drunk and threatened another refugee. By the time the police came (They are 70 miles away) the other refugees had found more whisky and he was sound asleep. His cousin has also visited and stole food from another refugee. Again a verbal fight and the thief was kicked out by the police.
At the present moment there are luckily only 6300 residents in corridor building and they will all be closed i three months. Sweden is building houses, renovating, private people are renting out accommodation.
Migration authorities are working non-stop vetting, people are being sent home - a slow process as they are allowed to appeal. But all the ones I know, have left the country - I do not believe that many disappear in the system. It is not easy to live in Sweden without a personal number. After vetting they are allowed to go to school and are given a wage of 700 dollars per adult to live on. They do however get subsidised housing as do Swedes in the low income bracket.
As to riots and no go zones . I know nothing of the cities in Sweden but I have experience from Denmark. There are NO areas where I would not dare walk alone during the day or night. From time to time there is social unrest and the police take it pretty laid back. Quote:" There were no arrests as the demonstrators ran too fast" This is social unrest in poor areas. Immigrants live in these areas and Danish/Swedish move out they can. 
Well, that was long winded. My humble view of what what is happening.
Many Swedes are becoming uneasy with the situation. BUT, from my view , we could cope and do need these people if only we all did more just to talk to them.
EDIT: I know you all like photos so here is our refugee team in town at the world Championships of the moose shin bone throwing. Do you know that the junior world champion is an Eritrean?


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

reneedarley said:


> Thank you for your polite post.
> Yes, whatever I write is what I see in my own small local area. But I do actually know personally a couple of senators and do not think they can hide much from our press.


Thank you for taking the time to tell us how you see it. Much of what we get here is processed in one angle or another... While I have no concept of what it would be like, I feel I have a little better perspective, again - thanks.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Shine said:


> Thank you for taking the time to tell us how you see it. Much of what we get here is processed in one angle or another... While I have no concept of what it would be like, I feel I have a little better perspective, again - thanks.


I would like to say 'thank you' to her as well.
She has a sweet soul and her posts are a gentle reminder to those of us who have forgotten our humanity at times.

"Be as wise as serpents and gentle as doves."


ETA:
Yet another day of learning something new here.........

Moose shin bone throwing competition.
:nanner:


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## Staceyy (Jun 16, 2007)

Maura said:


> Their problem is that they were not ready for the numbers of people. Europe has been taking in refugees from Africa for a long time. There were problems, but mainly cultural differences. Most people are good people, but too many people, all in shock from what they were escaping, all facing uncertainty, is going to cause problems. I donât think they were stupid for taking people in, but they were not prepared to become a refugee camp.


I agree with this.


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## kruschev (Dec 7, 2017)

shtf is not here until the $100 bill is nothing but toilet tissue. Anything less is just a localized thing that you can buy your way out of.


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