# Would be hero or out of control vigilante?



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/would-hero-arrested-tackling-armed-man-video-6222895?ref=rss

https://www.yahoo.com/news/man-assaulted-by-vigilante-at-florida-walmart-230643501.html

Would be hero or out of control vigilante? This probably ended in the best way possible. Nobody died.

Two seperate news sources for a story of a man tackled for legally carrying a gun into a Florida Walmart. The headlines of each paint the tackler in decidedly different lights. I'll let you decide which you agree with and speculate on the myriad of ways it could have gone worse.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Neither Idiot criminal.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Please put a line or two about what each link you post is about.

Most people will not click on blind, hit and run link postings.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Liberal Idiot.

The guy carrying the gun could easily have been an off duty LEO which would have landed him in even bigger hot water.

WWW


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Criminal! He is guilty of assault! An unprovoked attack on another person.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

wy_white_wolf said:


> Liberal Idiot.
> 
> The guy carrying the gun could easily have been an off duty LEO which would have landed him in even bigger hot water.
> 
> WWW


Yep I know some guys that would reversed that choke hold and may of shot the guy


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

And now,the rest of the story! Black man with a gun! Just another case of a fearful white guy profiling. Stand by for the rev. to get in on this one.

Wade


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

The wannabe do gooder is an idiot and lucky he didn't get shot.


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## FireMaker (Apr 3, 2014)

I will go with the idiot choice. The victim should have done a better job at concealing. If it was seen, it was not concealed. There are accidents where a coat flaps, etc and you could get a glimpse of a gun. I have carried for 25 years and I make an effort that it not be visible.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Seems like people in Florida would be used to people having guns on them by now. I hate to jump to the race card, but that may have been part of the assaulter's judgment mistake. Absolutely out of control. Not a terrible crime, and probably no malice, but sometimes stupid mistakes have serious consequences. This stupid mistake definitely should.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

> The victim should have done a better job at concealing. If it was seen, it was not concealed. There are accidents where a coat flaps, etc and you could get a glimpse of a gun.


According to the second link, the assaulter saw the victim putting it in the holster at his car, not that it was visible as he walked.

Could still be bad practice on the victim's part, but not as bad as it sounds. It's a little tough to put a gun in a hip holster (especially IWB) sitting in a car. Just easier to do it standing.


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

he is lucky he didn't get shot. I hope he gets hard time for his actions. IDIOT 

the victim could have legally shot him. 
if another CCL holder had of been there he could have shot the assailant also.


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

FireMaker said:


> I will go with the idiot choice. The victim should have done a better job at concealing. If it was seen, it was not concealed. There are accidents where a coat flaps, etc and you could get a glimpse of a gun. I have carried for 25 years and I make an effort that it not be visible.


incidental exposure is not a crime. If he was in his car it did not have to be concealed


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Just watched the rest of the video...one of the other "heroes" who jumped in to help restrain the victim stole his gun and handed it to another guy, who handed it to a third guy. Can't fault these guys too much for helping, since they didn't know the first vigilante was an idiot, but if they are handing his gun off to random people they don't know, they're idiots too. But maybe they knew each other. Just looked really stupid. Either way, they're lucky they weren't arrested for stealing the gun.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

GA is an CC carry state *as well as open carry* if permitted. Whenever I go the post office or where it is illegal to carry, I slip it out of my holster into the console before I go in. (Don't want a pic of me on the PO wall) I do my best to do so and it works best if I am standing. If someone happens to see me, well, so be it. I am not brandishing and doing my best to obey the law.
The same applies to hospitals here. They are not illegal to carry in, but signs are posted (and I could be asked to leave) and if I go in for an X-ray, I don't want some idiot flipping out when the see a gun on my waist or pocket. Most people that conceal carry, have their guns show every now and then, *IF *they are obeying the law.

I hope the dude that jumped the guy, goes to jail for assault.

Another thing, if that had been me he jumped, and what if I was deaf (I am not deaf) and could not hear the guy yelling "he has a gun"? I may have thought it was part of a new sort of "knock out game" where you choked, an innocent victim till passing out in public or some sort of gang initiation. If so, I would have done my best to get to one of my guns or knife and done my best to defend myself.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

This guy is a criminal and an idiot to boot.. I've been carrying concealed since the mid 80's. Now I carry concealed 6 days a week except Fridays where I carry open. Yes it is legal here and yes I've submitted to the Government and have a LTCF (license to carry a firearm). If someone jumps me, they had better expect to get shot. Even if I can't reach my level II Blackhawk secure holster with my 45 in it, I do have a BUG. Normally in my boot or in my belt buckle. 

This idiot is lucky to be alive.. I hope he is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

beowoulf90 said:


> This guy is a criminal and an idiot to boot.. I've been carrying concealed since the mid 80's. Now I carry concealed 6 days a week except Fridays where I carry open. Yes it is legal here and yes I've submitted to the Government and have a LTCF (license to carry a firearm). If someone jumps me, they had better expect to get shot. Even if I can't reach my level II Blackhawk secure holster with my 45 in it, I do have a BUG. Normally in my boot or in my belt buckle.
> 
> This idiot is lucky to be alive.. I hope he is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.



I was trying to figure why you would carry open on Friday. Then it dawned on me you must work where they observe "casual Friday!"


Wade


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

I didn't even need to see the video, or even to read the story, to know it was a black guy, carrying the legal gun and that the "vigilante" was white.

Racism is alive and well in America. _All races_ are to blame.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

FireMaker said:


> I will go with the idiot choice. The victim should have done a better job at concealing. If it was seen, it was not concealed. There are accidents where a coat flaps, etc and you could get a glimpse of a gun. I have carried for 25 years and I make an effort that it not be visible.


 Some places have Open Carry which I have done many times. Dang Pistol is just a Tool that never jumped out on its own and shot anyone.

big rockpile


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## wes917 (Sep 26, 2011)

He's lucky not to have been shot. He's an idiot, I hope charges are filed on him


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

1shotwade said:


> I was trying to figure why you would carry open on Friday. Then it dawned on me you must work where they observe "casual Friday!"
> 
> 
> Wade



:happy2: Not really.. When I first started doing it many years ago it was for a different reason.
There are 2 things I do on Fridays and have for many years.

The first is I wear a RED shirt or something mostly RED.
RED standing for "Remember Everyone Deployed"
As a veteran I understand
The second thing is to carry open. The original reason was to show the public that they had nothing to fear when seeing a weapon in a holster. The places I normally would go got used to it and now there isn't any questions or notice. This was around the same time a mother was being harassed by law enforcement for carrying at her children's soccer game, So PAFOA and others started to carry open 1 day a week. Now it is just habit.

but yes it is casual Friday, if you can call it that. Still wearing dress pants and shirt (western cut) and cowboy hat and boots. But this is every day at the office.. :happy2: 

Don't know if it is a good thing that I'm stuck in an office, but I had to do something after a drunk 20 yo took me off motorcycle one dark Sept night on my way home from work..  But that is another story..


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Wonder what that idiot in Fla would have done, if he had seen someone open carrying?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

wy_white_wolf said:


> Liberal Idiot.


Why call him a liberal? 
Liberals firmly believe in the right to carry arms in all situations .


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

The guy's an idiot. Could easily have been a racially reversed Travon.

Sitting at a bar late one night years ago I notice an overserved guy sitting next to me with an obvious revolver tenting his shirt in the back. Being the helpful person I am, I mentioned the cops walked through every now and then, and he might want to change the position of his gun. His answer: "I am a cop". For some reason I didn't feel any safer.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

I reckon all the Fla would be vigilantes need to be on their toes. As of Jan 1, 2015
their were *1,345,558* concealed carry holders in that state. 

http://legallyarmed.com/ccw_statistics.htm


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

Possum Belly said:


> I reckon all the Fla would be vigilantes need to be on their toes. As of Jan 1, 2015
> their were *1,345,558* concealed carry holders in that state.
> 
> http://legallyarmed.com/ccw_statistics.htm


that's misleading if it is just referring to active license holders. during 2008 and 2009 the out of state applicants far exceeded instate applicants.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

M5farm said:


> that's misleading if it is just referring to active license holders. during 2008 and 2009 the out of state applicants far exceeded instate applicants.



May be, I looked at another site and it says, (data from July 8, 2014)

"Âº Florida&#8217;s number includes a significant number of out of state residents."

http://crimepreventionresearchcente...y-Permit-Holders-Across-the-United-States.pdf

My point is that there are many concealed carry holders across the states and they have gone through background checks, etc and are legal. The guy or gal next to you at the grocery store or in church may be armed and legal. And just because someone catches a glimpse of a gun under a garment or OC it is not necessarily a bad guy.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

AmericanStand said:


> Why call him a liberal?
> Liberals firmly believe in the right to carry arms in all situations .


One can't be a Conservative and do something stupid.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

plowjockey said:


> One can't be a Conservative and do something stupid.


You are learning!!!!:happy2:


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## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

One time a fellow came into our store, and his coat flipped open and an employee saw the gun, he called the police, the police came quietly questioned the man and left him be. He had a permit. The officer told him to just be more careful about concealing the gun. I wasn't there, if I had been and saw a gun, I would have thought "good for him" and not cared. Of course I have seen rifles and assault weapons come through the door and never thought anything of it. Just looking for batteries for their scope. It is interesting how different people react to different situations. Maybe it is city verses country people, I don't really know.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

plowjockey said:


> I didn't even need to see the video, or even to read the story, to know it was a black guy, carrying the legal gun and that the "vigilante" was white.
> 
> Racism is alive and well in America. _All races_ are to blame.


It has been unanimous that the attacker is a criminal and idiot, why does he also have to be a racist? One article never mentions race and I had formed an opinion immediately without knowing the race. Have we been conditioned that things just being a crime are not enough, we must try to make the crime worse if one person is X, Y, or Z. Does it make us feel better to have a politically correct category to fit each crime into or shouldn't it just be enough to have the person charged on the provable facts without trying to guess his motivation?


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

I don't think it has anything to do with being politically correct. We have been conditioned to see things thru racial eyes and to expect that the next thing you hear about something like this it that the big,powerful,mean white guy did a colored person wrong again. To anticipate the next bit of media coverage is not to say you agree or disagree with what is being presented. Racial overtones is the next logical step.
If the race issue weren't brought up in every instance possible we would have less racial tension than we do now.It seems some enjoy keeping racial tension on the front burner,probably so they can keep their job/positions. 



Wade


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Would the OP like to share your thoughts on the subject?


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

nchobbyfarm said:


> It has been unanimous that the attacker is a criminal and idiot, why does he also have to be a racist? One article never mentions race and I had formed an opinion immediately without knowing the race. Have we been conditioned that things just being a crime are not enough, we must try to make the crime worse if one person is X, Y, or Z. Does it make us feel better to have a politically correct category to fit each crime into or shouldn't it just be enough to have the person charged on the provable facts without trying to guess his motivation?





> It has been unanimous that the attacker is a criminal and idiot, why does he also have to be a racist?


Disagree. One post accused him of being a Conservative. 


Since we all live in the real world, let's get serious - if it's even possible, any more.

Would a white guy get so excited, to see another white guy, pack a gun? 

Doubtful

Would a black guy get so excited, to see a white guy, or even another black guy, pack a gun? 

Very doubtful.

This is not rocket science.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

> Would a white guy get so excited, to see another white guy, pack a gun?
> 
> Doubtful
> 
> ...


Depends entirely on the individual guys. Such blanket statements are ludicrous...and racist.

I tend to think race may have been a factor with this particular guy (just a hunch...maybe demonstrating a bit of my own prejudice) but nchobbyfarm's point is still valid. Whether the vigilante's perception was affected by the race of the victim or not, his assault was an assault either way.


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## wogglebug (May 22, 2004)

> *Would be hero or out of control vigilante?*


Both.
He's a legend in his own lunchtime, 
a macho-man in his mind, and out of his mind.

Every bit as much an out-of-control violent racist criminal as those who go around coward-punching innocent and unsuspecting victims for "amusement", although his motivation may have been different - self-aggrandisement rather than self-amusement.

I'd be interested to see the results of the blood test that should have been made after his arrest. No-one would do this sort of thing if they were thinking normally.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

nchobbyfarm said:


> Would the OP like to share your thoughts on the subject?


Sure. My main thought is that I'm glad no one was seriously hurt. I think the attacker was an idiot. I do think that race probably paid a role. No proof, only my speculation. I do think the gun carrier needs to rethink his actions. At the very least he needs to become more vigi&#322;ant so that he is not attacked and disarmed so easily in the future. I posted links to both articles because I find it interesting the dichotomy of how this story was reported by the news outlets. 
Vigilante is a term fraught with negative emotion. Would be hero is more benign and almost seems to forgive or justify the action. 

Now a follow up question for you concealed carriers. You're standing in the Wal mart check out minding your own business when you hear this scuffle start behind you. You turn to see two people struggling. They momentarily pull apart and one reaches inside his jacket and starts to pull out a gun. What do you do?


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Since I have no idea how it started per your description, I place my had on my weapon so I could easily draw. I back away to cover as quickly as possible without losing my defensive ability and I stay out of it unless or until the person with the gun tries to threaten me or others that I know where not involved! You must have complete knowledge of the situation or you must be directly threatened to get involved. Pulling your weapon without knowing the full story is a fast way for you to end up in jail!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

plowjockey said:


> Disagree. One post accused him of being a Conservative.
> .


Which post?


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

mmoetc said:


> Now a follow up question for you concealed carriers. You're standing in the Wal mart check out minding your own business when you hear this scuffle start behind you. You turn to see two people struggling. They momentarily pull apart and one reaches inside his jacket and starts to pull out a gun. What do you do?


Get to a safe place or cover, call 911 or tell someone else to call. Watch what is going on and be a good (alive) witness. Be ready to defend myself and family. If, I can help it, it will not get into the middle of a gunfight. Someone will probably get hurt or killed. The best way to stay safe is to avoid trouble, but be prepared to meet it, *if* need be.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

> Now a follow up question for you concealed carriers. You're standing in the Wal mart check out minding your own business when you hear this scuffle start behind you. You turn to see two people struggling. They momentarily pull apart and one reaches inside his jacket and starts to pull out a gun. What do you do?


Get to cover and stay out of it. Too easy to choose the wrong side like the people who jumped in to help this vigilante disarm the law-abiding citizen.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

AngieM2 said:


> Please put a line or two about what each link you post is about.
> 
> Most people will not click on blind, hit and run link postings.


You keep asking but seems like nobody listens. I skip a lot of posts just because the poster gives NO information about the link. Only clicked on this one because I suspected it was about the "concealed but not concealed" gun incident.

As for the incident, the supposed do-gooder was just lucky he didn't get shot. The armed man wasn't waving the gun around, didn't have it in his hand, wasn't threatening people, and was carrying legally. If someone had tackled me for carrying I would own everything that person ever thought about owning.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I cant see how, its a simple assault. I doubt if you would get anything net.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Tackle someone with a messed up back and neck and see how you fare in the court system.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

mmoetc said:


> Now a follow up question for you concealed carriers. You're standing in the Wal mart check out minding your own business when you hear this scuffle start behind you. You turn to see two people struggling. They momentarily pull apart and one reaches inside his jacket and starts to pull out a gun. What do you do?


That is a good question. One of the many classes I took on concealed carry was 2 days on shoot/don't shoot decisions. A real life scenario I remember in particular, you drive up behind a black guy who is standing beside a cop car firing into the window. what do you do?

The black guy was a off duty cop who had been jumped and his car was being stolen. 

As someone else pointed out, if you don't know the whole story, you stay the heck out of it. Get to a safe place to observe so you can protect yourself and others. Call 911 and wait. 

Another real life scenario was a small woman with a gun begging for help against a large man. It was a set up and she was trying to get someone to shoot her husband/boyfriend. 

The FBI has a computer/movie based training system at Quantico, VA that uses many scenarios to help train agents in fire/don't fire decisions. Years ago a reporter went thru it and was repeatedly killed when he shot too slow and killed innocents when he fired too fast. All it proved is that cops have a really tough job and the easy answers found in your fave movies are often not what you'll find in the streets...or the frozen food aisle at Walmart.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

DEKE01 said:


> The FBI has a computer/movie based training system at Quantico, VA that uses many scenarios to help train agents in fire/don't fire decisions. Years ago a reporter went thru it and was repeatedly killed when he shot too slow and killed innocents when he fired too fast. All it proved is that cops have a really tough job and the easy answers found in your fave movies are often not what you'll find in the streets...or the frozen food aisle at Walmart.



When I was in training at Quantico for MSG Battalion, we went through a simulated shooting exercise. It had several scenarios and I can tell you, most of us failed on one aspect or another. 

They had a video of a woman standing near the front door of the Embassy fumbling through her purse for her ID and such. Next thing you know she pulls out a revolver and shoots you. I know that 90 percent of us failed on that. 

It is difficult to put yourself in the scenario. Was race playing a part? Perhaps or perhaps not. I couldn't answer that question and I only know one person who could.

If I saw two gentlemen fighting and one suddenly pulls a firearm, I would do as others have said. Find cover, maintain some sense of calm and ensure that those around me (family, friends, strangers) are safe while also making a tactical decision on how the situation looks on my end. 

I would hate to take another life, so before I even think about pulling that firearm, I have so many checks to make on my list.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

There are things in life that are legal or you have "the right", but stupid just the same.
This time the guy had a permit. What would you be saying if people stood by and watched a guy arm himself in the parking lot, then walk into the store and start killing people? It was the passivity that allowed the gunman in the commuter train shoot 9 people a few years ago. 
Just as I, as a White guy, have no business walking around after dark in parts of Detroit, it seems foolish that a Black guy would openly arm himself in a parking lot. We each have our rights, but still foolish. Pedestrians have the right of way, but I'm not stepping in front of a car to assert my rights. Sailboats have the right of way over motorized vessels, but I'm not going to chart a line that intersects a speed boat.

Since I see no reason for a person to strap on a pistol to go into WalMart in broad daylight, I think the legal gun holder was stupid. For a Black guy to do it smells like provocation. 

Too often in today's society, no one wants to act, sheeple. We applaud those that do step into harms way. We regret the loss of lives because no one reacted. "Let's Roll" became a hero's call.
Last year 370 people died in Detroit from guns. Nearly all the shooters were Black males between 15 and 28 years of age. Is it racial profiling if you see a young Black man with a gun to expect violence? 

You see your rights to bear arms infringed upon. I see chalk outlines on the sidewalk.


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## Guest123 (Oct 10, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> One can't be a Conservative and do something stupid.



All one has to do is look at almost any current politician to realize that "stupid" is not an exclusive trait of either party!!


I am curious why some automatically assume it was racially motivated? I am not saying there is not racism in the US, but why do some automatically go there without even knowing the whole story?


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

cranbrook said:


> There are things in life that are legal or you have "the right", but stupid just the same.
> This time the guy had a permit. What would you be saying if people stood by and watched a guy arm himself in the parking lot, then walk into the store and start killing people? It was the passivity that allowed the gunman in the commuter train shoot 9 people a few years ago.
> Just as I, as a White guy, have no business walking around after dark in parts of Detroit, it seems foolish that a Black guy would openly arm himself in a parking lot. We each have our rights, but still foolish. Pedestrians have the right of way, but I'm not stepping in front of a car to assert my rights. Sailboats have the right of way over motorized vessels, but I'm not going to chart a line that intersects a speed boat.
> 
> ...



Just because you see chalk outlines, does that give you the right to infringe on my & others Right(s)?


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

cranbrook said:


> Since I see no reason for a person to strap on a pistol to go into WalMart in broad daylight, I think the legal gun holder was stupid. For a Black guy to do it smells like provocation.


Anti freedom and racist in a single blow. Well done!

I wear my gun everywhere but the bed and the swimming pool. I HOPE there is no need for me to have it, but I wear it just in case you and I are wrong. People have been killed in Walmarts, grocery stores, convenience stores, parking lots, and many other places. AZ Rep Giffords was shot in a parking lot. 

If you told me there was a place I needed to wear a gun, I wouldn't go there if at all possible. Most gun carrying people are not looking for trouble, we are just trying to be the winners if trouble finds us. 

And the guy's race has nothing to do with it. Period.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

beowoulf90 said:


> Just because you see chalk outlines, does that give you the right to infringe on my & others Right(s)?


OK, let's put it out there. Let's not ignore the Elephant in the room. In a community where neighbors look out for neighbors and strangers stick out, crime is low and anyone that wants to strap on a side iron doesn't raise an eye brow. 

But the world is a different place in the City. Places where McDonalds puts your fun meal on a bullet-proof shove through tray. I'm talking about inside, not drive up. Seeing someone with a pistol is time to seek cover. If you think the lives of others are at risk, you take them down. But that takes a great amount of bravery, few have. Some people run out of a burning building. Others look for victims they can save. Sometimes that costs them their lives.

Statistically, Black males, unemployed, not in school, between 17 and 27 years of age represent less than 1/2 of 1% of this country's population. That tiny group is caught and convicted of 75% of the violent crimes. In an effort to show I'm not a racist, I should ignore those facts?

Can an Arab student carry a pressure cooker in a backpack in a crowded area? Sure, it's legal, just not smart. It has become more common to read about a man that entered his wife's place of employment and shoots her. 

Many were upset with the retired Cop that shot a man, in a theatre, he thought was attacking him. No one could justify a man taking a gun into a theatre. Yet you can justify taking a gun into WalMart?

If I see a Skinhead with two sleeves of Gang tats packing heat or a person wearing a Clan headpiece, stuff iron into his waistband, I'm not going to think he is there to buy his wife lotion. 

Perhaps, we, as a society got into this mess by being tolerant in situations that common sense says otherwise. I want you to be able to own and carry a firearm, but I'm going to be tempted to drag you down if I see it going into WalMart.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

cranbrook said:


> There are things in life that are legal or you have "the right", but stupid just the same.
> This time the guy had a permit. What would you be saying if people stood by and watched a guy arm himself in the parking lot, then walk into the store and start killing people? It was the passivity that allowed the gunman in the commuter train shoot 9 people a few years ago.
> Just as I, as a White guy, have no business walking around after dark in parts of Detroit, it seems foolish that a Black guy would openly arm himself in a parking lot. We each have our rights, but still foolish. Pedestrians have the right of way, but I'm not stepping in front of a car to assert my rights. Sailboats have the right of way over motorized vessels, but I'm not going to chart a line that intersects a speed boat.
> 
> ...


Wow...because many black men are criminals, the law-abiding black men shouldn't take measures to defend themselves because it might be seen the wrong way? That's insane.

And this didn't happen in Detroit, so that's completely irrelevant. But the population of Detroit is 80% black so the fact that most murders there are committed by black men wouldn't tell us a whole lot even if it was somehow relevant.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

cranbrook said:


> OK, let's put it out there. Let's not ignore the Elephant in the room. In a community where neighbors look out for neighbors and strangers stick out, crime is low and anyone that wants to strap on a side iron doesn't raise an eye brow.
> 
> But the world is a different place in the City. Places where McDonalds puts your fun meal on a bullet-proof shove through tray. I'm talking about inside, not drive up. Seeing someone with a pistol is time to seek cover. If you think the lives of others are at risk, you take them down. But that takes a great amount of bravery, few have. Some people run out of a burning building. Others look for victims they can save. Sometimes that costs them their lives.
> 
> ...


And even more red herrings...none of that has anything to do with this one black man who did nothing wrong and was assaulted for it.

And I'd venture a guess that this particular black man was employed (not that you can tell by looking at someone) and over the age of 27, so he probably didn't even fit your racial profile. ETA: He was a 62-year-old grandfather...real threatening....


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

I retired out of law enforcement. I have a lifetime concealed carry permit.As an officer I was required to cart 24/7. Now I carry if I feel the need.I have seen at least 1000 people in civilian clothing that were carrying. Sometimes I was carrying and sometimes not. Some were in suit and tie and some were Grungy. I made no distinction between the two,or what race they were.I would keep an extra eye on the person's demeanor and it doesn't take that long to determine if it's an off duty cop,someone working undercover,just another civilian or a dirt bag.Out of say 1000 there were only 3-4 people that made me leery.They just didn't feel right. 
There are a lot of indications a person will give you if you know how to read their body language.It is much wiser to observe and be prepared to act than to act out of haste.99% of the time you'll be wrong,just like this guy was.
Other than that,I have been quite surprised at the number of people here on HT that carry on a regular basis.If you feel the need to carry 24/7 either you are paranoid(justified or not) or you need to move to a safer place to live.And I'm not talking about having a gun handy to drop a coyote.I rarely carry anymore away from home.Only if I know I'll have to go into an area where I feel the need but, I do everything I can to avoid putting myself in that situation.
Now don't take me wrong,I'm 100% pro gun but along with that is responsible actions.
Just my thoughts.

Wade


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

> Other than that,I have been quite surprised at the number of people here on HT that carry on a regular basis.If you feel the need to carry 24/7 either you are paranoid(justified or not) or you need to move to a safer place to live.And I'm not talking about having a gun handy to drop a coyote.I rarely carry anymore away from home.Only if I know I'll have to go into an area where I feel the need but, I do everything I can to avoid putting myself in that situation.


Personally, I'm with you...I rarely carry. But I don't think people who carry all the time are paranoid...just prepared. You never know when something is going to happen, and things tend to happen when you're not expecting them. Better to have a gun and not need it than to need one and not have it. For me, it's just laziness not to carry, but hopefully I'll never have to regret it.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

cranbrook said:


> OK, let's put it out there. Let's not ignore the Elephant in the room. In a community where neighbors look out for neighbors and strangers stick out, crime is low and anyone that wants to strap on a side iron doesn't raise an eye brow.
> 
> But the world is a different place in the City. Places where McDonalds puts your fun meal on a bullet-proof shove through tray. I'm talking about inside, not drive up. Seeing someone with a pistol is time to seek cover. If you think the lives of others are at risk, you take them down. But that takes a great amount of bravery, few have. Some people run out of a burning building. Others look for victims they can save. Sometimes that costs them their lives.
> 
> ...


There is nothing wrong with carrying in walmarts , as you can see by the video-even people that will attack others-go to walmarts.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

1shotwade said:


> .If you feel the need to carry 24/7 either you are paranoid(justified or not) or you need to move to a safer place to live.


wrong and this just shows another cop who doesn't get it. 

Why were you supposed to carry 24/7 when you were on the force? Because you were supposed to be prepared to save yourself and protect others. You know what, that's my job as well. I don't get paid to do it, but that's my job. 

I put my gun on when I'm putting my wallet, knife, and keys in my pants. It's part of getting dressed. It doesn't matter where I'm going because during the day it might be the farm where one day last summer I dodged 2 mother bears and 5 cubs within 1000 feet, or it might be I end up in town to run chores, where the ONLY time I've ever even thought about drawing my gun was to walk into the courthouse or post office.


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

DEKE01 said:


> wrong and this just shows another cop who doesn't get it.
> 
> Why were you supposed to carry 24/7 when you were on the force? Because you were supposed to be prepared to save yourself and protect others. You know what, that's my job as well. I don't get paid to do it, but that's my job.
> 
> I put my gun on when I'm putting my wallet, knife, and keys in my pants. It's part of getting dressed. It doesn't matter where I'm going because during the day it might be the farm where one day last summer I dodged 2 mother bears and 5 cubs within 1000 feet, or it might be I end up in town to run chores, where the ONLY time I've ever even thought about drawing my gun was to walk into the courthouse or post office.




Well maybe you're right,I don't know.I can't know what your intent is,The need to carry all the time. Seems it's the "thing to do" now days. What I do know that I don't get is why someone would subject themselves and their loved ones to living in a place that is so unsafe that you feel the need to carry a gun with you everywhere you go!
Personally,I wish every rational person on earth was carrying a gun but the key word there is rational.To me it is not rational to carry a gun 24/7 without any reason except that "I can".
But then you are probably right.I'm just another ex-cop that don't get it!


Wade


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

jtbrandt said:


> Wow...because many black men are criminals, the law-abiding black men shouldn't take measures to defend themselves because it might be seen the wrong way? That's insane.
> 
> And this didn't happen in Detroit, so that's completely irrelevant. But the population of Detroit is 80% black so the fact that most murders there are committed by black men wouldn't tell us a whole lot even if it was somehow relevant.


Most murders NATIONALLY. 1/2 of 1% of the population, a very specific and somewhat identifiable group commit 75% of the violent crimes NATIONALLY. That a city with a somewhat higher percentage of this specific group could maintain the title:"Murder Capital of the US" should come to no one's surprise. Unless you avoid racial profiling.

It is legal for an Arab to have a 5 pound block of clay and red and blue wires poked into it in his airplane carry-on. But common sense dictates otherwise.
A Black man should be aware of the staggering crime statistics involving young Black men and enjoy his legal freedom, but employ a greater sense of concealment. I support his right to conceal carry, but hitching up his getalong in a Walmart parking lot, so that anyone in the store looking out would see it is, IMHO asking for conflict.

Recently, I have seen people that go to a park and smoke tobacco in a bong. When Cops show up they have their phone cameras out whining how they are being hassled by the Cops and haven't broken any laws. Another guy, just north of Detroit, pacing back and forth in front of a store that had been robbed several times recently. He held his right hand inside his coat. Store owner called 911. When Cops arrived, he made a big deal out of being questioned because he was Black. I see activity purposely suspicious, then when Cops are called, the Pigs are picking on us because we are Black.

If I have a license to carry a concealed weapon, nobody should see me strapping it on. Key word: concealed. I don't want you to see mine and I don't want to see yours, until it is needed.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

> What I do know that I don't get is why someone would subject themselves and their loved ones to living in a place that is so unsafe that you feel the need to carry a gun with you everywhere you go!


I don't get why you would subject yourself to a job that was so unsafe that you were required to carry a gun with you everywhere you went!


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

jtbrandt said:


> I don't get why you would subject yourself to a job that was so unsafe that you were required to carry a gun with you everywhere you went!



Good point. I guess I'm just not too bright.


Wade


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

cranbrook said:


> Most murders NATIONALLY. 1/2 of 1% of the population, a very specific and somewhat identifiable group commit 75% of the violent crimes NATIONALLY. That a city with a somewhat higher percentage of this specific group could maintain the title:"Murder Capital of the US" should come to no one's surprise. Unless you avoid racial profiling.
> 
> It is legal for an Arab to have a 5 pound block of clay and red and blue wires poked into it in his airplane carry-on. But common sense dictates otherwise.
> A Black man should be aware of the staggering crime statistics involving young Black men and enjoy his legal freedom, but employ a greater sense of concealment. I support his right to conceal carry, but hitching up his getalong in a Walmart parking lot, so that anyone in the store looking out would see it is, IMHO asking for conflict.
> ...


And still none of that is relevant. This man didn't fit your racial profile of those young black men who commit 75% of violent crimes, so it's pointless to keep bringing that up.



> If I have a license to carry a concealed weapon, nobody should see me strapping it on. Key word: concealed. I don't want you to see mine and I don't want to see yours, until it is needed.


This is the only part of anything you've posted in this thread that is even remotely relevant. You may be right...the man may have made a mistake by letting his gun be seen. But that doesn't justify tackling him. The mere sight of a gun is not threatening.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

1shotwade said:


> Good point. I guess I'm just not too bright.
> 
> 
> Wade


I wouldn't say that...just different strokes for different folks. You don't feel the need to carry...that's cool. Other people want to be prepared for the off chance that something might happen, not necessarily because they live in a dangerous place, but because the world is unpredictable.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I think it is just fine for me to be able to carry a concealed weapon, but I'm not sure I trust the rest of you gun nuts.

What if the vigilante had pulled his gun and asked the guy if he had a permit to carry?


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

cranbrook said:


> I think it is just fine for me to be able to carry a concealed weapon, but I'm not sure I trust the rest of you gun nuts.


You sound like a liberal...although they usually like to have someone else carry their guns for them.



> What if the vigilante had pulled his gun and asked the guy if he had a permit to carry?


Then the vigilante would be in deeper doo doo than he is now.


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

Well, actually,the only reason I got into law enforcement was because I was working in a saw mill as an off bearer for $2.70 an hour when the state minimum was $3.35. I had assisted the local town marshal in subduing a criminal outside my house one night and after talking for a while he ran a check on me and came back a couple weeks later and offered me a job paying $4.00 an hour. If you have ever worked as an off bearer in a busy sawmill you will understand my choice.
And just for the record,it was a terrible mistake. It made me a very cold person with respect to others and their intent.I wish I had never done it and I bailed out as soon as I could lock my time in and now after many years I am finally becoming a more tender hearted, kind person. You really wouldn't wanted to know me back then. I'm not saying all cops are like that but it wasn't good for me.
I guess all I was really trying to say is that we should try and reduce our contact with bad situations. That's the best way to avoid trouble. That's what I do instead of carrying just in case. many times it works against you to have a weapon with you when in my experiences you almost never need it. Even on the street nightly I only had to draw my weapon twice and never had to use it.Situations can be de-escalated most of the time without the use of a weapon. 
This is part of what homesteading means to me. Locating myself and loved ones in a place that you don't have to always look over your shoulder.

Wade


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

cranbrook said:


> I think it is just fine for me to be able to carry a concealed weapon, but I'm not sure I trust the rest of you gun nuts.
> 
> What if the vigilante had pulled his gun and asked the guy if he had a permit to carry?


If the vigilante had a permit to carry, he would have to be educated well enough-to get that permit.

So are you ok with attacking a tiny woman like me because you might see my weapon , they are hard to hide for some of us. That bulge near my bra messing with your head?


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

> Even on the street nightly I only had to draw my weapon twice and never had to use it.


But before going out those two nights, you didn't know whether or not you would need your weapon...if you only carried it when you thought you were going to need it, you might not have had it with you when you did need it...and technically I think drawing the weapon counts as "using" it.



> This is part of what homesteading means to me. Locating myself and loved ones in a place that you don't have to always look over your shoulder.


No place is without risks.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

1shotwade said:


> Well maybe you're right,I don't know.I can't know what your intent is,The need to carry all the time. Seems it's the "thing to do" now days. What I do know that I don't get is why someone would subject themselves and their loved ones to living in a place that is so unsafe that you feel the need to carry a gun with you everywhere you go!
> Personally,I wish every rational person on earth was carrying a gun but the key word there is rational.To me it is not rational to carry a gun 24/7 without any reason except that "I can".
> But then you are probably right.I'm just another ex-cop that don't get it!
> 
> ...


It really isn't the thing to do. Well less than 1% of the general population carries on a regular basis. And I don't know why you keep saying, "without any reason." The reason is to protect self and others in the very unlikely event I find a clear reason to do so. 

I've only every had to face down a gunman once. It was a shot gun held by a guy so drunk I could wrestle it away from him and knock him down. It was at a party and I had no reason to believe I would be in danger. I'm not strong, big, or tough; I'm too old and arthritic. If the next guy isn't stupid drunk, I might not win unless I have an equalizer.

I also carry a fire extinguisher in my truck. I've never had to put out a fire concerning my own equipment, but once I happened upon two burning vehicles that got caught up in a brush fire. I used up the 10 gal of water on my truck when another driver stopped with an extinguisher. He slowed for the fire long enough for the fire dept to show up and save one of the vehicles. Lesson learned. Now I'm better prepared for one more thing. It's my civic duty. Like carrying a gun, the fire extinguisher is part of my good neighbor civic duty. In a small way, it might be like what you felt when you decided to become a cop. 

BTW - thank you for your public service. If you see me berating cops, it's because I'm very anti bad cop. I really appreciate the good cops and I'll assume you were one even if you don't understand concealed carry.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

1shotwade said:


> Locating myself and loved ones in a place that you don't have to always look over your shoulder.
> 
> Wade


You may not always have to look, but now days it is best to take a gander every now and then. Bad people have a way of finding good folks to harm, even way out in the country. Evil will always look for easy prey, no matter where you are. Yes you are insulated better, but you still need to be looking.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

cranbrook said:


> OK, let's put it out there. Let's not ignore the Elephant in the room. In a community where neighbors look out for neighbors and strangers stick out, crime is low and anyone that wants to strap on a side iron doesn't raise an eye brow.
> 
> But the world is a different place in the City. Places where McDonalds puts your fun meal on a bullet-proof shove through tray. I'm talking about inside, not drive up. Seeing someone with a pistol is time to seek cover. If you think the lives of others are at risk, you take them down. But that takes a great amount of bravery, few have. Some people run out of a burning building. Others look for victims they can save. Sometimes that costs them their lives.
> 
> ...


So lets quit dancing and have you answer a direct question with a direct answer..

You are saying things are different in the "City"..I agree
But why do you think you have the power or authority to stop me from availing myself of my Constitutional Right(s)?

I contend that if you have that power or authority, then I have the power and authority to take your Rights from you. 
I could determine that the best way to preserve my Rights is to build a retaining wall around your "City". Think the movie Escape form New York.

Thus I get to keep my Rights and silence a lot of the socialists/communists who are forever trying to violate the Constitution and my Rights.

So be very careful what you wish for! You may just get it...


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Possum Belly said:


> You may not always have to look, but now days it is best to take a gander every now and then. Bad people have a way of finding good folks to harm, even way out in the country. Evil will always look for easy prey, no matter where you are. Yes you are insulated better, but you still need to be looking.



Situational awareness is always a good thing regardless of location, be it city, suburb, rural..

It's just a matter of how many times you have to "check" the situation.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

1shotwade said:


> I retired out of law enforcement. I have a lifetime concealed carry permit.As an officer I was required to cart 24/7. Now I carry if I feel the need.I have seen at least 1000 people in civilian clothing that were carrying. Sometimes I was carrying and sometimes not. Some were in suit and tie and some were Grungy. I made no distinction between the two,or what race they were.I would keep an extra eye on the person's demeanor and it doesn't take that long to determine if it's an off duty cop,someone working undercover,just another civilian or a dirt bag.Out of say 1000 there were only 3-4 people that made me leery.They just didn't feel right.
> There are a lot of indications a person will give you if you know how to read their body language.It is much wiser to observe and be prepared to act than to act out of haste.99% of the time you'll be wrong,just like this guy was.
> Other than that,I have been quite surprised at the number of people here on HT that carry on a regular basis.If you feel the need to carry 24/7 either you are paranoid(justified or not) or you need to move to a safer place to live.And I'm not talking about having a gun handy to drop a coyote.I rarely carry anymore away from home.Only if I know I'll have to go into an area where I feel the need but, I do everything I can to avoid putting myself in that situation.
> Now don't take me wrong,I'm 100% pro gun but along with that is responsible actions.
> ...


Do you have a fire extinguisher? Why are you paranoid?
Do you carry a spare tire in your vehicle? Why are you paranoid?
Do you have basic tools in your vehicle? extra fan belt? 

So I guess some are paranoid (as you call it) in different ways.
You seem to think those of us who carry are paranoid, afraid, what ever you want to call it. 
I say we are just better prepared for different situations than those who don't carry.
So I have to question why you want to "slam" those of us who carry.
You have determined through situational awareness that you don't need to carry 24/7. Yet you call those of us who do "paranoid"

Yup, I really do have to question your motivation..


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

cranbrook said:


> I think it is just fine for me to be able to carry a concealed weapon, but I'm not sure I trust the rest of you gun nuts.
> 
> What if the vigilante had pulled his gun and asked the guy if he had a permit to carry?



Well the vigilante would be in violation of his permit to carry in most states.
The permit holder has to be able to show fear for their life or limb or the lives of others. Just spotting someone with a firearm isn't justifiable cause to fear for your life.
So he would be wrong again.. 

Funny how those of us who carry are called paranoid. Yet the only ones committing any violent acts are those who don't carry or hate the fact that our Constitution allows us to carry, & own firearms.

It seems those carrying aren't committing any crimes, but they are being attacked.. 
The hypocrisy is funny and ironic!


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

I figured I should come back and thank those who answered my question. You all gave reasoned, thought out, well planned responses. I only hope that all concealed carriers are as well trained and reasonable as you all. I do fear however that Mike Tyson may be correct when he states that everybody's got a plan until they get hit. Adrenaline and emotion have ruined many a plan.


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

OK,Maybe I can help put this thing to rest. After rereading my post it really didn't sound good. It wasn't meant as a put down which seems to be how it was taken.The only point I was trying to bring out was that a weapon is very rarely needed and if you live where it is the I wouldn't live there. The health and safety of my family is too important to have to worry about such things.I'd just get out.
I look at this guy who has made up his mind that this black man was a threat and tackles him. If he were carrying he wouldn't tackle him,he would draw on him. The black guy minding his own business has a gun pointed at him and wants to defend himself and there you go.White guy shoots black guy in walmart.
The guy that tackled the other was not rational. If he had a gun he would not have been rational. There is no back ground check for rational. Rational gets lost sometimes when you're looking down the barrel of a gun.The black guy would more than likely not been rational at that point.
As for people on this site I would assume you are much more rational than the general public simply by the nature of homesteaders and their beliefs and experience for the most part with weapons. It makes sense to carry if you feel the need but too many times people escalate situations by over reacting just as this guy did and the outcome isn't always good.Whether you agree with me or not I am still entitled to my opinion even if I can't properly express it. To those I offerded, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intent. I'm through talking about this. If you feel the need to trash me go for it but I'm done with this.
Have a good time with it. Unbolt the deadbolt Martin,I'll be right behind you!

Wade


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Wade, you parrot the same old opinions of the gun banners over the last few decades. They thought it there was CCW people would be shooting each other in the streets. Vigilantes would be running wild. Can't have legal carry in bars because drunks will be shooting up the place. Bad guys will get a CCW so they can more easily rob banks and convenience stores. 

But the facts are that less than 1% of the population has CCW and less than 1% of those folks have committed felonies and the majority of those felonies are associated with accidentally carrying in the wrong place, like I almost forgot once and had to stop myself at the door of a post office, or when one crosses a state border and suddenly go from legal to illegal. 

Yes, we can find the occasional horror story, like George Zimmerman, or the black man in the OP. But you are far more likely to be shot by a cop than a CCW holder. CCW holders hit the intended target, IIRC, ~70% of the time and cops are under 30%. 

As to being seen holstering in a parking lot, it has happened to me. The only reason I have to re-holster in a parking lot is when I have returned from a poker room, post office, or court house where it is illegal for me to carry. I try, but can't guarantee 100% concealment at that moment. Don't blame me for the gov't imposing upon me a violation of the constitution.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

It seems the general consensus here by the anti gunners and those who oppose concealed carry is:
That those who carry only do so so we can shoot someone, or live out some wild west shoot out.. 

Well that would be the furthest thing from most of our minds.. 
I for one have already seen more death and destruction then I wanted and really don't want to see more. 
But I won't allow anyone to try and harm me and mine without a fight. If I can get out of a situation with out pulling my firearm, then that makes me happy. But it is there if needed. The last thing I want is to have to shoot someone, but won't hesitate to defend me and mine. If that means I die, then so be it. I've already faced death before and have cheated it. I will at some point have to pay for that. Hopefully not for a long time, so I'm not going out looking for some "wild west shoot out", in fact just the opposite. 
But again I won't allow, some scum bag, to harm me and mine if I can stop it. Even if it means I have to take their life. I'm not some hero, I'm only a man who loves his wife and kids and will defend them to my death if need be. 
Remember one other thing, I'm not going out there looking for the criminal(s), but it seems they are looking for me and mine (as victims). Their mistake, not mine.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

I wonder what the anti carry crowd would think if they were sitting in one of these fast food restaurants with their family and one of these events were to take place? Do you think they would wish they had a gun? If they were not armed they did not have much of a chance. Someone with a concealed carry permit could have made the difference here. It can happen anywhere and the people sitting at the McDonald's eating their meals peacefully did not think it could happen there because they would have chosen another place to eat that day...........but they were wrong. Dead wrong!!!! And they paid a price for being there and not being prepared to confront evil.
I want to know that I at least would have HAD A CHANCE TO SURVIVE. 
Come on, read the entire story at the link below. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_McDonald%27s_massacre


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

well said, Beowolf and Possum. 

When we are told we are paranoid and shouldn't go places that we would need a gun, the anti-gunners never tell us where those safe places are. The safe place isn't a department store, a restaurant, the movies, post office, school, or a parking lot...where is it we can go that is safe? I fully recognize the odds of me ever needing to use my gun to protect innocents is very low, but it costs me next to nothing to be prepared, financially or otherwise, so why not.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

DEKE01 said:


> well said, Beowolf and Possum.
> 
> When we are told we are paranoid and shouldn't go places that we would need a gun, the anti-gunners never tell us where those safe places are. The safe place isn't a department store, a restaurant, the movies, post office, school, or a parking lot...where is it we can go that is safe? I fully recognize the odds of me ever needing to use my gun to protect innocents is very low, but it costs me next to nothing to be prepared, financially or otherwise, so why not.


If there were 100% guaranteed safe places, I doubt I would carry. But there are none. Not even military bases.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Possum Belly said:


> If there were 100% guaranteed safe places, I doubt I would carry. But there are none. Not even military bases.


Yep, the gov't disarms our soldiers while they are on base...I guess the gov't figures soldiers can't be trusted with guns. :hair

But there is nothing to stop a bad guy from carrying on base and killing 13 soldiers in the name of Allah.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Guns were banned from school grounds at the sites of recent school shootings. 

So to stir the pot, since open carry was legal in the state and Wal-Mart allows open carry in their stores, what if the firearm had been in the carriers holster out and visible? Would it then have been okay for the tackler to have tackled the carrier? 

As for carrying 24/7, yep, I've done it. Stupid dog owners that have territorial, anti-social, free range dogs made carrying a requirement. All it takes is some irresponsible person being in an area to cause said area to be unsafe.


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## wogglebug (May 22, 2004)

DEKE01 said:


> well said, Beowolf and Possum.
> 
> When we are told we are paranoid and shouldn't go places that we would need a gun, the anti-gunners never tell us where those safe places are. The safe place isn't a department store, a restaurant, the movies, post office, school, or a parking lot...where is it we can go that is safe?


Yea, verily!

One of the things we know for a fact is that some places you NEED to be carrying a firearm to be able to defend yourself and others.

Some of those places where it has been proven, demonstrated, that law-abiding citizens need to go and also need to be able to defend themselves against the law-breakers, need to be allowed to carry firearms, are schools, post offices, court buildings, police stations, military bases and premises, law and medical premises, hospitals, department stores, 7-11 stores, service stations, restaurants, movie houses, and parking lots.


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