# For those who are hesitant about the covid vaccine



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

This article should really convince you that you need to get it despite your unaddressed concerns;
(SARCASM)









Psychology of Pandemics: Why some people are hesitant to get the COVID-19 vaccine and how to talk about it


A recent poll found about, "one in three Americans say they definitely or probably won't get the COVID-19 vaccine."




www.10tv.com





Yeh, like telling me I am fearful and just don't trust science is going to change my mind.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

_"The core of it really is that a lot of people just don't trust science because they don't understand it," she said. "There's a lot of big words thrown around, they don't really know what it all means, and so that just brings fear for them." Dr Meyer._

I would so love to spend a Thanksgiving with drinks and this guy.


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

Medical science doesn't always get things right.









Thalidomide scandal - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





I'd say it's absolutely right to be concerned about this vaccine. Once injected, you can't get it out after all.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I don't want to explain again. I understand big words. I understand science. I understand basic immunology.

I am not getting the injection. The holier than thou folks who think THEY know everything may not actually know everything.


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## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

Wow, condescending much, Dr Meyer?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I wonder if the doctor understands what experimental means.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

MoonRiver said:


> I wonder if the doctor understands what *experimental* means.


That's a big word he doesn't understand.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I don't want to explain again. I understand big words. I understand science. I understand basic immunology.
> 
> I am not getting the injection. The holier than thou folks who think THEY know everything may not actually know everything.


I understand big words, science and basic immunology as well. I also have eyeballs that work and the ability to read the remarks friends of mine who have had both doses of this vaccine are posting. I have never heard of anyone I know having these kinds of reactions to a vaccine. I'll pass thanks.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

SLFarmMI said:


> I understand big words, science and basic immunology as well. I also have eyeballs that work and the ability to read the remarks friends of mine who have had both doses of this vaccine are posting. I have never heard of anyone I know having these kinds of reactions to a vaccine. I'll pass thanks.


I think the J&J is worth considering.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> I think the J&J is worth considering.


I may look into that one but I'd have to see data from any long term side effects before I put any new vaccine into my body.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

i thought it was supposed to be my turn last week but it's the 26th march for us in dartmouth. as i've mentioned before i'm going to pass. my son is not too happy about my decision but nevertheless it is my decision. i know some people who are scared they will be let go from their job or not hired back on if they don't take it and others are afraid their doctors wont treat them . all kinds of things like that. ~Georgia


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

a) Science is not to be trusted....They prove that more with each passing day. The "peers" don't allow anything that doesn't agree with their own opinion to get published, and nobody offers for publication anything that will prevent them from getting more research funding. Follow the money....

2] "To vaccinate or not to vaccinate" is no longer the question...We are on the verge (if not already there) of having achieved herd immunity naturally. A few more or less vaccinees won't make any difference.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

The more they push and call me stupid and ignorant because I hesitate about it, the less I want to get it.

Mom gets her second shot tomorrow. She didn't want it but a step-daughter signed her up when the step registered for hers. Mom has been sick for a few weeks with what sounds like covid. I am very afraid for her. I told her to call me if she starts feeling bad and I will drop everything to come take care of her.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> The more they push and call me stupid and ignorant because I hesitate about it, the less I want to get it.
> 
> Mom gets her second shot tomorrow. She didn't want it but a step-daughter signed her up when the step registered for hers. Mom has been sick for a few weeks with what sounds like covid. I am very afraid for her. I told her to call me if she starts feeling bad and I will drop everything to come take care of her.


Yea-- in the several weeks between shots, she was still vulnerable to some extent to get CoViD...Keep a watch on her....The fever, aches and pains and such after the shot only last a couple days. If it's more than that, it's not just the shot.

I know what you mean about attitude and being pushed...I was wearing a mask when out, not wanting to annoy anybody...but now that they're making such a big deal about it I'm not wearing one-- just to annoy them.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

She was starting to feel sick when she got the first shot. I offered to come help out then but closer family members kept them well fed. I love it that they drop off cooked meals and all Mom or Pop has to do is dish them up or reheat and eat. 

She is feeling better now but says the fatigue and residual coughing make both of them restless at night and overly tired during the day. But they are feeling better, ever so gradually they are feeling better.


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

doc- said:


> a) Science is not to be trusted....They prove that more with each passing day. The "peers" don't allow anything that doesn't agree with their own opinion to get published, and nobody offers for publication anything that will prevent them from getting more research funding. Follow the money....
> 
> 2] "To vaccinate or not to vaccinate" is no longer the question...We are on the verge (if not already there) of having achieved herd immunity naturally. A few more or less vaccinees won't make any difference.


In ye olde days of millennia ago, you might have the king’s wizards, high priests and village witch doctors do superstitious work in secret, boast of their results, lie to others about their work then when it fails blame the others for their lack of faith in X, Y or Z.

True science is when you create to accomplish something, detail the efforts and the results in a paper and then share it openly with your fellow researchers so they can duplicate your efforts, your results, look for flaws in your steps and basically take everything apart to see if it all stands up to the harsh light of examination.

The scientific process is what led to all technical and scientific progress beginning back to the 15th century.

I think some researchers have forgotten this today and instead play social/political voodoo games, calling that “science” all to chase bigger research budgets and favour among their peers.

True effort and true research means years of hard work, making mistakes and sticking your neck out, putting your name on the line. It means intellectual honesty.

The names of Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons, are they very familiar today in the public eye as they were in the past?


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

doc- said:


> Yea-- in the several weeks between shots, she was still vulnerable to some extent to get CoViD...Keep a watch on her....The fever, aches and pains and such after the shot only last a couple days. If it's more than that, it's not just the shot.
> 
> I know what you mean about attitude and being pushed...I was wearing a mask when out, not wanting to annoy anybody...but now that they're making such a big deal about it I'm not wearing one-- just to annoy them.


LOL What is your age.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

101pigs said:


> LOL What is your age.


I'm at that awkward age-- too old for my advances to be welcomed and to young to be dismissed as just a dirty old man.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

never get away with that here. i always have my mask in the car. several and put it on before i get out. for some reason last week went into the store without it on(well i think i know what it was. the night before i had to lay down flat which i haven't been able to do for years, to get a brain scan at emerg. with 2 masks on) and i was still having trouble breathing.

i meant to put it on at the door but got into the lobby not thinking. there were 2 women there who just stood staring daggers at me .then the guard started coming towards me. i realized right away my mistake. grabbed my mask from my pocket and hurriedly put it on.

i wasn't in there long(only to pick up a case of milk on sale) but i saw one of the women again and she ran into a display case in her attempts to be nowhere near me. jmo but i don't think it's going to get back to normal up here in my lifetime. i don't know when we will be able to stop wearing masks. maybe never. life as we knew it is over i think. at least in these parts. ~Georgia


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Years from now we will laugh about how sometimes in the past we would hesitate to go into a store because we stunk of cow manure or hard work sweat.

The only good thing about wearing a mask is not smelling so much perfume that makes me sneeze for hours. But it gets bad after I have eaten something like garlic and not had a chance to brush my teeth.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

The trouble is that politicians claim science is on their side and they can always find someone with letters after their name to back them up. You simply can't trust science as it's known today. That said, I have had the first shot because the vaccine has been out long enough that if it were bad people would be dropping like flies, there is a possibility that covid might kill someone my age, and if the vaccine works I may be able to get back to something like a normal life. 

I don't denigrate anyone's choice. Take it or not, whatever you want.


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## altair (Jul 23, 2011)

Nimrod said:


> The trouble is that politicians claim science is on their side and they can always find someone with letters after their name to back them up. You simply can't trust science as it's known today. That said, I have had the first shot because the vaccine has been out long enough that if it were bad people would be dropping like flies, there is a possibility that covid might kill someone my age, and if the vaccine works I may be able to get back to something like a normal life.
> 
> I don't denigrate anyone's choice. Take it or not, whatever you want.


This is me. As soon as my age group can get it, I'm all over it. I want life again.


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## Max Overhead (Feb 22, 2021)

Hesitant is too mild of a term for how I feel about the jab, the jab-jabberers and their mindless, unscientific jabberwocky.
For newfieannie:

20 Reasons Why I LOVE My Mask

• I love that my mask protects me even though the box it comes in says it can’t

• I love that my mask allows me to re-breathe my exhales because I don’t need all that oxygen I used to breathe and reducing my carbon footprint is a virtuous act

• I love how the paper mask are made with polypropylene and how the plastic becomes brittle in cold weather so I can breathe nano size plastic particles into my lungs, I heard plastic is good for the lungs 

• I love how my mask collects my hot moist breath and breeds colonies of bacteria and mold from my mouth and sinuses, kinda like a personal Petri dish, cool

• I love how my mask gives me cheek rash and bad breath, then it hides those things from others so they never know, HeeHaw

• I love the idea of getting an upper respiratory bacterial infection from prolonged mask wearing, I always wanted one of those

• I love that I don’t have to share a mask with others, to think of all the nastiness of someone else’s mask,,, yuck, but my mask is different because it’s my own nastiness and funk which isn’t nasty to me, my bacteria won’t get me sick if I’m wearing a mask to protect me from getting sick

• I love how intelligent a mask makes me look 

• I love ignoring common sense about the potential dangers of mask wearing because they don’t talk about that stuff on the news

• I love putting on my mask and smelling the last meal that I ate 

• I love to leave my dirty mask on counters for other people to pick up and throw away, I also don’t like to flush the toilet 

• I love that I’m being a role model to children everywhere that they should fear things they can’t see and never question anything authority says.

• I love that we are free to choose mask wearing to shop and travel or choose not to wear a mask and not be able to do anything or go anywhere, we have the freedom to choose to obey and we get to do things they let us do

• I love how brave I look wearing a mask 

• I love how Google, Facebook and Twitter have fact checkers to debunk all the news about mask wearing, they know better than thousands of doctors they silenced

• I love how my mask makes me right and anyone not wearing a mask wrong and dangerous 

• I love how the mask issue lets me know who is a conspiracy nut -versus- those who completely trust the government and politicians to do all of the thinking for us

• I love how the mask isolates people and cuts off communication through facial expression, I don’t like people much so this is great especially for infants 

• I love how the news media and Hollywood have made mask wearing the new normal, that way we can wear them all the time for the rest of our lives, yea! 

• I love that so many people will go along to get along and wear their mask because they don’t want conflict, that way we can all walk over the cliff together,,, next, the 100 reasons I Love vaccines 

dynosarus


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Science peppered in propaganda leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

The idea that the vaccine will "make things normal again" is, IMO, simply not true.


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## CKelly78z (Jul 16, 2017)

The prudent thing for me to do is to observe the sheep who have already gotten the vaccine, for any future signs of trouble.

Somehow, I have survived this long without contracting the virus while rarely wearing a mask, and only know a few friends that have had it (standard flu symptoms) with full recoveries. I'm thinking the only reason that I will get the vaccine is for the abilities to travel overseas.


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## PaLady (Oct 24, 2006)

newfieannie said:


> never get away with that here. i always have my mask in the car. several and put it on before i get out. for some reason last week went into the store without it on(well i think i know what it was. the night before i had to lay down flat which i haven't been able to do for years, to get a brain scan at emerg. with 2 masks on) and i was still having trouble breathing.
> 
> i meant to put it on at the door but got into the lobby not thinking. there were 2 women there who just stood staring daggers at me .then the guard started coming towards me. i realized right away my mistake. grabbed my mask from my pocket and hurriedly put it on.
> 
> i wasn't in there long(only to pick up a case of milk on sale) but i saw one of the women again and she ran into a display case in her attempts to be nowhere near me. jmo but i don't think it's going to get back to normal up here in my lifetime. i don't know when we will be able to stop wearing masks. maybe never. life as we knew it is over i think. at least in these parts. ~Georgia


Unfortunately I believe you're right. People have been bathed in this news constantly for a year. Now they're afraid of other people...how do we ever go back to "normal" when people are content to live in fear? I work in the town where our governor resides (she's a complete idiot) and she has mandated mask wear in public, outside, regardless of ability to social distance. People are walking alone, wearing masks, driving alone wearing masks, and I've even seen a woman playing with her dog in her yard with a mask on both she and the poor dog! That's a level of brainwashed that just can be undone. Last week the positive case rate in our county in Maine was 6.8%...3 days ago it dropped, magically, to 2.1%. For every 100 people only 2 positive cases??? But we are still mandated to masks and weekly COVID testing? Why? For all the years I've been a nurse, we've never tested like this during influenza season, and I've lost far more patients to influenza...and I don't recall ever going on lock-down and mandated mask wear for H1N1. The numbers have been scewed from the beginning and the proof of that is now being seen in the dramatic drop in positive cases. It isn't because of a vaccine because the vaccine doesn't provide protection from contracting covid, it is supposed to ease the symptoms, just like the flu vaccine. I firmly believe this has been the result of politicizing a medical event in an election year solely for the gain of the Washington "evil elite."


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I am among those who don't believe the vaccine will prevent covid instead of reducing the symptoms so much that you don't know you have it. I have yet to see any proof that the vaccine prevents covid.

With every hypothesis you must come to a conclusion based on facts. When you have no facts with which to work you cannot prove or disprove a hypothesis. 

The numbers of covid cases in the original test group have never been updated. Why is that information being kept secret???????


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Max Overhead said:


> Hesitant is too mild of a term for how I feel about the jab, the jab-jabberers....


Interesting point-- here we're subject to our TV news from the liberal cupcakes in Madison. Ever mindful of their obligations to The Left, they incessantly, dutifully quote the daily infection numbers, positive test numbers and deaths. (No CoV deaths in WI 2 days in a row now). 

While spouting their ignorant stories meant only to cause fear, they show footage of people getting vaccinated--- 4 out of 5 are giving the shot right in the middle of the deltoid area-- right into the bursa- where it may not provide an adequate response and quite possible only cause a nasty bursitis....It should be given a little to the rear side of the shoulder into the muscle.

But, it's a govt program...As long as the paper work is properly filled out, the job is considered well done.















[/QUOTE]


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

My mom got bursitis once from a poorly placed flu shot. It took nearly a year before she recovered from that.

Thanks doc for pointing that out. I never noticed because I can't even stand watching someone get a shot.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

We dont get to choose the brand of shots? Right? Other thrn not taking it.
From post on fb groups in my county they have no idea what brand the shots they are given are.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Forcast said:


> We dont get to choose the brand of shots? Right? Other thrn not taking it.
> From post on fb groups in my county they have no idea what brand the shots they are given are.


Our med center called to schedule us for the vac. They only had access to the one that requires deep freeze storage. I declined.

Murphy's Law is a facetious presentation of a legitimate mathematical principle....Too many chances for error in the chain of custody of such a delicate preparation. If not handled properly, it may not give protection yet still foul up testing of immune status, leading to problems in my future..

.If the knuckleheads don't even know how to give a shot, how can I trust them in the intricate handling of the stuff?


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

It’s a trade off. If you are over 75 and in poor health or have some other health condition, the corona virus has a good chance of doing you in. And then the vaccine is a worthy risk. But strictly from a scientific viewpoint, these vaccines have not gone through the required vetting process - experts in this field have said this. So it seems that for a healthy person, passing up on this vaccine is the better risk-reward choice.

For me, the last time I got a flu shot I was never so sick in a single year. But then again, this vaccine is quite different in nature from those former flu shots.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

MichaelZ
“If you are over 75 and in poor health, the corona virus has a good chance of doing you in.”

What do you consider a good chance?


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

MichaelZ said:


> It’s a trade off.* If you are over 75 and in poor health* or have some other health condition, the corona virus has a good chance of doing you in. And then the vaccine is a worthy risk.....


At that point, what are we saving you for?....I could put the "smiley face" here, but seriously, how long would you live if you don't get CoV? That's the real question.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

“CDC spokesperson Jasmine Reed told PolitiFact that the agency has not released any age-specific COVID-19 survival rates, nor does it have mortality rates available.

The CDC document says the scenarios "are not predictions of the expected effects of COVID-19" and "do not reflect the impact of any behavioral changes, social distancing, or other interventions." It also says "uncertainty remains around nearly all parameter values.””









Fact-check: Does CDC release COVID-19 survival rates?


Viral tweet cites made-up CDC ‘COVID-19 survival rates’ to downplay vaccine



www.statesman.com


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

doc- said:


> At that point, what are we saving you for?....I could put the "smiley face" here, but seriously, how long would you live if you don't get CoV? That's the real question.


That makes me think of my mother in law who passed away last year. She was admitted to the hospital for a broken arm when they found cancer markers and stage 4 kidney disease through blood tests. Yet the hospital still insisted on giving her a flu shot when flu season was nearly over and she wasn't going to be able to fight the kidney disease much longer. She didn't last a month after getting the flu shot so it was just an insurance money scam, along with the mammogram they put her through.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Elder abuse at its worst.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Elder abuse at its worst.


If I had been there it would not have happened. What do men know about getting a mammogram?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Forcast said:


> We dont get to choose the brand of shots? Right? Other thrn not taking it.
> From post on fb groups in my county they have no idea what brand the shots they are given are.


I've been thinking about that very question and what I think is that if you get it through public health mass vaccination, you don't have a choice. What I think would work is to tell your healthcare provider what specific vaccine you want and see if they can provide it.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Health providers do not get a choice in the vaccine they get. They get what they get depending on their ability to store at the proper temperature.

The good thing is all those that are not getting it will allow those that want it to get it, the ability to get it faster and maybe in the near future the ability to choose which one as supply exceeds demand.


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

Danaus29 said:


> This article should really convince you that you need to get it despite your unaddressed concerns;
> (SARCASM)
> 
> 
> ...


“Those people” don’t want to admit that it is because of science and the pursuit of health that I Won’t take it. 🙄


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

And they will never address the truth that many people won’t take it due to the ethical issues with it. Aborted fetal cells used in the testing or used in the end product. They also don’t want people to know those cells had to be “harvested” (from the liver, lungs, heart and more) while the heart is still beating so they are even usable. That is torture and murder. The reason people won’t take it for ethical reasons.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GreenLeaf Homestead said:


> And they will never address the truth that many people won’t take it due to the ethical issues with it. Aborted fetal cells used in the testing or used in the end product. They also don’t want people to know those cells had to be “*harvested” (from the liver, lungs, heart and more) while the heart is still beating so they are even usable. *That is torture and murder. The reason people won’t take it for ethical reasons.


That is false.

I will also add because you are new. Topics such as abortion and the discussion of it, is one of the faster ways to get a thread tossed on HT.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

"The core of it really is that a lot of people just don't trust science because they don't understand it," she said. 
Therein lies our problem. I do recall there was a push for kids to get a more intensive science education in 80's and 90's, then it seems to have fallen by the wayside. 
Now, we have the fruits of our labor, in an increasingly complicated world run by scientific inventions. Problem is, the vast majority have no clue how any of it works. Without that knowledge, they resort to voodoo, and are easily impressionable by junk science/conspiracy theorists. This mRNA vaccine that is floating out there, seems like a godsend for skeptics like me, because it's mechanics of action are about as benign as one can get...it is an instruction set that tells your cells to produce a spike protein, a harmless piece of junk that cannot morph or reproduce. The cell seeing this spike protein, mounts an antibody response to clean up this garbage. By doing so, it has created an antibody that will go after the COVID virus should you get infected. It is a brilliant piece of engineering. It should be noted our cell produces mRNA. 
I am optimistic mRNA vaccine will launch a new era, such as curing cancer, and other nasties.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> “CDC spokesperson Jasmine Reed told PolitiFact that the agency has not released any age-specific COVID-19 survival rates, nor does it have mortality rates available.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> That is false.
> 
> I will also add because you are new. Topics such as abortion and the discussion of it, is one of the faster ways to get a thread tosses on HT.


Or, if she chooses to discuss murder, allow her to do so and let the mods make that decision.
Seems to be a lot of folks trying to tell others what they can and can't say these days, lol.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Or, if she chooses to discuss murder, allow her to do so and let the mods make that decision.
> Seems to be a lot of folks trying to tell others what they can and can't say these days, lol.


The mods will make the decision. I just gave a new poster a heads up.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

People seem to want only to focus on survival rates of covid. I couldn't be less concerned about my chance of dying from it. I'm concerned about the many long term issues that are cropping up in "survivors". That's why I wanted the vaccine as soon as possible.


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

painterswife said:


> That is false.
> 
> I will also add because you are new. Topics such as abortion and the discussion of it, is one of the faster ways to get a thread tosses on HT.


Good to know, thank you. But what part of what I said is false?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I highlighted what is false but I won't be discussing it more than that. Going further will take down this thread.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

A meme is not truth.


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

painterswife said:


> That is false.
> 
> I will also add because you are new. Topics such as abortion and the discussion of it, is one of the faster ways to get a thread tosses on HT.





painterswife said:


> I highlighted what is false but I won't be discussing it more than that. Going further will take down this thread.


I understand that completely but since it isn’t false please don’t “flag” something as false that you are not sure about, especially if you are not going to back your reasoning. 

I was just bringing forth the reason why many will refuse the shot. Just facts. If we can put forth reasons why people will take the shot or reasons why people won’t take the shot than how is my comment any different? Yes, I am new here and I guess I just assumed this was a free speech platform.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Have you read the rules here?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

melli said:


> "The core of it really is that a lot of people just don't trust science because they don't understand it," she said.
> Therein lies our problem. I do recall there was a push for kids to get a more intensive science education in 80's and 90's, then it seems to have fallen by the wayside.
> Now, we have the fruits of our labor, in an increasingly complicated world run by scientific inventions. Problem is, the vast majority have no clue how any of it works. Without that knowledge, they resort to voodoo, and are easily impressionable by junk science/conspiracy theorists. This mRNA vaccine that is floating out there, seems like a godsend for skeptics like me, because it's mechanics of action are about as benign as one can get...it is an instruction set that tells your cells to produce a spike protein, a harmless piece of junk that cannot morph or reproduce. The cell seeing this spike protein, mounts an antibody response to clean up this garbage. By doing so, it has created an antibody that will go after the COVID virus should you get infected. It is a brilliant piece of engineering. It should be noted our cell produces mRNA.
> I am optimistic mRNA vaccine will launch a new era, such as curing cancer, and other nasties.


So what happens if a person already has antibodies and then gets the vaccine?


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> So what happens if a person already has antibodies and then gets the vaccine?


How does one get the antibody testing? Mom spent five days in the local hospital with covid-19.Now she wants the vaccine. She's been home three weeks and I haven't used a mask around her...


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

GreenLeaf Homestead said:


> Yes, I am new here and I guess I just assumed this was a free speech platform.


You are free to read or not read the TOS. I'd say this platform is a fairly free speaking group with a dark room for those that choose to take it further. There is a variety here from those who are mainly interested in beans and cows to a few who do little more than troll and bicker over socio/political events. But regardless, folks that try to dictate what you can and cannot say exist everywhere, some even have a badge.
My paygrade on this forum doesn't include that.
Oh, by the way, welcome to Homesteading Today. Glad to have you!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> A meme is not truth.


I disagree.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Hilarious.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

GreenLeaf Homestead said:


> Good to know, thank you. But what part of what I said is false?


The "beating heart" BS.
Stimulus--> reaction is not "feeling pain" nor "suffering." Those are complex synaptic networks in a more advanced cerebral cortex.

Once the decision (none of our business) is made to surgically abort, you would think the DoGooders would want the tissue to at least be used for some good. Why toss it? Re-cycle Re-purpose Re- use Right?


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

GTX63 said:


> You are free to read or not read the TOS. I'd say this platform is a fairly free speaking group with a dark room for those that choose to take it further. There is a variety here from those who are mainly interested in beans and cows to a few who do little more than troll and bicker over socio/political events. But regardless, folks that try to dictate what you can and cannot say exist everywhere, some even have a badge.
> My paygrade on this forum doesn't include that.
> Oh, by the way, welcome to Homesteading Today. Glad to have you!


I hadn’t come across the rules prior but did search them out now and still don’t see where my factual statements have gone against any of the rules especially being within this thread. I’m definitely interested in all things homesteading and farming; we are grain farmers who also have a milk cow, beef cow, 31 chickens, ducks, farm dog, cat and a garden. 😁 
I don’t want to argue with anyone, I respect everyone’s freedom to believe what they wish, I just wish people wouldn’t say something is false when it’s facts. 😞 I do hope people will respect facts enough to not label them as false just because they don’t like them.


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

doc- said:


> The "beating heart" BS.
> Stimulus--> reaction is not "feeling pain" nor "suffering." Those are complex synaptic networks in a more advanced cerebral cortex.
> 
> Once the decision (none of our business) is made to surgically abort, you would think the DoGooders would want the tissue to at least be used for some good. Why toss it? Re-cycle Re-purpose Re- use Right?


Actually it’s not false, believe me, I would never say that if it wasn’t proven factual! Actually, swearing or the like I thought was supposed to be against the rules but I’m new here so. 
The heart cells are unusable unless the heart is beating when harvested. I wouldn’t post the links here but if you wish to see the sources you can message me I guess. If that’s allowed. Anyway, I don’t mind if people don’t like it or have a view on how the tissues are being used but to state facts as false is just spreading misinformation.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Never mind, it's a waste of time.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

GreenLeaf Homestead said:


> Actually it’s not false, believe me, I would never say that if it wasn’t proven factual! Actually, swearing or the like I thought was supposed to be against the rules but I’m new here so.
> The heart cells are unusable unless the heart is beating when harvested. I wouldn’t post the links here but if you wish to see the sources you can message me I guess. If that’s allowed. Anyway, I don’t mind if people don’t like it or have a view on how the tissues are being used but to state facts as false is just spreading misinformation.


BS
Even more basic to your contention about the CoV vaccine-- it's made using E.coli cells, not human cells.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

This is one reason why people don't trust the vaccine. They believe false information about how it was produced.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I am sure that statement is accurate. ONE reason.


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

todd_xxxx said:


> Since you continue to insist that what you said is true, here are the facts:
> 
> "No, the COVID-19 vaccines do not contain any aborted fetal cells. However, Pfizer and Moderna did perform confirmation tests (to ensure the vaccines work) using fetal cell lines.
> 
> ...


I have been researching about aborted baby DNA, cell lines in medical uses for almost a decade and if you look at my comment I said in the shot or in the making of the shot. You are correct that those two companies are not using it in the end product but they did use it in the technology testing (which is why I worded it the way I did) but other companies are using it in the end product.


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

doc- said:


> BS
> Even more basic to your contention about the CoV vaccine-- it's made using E.coli cells, not human cells.


“Covid-19 Vaccines and Treatments in Development - Updated Jan 12, 2021 Listed in Alphabetical Order”



https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploads/CovidCompareMoralImmoral.pdf


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

painterswife said:


> This is one reason why people don't trust the vaccine. They believe false information about how it was produced.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

YouTube has started a campaign to build trust for the vaccines


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I wish them luck. LOL LOL LOL


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

HDRider said:


> YouTube has started a campaign to build trust for the vaccines


I'm putting horse liniment on for a pulled muscle. I really don't think that's going to cure it 😃 . I really need to slow down!... The main thing I learn from YouTube is home repairs I've never been exposed to...


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> MichaelZ
> “If you are over 75 and in poor health, the corona virus has a good chance of doing you in.”
> 
> What do you consider a good chance?


According to the CDC, 2800X the death rate of an 5-17 year old, on average. But then again, the actual percent of 75 year olds dying, on average, is around 2%. So if you are in good health, even if you are older, your chances of dying from this are still very low. That is why "other factors" like obesity, illness, cancer etc come into play.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> So what happens if a person already has antibodies and then gets the vaccine?


From what I've heard, just need one jab, instead of two.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Please post a reputable link to that claim.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

doc- said:


> At that point, what are we saving you for?....I could put the "smiley face" here, but seriously, how long would you live if you don't get CoV? That's the real question.


Anyone over 70 should not get the shot. They are to old and doesn't know anything anyway. Like get rid of the last two Presidents. Look at the mess they have caused. .


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Excuse the peewaddle out of me. 

We are not getting the shot, but my husband is 76 years old and can work (and think) rings around just about anyone over 50. Some under 50.

I think you were joking, but not sure.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Please post a reputable link to that claim.


I was going to say CDC, but you said reputable.

I deleted the other info in post because I made a mistake on 1 thing. See my post further down in thread for correct info.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

CDC , Center for Disinformation and Confusion?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> I was going to say CDC, but you said reputable.
> 
> I can't find the info right now, but a Congressman recently challenged the CDC about requiring 2 shots for those who previously had Covid-19. CDC agreed they only needed 1 shot, not 2, but didn't change the website. He kept going higher and higher at CDC, each time they agreed they only needed 1 shot, but still didn't correct the website. Finally, they changed the website but seemed to purposely make it confusing.
> 
> I searched CDC and can't find it and I don't remember the Congressman's name.


Here's an article about it from a reliable source. I think I had it partly wrong as it looks like it is recommended to not get any shots if you have had covid-19.









Rep. Thomas Massie: CDC Is Lying About The Efficacy Of The Vaccine For People Who Already Had COVID


"Full Measure" host Sharyl Attkisson speaks with Rep. Thomas Massie, a scientist, who says the CDC is either lying or very mistaken about the COVID-19 vaccine. Massie calls it misinformation. CDC chalks it up to an "honest mistake." Whatever it is, it resulted in vaccines going to some who are...




www.realclearpolitics.com


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

melli said:


> From what I've heard, just need one jab, instead of two.





Forcast said:


> We dont get to choose the brand of shots? Right? Other thrn not taking it.
> From post on fb groups in my county they have no idea what brand the shots they are given are.


Does not matter where in the U.S. you get the shot. DIfferent brands are used in different locations. Yes you are told what brand you are getting. The first ones that came out was 2 shots. Some others have came out that one shot is used. You don't have to take any shot unless you are a nurse working with people then you are required to take the shot for good reasons.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> Here's an article about it from a reliable source. I think I had it partly wrong as it looks like it is recommended to not get any shots if you have had covid-19.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For my little small brain it's just like turning on the TV and it is the bachelor!!!


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I was going to say it was evidence of the cluster, but I restrained myself. Temporarily.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Excuse the peewaddle out of me.
> 
> We are not getting the shot, but my husband is 76 years old and can work (and think) rings around just about anyone over 50. Some under 50.
> 
> I think you were joking, but not sure.


Yes i was not serous. My Grandfather was 96 when he passed away. He was still gaviing me good info. on things from farming to advanced engineering projects. My Father and Mother both lived to be 92 and sane. They were my rock as far as infor. on just about anything concering life. At 70 they still knew more then myself about life etc. In WW2 a man in Germany killed anyone over 75 because he said they were to old to do the country any good.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

And today they find breast lumps lymph nods. From both vaccine Just keeps getting better.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

GreenLeaf Homestead said:


> “Covid-19 Vaccines and Treatments in Development - Updated Jan 12, 2021 Listed in Alphabetical Order”
> 
> 
> 
> https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploads/CovidCompareMoralImmoral.pdf


I like to learn things. My opinions are always based on knowledge and not some pre-determined ideology....so I went thru the articles listed in your citation.

In NONE of them were new fetal stem cells used. The closest any came to supporting your view was that the authors of that page CLAIMED that HEK 293 cells were used in development of the vaccine and then cited several references, NONE of which mentioned HEK 293.

HEK 293 is a line of cells commercially produced and sold for lab use for various research applications-- including major food producers-- like Pepsi. They are used mainly for growing viruses or specific protein of interest.

The line of cells is derived from ONE human fetal source in 1973. For all we know, the fetal cells may have been obtained from a natural miscarriage and not a voluntary abortion procedure. [edit-- It just dawned on me- Roe v Wade was 1973, and the the HEK 293 research was published the same yr, having taken place over several yrs before that, ie-- most probable that the fetal source was obtained "naturally."]

The literature of propaganda is replete with disingenuous pieces that imply that HEK 293 cells are found in various foods-- an absolute LIE. Many food companies do use them in their research labs for testing applications.....If one were to object to that and then refuse to eat any food involved in that, then, unless one was a completely self-reliant homesteader, one would starve to death.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I explained what part of the pseudo science makes me very unlikely to get the mrna vaccine. The lack of follow-up on the control group, the extremely low numbers of test groups who later contracted covid, the insistence that the vaccine is better than your own antibodies, the refusal to test for antibodies before administering the vaccine, and a simple "does the vaccine prevent covid", I could go on quite a while. None of my questions are answered by the scientists. There are no updated reports on the original test groups, now the CDC is saying the vaccine won't _prevent_ covid, they still don't test for antibodies, etc. The lack of answers and the constant spew of "this is a new virus so we just _*don't know*_" is most of why I don't want the mrna vaccine. 

Now give J&J a few more months to perfect and test their covid prevention vaccine and we'll talk. 

I still believe the mystery virus I had in late 2019 was covid. Until my doctor will do the antibody test to prove otherwise I will guess that I already had covid. But I will continue to distance myself from strangers and/or sick people, not necessarily because of covid.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Danaus29 said:


> I still believe the mystery virus I had in late 2019 was covid. Until my doctor will do the antibody test to prove otherwise I will guess that I already had covid. But I will continue to distance myself from strangers and/or sick people, not necessarily because of covid.


An antibody test likely won't tell you anything at this point anyway. It is unlikely that you would show antibodies this long after infection even if you did have covid.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Forcast said:


> And today they find breast lumps lymph nods. From both vaccine Just keeps getting better.


Swelling of lymph nodes from any vaccination or illness is very common. The suggestion is to not have a mammogram for 6 weeks after the vaccination. That is not at all unexpected.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

todd_xxxx said:


> An antibody test likely won't tell you anything at this point anyway. It is unlikely that you would show antibodies this long after infection even if you did have covid.


And that brings up another issue. If the antibodies don't last more than a year, what is the point? We will all still get covid because if even natural antibodies don't last then the results from the vaccine won't last long enough for every single person to get vaccinated because they aren't vaccinating children or pregnant women.


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## wil14 (Sep 13, 2020)

This article didn't even break down MRNA vs traditional vaccination methods. It just says trust "science". It's mid-wit elitism.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Danaus29 said:


> And that brings up another issue. If the antibodies don't last more than a year, what is the point? We will all still get covid because if even natural antibodies don't last then the results from the vaccine won't last long enough for every single person to get vaccinated because they aren't vaccinating children or pregnant women.


You can still be resistant to a disease after the antibodies don't show up on the antibody test anymore.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Need a reputable source on that statement, please.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

todd_xxxx said:


> You can still be resistant to a disease after the antibodies don't show up on the antibody test anymore.


And again, the scientists (CDC) say "we just don't know";









COVID-19 and Your Health


Symptoms, testing, what to do if sick, daily activities, and more.




www.cdc.gov


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## jeepgrrl (Jun 3, 2020)

TripleD said:


> How does one get the antibody testing? Mom spent five days in the local hospital with covid-19.Now she wants the vaccine. She's been home three weeks and I haven't used a mask around her...


Donate blood. The Red Cross is currently checking all blood, plasma and platelet donors for the antibodies, and it’s free! You can also request your PCP to take and submit your blood sample; however, you may have to pay for it out-of-pocket.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Maybe I should talk hubby into donating again. That would let us know if he had covid, maybe. I can't donate. I've been told by 4 doctors and a hospital that I am not a good donor candidate. The last one said taking my blood is very much like getting blood from a turnip.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Need a reputable source on that statement, please.


Memory t-cells.



> However, a small portion of long-lived T cells still remains for rapid response upon pathogen re-exposure. This kind of cells is called memory T cells. Because memory T cells have been trained to recognize specific antigens, they will trigger a faster and stronger immune response after encountering the same antigen. This is how vaccines work to protect us against infection.


https://www.genscript.com/antibody-drug-development-news/memory-t-cells-how-are-they-formed.html


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

__





Hy-Vee to Offer COVID-19 Rapid Antibody Testing at More than 250 Locations throughout the Midwest - Company - Hy-Vee - Your employee-owned grocery store


<p>Hy-Vee, Inc. will begin offering COVID-19 rapid antibody testing at more than 250 Hy-Vee pharmacy locations on Monday, Jan. 18. Patients will receive same day test results in as few as 15 minutes after completing the test.</p>




www.hy-vee.com





Some Hyvee grocery locations offers the test if you have one nearby. I don't know if there are tests available from other Pharmacies.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

MoonRiver said:


> Memory t-cells.


Exactly.

*Role of Gut Microbiota in Immune Homeostasis*
Bryan Tungland, in Human Microbiota in Health and Disease, 2018
*4.2.4 Memory T cells (Tm cells)*
Memory T cells are antigen-specific T cells that remain long-term after an infection has been eliminated. The memory T cells are quickly converted into large numbers of effector T cells upon reexposure to the specific invading antigen, thus providing a rapid response to past infection. Memory T cells are either CD4+ or the virus-specific CD8+ depending on the type of antigen encountered (MacLeod et al., 2010). The memory T cells include subtypes, central memory T cells (Tcm cells), effector memory T cells (Tem cells and Temra cells) (Willinger et al., 2005), as subtypes. They also typically express CD45RO cell surface protein (Valentine et al., 2013; Akbar et al., 1988).


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## jeepgrrl (Jun 3, 2020)

MoonRiver said:


> So what happens if a person already has antibodies and then gets the vaccine?


My exact thoughts. I’ve already had the virus (minimal symptoms) and recovered. I do not plan on getting the vaccine, why should I when my immune system made its own antibodies. I never take the yearly influenza vac either and do just fine without it, I depend on my immune system’s memory cells to keep me healthy. That being said, from what I understand from what has been reported, the antibodies only remain in one’s system for a few months, thus the need for the vaccine to “replace” the antibodies (via “instructing“ the immune system to produce more antibodies). That is why there has been some chatter about possibly having to receive the vaccine multiple times in a given year (not referring to the booster that is currently being administered). There have also been some reports of symptoms being worse after a second round of Covid-19, and getting the vaccine *should* help lessen the symptoms, although I still need to research that idea further.

The CDC’s current recommendation is that everyone should get the vaccine whether or not you have had Covid-19 because* “experts do not yet know how long you are protected from getting sick again after recovering from COVID-19. Even if you have already recovered from COVID-19, it is possible—although rare—that you could be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19 again”. *

Bottom line: if you want the vaccine, then get it and if you don’t, don’t. Enjoy the freedom to make these kind of decisions while you still can.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

jeepgrrl said:


> My exact thoughts. I’ve already had the virus (minimal symptoms) and recovered. I do not plan on getting the vaccine, why should I when my immune system made its own antibodies. I never take the yearly influenza vac either and do just fine without it, I depend on my immune system’s memory cells to keep me healthy. That being said, from what I understand from what has been reported, the antibodies only remain in one’s system for a few months, thus the need for the vaccine to “replace” the antibodies (via “instructing“ the immune system to produce more antibodies). That is why there has been some chatter about possibly having to receive the vaccine multiple times in a given year (not referring to the booster that is currently being administered). There have also been some reports of symptoms being worse after a second round of Covid-19, and getting the vaccine *should* help lessen the symptoms, although I still need to research that idea further.
> 
> The CDC’s current recommendation is that everyone should get the vaccine whether or not you have had Covid-19 because* “experts do not yet know how long you are protected from getting sick again after recovering from COVID-19. Even if you have already recovered from COVID-19, it is possible—although rare—that you could be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19 again”. *
> 
> Bottom line: if you want the vaccine, then get it and if you don’t, don’t. Enjoy the freedom to make these kind of decisions while you still can.


They don't know how long antibodies stay active, which is the justification CDC was using to tell everyone to get vaccinated, even if they had Covid-19. Now they are in agreement that a person who had Covid-19 does not need to get the vaccine at this time.


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## jeepgrrl (Jun 3, 2020)

I still believe the mystery virus I had in late 2019 was covid. Until my doctor will do the antibody test to prove otherwise I will guess that I already had covid. But I will continue to distance myself from strangers and/or sick people, not necessarily because of covid.
[/QUOTE]

My hubs and I also had the “mystery illness” in January, 2020. The symptoms we had then were dry cough (lasted 6-8 weeks), extreme fatigue, fever, muscle aches. It was highly contagious - he was sick on a Thursday and I was sick by the next evening. When I had COVID-19, my symptoms were dry sinus congestion, loss of taste and smell, and headaches, basically just mild symptoms and much different than the mystery bug. Hubs was worse off than me, he had a dry cough (still does), loss of smell/taste, extreme fatigue and nausea, and very slow to recover. He ended up getting the monoclonal antibody therapy to help speed up his recovery. This time, neither of us ever had a fever. I was definitely sicker with the mystery illness than I was with Covid, but my husband would say he definitely felt worse with COVID-19 b/c of the nausea. Because it has been reported that blood products from late 2019 were testing positive for the Covid-19 antibodies and the symptoms we experienced in January, 2020, we feel that the mystery illness was Covid-19. I wish there was a way to prove that definitively!


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I was sick in Jan of 2020 and thought I might have had covid. Sickest I had been in decades. 

I did not have it. Three of four people that had what I had then have now gotten Covid ( tested and verified) in December 2020. They all said it was very different from when they were sick the year before.


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## jeepgrrl (Jun 3, 2020)

MoonRiver said:


> They don't know how long antibodies stay active, which is the justification CDC was using to tell everyone to get vaccinated, even if they had Covid-19. *Now they are in agreement that a person who had Covid-19 does not need to get the vaccine at this time.*


True regarding the CDCs justification, but be careful of your wording: they are recommending that folks that have recovered from Covid-19 or had monoclonal antibody therapy *should wait 90 days before receiving the vaccine.*


Danaus29 said:


> Maybe I should talk hubby into donating again. That would let us know if he had covid, maybe. I can't donate. I've been told by 4 doctors and a hospital that I am not a good donor candidate. The last one said taking my blood is very much like getting blood from a turnip.


At minimum, if he wasn’t able to find out his antibody status at least he would be donating some blood. 

I tried twice last Autumn to donate and find out if I had antibodies or not. Alas, my hemoglobin was too low and the RC rejected me. I wanted to donate my plasma after I recovered from COVID-19 but you have to donate at a specific site, not just go to any RC blood drive. The facility was an hour away (one way) so I asked if I could get my hemoglobin checked locally before making the drive, and they said no, I couldn’t do that. They said just to eat a lot of red meat and chew up some Flintstones vitamins a few days before going in, lol!


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## jeepgrrl (Jun 3, 2020)

painterswife said:


> I was sick in Jan of 2020 and thought I might have had covid. Sickest I had been in decades.
> 
> I did not have it. Three of four people that had what I had then have now gotten Covid ( tested and verified) in December 2020. They all said it was very different from when they were sick the year before.


I dunno...without any of us having been tested last January, 2020, obviously we will never know for certain. I posted above the symptoms my hubs and I both had last January, 2020. All of them fall within the symptomatology of Covid-19. We both also had Covid in late December, 2020 (confirmed), and symptoms were vastly different (also posted above). Don’t forget that this virus has mutated several times since this all began, and mutations can/do cause a variety of symptoms. I also think symptom development/severity is dependent on viral load. I do have to wonder if my symptoms in December were mild b/c I _had_ COVID-19 in January, 2020, so my immune system was already primed for another infection? At the start of this pandemic, a lot of folks were dx’d with COVID-19 based on symptoms alone; if they had started doing that same type of diagnosis a few months earlier, you, me, my husband, and your friends would have all been dx’d with Covid, assuming you and your friends had the “typical” symptoms as described by the CDC. I really wish I could have been tested for antibodies before I actually got COVID-19, but alas, that wasn’t meant to be so I will be pondering the “did I have it or did I not have COVID-19 in early 2020” question until the end of my days.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

jeepgrrl said:


> True regarding the CDCs justification, but be careful of your wording: they are recommending that folks that have recovered from Covid-19 or had monoclonal antibody therapy *should wait 90 days before receiving the vaccine.*


"It wasn’t until Massie’s final call with the CDC, to deputy director Anne Schuchat, that it was acknowledged that a correction was necessary. *“As you note correctly, there is not sufficient analysis to show that in the subset of only the people with prior infection, there's efficacy. So, you're correct that that sentence is wrong *and that we need to make a correction of it. I apologize for the delay,” Schuchat said. January 29, 2021, the CDC did finally issue a correction, which reads:12​


> _“Consistent high efficacy (≥92%) was observed across age, sex, race, and ethnicity categories and among persons with underlying medical conditions. Efficacy was similarly high in a secondary analysis including participants both with or without evidence of previous SARS-CoV-2 infection.”_​


*Instead of fixing the error, Massie believes the wording still misleadingly suggests vaccination is effective for those previously infected." Health Officials Make Crucial Error in Vaccine Recommendation*​


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

And science like that is why I hesitate about the vaccine!


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## jeepgrrl (Jun 3, 2020)

MoonRiver said:


> "It wasn’t until Massie’s final call with the CDC, to deputy director Anne Schuchat, that it was acknowledged that a correction was necessary. *“As you note correctly, there is not sufficient analysis to show that in the subset of only the people with prior infection, there's efficacy. So, you're correct that that sentence is wrong *and that we need to make a correction of it. I apologize for the delay,” Schuchat said. January 29, 2021, the CDC did finally issue a correction, which reads:12​
> *Instead of fixing the error, Massie believes the wording still misleadingly suggests vaccination is effective for those previously infected." Health Officials Make Crucial Error in Vaccine Recommendation*​


I really should know better than to quote the CDC (or any other federal agency, for that matter). I tried your link above but unfortunately they want me to pony up my email address to let me read their article but I saw another similar article you posted on another thread. I’m glad Massie is speaking up but it’s aggravating to hear the CDC excusing their ineptness as them being “not perfect”, or “we‘re gonna miss some things”. And we are supposed to trust these people? No thanks, CDC, y’all can give my share of the vaccine to someone else who really wants it! According to the NYT, I would be in the last group to receive the vaccine based on my age, my health status, and my job, but I think we will have certainly reached herd immunity by then, if we aren’t already approaching it now.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

CDC ≠ science


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## jeepgrrl (Jun 3, 2020)

todd_xxxx said:


> CDC ≠ science


CDC ≠ truth


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

It all sounds bollocks to me.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Here's an article in which they give 2 very different stories









Woman contracts COVID-19 in between vaccine doses


Many have asked whether you can get COVID-19 in between vaccine doses. The answer is yes.




www.nbc4i.com





First they say the vaccine "may help keep you from getting seriously ill" if you get covid then they say the vaccines "have been shown to be highly effective at preventing" covid.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> And science like that is why I hesitate about the vaccine!


Keep in mind that the goofs making the statements are bureaucrats first, physicians second...They get an MD degree, probably do little actual practice, maybe some lab research while taking courses in Public Health-- which basically teaches them how to fill out the forms. Their statements usually provide more comic relief than expertise...It's like asking the generals how the war is going. It's the dog face infantry man that you should be asking.

In regards "they don't know-- no data" is a lame argument. It's like Rodney Dangerfield's story about being kidnapped--"My father wanted more proof.".....

It's the unusual virus that doesn't bring on permanent immunity after an acute infection, so, while they haven't done the tests, _the chances are _this infection & vaccine does give permanent immunity (to this strain at least)...and _probably_ no need to get the vaccine if you've been proven to have been infected naturally....As with everything I say around here, I reserve the right to change my mind when new evidence shows up.


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## jeepgrrl (Jun 3, 2020)

Danaus29 said:


> Here's an article in which they give 2 very different stories
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The following sentence quoted from the article is classic: “According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, experts *believe* getting a COVID-19 vaccine *may* help keep you from getting seriously ill even if you contract the virus.” Yup, that is totally convincing, I guess if you believe in it, then maybe it’ll be true, like Santa Claus?


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

I'm not sure why so many people have such a hard time with answers containing phrases like "we think", "we believe", "it may". It's a new disease and a new vaccine, there are going to be areas that no one knows the answers to yet. All a person can do is read the available research and information and decide for themselves which is the right decision.

And the part I really don't understand is so many people that can't make the decision for themselves without insinuating, or flat out saying, that the people that decided to go the other way are morons. If you take the vaccine you are a sheep, if you don't you're a conspiracy theorist, and on and on. For ****'s sake, do what you are comfortable with and let everyone else do the same.


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

What leaves me scratching my head is this:

The same people who vaccinate their herds, who insist on bleach washing shoes before you enter their barns, who lock their gates to prevent anyone bringing in disease to their herds, who isolate new cattle or hogs or sheep or alpacas or what have you, are the same people here who poo poo the idea of vaccinating humans or mask wearing or hand washing or social distancing.

They get the science with their animals and trust their vets pretty much implicitly but are offended out the wazoo if their doctor suggest the same steps for human health.

Makes just no.sense.at.all.


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

nodak3 said:


> What leaves me scratching my head is this:
> 
> The same people who vaccinate their herds, who insist on bleach washing shoes before you enter their barns, who lock their gates to prevent anyone bringing in disease to their herds, who isolate new cattle or hogs or sheep or alpacas or what have you, are the same people here who poo poo the idea of vaccinating humans or mask wearing or hand washing or social distancing.
> 
> ...


My guess....agricultural folks are probably well researched on veterinary medicine and animal welfare whereas human medicine and human welfare tends to involve politicians and big money and therefore plenty of obsufication. Humans are usually not good at looking after themselves or other humans so fights get in the way.

This is likely where the distrust and baloney comes from.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

nodak3 said:


> What leaves me scratching my head is this:
> 
> The same people who vaccinate their herds, who insist on bleach washing shoes before you enter their barns, who lock their gates to prevent anyone bringing in disease to their herds, who isolate new cattle or hogs or sheep or alpacas or what have you, are the same people here who poo poo the idea of vaccinating humans or mask wearing or hand washing or social distancing.
> 
> ...


How long has the cattle vaccine been around?

I haven't noticed anyone here poo pooing social distancing or washing their hands. The point many have made is the vaccines have only received emergency approval and we don't know if there are any long term side effects. Even the military can't require service members to get the vaccine because it has not been fully approved.

I wear a mask out of caution, but I have no idea if it helps or not. There has not been a definitive clinical trial done that demonstrates with a high probability that masks work against the Sars-Cov2 virus. For every study that claims they work, there is another study that says they don't.

Maybe you are not familiar with the hundreds of doctors who have challenged the FDA/CDC positions on Covid-19. I personally question the government's recommendations on Covid-19 because they have politicized it.

The government has lied on several occasions about Covid-19, so everything they say about Covid-19 should be questioned.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Looks like there might be a third jab added into the mix.

Despite the 95 percent effectiveness at preventing coronavirus infection after two doses of its vaccine, Pfizer is now seeing what a third dose might do.

The company announced Thursday that a booster dose is being studied among people who received their first doses of the vaccine more than six months ago.









A third Pfizer dose? The Covid-19 vaccine maker is studying booster shots.


Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla spoke with NBC News' Lester Holt about the next steps for the company's Covid-19 vaccine.




www.nbcnews.com


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

I decided not to take the vaccine. Had covid twice if thats not enough to give me immunity then so be it. Started out thinking no way i would drive an hour and stand in s line. Then thought well when they do come to my home to give me one. But nope not doing it. Maybe in 10 years when all the tests are added up.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

"The same people who say..." is one of my triggers.

I call bovine excrement.

NO ONE KNOWS if the same people who practice biosecurity on their chicken farm are the same folks who won't subject themselves to the Covid injection. 

I am 100% sure there has NOT been a survey of farmers.

Claiming it's "THOSE SAME PEOPLE" is lame. (Trying to be polite (ish.))


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

nodak3 said:


> What leaves me scratching my head is this:
> 
> The same people who vaccinate their herds, who insist on bleach washing shoes before you enter their barns, who lock their gates to prevent anyone bringing in disease to their herds, who isolate new cattle or hogs or sheep or alpacas or what have you, are the same people here who poo poo the idea of vaccinating humans or mask wearing or hand washing or social distancing.
> 
> ...


How do you know this to be fact? I have no problem at all social distancing and washing my hands. Masks are subjective in my opinion. If someone is under medical advice not to wear one, no layperson, including yourself has the legal right to tell them otherwise, including yourself. 

I accept the opinions of my doctor and I think most here do as well but there is a big difference between discussions with our doctors, who spent years getting sufficient education to dispense advice and you telling me what I need to do. You are not my doctor so you have no legal or moral right to draw conclusions or express any opinions on my health.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

nodak3 said:


> What leaves me scratching my head is this:
> 
> The same people who vaccinate their herds, who insist on bleach washing shoes before you enter their barns, who lock their gates to prevent anyone bringing in disease to their herds, who isolate new cattle or hogs or sheep or alpacas or what have you, are the same people here who poo poo the idea of vaccinating humans or mask wearing or hand washing or social distancing.
> 
> ...


If there were a virus spreading among livestock that had a mortality rate of well under 1% if they actually contracted it, it is unlikely many of us would take extraordinary measures to mitigate it. Not to mention, I cannot seem to convince any of my livestock to self quarantine or wash their hooves or not just want to be next to their own species. I do not know how anyone could possibly concoct a more specious analogy than you have managed to do here.


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## Max Overhead (Feb 22, 2021)

None of the animals wear masks. None of them wash their hooves or stay away from each other. They are healthy. We are the sick ones, obeying monstrous advise which rails against what a natural, healthy immune system needs to do its job. Here is a quote I found on a radio show which is pertinent. So pertinent that I took the time to transcribe it:

"Whenever I have these young cattle come in they're very fragile so I keep them on their mother's colostrum for five days and then put them on a bottle. Well I've learned that if I separate these cattle out, and I don't let them around the other young calves, and then I put them out in the field they die within weeks. But if I put them together and allow their noses to touch and I allow their diseases to get all over them, and I allow the poop from some other animal to get all over them, they don't die. They're healthy as they can possibly be. And we're washing our dadblanged hands and we think there is a germ problem. There is no germ problem Mr. Harris."


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## jeepgrrl (Jun 3, 2020)

todd_xxxx said:


> I'm not sure why so many people have such a hard time with answers containing phrases like "we think", "we believe", "it may
> 
> * It's a new disease and a new vaccine, there are going to be areas that no one knows the answers to yet. All a person can do is read the available research and information and decide for themselves which is the right decision. *
> 
> ...


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## jeepgrrl (Jun 3, 2020)

nodak3 said:


> What leaves me scratching my head is this:
> 
> The same people who vaccinate their herds, who insist on bleach washing shoes before you enter their barns, who lock their gates to prevent anyone bringing in disease to their herds, who isolate new cattle or hogs or sheep or alpacas or what have you, are the same people here who poo poo the idea of vaccinating humans or mask wearing or hand washing or social distancing.
> 
> ...


I was just thinking about something similar today...I have 3 dogs and 3 outdoor cats that I make absolutely sure are up-to-date on their shots, heartworm and flea preventatives, totally trusting the vet med recommendations, but yet I buck a lot of Covid vaccine-related info that comes from the government. Go figure!


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

We need to keep in mind that NOTHING in science is ever "proven." ...It's just that some explanations (theories/hypotheses) have more observational/experimental evidence in their support than others....And these results always fall into "bell shaped curves," not every measurement being exactly the same....And no matter how solid the evidence that one theory is correct, if there is some evidence that cannot be explained by the theory, then the theory is inadequate.

As Einstein said-- No preponderance of evidence can prove me right, but even one experiment could prove me wrong. 

In regards CoV vaccine-- They seem to be 95% effective....Are you going to be one of the 95% group or the 5% group? You can't tell ahead of time...Would you buy a lottery ticket that was guaranteed to be a winner 95% of the time?


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

doc- said:


> I like to learn things. My opinions are always based on knowledge and not some pre-determined ideology....so I went thru the articles listed in your citation.
> 
> In NONE of them were new fetal stem cells used. The closest any came to supporting your view was that the authors of that page CLAIMED that HEK 293 cells were used in development of the vaccine and then cited several references, NONE of which mentioned HEK 293.
> 
> ...


According to other sources, they can’t get the cells for use in these way from a miscarriage since the poor baby has already passed so that is unlikely. Abortions were still happening before R vs W. 
I am confident in the information share as it has been confirmed in multiple resources over the years. Of course it’s not going to be popular information, it’s too horrible. Many of the companies were pressed on the issue of using baby cell lines (no matter how long ago it is, still an ethical issue to many) and stopped using them but I don’t consume foods from these companies anyway for health reasons and if any were still using them for testing I would not buy from them either. 
People don’t have to believe the facts given but can hopefully understand better why some will refuse the shot for ethical reasons and hopefully be respectful of those individuals freedoms to make that decision. 
It’s too horrible which makes it hard for people to grasp and I understand that. 💔


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

jeepgrrl said:


> I still believe the mystery virus I had in late 2019 was covid. Until my doctor will do the antibody test to prove otherwise I will guess that I already had covid. But I will continue to distance myself from strangers and/or sick people, not necessarily because of covid.


My hubs and I also had the “mystery illness” in January, 2020. The symptoms we had then were dry cough (lasted 6-8 weeks), extreme fatigue, fever, muscle aches. It was highly contagious - he was sick on a Thursday and I was sick by the next evening. When I had COVID-19, my symptoms were dry sinus congestion, loss of taste and smell, and headaches, basically just mild symptoms and much different than the mystery bug. Hubs was worse off than me, he had a dry cough (still does), loss of smell/taste, extreme fatigue and nausea, and very slow to recover. He ended up getting the monoclonal antibody therapy to help speed up his recovery. This time, neither of us ever had a fever. I was definitely sicker with the mystery illness than I was with Covid, but my husband would say he definitely felt worse with COVID-19 b/c of the nausea. Because it has been reported that blood products from late 2019 were testing positive for the Covid-19 antibodies and the symptoms we experienced in January, 2020, we feel that the mystery illness was Covid-19. I wish there was a way to prove that definitively!
[/QUOTE]
Many I talk to (some are family) have had it late 2019 too. One relative’s doctor believes it was around then too.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

GreenLeaf Homestead said:


> According to other sources, they can’t get the cells for use in these way from a miscarriage since the poor baby has already passed so that is unlikely. Abortions were still happening before R vs W.
> I am confident in the information share as it has been confirmed in multiple resources over the years. Of course it’s not going to be popular information, it’s too horrible. Many of the companies were pressed on the issue of using baby cell lines (no matter how long ago it is, still an ethical issue to many) and stopped using them but I don’t consume foods from these companies anyway for health reasons and if any were still using them for testing I would not buy from them either.
> People don’t have to believe the facts given but can hopefully understand better why some will refuse the shot for ethical reasons and hopefully be respectful of those individuals freedoms to make that decision.
> It’s too horrible which makes it hard for people to grasp and I understand that. 💔


\

I would respect your opinion if you would just admit it's based on unproven, arbitrary religious dogma, ie- faith...and if you try to prove it to me, then you must not have faith....That kinda paints you into a corner, doesn't it?


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

wr said:


> How do you know this to be fact? I have no problem at all social distancing and washing my hands. Masks are subjective in my opinion. If someone is under medical advice not to wear one, no layperson, including yourself has the legal right to tell them otherwise, including yourself.
> 
> I accept the opinions of my doctor and I think most here do as well but there is a big difference between discussions with our doctors, who spent years getting sufficient education to dispense advice and you telling me what I need to do. You are not my doctor so you have no legal or moral right to draw conclusions or express any opinions on my health.


I agree, it’s our choice search out medical advice from those doctors we trust with our health.
Personally, I don’t wear a mask and it is for health reasons, because health and healing is a big part of our life now after my daughter was diagnosed with a brain tumor, had unrelated seizures and autism like symptoms (later two healed now). She was later found to be having a hard time detoxing and was very high in toxin load in her body. Masks inhibit our detoxing and cause toxin buildup in the mouth and sinuses so we don’t wear them. That’s our choice due to our health choices And what has worked so well for us. 
We want to work with the microbiome in and around us so we treat our animals and harden the same way we would treat ourselves, in a way that will not harm the beneficial bacteria and so on. So the comment you are replying to may be true for some but aren’t true for all. I know many farmers don’t treat their animals in an “all bacteria is bad” mindset and go towards living synergistically with the beneficial bacteria, fungus and more. 
Incontrast to the other persons comment, I also get confused when people will make a point to get meat, milk and/or eggs from animals that haven’t been given antibiotics, immunizations and so on yet give all of it to their own children. That does blow my mind. ☺ I guess they should just pick one way or another in my mind but they are free to do whatever they see fit.


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

doc- said:


> \
> 
> I would respect your opinion if you would just admit it's based on unproven, arbitrary religious dogma, ie- faith...and if you try to prove it to me, then you must not have faith....That kinda paints you into a corner, doesn't it?


I won’t because it’s not. It’s the facts given by repretable sources that I have found to be repretable over years of sifting through all the information best I could to find the common threads of truth. Not just going to a site and assuming they are right. I don’t want them to be right because then I have to live with the fact i was a part of that and no one likes to find out that they have made choices they wish they could undo but can’t. 

If I were to ask the same question back I would have to ask you to prove that your information isn’t based on money making, mistake hiding, power hungry people who tweak the science to fit their agenda and shut down scientists and doctors who find their science to be faulty and incomplete. 

Crazy example. Multiple labs have done lab tests as follows; fed one group of rats (or mice) cearal from a box, another group just ate the box itself and the ones who ate the cereal died before the ones who ate the box. 
Shows how healthy cereal is. 😜 Yet we won’t hear those studies shared and referenced. FYI, We don’t eat cereal. 😂


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Max Overhead said:


> None of the animals wear masks. None of them wash their hooves or stay away from each other. They are healthy. We are the sick ones, obeying monstrous advise which rails against what a natural, healthy immune system needs to do its job. Here is a quote I found on a radio show which is pertinent. So pertinent that I took the time to transcribe it:
> 
> "Whenever I have these young cattle come in they're very fragile so I keep them on their mother's colostrum for five days and then put them on a bottle. Well I've learned that if I separate these cattle out, and I don't let them around the other young calves, and then I put them out in the field they die within weeks. But if I put them together and allow their noses to touch and I allow their diseases to get all over them, and I allow the poop from some other animal to get all over them, they don't die. They're healthy as they can possibly be. And we're washing our dadblanged hands and we think there is a germ problem. There is no germ problem Mr. Harris."


 If the designer of the mammalian body plan were an engineer, we may well be tempted to fire him and stat over for putting the birth canal so close to the filthy colonic orifice...but on deeper consideration and analysis, there's a distinct survival advantage in the long run to that arrangement.


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

Ye


Max Overhead said:


> None of the animals wear masks. None of them wash their hooves or stay away from each other. They are healthy. We are the sick ones, obeying monstrous advise which rails against what a natural, healthy immune system needs to do its job. Here is a quote I found on a radio show which is pertinent. So pertinent that I took the time to transcribe it:
> 
> "Whenever I have these young cattle come in they're very fragile so I keep them on their mother's colostrum for five days and then put them on a bottle. Well I've learned that if I separate these cattle out, and I don't let them around the other young calves, and then I put them out in the field they die within weeks. But if I put them together and allow their noses to touch and I allow their diseases to get all over them, and I allow the poop from some other animal to get all over them, they don't die. They're healthy as they can possibly be. And we're washing our dadblanged hands and we think there is a germ problem. There is no germ problem Mr. Harris."


👏🏼 Yes! We need to work with the microbiome, not against it!


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

doc- said:


> If the designer of the mammalian body plan were an engineer, we may well be tempted to fire him and stat over for putting the birth canal so close to the filthy colonic orifice...but on deeper consideration and analysis, there's a distinct survival advantage in the long run to that arrangement.


Yes, all this work to keep newborn babies sterile andnnow they find babies suffer from c-sections and that wiping the babies mouth after wiping the mothers lower parts is the best way to protect those c-section babies. 😂 
Time to stop hindering/damaging the gut microbiome with our sterilization practices.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> "The same people who say..." is one of my triggers.
> 
> I call bovine excrement.
> 
> ...


Sometimes you just have to call it out


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

jeepgrrl said:


> Yup, I do what I do and I sure as heck don’t prevent others from making their own decisions, nor do I dictate what others should do, so not sure why you felt the need to drop a censored F bomb on me...after all, it was just a dumb Santa joke, not worth gettin‘ ur tail in a twist over. Peace out.✌


Don't assume that because I posted after you that I was referring to you. The whole country seems to be divided into the two groups I mentioned in my post. It had nothing to do with your Santa joke, and I didn't drop anything on you.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I, personally, will not take the current covid vaccine. Not because I am an anti-vaxxer which I am not. (got my flu shot in September and my tetanus/whooping cough vaccines are up to date) Not because I don't understand science which I do understand more than I get credit for. But because it is my personal choice! I would never object to another person getting a covid vaccine although I did tell my son he NEEDS to do the research. I don't paticipate in "mask shaming" for either side, but I will say something to people who try to run over me when they are going through a door the wrong way. 

IMO, our biggest loss during this whole thing has been the little last scrap of compassion and empathy. People just don't care, unless they are seeking to be offended.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Whether you choose to get the vaccine or not is entirely your choice. We are definitely getting it. Husband already done with both injections. I have had to wait because of conflicting chemo therapy. Everyone we know doing great with the vaccine (Moderna) including the chemo patients ahead of me. 

People are always saying that medicine and science do not always get it right. But nothing and no one ever gets everything right. At least not on the first try. I would not fly in the Wright Brothers plane but that was just the beginning. Engineers, architects, military actions, farmers, manufacturers, computer, car, plane, train designers, police, firemen etc etc etc all make huge mistakes or just do not anticipate problems. And as a result people do suffer injuries or die from what they got wrong. And yet we still give our trust to them. Same should apply to doctors and scientists.

Yes things go wrong but it is not always the science. The huge polio deaths in the US when the vaccine first came out were not because of the actual vaccine but because one manufacturer made a bad batch. Canada decided to trust the vaccine and continued the vaccination program which saved thousands of children. The US then continued on with the vaccination program and as a result polio was basically eradicated saving millions of lives. 

When you think of what medicine has gotten right in the past centuries and now the last decades it is amazing. Our lives are not only insured by the advances (and experiments) but made better. Yes, people die not only from the disease, illness or injury but also from the treatment. Every drug on the market has a list of side effects and possible injuries (up to and including death) and yet every drug description starts off with a phrase such as “ it has been determined by your doctor that the benefits of this drug outweigh the possible side effects”. 

Covid-19 is a brand new virus never seen before. And it is a super intelligent virus that has already varied and mutated to out smart our defenses. And the mutations will continue and worst of all they may combine – the faster transmitting ones combining with the more deadly variants. Already happening but not yet on the news very much. 

What has been accomplished in treatments and now in vaccines in a year is quite miraculous. 

When asked to wear a mask lots of people said “no” because they say if it is their time to die then it is their time to die. This is absolutely their right. I don’t like that attitude as I am a fighter and care about others but if people take that attitude then I think the same attitude would be very helpful for those who are afraid of the vaccine. If it is your time to die when you get the vaccine then it is your time to die but meanwhile the rest of the vaccinated people will be helping to stop the spread of Covid-19 thus saving lives.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

If the time comes that I need to take a vax for covid, I'd prefer the J&J one. I'm at the end of the line for it anyway so hopefully the time frame will be adequate to make an informed decision. Still waiting for some sort of info made available for those of us that carry the antibodies, so far nothing of any consequence has appeared. 

I don't have any feelings one way or another about what or when others decide. With my job (lots of travel) I am required to be vax for multiple problems, which I absolutely keep up to date.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> That is false.
> 
> I will also add because you are new. Topics such as abortion and the discussion of it, is one of the faster ways to get a thread tossed on HT.


You should know!


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

no really said:


> If the time comes that I need to take a vax for covid, I'd prefer the J&J one. I'm at the end of the line for it anyway so hopefully the time frame will be adequate to make an informed decision. Still waiting for some sort of info made available for those of us that carry the antibodies, so far nothing of any consequence has appeared.
> 
> I don't have any feelings one way or another about what or when others decide. With my job (lots of travel) I am required to be vax for multiple problems, which I absolutely keep up to date.


If I have one, it will hopefully be the J&J, but some experts think that Ivermectin might be as good or better than the vaccine as it is thought to be effective against all the variants.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Viruses aren't intelligent; in fact, they may not even be alive.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

JeffreyD said:


> You should know!


Just keep poking the bear, that always turns out well. 
Some things are best left alone.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> Just keep poking the bear, that always turns out well.
> Some things are best left alone.


Hehe, just pointing out facts! Besides, i like poking bears. 😎


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> If I have one, it will hopefully be the J&J, but some experts think that Ivermectin might be as good or better than the vaccine as it is thought to be effective against all the variants.


I do the ivermectin, after talking to a group of doctors from Mexico, they all use it and have for quite some time. 

Interesting activities going on at the border with the catch and release program. We have thousands crossing both at checkpoints and all along the border, these are people from Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador and Mexico. From what I've been told unless they are actively showing signs of illness they are not detained. If Covid was as much of a danger as some in the medical community say, why aren't they speaking out? These people will spread out all over the country.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

GreenLeaf Homestead said:


> I understand that completely but since it isn’t false please don’t “flag” something as false that you are not sure about, especially if you are not going to back your reasoning.
> 
> I was just bringing forth the reason why many will refuse the shot. Just facts. If we can put forth reasons why people will take the shot or reasons why people won’t take the shot than how is my comment any different? Yes, I am new here and I guess I just assumed this was a free speech platform.


If you have concerns about something, you're welcome to contact myself, Shrek or LT2108, who are General Chat moderators.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

no really said:


> I do the ivermectin, after talking to a group of doctors from Mexico, they all use it and have for quite some time.
> 
> Interesting activities going on at the border with the catch and release program. We have thousands crossing both at checkpoints and all along the border, these are people from Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador and Mexico. From what I've been told unless they are actively showing signs of illness they are not detained. If Covid was as much of a danger as some in the medical community say, why aren't they speaking out? These people will spread out all over the country.


Possibly some in the government want to keep the pandemic going.


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

wr said:


> If you have concerns about something, you're welcome to contact myself, Shrek or LT2108, who are General Chat moderators.


Thank you! I really appreciate it!!


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

No matter your stance on the mask, covid (WuFlu or Covaids) this is clever and. for me, on point


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

I took the last month from work where I was required to wear the mask for 8 1/2 hours each day, plus OT

I was coughing up green slime, getting worse, before I left. I am now clear and feel much better. Went to work on Tuesday.
Was suprised how much more difficult it is to breath with the mask. BTW I am healthy and happy, run 3 days a week.

I decide to retire, go back to my farm. Sign at the gate: "*If you need a mask, you don't need to be here. Stay away*"


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## Fieldsendart (Jan 25, 2021)

CKelly78z said:


> The prudent thing for me to do is to observe the sheep who have already gotten the vaccine, for any future signs of trouble.
> 
> Somehow, I have survived this long without contracting the virus while rarely wearing a mask, and only know a few friends that have had it (standard flu symptoms) with full recoveries. I'm thinking the only reason that I will get the vaccine is for the abilities to travel overseas.


Ah, this has been my great sadness since the beginning of this whole debacle — I knew they would tie travel to a vaccine — I said that back in March of last year. This whole “pandemic” has been about control and stripping away every last human right we have. I too am pressed down at the idea of never being able to travel again — I think I’ve come to terms with it. I’ve traveled to many beautiful places overseas and that was always my passion — travel — but, if it means taking that vaccine, I guess I will stay home for the rest of my days and just focus on the beauty of this country, my own property — and of course, family and friends. Not really a bad thing after all ♥


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

In about 6 months the black market will be flooded with fake vaccination cards. Once those are available you'll be able to travel again.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> I took the last month from work where I was required to wear the mask for 8 1/2 hours each day, plus OT
> 
> I was coughing up green slime, getting worse, before I left. I am now clear and feel much better. Went to work on Tuesday.
> Was suprised how much more difficult it is to breath with the mask. BTW I am healthy and happy, run 3 days a week.
> ...


It's interesting that I work in a hospital with 1200+ employees that all wear masks all day, every day since this started, and none of the people I personally know have any of these issues.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Fieldsendart said:


> Ah, this has been my great sadness since the beginning of this whole debacle — I knew they would tie travel to a vaccine — I said that back in March of last year. This whole “pandemic” has been about control and stripping away every last human right we have. I too am pressed down at the idea of never being able to travel again — I think I’ve come to terms with it. I’ve traveled to many beautiful places overseas and that was always my passion — travel — but, if it means taking that vaccine, I guess I will stay home for the rest of my days and just focus on the beauty of this country, my own property — and of course, family and friends. Not really a bad thing after all ♥


If you had the flu this last year then you probably had it. It is not always one foot in the grave.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

todd_xxxx said:


> It's interesting that I work in a hospital with 1200+ employees that all wear masks all day, every day since this started, and none of the people I personally know have any of these issues.


I hadn't noticed it until I went a month without the mask. it surprises me the number of medical people are 100% behind the mask, and how many who are against, but no matter the side, they seem particularly judgmental about it.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> I hadn't noticed it until I went a month without the mask.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> In about 6 months the black market will be flooded with fake vaccination cards. Once those are available you'll be able to travel again.


Soon to be followed by: "Have you been injured by the vaccine? Call 1-800-who's your liar, I mean lawyer now?"


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> In about 6 months the black market will be flooded with fake vaccination cards. Once those are available you'll be able to travel again.


Or -- you could simply get the vaccine.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> Or -- you could simply get the vaccine.


Why ?


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

Keep in mind what the prize here is. BILLION$ Of course that would not tempt them to cut corners on testing for safety and effectiveness, would it? 








Pfizer and Moderna could score $32 billion in Covid-19 vaccine sales -- in 2021 alone


The imminent authorization of Pfizer's Covid-19 vaccine in the United States is a momentous occasion for science, the economy and humanity. The milestone is also a major moneymaker for the companies that developed the vaccines.




www.cnn.com


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Why ?


To get your CDC card.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Nevada said:


> Or -- you could simply get the vaccine.


There is something dark going on in this country and the world.

All this hysteria over the flu is not normal.

Getting the "vaccine" is not prudent.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> To get your CDC card.


Why would I want a CDC card, or even care about covid shots ? 

Those that are concerned get the shots, and are safe from illness. Those that do not get the shot apparently are not worried. 
The information available at this time says the covid vaccines make the symptoms less intense but do not prevent getting or transmitting covid. 

At some point and time the information may change. Even then, why would you want to force someone to get a shot, for a illness you are immune to ?

So what purpose does the CDC card serve ?


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Redlands Okie said:


> So what purpose does the CDC card serve ?


Compliance documentation? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

In order to keep the vulnerable safe, it is possible that at some point in time you will need to prove you are vaccinated to board a plane, enter a school or concert or store, etc.

It isn't question of freedom: you already have the right not to vaccinate with the other vaccines. And we already have the right as a nation to restrict entry to some venues to the unvaccinated. In my memory I have known times schools announced unvaccinated (measles, polio, chickenpox different times) children could not attend school until an outbreak ended.

Covid is not the flu. It is far more deadly. Hopefully if we have enough patriotic americans get the shot quickly enough we won't get to that point. But as it continues to evolve, and as some folks continue to suffer from oppositional defiant disorder and refuse all public health measures including the shot, it could be necessary.

Again, you have every right to refuse the shot and I would defend it. But if this thing gets even more widespread or more deadly, I would not hesitate to send you home....at the point of a gun if need be.

You have every right to make health decisions for yourself, but not for others. When you choose not to vaccinate you may be choosing to opt out of some venues should that need arise.

So when you get the shot, save the card. This is about as evil and malevolent and somehow a communist plot as stopping polio in the USA was.

But some folks also see leprechauns and demons under every bed.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

nodak3 said:


> It isn't question of freedom: you already have the right not to vaccinate with the other vaccines. And we already have the right as a nation to restrict entry to some venues to the unvaccinated. In my memory I have known times schools announced unvaccinated (measles, polio, chickenpox different times) children could not attend school until an outbreak ended.


Except in all of those cases, the vaccine stops you from getting the disease, which is why it's required and it makes sense that it's required. The Covid "vaccine" doesn't stop you from getting anything. Even if everyone is "vaccinated" we are not going to eradicate Covid-19. I'm not comparing it to the flu, but it is here to stay in some form or another, just like the flu. Get ready for your annual Covid shots with whatever mutation is going on in the current year.

Therein sits the difference, and the argument against making it mandatory. Me getting "vaccinated" does nothing more than reduce the severity of any symptoms I may have (although statistically it looks like I would have very minimal if any symptoms anyway), it doesn't stop me from getting the virus. So really, it has no effect on your health at all, unlike me being vaccinated for (measles, polio, chickenpox) and not being able to get it and pass it on to unvaccinated you. You're still exposed to the virus whether you're "vaccinated" or not.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Why would I want a CDC card, or even care about covid shots ?
> 
> Those that are concerned get the shots, and are safe from illness. Those that do not get the shot apparently are not worried.
> The information available at this time says the covid vaccines make the symptoms less intense but do not prevent getting or transmitting covid.
> ...


I don't expect immunization to be required by our government, but will likely be required by private business. There are already travel restrictions to some countries that require an immunization record. I expect some restaurants and hotels to require the covin vaccine. You might also be required to have it for employment at some companies.

But I didn't get it for any of those reasons. I got it because I want to see this pandemic end. I feel like I did my part by getting the vaccine.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

But the government is releasing illegals into the US without a vaccine and some have tested positive for covid.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

All vaccines fight the virus when it infects your body. They call it immunity but in reality it gives your cells the ability to fight off the infection. Sometimes very quickly and some times not as quickly. 

These vaccines have not yet been proven to provide quick immunity to our cells because they focused on getting the info about whether they would hurt you first. The goal is to fight it fast enough to prevent it from being infectious to others but they don't have that data yet.

Reducing the symptoms is a big thing if it prevents death.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

How do vaccines work?


Learn more in part one of our vaccine explainer series.




www.uchicagomedicine.org





This is worth watching.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

nodak3 said:


> In order to keep the vulnerable safe, it is possible that at some point in time you will need to prove you are vaccinated to board a plane, enter a school or concert or store, etc.
> 
> It isn't question of freedom: you already have the right not to vaccinate with the other vaccines. And we already have the right as a nation to restrict entry to some venues to the unvaccinated. In my memory I have known times schools announced unvaccinated (measles, polio, chickenpox different times) children could not attend school until an outbreak ended.
> 
> ...


COVID IS THE FLU AND IT IS NOT MORE DEADLY. 

What do you know about the shots? Controversy over the shots is not published (MSM will ban you), also, there is treatment for the covid IF the particular practice will allow it and it is early enough.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

painterswife said:


> All vaccines fight the virus when it infects your body. They call it immunity but in reality it gives your cells the ability to fight off the infection. Sometimes very quickly and some times not as quickly.
> 
> These vaccines have not yet been proven to provide quick immunity to our cells because they focused on getting the info about whether they would hurt you first. The goal is to fight it fast enough to prevent it from being infectious to others but they don't have that data yet.
> 
> Reducing the symptoms is a big thing if it prevents death.


If you are afraid, stay home, get the flu. Do not try and make me stay home or get the shot. That IS an abridgment of my rights.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> COVID IS THE FLU AND IT IS NOT MORE DEADLY.
> 
> What do you know about the shots? Controversy over the shots is not published (MSM will ban you), also, there is treatment for the covid IF the particular practice will allow it and it is early enough.


It is more deadly and more infectious. We have not had a regular flu kill or hospitalized as many people.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

nodak3 said:


> In order to keep the vulnerable safe, it is possible that at some point in time you will need to prove you are vaccinated to board a plane, enter a school or concert or store, etc.
> 
> It isn't question of freedom: you already have the right not to vaccinate with the other vaccines. And we already have the right as a nation to restrict entry to some venues to the unvaccinated. In my memory I have known times schools announced unvaccinated (measles, polio, chickenpox different times) children could not attend school until an outbreak ended.
> 
> ...


Ah, I live outside of Seattle, and the protests are not "mostly peaceful", nor is this "pandemic" not political. Baaa...


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

painterswife said:


> It is more deadly and more infectious. We have not had a regular flu kill or hospitalized as many people.



How many people has that been? Statistics are impossible to get. There was a greater death rate up front, hence the "novel" descriptor for the virus. Stopping the use of chloroquine (not sure about the spelling) is safe, effective, proven, and cheap. Tens of thousands die from the flu HERE, in the USA every year. I can't paint to save my life, but I do know a little about virus' and I can read.

Honestly, if you are afraid, stay home, DO NOT PUNISH EVERYONE ELSE.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> What do you know about the shots?


You're telling those of us who have had the vaccine that you know more about it than we do.

Why is it that you don't want the public to get vaccinated? i know that your knee-jerk reaction will be that you are only saying that you don't want it, and the rest of us are free to do what we want. But in addition to not taking the vaccine, you're also posting here about it. So it does seem that there is some level of evangelizing.

So again I ask; why don't you want people to take the vaccine?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> There was a greater death rate up front, hence the "novel" descriptor for the virus.


The term 'novel' indicates that it's new, something we haven't dealt with before.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> How many people has that been? Statistics are impossible to get. There was a greater death rate up front, hence the "novel" descriptor for the virus. Stopping the use of chloroquine (not sure about the spelling) is safe, effective, proven, and cheap. Tens of thousands die from the flu HERE, in the USA every year. I can't paint to save my life, but I do know a little about virus' and I can read.
> 
> Honestly, if you are afraid, stay home, DO NOT PUNISH EVERYONE ELSE.


I have not asked you to stay home or do anything, so don't put that on me. There is a big difference between 10's of thousands of deaths and 100's of thousands.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

no really said:


> But the government is releasing illegals into the US without a vaccine and some have tested positive for covid.


@nodak3 has volunteered to send them home at gunpoint, if I read her post correctly.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Hiro said:


> @nodak3 has volunteered to send them home at gunpoint, if I read her post correctly.


I think you're right, glad we have a volunteer.. LOL


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> COVID IS THE FLU AND IT IS NOT MORE DEADLY.
> 
> What do you know about the shots? Controversy over the shots is not published (MSM will ban you), also, there is treatment for the covid IF the particular practice will allow it and it is early enough.


NO IT ISN'T THE FLU AND IT IS MORE DEADLY. Does that make me correct because I yelled it? I can hazard a guess that I know more about the vaccine, and covid, than you do. Maybe I don't, but I work at a hospital where we have immunized hundreds of people, and treated hundreds with covid. Just over 400 last time I checked. That doesn't make me right, but it does mean I have first hand experience in a setting that you do not. It means I have seen more people with Covid than you have. It means I've seen the recovery times of more people than you have. I because I have the ability to read and comprehend what I am reading, I can tell you with certainty that Covid isn't the flu. If you want that badly to minimize it, call it a cold. You'll still be wrong, but closer.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

nodak3 said:


> In order to keep the vulnerable safe, it is possible that at some point in time you will need to prove you are vaccinated to board a plane, enter a school or concert or store, etc.
> 
> It isn't question of freedom: you already have the right not to vaccinate with the other vaccines. And we already have the right as a nation to restrict entry to some venues to the unvaccinated. In my memory I have known times schools announced unvaccinated (measles, polio, chickenpox different times) children could not attend school until an outbreak ended.
> 
> ...


I wonder if it is really more deadly or just more infectious? What I mean is, if the regular flu was this infectious, wouldn't the number of deaths in nursing homes also have increased dramatically? The best way to get a clear picture of the death rate for Covid-19 as compared to the flu is to eliminate people in care facilities and see if there is still a difference in death rates.

Getting the vaccine is not a red, white, and blue thing, or the teams who are and aren't getting vaccinated would be reversed.

If NIH and CDC had been truthful from the beginning, there wouldn't be so much distrust. They act like the goal is to get everyone vaccinated and not treat people who are sick with Covid-19. As so many have said, it didn't have to be this way. HCQ is helpful if taken early enough, vitamin D helps, quercetin and zinc helps, Ivermectin helps, but the FDA, NIH, and CDC sat on their hands for the last year.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

There are reports now that vitamin d is not helpful with Covid.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

But selenium might be.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I'll keep taking my vitamin D and the selenium too.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

Hiro said:


> @nodak3 has volunteered to send them home at gunpoint, if I read her post correctly.


thank you, I literally laughed out loud. It's helpful these days.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

If you have had the shot, and your protected, why does it matter what anyone else does ?

Not seen a answer to this on the thread or elsewhere. Did I miss something? 







P.s. With the stuff going on in our capital, and what its allowing to happen in this country, please leave the lame patriotic lingo out of it.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Redlands Okie said:


> If you have had the shot, and your protected, why does it matter what anyone else does ?


That's a perfectly valid question if you don't give a **** about anyone but yourself. But I've had the shot. It still isn't known if I can carry the virus and give it to someone else. Since I don't want to risk killing someone else, or even just making them sick, it matters what other people do as well. Same reason I still social distance. Why bother, when I can't catch it right?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

todd_xxxx said:


> That's a perfectly valid question if you don't give a **** about anyone but yourself. But I've had the shot. It still isn't known if I can carry the virus and give it to someone else. Since I don't want to risk killing someone else, or even just making them sick, it matters what other people do as well. Same reason I still social distance. Why bother, when I can't catch it right?


There are many times in the last year I've been so grateful for the social distancing mandates, with or without covid. As time goes by and the mental health of many is being affected it is good to have a buffer.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Nevada said:


> The term 'novel' indicates that it's new, something we haven't dealt with before.


Exactly


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

todd_xxxx said:


> That's a perfectly valid question if you don't give a **** about anyone but yourself. But I've had the shot. It still isn't known if I can carry the virus and give it to someone else. Since I don't want to risk killing someone else, or even just making them sick, it matters what other people do as well. Same reason I still social distance. Why bother, when I can't catch it right?


Wouldn't it make more sense for people who are "at risk" to stay home and get on with our lives, than for all of us to stop and wait for everyone to be "safe"?

Parts of the world do not like the US and they are not waiting around for us.

(and Todd, let's us agree to disagree)


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

The problem with covid is you don't know who is "at risk" until they get seriously ill. A very large percentage of deaths were among nursing home residents. Staying home didn't work very well for them.


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## Max Overhead (Feb 22, 2021)

People I know are getting the jab without knowing its ingredients or how it works or what the long-term effects are. They are not acting with any native intelligence, because seemingly they now have cloud-based brains. Employees are being pressured by their bosses who are terrified of what non-compliance can mean for their businesses. Our head chef is now out sick for the last two days about two weeks after his jab. Everybody rushes to inform me that he tested negative for covid and I have to suppress a laugh because that was the last thing on my mind. People who recommend the jab to all comers should pay attention to the VAERS stats in their respective states and keep in mind that only an estimated 1% of people with side effects self-report them. Telling others to get the jab (or wear a mask) is dispensing medical advice without a license which is a crime, which means our politicians should be in jail, but they're not for some reason. Telling people they aren't essential and can't work is just pure communism. Telling people you'll send them home at gun-point if they're unvaccinated is violently psychotic.
As everyone ought to know by now, the inventor of the PCR test never intended it to be used to diagnose anything, and, besides, called out Dr. Fauci for what he really is. Tanzania and Belarus and Sweden were the only exceptions to the lockdown mania. Belarus and Tanzania turned down bribes (euphemistically referred to as covid aid) which was tied to their commitment to locking down their people. Actually I think Tanzania just took the money, tested some fruit and some goats with the PCR, got positive results and publicized the fact. Interesting case of trolling the trolls. As the numbers come out the people who pay attention realize that 2020 was no more deadly than any other year, except insofar as it crushed small and medium sized businesses, crushed liberties, and enriched the world's billionaires by ~25%. Influenza and pneumonia also disappeared around the world, except perhaps for in Belarus, Tanzania and Sweden.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Denmark, Norway and Iceland suspend use of AstraZeneca Covid vaccine over reports of blood clots


"It is important to emphasize that we have not opted out of the AstraZeneca vaccine, but that we are putting it on hold," the country's National Board of Health said.




www.cnbc.com





LONDON — Denmark, Norway and Iceland announced Thursday they will temporarily suspend the use of the coronavirus vaccine developed by AstraZeneca and the University of Oxford.

The Danish Health Authority said it would temporarily stop using the shot in its vaccination program as a precaution “after reports of severe cases of blood clots in people who have been vaccinated with the COVID-19 vaccine from AstraZeneca.”


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

I believe people are smart enough to listen to both sides of the argument and make their own decisions. Unlike google and Facebook who think people are too dumb to make up their own minds and need a few people with media power to tell them what to think.
This doctor gives a perspective that many here probably agree with and many others may have not even seen/heard due to freedom of speech censorship. This doctor talks about things that many Doctors and scientists have seen and learned, and that many parents and individuals have experienced personally. But freedom of speech and freedom to tell our stories has been taken away. So don’t think what she is saying here is all new and radical information. It’s not. People should be free to believe these medical professionals or the other medical professionals. That’s what we used to call freedom. 









Banned from YouTube: Dr. Simone Gold shares the truth about the COVID-19 vaccines


Dr. Simone Gold is one of the Frontline Doctors who has been speaking the truth about COVID-19, the treatment options such as hydroxychloroquine, and the newly released vaccines. This video was just p




rumble.com


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

Max Overhead said:


> People I know are getting the jab without knowing its ingredients or how it works or what the long-term effects are. They are not acting with any native intelligence, because seemingly they now have cloud-based brains. Employees are being pressured by their bosses who are terrified of what non-compliance can mean for their businesses. Our head chef is now out sick for the last two days about two weeks after his jab. Everybody rushes to inform me that he tested negative for covid and I have to suppress a laugh because that was the last thing on my mind. People who recommend the jab to all comers should pay attention to the VAERS stats in their respective states and keep in mind that only an estimated 1% of people with side effects self-report them. Telling others to get the jab (or wear a mask) is dispensing medical advice without a license which is a crime, which means our politicians should be in jail, but they're not for some reason. Telling people they aren't essential and can't work is just pure communism. Telling people you'll send them home at gun-point if they're unvaccinated is violently psychotic.
> As everyone ought to know by now, the inventor of the PCR test never intended it to be used to diagnose anything, and, besides, called out Dr. Fauci for what he really is. Tanzania and Belarus and Sweden were the only exceptions to the lockdown mania. Belarus and Tanzania turned down bribes (euphemistically referred to as covid aid) which was tied to their commitment to locking down their people. Actually I think Tanzania just took the money, tested some fruit and some goats with the PCR, got positive results and publicized the fact. Interesting case of trolling the trolls. As the numbers come out the people who pay attention realize that 2020 was no more deadly than any other year, except insofar as it crushed small and medium sized businesses, crushed liberties, and enriched the world's billionaires by ~25%. Influenza and pneumonia also disappeared around the world, except perhaps for in Belarus, Tanzania and Sweden.


👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 Yes! People ignore the deaths and injuries from the vaccines and ignore the fact you stated that VAERS was audited and found to only catch 1% of vaccine injuries and deaths.
“They” only care about lives lost from COVID [or the number of people who tested positive] or anything else they can label as COVID like someone my cousin new who’s dad died from a heart attack (not sick at all) and the cause of death on the certificate was COVID. 
All lives should matter, not just the ones that push an agenda. 😞
People are claiming we don’t care about others if we don’t get the shot but with the information I and other like me have found when searching shows us that true community immunity can only come from wild strains of a illness. They have found 100% vaxxed places like a military ship and a 100% vaxxed school have outbreaks of one of the diseases they were vaxxed for. So for me and others it’s out of love for my community that I don’t want the fake immunity that doesn’t protect. 
Babies aren’t getting immunity of all the normal diseases from mom anymore like years past because mom was given a shot when she was born that has now worn off. Leaving no natural antibodies for the mom to pass to her baby during pregnancy and breastfeeding. Babies are left unprotected since their immune systems are not fully developed until age 2 or so and the shots given prior to 2 are unable to be as effective as they should be due to the immature immunity. Likewise the chicken pox vaccine has caused the elderly to now become vulnerable to shingles; instead of getting natural boosters of immunity to shingles by being exposed to children with chickenpox throughout their life. Modern immunizations keep causing issues that they, lucky for them, have to try and fix with more shots. 

SIDS deaths Dropped so fast and more than ever before early last year when children were unable to go to their well child checkups. They blame SIDS on parents but all those children were with their parents more than usual during the shutdown and the only change was their immunizations were delayed. So many babies saved by the fact they were not able to go for their well child appointment. Yet no one hears about the drop is SIDS.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Lots of issues with false claims in that post.

I broke my arm, and typing a rebuttal is too much work, so I will just address one. The shot that prevents mothers from passing antibodies to their babies is false. Simply and utterly false.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I was going to respond to those two posts but decided not to waste my time. That antivaxer misinformation is just wrong and I doubt there is any proof that could be provided that would lead the poster to look past its lies.


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Lots of issues with false claims in that post.
> 
> I broke my arm, and typing a rebuttal is too much work, so I will just address one. The shot that prevents mothers from passing antibodies to their babies is false. Simply and utterly false.


I didn’t say there is a shot that blocks moms from passing on antibodies. I said that when people get shots as a child is usually no longer immunized when an adult (becomes the effectiveness of the shots wear off typically around 10-15 years) but if the mom gets the natural virus as a child then that immunity usually last a lifetime and is therefore past on to the baby through breast milk. But I’m sure all the proof I have of all of what I stated wouldn’t change your mind. Vaccines are the new religion and are sadly not based on good and unbiased science. I wish they were. I wish they didn’t harm my baby girl. I wish all my time with neurologists, neurosurgeons, oncologists, nurses and other doctors grew my confidence in modern medicine and immunizations but they did the opposite. I wish the answer to all our health problems came in a shot with a quick little poke but they didn’t for us and they didn’t for the thousands of children and people who have experienced the side effects. Most doctors will say the complications happen in only 1 in 10,000 yet when VAERS was audited it was discovered that only about 1% of injuries are every reported. That means that whole “1 in 10,000” estimate is completely off. Our own pediatrician said he has seen the damage that the flu shot has done on all of his patients (he is the main MD not just pediatrician) and he refills his own shots with saline before having the nurses give him his flu shot. He said not to tell the nurses. Many doctors see the dangers but can’t say anything or they will loose their vaccine refunds or worse their license. What is fine for some people isn’t fine for all people. Everyone has a very unique body that reacts differently to Everything; foods, medications, herbs and yes, even vaccines. No one can say it is safe and effective for everyone and people should be allowed to be aware of concerns, possibly complications and big picture, community effects that have been seen over long term use. People are easy to label and dismiss information because they simply label someone something. Anti vaxxers don’t get vaccines so if I was an anti vaxxed why would I have vaccinated my first two children and let myself get a vaccine after having my third? That’s not the actions of an “anti vaxxer” that’s the actions someone who believes vaccines are effective and safe even after family warned about the possible problems. I believed our pediatrician would have told us if there was any concerns with them yet he couldn’t risk his job so didn’t. I’m sure you don’t want people labeling you and others religious vacciners and therefore not worth talking to and not worth discussing these differences with.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GreenLeaf Homestead said:


> I believe people are smart enough to listen to both sides of the argument and make their own decisions.


Seriously?

But you neglected to provide any background on the good doctor. She's a right-wing extremist with an agenda, who has been arrested for unlawfully entering the capitol on Jan 6th. Consider the source.









'Wilful ignorance': doctor who joined Capitol attack condemned for Covid falsehoods


Experts denounce Simone Gold, charged for participating in riot, who leads conservative group America’s Frontline Doctors




www.theguardian.com


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Nevada said:


> Seriously?
> 
> But you neglected to provide any background on the good doctor. She's a right-wing extremist with an agenda, who has been arrested for unlawfully entering the capitol on Jan 6th. Consider the source.
> 
> ...


I purposely did not post that because it will take the thread towards politics. Not the place for that Nevada.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GreenLeaf Homestead said:


> he is the main MD not just pediatrician


What does that mean?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

painterswife said:


> I purposely did not post that because it will take the thread towards politics. Not the place for that Nevada.


I wasn't trying to be political. The poster suggested that the good doctor was speaking purely as a physician, which isn';t true. She's a political animal and HT members have a right to know that.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

For those PC folks here who are worried about turning this into a political discussion-- it IS a political discussion. The science doesn't support the govt stance. All their recommendations & regs are oriented towards a political goal-- even if that is merely to Protect Their Buttts.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

What the physician is, is a scammer using all possible paths to sell snake oil to the vulnerable.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> Seriously?
> 
> But you neglected to provide any background on the good doctor. She's a right-wing extremist with an agenda, who has been arrested for unlawfully entering the capitol on Jan 6th. Consider the source.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...mation-simone-gold-americas-frontline-doctors


She is a respectable doctor who leads a group of practicing physicians who have found that there are treatments for Covid-19 that the government for some reason refuses to explore. Several studies have been conducted that appear to have no purpose other than to reach a conclusion these treatments don't work. For example, HCQ only works during the viral stage of the disease, yet they run a study giving HCQ to critically ill patients that are past the viral stage and get the result they wanted. Then they get a medical journal to publish the results and the liberal media parrots that HCQ doesn't work.

Like many others at the Jan 6 rally, when she arrived at the Capitol the doors were open and there was no security advising people to stay out. She went in along with others who thought Congress had decided to hear their complaints. She did nothing other than deliver her speech.

The doctors in the Front Line Covid-19 Critical Care Alliance are some of the top clinicians in the world with hundreds of published articles. They are the elite of the elite. Their protocols have saved thousands of lives and would have saved hundreds of thousands if the government had listened to them. Several countries have officially approved Ivermectin as a prophylactic as well as a treatment for Covid-19 based on the recommendations of the FLCCC and their analysis of Ivermectin trials.

The government has an agenda that includes trying to turn heroes like Dr. Gold into domestic terrorists and that is a dangerous policy to pursue. Whether she is left or right is irrelevant. Judge her based on what she has recommended. It certainly can't be any worse than what Fauci has said.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> What the physician is, is a scammer using all possible paths to sell snake oil to the vulnerable.


That could have been posted the moment after Fauci finished his first public appearance as the Flu Czar.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

People universally want pandemic restrictions lifted, the economy back on track, and schools to reopen. The way to make that happen is for as many people to get vaccinated as possible, as quickly as possible. The way I see it, you can either be part of the answer or be part of the problem.

But if you chose to decline the vaccine I don't want to hear any snivelling about restrictions not being lifted. This is your opportunity to join with other Americans and rise to the occasion so we can beat this thing.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> The way I see it, you can either be part of the answer or be part of the problem.
> 
> But if you chose to decline the vaccine I don't want to hear any snivelling about restrictions not being lifted. This is your opportunity to join with other Americans and rise to the occasion so we can beat this thing.


The way you see things is perfectly ok, for you.
I wouldn't consider business owners who have lost everything they worked for and given a $600 check for their trouble to be snivelers. Is that really your view of them?


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> The way you see things is perfectly ok, for you.
> I wouldn't consider business owners who have lost everything they worked for and given a $600 for their trouble to be snivelers. Is that really your view of them?


Bad things happen to good people. It's a fact of life. But we're talking about human lives being lost if we reopen too early. When it comes to a choice of human lives or businesses surviving, human lives have to take priority.

You ask me to try to see it from the business owner's point of view, but maybe you should look at it from the point of view of someone who lost a loved one to covid. Are you going to tell them that keping a restaurant in business is worth the death of their loved one?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Just asking, can you point to a restaurant that was proven to have caused the death of anyone?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Maybe you could do a little research using google fu and check on the folks that committed suicide due to covid restrictions shutting down their livelihoods.
Would that be considered just bad things that happen to good people?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Just asking, can you point to a restaurant that was proven to have caused the death of anyone?


You won't watch it, but this clip discusses the dangers at bars and even churches.


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Nevada said:


> People universally want pandemic restrictions lifted, the economy back on track, and schools to reopen. The way to make that happen is for as many people to get vaccinated as possible, as quickly as possible. The way I see it, you can either be part of the answer or be part of the problem.
> 
> But if you chose to decline the vaccine I don't want to hear any snivelling about restrictions not being lifted. This is your opportunity to join with other Americans and rise to the occasion so we can beat this thing.


Comrade we will comply!


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Nevada said:


> You won't watch it, but this clip discusses the dangers at bars and even churches.


I didn't watch it. I've been in three rental houses with positive cases in the last year. Mom spent five days in the hospital with it. No mask for me when she got home. I spent more time with her in the last few weeks than I have in 20 years.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

TripleD said:


> I didn't watch it. I've been in three rental houses with positive cases in the last year. Mom spent five days in the hospital with it. No mask for me when she got home. I spent more time with her in the last few weeks than I have in 20 years.


I have to take back one part. The first one I went in with a tyvec suit and rode on the back of the truck to the office...


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> People universally want pandemic restrictions lifted, the economy back on track, and schools to reopen. The way to make that happen is for as many people to get vaccinated as possible, as quickly as possible. The way I see it, you can either be part of the answer or be part of the problem.
> 
> But if you chose to decline the vaccine I don't want to hear any snivelling about restrictions not being lifted. This is your opportunity to join with other Americans and rise to the occasion so we can beat this thing.


Fortunately, the federal government doesn't have the authority to enact statewide restrictions. States with no or minimum restrictions have fared no worse than states with extreme restrictions.


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## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

Nevada said:


> Bad things happen to good people. It's a fact of life. But we're talking about human lives being lost if we reopen too early. When it comes to a choice of human lives or businesses surviving, human lives have to take priority.
> 
> You ask me to try to see it from the business owner's point of view, but maybe you should look at it from the point of view of someone who lost a loved one to covid. Are you going to tell them that keping a restaurant in business is worth the death of their loved one?


I lost loved ones to COVID. I miss them terribly and my family still grieve for them. I am able to look past my personal tragedies and consider what I believe is best for society, this country, and human kind in general. As heartless as it may sound this really comes down to lives (C19 deaths) vs lives (deaths of despair, economic devastation, family hardships, unintended and unseen impacts on our children and young people, etc, etc). The conclusion I and most of my family has come to is this country's and most of the world's response was and is excessive, lockdowns were and are a mistake and the perpetuation of disproportionate fear is absolutely irresponsible. Outcomes are rarely positive when responding in a reactionary manner with little to no consideration for the cascading consequences and without utilizing some kind of holistic risk vs benefits assessment.

eta: I do not believe people should be pressured into getting the vaccine nor do I believe it will hasten the lessening of restrictions or the fear mongering that has become the norm. For the record, I will not be getting the vaccine.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Brilliantly written. Exactly correct.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> Bad things happen to good people. It's a fact of life. But we're talking about human lives being lost if we reopen too early. When it comes to a choice of human lives or businesses surviving, human lives have to take priority.
> 
> You ask me to try to see it from the business owner's point of view, but maybe you should look at it from the point of view of someone who lost a loved one to covid. Are you going to tell them that keping a restaurant in business is worth the death of their loved one?


I find your insensitivity callous and very selective. 

You’re quick to pressure others to meet your expectations but equally as quick to dismiss any collateral casualties that don’t fit your narrative and it remains one of my big concerns. 

‘For the greater good’ is the anthem. For the greater good, we have destroyed as many lives as you think we have saved. 

Those people matter to somebody too and I’m sure they are comforted knowing that you feel no empathy at all.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Bad things happen to good people. It's a fact of life. But we're talking about human lives being lost if we reopen too early. When it comes to a choice of human lives or businesses surviving, human lives have to take priority.
> 
> You ask me to try to see it from the business owner's point of view, but maybe you should look at it from the point of view of someone who lost a loved one to covid. Are you going to tell them that keping a restaurant in business is worth the death of their loved one?



Your concern for human life seems selective to me. I've never seen you oppose abortion. I don't want to see any unnecessary deaths at all, but everyone dies. We know the vast majority of COVID deaths were elderly and/or people with serious health issues. At my age of 73 I would not justify destroying of lives and lively hoods of younger people solely to protect me. But your views are different and that is fine. You come at it from a pro big liberal government view. My view is freedom oriented.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> You won't watch it, but this clip discusses the dangers at bars and even churches.


Bars were dangerous before anyone put a band on their arm and declared them so.
Even moreso as the night progresses and it has nothing to do with a virus.

Churches are absolutes. You'll go in and you'll learn your fate, whether you like it or not.
If you aren't comfortable with granny sneezing into the offering plate then don't take any money out of it.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

sharkerbaby said:


> holistic risk vs benefits assessment.


Have you done this assessment? What were the results?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I have. Open the businesses. Sent children back to school.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Nevada said:


> Have you done this assessment? What were the results?


Yep! I said a year ago it had to work it's way through. I did lose a good friend due to complications . The only thing good for me so far is the rent is collecting is in the lobby. That won't change!!!


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> People universally want pandemic restrictions lifted, the economy back on track, and schools to reopen. The way to make that happen is for as many people to get vaccinated as possible, as quickly as possible. The way I see it, you can either be part of the answer or be part of the problem.
> 
> But if you chose to decline the vaccine I don't want to hear any snivelling about restrictions not being lifted. This is your opportunity to join with other Americans and rise to the occasion so we can beat this thing.


The vaccine has not been needed to keep the economy going and is not needed to open the economy back up. Any and all who wished to practice the personal safety measures of their choice could and can do so. That way the sniveling would be limited. 

Many have already raised to the occasion. You know, those “essential” lawn care workers, grocery baggers, house painters, and many others who “essential job” could not be delayed or interrupted.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> Bad things happen to good people. It's a fact of life. But we're talking about human lives being lost if we reopen too early. When it comes to a choice of human lives or businesses surviving, human lives have to take priority.
> 
> You ask me to try to see it from the business owner's point of view, but maybe you should look at it from the point of view of someone who lost a loved one to covid. Are you going to tell them that keping a restaurant in business is worth the death of their loved one?


Restaurant workers and customers are not forced into the business. Same for many others. You know, free choice. Well it used to be anyway.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

GTX63 said:


> If you aren't comfortable with granny sneezing into the offering plate then don't take any money out of it.


I just spit all over my tablet screen!


----------



## Max Overhead (Feb 22, 2021)

Time to open back up. Those who love the lockdown should stay home and should work from home (and complain from home). Those who want to live like free creatures should leave their dwellings and seek employment. I'll point out that fake science has been used in this scamdemic the same way it is used with so-called climate change. It's all big business. Don't listen to bought people. Listen to intelligent people (who are not usually bought, and are usually harder to find). Thomas Sheridan, Dave Cullen, Alan Watt (Just died , and etc.) The same news org. that sells pharmaceutical ads like they're giving out candy at halloween will not criticize pharmaceuticals because it eviscerates their bottom line. This should be self-evident.


----------



## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

Nevada said:


> Seriously?
> 
> But you neglected to provide any background on the good doctor. She's a right-wing extremist with an agenda, who has been arrested for unlawfully entering the capitol on Jan 6th. Consider the source.
> 
> ...


Did you hear her side of the story about going into the capital? Either way, everything she is saying lines up with what I have been deeply researching since 2015. I don’t just listen to someone and decide what they say is truth. She is a pro-vaccine doctor who is saying what I have researched to be true for years. As much as I do take the credibility of people seriously I have found the information credible enough not to worry about what main stream media labels people just because they want people to dismiss facts for the money hungry fictional information pushed on the public by money making pharmaceuticals, paid off scientists and patten holders like Fauci.


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

painterswife said:


> I purposely did not post that because it will take the thread towards politics. Not the place for that Nevada.


The video was for the medical information only. 🙂 Hopefully people can view it as such. So much information that can get very scientific and hard for people to understand and I chose her talk only because she lays medical and scientific information put in terms people can understand.


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

Nevada said:


> What does that mean?


Sorry he is a D.O so he does family medicine, internal medicine, pediatrics, and is an OBGYN.


----------



## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

sharkerbaby said:


> I lost loved ones to COVID. I miss them terribly and my family still grieve for them. I am able to look past my personal tragedies and consider what I believe is best for society, this country, and human kind in general. As heartless as it may sound this really comes down to lives (C19 deaths) vs lives (deaths of despair, economic devastation, family hardships, unintended and unseen impacts on our children and young people, etc, etc). The conclusion I and most of my family has come to is this country's and most of the world's response was and is excessive, lockdowns were and are a mistake and the perpetuation of disproportionate fear is absolutely irresponsible. Outcomes are rarely positive when responding in a reactionary manner with little to no consideration for the cascading consequences and without utilizing some kind of holistic risk vs benefits assessment.
> 
> eta: I do not believe people should be pressured into getting the vaccine nor do I believe it will hasten the lessening of restrictions or the fear mongering that has become the norm. For the record, I will not be getting the vaccine.


Sorry for your losses! All loss is heartbreaking. 💔 
Thank you for speaking up about the other lives lost, they are all important and it’s sad that people don’t want to hear and care about all lives not only the ones who are, sad to even say it but, “popular”. All life lost is a tragedy and should be considered as you so well explained. 
Again, sorry for your losses.


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## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

poppy said:


> Your concern for human life seems selective to me. I've never seen you oppose abortion. I don't want to see any unnecessary deaths at all, but everyone dies. We know the vast majority of COVID deaths were elderly and/or people with serious health issues. At my age of 73 I would not justify destroying of lives and lively hoods of younger people solely to protect me. But your views are different and that is fine. You come at it from a pro big liberal government view. My view is freedom oriented.


Exactly, sad to see people dismiss the lives of babies (not saying he did it, just meaning in general) but call us uncaring for those at risk of this disease when we all care about all lives and their freedoms. Giving up everyone’s freedoms for a few people to have false security shows how altered (thanks to government education) the thinking and understanding of people. So sad.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> Bad things happen to good people. It's a fact of life. But we're talking about human lives being lost if we reopen too early. When it comes to a choice of human lives or businesses surviving, human lives have to take priority.
> 
> You ask me to try to see it from the business owner's point of view, but maybe you should look at it from the point of view of someone who lost a loved one to covid. Are you going to tell them that keping a restaurant in business is worth the death of their loved one?


There have been a lot of casualties that I'm not able to shrug off as 'bad things happening to good people.'

Surgeries and medical procedures have been cancelled, resulting in the deaths of many more good people. I recently listened to an interview with a leading oncologist, who indicated that because of this, Cancer diagnosis are also way below annual averages. 

While some may conclude that covid has also cured cancer, he seems to feel those late diagnosis later on this year will lead to the deaths of many more good people. 

Cause of death for many seniors locked in nursing homes and long term care facilities is now being listed as 'failure to thrive due to isolation.' I'm sure they're good people too and I'm sure the lockdowns are cold comfort to them. 

Suicides and opiate overdoses are higher than ever. I'm sure they're good people too.

Domestic abuse is also extremely high with women and children being beaten daily. I'm sure they also take comfort in the fact that you feel that bad things happen to good people. 

Our doctors are so busy following government established protocols that they can't properly diagnose patients. A close friend has been in 3 times over 6 months to have swollen lymph nodes checked by a doctor standing 6 feet away from him. I know he's a good person and deserves much better than the what he's going to learn eventually. 

The collateral damage is far too high to pass off as bad things happening to good people and I only touched on a few of those good people dealing with bad things. 

The last count I read, indicated that the 5 who had passed in our province from covid were between the ages of 80 and 100. The collateral casualties to save 5 people seems awfully high to me.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wr said:


> The collateral damage is far too high to pass off as bad things happening to good people and I only touched on a few of those good people dealing with bad things.


It would be interesting to see a study on coronavirus deaths vs collateral damage. I suspect that coronavirus killed a lot more, based on life expectancy in the US dropping by a full year due to the pandemic.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Now that is real honesty there and I have to credit you with coming right out and willingly accepting the measuring and valuation of human life based on their COD.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Now that is real honesty there and I have to credit you with coming right out and willingly accepting the measuring and valuation of human life based on their COD.


I have no doubt that covid poses a more serious threat to American lives than so-called collateral damage deaths.

This pandemic has had tragic consequences, especially in the US. Unique to the US, covid response was impacted by devisiveness, resulting in an explosion of covid deaths compared to the rest of the world. It didn't have to happen. Even common sense measures like wearing face masks and getting vaccinated became partisan issues.

As I said, it didn't have to happen.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> I have no doubt that covid poses a more serious threat to American lives than so-called collateral damage deaths.
> 
> This pandemic has had tragic consequences, especially in the US. Unique to the US, covid response was impacted by devisiveness, resulting in an explosion of covid deaths compared to the rest of the world. It didn't have to happen. Even common sense measures like wearing face masks and getting vaccinated became partisan issues.
> 
> As I said, it didn't have to happen.


You do realize that right here in the US, there are two similar sized states that used opposing techniques and guidelines when it came to this virus, and the results were about the same, right?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> Unique to the US, covid response was impacted by devisiveness, resulting in an explosion of covid deaths compared to the rest of the world. It didn't have to happen. Even common sense measures like wearing face masks and getting vaccinated became partisan issues.
> As I said, it didn't have to happen.


Suppose we were neighbors, and my dog kept biting your dog thru the fence, and I told you to keep him away from the fence to avoid being bitten again. You refused and said he was in his own yard and shouldn't have to stay away from the fence. 
If complying would ensure your dogs safety and you refused, who was being divisive?


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> It would be interesting to see a study on coronavirus deaths vs collateral damage. I suspect that coronavirus killed a lot more, based on life expectancy in the US dropping by a full year due to the pandemic.


But it didn't have to be that way. The government made the decision to not focus on treatment, but only on the vaccine. it is likely that hundreds of thousands died worldwide because of the decisions of WHO and the Western countries to not focus on repurposing existing drugs as treatment for Covid-19. Hopefully, someday the truth will come out. As only 1 member of the House and Senate died from Covid-19, I suspect they had treatment options available to them, that were not available to the general public. 

And if life expectancy did drop by a year, it was primarily from people who would have died relatively soon anyway; meaning the life expectancy should almost immediately jump back up, possibly even higher than before Covid-19.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

“ Giving up everyone’s freedoms for a few people to have false security shows how altered (thanks to government education) the thinking and understanding of people. So sad. “

This will be what some short sighted folks will learn in the long run.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> I have no doubt that covid poses a more serious threat to American lives than so-called collateral damage deaths.
> 
> This pandemic has had tragic consequences, especially in the US. Unique to the US, covid response was impacted by devisiveness, resulting in an explosion of covid deaths compared to the rest of the world. It didn't have to happen. Even common sense measures like wearing face masks and getting vaccinated became partisan issues.
> 
> As I said, it didn't have to happen.


The tragic consequences aren't just in the US and I'm not convinced that the virus is a greater threat than the collateral damage to the people affected. 

I'd be more interested in common sense measures if common sense was involved. Most people miss the part where it's been said masks may help prevent spread but common sense also says that if a medical professional says one can not wear a mask, it's not up to an internet expert to tell that person what they *should *be doing. 

Common sense suggests that if 25 masked kids can gather in a classroom, 25 masked adults should be able to attend a funeral or those same kids should be able to attend a 4H meeting. 

Our ICU admissions have actually dropped since the advent of covid so common sense suggests that my neighbour who is sitting at home waiting for brain embolisms to burst, could likely have surgery and run the risk of surviving. 

Common sense suggests that liqour stores are not essential services and they are not any more safe than a hair salon. Common sense suggests that if there are no known incidents of the virus being transmitted in fitness facilities and hair salons, there is no need to close gyms and hair salons. 

Common sense suggests that if outdoor family gatherings and pond hockey are unsafe, so are protests. 

Common sense suggests that if officials are going to harrass churchs for defying public orders, they should be doing the same to mosques and temples. 

Common sense tells me that if one is concerned about mortality, one needs to be concerned about all those who have died as the result of lockdowns and you can't pick the ones you feel relevant and offer nothing more than a shoulder shrug for the rest. 

Common sense suggests that people like myself, who will not receive the vaccination for a few months yet, should not be insulted or bullied to get a vaccination we can't even access yet.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

A large percentage of deaths were among nursing home residents who were denied access to dedicated family caretakers and patient advocates.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> “ Giving up everyone’s freedoms for a few people to have false security shows how altered (thanks to government education) the thinking and understanding of people. So sad. “
> 
> This will be what some short sighted folks will learn in the long run.


Americans were perfectly willing to accept a loss of freedom following 9/11, and we've never gotten some of those lost freedom back. You can't really compare that to taking common sense pandemic precautions for a few months.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

"Common Sense" is woke speak to insinuate your precautions are superior to someone else's methods.
BTW, some Americans were willing to give up their freedoms over 911, not all and not even a majority.
And Alice didn't say anything about 911.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Americans were perfectly willing to accept a loss of freedom following 9/11, and we've never gotten some of those lost freedom back. You can't really compare that to taking common sense pandemic precautions for a few months.


A lot of Americans were not willing to accept that loss of freedom. A sad situation which might have been averted if foreigners were denied the freedoms of Americans.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wr said:


> Common sense suggests that people like myself, who will not receive the vaccination for a few months yet, should not be insulted or bullied to get a vaccination we can't even access yet.


Is that actually happening in North America? I know that some European countries require tourists to prove vaccination before entry, but not here.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Since our border has been opened and covid positive illegals have been allowed in, makes a person wonder how serious our government is in preventing infection.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

no really said:


> Since our border has been opened and covid positive illegals have been allowed in, makes a person wonder how serious our government is in preventing infection.


I nominate this for a post of the pandemic award!


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> "Common Sense" is woke speak to insinuate your precautions are superior to someone else's methods.


Which covid precautions do you think make sense?


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Which covid precautions do you think make sense?


IMHO proper treatment with HCQ for one.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> Which covid precautions do you think make sense?


What makes sense to me may not work for you.
I don't judge what others do to protect themselves from whatever concerns them. 
I focus on myself.
That is the blessing and curse of freedom.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Which covid precautions do you think make sense?


The one I would have implemented was not. Sick people STAY HOME! Doesn't matter if you don't think it's covid, if you are sick STAY HOME!!!!!!!


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

DUBLIN (Reuters) - Ireland temporarily suspended AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine “out of an abundance of caution” on Sunday, citing reports from the Norwegian Medicines Agency regarding a cluster of serious blood clotting in some recipients there. 









France And Germany Pause Use Of AstraZeneca's COVID-19 Vaccine


The two countries joined a number of other European nations that have temporarily suspended the shot after several people reportedly developed blood clots after receiving it.




www.npr.org


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Since our border has been opened and covid positive illegals have been allowed in, makes a person wonder how serious our government is in preventing infection.


Mostly false.









Fact-check: Is the Biden administration releasing 'hundreds' of infected migrants into Texas?


Texas Gov. Greg Abbott turned his attention to the border last week to highlight coronavirus cases among migrants crossing into Texas.



www.statesman.com


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> Americans were perfectly willing to accept a loss of freedom following 9/11, and we've never gotten some of those lost freedom back. You can't really compare that to taking common sense pandemic precautions for a few months.


Can easily do so. What a short sighted statement


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Mostly false.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Goodness how many people will be exposed by those 200 positive illegals? You want to take a bus ride with them? I'll buy you a ticket, just make sure you get a good seat. 🤣


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> Mostly false.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He is allowing over a thousand per day, that we know about to enter this country. They are not needed here for the good of the country. 






__





Southwest Land Border Encounters


Securing America's Borders




www.cbp.gov


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Oh, they were assylum seekers who were positive for covid and released. Well that just makes aaaallll the difference. (extremely heavy sarcasm intended)
The article does not say if they were released or detained. Other articles have said they were released.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

There are many more entering, they don't come through the checkpoints.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

They were released, according to the news here in Texas.

There was a traffic stop north of Austin yesterday. The illegals packed in the vehicle scattered like a covey of quail.

I have had MULTIPLE crossings on my south Texas property as they head to Houston.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

We've been warned if we find any on our property to call immediately for help, do not approach or interact with them. When we find sick or dead be very aware of the danger they could pose. My land is bordered by the Rio Grande we have frequent incursions.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> What the physician is, is a scammer using all possible paths to sell snake oil to the vulnerable.


Sounds like Fauci! Prove me wrong...


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Well there are billions of dollars at stake for the drug companies.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Americans were perfectly willing to accept a loss of freedom following 9/11, and we've never gotten some of those lost freedom back. You can't really compare that to taking common sense pandemic precautions for a few months.


Remember, Obama and Biden had the power to give those freedoms back...but they didn't now did they?
Nope, just shows how biased you really are.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> Oh, they were assylum seekers who were positive for covid and released. Well that just makes aaaallll the difference. (extremely heavy sarcasm intended)
> The article does not say if they were released or detained. Other articles have said they were released.


Lets send them to Nevada!


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Migrants smuggled across Texas river as border crossings surge, video shows


More than 3,000 children have reportedly tried to cross the border in the past two weeks, as the Biden administration insists there's no border "crisis."




www.foxnews.com





There is a video with the article of the crossings on the Rio Grande.


----------



## susieneddy (Sep 2, 2011)

We got our first vaccine shot (Pfizer) the other day. We go back in 21-28 days to get the last shot.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> They were released, according to the news here in Texas.
> 
> There was a traffic stop north of Austin yesterday. The illegals packed in the vehicle scattered like a covey of quail.
> 
> I have had MULTIPLE crossings on my south Texas property as they head to Houston.





no really said:


> We've been warned if we find any on our property to call immediately for help, do not approach or interact with them. When we find sick or dead be very aware of the danger they could pose. My land is bordered by the Rio Grande we have frequent incursions.


Things sure have changed down there since the 70’s when I was in and out of the border towns, from Brownsville to El Paso. I can not see how anyone would think its a good thing, assist in it, or as some of our politicians do, actively increase the problem.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Mish said:


> Compliance documentation? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


I have always had trouble with "C" words (Compliance, Comitment, Commie,... )


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

susieneddy said:


> We got our first vaccine shot (Pfizer) the other day. We go back in 21-28 days to get the last shot.


Please let US know how it goes.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> Please let US know how it goes.


I got the Pfizer vaccine and it went ok. The injection site was sore for about 24 hours. On the second shot the injection site wasn't as sore as after the first shot. I had no other side effects.

Having taken the vaccine, I feel better about the pandemic. I'm covered, so it's unlikely that I'll fall extremely ill, and depending on the results of new studies it may be unlikely that I'll get the virus. I'm better off emotionally after getting the virus.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Glad to hear your in such a better place emotionally...........


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Nevada said:


> I have no doubt that covid poses a more serious threat to American lives than so-called collateral damage deaths.
> 
> This pandemic has had tragic consequences, especially in the US. Unique to the US, covid response was impacted by devisiveness, resulting in an explosion of covid deaths compared to the rest of the world. It didn't have to happen. Even common sense measures like wearing face masks and getting vaccinated became partisan issues.
> 
> As I said, it didn't have to happen.





Nevada said:


> Which covid precautions do you think make sense?


Multiple studies reported in the medical literature show that only two activities are associated with an increased risk of CoV infection-- living with an infected person and frequenting bars & restaurants.

Other activities like social distancing, wearing masks, wearing gloves, frequent hand cleansing, avoiding group meetings, shopping etc are NOT associated with a change in risk and cannot be justified.

Common sense tells you the world is flat.

Collateral damage-- US CoViD deaths on the order of 10^5. Unemployment due to CoV on the order of 10^7. Psych complications on the order of 10^8. Your fantasy is not justified by the numbers, but then, liberals do consistently have a difficult time with facts that don't fit the narrative.

BTW- Ben Franklin, a pretty bright guy, once said "Those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither."


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Nevada said:


> I got the Pfizer vaccine and it went ok. The injection site was sore for about 24 hours. On the second shot the injection site wasn't as sore as after the first shot. I had no other side effects.
> 
> Having taken the vaccine, I feel better about the pandemic. * I'm covered, so it's unlikely that I'll fall extremely ill*, and depending on the results of new studies it may be unlikely that I'll get the virus. I'm better off emotionally after getting the virus.


Glad you feelz better but it was already unlikely you'd fall extremely ill. I fully understand some people make decisions based on emotions.


----------



## Esteban29304 (Apr 29, 2003)

I have gotten both of my shots & so have my family & friends. I know of only one who had some flu-like side effects for 2 days, after the 2nd shot. [ Moderna ] 
I have a lady friend who got the virus last fall, & only felt sickly for about a week. SHE gave it to her elderly Mom, who died within a few days. SHE also gave it to her husband who died a very miserable death after suffering for 2 weeks. NOW, she is very depressed & suicidal ! I cannot imagine what she is going through !!

MY OPINION . The more people who get the shots, the safer we will be, & the quicker our recovery. PLEASE consider this !


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Esteban29304 said:


> MY OPINION . The more people who get the shots, the safer we will be, & the quicker our recovery. PLEASE consider this !


Yes, it seems to me that the people who want the economy to reopen should be the first to promote vaccines. The more resistance to vaccines, the slower the economic recovery will be. That has to be self-evident to everyone.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> Yes, it seems to me that the people who want the economy to reopen should be the first to promote vaccines. The more resistance to vaccines, the slower the economic recovery will be. That has to be self-evident to everyone.


Since the economy did not need to be shut down to start with, the rest is just feel good false logic.


----------



## tella (Mar 19, 2021)

Yes, medicine is moving forward. You have to trust.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)




----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Since the economy did not need to be shut down to start with, the rest is just feel good false logic.


Even without government orders to limit occupancy and cease operations of certain businesses, many patrons are still going to stay home. As long as the pandemic lingers, the economy will not return to normal.

Other than getting vaccinated. there's not a lot we can do about that.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

tella said:


> Yes, medicine is moving forward. You have to trust.


Trust is earned.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Trust is earned.


There is no realistic doubt that you owe your life to medical science. Without it, you would most likely already died from a simple infection or a disease like smallpox, Any diabrtics you might know probably wouldn't be around either. If that doesn't earn your trust I don't know what might.

In fact, medical science has moved so far forward that it's actually creating it's own set of problems, like population explosion and food shortages.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> There is no realistic doubt that you owe your life to medical science. Without it, you would most likely already died from a simple infection or a disease like smallpox, Any diabrtics you might know probably wouldn't be around either. If that doesn't earn your trust I don't know what might.
> 
> In fact, medical science has moved so far forward that it's actually creating it's own set of problems, like population explosion and food shortages.


Medicine has changed, especially with the advent of Covid. The lies, half truths and complete absence of good practices has damaged all. Corporate medicine is not creating trust.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Medicine has changed, especially with the advent of Covid. The lies, half truths and complete absence of good practices has damaged all. Corporate medicine is not creating trust.


That's not the medical community doing that, it's politicians.

It's easy to suggest that a controversy exists, even of it doesn't. I could post opinions that support the idea of a flat earth, claiming that there is genuine controversary in the scientific community about the earth being a sphere. But, of course, no such controversary exists.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> That's not the medical community doing that, it's politicians.
> 
> It's easy to suggest that a controversy exists, even of it doesn't. I could post opinions that support the idea of a flat earth, claiming that there is genuine controversary in the scientific community about the earth being a sphere. But, of course, no such controversary exists.


Corporate medicine is not about treating patients, it is about large profits and monopolies. Doctors hands are tied by medical monopolies and contractual agreements. 

Your argument has nothing to do with the discussion.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Medical breakthroughs are not responsible for population increases. Sociology reveals that increased food supply causes population growth. 

Medical breakthroughs have nothing to do with food shortages. Historically, those are caused by drought or by dictators. For example, the Irish potato crop failure of the mid 1800s would have had little effect if the English had released the abundant wheat stores. The English government chose not to do that.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Medical breakthroughs are not responsible for population increases. Sociology reveals that increased food supply causes population growth.


A lot more people used to die from disease. Doesn't curing disease increase population?

Even today, imagine, hypothetically, that someone developed a cure for heart disease, which is the leading cause of death for older people. Those patients would be kept alive for years, continuing to draw SS and benefit from Medicare. That could shock the system to the point where the government couldn't afford it.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

doc- said:


> Multiple studies reported in the medical literature show that only two activities are associated with an increased risk of CoV infection-- living with an infected person and frequenting bars & restaurants.


You forgot visiting Granny in a nursing home, family gatherings and going to church, oh and attending a biker rally.

You cannot catch covid at a mass protest or riot which is why those activities are permitted.

The above is sarcasm. The medical studies are very skewed and have overlooked the thousands of people who caught covid from co-workers who were required to work even if they were drop-dead sick.


----------



## tella (Mar 19, 2021)

add to the events also public transport and all those who do not have the means to treat themselves, or even to take the tests in some countries


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> You forgot visiting Granny in a nursing home, family gatherings and going to church, oh and attending a biker rally.
> 
> You cannot catch covid at a mass protest or riot which is why those activities are permitted.
> 
> The above is sarcasm. The medical studies are very skewed and have overlooked the thousands of people who caught covid from co-workers who were required to work even if they were drop-dead sick.


And funerals.
I do believe it was idiotic and hypocritical for certain people to deem some protests and marches safe and others not. 
It was a slap in the face to science Which should not be politically influenced by either side.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

And weddings!

Actually there was a wedding which became a super spreader event when one of the attendees participated because he thought he only had bronchitis, not covid.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> And weddings!
> 
> Actually there was a wedding which became a super spreader event when one of the attendees participated because he thought he only had bronchitis, not covid.


Yes, there was one about an hour from here that caused the deaths of at least 7 in old age homes. Several caregivers from the home attended and carried it to work with them. 








Ritzville wedding with 300 guests becomes COVID-19 super-spreader event


A 300-person wedding near Ritzville has led to nearly 40 COVID-19 cases — and likely more — in Grant and Adams counties.




www.spokesman.com


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Sociology reveals that increased food supply causes population growth.


Minor correction-- change "causes" to "allows."


Danaus29 said:


> You forgot visiting Granny in a nursing home, family gatherings and going to church, oh and attending a biker rally.
> 
> You cannot catch covid at a mass protest or riot which is why those activities are permitted.
> 
> The above is sarcasm. The medical studies are very skewed and have overlooked the thousands of people who caught covid from co-workers who were required to work even if they were drop-dead sick.





Danaus29 said:


> And weddings!
> 
> Actually there was a wedding which became a super spreader event when one of the attendees participated because he thought he only had bronchitis, not covid.


False....The studies examined things like work place spread & spread at gatherings--- neither increased risk....The wedding example is anecdotal at best...If many guests turned out getting CoViD. it may well have been coincidental and not causative. We'll never know, but there have been many weddings attended by infected people (it seems the going rate is ~10% of everybody) and no increased incidence of infection resulted.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> Even without government orders to limit occupancy and cease operations of certain businesses, many patrons are still going to stay home. As long as the pandemic lingers, the economy will not return to normal.
> 
> Other than getting vaccinated. there's not a lot we can do about that.


It seems pretty much a sure thing that covid is here to stay. People should do what they feel comfortable with and move on. Many restaurants seem to have figured out they do not need dine in customers and people seem to be making them profitable. Hard to blame them, its a much easier business plan. 

Our old form of “normal” is gone I think for more reasons than just covid.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> That's not the medical community doing that, it's politicians.
> 
> It's easy to suggest that a controversy exists, even of it doesn't. I could post opinions that support the idea of a flat earth, claiming that there is genuine controversary in the scientific community about the earth being a sphere. But, of course, no such controversary exists.


The medical community is responsible. They could actually do better than the legal requirements but do not seem to desire to. The politicians are enabling and allowing it.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

doc- said:


> Minor correction-- change "causes" to "allows."
> 
> 
> 
> False....The studies examined things like work place spread & spread at gatherings--- neither increased risk....The wedding example is anecdotal at best...If many guests turned out getting CoViD. it may well have been coincidental and not causative. We'll never know, but there have been many weddings attended by infected people (it seems the going rate is ~10% of everybody) and no increased incidence of infection resulted.


And all those meat packing plant employees didn't get covid at work? Or were the studies just skewed to ask only certain questions about the activities of covid patients in the weeks before they got sick?

Surely you recall the hysteria over the covid spread that never happened in Sturgis. Covid spread was totally ignored in all the hoopla about the riots and protests.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Doc,

cdc on wedding, etc









Multiple COVID-19 Outbreaks Linked to a Wedding Reception in ...


This report describes a COVID-19 outbreak linked to a wedding reception in a rural town in Maine.




www.cdc.gov


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Danaus29 said:


> *And all those meat packing plant employees didn't get covid at work?* Or were the studies just skewed to ask only certain questions about the activities of covid patients in the weeks before they got sick?
> 
> Surely you recall the hysteria over the covid spread that never happened in Sturgis. Covid spread was totally ignored in all the hoopla about the riots and protests.


In most meat packing plants I know of most of the employees are Hispanic. They tend to gather after work and socialize a lot. On the other hand we have several factories around here making car parts and candy. They vary from about 300 to 700 employees and they all have had a handful of COVID cases throughout last year but no outbreaks of any size.


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Doc,
> 
> cdc on wedding, etc
> 
> ...


"Linked" is another word for "correlated." They didn't perform an exercise for Koch's Postulates, therefore no cause & effect can be proclaimed....Does one spot on a leopard's coat "cause" the other spots?....But the temporal & spatial occurrence of spots and of epidemic waves and hot spots are both precisely described by the same mathematical formula.

How many weddings were attended by large groups, surely with infected people in attendance, and no "Super-Spreader" phenomenon was seen during the same time period?



poppy said:


> In most meat packing plants I know of most of the employees are Hispanic. They tend to gather after work and socialize a lot. On the other hand we have several factories around here making car parts and candy. They vary from about 300 to 700 employees and they all have had a handful of COVID cases throughout last year but no outbreaks of any size.


Thanks. You beat me to it.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

COVID-19 Among Workers in Meat and Poultry Processing Facilities ...


This report indicates that coronavirus disease 2019 cases among workers in 115 meat or poultry processing facilities were reported by 19 states.




www.cdc.gov













Why Meatpacking Plants Have Become Covid-19 Hot Spots


Frigid temperatures, cramped conditions, and long hours put meat processing workers at higher risk for contracting the novel coronavirus.




www.wired.com





Do a lot of hispanics live in Iowa or South Dakota?


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Esteban29304 said:


> I have gotten both of my shots & so have my family & friends. I know of only one who had some flu-like side effects for 2 days, after the 2nd shot. [ Moderna ]
> I have a lady friend who got the virus last fall, & only felt sickly for about a week. SHE gave it to her elderly Mom, who died within a few days. SHE also gave it to her husband who died a very miserable death after suffering for 2 weeks. NOW, she is very depressed & suicidal ! I cannot imagine what she is going through !!
> 
> MY OPINION . The more people who get the shots, the safer we will be, & the quicker our recovery. PLEASE consider this !


Did she give it to them, how does she know this? Where did she get it, how do they know. Were there underlying health problems, what kind of treatment did they get.

There to this than St Fauchi Deceecee is talking about.


----------



## Esteban29304 (Apr 29, 2003)

She was invited to a wedding last Fall where no masks were worn, no social distancing, etc. She came home to her family & felt OK for a couple of days. She started getting headaches & the new bride called her to let her know that the woman she sat next at the wedding to had the virus.[ she died, too ] Her condition got worse with flu-like symptoms, so she got tested & was positive. Her husband & Mom, who lived with them , started showing symptoms about that time, too. She was treated & was able to stay at home, but her husband & Mom were admitted. None of them had any pre-existing conditions, other than her Mom being in her 70's.


----------



## GreenLeaf Homestead (Feb 17, 2021)

Had anyone tried the magnet trick on the area where you got the shot? I am so curious but haven’t found anyone I know really well who has gotten it and I could ask them to try it. 😄

I can’t try the trick because I won’t get the gene therapy shot since aborted babies are used in the making and development of most of the shots, and I don’t want to change my genes and also I avoid toxic ingredients for health reasons.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GreenLeaf Homestead said:


> Had anyone tried the magnet trick on the area where you got the shot? I am so curious but haven’t found anyone I know really well who has gotten it and I could ask them to try it. 😄
> 
> I can’t try the trick because I won’t get the gene therapy shot since aborted babies are used in the making and development of most of the shots, and I don’t want to change my genes and also I avoid toxic ingredients for health reasons.


No, nuts & bolts don't stick to my forehead.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Impressed


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

I saw on the news today that one hundred and seventy employees from a hospital in Houston, Texas, have been suspended for two weeks for refusing to be vaccinated. When interviewed they said they wouldn't take a vaccine that had an emergency approval rating. They wanted to wait for a vaccine that had actually passed a testing process.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Danaus29 said:


> because we stunk of cow manure or hard work sweat.


I was kidded at school, sometimes by teachers, because my boots and coat smelled like hogs, or cow manure. My dad told me to tell them it smelled like money. If that didn't work, he said to just go ahead and whip some butt. I did that a few times, until the football coach told everybody to leave me and my brothers alone. He was running out of first aid supplies.


----------



## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

The Hill: Canada rejects 300K J&J vaccine doses made at troubled Baltimore facility | TheHill.








Canada rejects 300K J&J vaccine doses made at troubled Baltimore facility


Canada has rejected 300,000 doses of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine from the U.S. after it was made at a Baltimore facility riddled with contamination issues.“Health Canada has completed its qua…




thehill.com


----------



## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

muleskinner2 said:


> I saw on the news today that one hundred and seventy employees from a hospital in Houston, Texas, have been suspended for two weeks for refusing to be vaccinated. When interviewed they said they wouldn't take a vaccine that had an emergency approval rating. They wanted to wait for a vaccine that had actually passed a testing process.


170 got fired


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Forcast said:


> 170 got fired


I would get fired myself, before I would let them stick me with a untested vaccine.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Forcast said:


> 170 got fired


Good for them for standing up to their beliefs.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Good for them for standing up to their beliefs.


I know that requiring vaccinations for hospital staff might seem like an imposition to some, but I like the idea that hospitals are doing everything they can to prevent hospital acquired conditions.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> I know that requiring vaccinations for hospital staff might seem like an imposition to some, but I like the idea that hospitals are doing everything they can to prevent hospital acquired conditions.


It's not that it's an imposition, it has a lot more to do with making medical decisions for people. 

Our frontline workers have given a lot through all of this and it feels ugly to to thank them for all their efforts by firing them if they don't feel comfortable with the vaccine. 

I believe forcing anyone to accept unwanted medication or medical procedures extends way beyond an imposition. Is it even ethical to force someone to participate in a clinical trial?


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

The US already requires vaccinations for many things. Schools, employment, visa's. For the most part, the US is an at-will workplace and quite different than the US. Requiring covid vaccinations fits right into that at-will situation. The laws are quite different.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> The US already requires vaccinations for many things. Schools, employment, visa's. For the most part, the US is an at-will workplace and quite different than the US. Requiring covid vaccinations fits right into that at-will situation. The laws are quite different.


There are exemptions for vaccines and always have been.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

wr said:


> It's not that it's an imposition, it has a lot more to do with making medical decisions for people.
> 
> Our frontline workers have given a lot through all of this and it feels ugly to to thank them for all their efforts by firing them if they don't feel comfortable with the vaccine.
> 
> I believe forcing anyone to accept unwanted medication or medical procedures extends way beyond an imposition. Is it even ethical to force someone to participate in a clinical trial?



History repeats.






Unethical human experimentation in the United States - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Numerous experiments which were performed on human test subjects in the United States are considered unethical, because they were illegally performed or they were performed without the knowledge, consent, or informed consent of the test subjects. Such tests were performed throughout American history, but most of them were performed during the 20th century. The experiments included the exposure of humans to many chemical and biological weapons (including infections with deadly or debilitating diseases), human radiation experiments, injections of toxic and radioactive chemicals, surgical experiments, interrogation and torture experiments, tests which involved mind-altering substances, and a wide variety of other experiments. Many of these tests were performed on children,[1] the sick, and mentally disabled individuals, often under the guise of "medical treatment". In many of the studies, a large portion of the subjects were poor, racial minorities, or prisoners.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> There are exemptions for vaccines and always have been.


Yes, and there are people at that very hospital that took advantage of the exemptions available to them.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wr said:


> It's not that it's an imposition, it has a lot more to do with making medical decisions for people.


But the thing is that patients seldom have a choice whether to go to the hospital, or even which hospital to go to. Hospital employees have more choice in the matter than patients do, since they can choose not to work there at any time. Don't I have the right to expect a safe environment if I'm sent to the hospital? What about my rights?

COVID-19 isn't just some game we're playing, and it's not an exercise in personal rights. It's a deadly pandemic, the likes of which none of us have ever seen before, provided that none of us are over 103 years old. These measures might seem draconian because we've never seen them before, but consider that Typhoid Mary was incarcerated for the rest of her life (some 30 years) for failing to comply with New York City Health Department requirements. Mary never had any symptoms of typhoid and never believed that she had typhoid, yet courts upheld her incarceration as both reasonable and necessary.

All the powers-that-be are doing is recommending vaccines that the best available science says are safe and effective, in the hope of saving hundreds of thousands of American lives. That seems like a noble enough cause, doesn't it?


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> History repeats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't see the moral equivalency between COVID vaccines and unethical medical experiments of the past. If there was they wouldn't vaccinate present and past presidents, first ladies, congressmen and senators. The fact that they're all on board with the vaccines, even those who publicly denounce them, speaks volumes.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> I don't see the moral equivalency between COVID vaccines and unethical medical experiments of the past. If there was they wouldn't vaccinate present and past presidents, first ladies, congressmen and senators. The fact that they are all on board with the vaccines, even those who publicly denounce them, tells us a lot.


You can feel anyway you want but most want to do their due diligence when presented with an partially tested, new medication. Their is plenty of evidence of issues with this and other medications. No one should be coerced or punished for wanting answers and facts before partaking. History is the teacher.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> But the thing is that patients seldom have a choice whether to go to the hospital, or even which hospital to go to. Hospital employees have more choice in the matter than patients do, since they can choose not to work there at any time. Don't I have the right to expect a safe environment if I'm sent to the hospital? What about my rights?
> 
> COVID-19 isn't just some game we're playing, and it's not an exercise in personal rights. It's a deadly pandemic, the likes of which none of us have ever seen before, provided that none of us are over 103 years old. These measures might seem draconian because we've never seen them before, but consider that Typhoid Mary was incarcerated for the rest of her life for failing to comply with New York City Health Department requirements. Courts upheld her incarceration as both reasonable and necessary.
> 
> All the powers-that-be are doing is recommending vaccines that the best available science says are safe and effective, in the hope of saving hundreds of thousands of American lives. That seems like a noble enough cause, doesn't it?


I firmly believe it should be offered but not forced. If someone wants to be, what you call a 'true patriot,' it should be their decision, not yours, the government or their employer. 

I feel we're treading on shaky ground when we force people to do something they aren't comfortable with.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> But the thing is that patients seldom have a choice whether to go to the hospital, or even which hospital to go to. Hospital employees have more choice in the matter than patients do, since they can choose not to work there at any time. Don't I have the right to expect a safe environment if I'm sent to the hospital? What about my rights?
> 
> COVID-19 isn't just some game we're playing, and it's not an exercise in personal rights. It's a deadly pandemic, the likes of which none of us have ever seen before, provided that none of us are over 103 years old. These measures might seem draconian because we've never seen them before, but consider that Typhoid Mary was incarcerated for the rest of her life (some 30 years) for failing to comply with New York City Health Department requirements. Mary never had any symptoms of typhoid and never believed that she had typhoid, yet courts upheld her incarceration as both reasonable and necessary.
> 
> All the powers-that-be are doing is recommending vaccines that the best available science says are safe and effective, in the hope of saving hundreds of thousands of American lives. That seems like a noble enough cause, doesn't it?


For someone as smart as you are, I find it hard to believe that you believe everything the government is throwing at us.

Can you explain either India or Mexico? India has vaccinated only about 15% of the population and Mexico 20%, and that's just 1 dose. Why the sudden, dramatic drop in cases? I just captured those screenshots, so they are current.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wr said:


> I firmly believe it should be offered but not forced. If someone wants to be, what you call a 'true patriot,' it should be their decision, not yours, the government or their employer.
> 
> I feel we're treading on shaky ground when we force people to do something they aren't comfortable with.


Nobody is forcing them. They have a choice.

In my pre-Internet life I was a process engineer for a major oil company. In order to work at an oil refinery I was forbidden to grow a beard, because an escape air pack couldn't make a good seal to my face if I had a beard. Of course I could have turned down the job. But what about my rights? Firefighters have the same requirement. Isn't it that their choice too?

But it didn't end there. When I went out into the plant I had to wear a Nomex jumpsuit for fire safety. Wasn't that my choice whether to wear it or not? We also had to sign a consent form for the oil company to draw blood and/or urine for drug screening at any time and for any reason, or for no reason at all. When I was working on an arsenic project I had to consent to have my blood drawn weekly to monitor for arsenic exposure.

Of course I was also required to wear a hard hat when I was in the plant. Shouldn't that have been a matter of free choice? Leather shoes were required, but they didn't like us to wear leather sneakers (for reasons I never understood). I guess they just didn't like the shape of the shoe. Maybe we looked too comfortable for their liking.

I was required to wear safety glasses in all operating and lab areas, and in some locations both safety glasses and a face shield. In the chlorine storage area I had to wear a Scott Air Pack, even if there was no leak. There were also occasions that required Tivex or rain slickers (when it wasn't raining).

Of course I could always quit.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> Nobody is forcing them. They have a choice.
> 
> In my pre-Internet life I was a process engineer for a major oil company. In order to work at an oil refinery I was forbidden to grow a beard, because an escape air pack couldn't make a good seal to my face if I had a beard. Of course I could have turned down the job. But what about my rights? Firefighters have the same requirement. Isn't it that their choice too?
> 
> ...


The difference is that the rules for safety gear were in place at the beginning of your employment and none involve administering a vaccine.

Do you really want to see doctors and nurses quite rather than be forced to take a vaccination they aren’t comfortable with?


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

wr said:


> The difference is that the rules for safety gear were in place at the beginning of your employment and none involve administering a vaccine.
> 
> Do you really want to see doctors and nurses quite rather than be forced to take a vaccination they aren’t comfortable with?


The hospital sure was glad to have them around to treat Covid patients before there was a vaccine.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> The hospital sure was glad to have them around to treat Covid patients before there was a vaccine.


But now the hospital has liability. If somebody's mother is being treated by an unvaccinated nurse who gives the mother covid and the3 mother dies, the hospital has liability exposure for allowing the nurse to treat patients.

This would be analogous to someone in a refinery worker being allowed in the plant without a hard hat, and someone drops a crescent wrench on his head from 50 feet. You can expect his wife to sue the oil company.

Not to change the subject, but it seems that we put a lot of faith in a nurse's opinion about vaccines. It's not like they're qualified to do fundamental vaccine development. I'm not trying to take nurses down a notch, but are they really the people to ask?


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Even vaccinated people can get covid.
So if the nurse is vaccinated and asymptomatic is the hospital still liable?


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> Even vaccinated people can get covid.
> So if the nurse is vaccinated and asymptomatic is the hospital still liable?


No, because they did all they could do using best available science to protect the patients. That's the standard a court of law would use.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> But now the hospital has liability. If somebody's mother is being treated by an unvaccinated nurse who gives the mother covid and the3 mother dies, the hospital has liability exposure for allowing the nurse to treat patients.
> 
> This would be analogous to someone in a refinery worker being allowed in the plant without a hard hat, and someone drops a crescent wrench on his head from 50 feet. You can expect his wife to sue the oil company.
> 
> Not to change the subject, but it seems that we put a lot of faith in a nurse's opinion about vaccines. It's not like they're qualified to do fundamental vaccine development. I'm not trying to take nurses down a notch, but are they really the people to ask?


First, you don't believe doctors and now you don't believe nurses, but you do believe the government.

ETA: This was meant in jest.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

And those nurses have either already had covid and are immune or never got covid after exposure and are presumed to be immune.

The vaccine is still experimental. That is a fact. No one should have the right to force an experimental vaccine on any person as a condition of employment.

The nurses might have had a better chance if they had not made such ridiculous claims about the side effects.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Nevada said:


> But now the hospital has liability. If somebody's mother is being treated by an unvaccinated nurse who gives the mother covid and the3 mother dies, the hospital has liability exposure for allowing the nurse to treat patients.
> 
> This would be analogous to someone in a refinery worker being allowed in the plant without a hard hat, and someone drops a crescent wrench on his head from 50 feet. You can expect his wife to sue the oil company.
> 
> Not to change the subject, but it seems that we put a lot of faith in a nurse's opinion about vaccines. It's not like they're qualified to do fundamental vaccine development. I'm not trying to take nurses down a notch, but are they really the people to ask?


That is an absurd analogy based on an absurd premise. The hospital does not have liability if an unvaccinated staff member infects someone and it is nearly impossible to determine when, where and from whom someone contracts a respiratory virus, especially a fairly common one that doesn't even make everyone who has contracted ill. Wearing a hard hat does not cause potential long term harm.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> First, you don't believe doctors and now you don't believe nurses, but you do believe the government.


I not only believe doctors and nurses, I have a great deal of respect for both.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Hiro said:


> Wearing a hard hat does not cause potential long term harm.


You don't know that covid vaccines cause long term harm either.


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Nevada said:


> You don't know that covid vaccines cause long term harm either.


And you don't know that they don't cause long term harm.

Furthermore, you stated that no one is being forced. Well, yes, people are being forced. It's become a condition of employment, so you can take the jab and work, or you can decline the jab and starve.

Also, West Point cadets have been placed in solitary confinement for refusing to participate in this medical experiment. That smacks of "forcing" to me. 

Nevada, the more you type, the more you shoot holes in any credibility you may have once had.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Pony said:


> And you don't know that they don't cause long term harm.
> 
> Furthermore, you stated that no one is being forced. Well, yes, people are being forced. It's become a condition of employment, so you can take the jab and work, or you can decline the jab and starve.
> 
> ...


They are free to change jobs. I read that here all the time. Don't like the job conditions move on.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> But now the hospital has liability. If somebody's mother is being treated by an unvaccinated nurse who gives the mother covid and the3 mother dies, the hospital has liability exposure for allowing the nurse to treat patients.
> 
> This would be analogous to someone in a refinery worker being allowed in the plant without a hard hat, and someone drops a crescent wrench on his head from 50 feet. You can expect his wife to sue the oil company.
> 
> Not to change the subject, but it seems that we put a lot of faith in a nurse's opinion about vaccines. It's not like they're qualified to do fundamental vaccine development. I'm not trying to take nurses down a notch, but are they really the people to ask?


There may be some liability issues if they force someone to take the vaccine and they suffer any one of the serious side effects.

Aside from the liability issues of forcing someone to take a vaccine that is only approved for emergency use, you also still have to remember that we are seeing breakthrough cases in the fully vaccinated so force vaccinating medical staff doesn't ensure granny won't get infected. 

Are you suggesting that nurses aren't qualified to make medical decisions regarding their own health? I would suggest that they are far more qualified to make their own medical decisions than you are and to suggest otherwise grossly inappropriate.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> They are free to change jobs. I read that here all the time. Don't like the job conditions move on.


I've heard quite a few have.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> For someone as smart as you are, I find it hard to believe that you believe everything the government is throwing at us.
> 
> Can you explain either India or Mexico? India has vaccinated only about 15% of the population and Mexico 20%, and that's just 1 dose. Why the sudden, dramatic drop in cases? I just captured those screenshots, so they are current.
> 
> ...


Since it appears Nevada is ignoring my question, I will answer it. Mexico (2nd graph) starting administering Ivermectin in Mexico City around Jan 1 and most of Mexico is also administering Ivermectin. The same with India, but you can see from the curve in first graph, they just ramped up during the recent crisis. I think all but one Indian state are administering Ivermectin.

ETA: I just watched a video that said on June 7, India issued a new clinical protocol for Covid19 treatment wherein commonly used drugs like hydroxychloroquine (HCQ), ivermectin and antiviral drug favipiravir were dropped. Like everything else related to Covid-19, this makes absolutely no sense.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> I know that requiring vaccinations for hospital staff might seem like an imposition to some, but I like the idea that hospitals are doing everything they can to prevent hospital acquired conditions.


It interesting that you think they are.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> The US already requires vaccinations for many things. Schools, employment, visa's. For the most part, the US is an at-will workplace and quite different than the US. Requiring covid vaccinations fits right into that at-will situation. The laws are quite different.


Keep in mind its a experimental drug. This vaccine has no one to be held accountable for its side affects. Not fair to compare it to past vaccines that most (not all) accept now.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

wr said:


> It's not that it's an imposition, it has a lot more to do with making medical decisions for people.
> 
> Our frontline workers have given a lot through all of this and it feels ugly to to thank them for all their efforts by firing them if they don't feel comfortable with the vaccine.
> 
> I believe forcing anyone to accept unwanted medication or medical procedures extends way beyond an imposition. Is it even ethical to force someone to participate in a clinical trial?


Ethical and legal do not necessarily have anything to do with each other.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> But the thing is that patients seldom have a choice whether to go to the hospital, or even which hospital to go to. Hospital employees have more choice in the matter than patients do, since they can choose not to work there at any time. Don't I have the right to expect a safe environment if I'm sent to the hospital? What about my rights?
> 
> COVID-19 isn't just some game we're playing, and it's not an exercise in personal rights. It's a deadly pandemic, the likes of which none of us have ever seen before, provided that none of us are over 103 years old. These measures might seem draconian because we've never seen them before, but consider that Typhoid Mary was incarcerated for the rest of her life (some 30 years) for failing to comply with New York City Health Department requirements. Mary never had any symptoms of typhoid and never believed that she had typhoid, yet courts upheld her incarceration as both reasonable and necessary.
> 
> All the powers-that-be are doing is recommending vaccines that the best available science says are safe and effective, in the hope of saving hundreds of thousands of American lives. That seems like a noble enough cause, doesn't it?


What happens to mask make us safe? So now the masks that the hospitals have been using for a long time no longer work? Something is wrong in this.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> Nobody is forcing them. They have a choice.
> 
> In my pre-Internet life I was a process engineer for a major oil company. In order to work at an oil refinery I was forbidden to grow a beard, because an escape air pack couldn't make a good seal to my face if I had a beard. Of course I could have turned down the job. But what about my rights? Firefighters have the same requirement. Isn't it that their choice too?
> 
> ...


Every single piece of safety gear on that list can be put on and removed. Facial hair will start growing back tomorrow. Blood and urine test was not injecting anything INTO you. 
Ridiculous to compare to being injected with a drug.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Keep in mind its a experimental drug. This vaccine has no one to be held accountable for its side affects. Not fair to compare it to past vaccines that most (not all) accept now.


We have already have more data then with any previous vaccine. 3,4 billion doses. administered so far. No one is forced to take it. They can say no.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> But now the hospital has liability. If somebody's mother is being treated by an unvaccinated nurse who gives the mother covid and the3 mother dies, the hospital has liability exposure for allowing the nurse to treat patients.
> 
> This would be analogous to someone in a refinery worker being allowed in the plant without a hard hat, and someone drops a crescent wrench on his head from 50 feet. You can expect his wife to sue the oil company.
> 
> Not to change the subject, but it seems that we put a lot of faith in a nurse's opinion about vaccines. It's not like they're qualified to do fundamental vaccine development. I'm not trying to take nurses down a notch, but are they really the people to ask?


Nothing I have read says that the vaccinated nurse cannot give the patient covid.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> But now the hospital has liability. If somebody's mother is being treated by an unvaccinated nurse who gives the mother covid and the3 mother dies, the hospital has liability exposure for allowing the nurse to treat patients.
> 
> This would be analogous to someone in a refinery worker being allowed in the plant without a hard hat, and someone drops a crescent wrench on his head from 50 feet. You can expect his wife to sue the oil company.
> 
> Not to change the subject, but it seems that we put a lot of faith in a nurse's opinion about vaccines. It's not like they're qualified to do fundamental vaccine development. I'm not trying to take nurses down a notch, but are they really the people to ask?


Why not substitute chickenpox for covid in your post? You were probably never vaccinated for it, did you have it? Why not substitute the flu for covid in your post? Tens of thousands have died from it, yet no hospital that I've ever heard of has been sued because someone may have transmitted the flu to a patient. How would someone know for a fact that a nurse or a doctor infected a patient? Would an employee have to give up their hippa rights and be forced to give out to some random beurocrat their personal health information? You go first.
Im still waiting for your tax returns you said you had no problem giving to me. Guess you really did have a problem after all...


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

painterswife said:


> We have already have more data then with any previous vaccine. 3,4 billion doses. administered so far. No one is forced to take it. They can say no.


"We" don't have more data. They are suppressing data. They have lied over and over. It is impossible to determine the long term effects (3-5 years or more) of a vaccine that hasn't been around but a year. 

The final point that I will note and others should: why are they pushing a vaccine they claim to be so effective for those most susceptible to the Wuflu, those over 70, to be used on children that are virtually immune to it? I cannot fathom who would subject their children to this. If you are at substantial risk for the Wuflu's effects, that is a completely different calculation.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> We have already have more data then with any previous vaccine. 3,4 billion doses. administered so far. No one is forced to take it. They can say no.


It’s still experimental. And no one can be held liable for anything going wrong. No matter how many has been produced, or taken. 

It astounds me that ANYONE would not be concerned about taking a drug that the manufacture of has been released from all legal consequences of. For anyone to wish to force others to take it is incredible.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Hiro said:


> "We" don't have more data. They are suppressing data. They have lied over and over. It is impossible to determine the long term effects (3-5 years or more) of a vaccine that hasn't been around but a year.
> 
> The final point that I will note and others should: why are they pushing a vaccine they claim to be so effective for those most susceptible to the Wuflu, those over 70, to be used on children that are virtually immune to it? I cannot fathom who would subject their children to this. If you are at substantial risk for the Wuflu's effects, that is a completely different calculation.


You might believe that but I don't and billions others don't as well.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

painterswife said:


> You might believe that but I don't and billions others don't as well.


Believe what?


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Hiro said:


> "We" don't have more data. They are suppressing data. They have lied over and over. It is impossible to determine the long term effects (3-5 years or more) of a vaccine that hasn't been around but a year.
> 
> The final point that I will note and others should: why are they pushing a vaccine they claim to be so effective for those most susceptible to the Wuflu, those over 70, to be used on children that are virtually immune to it? I cannot fathom who would subject their children to this. If you are at substantial risk for the Wuflu's effects, that is a completely different calculation.


Lot of profit in having more people take it. Remember NO LIABILITY. Pure profit. Only thing they can do to make it more profitable is to have a few studies showing it needs to be taken as a booster every so often. Hmm, guess thats already been done.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> It’s still experimental. And no one can be held liable for anything going wrong. No matter how many has been produced, or taken.
> 
> It astounds me that ANYONE would not be concerned about taking a drug that the manufacture of has been released from all legal consequences of. For anyone to wish to force others to take it is incredible.


There is concern with all medical procedures. You weigh the odds and decide for yourself. When they start handcuffing people to inject them, get back to me.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Why would a hospital be held accountable for any patient getting covid? The vaccines are available and have been for long enough that anyone that wants it can already have take it. 
Mask are pretty much required to worn in the hospital. So if the hospital staff is wearing a mask all is good. No way to give covid. At least that is what we have been hearing so far.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> There is concern with all medical procedures. You weigh the odds and decide for yourself. When they start handcuffing people to inject them, get back to me.


Pretty much anything happening in a hospital can get someone sued. Hospitals and staff and the rest of the medical field go through a lot of effort and expense to not get sued. That is with the exception for the side affects from covid vaccines.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Nothing I have read says that the vaccinated nurse cannot give the patient covid.


I suppose so, but you are more than 1000 times less likely to get covid if you are vaccinated.

Beyond the hospital setting, covid vaccinations are a necessary part of a safe workplace. That's something that you will simply need to accept.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Nevada said:


> I suppose so, but you are more than 1000 times less likely to get covid if you are vaccinated.
> 
> Beyond the hospital setting, covid vaccinations are a necessary part of a safe workplace. That's something that you will simply need to accept.


There is no diagnostic testing to verify what you have claimed, as usual. I do not understand how you can be so fervent and irrational about so many subjects.


----------



## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

The Hill: CDC says vaccine link to heart inflammation is stronger than previously thought | TheHill.








CDC says vaccine link to heart inflammation is stronger than previously thought


Although it has not been officially confirmed to be an associated problem, the agency is investigating 226 cases of myocarditis and pericarditis among young, vaccinated men.




thehill.com


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Nobody is forcing them. They have a choice.
> 
> In my pre-Internet life I was a process engineer for a major oil company. In order to work at an oil refinery I was forbidden to grow a beard, because an escape air pack couldn't make a good seal to my face if I had a beard. Of course I could have turned down the job. But what about my rights? Firefighters have the same requirement. Isn't it that their choice too?
> 
> ...


None of your examples involve having a substance injected into your body against your will.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> I suppose so, but you are more than 1000 times less likely to get covid if you are vaccinated.
> 
> Beyond the hospital setting, covid vaccinations are a necessary part of a safe workplace. That's something that you will simply need to accept.


You’re still trying to substantiate your belief that it’s okay to force people to take the vaccine.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Hiro said:


> There is no diagnostic testing to verify what you have claimed, as usual. I do not understand how you can be so fervent and irrational about so many subjects.


Just giving you a friendly heads-up so you can get with the program before it's too late.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wr said:


> You’re still trying to substantiate your belief that it’s okay to force people to take the vaccine.


Nobody is forcing anyone to get vaccinated, any more than I was forced to wear a hardhat, Nomex and safety glasses.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Hiro said:


> There is no diagnostic testing to verify what you have claimed, as usual. I do not understand how you can be so fervent and irrational about so many subjects.


I'll direct you to this link.









COVID-19 Vaccine


I think you TOTALLY missed the point about early research into the harms of cigarette smoke. The research was funded by the tobacco companies and then suppressed. You don't think that industry funded their own research into greenhouse gases & climate change, and then suppressed the findings?




www.homesteadingtoday.com


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> Nobody is forcing anyone to get vaccinated, any more than I was forced to wear a hardhat, Nomex and safety glasses.


In my opinion, one should only make vaccinations mandatory at the time of employment but not later.

Would you expect that employers who do make it mandatory will be liable for any adverse reactions or deaths?


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

painterswife said:


> They are free to change jobs. I read that here all the time. Don't like the job conditions move on.


I hope they do. I hope they all walk out en masse. And I hope that draconian hospital is shut down, like the ones in rural areas that had to shut down because of over-reaching govt intervention.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Pony said:


> I hope they do. I hope they all walk out en masse. And I hope that draconian hospital is shut down, like the ones in rural areas that had to shut down because of over-reaching govt intervention.


125 out of 26,000 employees. I don't think that qualifies as en masse.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The phrase “took advantage” is emotionally loaded.

I am glad the conscientious objectors opted to do the required paperwork and keep their jobs.

I am also glad that the 170 nurses who filed the lawsuit and subsequently were fired made the choices they did.

We live in interesting times. Those two options were both necessary in the big scheme of things.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> I suppose so, but you are more than 1000 times less likely to get covid if you are vaccinated.
> 
> Beyond the hospital setting, covid vaccinations are a necessary part of a safe workplace. That's something that you will simply need to accept.


Guess someone who is concerned about getting covid should get vaccinated. Those that are not, leave them alone. Let them do their on math.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wr said:


> Would you expect that employers who do make it mandatory will be liable for any adverse reactions or deaths?


As I posted earlier, such a lawsuit would be unlikely to prevail because vaccination follows best available science at the time.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

nope

It follows the cherry picked available science.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Those that are not, leave them alone.


Your right to refuse vaccination ends when you put others at risk of getting covid.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> nope
> 
> It follows the cherry picked available science.


You can't go wrong in court if you followed guidelines.set by the CDC and NIH.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Nevada said:


> Your right to refuse vaccination ends when you put others at risk of getting covid.


That is incorrect. You can refuse them entrance or service or employment, but you still can't force vaccinations. It may be your opinon but it is not fact in this instance.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> You can't go wrong in court if you followed guidelines.set by the CDC and NIH.


I think you’ll find people are a lot more receptive when they are allowed to make informed decisions rather than being forced but that would spoil all the Covid fun. Wouldn’t it?


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> Your right to refuse vaccination ends when you put others at risk of getting covid.


If they have the vaccine then they are not at risk. Seems like a simple concept to grasp.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> You can't go wrong in court if you followed guidelines.set by the CDC and NIH.


Which guideline and from when ? There have been so many contradicting each other.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

painterswife said:


> That is incorrect. You can refuse them entrance or service or employment, but you still can't force vaccinations. It may be your opinon but it is not fact in this instance.


I posted that in the context of nurses in a hospital setting. It's becoming a standard condition of employment at hospitals. But they're always free to resign rather than get vaccinated.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Nevada said:


> I posted that in the context of nurses in a hospital setting. It's becoming a standard condition of employment at hospitals. But they're always free to resign rather than get vaccinated.


It's still force regardless of whether you are using a physical gun to get people to do what you want or an economic gun to do so. "Get the vaccine or lose your job" is force and it's wrong.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

SLFarmMI said:


> It's still force regardless of whether you are using a physical gun to get people to do what you want or an economic gun to do so. "Get the vaccine or lose your job" is force and it's wrong.


It isn't my idea, and I'm not saying that it's right or wrong. I'm just stating the reality of what's currently going on and why they're doing it. If you don't like it then you'll have to take it up with the employers.

It's not like anyone listens to me anyway.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Define wrong. Seriously.

This is an insurance company driven decision.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> This is an insurance company driven decision.


Maybe so, but it's a reality that we'll have to live with.

But not me, of course. Even if I weren't retired and was 20 years younger I wouldn't work at a job setting. I do fine with system admin work from home.

As I said, nobody listens to me anyway.


----------



## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

...


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Nevada said:


> Just giving you a friendly heads-up so you can get with the program before it's too late.


From experience reading your posts, your "heads-up" means that I ought to duck.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Last Thursday, 6/10/2021, I watched A discussion on the "Darkhorse Podcast". This is hosted by Bret Weinstein, the professor who was run off of the Evergreen State Collage for stating that banning white people from the campus was racist in March 2017. He is an Evolutionary Biologist, very respected. He discussed Covid 19, the Vaccine, and possible alternate treatments, scientifically. By Sunday YouTube had pulled his video.

Does anyone here know that Israel and Germany have stopped giving the vaccine to young men and teenagers because it causes heart problems shortly after being administerd, or that the database for Covid Vaccine problems is not being updated accurately by the government yet it has more reports than all vaccines together since it's inception?

We are being played by the Government, the Media, Bill Gates, and the elite.


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Nevada said:


> Your right to refuse vaccination ends when you put others at risk of getting covid.


When will you get it through your head that no one is responsible for the health of anyone but his own? 

If you want to participation in the experiment, have a nut. If you're still worried about getting sick, stay home. 

To believe the cherry picked science (thank you, @Alice In TX/MO) is to give up your responsibility for yourself.

Don't hold your breath waiting for those who dig deeper to go along with your demands.


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Hiro said:


> From experience reading your posts, your "heads-up" means that I ought to duck.


His "heads-up" sounds like a threat. Not unlike the barely veiled threats from Gates, Biden, et al.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> Does anyone here know that Israel and Germany have stopped giving the vaccine to young men and teenagers because it causes heart problems shortly after being administerd, or that the database for Covid Vaccine problems is not being updated accurately by the government yet it has more reports than all vaccines together since it's inception?


Yes, but you didn't mention that it was the AstraZeneca vaccine, which is not being used in the US. In fact it has never even been approved for emergency use in the US.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> It isn't my idea, and I'm not saying that it's right or wrong. I'm just stating the reality of what's currently going on and why they're doing it. If you don't like it then you'll have to take it up with the employers.
> 
> It's not like anyone listens to me anyway.


The whole covid experience has been about people knowing what's best for everyone else.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Pony said:


> When will you get it through your head that no one is responsible for the health of anyone but his own?
> 
> If you want to participation in the experiment, have a nut. If you're still worried about getting sick, stay home.


That's not the covid way. The whole thing has been about people controlling other people's lives, for 'the greater good'.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Nevada said:


> Yes, but you didn't mention that it was the AstraZeneca vaccine, which is not being used in the US. In fact it has never even been approved for emergency use in the US.



It is, as I understand it, the "spikes" in the vaccine that is causing the issues.

Would like to have the opportunity to re watch the discussion and this is the issue.

WE ARE BEING DENIED THE OPPORTUNITY TO EDUCATE OURSELVES ABOUT THE VIRUS AND THE VACCINE. BIG BROTHER GETS TO MAKE THE DECISIONS? NO! OH HELL NO.

One other thing. I hope you did not mean it this way, but it comes across as if you think that I am holding back info. 
I have not. 
It is the blocking information that is the issue for me


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Nevada said:


> I suppose so, but you are more than 1000 times less likely to get covid if you are vaccinated.
> 
> Beyond the hospital setting, covid vaccinations are a necessary part of a safe workplace. That's something that you will simply need to accept.



BS. Covid is a cold. I am not changing my DNA to please you, nor anyone else. (and yes, I had the Covid)

NEVADA I get the impression that you are accustomed to telling others what to do and that you are the finale arbitrator ( I was a system administrator too, a long time ago)
This is not that case. MYOB


----------



## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> BS. Covid is a cold. I am not changing my DNA to please you, nor anyone else. (and yes, I had the Covid)


I have said many times, I don't care if anyone gets the vaccine or not, but I do hate misinformation on either side. So, for the record, the vaccine doesn't "magnetize" anyone, Fauci is full of $hit, I don't think vaccinating young people for covid is a good idea, ivermectin does have promise, covid is not a cold, and the vaccine doesn't "change your DNA", and the entire issue is plagued by people on both sides of the equation that care more about the politics of this and "being right" than they do about sharing real information.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

todd_xxxx said:


> I have said many times, I don't care if anyone gets the vaccine or not, but I do hate misinformation on either side. So, for the record, the vaccine doesn't "magnetize" anyone, Fauci is full of $hit, I don't think vaccinating young people for covid is a good idea, ivermectin does have promise, covid is not a cold, and the vaccine doesn't "change your DNA", and the entire issue is plagued by people on both sides of the equation that care more about the politics of this and "being right" than they do about sharing real information.



Actually the Vaccine does get into your rDNA. Otherwise I agree with you


----------



## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> Actually the Vaccine does get into your rDNA. Otherwise I agree with you


A quick search should provide ample evidence that it isn't possible for mRNA to affect DNA, but here is one explanation from Forbes:

"One of the most popular circulating mistruths at the moment is that mRNA vaccines will alter your DNA, with pseudoscientific content flooding social networks such as Twitter, Facebook and YouTube. The good news is that they simply can’t do this, which will come as a disappointment to some who were hoping that this might be their chance for superpowers, but where did this belief in DNA-changing vaccines come from?

“I think people are concerned that because this is genetic material injected into the body, could it somehow mix in with your own genetic material and change it,” said Sara Riordan, President of the National Society of Genetic Counselors.

But there are crucial differences between DNA which carries all of the information we inherited from our parents and mRNA, which the Moderna and Pfizer/BioNTech vaccines are made of. DNA is double-stranded, very very long and bundled up tightly together inside a part of the cell called the nucleus. mRNA is a single-stranded copy of a small part of DNA, which is routinely made in the nucleus, but then released into the main part of the cell so that the instructions it carries can be ‘read’ and made into a variety of proteins needed by the cell.

“mRNA is naturally made by the body, it encodes instructions for your body's cells to make protein. Any mRNA vaccine has the same purpose, to teach and train your body to make an immune response toward a particular pathogen, so if the pathogen gets into your body, your immune system can attack it,” said Riordan."


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Your right to refuse vaccination ends when you put others at risk of getting covid.


The vaccine doesn't keep you from spreading covid or becoming infected with it yourself for that matter.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

todd_xxxx said:


> A quick search should provide ample evidence that it isn't possible for mRNA to affect DNA, but here is one explanation from Forbes:
> 
> "One of the most popular circulating mistruths at the moment is that mRNA vaccines will alter your DNA, with pseudoscientific content flooding social networks such as Twitter, Facebook and YouTube. The good news is that they simply can’t do this, which will come as a disappointment to some who were hoping that this might be their chance for superpowers, but where did this belief in DNA-changing vaccines come from?
> 
> ...



You win. Icannot type well


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

kinderfeld said:


> The vaccine doesn't keep you from spreading covid or becoming infected with it yourself for that matter.


You are 1000 times more likely to get covid if you aren't vaccinated. That's pretty good protection.


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Nevada said:


> You are 1000 times more likely to get covid if you aren't vaccinated. That's pretty good protection.


Untrue, but neither here nor there.
Getting the vaccine may protect you. It doesn't protect others. 



Nevada said:


> Your right to refuse vaccination ends when you put others at risk of getting covid.


There's a difference between putting yourself at risk and putting others at risk.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> You are 1000 times more likely to get covid if you aren't vaccinated. That's pretty good protection.


Source please?


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I posted that in the context of nurses in a hospital setting. It's becoming a standard condition of employment at hospitals. *But they're always free to resign rather than get vaccinated.*


Some do. With a major shortage of nurses in this country, probably not a good idea to push them like some facilities are.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Maybe so, but it's a reality that we'll have to live with.
> 
> But not me, of course. Even if I weren't retired and was 20 years younger I wouldn't work at a job setting. I do fine with system admin work from home.
> 
> As I said, nobody listens to me anyway.


Do you pay taxes on that system admin work you do from home?
Still waiting on those tax returns you said you had no problem with giving me to analyze. Is there a problem, you said there wasn't, remember? Where are they?


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

kinderfeld said:


> Getting the vaccine may protect you. It doesn't protect others.


If you don't have it, you can't give it to anyone.


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Nevada said:


> If you don't have it, you can't give it to anyone.


The vaccine doesn't keep you from getting it (the virus). It only lessens the severity/symptoms.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> If you don't have it, you can't give it to anyone.


You are perpetuating misinformation. The vaccine is intended to prevent people from getting severe symptoms. 

There is plenty of science available showing there are breakthrough cases the manufacturers have indicated that they do not provide 100% protection.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Vaccines give your immune system a way to fight the infection. You have to get the infection to fight it. The faster you fight it, the better chance you have of not becoming infectious to others. Less infectious people means less infection to pass around.

Building immunity in more of the population helps those that either can't have a shot because of medical reasons or don't get a great deal of immune response from the vaccine or having the infection.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The infection rates have tanked. Of course I'm not reading about stroke and burn victims diagnosed with covid anymore either.
About half of the population has had a jab. The sinking numbers might tell you that our natural immune systems are handling it if you are willing to hear it. But then that herd immunity thing could have happened a long time ago too.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> If you don't have it, you can't give it to anyone.


If you have it and don't know it, you can give it to everyone who comes in contact with you. Vaccinations hide the truth.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> You are 1000 times more likely to get covid if you aren't vaccinated. That's pretty good protection.


Not true.


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Nevada said:


> Maybe so, but* it's a reality that we'll have to live with.*
> 
> But not me, of course. Even if I weren't retired and was 20 years younger I wouldn't work at a job setting. I do fine with system admin work from home.
> 
> As I said, nobody listens to me anyway.


So even if it's wrong, people should just roll over, suck it up, and live with it? 

And because your work doesn't require you to live as a wage slave, too bad so sad for the people who chose other careers?

Oy.

You appear to a lot in common with Neville Chamberlain.


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

painterswife said:


> They are free to change jobs. I read that here all the time. Don't like the job conditions move on.


What about the cadets at West Point?


----------



## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Pony said:


> What about the cadets at West Point?


For the record, military people have been forced to get vaccinations pretty much forever. And yes, experimental ones, and in combinations that make it next to impossible for anyone to predict interactions. Ask me how I know. I was forced, under threat of article 15 to get a spinal tap (now called a lumbar puncture because it doesn't sound quite as terrible) because I had a headache. Turned out to be a sinus infection. The military can force you to do all kinds of things you wouldn't do otherwise. Say for instance, storm a beach when you have a 25% survival rate. Pretty much everyone that joins the military knows these things up front.


----------



## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

Currently, because the vaccine is only authorized under emergency use, the military cannot make them mandatory. They have of course, encouraged service members to get vaccinated and have incentivized them to some extent by easing some restrictions, but that is as far as they are able to go at this time. If/when they are fully approved by the FDA, it will be a different story but until then they are voluntary.

Military May Revisit Making COVID-19 Vaccines Mandatory After FDA Grants Approval


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> Source please?











COVID-19 Vaccine


I think you TOTALLY missed the point about early research into the harms of cigarette smoke. The research was funded by the tobacco companies and then suppressed. You don't think that industry funded their own research into greenhouse gases & climate change, and then suppressed the findings?




www.homesteadingtoday.com


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wr said:


> The vaccine is intended to prevent people from getting severe symptoms.


The vaccines are extremely effective in preventing covid. Breakthrough cases are very rare, approximately 0.01%.

Understand that the vaccine can only work if a patient makes antibodies in response to the vaccine. People who have a compromised immune system and those who take immunosuppressants will have a decreased response to the vaccine. So breakthrough cases are not necessarily the fault of the vaccine.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

How many are asymptomatic?


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> How many are asymptomatic?


The CDC reports 617 cases out of the 139 million fully vaccinated people, but that sounds low. I doubt we'll ever get an accurate count because asymptomatic people have no compelling reason to get tested.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> The CDC reports 617 cases out of the 139 million fully vaccinated people, but that sounds low. I doubt we'll ever get an accurate count because asymptomatic people have no compelling reason to get tested.


Exactly and they can spread the illness to those that are fragile. Hopefully there will be a concerted effort to produce better treatment for those that do get seriously ill from this.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Exactly and they can spread the illness to those that are fragile. Hopefully there will be a concerted effort to produce better treatment for those that do get seriously ill from this.


Just because we can't get an accurate head count is no reason to jump to the conclusion that the number might be high. Keep in mind that clinical trials done while seeking FDA approval showed high effectiveness in preventing covid infection.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Pony said:


> So even if it's wrong, people should just roll over, suck it up, and live with it?
> 
> And because your work doesn't require you to live as a wage slave, too bad so sad for the people who chose other careers?
> 
> ...


That may very well explain the big push back on employees returning to offices. I've read there are a lot that are threatening to quit if the can't keep working from home.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Just because we can't get an accurate head count is no reason to jump to the conclusion that the number might be high. Keep in mind that clinical trials done while seeking FDA approval showed high effectiveness in preventing covid infection.



Those trials were rushed. I don't see how they can still be accurate. This piecemeal testing or non testing is sad to say the least. There may be more variants out in the wild. CDC or fauci was concerned and now don't seem to be. There needs to be adequate treatment protocol. 

From what I see we are still in trials. As to my other point why is there not a push to find treatments that are more effective.


----------



## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

no really said:


> Those trials were rushed. I don't see how they can still be accurate. This piecemeal testing or non testing is sad to say the least. There may be more variants out in the wild. CDC or fauci was concerned and now don't seem to be. There needs to be adequate treatment protocol.
> 
> From what I see we are still in trials. As to my other point why is there not a push to find treatments that are more effective.


I went to a source outside the US, since most people don't trust of answers coming from the US at this point, but bottom line is that the trials were not "rushed" in the sense that steps were skipped or hurried over. Funding is the reason vaccine trials take years instead of months normally, and funding was not an issue in this instance.

"Was the development of the COVID-19 vaccines rushed or pushed through? Do we really know it’s safe?
Answer: 
There are a few ways to answer this, but in all cases, the conclusion that the medical and scientific community has made is that the COVID-19 vaccines are safe.
The medical and scientific community is confident in the vaccine’s safety, because of the track record of Canada (and B.C.’s) vaccine approval and safety monitoring system. While it’s true that normally vaccines take an average of 10 years to approve, this is because of several factors, most of which have nothing to do with the actual science. One obvious factor is funding - often, scientists have to look for funding after each phase in the development of a vaccine. This delays the work for years. In other words, rather than being able to pursue science, usually scientists take long pauses looking for funding. In the case of the COVID-19 vaccine, this was not an issue.
Another reason that vaccine approvals take very long is again tied to funding but in a different way. Normally, the 3 different trial phases are done one at a time, because they don’t usually have the funding to conduct them all at once. Instead, this time all three phases were done at the same time with the help of volunteers and sufficient funding. Again, this means that the end data and safety tests are exactly the same as other vaccines that have been approved in Canada. It just took less time. In short, Canada’s system has proven time and again that the data necessary to get through the approval process is sufficient to prove safety, even for the long-term. Learn more about how B.C. will monitor vaccine uptake, safety and effectiveness."


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

When they mandate the military taking the vaccine I will consider it tested, at this point it is considered experimental. Is the vaccine approved FDA? Last I heard it wasn't yet.


----------



## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

Nevada said:


> ……COVID-19 isn't just some game we're playing, and it's not an exercise in personal rights. It's a deadly pandemic, the likes of which none of us have ever seen before, provided that none of us are over 103 years old.


It works if you choose to believe in the TV and the talking heads therein. I do not.

So much of this sounds a lot to me like a bogey man deliberately created to scare otherwise law abiding people into some kind of terrorizing obedience, just to see how long and how far some unseen unchosen authority can play this game and get away with it.

The hand of man is clearly evident in all of this.

I doubt 98% of what my government says and the same for the news. Especially my Canadian liberal government which has been very distrustful since the beginning.

Throughout any event I watch keenly for little discrepancies throughout the whole event for many months, not just on local news but elsewhere, and I keep notes of vital bits in my memory.

It takes a long and patient effort but the engineering training, a lifetime of Sherlock Holmes stories and a natural interest in collecting information and knitting a story together out of it all are helpful.

These talking heads in gooberment and on the TV still do not have my trust and I’m extremely doubtful about whatever it is they’re injecting into people.

So for now I’ll just sit back, wait it out and see who and what implodes.

You may choose to believe and do what you feel in your conscience is right for you and I will do the same for myself.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> If you don't have it, you can't give it to anyone.


Vaccine does not prevent you from getting covid, from what I read so far. You best wear two mask and stay home and safe if your concerned.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

todd_xxxx said:


> For the record, military people have been forced to get vaccinations pretty much forever. And yes, experimental ones, and in combinations that make it next to impossible for anyone to predict interactions. Ask me how I know. I was forced, under threat of article 15 to get a spinal tap (now called a lumbar puncture because it doesn't sound quite as terrible) because I had a headache. Turned out to be a sinus infection. The military can force you to do all kinds of things you wouldn't do otherwise. Say for instance, storm a beach when you have a 25% survival rate. Pretty much everyone that joins the military knows these things up front.


And as a result their are a lot of people dealing with side affects from those actions. The military and government has almost as much immunity from bad consequences form these actions as the covid vaccine makers, who are totally immune from any liability.


----------



## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Redlands Okie said:


> And as a result their are a lot of people dealing with side affects from those actions. The military and government has almost as much immunity from bad consequences form these actions as the covid vaccine makers, who are totally immune from any liability.


No question.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

todd_xxxx said:


> I went to a source outside the US, since most people don't trust of answers coming from the US at this point, but bottom line is that the trials were not "rushed" in the sense that steps were skipped or hurried over. Funding is the reason vaccine trials take years instead of months normally, and funding was not an issue in this instance.
> 
> "Was the development of the COVID-19 vaccines rushed or pushed through? Do we really know it’s safe?
> Answer:
> ...


I also did some research as well and learned that it typically takes 5 - 7 years for a new vaccine to be approved in Canada and by the time they are approved, we have firm answers. We know what vaccinations require boosters and how many boosters are required. 

To date, the firm answer on covid vaccines is, 'we don't know.'

I understand why things would have been rushed and I still believe they were. If they weren't rushed, we would have answers on further boosters and we wouldn't have these unexpected side effects springing up that are denied until there are enough instances that they can't be denied. 

Certainly, something needed to be done but just like all the covid journey before, there would be a lot less mistrust if the voices of covid stopped bluffing about a year ago.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Vaccine does not prevent you from getting covid


From the CDC website:

*COVID-19 vaccines are effective at keeping you from getting COVID-19. 






COVID-19 Vaccination


COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




www.cdc.gov




*


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Nevada said:


> From the CDC website:
> 
> *COVID-19 vaccines are effective at keeping you from getting COVID-19.
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...493:covid vaccine:sem.ga:p:RG:GM:gen:pTN:FY21*


Just as a reminder to anyone that doesn't recall:



Nevada said:


> I don't doubt that CDC officials are in the pockets of drug manufacturers.


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Don't know how accurate this is yet, but putting it out there in case someone else has time to do some digging.

Please don't comment unless you look into the materials I'm sharing.









First case of postmortem examination of SARS-CoV-2 vaccinated patient


"Global time bomb" - First case of postmortem examination of SARS-CoV-2 vaccinated patient; viral RNA found in every organ of the body




greatreject.org





*We spoke with an infectious disease specialist at a New Jersey hospital this morning. We sent the autopsy findings to him and asked for his opinion. *_*When he called back a while later, he was clearly shocked. He told us, “You must not mention me by name, or the hospital will fire me.” We agreed to hide his identity.

He then told us:

“People think that only a minority of people get side effects from the vaccine.

Based on this new research, it means that everyone will get side effects – potentially – because those spike proteins will bind to ACE2 receptors all over the body.

That mRNA was supposed to stay at the injection site but it doesn’t. That means that the spike proteins produced by the mRNA will also be in every organ, and we now know that it is the spike proteins that do the damage.

Worse, the viral RNA found in every organ despite a vaccine indicates either:

1) The vaccine does not work at all, OR;

2) The virus experiences antibody dependent amplification (ADE), (meaning it actually spreads FASTER among vaccinated people."*_

Full postmortem report here:









First case of postmortem study in a patient vaccinated against SARS-CoV-2


A previously symptomless 86-year-old man received the first dose of the BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 vaccine. He died 4 weeks later from acute renal and res…




www.sciencedirect.com


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Pony said:


> Don't know how accurate this is yet, but putting it out there in case someone else has time to do some digging.
> 
> Please don't comment unless you look into the materials I'm sharing.
> 
> ...


Greatreject.org? Sounds open-minted.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

no really said:


> Those trials were rushed. I don't see how they can still be accurate. This piecemeal testing or non testing is sad to say the least. There may be more variants out in the wild. CDC or fauci was concerned and now don't seem to be. There needs to be adequate treatment protocol.
> 
> From what I see we are still in trials. As to my other point why is there not a push to find treatments that are more effective.


The vaccine was tested on 2200 kids before it was rolled out for use. That doesn't seem like comprehensive testing to me.


----------



## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Pony said:


> Don't know how accurate this is yet, but putting it out there in case someone else has time to do some digging.
> 
> Please don't comment unless you look into the materials I'm sharing.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting that. We've all now found a valuable new site for getting up to date, factual information, like for instance, the SARS-CoV-2 doesn't exist.

Info about greatreject.org

*CONSPIRACY-PSEUDOSCIENCE*
Sources in the Conspiracy-Pseudoscience category _may_ publish unverifiable information that is _not always_ supported by evidence. These sources _may_ be untrustworthy for credible/verifiable information; therefore, fact-checking and further investigation is recommended on a per article basis when obtaining information from these sources. See all Conspiracy-Pseudoscience sources.


*Overall, the GreatReject rates as a Far-Right Biased website that promotes tin-foil hat conspiracies and quackery-level pseudoscience.*
*Detailed Report*
Bias Rating: *EXTREME RIGHT*
Factual Reporting: *VERY LOW*
Country: *Netherlands (5/180 Press Freedom)*
Media Type: *Website*
Traffic/Popularity: *Minimal Traffic*
MBFC Credibility Rating: *LOW CREDIBILITY

History*
Launched in November 2020, GreatReject is an anonymously run far-right conspiracy and pseudoscience website. The website completely lacks transparency as it does not have an about page or disclose authors, editors, and owners. The domain is registered in the Netherlands.

Read our profile on Netherlands media and government.

*Funded by / Ownership*
GreatReject lacks transparency as they do not disclose who owns them. Display advertising and donations generate revenue for the owner(s).




From APNews:

CLAIM: Scientists, including researchers from seven universities, found that 1,500 laboratory samples that had supposedly tested positive for COVID-19 were actually positive for influenza, proving that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention committed fraud.

AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. The claim, which has circulated before with slightly different information, is fabricated. There is no evidence of such a study, and the identity of the scientist said to have led the investigation cannot be confirmed.

THE FACTS: Social media users are recirculating a debunked claim about COVID-19 lab samples testing positive for flu. The claim makes the false assertion that seven universities, including the University of California, Cornell University and Stanford University, participated in a study that found samples from positive COVID-19 tests were actually influenza.

“These claims have been proven to be false and a hoax,” the University of California said in a statement. “COVID-19 is a disease that has killed more than half a million people in the United States alone.”

Experts say it is virtually impossible to envision any scenario where this kind of mix up in a molecular test would happen.

“To say that a SARS test is just detecting influenza or vice versa is impossible,” said Andrew Pekosz, a virologist and professor at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. “We have never seen influenza behave like we are seeing now with COVID-19. It’s a completely different disease.”

The claim has been online since December and was previously falsely attributed to a Cornell professor who has no link to any study of this nature.

The claim has been repurposed to spread the falsehood that the pandemic is a hoax. *A conspiracy website, The Great Reject, is the latest to include the claim in a story titled, “Laboratories in US can’t find Covid-19 in one of 1,500 positive tests.”

The website has previously posted articles that support the false conspiracy theory that the SARS-CoV-2 virus that causes COVID-19 does not exist. *Attempts to reach the website were unsuccessful.

More gems from GreatReject.org.... Who knew our heart doesn't actually pump blood?

*The heart is not a pump: a refutation of the pressure propulsion premise of heart function*
BY GREATREJECT · 01/04/2021

*“Asymptomatic patient” is a hoax*
At this point, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence showing that the PCR tests are...

COVID-19 / MEDICAL SCIENCE
15/01/2021
*Oh and by the way, covid-19 virus does not exist*
Various experts debunking the covid hoax. (this post will stay updated) link 1 

MEDICAL SCIENCE
30/04/2021
*Doctors warn of possible transmission of the spike protein created by the injected mRNA to unvaccinated people*
Several doctors and nurses have noted that certain people who come into the vicinity of covid-vaccinated...


And yes, Dr Tenpenny, the person that claims the vaccine "magnetizes" people, and they can now stick keys and spoons and thing to their foreheads.
*Dr. Tenpenny & Medical Panel Discuss Covid-19 Vax*
BY GREATREJECT · 27/04/2021


----------



## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Fox News: Color-coded bracelets aim to help customers gauge comfort levels for interactions.








Color-coded bracelets aim to help customers gauge comfort levels for interactions


A Wisconsin grocery store is giving its customers the option to choose color-coded bracelets to signal to others how comfortable they are with spontaneous interactions, a report said.




www.foxnews.com


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> From the CDC website:
> 
> *COVID-19 vaccines are effective at keeping you from getting COVID-19.
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...493:covid vaccine:sem.ga:p:RG:GM:gen:pTN:FY21*


You should have read a bit further: 

What We Are Still Learning

We are still learning how well vaccines prevent you from spreading the virus that causes COVID-19 to others, even if you do not have symptoms. Early data show that vaccines help keep people with no symptoms from spreading COVID-19.
We are also still learning how long COVID-19 vaccines protect people.
We are still learning how many people have to be vaccinated against COVID-19 before the population can be considered protected (population immunity).
We are still learning how effective the vaccines are against new variants of the virus that causes COVID-19.
They also seem to gloss over some potentially serious side effects as well. It's easier to force people to take a vaccine when the facts are fudged a bit.


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Nevada said:


> Greatreject.org? Sounds open-minted.


Just like you.

You didn't read the postmortem report.

I'll bet dollars to donuts you didn't read anything past the first link - just the link itself, not the story there.


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

todd_xxxx said:


> Thanks for posting that. We've all now found a valuable new site for getting up to date, factual information, like for instance, the SARS-CoV-2 doesn't exist.
> 
> Info about greatreject.org
> 
> ...


And you used AP for your "fact checking," which show you aren't interested in facts, only in your personal echo chamber.

/bye


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

OMG...OMG...OMG! Last I was on here (+ a year ago), you all were having peeing contests about this stuff... wear a mask... don't wear a mask... Covid exists... no it don't... the vaccine is safe... no it isn't... your evidence is more wingn ut than mine... no it's not???

I chose to go out in public... or not. I chose to wear a mask... or not. I chose to get the vaccine... or not. The choice I will confirm is that I'll believe what I believe... and do what I believe is best for me and mine... and not discuss nor argue about it for the next 12 months.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

homesteadforty said:


> OMG...OMG...OMG! Last I was on here (+ a year ago), you all were having peeing contests about this stuff... wear a mask... don't wear a mask... Covid exists... no it don't... the vaccine is safe... no it isn't... your evidence is more wingn ut than mine... no it's not???
> 
> I chose to go out in public... or not. I chose to wear a mask... or not. I chose to get the vaccine... or not. The choice I will confirm is that I'll believe what I believe... and do what I believe is best for me and mine... and not discuss nor argue about it for the next 12 months.


'I'd like to think I have better things to do, but evidently not.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The staff at the medical research facility where I am participating in an RSV trial (in its THIRD YEAR) said explicitly that the Covid “vaccines” were NOT tested adequately. She specifically said that persons taking the non-FDA approved, emergency released Covid injections are the TEST SUBJECTS. She stated that the recipients SHOULD have received that information so that they could provide informed consent.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Pony said:


> And you used AP for your "fact checking," which show you aren't interested in facts, only in your personal echo chamber.
> 
> /bye


I used that as one source. I used the site itself to grab those articles, and another source as well. Of course, none of those can hold a candle to your site that won't even list the owner or any of the writers. Talk about echo chamber. 

I'm heavily right leaning myself. It doesn't mean I buy all the nonsense hook line and sinker. Qanon was garbage, and it's right wing conservatives claiming the vaccine magnetized people. There is nonsense on both sides. It's just far more on the left.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I think only the wacko woman thought she was magnetic.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> From the CDC website:
> 
> *COVID-19 vaccines are effective at keeping you from getting COVID-19.
> 
> ...


7 item from the top of your link. 

What We Are Still Learning
We are still learning how well vaccines prevent you from spreading the virus that causes COVID-19 to others, even if you do not have symptoms. Early data show that vaccines help keep people with no symptoms from spreading COVID-19.


You cannot spread it unless you have it. Thats basic summon sense. Which i am not finding in your comment saying it keeps you from getting covid. Try again.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Forcast said:


> Fox News: Color-coded bracelets aim to help customers gauge comfort levels for interactions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Neat idea, but if someone is really in truly worried about covid and I see them…….. then there is a really good chance that person is not even attempting to practice basic safety protocols. If they are close enough to me for me to see a bracelet, then there is very little chance that they are practicing safe interactions.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I think only the wacko woman thought she was magnetic.


That would be nice, but Dr Tenpenny referenced all the people you see all over the internet sticking metal objects to themselves after getting the vaccine. She also brought a nurse with her that tried to demonstrate it with a bobby pin on her neck. The pin falling over and over did nothing to dissuade her. You can watch it here :
Tenpenny testifies

And the nurse saying the key and pin stick to her as they fall off :

Magnetic Nurse


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## mamagoose (Nov 28, 2003)

Nevada said:


> If you don't have it, you can't give it to anyone.


Fauci was in a hearing awhile back and told elected government folks that masks had to be worn by the "vaccinated" because they could breathe it in, get stuck in their nostrils, then breathe it back out.


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## mamagoose (Nov 28, 2003)

Nevada said:


> You are 1000 times more likely to get covid if you aren't vaccinated. That's pretty good protection.


How are you "likely to get covid if you aren't vaccinated" if you've already had it?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Not watching wackos. I guess I don’t follow the wacko news or know enough wackos.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

painterswife said:


> You might believe  that but I don't and billions others don't as well.


Data is being supressed. As of May 1, the CDC is not accepting reports of breakthrough cases unless the vaccinated person is admitted to the hospital or dies.





__





CDC narrows monitoring of breakthrough COVID-19 cases


The CDC changed how it tracks breakthrough COVID-19 cases among fully vaccinated Americans this month, spurring concerns from scientists about the potential for inadequate data, reports Bloomberg.




www.beckershospitalreview.com





And here the CDC admits breakthrough cases are likely a substantial undercount.









COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Infections Reported to CDC ...


COVID-19 vaccines are a critical tool for controlling the ongoing global pandemic.




www.cdc.gov







Nevada said:


> Your right to refuse vaccination ends when you put others at risk of getting covid.


Even vaccinated people can contract and spread covid.


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## mamagoose (Nov 28, 2003)

Danaus29 said:


> Data is being supressed. As of May 1, the CDC is not accepting reports of breakthrough cases unless the vaccinated person is admitted to the hospital or dies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fauci said so himself as one of his reasons to insist "vaccinated" people continue to wear masks.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> There is concern with all medical procedures. You weigh the odds and decide for yourself. When they start handcuffing people to inject them, get back to me.


I completely agree with you that people should be allowed to weigh the odds and make their own decisions without coercion.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> Your right to refuse vaccination ends when you put others at risk of getting covid.


If you're fully vaccinated, what right or reason would you have to force others to do the same? Your body, your choice, correct?


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Danaus29 said:


> Data is being supressed. As of May 1, the CDC is not accepting reports of breakthrough cases unless the vaccinated person is admitted to the hospital or dies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like the gentleman whose postmortem is posted here:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971221003647


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