# What is a good all around hunting shotgun (for a female)



## Forest (Oct 14, 2010)

What, in your opinion, would be a good all around hunting shotgun for a female of middle height and normal body weight?

The more I read, the more confused I get. Low recoil seems like a good concept. Apparently, semiautomatic shotguns tend to have less recoil- but the semiautomatic shotguns that advertise low recoil seem to be predominantly for bird hunting. Which is great, but I would like a gun that in addition to small game can also take down a deer, boar, or, if necessary in case of self defense, a human. Is there such a thing with low recoil, or at least something that doesn't beat you up too badly?

12 gauge or 20 gauge?

Until recently, Ohio only allowed hunting deer with slugs, so I was looking at shotguns. But now they have allowed rifles firing straight walled cartridges... which I have not looked into at all. Is there something in that group that would fit the bill?

I value quality, reliability, and durability.

Let me know your thoughts.

(Cross posting this in Outdoors forum)


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## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

Mossberg 500 20ga pump.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I started with a Remington 1100LT this was the youth/ladies gun of the day 

now they make a 20ga 11-87 that is an 1100 but that can take a 3 inch shell 

pump 20s also offer a good choice , my son bought his 20ga Mossberg 500c with 26 inch barrel with chock tubes he shoots it well , he is 11 now and about 5'2"135 pounds to give you an idea of size

for versatility you want to have screw in choke tubes 

the 500c will do 2 3/4 or 3 inch 20ga shells and 23/4 slugs are not to bad for recoil 

so for a solid gun on a budget a 20ga pump either a Mossberg 500c or the 870 youth 20 ga 

for greater reduction in recoil a semi rem 1100 or 11-87 or mossberg offers some semis 

pumps will cycle everything form the lightest tot he heaviest loads , some autos will have problems with some very light loads but are generally quite reliable 

autos are a bit more maintenance but not anything unreasonable thjere are some neoprene washers that need replacing form time to time it is about 8-10 dollars in parts every 10 years or so for most people 

pumps have no gas system so no concerns about seals 

lighter loads help felt recoil as in less shot a 7/8 oz load recoils less than a 1 1/8 oz load 

it would be good if you could find a trap club or somthing that rents guns and try a pump and an auto and see what she likes 

a auto can definitely fire slugs , buck shot , or bird shot the same as a pump , but some very light loads may need to be hand cycled

there are several great options in strait wall pistol cartridges that can bring 150-200 yard accuracy and reasonable range ans still have modest recoil lever guns in 44mag are and excellent choice as are bolts and single shot break actions in 44mag , what can be a hand full in a handgun is tame in a rifle but still very effective 

on a budget a CVA hunter or H&R handi rifle offer very good value 
for lever guns the Rossi offers a good value , then there is always the Marlin but it will cost more.
Ruger offers a 44mag bolt action rifle 

but you won't hunt much for small game with a 44 unless you hand load very reduced rounds , a shotgun still gives the most versatility but not the best range for recoil trad off however rifled slug barrels and sabot-ted slugs have also changed the shotgun slug shooting world to increase range


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## Murphy625 (Oct 16, 2014)

Get a 20 or 12 gauge.. Remington 870.. mount a scope on it (use steel rings) and purchase an aftermarket stock that will allow you to fill it with extra weight.

Take the gun to a gunsmith and have them port the barrel.. The tiny holes allow air back in and reduces the recoil. 

Newton's third law applies to recoil so you want to fire ammunition with lighter loads...

His second law applies to inertia so you want to add extra weight to the firearm to "soak up" some of the energy from the first law. 

In other words.. Use lighter bullets with less gun powder and add some weight to the gun to make the recoil feel more gentile. 

The reason you want the 870 is due to the massive amount of spare and aftermarket accessories you can get with it.

I would not buy a Mossberg anything.. I think they're junk.. but that's just my opinion..


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## hawgsquatch (May 11, 2014)

Remington 870 youth, Mossberg 500 youth, Benelli nova youth. 12 or 20 depending on the weight and upper body strength of the user. You can feed a 12 lighter loads but you can only Magnum up a 20 so far.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

My wife has a pair of Charles Daily over unders. A 12 with fixed chokes full and extra full great for turkeys and geese before steel shot was required.
A 20ga. with changeable chokes, mod and imp cyl for early bird upland hunting, rifles chokes for deer hunting and any thing in between like sporting clays and skeet shooting.

A nice 870 Remington combo in 20ga. would be a nice shot gun in any gun safe.
A smooth barrel with changeable chokes for small game and a riffled cantilevered barrel for deer hunting. 

My southern Michigan shot gun zone gun is a Remington 870 slugger.



And some times a Remington 700 54cal. muzzle loader.

 Al


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

just following!

Wade


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I'm personally a Winchester fan.. but they ain't cheap like a Remington 870 is... 

You never suggested a price range... and if you have no problem with Winchester prices, there are even more better guns out there than Winchester and Remington.

You said you value quality, reliability and durability ... Good guns like that don't come cheap.. .


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## Murphy625 (Oct 16, 2014)

simi-steading said:


> I'm personally a Winchester fan.. but they ain't cheap like a Remington 870 is...
> 
> You never suggested a price range... and if you have no problem with Winchester prices, there are even more better guns out there than Winchester and Remington.
> 
> You said you value quality, reliability and durability ... Good guns like that don't come cheap.. .


Wow!! their SX3 slug gun is almost $1000!!! For that price, it should find the deer as well as gut it and skin it for me..


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Murphy625 said:


> Wow!! their SX3 slug gun is almost $1000!!! For that price, it should find the deer as well as gut it and skin it for me..


I agree, I've handled one, and man is it a nice gun... I sure would have liked to shot it... If I was still making the money I used to, then I could maybe justify the price.. but since I'm not now, I'll stick to my old cheap 1300...


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## cappy (Sep 22, 2014)

20 gauge in whatever make and model you prefer. I prefer the Mossberg 500 but that is my preference. There are several barrels availabe at reasonable prices that make the base model very versitile. Many an argument has been started over the best shotgun. One thing I suggest is a $30 investment in a Sims Limbsaver or similar butt pad. It drastically reduces the felt recoil and makes shooting and gun much more enjoyable.

Ken


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## Forest (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks for all the input! 

This is a lot of info! It's going to be a work in progress to integrate all of it-

To answer some of the questions above- regarding price range- I would obviously prefer to keep the price within reason. However, I could see spending more if the gun is really superior & perfect fit. I can't really justify spending north of 1.5-2k, no matter how great the gun is. Wow, 10k guns! Must be nice to have that kind of money...

Regarding what will be hunted- This will be an eat what you shoot thing- deer is extremely likely, goose, duck, pigs somewhat likely, and turkey, rabbit, squirrel, dove, pheasant a possibility... depending on how much fun it will be to hunt them.

We went to the range today. The only shotgun they had for rent was a FN 12 ga semi automatic tactical something or other. It shot just fine. First tried dove shot, no problem with the recoil, and then fired some slugs as well. Little bit more recoil, but as long as you're not going to fire a hundred rounds, I don't see a problem with the 12 ga for this woman.

I will definitely try to find a Mossberg 500 and Remington 870 to shoot, since those keep coming up in recommendations. Maybe some of the other ranges in the area have some to rent.

The more I learn, the more I feel it is going to take a bit of time and trial and error to find the right fit- can't quite imagine buying a gun that I haven't shot before- or ordering one online- how would you invest several hundred or a thousand dollars for something you haven't tried out? Kind of like buying a car without test driving it.

Thanks for the suggestions on modifications, such as the butt pad or modifying the stock- I will need to look into that and watch a lot of youtube videos so I can make sure I understand what everyone is talking about! But you are pointing me in good directions, thanks!


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Shop used at a pawn shop even. If you find you don't care for it you can usually get every penny spent back in a matter of days. Normaly can't do that with a new gun.

 Al


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

When you start getting around the $1K range, a lot of really nice guns present their selves.. That Winchester SX3 is one such gun.. Much nicer than a 500 or 870.. It's really not that much more expensive than 870's are running now though.


Remington and Mossburg are popular because they are good budget guns. They are the VW or Prius of the shotgun world.. People can justify the price for a gun to drag through the woods or onto the water.

I've sat and watched people say they can't see paying a lot for a shotgun, yet they own rifles that are worth several thousand each...I don't get it.... they understand the value of a high end rifle, but don't see why a shotgun can be just as expensive, and why it is worth that... 

If you want to look at some real nice guns, look at Winchester, Beretta, Benelli, Browning.....

CZ is making some real nice shotguns now that are under $500... Stoeger also imports nice affordable guns. Both have a reputation of being well built.

I've been real lucky and have had the chance to shoot some real high end guns... $5000 and up, and I can tell you, its a world of difference over shooting an old Ithica...


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## Murphy625 (Oct 16, 2014)

Forest said:


> The more I learn, the more I feel it is going to take a bit of time and trial and error to find the right fit- can't quite imagine buying a gun that I haven't shot before- or ordering one online- how would you invest several hundred or a thousand dollars for something you haven't tried out? Kind of like buying a car without test driving it.


That's kind of a bad analogy in my opinion.. A gun is a gun and they all kick.. And unless you change the type of grip or the material of the grip, they all feel pretty much the same.. 

I can pretty much say that firing one 12 ga slug gun is going to feel identical to firing another.. 

Unlike a complicated and complex piece of machinery like a car that encompasses your entire physical body and requires your entire physical body to operate, a gun is a very very simply piece of equipment.. actually, its closer to a shovel than it is a car.. 

I would strongly suggest that you go for practicality over specialty in your case.. The Rem 870 is the most practical shotgun you can own.. There is a very good reason when you can find tens of thousands of aftermarket and spare parts for them... The 870 is one of the most ubiquitous firearms in existence due to its affordability, reliability and now ease of finding parts and modifications for it. Even the cops use them... 

Your post said you wanted a good all-around shotgun.. Choosing an 870 is a no brainer... Get the cantilevered scope mount and you won't even need to re-zero it when you change barrels from a smooth bore to a slug.

Also, as for slugs.. Go buy Hornady SST 300 grain slugs for it.. you won't be sorry.. At 100 yards, they group so tight the holes can overlap.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Murphy625 said:


> .
> 
> I can pretty much say that firing one 12 ga slug gun is going to feel identical to firing another..
> 
> Unlike a complicated and complex piece of machinery like a car that encompasses your entire physical body and requires your entire physical body to operate, a gun is a very very simply piece of equipment.. actually, its closer to a shovel than it is a car..


I can't agree with this at all... One gun can and will feel very different from another. Recoil can be effected by things like barrel length, comb drop, bolt type, and so forth... 

An improper fitting gun can cause you to miss a lot of shots, and increase recoil.. I've shot guns that were a dream to shoot, and just felt so natural, and I've shot others that was like wearing a cheap pair of underwear... annoying as all get out.. 

When I pick up a new shotgun I've not held, the first thing I do is close my eyes and bring it to my shoulder quick as possible and lay my face on it, then open my eyes... 

How easy did the gun get into my shoulder? Stock too long? too short? How natural does it feel? Is your eye directly behind the sight? Does your fore hand feel like it's in the right place? Does the fore stock fit your hand? 

Tons of questions to ask and answer as you do the little test I mention above.

You can get used to the way a shotgun fits you, but once you've found one that truly fits, you get why they are not all created equal..


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## Janis R (Jun 27, 2013)

I read all of the above responses and they seem to be mostly men.
I have a Mossberg 500 20g with interchangeable barrels for hunting and defense. You can get in youth size if you are small framed. Use a thicker butt pad if the recoil bothers you but that will lengthen the pull. 18 inch barrel for home defense and long barrel for defense. You can get buckshot, slugs, field shot, bird shot and other types of shot.
Good luck


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the 500c comes with a wood stock it can be cut to fit your exact needs 

I have a 500A and a 870 both in 12 ga 

my son has a 500C 20ga with 26 inch barrel and it is so much more pleasant to shoot that I was seriously thinking of buying one for myself

300-350 is about the starting point for these guns new , if I was going to spend more it would be on an 1100 or 11-87 20ga 

one of the benefits of the 500 or 870 besides solid value and very functional , there are literally millions of them so parts and accessories are very readily available


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Murphy625 said:


> That's kind of a bad analogy in my opinion.. A gun is a gun and they all kick.. And unless you change the type of grip or the material of the grip, they all feel pretty much the same..
> 
> I can pretty much say that firing one 12 ga slug gun is going to feel identical to firing another..
> 
> ...


I agree the 870 is a gun that just fits a huge cross section of the population 

but my 12ga 500A is is lighter than my 870 12ga and recoils harder , my 1100 12ga is heavier than both and has the benefit of being an Auto it definitely is much tamer in recoil 

I would just stay away from 12 if there is any concern of recoil 

at a both hunters safety field day recent pheasants forever kids event the 1100 20ga was definitely the go to gun with the 20ga 870 a close second


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Murphy625 said:


> That's kind of a bad analogy in my opinion.. A gun is a gun and they all kick.. And unless you change the type of grip or the material of the grip, they all feel pretty much the same..
> 
> I can pretty much say that firing one 12 ga slug gun is going to feel identical to firing another..


Actually, the OP's analogy is a perfect one- she nailed it with her comparison. Guns are so particular that there really is no way to know if one is right for you other than to test-drive it. Unlike a car or a shovel, a gun is designed to violently shove the user every time they use it, so the ergonomics have to be a prime consideration when choosing one. 

Put aside the fit, balance, and grip/butt materials, I did the math on a shotgun firing a conventional 1 oz 1200 fps slug. A 7# shotgun (like the Mossberg) is going to give the shooter 20 ft/lb recoil shove, with an 8# one (like the Remington) is closer to 18 ft/lb. That is a difference of 10%, just on weight alone.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Mossberg 500 or stoeger 12 Gauge. Both work great for me and affordable. The smug barrel for Mossberg is much more accurate than my 870 Remington.


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## dltasig7 (Feb 5, 2015)

Forest said:


> What, in your opinion, would be a good all around hunting shotgun for a female of middle height and normal body weight?
> 
> The more I read, the more confused I get. Low recoil seems like a good concept. Apparently, semiautomatic shotguns tend to have less recoil- but the semiautomatic shotguns that advertise low recoil seem to be predominantly for bird hunting. Which is great, but I would like a gun that in addition to small game can also take down a deer, boar, or, if necessary in case of self defense, a human. Is there such a thing with low recoil, or at least something that doesn't beat you up too badly?
> 
> ...


I'm about to get my wife a Remington Youth or Compact in 20 gauge - used if I can find one first. (She has short arms. A 12 gauge might not kick too hard cuz she's a tough little Irish woman, but that's another story.)

We're not rich, so I'll start her with the smooth bore, modified choke so she can do anything with it to start (rifled deer slugs, trap/skeet, fowl, etc.) a 20 is more than enough to knock a deer down if used by a marks(wo)man. Besides, I'm not only a stickler and old fashioned (skill and tradition over innovation), but in the woods I hunt, I can't get off an unobstructed shot more than 80-90 yards anyway. (I don't hunt field edges or shoot over hills.) I can consistently hit a 9" paper plate at 50 yards, very close to the center, and I take deer beyond 50 from the ground, standing and from stands over 50 yards. (To me scopes are only for rifles - and then open sights are my preference, because I don't hunt mountain goats.)


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

after now owning a rifled slug barrel I can say , just give me a smooth bore so I can shoot my cheap Winchester slugs they work and don't cost 3 dollars each 

I will give some more loads a try I may not have given it a fair shake yet but it doesn't have me running to the store to buy rifled slug barrels for every shot gun

screw in choke tubes those I do like I would definitely pay 50-100 dollars more for a gun that is otherwise equal to have commonly available choke tubes it is just savings down the road 

since the youth 870 comes with these for about 325 new you should be set 

I do like a low powered scope on a deer shotgun , but if you get it drilled and tapped for a side mount you can take it off for the rest of the seasons and it doesn't get in the way


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

Forest said:


> Thanks for all the input!
> 
> This is a lot of info! It's going to be a work in progress to integrate all of it-
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if the OP is still following this thread? 

Rifles that fire straight wall cartridges are generally chambered for pistol cartridges. For instance, I can buy a rifle that takes the same ammunition as my 357 magnum revolvers. They can be used for deer but don't have the range of a rifle like a 243 or a 30-06 that holds way more powder in their bottle neck cartridges. Unless you are Annie Oakley they are not good for birds on the wing. 

The best gun for all the things you want to use it for is a shotgun. You have already fired shells with the least recoil, dove loads, and the most, slugs. You say you can handle them in a 12 gauge semiauto. Realize that you can buy loads the are tailored for the game you are after. The stores carry the widest selection of loads for 12 gauge because they are the most popular. They are the cheapest for the same reason. 

The most important thing you can do is get a gun that fits you. You should be able to close your eyes, shoulder the gun, put your cheek on the comb, and be looking straight down the top of the barrell/vent rib when you open them. Be sure to allow for the thickness of heavier clothing you will be wearing in cold weather.

Go to a local gun club on a Saturday afternoon. Explain to the members what you are up too and I bet they will be willing to loan you their guns to fire a few rounds to see how they fit. Many of them will have very expensive guns especially for shooting clay. These are not what you want. Bring a box of target loads so you are not mooching off them. 

Buy a shotgun with interchangeable chokes. You will need an open choke, like cylinder bore, for grouse and deer slugs, a modified choke for pheasants and ducks over decoys, and a full choke for pass shooting ducks and late season pheasants. A shotgun doesn't performs well with some load/choke combinations. Do pattern it and stick with combinations that do well. My 870, with a full choke and #4 shot has holes in the pattern you could throw a cow through. 

Shop at gun stores and pawn shops for used guns. You can probably save hundreds. I don't like gunbroker.com or gunsamerica.com because I like to handle a gun before I buy it and the sellers usually offer their guns at high prices. Watch out for guns that have been used a lot. Most guns are like outboard motors, they have been used for about 10 hours a year so there is very little wear on them. Get a gunsmith to check the gun out before you buy. 

I can't spend thousands for a gun so I stick to the more economical models mentioned here. I am partial to my Remington 870 but picked up an 1100 (semiauto) for the reduced recoil.

Hope this helps.


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## hoddedloki (Nov 14, 2014)

Pretty much all shotguns are designed for men. Men generally have a longer Length Of Pull (LOP), and have somewhat different shoulder geometries than women do. This leaves two options; limit your search to youth/women's models, or buy a regular shotgun and get it altered. When my wife needed a shotgun, I took her shopping, and she fell in love with a 12-gauge mossy 500, which we then had the LOP reduced, and a nice cushy butt stock fitted. She likes it better than my 20 gauge now.

My Suggestion, take her shopping and let her pick the shotgun that she thinks is 'the prettiest,' and get it custom fitted. Than get her trained up in using it, even if it means paying for her to take a class from someone else. (That way she gets trained right, and when she makes the newbie mistakes, you are not the one telling her she is wrong.)

Loki


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## A-K-A (Apr 5, 2015)

Forest said:


> What, in your opinion, would be a good all around hunting shotgun for a female of middle height and normal body weight?
> 
> The more I read, the more confused I get. Low recoil seems like a good concept. Apparently, semiautomatic shotguns tend to have less recoil- but the semiautomatic shotguns that advertise low recoil seem to be predominantly for bird hunting. Which is great, but I would like a gun that in addition to small game can also take down a deer, boar, or, if necessary in case of self defense, a human. Is there such a thing with low recoil, or at least something that doesn't beat you up too badly?
> 
> ...


Or a twelve gauge. The recoil on a properly fitted shotgun shoild not intimadated the shooter of any sex or body size. 
Mossberg 500 had been around many years for a reason.


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## wogglebug (May 22, 2004)

I've just PMed the OP, asking if she could update us on outcomes from this thread of the living dead.

I missed it, originally. I'll give my thoughts here in case they can maybe help a future reader, even if it does turn out I'm just shouting into the wind.

First, for a woman, unless you're way up there in height, you probably need a youth stock. Anything else would have you "crawling the stock" to get to the trigger, unable to seat the butt firmly against your shoulder. This is neither good for accuracy nor comfort. At least try the youth stocks.

Now, if you consider a straight-wall rifle (which I strongly suggest you do, even if you ultimately decide against), then it should be a .44 Magnum - either the Ruger bolt-action, or the Rossi lever action, or the Rossi in .454 Casull. Both are fierce handgun cartridges and kick like a Tennessee Mule, but they have predecessers which are much milder. The .44 Magnum arose from the .44 Russian, which gave rise to the .44 Special. That .44 Special is comparable to the .45ACP used in the 1911 Colt pistol. The .454 Casull arose from the .45 Colt (aka .45 Long Colt). Both have much milder "Cowboy Action" or "Western Action" loads, which wouldn't be inappropriate for piercing bunnies, opossums, raccoons, bobcats, foxes or coyotes. These are both the base level loads that reach 1,000 ft.pds of energy out of a rifle, the starter point which can be depended on to knock a deer down even if the animal moves or your shot is otherwise less than ideal. You can also use the .357 Magnum and its little brother the .38 Special, but they can't guarantee knockdown if your shot is less than ideal.

If you are going for straight-wall, you could get a .45-70. However, I'd suggest not. Magnificent cartridge, but it hits like either end of a bison bull. Instead, go for either of the heavy-hitter pistol cartridges listed above, and if you want a handgun you can use one of the milder loads listed above, matching it to your long gun.

If you go for a shotgun, I would strongly recommend the 12 gauge. The 20 gauge is there, it's great, incredibly close in performance to the standard 12 gauge, but it is less versatile. Also, weight of your firearm tames recoil, and the 20 gauge are generally built lighter than the 12 gauge, which means they still kick about as hard even though they are shooting less stuff out the front. There are even 20 gauge magnum loads which kick as hard as the standard 12 gauge. Conversely, there are 12 gauge loads in "managed recoil", "reduced recoil", and even plain old "skeet" loads which pack only as much wallop as the standard 20 gauge. Given that, and the fact that 12 gauge is more versatile, more widely available, and often cheaper than the smaller 20 gauge, you should definitely compare them before you make up your mind.

If you do feel that a 12 gauge pump may be what you want, then take a careful look at Maverick shotguns on the web. They are Mossberg's economy line, no bells and whistles, plastic stocks only, 12 gauge only, pump action only, but very inexpensive and good.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

one added note where I feel there is the greatest difference between 12 ans 20 ga is in the slugs 

12ga slugs are 1 ounce in most cases at 1600fps

20ga slugs are typically 1/2 or 5/8 oz going 1600fps 

so if slusg shooting is something you plan on doing form a pump gun the 20ga is milder because of the reduction of almost half the wieght , shot loads do not have as large of a differnce in weight between 12 and 20 

Mossberg does makes the Mavrick in 20ga I was looking at them last fall , I already had a Mossberg 500c 20ga for my son and liked it as a 10-11 year old boy of just about 5 foot he shots it well it also worked well for me 

500c vs Mavrick 20ga 
wood stock vs poly
top mount safety vs trigger guard safety
blued finish vs flat black 
drilled and tapped for optics vs not 

otherwise the barrels are interchangeable , choke tubes are interchangeable , stock parts are interchangeable the bolt , and most of the internals except for the trigger group are interchangeable

when I was looking at them last fall the 500c was 324.99 and the mavrick was on sale for 224.99 but was normally 249.99

well I talked my self out of it, I had bought my sons for 200 cash the winter before , figuring I would just keep my eye out for used ones after hunting season , sure enough I saved up my cash and found a used 500c 20ga with 2 barrels the 26 inch rent rib with choke tubes and a 24 inch rifled slug barrel for 225 it even came with a case and 2 boxes of shells 

I like the top safety as it is the same as my sons , and my 500a 12ga and I hunt with slugs and like to be able to run a scope when I want to , so optics ready mounting is worth 50-60 dollars in my book as that is what it costs me to have a smith drill and tap it not to mention the weeks I am then without it.

the H&R Pardner pump in 20 ga is also worth looking at , it is a imported metric 870 parts don't all interchange the same but some do Remington owns H&R

the only reasons I see for 12 over 20 is ammo availability but there is a lot of 20 out there there days price is almost identical but not as much buck shot , or if you feel you need more shot and more power for longer range ducks or geese


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