# Breeding--am I opening up a can?



## kycn (Nov 27, 2012)

Not trying to start a thread of arguments  

Recently purchased a 3 year old Great Pyr female. Hasn't been fixed yet. I have owned multiple Pyr before and live on a 100 acre farm. I know there are going to be some strong opinions here on breeding dogs. I personally believe working dogs are in a different category than pets and I feel the responsible thing is to offer to take the dogs back if the person ever needs to rehome. That said, the question:

What should I breed her with? I have heard great things about pyr/anatolian cross. What about other crosses? I guess I was thinking that direction because of "hybrid vigor". Also we live in central KY and our pyr is always so hot in the summer that I was thinking the Anatolian with the shorter hair would be a good thing. Also heard great things about some of the other LGD breeds. Things I should look for in a male? Guarding instinct as well as physical. 
Any people out there with a male near Central KY want to hook our dogs up


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Forget about hybrid vigor. Crossing two different breeds does nothing to improve the health of the puppies. For best health, start with two healthy dogs. Unless you can guarantee the performance of a pyr/anatolan crossing, stay away from mixing. Unless you know that every mix will have the same coat (long or short), the same guarding style, the same size, the same everything, you are gambling.

I don't think you should breed a certain breed until you have some experience with that breed, so either stick to pyrs, or get an Anatolan and learn how they guard, how they react to different stressers, etc. You need to know if the puppy buyers are suited to the breed you are selling.


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

I have experience with Pyrenese Anatolian crosses and they were the best dogs I've ever had. I am personally interested if you end up breeding them to Anatolians. I do believe in hybrid vigor. Our 14yr old still acts like a puppy and is the healthiest dog I've ever had.


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## kycn (Nov 27, 2012)

So still in the researching and planning stage, having a hard time finding potential mates. Anyone know of males in the central ky area?


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

forget hybrid vigor. All dogs are the same species so technically they are not even hybrids.....just cross breeds. And since the same genetic defects are seen in both, the pups have just as much chance at inheriting them. A smarter thing to do is get the hips xrayed and checked for hip and elbow problems, only breeding stock that is OFA certified good or better. Also before breeding, line up buyers for at least half of your litter. Otherwise, you may just be contributing to the LGD overpopulation problem.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

I think LGD should be bred more for working temperaments and health first before crossing just to get pups. By working I mean a dog that stays with its flock and protects it, not just a dog that is fenced in and protects the area around the livestock then tries to escape at any chance it gets. Roaming has been excused by saying its a desire to expand their territory, well that just leaves your flock open to predation. When your dogs expanding its territory 3 miles to the east and the coyotes from the west decided to pay a visit your flock is left vulnerable. These dogs where bred and working with no fences and they stayed with their flocks, that trait is being lost rapidly in most LGD's. Perhaps its time to develop a test for working temperment amongst LGDs.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

sorry....that's not correct. First off, our farming techniques are different now days. Where these dogs were developed, there was at least one human shepherd on duty. It was not all left up to the dogs. And they were never historically confined to a small patch of land....they had thousands of acres to patrol. These dogs DO roam.....and have always roamed. Part of their duty is to patrol for predators. They did it then....and they do it now. Only now there is no human on duty, there is often only one dog and there are fences. So the dog goes over the fence and checks out the surrounding area for possible predator problems.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Actually, that's exactly right.
There is a world of difference between circling a herd and taking off into the distance. Not that it matters what they did historically - if a livestock guardian dog leaves the livestock, then they are not guarding it, and are therefore useless. It's like saying "Well sure, why wouldn't the bank security guard take a walk around the park? He probably wants more banks to guard, and he was checking the park for robbers sneaking up." It doesn't fly.

Kycn, yes, you are opening a can of worms. Whether or not you crossbreed (and folks can believe what they want, those breeds are too closely related for any hybrid vigour, and share all the same health problems) what is there to differentiate your pups from all the other LGD pups out there?
I turn down an LGD pup from "great working parents" every time I go to an auction or swap meet. Starting next month, and for a couple of months after, I'll also turn one down every time I go to the feedstore.

So, great working dogs or not, once you've got the pup you want, and the owner of the sire has the pup they want - what do you do with the other 9? Why are they so spectacular that someone should even take them for free?

IF (see the big IF) the hips, elbows and hearts were tested you might be able to line up enough deposits to make it worth trying.
And notice I say deposits and not homes. Because I promise and swear on a stack of Bibles that out of every 10 people who swear up and down that they'll take one, that they'd_ love_ to take one, that they've dreamed of a dog like that forever and would be honored to take one - maybe one of them will actually show up and take a pup. Maybe.

And please, don't even think of doing this if you don't test hips, hearts and elbows. That is not a show dog thing, it's a health thing - working dogs break down, and then they can't work, and there are few sorrier sights. Mind doesn't matter then - if you put Mario Andretti into my sorry, lemon, he's not winning any races, and if you breed dogs with all the heart in the world, but bad heart valves, they can't work. It is your responsibility to give that good working spirit a vehicle that can do the job and not let them down.


I'm not trying to be mean or harsh, I'm just trying to give it to you straight. It breaks my heart to see folks trying so hard to give pups away from good working dogs. But still, I won't even take them for free. I've lived with a large dog with hip dysplasia, seen his pain, seen his heart break when he couldn't work, paid his vet bills - not again.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Otter pretty much nailed it. What makes your dog so fantastic that I would want a puppy from her? My 12 year old border collie has arthritis in one hip from an accident, I'd sure hate to see him with two bad hips. I don't let him herd anymore, not even chickens or ducks. Not x-raying for hips (and/or knees and/or elbows, whatever is a problem in the breed) sets you out as a 'backyard breeder' or 'small puppy mill'. A reputable breeder would never breed a dog without examining the pedigree and testing for any possible health problems.

If you want a good stud, contact the breed registry and ask for help. Those who breed for show probably know who breeds for work. Very often, those are the same lines.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Why do you want to breed your *****? Are you looking for a specific young dog, looking to breed for profit or you enjoy the idea of a litter of pups? 

If you're looking for something specific, it's likely easier to shop until you find a pup that suits your needs. If you're looking for profit, there is very little after health checks, puppy shots, etc. 

Breeding any livestock takes a lot of time and hard work to develop a reputation within the industry and you truly need to be passionate and dedicated.


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2014)

BarbadosSheep said:


> forget hybrid vigor. All dogs are the same species so technically they are not even hybrids.....just cross breeds.


I can't count how many times I have said the same. A hybrid is a cross between two different species, not between two breeds within the same species. That is a cross breed. Not trying to ruffle any feathers, just rarely come across someone that agrees.


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## kycn (Nov 27, 2012)

Ok, so that may scientifically be correct, but I don't think that changes what I was saying. People have been breeding different breeds for better traits for years, that's how new breeds come into existence.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Do an online search for GP breeders. You will probably be able to find a list of breeders in Kentucky. There aren&#8217;t too many who breed crosses, but you may be able to find someone who breeds pure GP and would be able to find a stud that balances your ***** well.

That being said, GP often have large litters, so you&#8217;d want to discuss finding homes with the breeder. As others have said, get deposits on puppies, not promises.


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## JLMissouri (Dec 12, 2012)

To say there is nothing to be gained is false. If done correctly you could come out with a dog that is healthier and better suited, only time and trial will determine.

To say nothing is to be gained from crossing different breeds of dogs is again not true. While my experience is with cattle I am sure it will hold true for dogs as well. A registered "Pure" dog is a highly line bred often inbred dog. If you bring in new genetics in the right way you can improve the dog. Just like black baldies in cattle. Bringing in new genetics will often help with recessive genes that cause problems in many pure bred dogs.

I see why people want a registered dog, it is easier to predict looks, temperament and ability. That's not to say a good mutt can't do the job just as well and better given the right breeding.

In my area you would have no problem finding a good home for any large dog. There isn't a glut of large dogs in Missouri, although beagle mixes are a dime a dozen.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

"hybrid vigor" does exist, but you have to breed dramatically different types to get it like a bulldog to greyhound or a cur dog to terrier. it exists because the different types of dog don't have the same health issues and even where they have similar health issues they are associated with different genes and they don't match up. for example sighthounds generally have virtually no symptoms for hip dysplasia with some breeds actually having none at all ever in the breed, crossing onto a mastiff means the pups will not have any SYMPTOMATIC hip dysplasia. when you breed similar types, because they have the same health issues, you get no net improvement of health.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

JLMissouri said:


> To say nothing is to be gained from crossing different breeds of dogs is again not true. While my experience is with cattle I am sure it will hold true for dogs as well.


No, it doesn't, and here's why;
When you breed cattle you are dealing with really large populations, and an individual really doesn't matter. If there is something wrong with a cow, you eat it. So there is no giant risk with rather intense linebreeding. if it works, great, you get highly consistent animals. If not, no biggie, you get beef. So you have huge swatches of highly linebred, constantly and heavily culled animals. At least 60% of your calf crop is culled because it goes to beef. If your numbers are consistent with most, 5-10% of your breeding stock gets culled every year, for various reasons, and replaced with younger animals.

With dogs, you don't have huge populations with intense linebreeding. And you sure as sunrise don't bring a ***** to a dog with the assumption that a minimum of 60% of the resulting pups be culled right off the bat. No, you have a far more genetically diverse population and every last person who buys a pup is going to want that pup to perform WAY more complex tasks than growing well.
So even if you consider (as you should) pups that go into homes where they are fixed as culled, they still need to be guaranteed free of genetic defects, show strong breed character and have a stable, reliable temperament - which is a lot harder to breed for than a good beef cow, and is one of the main reasons for the lesser degree of linebreeding.

So really, it's not alike at all. Anatolians and Great Pyrenees are closely related enough that breeding two random individuals of each breed together gives no hybrid vigour. And they are both prone to all the same genetic faults, which are located at the exact same points of the gene sequence for each breed. So breeding a Pyr with iffy elbows and an Anatolian with iffy elbows (elbow dysplasia is not uncommon with either breed) will give you an entire litter of pups with elbows that range from bad to worse, and no meat market to send them to, just lots of very upset people who wanted a good working dog and got one who can't run.



JLMissouri said:


> In my area you would have no problem finding a good home for any large dog. There isn't a glut of large dogs in Missouri, although beagle mixes are a dime a dozen.


What part of MO are you in? Because I'm 40 minutes south of Thayer and there's a huge glut of large dogs, and no homes for any of them.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Otter
i am going say IMO the reason you have less linebreeding in dogs is because more people are projecting human values on their dogs. the best most CONSISTANT producers of good hunting dogs i know all linebreed. i mean REALLY linebreed. they maximize the percentage of a specific dog while minimizing any one other dog in the bloodline.


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## JLMissouri (Dec 12, 2012)

I will still say there is something to be gained, so to each their own. I am in northeast MO and there is always demand for large dogs. I will travel anywhere in Missouri for a good Mastif, although I am not going to pay several hundred dollars that everyone is always asking for them. I will also not sign a paper from the Humane Society saying I cannot use my dog for work and letting them inspect my farm. 

A good dog is very valuable on a farm, but I would rather give a good mutt a home any day than buying a purebred dog. If there is a large amount of large breed dogs in your area are they asking money for them? If they are giving them away hook me up with a healthy Mastif, Pyrenees or German shepherd and I will gladly give them a good home. I have room for a couple, but only large dogs as I need them for guard duty.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Seriously? Arrange transport. No GSDs, but I know of a male Rottie, an entire litter of Australian shepherd/mystery puppies and someone who'll have some Pyr cross puppies soon.

Also 2 husky mixes, an English setter and a bunch of smaller dogs. There's no shortage of dogs around here, big or small.


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

Where I live there is no shortage of large breed Mystery dogs. We have a volunteer shelter in town that is full. You could bring a stock trailer and fill it up if you wanted. She has adds in the local paper each week for dogs needing homes. I know everybody likes puppies, but then they become dogs. I would not breed anything, just to be breeding. I would only breed with a specific purpose, once both parents are well proven LGD's. Not just that they are good physical specimens, but they must also have the brain and drive to go with it. 
I do see breeding dogs much different than say a cow or pig etc. There is an outlet for less than perfect food animals. There is no outlet for less than perfect dogs, as our culture does not view them as food sources like some other cultures do.


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## JLMissouri (Dec 12, 2012)

Yeah there are plenty of medium size dogs, but you will not find large dogs often. Last Mastiff I gladly drove 150 miles to get, and I would do it again in a heartbeat for the right dog. I will look into dogs next time I am in northern Arkansas, but I bet they charge $150 for their "adoption" fee, and It would be hard to find a large dog that isn't mixed with a small or medium sized dog. If they are actually giving them away I will pick up some. I will not fill a stock trailer, but I might get a truck load. Seriously, my sister lives in Arkansas, if you have a dog I am interested in I will give it a home and travel down there to pick it up.

Otter, Australian Shepherds are small dogs to me, I wouldn't consider them a large dog at all. I would be interested in a good rottweiler though, or any combination of rottweiler, Mastif, German or Anatolian shepherd and maybe great Pyrenees. 

I am picky though, I need a working dog. It must look good and be healthy and have the right temperament. I also strongly prefer an adult dog that isn't a senior, but I would consider a puppy. I don't want a goofy looking or sick dog, sorry but I need a work dog.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Just a few of the dogs I have seen up for grabs this week. Some of them might be a little small for you, but I've seen plenty of Aussies and their crosses who weighed 70lbs or more - like the one sleeping on the kid's bed right this moment.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

If you want a puppy
Purebred Neo, they say they want 400









These are free, along with 2 litters of Pyr/Anatolian crosses and a 7 month old Mastiff/Dane that I don't have a picture of

















These are mastiff crosses.

















Dogs are plentiful, no need to breed any that aren't exceptional. And if anyone is looking for one, I always know of tons that need homes. Every shape and size. Always.
Get in touch with me about any of these pics and I'll put you in touch with the owners - these are all dogs publicly advertised for adoption.


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## JLMissouri (Dec 12, 2012)

Otter I sent you a PM. I cannot find a dog like the Rottweiler you have pictured up here. If they end up in the pound they always seem to get a home before I visit. The Pyrenees Anatolian crosses are for sale up here, nobody gives them away. If we can work it out somebody will get a home on my farm.


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