# Tree Question



## chicamarun (Dec 26, 2006)

We have a gorgeous LARGE tree. My extension agent couldn't tell me what it was.... I won't post a picture until it has leaves since that can help with identifying it..

BUT - is there a way to tell the approximate age of the tree without cutting it down? Reason I am asking is we are looking at having farm tours on our farm. I thought it would be fun to put a sign up stating the approximate age of the tree and what was happening that many years ago. I saw this on another farm and liked the idea  It's right on our "walking path" to the back part of the farm which most will be taking and I am working on making this place educational as well as fun.

Thanks


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## Sand Flat Bob (Feb 1, 2007)

chicamarun said:


> We have a gorgeous LARGE tree. My extension agent couldn't tell me what it was.... I won't post a picture until it has leaves since that can help with identifying it..
> 
> BUT - is there a way to tell the approximate age of the tree without cutting it down? Reason I am asking is we are looking at having farm tours on our farm. I thought it would be fun to put a sign up stating the approximate age of the tree and what was happening that many years ago. I saw this on another farm and liked the idea  It's right on our "walking path" to the back part of the farm which most will be taking and I am working on making this place educational as well as fun.
> 
> Thanks


A professional arborist can take a small core and can tell you how old the tree is, from a ring count.

Bob


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

it would be very difficult to accurately gauge the age of a tree without some kind of ring sample. growth rates can be very different for similar species of tree from climate to climate. nutrition in the soil, available sunlight, and weather conditions all come into play. the tree may have had a good year, or several, and then may have had several bad years. some folks may generally be able to estimate the age of a tree from it's size, but on a very old tree, that estimate could be off by 50 or 100 years. for example, i have seen 10 inch black locust trees with 15-20 rings and i have seen them with 20-40 rings.

a drill sample could be taken. a hollow bit is used to extract a core sample of the tree to it's center. that is often used by climatologists to get a sample of growth rings which lends info to weather conditions over the life of a tree. i doubt that is really an option. 

tell us more about the tree and your location.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

bob...i guess i type slow, lol.


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## woodspirit (Aug 3, 2005)

dendrology


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## DianeWV (Feb 1, 2007)

Hi Chicamarun-like the others have said, the way to determine the age of your tree is by using an increment borer (simple handheld auger with hollow tube). In our state we have local service foresters through the state forestry division, that should have this device on hand. In our county, they would come out at no cost. Professional foresters would be another avenue. If the core sample removed is handled gently, you could use it later to show it for educational purposes. Good Luck with your farm tours and sounn Take care!


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## chicamarun (Dec 26, 2006)

Thank you! I am in the northern virginia area - and I'll be contacting my extension agent to get the person's name who can do this for us. 

I get comments all the time on this tree - and our dogwoods. We have a 2 story 30+ year old dogwood by our porch, it's gorgeous and you just don't see them this large and full anymore as so many people now go with "dwarf" sizes. The tree closed the sale of this place for me 

When the weather gets a little better I'll take a picture of the tree in question because it is amazing (if I do say so myself).

I appreciate the help starting me off in the right direction!


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

is it a species of oak? has it produced any acorns? 

does it bud out yellow/green in the early spring and keep yellow leaves late into the autumn? is it a poplar? 

does it have flakey bark or does it have chunky bark?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

If you had a pic of the trunk and some new branches any arborist worth their reputation could identify your tree. Leaves don't make or break identification.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

While you have him, talk to your extension agent about protecting that nice American Dogwood from the disease that is affecting them. When I was a younger man, it was not unusual to see large dogwoods. I even had a deer stand in one once. Now they are dying or stunted. Such a shame.


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## hillsidedigger (Sep 19, 2006)

Without even seeing the tree, I would guess that it is an 'elm' which can get large and shapely and often fool those trying to identify them.


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## woodspirit (Aug 3, 2005)

Love to see the pic or hear more. 
Dogwoods aren't dying per se, however different land use practices and such can harm any large tree. Dogwoods will not last long if they get the bark or trunk damaged from lawn mowers etc
They grow naturally in ares of shade or semi-shade along creeks and streams. These same areas also are conducive to disease problems like powdery mildew etc because of the cool wet conditions. Dogwoods have fewer disease problems in full sun but lose water fast from the leaves in full sun. Catch-22. Don't water the leaves of dogwoods or they will die rather quickly. All large trees that have the soils compacted over the roots or sustain damage from cars or equipment on the Root zone can die inside a week. Give them room. Anthracnose can be a major problem for dogwoods in some areas. Insects and even bees can transmit it as well as pruners and tools. Damage one tree badly enough and you have a vector for insect and disease problems that can affect others in a dominoe fashion. Give them space and enjoy. Sorry bout the thread drift.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

They have only been dying for the last 20 years or so.
http://www.bbg.org/gar2/pestalerts/diseases/1996fa_dogwoods.html
Another nice disease brought to us from cute (non-native) onamentals.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

oh come on and post a picture of it.get a close up of the bark also.we ned and like a good challenge.how large is this tree??? if you love this tree dont bore it.it gives a place for disese to enter.also if the tree bore has been used before it can pass on disease if it was used on a tree that had somehting.antoher word of caution..put your path far from this tree...people walkigna round the base of trees causes soil compaction and it will kill the tree.it smothers it to death....and it is ireversable also.it like letting cattle tromp around the base.it is a serious no no in the timber world...and for trees you love.sorry to be a worry wart....just thgouht you might like to know.


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

a good simple rule for distance of the path from the trunk of the tree is just past the "drip line" or the outer edge of the widest branch tip..ie. where the tree drips off the outer leaves like an umbrella..the thought is that is the furtherest extent of the feeder roots


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## woodspirit (Aug 3, 2005)

vicker said:


> They have only been dying for the last 20 years or so.
> http://www.bbg.org/gar2/pestalerts/diseases/1996fa_dogwoods.html
> Another nice disease brought to us from cute (non-native) onamentals.


That was written in !996. Dogwoods and all other varieties of trees have been dying since the very first tree appeared. Don't let it worry you though. he same has been happening to bi-pedal hominids too. The Hemlock adelgid is going to kill off all the hemlocks The native beech's have been dying for the last thirty years and the state decided to cut most of them from their forests. Sugar Maples are not only blighted but now have a new introduced insect from the orient that is going to make them extinct. Ashes are all dying. Dogwoods are all dying. Norways are affected by tar spot and will probably die off. White birches are all dying of disease....actually its an insect problem but alas the birches can't read. Viburnums are going to disappear because of the Viburnum beetle. Lawns are too because of japanese beetles and European chaeffers, etc etc etc ad infinitum, and so on and so forth till we puke. People have been screaming the same song about every living thing out there. I am very familiar with diseases and insects because it was my carreer for a few decades. Get yourself a tall one and sit in the shade of a tree and just let your cares melt away. When you Wake up hungover, you'll discover the tree is still there and nothing happened to the rest of them while you were away. Now however, the sky falling is entirely a different matter. Keep looking up. This is simply a case of a little knowledge being very dangerous. Something I'm learning first hand very recently, is not believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. BTW there are much worse things happening to Dogwoods than Anthracnose at present but I'd rather not go into that right now.


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## chicamarun (Dec 26, 2006)

Ok - here is a link to the album with the pictures of the tree and also pictures of some of the Dogwood we have.


<table style="width:194px;"><tr><td align="center" style="height:194px;background:url(http://picasaweb.google.com/f/img/transparent_album_background.gif) no-repeat left"><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/saccomail/TreePictures"><img src="http://lh4.google.com/image/saccomail/Rh5t04D7DaE/AAAAAAAAARk/QQlv1dcZi1k/s160-c/TreePictures.jpg" width="160" height="160" style="margin:1px 0 0 4px;"></a></td></tr><tr><td style="text-align:center;font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px"><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/saccomail/TreePictures" style="color:#4D4D4D;font-weight:bold;text-decoration:none;">Tree Pictures</a></td></tr></table>


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

my first guess would be that the big tree is an ash tree.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

looking at the pic's my first guess is a maple..the bark jsut looks like a old maple tree.i would also say it is a silver maple.but i dont know all the types of maple real well.i cant wait for the leaves to come out.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

elkhound said:


> looking at the pic's my first guess is a maple..the bark jsut looks like a old maple tree.i would also say it is a silver maple.but i dont know all the types of maple real well.i cant wait for the leaves to come out.



when i saw a few spots of flakey bark, i was thinking maple as well. it just looks like the flakes are not as flakey as i would think an old maple would be. i wonder if norway maples ever flake when they get big? beyond that, i suggested ash as it also has tighter spots of bark and the shape looks like an ash. definately a good puzzle tree, lol.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

the more i look at it, the more i think elkhound has it. i am thinking sugar, black or red maple.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

meloc...not sure if i ever seen a norway maple.if it was a sugar maple wouldnt it be a bit more of the classic blackened look to it???my second choice would be slippery elm...but i have never seen a slippery elm that big.

not to pick on your tree chicamarun..but it is a sick tree.that crotch is in bad shape...from the pictures anyway.it looks to be rotten and the big limb up high seems to be roten also.so enjoy your tree while you have it.a heavy wet snow could split this tree.this open center is the way alot of people and books recommend pruning and growing fruit trees.but as they age they seem to get sick in the crotch area.i think it is from water holding there and then cold coming and causeing frost cracks and things like this.plus hevy snow pulls the tree apart and wind...when the wind blows it puts all that force down the tree into the trunk area and if there is a defect at all it gives a crack for more water to go down into it and then it gets cold and frost cracks it more.its a cycle that will kill a tree .sorry to give you the bad news.....but i could be wrong and it live a long time.it takes a long time for a tree to die for the most part.


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## chicamarun (Dec 26, 2006)

I know it's not in the best condition. The guy who used to do the "handy work" around here didn't do anything handy at all - they didn't try and help any of the outside plants.... poison ivy was and still is rampant in some spots. Pruning wasn't in their vocabulary - we have a walnut tree which has a branch growing back into it - but it's too large to prune out anytime soon.

Will looking at the leaves help? I know we have a lot of maples around here - but none look like this one at all. But then again I don't know a bunch of different varieties.


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## poppycat (Jan 10, 2007)

I'd say Norway maple judging by the roots and general shape mostly. Does it turn bright yellow all over in the fall? If you had a pic of the leaves I could tell you for sure.


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## woodspirit (Aug 3, 2005)

Odd buds and limbs on this tree. The little one near the deck and house is a dogwood for sure. 
At first glance the big tree looks like a black willow. Definitely not sugar maple. Possibly silver judging from the bark, but the close ups of the leaf buds and branches are odd. Potential serious problems though are the fact that it is in the pasture. Not good at all. The three main limbs are going to be a problem in the future. Sooner than later I would guess. There is alot of rot in those limbs. The upper part of the tree has had some damage in the past with broken branches. Also saw some older damage to main limbs. The smaller limbs and the way the buds occur on them and the color of new wood, seem to resemble a....Mulberry.Hows that for going out on a limb. I know I will be wrong, but thats what the young branches look like to me. And the fact that it looks like it breaks easily. Love to see any leaves as they appear.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

maple tree identification site

http://www.massmaple.org/treeID.html


i have two very, very large silver maples, and much like the description in the above linked site, they have very shaggy looking bark. it seems to nearly peel right off the tree.

i also have many very large red maples. the site i linked decribes them as having "scaley plates" of bark. i guess that describes what i see on them. it is not as shaggy looking as silver maple bark.

the black and sugar maples trees are dscribed in the linked site as having plates of bark that remain attached on one side. i definately have 4 sugar maples of tapping size. i had a hard time identifying them via bark analysis. they seem very similar to my eye. i had to wait for leaves and seeds. forget twig ID for maples...unless you are a pro, you will lose your mind trying that, lol.

since i have never found a black maple on the property, and since this one looks a bit different than my sugar maples and red maples, i think it may be a black, even though they are not known to be common in your area. i think sugar maple is also a possibility. i looked at my neighbor's norway maples again, and they seem to keep their tight bark and don't seem to make scales or plates.

look at the site i linked and save it to your favorites. when the leaves come out, refer to the site to ID them. 

when i was ID-ing maples to tap, i had a hard time with the young ones. the bark all seems to look alike when they are young. the next issue was being able to tell norway leaves from sugar maple leaves. they are very similar. when that happens, you need to ID the seeds. norway seeds form in pairs that resemble a wide V. sugar maple seeds form in pairs that resemble a horseshoe shape, or a U.


good luck!


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

woodspirit said:


> That was written in !996. Dogwoods and all other varieties of trees have been dying since the very first tree appeared. Don't let it worry you though. he same has been happening to bi-pedal hominids too. The Hemlock adelgid is going to kill off all the hemlocks The native beech's have been dying for the last thirty years and the state decided to cut most of them from their forests. Sugar Maples are not only blighted but now have a new introduced insect from the orient that is going to make them extinct. Ashes are all dying. Dogwoods are all dying. Norways are affected by tar spot and will probably die off. White birches are all dying of disease....actually its an insect problem but alas the birches can't read. Viburnums are going to disappear because of the Viburnum beetle. Lawns are too because of japanese beetles and European chaeffers, etc etc etc ad infinitum, and so on and so forth till we puke. People have been screaming the same song about every living thing out there. I am very familiar with diseases and insects because it was my carreer for a few decades. Get yourself a tall one and sit in the shade of a tree and just let your cares melt away. When you Wake up hungover, you'll discover the tree is still there and nothing happened to the rest of them while you were away. Now however, the sky falling is entirely a different matter. Keep looking up. This is simply a case of a little knowledge being very dangerous. Something I'm learning first hand very recently, is not believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. BTW there are much worse things happening to Dogwoods than Anthracnose at present but I'd rather not go into that right now.


Sorry, I just posted the first link I found after googling "American Dogwood". I thought someone might do their own research. Here is the first one I found after googling "Dogwood anthracnose". It was writen last month. The lady has a nice dogwood that she likes. I was just trying to help. I can tell by the pictures that it has anthracnose. Most native dogwoods now do. See all the new growth? Makes for lots of flowers but a weak tree. Carry on.
http://plantclinic.cornell.edu/FactSheets/dogwoodanthracnose/dogwood anthracnose.htm


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## poppycat (Jan 10, 2007)

Still standing by Norway Maple. Check out this bark pic from Virginia Tech
www.cnr.vt.edu/DENDRO/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=6 
The bark gets more furrowed as they get older


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## chicamarun (Dec 26, 2006)

Well the tree isn't in the pasture at all - it's away from it actually the building was part of a run but we took down the fence and closed in that shed and used it as a chicken coop.

I'll have leaf pictures when they come out - I thought I had some but don't.

Sad thing happened though - a huge top branch came down late last night in the 60+ mph wind gusts. A few smaller branches came off too. We can't get out to clear it out and assess the damage at this time since the wind is still pretty bad - it'll have to wait until tomorrow - but the sound of it snapping woke me up 

I'm not seeing it as a maple - I know maple leaves and these I remember as being different and we have quite a few around here.

I did know the 2 story tree was a dogwood - I absolutely love the tree - especially when it's in bloom.


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## chris30523 (Jun 11, 2005)

Looks alot like a big mulberry that was behind our house.Even split in the same place.Leaves would be a big help..


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Judging from the bark, I'd say silver Maple. If it is, the classic maple shaped leaves will have a silver cast to the underside and the leaf isn't as "full" as a Sugar Maple. Look up Silver Maple in your tree book.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Not a maple, maples have opposite buds. These definitely alternate. Not mulberry, trunk bark is wrong. I'm going to say elm because the trunk and shape are very much like the elms around here. Elm would be right for being in a pasture too. Keep us posted as the leaves develop but I'm willing to bet they are single oval leaves with serrated (like a sleak knife) edges with one little tooth in between each big tooth and the bottom part of the leaf won't be even across the leaf stem, one side higher than the other.

Slippery Elm
http://www.cnr.vt.edu/DENDRO/DENDROLOGY/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=42


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