# Anybody make money raising feeder rodents/bugs?



## Betho (Dec 27, 2006)

Just curious... I've always wondered if there's any money in it. I think I read on here about a lady whose best cash "crop" was feeder mice she raised in her barn. I know there's also different kinds of bugs and whatnot that pet stores sell as feed... anyone raise them for sales? Besides worms of course, I know about composting worms


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## Standupguy (May 27, 2007)

Yes....There is $$$ in raising rodents...Pet shops...zoos...Reptile Hobbyist all are in need...I have a friend who has a Zoo account and numerous pet shops account and make a killing....Lab mice is another possibility but lots more regulations...The only downfall I notice is the ammonia smell...its there even when you clean the cages...google feeder rodents at look at the competition...No USDA checks required for mice and rats...

Ive raised feeders for my own reptiles and too trade local pet shops for supplies..pretty easy... Noah


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## daytrader (May 8, 2005)

There are great rodent breeding set ups available. I never raised them. I have a freind that dose push 5k mice out a month at .70 each. Not bad for a guy on SSI with brain damage.

When we had our pet store we purchased from feeder banks. There is money in mice and rats. There is also money in lab rabbits and rats.

Just the feeder market is more profitable and easier to keep under the table.


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## daytrader (May 8, 2005)

There are great rodent breeding set ups available. I never raised them. I have a freind that dose push 5k mice out a month at .70 each. Not bad for a guy on SSI with brain damage.

When we had our pet store we purchased from feeder banks. There is money in mice and rats. There is also money in lab rabbits and rats.

Just the feeder market is more profitable and easier to keep under the table.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2007)

I used to raise them for the wholesale market. Yes there's good money in them but my RA got really bad and I couldn't keep up. I tried hired help and couldn't keep anyone around long enough.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Yes, Freedom breeder has great systems.


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## daytrader (May 8, 2005)

kasilofhome said:


> Yes, Freedom breeder has great systems.


This is a very high price system. You can set it up MUCH cheaper if you can work with wood and plastic pans.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

At one of the zoos where I worked they had a great "rat room" set up. Floor to ceiling racks where dishpans could slide in. They fit closely enough together to prevent escape. They were divided into ages/sizes with permanent breeder areas. We fed lots of animals with the rats, from pinks on up to adults... not a bad hobby/job if you could get in touch with the folks that wanted them.


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## mwhit (Jun 8, 2006)

I remember my aunt worked at a huge cricket farm in Mississippi once years ago. I have no idea if they would smell like rodents do...

Michelle


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## wogglebug (May 22, 2004)

If you really do it, it's a fairly easy way to qualify as a farm - whoops, agricultural enterprise - even if you're just doing it in your garage. You can get the tax write-offs and exemptions pretty easily .


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## Betho (Dec 27, 2006)

Interesting thread. I'll have to remember this when I get a barn someday


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## gunsmithgirl (Sep 28, 2003)

My brother in law sells crickets & fruit flys. He just orders 10,000 in bulk & resells at $1.00 a dozen, which is still cheaper than the closest pet store.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I've been doing it for about 5 years now. I'm rebuilding after the move now~ but here are some pics of my racks I took before the move~ I built the wooden ones~ each tub holds 1.5 (one male to five females) rats. The metal one I purchased~ it was expensive and is hard to load the feed hoppers~ wish I had just built a mouse rack too

















with that set up I ran 20 colonies of rats and up to 35 colonies of mice. I use about 100# of feed a week~ so about $40-$50 and two bales of pine~ about $8 worth. I produce enough rodents to feed my snakes.....at the largest point somewhere around 100 snakes plus neonates (babies) and still sell enough to cover my weekly feed/litter bills with a little pocket change left. I sell the baby snakes too.

I try to sell the feeders live when I can find a buyer~ it's easier for me. But if I can't find a buyer I Euthanize with CO2, vaccuum seal and freeze to sell later when I find a customer









I'm hoping to expand my facility this year as I've now got a dedicated building for them~ and make a bit moe money. I'm also hoping I can claim them and the profit as "farming" rather than "pet feed" as I did in CA.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

wogglebug said:


> If you really do it, it's a fairly easy way to qualify as a farm - whoops, agricultural enterprise - even if you're just doing it in your garage. You can get the tax write-offs and exemptions pretty easily .


so I won't have to apply and be a "Business" again? I was "The Red Dragons Den" in California for tax purposes and had to file my taxes quarterly. I disolved the business last June because I was prepping for the move and had sold off my rodents and was not selling any more snakes. I'm kind of hoping not to have to be a "Business" again but rather to run the rodents and the snakes as "farming" here in AL. I plan to talk with a CPA when I file this year (gonna be a nightmare) but I'd kind of like an idea what I should be trying to ask them to do for me.

I have not made any sales since May of 2007 and don't expect to make any till Feb or March of 08~ but the rats are definately working for me (got at least 20 litters down right now) so I will be ready to start selling again soon.


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## daytrader (May 8, 2005)

Cheryl aka JM said:


> so I won't have to apply and be a "Business" again? I was "The Red Dragons Den" in California for tax purposes and had to file my taxes quarterly. I disolved the business last June because I was prepping for the move and had sold off my rodents and was not selling any more snakes. I'm kind of hoping not to have to be a "Business" again but rather to run the rodents and the snakes as "farming" here in AL. I plan to talk with a CPA when I file this year (gonna be a nightmare) but I'd kind of like an idea what I should be trying to ask them to do for me.
> 
> I have not made any sales since May of 2007 and don't expect to make any till Feb or March of 08~ but the rats are definately working for me (got at least 20 litters down right now) so I will be ready to start selling again soon.


Do you know Larry in Des Moines Iowa?


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Larry Suttles? I'm not sure where Larry lives~ midewest *I think* ~ but I know a Larry Suttles who breeds rats~ he has some nice ones. The Larry I know breeds for feed as well as form and color like I do. I did not purchase my new stock from Larry~ too far away~ but the gentleman I bought my new stock from has so I do have some of Larry's hairless bloodline in the lines I'm working with right now. Unfortunately~ I think hairless rats are about us ugly as a rat can get......so I'll probably be trying to breed it OUT of my lines! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! LOL! I got lucky and found some blue rats and some silky mice yesterday so now I'll close the colonies (no new rodents in) and start breeding my own "line" from the stock I have.


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## daytrader (May 8, 2005)

Cheryl aka JM said:


> Larry Suttles? I'm not sure where Larry lives~ midewest *I think* ~ but I know a Larry Suttles who breeds rats~ he has some nice ones. The Larry I know breeds for feed as well as form and color like I do. I did not purchase my new stock from Larry~ too far away~ but the gentleman I bought my new stock from has so I do have some of Larry's hairless bloodline in the lines I'm working with right now. Unfortunately~ I think hairless rats are about us ugly as a rat can get......so I'll probably be trying to breed it OUT of my lines! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! LOL! I got lucky and found some blue rats and some silky mice yesterday so now I'll close the colonies (no new rodents in) and start breeding my own "line" from the stock I have.


Lets just say Larry has a need for feeders. More then ANYONE else.

If Larry can not get it NO ONE can get it. That Larry.

There is money to be made in breeding feeders and research rodents.

Not my thing.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Interesting. Wonder if that could be made into a business in Wichita, KS?


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## daytrader (May 8, 2005)

TedH71 said:


> Interesting. Wonder if that could be made into a business in Wichita, KS?


You can do it anywere. I would suggest air conditioning.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Yeah~ you have to watch the temps. All those little warm bodies produce a ton of heat themselves. I've never had a problem in winter keeping them warm enough.....but I was living in So Cal so no real issue there. But in the summer if they get much about 85F the stop breeding~ if they get above 90F they start losing hair~ if they get above 95F they start dying. AC units are a problem because the ammonia gets in the coils and ruins them~ and then there is the constant "rat dust"~ it gets into everything. I ran an AC in CA~ but I'm hoping here in AL to get away with fans. If you build your racks with the tubs far enough apart to allow good air flow you can run a couple good BIG fans across the racks and out a window. The constant air flow keeps them cooler and keeps the flies from having an easy time lighting in the tubs. You wind up with a lot of litter and rat dust flying~ so don't aim at a nieghbors house! And blow your fans out with a leaf blower every week when you clean.


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## Lorax_Of_Gilead (Mar 12, 2007)

There are all sorts of feeder insects you can raise as well that don't really require too much time/effort, and you can feed them to your own animals, or use as fishing bait. Right now a lot of people are raising species of tropical roaches to feed to their reptile pets instead of crickets, and a lot of people keep roaches as pets too.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Yes, Freedom was $ but met our needs and did pay for themself. 
There really is money in it but it was work too.

customers that you might not think about.
Rapter places. (lots of hurt eagles, owls ect up in AK) Great reg money flow

Would you believe Labs that test for red tides (shell fish) And they pay BIG BUCKS
(but that is really hard work-request for 5,000 female same age (down to the day and same weight )
It was good but it is work to have a clean set up. For us having a metal set up no wood reduced the chance of illness, odor, and was easier to maintain.


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## tamatik (Jan 3, 2006)

yep..That was my post. The young girl is in Terrace BC and she raises chickens ,quail, horses and mice. I think her website is [email protected] or yahoo.com...not sure. She told me she gets $1 a mouse at the pet store..Thats pretty good. I don,t imagine they eat much.


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## Reauxman (Sep 14, 2002)

I raise mice for fun. I actually like to play wit the colors, so most of what I have is fancy. I'm going to be trying to obtain a high producing strain to toy with. 

I keep anywhere from 2-6 tubs of a male and 3-6 females. I had a lot of variety, but lost a lot too. I have black satins now, but just two females. 

Perhaps we should swap some mice around. I've shipped live mice befre. Although it isn't "legal", with priority mail they get there within a few days. I've never had higher than a 50% loss on shipped mice. I just culled out my bins(I give mine away to the pet shop or just toss them, sometimes at birth, sometimes when they are grown), so I'm down to nothing really. I have two bins of a male and three females. 

Now that I think of it, today is a good day to go around looking for some more blood. 

I've also done mealworms. They are good, but I hate getting them out. The sheds make it impossible to sift them.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Reauxman said:


> I've also done mealworms. They are good, but I hate getting them out. The sheds make it impossible to sift them.


What about using air flow like they do to separate grain from chaff?


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

This is the message I got from a person who is in charge of animal nutrition at a zoo:

"We use a large number of rats and mice every month. I'm talking 100's of each. We have tried to use local vendors before on purchasing mice and rats but most people had a hard time keeping up with the orders. Then we would call to place an order and they would be out of business. I can tell you that you would have plenty of business from pet stores and rehab people who work with The fish and game dept. I have no problem purchasing from local vendors, Actually at this point in time some of the large rodent companies are completely out of large rats.

As for insects We use crickets, mealworms, wax worms and giant meal worms. We use about 30,000 crickets a week, different sizes from pinheads to adults.

We also go thru around 100,000 mealworms a week 3,250 wax worms and 2,000 giant mealworms.

Raising rodents or insects either one is a good business if you can keep up and be competitive with the competition.
I would suggest one or the other either rodents or insects, I wouldn't do both that is quite the undertaking."

2nd message is from a raptor center:

"I go through about 600 jumbo mice and 50 large rat per month here at my center alone. I would get in touch with other people or companies that breed rats and mice. You need knowledge in trays and racks, cleaning, feeding, euthanasia, supplies, breeding cycles etc. I rehab and train raptors so I am not someone who you would get this information from. Try your local pet stores that sell mice and rats and they may be of help. I hope that you are able to get this started, it would be nice to have someone local to get a food supply from."

I'm considering buying a mice rack and starting from there. Was wondering where to buy a CO2 machine and a vaccum packing machine. Probably will start with bugs first.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Reauxman~ be very careful about bringing in "new blood"~ all mice/rats have "myco" (an upper respiratory disease) most "healthy" rodents are immune to the strain they carry which is why they are healthy~ but if you combine two "healthy" rodents with different strains of myco.......you'll have an outbreak. I lost a lot of rodents to that a few years back. Now that I have obtained the silky mice and the blue rats I was looking for I have "Closed" my colony and no new rodents will be coming in. I'll be doing all my breeding from production in my closed colony.

Two other points~
I don't want to lecture you~ but Please don't ship live mammals USPS~ it's cruel and illegal

It sounds like you have your male and female mice separated. Mice are colony critters~ very nasty little beasties actually. Once they have decided what their "Colony" consists of they will kill outsiders. Put a colony of mice together with one male and however many females and leave it alone. If you need more breeders in the tub bring up pups born in the tub as future breeders. You can swap rats around~ but mice are too mean and it rarely succeeds (yes~ I have heard of it succeeding~ but not often).

TedH7~ I made my CO2 chamber and put a how to up on my website~ here ya go:
http://www.thereddragonsden.com/co2.htm

The vacuum sealer is just the standard ones you buy to seal people food~ once the rats are dead......they are just food.

Good Luck!


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## Reauxman (Sep 14, 2002)

I've shipped over 15 shipments of live mice, from 200 miles to over 1000 miles with great results. 

I breed in small colonies, from 2-6 females. I like 3 females and a male. I just find they work best with the cages I use. I could easily turn 50 mice a month from a tub of 3 females before I lost my strain of albinos. 

I don't worry much with my fancy guys. If I loose them I loose them. I don't have that much work in them. It's my strain that I lost that was my big producer. 

For those looking to start, when looking for breeders, try the big chain stores. PetCo and Petsmart. The reasoning is that they will have mice from good lines, heavier producers than most pet stores. Mine came indirectly from a lab, but I'm thinking of getting some from petco. 

I don't do rats. They are just nasty. I like my mice. I've kept mice or 8 or 10 years. They aren't a real bother really, but again, I don't depend on them, I just like having them. I can feed them when I clean the cage and if I don't have time, I don't need to even check on them but every few days. They stay in my closet and don't smell at all.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

It really depends on what your looking for. If your after fancies and want to breed for color and form as I do and it sounds like Reauxman does~ then petstores are the way to go. If you want to breed for production~ than lab strains are the best bet. Swiss Websters are supposed to produce 20-25 per litter consistently. You can get those from a lab supplier (pricey) or some feeder breeders have them~ but be carefull. If you really want the production make sure your breeder has not outbred them~ it is said to ruin the line if you breed fancies into it.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Which ones would you say that breeds faster...the mice or the bugs? I think rats take a while and also mealworms. 3 months for 1 mealworm to develop and reproduce....personally I love the fancy mice..I like the colorful ones. I thought about possibly buying some from fancy mice breeders who also show theirs but a lot of them are not interested in their mice breeding babies that will be eaten from what I understood.

Also one more thing..what do you do with the litter (wood chips or whatever) after you're done cleaning the cages?


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## Reauxman (Sep 14, 2002)

I throw mine out, but I don't have a lot.

When we had a lot of cavies we used to toss it in with the other animal waste in a pile.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I threw the litter out in Ca~ I was in a residential neighborhood and could not mulch it so I bagged it and contracted for extra trash pick up. I would do about 4 of the big 33 gal bags a week in litter. Now I'm putting it in a mulch pile around back~ but I can already see the flies are going to be a problem~ I'll have to move it farther from the house than I have it now.

I don't know anything about bugs~ 
Mice and rats breed at about the same rate. Some people prefer mice~ I personally think the stink more than rats do~ and their personalties are not as friendly or intelligent as rats. To each his/her own though~ some people say the exact opposite. I breed both rats and mice because I need the mice for baby cornsnakes. I was getting $1 each for a big mouse or small rat in CA~ but my understanding is that here I will be able to get more for the rats, less for the mice. I'll still keep mice~ though I don't like them as much.

Lets see~ usually if I put a group of juveniles together I'm to the fist litters of pinks within three to four months. The first litters are smaller~ and sometimes a new momma or another cagemate kills first litters. If you keep the male in with them (with mice you should or the girls will kill him when you try to put him back) then he will re-breed the female before she is even giving birth to the litter~ she will drop new pups every three weeks. Sell day olds as soon as dropped~ pinks up to a weak~ fuzz up to two weeks (give or take)~ crawlers up to two three weeks~ weaners at three plus weeks~ adults when they get bigger (another couple weeks).

If you colony breed with the male in all the time your females will last about a year to a year and half of heavy breeding~ then cull them and sell as retired/jumbo breeder feeders. If you pull the female rats when heavy and let them raise the pups without the male she will last longer~ but you'll have more time between the litters.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

bump


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## daytrader (May 8, 2005)

The freedom line are great modes. You can build out of pipe and plastic dish bins from sams clubs great raisers.

My self I know the money that can be made. I do not do it. I do not have the time.

Just it is there.

Also, go to your local reptile dealer ans ask them if they have any pinkies. Most do not, if they do they do not have a steady supplie.

Folks with snakes, dragons and many other animals need the feed. The smaller reptiles need the small feed. The full grown mice are not in such a shortage, yet they are easy to get rid of 100-10000 in a single phone call for many folks.


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

I used to raise my own rodents, but don't have near the time since my daughter was born...I can't find a decent rodent supplier to save my life...Unfortunately, most of my snakes prefer live prey. I may have to start a small colony again in order to keep the weight on my snakes.

It has been my experience that rats work better in colonies than mice and do not stink as bad.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Have a question. How do you make the cages stay on the racks? I know it's a dumb question. I checked the M.I.C.E. website and like their set ups and the fact that they also have vaccum systems that vaccum away the stinky air and refresh the air. Pricey though. I was thinking of a PVC assembled version. How do you put together the tubs to prevent the mice from climbing out?


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2007)

TedH71 said:


> Have a question. How do you make the cages stay on the racks?


 You make tracks out of thin pieces of wood so that the tubs slide in and out like drawers. You only leave about 1/8 inch of space between the top of the tub and the bottom of the wire covered shelf.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

yep~ pretty much/ Tighter for mice~ you can have a bit of wiggle room with rats though. I built mine out of wood~ first built the trays to go over the tops of the tubs I chose.Then put in a bar for the tub to slide on~ would have been better if I had left about 3inches in front so the tub could drop at the end of the slide out~ with them all the way to the end the way I have them they don't drop out from under the water spigots and I have to reposition the spigots every time I pull the tubs to clean.

















Then fasten the trays that hold the tubs onto ~ and another 2x4 diagonally on the back for stability

















Put wheels on it~ wheels are very helpful to clean under, around, and to catch escapees (a shop vac is great at catching escapee's too) put a board across the top of every other one to hold the water resevior (agselect.com will sell you the parts you need~ variflow are very sturdy spigots)









You can make larger ones like mine out of cement mixing tubs









Or smaller ones like this one I had built originally for mice out of cat litter pans


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## ihedrick (May 15, 2005)

I've kept a small group of rats and mice; as with anything there can be money in it or you can lose money. Depends on the market and how you work it.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Is there a strain of rats that are well-known for having a high number of babies like the Swiss Webster is for mice?


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I've heard that again lab strains are the best~ but I don't have any personal exp with them or have a specific name of a strain thats been "bragged" on~ sorry.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Betho said:


> Just curious... I've always wondered if there's any money in it. I think I read on here about a lady whose best cash "crop" was feeder mice she raised in her barn. I know there's also different kinds of bugs and whatnot that pet stores sell as feed... anyone raise them for sales? Besides worms of course, I know about composting worms


Packaging as bait worms is more profitable at $2.50 per 5 dozen as opposed to $10 per pound and there is a better market. 

While sale of composters involves national marketing and sales are sporadic, bait sales have repeat customers and free word of mouth advertising and no shipping issues.

Bait sales program can also be expanded to a side market of bulk sales per pound to small scale chicken raisers in your local bait market area.


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## Beef11 (Feb 2, 2006)

What about being USDA certified so that you may sell to Zoo's? Is it hard to get the certification?


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2007)

Beef11 said:


> What about being USDA certified so that you may sell to Zoo's? Is it hard to get the certification?


 No certification required for rats and mice.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I was never asked to be USDA certified~ and until last summer I was a tax paying business registered with the State of California and the Federal Government as a Live feed producer of rodents and mice. I'm no longer registered with the State of California~ but I haven't told the feds yet that I stopped producing rodents for sale last summer. I figure I'm still going to have to pay my federal taxes for the first half of 07' come April~ and in 08' I plan to produce and sell more live prey so no point in trying to explain anything but that I didn't make much money last year and relocated.

Not sure how it will work once I start trying to call them farm livestock~ but I guess I should probably find out soon.


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## Betho (Dec 27, 2006)

Shrek said:


> Packaging as bait worms is more profitable at $2.50 per 5 dozen as opposed to $10 per pound and there is a better market.
> 
> While sale of composters involves national marketing and sales are sporadic, bait sales have repeat customers and free word of mouth advertising and no shipping issues.
> 
> Bait sales program can also be expanded to a side market of bulk sales per pound to small scale chicken raisers in your local bait market area.



OK now here's a question for you - I've got 2 bins and My wonderful DH is making me 2 more for Christmas so I can increase my "colony." 

One of the bins has big fat worms that aren't quite as prolific, and the other bin has smaller, thinner worms that breed like crazy and compost quicker, too. I got them from 2 different sources and kept the 2nd bin separate since they survived freezing conditions and so are pretty cold-hardy. I plan on looking at them more in detail very soon, but I was just thinking, would it be better to look towards the bigger worms for a bait market and the smaller worms towards a composting market? Or does it even matter?


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## greatwhiteape (Dec 3, 2012)

Raising rats for profit is an almost impossible undertaking. In my experience, its not worth the hassle if you have other opportunities available. In fact, I would recommend rabbits over rats any day of the week. You can still sell the rabbits as feeders if you like, but there are other markets for them and YOU can eat them.

I have pythons, so I raise a considerable number of rats. It is a long and arduous process in the beginning. You have to cull very heavily to get a product that acts like you want and does what you want. For instance, after years of culling, my rats no longer bite, fight, chew out of their tubs, or hoard babies. It probably took me about a dozen generations before I even thought that I might have something worth while. 

I house my rats a little differently than described above. I still build racks to house them, but I use smaller tubs and house my rats in pairs. I know that some people will claim that is not the right way to do it, but my rats breed back faster, having a litter at least every 28 days, and since I have moved from harem breeding to pair breeding my mortality rate has dropped to an almost imperceptible number under 1%. 

Also, I keep breeding stock from litters of 12. I believe that 12 is really the optimal number of pups that one mother can raise in a system where she is bred back immediately (male and female are house together at all times). One rack, with six tubs, has a goal of producing 72 babies per month. 

The only real expense in breeding rats besides your time (and electric because they should really be heated in the winter and cooled in the summer AND well ventilated at ALL times) is the feed and the bedding.

Feed is a weird. You would think, oh, their rats, they can eat anything. Not true. Like every other factory farmed animal they have special dietary needs that they will produce best under. Rats should be fed a prepared laboratory block and nothing else. Mazuri (made by Purina and carried by some Tractor Supply stores), Harlan Teklad, Zeigler, Kent, and a few other companies make them. I have also used Doggy Bag dogfood from Tractor Supply with success and I know people that have used pig feed with success, but the pellets on pig feed are so small that they often go through the wire hopper onto the bedding below. I always though that it would be nice if someone could produce a cubed food that was made from grain and soy, with no corn or fillers, and had some seeds to raise the fat content (20% protein, 10% fat) and could be had for around $15 for a 50 pound bag. If you can find something like that you could become more profitable. Lab black is usually twice that price. 

The next cost is the bedding. I use, and almost everyone uses, kiln dried, small, soft flake pine that has been screened multiple times to get the dust out. Pine in its natural form is no good for rats because of the oil in it. This is solved by kiln drying the pine before making chips out of it. The quality of the pine will make a difference in the health of your animals. You need to find a cheap source, but you do not want to skimp on quality here. I have always wondered if making your own pine chips could be a possibility. If you could make a high quality pine chip and sell the excess, you might be able to bring your pine cost to zero. Any time that the cost of something in your operation drops to zero your profitability increases substantially.

I know that I dug up an old post, but I find the top interesting.


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## greatwhiteape (Dec 3, 2012)

TedH71 said:


> Is there a strain of rats that are well-known for having a high number of babies like the Swiss Webster is for mice?


The best way to get the rats you want is to breed them yourself. They reach breeding age in 16 weeks and can breed earlier if allowed. You can produce three generations of rats every year. Within four years you have culled your animals through 12 generations of selective breeding. Its a long process, but its worth it in the end.

Litter size, temperament, feed usage, docility, low mortality rate, health, hardiness, etc are all factors that I select for.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

I had all the buyers I needed (raptor rescue centers, zoos, pet stores, etc) but all it took was a wife that didn't like the smell of ONE male mouse. They don't tell you this but mice often bite and males can't be housed together. They will literally fight to the death and from what I experienced, the males will attempt to bite off each other's family jewels so the winner lives while the loser dies. Didn't even get to the point of breeding rats. Just had to shelve it due to family objections.


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## greatwhiteape (Dec 3, 2012)

TedH71 said:


> I had all the buyers I needed (raptor rescue centers, zoos, pet stores, etc) but all it took was a wife that didn't like the smell of ONE male mouse. They don't tell you this but mice often bite and males can't be housed together. They will literally fight to the death and from what I experienced, the males will attempt to bite off each other's family jewels so the winner lives while the loser dies. Didn't even get to the point of breeding rats. Just had to shelve it due to family objections.


Rats are much easier to raise than mice and they smell LESS. 

You can't put males together fresh from breeding with rats, but if they're not coming directly from a breeding age female they can be housed with other male rats.


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## greatwhiteape (Dec 3, 2012)

I have used these racks to breed rats when I used a harem system. Four females and one male per tub was the most common arrangement, but I know people that would house them eight females to one male. This can be particularly useful if you are using a lot of pinks and pups.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

Interesting to see people on here who are interested in this kind of thing... 

I've considered breeding mice to this level before because I just love genetics and I really like mice... But I'd have to have some dedicated buyers, because I just couldn't do the CO2 thing... 

I've ended up on YouTube before, just sifting through videos with people's breeder setups. Most are reptile breeder videos, which is just fine... I just have no interest in the snakes, only the mice.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I bred mice on a small scale for about a year when I was in college. A pet store a few towns over went out of business and I bought all their 10 gallon and 20 gallon long aquariums with covers and the water bottles/etc that they used for their displays for pennies on the dollar 

I sold the mice to a small local pet store that did a lot of business with local wildlife rehabbers. Made enough at the time to cover the cost of raising the mice and to pay for my dog's food too.....

I tried Rats but they required more space and the pet store I sold to didn't really have a market for them, so wouldn't buy as many. So I sold out of the rats and added more mice :shrug:. Then when I raised rabbits a few years back, I tried selling babies as feeders and got zero interest :shrug:. 

I guess it depends on the local market.


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## Gianni (Dec 9, 2009)

greatwhiteape said:


> The next cost is the bedding. I use, and almost everyone uses, kiln dried, small, soft flake pine that has been screened multiple times to get the dust out. Pine in its natural form is no good for rats because of the oil in it. This is solved by kiln drying the pine before making chips out of it. The quality of the pine will make a difference in the health of your animals. You need to find a cheap source, but you do not want to skimp on quality here. I have always wondered if making your own pine chips could be a possibility. If you could make a high quality pine chip and sell the excess, you might be able to bring your pine cost to zero. Any time that the cost of something in your operation drops to zero your profitability increases substantially.
> 
> I know that I dug up an old post, but I find the top interesting.


 Kiln dried lumber is getting harder to find due to the costs. I maintain gas meters in MT and very few mills are running kilns preferring to run green lumber or air dry.


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## greatwhiteape (Dec 3, 2012)

Rat genetics are very interesting.

I've bred about a dozen different colors, ones with "dumbo" ears, ones with no tails, ones with curly fur, ones with no hair at all...its pretty much endless. I have even bred rats with two different color eyes!

If you like to tinker with genetics it is a very cool way to have some fun.

As far as gassing them goes it is probably the most humane way to kill them. I put a bunch of them in a plywood box I made. I throw in a handful of sunflower seeds and they start munching away. I let the CO2 fill the container slowly and they just go to sleep. After about 15 minutes the CO2 levels are high enough that they asphyxiate in their sleep. I can think of a million worse ways to go.

Then I just pack them up, vacuum seal them, and put them in the freezer for use at a later date. 

During hatchling season for my snakes I end up feeding hundreds of baby rats per week to my snakes. I try to pull the smallest and weakest off the mom. I will also pull all but the biggest male pup. I try to leave the female with at least five babies, one male and the four best females. Then I put the cull the remaining babies as feeders. This way the mother recovers faster to birth again, but she doesn't have to dry up. 

Anywho, this is cool for people that like to tinker with animals. Its a low cost hobby, you don't need much space, much time, or a lot of money. I like it.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

As far as I know, there is a still a debate about how peaceful CO2 is when it comes to killing them... I know lots of breeders say that they can hear the critters panicking and scratching to get out, or squeaking in terror, before they go. Perhaps it's a difference in how much CO2 is put into the box at a time... But sounds like lots of them don't just "go to sleep" before they die, but they actually just suffocate to death. That's what I have an issue with. I'm a softie. I have pet mice because I like them... Suffocating or panicking just doesn't sound humane at all. If you could work it out with your ratios that they all actually fell asleep before kicking the bucket, that would be awesome.

I think mouse genetics are just as cool as rat genetics. I'm just not a big rat fan. They aren't "cute" to me like mice are (and their teeth are a lot bigger!)... You can get mice in a plethora of varieties now too... I do love the silkies and the long-hairs. Dark eyed whites are high in my list of faves. You get the white fur but without the "creepy" red eyes that so many people don't like... I've never heard of heterochromia in rats, how crazy!

Genetics are also one of the big perks of rabbits and chickens for me. They produce frequently enough and at high enough numbers to keep you interested, if you're working on a project to produce a new color, or just wanting to see what pops out when you cross random types.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

And whoever said crickets dont stink hasn't smelled a tank full of them. They stink just as bad if not worse than mice in my opinion. Not sure I would like the escapees problem with any of these but that could be controlled.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Here the zoo needs around 300 rats a week and around 30 thousand mice per month. Raptor center is up and down depending on the number of birds they're rehabbing. No way I could meet any of that demand.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

30,000 mice per month?! Hooooooly!! That's like.... 167 litters being born PER DAY if your mice have 6 babies per litter. 

I would like to raise them for fun. 167 litters a day does NOT sound fun to me. It sounds like insane amounts of cleaning, and a HUGE barn of nothing but mice from wall to wall. Blech. No thanks!!

You would think though that pretty much nobody raises feeders on that scale, so they have to be buying from multiple sources... And if that's the case, a "small time" breeder, who was only getting, say, 20 litters a day, could still stand to make some good money selling feeders.

If you needed 20 litters a day, and each female was giving birth to a litter every 3 weeks, that would be 420 female mice that you would need in your breeding program. If you keep a 1.5 ratio in each colony, that's 84 bins you'd have with breeders. That's 840 babies per week that you'd need to switch from the breeder bins to grow-out bins... unless you're selling them right at weaning. 

Eek. Yeah, that's still too many mice for me!!

I am mostly interested in color and fur variations. I would have fun with the herefords, brokens, whiterumps, dutch, tri-colors, and whatnot. But hundreds of babies per day leaves the fun category and just sounds like straight work. I wouldn't mind raising enough to sell for pets and feeders, but mice are not my main passion in life, so I wouldn't want to dedicate all my time to their care.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Silverflame, I'd bet that you could sell a good many mice to zoos as pre-killed, frozen.
Then you don't need the mice all at one, you could stockpile them a bit. So long as you could guarantee a number, size and quality every specific amount of time, you'd still be good.


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## rusticfarmer (Sep 23, 2013)

My wife and I use to have a rodent breeding facility in Allentown, PA. 1,000 sf of wall to wall rodents. We could not fill the demand. We had a partner so it ended us closing. He would sell off our breeders when we were short on mice. We would probably still be doing it if we didn't have a partner. #1 important thing is get a good exhaust fan and DE-humidifier. If you can get a place under ground you will be better off. Breeders in hot states can't keep them breeding or alive if it's a hot summer.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Decided to get out of it because the wife and mother-in-law complained about the stench of the male mice. It's hard to believe how much a single male mouse smells up his living areas, lol. I actually went from 2 to as much as 60. Managed to sell some to the pet store and other places before shutting down. Was told rats were less smelly but wife had made up her mind. Also kept some litters together far too long and the brothers would end up chewing off each other's family jewels...rather nasty. Turns out the pet store would only take entire litters not singles or females only, etc.


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## rusticfarmer (Sep 23, 2013)

I could not tell you how many thousands of mice and rats we had at a time. We changed every pan every day and had the largest exhaust fan you can get for a ventilation system. It still stank so bad probably about a 7 on a scale of 10. We had 2 humidifiers going would empty (4) 5 gallon buckets from them every day. After all that you would have moist clothing from all the humidity from there breathing. Really nasty till you get use to it.


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

I have a rat colony. At times I've had over 500 rats at a time, and if I clean bins every 5 days, you wouldn't know there was a rodent around.

I like the concrete mixing bins better than the cat litter pans, so I'm getting rid my litterpan rack. I'm also cutting down my colony to one 5 bin rack of concrete tubs. With a 'grow-out' tank to hold the ones that are feeders, that should supply my own snakes.

You can make some money raising rodents, but you need to do so in a larger scale. Otherwise the stores want more than you can supply. The rodent breeders tend to come and go in cycles. There will be lots of breeders and the market gets saturated and some breeders start undercutting the prices and then people quit, then there isn't ENOUGH supply and people start breeding and then the cycle begins again.

I've done mice and hated them. Mice seem to kill babies and each other. I've also done the African Soft fur rodents, hated them too. They will almost ALWAYS kill and EAT the first litter. I do really LOVE the black-and-tan mice color, but I just want a rat in that color!

My rats were religiously culled for biting and for killing babies. I can pick up any rat, and pull babies off moms without worry of bites from rats. I have some pet rats, and OldMan rat was a colony breeder, who was simply so friendly he would jump out of his rack when I opened it and sit on my shoulder while I did the cleaning in the room. Then he'd get back in the bin, get some scratches and I'd close it up and leave. When he looked like he was about to die from old age, I 'rewarded' him by bringing him up to the pet cage to hang out with two pet females. I thought since he was at LEAST 3 years old, he'd probably be too old to breed and even die within a week or so. That was around 2-3 years ago! He's still going strong, still hanging out with one of those girls and a handful of other pet rats and still loves attention.


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## rusticfarmer (Sep 23, 2013)

I also used concrete tubs for rats but they wont work for mice if you top feed. So I used the kitty litter pans for mice and no more than 3 females per male. We never left males with pregnant females because that's when they start eating each other (when done on large scale).


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I stopped doing mice a few years back. Still do the rats. Your right about it going in cycles. Breeders get all up in arms about their customers wanting to breed their own rats...no big deal really~ you can happily sell them a group of females and a male, tell them where to buy all their supplies and how to get going and be a great guy....and four months his wife/sister/mother/neighbor..... someone will make him get rid of them~ or he'll realize himself how very much work it is for a pretty slim profit margin and then he'll thank you for your help and sell you his used equipment cheap.


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## krochetnkat (Dec 19, 2013)

Back in my school days, I made a killing breeding rats. Pet shops paid $2 a pop for pets, $1 for snacks. I was doing research on rat genetics and attempting to create a new "color". In doing so, the school supplied me with as many rats as I needed (At one point I had about 100) and as I bred them, if I didn't approve of the color or did not think they'd be beneficial, off to the pet stores I'd go. LOL Not sure if I would recommend it though. Gestation period for rats is 21 days , which is about the same as mice.


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## CathyGo (Apr 26, 2013)

SilverFlame819 said:


> As far as I know, there is a still a debate about how peaceful CO2 is when it comes to killing them... I know lots of breeders say that they can hear the critters panicking and scratching to get out, or squeaking in terror, before they go. Perhaps it's a difference in how much CO2 is put into the box at a time... But sounds like lots of them don't just "go to sleep" before they die, but they actually just suffocate to death.



That's exactly the problem. Too much gas too quickly and they suffocate. Introduced slowly and they just pass out. Too many people try and flood the box with gas to kill them quickly. If you're patient it's a very humane ending.


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