# I am the Master of My Fate/ The Captain of My Soul



## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

Sometimes the suffering and pain of this world becomes overwhelming. I just wanted everyone to know that you do have options. Assisted suicide is available and legal in the Netherlands. Options make us the Masters of our Fate and our faith makes us the Captains of our Soul. I pray you never need the option but an informed life is a fulfilled life. Joel Rosen


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Swampfox said:


> Sometimes the suffering and pain of this world becomes overwhelming. I just wanted everyone to know that you do have options. Assisted suicide is available and legal in the Netherlands. Options make us the Masters of our Fate and our faith makes us the Captains of our Soul. I pray you never need the option but an informed life is a fulfilled life. Joel Rosen


 Your level of caring is overwhelming. NOT!

It's also still illegal in the USA, so in the states the person who assists may go to jail


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

I would rather not be the captain of my fate. I do a terrible job with that. The Lord does much better. I see a dangerous and slippery slope with the advent of legalized suicide. I know quite well all the very compassionate arguments for such a thing, but the idea that this goes only as far as the choice of the person involved is not realistic. It will go further...it will extend to legal guardians, it will extend to children who haven't the maturity to understand the decision and it will eventually extend to the state and instead of being the "compassionate way out" it has been billed as, it will just be another eugenics movement.


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

I watched my father slip away. .the suffering was horrific.. and my mother and his entire congregation bowed and prayed. If it wasn't for my mother's wishes I would have handled the situation but I prayed and watched the cruelty. The most idealistic man I ever loved tortured beyond any reason. I have living wills and medical directives filed with everyone and still I'm scared of my father's fate. I and I alone control my destiny. We don't have to agree, nothing you can say phases me, it's my life. People need options and giving them one....?...it ain't no crime.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Swampfox said:


> I watched my father slip away. .the suffering was horrific.. and my mother and his entire congregation bowed and prayed. If it wasn't for my mother's wishes I would have handled the situation but I prayed and watched the cruelty. The most idealistic man I ever loved tortured beyond any reason. I have living wills and medical directives filed with everyone and still I'm scared of my father's fate. I and I alone control my destiny. We don't have to agree, nothing you can say phases me, it's my life. People need options and giving them one....?...it ain't no crime.


There is pain in this world, but I believe in eternity and whatever pain I face now, I will look back on like a splinter that had to be removed. It hurt for a second and now it's over. 

All of the stories of scenarios that make suicide look like a compassionate option still do not answer to man's ultimate propensity to use these things that are supposedly For someone's own will, against their will. It will be a genocide situation if this is the path we take.

I grow weary of the world's love affair with death lately. Live and Fight the good fight.


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

I respect your position. It's really not up for debate because it is already done and legal since 2002. They keep impeccable records. 1873 assisted deaths last year overwhelmingly people in Stage 4 cancer. If your horse broke his leg are you going to look for a miracle ? People put their loved ones thru hell because they cannot let go. I may see ya in hell johnny reb but you ain't putting me thru it on earth. No one is going to change anyone's mind here. We believe what we believe.... ain't that the beauty of this life ?


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Swampfox said:


> I respect your position. It's really not up for debate because it is already done and legal since 2002. They keep impeccable records. 1873 assisted deaths last year overwhelmingly people in Stage 4 cancer. If your horse broke his leg are you going to look for a miracle ? People put their loved ones thru hell because they cannot let go. I may see ya in hell johnny reb but you ain't putting me thru it on earth. No one is going to change anyone's mind here. We believe what we believe.... ain't that the beauty of this life ?


People are not horses. I hope human beings keep remembering that in this day and age of demeaning human life to the level of animals.


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

I disagree....just another life form on planet earth. American Pharoah the triple crown winner this year probably worth more than any human to date counting spirit, determination, and earning power per day.


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

Man is the only animal that blushes...or needs to. Mark Twain


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

Doctor assisted suicide is also legal in several states here -- Oregon was the first and I think there is now 3 or 4 others. Very strict guidelines and a person must only have a few months to live. As long as the choice is made by the patient in consultation with two doctors, I have no problem with it. And I'm a Christian. "Modern medicine" is a blessing in many ways to many people, but it also can extend a person's life and suffering beyond where I believe it should.


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

That is true, West Virginia is the other. Coal mines, black lung is horrific to die from. Too many rules in the states. Once I decide I want the barbiturates I will have them NOW. I'll resurrect a saying from the Countryside war...."rules are for fools, guidelines for those who cannot discipline themselves " JR. Like I said earlier I respect your choice and I give you no choice but to respect mine. I will see you on the other side, God willing.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Swampfox said:


> I disagree....just another life form on planet earth. American Pharoah the triple crown winner this year probably worth more than any human to date counting spirit, determination, and earning power per day.


Sorry, I am vehemently against any philosophy which puts humans at the level of animals and will fight to my dying breath against what that entails and where it comes from. That IS the idealism that leads to culling the herd, removing the "unfit" from our presence. It is arrogant in the extreme, as no one wants (or believes they deserve) the fate they feel is just for others. It is the calling card of the enemy of every value I hold dear.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Terri said:


> Your level of caring is overwhelming. NOT!
> 
> It's also still illegal in the USA, so in the states the person who assists may go to jail


Not so. It's legal in California, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington. 

I think it's a good thing. Hope I never need it but...


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

I've been gone for awhile, only Oregon and West Virginia when I left. Thanks for the update. God might argue that he created everything and frown on you making distinctions. Jesus said look at the Lillie's of the field and remarked God liked them better than Solomon.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Better than Solomon's CLOTHING, not better than Solomon, LOL! :cowboy:


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

He dressed them better than Solomon in all his glory. Lmao.....but even the devil quotes scripture. I thought sure someone would blast me with that statement. You folks are slipping....it's Monday.... LOL


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Swampfox said:


> He dressed them better than Solomon in all his glory. Lmao.....but even the devil quotes scripture. I thought sure someone would blast me with that statement. You folks are slipping....it's Monday.... LOL


Well I noted it...but like you said, even the devil quotes scripture.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

*"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."* - Genesis 1:26


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Woolieface said:


> Sorry, I am vehemently against any philosophy which puts humans at the level of animals and will fight to my dying breath against what that entails and where it comes from. That IS the idealism that leads to culling the herd, removing the "unfit" from our presence. It is arrogant in the extreme, as no one wants (or believes they deserve) the fate they feel is just for others. It is the calling card of the enemy of every value I hold dear.


So you don't believe people should have the right to end their own suffering?


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

basketti said:


> So you don't believe people should have the right to end their own suffering?


That's right.


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

I think a different viewpoint on issues is our greatest asset. Humanity must constantly fight not to fall into the rut of conformity. We must also fight not to press our individual views down anyone's throat. "Speak your truth quietly and clearly and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant, they to have their story" Desiderata. I'm not calling anyone dull or ignorant it's part of a poem.


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

Ultimately you have to do what your gut tells you is right and hope that in the end God agrees with you. Leon Panetta CIA Director


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Swampfox said:


> I think a different viewpoint on issues is our greatest asset. Humanity must constantly fight not to fall into the rut of conformity. We must also fight not to press our individual views down anyone's throat. "Speak your truth quietly and clearly and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant, they to have their story" Desiderata. I'm not calling anyone dull or ignorant it's part of a poem.


I have no problems with people having a different viewpoint. But when someone believes they have the right to tell another person what they can and can't do with their own body, then I have a problem. 
You don't want to end your own suffering? Heck, yeah...suffer away.

But don't tell me that I cant. Keep your own brand of Sharia law to yourself.


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

I Agree ! My body, my choice ! I started this thread with that option. Here's your option, it's in the Netherlands, it's very affordable, if your suffering just get there. (Disclaimer) veterans of forums know in advance where the thread will lead. A question ain't really a question when you know the answer to.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

basketti said:


> I have no problems with people having a different viewpoint. *But when someone believes they have the right to tell another person what they can and can't do with their own body, then I have a problem. *
> You don't want to end your own suffering? Heck, yeah...suffer away.
> 
> But don't tell me that I cant. Keep your own brand of Sharia law to yourself.


Ironically, that is my problem with it being legal. Consent will be based on some very shady grounds in some cases. Some will be forced.


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

I believe those issues you fear can be covered by a living will and medical directive. My legal papers were notarized when I was 49....being of sound mind and body etc. I have witnessed Roanoke Memorial Hospital act like they cannot find what you filed and run up the bills eventually stealing homes from the elderly especially those in nursing homes. I wanted to shoot some thief but which hospital executive do yo single out ? It's a wicked game and warning older folks just isn't working. Doctor says " I have one more thing to try.....putting someone in a coma for thirty days while they rape the families finances... Happens everyday.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Swampfox said:


> I believe those issues you fear can be covered by a living will and medical directive. My legal papers were notarized when I was 49....being of sound mind and body etc. I have witnessed Roanoke Memorial Hospital act like they cannot find what you filed and run up the bills eventually stealing homes from the elderly especially those in nursing homes. I wanted to shoot some thief but which hospital executive do yo single out ? It's a wicked game and warning older folks just isn't working. Doctor says " I have one more thing to try.....putting someone in a coma for thirty days while they rape the families finances... Happens everyday.


So you understand that corruption happens. You see ugly things happen in families over money. Pretty dangerous when your fate hangs on a signature on a piece of paper.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> So you understand that corruption happens. You see ugly things happen in families over money. Pretty dangerous when your fate hangs on a signature on a piece of paper.


I don't think you understand how Right to Die works. At least, not in Oregon.

No one is allowed to administer the drugs to the individual *except* the individual who has made the choice to die. Two physicians must certify that the individual is within 6 months of being terminal and there is no useful medical treatment that can be offered.

The physician's role is limited to prescribing the drugs used by the individual *him or herself* when they determine the moment is right for them. For a surprising number of these, the moment never arrives and they die a natural death anyway. For them, just the idea that they had control over the process if everything got to be too much was enough. The physician is never involved in the actual suicide.

Not that many people in Oregon avail themselves of the option, but I for one am glad it is there if I decide I want to go that route at some point.

And face it. Most people can figure out how to snuff it without need of any intervention whatsoever. Here, it's just nice that people can seek some assistance so it doesn't involve a huge mess for the person who finds the body.

There is an excellent film that gives an overview of how it works here called How to Die in Oregon. Very informative.


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

Good post...still too many rules. I decide when not two doctors.


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

Swampfox said:


> Good post...still too many rules. I decide when not two doctors.


Actually the Oregon law is almost the same as Holland's, and it covers only people living there for an extended period of time. 

http://www.patientsrightscouncil.or...s_Ministry_of_Justice_FAQ_Euthanasia_2010.pdf




> *Question 3: What are the criteria for assessing whether a doctor has acted with due care?*
> *Answer: *[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]When dealing with a patient&#8217;s request for euthanasia, doctors must observe the following due care criteria. They must: [/FONT][/FONT]​
> [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]a. be satisfied that the patient&#8217;s request is voluntary and well-considered; [/FONT][/FONT]
> [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]b. be satisfied that the patient&#8217;s suffering is unbearable and that there is no prospect of improvement; [/FONT][/FONT]
> ...


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

The OP is about Sweden. The way US laws apply in certain states as far as how drugs are administered aren't applicable there or in other places that have made euthanasia legal, though I have a feeling we'll see a federal law that allows it sooner or later. Here's what they're doing in Belgium...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/02/13/child-euthanasia-brussels/5448309/

But as far as the US goes, I recall Terri Schiavo.


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

That's the way the Netherlands law started. A physical exam, a look at your recent MRI, and tomorrow you'll be in the hands of your creator. BTW...no one says Holland or Rhodesia anymore so if you go there....you understand.


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

Woolieface said:


> *The OP is about Sweden*.


Sorry -- I didn't realize the Sweden and Netherlands were the same country. But what I posted still applies. 



Swampfox said:


> Here's your option, it's in the *Netherlands*, it's very affordable, if your suffering just get there.





Swampfox said:


> That's the way the Netherlands law started. A physical exam, a look at your recent MRI, and tomorrow you'll be in the hands of your creator. BTW...no one says Holland or Rhodesia anymore so if you go there....you understand.


Sorry -- I thought Netherlands and Holland were one and the same. I stand corrected. But according to what I've read, the only country that allows foreigners to avail themselves of assisted euthanasia, which I prefer to call "self-deliverance" is Switzerland. 

Are you saying that foreigners can go to Sweden, Netherlands, Holland -- whatever you want to call those countries -- can avail themselves of that service?


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

The Netherlands offer it but....always a but.....you have to have family with you to remove the corpse from the Netherlands. They aren't going to bury you there. It might be considered an undertaker's goldmine as they get to embalm you and then ship you back to your country.


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

I find this conversation interesting, so did a bit of checking around and this appears to be the latest news on which countries/ states allow assisted euthanasia. Switzerland is apparently the only country that allows foreigners to participate. 


> Various forms of medical assisted suicide have been approved in the following states and nations.Each law has its own limits, rules and guidelines. All but Switzerland forbid foreigners this type of help to die.
> 
> *Switzerland - 1940*
> *Oregon (U.S.) - 1994*
> ...


ETA: posted at the same time as Swampfox


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

Traveling around Europe on the trains is like driving around the U.S. You freely move from country to country. I can leave Karlskrona, Sweden at midnight and be in Amsterdam by noon tomorrow with 5 hours sleep on the ferry.


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

The internet is both a blessing and a curse....I'm constantly trying to find the date of the information. Two weeks ago I saw a specialist in Amsterdam and then flew to the states. I'm not a dutch citizen but my options are open. The internet .....things never get taken down as information changes. Go there is the only sure information.


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

I know what you mean about things never being taken down on the internet. What gripes me are articles that aren't dated at all. I was looking for information on an Android app the other day and kept running into articles that were 4 to 5 years old. Completely useless. 

What I posted above was supposedly updated Oct. 15, 2015, so it appears fairly up to date.


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

Your correct, undated articles drive me crazy. You may have uncovered an opportunity.... if you could write a code to delete obsolete articles Google would be forced to pay your price lest a competitor buy it and use it against them. Opportunity becomes the mother of invention. I've been seeing my neurologist in Amsterdam for 6 years but someone above is correct in that most doctors need to know you....there aren't any "Doctor Deaths" at least none I know of. Stage 4 diseases are met with understanding though. They just won't bury you and that is not the states responsibility.


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

Slightly off topic but I do like Billy Joel. 

Sweet Virginia cigarette burning in my hand 
You use to be a friend but now I understand
You've been eating up inside me for sometime and
I know your going to get me somewhere along the line.

It's good to be a young man
and to live the way you please
A young man is the king of 
every kingdom that he sees
There's an old and feeble man not
far behind and
he surely will catch up to him
Somewhere along the line !


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## deb_rn (Apr 16, 2010)

Artificially prolonging life when there is no hope is very difficult to watch. As an RN in a nursing home for 32 yrs, I've seen it all! Assisting with pain management and educating families and patients on what to expect is part of my job. In this day, there is very little cause to allow someone to suffer through the last stages of life. We have so many options to alleviate pain and anxiety. God has a plan for us. Sometimes suffering is part of that plan. Putting feeding tubes in someone that is in the last stages of dying because family isn't ready to let them go is probably NOT God's plan. If family has power of attorney, it must be honored. That is where careful counselling comes into play and honoring the *patient's* actual wishes. I have Hospice people under my care now and always strive to keep them comfortable and calm. We try to be at their side when the moment comes, if family can't be there. It's a blessing to get them through this miserable life and into the next glorious one!

Debbie


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

I once knew of what nurses did WITH the doctors approval. Turn up the oxygen and turn down the morphine drip or vice versa.... I've forgotten but it's viewed as helping someone into the promised land....doctors look the other way as the nurses help. No one is the wiser and it's very helpful and humane.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

deb_rn said:


> Artificially prolonging life when there is no hope is very difficult to watch. As an RN in a nursing home for 32 yrs, I've seen it all! Assisting with pain management and educating families and patients on what to expect is part of my job. In this day, there is very little cause to allow someone to suffer through the last stages of life. We have so many options to alleviate pain and anxiety. God has a plan for us. Sometimes suffering is part of that plan. Putting feeding tubes in someone that is in the last stages of dying because family isn't ready to let them go is probably NOT God's plan. If family has power of attorney, it must be honored. That is where careful counselling comes into play and honoring the *patient's* actual wishes. I have Hospice people under my care now and always strive to keep them comfortable and calm. We try to be at their side when the moment comes, if family can't be there. It's a blessing to get them through this miserable life and into the next glorious one!
> 
> Debbie


You may believe that suffering is in your Gods plan for you but other people may disagree. Would you want to disallow others from ending their suffering because of your religious beliefs?


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

I suppose that's what I started this thread for...for a libertarian respect of each of our beliefs. To the death I defend everyone's separate beliefs. I respect yours, but some might not respect mine. I guess we will just close the hospital room door and do it anyway because I'm not suffering for anyone. If it offends you ? Avert your eyes, close your ears, walk away I'm not asking for your help only your respect of my wishes. Thanks everyone for your opinions and the respect you used as we discussed this volatile issue. It was a pleasure. Go in peace.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

:grouphug:


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## Swampfox (Dec 3, 2015)

My blood is yours; Take It ! Do not make me suffer long.

Marie Antoinette


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## joejeep92 (Oct 11, 2010)

Life is very precious. I have watched many people in their last days and in some cases it is not pretty, COPD and lung cancer come to mind. I also believe there is a certain point where it is time to stop medical intervention, sometimes treatment turns a comfortable 6 months to live with a fairly comfortable end into a year to live sicker than a dog and in pain. However, I don't think I could ever bring myself to be a part of an assisted suicide.


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