# Water Pumping on the Homestead



## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

I think this could go in any number of sub-forums, so mods feel free to move if needed.

I was in South Africa on business for a week recently and had a chance to visit for a couple days with the fellow my wife and I will be staying with in May.

Wells are extremely expensive to drill in SA, but electricity is cheap (relative to here in the U.S.), so what I found was they might drill 3 wells on a 20,000 acre parcel and then pump water to various parts of the property...sometimes pumping water as much as 3 kilometers (nearly 2 miles!).

The topography was a bit of a challenge as well. Where I was in the Eastern Cape I saw local relief of up to 800 feet in just a half mile.

So here is my question: Has anyone here on HT followed the SA model and pumped water any significant distance (say more than a couple hundred feet) to avoid putting in a second well?

If so, what lessons have you learned along the way?

My interest stems from the cabin on our place being about 1,200 feet away from the site we plan to build our house, and I would like to explore the options for pumping (via solar pump into a poly holding tank ideally) vs drilling two wells. 

I could boil it down to a purely economic decision, but what fun would that be? 


:thumb:


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

We had (sold the place) a well on the adjoining 27ac pc. Well is 350ish' feet deep, pump about about 200'. 1hp pump.

One dry year, it looked like our spring that we've used for 30 years was going to quit (it didn't.....later rebuilt the collection box, which was the problem), so ran a new line over to the other place, and tied it into the spring storage-to-house line about mid point.

Total distance for the run from that well up to the spring storage poly tanks was about 2000', with an elevation climb of 80'. I ran 1 1/4" glue PVC line back to where it tied into the old spring-to-house line, which was 1". (about 400' of the 2000' total). It filled two 1500gal poly tanks with NO problem.

Running a larger line helps reduce friction loss, so definitely don't go less than 1".


----------



## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

We pump about 300' to a cistern. With weather like what is coming this week, I have to fill the cistern completely to last through the below freezing temps when I can't pump. Any further north and the lines would have to be buried below the frost line.

When I was doing the garden, I pumped about 1,000 feet to a tank at the garden. It worked, but I wouldn't do it again.


----------



## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

I have a wind mill that lifts 260 feet, and then horizontally for 2000 feet, to the storage tank at the house,

and have a line that goes about 2500 feet that is pressurized by the house system, to a tank in a pasture, 

and I have ran in reverse the line from the windmill and have gravity feed a stock tank that is on the other side of the windmill, thus 2500 feet on only a few pounds of gravity feed pressure, the tank is 20 feet tall, and may be a rise of about 10 feet from the windmill that is 2000 feet away as said in the first line, 

and if you think about it city and rural water districrics have water ran for many miles, 

just use a line that will not reduce the pressure there are charts that one can find on line for distance and pressure


----------



## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

TnAndy said:


> I ran 1 1/4" glue PVC line back to where it tied into the old spring-to-house line, which was 1". (about 400' of the 2000' total). It filled two 1500gal poly tanks with NO problem.
> 
> Running a larger line helps reduce friction loss, so definitely don't go less than 1".


Did you use schedule 40 pvc pipe? In SA they were using the 1' or 1.25" (I forgot to ask) black poly pipe that comes in a coil.

PVC pipe sure seems stronger and less likely to get a hole from a sharp rock. Just more work to assemble the pipe together but anyone who's done it knows it is just tedious, not really work.

Why did you choose pvc over poly?

Thanks,

Tim


----------



## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Harry Chickpea said:


> We pump about 300' to a cistern. With weather like what is coming this week, I have to fill the cistern completely to last through the below freezing temps when I can't pump. Any further north and the lines would have to be buried below the frost line.
> 
> When I was doing the garden, I pumped about 1,000 feet to a tank at the garden. It worked, but I wouldn't do it again.



Do your pipes freeze without bursting? Are they above ground? PVC or poly?

What was bad about your pumping situation to the garden that made it unfavorable? Too much elevation rise?

thanks,

Tim


----------



## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

farminghandyman said:


> I have a wind mill that lifts 260 feet, and then horizontally for 2000 feet, to the storage tank at the house,
> 
> and have a line that goes about 2500 feet that is pressurized by the house system, to a tank in a pasture,
> 
> ...



Now that is the ultimate...wind powered pumping of water, just like has been done for so many years.

I have looked at wind charts of my area and they tell a sad story with regard to using wind for power. Just not enough!

For the leg going to the pasture on house pressure...is that pvc?

What type of pipe (material and size) goes from the windmill to the storage tank at the house?


thanks,

Tim


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

tarbe said:


> Did you use schedule 40 pvc pipe? In SA they were using the 1' or 1.25" (I forgot to ask) black poly pipe that comes in a coil.
> 
> PVC pipe sure seems stronger and less likely to get a hole from a sharp rock. Just more work to assemble the pipe together but anyone who's done it knows it is just tedious, not really work.
> 
> ...


Yeah, sch40 PVC with the bell socket on one end. I think it's better pipe, and easier to work with than a the black roll poly pipe...which is like a big coil spring . You can glue up a few hundred feet pretty quick and just flop it over in the ditch.

Plus, on long runs, you'd have to have a physical connection at the ends of your rolls, being a potential leak.


----------



## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

TnAndy said:


> Plus, on long runs, you'd have to have a physical connection at the ends of your rolls, being a potential leak.


These folks in SA would leave a 10 inch piece of poly pipe sticking out of the ground wherever a connection was made between rolls of poly, just so they would always know were to dig if (when?) a leak developed. 

Made me wonder...


----------



## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

tarbe said:


> Do your pipes freeze without bursting? Are they above ground? PVC or poly?
> 
> What was bad about your pumping situation to the garden that made it unfavorable? Too much elevation rise?
> 
> ...


Black poly on the ground surface. I periodically lift it so that it doesn't get covered over. It freezes without a problem, but a lot of that is because I don't use a foot valve and the water drains back out of the pipe. I have frozen the PVC casing on a filter and cracked it.

There were a number of things that were problematic with the pumping to the garden (1" poly). Primarily:

1. With that long a run, a single pump at the beginning of the run loses effectiveness due to pipe friction and elevation, so I had a second in-line booster pump a few hundred feet upline. It would periodically cavitate if it beat out the ability of the lower pump.

2. Since the pipe wasn't buried it was a pain while bushhogging and subject to damage.

3. It wasn't cost or time effective.


----------



## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

tarbe said:


> Now that is the ultimate...wind powered pumping of water, just like has been done for so many years.
> 
> I have looked at wind charts of my area and they tell a sad story with regard to using wind for power. Just not enough!
> 
> ...


 1" black poly, from the windmill, basically about 2 gallons min.

the other is 1.25" PVC with the possible of 10 gallons a min. @ 30 psi,


----------



## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

I'm looking at running about 600' to where we plan on putting in the orchard. But we will not have to pump it. The orchard is about 100' less in elevation than the well so it'll be gravity working for us to pressurize the system.


----------



## Freeholder (Jun 19, 2004)

This is a timely thread. I need to figure out what size solar well pump (and what brand, if anyone can advise on that) to put on the well at my other property. The well is at the bottom of the property, about fifty feet lower than the house site, and about 350' away from it (I could build closer to the well, but there are government regulations -- we are in an 'antelope overlay' and have to leave most of our land open for wildlife).

So about fifty feet rise above the well and 350' run -- last time I checked, which was in the spring when the water table is high, water was standing above the surface of the ground in the well casing. I imagine it goes down a bit by fall. The well is about 135' deep, looks like a four-inch casing (smaller than I'd like). I don't plan to use batteries for the solar well pump. We'll have a large storage tank at the house, maybe under the slab, and fill that when the sun is shining (which it usually is here, during the day, even in winter we get more sunny days than not).

Kathleen

Almost forgot, I already have a three-foot-deep trench dug down to the well, and the black coiled pipe to go in the trench. It's 1 1/2 inch diameter pipe.


----------



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

tarbe said:


> These folks in SA would leave a 10 inch piece of poly pipe sticking out of the ground wherever a connection was made between rolls of poly, just so they would always know were to dig if (when?) a leak developed.
> 
> Made me wonder...


If you use the metal insert fittings and hose clamps to join poly, it's only a matter of time before the joints leak. Use the Ford fittings instead. The new ones that came along about ten years ago have both a built in clamp and the screw on compression end to ensure it will not come apart. I talked to a guy who saw a poly pressure test. The pipe expanded from the pressure but the fittings stayed put and never leaked.

On long runs of 2" poly I used a tractor to unwind the poly. Getting it to stay unwound is a simple matter of stretching it out on a hot day. When you backfill any pipe never allow rocks next to the pipe. I always use sand for bedding and for fill around and above the pipe so that rocks can't get to the pipe. 

I use two spud bars to hold the pipe down in the trench so there's no voids when I back fill. I like the ability of poly to conform to the changes in the trench as the line changes elevation up and down. The weight of the spud bars does that until I can get some backfill in and then pull the bars put and move to the next point.

My water line has been in at least ten years and has never leaked. I expect it will still be good long after I'm gone.


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Freeholder said:


> This is a timely thread. I need to figure out what size solar well pump (and what brand, if anyone can advise on that) to put on the well at my other property. The well is at the bottom of the property, about fifty feet lower than the house site, and about 350' away from it (I could build closer to the well, but there are government regulations -- we are in an 'antelope overlay' and have to leave most of our land open for wildlife).
> 
> So about fifty feet rise above the well and 350' run -- last time I checked, which was in the spring when the water table is high, water was standing above the surface of the ground in the well casing. I imagine it goes down a bit by fall. The well is about 135' deep, looks like a four-inch casing (smaller than I'd like). I don't plan to use batteries for the solar well pump. We'll have a large storage tank at the house, maybe under the slab, and fill that when the sun is shining (which it usually is here, during the day, even in winter we get more sunny days than not).
> 
> ...


Here's what you need: http://www.backwoodssolar.com/produ...-well-pumps/aquatec-swp-4000-submersible-pump

Hook directly to a 24-36v solar panel of 150 watts, and you'll have a pump that will lift 1.5gal/min at way more elevation than you have. Having the static water level so close to the top is a real bonus.

$800 + the cost of a solar panel.

You can go with Grundfos SQ pumps, but the smallest is twice the price. Meant more for deeper wells, but also have the ability to run off AC as well, which is handy if you're using a generator from time to time.


----------



## Freeholder (Jun 19, 2004)

TnAndy said:


> Here's what you need: http://www.backwoodssolar.com/produ...-well-pumps/aquatec-swp-4000-submersible-pump
> 
> Hook directly to a 24-36v solar panel of 150 watts, and you'll have a pump that will lift 1.5gal/min at way more elevation than you have. Having the static water level so close to the top is a real bonus.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Andy, that is just what I needed! 

Kathleen


----------



## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Freeholder said:


> This is a timely thread. I need to figure out what size solar well pump (and what brand, if anyone can advise on that) to put on the well at my other property. The well is at the bottom of the property, about fifty feet lower than the house site, and about 350' away from it (I could build closer to the well, but there are government regulations -- we are in an 'antelope overlay' and have to leave most of our land open for wildlife).
> 
> So about fifty feet rise above the well and 350' run -- last time I checked, which was in the spring when the water table is high, water was standing above the surface of the ground in the well casing. I imagine it goes down a bit by fall. The well is about 135' deep, looks like a four-inch casing (smaller than I'd like). I don't plan to use batteries for the solar well pump. We'll have a large storage tank at the house, maybe under the slab, and fill that when the sun is shining (which it usually is here, during the day, even in winter we get more sunny days than not).
> 
> ...


My setup uses the Shurflo 9300 series pump and can work just as you want. It is a diaphram pump soo it does have some limitations. 

First it can only be installed with a max 100' submergance. So you couldn't put it at the bottom of the well if the static level is at ground level. 

Then it needs rebuilt every few years. So if you can't pull the pump yourself to rebuild it, it's not a good choice for you. Usually 5 years but could be sooner depending on your setup and water. I keep a rebuild kit for that and I have a spare pump.

Upside the pump only costs about 1/4 of what a positive displacement solar pump costs.

Everything to install solar on my well cost about $2000. With the higher head caused by pumping to the house you'll need a bigger array then what I use though.

My system is posted in the alternative energy forum.

WWW


----------



## potter28 (Sep 10, 2014)

Pvc is only used for sewer lines underground, not water lines. You can only buy it in 20' lengths and that's a lot of joints to leak. Pvc will break easily if a rock is dropped during backfill especially if its cold. Underground water lines should be only polyethylene pipe. I usually run 1' 160psi for well lines and hydrants, but to play it safe get 200psi which is considerably thicker and you wont have to be as careful backfilling. It comes in 100,300 and 600 ft coils and is a bugger to unroll when cold. Do it in the summer and let the pipe lay in the sun for several hours first. Remember to start uphill and roll down. Friction loss does matter at those distances but you can google it to figure it out although 11/4" should be fine. I've done this on several jobs one being from a spring on a mountain running 1/2 mile down under a road to a storage tank in a basement of a lodge, then re pressurizing with a shallow well jet pump to feed the building.


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

potter28 said:


> Pvc is only used for sewer lines underground, not water lines. You can only buy it in 20' lengths and that's a lot of joints to leak.


Really ? There are probably a zillion feet of it run for water lines. Literally. The only thing water departments run around here, for example.

Once you glue it together, it melts the plastic and becomes one piece. I've dug up PVC lines with a backhoe that jerked multiple sections out and never broke at the joint...it breaks where it finally turns an angle, kinks, then breaks.

Use it or don't use it, but joint weakness certainly isn't an issue.


----------



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

tarbe said:


> Did you use schedule 40 pvc pipe? In SA they were using the 1' or 1.25" (I forgot to ask) black poly pipe that comes in a coil.
> 
> PVC pipe sure seems stronger and less likely to get a hole from a sharp rock. Just more work to assemble the pipe together but anyone who's done it knows it is just tedious, not really work.
> 
> ...


 Our Old Place I was going to run PEX, which we thought would work better than any??

big rockpile


----------



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

potter28 said:


> Pvc is only used for sewer lines underground, not water lines. You can only buy it in 20' lengths and that's a lot of joints to leak. Pvc will break easily if a rock is dropped during backfill especially if its cold. Underground water lines should be only polyethylene pipe. I usually run 1' 160psi for well lines and hydrants, but to play it safe get 200psi which is considerably thicker and you wont have to be as careful backfilling. It comes in 100,300 and 600 ft coils and is a bugger to unroll when cold. Do it in the summer and let the pipe lay in the sun for several hours first. Remember to start uphill and roll down. Friction loss does matter at those distances but you can google it to figure it out although 11/4" should be fine. I've done this on several jobs one being from a spring on a mountain running 1/2 mile down under a road to a storage tank in a basement of a lodge, then re pressurizing with a shallow well jet pump to feed the building.


 Everyone here uses PVC??? But are switching to PEX.

big rockpile


----------



## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Goodness, maybe my ignorance will show here....

We ran the 1" black (coiled) water pipe about 300 ft just from the well (79' deep with submersible pump and pitless adapter) to the trailer, then continued about 100 ft to both barn and chicken house, then continued another 100 ft to the buck house and back of garden. All this was buried OVER 2 ft deep as out frost line is 18 inches. Not once has this well run dry (despite our many droughts) and not once has it frozen. (ONE spot from house to barn got a pin-size hole in it because we had stupidly purchased the cheaper pipe for that particular run.)


----------



## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

sorry...double post


----------



## potter28 (Sep 10, 2014)

Are you sure your water departments aren't running CTS (copper tube size ) polyethylene water lines and not pvc. Some municipalities I work in still require K-copper for their service lines but most have switched to the CTS pipe. You can run whatever you want to underground but if your concerned about cost, time and longevity you'll run the rolls of pipe I spoke of earlier. Have seen some jobs on a horse farm where another plumber used 20' sticks of pvc , since pvc gets brittle over time and has very little flexibility every yard hydrant there had to be dug up and repaired because the horses brushing against them snapped off the pvc underground. I've been running my own successful plumbing heating business for over 30 years so I feel I can offer some valuable input for you. Once again, sandy soil use 160psi black well pipe, rocky soil 200psi, use stainless steel or brass insert fittings , double clamped . You'll have to heat up the pipe first to get them in all the way.


----------



## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

potter28 said:


> Once again, sandy soil use 160psi black well pipe, rocky soil 200psi, use stainless steel or brass insert fittings , double clamped . You'll have to heat up the pipe first to get them in all the way.


Sounds like a good plan!


----------



## Bottleneck (Apr 22, 2014)

TnAndy said:


> Really ? There are probably a zillion feet of it run for water lines. Literally. The only thing water departments run around here, for example.
> 
> Once you glue it together, it melts the plastic and becomes one piece. I've dug up PVC lines with a backhoe that jerked multiple sections out and never broke at the joint...it breaks where it finally turns an angle, kinks, then breaks.
> 
> Use it or don't use it, but joint weakness certainly isn't an issue.


lol, got to add, i was digging up the end of a water line (for an old trailer house, i was just trying to locate it) and one good wack with posthole diggers found it, my hole flooding was my first clue!. but who knows if they used quality pipe considering that there are no building codes here. is there a way to connect the polyethylene pipe to pvc?


----------



## potter28 (Sep 10, 2014)

Pvc female adapter with clamp around threaded end ,snugged up. Then screw stainless steel or brass insert adapter into it with pipe dope on the threads. The clamp on the pvc adapter will help with over tightening of the insert adapter as to not splitting the adapter. Other end of insert adapter is what the polyethylene pipe goes on after its heated up. As posted by TnAndy he is correct the joints are the strongest part if using pvc, that's not the issue. The problem is improper reaming, priming and gluing of the fitting. Have seen this many times. I sometimes have this happen when trying to pressure test water and sewer lines for inspection whether they're underground or not. Even doing it properly you can't always get it right every time and it sucks to have to try and locate an underground leak (usually in winter) and make the repair. Bad pvc glue joints are very common and the leak is usually underground and will have leaked for a long time till discovered because its absorbing into the ground. Have even seen pvc joints primered but not glued at all hold for months or years till they come apart. Also remember if you have to repair a pvc water line underground you will have to dig up much more because there is not much flexibility in the pipe to get it back together, polyethylene if damaged can be heated and bent in a much smaller space, less digging, less downtime, less yard repairs.


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Don't know if this hydraulic ram pump has any application in your situation, but it's interesting. Let gravity and a rubber bladder do the work.

http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/irrig/Equip/ram.htm -DIY system; also available commercially

-video of system in action: http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...&mid=DF82F938826B86C94487DF82F938826B86C94487

Plenty of other videos: http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=hydraulic+ram+pump&FORM=HDRSC3


----------



## Ozarka (Apr 15, 2007)

FWIW:
Recently I took a poorly designed system that was eating motors and reconfigured it like this: The source is a spring, gravity flowing into a 1,000 gallon concrete tank. There is a substantial Gould submersible in the holding tank which pushes water 2,600 ft horizintally, 300' vertically into another 1,000 gal tank in the lady's yard. I placed a galvanized (non bladder) water tank at the bottom; the static pressure at the pump is about 175 psi with the valve up top filling. the 1.5" line terminates in a float valve at the upper reservoir and the pressure switch shuts off the submersible when it fills. I installed a shallow well jet pump, filter and pressure tank on top of the holding tank and built a 6" concrete block room around the equipment, insulated with 1 inch rigid blue foam. She puts a 60 watt incandescent light in the fixture and just leaves the light on during freezing temperatures. The system works flawlessly, the pump problems disappeared, and she has 45 psi behind her shower head...
There is another house tapped into the long line about halfway through its length.


----------

