# Harness ?'s For The Driving Folks



## AugustRED (Apr 18, 2010)

I have a 39" Shetland mare who took to driving like a duck to water - took all of about 20mins (she must have done it in a former life). Anyway I picked up a cart Saturday because it was an awesome deal but now I need the harness to connect the two . I wanted a biothane harness because of the easy upkeep but really don't have $400 to spend right now so considering a leather harness instead since they are more readily available at about half the price. I'm well aware that many are probably cheapy's but I found a harness shop in OK that appears to make decent stuff so I'm considering that...

Questions:
*Open bridle vs blinkers/blinders* - seems everything traditionally comes with blinkers but I've seem people use an open bridle. Pros/cons? Are they mandatory for showing (4H, county fair)? I've noticed the blinkers can end up to close to the eye & whiskers, just seems an open bridle would eliminate any such issue & not sure they're necessary for simple single pony pleasure driving that I'll be doing...

*Over check vs side check* - pros/cons? How necessary is a check system at all for say driving around the field? Pretty sure it's required for showing? I always understood it was created to keep the horse's head up largely for appearance sake, probably somewhat a safety thing too? I'd have one on the harness just wondering if I can remove it at times when we're just cruising the back yard?

*Harness shop* - http://robinsonharnesss.com/ Thoughts? Looks decent to me but the pictures aren't the greatest. Prices aren't up to date either - $185 plain, $210 spotted...

Thanks


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

If you've truncated the story for brevity's sake, then skip this post. If the mare has never been harnessed or hitched to a cart then she isn't "driving". She is "ground driving". And there is an entire cosmos of difference between "ground driving" and "pulling a cart". Also, most inexpensive carts are not safe. Be very careful. There's no wreck like a driving wreck.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

From what I can see of the leather harness offered at the web site you linked, it is so-so stuff. Not being able to lay hands on the leather and see the stitching, I cannot comment further.

I'm not a fan of overchecks. Those are primarily used to influence the horse's posture. I do use a sidecheck on my horses in all but the most scrambly of footings. I don't keep it tight... just tight enough to prevent them from being able to get their heads down to graze. 

Training a horse to accept blinders is one stage in the training of a good driving horse. Think of it as... meditation for a martial arts student. If a horse will not accept blinders, then there is a hole in his psyche that tells you he is likely not a great candidate for being a driving horse.

A quality bridle will have cupped blinders that make room for the eyelashes and guard hairs. The blinder stays often have a wire stiffener that allow you to bring the blinders in or push them out, for a somewhat custom fit. 

I start my horses in an open bridle and work them up to a closed bridle as soon as possible, since I learn a great deal about a horse's mindset and personality once the closed bridle is on. Once the horse is "broke", I occasionally drive in an open bridle. There are times when it is helpful to have the horse be able to see all around.


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## TheFarmerMommy (Mar 21, 2014)

Can you not find a nylon harness? Cheapest by far. Leather is a pain. Needs oiling, is prone to cracking.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

Not sure which of the pony harness models you are considering, but your harness should include a breeching strap (also called britchen some places) because those are the "brakes" that prevent cart hitting pony in the rump, probably causing kicking or a runaway. Breeching goes around the rump, down below the butt cheek, on the animal.

Harness for a single driving animal, ESPECIALLY hitched to a cart with 2-wheels, SHOULD have a tree in the harness saddle so there is no shaft weight on the pony/horse spine when you drive. You can injure or damage an equine by putting the weight pressure directly on the spine in work. The tree inside the saddle, lifts harness and any weight up above the spine for work. You can test a harness saddle for having a tree, by gently pushing both sides towards each other. With the tree, padded sides holding the terret rings for reins, shouldn't move. Without a tree, you can probably fold the saddle part in half easily.

When I look at harness to purchase, I want GOOD hardware. Buckles need to be in a style all the same, maybe just larger and smaller. Not two or three KINDS of buckles on that harness. Tongues of buckles NEED to be steel with some size to it. Not thin wire or any kind of brass tongues that will bend if pulled or stressed hard. Those buckle tongues are ALL that is holding harness together, so you want them STRONG enough to take the work load or force of frightened animal spooking. Equipment that gives/breaks with strain, is when things really go down the toilet! Animal thinks with a bit more fight, he WILL ESCAPE the scary thing. So he fights worse!! I know good equipment, no failures in buckles has PREVENTED quite a few incidents from ever happening. Horse jumped, heard WHOA, stopped and stood with NO broken equipment. Everyone caught their breath, horse walked off quietly when asked.

Driving bridles with blinkers are what you should be using as a safety tool. Blinkers are there to prevent horse seeing EVERYTHING around them as they do in pasture or riding. Blinkers direct the vision forward of the animal, so he never sees dogs running about, is easier to control AND is not likely to read your body language and make a WRONG CHOICE you never asked for. Ridden horses who get startled or jump, usually can be ridden thru that. Carriage horse going into a ditch is GOING to be taking the vehicle and people along which is BAD. We trim off eye whiskers that are rubbing on blinkers, make the bridle fit so nothing is rubbing the eye area or eyelashes. Blinkers need to be centered on the eyeball, so animal can't be peeking above or below the blinker, see things he should not. The driving bridle should have some kind of noseband that holds the bridle cheeks tight to his face, so there is no gaping of the cheeks when you use the reins to see things behind. Lots of inexpensive harnesses don't have a proper noseband going all the way around the muzzle, can cause problems with gaping of bridle.

Check reins seem to be automatic addition to most inexpensive harness. You would have to read the Rules for 4-H, go over the details in Driving to see if it is required. In my State, MI, 4-H requires check reins, they believe it will prevent kicking??? Not sure who came up with that, but we just put it on VERY loosely, never tightened while horse wore it. Driving in other venues, Shows, Competitions, we never use any kind of check reins. Horses NEED to get head down to pull in heavy dirt, going up a hill, check rein prevents good use of the horse body. Showing in Breed shows, they might require a check rein, just because folks have "always" used them.

Go over your new cart, remove and grease the wheels, check ALL the bolts and nuts for wear and tightness. Shafts for wrinkles where shafts may have been pushed wide or tight to fit different animals, has metal fatigue there. Maybe replace tires and tubes if they have any wear or cracked sidewalls, so tires don't blow out or go flat unexpectedly. You probably should post a photo of your cart, so we can point out visible issues before using it.

Glad the pony did well ground driving. Next is to continue her education with getting used to poles beside her, then on her harness but dragging one end on the ground. When she is good for that, doing voice commands and her giving the correct response right away. After poles, you can advance to SMALL tire dragging, so she gets used to pushing into her load, moving the resistance from behind. 

Please keep in mind that WHOA is your emergency brakes, she needs to reach the point where she does stop on a loose rein EVERY TIME. No extra steps, dancing, just a dead stop and stand until TOLD to walk on. When things go bad, you holler WHOA and she stops and stands until you can fix things.

We will alternate the open and blinker bridle while doing our ground work, long lining with the poles and tire. Horse gets real good at reading you, body signals you do, starts anticipating commands, so this is where you probably need to use mostly the blinker bridle to prevent anticipating things. Only can be ONE "captain of the ship" and it needs to be the human with the reins driving. No horse help is needed!! Once you get pony going in the vehicle, she should be wearing a blinker bridle to keep focused. 

A number of folks seem to come up with the idea of going without blinkers, think it is new! So they give it a whirl, say how wonderful horse goes until the day horse sees something and reacts badly. I know at least a dozen folks who have wrecked badly with open bridles while driving. There is a REASON 99% of harness used, comes with blinkers on the bridle! There are different styles of blinkers, some are more open, while others seem to just give horse a tiny glimpse ahead. You can modify the fit as Jennie mentioned open them wider or keep them tighter to the eyes, depending on the horse and reactions to things around him when you go driving.


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## mrs whodunit (Feb 3, 2012)

I have only ever driven donkeys.

For them, I prefer blinder-less but for a horse I am sure blinders are a great thing.

I have a nylon harness which is great for casual driving. Jeffers has them reasonably.

We have a pony we are wanting to teach to drive, who knows if she has driven in the past. She has got an incredible trot.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Here is my "open bridle" spiel.

Horses that are unaccustomed to going without blinders can certainly have a wreck when put into an open bridle. I think that people get a false sense of security if they switch to an open bridle, have a drive or two and nothing untoward happens. Horses don't extrapolate well. Things and situations that they have previously encountered with closed bridles are "new" with an open bridle. It is similar to teaching horses a new maneuver from the left and from the right. There are countries where closed bridles are unheard-of and they do not have an epidemic of runaways.

When someone has an incident while using an open bridle or a bitless bridle, there is a strong tendency to blame the bridle for the problem. I feel it gets an unwarrantedly large percentage of the blame. Really, I think it's more of a green driver problem. Green drivers want to try the open bridle or bitless bridle because they feel there is a kindness to be found there (I don't agree). When they inevitably experience a wreck, runaway or other incident (as green drivers frequently do), the open or bitless bridle is blamed. But I feel that most of those drivers would have found some way to wreck anyhow.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

jennigrey said:


> Here is my "open bridle" spiel.
> 
> Horses that are unaccustomed to going without blinders can certainly have a wreck when put into an open bridle. I think that people get a false sense of security if they switch to an open bridle, have a drive or two and nothing untoward happens. Horses don't extrapolate well. Things and situations that they have previously encountered with closed bridles are "new" with an open bridle. It is similar to teaching horses a new maneuver from the left and from the right. There are countries where closed bridles are unheard-of and they do not have an epidemic of runaways.
> 
> When someone has an incident while using an open bridle or a bitless bridle, there is a strong tendency to blame the bridle for the problem. I feel it gets an unwarrantedly large percentage of the blame. Really, I think it's more of a green driver problem. Green drivers want to try the open bridle or bitless bridle because they feel there is a kindness to be found there (I don't agree). When they inevitably experience a wreck, runaway or other incident (as green drivers frequently do), the open or bitless bridle is blamed. But I feel that most of those drivers would have found some way to wreck anyhow.


 What you say certainly makes a lot of sense. 

I also see the way the driven horse is being used, farm, commercial rides, recreational light horse driving, being often very different in what each horse expects to meet or respond appropriately to.

I don't see a number of products folks who ride, or sold primarily to riding customers, as products that transfer well to uses in Driving. Often the mechanics of rein lines to hands are too different for device to be effective away from ridden uses where raising your hands with reins, will effect a change in horse. Can't do that Driving, with reins run thru rings on harness.

As with OP, most folks who wish to Drive their horse, seldom take ENOUGH time in training, consider horse "driving trained" if it doesn't react badly to someone walking behind with lines to direct the travel. So trying to drag anything to get horse more developed in driving, is often skipped. They go to hitching as Step 2. Usually with unpleasant results. 

Ponies and Minis seem to have a deep acceptance of things done to them, until they just can't stand it anymore and explode. They have no true basics trained in, no knowledge of how to deal with situations while in harness. And as many have found, a person, even a large, strong person has more than they can handle with even a small Mini or pony who is ready to fight you! You CAN NOT hold them!! People and animals both get hurt in those fights.

I hate hearing and seeing wrecks which could be avoided with better training, handling of the animal over time to teach it skills.

And most importantly, NOT EVERY EQUINE WILL DRIVE! You can have a good animal, train it right, but it doesn't have the mind to accept driving. Every trainer will tell you that some horses/ponies fail at reaching the driving stage. They drag stuff, have the commands down, but when you just walk them with cart behind (unhitched), they never settle. First reaction is ALWAYS to spook, jump, run, not ever wait for you to fix a problem. Horse/pony like that is just wired wrong for Driving, NOT going to change his first reaction to scary stuff. Certainly not always the Trainer's fault, horse is what he is.


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## AugustRED (Apr 18, 2010)

I appreciate all the insight. I'm not 100% new to driving but pretty close & it's all very helpful. Just to clarify a couple things the cart (which I will try to post pictures of) was a good deal at $300 because it's practically new. As for the pony - yes, lots of training yet to do (& I have a much better idea what to work on now, thanks!) but when I said driving I actually meant driving fully hitched, not just ground driving. Having never started anything in harness I took her out to a friends house & they introduced her - when she didn't blink at anything they just kind of kept going & next thing I knew they were driving her around the roundpen and arena. I think I'll go back through everything mentioned though before I try hitching her up again...

The thoughts on the blinkers was REALLY insightful - much better understanding of what all they are useful for. I worked with a mini who had a wreck while wearing blinkers, ended up scared of the cart so I took the blinkers off for a while since I thought he needed to see what was behind him and not just feel/hear it. In that case it worked out. But with Izzy I'm incline to go with blinkers now just for the reason that she would probably be too focused on what's behind her i.e. our movement in the cart. I've ground driven my QP mare and she was pretty nervous to begin with wearing blinkers but seemed to get used to it. She to would probably be over sensitive to my movements behind her and anticipate cues as well...

I'm a hesitant to buy a leather harness without getting my hands on it as well. Perhaps I just need to wait a few months and save for the biothane harness - I really want whatever I get to outlast the pony & she's only six ...


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Just as harness comes in many price points and levels of quality, so do carts. Most of the inexpensive carts are not what I would consider safe for a beginner, but I understand that most people start out with a cart that makes me cringe. Most inexpensive carts are designed to withstand stress and strain from the "normal" directions... those strains and stresses that a cart would undergo during normal use. But even a small tantrum, an unintentionally-tight corner, an unseen stump in the grass and the cart is suddenly being exposed to stresses that exceed its design.

My standards for carts are pretty high. $700 (retail) for a new cart is the price-point where I start thinking that it might be a safe product.

Here's a pretty good video 
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTrPP3542cg[/ame]

Edited to add: the YouTube link goes to an 8-minute sample of the video that you can buy from Rural Heritage. Not the video in its entirety.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

Just a few thoughts. 

What somebody else said is the truth. Ground driving (full harness or not) is not broke or even mildly experienced. Doesn't prove a thing. It's not that far from being ridden or long lined. Pulling a vehicle safely is a whole 'nother world.

A pony can kill you quick when driving. Read that one again.

I wouldn't drive without blinkers. In a pinch, "maybe" my old guys but I know them like I know myself, and I know what they've done in their life. Absolutely no reason NOT to use blinkers. Remember to trim the eyebrows. They cause the most "issues" with blinker sensitive horses.

I wouldn't drive without a check. Overchecks get a bit limiting, and I do prefer side-checks, but they are a SAFETY item. Prevents the horse from getting his head near enough to the ground to kick the tar out of you.

I wouldn't train without a kicking strap. The first time (and about the first 200 times) you need all the help you can get. 

I have one old Standardbred who has shared thousands of trail and road miles with me over the years, but I'd never drive him without a kicking strap and side checks - after 25+ years together. Crow-hopping is no fun when you are in a cart...

That said - Good Luck.

Added: Be sure to learn to drive before you train. Even taking some English riding lessons helps a LOT if you don't understand "contact". Horses are driven on contact (a consistent "handshake" between your hands and his mouth) - only way they have of communicating with you and you with him. Remember, you have no legs and no seat. Also, be sure you have steady, independent hands, and understand the concept of "outside rein". Watch that lady driving the horse in the video. See how strong and still her hands are, and how that horse reaches and "feels" her hands. They are constantly "talking" to each other.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

When I knew nothing about driving, I got a good deal on some rotten, dried leather harness. I know better now and luckily, my limited knowledge didn't cost me my life. I have more experience now and have bypassed some cheap carts and wagons because I saw the dangers. Not sure a person new to driving would know better.
If you intend on entering your pony in local shows, attend a few first. I have seen folks show up at an event unprepared and laughed at just because they jumped into it without learning what is expected.
If a $400 biothane pony harness is out of your budget, I doubt you'll enjoy even the smaller local fair driving competitions. 
I have seen horses that were great on ground driving, but totally out of control when hitched. Be sure to do it in a round corral. Go slow and be safe.


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## Farmer2B (Oct 20, 2011)

Must have blinders. It is unfair to ask a horse to not spook at something that seems to be chasing him, ESPECIALLY if he is not being hooked regularly. 
Stay far away from any carts, they are never a good idea. You are always too low to the ground, with a mini seeing over them is not difficult but you face the likelihood of getting the cart caught on something in a field, which could easily become a wreck.

Never seen a need for checks.

One of the things we use to train horses is a travois made of black agricultural tubing and usually a light dowel inside of it. If the horse freaks, the travois is too flexible to break, and not heavy enough to flip her over. You can attach a piece of ply to the end of it to stand on if you'd like.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

2-wheeled vehicles are far safer for new drivers than 4-wheeled ones. 4-wheeled ones are too easy to jacknife. Use a kicking strap and it's as safe as you can get with driving.


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## AugustRED (Apr 18, 2010)

Finally got pictures of the cart. I've been involved in a driving accident - well aware of how scary/dangerous they are & don't care to go there again. 4 wheeled vehicles scare me for the reason mentioned. Showing that will be done is 4H & county fair - cost around $3-4/class once you have the animal & equipment. 
Cart is sitting covered in the barn because life gets in the way - cross fenced a pasture last week & after several days two of my horses somehow forgot it was there :facepalmthinking they must have spooked at night not to have seen it), fortunately they didn't destroy themselves in the process, just bruised & scraped, meds the vet prescribed is making them forget all about it though. Cross fence is a loss, will have to be redone. Fence is all 4' x 4" x 4" red brand woven wire mesh livestock fencing that they've never had an issue with. So for now everyone is in paddocks/stalls until we fix it & add TONS of caution tape or something for visibility. 
All the advice is appreciated, when I get back around to getting a harness I'll have a much better idea what to look for & where to get started with Izzy...


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Robinson Harness shop does have some pretty nice harnesses.
I made sure they used really nice leather.

Have a working Harness for Maggie from them. And another super, super nice working harness for a 13.3 hand Fjord mare. Sold the mare.. and finally sold the harness, for as much as I bought it for...it was that nice.

Lots of folks have already given you good advise. 

I would do a lot more ground work, and even using a drag or stone boat for your wee horse to pull before hitching to cart.
Some animals are just plan mellow, but they still need proper training so they and you can stay safe.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

bergere said:


> I would do a lot more ground work, and even using a drag or stone boat for your wee horse to pull before hitching to cart.
> Some animals are just plan mellow, but they still need proper training so they and you can stay safe.


 I would NOT advise using a drag or stone boat item,nothing larger than the auto tire mentioned in my previous post to start your ground work with. Starting a beginner animal with too much weight, will scare them about being able to move their load. USUALLY the animal will TRY going forward, but when he hits the weight behind, he quits. If encouraged, he tries again, hits the weight and can start plunging, rearing, to try getting away from "being held" from behind. Tires are many sizes, so you choose one that is not too big or too tiny, for your size animal. He needs to easily move the dragging tire, but tire needs to be of a weight he feels back there. The tire is all about friction caused on the sidewall during the dragging exercises. Resistance of dragging on the dirt is what wears out the animal, not a heavy load! Compact car tires are much too small for any but the smallest pony or Mini. Larger pony or horse won't notice them, too light! Pickup truck tires are often a good size for medium size horses, while car tires are fine for bigger ponies. Big horse might do well with dually size tires, while drafts might start with a semi-truck tire and not be discouraged in moving it.

Sounds real dumb, but a driving horse has to be taught to be brave about weight behind. Good Trainer starts with smaller load weight, then builds confidence in horse as he adds small amounts to make weight heavier. You want horse to TRY and never fail to move his load. This takes time to gain bravery, willingness to try when asked.

Stone boats, big ol' tractor tires are much too heavy for most light animals to move easily in a training session. Really can be discouraging to a new driving animal. You sure don't want to teach quitting!!


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

goodhors said:


> I would NOT advise using a drag or stone boat item,nothing larger than the auto tire mentioned in my previous post to start your ground work with. Starting a beginner animal with too much weight, will scare them about being able to move their load. USUALLY the animal will TRY going forward, but when he hits the weight behind, he quits. If encouraged, he tries again, hits the weight and can start plunging, rearing, to try getting away from "being held" from behind. Tires are many sizes, so you choose one that is not too big or too tiny, for your size animal. He needs to easily move the dragging tire, but tire needs to be of a weight he feels back there. The tire is all about friction caused on the sidewall during the dragging exercises. Resistance of dragging on the dirt is what wears out the animal, not a heavy load! Compact car tires are much too small for any but the smallest pony or Mini. Larger pony or horse won't notice them, too light! Pickup truck tires are often a good size for medium size horses, while car tires are fine for bigger ponies. Big horse might do well with dually size tires, while drafts might start with a semi-truck tire and not be discouraged in moving it.
> 
> Sounds real dumb, but a driving horse has to be taught to be brave about weight behind. Good Trainer starts with smaller load weight, then builds confidence in horse as he adds small amounts to make weight heavier. You want horse to TRY and never fail to move his load. This takes time to gain bravery, willingness to try when asked.
> 
> Stone boats, big ol' tractor tires are much too heavy for most light animals to move easily in a training session. Really can be discouraging to a new driving animal. You sure don't want to teach quitting!!



Nice that you know how much weight I would use on my Miniatures. Never ceases to amaze me how people can assume others do not know what they are doing.

I don't normally go into a lot of detail, because some one just starting out driving should really either take lessons or have a mentor that knows what they are doing.
There is too much detail that can be lost with just writing things out.

A good trainer would do lots of ground driving, in all kinds of conditions, until the the horse knows the cues and commands 100% of the time, before going onto the next step.
I start ground driving with a halter and long lines... once they perfect that.. I add a bit but do not use the bit, until they get used to it,, they are just holding it in their mouths.
Then the proper bitting starts. I would highly recommend using a _Rein board_.

Stone boat, scaled to miniature horse size. Light enough not to put stress on the horse but not so light its going to flip and scare the mini. Wide enough it won't flip, normally on skids of some type. But you have to know how to make them.

To drag.... a small tire with a safety pull, so you can get it off the traces/Swingle tree quickly, or use a small log with the same system.

Pole or shaft set... PVC pipe, places like you would the shafts of a cart, normally I have these dragging on the ground. The parts on the ground, will be attached to each other, wide enough apart to not pose an issue for the mini.

Ie example... Maggie... Started her at 4 years old, she is now 18 years old. 

Trained by me,, to do scaled down draft work, to skid, to pull a purple Toys R US sled, to move a bag of shavings or what not, to cart, to sawbuck and panniers.
Started slow and worked my way up. Took years. Can drive her by reins and voice or just voice commands alone.
Just to tell you in detail how she was trained, like all the other horses I have owned or worked with,, would take up a 500+ page book.

This is Maggie in her latest Cart. A Hyperbike. Her first cart was a simple easy entry... something I recommend with starting horses to drive.
Her next cart was a posh.. top of the line Country Road cart... now the hyperbike.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

bergere said:


> Nice that you know how much weight I would use on my Miniatures. Never ceases to amaze me how people can assume others do not know what they are doing.


 Problem comes because you didn't SAY or specify, restrictions in size in your post recommending use of a drag or stone boat for training an animal. You take offense, post a second time to tell us how experienced you are with driving animals! But a writer who does not go into detail, as you did in the second post, chances steering the new-to-driving person in a poor direction. Around here, stone boats are HEAVY, tools used to move heavy things, teach DRAFT sized animals to work smoothly over time. Heck, MAYBE you have that kind of horse experience, which would be poor information to a light horse trainer! I tend to over-detail things in my posts, trying to prevent anyone coming to a wrong conclusion when they read the post.

Not sure about you, but I never guess a horse forum writer is always "that" experienced with horses. Without your further details, how should I know you are an experienced driver or driving animal trainer? Just recommending use of a stone boat for training, is not great advice if size proportion is not mentioned, along with other training steps. Seen WAY TOO MANY pieces of driving advice used wrongly by new comers in any horse activity.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

You are right... in some ways.

However, Stone boats are used with miniature horses too. At least in the driving circles.
No one in their right mind would use a Shire sized Stone boat on a miniature horse.

You could of check with past posts.. see how long the poster has been around and what they have written. Might give you a clue on wither someone knows something or not. Some of us have been here a very long time.

I also nearly always say.. take lessons... learn before you hitch any sized animal to a cart. 
There is NO WAY for anyone to be able to write out all the steps on training a horse to cart and have a beginner understand... specially on a forum.

Driving can be more dangerous than riding.


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## Topping33 (Sep 10, 2018)

It’s a good thought. Drivers must keep harness for their protection and for passengers. There are some precautions that one can take in order to save both, his/her life and license. My cousin has been working with a Los Angeles DUI lawyer and often tells me all that.


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## Grey Mare (Jun 28, 2013)

Bergere....the photo of you and the most adorable mini, the cart shafts look as if they are too far forward and your pretty much up on that ponies butt. I was taught that the shaft end should be middle of the shoulder or a little past when harnessed, not so far forward, as if you turn, the shaft will poke the horse or impede movement and turns. 


Ground manners and a good whoa are very important. As for harness, I love leather, you can't go wrong there. I do also have biothane and chrome show harness, easier in some aspects yes.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I think the hyperbike carts are supposed to be that close, or at least every one I've ever seen has been.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Grey Mare said:


> Bergere....the photo of you and the most adorable mini, the cart shafts look as if they are too far forward and your pretty much up on that ponies butt. I was taught that the shaft end should be middle of the shoulder or a little past when harnessed, not so far forward, as if you turn, the shaft will poke the horse or impede movement and turns.
> 
> 
> Ground manners and a good whoa are very important. As for harness, I love leather, you can't go wrong there. I do also have biothane and chrome show harness, easier in some aspects yes.



I haven't been on here for a long time but a friend told me there was a post to this most elder of threads.

Maggie is in a Hyperbike. Would be a good thing, to educated ones self, before they make a fool of themselves and tell someone how to harness a horse in such a cart.
Please, do go ahead and contact the Maker of the Hyperbike at Graham Carriage works and tell him how he has done it wrong all these years. 
Sure Bob would love to hear from you, or more like educate you.


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## Grey Mare (Jun 28, 2013)

bergere said:


> I haven't been on here for a long time but a friend told me there was a post to this most elder of threads.
> 
> Maggie is in a Hyperbike. Would be a good thing, to educated ones self, before they make a fool of themselves and tell someone how to harness a horse in such a cart.
> Please, do go ahead and contact the Maker of the Hyperbike at Graham Carriage works and tell him how he has done it wrong all these years.
> Sure Bob would love to hear from you, or more like educate you.


I was making a comment, yet you come on and act all high brow....would it not have been easier to merely say, these type of cart/carriages are made to sit like this or that, etc? No need to be so rude about it. As for education, I am all for it, when presented in the right context...but most certainly not how you presented yourself. But then again, how you responded speaks volumes for who you are and the type of driver as well....

Happy trails to you Bergere.....


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