# Rabbit hide tanning using Alum?



## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

Has anyone used Alum? How did it go, any tips?


----------



## Lilith (Dec 29, 2012)

There is a thread in the rabbits section where a gal is using alum. I have used alum in the past, but was not happy with the results. Mostly due to problems with hides getting wet. I have not used this method in forever, but the basics are the same no matter what solution you use to tan hides with. If you go with Alum, be very picky about your measurements going into the solution.


----------



## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

Lilith said:


> If you go with Alum, be very picky about your measurements going into the solution.


How do you mean? Make sure it's exact or add extras? 

What do you use now? I just don't want to use battery acid. I'm going to try Tannins powder after I run out of the Alum. 
Thanks.


----------



## Lilith (Dec 29, 2012)

When I say be picky, I mean be exact. 

I exclusivity use the battery acid solution, its cheap, easy, waterproof, lasts forever-ish and what I am used to. I can make it sound really scary when I describe it, but I also talk about all the possible what ifs. I have found that by being careful and using my head, I have never once been hurt by it. That possibility is out there, and I want people to know that when telling them about it. But really, when you use your head, its about as dangerous as cleaning the wires on your car battery.


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Howdy all,

I want to relate my experience tanning hides. When I started up rabbit production for meat, I hated to throw the hides away, seemed real wasteful. So I spent a few weeks researching ways to tan hair-on small animal hides. I finally settled on a salt and battery acid for the pickling. For the actual tanning I do smoke tanning. Through experimenting I found out that making the hides soft and pliable was not tanning. Tanning sets the hide so if it gets wet it will not harden up. Several ways of doing this. Cheap and easy way is oil tanning. I tried it with a variety of oils. It works, but if the hide gets wet, it leaches out the oil and the skin will harden up and have to be re-softened. After smoke tanning (the smoke adds tannin to the hide) the hides could be soaked in water, dried out and still be flexible. My wife and I have made a queen sized blanket and I am currently making a blanket Indian style. Have made some hats (too warm to wear in less than -10 degrees. I have tanned up around 300 hides by this method. Cost per hide is minimal. I buy the acid at an auto parts store by the 5 gallon and it has lasted for around 80 hides I think. I buy sea salt from the feed store by the 20 lb bag. I've also used this method for deer hides and antelope hides, although I will admit the deer hides haven't turned out exactly the way I wanted. Not enough hides to experiment on. The hardest part of the whole process is softening the hides, demands lots of physical long term hard work. The bigger the hide, the work involved goes up exponentially. I would not recommend using laboratory acid, battery acid is weak enough to not present a clear and high level of danger, but you do want to be careful, splash some on your clothes and they get eaten up and do keep it off your skin. 

I hope this experience is helpful


----------



## Lilith (Dec 29, 2012)

Murph, Defo helpfull! I didn't realize that pickling and tanning were considered two different processes, but it makes sense. I have always thought the whole thing was just called tanning. So, I guess that under this new terminology, I oil tan so heavily that it becomes all but waterproof with a battery acid pickle.


----------



## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Surely someone has invented a machine to do all that "softening"!!


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

motdaugrnds,

The professional tanners, particularly for the trophy hunters, have all kinds of automated equipment. They also use very harsh chemicals for their processes. From what I understand chromium tanning is the norm, much faster process. Using tannin solutions (called bark tanning) takes months normally to tan a large hide. 

Lilith, 

I didn't realize there was a difference either until I did a whole bunch of research on it. Tanning sets the hide so it's not so affected by water. 
Generally, anything done to a hide falls under the title of tanning. Also, if you try and mix the actual tanning methods you will often get very unpredictable results. For instance, after softening a hide, I added a bunch of oils to the hide, effectively oil tanning it. Then I later tried to smoke tan the hide. which was a disaster. Had to toss out the 2 hides I experimented with this way. 

As I understand the process, almost any acid solution will work for pickling, including urine. During these processes, you are trying to literally change the internal structure of the hide permanently for different uses. Saddle leather is done different than leather for clothing which is done different than leather for....... take your pick. I have read of using kerosene for tanning small animal hides, haven't tried it yet. Then there is egg tanning. I was amazed at the huge amount of different ways of treating/tanning hides. When the weather warms up a bit so it's not so miserable working outside, I plan to try one hide, tanning with dog poo. I understand that it contains enzymes that will permanently loosen the binding within the hide. I'll let you know what happens, it may be a process that I try only once. lol. 

I wanted to try alum tanning but failed miserably finding a source for amounts larger than a small box in the drug store. Plus, it appears to be quite a bit more expensive then battery acid. 

I also found that the material I use for smoke tanning gives different results, mostly in the end color of the hide. Dry corn cobs end up with a slightly more reddish color. Pine tree bark gives a dark brown. I've had dry pine cones end up with just a slightly grey color. 

My conclusion to this whole thing about tanning hides is that it is more an art than a science. Different hides can give completely different results under identical conditions. 

View attachment 2680


Hmm photo of rabbit skin blanket, not quite finished. Hope that came through. If not I'll try another way.


----------



## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

So then, after the pickling, peeling and breaking, you let it dry, gather dry plants, make a little fire and put the hides above it[skin to smoke]?
No one ever mentions that part. 
Is the fire like a grill, mainly just smoldering? How long do you smoke them for?


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

secuono,

I smoke the hides until they have changed color (usually some amount or darkness of brown) and handle them for feel. I did a bunch of experimenting with different materials to create smoke. I haven't reached a conclusion yet on what is best. I do like dry pine tree bark a lot though. Yes, small fire that smolders only. I found it is best to limit air intake to the fire, so I made a sheet metal crude as hell sheet metal pot with vents in the top to exit the smoke and where I can radically limit the air intake. I suspend the hides on a hardware wire screen on a frame allowing me to do around 5-6 hides at a time and it is about 8"-12" above the pot. You must be very careful of "flame up" where too much air gets in and you get a large flame instead of smoke, you will burn or outright damage the hides beyond usefulness. I haven't come across a very small wood tent heater lately that I can use that will have better control of the air source. That would be ideal for smoking for small or large hides. So far, I have found it takes around 2+ hours to smoke the 6 hides on a rack, although the big problem is concentrating the smoke. With my present system, any breeze at all disperses the smoke. Large hides make that easier because you can tent them over the smoke. It's the concentration of the smoke carrying the tannin and how forcefully it is pressed against the hide that determines how long it takes to finish the process. 

As for letting them dry, I work the hides to break the bonding until they are dry. Now here is a special note on that. I seldom have a block of time sufficient to work them until they are absolutely dry, so, I will work them for a while and then lay them flat on a bench stacked hair side to hair side with a plastic sheet under and folded over them so they don't dry out too fast and become hard. That way, whenever I have time, I can work on them. Generally, I have found that they have to be worked (broken) until they are dry. 

As I have mentioned before on this forum, preparing hides for uses impresses me as more of an art than a science. The thickness of the hide, the age of the animal when it was skinned and the time of year all make a difference in variations of what you do and for how long. 

By the way, the smoke tanning is the Indian method of preserving hides although other societies in the word may have used it too since it works. Keeps bugs out of the hide too.


----------



## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

Thanks, Murph.
All I have easy access to is sycamore branches, seed pods from sycamore and leaves of all sorts of trees. Maybe I'll experiment with those in the Spring. 
So far, I've pulled most of my rabbits after the first bath. Have 3 adult hides that are giving me trouble, plus, my fingers are killing me after 8 hides. Can't wait to have them all in their last bath and then breaking them.


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Secuono,

Where I live there is no Sycamore trees, so can't comment on using that. I suspect the bark would be the best for a smoking. Where I live there is over a foot of snow on the ground and zero temps at night. I'll not be doing any hide smoking till spring either. 

Older animals have thicker hide and the thin film has much better attachment to muscles and the underlying skin. Makes it much more difficult to work with for sure. Butcher some rabbits at 12-16 weeks and notice the difference in working with the hides. Your sore fingers is why I keep batches to work with to 5 larger hides or 6 with some smaller ones. One guide that seems to be fairly accurate for me is on the final soak, cut off small piece of the hide after at least a week and put it in boiling water, If it curls, it needs to soak longer. It also pays to have all the hides very similar in age of the rabbit to soak. Older rabbits have thicker hides and take more time in the pickle. In my last batch, I had one hide that must have been from a 5 year old bunny. It is almost as thick as a fresh deer hide and has taken a lot more time to work with than the other hides. LOL Almost thick enough for moccasin soles.


----------



## Lilith (Dec 29, 2012)

So, I am wondering, is it worth putting a non prime hide in my meat smoker to experiment? I've never used smoke for tanning so it would be a neat alternative to the oils, saddle soaps, and fats I have used before. If I could use an electric smoker to smoke tan with, it would still be pretty feasible in the winter time. 

My aversion to curing with Alum is if the hide gets wet in warm conditions later; the hair will slip and the hide will basically fall apart no matter what kind of tanning methods you use. This is the main reason I went to a battery acid pickle. 

For leathers that I expect to get wet on a regular basis, I have found that a combination of battery acid pickle and breaking while working in clean rendered bear fat is my personal fav. As long as I keep the leathers treated with bear fat over the years, it seems to stay pretty water proof - even tho I have been known to wade through a mud puddle or two.


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

LILITH,

I sure wouldn't recommend putting a hide in a smoker unless it is with the hair off. You can't believe how long the hair will hold and immense amount of residue of smoke. Now here is what I learned. Not every hide that I smoked was impervious to water hardening. I don't know why yet. Another thing to figure out. I suspect it has to do with leaving the hide in the second pickling solution long enough but haven't got data to support it yet. We have a smoker/jerky outfit and tried small hides it it (not enough rack size for larger hides. The hair was really bad about holding the smoke. And, if for whatever reason if you wash it with shampoo or something, it potentially could get really hard then you have to start over on the softening cycle. What I haven't tried but once, is using the waterless shampoo for pets and for bed ridden folks. It worked on the one hide I tried it on. 

And by the way, we make smoked jerky out of a lot of our rabbits. Wife has a recipe for a marinade she made up using Thia sauces and we really like the combination. 

Yup, your doing oil tanning for sure. Where in the world did you find bear fat. LOL I killed a bear around 20 years ago, rendered out the fat and still have some, it hasn't turned rancid. Has a lot of other uses too. Have you tried Mink oil? I found that works well too and may be more available than bear fat. I also tried Neatsfoot oil, not real happy with the results. Also tried mineral oil, worked ok but was leached out of the hide quite easily. 

That is really interesting about slipping of the hair after curing with alum. Hadn't heard that complaint. What I have heard on one forum a year or so ago was a fellow that talked about using the battery acid and his hides turned to dust on him. I presume he didn't neutralize the acid after his last soaking. Baking soda works well I've found. To the present, I have not had a hide turn to dust and disintegrate on me over time. That picture is of the not quite finished blanket my wife and I made over a year ago. No problems with the hides so far. Procrastination is the reason it isn't finished yet. 

I came across a very interesting actual scientific study concerning the heat retention of rabbit hides. They compared them to the best made of sleeping bags, synthetic cold weather gear and synthetic blankets. The rabbit skin beat them all out, somewhat heavier, but much better heat retention. I can't re-find the web site again, I may have it stored on another hard drive. If I come across it, I will post it on this forum. I know that blanket we made, which is not lined by the way, is much warmer than 2 of any other quilts or blankets we have on the bed. 

I really appreciate folks sharing information concerning their working with hides. Neat forum.


----------



## Lilith (Dec 29, 2012)

Where do I get Bear fat? Um, I live in Idaho ... Because I rate bear meat in the top 3, It is one of the animals we actively hunt every year. Let me tell ya, there is no better water proofing for leather boots than a nice thick coating of bear fat! This is why we hunt them in the fall rather than the spring.
I have tried mink oil, but imo, it smells funny. Neatsfoot oil is my go to off the shelf solution as I also use this on my saddles and often have it on hand. Using bear fat on a saddle could become a slippery situation lol. I am really happy with the Neatsfoot oil as long as I keep the hide warm until the oil is completely absorbed and avoid massive water contact. Never even thought of mineral oil ....

I think you are right about not getting the acid out. I actually use the really cheap suave shampoo to accomplish this. Your idea about a rabbit skin sleeping bag sounds really cool! I don't deal with rabbits, but a rabbit sleeping bag sounds comfy!


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

I'm about ready to got back to tossing the hides with the guts and letting the coyotes deal with them.


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Macybaby,

LOL, if the hides were dry and in good shape, I'd be willing to pay shipping to get them to me. I appeal to all the other folks in my area that raise rabbits that I want the hides. So far, I've gotten around 200 of them over time beside my own hides. It takes a lot of hides to make anything substantial. My big thing is blankets. 

Lilith, 

Tried tanning bear hides yet? Late fall early winter bears have tremendous coats. I live in N. central Oregon, not many bears around here, not much for them to eat. It is so cool you have ready access to bear grease. Great stuff. Deer and elk predominate. Some mountain lions. I'd love to get a-hold of one of those big cat hides. In the 70's I was living in Michigan. I checked in on a used stuff shop one day and they had a whole rack of buffalo robes for sale for $30 each around 30 of them. I was stone broke at the time, went home and sold a few things and went back a couple weeks later and they were all gone. The robes were around 6 ft. tall with a 8" collar and sleeves long enough to cover the hands. Beautiful. Kicked myself for months over losing that deal. That is the advantage of having some bucks around to take advantage of deals that you run across.


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

Murph - this is my first attempt with hides. I've got 6 soaking in Alum/salt pickle now that should be ready to attempt to stretch later this week. I have no idea if I'm doing things correctly or not.

The rest I have are in the freezer, and I have enough Alum to process them so I will probably do that.

I'm going to stop raising rabbits, so after the current crop get butchered, I won't be having more hides. I'm attempting to match my production with our actual consumption. 

I was thinking if I got good with the rabbits I might attempt a deer hide. Have no idea what I'd use the leather for. I don't have a lot of time for hobbies, so I'm thinking I'd rather get good at making cheese and forget about hides. I know what I'd use cheese for


----------



## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

Yea, the adult hides are impossible for me to separate the hide and top layer. 
But, none of it is film, there's a solid layer with a stringy meatlike layer right under and that slim on top. The three come off easily on younger pelts, but the adults will not come off. I tossed them into the bucket with the others that are on their final bath. No idea if it will help or if I'll have to just get over it. 

Young blue pelts ready for second bath.









Freshly being peeled, adult white pelt.









Comparison of peeled and not, white adults.









Closeup of layers. The peel can come off with the streaky 'meat' or end up leaving sections behind. The left behind strands are annoying to get off, takes forever. 
You can see the bottom half came off together, then in the center, the strings decided to stay behind.


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Secouno,

You will get no argument from me about the difficulty of working with fully adult rabbit hides. I suspect that this is true of all if not most animal hides. However, if successful in working them, they will be thicker, which means that they have uses that the thinner hides don't have. 

One of the techniques I use for that is to let the hides get pretty close to dry and then sand the devil out of them with 80 grit sandpaper. I will also use a wire wheel on a drill to do the same, in which case the hides do not need to be as dry as with sandpaper. I've saved a multitude of very much older rabbit hides this way. 

I have a few rabbit hides that actually are thick enough to make moccasin soles out of them. Not for heavy duty wear, but around the house wear. Can also be used to make fur hats because they can be formed into shape and will hold that shape. 

I'm not currently working any hides that fall into this kind of category. Next time I am working some I'll try to remember to take some photos of the progress. 

Another thing to keep in mind is that summer butchered hides have a tendency to be thicker hides and less actual pelt, while butchered hides in the winter tend to have thinner hides and much thicker pelts. At least that is my rule of thumb on that.


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

secuono,

Good photos of hides in process. I went out to the shop and took a few too.

View attachment 2880

Recently butchered hides salted and drying
View attachment 2881

Normal younger rabbit hide thickness
View attachment 2882

Smoke tanned thick hide
View attachment 2883

Tools for cleaning hides. Doesn't include a dull hacksaw blade that I use a lot

I tried to take photo showing thick hides but they didn't come out. They are at least twice the thickness of young rabbit hides by measurement


----------



## Lilith (Dec 29, 2012)

murph said:


> Lilith,
> 
> Tried tanning bear hides yet? Late fall early winter bears have tremendous coats.


ROTFLMFAO! Every coyote takes me about 15 hours to work. Anything larger than a coyote I send in to the tannery. When I break it down, it would cost me $150.00 to send in a bear skin. Bear skins being twice as thick and approx 4 times larger than a coyote, I would estimate 120 hours of work on a bear. This means I would be working for $1.25 an hour ... Not to toot my own horn, but I feel like my time is worth more than that. 

I do enjoy working coyotes tho, and I hate minimums at the tannery to get decent pricing.


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

mine have been soaking for a week after fleshing. I took a small chunk of the thickest hide (I had two 6 month old rabbits) and boiled it. It shrunk up and then pulled into peices when I tried to stretch it, so I guess that means they are not ready yet. 

Which is OK - I'll have more time to deal with them by the weekend. I think tomorrow I'll check one of the small hides (4 month old rabbits) and see how that goes.


----------



## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

Is it possible to just leave those layers on? If I can't get them off tonight, I really don't want to bother with them anymore. 
How will they end up, just more stiff?


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

secuono,

My experience is, if you don't take off those layers, the hide will never dry flexible. I have at times not bothered to insure the edges of hide were completely clean and those edges come out like a board. It kinda of depends on whether you are intent on having the total hide usable.


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

It's been a few more days and I still don't think my hides are ready. I put a few small pieces in boiling water - much better than last time but they still seem to change too much. 

The room I've got them in isn't real warm - so I expect this will take longer. I put them in the pickle for two days, then took them out and fleshed them, then put them back in and they've been in there for 9 more days.


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Macybaby,

6 month old rabbits are going to have relatively very thick hides. After the first soaking and cleaning the hides, I have left them for as long as a month in the second soaking, I sometimes even prepare a completely new soak for them and the longest I have soaked them was 8 weeks till they passed the boiling water test. The hides are so thick that I think they just take a long time in solution. Keep in mind most meat rabbits are butchered at 12-16 weeks and you are talking about 24 week old rabbits. Around twice as old and well beyond the kiddy stage. The meat will be tougher and the hide thicker and harder to work with. Here is some figures for you. At 16 weeks old, most of my hides tanned measure around .015"-.020" thick. Completely adult rabbits (6mo or older) after tanning measure around .050" thick. I've got one right now that I am pretty close to finishing and it currently measures .065" thick. These measurements I take at the top of the neck center, pretty much the thickest part of the hide. The deer hides I am currently working on aren't that thick. If they are too thick and stiff for what you want them for, sand or scrape them thinner.


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Macbaby,

According to some articles I've read concerning rabbit hides and acid tanning (soaking) you could leave them in the second solution for a very long time without damaging them, one article said a year. The temp for the container makes a difference too. Around 70 degrees is considered optimal according to what I've read. At 80 degrees, you start getting bacterial breakdown of the hide, even with a heavy salt solution along with the acid. Much below 70 degrees and the process is slowed down a lot. 

I remember when I first started this. I did a lot of cussing when thing didn't work the way I figured they should. I ended up throwing away some hides because I didn't have it right. That was over 200 hides ago. I've tried tanning some hides given to me that were butchered so young that when I started cleaning them they were so thin they just tore up. I've had some that were very pretty hides that tore when I was working them. Those I stitch up with dental floss to have a big enough area of good hide to work with. Has to be stitched up while the hide is still damp so when You work them the hide is not wrinkled or bunched up. It mostly depends on what you intend to use the hide for. 

If you anticipate making things with the hides, don't give up on it. It's a fairly long process but when you get yourself a stack of 20-50 completely done hides, it is impressive when you lay them all out and there is a whole variety of useful things you can make out of them. The making is much easier than the tanning. lol.


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Lilith,

I was only half joking about the bear hide. Got to admit that I don't have a set up or indoor room enough to work that large a hide either and it would be a tremendous amount of work. I'm scared to death that some friend will give me an elk hide. I simply cannot work a hide that big. If the skinning job was done well I'd be very tempted to send it to the local tannery, although they charge more than $150 for that size hide, or at least the last time I checked with them around 5 years ago. Got to admit I would love to make a light jacket out of an elk hide. Probably last forever. At the worst case, elk hide is thick enough to make boot soles out of, or a good pair of mocs.


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Today I worked on some hides. Thought I'd show my steps and tools 


View attachment 3044

5 smaller hides done in about 1 1/2 hours
View attachment 3045


Old rabbit, thick heavy hide. Been soaking for over a month and is still a lot of work. Ended up putting back into a fresh solution of salt and acid to try again later.

View attachment 3046

About 1/2 of the hides I cleaned with a dull hack saw blade 
View attachment 3047


5 hides cleaned, peeled and showing the pile of peelings above the hides.

Wife decided to work on the blanket today also. Hope to have it done this coming week.


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

I've got three I took out of the pickle yesterday - they are getting dry enough to stretch. I think I might end up with something OK - but I'm learning that I don't care for doing this. Fun to try things though.


----------



## Lilith (Dec 29, 2012)

Macy, don't give up on it. Its way worth the effort you put into it. 

Murph, here is a price guide for the tannery I use. 
http://www.furtanning.com/tanning-price.htm

They are kinda local to me (I could drive there in a 3 hours if I wanted to) do a good job, and have not lost any of my hides. Plus, their prices are pretty reasonable. (I figured the bear price at a 6 ft tall bear, average for here.)


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

two of the three seem pretty good - I've rewet and am restretching the third. It dried the fastest and didn't get as much work. I'll be taking the other three out of the pickle tonight and see how they go. Have to time it right so I'll be teleworking when they need to be stretched. People at work might not understand if I brought them in to work with me.

What should they feel like when they are done? I really don't know if they have turned out OK or not. Should they be real supple? Maybe I didn't stretch them enough while they were drying.


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

Here is the end result. I've got 6 more started in the brine, and will start another batch in about 4 days. I've got about 15 more in the freezer to deal with.


----------



## Lilith (Dec 29, 2012)

Thoes are really pretty Macy. what do you plan to do with them once tanned?


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Well, I finally did it. I put some money into a tanning kit, bought the Lutan-F tanning stuff. Going through it somewhat took me back. It was not advertised as oil tanning but that is what it is. I thought I was getting something other than oil tanning. hmmm. Do I send it back or try it out anyway. I have a cleaned salted deer hide I can try it on and see what I get. Maybe try it out on a rabbit hide too. 

The directions for its use is no different from what I have been doing, just ends up an oil tan rather than a smoke tan. 

I'll post what I come out with when I can get around to trying it.


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

I've got a second and third batch of rabbit skins going now. I fleshed out the first group today, and it way better. I let them go three days instead of two and they came off much nicer. This time of year, room temperature is around 60, so maybe that means it just takes a bit longer to work.

I started the second batch today, and when they get fleshed I'll start a third bucket. I'm doing 6 -7 at a time. That will take care of everything in the freezer. Butchered the buck today - broken tri-color with rex fur, should be a very nice pelt. Will butcher the younger rabbits in about 6 weeks. Doe may be pregnant, so I'll keep her around until I know for sure - if she is, that will be my last litter. 

I'm going to can up this rabbit meat - with what I have in the freezer and canned, I think I'll be eating rabbit for three years after I stop raising them.


----------



## Lilith (Dec 29, 2012)

LOL Macy, I have eaten a lot of different meats. I also have some strange preferences because of the opportunities I have had. However, I have never tried rabbit. They say that there is very little nutrition in rabbit by it's self except proteins. You have to mix rabbit meat with LOTS of veggies to get your daily requirements. So, good luck on 3 years worth of rabbit meat. 

Murph, sorry to hear that your new kit is oil tanning. it always stinks to think you are getting something you aren't.


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

Lilith - it is only three years worth because we rarely eat it. 25 chickens will last us two years also.

DH and I already eat a lot of veggies (I have a big garden). I do love a rabbit cooked in the smoker, but I don't do that much in the winter.


----------



## Lilith (Dec 29, 2012)

How embarrassing, Re-reading that post after a few days, it sounds sarcastic and snide. I apologize for that. I didn't mean it that way. I meant it more as in: I hope your 3 years worth of rabbit meat goes into lots of yummy stews and nice veggie meat / mixed dishes. I would love to try it someday. I'm pretty sure that its nice to have enough of one type of meat to last you several years. I won't have this situation until some of my kids move out lol. I would bet that you have some recipes for rabbit that would make my teenage son clean out your entire freezer lol. MMMM, smoked rabbit sounds fab! I love smoked meats!


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Macybaby,

Those are some handsome hides. How old were they? I generally let my first soaking go for about a week, maybe a bit more, and around 2 weeks for the second soak. What is your formula that you are using? 

We do a lot of smoke jerking of our rabbits. We probably eat 3-4 rabbits per month not counting the jerky.  We also use them for dog food. Wife makes a lot of stews and soups with them, seldom eat them fried or roasted. 

Lilith,

I have heard that you can't live on rabbit meat too. It's even mentioned in some of the novels by Louis Lamour. I suspect it's because it is so low in fat. I found that bear meat is also very low in fat. A lot of range or wild animals have very little fat in the meat. I've not seen any real good information about this. Have you seen anything in an analysis of the meat? I'd be interested in it. 

I'm in the process of getting the strips of hide ready to do an Indian style blanket. I'm using the technique found here 
http://www.primitiveways.com/rabbit_skin_blanket.html
It has less scrap than the block technique we first tried. Be interesting to see how it comes out. 

Getting past my bed time. Got to go.


----------



## Lilith (Dec 29, 2012)

I basically heard this from a local "old timer" while discussing getting into rabbits or not. I have found some information online, strangely enough, caribou also causes the same problems. You are right about bear being a very lean meat. Almost all the fat content on a bear is located between the muscles and just under the skin. I doubt that adding rabbit to your normal diet would ever cause problems, but I don't know if I would rely on it as a main source of meat. 
Here is what I found:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/lamb-veal-and-game-products/4650/2 (FDA nutritional info)
http://www.livestrong.com/article/342037-nutrition-in-rabbit-meat/ (general info about rabbit meat)

Verry cool idea for a rabbit hide blanket. Several of our scouting guru's have made these and use them on a survivalist training called Anasazi. I have made a rabbit rope to take on my first year, and should have a full blanket by my fourth year of training. After that, I can go back as a staff member. If I do get around to it, it looks like I'm going to be bartering for a whole bunch of rabbit skins and or tanned hides on this site  post pics when you get yours done!


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

Murph - most are fryers in the 14-16 week group. I work full time and don't always get to butchering when I should. The first batch also included a couple near 6 months (24 weeks) as I had held two does back thinking I might keep them. 

They are delicate hides - they tear easy. 

I used the Mother Earth article -2 gallons water, 1 cup canning salt, 1 cup alum (potassium from VanDykes) bad part about VanDykes, they ship out of a warehouse that is not far from me, but don't allow local pickup so i have to pay shipping. 

After peeling, I add another cup salt and alum and put the hides back in. I have three buckets going right now, and went to using an old ceramic plate to hold them in the water. 

I'm learning - now if they don't peel well I'll leave them another day or so. They really peeled a lot easier after three days compared to two. And plan on 10-15 days for the second soak. 

I'm hoping my doe is pregnant and I'll get one more colorful litter out of her - though then I'll be dealing with rabbits for three more months. Otherwise I'll be done in one.


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Lilith,

That was the kind of information I was looking for. Thanks for posting it. My conclusion from the information is that a diet using mostly lean meat is not good for you. I knew that before but the links provide more information as to why. That sort of shuts out the Atkins diet as a means of losing weight. 

When the weather warms up, I will put together the framework for making a rope blanket out of rabbit hides. I may have enough total hides to do it. I had written to the woman that did that project at the link I posted for Indian construction of a rabbit hide blanket. She gave me some more hints to make it easier and faster. 

I speculate about what a blanket like the first one we made and the one I am working on now would be worth on the open market. Bet I couldn't pay myself a working wage to do it. lol. Due to the tremendous amounts of hides needed for either style, I doubt I will be making more of them, that is, unless I can find a ready source of very cheap hides or free ones.


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Macybaby,

LOL My interest in your hides is still open to negotiations. That batch in your photos are very colorful. 

By the way, since you have a rabbit operation (sort of) on going, have you considered selling the meat. A couple of years ago we stopped in at a yuppy grocery store in our area and noticed that rabbit meat was going for $22/lb. I haven't checked lately so don't know if that is still true. We are raising rabbits mostly for our own use and as barter material and gifting and the hides of course, a few we have given as gifting. 

I'm still thinking about making moccasins out of the thicker hides, those around .050" thick. So many projects and so little time sigh


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

Sorry, I won't part with my hides. Have no idea what I will use them for, but I know I can't sell them for near enough to be worth the effort. I'd do better to toss them than to do all this work and sell them. 

There are several sources for rabbit and other leather online. I have an acquaintance that buys deer hide and makes moccasins and sells them on Etsy. She only makes one pair at a time, and has no problem getting big bucks for them. 

There is no market for rabbit where I live - not when people can get chicken from the Hutterites for about $2 a lb (and it is GOOD). If I lived near a major metro area, I might have a chance, but here in SD there is about no market for home grown. Those that want it grow their own, and no one thinks it's worth anything. I had people tell me $1.50 was too much for a dozen eggs - delivered. They expect to pay LESS than grocery store prices. Go figure . . .

I can't even get people to drive 10 miles to my house to pick FREE veggies - they'll take them for free if I pick them . . .

BTW - I have a very good career - I do all this other stuff for fun. If it was about money, I'd not do any of it.


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Macybaby,

I really do understand. If I was to sell tanned hides I wouldn't make enough to pay to do it. That is why we use them for ourselves. 

When our chickens were laying, we sold them as free range eggs for under the price of organic free range eggs in the grocery and more than the regular eggs. We sold them for $2.50 per dozen at the Grange market and were generally sold out in an hour or two. We were also able to sell fresh vegies from the garden when we had an excess, generally ended up giving some away also. At least here, there is a marked difference between regular eggs from the store and our eggs and folks that would pay the price loved them. 

By the way, you never said. Where did you find an outlet for Alum?


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

VanDykes Taxidermy. They have two types, and after reading I selected the Potassium. I bought the salt from the grocery store as shipping is too expensive and canning salt is easy to get.

They shipped it from Wessington Springs, which is only about 35 miles from my house. They use to allow pick-up, but they don't anymore.


----------



## Lilith (Dec 29, 2012)

LMAO Macy, I just had a brilliantly funny thought on what to do with your hides .... Quilt them in solid 10" blocks alongside denim or other leathers! if you used a rag quilt method on the denim portions, you will have a 100% unique item that your children and grand children could smile at and maybe even shake their heads about for years to come.


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

Lilith, I've been thinking the same thing - how I could put them into a quilt. I won't have enough for a full blanket (our bed is king size). Though it might be fun to crochet them together too. Cut them into 4" circles or squares . . .


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Lilith,

Sound suggestion. Combine the hides with other materials. The quilt shown earlier in this thread was mostly made with 8" square blocks, although with the larger hides, used geometrically smaller blocks also to reduce waste. I know that if we had only a certain amount of hides to work with that certainly would be a viable alternative, would be practical and might even become and heirloom.


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

My second batch is out of the pickle and drying. Got out an old portable rack I had - I think this will work much better than a line strung in the bathroom. 

As long as the cats don't get ideas . . .










I have two more batches in buckets at different stages. Both have been fleshed. I staggered them so I'll only have to deal with stretching one batch at a time. My next two batches are mostly black and black/white spotted. The first hides I saved were from a litter of all black based rabbits.


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

This might seem like a dumb question, but how should the hides feel when they are done?

I have like no experience with real fur. 

When dry, should they be stretchy or firm? How supple should they be? 

I think I may not be working them enough. I've been hanging them and start stretching them as soon as they start to break. They feel really nice on the fur side, but they don't lay flat. 

I think I may have to wet the skin down a bit and rework them. My hands are wrists are getting sore from all the pulling.


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Macybaby,

My experience and what I read on this. If the hides are stretchy, they aren't dry. All of the work I have done with hides indicates a completely dry hide has no more stretch in it. 

Also, if they have had a second soak long enough, they should be quite soft, sort of a chamois feel to them when completely dry. In a comment previous to this, I was talking about your problem with sore wrists or sore anything from working the hides, or just having a long enough block of time. The hides have to be worked right up to the point that they are dry. If they dry too fast or have not been worked enough before they are dry they will be much stiffer. If you need to take a break, pile the hides hair side to hair side and put a sheet of plastic under and over them that is big enough to lay something along the edges to keep the hides from drying out while you aren't working them I tried working 5 hides ONLY ONCE until they were completely dry without stopping. Took me 6 hours and I was exhausted. 

Also, instead of pulling the hides to stretch them, work them over a piece of hard wood that is fastened to something like a saw horse. A chair back can work too, saves on the wrists and fingers. 

Pretty simple set up. Made the board out of scrap cherry. Want close grain hard wood as a preference. If the hides are not laying flat, you let them get to dry before working them. 

I'm not sure what you are referring to concerning " I've been hanging them and start stretching them as soon as they start to break". I start stretching them when they are still damp and work them until they are dry but VERY seldom all in one sitting. Depending on how dry your air is and what the temperature is will determine how fast they will dry out of course. I tried working a batch in the sun during the summer and they dried out so fast I had to re-wet them. 

Depending on the thickness of the hides (yours appear to be full grown and therefore thicker) will be how flexible they are. The thinner the hide, the more flexible. You should notice as you stretch and work the hides that they actually get slightly bigger than the animal they came off of. You are literally stretching out the hide.  You can over work the hides and thin them so much they get very delicate. Young hides at the belly area is very susceptible to this and can tear easily. 

If the hides are not quite flexible, that means they dried out too fast OR they weren't in the solution long enough. I've worked hides until dry and they were still stiff. Back into solution for some more soaking. I currently have a bucket of hides in second soak that have been there of 2 weeks and still are not ready to work them out. I use the boiling water test. Also, keep in mind that when the hides are dry and flexible they still aren't tanned.


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

I rewet them with a damp rag (only the skin side) and started working them a bit more. 

When dry, the won't stretch, but they felt too stiff. The skin side is bright white. When rewet then they are stretchy again. 

So far I've got about 7 of the twelve that I'm happy with. They are dry, soft and supple. I'm oiling them with mink oil and that is helping to keep the very thin edges from feeling more like paper than fabric. 

So far, I've only really torn up 2 of them. Another learning experience! 

When you are done, does the whole hide lay flat? I'm finding that I can't stretch out the very back end enough so that I don't get a bit of a hump over what would have been the lower back of the rabbit. That is where I get the most tearing - right up the back side. So far I've not had problem with the tender belly area, that seems to stretch out way more than the upper sides and back, 

The MEN article said to let them dry enough so that when you stretch, you can see the hide pull and it turns white (and it doer NOT go back) . That is very evident in the softer skin, but not as evident in the heavier back side. Though it for sure turns bright white over time. 

my hides are quite a bit bigger than they were off the rabbit, especially the thinner ones. I've noticed the solid darker ones are thinner than the others, and the rex fur ones take a lot more work than the satin fur ones. I've got three noticably different fur types so far, but I guess that is what I get for having New Zealand/Rex/Satin cross rabbits!

I've got some solid black hides to work in the next batch, will be intereting to see how they are compared to the brown rabbits. The surface skin can be either black or white, and sometimes is no relation to the color of the hair.


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Macybaby,

Yup, if you wet the hides, they can be stretched again. 

When the hides have been worked and everything worked as it should, the hides should lay flat. When you have humps it can be the result of a couple problems, I've had them. I had to re-dampen the hides and work them a bit differently until dry to get rid of the humps. It' the result, I think, of unequal stretching of the hide due to differences in thickness. Try working the hide energetically over a long surface, like a saw horse after you re-wet it. 

Because you are using alum soaking, and I haven't had experience with it, I don't know if the hides have to be handled differently or not. Your soaking time is much much shorter than mine. Are you using the boiling water test to tell if it's time to start working them? I don't know if the boiling test is valid with alum. 

I have found that black haired rabbits seem to have thinner hides that other colors. It's real easy to have the hair follicles show up when cleaning them which indicates of course, very thin hide. The thickest hides I have experienced are the light brown fur, given the same age rabbit. And again, it also makes a difference whether it is summer or winter coats on them. 

I also have had a few hides that turned white when I worked them but when were completely dry parts of the hide turned back to brown and got hard, despite my working the area. I suspect it is not quite enough cleaning of the hide. That's when sand paper and/or wire brushing comes in and then re-soak them for a short period. 

You also have a lot of cross breeding and I have no idea how that would influence the actual color of the hide. I have pretty much stuck to New Zealand and Californians. I am breeding for fur color as well as meat but not for show.


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

Thanks Muph, about the time I get this figured out, I'll be done with rabbits LOL!

The MEN article says to use the boiling water test on for both the alum and battery acid test. In fact, the instructions are the same for both - just the chemicals used are different. I'm not sure if I'm doing that part right either - sometimes when I boil them, they curl and come apart very easily. When they look about the same and don't come apart when I give a pull after boiling, I've assumed that means they are ready. 

The majority of my hides are from young rabbits (12-14 weeks) and mostly late fall or winter butcher. Since both Satin and Rex were developed more for hide than meat, mabye that makes a difference. I know when I had pure New Zelands (rew), their hides were way thinner right off the rabbit, but I was not saving them back then. Never got real excited about a bunch of pure white rabbit fur. 

I want to make sure to butcher the rest of the rabbits (unless the doe kindles) before they start to shed. Figure I've got until March before that will happen. I'll know in another week for sure on the doe. 

BTW - my husband was adamant about me not using battery acid. And since he's taught HAZMET for years, I defer to him on that one. I have no idea why he was against it so can't give reasons. He told me "You are not using battery acid" and that was enough for 
me. Might only be because I'm doing it in the laundry room . . .


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Macybaby,

In a sense I agree with your husband. However, here is some information. ANY chemical that is used to change something (any chemical reaction) uses up the chemical. When I have soaked hides in the battery acid solution for some time, I can put my hands in the solution with very minimal effect. I still use gloves when handling it but most of the acid has been used up if the hides are soaked long enough. The same will be true of the Alum. Have you ever put your hands in a stiff alum solution? It tightens up the skin considerably. Has been used by fighters to toughen the skin before a fight. 

Of course, dumping these chemicals into a septic or sewage system is not a good idea. I dilute mine way down and use it for weed control over paths and driveway when it is used up. Ultraviolet from the sun and dilution from rain or snow makes it safe for the concentrations we are talking about. Now I have seen recipes for using laboratory acid. Not safe at all outside of very knowledgeable folks and proportions in its use is critical. The commercial tanning is primarily using chromium solutions. That stuff is a whole other story and can be quite negative in the impacts on the environment if not disposed of properly. That is why I didn't even consider seriously using it. 

I am quite familiar with hazmet and MSDS papers. Try reading the hazmet and MSDS papers on the common herbicides that are in prolific use. Battery acid is practically benign in comparison. 

Conclusion, Alum solutions are observably less toxic than battery acid but with observing reasonable precautions can be safely used.


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

You sure got that right about a lot of household stuff. DH is always saying most people don't have a clue -get all upset about something on the news when what they have in the cupboard is way worse.

My only point was that I'm using Alum to keep my husband happy. Sometimes we have to make those sacrifices


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Oh hell Macybaby, I'm actually happy your using alum. I am totally interested in how you use it and what the outcome is. It would have been my first choice if I had found and easy local supply. Years ago I used alum to preserve a snakeskin. 

LOL whats in the cupboard is worse. Well, I can think of a bunch of stuff that is far worse than anything I can possible purchase legally. A large amount of legal stuff is going to be pretty toxic too. But that is a whole other subject not directly attached to homesteading threads. lol. 

Hey, I'm married too. Yup, got to keep the spouse from going ballistic, hopefully. And besides, as I mentioned, he does have a legitimate concern. Acids of the type battery acid can be dangerous if handled incorrectly. Batteries themselves can be dangerous. I've been hurt by them, mostly by wearing inappropriate jewelry when working around them, like a wedding ring.


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

I think I'm happy with where the hides are now. I worked them a lot more the last two days, and now they are much softer and supple, less like cardboard. 

I'm oiling them with mink oil, I don't know it that is sort of like "tanning" or not. The more I read, the more it seems like a lot of important information is left out. Probably things that are so "obvious" to the people that have been doing this long term, they don't even mention it.


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

OK Your oil tanning with mink oil. 

I very much agree with you about skills and DIY instructions. Very often, some details left out that can be critical to ending up with what you wanted. I've run into that on multiple occasions. That link I put up on making an Indian style fur blanket is an example. It wasn't until I made contact with one of the authors of that instruction that I found out what I really needed to do. 

I have written instructions for certain skill sets that I was engaged in for 20 years, pretty much knew what I was talking about. And yet, had people repeatedly ask for certain details that I assumed were self evident. Now, does that mean that the author left out key information or that the one learning the skill has no imagination or is not thinking critically? New skills are always going to be a learning curve and asking for more information will shorten the learning curve and also, hopefully, eliminate the mistakes you might otherwise make and have to start over. 

Another problem is with the person talking about how to do a certain skill. There is a tendency to want to retain a position of authority, and if too many folks jump on a skill set, they may figure out how to do it faster/better which takes away the position of authority. Then, there is also the money side of it. If inadequate information is given out in the beginning and a person fails at the skill, there are classes, of course, that you can sign up for that usually cost an appreciable amount of money to fill in the gaps deliberately left out. I've run into this also on multiple occasions. 

It sort of comes down to how bad a person wants to get really good at some skill. The European apprentice program filled this need. We used to have a similar kinds of program here but it has largely gone away, few example are left. What has taken the place of apprentice programs is formal schooling at exorbitant amounts of money that leave the student forever in debt. I cringe at the idea that this will happen wholesale with traditional or primitive skill sets. It has started but not gained in large popularity. 

In our present case, our local taxidermist has classes on tanning hides. I talked with him about it and it focused on presenting animal heads for wall mounting that is an an antithesis to my value system. And while I could have perhaps bypassed mistakes by taking the course, I opted instead to spend the time reading books and the internet on the subject to figure it out without paying the rather large sum of money he wanted for the class. I figure that it all depends on how much money one wants to spend learning a skill as opposed to self learning and the inevitable mistakes that go with that.


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

Batch #3 is out of the pickle and hanging to dry. The skin from the older buck wasn't ready I I put that in the other batch I have going. The remaining 6 are from young rabbits and they tested ready. 

I'm going to work these a bit differently - set up a board or something to pull them over and see how that goes. I think the rubbing (not just the stretching) against the non-hair side gives it a different feel. ​


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

Macybaby,
I have never tried to soften a skin by just pulling on it to stretch it. I've always worked them over a board. I started out using just a saw horse, then made a board with the pointy edge to work the hides as shown in the photos. I would make some different configured ones but don't have easy access to chunks of hardwood to do it and for small hides, the two I made work just fine. I suspect that the board will make the hides softer because of the fiber breaking over a pointed edge. I'm going to be interested in what your observations are. 

Here is a photo of my present project making a rabbit hide blanket in an Indian style


----------



## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

I'm stretching them over the back of a folding chair. It's about a 1" diameter pipe. This seems to be making the hide a lot smoother on the inside. Maybe I'll wet down the other ones and work them over it some too.


----------



## murph (Jan 10, 2013)

View attachment 4912

finally finished block style blanket and is lined
View attachment 4913

work in progress on Indian style blanket


----------

