# Unvaccinated Oregon Boy Contracted Tetanus, Racked Up Over $800,000 in Medical Bills



## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

*An unvaccinated Oregon boy became the first person in over 30 years to contract the deadly tetanus infection in the state. The 6-year-old boy was playing on a farm when he cut his head, according to a 2017 case report by the CDC. His parents cleaned and stitched the wound at home, but a week later, he arrived at a hospital exhibiting advanced symptoms of tetanus, a serious bacterial infection that causes involuntary muscle spasms, difficulty breathing, lockjaw, and arching of the neck and back. Doctors inserted a tube in his windpipe, treated him with neuromuscular-blocking drugs, and placed him in a dark room with ear plugs to help reduce his spasms. Despite their best efforts, the arching of the boy’s neck and back worsened, and he was kept in an intensive care unit for over a month until he could be moved to a rehabilitation center. In total, the boy’s medical charges amounted to $811,929. *

“The complex and prolonged care led to the high treatment cost,” said Judith Guzman-Cottrill, an author of the report and a pediatrics professor at Oregon Health & Science University. In contrast, the cost of one tetanus vaccination is $24-$30 a dose. Since the vaccination, tetanus has become extremely rare. Doctors counseled the boy’s family to bring the child up to date on all of his vaccinations, but they still declined them. “Despite extensive review of the risks and benefits of tetanus vaccination by physicians, the family declined the second dose of DTaP and any other recommended immunizations,” the CDC report stated.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/unvacc...-medical-bills


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I read about this poor kid, the article indicated he will have residual problems for the rest of his life.

The family still refuses to vaccinate.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

Maybe with time to reflect on the situation the family will decide on vaccinations.
Who pays the 800,000? insurance ?


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Irish Pixie said:


> I read about this poor kid, the article indicated he will have residual problems for the rest of his life.
> 
> The family still refuses to vaccinate.[/
> Years ago in Ca. a lady across the street from us would not go to doctor with and got real bad sick. Her husband would not take her to the doctor because they were (7 day something church) They did not believe in going to doctor. Someone reported her case to the state of Ca. They sent the police to the house and broke in and took the lady to the doctor and saved her life. Some people is just to stupid to know any better.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

As long as they are willing to pay the bills it seems like it’s their choice.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

I can't get over that they first stitched him up themselves. 

I remember simply removing a splinter from one of my kids that was quite the experience.

I just can't imagine watching my child go through everything this child did and not doing everything in my power to prevent it from ever happening again.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

poor baby!


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

Maybe if we still used debtors prison instead of insolvency courts.
I agree people should be allowed to make their own choices. If you choose not to vaccinate your children you better have enough insurance to cover events like this boy's.
Same topic different story a mother in Vancouver has had 45,000 signatures, on a petition, in the last month to force parents to keep UN-vaccinated children out of the public school system.
Freedom ,it's always a balancing act. Where does your freedom end and where does mine start.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Does that Vancouver mom have a unvaccinated child herself ?


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

No and she said she has children in the public school system.


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## crehberg (Mar 16, 2008)

ydderf said:


> Maybe if we still used debtors prison instead of insolvency courts.
> I agree people should be allowed to make their own choices. If you choose not to vaccinate your children you better have enough insurance to cover events like this boy's.
> Same topic different story a mother in Vancouver has had 45,000 signatures, on a petition, in the last month to force parents to keep UN-vaccinated children out of the public school system.
> Freedom ,it's always a balancing act. Where does your freedom end and where does mine start.


I'll agree with most of what you said... except for the deal about debtors prison. There was a very good reason to not have such things here....and we've already got enough issues to deal with.

Freedom is definitely a tricky subject...to those who much is given...much is also expected...


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

ydderf said:


> No and she said she has children in the public school system.


If her children are vaccinated why does she care ?


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

The schools should not need to spend time watching kids to see how sick they may or may not be. The schools should concentrate on teaching. The sick kids go home to recover from whatever the preventable disease was should the teacher go back and reteach lessons the sick child missed. Then next month it might be whooping cough that is caught by an unvaccinated child do we again repeat lessons for the sick child when he/she returns to class?


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> If her children are vaccinated why does she care ?


https://vancouversun.com/health/loc...lls-for-mandatory-vaccinations-in-b-c-schools

Clunn, who is pregnant with her third child, says she launched the petition not just out of concern for her own children but also on behalf of all the vulnerable children and adults with health concerns.

“If your child is going through chemo, you should know how many kids haven’t been vaccinated,” she said Thursday. “Four year olds with leukaemia shouldn’t be scared to visit their friends at school.”


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> If her children are vaccinated why does she care ?


Because she may have younger children or elderly relatives at home who could be exposed.
This is really just common sense logic.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

There are an increasing number of village idiots in this country. Parents so stupid that they subject their children to the risks of the 16th century. To make that worse, the most of them were raised by parents who provided them with the vaccinations that kept them from getting the diseases their children are now exposed to. These idiots should be charged with child endangerment.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Oxankle said:


> There are an increasing number of village idiots in this country. Parents so stupid that they subject their children to the risks of the 16th century. To make that worse, the most of them were raised by parents who provided them with the vaccinations that kept them from getting the diseases their children are now exposed to. These idiots should be charged with child endangerment.


In 1945 smallpox. In NY and other places some people did not get the shot. Many people died. 

In our small county all the kids got their shot at school. They were told all people had to have the shot. Government orders.  We got our shot at school by people that came to the small school in S.E. Mo. Everyone had the vaccinations. Back then the schools took care of a lot of health needs. Not enough doctors to do the job and most people didn't have a way to go to a doctor.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Same here with smallpox; Dr and Nurse came to school, scratched us all on the shoulder.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

doozie said:


> I can't get over that they first stitched him up themselves.
> 
> I remember simply removing a splinter from one of my kids that was quite the experience.
> 
> I just can't imagine watching my child go through everything this child did and not doing everything in my power to prevent it from ever happening again.


When my 4 year old needed stitches in his forehead they put him on a pappoose (sp) board to keep him still. How they do it at home. I wonder too what insurance they had. And how is this not child neglect.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Kids play stuff happens the only thing worse is parents that never let anything happen to the kids
Now that’s abuse !


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

Yes stuff happens, but sewing up your kids head wound at home obviously without adequate cleanliness. Give your head a shake it's time the hospital phoned child protective services.


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## StarSchoolFarm (Nov 29, 2013)

Tetanus shots are terrible. That being said…my father use to sew us up at the kitchen table, both straight and curve needles. Mind you, he’s a doctor. Now it’s crazy glue for cuts…


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## TxHorseMom (Feb 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> As long as they are willing to pay the bills it seems like it’s their choice.


Really??? Their choice?? What about the child’s choice not to almost die from something preventable?? What about the child’s choice to not suffer horribly?? A person can do what they want (or not want) to their own bodies, and suffer the consequences. But to do this to their own child, then not even learn from it is abuse IMO.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

TxHorseMom said:


> Really??? Their choice?? What about the child’s choice not to almost die from something preventable?? What about the child’s choice to not suffer horribly?? A person can do what they want (or not want) to their own bodies, and suffer the consequences. But to do this to their own child, then not even learn from it is abuse IMO.


 It’s not the way I raised my child
And it’s not something I advocate but it is a truth that I recognize. 
I think a whole Lotta things are all mixed up in those. For instance to vaccinate or not to vaccinate. 
 People die from vaccinations people die from not being vaccinated in this country the parents still have the choice that’s the way it is. 
I know parents that have cut pieces off of their children’s bodies ,drove a needle into their bodies thousands of times and cut holes into their bodies. all these things can be done to a minor child it’s the way it is in the USA. 
Parents are allowed to make a lot of choices for their children. I understand that’s not the way it is in Russia and China . Do you really wanna live there ?
But I would be interested in hearing what rule you would propose that would solve the problem?


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## TxHorseMom (Feb 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> It’s not the way I raised my child
> And it’s not something I advocate but it is a truth that I recognize.
> I think a whole Lotta things are all mixed up in those. For instance to vaccinate or not to vaccinate.
> People die from vaccinations people die from not being vaccinated in this country the parents still have the choice that’s the way it is.
> ...


More people die from being unvaccinated than the very, very few who do.

Just because a sick (b word I won’t say) tortures their child doesn’t mean it’s ok. It’s sick and it’s wrong. And no, it’s not allowed in the USA. Your child(ren) can be taken from you and you can go to jail. (And should). That is NOT a choice. 

Honestly? I think vaccines should be mandatory for all with the exception of medical reasons.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I'm in the freedom corner on this one. Everyone knows it's foolish to not vaccinate their kids but stupid isn't a crime. Nor should it be.


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## happy hermits (Jan 2, 2018)

I strongly agree with forcast how are they not up on charges. The poor child what other decisions is this child going to have to pay for.


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

I cam agree with YH it is the parents right to not vaccinate. One requirement should be met by the parents of unvaccinated children proof of financial responsibility. It can be insurance or property or whatever so long as it is enough to cover up to $500,00.00 in case the child needs medical care.


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## DisasterCupcake (Jan 3, 2015)

Oxankle said:


> There are an increasing number of village idiots in this country. Parents so stupid that they subject their children to the risks of the 16th century. To make that worse, the most of them were raised by parents who provided them with the vaccinations that kept them from getting the diseases their children are now exposed to. These idiots should be charged with child endangerment.


The 16th century presented risks that are unimaginable to society today in America, let alone possible. 
Parents today were subjected to a select few of the vaccinations that are mandated to today's children. Even then, the TDP vaccine was deemed too dangerous, and was the main incentive to remove liability from vaccine manufacturers. The TDaP and DTaP vaccines are definitely safer, but less effective. It seems that the perfect intersection of safety and effectiveness has not yet been found, as the new vaccines do not prevent infection from their targeted disease.
Unless vaccination status is known, these cases are rarely publicized. This is a propaganda piece.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Has anyone else noticed that people will do things they believe will help their child's health like get a vaccine or don't get a vaccine. Then they go to the store and buy cokes and donuts to give to them?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

DisasterCupcake said:


> The 16th century presented risks that are unimaginable to society today in America, let alone possible.
> Parents today were subjected to a select few of the vaccinations that are mandated to today's children. Even then, the TDP vaccine was deemed too dangerous, and was the main incentive to remove liability from vaccine manufacturers. The TDaP and DTaP vaccines are definitely safer, but less effective. It seems that the perfect intersection of safety and effectiveness has not yet been found, as the new vaccines do not prevent infection from their targeted disease.
> Unless vaccination status is known, these cases are rarely publicized. This is a propaganda piece.


I believe that this is entirely opinion, one that I do not share. 

It's definitely not a propaganda piece, the boy wasn't vaccinated with tetanus antitoxin, despite being told multiple times it would help. That's fact.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I'm in the freedom corner on this one. Everyone knows it's foolish to not vaccinate their kids but stupid isn't a crime. Nor should it be.


In Michigan, there are deer that spread tuberculosis to cattle. So, the State does annual TB tests. But in the realm of freedom, a cattle farmer can refuse. They don't have to let the State Veterinarian TB test their cattle.
They refuse and the herd is put on a quarantine. Cattle can't leave the farm. You want to sell them, you get them tested, first.

If your horse fails a Coggins test, the horse gets euthanized. If you don't want that, the horse is quarantined and must remain inside, with no other horses within 1/4 mile.

So, to me, it makes sense, if you don't want your children vaccinated, you have that right. But to protect society, unvaccinated children should be quarantined, at home.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

haypoint said:


> In Michigan, there are deer that spread tuberculosis to cattle. So, the State does annual TB tests. But in the realm of freedom, a cattle farmer can refuse. They don't have to let the State Veterinarian TB test their cattle.
> They refuse and the herd is put on a quarantine. Cattle can't leave the farm. You want to sell them, you get them tested, first.
> 
> If your horse fails a Coggins test, the horse gets euthanized. If you don't want that, the horse is quarantined and must remain inside, with no other horses within 1/4 mile.
> ...


Interesting viewpoint to say the least. But I don't regard children as being the same as cattle. Cattle are usually much nicer and less stressful than kids.


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

800.000 dollar bill for treating an bacteria out brake in a kid is beyond any moral...
This hospital should be ashamed to even come up with such price tag
No wonder why this health system here is so lost...
With no regulated treatment costs, they can just ask what they like.
You can think of regulations what you like, but in some places they are needed...no one would argue speed limits, voting age, drinking age...all stuff the government forces on you, but medical treatment? not controlled...you can go to 10 different places and probably get 10 different price tags...not that doctors dont deserve a good payment, but...seriously...
You really have to let that settle...
Almost a billion for a plus or minus half gallon of antibiotics, a few gallons of saline solution, a few weeks in a air tight separated bed and a few people looking at you once in while.
Funny that everyone squeals about the vaccination...or the not done one...
What a messed up system...


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Meinecke said:


> 800.000 dollar bill for treating an bacteria out brake in a kid is beyond any moral...
> This hospital should be ashamed to even come up with such price tag
> No wonder why this health system here is so lost...
> With no regulated treatment costs, they can just ask what they like.
> ...


I get it, but either your spelling or your math skills need some work. Million is spelled with an m not b. Eight hundred thousand lacks a fair amount of being a million, and a thousand times more of being a billion.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Their are some in the population that cannot safely be vaccinated. So they are relying on those around them being vaccinated to help lower the risk of becoming ill. When you start having larger numbers of people opt out then those that cannot be vaccinated are at a much greater risk.


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## DisasterCupcake (Jan 3, 2015)

Redlands Okie said:


> Their are some in the population that cannot safely be vaccinated. So they are relying on those around them being vaccinated to help lower the risk of becoming ill. When you start having larger numbers of people opt out then those that cannot be vaccinated are at a much greater risk.


This is a nonsensical argument for the DTaP vaccine, which does not prevent infection nor does it prevent transmission of disease.


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## DisasterCupcake (Jan 3, 2015)

haypoint said:


> If your horse fails a Coggins test, the horse gets euthanized. If you don't want that, the horse is quarantined and must remain inside, with no other horses within 1/4 mile.
> 
> So, to me, it makes sense, if you don't want your children vaccinated, you have that right. But to protect society, unvaccinated children should be quarantined, at home.


Your logic is pretty skewed here. A horse with a validated positive test of infectious disease is very different from a child that hasn't been exposed to vaccination.
Many of the vaccines don't prevent infection, or transmission of disease. Many of them are live viral vaccines which shed. Some are for diseases that are not communicable from one person to another. 
In almost every instance, we are aware when a child has fallen ill and they are indeed quarantined. For the most part, these short lived infections grant lifelong immunity to that disease, and prevent that person from being an active carrier. Something that cannot be said for the vaccinated.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Seriously, nobody is questioning the $800k bill and its validity? You just accept thats what it cost without examining what exactly they did and how much they overcharged cause these folk didnt have insurance company that pre-negotiated the price down to a small fraction of that amount?????

The medical system in USA is BROKEN. It only works for the wealthy. There shouldnt be 1000 different prices for any one thing depending which if any insurance you have. And the prices should be public.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

DisasterCupcake said:


> Your logic is pretty skewed here. A horse with a validated positive test of infectious disease is very different from a child that hasn't been exposed to vaccination.
> Many of the vaccines don't prevent infection, or transmission of disease. Many of them are live viral vaccines which shed. Some are for diseases that are not communicable from one person to another.
> In almost every instance, we are aware when a child has fallen ill and they are indeed quarantined. For the most part, these short lived infections grant lifelong immunity to that disease, and prevent that person from being an active carrier. Something that cannot be said for the vaccinated.


It doesn't matter if a person is exposed or vaccinated, the body produces antibodies against that specific antigen, they have immunity as long as the titer is high enough.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

DisasterCupcake said:


> Your logic is pretty skewed here. A horse with a validated positive test of infectious disease is very different from a child that hasn't been exposed to vaccination.
> Many of the vaccines don't prevent infection, or transmission of disease. Many of them are live viral vaccines which shed. Some are for diseases that are not communicable from one person to another.
> In almost every instance, we are aware when a child has fallen ill and they are indeed quarantined. For the most part, these short lived infections grant lifelong immunity to that disease, and prevent that person from being an active carrier. Something that cannot be said for the vaccinated.


Often infected disease carrying students are not identified and quarantined before infecting others. The unvaccinated students carry a far higher likelihood that they will contract and spread the disease. Further, to protect the unvaccinated student from infected students, they should be sheltered from exposure in their home.


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Interesting viewpoint to say the least. But I don't regard children as being the same as cattle. Cattle are usually much nicer and less stressful than kids.


Why did I laugh out loud?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Just curious. How many on here got vaccinated for the chicken pox?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Meinecke said:


> Almost a billion


You must be using that new math.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> How many on here got vaccinated for the chicken pox?


Probably nearly none since most had the disease long before there was a vaccine.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HermitJohn said:


> Seriously, nobody is questioning the $800k bill and its validity? You just accept thats what it cost without examining what exactly they did and how much they overcharged cause these folk didnt have insurance company that pre-negotiated the price down to a small fraction of that amount?????
> 
> The medical system in USA is BROKEN. It only works for the wealthy. There shouldnt be 1000 different prices for any one thing depending which if any insurance you have. And the prices should be public.


I lack a lot of being wealthy... Our system works well for me. It's worked quite well for most of the people I've known too. I will admit it's not nearly as cheap as it was before the aca came into play.


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

I never had the chicken pox vaccine, but have paid for the shingles vaccine.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Probably had all the usual childhood diseases except polio. Both kinds of measles, chickenpox, etc. And a bout of the shingles around fifteen years ago.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I lack a lot of being wealthy... Our system works well for me. It's worked quite well for most of the people I've known too. I will admit it's not nearly as cheap as it was before the aca came into play.


The ACA came into being cause insurance was skyrocketing and companies were dropping coverage for their employees fast and furious. Ah those inconvenient little facts always getting in way of that shining city on the hill.... Those companies that also didnt shut up shop, run for the border and the promise of ever cheaper labor. The whole system was in grave danger of completely collapsing. Before ACA if you had a pre-existing condition and no gold plated group plan at work from efforts of a labor union usually, you were seriously screwed and tattooed. Some news story of a REPUBLICAN woman that couldnt get coverage due to pre-existing condition. Offering to marry any man that would get her under his group coverage (had to be good gold plated group coverage.) Otherwise she was simply going to die. Now there is a choice for you, prostitute yourself or die, and pity the fool that married her, thats a no win deal. 

By way ACA is expensive cause it mandates certain coverages. It was written by the private insurance industry so didnt actually try to rein in costs, just force everybody to buy from a private for-profit company. Private "cheap" policies are cheap for a reason, they dont cover anything. And if you somehow do qualify for something they do supposedly cover, you need tag team of lawyers and couple decades to fight for it in court, hoping you dont die in meantime. PRIVATE insurance companies are a DEATH PANEL, deciding who gets treatment and who doesnt.

Costs a third per capita with the UK system that we pay in the USA. American public is just a cash cow for the wealthy. If you aint wealthy, you are beef on the table for the wealthy, here in the good ole USA.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Amen John, but the crowd ain't listening.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Either the kid had medical insurance or they relied on Medicare. Either way, their foolish refusal to keep their son vaccinated cost me money. I'm fine with the freedom to make foolish choices, but I expect them to be on the hook when their nonsense costs society.

Today it was announced that a foreigner from the Middle East came to Detroit and may have exposed people to measles.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

nehimama said:


> Why did I laugh out loud?


Because truth is funnier than fiction.
(Unless the fiction is just lies)


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

HermitJohn said:


> The ACA came into being cause insurance was skyrocketing and companies were dropping coverage for their employees fast and furious. Ah those inconvenient little facts always getting in way of that shining city on the hill.... Those companies that also didnt shut up shop, run for the border and the promise of ever cheaper labor. The whole system was in grave danger of completely collapsing. Before ACA if you had a pre-existing condition and no gold plated group plan at work from efforts of a labor union usually, you were seriously screwed and tattooed. Some news story of a REPUBLICAN woman that couldnt get coverage due to pre-existing condition. Offering to marry any man that would get her under his group coverage (had to be good gold plated group coverage.) Otherwise she was simply going to die. Now there is a choice for you, prostitute yourself or die, and pity the fool that married her, thats a no win deal.
> 
> By way ACA is expensive cause it mandates certain coverages. It was written by the private insurance industry so didnt actually try to rein in costs, just force everybody to buy from a private for-profit company. Private "cheap" policies are cheap for a reason, they dont cover anything. And if you somehow do qualify for something they do supposedly cover, you need tag team of lawyers and couple decades to fight for it in court, hoping you dont die in meantime. PRIVATE insurance companies are a DEATH PANEL, deciding who gets treatment and who doesnt.
> 
> Costs a third per capita with the UK system that we pay in the USA. American public is just a cash cow for the wealthy. If you aint wealthy, you are beef on the table for the wealthy, here in the good ole USA.


ACA came into being because people love free stuff. The funding of Canada's health care is so convoluted, it's hard to pinpoint what it's costing them. I heard it is $40,000 per family of four.
Cheap health care is a mirage. People don't treat health insurance like homeowner's or auto insurance. We don't think about getting our money back from homeowner's or auto insurances. But most folks look a health insurance like it is a Groupon coupon. They want prescription insurance for $30 a month to cover their $300 a month pills. You can't buy flood insurance when there is 4 feet of mud in your house, yet people expect to get health insurance for $500 a month to cover a pre-existing condition that costs $5000 a month. People want low cost insurance, but when you are 85 years old expect to get a $40,000 knee replacement. Any financially responsible alternative gets labeled the inflammatory "death panel". 
The advances in medicines, diagnostics, rehabilitation and surgeries in the past 30 years is greater than the previous 3000 years. But someone needs to pay for it.
If you are 90 and need a heart transplant that costs $100,000 am I obligated to fund that?
If you use the taxpayer funded food stamps to buy potato chips and weigh 500 pounds, should I pay for your scooter chair when you can no longer get around?

When a politician says he can get you unlimited health care for a cheap price and not drive doctors and nurses away, they are lying to you. Stop believing them just because you want to believe it.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I'm in the freedom corner on this one. Everyone knows it's foolish to not vaccinate their kids but stupid isn't a crime. Nor should it be.


I agree with you ,we both know that stupid does have its price


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mreynolds said:


> Has anyone else noticed that people will do things they believe will help their child's health like get a vaccine or don't get a vaccine. Then they go to the store and buy cokes and donuts to give to them?


Of course !

Why wouldn’t someone concerned about their child’s welfare buy their Child health food?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

ydderf said:


> I cam agree with YH it is the parents right to not vaccinate. One requirement should be met by the parents of unvaccinated children proof of financial responsibility. It can be insurance or property or whatever so long as it is enough to cover up to $500,00.00 in case the child needs medical care.


 Are you just pulling random numbers from where the sun doesn’t shine? I can’t see how half 1 million has anything at all to do with this situation ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Meinecke said:


> You can think of regulations what you like, but in some places they are needed...no one would argue speed limits, voting age, drinking age....


Id take that bet want to put a few Benjamin’s on it?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

In Canada, with Nationalized Health Care, if a foreigner comes into the country and is pregnant, she has to show proof of the funds required for delivery at hospital. People not covered, non-citizens, bare the cost of their health care.

I think holding people responsible for risky behavior is reasonable. But I doubt we could tax alcohol high enough to cover its cost to society. But if we have taxpayer funded ACA, I want to hold every anti-vaccine folks responsible for the resulting health care costs for them and those they infect. Liability is common in a civil society.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I lack a lot of being wealthy... Our system works well for me. It's worked quite well for most of the people I've known too. I will admit it's not nearly as cheap as it was before the aca came into play.


 From things you have said before you seem quite wealthy. 
Upper half ?10%? 1%?


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## DisasterCupcake (Jan 3, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> It doesn't matter if a person is exposed or vaccinated, the body produces antibodies against that specific antigen, they have immunity as long as the titer is high enough.


It does, in fact, matter how a person is exposed to a pathogen.
Antibody production is the target of vaccination; however, there is no evidence that the presence of antibodies is the only way, or even the best way, of ensuring immunity to disease.
Vaccination produces a flush of antibody production on the first dose, with diminishing return from every subsequent dose given. Antibody titers in vaccinated individuals varies, but most do not meet the level of believed protection from disease for more than 5 years, and extremely rarely for more than 7.
Alternatively, the innatel immune system which is invoked via wild/natural exposure does not utilize the humoral mechanism whatever, and lifelong immunity to disease is documented in people deficient in antibodies. Injected vaccines totally bypass innate immunity. 
In the instance of, specifically, the TDaP or DTaP vaccine, the stated goal and practical outcome is not to produce antibodies against the pathogen itself. This vaccine is designed, and meant to produce antibodies to the toxin produced by the pathogens which themselves cause the infection. So, to be quite clear, the DTaP and related vaccines do not prevent Pertussis infection, nor do they prevent Tetanus infection, and it cannot. Since the target of this vaccine is the toxin itself, should a person encounter Pertussis or Tetanus, they must become infected with it and the toxin produced in their body to find any benefit of that vaccination. 
IMO, it was very stupid of these parents to refuse the tetanus antitoxin, which is not a vaccine btw. However, its unclear whether the TDaP or related vaccines improve outcome in tetanus or prevent the disease once exposed.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

DisasterCupcake said:


> It does, in fact, matter how a person is exposed to a pathogen.
> Antibody production is the target of vaccination; however, there is no evidence that the presence of antibodies is the only way, or even the best way, of ensuring immunity to disease.
> Vaccination produces a flush of antibody production on the first dose, with diminishing return from every subsequent dose given. Antibody titers in vaccinated individuals varies, but most do not meet the level of believed protection from disease for more than 5 years, and extremely rarely for more than 7.
> Alternatively, the innatel immune system which is invoked via wild/natural exposure does not utilize the humoral mechanism whatever, and lifelong immunity to disease is documented in people deficient in antibodies. Injected vaccines totally bypass innate immunity.
> ...


So titer (the presence of antibodies) value doesn't matter? I was taught, not via Google, that it was... Huh. Carry on.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> From things you have said before you seem quite wealthy.
> Upper half ?10%? 1%?


lower half


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> HermitJohn said: ↑
> The ACA came into being *cause...*


"cause" the Democrats forced it on everyone despite the majority not wanting it at all.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Bearfootfarm said:


> "cause" the Democrats forced it on everyone despite the majority not wanting it at all.


By your standards that isn't a valid argument. We have it because people wanted it.


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

AmericanStand said:


> Are you just pulling random numbers from where the sun doesn’t shine? I can’t see how half 1 million has anything at all to do with this situation ?


I spent an evening in a Spokane hospital after an allergic reaction this was in 1994, I forget the actual numbers for my anti-histamine injection, but do remember it was over $400.00. Are you trying to tell me medical costs in the good ol US of A have come down since then or are you just uninformed.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

ydderf said:


> I spent an evening in a Spokane hospital after an allergic reaction this was in 1994, I forget the actual numbers for my anti-histamine injection, but do remember it was over $400.00. Are you trying to tell me medical costs in the good ol US of A have come down since then or are you just uninformed.


I read another article about the Oregon boy, and it indicated that over a hundred Drs and nurses were involved in his care.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

IndyDave said:


> By your standards that isn't a valid argument. We have it because people wanted it.


So you say.
Data says something different:
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-...are-has-never-been-favored-majority-american/



> Since the Affordable Care Act was drafted in 2009, the poll numbers have been more or less consistent across different months and polling organizations: *The approval rating has hovered around 40 percent recently*, with about 50 percent disapproval and 10 percent no opinion.
> 
> Not much has changed since then, according to a recent CNN and ORC report of all their Obamacare polling. That’s consistent with Gallup and other polling agencies. As best as we can tell, a credible poll has never turned up a figure over 50 percent


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

DisasterCupcake said:


> IMO, it was very stupid of these parents to refuse the tetanus antitoxin, which is not a vaccine btw


I think there is a time lapse here. They waited far too long for the antitoxin to provide the help needed.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> I think there is a time lapse here. They waited far too long for the antitoxin to provide the help needed.


The parents completely refused to have the tetanus antitoxin administered ever after being told multiple times that it would help their son. I'll never understand how "anti-vaxxer" parents put their children at risk.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

ydderf said:


> I spent an evening in a Spokane hospital after an allergic reaction this was in 1994, I forget the actual numbers for my anti-histamine injection, but do remember it was over $400.00. Are you trying to tell me medical costs in the good ol US of A have come down since then or are you just uninformed.


I am trying to determine your logic for requiring everybody to have a half $1 million in assets available to pay medical bills
It seems like there is quite a jump from a $400 bill for a anti-histamine shot to you wanting people to have $500,000 of available assets. 
I’m just trying to figure out where you got the number


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> The parents completely refused to have the tetanus antitoxin administered ever after being told multiple times that it would help their son. I'll never understand how "anti-vaxxer" parents put their children at risk.


You are trying to understand fears?

I was going to say irrational fears but who am I to determine what is a rational fear and what is in a rational fear there is some logic for both sides of the argument about vaccines


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> "cause" the Democrats forced it on everyone despite the majority not wanting it at all.


Yea the majority wanted single payer, not mandated purchase from a private company at crazy profit margin. Notice the Republicans cant agree on anything much beyond voting their patrons ever more tax cuts. They just want to fiddle while Rome burns.


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## DisasterCupcake (Jan 3, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> So titer (the presence of antibodies) value doesn't matter? I was taught, not via Google, that it was... Huh. Carry on.


Because accepting things you're "taught'' at face value is always the better option.


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

AmericanStand said:


> I am trying to determine your logic for requiring everybody to have a half $1 million in assets available to pay medical bills
> It seems like there is quite a jump from a $400 bill for a anti-histamine shot to you wanting people to have $500,000 of available assets.
> I’m just trying to figure out where you got the number


This thread is about an $800,000.00 bill for tetanus treatment due to lack of vaccination. What would it cost if someone were to catch polio and need to be hospitalized in the USA? I know it would be more then I wish to pay. I'm not sure of insurance requirements in the USA but I carry 3,000,000.00 in liability insurance on my vehicle insurances the mandated minimum is $200,000.00, that is just asking to lose the farm with that little bit of coverage. If you help out driving school age kids the mandated minimum is 3,000,000.00. It seems to me $500,000.00 of some sort of liability coverage is not an unreal expectation.


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## tripletmom (Feb 4, 2005)

ydderf said:


> This thread is about an $800,000.00 bill for tetanus treatment due to lack of vaccination. What would it cost if someone were to catch polio and need to be hospitalized in the USA? I know it would be more then I wish to pay. I'm not sure of insurance requirements in the USA but I carry 3,000,000.00 in liability insurance on my vehicle insurances the mandated minimum is $200,000.00, that is just asking to lose the farm with that little bit of coverage. If you help out driving school age kids the mandated minimum is 3,000,000.00. It seems to me $500,000.00 of some sort of liability coverage is not an unreal expectation.


Your talking apples to oranges! The 3m liability policy is for if you are found liable for something, you crash your car into someone or the neighbors kid drowns in your pool. It wouldn't have covered this kids medical bills and it won't cover your medical bills either!


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

tripletmom said:


> Your talking apples to oranges! The 3m liability policy is for if you are found liable for something, you crash your car into someone or the neighbors kid drowns in your pool. It wouldn't have covered this kids medical bills and it won't cover your medical bills either!


I understand my liability only applies to auto mishaps. But in general are the child's parents not liable for his medical bills.I know that up here in the great white north there is liability policies available for any number of contingencies, City Councillors must have liability insurance members of corporate boards better have liability. Why should parents of un-vaccinated children not have liability insurance to cover potential massive medical bills, I think it would be a wise investment.


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## tripletmom (Feb 4, 2005)

I agree the child's parents should be responsible for the medical bills. Only health insurance would have covered this.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Should health insurance cover these costs if parents refuse to vaccinate?


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

]


HermitJohn said:


> Yea the majority wanted single payer, not mandated purchase from a private company at crazy profit margin. Notice the Republicans cant agree on anything much beyond voting their patrons ever more tax cuts. They just want to fiddle while Rome burns.


I would largely agree including the voting as directed by the usual sponsors, although that applies across the board. I would, however, point out that this law was developed by D's behind closed doors and voted up with the opposition of every single R.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> Should health insurance cover these costs if parents refuse to vaccinate?


No. 

On the other hand health insurance should cover in FULL any problems that arise that COULD have been caused by the vaccination. Preventive efforts and side affects caused by making the effort to have better health in the long run should not be penalized. No deductible, co pay, etc.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HermitJohn said:


> Notice the Republicans cant agree on anything much beyond voting their patrons ever more tax cuts.


The tax cuts applied to everyone.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> Should health insurance cover these costs if parents refuse to vaccinate?


No the company producing the unsafe vaccine should.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

ydderf said:


> This thread is about an $800,000.00 bill for tetanus treatment due to lack of vaccination. What would it cost if someone were to catch polio and need to be hospitalized in the USA? I know it would be more then I wish to pay. I'm not sure of insurance requirements in the USA but I carry 3,000,000.00 in liability insurance on my vehicle insurances the mandated minimum is $200,000.00, that is just asking to lose the farm with that little bit of coverage. If you help out driving school age kids the mandated minimum is 3,000,000.00. It seems to me $500,000.00 of some sort of liability coverage is not an unreal expectation.


 So it is just a number you pulled out of your butt. 
It’s not enough to pay for the situation , it’s just what would make you “feel” better.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> No the company producing the unsafe vaccine should.


What "unsafe vaccine"?
Why should they pay for something someone else did?

That's as foolish as suing gun manufacturers when someone steals a gun to commit a crime.


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

AmericanStand said:


> So it is just a number you pulled out of your butt.
> It’s not enough to pay for the situation , it’s just what would make you “feel” better.


It came out of my butt for you to play with. It in my estimation is a large enough number to be able to not lose the farm paying for an avoidable bill. If you don't like $500,000.00 pull a number of your own out of your butt. My only desire is that us taxpayers not be stuck with a bill because of somebodies stupidity.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

First cleanup. Don't forget you're in GC.


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## Tnff319 (May 28, 2012)

If I lay a loaded gun on the table and a child harms themself, I go to jail because it was a preventable issue and I was selfish and careless. A Parent doesn’t provided accepted and standard medical care and it’s just parental rights. As stated, freedom and rights are a tricky thing. Your freedom to scream loudly violates my freedom to peace and quiet. Who’s freedom is more important.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

ydderf said:


> It came out of my butt for you to play with. It in my estimation is a large enough number to be able to not lose the farm paying for an avoidable bill. If you don't like $500,000.00 pull a number of your own out of your butt. My only desire is that us taxpayers not be stuck with a bill because of somebodies stupidity.


Is the hospital under an obligation to treat those who cannot afford to pay for it? Did the taxpayers reimbursed the hospital for those fees?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Shouldn’t the taxpayers help pay for a problem they have created ?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Shouldn’t the taxpayers help pay for a problem they have created ?


Which taxpayer developed tetanus? Sometimes life just stinks.


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

AmericanStand said:


> Shouldn’t the taxpayers help pay for a problem they have created ?


You're bound and determined to have the last word I give it to you!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Which taxpayer developed tetanus? Sometimes life just stinks.


Allowing unsafe vaccines to be marketed stopped the development of safe vaccines. 
By allowing unsafe vaccines on the market we have created exactly the things that the anti-vaccineor’s fear


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Shouldn’t the taxpayers help pay for a problem they have created ?


They didn't create any problem.
It's not like they parked in front of a fire hydrant.


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## 1948CaseVAI (May 12, 2014)

Meinecke said:


> 800.000 dollar bill for treating an bacteria out brake in a kid is beyond any moral...
> This hospital should be ashamed to even come up with such price tag
> No wonder why this health system here is so lost...
> With no regulated treatment costs, they can just ask what they like.
> ...


It's a lot of money, but the costs that the medical center has to pay are enormous. And the "few people looking at you" have, for the most part, very expensive educations, great skills, and are very highly paid, as they should be. The "few gallons of salilne" also cost dearly as you can't just pour some table salt into a pitcher. The product is produces under strict, controlled condisionts by people who are also highly paid, as they should be. If you think about it you would see that this is no place to cheap out.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

There’s a big difference between cheating out and cost is no object.


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## tripletmom (Feb 4, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> No the company producing the unsafe vaccine should.


The kid didn't get any vaccine, that's the problem. Why should the company be responsible for that? Thats just stupid! 
And vaccines aren't 'unsafe'. You've just bought into the anti vaxxer's propaganda!
Anything and everything considered safe will cause an 'unsafe' situation for someone, nothing is 100% safe be it a vaccine, a fruit or whatever, anything, I promise!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

DisasterCupcake said:


> Because accepting things you're "taught'' at face value is always the better option.


That's just a mite presumptuous, isn't it? I was taught why, as well as how, vaccines and disease affect titer values.

Is your "research" from Google U? Just curious.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

1948CaseVAI said:


> It's a lot of money, but the costs that the medical center has to pay are enormous. And the "few people looking at you" have, for the most part, very expensive educations, great skills, and are very highly paid, as they should be. The "few gallons of salilne" also cost dearly as you can't just pour some table salt into a pitcher. The product is produces under strict, controlled condisionts by people who are also highly paid, as they should be. If you think about it you would see that this is no place to cheap out.


I read an article that indicated over 100 Drs and nurses worked on this boy.


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## DisasterCupcake (Jan 3, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> That's just a mite presumptuous, isn't it? I was taught why, as well as how, vaccines and disease affect titer values.
> 
> Is your "research" from Google U? Just curious.


My education is via a top 10, not that I would invoke an appeal to authority 
Ironically I was also taught that everything my professors said is 50% correct and 50% false. Trouble was they didn't know which was which. Emphasizing the importance of continual research over dogmatic acceptance of 'fact', particularly in the medical field.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

DisasterCupcake said:


> My education is via a top 10, not that I would invoke an appeal to authority
> Ironically I was also taught that everything my professors said is 50% correct and 50% false. Trouble was they didn't know which was which. Emphasizing the importance of continual research over dogmatic acceptance of 'fact', particularly in the medical field.


I find that very hard to believe as you indicate you're a "nutritional consultant" and use anti-vaxxer rhetoric, but as I said before, carry on.


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## DisasterCupcake (Jan 3, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> I find that very hard to believe as you indicate you're a "nutritional consultant" and use anti-vaxxer rhetoric, but as I said before, carry on.


Wonderful. I'd be happy to discuss content and concepts to help you understand a complex opinion. However, I will refrain from referring to your position, education, or philosophical bent for reference in healthy discussion.


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

I had a thought in another direction. Will the un-vaccinated boy who has some long term damage issues from the bout of tetanus according to the news I read,be able to sue his parents for causing his pain and distress. Perhaps not now but when he reaches adulthood in Oregon. This seems like a better reason to sue your parents then suing for being named Gaylord, look it up.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> I agree with you ,we both know that stupid does have its price


You got that right!
BTW, not to put you on the spot, but just curious, would you happen to know what that price is in 2019 dollars, adjusted for inflation?
I don't have a clue, but it's gotta be pretty high by now!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

farmrbrown said:


> You got that right!
> BTW, not to put you on the spot, but just curious, would you happen to know what that price is in 2019 dollars, adjusted for inflation?
> I don't have a clue, but it's gotta be pretty high by now!


 Not sure but stupid is costing me about a grand this weekend.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Not sure but stupid is costing me about a grand this weekend.


I'm not sure either, but it sounds like you got a discount this time.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Ole about average


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