# Tiny Home Community for Homeless Vets



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I've had a similar idea for a retirement community, but the houses would be at least twice as large (about 500 sq ft) with a bigger lot.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I had never regarded the City government of Kansas City Mo very highly, until they did this.


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## alida (Feb 8, 2015)

I found the reasoning behind the design features very thoughtful ,to make the vets feel more secure and safe in their home. The development is pleasing to the eye too,with different color exteriors and a bit of space between each home. It's not one bit institutional looking. I hope the program keeps expanding.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

The things nightmares are made of.
No connection to community no porches no way to get a breeze through the building entirely too Close no individuality no outdoor living space


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

It will be interesting to see what it looks like a year from now.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Or ten. 

It seems worse than some of the tiny trailer courts of the 50s


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

You know the American government has millions of acres in places as varied as San Francisco’s waterfront and Alaskas Brooks Range. 
You think there’d be some sort of a program or a veteran could get 5 acres and build a house and a pleasant little place?

Oh yes there was a program such as that but Ronald Reagan destroyed it. 
Then Bush buried any hope for its return.


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## Hooligans (Jul 11, 2017)

Something like this is being started up in North Pole, AK, by a private group with no government involvement, other than it is to be a non-profit. Apparently there are funds available to provide housing to homeless? I heard about it in local radio news. I'm considering contacting them to see if I can help. I've tried volunteering locally with Wounded Warrior and all they want is money.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Do you know anything about the funds to help house homeless veterans? I would certainly be interested in developing such a community in my little town


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## Hooligans (Jul 11, 2017)

I sure don't. I just gathered by the way they were talking about it that something like that exists.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I have a friend who designed a community like this for retired folks. He included an amenities/community center. Had the land located. Looked for investors. Gave up.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

These are intended as halfway houses. They get veterans off of the street, and then when they are ready for more they try to find them better housing.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> You think there’d be some sort of a program or a veteran could get 5 acres and build a house and a pleasant little place?


That "program" is called "getting a job" and buying a house.
Millions do it.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I have a friend who designed a community like this for retired folks. He included an amenities/community center. Had the land located. Looked for investors. Gave up.


 I did almost exactly that in my little town when the time came that we needed both a new community center and a new restaurant at the same time and of course we’ve always needed single and senior housing. 
It would’ve had for the community center and the restaurant sharing a kitchen. 
All access on the same level and both senior and single living units on the same block across the alley. 
The town being at the townhouse did not want to do this because it would’ve cost a village just over $1500 extra
Instead they got a community center with an in adequate kitchen and a private individual remodeled a very inconvenient building into the new café
No housing units at all. No disabled or wheelchair access.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That "program" is called "getting a job" and buying a house.
> Millions do it.


Yes and that’s even easier for veterans but they do seem to gain a lot of sympathy attention when they are homeless


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> when they are homeless


Most of the homeless are on drugs or have mental problems.
Having another "program" wouldn't help them at all.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Finding yourself homeless must crush your spirit.
Maybe then you start to drink too much or try a few drugs.
You must hate yourself at that point but don't look for help as many others hate you as well.

Sounds like hell on earth.
As a vet you're asked to fight just don't look for any help when it's over.
What a sad and sick country we have become.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

SRSLADE said:


> As a vet you're asked to fight just don't look for any help when it's over.
> What a sad and sick country we have become.


good lord you can’t be serious are you? Vets have all kinds of programs designed at all kinds Oh programs designed to help,
The government sponsors huge numbers of them private charity sponsors huge numbers of them you can’t watch and nights TV without saying something where they want you to give more to this charity or that charity what more would you do?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

AmericanStand said:


> good lord you can’t be serious are you? Vets have all kinds of programs designed at all kinds Oh programs designed to help,
> The government sponsors huge numbers of them private charity sponsors huge numbers of them you can’t watch and nights TV without saying something where they want you to give more to this charity or that charity what more would you do?


But we do terrible with PTSD and other types of rehab. And why are charities doing it when it is the responsibility of US government? It is criminal what happens to some vets.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

MoonRiver said:


> But we do terrible with PTSD and other types of rehab. And why are charities doing it when it is the responsibility of US government? It is criminal what happens to some vets.


Once again you can’t be serious? Our Veterans medical care is the best in the world. Charities jump into these things for the same reason they jump in other things it makes them feel good but they’re not needed


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

American Stand, you must not know the veterans that I know. 

My son is a Navy veteran. His wife is a Navy veteran. My best friend is an Army veteran. 

I won’t get in a tinkling match, but the VA medical system is slow, awkward to use, and medically antiquated. The doctors admit they are not allowed to prescribe the newer better meds.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

AmericanStand said:


> Once again you can’t be serious? Our Veterans medical care is the best in the world. Charities jump into these things for the same reason they jump in other things it makes them feel good but they’re not needed


I guess you haven't read the news for the last several years. If the VA is so good, why the high suicide rate for veterans? Why the high drug use rate for veterans? Why the high homeless rates for veterans?

In a talk given by Gordon Peterson, he discussed how one's internal view of reality effects someone who suffers a trauma. 

If you see life through rose covered glasses, trauma is hard to fit into your internal view of reality. Now take someone who has a sheltered view of reality and send them to the front in Iraq or Afghanistan where they experience things on an almost daily basis that is so far outside their internal reality that it breaks down. Somehow they have to be rebuilt mentally to be able to incorporate these experiences, yet still leave them with a healthy mind. The government has failed miserably at this.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

https://www.va.gov/QUALITYOFCARE/measure-up/End_of_Year_Hospital_star_Rating_FY2018.asp


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

MoonRiver said:


> I guess you haven't read the news for the last several years. If the VA is so good, why the high suicide rate for veterans? Why the high drug use rate for veterans? Why the high homeless rates for veterans?
> 
> In a talk given by Gordon Peterson, he discussed how one's internal view of reality effects someone who suffers a trauma.
> 
> If you see life through rose covered glasses, trauma is hard to fit into your internal view of reality. Now take someone who has a sheltered view of reality and send them to the front in Iraq or Afghanistan where they experience things on an almost daily basis that is so far outside their internal reality that it breaks down. Somehow they have to be rebuilt mentally to be able to incorporate these experiences, yet still leave them with a healthy mind. The government has failed miserably at this.


 Basically the problems are due to the fact that the soldiers cannot reconcile the things that they have done with who they want to think they are.
And yes I still believe the government does a excellent job on those things


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Getting a job when you have no address is BEYOND hard! So is recovering PTSD when you are on the streets.

Do you know how PTSD was dealt with in WW1? They were surrounded by their buddies who gave them moral support, and the trip home took months and so they had the support of other veterans for months while they decompressed. It was not neccesarily enough, but it was something.

These tiny homes surrounds people with PTSD with other veterans for months, and they have a real address when they apply for work. In my opinion this is a wonderful idea


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

It’s interesting to think that technology has actually reduced recovery.
But given the choice I doubt that many of today’s veterans which used to wait for months to get home


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

AmericanStand said:


> good lord you can’t be serious are you? Vets have all kinds of programs designed at all kinds Oh programs designed to help,
> The government sponsors huge numbers of them private charity sponsors huge numbers of them you can’t watch and nights TV without saying something where they want you to give more to this charity or that charity what more would you do?


You will never believe it, but those programs that are supposedly designed to help have very narrow definitions of who can qualify. The majority do not meet the criteria. VA medical care falls all over the map as far as quality.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

You are right I don’t believe it


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

the lots are small, the houses are close together, no porches. but I would bet if you ask any of the tenants, they would tell you that it sure beats a cardboard box under the bridge..


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Adding a porch would have raised the cost of each unit significantly. Also, there is a 5,000 sq ft amenity/community center. 

Good planning.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Once again you can’t be serious? Our Veterans medical care is the best in the world. Charities jump into these things for the same reason they jump in other things it makes them feel good but they’re not needed


Have you talked to many vets? There's a reason the va has become the poster child for getting the government out of health care.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I have or have had several vets in my family. Every one of them worked a private sector job so they could have health insurance for themselves and their families. Every one of them has had to fight with the VA to have necessary medical care. That care was often substandard or delayed until the vet's health had deteriorated beyond help. Often the facility they are required to use is a few hour drive away, despite having VA facilities right in the area.

To this day I thank God that my early care was through private insurance and not the VA.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

https://psychcentral.com/blog/va-mental-health-care-is-so-bad-its-unconstitutional/

.....the three judge panel concluded that the lack of timely access to mental health care through the VA system violates veterans’ Constitutional rights....


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...plined-reporting-veteran-problems/1480893001/


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

And then there is the denied reimbursement issue....


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/milita...illion-veterans-medical-claims-one-6-n1043086


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

Then maybe you should educate yourself before spouting off about things you don't even have a passing knowledge about. Oh, wait...I forgot where I was for a second 


AmericanStand said:


> You are right I don’t believe it


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Have you talked to many vets? There's a reason the va has become the poster child for getting the government out of health care.


 Yup every time I go to the VA. Most vets seem pleased with the care and surprised with the amount they get


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

rkintn said:


> Then maybe you should educate yourself before spouting off about things you don't even have a passing knowledge about. Oh, wait...I forgot where I was for a second


You made a claim I agreed with you feel free to offer all the education you want


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Yup every time I go to the VA. Most vets seem pleased with the care and surprised with the amount they get


So you talk to vets who are actually getting care. Try talking to those who can't, They have a different point of veiw.


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## tripletmom (Feb 4, 2005)

My father in law was a decorated veteran of the Korean war and the way the VA treated him was disgraceful!!


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

AmericanStand said:


> You made a claim I agreed with you feel free to offer all the education you want


Nope. I'll pass. Wouldn't do any good anyway and I have better ways to waste my time.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Then why are you here ?


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

I think this is a waste of money.
Just folks getting in on the latest "in" thing.
What happens when the grant money runs out?
Is it self sustaining?
Is it near where vets can get jobs? Public transportation?
As an alternative, so you don't think I'm just a negative Nancy, Why not rehab a closed motel?

And yeah - I'm the one that thinks the government should open a closed military base for the homeless - vets included - so all services can be in one place, where the infrastructure is already up.

BTW: I used to be a job coach, getting jobs for the mentally ill. Let me tell ya - it ain't easy getting all the pieces to work together.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

I have yet to see a weed or a needle jump up and attack either man or woman. "Victim" is a term that should never be applied to drunks, potheads, dopers. Not one individual past the age of reason is ignorant of the effects of drugs. We should call them "stupid saps". 

PTSD is overblown, it is nothing more than mental illness brought on by stressful experience. Most such victims would have eventually succumbed to some sort of stress, veteran or not. They are sick, just as is the person who has cancer. We owe veterans care and sympathy,. but not because they are drunks or addicts.

The courts made a serious error when they ruled that people unable to care for themselves could not be committed to either "poor farms" or mental institutions.

I've no opinion on the tiny houses other than that they will congregate people with problems in one spot. Better a poor farm or mental hospital.

Near here a preacher has bought used mobile homes, set them up in a big trailer park, rented them at low rates to people down on their luck. Of course, welfare is covering the rent????? Charity at its best?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Wolf mom I like your idea ! the problem is most closed motels are closed because there’s nothing in the area to attract anyone. 
I was just at shady grove NM. An entire truckstop and nice big motel are empty and available there.
But on a hot summer day it’s probably a 20 mile walk to a drink of water


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

The projects failed partly because so many have-nots were crammed into a small area that employers all knew the address. And they refused to hire people with that address. That was why the section 8 housing is scattered throughout the community, now

I have known people with PTSD, and NO it is not an overblown problem.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Terri: PTSD is what we once called shell-shock. It is a MENTAL DISORDER no different from those encountered by civilians but brought on by different experience. The people with PTSD would quite likely have been mental patients at some time during their lives had they never been veterans. Between the two great wars we had the same sort of problems, all civilian, but we had mental hospitals and the mental patients did not roam the streets. We had druggies, too, in limited numbers, but we called them "dope fiends".


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Oxankle said:


> Terri: PTSD is what we once called shell-shock. It is a MENTAL DISORDER no different from those encountered by civilians but brought on by different experience. The people with PTSD would quite likely have been mental patients at some time during their lives had they never been veterans. Between the two great wars we had the same sort of problems, all civilian, but we had mental hospitals and the mental patients did not roam the streets. We had druggies, too, in limited numbers, but we called them "dope fiends".


Too bad my father isn't still alive so you could tell him and all the other POWs from WWII that they were really just mental patients.

There was a reunion of sorts in Austria that my 2 sisters recently attended. It was hosted by a man who as a young child saw my father and the rest of his flight crew bail out of their burning plane. 

The other children of the crew members all had the same story - fathers that became alcoholics, that couldn't relate well to others, that had trouble keeping a job, that were poor fathers and husbands, etc. These guys were heroes and the VA had no idea what to do with them.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Too bad my father isn't still alive so you could tell him and all the other POWs from WWII that they were really just mental patients.


I remember an ugly stain referring to POWs as losers. Let that sink in.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

https://www.nj.com/gloucester-county/2018/10/operation_safe_haven.html

Here is an example of using a former campground for a setting. I think it's great.

There are stories of other towns and cities providing this type of housing, it must be a very successful endeavor and dearly appreciated!


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Whatever the cause. PTSD IS a mental disease and requires the same treatment. It is not confined to veterans. Firemen, policemen, abused women, people with heritable imbalances can all suffer the same symptoms. Those who choose to treat their illnesses with drugs oir alcohol do not get better. No one here has suggested that POW's were losers---better to be in a pow camp than dead. One of my friends was captured and freed three times--he did not become a PTSD patient, but he did die young.

How do you account for the fact that millions of service men who endured the same experiences as the PTSD patients DID NOT become unbalanced, came home, got jobs and raised their families in peace?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Humans have a habit of white washing the past. 


http://theconversation.com/from-shell-shock-to-ptsd-a-century-of-invisible-war-trauma-74911


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/extra/series-1/shell_shocked.shtml


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

That certainly explains the attitude here concerning PTSD. Eventually, these antiquated, hurtful ideas will fall to the wayside. PTSD and mental illness are NOT a form of personal failure or inadequacy. Those who say other wise are grossly misinformed.


Alice In TX/MO said:


> Humans have a habit of white washing the past.
> 
> 
> http://theconversation.com/from-shell-shock-to-ptsd-a-century-of-invisible-war-trauma-74911


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

AmericanStand said:


> You know the American government has millions of acres in places as varied as San Francisco’s waterfront and Alaskas Brooks Range.
> You think there’d be some sort of a program or a veteran could get 5 acres and build a house and a pleasant little place?
> 
> Oh yes there was a program such as that but Ronald Reagan destroyed it.
> Then Bush buried any hope for its return.





AmericanStand said:


> You know the American government has millions of acres in places as varied as San Francisco’s waterfront and Alaskas Brooks Range.
> You think there’d be some sort of a program or a veteran could get 5 acres and build a house and a pleasant little place?
> 
> Oh yes there was a program such as that but Ronald Reagan destroyed it.
> Then Bush buried any hope for its return.


Any many empty bases that could be repurposed. Or would the government doing their dodiligence be bad for vets


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

MoonRiver said:


> I've had a similar idea for a retirement community, but the houses would be at least twice as large (about 500 sq ft) with a bigger lot.


Did it say what each one costs? I guess its a gofundme


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

https://www.veteranscommunityproject.org/
Found on another site they cost approximately $10k and are privately funded.


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

https://www.ausa.org/articles/veterans-community-project-tiny-homes-homeless-vets


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Forcast said:


> Any many empty bases that could be repurposed. Or would the government doing their dodiligence be bad for vets


Dodiligence 
Is a interesting choice of words why did you choose that work please?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> Yup every time I go to the VA. Most vets seem pleased with the care and surprised with the amount they get


Are you receiving treatment from the VA?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Oxankle said:


> How do you account for the fact that millions of service men who endured the same experiences as the PTSD patients DID NOT become unbalanced, came home, got jobs and raised their families in peace?


You assume that is true, but there is no way to know. My dad went back to college in his late 30's, got a degree in math, and worked for NASA until he retired. On the outside he appeared to be a success, but the anger and mistrust were still there.

After he died, I read a long letter he had written to the VA. He explained exactly what he had gone through while in the military, his time as POW, his wounds from being shot down (2 Purple Hearts), damage caused by starvation and freezing temperatures, abuse by the guards, etc. I remember times when I was young and a thunder storm would roll in at night. He would load everyone into the car and drive around until the storm was over. The thunder and lightening hit too close to home.

He couldn't understand why his partial disability request had been rejected by VA. It turned out, for all those years, his official record never included his time as a POW or his Purple Hearts. I remember when I was a young child, we took my dad to the train station so he could go to a rest camp. That's all that was explained to us at the time. I think he was only gone for 2 weeks. He brought a copper etching home, so I don't know what happened other than arts and crafts.

When he was in his 60's, he finally hooked up with a POW advocate that worked for the VA. For the last 10 years of his life, the VA was excellent because this woman stayed on top of everything my father needed, but for the 40 previous years the VA was AWOL.

Men of your and my dad's generation suffered in silence. 



> *PTSD in World War II Vets: Direct Relation to Alcoholism & Drug Abuse*
> 
> I am a medical marijuana doctor (with about 6000 patients) and my patients frequently asked or told me, my grandfather, father, uncle or brother rarely talked to me about their war experiences but they did drink a lot. “Is there a connection or explanation”? YEP! Re-read a couple of above paragraphs.
> 
> ...


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

This will offend someone, but it might help clarify a point. 


Definition of due diligence
1 law : the care that a reasonable person exercises to avoid harm to other persons or their property


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I see I thought that might be what you were going for.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

MoonRiver said:


> You assume that is true, but there is no way to know. My dad went back to college in his late 30's, got a degree in math, and worked for NASA until he retired. On the outside he appeared to be a success, but the anger and mistrust were still there.
> 
> After he died, I read a long letter he had written to the VA. He explained exactly what he had gone through while in the military, his time as POW, his wounds from being shot down (2 Purple Hearts), damage caused by starvation and freezing temperatures, abuse by the guards, etc. I remember times when I was young and a thunder storm would roll in at night. He would load everyone into the car and drive around until the storm was over. The thunder and lightening hit too close to home.
> 
> ...


 Lol there you are the end of your story is the key to the situation. 

You complain about the VA doing a poor job and providing lousy service when it was actually your father that failed to do his job. You complain about the VA doing a poor job in providing lousy service win it was actually your father that failed to do his job .
Why would you blame the VA for bad service?
I’d also like to point out that it’s very likely that your father got that job with NASA because of his military service and 10 point veterans preference. NASA it’s self provided extremely good health care.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol there you are the end of your story is the key to the situation.
> 
> You complain about the VA doing a poor job and providing lousy service when it was actually your father that failed to do his job. You complain about the VA doing a poor job in providing lousy service win it was actually your father that failed to do his job .
> Why would you blame the VA for bad service?
> I’d also like to point out that it’s very likely that your father got that job with NASA because of his military service and 10 point veterans preference. NASA it’s self provided extremely good health care.


Again, you don't know what you are talking about, plus you chose to be insulting just to be provocative. Some self-control might be something to think about.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

MoonRiver said:


> Again, you don't know what you are talking about, plus you chose to be insulting just to be provocative. Some self-control might be something to think about.


Who did I insult?
I only know what you told me I am going by what you told me
If your story is truthful and accurate my answer also should have been accurate. 
I just don’t understand why you would think the VA Was a failure because it did not treat your father for a condition that he did not tell them he Had. 
The VA had no way of knowing that he had been a POW or had a service related condition. 

If someone reminds me of the druggies that you see at the St. Louis VA they come in they do not trust anybody in authority and they will not even give the people at the VA their name then they complain that the VA will not treat them.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> Who did I insult?
> I only know what you told me I am going by what you told me
> If your story is truthful and accurate my answer also should have been accurate.
> I just don’t understand why you would think the VA Was a failure because it did not treat your father for a condition that he did not tell them he Had.
> ...


The VA has all medical and service records, so yeah they would know exactly what had happened during service.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol there you are the end of your story is the key to the situation.
> 
> You complain about the VA doing a poor job and providing lousy service when it was actually your father that failed to do his job. You complain about the VA doing a poor job in providing lousy service win it was actually your father that failed to do his job .
> Why would you blame the VA for bad service?
> I’d also like to point out that it’s very likely that your father got that job with NASA because of his military service and 10 point veterans preference. NASA it’s self provided extremely good health care.


I asked for clarification, which you have declined to offer. Do you receive treatment from the VA?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

SRSLADE said:


> I remember an ugly stain referring to POWs as losers. Let that sink in.


Right because all POWs I knew jumped up and down and said wow great we won the lotto we get to go to camp !
There is no dishonor in being a POW but I can’t think of a one of them that considered themselves to have won lotto of life to become a POW. 
Most POWs serve their time honorably .
To try to argue they did not lose is to dishonor their bravery and service. 
Just look at Moon River’s father went through and try to tell me they were not losers. 

except for a very tiny few who did some disgusting things they deserve our honor and encouragement and support.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

no really said:


> The VA has all medical and service records, so yeah they would know exactly what had happened during service.


 Not according to what Moon river told us in her story.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> Not according to what you told us in your story


Huh??


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

wr said:


> I asked for clarification, which you have declined to offer. Do you receive treatment from the VA?


I thought you were Canadian does it affect you in someway?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

no really said:


> Huh??


Oops I fixed it


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> I thought you were Canadian does it affect you in someway?


That's incredibly rude and shortsighted. I believe that I've been pretty honest about the fact that while I am Canadian, most of my family is American and their military service is recorded throughout your history. Several deal with your VA to this very day so I believe I do have a vested interest. 

I'm guessing it's safe to assume by your condescending tone toward me that you have not served and have no direct experience with the VA so that would discount your opinions as hearsay at best but certainly no firsthand experience to back up your condescending tone. 

I actually have taken a family member to numerous VA visits and found the appointments quite enlightening. 

If you'd like to have a discussion on Canadian veterans medical treatment, I'm capable of having that discussion too but unlike yourself, I'm not interested in the thread as just another way to diminish veterans service.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol yep exactly what I thought you were going for
A personal attack. 
My service or not has no bearing on This discussion.
Just as yours doesn’t 
And no way am I trying to diminish a veterans service


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

AmericanStand said:


> Dodiligence
> Is a interesting choice of words why did you choose that work please?


It popped in my head. I was an Army wife it seems we were trained to support our spouse not to dog them with bad news never ever dear john letters keep all communications happy light ect. If the services go this far in teaching spouse s how to behave and demand high standards of members they should totally support them when they are finished with them. My Dad was in Korea he suffered from ptsd the rest of his life. Not one doctor in his life ever gave it a name or treated it. 
.


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

It is extremely complicated to put in for, and obtain, compensation from the VA. There are 2 sides to the VA...the business side and the healthcare side. They do not communicate with each other. So, when a claim is started, the veteran has to try and gather all their medical evidence and service records that the business/compensation side might need. Then, it's reviewed by a VA rater who gets to decide, from looking at said records, whether or not the injuries are service related and how much they affect you. Then a percentage will be applied, if it's found to be service connected. I belong to several Facebook groups dedicated to veterans looking for assistance on filing claims. One such groupn is actually run by a veteran who is now a VA claims rater. I see people in these groups post all the time who were denied. Veterans who lost limbs and are crippled due to their service. The hoops that must be jumpled through are mind boggling. Nothing is automatically given. NOTHING. Even those who submit EVERYTHING the VA requires and DESERVE to be compensated, go through years of appeals, due to VA mistakes when rating their claims.

I would also like to add that a diagnosis and treatment through VA medical is not a quarantee for compensation, either. The VA does not take the word of it's own drs. Instead, every veteran who submits a claim will be subjected to exams for their claimed conditions through a contracted civilian Dr.

Veterans must apply for healthcare. Those who have service connected disability automatically receive treatment. Another way to qualify, is by meeting a certain financial criteria. If a veteran has private insurance through work, the VA bills them first and then writes off the rest. I know this because I spent 2 days in the Memphis VA being treated for double pnuemonia and sepsis. They billed my private insurance and I was not billed for anything. 

American Stand, you've been asked repeatedly, and I'm going to ask you again. I am a veteran of the USAF. Are you a veteran? If so, do you use the VA?


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> Right because all POWs I knew jumped up and down and said wow great we won the lotto we get to go to camp !
> There is no dishonor in being a POW but I can’t think of a one of them that considered themselves to have won lotto of life to become a POW.
> Most POWs serve their time honorably .
> To try to argue they did not lose is to dishonor their bravery and service.
> ...


You don't know what I'm talking about or I don't know what you're talking about.


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## dyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

PTSD appears to be a cultural issue as much as anything. It is interesting that symptoms tend not to appear until after deployment ends (again indicating a cultural component) and that vets tend to have issues when coming home to some countries and not others.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

MoonRiver said:


> You assume that is true, but there is no way to know. My dad went back to college in his late 30's, got a degree in math, and worked for NASA until he retired. On the outside he appeared to be a success, but the anger and mistrust were still there.
> 
> After he died, I read a long letter he had written to the VA. He explained exactly what he had gone through while in the military, his time as POW, his wounds from being shot down (2 Purple Hearts), damage caused by starvation and freezing temperatures, abuse by the guards, etc. I remember times when I was young and a thunder storm would roll in at night. He would load everyone into the car and drive around until the storm was over. The thunder and lightening hit too close to home.
> 
> ...


My Dad did his Korea time at 18 yrs old. When he came home he suffered with ptsd but back then it was just " knock the **** off and get to work". It was never made a condition that kept you from returning to life. It wasn't talked about like that. Dads, father in laws pretty much smacked the boys long side the head and got them back to work. At least thats how it went in my family. Dad came home Mom had alread bought a small bunglo a few houses away from her parents and married life started up again. Dad had a problem wearing long pants from being in the heat of Korea so Mid Jan dads shoveled snow in shorts.long story short Dad had night acting out dreams .Mom was brused. then granddad stepped in. He took out the full size bed put in twin beds, told dad one mark on my daughter and I'll put a boot up your geegee. For real. It work. Dad went back to work at the A&P grocery store stayed with them till he retired. My point is people back then 1950s didnt make a business out of someones condition. thing as mental, injury disability payments and military some trying to get the highest disability ratings so the can collect plus ssi. It was a given seen it with my husband when he retired they had classes to make sure you got the hightest %. Anyway people today feel that everything is owed them. We need more health and mental screenings before discharging. A work release program and dorm housing till re-entry .


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

The village idea I guess is good. Some pointed out transportation location ect. Ya that should be a given. But I wonder if the problem is drug and alcohol use. And its being blamed on being a Vet.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol yep exactly what I thought you were going for
> A personal attack.
> My service or not has no bearing on This discussion.
> Just as yours doesn’t
> And no way am I trying to diminish a veterans service


I was responding to your personal attack/mind your own business comment. As indicated, I have actually attended quite a few appointments at the VA and do have several family members utilizing their services. 

I'd also you to point out which rule indicates that Canadians aren't allowed to discuss certain subjects please.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Forcast said:


> The village idea I guess is good. Some pointed out transportation location ect. Ya that should be a given. But I wonder if the problem is drug and alcohol use. And its being blamed on being a Vet.


A certain amount of the population will have substance abuse problems and even if veterans are affected, they still need a significant amount of support to get off the streets.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

dyrne said:


> PTSD appears to be a cultural issue as much as anything. It is interesting that symptoms tend not to appear until after deployment ends (again indicating a cultural component) and that vets tend to have issues when coming home to some countries and not others.


PTSD has a cultural dimension in the sense that culture may affect how the stress reaction exhibits when it surfaces. But it isn't true that PTSD symptoms don't appear until after deployment ends. By definition, the PSTD is post-trauma, so the symptoms will be after the traumatic event. They may be shortly after or years after, and they are independent of deployment or current status in the armed forces. 

I would also reject the notion that the veterans from some countries are somehow exempt from PTSD. It may not be treated, recognized or talked about in a way that we hear about very often, but it is a malady that knows no boundaries. Not every veteran experiences PTSD (thank goodness), and we don't really know why different people react to traumatic stress differently, but we do know that it is complex.


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## dyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

The Paw said:


> PTSD has a cultural dimension in the sense that culture may affect how the stress reaction exhibits when it surfaces. But it isn't true that PTSD symptoms don't appear until after deployment ends. By definition, the PSTD is post-trauma, so the symptoms will be after the traumatic event. They may be shortly after or years after, and they are independent of deployment or current status in the armed forces.
> 
> I would also reject the notion that the veterans from some countries are somehow exempt from PTSD. It may not be treated, recognized or talked about in a way that we hear about very often, but it is a malady that knows no boundaries. Not every veteran experiences PTSD (thank goodness), and we don't really know why different people react to traumatic stress differently, but we do know that it is complex.


Well, that is the standard narrative but I'm not sure I buy it. I somehow doubt roman troops or Germanic tribes suffered from symptoms in the same amount... I could be wrong.

It is difficult to contrast countries due to genetic differences. For instance those of sub-saharan african ancestry are more likely to suffer from PTSD like symptoms than those of European ancestry but Europeans more likely than East Asians... I cant find the study right now but it wasn't really contested. There were some studies though that possibly controlled for this a bit by comparing British and American troops operating in Iraq at the same time -who have very roughly similar numbers of people of African descent. The Americans were something like more than 2x more likely to report PTSD symptoms.

Edit: I mean just think about how different the world of today is for men coming home. In the past you'd come home to some union job and spend evenings with the guys at a local pub. You went from the brotherhood of the military to the brotherhood of your local profession or class of your town -not quite the same but you had a tribe. Now, you go from being surrounded by guys you would unhesitatingly take a bullet for to being dropped off on your own and asked to operate in this artificial 9 to 5 world. That has to have an impact


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

wr said:


> A certain amount of the population will have substance abuse problems and even if veterans are affected, they still need a significant amount of support to get off the streets.


Right so its just a general population thing has nothing todo with serving your counrty. I dont know how anyone affords to use whatever dayil every day.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Forcast said:


> Right so its just a general population thing has nothing todo with serving your counrty. I dont know how anyone affords to use whatever dayil every day.


Judging by those I find on the streets in Calgary, they seem to come to a point where feeding an addition takes priority over food and shelter. Some will refuse shelters and emergency relief because they're required to be sober for the night and in my climate, that's an extremely dangerous choice and a certain number end up freezing to death.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

dyrne said:


> Well, that is the standard narrative but I'm not sure I buy it. I somehow doubt roman troops or Germanic tribes suffered from symptoms in the same amount... I could be wrong.
> 
> It is difficult to contrast countries due to genetic differences. For instance those of sub-saharan african ancestry are more likely to suffer from PTSD like symptoms than those of European ancestry but Europeans more likely than East Asians... I cant find the study right now but it wasn't really contested. There were some studies though that possibly controlled for this a bit by comparing British and American troops operating in Iraq at the same time -who have very roughly similar numbers of people of African descent. The Americans were something like more than 2x more likely to report PTSD symptoms.
> 
> Edit: I mean just think about how different the world of today is for men coming home. In the past you'd come home to some union job and spend evenings with the guys at a local pub. You went from the brotherhood of the military to the brotherhood of your local profession or class of your town -not quite the same but you had a tribe. Now, you go from being surrounded by guys you would unhesitatingly take a bullet for to being dropped off on your own and asked to operate in this artificial 9 to 5 world. That has to have an impact


Well, if this is the study, the main message seems to be that there is no scientific consensus, only a range of conflicting studies that suffer from widely different methodologies inconsistently applied.

From my look at the study culture, ethnicity and terms of deployment are 3 of at least a dozen variables at play. So these play some role, but it isn't established just what impact they had.

Https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2891773/


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

"Fact: The average infantryman in the South Pacific during World War II saw about 40 days of combat in four years. The average infantryman in Vietnam saw about *240* days of combat in one year thanks to the mobility of the helicopter. Nov 18, 2014"

WWII, 40 Days in Combat in 4 Years.
Vietnam, 240 Days in 1 Year.
2nd Gulf War, 266 Days in 1 Year.

This would vary depending on what unit you were in,.
Supply guys stay in the rear with the gear, same with Command/HQ units.
It takes 70 support people to keep 1 shooter in the field, clerk's, truck drivers, medical staff, command/communications/fire -support etc.

Then keep in mind the 'Retreads', official term "Stop Loss".
Contract expired, 6 year obligation expired, didn't matter, sent back anyway because the military needed bodies.

There is a reason Normal, Happy, Healthy people leave and don't come back anything near what they were when they left.
Mortars, artillery -High Explosives falling on you from the sky,
Rockets, Sniper fire, land mines/IEDs everywhere, all the time.
Everywhere you put a foot, every time you touch/move anything, you have to look for 'Springs & Strings' or today is your last.

That doesn't include the daily fire fights, ambushes,
No sleep because activity is 24/7/365, and outgoing fire isn't uncommon that rattles everything for miles.
Patrols happen 24/7/365, coming and going, gear/vehicles, hollering, etc.

Get out beyond the wire and you are in 'Bad Guy' country, anyone and everyone will take pot shots at you, IEDs, Rockets, Snipers, it's a ton of fun...
Every patrol is a potential ambush, ANY lapse in attention and it's over.

Then we get every disease, every illness, exposed to every chemical, radiation, etc.
And, the battle field injuries, aircraft & vehicle accidents/attacks...

I have two bullet wounds, shards of one jacket still in a lung,
2012 I had 2 feet of guts removed because missed landmine shrapnel carved it up so bad it couldn't be salvaged,
I have an ankle and lower back full of metal, two artifical knees & an artificial hip from an aircraft crash,
I'm on my 3rd set of knees & 2nd hip because the replacement joints supplied by the VA are substandard for a 35 year old,
And you have to get heavy metal poisoning from the degraded joint before you can sue to get a replacement.
My right hip and left shoulder has needed replaced since '98 and I'm still on the waiting list...

That 'Great Medical Care' is pills and wait time.
A week to get an appointment at the clinic 35 miles away, another week to the big clinic 60 miles away, another week to the first hospital visit 100 miles away, another week and 150 miles one way to the big hospital.

Patients on gurneys in the hallways with rat crap everywhere, buildings leaking, broken elevators, lights that don't work, etc
90% hospitalized contract secondary infections, and the average wait for required surgery is 4.5 YEARS.

The Clinton administration got about 50% of VA hospitals rebuilt, total losses, complete write-offs not fit for human habitation by any city standards, but he hospitals aren't city owned...

I go to a Clinton hospital since the two hospitals in my area are 100 & 108 years old, a cobbled together expansion mess that leaks, has rodents, has mold issues, doctors don't speak English, and the equipment is always broken causing me to return over & over hoping its working for the 10-15 minutes I need it...
And they can find someone to operate it.

Employees are on mandatory capped salary, work 'Off The Clock' just to take care of their patients... Which the nurses do a good job of...
There work load is enourmous.

The rumors are correct, every vet know it, the medical system is 20 years behind, they can't prescribe the new drugs, they can't use the new artificial joints, they can't use much of anything that is name brand and under patent, it has to be generic, cheap and often questionable.

Mental health care is even worse, nearly non-existent.
Current Federal 'Red Flag' laws can get your firearms ownership rights suspended and firearms revoked, your driver's licence suspended, you won't pass any job background check...
All without a court hearing or court order even though you committed no crime, threatened no one, including yourself.

Some of the people that like to rant & rave, support idiot ideas and claim to be vets using the VA system,
They probably aren't vets...
A vet in the VA system would know they are still subject to military law, the UCMJ, and can be prosecuted under the UCMJ for the things they write & say.
'Whistle Blowers' have found this out the hard way, so have several vets that made threatening/self harming remarks.

So if you want to wait 3 years for gall bladder surgery, use the VA. 
If you want to wait for a decade to get an artificial joint, use the VA.
If you want to wait at LEAST 3 weeks to see an actual doctor, that often as not doesn't speak English, use the VA outside the emergency room, if your local clinic has an emergency room...

Need to see a specialist outside the VA, expect a year of red tape & endless paperwork.
Want your files lost, have tests repeated over & over again, get sent to the back of the line over & over, use the VA.

What you don't do when you are young & dumb, get a copy of every scrap of paperwork and keep every scrap forever...
Even though you have the scar from the stitches if they can't find the medical report it didn't happen in the service.
It's even worse for the guys that went in when everything was on paper since *IF* that paper still exists, it's scattered all over the country...
You don't have your copy it takes 6 months to have a records search done if it's not in your 201 file.
If your injury/surgery wasn't done in a major military hospital IN THE US, it's probably not in your 201 file.
Few people get combat injuries inside the US...

People complain because in Canada they wait an average of 3 days longer for non-emergency surgery, but ask any vet how long they wait for surgery and 3 days is a cake walk...

Since only 3% of he population (average) are vets, we are the smallest minority in the country, very few care enough to get off their butts and do something,
The 3% are those people, and yet people complain when someone/anyone tries to do something for the 3% that took the entire load of protecting the 97%.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Funny this sould come up, I just spent about a month on the Southern Indiana Veterans Living & Rehabilitation center.
HVAC, grid intertie solar power, general wiring, heavy equipment operation, super expanding insulation, etc.

100% non-profit, 100% non-government subsidized, 
Small medical clinic staffed by 100% volunteers.
We *Hope* to pay competitive rates for medical staff in the future, but right now nobody gets paid.

'Scratch & Dent' HVAC units, bought for scrap weight and local trucking company brought in supplies.
Off spec solar panels free for shipping, most just off color.
Standardized builds, component materials come from a bulk buy and local trucking companies brought it in from all over the country.
Stoves/fridges were donated/sold cheap by big box stores, mostly scratch & dent, some repossessions.

Bed frames, desks, chairs are scratch & dent, the largest furniture manufacturers in the US are local and cleaned out the warehouses, gave them their room back.
Often times the finish was just slightly off color, brand new stuff.

The first units just came on line and more are waiting on inspection/certificate of occupancy,
Even more are under construction.

Other manufacturers have agreed to sell at cost, sinks, toilets, water heaters, paint, etc.

It has a 15,000 sq.ft. pole barn type building on the property (existing) which was upgraded to physical rehab, minor medical, drug & alcohol treatment, job training, etc.

Vets don't have to drive 100+ miles each way to get physical therapy every day...
And get training for a job they can do with worsening disabilities.
Some can't drive at all...
There is also training to pass things like driver physicals machine/heavy equipment with disabilities.
Much of the potential residents are simply seeking training for a job they can do with worsening disabilities, something the VA is supposed to do, but the wait to get into any program is LONG, and usually 100 miles or more away, so daily commutes to participate.

It cost the taxpayer exactly ZERO $$$,
It cost the community exactly ZERO $$$,
It rehabbed a formally deserted area that was an illegal dumping ground,
It took a formally abandoned, no tax producing area off the county/state tax rolls,
It's now owned by a foundation that leases the land/building for $1/year for 100 year lease.
(No one can do a land grab for the next 100 years now that it's cleaned up and developed, and the foundation just bought the meth-head trailer park/junk yard behind it)

It's veterans for veterans and supporters, we really don't care what anyone else thinks...
It's not costing the detractors a penny, no dog in the fight, so they have no say in the matter.
That's not going to keep the whiners from whining...


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

THANK YOU.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> That's not going to keep the whiners from whining..


Yes, we see them nearly every day, going on and on and on.....playing the victim and blaming everyone else.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Yes, we see them nearly every day, going on and on and on.....playing the victim and blaming everyone else.


Yep, we sure do.
A few try to improve life a little bit for someone and while they are doing the work, the peanut gallery debates the insignificant point of "who's to blame".
If that isn't bad enough, as the work is being done, it's criticized for not being a perfect solution.

Meanwhile someone out there is saying, "Can ya get me another box of nails please? Daylight's burning!"


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Jeephammer, I see you are in SW Indiana, have you tried the VA in Marion Illinois?
What are your thoughts on it if you have ?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Thanks JeepHammer, well said.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

When you say that the veterans are 3% of the population you are forgetting that they have wives children , grand children ,parents and grandparents Aunts and uncles. 
All of which feel the impact of their service. all of which can vote.
That’s a lot of support for a minority. Probably close to half the country has a direct relationship with someone active duty or veteran
And that explains why it’s probably the most popular minority in the country.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Forcast said:


> Right so its just a general population thing has nothing todo with serving your counrty. I dont know how anyone affords to use whatever dayil every day.


It's not uncommon for people to self medicate certain mental health issues with substance abuse and I do know at least one US veteran who used alcohol as an assist for pain management and PTSD treatment.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

“'Im on my 3rd set of knees & 2nd hip because the replacement joints supplied by the VA are substandard for a 35 year old,”

I have a young friend who has blown up in Iraq when he was 20 years old.
They were trying to get him through to 35 before replacing his knees because they say that they will not last a lifetime and they cannot guarantee they will be able to do more than one replacement. 
He is older than that now but still avoiding the surgery.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> When you say that the veterans are 3% of the population you are forgetting that they have wives children , grand children ,parents and grandparents Aunts and uncles.
> All of which feel the impact of their service. all of which can vote.
> That’s a lot of support for a minority. Probably close to half the country has a direct relationship with someone active duty or veteran
> And that explains why it’s probably the most popular minority in the country.


That's part of it, all the interconnections and relationships.
Some feel like I do, that there's nothing wrong with trying to help someone get their life back together, provided they _want to_ of course.
But veterans volunteered to serve their country and had to put up with more bad stuff than most of us, so IMO they should be at the front of the line when it comes to repaying our debt to them.
If they contributed to their predicament that's ok too. The debt is large enough to include a little forgiveness from us.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

JeepHammer, thank you for your service, thank you for not giving up, thank you for helping others, and thank you for helping us understand just a little bit of what our veterans go through. I wish you luck and a healthy long life. Our thanks to you will never be enough!


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

Why not put all of the fleabag scum in Hollywierd in such pathetic little shacks and put the neglected war vets into the mansions these Hollywood weirdos inhabit? I think that’s a better question.

I think the vets deserve the best.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

wr said:


> It's not uncommon for people to self medicate certain mental health issues with substance abuse and I do know at least one US veteran who used alcohol as an assist for pain management and PTSD treatment.


Alcohol, drugs, whatever, some live on rage & fear...

Someone that hasn't had bullets smacking around their heads, while trying not to trigger mines/IEDs, AND shoot back at the same time... 3 or 4 days a week, for a year on end doesn't have any idea.

If you haven't lived with someone for a year or two then had their head/guts blown all over you, you have no idea.

The he running joke is you want to stand up and get some sleep.
No one sleeps, and you are always bent over, crouched down, hand & knees...

If you haven't see what 'Extremists' do to women, children, old men, any one they deem 'Unworthy' then you have no idea.
There is a reason I pitch a fit when I see these same ideas/extremism expressed anywhere.
Either it's the law of the land, or it's the law of the jungle.
There is always someone with bigger teeth/claws in the jungle...

In 3 days, you can be from a combat zone surrounded by death, fear, rage to sitting on your sofa in the good old USA with NO decompression time.
Troops train for at least a year before they hit a combat zone, get the ultimate education in fear & death with no sleep,
Then are released back into 'Polite' society with no POST confict training... 
The FIRST thing 99% do is get stinking drunk,
When you sober up, you realize you don't have ANY idea what to do with yourself...
Everything seems insignificant and you feel like a stranger with nothing in common, an outsider,
The only time you feel like you 'Fit In' is when drunk with other drunks,
You can't stay drunk forever, so to cycle down, you take drugs, while the VA hands out like candy, and until recently, about every other doctor did too.

Medical bills pile up, you can't find work that interests you in the least (hard to do when your job was staying alive and killing bad guys), everything seems mundane.

More drinking & drugs now you are humiliated about getting fired and/or can't find work...
And the downward spiral is in full effect.

No one 'Recovers', you just learn to cope with it...
You never go back to the person you were before, that stupid, young, bright eyed kid, 
People notice the '1,000 yard stare' and you scare people...
The intense concentration doesn't do you any good in a multi-task world...
Unless you find something you can do the intense concentration works with.
I hire vets BECAUSE they will lock onto a job and don't get distracted by anything around them, we have to remind them to eat and tap them on the shoulder at quitting time.
They do best with LONG days, which an 8 hour day in a combat zone doesn't exist.
They do better with the long day pattern.
How anyone can do that on artificial legs I don't have any idea, but I have a coupe that do.

*IF* after nearly 2 years of surgeries & hospitals (so I've seen a BUNCH),
If that little nurses aid hadn't slapped me in the head and asked if my Disability was brain damage, if not, get up and DO SOMETHING... (instead of feeling sorry for myself)...

SO... I did.
I bought a homestead, since I couldn't find anything but mindless minimum wage, I started my own business.

When these guys say the vets feel sorry for themselves, 
That's not it at all.
They learned to survive, so they put themselves into a situation where those skills still work.
Clean them up, dry them out and teach them to have pride in themselves again, MANAGE the frustration that makes rage, and the often do well.

These guys will never understand we are helping our own, just like we did in the combat zones, and it works more than it doesn't.

They have exactly zero understanding, have exactly zero invested in this, the existence of the programs, and propaganda is what upsets them when it has no, zero effect on them.
They were living off grid, off welfare & disability rolls before, where they live now effects them ZERO amount.

The success of re-training them varies by program, but comprehensive has the highest success rates.

What the confused, angry, ranting types *Think* makes zero difference, no dog in the fight, no say in the matter, no 'Opionins' needed or wanted.
We don't want them to go away mad, just go away and mind their own business...


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

georger said:


> Why not put all of the fleabag scum in Hollywierd in such pathetic little shacks and put the neglected war vets into the mansions these Hollywood weirdos inhabit? I think that’s a better question.
> 
> I think the vets deserve the best.


Ever seen what PTSD does to someone in big spaces or crowds?
I appricate the sentiment!
Just not the 'Correct' way to go when PTSD is involved.

Anything larger than a rifle squad makes them WAY too nervous, even a rifle squad is too big if they don't know the people.
Too many hands to watch, too many faces to try and recognize expressions, too many people moving in random directions.

Family gatherings can be WAY too much,
Too loud, too chaotic, confined spaces with 'Strangers' since you are isolated from family with PTSD.
Children squeezing can throw you right back into survival mode,
We see the but wounded, butchered kids...

It's not fun, you can't explain it to someone that hasn't lived it, 
Which is why peer groups work better than mental health professionals sometimes, the two in conjunction are the most effective.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

And you are just one. Multiply that times the thousands that have served in these never ending wars. Think of the human cost, not just in lost life but in lives lived as you've described. I do hope there is some way to manage it and find peace. as for the rest of us who have not lived it, we have no right to judge or preach. We simply don't know what we don't know. I'm just glad you feel safe enough to share some of this with us to help us understand.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Jeep hammer if the military contacted you to create a mustering out syllabus what would your recommendations be?
To be clear I’m talking about A period of time after leaving combat but before leaving the service.

Have you noticed a difference in in the veterans that have been musterd out after being returned with wounds ?
Their experience often is an individual one leaving their unit early being flown out of theater recuperating in a place they’ve never been before with people they’ve never been with and finally Bing mustard out by themselves
No returning as a unit and decompression time With service buddies at all.
I have noticed even with those carried from the field and spending months or even years before their back on their feet I have a certain feeling of guilt for leaving their unit behind to finish the work. I know that doesn’t make any sense at all but it’s the best I can describe it


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## kotori (Nov 15, 2014)

Not even touching on politics or whatever, having a community like that could solve many issues with finding a job. Busing, either negotiated with the city or supplied by the community itself. Permanent address, being able to keep up with hygene and most importantly, having an area that is just your space. 

Converting motels would be good for non-vet homeless i think, other than the fact none of the rooms would have a kitchen. they could do dorm-style and have one room converted to a kitchen. My sister actually lived in a condo that was converted from a hotel, and the layout was odd, but definitely doable. For vets, the motels might be located in too busy an area as previously mentioned. the way the community is laid out, it gives people the opportunity to not be in close contact and if they have a good bus schedule, the opportunity to acclimate with short trips into the city or w/e.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I never understood why there was no decompression time or post service counseling or other re-integration services available for vets. Some vets have gone through things that most of us can't imagine in our worst nightmares. Yet the govt expects them to just go back to life as if their service time never happened. 

Where would you go to begin to set up a requirement that the govt provide those services?


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

JeepHammer said:


> Ever seen what PTSD does to someone in big spaces or crowds?
> I appricate the sentiment!
> Just not the 'Correct' way to go when PTSD is involved.
> 
> ...


Yes. I have PTSD due to something which occurred 10 years ago. I still get nightmares from the event.

I can’t imagine the living horrors a returning soldier must experience but were I to try to imagine, it would be enough to make one kill one’s own self I suspect.

So when I say that the parasites in Hollywierd should do this or that in the light of vets being homeless I’m giving a very strong criticism of how our culture and our values in our society are so buggered up.

That is all.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Georger
A couple of things you might want to keep in mind..
Many of those in Holly weird are veterans. Would you really take homes away from veterans to give to other veterans?

Secondly many homeless veterans are homeless by choice. 
It’s their way of dealing with other problems. 
in fact many homeless veterans actually have a home. 
My father-in-law was a homeless veteran off an on for over 20 years of his life
After his first episode after I came into the family we build him a nice home slightly bigger than the ones in the lead article
It Is out in the woods at one of his favorite spots ,you can fish in the creek from his porch and it is small enough to heat with a tiny amount of firewood
It has a hand pump and an out house. 
The rest of the family refers to it as deer camp but since it’s only 2 miles from his home with his wife it’s hard to think of it that way, we both knew what it was when we built it
At times we have simply used it for the rocking chair on the porch
But this wasn’t enough and his relationship with his wife would detiereate to the point where he would go live in an alley in Memphis or New Orleans or somesuch place for about a year
More than once I would go to sit on the porch and discover that he had returned home and was living there. 
More than once I went to sit on the porch and could tell that he had lived there for a week or two and then left. 
this man had both a home with a wife in it and a home without and yet he spent almost half of his later life living on the street
There is way more to being homeless than simply not having a home.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I don't have the big answers, no one does.

Romans used to camp their soliers outside cities for a year before they allowed them to go home.
A year of decompression routine, interacting with city dwellers, working on farms, training horses, etc.
They were encouraged to date, plan for their final separation, etc.

What the VA needs to do, 
Update the computer system and stop loosing everything!
There isn't any reason a vets medical record needs to be on paper, it could be transmitted anywhere in the blank of an eye.
There is no reason a vets medical file couldn't be copied onto a chip on their VA card.

There is no reason the VA can't hire/under rite medical students, make VA hospitals part of the educational system.
You get government money in student loans, your loans can be paid off by working in a VA hospital.
Fresh blood that isn't burned out, fresh education, fresh eyes. 
No reason they can't handle the infections, colds, flu, skin sores, boils & blisters, that kind of stuff.
In nursing school and have students loans? How about nurses aid for credit on your loans?
Exactly what 'Degree' do you need to deliver meals, clean bed pans, get extra blankets & pillows?

As for the vet centers the thread was about, why not?
They aren't costing anyone anything they don't want to donate,
Most are mostly volunteer, people that want to help, not like the 'Charities' that only 2¢-4¢ on the dollar actually gets to vets...

The Indiana wheel char lift (also called an Indy lift) was a bunch of knuckleheads on line that got together and designed a wheel chair lift with 3 safeties for under $30,000.
Disabled vets build them, most components are scrap/off fall from big manufacturers, a lawyer did the legal stuff to get them certified, and now if a vet can't pay, they still get a wheelchair lift.
When the VA finally gets around to authorizing the lift, the company gets paid.

Since they carry off a lot of scrap, they sell scrap pieces retail,
Need a 16" piece of angle iron or 6' of a specific wire but you don't want to buy a whole roll, drop by and see the Recycle store.

The lawyer (a vet with both legs missing below the knee) had the best idea ever!
It's an LLC, not a non-profit.
The LLC can do what it wants, loose money every year, accept junk, and pretty much do what they want.
No taxes since they never make anything, too busy giving away home and vehicle wheel chair lifts, building ramps, etc.

No matter how bad your disabilities are, you can sit around, have a cup of coffee, get a hotdog out of the crockpot, shoot the bull with other vets, work on some project if you feel like it...

Because most of the materials are donated junk, either free or bought for scrap weight, the lifts run about $400 instead of $3,500-$30,000
This guys came down, lived in tents, and provided a crap load of conduits, metal for brackets, etc when building the vet center.
All surplus, no charge to the vet center (other than we fed them).

I got involved because I know solar electricity.
Some units need back up power, C-pap machines, other medical devices.
Solar is a good way to keep the backup batteries charged.

We expanded simply because there were so many solar panels donated, we did solar on roofs and feed back to the grid, reducing the electric bill.
This is Indiana, so the code inspector didn't have a clue, we had to get a certified code inspector that was familiar with solar to sign off on it, but it's done.


Since I taught the other guys how to do it, they can continue, only needing the code inspector to sign off on it when they want to open more units.

It's the guys building the place, it's not like they are helpless, and we consider it therapy.
They put the units together, insulate, wire, plumb, finish and equip the units.
Now these guys can work for ANY contractor. It's job training...
They learn to frame, roof, cut in windows & doors, hang doors & windows, wire, plumb, read blueprints & wiring diagrams, hang & finish drywall...

The only thing the state does is provide a computer link (no computer) to the work force employment (unemployment office) were the guys can search for jobs.
The employer check a box they prefer vets, they pop up on this site first...

What they really need is a computer teacher, someone that can teach Microsoft and accounting/warehouse software. A guy with back/leg damage really needs a sit down job, and that's virtually all computers...
*IF* they have benefits coming, we try to get them into the local junior collages, some of those classes can be done over the internet and that's ideal for the guys locally.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> I've had a similar idea for a retirement community, but the houses would be at least twice as large (about 500 sq ft) with a bigger lot.


Within eighteen months they will be trashed, and condemned. But they won't have enough money to tear them down. But the druggies and dealers will love them.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Muleskinner. Sigh. A glimmer of gloom and doom in an otherwise sunny day.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

It’s a weird thing but almost all the education you need about computers is available....... on the computer.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

The tiny homes project in KC is going well so far. I think a tiny home is a great transitional step between homelessness and a "real" house.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

JeepHammer said:


> I don't have the big answers, no one does.
> 
> Romans used to camp their soliers outside cities for a year before they allowed them to go home.
> A year of decompression routine, interacting with city dwellers, working on farms, training horses, etc.
> ...


Definitely a good way to use available resources and improve many more lives.




> As for the vet centers the thread was about, why not?
> They aren't costing anyone anything they don't want to donate,
> Most are mostly volunteer, people that want to help, not like the 'Charities' that only 2¢-4¢ on the dollar actually gets to vets...
> 
> ...




The only problem I see with that, is it's too good an idea to have the gov't or the military be involved with it.
(Sorry, my sarcasm quota was way behind and I couldn't help myself, lol)


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Muleskinner. Sigh. A glimmer of gloom and doom in an otherwise sunny day.


Thanks, I try to help all I can.


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## kinnb (Oct 23, 2011)

we have a tiny home community for various folks coming out of the shelters here, as well as vets and other folks. by all reports, it is/has been/continues to be a success, and people do move on from it. 

http://www.thedwellings.org/about-our-program/


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> Within eighteen months they will be trashed, and condemned. But they won't have enough money to tear them down. But the druggies and dealers will love them.


With a foundation owning them, regular health & welfare checks, and active staff, I'd say this one is pretty solid. I can't speak about others.
Since if your rehab is drugs/alcohol and not physical, they have to take the screening on a regular basis, no one trusts someone addicted.

The first person that moved in needed both knees replaced and lived alone, over 100 miles from the hospital it was done at.
In the knee flexing machine, then up on his feet, then back home in just over 4 weeks.
Just a small hotel room with medical services for his post surgery.
Checking for infections, making sure the physical therapy was done correctly, making sure he ate, got washed, all the stuff a hospital or nursing home might have done that the VA doesn't provide for.

It's not like they are in prison and the taxpayer is footing the bill for everything.
Treating vets worse than prison inmates that would have had a spot in the HOSPITAL prison ward during recovery is just a difference some of us aren't willing to let slide.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> Where would you go to begin to set up a requirement that the govt provide those services?


What services *exactly* do you mean?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> Within eighteen months they will be trashed, and condemned. But they won't have enough money to tear them down. But the druggies and dealers will love them.


Depends on how they are run. We have a homeless shelter here going on 40 years now that has had great success. All donation and no tax. The churches fund most of it. Everyone there gets a job and pays 60 a week. If you do drugs or alcohol you will be back on the street. Some have cycled through there more than ten times and finally got straight. Some never do. Some all it takes is one time.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

muleskinner2 said:


> Within eighteen months they will be trashed, and condemned. But they won't have enough money to tear them down. But the druggies and dealers will love them.


This is the expansion of an already existing group of tiny homes. And, nobody is trashing nothing.

A neighbor of ours was sent to the middle East several times. By the time he was about 40? He could not take it any longer due to PTSD and so he quit the military, and his wife supported him plus their 3 kids for at least a couple of years (his wife did not talk about the details, but, her daughter talked to my daughter and so I did hear a little) .

I know that he spend many, many days in the basement of his home because he could not stand having people come and go around him. Now, his wife was a brick, and I never once heard her complain. However, if he had not had a wife who could and would do this for him, don't you think he would have ended up on the street? Because I do.

This was many years ago, and he is now doing very much better. But, for the first year or two after he came back, he simply could not have held down a job. He was fortunate enough to have a wife who could and would give him time to heal

Veterans with PTSD are not shiftless druggies. They are simply ill


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I think you can be both ill and a shiftless druggie. 
The problem is some people want to Be mad at shiftless druggies. 
i’ve never really understood why


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> What services *exactly* do you mean?


Read that entire post. It was there.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> Read that entire post. It was there.


It seemed vague to me:



Danaus29 said:


> decompression time or post service counseling or other re-integration services


I suspect what you're asking for is already available.

https://www.va.gov/
https://www.va.gov/service-member-benefits/
https://www.va.gov/careers-employment/
https://www.va.gov/housing-assistance/
https://www.va.gov/education/


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## spud (Feb 3, 2007)

I think our country sucks for sending our troops off to wars to do what? Iraq times two was a lie and is currently a hell hole. We are in Afghanistan for the last twenty years for what? Protect opium fields and make the military industrial complex rich? Everything we do overseas is only to serve the military industrial economy and then screw our veterans, their families and their communities when they come back. Why don't vet's speak out about the abuses that our leaders promote and do on a world while scale? 

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html#c1


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

It’s always amazed me that we have been able to staff are military with volunteers while doing the things above. 

As unpopular as these wars are it’s noteworthy that we have not had to institute a draft. Our last draft was during Vietnam which should give you some idea of how unpopular that war was. 
Yes I know it was a police action but it’s really hard to convince anybody that was there it wasn’t at war


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Nobody believed it was a police action.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

AmericanStand said:


> It’s always amazed me that we have been able to staff are military with volunteers while doing the things above.
> 
> As unpopular as these wars are it’s noteworthy that we have not had to institute a draft. Our last draft was during Vietnam which should give you some idea of how unpopular that war was.
> Yes I know it was a police action but it’s really hard to convince anybody that was there it wasn’t at war


it was said to be a police action in Korea and also Vietnam because it was not a declared war by the U.S. government.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

We know that. Our brothers, cousins, and classmates were killed in that war. Or got stoned.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

My Uncle died in Korea. It might not have been called a war, but it was a war


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Terri said:


> My Uncle died in Korea. It might not have been called a war, but it was a war


The prosperous South Koreans would beg to differ.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> The prosperous South Koreans would beg to differ.


As I recall, North Korea, with the help of Russia and China, invaded South Korea, and South Korean had the backing of the UN. South Korea and the UN pushed the North Koreans, China, and Russia back to the 38th parallel, which was where they started from

About a million people died, most of them civilians.I think the South Koreans would agree that it was a war.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Terri said:


> About a million people died, most of them civilians.I think the South Koreans would agree that it was a war.


That's what I said too. I was trying to put emphasis on what you said.

If it wasn't for us and the UN the ones in South Korea would not be prosperous right?


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## kotori (Nov 15, 2014)

AmericanStand said:


> It’s always amazed me that we have been able to staff are military with volunteers while doing the things above.
> 
> *As unpopular as these wars are it’s noteworthy that we have not had to institute a draft*. Our last draft was during Vietnam which should give you some idea of how unpopular that war was.
> Yes I know it was a police action but it’s really hard to convince anybody that was there it wasn’t at war


Because as bad as it is, there will be people who see it as their only option to get away from family/get an education. they convince themselves that the problems they hear are exaggerated, or only happen to other people. 

On the other hand you get the people who join for the violence of it.
between the two, its been enough. If it ever wasn't and they instituted a draft, that is when the real protests would start.


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