# Our Solar Endeavors



## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

I don't hang out in here but Jnap suggested I drop by and post about our solar adventures. So here I am and you can throw rocks at him if you don't like my post. :hobbyhors 

Disclaimer: My husband is doing all the research and work on our solar power. I know a little of it, but if you have questions I'll be happy to ask him and regurgitate back what he says. Anything stupid is my fault because I'm misquoting my husband.

We live in an old farm house that has a hand dug (25 foot) well and is heated with wood stove and gas. We cook with gas. Like most here we are trying to become more self sufficient.

We determined that hydro and wind aren't realistic energy options on our property. Thus we have decided to implement a little solar power, learn from it, and grow as we are able to afford it.

Our first implementation is going to be a new well pump and pressure tank, powered by solar panels. The old pump and pressure tank are small capacity and low pressure. The pump is always cutting on (even for a single toilet flush) and our electric bill is pretty darned high as a result. The new pump and pressure tank will be larger capacity and higher pressure. That should make for more pleasant showers and less energy draw.

We are going with an off grid style 24 volt system.

We are getting six Kyocera KC 130 TM solar panels rated at 130 watts. They are more expensive than other brands but they are rated based on output on a "bad" day rather than optimum output. Longevity is supposed to be good. Customer service is supposed to be good.

The panels are going to be mounted on racks on the southern-facing slope of our roof; we will have to climb up there twice a year to adjust the angle of the panels. There are motorized racks that adjust themselves but for us it wasn't worth the money.

For the pump we are getting Rolls deep cycle lead acid batteries; these are 2000 amp hour storage batteries.

The pump is a 24v Dankoff booster pump rated to 90 psi.

My husband opted to use a Zantrex power distribution panel which includes the inverter and circuit breakers. It also does the battery maintenance.

When we know how well the six panels handle the pump load, we plan to add a SunDanzer 8.1 cubic foot DC freezer. 

We have proritized thus: We figure potable water is our prime consideration, with the freezer being second. After the freezer we'll probably add solar hot water. Final additions would be a Staber washing machine and Sunfrost refrigerator - not sure what order we'll put those in. There are so many alternatives for lighting and heating that we probably won't ever go solar with those. 

We are wanting a Staber washing machine because although they are not DC they have a more even power draw and don't have the big spikes that most washers have.

So... them's our plans.
We just ordered the solar panels, racks, power distribution panel, pump and pressure tank for the well, and freezer. That stuff is getting delivered now, a bit at a time. Not sure when we'll start actually putting it all in. Everything else has to wait until we figure out what we're doing and have the time and money to deal with it.

I'll post in this forum about how things are going - what works, what doesn't, how our plans change and why, etc.


----------



## jnap31 (Sep 16, 2005)

Thanks for posting that sounds like a great start to being energy independent, I look forward to updates. The first part of your post made me anxious I sure hope I dont get any rocks tossed my way remember "he who is without sin shall cast the first stone" LOL


----------



## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Kyocera is quality all the way.

BooBoo


----------



## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

What did your set up cost so far?


----------



## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

I have found that pumping water with a hand pupmp was adequate for our family of five plus a few animals, and saved the expensive solar generated electricity for things like lights, refrigeration, radio, etc.

2000 amp hour batteries are a bit large to keep charged with only 780 watts of pv panels, so you will need to keep a close eye on them. I hope you are including a Trimetric meter or something similar to monitor battery condition and electrical use from the battery.

We got our first PVs in 1981 (4 Arco M51s), and they are still working fine. We added 12 Kyocera 125G panels a couple of years ago, and feel that they are a good value.

Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress.


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Get as large a pressure tank as you can find, and or, add a second
pressure tank in series.

I shure like my Staber.


----------



## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

ZealYouthGuy said:


> What did your set up cost so far?


About 12K so far. We ordered the stuff from the Alternative Energy Store (http://www.altenergystore.com).

Breakdown of the large-ticket items:
The panels were $3500 for six
The batteries were $3900 for six
Pump was $500
Freezer was $950
Power Panel / Inverter was $1400

The rest was mostly stuff like cables, fuse block, lightning arrestor, connectors, etc.

Shipping was pretty high - about $800 total; some came by UPS but some had to come by semi truck.

That's kind of an amusing story, there - we live down a long gravel drive, and the last part is a fairly steep downhill slope ending in a 90 degree turn. So the semi truck can't deliver down to the house. So we asked our local feed store if it would be okay for the truck to pull in there and us to meet the truck and offload the items to our pickup and trailer, which we did. Folks around here are super nice and always willing to help out however they can.


----------



## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

WisJim said:


> I have found that pumping water with a hand pupmp was adequate for our family of five plus a few animals, and saved the expensive solar generated electricity for things like lights, refrigeration, radio, etc.


We've talked about a hand pump as a backup in case of mechanical failure, but for us not having to hand pump the water is a big deal - funny how different folks prioritize, isn't it? 

We decided we'd rather light oil lamps or run LED lights than pump water. We have a hand-crank radio for emergencies when there's no power (plus a battery powered boom box).

We like showers rather than baths most of the time, and we don't use composting toilets - we flush. That could all be changed, of course, but we chose the well pump as the first thing we wanted to solarize.

I think it's interesting seeing what folks choose to tackle first, what they'll do by hand (and enjoy it), and what they'll automate if they can.


----------



## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

WisJim said:


> 2000 amp hour batteries are a bit large to keep charged with only 780 watts of pv panels, so you will need to keep a close eye on them. I hope you are including a Trimetric meter or something similar to monitor battery condition and electrical use from the battery.


Hubby says it's true we have overkill on the batteries, but they were on sale.  

Our plan is to start with this setup (enough panels to run the pump, the freezer and charger, we hope) and if that goes well we will add more panels and more devices (hot water, refrigeration, washing machine) and the batteries should allow for some growth plus we'll probably end up adding batteries on down the road.

My husband came up with a plan and consulted with a guy at Alternative Energy, and the guy there felt the plan was workable and conservative. 

The functionality of a trimetric meter is built into the inverter/controller panel we got. Here's a link. We got the charge controller and digital meter options on ours. That added about $500 on top of the $1400 cost I quoted in my reply to ZealYouthGuy.



> We got our first PVs in 1981 (4 Arco M51s), and they are still working fine. We added 12 Kyocera 125G panels a couple of years ago, and feel that they are a good value.


Really? 26 years? That is awesome! I told my husband this and he was pretty excited. :dance:


----------



## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

turtlehead said:


> The functionality of a trimetric meter is built into the inverter/controller panel we got. Here's a link. We got the charge controller and digital meter options on ours. That added about $500 on top of the $1400 cost I quoted in my reply to ZealYouthGuy.
> 
> Really? 26 years? That is awesome! I told my husband this and he was pretty excited. :dance:


I didn't see the trimetric or Xantrex's version on the list of features or options. I prefer a SW series (closer to a real sine wave instead of the DR's modified square wave) as it is easier on motors, etc. I also think that aOutback MX60 MPPT (Maximium Power Point Tracking) charge controller is well worth the hundreds of dollars extra compared to a C40 or C60 charge controller because it allows a higher panel voltage, reducing line loss in the wires from the panels to the charge controller, and the Outback MX60 also has lots of metering and monitoring features built into it. I saved enough money in wire costs to pay for the MX60 in my system, because I could connect my panels as 48 volts to charge my 24 volt system.


----------



## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

turtlehead said:


> Hubby says it's true we have overkill on the batteries, but they were on sale.
> 
> Our plan is to start with this setup (enough panels to run the pump, the freezer and charger, we hope) and if that goes well we will add more panels and more devices (hot water, refrigeration, washing machine) and the batteries should allow for some growth plus we'll probably end up adding batteries on down the road.
> 
> ...


My panels are 10 years old now,monocrystaline BP-275(75 watt).Still look brand new and still put out rated power.I honestly believe they will outlast me,Im 50 soon.

I would only have changed from mod sine to pure sine wave inverter,you will regret that choice,and if they will offer a refund if you upgrade to an SW series inverter,do so,you wont be sorry.Trust me on this.The power is cleaner than utility power in some cases.BILs is a workhorse,real quality.

As for the c-40-60 controllers,they are workhorses,again I prefer MPPT controllers,but the quality of the c-40 is good,very good.

Great hardware all in all.Any proven name brand panel is very good,except for just a few rare dud runs/models,stay away from non name if you want a really nice system,no china garbage panels at this time.

Staber,my next washer.

BooBoo


----------



## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

WisJim said:


> I didn't see the trimetric or Xantrex's version on the list of features or options.


I believe that's the PO-DVM/C40: Digital meter with LCD display installed on the front of the C40. Tells the charge level off your batteries as charged by your solar panels. Measures volts, amps and amp*hours.

The rest of your post is way beyond my ability to respond to. I'll pass it along to my husband. I do appreciate your comments - it's nice to hear from someone who has been doing this for a while.


----------



## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

The C40 with the meters is just a charge controller, while a Trimetric keeps track of amp-hours used from or put into the batteries. The meters on the C40 will tell what you are using or charging at the moment, but don't give you a record of what has been used, or how charged (per centage of charge) the batteries are. A Trimetric is easily added, though.


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Great post Turtle! Very interesting to read how others are taking on the job.


----------



## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

Hi Turtlehead, I just read your thread here and see a lot of things I've decided on along the way being similar, cept no husband to tackle the technical stuff  

I have a Morningstar 60 amp controller with digital display and a trimetric. I still have trouble understanding all the information I'm getting.  
I just added a small Sundanzer fridge (you can see my threads on it on this forum) and am very happy with it. Far happier with the price tag and energy consumption than with a Sunfrost upright. The pump you purchased can be delicate and I opted not to buy it for that reason. Right now I have a regular a/c pump run by generator. The water goes from a shallow spring well to a 110 gallon pressure tank which actually only stores about 40 gallons of water. I need the pressure to run the tankless water heater which ignites on water pressure. I have a 12v shurflo for livestock, garden, and utilty washes outside to save the generator (which I really, really dislike). Someday I would like to buy a better 12v pump, somethinglike a heavy-duty shurflo  to supply the house but for nowI can't even think about it. The Staber is also on my to buy list. I hope next year


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Yes the system that you describe should at the very least have the likes of a Trimetric. It is like the fuel gage on your car. It will let you see how much has been put into the bats (by the PV) and how much you are taking out with a load such as your water pump.
It will give you much more battery info than just the *voltmeter* on the C40.
Also if its not to late , upgrading to a sinewave inverter will be better in the long run.
The Staber will be happier with a sinewave inverter.


----------



## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

Thanks for the clarification on the trimetric. I'll pass that info along. 

I also mentioned the pure sine thing on the inverter and he said what we have does do a pure sine wave but I re-read the specs and it does say modified sine wave power inverter so I'll mention this to him again.

There is so much info to try and absorb, and so many bits and pieces to keep track of, it gets a bit overwhelming, doesn't it? Y'all's input is greatly appreciated.

Marcia - I'm interested in hearing how you like that chest-style fridge. I've only ever used uprights. Your place is to die for beautiful. Never mind the floors and cabinetry. A bit at a time, right? It seems to take us forever to get anything done even with both of us plugging away and both of our incomes. You amaze me with what you have accomplished solo. I'm just dumbstruck.


----------



## jnap31 (Sep 16, 2005)

turtlehead said:


> There is so much info to try and absorb, and so many bits and pieces to keep track of, it gets a bit overwhelming, doesn't it? .


You can say that again


----------



## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

turtlehead said:


> Marcia - I'm interested in hearing how you like that chest-style fridge. I've only ever used uprights. Your place is to die for beautiful. Never mind the floors and cabinetry. A bit at a time, right? It seems to take us forever to get anything done even with both of us plugging away and both of our incomes. You amaze me with what you have accomplished solo. I'm just dumbstruck.


That's very sweet of you to say. It is a huge work in progress and sometimes I just say "what on Earth was I thinking?!" Some days are better than others. Days like today, I just feel like going back to bed and crying and then you and others make a nice comment and I remember how much has been done in the past year just a little at a time  Far from romanticizing the lifestyle anymore but I think you'll find there's a part of you that dies and a part that is reborn. I'll follow your adventures now  

For a small household, or even as a secondary fridge for a larger off grid household, I dont think the Sundanzer has any competition. It's been on "6" since it was set up (7 is coldest) and the bottom freezes which is perfect for me since I have no freezer. It doesn't freeze contents, it just keeps them super cold to last longer. When I buy ground meat on sale for my dogs, it hardens and keeps. I can realistically set it even higher and use even less energy, even when the house temp is low to mid 90's. But it uses so little that I enjoy the freezing effect. The top where two baskets hang contains all the little things and the fruits and veggies and they are perfectly kept. Having used a cooler for so long, the chest style came quite naturally. The catalog said only the larger model had a light but my smaller 5.8 cf model also has a light. Now if you have children or will have children, I don't think the chest stye will work for younger ones due to the reaching over .


----------



## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

Marcia, Great summary review of the chest style fridge. I didn't even know refrigerators were available in that style. We have kids but they're all bigger than I am now so no worries there 

Well my husband thought he had ordered a true sine wave inverter and he's disappointed that this one is a modified sine wave inverter but upon reconsidering everything we've decided to stick with this one that we've ordered. It won't be used to power anything big like a Staber washing machine - just charging a cordless drill, a laptop, maybe running a blender or wheat grinder. For those purposes this inverter fits the bill nicely, it's more efficient, and cheaper to purchase. A good learning setup. 

I mean, you can read all the books and magazine articles and websites, but until you plug something in, in YOUR yard and work with it, you don't really know what to expect. I think we'll stick with this small setup at least through the winter and then decide how we want to grow.

We talked about the trimetric too, and the C40 digital meter has a USB port on it, so he's going to use the PC to monitor the system over time. Thus, no trimetric needed.


----------



## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Yikes,a laptop is on of the things that run poorly or not at all on modified sine wave,they can overheat,even cause fires(so its reported).Wall warts,those plug in things,run poorly on mod sine wave too,though I havent had that problem with mine.Anything with a digital clock,like a micro,wont run on modified sine wave.
The DR series is really an older inverter.
Not trying to rain on your parade,just trying to help.

Please research more on mod sine wave vrs pure sine wave uses.

I have mod sine wave,its workable but has limitations.

Youve purchased such a nice system,hate to see you get shortchanged from an excellent system by that inverter.

BooBoo


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

What if you run your computer through one of those power backup/filter things?


----------



## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

I'm running a laptop on a modified sine wave inverter right now and the screen flickers a tiny bit but otherwise it is acceptable. The cordless phone hums and that's annoying. These were not problems with my true sine wave inverter. But it will power my juicer, charge the lanterns and cordless tools. I paid something like $39 (400watts) on clearance at Lowe's for it as opposed to almost $300 for the 600 watt true sine wave. Some inverters are not meant to be used daily. Didn't know that when I purched the Samlex but what killed it was a volt spike from the controller, not the daily use. The Samlex will power the Staber. Not sure if I read somewhere that it needed true sine wave.


----------



## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

My samsung monitor speakers hum on mod sine wave.My sony stereo,wont run at all.Microwave dead in the water,wont light the digital control/clock.

TV and sat run great;refer and freezer ok but a light hum.Cordless phone ok.Desktop computer ok.CF lights ok.

I cant remember for sure if it ran ok through the computer backup,(I 'think' it still hummed),as we unplug that and go direct to the backup power system and not waste juice charging the computers backup battery.

BooBoo


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Mod sign wave inverters will smoke some cordless drill bat chargers........like it or not.
I do not have a list of those that will smoke (fry--burn up) in front of me.
All motors run much hotter on mod sign therefore shortning their life.
Yes mod sign inverters have powered a lot of stuff for lots of folks for quite some while. But then there was no sign wave inverters available back then. 
Today any body "starting from scratch" should really think sign wave. The price tag should not be an issue.

The USB port on the C40 will ONLY tell you puter how much your PV system has put into the batterys.
It will NOT give you any idea of what you have used out of the bats-----ie- your loads.

It would be a mistake for any battery bank - big or small - not to know what goes in and what comes out.
You will not know if your bat bank is under charged (Not a good thing)

Edit to add; The backup filter thing will NOT change the wave form---which is the issue here. It is intended to filter out electrical *noise and spikes* that come in on that wonderful grid line.
No more no less..............


----------



## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

I appreciate everyone's input. Booboo, your remark about not wanting to rain on my parade but wanting to be helpful and have me come out of this with a positive experience was especially thoughtful and very much appreciated. It's easy for my feelings to get hurt when I'm feeling overwhelmed, so that was an especially nice comment you made. And I know the rest of you are making suggestions and passing on warnings out of a desire for this to go well for us. Thank you.

Like I said, my husband was disappointed when he realized he'd purchased the modified sine inverter - but, some experimentation should show us what we can and can't run effectively from it. And it's just one 15 amp circuit, not an entire system. Gotta kind of look on the bright side at this point, and use it as a learning experience.

We definitely have pure sine as our long term goal.

And I'm sure if the USB port doesn't pass along adequate data we'll be getting a trimetric. Knowing your input/outgo is essential for a well functioning system.

Ross, we currently run our computers through a UPS; I don't know if that will change or not but computers are going to stay on commercial electric for quite a while so I doubt he's even considered that yet.


----------



## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

mightybooboo said:


> Yikes,a laptop is on of the things that run poorly or not at all on modified sine wave.....


I've always wondered why people even try this. Laptops are DC powered so why bother converting it to AC so you can convert it back? Get a variable rate DC to DC converter. Set it at the voltage that your power supply puts out and plug it directly into the laptop. I've even seen DC-DC converters that are made for this that are set at the 18.5 volts output that most laptops run on.


----------



## Ramblin Wreck (Jun 10, 2005)

Thanks Turtlehead...and Jnap for sharing the info.


----------



## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Trimetric,great device but dont HAVE to have it.

I dont have it on the Motorhome,just the charge controller,when its charging at 0.1 amps,I know Im charged.

BIL with SW inverter uses the voltage.Again,not the best,but his 8 L-16s are will over 10 years old now.When he hits the low voltage he is set at,its generator time.Probably not all that accurate,then again the SW is set up to do just that.

Trimetric would be far better,for 200 its hard NOT to have one on a home system.But folks do.

Yep,its hard to write to folks about this and not feel you are being critical,why the disclaimer.I get overwhelmed on the computer upgrades,after a few hours looking at stuff to upgrade,Im so overwhelmed and prices just keep exploding,why I STILL have a 1.4 CPU.It works OK,so I just leave it for now.

You have a good system,with quality components.Very good components.The little bit of upgrading will come once youre ready for em.Once its setup,you'll be a nut on it,ask Tango how fast it goes from overwhelming to easy as pie.

Youre flat out going to love your system,ENJOY,I would be thrilled with what you have.

BooBoo


----------

