# Opinions wanted



## Sparrow (Sep 23, 2003)

Can anyone tell me what exactly 160 watts will power? What would I need to get in addition to this kit, battery etc? Would this support a 220 appliance? Is it a good price? Please feel free to add any other information you want to, just please, make it in simple minded English. lol


160 Watt 12VDC RV solar power system with 1500 Watt pure sinewave inverter

The 160W RV Solar Kit is a complete power system package ideal for full-time RVers. It features a powerful 160 watt solar charging system and a pure sine wave 1500 watt inverter. Dry camping freedom without a generator. Everything you need to make your RV ready for the road.










Components include: 
160 watt solar charging system (2x 80 watt solar modules)
1500 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter for AC power
Expander Kit
Digital solar charge regulator 
DC Inverter Install Kit
Z Brackets with Expansion Plugs for panel installation flat to vehicle

Ideal for full-time RV use. 
It is hard to beat our price for a complete 160 watt "plug and play" solar system with quality solar panels and pure sine wave inverter. Other battery charging options and mount options available, contact us for details. 
$2199.00


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Can you put in a link?I would like to see who makes the components.
160 watts doesnt run much,a couple lights and a small tv maybe.

BooBoo


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## Sparrow (Sep 23, 2003)

Here you go

http://www.solarelectricsupply.com/systems/rv/rv-solar-inverter-kit.html#snowbird


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

well its kinda misleading look at whats going on. are you looking at driving an appliance 24 hours, and you have sunlight for 8 hours then 160w x 8 hours x 60%eff / (24 hours x 120 volts) = 0.25 amps or a 30 watt appliance.

or if you plan on driving an appliance for 30 minutes. 160w x 8 x 60% / (.5 x 120 volts) = about 13 amps or 1500 watts.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Ahh......where ya gonna be to get 8 hours of PV usable sunlight ... ?

1. What make of PV pannels..........??
Yes there are some to avoid.......

2. What make of inverter..........??
Yes there are some.............

3. What make of charge controller........??
Yes there................

$. Batterys........??????????????

Those package deals to me are suspect.....


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

yeah, agreed, i would also look hard at "Pure Sine" wave i wonder if the name of the company is Pure or if they are describing the sinusordial wave form... kinda like a modified sine wave is nothing but a modified square wave.

one of my favorites is,,, motor "developes" 5 hp.


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## dennisjp (Mar 3, 2006)

Sparrow, in plain english, as best I can,
160 watts x an average of 8 hours a day, give or take, according to where you live = 1280 watts per day. 
That wouldn't run a 1500 watt electric heater for an hour, if you had new batteries and the sun truely shines directly on the panel perfectly for the entire 8 hours, which it will not do very often. 
Solar panels are extremly costly for what you get out of them. They are a beautiful animal, if you can afford them, but this system is no where close to being able to use 220/240 appliances for even short periods of time, such as 15 minutes for anything that draws even 2 amps at 220/240 volts. 
Another thing is I doubt that the inverter even produces 220/240 volts. It is more than likely only 120 volts. 


While we are trying every ones brain here, let me pick a little. If one were to hook up a automobile alternator to a staionary bike, how many watts could you get out of it, say in an hours ride????????????????????????
Just wondering if any one knew of any studies that were done, sorta like the calorie thing for exercise bikes????


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## wy0mn (Sep 18, 2003)

dennisjp,
You've probably seen this link before but, well, here it is again...

http://www.windstreampower.com/humanpower/hpgmk3.html

I don't have a clue about the auto alternator.
Lex


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

At a very rough guess, based on what my PV panels actually produce on an annual basis, PV panels rated at 160 watts would produce about 6 tenths (0.6) of a kilowatt hour of electricity in an average day, here in Western Wisconsin. (My 1500 PV array produces almost 6kw-hrs a day on an annual basis.)

That would run 100 watt light bulb for 6 hours, to put it in simple terms.


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## Sparrow (Sep 23, 2003)

Thanks for the info.

I've heard praises for years for solar power so I finally got my DH to agree to it only to find out it's not as praiseworthy as I was led to believe. Geez!! 

Is there any form of alternative energy that is? 

We live in an RV and are trying to be as self sufficient as possible, but finding out that nothing is that "possible". Talk about getting discouraged, I'm beginning to wonder if we're going to make it when TSHTF, or if it's even worth trying.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

I think solar PV is a way to go....but its not easy or cheap. if it were you'd see them everywhere. it takes a large investment and a lifestyle change. some of the kits are put together and sold as a simple/quick fix for power production, when the numbers are looked at....not that easy. i use solar in a few places on the farm to power fence chargers. i saving for pv panels to install on a remote cabin i hope to build. 

if someone could double the efficiency of the panels.....then you'd see lots more of them on houses. 

solar cost, hale damage
wind cost, tall tower, lack wind, damage due to icing and high winds
hydro, got to have toporgarphy, cost, damage due to flooding

with our lifestyle, there is no easy answer now.


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## WanderingOak (Jul 12, 2004)

dennisjp said:


> While we are trying every ones brain here, let me pick a little. If one were to hook up a automobile alternator to a staionary bike, how many watts could you get out of it, say in an hours ride????????????????????????
> Just wondering if any one knew of any studies that were done, sorta like the calorie thing for exercise bikes????


Auto alternaltors are designed to operate at higher RPMs than most bicycles do. If you think about it, a modern car idles at about 1000RPM. Unless you are Lance Armstrong, you would have to gear up by a factor of 50-100:1 in order to get the alternator spinning fast enough.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Solar in an RV,I can answer.
450 watts will run it well,but not A/C or electric coffee,anything for heat just eats up too much power.

3-150 watt panels can be had for 1800-2000 dollars,a 200 dollar controller,a couple 75 dollar trojan t-105 batts(maybe more,not sure price) and a 100 bucks of wire and a fuse to a 100 dollar mod sine wave inverter.

2500 bucks and got a Good RV system,you will need your genny a few times a month(overcast,rain),or for A/C or electric coffee and hairdryer,but MIGHT be enough for all but A/C.

An RV is an application where solar electric shines!

BooBoo


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

ace admirer said:


> solar cost, hale damage


Ace,ive been through some serious hale,it takes a LOT to crack a panel,but hasnt happened to me yet.Bet you pros have seen it though.

BooBoo<----strictly Novice.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

We had hail large enough to dent the corrugated roof on a garage, and punch holes in an asphalt roof, about 22 years ago, but it didn't damage the glass faced PV panels at all. As a matter of fact we are still using the PVs.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Sparrow, Be not discouraged..........
Please keep your thoughts going on renewable energy.
Just don't get traped by some "cheapy" suppliers into thinking that the low low dollar package of unknown parts will "DO ALL"
It wont.

You need to decide what your loads are going to be and then get suitable equipment.

PV is providing the energy--right now--for me to be using this puter.
But then I've got quite a few bucks into this system.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

Sparrow said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> I've heard praises for years for solar power so I finally got my DH to agree to it only to find out it's not as praiseworthy as I was led to believe. Geez!!
> 
> ...



i would guess that if you have the topography and water that hydro would be the most stable bet for alternative energy production. wind power is another good bet but it is not totally predictable just as solar exposure is not totally predictable.

even with a lack of "head", hydro is feasible. an undershot waterwheel on a slow moving stream will work. there are many options for hydro depending on the hydro that is local.

i am a big fan of hydro power.

i can see how flooding could be dangerous to a waterwheel just as a great storm oculd be dangerous to a windmill. i think there could be ways to build a waterwheel that would allow it to float on the flood waters.


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## Sparrow (Sep 23, 2003)

Meloc, unfortunately, I don't have any water around me. I also am a big fan of hydro power, lobbyed for it in Maine back in the early 70's.

Mightyboo, It's an RV that I want to power but I need the AC.

Jim-mi, too late, I'm already discouraged. lol I don't have the bucks right now to invest in the size I would need.

The situation is, I finally talked my DH into getting solar after I tried to apply to get power on my land. I say tried because I was turned down, not because anything was wrong with the land but because we're owner financing the land and our name isn't on the deed. Talk about a bunch of crap, which I just happened to mention in the building codes office, I think I'm banned from there now. lol 

The stupid thing is, in order to get power you have to get a flood plan okay but we didn't have to when we put the septic in, seems that a septic would be more of a concern in a flood zone than a power pole. :shrug: 

So this afternoon I called the guy we're financing from and he agreed to go get the permit for us. He also told me about another piece of land he sold in the same county. Seems the guy who bought that piece lives in NC and is/was going to build a house on the property he bought in SC, building codes turned him down because he lived in NC. They said if it was farmland then it would be different, so now he has to buy a cow just to get power to build his house. :shrug: 

I'm thinking of running for county commissioner next time around, I'll run on the property rights platform.


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## dennisjp (Mar 3, 2006)

Go for it Sparrow. It's easier to get started in a small seat like that than you think. Alot of TV stations give you some free news time when everyone is watching if you have fund raisers and things. 
I would like to but it would be likely that I wouldn't make it through the first meeting without going to jail for assault, lol.


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## dennisjp (Mar 3, 2006)

wy0mn said:


> dennisjp,
> You've probably seen this link before but, well, here it is again...
> 
> http://www.windstreampower.com/humanpower/hpgmk3.html
> ...


Thanks wyOmn. No I hadn't seen this and had wondered many times how many watts a person could make like this. It seems like an ideal setup for a true emergency and what they have for sell seems simple enough for nearly anyone to build useing an old bike, auto alternator, and battery set up.
Thanks again.


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## dennisjp (Mar 3, 2006)

MELOC said:


> i would guess that if you have the topography and water that hydro would be the most stable bet for alternative energy production. wind power is another good bet but it is not totally predictable just as solar exposure is not totally predictable.
> 
> even with a lack of "head", hydro is feasible. an undershot waterwheel on a slow moving stream will work. there are many options for hydro depending on the hydro that is local.
> 
> ...


I have been beating my brain for years on that one MELOC, and given the right location, I am sure it would work, but I have another idea.
If you had a stream that you could build a 2 foot dam across just to funnel the water into a pipe.
If you had enough head you could pipe it downstream but out of the stream for a water wheel and have it dump with the water exiting in the direction the wheel is to turn and if that won't work, well, I'm going to go get another piece of corn. LOL
But for real, I think you could build a floating wheel system with an undershot wheel as you said. 
There is a river (it's really just a really large creek) where I live that 20 years ago you could have bought a half mile stretch for $100 an acre and I passed it up. Thought I would find something better and now would give my, whatever for. Actually, I could only buy one side here and the other side up or down stream and I needed both sides to damn it up a little for the intake, or even an undershot wheel. Never had enough money or the time to do it anyway. Atleast not both at the same time.


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## dennisjp (Mar 3, 2006)

WanderingOak said:


> Auto alternaltors are designed to operate at higher RPMs than most bicycles do. If you think about it, a modern car idles at about 1000RPM. Unless you are Lance Armstrong, you would have to gear up by a factor of 50-100:1 in order to get the alternator spinning fast enough.


If Lance Armstrong got on a bike like this he could probably make 500 watts an hour for several in a row, but I know I can't do it. 
However, my 16 speed bike has a final ratio of a hair over 4 turns of the wheel for each turn of the pedals. 
With a 26" tire turning a 2" pulley, that is 52 to one ratio. That x 1 revolution of the pedals per second would be 3120 rpm on the alternator. 
It would probably take someone like Armstong to turn it that fast for any amount of time but as you said, 1,000 rpm's is idle speed for some cars. Actually, 600 to 800 is where most are designed to idle, and they put out more watts (or amps at higher RPM's) but that wasn't really my question. 
A bike could be built to do just this and I am sure you could get some wattage out of it, how many, I don't know. 
Question is How many watts can a man truelly put out for lets say an hour. And then again, would it even be worth the watts you could put out compared to the food you would eat to replace the calories burned.
I know I had a little alternator/light outfit on a bike when I was a kid and the faster I went the brighter the light got. I'm sure you have seen them. We used to turn it upside down and use it for light when we camped out in the back yard, in the good old days. I have no doubt one could make enough electricity for a radio and even a light or two with it.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

dennisjp said:


> ...Question is How many watts can a man truelly put out for lets say an hour. And then again, would it even be worth the watts you could put out compared to the food you would eat to replace the calories burned....


Many stationary exersice bikes have a watts display. I could not maintain any of them that I have tried at a 100wph rate for over 15min. Visit the gym and see what you can do.


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## dennisjp (Mar 3, 2006)

wy_white_wolf said:


> Many stationary exersice bikes have a watts display. I could not maintain any of them that I have tried at a 100wph rate for over 15min. Visit the gym and see what you can do.


That would be enough for a radio in an emergency, and say one 13 watt flourecent light which puts out more than a 50 watt incandlecent bulb. It seems like 10 mins. an hour would keep a battery charged well enough for that. Not very much I admit, but better than sitting in complete dark with no radio, IMHO. Just a thought.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

dennisjp said:


> That would be enough for a radio in an emergency, and say one 13 watt flourecent light which puts out more than a 50 watt incandlecent bulb. It seems like 10 mins. an hour would keep a battery charged well enough for that. Not very much I admit, but better than sitting in complete dark with no radio, IMHO. Just a thought.


Shake-a-lite flashlite and a hand crank radio accomplish the same at less cost and would be easier to store for an emergency.


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## dennisjp (Mar 3, 2006)

Wolf, you are right. I forget that out teck has grown so fast, but I do like an overhead light, lol.


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## patarini (Nov 19, 2004)

Hey its not that big of a deal to get solar == just do it slow! My house runs off 2 panels(200 watts) 2 storage batteries and a charge controller, and a big modified sine wave inverter. total cost so far, 1200 maybe? Then add panels etc as you get money. I do run a charger once/twice a week in winter, but I am in the bottom of a valley and only get 6 hrs sunlight or so per day. I started with one panel and one battery! You can always charge up from you pickup or car when getting started! good luck!


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## Sparrow (Sep 23, 2003)

UPDATE:

I spoke yesterday with the guy we're buying the land from, he agreed to go to building codes and get the permit for us and the good news is, they'll give us power, the bad news is, I have to go apologize, the other good news is, I AIN'T GONNA, IT AIN'T HAPPENIN! 

It has totally pist me off, the audacity and arrogance of those people who think they can blackmail people and hold the permit hostage. This whole thing, in my opinion is totally illegal. First to blackmail me and second to refuse to give a permit to the "owner" of the property even though he wasn't involved in any way. I guess I'll be seeing a lawyer. 

Furthermore, I was allowed (don't you just love that word) to get a septic installed in my name and I could get a water tap, if I wanted to pay their extortionist price, in my name, on land that supposedly doesn't belong to me. 

patarini, tell me more because I'm in desperate need now. lol


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

Build a garage and screw 'um..! (Start another thread?)


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## patarini (Nov 19, 2004)

Just start small and build up, use rv deep cycle batteries to start, then get the good ones later. I did size my charge controller big, since I knew I was going to be adding to it. But you can run off just a bank of batteries and use a generator, car, pickup whatever to charge them as you get going! A semi style inverter is 300 to 500 bucks for a 3000 watt one vs 1500 to 2000 for a true sine wave inverter. Do some searches, you can use a lawnmower engine to power a car alternator, charge your batteries fast and cheap. Cant run a fridge or a stove, I use propane for both, tho I am going to try and convert a deep freeze to a fridge in a couple weeks. Use CF lights, unplug anyhting with a remote control when done using it! Right now I get by on 2 100 watt panels, and adding more as cash comes in!


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## offGridNorthern (Jan 1, 2006)

patarini said:


> Just start small and build up, !


I agree. We lived in the garage while the house was being built. .. had 2 panels because the rest were back ordered... and we did OK


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## wy0mn (Sep 18, 2003)

Finally got all the paperwork I need to begin the process of applying for my building permits. Thirteen pages worth!
Some of the applications appear to be applications for more applications, before the permitting can occur!
I've always tried to be a straight up kind of guy and I know my luck, or lack of it. If I try to circumvent the process or use loopholes, it always bites me in the rear. Paying fines after the fact is usually more expensive than paying extortion money up front sigh...


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