# traces



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

Does anyone use chain for traces on thier work horses? under what circumstances are they better than leather traces?


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Used more in the south. Strong, last longer than leather without care. Generally have "slip covers" over the area where the links could pull horse's hair.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I've never seen chains used as traces along the body of a horse, always leather or (now) nylon. Light (buggy) harness is generally set up for the pulling end of the trace to hook directly to a hook on the single tree or double tree. Work horse harness will usually have 'trace chains', a section of chain at the end of the trace and the chain will be hooked into the hook on the single/double tree.

There may be types of harness where the entire length of trace is made of chain but I have never seen it used.


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/countryside/5871712/Horse-logging-Harnessing-horse-power.html there is a picture of chain traces here


----------



## Barn Yarns (Oct 7, 2012)

i have seen it, but other than the heel chains on my harness, i dont use them. Im pretty sure that the one that i did see had old fire hose covering the chain to protect the horse. If i remember right it was in the woods, but I dont remember where. Id check Rural Heritage for one of their videos as that is probly where I had seen it.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

What haypoint said. More durable than leather and therefore cheaper in the long run. But you do need to cover the chain with some kind of sleeve at _least_ at the barrel, if you care about your critter at all. Back in the day, some people couldn't afford to care much, especially if it was "just a mule".


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

So for some light work, ( lets say harrowing for instance) does one need a work harness, or will a carriage driving harness with a driving collar be ok? 

I also saw a breast type harness that had a ring in the saddle girth, and then continued on to the whiffle tree. I read that the idea was that the angle of draft changed at the saddle so the breast plate didn't change it's angle and ride up on the wind pipe. They were using it for light work. Does any one know what that harness would be called? I will have to see if I can find another picture of it.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

http://www.samsonharness.com/publications/catalog-lo.pdf

For those that want some, page 14, item 882


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

My thought was that driving tugs (traces) might not be heavy enough to pull, and the way they hook on the hames is just through an eyelet, ...... But if a person only used the collar and hames, and put chains on them for traces ........ then Maybe........ 


I have a leather racing harness, which gives me a back saddle and crupper, so all I would need was the collar, hames, chains, and one of those straps that go from side to side in front of the flanks to hold the "traces" up, and I could yard a little wood.


----------



## dkhern (Nov 30, 2012)

our harness used chain. hook into hames and ran back to singletree hook (round ring in end of trace chain) thru leather loops to keep in position. unhook from singletree and hook on hip strap


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

this is the type of harness that I have with my standard bred for a race of jog cart, but I am pretty sure I can't do much work with it!


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

minister man said:


> this is the type of harness that I have with my standard bred for a race of jog cart, but I am pretty sure I can't do much work with it!


I'd say you're correct that it wouldn't stand up to heavy work. I've managed with a breast collar type buggy harness for light work here ... pulling a skid with hay, hauling sections of log out of the timber ... but I don't expect it to stand up to anything heavier than that and wouldn't try even as heavier work requires a collar to distribute the weight evenly against the shoulder for pulling.

This shows my Hafflinger mare with the hay skid though in this photo I didn't have the belly band on her.


----------



## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

Guess it depends on what you call "light work" that the harness will have to stand up to.

Draft type harness is made for heavy pulling, using heavier strapping, wider collars on the horse side, to spead the load out. No hard pressure on just small areas of skin, which is what happens with breast collars used in pulling. Breast collars are for lighter loads, easily moved buggy or carriages, cutter type sleighs. Angle of draft comes in for what kind of load is being dealt with. Breast collars are not the best for a very low singletree/whippletree on the load you plan to move. Top of breast collar can cut into the windpipe if horse needs to lower his head, or if traces are pulling from a low hitching point. Makes it hard to work for horse.

You need to be using a good-fitting collar, if horse needs to be doing a lot of pulling to keep the load moving, like logging or plowing, using farm implements.

The breast collar for the size hay on sled shown in photo, is probably fine with very short time working, light load to be moved over what looks like, cleared ground.

You also want to get the terms of harness correct. Lots of folks use incorrect names, but if you are speaking to other horse folks it can get VERY confusing as you talk at cross-purposes, not speaking of the same item.

Tugs, in most places, are the part coming off the hames going into the traces. In carriage harness, where traces buckle in, they can be short tugs on singles, or long tugs on Pair harness. Draft folks have their own wording of harness parts, because the design is used differently. You want to be REALLY CLEAR on which parts you are speaking, in a harness discussion.

Frankly, it would be cheaper, SAFER, to purchase a complete harness suited to doing the job required. Strong enough to handle the work, has all the NEEDED pieces in the right sizes. Cobbling a racing saddle, a buggy breastcollar, pieces of chain for traces, or lightweight buggy traces, is a recipe for disaster. Do you have a driving bridle with blinders and good reins? All I see with this combination is a harness failure in some piece, and THEN horse is in trouble. 

Has horse even been taught to drive, or pull a load bigger than a light cart? You can't take an inexperienced horse and just hitch it to equipment, expect a good result because that horse is ignorant of how to manage THAT KIND of a load. Never had to deal with WEIGHT before! Maybe you have a REALLY experienced horse who has pulled loads, driven everywhere, so it won't start acting foolish with a good weight behind him. But if the cobbled-up harness BREAKS as he walks off, he will be quite startled, and MAY react badly.

I am saying this to protect horse and YOU from a bad wreck, should things go south in his being used. How much horse knows now, is going to be the starting point, then how you plan to use him when hitched is the second part you add on. Your experience in driving a horse comes in third, because you NEED to be able to READ HIM, see what horse is telling you about his thoughts in doing the driving/pulling. Him not going forward, jigging, COULD mean he doesn't know how to pull that heavy of a load. He is NOT being stubborn, just inexperienced, not brave yet. If you FORCE the issue in getting him to go, he could go straight up, get tangled dancing around or try running.

It is real easy to ruin a good horse for driving, if you don't know what you are doing. Real easy to create a wreck, if horse should run, dragging stuff so it "chases" him and he can not escape. You don't just have a loose horse, you have a jauggernaut which demolishes things it hits.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I don't know of a _type_ of breastcollar harness that articulates at the girth but I have seen some marathon breastcollar harness that does just that. I don't know if there's a term for it. Also Scandinavian breastcollar harnesses are used for heavier work. Scandinavian cart shafts act as the traces. Instead of the traces going all the way from the hame to the singletree, the traces only go to the barrel, where they attach to the shafts. Then the shafts translate the pull all the way to the vehicle or other item being drawn. Usually in the US, a pair of shafts will go all the way to the point of the horse's shoulder, but Scandinavian shafts only go to the barrel. 

Here is a set of team Scandinavian shafts. The second photo is pretty small but if you look closely you will see that the blue shafts on the forecart only go to the saddle/girth area on the horse's barrel.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

A wide breast collar has been successfully used for heavier draft work, but it is a poor cousin to the neck collar. A breast strap is the cheapest and easiest way to get an animal in draft, so in countries that aren't as developed or in areas that are impoverished, one can find a breast strap in use for heavy work. Here are some photos of heavy working breast straps. You can see that at the girth area there is a hook to switch to chain.

The first photo is from an old catalog. The last photo is from a harness maker in Australia, if I remember correctly, and is a modern photo of a freshly-made item of harness.


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

Thanks, and I know that you are right. I grew up on a farm, and we worked horses. I was involved in training one Belguim, and trained a team of ponies myself. As a young feller, my job in the summer was to horse hoe and cultivate acres of garden each week. In the winter, I drove the yarding horse. Do I know what I am doing? probably not, but I do have some experience. 

I know that I have to go slow, starting out pulling; use lots of praise, patting and enouraging and soothing words. My mare hasn't pulled anything but a racing cart. one of the reasons I was holding out on buying harness is because she is only three, so I was thinking to buy a collar now, may not fit her later, but if I turn her soar now doing something stupid, there won't be a later. 

My grandfather always told me to put good harness on a colt,something that won't break, because it is easy enough to scare him without doing something stupid. I know you are right, your advice sounds just like my grandfather's and father's would have been, if they were still here. Harness is so expensive...... but and accident could be terminal. Guess I better go shopping inside of trying to cut corners. 

I have never used breast harness before, so that is why I was thinking it might work, it is much cheaper.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

If you aren't using a cart, a saddle or back band isn't usually really required to get work done. It is merely a convenience to help carry the traces when not actively drawing a load. A belly band, however, can sometimes be necessary to maintain the correct angle of draft. But you mention yarding wood and that's actually the only time I can think of that your angle of draft might be so altered that a saddle or back band might be necessary, in addition to a belly band; when pulling wood across a gully or ravine and the log is at a different plane than the horse.

Here are some photos of very pared-down bare-bones neck collar harnesses.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

A neck collar is so much more efficient for getting the most from a horse. If you look at the photos I just posted of the pared-down harnesses, look at where the rope traces attach to the collar. Now look at the bottom of the collar, at the horse's throat. The traces attach higher than the windpipe. With a straight breast strap, the traces by necessity must attach lower than is ideal. Usually, the breast strap presses across the base of the windpipe at least somewhat because you are trying to compromise between the horse's anatomy (low position of the windpipe) and the need to have the point of draft up on the shoulder.

The reason for a neck collar is to allow for the give clearance for the windpipe and to direct the load onto the portion of the horse that is best able to tolerate it - just above the point of the shoulder. If the traces attached to the collar lower down, it would be putting pressure on the part of the horse's shoulder that moves backward and forward a great deal with the horse's stride, and low on the horse's center of gravity. Having the traces come off the collar at the right spot is key to not making the horse sore.

To try to avoid the difficulties of proper neck collar fit, while still staying off the windpipe, there is the French collar - AKA "Euro collar" or "broller" (a portmanteau of "breast collar"). It's is expensive, however, and wouldn't last as long as a neck collar and hames in the face of farm labor. But it is interesting. It has more body than a plain breast strap, allowing it to contour around the windpipe. It is also adjustable in length to fit a horse whose shape has changed. After extended hard use, however, you would find that the contour will want to eventually straighten and raise over time. The angle of draft is fixed in a position for drawing a vehicle and not for dragging something on the ground. The point of draft is also in a fixed location so while the size of the collar can be adjusted, the point of draft may not be correct when the collar is used at either extreme of the size range. That is, with the collar tightened down as far as it can go, the point of draft may be too high. With the collar let out as far as it can go, the point of draft may be too low.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Then there is the "Empathy collar" which is essentially a sharply contoured breast strap to skirt the windpipe. Still designed for use with vehicles, however, and not farm labor.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I wanted also to touch briefly on the use of cobbled-together and improvised harness and farm equipment. When you have to do make do with what you have on hand, you have to balance the potential risks with the potential gain. In a subsistence type agricultural situation, the draft animal is likely not as well-fed as the typical American horse. He is probably hard-used and probably tends to be lean and tired. He has probably learned to conserve his strength and doesn't waste calories being fractious. His handler has probably spent many many hours working with him in harness. Perhaps he is starved and beaten and doesn't have the energy to fight. A 3rd-world donkey plowing a rocky field wearing a contraption of ropes and chains is a far cry from putting an ex-trotter in harness and giving it a whirl. You can get in serious trouble in a hurry and it is the sort of trouble that doesn't come to a natural conclusion until everything is broken and in tatters.

Having said that, if you can read a horse and if you use your head and take it slow, you can experiment with what you have on hand. You aren't out in public (I hope) so if things go south it'll just be you and your horse who can get injured. And maybe the neighbor's brand-new F-150, like the guy I talked to the other day. I don't _recommend_ it, but if you gotta do it, then you gotta do it.


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

There is a harness shop that makes harness a couple of hours from here, I might send him the picture of that horse in "bare bones harness" working in the Garden and see what that would cost for a horse the size I have. What would you call a harness like that? That would do any work I would have to do. If I wanted to pull a jog cart I have a harness for that, and if I wanted to I could pick up a nylon breast harness for the sleigh, if needed. 

My new question is this. The horse I am harnessing is a standardbred not a draft horse, so would she really be able to do enough of anything to make buying a harness practicle?


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

See the reason I am asking these questions is to learn from others experience. I don't want to set up a probable accident. I mean I know things can happen, but I really don't want to set out to see if I can get hurt! or my Horse either. 

The harness on the harrowing, that we called bare bones harness, is that something you would say was "cobbled together" It has all the pulling and steering side, but not the braking side, which isn't really needed for pulling a log or cultivator right?


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

A buggy collar and buggy hames would be more comfortable and more efficient than a breastcollar. Not as durable as a field collar and farm hames, but you would be able to get a lot more done. You could use trace chains with a buggy collar. It would be *******, but you could do it. A mending link, maybe, to attach them. Depends on how the hames are made. Most look like the photo below. The traces are permanently attached with a clip that is riveted through the leather trace. To replace the traces, you drill out the rivets. There's a terret ring to pass the lines through. 

One snag that I could predict is the strength of the hame strap. The top and bottom hame straps on a set of buggy hames are generally far narrower and less stout than those used on tubular farm hames. The slot on the buggy hames is usually too narrow to accept a very stout hame strap. If you could find a nylon strap such as a dog collar that was narrow enough to fit the hame slot on the buggy hame, you could make up that lost strength.


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I sent for a quote on draft hames and collar and a harness like the picture of the horse on the harrow. I ask that it included a work briddle( which the horse isn't wearing) and leather tugs back to the back band and then change to chain down to the whiffletree. I Will see what the price is when it comes back. Does that sound safe to everyone? I don't want to be unsafe in anyway, I just don't have much money to spend. but lost wages from an injury add up fast, for a little wood cutting.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Sure, a standardbred could get a lot more done than just a guy with his own two hands! I'd say it would be worth it.

When you talk to the harness guy, tell him you want a plow harness. Might also be called a half-harness in your neck of the woods. Tell him you just want to pull a plow or yard a little wood. 

A plow harness doesn't have britchen. Depending on the particular harness-maker's interpretation of the plow harness, it may or may not have a crupper or something to hang the ends of your traces on to carry them around when not working. See what he offers when you ask for a plow harness.

If you just had a pair of bolt-style leather traces to use on farm hames, with a back band to help carry them, you'd just need a collar, hames, lines, and singletree and you'd be in business. Bridle too, of course. I work horses in open bridles about half the time but the horse has to be broke to it, just like with anything else.

You could also ask for a plow harness with chain traces. You'd need the chain to have some kind of sleeve where the chain passes across the shoulder and the barrel of the horse. Once the chain reaches the gaskin area you don't have to have it covered, although you could find some bald spots there if you're turning corners much while working in the woods. Like Barn Yarns said, fire hose sometimes is used to cover the chain, though the rough canvas type texture of the fire hose can abrade the gaskin as bad as bare chain. Smooth leather sleeve on the chain is kindest against hide, but will eventually deteriorate like any leather harness part.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

If you use the word "draft" with the word "hames", then you're talking size and not type of use. Call them "farm hames for a standardbred". That is farm hames, as opposed to buggy hames. When talking about harness, the word "draft" is talking about the size of horse you're putting the harness on. You'll need to figure out the size of collar before you can figure out the size of hame. But telling him that it's for a standardbred should be enough info for him to get you a price.


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I sent the picture, and the measurements of my mare. I used two squares to measure the collar and it came out to 20 3/4 inches. So..... since she is almost 4 I am thinking that I will go 22 inches with a sweat pad, then when she grows I can take the sweat pad out and it should still fit. Does that make scense?


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Across the land different words for the same thing and the same words for different things.

Harrow seems easy enough. But around me, a set of discs is a wheel harrow. There is also a spike toothed harrow and a spring toothed harrow. 

Depending on the size of the discs and the width of the wheel harrow, it can be one of the hardest impliments to pull. With a plow, there is a brake in the work at the end of the field ane a bit of adjustment along the job. But leveling out plowed ground with a big set of discs is tough work. 

If you have an old tractor tire or a couple truck tires, use them in your first go-'rounds. If the horse acts up, the tires will tire him some, won't hurt as much if he gets tangled up in them, better if you get run over by it and won't bother the corner of the barn as much as a steel impliment. 

Get someone to help the first few times. Your early focus is to prevent a runaway.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2pMt10RrtY[/ame]
In an area where he can't run off, arenia, barnyard, etc.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

The harness guy may or may not be okay with changing to chain at the back band. It is more usual in this country to either have chain all the way from the hames to the singletree OR have leather traces from the hames to either the stifle or the cannon bone, and then switch to chain there. 

That leather trace with chain at the end gives you chain down in the mud/brush area where leather would otherwise take a bad beating, but still has leather against the horse's side so he doesn't get pinched or chafed. These types of traces are called heel chains or butt chains, depending on where the chain actually starts. 

Heel chains are about 6 elongated links of chain that start at about the cannon bone and are permanently attached to the leather traces. You connect and disconnect heel chains from the singletree, the heel chains stay with the traces. 

Butt chains, on the other hand, connect to the leather traces at a hook near the stifle. It is common to leave the butt chains attached to the singletree and disconnect it at the hook on the traces. I looked through my pictures but couldn't find a photo of a harness with butt-chain traces, but I did find a drawing. The butt-chain traces are also sometimes called bush traces. 

You could also have him price you out a nylon plow harness. Multi-ply nyon traces are very stout. They would usually have heel chains like I described above, rather than butt chains.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

The horse will grow a little and muscle up, but he will also work off fat. He may or may not ever bulk up the full two inches, but it is as good a place to start as any, since we can't see two years into the future and figure out for sure what he's going to do. I had a tubby young horse who actually went DOWN one size in collar when he got in hard work and never muscled out far enough to make up the difference, even when he matured.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Depending on how the harness guy interprets "plow harness", he may just offer you hames and traces with a back band and belly band, or he might offer you something with hames, traces, back band, belly band and this part that is in the photo below.

It is an assembly of straps that fastens to the hames and terminates in a crupper. Then a strap hangs off either side with a loop at the bottom to help carry the traces. This is often called a field spider or a plow spider. The straps that help carry the traces are often called "lazy straps" or "mud carriers" because they help carry the slack traces up out of the mud.

The nice thing about having a crupper on a plow harness is that it helps keep the collar from sliding down the neck if the horse lowers his head. Also, you can attach a side check rein to the ring where the crupper and the lazy straps meet, on top of the rump, and adjust it so he can't lower his head far enough to graze. Helps keep his mind on work.


----------



## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

Using the farm hames, often with adjustable locations to move the traces to, will give you more "options" in getting the line from collar to load better postitioned. The buggy hames and collar only have one setting, so you often have to reshape the metal hames to get the angle better. They also are made for LIGHT work on wheeled vehicles. They are amost always cast metal, so they WILL snap in half if used wrongly or stressed beyond what they are made for. We had a pair of stainless steel ones snap pulling to start a cutter snagged in a bit of plowed snow! That is almost no weight to move, just a bit resistant, and they just broke.

An idea for harness would be asking your chosen maker, about synthetic materials. The beta and biothanes have come a long way, in comfort, strength and are extremely popular with driving folks. Leather is darn expensive and must be maintained to keep it strong, soft and safe. A number of the pulling horse and pony folks locally, have various nylon and the other synthetics as harness for competitions.

I wouldn't recommend that Euro or broller type piece of equipment for pulling. It is a combination of two good ideas, but just really never quite works. Plenty of folks have tried it, but it seems they always go back to the full neck collar or a breast collar as time goes along. If you look at the photo of the Euro on the horse, you can see the bubble where leather is folding away, as the buckles for traces drop belown level. Not good, since it transfers more weight to other parts of the collar and on the horse. More pull on the top of neck, top of the Euro itself, as downward pull increases with weight or difficulty in moving load. So you get a BUNCH of pressure in a very small area, quite likely to sore up the animal and get very little work done. May not be able to use him the next day, he will be too sore to tolerate the pressure on his neck.

The other issues with using breast collars for pulling loads, is that the weight of the pull, is transferred directly to the neck strap that crosses the mane of the horse. When the load weight is on the traces, that neck strap is taking a LOT of the pulled load and putting it on the neck/spine area of the equine. With a sharp downward angle, you are really putting a LOT of strain on horse neck, neck strap, in doing work that an Empathy or other common design carriage breast collar is NOT designed to do. 

The Scandanavian type harness with the short shafts, is a good example of long tugs from the hames to the saddle/backpad, then traces are attached. Common on various hitches with multiple horses, Pairs, Fours, etc. Not seen much in the USA on single horses. You also don't see the short shafts shown on that horse, except on modern competiton vehicles. It is an interesting concept, could be it worked well in their steeper lands or for other reasons. Now it is traditional working farm equipment over there, but not here in the USA.

I am not an opponent of mixing harness, but it NEEDS to be harness capable of doing what is required by the job. Changing traces from one farm harness to another is not the issue. But parts going from a buggy harness to a farm use, makes it real easy to overload the straps. Hames strap from buggy hames to farm hames, is asking for trouble if you put a load on it. Farm hames strap is LOT heavier and wider.

Using a full neck collar will allow horse to use more skin area, to manage a load that needs moving. Spreads out the weight on bigger surface, uses the stronger shoulders without impedement in action, to get that load moved. Farm collar description is going to help the harness person get your animal properly fitted to do his work comfortably. Do keep the inside of a full collar (collar face) very CLEAN, to prevent soring or rubbing holes in the skin. Horse will need easy work to get used to collar, get his skin toughened up to being rubbed on in work. It takes TIME, though an old method was to keep rinsing the shoulders of horse with salt water to toughen the skin. Let it dry on the horse. Does take the shine off a bit, but can be helpful to the animal. Kind of like rinsing your own hands in salt water numerous times a day, to toughen them for blister prevention while working hard jobs.


Sure the Europeans have a lot of traditional harness, which can look odd to us. I expect they also have a lot of "make-do" especially in previously Communist countries, because of no supplies. Even non-Communist places had less access to our USA resources of leather, harness makers, a variety of designs from other areas to spark creativity. Some folks don't change even when better ideas present themselves, because "old ways are best" thinking or not wanting to be different. They may have access to numerous horses, so if one gets sored with poor fit or design of harness, they use another instead until first horse heals up. I expect their grass fat horses would be as lively as any found over here in new situations! You do see some thin horses, they don't feed additional grain to keep them fat. However they DO use them, so animals are tired by the end of the day, like American horses USED to be. Horses are FIT, which a great many people no longer recognize! A hint of rib is NOT a skinny horse, though you could think that after reading feed Company advertising with the porker horses they show! Amish folks have horses that get used and get tired, are fit for their work, while most of the rest of us have "hobby or pet" horses who are quite tired after a couple hours of work! They will have plenty of energy left to be silly, because they don't do much in an honest day's work. They may not be GRATEFUL to stand and be quiet!!

I am very glad to hear you have some experience with working animals, both in harnessing, correct requests of very young animals and driving them. Tires could be your good tool in teaching horse to be brave with weight resistance. They are not heavy if you start with a car tire, but the constant rubbing resistance to pull is an EXCELLENT way to develop confidence horse CAN move the load. We never start with big tires, it scares a young animal with HARD resistance and weight. You want horse to ALWAYS think they CAN MOVE what is behind them, keeps them willing to try it. Over time, you can move up gradually in tire sizes or add another small tire to the load, build up the horse confidence. That rubbing on the ground is constant, very good for the horse to keep it going. It is resistant, but NOT HARD to move. And your horse is quite young, so has growing still to do, mentally and physically. Tires may bump things but usually won't snag or get hung up on stuff which is UNLIKE pulling poles or logs that can catch and jump or roll sideways on turns.

Got anyone local you could go visit, learn about horse farm work from? It will save you a lot of trouble with shared information, hands on or watching them do stuff, over having to start yourself and learn the hard way.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

minister man said:


> The harness on the harrowing, that we called bare bones harness, is that something you would say was "cobbled together" It has all the pulling and steering side, but not the braking side, which isn't really needed for pulling a log or cultivator right?


Sorry, I forgot to answer this one. 

I wouldn't say that harness is cobbled together. In the country where that photo was taken, this is a very common type of harness. The collar is essentially a pair of wooden hames upholstered with a stuffed leather pad on the back of each hame. The leather pad is permanently attached to the wooden hame. The traces are made of rope that have had a loop spliced at either end and is passed through a leather sleeve to protect the horse from the rope. The rope trace is fastened to the collar with a wooden toggle pin. The leather back band and the leather belly band are adjustable and they pass through a slot in the leather trace sleeve to fasten to the rope trace itself. The back band sits farther back on the horse than the belly band does, to account for the horse's anatomy. The girth bed is just behind the horse's elbow, while the back band needs to be farther back so it doesn't abrade the withers.

The whole harness, while primitive compared to most American and UK harness used nowadays, is obviously purpose-built out of quality leather by someone who understands the function of each piece and has built it accordingly. So, no, I wouldn't say it is cobbled-together. Primitive, maybe a bit. And very simple. But not cobbled-together.

As another interesting point, here's a few more photos of that type of collar. Common Scandinavian/Swiss design. Sometimes used with rope traces, sometimes with chain, sometimes with leather. You probably won't ever see this kind of collar in the US. I have seen a very old one once, in person. It was brought over by Swiss immigrants in the early 1800s.


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I know that my Grandfather always said that he hated "those OLD sweeny collars" and didn't know why they ever made them. I now know that the sweeny allows for the width of the neck at the top, but any idea why my grandfather would have hated them? 

You know how you said, some people didn't do better, because the old way was perfect, that is why I am trying to ask questions now, to see if there was a different / better way to use a small horse. Farm harness doesn't seem off the shelf available for a standardbred horse


http://www.sackvilleharness.com/



This is the site of the harness maker that is about 2 hours from here .


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Depending on how aggressively you set the angle, disk harrow can be a hell of a hard job. I have a chain pasture harrow that is sized for a team of saddle-horses but one draft with determination can pull it. It, too, is hard work and we have to take breaks often. So, depending on what you're using, harrowing can be a tough job that I wouldn't do without a good-fitting neck collar and farm hames. Not buggy hames. I've seen buggy hames tweaked badly but never snapped like goodhors has. I can sure envision it, though, and it is an ugly thought. A buggy collar and buggy hames would be more suited for work than a breastcollar, but certainly still no replacement for a proper field collar and farm hames.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

minister man said:


> I know that my Grandfather always said that he hated "those OLD sweeny collars" and didn't know why they ever made them. I now know that the sweeny allows for the width of the neck at the top, but any idea why my grandfather would have hated them?
> 
> You know how you said, some people didn't do better, because the old way was perfect, that is why I am trying to ask questions now, to see if there was a different / better way to use a small horse. Farm harness doesn't seem off the shelf available for a standardbred horse
> 
> ...


Perhaps it is a case of differing terminology. Perhaps he meant something different by "old sweeny collar" than we do. I can't think what he might have meant by that. An old type of sweeny collar versus a new type of sweeny collar, perhaps? Some improvement in the design of the collar? For my horses I use half sweeny collars.

I see that the harness maker you contacted does offer 1/4 tugs (which would end at the girth, like you had originally mentioned), 3/4 tugs (which are the butt chain or brush tugs) and 4/4 tugs (which are the most common type of working traces that have a few links of heel chain at the end.

The handmade long straw collars they offer are a super-pricey top-of-the-line fancy work collar. You'd be just fine with a field collar from Brodhead or Aaron Martin or whoever. That would run you roughly $100 plus shipping. You can get an adjustable size collar for a bit more. Those have an adjustment range of about 2". For a bit more than the cost of a fixed-size collar ($125 or so) you can get a 20-22" adjustable collar and _still_ have the option of adding a pad if you need it to be even smaller than 20"

Don't be mis-led by the selection of what is shown in a harnessmaker's catalog. If the guy makes his own stuff rather than just re-selling imported garbage or brokering mass-produced Amish stuff, it shouldn't be any more expensive for him to make you a harness in saddle horse size.


----------



## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

To me, sweeny is a "design" of a working collar. I also know about rim collars and full-face collars. I think you contacting the harness person, would let you learn of other collar designs available. 

One company who has been helpful to me, is the Big Black Horse folks. You could call and ask questions, I am sure they would be helpful to you.

http://www.bigblackhorse.com/equine/harness-and-accessories/horse-harness.html

There are LOTS of other companies who make working harness and sell collars. I am most familiar with makers in the USA, and what is available here, though we are more into driving stuff than working farm horses and equipment. I have a catalog left from last years Progress Days in Michigan, showcasing the many products related to independent living, Farming and using animals in your daily life. Put on by the Amish, it moves locations each year, showing AMAZING things possible for your needs. Among the advertisers are a number of harness makers, if you want to hear about them.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Heck, I have a decent working set of 19-21" farm hames, leather-and-heel-chain traces and a back band that I could _give_ you but the shipping wouldn't be cheap. See what the harness guy quotes you for leather and also for synthetic (if he offers that as an option). I'll see what size of box I could possibly cram this mess into and what it would cost to ship that up to your province.


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

Actually, I have a team set of farm harness for a team of ponies, complete with a set of double reins. 


So I could take the cross reins off the straight reins, and have a set of single reins. They are one inch leather! they have been around for a few years, but not used much, since they were brand new. 

I MIGHT be able to use the back pad and girth.... I will have to try them on her. The collars won't fit they are only 18 inch, and so the hames won't fit, and the tugs/ traces bolt to the hames and have the hooks on the other end for the chains to the whiffletree. They might be short, but I could use longer chains, if I could find a used collar and hames. I will dig it out after supper and see, what might fit her. It is designed for a 700 lbs pony, and she weighs about 950, so I won't hold my breath, but I could check it out.


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

Maybe the harness guy could rebuild some of it to make it bigger too,


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

After we talked last, I thought I would put an add on the local online classifieds to see if there were any used collars out there. Within about an hour, I got a reply from a fellow that has work harness that was built for "retired harness race horses". Wow, he lives about 50 mins from me. He raises and breeds Clydes, but bought a guy with light horses out, so he has several collars and sides of harness, and told me that he could show me how to put all the pieces together.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Fantastic!


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

He siad I could come over on Wednesday and he would fix me up. He might even be interested in an indian leather western saddle that i have that fits nothing I have. He said he wants 75$ for a collar, and probably set me up with a harness for 250 so that shouldn't be too bad. He said he could show me how to make sure it fits well. 

I feel Like I have learn alot today...... you know the funny thing is, I advertised on the same site that I was looking for harness, and got no replies. The Lord works in Mysterious ways.


----------



## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

Sounds like a WIN situation for both you, horse and the seller of harness! He could be a good resource about using your horse on the farm.


----------



## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

If you're going to try this, then I very, very strongly suggest you see if you can put in some time with a person that's good with draft horses. An Standardbred can do a lot of light jobs IF you get him trained right and if he has the temperament for it. A coming 4 year old is still a "teenager" in horse years. Put your money into a properly fitted collar and safe harness, it doesn't have to be pretty or fancy. I'd much rather put my money into a decent collar and hames (hames have to ft the horse too) and use rope tugs than skimp on the collar.


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

Here are some pictures. I am measuring the collar correctly, Right? the cut out for the lenght of the collar is 20" and the width one is 10" but has about an inch of play side to side. She is 60" tall.


----------



## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

You may want to measure both the upper side of the neck, along with the wider, lower portion of the neck. Horse may need a pointed top collar that widens towards the windpipe, rather than one that is kind of 8 shaped or oval, with rounded top and wider bottom. Collars come in lots of shapes, because horse necks have many shapes.

Length from top to bottom, should allow you to get your hands inside, like you have in the second photo, to prevent pressure on the windpipe. I wouldn't give much extra in width sideways, it can make the collar rock while horse is moving. 

Fitting collars is NOT EASY! You want it down on her shoulders, but not too wide or too short. Collar face should lay smoothly on her shoulders when at rest, conform to her shape. Not any daylight to see thru collar from front to back when horse has it on, because that shows it doesn't fit correctly. Best idea is to take horse to be fitted at a shop where experienced eyes can evaluate the fit and educate your eyes. 

We have a BUNCH of collars for our horses, because they don't stay the same. So various collars fit good now, but not in summer, so collars get changed as needed.


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I went with work collar and hames, with the collar pad underneath. I have the harness almost fitted, I just have to make some adjustments here and there to make it work. I may have to get a different set of tugs. The ones on the harness are the ones that have hooks on the ends and that is ok, but they are too long, and the hooks will go back behind her hind legs a little, which means that the lazy straps won't work. 

Here is the picture I was talking about the other day, and then couldn't find. Not that it is relevant now, just that I stubbled across it, and thought I would post it.


----------



## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

It's okay if they go back behind her a bit. The lazy straps are more or less just keep the tugs from easily getting under her feet. Usually there is a hook on the spider or crupper assy to hang the tugs off of when needed. If the lazy straps are carrying part of the load they're too short in most cases.Same thing for when the back band is carrying the load, angle are usually wrong if that's happening. There are exceptions, but I'm speaking in general terms.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

If the harness is built the way I'm picturing it, the traces are leather with a hook at the end to attach the heel chains. The heel chains are removable from the traces. The lazy straps might be designed to attach to the traces at that hook, rather than have a sleeve that the trace passes through. If the traces are designed for an animal with a longer body, I can see how this might pose a complication. Look at some photos of different kinds of harness and see if you can figure some way around this.

Thanks, by the way, for that little illustration of the "Dutch collar". I added it to my collection and I am going to look into it. Never heard of it before.


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

That is what they look like. The end of the trace has a clevice looking loop bolted to the end of the trace, and a hook on the other side. The lazy straps should loop through the top of the clevices to hold the traces from draging. I don't see anyway to shorten the traces. I could unbolt the clevices and take the hooks off and add a couple of feet of chain, but that is not really ther problem. 

I am considering drilling a hole through the trace right under the breeching ring, and put a bolt through it, and put the bolt through a piece of chain, and use a s hook to hook it up the breeching strap. That way it could be unhooked if something went wrong. what do you think? at least that would hold them up. I mean I won't be using her alot, but I want her to be safe.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

No need to compromise your trace by making a hole in it. The lazy strap doesn't have to be made fast to the trace in order to be effective. Instead, make a loop at the end of your lazy strap and just pass the trace through it. 

I don't recall... did you end up getting a harness with breeching/britchen? If so, then just hang your lazy strap from the britchen ring, like so:


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

In the photo of the team of Belgians in the snow, you can see that the trace is simply passed through a loop.

If you don't have a britchen, then the loop just hangs from the ring at the top of the rump, or the strap that goes to the crupper.


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

Yes the harness I got has britching, so I just need to make a couple of loops to support the traces. Cool


----------



## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

What do your lazy straps look like now?


----------



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

The lazy straps I have are about and inch wide and hang from the britching ring to the ring on the end of the traces. With the traces too long, that doesn't work very well. I might be able to just slide the trace through the loop along the way.


----------



## arnie (Apr 26, 2012)

yes I use harness with trace chaines they are stronger and more reliable in heavy pulling hames and collars are nessary for any type of heavy work as are the hip strapsand britching for stoping the striped down harness is only used for pulling forward with no backing or brakeing power with wheeled wagons or equipment. the


----------



## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

Trace chains were commonly used throughout the south. They were about 7' long, had a ring on one end, and several larger links at the other end for adjustment.

In my part the world a lot of plowing was done with the following gear, bridle, collar, hames with hooks,23' to 26' of 1/2"cotton rope for lines, set of trace chains and a a back band, a 4" wide onsaburg band fold a couple time and sowed together,almost quilted.....if you couldn't afford it you folded up a guano sack, cut two parrallel slits to pass the trace chain through, and tied in place with a piece of twine.

The same set-up was used on oxen, when they weren't used in the yoke.
Some places they even used collars made outa cornshucks.


----------

