# canning meat



## Adirondackgal (Aug 8, 2013)

Do you have to use a pressure canner to can meat? Can you use a water bath canner?


----------



## countryfied2011 (Jul 5, 2011)

yes, no


----------



## Adirondackgal (Aug 8, 2013)

Thank you for your reply countryfried.


----------



## Adirondackgal (Aug 8, 2013)

I am sorry for the typo, countryfied.


----------



## countryfied2011 (Jul 5, 2011)

Adirondackgal said:


> I am sorry for the typo, countryfied.



Oh dont worry about it....when I first set up my name I wanted it to be countryfried....but I had misspelled it... 

Sorry for my anwering be so short...DH was calling to me from the kitchen...

Anyways meat is low acid the reason for the pressure canning and not water bath. I was a little intimidate by it at first...but it is super easy after you get your feet wet. I love canning meat and have it ready when I need it and dont want to cook.


----------



## mjlitt (Apr 17, 2014)

Canning meat


----------



## Janis R (Jun 27, 2013)

You need a pressure canner, It is pretty easy once you get started. You can cook the meat first or raw pack it. I raw pack my chicken breasts, large pieces of pork,venison or beef. I cook my rabbit first then debone and pack in own juices. I like browning my ground beef with onions and garlic, rinsing and packing with beef broth. The one thing you want to make sure is that there isn't hardly any fat when you can. 

Good luck


----------



## Guest (Aug 26, 2014)

Janis R said:


> You need a pressure canner, It is pretty easy once you get started. You can cook the meat first or raw pack it. I raw pack my chicken breasts, large pieces of pork,venison or beef. I cook my rabbit first then debone and pack in own juices. I like browning my ground beef with onions and garlic, rinsing and packing with beef broth. The one thing you want to make sure is that there isn't hardly any fat when you can.
> 
> Good luck


I disagree with with making sure that the meat has hardly any fat..my first time pressure canning was canning (raw 80/20) meatloaf..I canned over 30-quarts..not one seal failed..that was over 2-yrs ago.


----------



## Velda (Dec 3, 2013)

I use an All American pressure canner for meat. The manual, with meat canning recipes and instructions, is available online for free. That's how I learned. 

http://www.allamerican-chefsdesign.com/admin/FileUploads/Product_44.pdf


----------



## TerriLynn (Oct 10, 2009)

My grandma and my aunt always canned meat by boiling water bath. I just called my aunt and asked how she did it, she said that you boil quarts for 3 hours. The only thing with boiling water bathing meat is that you need to boil the contents of the jar for 20 min before you consume it.


----------



## Guest (Aug 26, 2014)

TerriLynn said:


> My grandma and my aunt always canned meat by boiling water bath. I just called my aunt and asked how she did it, she said that you boil quarts for 3 hours. The only thing with boiling water bathing meat is that you need to boil the contents of the jar for 20 min before you consume it.


That's so interesting..Thank you!


----------



## MichaelK! (Oct 22, 2010)

TerriLynn said:


> My grandma and my aunt always canned meat by boiling water bath. I just called my aunt and asked how she did it, she said that you boil quarts for 3 hours. The only thing with boiling water bathing meat is that you need to boil the contents of the jar for 20 min before you consume it.


xxxx Water bath canning meats is NOT safe. The botulism bacteria can grow after water bath canning and the only safe thing about it is that the toxin itself is distroyed by boiling. You might be safe if you ALWAYS remember to heat the contents, but if somebody that doesn't know picks up one of your jars they could be killed.


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

Definitely want to use a pressure canner. Just because it used to be done a certain way & some people still do it that way, doesn't mean it is a safe way. Killing my family with botulism just isn't something I want to take a chance on. Quarts in a pressure canner take take 90 minutes.


----------



## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

I'm going to slightly disagree here. The truth is there are *no* independent studies. It's simply citations of published papers/opinions. One from 35 years ago; one other from 18 yrs ago. 

That's the real problem with home canning; thus all the controversy. No true scientific studies even exist. It's all taken from theory of scientific bacteria/spores/etc. The USDA simply draws their own conclusions based on theory and opinions. 

The USDA has us all believing if we don't do it their way, we're all going to die, or you're putting your family as high risk for death. That's simply not true. If you take into consideration all the home canners and so many different forms of canning (including thousands - if not millions, of people who _don't_ follow USDA canning procedures) here's an interesting, scientific, and accurate accounting from the CDC that I posted a couple of years ago regarding death and illness from home canned foods (food related deaths, are under law, required to be reported to the CDC by the attending physicians/hospital/medical facility):
_Only *1* person died in 8 years of reporting home canning deaths and illnesses:_

2009 - 3 illness (all were cases involving mushrooms)
2008 - 14 ilness all from the same 4 cases (family members) of home canned green bean/carrot mix - one death.
2007 - none
2006 - 2 illnesses (1 from canned mushrooms; 1 from canned meat)
2005 - none
2004 - none
2003 - none
2002 - none
2001 - none

Since 2009, the CDC reports there are less than 2 botulism cases a year with no resulting deaths.
​If you take into consideration the types of food that were the problems, it brings up the question of whether the food canned was either contaminated, or spoiled prior to canning; or (in the case of the mushrooms) poision/inedible variety of mushrooms. Also, it is also possible that improper sanitation/cleanliness could have been a factor. 

I'm not saying that we should all just have a free-for-all in how we home can our foods, but it is apparent that something isn't right in what we are told by the USDA (ie: Ball Bluebook follows only USDA guidelines as does every other published canning books due to lawsuits). But if you ever saw how they home can in other countries and survive (or how we canned in this country before pressure cookers, time tables, etc.) everyone would be dead from home canned food if we took what the USDA says as gospel.

I don't think it's any form of conspiracy or anything like that, rather that the USDA/FDA simply doesn't do _any_ studies nor do they conduct their own testing and evaluations, nor do they check to see if the opinions are based on any studies because home canning is not a priority with that Federal department. They have much more pressing issues and - mostly because funding is so limited in the area of home preserving. All the money allocated to home canning procedure mostly goes to try to keep local and state extension services afloat. It's just easier and sounds best to follow strict un-verified requirements of theory. 

So my personal thoughts are, each to his own. No one intentionally sets out to put their family in danger. Each of us has to determine what does or does not put them in danger. We're each going to draw the line at different places. Just as a Germaphobic would draw a different line than the rest of us might; or another might let their kids run barefoot in the chicken coop. Just different ends of the same spectrum; but both just as concerned for their family. 

If it makes someone feel better and safer to follow the guidelines to the measure, then I can totally understand and respect that. On the other hand, if another wishes to do it totally differently and not follow all the guidelines, I also think we need to respect that choice, after all, it is their freedom to do so. At least since there is no proof to the contrary anyway; only opinion.


----------



## Melesine (Jan 17, 2012)

Am I misunderstanding or are you claiming that that USDA canning guidelines aren't based on science?


----------



## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

I'm not claiming that at all. But the science they are basing their recommendations are only theory with absolutely no testing nor documentation.

Scientific theory is not fact nor is it truth. Theories are unproven educated guesses only. Theories are found to be inaccurate or totally bogus all the time. Because a theory exists and is logical, doesn't mean it is accurate -- but especially does not mean it is any better than any other _alternative_ method.

Based on the "facts" (the proven truth) from the CDC's own documentation of canning illnesses (which doctors and hospitals are _required under law_ to report), the numbers show that the stories we hear and what the FDA/USDA tell us about people dying or becoming seriously sick from home canned foods shows the "theory" to be wrong and those stories not to be true.

For me, I just feel better pressure canning all low acid foods. It doesn't take any more effort IMHO than water bath, but I do understand and respect other's choices without making them feel they don't care about the well being of their families; and will stand up for alternative methods since it's all a bunch of nonesense anyway that we've been fed by governmental agencies trying to cover their backsides from lawsuites, bad press, etc. To say nothing of the public in general making up or passing on untrue canning stories. Like I said, it's each to his own and their freedom to choose for whatever reasons they feel safer.

On a more practical note, look at it this way, if water bath was so dangerous, how in the word are any of us here? It's only been in the last 60 years that pressure canning for the home even existed. If water bath is so dangerous, how has not entire generations been wiped out.


----------



## Melesine (Jan 17, 2012)

> But the science they are basing their recommendations are only theory with absolutely no testing nor documentation.



Ok well from reading the USDA canning website's list of studies they've conducted since 2000 it sure looks like they've been testing their theories. They list: 

Conducting microbial challenge studies of some historical processes to validate their safety in light of newer food safety knowledge. Which is the subject being discussed in this thread. 

Conducting applied laboratory research on a partially-fermented, refrigerator-stored dill pickle procedure to describe any potential heating treatments for Listeria risk. 

Conducting applied laboratory research on a home-canned tomato-based salsa procedure. 

Conducting applied laboratory research to compare several home canning lid systems on features of sealing rates and vacuums obtained.

Those sure look like testing to me.


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

I see your point Karen, but still think it wise to pressure can certain things. There are lots of people that still like to do things the old way & that's fine. I would rather run my pressure canner 90 minutes than heat up the house running a hot water bath for 3 hours. 
Bringing things up to that higher temperature makes sense. You can boil something for 5 days & it will never get more than the boiling point in temperature. Pressure canning brings it up to that higher temperature. I personally do not know anyone that has ever gotten sick from botulism. However, I will follow the guidelines given so the risk is minimal. To each their own. I have a BIL that does not pressure can for the amount of time suggested. I will not eat their home canned meat items.


----------



## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

interesting discussion, what has bothered me is botulism is killed at 240 degrees or 10 pounds pressure at sea level, but they don't tell you to increase pressure till over 1000 feet, at 750 feet the boiling temperature of water has already dropped almost 2 degrees so in theory your at about 238.5 degrees, less than what they claim kills botulism spores. I first thought that maybe 240 was just a round number for botulism, but I can't find any place that says it is actually less. So does it really kill the spores, professional "tin" canners heat till its 250 degrees. The toxin that harms us is destroyed at 185 degrees. Thats why they say to boil water bathed (low acid) goods before eating. Lots of theory but what's the facts?

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-points-water-altitude-d_1344.html

http://www.simplycanning.com/altitude-adjustments.html


----------



## Werforpsu (Aug 8, 2013)

It sounds like there really isn't a true answer, it is just about what you feel comfortable with. 
I didn't inherit my canning..I taught myself and I choose to be more conservative with what I am willing to do. I don't even like to deviate from the recipes.
I follow the guidelines because I wouldn't know how to NOT follow the guidelines, BUT I know a lot of people who water bath low acid foods like venison and green beans or don't follow procedures like canning pumpkin puree instead of chunks or reusing lids.
I would just recommend that everyone be careful about giving their food out to other people if they have not "followed the directions" because that person might not know what to do to keep the food safe (like boiling it before using).


----------



## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

I agree with that too and I'm always hesitant about using someone else's home canned food when I don't know their procedure in doing so. The canning method really isn't so much an issue with me as not knowing how long they processed it, was it at the correct pressure, and even more important -- the cleanliness and how the food was actually dealt with (cross contamination for instance).


----------



## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Melesine said:


> Ok well from reading the USDA canning website's list of studies they've conducted since 2000 it sure looks like they've been testing their theories. They list:
> 
> Conducting microbial challenge studies of some historical processes to validate their safety in light of newer food safety knowledge. Which is the subject being discussed in this thread.
> 
> ...


Those are only what was on the agenda for 2011-2014; however, they never happened due to the USDA budget cuts. The dill pickle one and salsa one (from 2005/2006) may also have never happened or didn't go as they had hoped because absolutely no results were never published nor made public.

As a previous poster said, there is no clear answer; therefore, we each have to determine what is best for our family, in whom do we lay our trust (great-grandma or the government ) and what we feel best in our hearts is the thing to do.


----------



## Melesine (Jan 17, 2012)

Well I won't be posting my opinion of Gov on the internet but I can tell you it isn't what's you might think based on my posts in this thread.


----------



## margoC (Jul 26, 2007)

Botulism belongs to a group of bacteria that are gram positive spore forming rods called clostridiaceae. Most of them are anaerobic, meaning they can live without oxygen. An &#8220;obligate anaerobe&#8221; is one that _must_ live without oxygen.

This group is capable of producing spores and several species are important in pathogens. C. difficlie is one that lives in your gut. When the normal flora of your intestines is killed off during some antibiotic therapy, this organism takes over and thrives, causing severe illness. 

The one that concerns us here is clostridium botulism. It produces a neurotoxin that has become useful cosmetically, to reduce wrinkles, but also some other therapeutic uses. It's also a powerful neurotoxin. 

These organisms produce very hardy spores that are not killed under normal circumstances, including the temperature in which boiling water reaches. Water is a rather unique substance, due to the nature of hydrogen bonds. Water also only gets so hot before it turns into steam. It will maintain that temperature regardless of how long it&#8217;s boiled. That&#8217;s considered it&#8217;s &#8220;boiling point&#8221; and is dependent upon atmospheric pressure. 

In order to raise this boiling point to safely kill botulism spores, we process the cans under pressure, which allows the temperature to be raised to a point to safely kill the spores. 

These spores are everywhere in nature, even in the water you use to wash them off. Several of these species also causes gangrene when oxygen is cut off from a body part. It happens because these spores are so ubiquitous, they only need the proper conditions to grow. The bacteria produces toxins that remain after the bacteria itself has died. This is what harms you in the food, the toxin, not the bacteria. 

Although the death rate may be low from botulism, it may be because of lack of home canning rather than low risk. The company Castleberry had a problem with poor management which resulted in an outbreak of botulism in 2007. This happened in an industry with automated systems and such. A small lapse in protocol enable the organism to contaminate the chili sauce. 
It&#8217;s one of the most dangerous neurotoxins known to man, even one death is one too many if it&#8217;s your child or friend, especially considering the ease it is to make it no risk at all. Pressure canners aren&#8217;t that expensive and if you make sure to get the ones with the jigglers to maintain the proper pressure (instead of constantly adjusting the heat source) it&#8217;s very easy. Plus it&#8217;s quicker and doesn&#8217;t heat up the house as much. 

It doesn&#8217;t make sense to take risks when it&#8217;s easier not to take the risks.


----------



## margoC (Jul 26, 2007)

from wiki:



> Although the botulinum toxin is destroyed by thorough cooking over the course of a few minutes,[19][20] the spore itself is not killed by the temperatures reached with normal sea-level-pressure boiling, leaving it free to grow and again produce the toxin when conditions are right.[21][22]





> While commercially canned goods are required to undergo a "botulinum cook" in a pressure cooker at 121 Â°C (250 Â°F) for 3 minutes, and so rarely cause botulism, there have been notable exceptions such as the 1978 Alaskan salmon outbreak and the 2007 Castleberry's Food Company outbreak. Foodborne botulism is the rarest form though, accounting for only around 15% of cases (US)[24] and has more frequently been from home-canned foods with low acid content, such as carrot juice, asparagus, green beans, beets, and corn. However, outbreaks of botulism have resulted from more unusual sources. In July 2002, fourteen Alaskans ate _muktuk_ (whale meat) from a beached whale, and eight of them developed symptoms of botulism, two of them requiring mechanical ventilation.[25]





> Contamination of a canned food solely with _C. botulinum_ may not cause any visual defects (e.g. bulging). Only sufficient thermal processing during production should be used as a food safety control.


 


from the CDC:



> A pressure cooker must be used to can vegetables at home because it can reach temperatures above boiling, which is necessary to kill botulism spores. Instructions on safe home canning can be obtained from county extension services or from the US Department of Agriculture


 


I have other sources from textbooks and other reference material used at work (as a microbiologist) but am unable to post them at this time.


----------



## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

I think you totally missed the point. I'm not saying pressure canning isn't what is recommended. What I am insisting upon is we allow everyone the grace to determine for themselves what is best for them and their family.

Since the statistical data no where near supports the claim that we're all gonna die if we water bath non-acid foods, it then becomes each person's choice how they wish to conduct themselves.

But let me put it this way, even if some study emerges that shows, without a doubt that we're going kill ourselves by water bathing our canned foods, this forum's position will always be to pass that information along to it's members, *but* at no time will anyone (regardless of their educational degree) be permitted to name call, make anyone feel inferior or worthless for not following a recommended procedure, nor be made to feel they don't care about their family because they don't subscribe to what others feel to be the only correct process.

Safety information will always be appreciated here and encouraged. _*But *_there is a kind way to present that information -- and then let it go with those who believe otherwise. Playing "canning police" with a superior attitude will never be allowed. Respecting others views (despite their choice of alternative methods) is the only way this forum will be run.


----------



## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

One final thing, so as not to lead people into incorrect information, the whale thing posted from wiki, was a beached whale that had been dead for 8 days and isn't even about food that was canned from it. It says nothing about any food being canned in this situation. Only a warning about being cautious about the canning of certain parts of whales. The article is about consuming contaminated foods -- nothing about canning.

Depending on wiki for information comes with risks of inaccuracies and this is one of them. Here's the actual article about it -- which is directly from the CDC itself:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5202a2.htm

Also note in the Castelberry's situation, it wasn't just that the food was not processed at the right pressure, rather there were issues with the equipment and as well as the time in which they were being processed for.


----------



## Junkman (Dec 17, 2005)

We just finished canning sausage. I roll it in little balls (like meatballs) and push down in jars raw. Then pressure can according to cook book. When I open a jar, I just take a spoon and pop out the little balls and usually scramble with eggs. Came in handy when we were 7 days without power. My concern is I purchase the raw meat (we don't have our own anymore) and am not sure what is on it.
When we had our own I knew no flys or unsanitary workers were around. I am so amazed at how wonderful you young ladies are at preparing good food for your families and not feeding them so many preservatives. Keep up the good work. Jklady


----------

