# Why can't I give money away?



## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

We're FSBO for our house and land with a web site: www.offgrid150.simpl.com

We'd like to have more people than the two of us trying to find a buyer....but not list the property.

It seems hard to believe but I was told that I could not post it on our web site, or run an ad in newspapers, offering a $10,000 finders fee at closing to the person who brought us a buyer for our home. Apparently liscensed agents are the only ones who can accept cash for finding a buyer? That doesn't seem right to me.

Does anyone know if Washington state laws allow me to offer a cash bonus at closing to ANY person who brought us the successful buyer? 

Thanks

Don


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## anahatalotus (Oct 25, 2012)

Perhaps there is some loophole like offering a donation or a gift instead of a direct fee. Have you tried all the usual websites like Craigslist, zwillow, trulia etc? From the link your place is amazing! I wish I knew someone looking in that area with that type of funds. Best wishes!


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## FVF-KANSAS (Jan 11, 2015)

link doesn't work for me


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

FVF-KANSAS said:


> link doesn't work for me


It should work. (Famous last words)

Maybe try just typing in:

offgrid150.simpl.com


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

When I click it says "404 NOT FOUND". Works fine to left click, copy and paste your link....James


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

Gray Wolf said:


> We're FSBO for our house and land with a web site: www.offgrid150.simpl.com
> 
> We'd like to have more people than the two of us trying to find a buyer....but not list the property.
> 
> ...


The act of bringing buyer and seller together is called Real Estate Brokerage. All states require a license to engage in this activity, if it is done "for another" and "for a fee".

In plain words the state wants a fee on your transaction.

You would be permitted to have someone find a buyer for you, and not pay them. This would be leagal. Good luck on that project.:thumb:


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

This is another instance of big gov't protecting the existing business from competition. You most likely can't operate a cab or cut hair without expense licenses, time consuming training, and other obstacles placed in your way to stop competitors. 

In some states, you have to be a licensed funeral director to sell anything that will be used as a casket.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

edcopp said:


> The act of bringing buyer and seller together is called Real Estate Brokerage. All states require a license to engage in this activity, if it is done "for another" and "for a fee".
> 
> In plain words the state wants a fee on your transaction.
> 
> You would be permitted to have someone find a buyer for you, and not pay them. This would be leagal. Good luck on that project.:thumb:


 No, it's the real estate industry pushing laws to protect them.

No matter how you sell a property, the state/gov. gets their money when the deed is recorded. Deeds not legal if it's not recorded.


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

po boy said:


> No, it's the real estate industry pushing laws to protect them.
> 
> No matter how you sell a property, the state/gov. gets their money when the deed is recorded. Deeds not legal if it's not recorded.


There is no law that requires that a deed be recorded. It is a legal transfer of ownership the minute that it is delivered to the purchaser, recorded or not.:thumb:


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

edcopp said:


> There is no law that requires that a deed be recorded. It is a legal transfer of ownership the minute that it is delivered to the purchaser, recorded or not.:thumb:


Yes and no.

Try selling a piece of property with a non recorded deed in your name.


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## lurnin2farm (Jun 10, 2012)

edcopp said:


> There is no law that requires that a deed be recorded. It is a legal transfer of ownership the minute that it is delivered to the purchaser, recorded or not.:thumb:


If the deed isnt recorded then who pays the taxes on the property? Wouldnt the bill continue to go to the previous owner? Unless of course there is an allodial title on it but there arent very many of those left. Those that do have em tend to hang onto them..


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

lurnin2farm said:


> If the deed isnt recorded then who pays the taxes on the property? Wouldnt the bill continue to go to the previous owner? Unless of course there is an allodial title on it but there arent very many of those left. Those that do have em tend to hang onto them..


LOL,

That's where the rubber meets the road.

If the deed/title is not transferred at the courthouse any liens, judgements, unpaid property taxes, unpaid federal or state taxes and other numerous defaults can be costly!


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

We'll have an attorney, title company and escrow company involved to handle everything. (We've sold places ourselves before so no big deal.)

All I need is the introduction to the successfull buyer and both their signatures on a one page contract ensuring they get paid at closing and designating who gets the finders fee. 10 minutes work? A phone call? What skillfull real estate service did they provide?

Oh well, another case of "my logic" versus the world.

Thanks for any input.

Don


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

Gray Wolf said:


> We'll have an attorney, title company and escrow company involved to handle everything. (We've sold places ourselves before so no big deal.)
> 
> All I need is the introduction to the successfull buyer and both their signatures on a one page contract ensuring they get paid at closing and designating who gets the finders fee. 10 minutes work? A phone call? What skillfull real estate service did they provide?
> 
> ...


Wonder if it would be legal if you signed the contract with your middle man and then have him paid to assign the contract to the final buyer in your state. That is how those "We buy any house/any condition" people do it in my area--they just put the contract on it and then assign the contract to the ultimate buyer in exchange for a cut of the deal. I guess the money would have to show as coming out of the buyer side on the HUD-1, but otherwise, a possibility to check into.


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## billinwv (Sep 27, 2013)

Don, The link to your site isn't working for me either. It did the first time I looked at it. Ditto on the beautiful place. Why no realtor? I just sold a 650k property in a very hard to sell area(average home sale is around 80k). It took 2 years, but once I got the right realtor the showings went way up. I was able to negotiate a lower commission also. The cost was worth it.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

We tried it ourselves for about 6 months. Had a few people look at it and want it but they couldn't come up with the money and we aren't hooked in with any lenders.

We had one agent list it for 6 months. 6% commission offered. They got one other agent up for the brokers open house (for a total of 3 agents who saw the property and eventually a total of 3 prospective buyers looked at it. No offers and no feedback from the prospective buyers.

Tried another agent for 6 months. Even offered 7% commission. Had one showing. No offers. Feedback was that it was too far from town. (11 miles. Duh, didn't they know that before they left town?)

We are now trying to decide on going with a third agent or run again with FSBO. We think the problems are: 

it takes agents a couple of hours travel and showing time when they could hit a few more expensive places on the lake in the same amount of time,

they will get their car dirty - 3 miles of gravel road,

they will have to drive in snowy roads if they leave town during the winter,

they will only list it on MLS, Zillo, etc - the easy online places. They said "Nobody looks for property anywhere but the internet". While that may be largely true, they wouldn't even put an ad in the local paper.

Absent a good agent, we think we'd rather pay for some print and online ads, lower the price 30k or so and then give 5 or 10 thousand to the person who gives us the buyers name. That's it. A name and contact information - no real estate advice or further help to the buyer or us. Is an introduction really illegal? What real estate services have been provided?

As to the link, are you typing it in exactly? No "e" in simpl, no @, and the periods correct?

offgrid150.simpl.com

Thanks 

Don


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

I think the link issue is that there is a www in the link in the OP but that should not be there for it to work.

Best of luck to you. Might want to consider offering it as part of a 1038 exchange or something to see if that attract a different type investor.


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## billinwv (Sep 27, 2013)

Still couldn't access your site. I picked my last realtor by watching what was being sold and picked the one with the most closed sales. I subdivided and sold the house with 10 acres to make it more affordable. The additional acreage I held the note with 25k down for 3.9% interest to make it appealing. Beats current CD rates and helped close the sale. (first person who looked at the land with that interest bought it). I was lucky in that I had no debt involved. I don't know how it works, but there are ways to sell properties like yours in "shares" to folks who want to form a hunt club. Doctors, lawyers, etc. you might really make out if you can get someone to help you make it work. Good luck!


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

billinwv said:


> Still couldn't access your site. I picked my last realtor by watching what was being sold and picked the one with the most closed sales. I subdivided and sold the house with 10 acres to make it more affordable. The additional acreage I held the note with 25k down for 3.9% interest to make it appealing. Beats current CD rates and helped close the sale. (first person who looked at the land with that interest bought it). I was lucky in that I had no debt involved. I don't know how it works, but there are ways to sell properties like yours in "shares" to folks who want to form a hunt club. Doctors, lawyers, etc. you might really make out if you can get someone to help you make it work. Good luck!


the link you need to cut and paste is offgrid150.simpl.com with no www. in front of it. Or you can google "offgrid150.simpl.com" and it will give you the working link


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## andrew3d (Jun 23, 2002)

I think you could offer a bonus to a licensed Realtor that brought you a buyer even if FSBO. It would be paid to them at closing. I do not believe offering that kind of incentive would be illegal but then it never hurts to double check with someone that knows your state laws.


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## buffalocreek (Oct 19, 2007)

Why would you want to sell a beautiful place like that after so much work?


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Had a stroke last spring. Airlifted to Seattle. A great adventure - so I'm told. Ok now but maybe time to retire and let somebody else cut firewood. Need to be closer to doctors too.

It's a great place, our dream home and property but....

Hey everyone, I discovered I did indeed screw up the way to get to the web site for our house sale. I thought it was one of those newfangled www link things, but no, apparently you need to type it into a search engine like Google, Yahoo .... 

offgrid150.simpl.com


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

po boy said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> Try selling a piece of property with a non recorded deed in your name.


All you have to do is find a buyer, take his/her cash and give them another deed just like the one you have. Its perfectly legal! (good luck with finding a buyer willing to accept that type deed though)


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Gray Wolf said:


> We're FSBO for our house and land with a web site: www.offgrid150.simpl.com
> 
> We'd like to have more people than the two of us trying to find a buyer....but not list the property.
> 
> ...


I am not positive about Washington state law, but every state I have dealt with have laws against offering or accepting "off the books finders fees" when dealing with real estate. I am willing to wager and give good odds that Washington state has these same laws in place. 

These laws are in place to prevent "just anyone" from profiteering in the real estate game. Its difficult enough to keep the sharks out of the game with laws and real estate regulations in place... much harder if not impossible to do if it were an open game. Real estate brokers tend to play a bit more fairly when they have a license at stake. Its easy money playing fairly, they dont want to lose their ability to play.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> All you have to do is find a buyer, take his/her cash and give them another deed just like the one you have. Its perfectly legal! (good luck with finding a buyer willing to accept that type deed though)


If you do not get the original unrecorded deed with the new deed you are screwed, and in most places, you are just inviting liens and judgments to have attached if you did that. In my state, you would have a problem if a person on one of those unrecorded deeds died before recording unless you can show the deed was delivered before their death.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Declan said:


> If you do not get the original unrecorded deed with the new deed you are screwed, and in most places, you are just inviting liens and judgments to have attached if you did that. In my state, you would have a problem if a person on one of those unrecorded deeds died before recording unless you can show the deed was delivered before their death.


If there is no chance of the unrecorded deed ever showing up no harm no foul ,just get a deed from the last recorded owner . Recording a deed is for the purpose of letting the world know your business . 

One person in my family has a deed I gave him that he can record or not at his will . Should I drop dead he can record it if necessary if anyone tries to go for that land or show proof he has owned it for several years . Since there is no law on being recorded anyone putting a lean on it just as well be peeing up a wet rope .Trick maybe but my lawyer said it would work .

Now as to the OP if I knew of someone I could drag over with the cash to buy your place after he paid you I would sell you my Granny's champion old grey goat for $10,000 :hobbyhors


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

Sawmill Jim said:


> If there is no chance of the unrecorded deed ever showing up no harm no foul ,just get a deed from the last recorded owner . Recording a deed is for the purpose of letting the world know your business .
> 
> One person in my family has a deed I gave him that he can record or not at his will . Should I drop dead he can record it if necessary if anyone tries to go for that land or show proof he has owned it for several years . Since there is no law on being recorded anyone putting a lean on it just as well be peeing up a wet rope .Trick maybe but my lawyer said it would work .
> 
> Now as to the OP if I knew of someone I could drag over with the cash to buy your place after he paid you I would sell you my Granny's champion old grey goat for $10,000 :hobbyhors


It is still risky business. What if the last recorded deed owner dies and their relatives sell the property to someone and that deed gets recorded and yours did not? It depends on your state laws. Some places are race jurisdictions and some places are notice jurisdictions.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Declan said:


> It is still risky business. What if the last recorded deed owner dies and their relatives sell the property to someone and that deed gets recorded and yours did not? It depends on your state laws. Some places are race jurisdictions and some places are notice jurisdictions.


Would say once the non recorded deed comes to light there could be some reverse sales .Maybe that is where title insurance would be good as It is not good for much of anything else :shrug:


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Would say once the non recorded deed comes to light there could be some reverse sales .Maybe that is where title insurance would be good as It is not good for much of anything else :shrug:


Not sure about your state, but in mine the purchaser who recorded first would own it. Title insurance doesn't cover unrecorded documents, adverse possession claims or anything not revealed by the public records generally.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Declan said:


> Not sure about your state, but in mine the purchaser who recorded first would own it. Title insurance doesn't cover unrecorded documents, adverse possession claims or anything not revealed by the public records generally.


This State according to my lawyer and he is the one did the deed say dated in the year 2001 and someone records a deed dated 2010 and records it the previous deed of 2001 would stand .Ever read your warranty deed it says the seller has a right to sell or transfer ,that in case they didn't have that right the seller is responsible for all cost there of .Most don't dig into the real legal aspects as all one can in reality transfer is right of use all property is owned by the state .I think our state constitution goes so far as to say right of use proved the tax is paid . Most never really dig that far much less pay a lawyer to dig . I did :hobbyhors


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Would say once the non recorded deed comes to light there could be some reverse sales .Maybe that is where title insurance would be good as It is not good for much of anything else :shrug:


If a lien or judgment is filled in the county where the property is located against the last recorded owner of the property. It's against the property. You can't reverse out of it, it follows the property... once the lien or judgment is recorded.

I have seen dozens of loans delayed because of these issues. In some cases the judgment had been paid and not released at the Court House. In some the seller had to pay it from proceeds of the sale and in some, it was a dead deal.


When does a money judgment become a lien on real property? 
When the judgment is docketed with the County Clerk in a county where the judgment debtor owns real property, or at the date of its acquisition, as to property acquired by the debtor after the docketing of the judgment. (section 5203(a) CPLR)


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Real estate attorneys and title companies record deeds as soon as possible and a good one will double check for new liens or judgments before recording the deed.

More

if your seller fails to pay his or her debts and the seller&#8217;s creditors file liens or judgments against your property. Because creditors are permitted to file liens and judgments against assets of a debtor, if your property is still listed as an asset of your seller in the public record, you are at risk of your property being encumbered with liens or judgments that are not your own.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

po boy said:


> If a lien or judgment is filled in the county where the property is located against the last recorded owner of the property. It's against the property. You can't reverse out of it, it follows the property... once the lien or judgment is recorded.
> 
> I have seen dozens of loans delayed because of these issues. In some cases the judgment had been paid and not released at the Court House. In some the seller had to pay it from proceeds of the sale and in some, it was a dead deal.
> 
> ...


That in effect would nullify or render any bill of sale void . This land is in Ky. In the sale in 2001 even though not recorded for the world to know if someone today put a lien on it according to my lawyer the lien would be void . Ky law states land sales must be in writing no mention of recording:hobbyhors


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

I called an attorney. He said I could/should not pay a finders fee to anyone who was not an agent no matter what I called it. I said I would buy a $10,000 goat, or repay the money I borrowed, or...... I said that I needed no real estate services, just a name. "Nope"

Sure seems unreasonable but .....

So we just broke down and listed it. But if you happen to have a goat and a rich uncle.....


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Gray Wolf said:


> I called an attorney. He said I could/should not pay a finders fee to anyone who was not an agent no matter what I called it. I said I would buy a $10,000 goat, or repay the money I borrowed, or...... I said that I needed no real estate services, just a name. "Nope"
> 
> Sure seems unreasonable but .....
> 
> So we just broke down and listed it. But if you happen to have a goat and a rich uncle.....


Reason he said what he did was he didn't own a goat and the whole world knows a lawyer won't loan money :hobbyhors

I called a lawyer and told him in advance that I knew he was going to tell me not to do a deal But my question is what are you going to charge to get me out of it after I do it .He said he had never been ask that before :bow:


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

Gray Wolf said:


> I called an attorney. He said I could/should not pay a finders fee to anyone who was not an agent no matter what I called it. I said I would buy a $10,000 goat, or repay the money I borrowed, or...... I said that I needed no real estate services, just a name. "Nope"
> 
> Sure seems unreasonable but .....
> 
> So we just broke down and listed it. But if you happen to have a goat and a rich uncle.....


Reminds me when I was getting my private pilot's license. Someone said "Well, since you don't have a commercial license, you can't charge anybody to fly them....but you can sell them a $500 sandwich on their free trip." :lonergr:


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Declan said:


> Reminds me when I was getting my private pilot's license. Someone said "Well, since you don't have a commercial license, you can't charge anybody to fly them....but you can sell them a $500 sandwich on their free trip." :lonergr:


Always thought that was ridiculous. My airplane, my gas, my time.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Sawmill Jim said:


> That in effect would nullify or render any bill of sale void . This land is in Ky. In the sale in 2001 even though not recorded for the world to know if someone today put a lien on it according to my lawyer the lien would be void . Ky law states land sales must be in writing no mention of recording:hobbyhors


 I wouldn't want your attorney.


* 
382.280​*​&#56256;&#56418;&#56256;&#56418;&#56256;&#56418;*Order in which deeds and mortgages take effect.*​*
* All bona fide deeds of trust or mortgages shall take effect in the order that they are​ legally acknowledged or proved *and lodged for record*.​* Effective:​*​​​​October 1, 1942​
* History:​*​​​​Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch.[FONT=SSUNIC28+ArialUnicodeMS-Helveti]&#56256;&#56418;[/FONT]208, sec.[FONT=SSUNIC28+ArialUnicodeMS-Helveti]&#56256;&#56418;[/FONT]1, effective October 1, 1942, from​
Ky. Stat. sec.[FONT=SSUNIC28+ArialUnicodeMS-Helveti]&#56256;&#56418;[/FONT]497.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

po boy said:


> I wouldn't want your attorney.
> 
> 
> *
> ...


It is really a game of Russian Roulette. Now one would hope that once someone sold you a piece of property they would not turn around and sell it to somebody else. I asked am older than the courthouse recording clerk about this one once. She said that in all the years that she had worked there, it happened once where someone told the same tract to two different people and the second one only found out when they came to record the deed a few days after the first person had already recorded. I should have clarified though--my state is a race notice state. It is the first to record as long as that person had no actual notice of the prior deed. If the person had actual notice that there was another sale, then the race does not matter and it is the first executed that controls.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Declan said:


> It is really a game of Russian Roulette. Now one would hope that once someone sold you a piece of property they would not turn around and sell it to somebody else. I asked am older than the courthouse recording clerk about this one once. She said that in all the years that she had worked there, it happened once where someone told the same tract to two different people and the second one only found out when they came to record the deed a few days after the first person had already recorded. I should have clarified though--my state is a race notice state. It is the first to record as long as that person had no actual notice of the prior deed. If the person had actual notice that there was another sale, then the race does not matter and it is the first executed that controls.


The *Big* problem is not the likelihood the property would be resold, but the seller defaulting on *ANY* debt could make the new owner lose the property or make it more costly to remain as owner. Debt and judgments follow the property.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

po boy said:


> The *Big* problem is not the likelihood the property would be resold, but the seller defaulting on *ANY* debt could make the new owner lose the property or make it more costly to remain as owner. Debt and judgments follow the property.


In Ky. it takes darn near a act of God for anyone to put a lien on a piece of property and the person of record has to be notified of a court date first .
Here is what I wanted to do with everything with this should anyone find the trustee they don't have to reveal the owners of the trust short of a court order .
http://www.assetprotectionplanners.com/articles/land-trusts

Or better yet http://www.lodmell.com/legal-asset-protection-services/asset-protection-trust

Lot of ways to skin a cat :hobbyhors


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Sawmill Jim said:


> In Ky. it takes darn near a act of God for anyone to put a lien on a piece of property and the person of record has to be notified of a court date first .
> Lot of ways to skin a cat :hobbyhors


 That's the way it is everywhere. A judgment has to be obtained through the court system. The person is served and given a court date. If the judgment is given, it should then be recorded in the county where that person lives.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

It is easy enough to get the judgment--they owe you or they don't and once you have that you just have to carry a copy to the appropriate court (circuit Court here in VA) and record it (docket it).

I suppose you could wait out the judgment to expire because unless it is a fortune, most people do not go to the effort of executing on it against property, at least in my area. 

The problem with trusts is that trusts pay income at the top rate. An LLC with a paid register agent is probably the more practical way if you are worried about your privacy except in relation to the government.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Declan said:


> It is easy enough to get the judgment--they owe you or they don't and once you have that you just have to carry a copy to the appropriate court (circuit Court here in VA) and record it (docket it).
> 
> I suppose you could wait out the judgment to expire because unless it is a fortune, most people do not go to the effort of executing on it against property, at least in my area.
> 
> The problem with trusts is that trusts pay income at the top rate. An LLC with a paid register agent is probably the more practical way if you are worried about your privacy except in relation to the government.


Even if a judgement was easy to get putting a lien on property for it is another thing all together provided one owning land has a good lawyer .Here it would need to be a large amount as lawyer fees would get stupid for both parties fast . Most good lawyers with a bad case will try to delay and put off court dates for years or the debtor files chapter 7 and there goes that judgement .


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Even if a judgement was easy to get putting a lien on property for it is another thing all together provided one owning land has a good lawyer .Here it would need to be a large amount as lawyer fees would get stupid for both parties fast . Most good lawyers with a bad case will try to delay and put off court dates for years or the debtor files chapter 7 and there goes that judgement .


Once the judgment is recorded at the courthouse it will show up in a title search. It's not really against the property, but is against any assets owned by the debtor, which includes Real Property.
Folks doing title search look for judgments in the judgment book (index). I doubt a creditor with a judgment can seize real property in any state, but obtaining a mortgage or selling the property should require the judgment be satisfied.

Here is some info on KY


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

po boy said:


> Once the judgment is recorded at the courthouse it will show up in a title search. It's not really against the property, but is against any assets owned by the debtor, which includes Real Property.
> Folks doing title search look for judgments in the judgment book (index). I doubt a creditor with a judgment can seize real property in any state, but obtaining a mortgage or selling the property should require the judgment be satisfied.
> 
> Here is some info on KY


In Virginia, a judgment creditor can petition to have the property auctioned off to satisfy the judgment. Not a lot of people do it because it is so expensive and usually people like that end up with lots of judgments that all have to be paid off. The Court appoints a special commissioner to do all the necessary legal stuff and then it is sold, usually at a sheriff's auction, after all the liens are paid off and the cost of the sale, anything left goes back to the debtor. It is really like a foreclosure sale but has to be ordered by the Court first.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

This discussion about recording deeds is just one example of why one should use a licensed broker in real estate transactions. Lots of opinions with out really understanding the laws in ones own state.... that can lead to an overloaded court system quick! Licensed brokers are required (in my state) to understand the real estate laws in the state they operate in. This is accomplished by requiring all agents to take real estate classes (primarily real estate law) and pass rigorous tests prior to issuing a license along with continuing education classes every year to maintain their license. Saves everyone a lot of grief and misery in the long run. 

When I was an active agent we spent many idle hours discussing these types issues in our office... odd how answers to these kinds of questions get different when one is required to put "your honor" at the beginning of a statement, just as you would in a court of law.


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## DAVID In Wisconsin (Dec 3, 2002)

OP, I think is absolutely ridiculous that a landowner cannot legally give money to whomever he or she chooses. Your place is beautiful and I wish you luck in sellin it.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

We have always bought and sold using a title company and escrow company. All deeds are free and clear and we hire an attourney if there is a contract to be carried. The buyer is charged with finding the money. All exactly the same as an agent or anyone else could do if skilled. We can legally do all those things ourselves. No problem. It just takes a few hours.

The thing we can't do is give anyone a finders fee for the introduction to the buyer. But for some reason it's fine to give an agent 6% for the introduction and a few hours work coordinating everything.

Oh well, we listed it. But the only real reason is to get it in the MLS since, indeed, most buyers end up there sooner or later. Living out here, we need all the exposure we can get.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

I don't know what type of Agents you had, but makes me wonder. While I was a member of the NWMLS, working in Kitsap County and beyond (always worked multiple Counties), I put all my listings on Zillow myself, and they were on literally hundreds of sites. Now, that I am in Clallam County, I am a member of both the OLS and the NWMLS. That means my listings go on both, still on Zillow, and hundreds of other sites. Most importantly, my listings are on a site linked to the biggest real estate blog in WA State (my Broker has written over 1,700 articles...)

http://www.sequim-real-estate-blog.com/about/

*Here, I am going to interject, I am making a point, not soliciting on this thread*

What is my point? *Try finding a Realtor who has a large presence as a Selling Broker *(called that here in WA). _The Realtors who are representing the most Buyers are the best Listing Brokers to get._ Not only do you get the online presence, but you also retain a Broker who may also bring you the Buyer! If so, I'd recommend requesting a drop in commission if closed within the same Brokerage (Dual Agency involving one or both Brokers in the same real estate brokerage).

Now, for more information. Yes, you are at a disadvantage in trying to try to match the internet presence for your home that Realtors can get. If your experience with Selling Brokers really is how you described, you haven't met a professional one. I spend many hours on every transaction; it would take too long to describe what I do. That said, every transaction is different, so my work also varies.

Many times, I have been told. "Hey, I just listed my property. See if you can bring me a Buyer." Hmmm, rarely do they understand until I explain.

I am a Listing Broker and a Selling Broker. When I am retained to represent a Buyer, I show him every single property that fits his criteria. I have no control over what that criteria is. If there is a FSBO that meets the criteria of this Buyer, I will show it. However, I can't advertise the FSBO to attract a specific Buyer. The right Buyer for that FSBO has to retain me.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

Like with any profession, there are good seeds and bad seeds. I personally have no high regard for realtors. I do know people who have had similar experiences as mine with them who feel the same way. I know a few people whose realtors have gone above and beyond to get the deal done when inspections revealed issues, but they seem to be the exception instead of the rule in my area. There are also way too many realtors in the flipping business in my area to trust that they are not self-dealing.


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## DAVID In Wisconsin (Dec 3, 2002)

Gray Wolf, FYI there are services that will put your listing on MLS a for a fee for future reference. I buy and sell real estate and I would be more comfortable listing a place like yours (secluded and not cheap) with my realtor because I want an offer on anything I put up for sale within 30 days so the listing doesn't get old and People don't expect many concessions on my part. I still sell some houses on own myself so I am not necessarily of the mindset that nothing ever gets accomplished properly without a real estate agent. Good luck!


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Seems to me you could use a wholesaler to do what you need to do. Not sure the specific laws in your state but most states allow it.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

mreynolds said:


> Seems to me you could use a wholesaler to do what you need to do. Not sure the specific laws in your state but most states allow it.


How would that help? Wholesalers sell at a discounted rate and he wouldn't net as much this way.



> Yvonne's hubby- This discussion about recording deeds is just one example of why one should use a licensed broker in real estate transactions. Lots of opinions with out really understanding the laws in ones own state.... that can lead to an overloaded court system quick! Licensed brokers are required (in my state) to understand the real estate laws in the state they operate in. This is accomplished by requiring all agents to take real estate classes (primarily real estate law) and pass rigorous tests prior to issuing a license along with continuing education classes every year to maintain their license. Saves everyone a lot of grief and misery in the long run.
> 
> When I was an active agent we spent many idle hours discussing these types issues in our office... odd how answers to these kinds of questions get different when one is required to put "your honor" at the beginning of a statement, just as you would in a court of law.


Excellent post!

Gray Wolf, again, it is a shame you have never come across a professional Realtor. Your description of what we do (a few hours of work)? That is hardly enough time to do a showing, much less complete a Purchase & Sale Agreement, go over that with the Buyer, get everything signed around, review the Title Report, be present during the Home Inspection and any other Inspection required (that is just the Selling Brokers work). The Listing Broker would need to interview the Seller, get a lot of information, walk the property, take pictures of the property and home, then review county information, edit and prepare the pictures, input the listing, upload the pictures, and then market the listing. Even the worst Agent spends a lot more time than a few hours to even be the Listing Broker. Of course, there isn't as much time spent if the Listing Broker is a Dual Agent. However, most offer a discount when it is closed within the same brokerage. All the aforementioned is just the minimum of work required. Those of us who are professionals do a lot more. 

That said, I feel badly you haven't sold your home yet. It is a wonderful place!!! I really hope you sell it, anyway you can.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

>How would that help? Wholesalers sell at a discounted rate and he wouldn't net as much this way.<

Most wholesalers only make like 5-10k on a deal. The OP was talking about giving away up to 10k to find a buyer. Sounds like a perfect fit to me. Some would even do it for less than 5k.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

mreynolds said:


> >How would that help? Wholesalers sell at a discounted rate and he wouldn't net as much this way.<
> 
> Most wholesalers only make like 5-10k on a deal. The OP was talking about giving away up to 10k to find a buyer. Sounds like a perfect fit to me. Some would even do it for less than 5k.


He won't get his asking price going through a wholesaler the way they operate in WA State, to my knowledge (the Buyers are typically investors who expect to pay under market value). Statistically, listing a home with an Agent, not only gets far more exposure for the property, but the Seller typically nets more than if he sells FSBO. Few Buyers will pay the same for a FSBO as they will for a home listed by an Agent, as they typically know there are no commissions to pay... Appraisers make adjustments for FSBO's as compared to listed properties, when using them as comps.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Yes, I agree with you but he was talking about giving away 10k to someone to sell his house. A realtor probably wont cost that much to begin with unless the property is higher value. Sounded like he was looking for a quick sale and giving away 10k while trying to find some way to do this. A wholesaler is the only legal way I know of for that except using a realtor.


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## DAVID In Wisconsin (Dec 3, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> Yes, I agree with you but he was talking about giving away 10k to someone to sell his house. A realtor probably wont cost that much to begin with unless the property is higher value. Sounded like he was looking for a quick sale and giving away 10k while trying to find some way to do this. A wholesaler is the only legal way I know of for that except using a realtor.


His property is higher priced it would have commissions of $30,000 plus.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

mreynolds said:


> Yes, I agree with you but he was talking about giving away 10k to someone to sell his house. A realtor probably wont cost that much to begin with unless the property is higher value. Sounded like he was looking for a quick sale and giving away 10k while trying to find some way to do this. A wholesaler is the only legal way I know of for that except using a realtor.


Regardless of a desire to sell faster, it isn't possible to get top or close to market value utilizing a Wholesaler. Yes, you are right, it is the only other legal alternative.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> But for some reason it's fine to give an agent 6% for the introduction and a few hours work coordinating everything.


The reason for this law is because if you make a product scarce, you can charge more for it. 

If _anyone_ could act as a seller's agent, probably a greater number would, some for a lesser fee. (In this case, the "finder's fee" offered appears to be about a third of a traditional realtor's commission.) This would cut into agents' profits. 

So realtors long ago lobbied their elected officials to make rules requiring licensure. This limits the number of players and allows them to charge higher fees. Whether it serves the public interest is a separate issue and not one of great concern to politicians as long as lobbyists are waving checks under their noses! 

Incidentally, this is why states require licensure for various professions ranging from hair-braiding to interior decorating. It's not really to protect the public (no one has ever been harmed by ugly curtains!) but to shield existing businesses from competition.


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## nosedirt (Sep 24, 2014)

GrayWolf, First, let me say that you have a very nice property. Looks like you have put a lot of time and effort into it. I would imagine that you find it hard to let it go. I hope it all works out for you.
Next, I have to ditto everything that Christie has said. In addition, I could do brain surgery on you but I'm not licensed in the state of Washington so you probably would not want to pay me to do that. LOL Point being, you have a very unique property. This is not a cookie cutter house in the middle of the newest hot selling suburban area. This is a one in a million find. There are most likely very few properties exactly the same as yours. It is in a higher price range than most buyers are looking. What I am saying is at 1/2 a million bucks you don't want an amateur doing the work of selling it. 
I used to sell real estate and I will be the first to admit that it doesn't look like a Realtor does much. But if you can't sell the property, or find lenders for the buyers, or handle the legal issues that so often arise, a Realtor is a great person to have in your employ. With that said, some agents are used to the easy sell. Your property is unique therefore it will not be an easy sell. I took on a property once that had been in the hands of almost every office in town, the seller and family tried for over a year to sell an d everyone was frustrated by the time I took the listing. I knew from experience what type of person would buy that property so I went to where those buyers were. People spending a 1/2 mil on a property don't look at craigslist too often. Hopefully the agent you have chosen has experience with your type of property and if so things should go well. It's like any other business, some people can be real lazy. But if your look, you can find go getters that know how to get the job done. If you could turn back the clock and pay 40 grand way back when you decided to sell, it would most likely be done already and you would already be on to your next adventure. 
I do hope that this goes better for you. Listen to Christie, she is a very sharp gal.
If I could get my wife to move to Washington, maybe we would be doing business. haha But she wants to go the other direction. Good luck.


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## joshcheney (Feb 2, 2011)

Just a few quick thoughts - I'm a licensed agent in Maine

In Maine, the restrictions on real estate brokerage were put in place to protect the consumer (either buyers or sellers) - the state doesn't collect any more or less money on a private party transaction than an open market transaction. 

What you are talking about would be considered real estate brokerage in Maine, and I believe that if one of the attorneys involved caught wind of it in the deal, they would not be permitted to help you break the law. 

With regard to print ads, the only reason that we continue to run them is that they are good for maintaining relationships with sellers. They are the single most expensive form of advertising we do, and the single least effective, perhaps one step in front of handing out flyers at the grocery store. I think it's been a good solid 4 years since I had someone call me up and say "I was looking at your ad in the paper, and was wondering if you could tell me a little more".

Looking briefly at the photos on the link you posted, I can identify two problems that you would have in my market. One, there is a disconnect between the level of finish in the home, the level of finish on the outside of the home, and the level of finish that most people would expect with a property of this type. The interior of the home is sort of a modern, almost suburban sort of feel, while the outside is a little more craftsman, cottage style, but the setting seems like it would lend itself more to the lodge/camp type of feel. 

In my area, this price range of property sells, on average, about once a year, and makes up about 0.5% of all transaction volume. I have no idea what the prices are like in your area, but with the feedback (and lack thereof) you've received, it's either a matter of time or money - you either need to be patient and wait for that one right buyer to come along, or you need to be willing to lower the price enough so that someone who is a 100% perfect buyer will be interested. 

As I type that, two other things come to mind. One, financing is probably going to be a challenge for this type of home, which means that you've limited your range of potential buyers even further. 

Two, it took me a little bit of looking to find the price on the page. One of the things that I am looking for when I'm looking at a FSBO is a seller who has all of the relevant information immediately available. If there isn't a price listed (obviously), and the relevant disclosures, deeds, permits, septic designs, electrical system designs, etc, are not all readily available, that's going to be a problem for me, especially for this level of home relative to the rest of the market. 

The only other thing that you are going to be able to do, from my perspective, is reach out to some of the local agents, give them the property information in an easily relay-able format, and make them aware that you are willing to work with them, should they bring you a buyer. And then make sure that you follow up with every single one of them every couple of weeks. As an agent, if I don't see the property in the MLS, it doesn't always come to mind, and as annoying as I might find the repeated followup, it is necessary if I'm going to remember it.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> In Maine, the restrictions on real estate brokerage were put in place to protect the consumer (either buyers or sellers) - the state doesn't collect any more or less money on a private party transaction than an open market transaction.


Politicians collected $$$ from lobbyists to put laws in place to limit the competition realtors (and hair braiders, and interior decorators) face. Ask yourself, "What, exactly, is the consumer being protected _from_ here?"

The seller is not looking for an "amateur" to handle the finer points of the transaction, like doing a title search (for that matter, the realtor doesn't do that, either!) -- he's looking for_ people to bring him prospective buyers. _The only potential for harm is the possibility that the "amateur" might waste his time with tire-kickers, but it's also possible the realtor might do that, too. In any case don't think that sort of inconvenience rises to the level of requiring laws to "protect" the consumer from it.

Now, the MLS is a very good tool. It's useful to the point where it's difficult to sell a property without being listed on it. It's entirely appropriate, IMO, for realtors to refuse access to the MLS to anyone who won't play their game -- they built it, they should be able to control access to it, IMO. But not allowing nonlicensed individuals to act as finders? That's "dirty pool," AFAIC.


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## joshcheney (Feb 2, 2011)

willow_girl said:


> he's looking for_ people to bring him prospective buyers. _The only potential for harm is the possibility that the "amateur" might waste his time with tire-kickers, but it's also possible the realtor might do that, too. In any case don't think that sort of inconvenience rises to the level of requiring laws to "protect" the consumer from it.


I am not going to say that you are incorrect. Perhaps there should be an allowance for that sort of transaction. However, there has to be a line drawn somewhere between being a helpful friend and practicing real estate brokerage, because I believe that real estate is an area where the public can be subject to significant abuse. 

Let's do a little role play.

Don - Seller
Jim - Friend-who-is-not-an-agent
Stan - Buyer

Don1 says to Jim1 "I'll give $10k to anyone who brings a buyer who closes this deal". Jim1, being a prudent individual, wants that arrangement in writing, so they write up an agreement to that effect. Jim1 goes out and spreads the word to Stan1, who for all intents and purposes is Don1's equal in all regards. They put the deal together, and everyone walks away happy. 

That's a great perfect world example, and if everything worked that way, there wouldn't be a need for real estate brokerage restrictions.

However, let's say that Don2 is not quite as quick as he is. Let's make him very inexperienced, but keep Stan2 at the same level he was at in the first example. Don2 signs his contract with Jim2, and Stan2 shows up at Don2's door, asking a whole bunch of questions that are going to negatively impact Don's ability to negotiate from a position of power. Jim2 isn't going to say anything (if he is even there), because Jim2's only desire is to get the deal done as soon as possible. Don2 spills his guts to Stan2, and ends up selling the property under less favorable conditions than Don1.

Third scenario, Don3 is equal to Don1, but Stan3 is kind of thick. Don3 and Jim3 still just want to get the deal done as quickly as possible, so they just gloss over some of the required disclosure items, and push through to close so they can get their money. Stan3 wasn't told that the septic system was installed without a permit by the seller, because he didn't think to ask, and now he is stuck trying to sue Don3 for damages to get the system fixed. 

Now, in Don2's situation, it's obvious that he needs help from someone who is more experienced that him, to protect him from being harmed financially in this transaction - someone who knows enough to not tell a potential buyer that Don2 will take the very first offer that comes across the table, or who knows enough to not commit to a price without thinking about it[1]. Jim2 could have helped, but his motivation was to just close the deal, not to help Don2.

In Stan3's situation, Don3 had a legal obligation to make disclosures about the septic system, but didn't. Jim3 might have known, might not have known, but had no vested interest in trying to dig deeper to make sure that Don3 was doing the right thing.

So what is the solution? Well, we start by making sure that Jim knows and understands the rules regarding property transfers (to protect Don2), and we alter Jim's contract so that Jim has a fiduciary responsibility to the Seller that he signed a contract with (to protect Stan3).

So, Don4 and Jim4 sign a contract, and Jim4 is there to protect Don4. Who is there to protect Stan4? Nobody - Stan4 is on his own. This is why buyer brokerage came in to play, so that Stan4 (the poor bloke) could have someone that he could explain his situation to and help him get where he needs to go without loosing his shirt.

Now, the difficulty that comes into play is that Jim has claimed, in writing, that he understands the rules and regulations around property transfer - how do we measure that? Well, we could make it a requirement that he go and take a class, and give him a certificate of completion, and let him show that to Don and others when signing that contract. 

That is essentially what a real estate license is. It's frighteningly easy to get one (a quick study could take the Maine course online in a weekend). Finding a brokerage to hang your license in would be a little more difficult, but wouldn't be impossible around here. 

The difficulty is that when doing so, you assume a tremendous amount of liability, both as a brokerage and as an agent - so much so that if you gave most people the option of just signing up as an agent, and explaining what they were now liable for, they wouldn't be willing to do it. 

Now, that is just the public protection aspect - I didn't even touch on the market intelligence, marketing reach, negotiation approaches, etc. Those are all good reasons to have an agent on your side, but outside of the scope of the comment you made.

[1] - True story, I had a seller and a buyer who knew each other, and the savvy buyer talked to the seller in a social situation, and got him to commit to $700/acre, when the going rate was $750 (which the seller knew from our discussions). Seller came to me to try and negotiate a higher price, but the buyer wanted to hold him to his word at $700. The seller missed out on $5k because the buyer used a high-pressure approach in a situation that was legal but just generally uncool.


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## joshcheney (Feb 2, 2011)

That's a lot longer than I thought it was going to be...

Sorry...


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

joshcheney said:


> I believe that real estate is an area where the public can be subject to significant abuse.


Yeppers, and even with all the laws, along with real estate commissions rules, a lot of abuse occurs. When dealing with large amounts of money there will always be someone who will let greed take over their ethics. The real estate industry with their self imposed regulations eliminate a tremendous amount of such nonsense even though a few cases still fall through the cracks. I was a licensed realtor for 11 years, today I have one of my properties listed for sale with a realtor.... for all of the right reasons. I am more than happy to pay the fees to get the job done, and done correctly.


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## DAVID In Wisconsin (Dec 3, 2002)

I believe that as Americans we should have the choice to pay a real estate agent or pay anyone we choose a finders fee. I don't believe the current laws protect anyone except for realtors. We have many laws that are said to "protect" us and are actually to protect unions, people who have the money to hire lobbyists, etc. It is absurd that the OP cannot legally pay anyone he wants to aid in selling his property. Using a realtor should be a choice not forced upon anyone. I often use realtors and admire mine tremendously but can and do certain things without him to my benefit. We shouldn't be forced to.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> So what is the solution?


A "finder" who merely connects an interested party with a seller shouldn't be presumed to have any fiduciary responsibility toward either, IMO.

In example 2: By choosing to go the FSBO route, the seller is assuming responsibility for negotiations. No one is holding a gun to his head and forcing him to sign on the dotted line. If he makes a bad deal, that's on him. 

In example 3: Again, the seller ought to understand the law if he chooses to go FSBO. If he doesn't, and gets sued for failure to disclose a known defect, that's on him, too. 

In example 4: Stan certainly has the option of hiring a buyer's agent if he feels he needs representation. If he overestimates his abilities and winds up in a jam, that's on him. 

No one is saying that a person can't or shouldn't hire a realtor if they feel they need representation! OTOH, if you're able and willing to research the legal aspects, do your own marketing and negotiate with buyers, why pay a realtor? And yes, I have sold several FSBOs without any problems whatsoever.


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