# NYC Schools Bow to Islam



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Schools in New York City have decided to bow down to Islam by shutting down on two Muslim holidays: Eid al-Adha and Eid al-Fitr. All public schools in NYC will be closed during the holidays, depriving students of receiving an education during that time.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/05/n...-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Here we go  Wait till the Jewish folk and Catholics want their holidays (holy days) acknowleged as well. I bet there are some other religions that want their days acknowledged as well. Pretty soon, no school due to the holiday schedule.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

So wait, they can shut down for Christmas but that is not considered:

"depriving students of receiving an education during that time."????

And not only that, for next year, one of the holidays is in July. While one is one day is Sept. Not like the two week break they get at the end of December....like that isn't for any one specific group...

Heck, some even get a Jewish days, here is a link that shows some will be out for Rosh Hashanah:

http://brooklyn.about.com/od/learni...rooklyn-Elementary-Middle-And-High-School.htm

So seriously, they already get out for Christmas, some get out for Easter, factor in the Rosh day and we need to say they are bowing down for two holidays? Guess they may have figured if they were bending over for the Christians and Jews, why not the Muslims?


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

sidepasser said:


> Here we go  Wait till the Jewish folk and Catholics want their holidays (holy days) acknowleged as well. I bet there are some other religions that want their days acknowledged as well. Pretty soon, no school due to the holiday schedule.



In some places this is already occurring and yet we don't or didn't see any post lamenting that fact nor the accusations of bowing down to their religions. Weird isn't it?


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Kids should go to school year round . if their family wants to observe the Christian. Jewish, Pagan ,Muslim or a generic non religious break schedule, they follow whatever schedule their parents list as the family preference.

A number of school systems already hold classes year round with break schedules that more easily fit the parents work and leave schedules depending on which class attendance track schedule the parents choose.

Two to 3 months summer vacation plus almost a month of holiday/teacher work days off for kids has not been a logical approach for decades and in most cases with both parents or a single parent working is more of a time and financial burden on families than a vacation schedule anyway.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Personally I don't see how kids even get an education these days with all the "in service days", teacher work days, spring, fall and winter breaks, summer vacation, Cchristmas breaks and other assorted holidays, not to mention snow days/tornado days/hurricane days thrown in to boot.

Glad my kids are grown  Son went to a private school, they didn't have all those breaks/holidays at the time. Standard 2 months out for summer, Christmas break and a spring break. That was pretty much it. No teacher in service days and no fall and winter breaks.

Oh and lots of religions went to that school. If you needed to take off for a holy day, that was fine, just make up the work. A friend of my son was 7th day Adventist..he never got a holiday off for religious reasons. So his family took the week after Christmas and went to the Islands every year - my son was so jealous


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Wonder what % of the students are muslim? According to wikipedia:

In the 2010-2011, Hispanics and Latino students made up 39.9% of the student population. African Americans made up 30.3% of the student population, Non-Hispanic Whites made up 14.3% and Asian American students made up 15.0% of the student populace. Native Americans made up the remaining 0.5% of the student body.[20]

Are Arabs included in "non hispanic whites"? So if you assume some of the African Americans are of African culture and muslims, and a small percent of those non-hispanic whites would be Arab muslims, could there even be 10% muslim kids in the school system? 

Unless there is a substantial population to be affected, then yes it's bowing or sucking up to that one demographic. I looked at their calendar and they conveniently schedule their "winter recess" and "spring recess" over Christmas and Easter so they don't have to name them as actual holidays. But Rosh Hashana was named. There's nothing wrong with equal rights but when you have to act like you are ashamed of your own culture/traditions/religion or others might be offended, that ain't right!


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

Just one more good reason to eliminate the public school systems


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

When I was growing up, we had Easter off from school, pretty much no matter what.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Christmas and Easter went away as did Washington.

We have political controlled winter break, spring break, and president day.

Also Martin Luther king day and now two holidays ....of faith based rational....if the use the name of the event .....I logically must cry discrimination.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

That really burns me too ... I was born on Washington's birthday :flame:


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Johnny Dolittle said:


> That really burns me too ... I was born on Washington's birthday :flame:


Flag Day here


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

HDRider said:


> Schools in New York City have decided to bow down to Islam by shutting down on two Muslim holidays: Eid al-Adha and Eid al-Fitr. All public schools in NYC will be closed during the holidays, depriving students of receiving an education during that time.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/05/n...-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well


But viewed together through the lens of the Muslim Brotherhood's plan to dominate America and bring her down from within, dismissing them as coincidence would be to ignore a carefully constructed plan. Whether attacks on cops, downright crazy immigration policies, the persecution of American citizens by the IRS, or the takeover of school curricula, there is a rhythm to all of these scandals that jives seamlessly with the song of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Read more at http://freedomoutpost.com/2015/03/t...ts-on-freedoms-explained/#63KhewFSyd4zUYaV.99


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

MLK is often celebrated as I blow out candles.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

sidepasser said:


> Here we go  Wait till the Jewish folk and Catholics want their holidays (holy days) acknowleged as well. I bet there are some other religions that want their days acknowledged as well. Pretty soon, no school due to the holiday schedule.


And what about the opener for fishing and hunting? Don't forget us ********!j


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

HDRider said:


> Schools in New York City have decided to bow down to Islam by shutting down on two Muslim holidays: Eid al-Adha and Eid al-Fitr. All public schools in NYC will be closed during the holidays, depriving students of receiving an education during that time.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/05/n...-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well


Good point.

Our children would be even less-stupid, by attending school on the days, they get off for Christian holidays as well.

There is estimated to be between 700,000 - i million Muslims in NYC

It probably would make less sense if every school in America gave these extra days off, but the teachers and and students would not care.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

MO_cows said:


> Wonder what % of the students are muslim? According to wikipedia:
> 
> In the 2010-2011, Hispanics and Latino students made up 39.9% of the student population. African Americans made up 30.3% of the student population, Non-Hispanic Whites made up 14.3% and Asian American students made up 15.0% of the student populace. Native Americans made up the remaining 0.5% of the student body.[20]
> 
> ...


Theses school holiday day changes for for NYC, not the entire country.

600,000 best population guestimate.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

plowjockey said:


> Theses school holiday day changes for for NYC, not the entire country.
> 
> 600,000 best population guestimate.


The stats I quoted from wiki are for the NYC school district. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Department_of_Education

(see demographics)

That's why I have to concur with HDR that it's just an appeasement move to make the muslim holidays, school holidays, when they represent such a small part of the student body. But yet nobody seems to have any concern about appeasing or offending Christians, the majority, by calling their major holidays "winter recess" and "spring recess". Hmmmm, isn't that interesting? Remember, just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean that they really aren't out to get ya!


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

MO_cows said:


> Wonder what % of the students are muslim? According to wikipedia:
> 
> In the 2010-2011, Hispanics and Latino students made up 39.9% of the student population. African Americans made up 30.3% of the student population, Non-Hispanic Whites made up 14.3% and Asian American students made up 15.0% of the student populace. Native Americans made up the remaining 0.5% of the student body.[20]
> 
> Are Arabs included in "non hispanic whites"? So if you assume some of the African Americans are of African culture and muslims, and a small percent of those non-hispanic whites would be Arab muslims, could there even be 10% muslim kids in the school system?


Your Islamic demographic assumptions aren't quite right...

There are many Muslims in America who are neither Arab, nor recent African transplants. Off the top of my head, I can name several groups or sects that traditionally don't fit into those categories:

Muslims who immigrated from Bosnia(mostly Caucasian)

Members of the Nation of Islam (mostly black Americans born and raised in US)

The American Muslim Society (mostly black Americans born and raised in US)

Members of the Moorish Science Temple (mostly black Americans born and raised in US)

Members of the Newaubian Nation (mostly black Americans born and raised in US)

I live in Syracuse NY and we have a lot of Muslims. We have a lot of colleges in the area (Syracuse University, SUNY-ESF, Cornell, community colleges, etc..) and medical facilities that often hire Muslim staff/faculty that are more likely to fit the "Arab" description . Our area served as a resettlement community for fleeing Bosnians and Somalis.

Muslims are not just immigrants or 1st/ 2nd generation citizens. Many have roots in this country dating back to when the first slave ships arrived in the New World.

I found this report that cites some statistics about the numbers of Muslims in America:

https://www.tanenbaum.org/sites/default/files/Muslims%20and%20Islam%20in%20the%20US%20Fact%20Sheet%20FORMATTED.pdf

Edited to add: The author of much of the research, Ihsan Bagby did not include several of the Muslim sects/groups that I mentioned in his numbers because they are not all considered to be Muslim according to orthodox standards.


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

If the Muslim population for the district is high enough, and the parents of the kids typically take the kids out anyway (I would for Christmas), then the district is probably getting hurt in the old wallet on those days. It would not be a stupid decision if that were the case. 

Plus, if it is nice out that day, it would be a great day to get out and love your neighbor.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

If there are enough muslim students and faculty that attendance noticeably drops on those holidays, disrupting normal operations, then it would make sense to close the schools. But I sincerely doubt that, especially after seeing how they "whitewashed" their calendar to omit the names of the Christian holidays. This just doesn't pass the sniff test.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

TheMartianChick said:


> Your Islamic demographic assumptions aren't quite right...
> 
> There are many Muslims in America who are neither Arab, nor recent African transplants. Off the top of my head, I can name several groups or sects that traditionally don't fit into those categories:
> 
> ...


If one of them gives me their koran to read, will I find what all muslim terrorists live by? What muslims do when it comes to gays, how they mutilate their women, classify Woman as 1/3 of a "person" , ect.ect. 
How does any Lib.defend the muslims? Because the libs covet CONTROL? There is no reason any freedom lover would protect islam/muslim ideology .


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

Oggie said:


> When I was growing up, we had Easter off from school, pretty much no matter what.


Easter Sunday, Huh.:bored:


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

joseph97297 said:


> So wait, they can shut down for Christmas but that is not considered:
> 
> "depriving students of receiving an education during that time."????
> 
> ...


You do know, don't you, that Christmas is a national holiday?


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

They already close down for Jewish and Catholic christian holidays. So why is this an outrage? Probably Muslims in NYC represent a good sized percentage of the population. From what I've read the NYC schools close on "Rushashana" and "Yom Kippur", two Jewish holidays.

They are also closed on Christmas and Easter, which covers the christians.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

edcopp said:


> Easter Sunday, Huh.:bored:



Yep, every Sunday there is no public school.

And a lot of public schools also have a quiet agreement to keep from scheduling school activities on Wednesday evenings because it is considered church night.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

7thswan said:


> If one of them gives me their koran to read, will I find what all muslim terrorists live by? What muslims do when it comes to gays, how they mutilate their women, classify Woman as 1/3 of a "person" , ect.ect.
> How does any Lib.defend the muslims? Because the libs covet CONTROL? There is no reason any freedom lover would protect islam/muslim ideology .


As a freedom lover, I find it absurd that some feel that it is alright to recognize or accommodate the religious holidays of one group and not another. I guess freedom means different things to different people. 

Personally, I would not be offended if all religious holidays were omitted from the school calendar...including the ones that have had winter and spring breaks strategically constructed around them. Days off could be strategically placed to deliberately miss all of the holidays of the major religions. No religion should receive preferential treatment over another within a government agency.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I would rather see all religious holidays removed from public schools than see Muslim holidays added to the PS calender.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

7thswan said:


> If one of them gives me their koran to read, will I find what all muslim terrorists live by? What muslims do when it comes to gays, how they mutilate their women, classify Woman as 1/3 of a "person" , ect.ect.
> 
> How does any Lib.defend the muslims? Because the libs covet CONTROL? There is no reason any freedom lover would protect islam/muslim ideology .



I'm curious how you conclude that a factual response showing several sects of non Arab Muslims is an indicator of one's political beliefs or a need for control.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Oggie said:


> Yep, every Sunday there is no public school.
> 
> And a lot of public schools also have a quiet agreement to keep from scheduling school activities on Wednesday evenings because it is considered church night.


That's how it is here. Not even hockey practice is scheduled!


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

One year my employer sent out a personnel file update form asking us to list our religious preferences. 

That was when I formally recognized my Pagan family upbringing to primarily put me at the top of the list for the Christmas triple overtime pay in the customer phone in technical support center for the products we produced that often found parents in need of talk through assistance.

My listing also allowed me to take leave without prejudice on October 31st if it fell during my work week so I could take the kids trick or treating.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

The number of days that schools are not engaged in actually teaching children should be limited. If holidays are added, then it should come from the pool of holidays already too extensive in most school calendars. 
It seems the one thing that is at the bottom of everyone's education list is actual education. Darn irritating nuisance students are.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

Shrek said:


> Kids should go to school year round .
> 
> A number of school systems already hold classes year round with break schedules that more easily fit the parents work and leave schedules depending on which class attendance track schedule the parents choose.
> 
> Two to 3 months summer vacation plus almost a month of holiday/teacher work days off for kids has not been a logical approach for decades and in most cases with both parents or a single parent working is more of a time and financial burden on families than a vacation schedule anyway.


Oh Shrek, then you might as well bend over and grab your ankles . . . . .

Because the teachers who will be working more hours and more days aren't going to do it without a pay raise - so the school district will have to raise taxes so you can pay in more to pay the teachers.

You see, the teachers not only get a salary as a teacher, but many of them also work those summer months that they have off, in another field - most likely taking a job of their students would have gotten. 

Do you really expect teachers to live on $60,000.00 yearly salaries with the best health and retirement benefits around just working their teaching gig?


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

bowdonkey said:


> And what about the opener for fishing and hunting? Don't forget us ********!j



Here we get the week off prior to Thanksgiving as Deer Break.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

Tricky Grama said:


> You do know, don't you, that Christmas is a national holiday?


Not saying that it isn't, but is it not a religious holiday? Would you be acceptable of other religious holidays being recognized? 

And be careful, some of the "Constitution only' folks will be outraged that since there is no mention in our founding papers of Christmas that we shouldn't be recognizing it as a "National Holiday".....(although the term is Federal Holiday isn't it?).


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

My 12 year old is in an online public school. She had a whole unit teaching the peacefulness of the Islamic religion. In another assignment she was to compose a letter of advice to some western African leader. And the core math she has leaves an awful lot to be desired. Back to home school for her next year, even if I have to dip into retirement to pay for the very nice home school curriculum on DVD.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

TheMartianChick said:


> As a freedom lover, I find it absurd that some feel that it is alright to recognize or accommodate the religious holidays of one group and not another. I guess freedom means different things to different people.
> 
> .


Unfortunately even government has a history. Summer off is no longer reasonable with air conditioning and few farms needing kids but it persists as the teachers like the time off. 
Christmas is just the same legacy from days prior government domination of education. If that system were created now, something different would be created. But teachers like the time off there too.
So now people chose to be offended by that history and the support given to it by teachers and think that their new status should be immediately recognized by the same status.
I can't wait until the Declaration of Independence. The Constitution, the Gettysburg Address, etc can not be taught in school because they mention God. Is there no room in people's heads any more for anything except their own perspective? Of what use is history if it is to be made over to suit every time something changes.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

True freedom means accepting that if 1 religion gets days off, all religions have that right.

I may not agree with islam, but their "holy" days are as valid as those of the catholic church.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

MJsLady said:


> True freedom means accepting that if 1 religion gets days off, all religions have that right.
> 
> I may not agree with islam, but their "holy" days are as valid as those of the catholic church.


And has that not been accommodated by allowing excused absence from school for different holidays? 
I'm not sure be there are public schools that still "celebrate" Christmas or Easter or any truly religious holiday by the decorating or hymns or religious trappings of Christmas? There were when I was in elementary school. I can remember drawing one of the Three Wise men for the hall bulletin board. 
But I bet anything, that unlike Christmas, there will be a tendency to "educate" lots of non-muslims on the "history and practices" of Muslims, all flattering of course. That is politically correct while Christmas is not.
But we are not speaking of personal choice religion. We are talking public holidays, which everything one loves to take off of work without the slightest intent of religious celebration. That is what holiday means for the majority of people of Christian back ground now so it is a fallacy to say that Christmas is still a religious holiday at all.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

And yet I'm willing to bet that any attempt to move the winter break earlier or later than the dates surrounding the so claimed non religous holiday celebrated on Dec 25 would be met with loud outcries and further claims of the ongoing war against Christianity.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

When I was in high school in the late 1960s about 1/3 of the students were absent on the jewish holidays. They also got the Christmas and Easter breaks off too. No big deal.

I do think kids need breaks. They have a shorter attention span than adults. The adults enjoy the holidays and the kids need more of them than the adults.

Giving all the kids the Muslim holidays off is stupid because if you follow that logic out, then the schools will have to close for all religious holidays. Buddhists, Druids, Hindus, Wickkens, and Voodoo worshipers can all demand their holidays off. Schools would not be open enough to educate the kids.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> And yet I'm willing to bet that any attempt to move the winter break earlier or later than the dates surrounding the so claimed non religous holiday celebrated on Dec 25 would be met with loud outcries and further claims of the ongoing war against Christianity.


And it would be so true unless a strict policy of equal applicability to all religions were followed. Which would also meet the loud outcries from Muslims that lead to Muslim holidays being added in the first place.

It is a never ending amazement that the same people who object so consistently to Christian protests are so uncritical about Muslim protests. In truth, taking some away from centuries of past practice has a greater appearance of bigotry than not adding a new practice in order to limit religious influence in schools.

It comes from a lack of ideals about increased religious involvement of any kind in schools, which would raise cries when any religion tries to gain a foot hold. What that kind of snarky remark about Christians really represents is impulse towards dragging down the uppity people who irritate rather any ideal at all.

Of course the Christians would object, if they take their religion seriously and are lead to see the move as a threat. So practice a bit more tolerance and see that such remarks actually cause more problems than they ever solve. If solving problems is any part of the agenda at all in the first place.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

where I want to said:


> But I bet anything, that unlike Christmas, there will be a tendency to "educate" lots of non-muslims on the "history and practices" of Muslims, all flattering of course. That is politically correct while Christmas is not.


If they do teach about the muslim days, then to be honest about freedom they MUST give equal time to the "Christian Holy" days. If they do not close for Christian holy days (I disagree with that term since Christ set up no high days.) they can not close on muslim days.

They can't have it both ways. Either it is spring break or easter break, winter break or Christmas. If it is winter, then no they can't close for muslim days if it is christmas then yes they have to give muslims the same option.

As to the approved absences... do muslims get to attend school when it closes on Christian holy days? If not then Christian students can't attend on muslim days off either. 

It can not be had both ways, both must have the same exact abilities to attend or miss school.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

where I want to said:


> So practice a bit more tolerance and see that such remarks actually cause more problems than they ever solve. If solving problems is any part of the agenda at all in the first place.



Now where was this at when the OP first started this thread? Perhaps we should apply this logic from post #1 all the way down?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

where I want to said:


> And it would be so true unless a strict policy of equal applicability to all religions were followed. Which would also meet the loud outcries from Muslims that lead to Muslim holidays being added in the first place.
> 
> It is a never ending amazement that the same people who object so consistently to Christian protests are so uncritical about Muslim protests. In truth, taking some away from centuries of past practice has a greater appearance of bigotry than not adding a new practice in order to limit religious influence in schools.
> 
> ...


So equal applicability applies as long as we talk of Christian and Jewish religious calendars, but no others? You stated that it was a fallacy that Christmas is a religious holiday so it is hard to logically argue that changing the school calendar could be an attack on religion. Some 10% of the students in NYC are Muslim. Logistically it makes sense to not hold school on a day when one out of every ten students, likely more in some classes, won't be there. Lesson plans must be adjusted and tests possibly rescheduled. Easier to add another day of instruction. 

Christianity has long had more than a foothold in our schools. Else there wouldn't be such outcry when others object and request its removal. I'm not advocating teaching about the muslim holidays in school, just as I don't believe we should be teaching about Christmas or Rosh Hashanah. Recognizing a holiday and advocating its celebration are two different things.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

People gripe that the schools aren't open year round so the kids can get educated. Whatever happened to parents? Amazing how many so-called conservatives want the government responsible for their kid's education.

Doesn't matter how many muslims there are. As George Bush said, no child left behind. The system lowers standards for everyone to accommodate a few individuals. My wife teaches 5th grade and has to clear her room regularly because a kid is unruly. She can't touch the kid, and administration won't do anything about him.

I could tell many other stories, which is why my wife is quitting after this year after just 2 years. It is crazy. Works over 80 hours a week, with little of that spent teaching.

Public schools are just one more messed up government program. There will always be more problems. Close them down, let people keep their money and be responsible for their kids, and let charity take care of the few hard-luck cases, instead of ruining it for all.

Then we don't have to complain about who gets what holiday. If you don't like the school, go somewhere else, or teach them yourself. But turns out most of us prefer socialism.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Here's the official school calendar of the NYC public school system. http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres...A0-0856943B16D2/0/20142015CentralCalendar.pdf You'll note that Christmas is identified as a holiday as is Good Friday. Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah and the first two days of Passover, when they don't fall on a weekend, are also recognized.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Here's the one for the Los Angeles Unified School District. Notice there are no religious holidays. Only "winter recess", which is almost a month long. everything has to be equal!! Don't want to hurt anyone's feelings now!




Also, the University of California, Irvine ASUCI Legislative Council passed a resolution banning the American flag, along with all others, from the campus. 
At least the five-member executive cabinet overseeing UC Irvine's student government on Saturday vetoed the decision! 

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...can-flag-others-misguided-20150307-story.html

Seems that being a religious American is becoming a bad, hated thing.(unless your a muslim)


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## Kmac15 (May 19, 2007)

I do know that even here in the deep south local custom can trump religion. We have the Masters the second week of April so that is when our spring break is. It doesn't matter when Easter is, we will only be getting Good Friday off, unless we are lucky enough to have Easter fall in the first couple weeks in April. I was told this was to help the kids that work at the masters and the people who leave the city to let their homes be rented out for big money.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

joseph97297 said:


> Now where was this at when the OP first started this thread? Perhaps we should apply this logic from post #1 all the way down?


Again the point being missed is who is complaining about what. If you were a Muslim advocating for your religion, it would be understandable. If you were an atheist advocating for no religion having consideration, it would be understandable. As it is for a Christian advocating for their religion. 

It is the person who criticizes only Christians, never Muslims, for that advocacy that is ugly. It reeks of Christianophobia. And a person who holds themselves so self righteously in that position needs to look to themselves before they start lecturing others on charity, equality, etc.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> So equal applicability applies as long as we talk of Christian and Jewish religious calendars, but no others? You stated that it was a fallacy that Christmas is a religious holiday so it is hard to logically argue that changing the school calendar could be an attack on religion. Some 10% of the students in NYC are Muslim. Logistically it makes sense to not hold school on a day when one out of every ten students, likely more in some classes, won't be there. Lesson plans must be adjusted and tests possibly rescheduled. Easier to add another day of instruction.
> 
> Christianity has long had more than a foothold in our schools. Else there wouldn't be such outcry when others object and request its removal. I'm not advocating teaching about the muslim holidays in school, just as I don't believe we should be teaching about Christmas or Rosh Hashanah. Recognizing a holiday and advocating its celebration are two different things.



In frankness, I am a member of a western culture that finds many good things about it. That includes a certain level of tolerance on a social level to different religions and different people.
On the other hand that cultural level of tolerance is frquently strained by the demands of people who think it is my responsibility to adapt my culture to every other single person who walks in the door. Not just leave them alone to live as they choose but to change my life to accommodate their ways. In other words, my culture is discounted automatically if there is any conflict. It is called bigotry for me not to adapt and bigotry for me to demand that others adapt. 
There is a limit to that flexibility before it is torn into a million different parts. And the current immigrant's version of Islam's inherent desire to religious and personal vengeance, suppression of free mixing of women in all aspects of life and rules of blasphemy that is evident by every story where religion is a part of the story is the point at which I draw the line on adaption. It's even more frightening to see the effect of Islamic conversions of native Americans in creativing violence. 
It offends my sense of tolerance to see a 15 year old sent off to the old country to marry someone she doesn't know because its part of the parent's old culture. Just as it would offend me to see an obscure branch of some Christian sect do the same thing. 
Yet some people here will rant about the Christians doing it while simultaneously ranting against those finding objection to Muslims doing the same thing. The one case is used as a weapon to beat on all Christians for what an infinitesimal section of Christians do while the second case is used as a weapon to beat on all Christians for being intolerant of what other religions do. And that is a perversion of any moral code.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

where I want to said:


> *In frankness, I am a member of a western culture that finds many good things about it. That includes a certain level of tolerance on a social level to different religions and different people.
> On the other hand that cultural level of tolerance is frquently strained by the demands of people who think it is my responsibility to adapt my culture to every other single person who walks in the door. Not just leave them alone to live as they choose but to change my life to accommodate their ways. In other words, my culture is discounted automatically if there is any conflict. It is called bigotry for me not to adapt and bigotry for me to demand that others adapt. *
> There is a limit to that flexibility before it is torn into a million different parts. And the current immigrant's version of Islam's inherent desire to religious and personal vengeance, suppression of free mixing of women in all aspects of life and rules of blasphemy that is evident by every story where religion is a part of the story is the point at which I draw the line on adaption. It's even more frightening to see the effect of Islamic conversions of native Americans in creativing violence.
> It offends my sense of tolerance to see a 15 year old sent off to the old country to marry someone she doesn't know because its part of the parent's old culture. Just as it would offend me to see an obscure branch of some Christian sect do the same thing.
> Yet some people here will rant about the Christians doing it while simultaneously ranting against those finding objection to Muslims doing the same thing. The one case is used as a weapon to beat on all Christians for what an infinitesimal section of Christians do while the second case is used as a weapon to beat on all Christians for being intolerant of what other religions do. And that is a perversion of any moral code.


Well said and worth repeating!


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

where I want to said:


> Again the point being missed is who is complaining about what. If you were a Muslim advocating for your religion, it would be understandable. If you were an atheist advocating for no religion having consideration, it would be understandable. As it is for a Christian advocating for their religion.
> 
> It is the person who criticizes only Christians, never Muslims, for that advocacy that is ugly. It reeks of Christianophobia. And a person who holds themselves so self righteously in that position needs to look to themselves before they start lecturing others on charity, equality, etc.



So the flip side is if the person critizes only Muslims, never Christians, it would reek as well? Once again, from your statement that I quoted before in regards to why it wasn't posed to the OP, what differs?

I didn't miss your point, just wondering why you did not point it out to the OP? Is it not applicable in that instance?


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

You have still missed it. Go back and read the original post- what it says versus what you chose to read into it . Then note that what you imply is far indeed from what it said in your determination to accuse.

I on the other hand will go further. There has been a determined push to de-religionize public life. Which means to the complainers to de-Christianize it, despite that Christian values created an education that eventually included everyone, founded the Constitution, has a history here of actually having found the school system in place. It has a history that is no longer just religious but is generally the culture of the country. So that in your fervor correct Christians at every point, you refuse to note that eliminating everything with a Christian history means eliminating the culture. Nasty bigotry that. 

I think that this culture changes with every new group but never with such one sided pandering as expressed by anti-Christian antagonists as seem now so pleased with their own blindness. Prefering not just to make room but to eliminate others to make room only teaches that centuries of history and evolution means nothing. That everyone who walks in the door is taught contempt for the resident culture. 
But worse than the contempt taught to and embraced by some immigrants is the people who do not respect their own culture and spread that like a disease to them.

Look up oikophobia. Then look at your leap into the assumptions about what the OP actually wrote.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

where I want to said:


> You have still missed it. Go back and read the original post- what it says versus what you chose to read into it . Then note that what you imply is far indeed from what it said in your determination to accuse.
> 
> I on the other hand will go further. There has been a determined push to de-religionize public life. Which means to the complainers to de-Christianize it, despite that Christian values created an education that eventually included everyone, founded the Constitution, has a history here of actually having found the school system in place. It has a history that is no longer just religious but is generally the culture of the country. So that in your fervor correct Christians at every point, you refuse to note that eliminating everything with a Christian history means eliminating the culture. Nasty bigotry that.
> 
> ...


Maybe you can explain exactly how adding two Muslim holidays to the school calendar subtracts anything from western culture. How it takes anything from our western culture. I didn't see any removal of the two christian holy days, the four Jewish holy days or the numerous secular holidays from the calendar. I see an addition, just as throughout our history western culture has added, assimilated and co-opted many aspects of different cultures including those cultures that were here and dominant when "westerners" arrived on these shores. We could also note that western culture as expressed in a place like NYC is different than that expressed in a place like Selma, AL. I tend to like NYC's inclusivity of other cultures to make a more vibrant western culture.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

where I want to said:


> You have still missed it. Go back and read the original post- what it says versus what you chose to read into it . Then note that what you imply is far indeed from what it said in your determination to accuse.
> 
> I on the other hand will go further. There has been a determined push to de-religionize public life. Which means to the complainers to de-Christianize it, despite that Christian values created an education that eventually included everyone, founded the Constitution, has a history here of actually having found the school system in place. It has a history that is no longer just religious but is generally the culture of the country. *So that in your fervor correct Christians at every point, you refuse to note that eliminating everything with a Christian history means eliminating the culture.* Nasty bigotry that.



Where did I say that we should eliminate everything with that was Christian-based?


I made no note of eliminating anything Christian-based, just that adding other religious holidays does not equate bowing down. If it does indeed mean that by the addition of two days (one of which is not even during school days) that they are bowing down, then would that not apply to all religious days that are included?

Do you not agree that if one finds issue with the addition of two religious holidays associated with Islam yet makes no mention of other religious dates that there is some bias there? I could care less if they let the kids out for any religious day. Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc. 

It does not matter to me one bit that they get excused for their own religious observations. What irks me some is the contempt that is shown when Muslims get a day or two off and yet that same contempt is not shown at all for Jewish days or Christian days. 

You'll get no where trying to say that I am in favor of eliminating Christian based themes or any religion based issues. I am just pointing out that if one is upset over one religion getting a day or two, then should that anger or worry include all religions? If not, then that does say more about that person doesn't it?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

You can argue to your hearts content, EVERYONE knows that The United States of America's roots and culture are based on Christianity. 

The debate is whether our future is.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

While I recognize the fear and trepidation some have for Islam, Muslims and all things relating to them I don't pretend to understand them. In perusing various news sites this morning I couldn't find one mention of a Christian being beheaded by a Muslim in this country. I did find an interesting story about a bunch of nice Midwestern, presumably Christian, young men singing about how they'd never have an n- word in their organization. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ok...r-racist-chant-caught-on-tape-2015-03-09Makes me proud of western civilization.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mmoetc said:


> While I recognize the fear and trepidation some have for Islam, Muslims and all things relating to them I don't pretend to understand them. In perusing various news sites this morning I couldn't find one mention of a Christian being beheaded by a Muslim in this country. I did find an interesting story about a bunch of nice Midwestern, presumably Christian, young men singing about how they'd never have an n- word in their organization. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ok...r-racist-chant-caught-on-tape-2015-03-09Makes me proud of western civilization.


You funny. Ha. Ha. 

First your link does not work. 

Second your attempt to defame Jesus Christ does not work either. 

There is nothing nice nor Christain about the attitude you attempted to portray in the story. 

Try harder please.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

HDRider said:


> You funny. Ha. Ha.
> 
> First your link does not work.
> 
> ...


Try this one. http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/09/us/oklahoma-fraternity-chant/index.html. Wasn't trying to defame Jesus. I'm sure he wouldn't have approved but it hasn't stopped racists through the ages many of whom considered themselves and were considered by other to be good Christians from using their religion to justify their actions. Many Muslims hold the same attitude that there is nothing nice or particularly Islamic in what radicals and extremists are doing. Some even fight against it and have lived peacefully alongside their Christian neighbors for a long time.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mmoetc said:


> Try this one. http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/09/us/oklahoma-fraternity-chant/index.html. Wasn't trying to defame Jesus. I'm sure he wouldn't have approved but it hasn't stopped racists through the ages many of whom considered themselves and were considered by other to be good Christians from using their religion to justify their actions. Many Muslims hold the same attitude that there is nothing nice or particularly Islamic in what radicals and extremists are doing. Some even fight against it and have lived peacefully alongside their Christian neighbors for a long time.


Do you consider them good Christians?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Trying to defame Christians or others, does not make the religion under discussion any better. It's just a cop out so the real topic of the thread will not be discussed.

It's a red herring used here often and really should not be done.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Angie,
Without diversions and red herrings most people could not offer a debate or what they call a debate. 

Thank you.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

HDRider said:


> You can argue to your hearts content, EVERYONE knows that The United States of America's roots and culture are based on Christianity.
> 
> The debate is whether our future is.



Our country's origin is based on freedom from a Christian king.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Oggie said:


> Our country's origin is based on freedom from a Christian king.


Based on freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

HDRider said:


> Based on freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.


Based on freedom.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> Maybe you can explain exactly how adding two Muslim holidays to the school calendar subtracts anything from western culture. How it takes anything from our western culture. I didn't see any removal of the two christian holy days, the four Jewish holy days or the numerous secular holidays from the calendar. I see an addition, just as throughout our history western culture has added, assimilated and co-opted many aspects of different cultures including those cultures that were here and dominant when "westerners" arrived on these shores. We could also note that western culture as expressed in a place like NYC is different than that expressed in a place like Selma, AL. I tend to like NYC's inclusivity of other cultures to make a more vibrant western culture.


You persist in rewriting everything in your own terms of American culture bad and everyone else good. If someone brings up the horrendous brutality being done under the auspices of Islam, you speed to reach into your tar bucket of every conceivable wrong ever done in the US to counter it. As if dragging down others proves the innocence of their opponents. You slap your tar brush over every Christian for any wrong done in their name in history and use that to excuse every wrong done in the name of Islam. A bad case of the childhood whine of "he hit me first."

The insane illogic of always defending one religion by accusing another without fail of similar acts is incedibly biased. 
If you persist in defending inaction at best from Muslims, then why do you not use the same standards for Christians? That they are also not to blame for any wrong done by the people using their name?

And I have yet to see any Christians using terrorist activities, both here and abroad,currently. That is reason enough to be very wary of Muslim teachings, that seem to speak so eloquently to the violent. I see it being reported that virtually all Muslim protests are about their own complaints rather than protesting and diminishing the violence done by their co-religionist. And I don't mean just terrorist violence but the common everyday cruelty that would have you ranting if found in Christian communities.

Yes, we have coexisted with Muslims for quite awhile but the combination of self hatred spoken by some Americans, combined with little control of who immigrates, has created a self justification for hostilities by recent Muslim immigrants, who view so many normal behaviors of Americans as a personal attack on themselves. That attitude is aided by those so ever willing to bash America and assume the grievances of others are always correct.

And I have explained the harm is such behavior. Holidays for schools are so pointed de-religionized by this same desire to find blame that Christmas vacation is an anachronism- in truth it is much more teacher time off and a glorification of retail than a religious holiday. Yet you favor bringing back the religious basis for time off but only for Muslims. Christians need not apply. Out with the old-in with the new. Out with Bhuddists, Hindus, Sikhs, Animists, Orthodox Christians,Janes, Jews, etc but in with the squeakist of wheels, Islam.

The current Christian named holidays are a historical residue, just ingrained into the culture, but the insertion of a new religious holiday changes it all back to religious basis.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Oggie said:


> Based on freedom.


How does just freedom square with adding religious holidays but only for some?


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

where I want to said:


> How does just freedom square with adding religious holidays but only for some?


Local control of schools.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Oggie said:


> Local control of schools.


Like Common Core, No Child Left Behind and the US Dept of Education control of federally funded local education?


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

HDRider said:


> Like Common Core, No Child Left Behind and the US Dept of Education control of federally funded local education?



Which holidays does common core require?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Oggie said:


> Which holidays does common core require?


Common core controls holidays? Wow! I had no idea.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Oggie said:


> Local control of schools.


.

In the late 1880-90 my grandfathers school was taught in Polish. His family moved to southwest Mo. from Kentucky, Yea he had a bit of an issue assimilating.

But yes I agree we should go back to local control of our schools, we have gone so far past that our students aren't prepared to live and work in the real world.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

coolrunnin said:


> .
> 
> In the late 1880-90 my grandfathers school was taught in Polish. His family moved to southwest Mo. from Kentucky, Yea he had a bit of an issue assimilating.
> 
> But yes I agree we should go back to local control of our schools, we have gone so far past that our students aren't prepared to live and work in the real world.


Darn good idea.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

HDRider said:


> Do you consider them good Christians?


IMO there is no such thing as "good Christians". There is no such thing as bad Christians. There are only Christians or non-Christians.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Possum Belly said:


> IMO there is no such thing as "good Christians". There is no such thing as bad Christians. There are only Christians or non-Christians.


Are you saying if you do something bad you are no longer a Christian?

Or

Are you saying Christians do not do bad things?

Either way, I can't agree. Not sure what you mean.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

HDRider said:


> Are you saying if you do something bad you are no longer a Christian?
> 
> Or
> 
> ...


Sure Christians do bad things and if they do they are still Christians but just have to ask for forgiveness. I am just saying there is no such thing as a good Christian or bad Christian. First of all, Jesus says there are none good. To be a Christian you must be a follower of Christ. I am sure some do a better job than others but I would not call some bad or others good. Just Christians.
Matthew 19:17


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

HDRider said:


> Do you consider them good Christians?


Whether you're asking about the students or those who justified racism or other bad acts with their religous beliefs my answer is the same. It's not for me to judge the quality of their religous belief. If they claim Christianity, Islam or any other belief the "goodness" of their belief is between them and their god. I have no problem judging them as human beings and how their actions affect others. And in the case of the fraternity I think they're lacking a bit in their humanity. Just as the Muslims perpetrating atrocities in the name of their religion are lacking greatly and failing in their humanity.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mmoetc said:


> Whether you're asking about the students or those who justified racism or other bad acts with their religous beliefs my answer is the same. It's not for me to judge the quality of their religous belief. If they claim Christianity, Islam or any other belief the "goodness" of their belief is between them and their god. I have no problem judging them as human beings and how their actions affect others. And in the case of the fraternity I think they're lacking a bit in their humanity. Just as the Muslims perpetrating atrocities in the name of their religion are lacking greatly and failing in their humanity.


So you do separate the evil deeds from their religious claims?

You don't taint the religion with the failings of its proclaimed followers.

I think many do associate the behaviour of the followers with the perception of a religion. 

Buddhist shave heads and beg, Hindus don't eat cows, Muslims cut off heads, Christians steal money via TV and so on.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

where I want to said:


> You persist in rewriting everything in your own terms of American culture bad and everyone else good. If someone brings up the horrendous brutality being done under the auspices of Islam, you speed to reach into your tar bucket of every conceivable wrong ever done in the US to counter it. As if dragging down others proves the innocence of their opponents. You slap your tar brush over every Christian for any wrong done in their name in history and use that to excuse every wrong done in the name of Islam. A bad case of the childhood whine of "he hit me first."
> 
> The insane illogic of always defending one religion by accusing another without fail of similar acts is incedibly biased.
> If you persist in defending inaction at best from Muslims, then why do you not use the same standards for Christians? That they are also not to blame for any wrong done by the people using their name?
> ...


And you continue to mischaracterize me and argue against that mischaracterization rather than my words. Pointing out the flaws and failings of my country doesn't mean I hate it. It means I recognize it is not perfect and only through recognizing and acknowledging those flaws and failings can we hope to correct them and not repeat them. Only through recognizing how those flaws and failures influence the attitudes, responses and actions of others can we hope to resolve anything. We are not to blame for every ill in the world, nor are we blameless. 

Christianity has done much good in the world in claiming its dominance over western culture. But I'm guessing a lot of those cultures eliminated and subjugated in pursuit of that dominance might disagree on ultimate goodness of the outcome. Sometimes knowing where you've been and how you got there can be the greatest tools.

When I referred to Muslims living peacefully next to Christians I wasn't referring to this country. It is Muslim Kurds alongside their Christian neighbors who have gone to battle with Muslim extremists. It is largely those Muslims who you worry aren't doing enough who are fighting and dying everyday. Their reasons may not be what you like but it is Muslims making the ultimate sacrifice.

If the Muslim holidays were going to be celebrated in the schools just as Christmas was for many more years than it hasn't I would share some of your concerns. But since you're not advocating removing even the anachronistic recognition of Christian holidays or the more modern recognition of Jewish ones, but only the fear of the influence of recognizing Muslim ones I have trouble taking your concerns seriously.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> If the Muslim holidays were going to be celebrated in the schools just as Christmas was for many more years than it hasn't I would share some of your concerns. But since you're not advocating removing even the anachronistic recognition of Christian holidays or the more modern recognition of Jewish ones, but only the fear of the influence of recognizing Muslim ones I have trouble taking your concerns seriously.


How do you tell a racist who says he is not one? By the fact he always finds fault with an action if done by a despised race while never finds fault with the same actions with a favored race.
This applies to religious bigotry and cultural bigotry equally. 
And thus, if all criticism is against Christians, and never against Muslims, for the same actions, then that is pretty convincing evidence that, despite the protests to the contrary, the person is a bigot. 
It is obvious that our history favored the Christian holidays because it was the vastly common culture at the time. Since then it has undergone endless legal and social challenges in its religious practice in public life. The remnant is no longer religious in nature but a cultural artifact like Valentines Day. Once a religious festival but now a commercial and popular day marking love celebrated by all without regard to its religious origin. Sort of a Cinco de Mayo thing that does not mean the celebrating are Mexican.
To demand that no one can object to two additional religious holidays added to the school year, which have lots of stresses on it already, because cultural practices long devoid of religious significance still exist is a display of bigotry. I expect that if the school system chose to add two new Christian holidays to their calendar, there would be a litany of wails from atheists, Muslims and other religions. And I think you would find that justified as intrusion of religion into a public institution. That you wouldn't object but actually support the religious basis of these two holidays, not historically celebrated ever here, is not a rational decision but simply a knee jerk opposition to what you insist is "christian bigotry". You can only maintain the fiction of nonpartisonship by discounting cultural heritage. Which Americans as they stand today have too. And is the basis, along with teacher's unions, for the remaining holidays that were once religious in nature. 
But lack of religious meaning is definitely not the basis for these two new holidays. No wonder Christians are worried, with biased support being avocated by the same forces of PC against public display of their religious practices while simultaneously supporting the new inclusion of the religious practices of a group so violently hostile and intolerant to them around the world.
They fear oikophobics.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

WIWT
I appreciate the effort you put in your very lucid posts. Good work indeed.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

where I want to said:


> It is obvious that our history favored the Christian holidays because it was the vastly common culture at the time.


 And now there are a lot of Muslims in New York as well, so their school board instituted a couple of holidays for them. Its as simple as that. Not 'bowing to Islam', not 'anti-Christian', just a recognition of the fact that there are a sizable number of Muslims in the New York school district. You may not like it, but thats the reality of the situation.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

where I want to said:


> How do you tell a racist who says he is not one? By the fact he always finds fault with an action if done by a despised race while never finds fault with the same actions with a favored race.
> This applies to religious bigotry and cultural bigotry equally.
> And thus, if all criticism is against Christians, and never against Muslims, for the same actions, then that is pretty convincing evidence that, despite the protests to the contrary, the person is a bigot.
> It is obvious that our history favored the Christian holidays because it was the vastly common culture at the time. Since then it has undergone endless legal and social challenges in its religious practice in public life. The remnant is no longer religious in nature but a cultural artifact like Valentines Day. Once a religious festival but now a commercial and popular day marking love celebrated by all without regard to its religious origin. Sort of a Cinco de Mayo thing that does not mean the celebrating are Mexican.
> ...


I read the first few lines of this post and thought you'd finally had a revelation and some self awareness of your constant criticism and knee jerk reaction against all things Muslim. Then I realized it was just another ill conceived, poorly thought out and unsupported attack on me. I've stated repeatedly in this thread and others that Christianity and Christians have done many good things. Apparently that is not good enough for you. I can speak of the good works done in religiously affiliated hospitals such as the Lutheran one my granddaughter recieved care at last year. The care was first rate and the prayers offered by staff and volunteers were appreciated. 50 years ago, on a bridge in Selma, Christians knelt in prayer as they were gassed and beaten for having the temerity to want to vote. Their peaceful action and courage was largely shaped by their faith. I could go on but I hope this will lay to rest, once and for all, your false premise that I attack Christianity at every opportunity. 

I do sometimes support Muslims. Discussions tend to be short and boring when only one side is given. I support people like the Kurds who are fighting and dying alongside their Christian neighbors in fighting extremists like ISIS. I support the Muslims who stood surrounding a synagogue in Denmark to protest the violence there. I hope they continue their work against extremism in both public and private ways. I don't approve of, condone or support in any way groups like Al Qaeda, Boco Haram, or ISIS or any of the vile atrocities and attacks they've committed. I do understand that just as all Christians aren't the same, neither are all Muslims.

Now I will demand something. I will demand that you find one quote in any of my posts that demands you must believe as I do. I demand you show one statement I've made that calls for any limits to your speech or expression. I demand an apology when you can't. 

You make many presumptions about what I would or wouldn't support. If there were two or more holidays celebrated by any religion that might remove 10% or more of the student population on any given day and as such disrupt curriculum and learning I would support any local school board from recognizing them and scheduling days off for them. Sometimes it just makes sense to operate at the fullest capacity. Cultural influence do change and there will likely be a day in the future when discussions such as this are seen as quaintly anachronistic.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Redondo Beach bows to Judaism. 2010. The outrage.

http://www.easyreadernews.com/1166/jewish-holidays-added-to-school-calendar/


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I'll weigh in, as an agnostic and pragmatist:

I believe that a public school system should be careful not to endorse any particular religion. But does_ closing school for a religious holiday_ constitute an endorsement? I don't think it does. 

"Endorsing," to my way of thinking, falls more along the lines of proselytizing, teacher-led school prayer, religious Christmas carols, etc. But simply _closing the school_ so that students can take part in private religious practices (whether it's Christmas, Hanukkah or Eid) with their families doesn't constitute an endorsement, IMO.

From a practical standpoint, having a large number of students absent on a particular day is disruptive. Teachers probably avoid teaching anything substantive on those days, in which case it probably makes more sense to give kids the day off. If only a handful of students celebrates a particular religious or cultural holiday, they should be able to take the take the day off without penalty, and make up the work on their own time. 

Make sense? :huh:


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> Now I will demand something. I will demand that you find one quote in any of my posts that demands you must believe as I do. I demand you show one statement I've made that calls for any limits to your speech or expression. I demand an apology when you can't.
> 
> .


I'll take the challenge but expect you will not accept that reasoning either. Please take the same amount of time to find supporting quotes to your allegations that i have accused you of demanding limits on freedom of expression. 
But I have work to go do and will take time. I'll get back to you.
BTW it is refreshing to hear something you say something that isn't a criticism of Christianity. 
And I do object to the inclusion of religious holidays that are Jewish too, despite the reliance on demographics lacking in the inclusion of Muslim holidays in NYC, without a broad, universally devised accommodation for all religions.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

For some, hunting deer might be akin to religion.



> HARRISBURG - The state legislature is dark.
> 
> 
> Schoolchildren from the Lehigh Valley to the Ohio border have the day off.
> ...



From: http://articles.philly.com/2013-12-04/news/44712707_1_deer-game-commission-hunters


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

where I want to said:


> I'll take the challenge but expect you will not accept that reasoning either. Please take the same amount of time to find supporting quotes to your allegations that i have accused you of demanding limits on freedom of expression.
> But I have work to go do and will take time. I'll get back to you.
> BTW it is refreshing to hear something you say something that isn't a criticism of Christianity.
> And I do object to the inclusion of religious holidays that are Jewish too, despite the reliance on demographics lacking in the inclusion of Muslim holidays in NYC, without a broad, universally devised accommodation for all religions.


Since you were responding to my post I can only presume that this quote from your post #81 was directed at me. "To demand that no one can object to two additional..... the person is a bigot."


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

"What goes around, comes around." Followed by-

I could offer proof of Christianity being spread at the point of a sword and hundreds if years of Christian intolerance and suppression of others beliefs but I would undoubtedly be told that all this happened in the past and we are only concerned about the here and now. My first post was just more succinct.

Another post-
"Maybe if you all could come together and decide what a true Christian is and come to peace within your own faith I might have more sympathy. Then again, I already have sympathy for any killed or suppressed by another for religous or political reasons. Mankind has been around much longer than Christianity has and no one has shown me proof that Christian beliefs have any more validity than the multi-theistic beliefs if the Greeks and Romans that preceded them or any of the thousands of other belief systems that existed before or do still exist. The casual dismissal of the violent history of Christianity presumes that it was justified because the end result was positive for Christianity. The worry about today's persecution of Christians presumes that their beliefs are somehow superior to others and deserve to be the end point of religous discussion and evolution. The truth is that mankind's beliefs have and will continue to evolve and as in the past there will be winners and losers."


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

"And we know the earth is really only 6000 years old because Christian evangelists tell us so.-http://freechristianteaching7.blogsp...count.html?m=1

And we might even teach it in school.-http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/2568828 "


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

"I'd agree that both of your cases are terrorism. The fit the standard definition, "the use of violence or the threat of violence, especially against civilians, to further political goals". It seems a bit broad to me in that this definition would include almost all acts of war. Is the Palestinian who walks up to an Israeli patrol wearing a suicide vest a terrorist or a freedom fighter? Is the afghani taliban who plants an IED targeted at a military convoy a terrorist or just trying to repel a foreign invader. I don't pretend that we live in a black and white world. What would you do, what tactics would you possibly use, to protect you and yours. Who might label you a terrorist for doing it?"


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

"So, in order to "protect ourselves" we must align ourselves with and support Muslims. Until they no longer become useful to us and then we can align with the next group. Is the hope that we will eventually create so small a group they can be totally eradicated? And there's been very little freedom of religion in the history of Christianity, including now."


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

"And once again rather than address the point an ad homonym attack is launched. I've criticized Muslim extremists, their violence and tactics, on more than one occasion. I just don't criticize them all just because they're Muslim. Just as I don't criticize all Christians."


I posted this one because although you have mentioned such equal criticism, I couldn't find it. The best I could find is statements, in response to another post saying you treat acts by Muslims differently than Christians, saying you criticize Muslim extremists, specifically seperating them from moderate Muslims, while I could not find such seperating "extremist" Christians from moderate "Christians." In fact that was the basic response to lump Christians together as a counter to Muslim "extremists".

There may be something more pertinent further back than I went as I only looked at three or four threads.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

What I said was "To demand that no one can object to two additional religious holidays added to the school year, which have lots of stresses on it already, because cultural practices long devoid of religious significance still exist is a display of bigotry"

Not-


mmoetc said:


> Since you were responding to my post I can only presume that this quote from your post #81 was directed at me. "To demand that no one can object to two additional..... the person is a bigot."


So, you do believe that a person can have reasons to object to adding new religious holidays and not be anti-Muslim? If so, then then you haven't given a display of bigotry in my opinion and I do not see where that word applies to you.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> I'll weigh in, as an agnostic and pragmatist:
> 
> I believe that a public school system should be careful not to endorse any particular religion. But does_ closing school for a religious holiday_ constitute an endorsement? I don't think it does.
> 
> ...


I thought about this a lot. But there are snags to it. If you read the whole linked article, you will find some of the problems. 
One is that the group who got the holidays think of it as a" victory" and a sign of their achieving political clout. Then, there was mention of a lunar holiday to recognize asian cultures. There were mentions of Jewish lobbies getting successful recognition of their holidays.
What was conspiciously absent from all these paragraphs in the article? Education itself. It was like the proverbial bad divorce where the children are used as footballs. And it has no end. There will always be demands for additional recognition.
It does not just involve the success of these groups but also the problems it creates for everyone else. The whole school closes and that day of education at the least gets pushed somewhere else. If 10 percent get to change the school calendar, what limits will there be?
But then I am much more in favor of additional school days and that has no chance of happening.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

where I want to said:


> What I said was "To demand that no one can object to two additional religious holidays added to the school year, which have lots of stresses on it already, because cultural practices long devoid of religious significance still exist is a display of bigotry"
> 
> Not-
> 
> ...


You did some impressive research but you missed the point so you failed the assignment. I have never denied criticizing Christianity nor saying positive things about Muslims. I did demand you to show a statement I made that demanded you accept my position as your own and not express, or be allowed to express your own. None of what you posted came close. One even asked you express an opinion on how to define terrorism. So my demand for an apology stands.

As to your point that someone can object on other than religous turns. One certainly can. But when they start the thread with an attack on said religion and don't respond to or even seem to acknowledge the fiscal and educational reasons for closing when some 10% of the student body won't be present it is difficult for me to believe their motivations are anything but anti the religion in question. But I'll take you at your word. It's all about the children.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> You did some impressive research but you missed the point so you failed the assignment. I have never denied criticizing Christianity nor saying positive things about Muslims. I did demand you to show a statement I made that demanded you accept my position as your own and not express, or be allowed to express your own. None of what you posted came close. One even asked you express an opinion on how to define terrorism. So my demand for an apology stands.
> 
> As to your point that someone can object on other than religous turns. One certainly can. But when they start the thread with an attack on said religion and don't respond to or even seem to acknowledge the fiscal and educational reasons for closing when some 10% of the student body won't be present it is difficult for me to believe their motivations are anything but anti the religion in question. But I'll take you at your word. It's all about the children.


The bottom line for you seems to be that you assume that my simple participation in this thread means, despite the facetious remark at the end, that it can only religious bigotry while your steadfast criticism, specific and pointed of Christianity means something other than bigotry. For you it's personal. And I think not fair.

Demand away. You have been oblivious to my points by choice. The inclusion of new religious based holidays only resurrects the old religious tug of war that had been so firmly removed by liberals, at least as far as Christianity, under the guise of Constitutionality. Religion was surgically removed as far as common custom would allow with prospects for further push. But it's back now.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

where I want to said:


> The bottom line for you seems to be that you assume that my simple participation in this thread means, despite the facetious remark at the end, that it can only religious bigotry while your steadfast criticism, specific and pointed of Christianity means something other than bigotry. For you it's personal. And I think not fair.
> 
> Demand away. You have been oblivious to my points by choice. The inclusion of new religious based holidays only resurrects the old religious tug of war that had been so firmly removed by liberals, at least as far as Christianity, under the guise of Constitutionality. Religion was surgically removed as far as common custom would allow with prospects for further push. But it's back now.


It matters not to me that you called me a bigot. It's your opinion and you're entitled to it. It does matter to me that you accused me of demanding that you not express your opinion. This is what I seek an apology for or proof of. Making up false attacks in order to claim victim status is what is unfair. I do take such false claims personally.

All of your claims about religion having been removed come from the viewpoint of the group that still has a large religous based stake and presence in public education and is fighting for more. Rather than arguing that all religion be removed you argue that the status quo is fine. It's easy to do when that status quo encompasses your beliefs and holidays. You haven't responded to or refuted the economic and educational obstacles that occur when a significant portion of a school district will be absent to celebrate their religous holiday. Factors mentioned in the article on Redondo Beach which you dismissed with your claim that education wasn't mentioned.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> It matters not to me that you called me a bigot. It's your opinion and you're entitled to it. It does matter to me that you accused me of demanding that you not express your opinion. This is what I seek an apology for or proof of. Making up false attacks in order to claim victim status is what is unfair. I do take such false claims personally.
> 
> All of your claims about religion having been removed come from the viewpoint of the group that still has a large religous based stake and presence in public education and is fighting for more. Rather than arguing that all religion be removed you argue that the status quo is fine. It's easy to do when that status quo encompasses your beliefs and holidays. You haven't responded to or refuted the economic and educational obstacles that occur when a significant portion of a school district will be absent to celebrate their religous holiday. Factors mentioned in the article on Redondo Beach which you dismissed with your claim that education wasn't mentioned.


Thought I'd check back in and see if proof of my "demands" was forthcoming yet. Or an apology. A simple retraction. Nothing? How passive agressive.


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

mmoetc said:


> It matters not to me that you called me a bigot. It's your opinion and you're entitled to it. It does matter to me that you accused me of demanding that you not express your opinion. This is what I seek an apology for or proof of. Making up false attacks in order to claim victim status is what is unfair. I do take such false claims personally.
> 
> All of your claims about religion having been removed come from the viewpoint of the group that still has a large religous based stake and presence in public education and is fighting for more. Rather than arguing that all religion be removed you argue that the status quo is fine. It's easy to do when that status quo encompasses your beliefs and holidays. You haven't responded to or refuted the economic and educational obstacles that occur when a significant portion of a school district will be absent to celebrate their religous holiday. Factors mentioned in the article on Redondo Beach which you dismissed with your claim that education wasn't mentioned.





mmoetc said:


> Thought I'd check back in and see if proof of my "demands" was forthcoming yet. Or an apology. A simple retraction. Nothing? How passive agressive.


Excellent posts on this thread, mmoetc. 

I highly doubt that you will get what you ask for though.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

I have an ex wife, a wife, a daughter and a grandchild. I long ago gave up expecting to get what I wanted. I doubt my request here will change trend.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

The NYC calendar doesn't name Easter on the calendar, just "spring recess". But if you fast forward to September, both the Jewish and Islamic holidays are named. Back in December, the 25th is marked "winter recess", Christmas is not even mentioned unlike other official holidays recognized by the US government on the calendar. Now what that says to me, is that the minority holidays are on the calendar and schools are closed to pander to those groups, to be PC. Because they aren't all being treated equally. 

But once you start down that path of equality, where does it stop or which forks do you follow? Shall we close the schools for Hindu holidays, Pagan, any and all beliefs? School would be closed more than open! So you apply some common sense, and close the schools only when enough students and staff are going to miss school for that holiday to be disruptive. But that doesn't seem to be happening in NYC.


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

MO_cows said:


> The NYC calendar doesn't name Easter on the calendar, just "spring recess". But if you fast forward to September, both the Jewish and Islamic holidays are named. Back in December, the 25th is marked "winter recess", Christmas is not even mentioned unlike other official holidays recognized by the US government on the calendar. Now what that says to me, is that the minority holidays are on the calendar and schools are closed to pander to those groups, to be PC. Because they aren't all being treated equally.
> 
> But once you start down that path of equality, where does it stop or which forks do you follow? Shall we close the schools for Hindu holidays, Pagan, any and all beliefs? School would be closed more than open! So you apply some common sense, and close the schools only when enough students and staff are going to miss school for that holiday to be disruptive. But that doesn't seem to be happening in NYC.


Easter is never on a school day. Spring break might not coincide with Easter every year. Apparently, it does in the NYC school district this year. 

The Jewish and Islamic holidays you named are on school days, at least in 2015. There is a very large population of both Jewish and Muslim students in NYC. Due to state aid, staffing, etc. it is most likely more cost effective to close school. 

Other religions, including Pagans, are given the opportunity to not attend classes on their holidays. The smaller numbers would not have the impact on attendance that the larger religions do.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Doggonedog said:


> Easter is never on a school day. Spring break might not coincide with Easter every year. Apparently, it does in the NYC school district this year.
> 
> The Jewish and Islamic holidays you named are on school days, at least in 2015. *There is a very large population of both Jewish and Muslim students in NYC. *Due to state aid, staffing, etc. it is most likely more cost effective to close school.
> 
> Other religions, including Pagans, are given the opportunity to not attend classes on their holidays. The smaller numbers would not have the impact on attendance that the larger religions do.


Not according to wikipedia there's not. I looked at that...way back in post #7. 

People can put all the spin on it they want to, when you look at everything together, the muslim holidays were most likely added out of PC-ness, or "bowing to the muslims" as HD so inelegantly put it. The majority Christians are just supposed to "suck it up, buttercup", when the school system won't even name their holidays on the calendar. Some religions are more "equal" than others in this day and age. 

I have said all along, if there are enough people missing school over a given holiday to be disruptive, it would be best to close the school. No disagreement there. Any religion. But when a certain group is a small minority whose absence probably wouldn't be missed, then why disrupt the lives of the majority of kids and their families to close down a large school system for that holiday? To try and garner political favor, that's why.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

In-eloquent. Moi?


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

MO_cows said:


> Not according to wikipedia there's not. I looked at that...way back in post #7.
> 
> People can put all the spin on it they want to, when you look at everything together, the muslim holidays were most likely added out of PC-ness, or "bowing to the muslims" as HD so inelegantly put it. The majority Christians are just supposed to "suck it up, buttercup", when the school system won't even name their holidays on the calendar. Some religions are more "equal" than others in this day and age.
> 
> I have said all along, if there are enough people missing school over a given holiday to be disruptive, it would be best to close the school. No disagreement there. Any religion. But when a certain group is a small minority whose absence probably wouldn't be missed, then why disrupt the lives of the majority of kids and their families to close down a large school system for that holiday? To try and garner political favor, that's why.


I finally remembered what happened when there was a major predicted drop in attendance on some school days due to regional or religious issues. We did not get anywhere the number of days off we do now so it did happen. We had an assembly with some interesting topic, like the day a Kendo club came to give a demonstration, or the school trooped off the student's to a movie or we had a game day or we participated in a school project like clean up. There was just a minimal teaching day.
It was not the big deal made of everything that seems to be now with the adults jockeying for power using the school system as a playing field. There is so much in the modern educatiin industry that is unproductive.


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

I have a few things to say about this...

1) It's a public school. If a significant enough population in the area practices Islam, it makes sense for school to be shut down on that day because those people are part of the public. Their taxes help to fund the school.

2) Teacher work days are not a bad thing. Those days are when teachers receive professional development to help them be better teachers. Most that I have gone to have involved integrating new technologies or learning strategies. Either those days are baked into the schedule, or that training simply isn't going to happen.

3) Before you ask for year round school, I suggest considering how that will affect your taxes. Teachers are paid for 9 months of employment. More school days means higher salary demands. Additionally, do you realize how expensive it is to run a school district for a day? The state capitol of NH has a school budget over $78,000,000 per year and it is only a city of 45,000 people. The reality is that it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars a day to operate a medium sized district like that. Those costs include facilities costs, wages, technology costs, special education costs, materials costs, etc. If you want to run a year round schedule and move your district beyond the typical 180 day schedule for students and 185-190 for teachers, you need to expect substantial tax increases to pay for it. Similarly, this is why operating a school on a major religious holiday is not necessarily a good thing... just because 15% fewer students show up that day doesn't mean it costs any less to operate the district.

As a parent and a teacher, I am not convinced that a year round schedule is best. There are far more learning opportunities in the world than those found in a classroom. I think that typical students have too much seat time and not enough experiential learning in the real world.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

V-NH said:


> I have a few things to say about this...
> 
> 1) It's a public school. If a significant enough population in the area practices Islam, it makes sense for school to be shut down on that day because those people are part of the public. Their taxes help to fund the school.
> 
> ...


Or you might think that teachers (sorry to some who are sincerely underpaid) are paid for full time work already.


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

I am paid for full time work nine months out of the year. I've got seven years of college at top universities under my belt as well as several successful years of teaching experience. If my district were to extend the school year without providing adequate additional compensation, I would simply take my services elsewhere. Many others would, too, which is why compensation would increase as days worked increases. Good school districts don't have the luxury of alienating their employees in the manner you're suggesting. Furthermore, with the volume of teachers leaving the profession right now, no one can afford to chase off employees. Check out the following article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/08/AR2006050801344.html



> ...half of new U.S. teachers are likely to quit within the first five years because of poor working conditions and low salaries.


The myth of overpaid, overcompensated teachers is exactly that: a myth. If it were true, districts across the country wouldn't be having such a hard time recruiting and retaining quality employees.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

V-NH said:


> I am paid for full time work nine months out of the year. I've got seven years of college at top universities under my belt as well as several successful years of teaching experience. If my district were to extend the school year without providing adequate additional compensation, I would simply take my services elsewhere. Many others would, too, which is why compensation would increase as days worked increases. Good school districts don't have the luxury of alienating their employees in the manner you're suggesting. Furthermore, with the volume of teachers leaving the profession right now, no one can afford to chase off employees. Check out the following article:
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/08/AR2006050801344.html
> 
> ...


Might an argument be made that if teachers are grossly underpaid there would be an exodus from the teaching profession?


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

I would also add, for your consideration, the fact that teaching is a profession that provides prime conditions for burnout. In order to actually be good at it, you've got to work 60+ hours per week. You take 2-3 hours of work home with you every day. Every, single issue in the community is reflected in your classroom whether it is poverty, drug abuse, physical abuse, mental illness, or the countless other variables that affect a population. You face pressure from administration, pressure from colleagues, pressure from parents, pressure from the political structures in your town/city [school board, city council], pressure from the federal government and pressure from students. You've got to be a master at navigating social situations, because you will interact with 150+ people every, single day and you need to interact with each one in exactly the right way. If you happen to make a mistake at any point, for any reason, it is perceived as such an egregious violation that the sky opens up and lightning bolts fly down from all directions to smite you. Despite the extreme level of commitment needed, large swaths of society view you as a leech because you get paid $40,000 and have health insurance. Little respect is offered, just jabs and proposals aimed at reducing your quality of life as much as possible.

Now... don't get me wrong. I absolutely love my job and love the profession, but by the time each vacation rolls around I am running on empty in all emotional and physical respects and need some time with my family in order to recharge and do it all over again. Frankly, I think that kids feel the same way. When they return from vacation they are energized, and by the time the next one arrives their energy and achievement has slowed down substantially.

Hey... have you ever seen this chart from the Washington Post?










Those salaries seem very reasonable compared to the cost of living in each area. If you want to reduce those figures substantially, remove the requirement for teachers to go to college for 4-6+ years. Don't complain when you see the consequences of that decision, either


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

HDRider said:


> Might an argument be made that if teachers are grossly underpaid there would be an exodus from the teaching profession?


Did you read that link? There is. 50% of new teachers leave the profession within 5 years. If that isn't a mass exodus, I don't know what is.


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

It's especially bad in math and special education, where their expertise is far more valuable in the private sector. One of my wife's friends just left her $37,000/yr special education teacher job for a $70,000 "disabilities consultant" position at a private university. Now she gets to work half as hard, take no work home, and get paid double what she was making as an educator. She's got a masters degree by the way 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for higher teacher pay. I think that should be entirely up to individual localities and school boards, but to argue that teachers are overcompensated is really just ideological, not factual. Just because you don't want to pay someone doesn't mean they're making more than their labor is worth.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

V-NH said:


> Did you read that link? There is. 50% of new teachers leave the profession within 5 years. If that isn't a mass exodus, I don't know what is.


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

30% overall, 50% among people new to the profession. Consider what that means for the overall candidate pool as the baby boomers retire.


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

MO_cows said:


> Not according to wikipedia there's not. I looked at that...way back in post #7.
> 
> People can put all the spin on it they want to, when you look at everything together, the muslim holidays were most likely added out of PC-ness, or "bowing to the muslims" as HD so inelegantly put it. The majority Christians are just supposed to "suck it up, buttercup", when the school system won't even name their holidays on the calendar. Some religions are more "equal" than others in this day and age.
> 
> I have said all along, if there are enough people missing school over a given holiday to be disruptive, it would be best to close the school. No disagreement there. Any religion. But when a certain group is a small minority whose absence probably wouldn't be missed, then why disrupt the lives of the majority of kids and their families to close down a large school system for that holiday? To try and garner political favor, that's why.


Well, it's a very good thing that the NYCDOE doesn't have to run everything by you, isn't it?

Apparently, they feel (based on real statistics) that there are enough Muslims in their school districts to shut down for major Muslim holidays. 

What is it that has been said so often on General Chat? Oh, yeah. Some people will be offended about anything, and now that includes states they don't live in giving holidays to their school children.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Doggonedog said:


> Well, it's a very good thing that the NYCDOE doesn't have to run everything by you, isn't it?
> 
> Apparently, they feel (based on real statistics) that there are enough Muslims in their school districts to shut down for major Muslim holidays.
> 
> What is it that has been said so often on General Chat? Oh, yeah. Some people will be offended about anything, and now that includes states they don't live in giving holidays to their school children.


Are there that many more muslims now, or are they just learning to flex their political muscle? Building a mosque at ground zero says they are ready to assert themselves in a big way now. 

Every reference I can find to demographics in NYC schools, Hispanics are the majority, followed by black, white, Asian and the infamous other, in that order. Arab muslims would be a small subset of "white", plus some from the black population, again likely a small percentage. So probably no more muslim kids were absent from school for the whatchamacallit holiday which follows Rhamadan, than who are out sick on any given day. 

We'll never know if the NYC school district would be better or worse off without my input, because I wouldn't live there for love nor money. But I can't help but think a little laid back Midwestern common sense wouldn't hurt them one bit!


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MO_cows said:


> Are there that many more muslims now, or are they just learning to flex their political muscle? Building a mosque at ground zero says they are ready to assert themselves in a big way now.
> 
> Every reference I can find to demographics in NYC schools, Hispanics are the majority, followed by black, white, Asian and the infamous other, in that order. Arab muslims would be a small subset of "white", plus some from the black population, again likely a small percentage. So probably no more muslim kids were absent from school for the whatchamacallit holiday which follows Rhamadan, than who are out sick on any given day.
> 
> We'll never know if the NYC school district would be better or worse off without my input, because I wouldn't live there for love nor money. But I can't help but think a little laid back Midwestern common sense wouldn't hurt them one bit!


Facts do not matter.


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

MO_cows said:


> Are there that many more muslims now, or are they just learning to flex their political muscle? Building a mosque at ground zero says they are ready to assert themselves in a big way now.
> 
> Every reference I can find to demographics in NYC schools, Hispanics are the majority, followed by black, white, Asian and the infamous other, in that order. Arab muslims would be a small subset of "white", plus some from the black population, again likely a small percentage. So probably no more muslim kids were absent from school for the whatchamacallit holiday which follows Rhamadan, than who are out sick on any given day.
> 
> We'll never know if the NYC school district would be better or worse off without my input, because I wouldn't live there for love nor money. But I can't help but think a little laid back Midwestern common sense wouldn't hurt them one bit!


There never was a mosque at ground zero. There was/is (I can't verify if it's still in use) a small mosque on Park St. Is that what you're referring to? 

The reason why the whatchamcallit Christian holiday after Good Friday isn't listed on a SCHOOL calendar is because it's not on a SCHOOL day, and never will be. I believe that statistics (please note: the stats I'm referring to are not "Google researched" but are actual numbers) rather than "laid back Midwestern common sense" dictate how New York City Dept. of Education decides which holidays it's schools will be closed. I'd go with the numbers. 

Why, as someone who lives in (most likely) rural MO, would you possibly care what holidays the New York City Dept. of Education gives it's students? Does it impact your life in any way? It's like a person from Manhattan becoming livid over the fact that the first day of deer season is a ******* holiday in many parts of the country called, "Buck Fever Day" and many schools are closed. Same thing. Low attendance equals cancelled school for financial reasons. 

And the shadow replies, "Yes! Me too!"


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Most of the news stories I've read cite a 10-12% Muslim population in NYC schools. I don't know whether this is "significant" enough for some of you but the powers that be in NYC have decided it is. Given that these students likely aren't evenly distributed some schools and districts are likely much more affected than others but policy must be made for all schools. It makes little sense for different schools within the same district to be on different calendars. There is also the factor that teacher demographics likely mirror those of the students meaning that on certain days a signifcant number of teachers might be absent requiring substitutes who cost extra money. 

Of course we could just go back to the old school way suggested earlier and waste a valuable education day on movies or Judo demonstrations but I though part of the initial complaint about this policy was that it would cost the district education days, something that won't happen under the proposed policy.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Doggonedog said:


> There never was a mosque at ground zero. There was/is (I can't verify if it's still in use) a small mosque on Park St. Is that what you're referring to?
> 
> The reason why the whatchamcallit Christian holiday after Good Friday isn't listed on a SCHOOL calendar is because it's not on a SCHOOL day, and never will be. I believe that statistics (please note: the stats I'm referring to are not "Google researched" but are actual numbers) rather than "laid back Midwestern common sense" dictate how New York City Dept. of Education decides which holidays it's schools will be closed. I'd go with the numbers.
> 
> ...


And I guess you care so much because you do live there? Got kids in NYC schools?

On the school calendar, Christmas was on a weekday and labeled "winter recess". 

The last stats I looked at came from an official site: http://schools.nyc.gov/AboutUs/schools/data/stats/default.htm

Although they only list race, not religion. 

Again, when you look at everything together, it just oozes PC and not logic.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MO_cows said:


> And I guess you care so much because you do live there? Got kids in NYC schools?
> 
> On the school calendar, Christmas was on a weekday and labeled "winter recess".
> 
> ...


And Christmas did fall in the middle of the winter recess. A recess that also includes New Year's Day which also isn't singled out. No one's taking Christmas off the school calendar.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5027866. Here's some breakdown of US Muslims by race. How this affects your perception is up to you. Gathering religous data in the census and by most government agencies is frowned upon. What is the percentage of missing students would trigger a school holiday for you? The 10-12% commonly cited? How much higher? How do you deal with schools in neighborhoods that have much higher populations of a given religion. How many such schools must be affected before district wide action is appropiate? Individual districts must answer these questions for themselves. I trust that they will. I trust that the NYC schools weighed all these factors and some others in their decision. Their decision doesn't matter much to me or really affect me. I do find it interesting and worthy of discussion that some only see political correctness in this decision and are somehow threatened by it and its ramifications.


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

MO_cows said:


> And I guess you care so much because you do live there? Got kids in NYC schools?
> 
> On the school calendar, Christmas was on a weekday and labeled "winter recess".
> 
> ...


No kids in the NYC school district, but then again I'm not the one with ruffled feathers about a district's decision to actually name Muslim holidays on a school calendar AND have the audacity to shut down the schools for those days. I do love to visit NYC though, one of my absolutes favorites to just walk through and savor the sights and sounds. Oh, and no kids in a rural district so I promise not to whine about the *******, "Buck Fever Day" holiday either. 

Like mmoetc pointed out, asking for religious affiliation is a no-no.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

mmoetc said:


> And Christmas did fall in the middle of the winter recess. A recess that also includes New Year's Day which also isn't singled out. No one's taking Christmas off the school calendar.
> 
> *Well, duh! Christmas is the reason for the winter recess. And yes, the word Christmas most certainly was taken off the calendar, I attached the pdf from the NYCSD in a previous post. *
> 
> http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5027866. Here's some breakdown of US Muslims by race. How this affects your perception is up to you. Gathering religous data in the census and by most government agencies is frowned upon. What is the percentage of missing students would trigger a school holiday for you? The 10-12% commonly cited? How much higher? How do you deal with schools in neighborhoods that have much higher populations of a given religion. How many such schools must be affected before district wide action is appropiate? Individual districts must answer these questions for themselves. I trust that they will. I trust that the NYC schools weighed all these factors and some others in their decision. Their decision doesn't matter much to me or really affect me. I do find it interesting and worthy of discussion that some only see political correctness in this decision and are somehow threatened by it and its ramifications.


PC-ness run amok is one of my pet peeves. Showing respect for others is all well and good, that's the way it should be. But it has gone overboard. Way overboard. To the point if anything negative is said about anyone other than a WASP, no matter how true, it is labeled as hate. And if you push back against excessive PC, you are labeled as *******, insensitive, bigoted, whatever. We haven't found our balance yet.

Exhibit A, Look at how much blowback I'm getting here, for raising the question of how practical it is to close down a major school district for what may be a very obscure holiday for 90% of the students! And pointing out the "ethnic cleansing" of the Christian holiday from the calendar.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

So is the uproar over the Muslim holidays added (one of which is not even during school sessions) or is it over the adding of the Muslim holidays and that they are labeled as such while Christmas is not?

Or, is it the number of school days that the kids will miss after the addition of the Muslim holidays? 

See, since there wasn't this uproar over the adding and 'recognition' of Jewish holidays, one has to believe that the issue doesn't lie with the number of days missed. If we are made aware over what the uproar is about, perhaps we could discuss that in specifics instead of pointing out that more days are missed over 'Winter Break" than the entire Jewish and Muslim days combined. 

I agree that the PC-mess has gotten a little out of hand. But here, we had Christmas break, along with a Christmas program and I could care less. If some Rastafari came in and wanted to add one of their recognized days I could care less.

So, I guess until we understand what made people upset we can't accurately discuss it.


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