# how to check freemartin status?



## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

The babies are growing horns.........
No big deal right~ except for those that don't know 5 months ago I bought 4 bottle babies~ two bulls (steers now) and two heifers. I THOUGHT I asked all the right questions but very shortly after I got them home I discovered that asking questions doesn't necessarily get you HONEST answers. The calves were younger than I thought, not the breeding I thought (the man told me dairy/beef cross but their pics say holstien/jersey to the folks here) AND they were sick. Really sick. It was quite the battle to keep all 4 alive and I'm pretty proud of them.

BUT~ One of the questions I asked specifically was "Are they polled" and he said "Yes". I didn't want cows with horns~ I've never kept cattle before and I was trying to limit the ways I could be injured through ignorance. Well~ they are 5 months old now.......and no doubt......they all 4 are growing horns.

Another question I specifically asked was "Are they freemartins" and he said "No and they were tubed just to be sure". Well.......shortly after I realized how very sick they were and we were at the vet every other day getting another med or more advice I asked about tubing the heifers to double check and the VET said they were too small for that. So I've been kind of just hoping and waiting till they were bigger..............

They are bigger now~ and I have even more evidence that the seller just told me whatever he thought I wanted to hear to get my money...........

And I'm terribly attached to the girls and really want them to really be breedable heifers............

When are they big enough to tube? Is tubing the most effective way of checking? I read about this blood test thing but I'm afraid to try to draw blood...............

Someone want to come check my little girls for me?
Or at least tell me what to do now before I get anymore attached or put anymore work into taming them into the fine friendly cows I'm wanting to have? This man had 6 or 7 heifers there and a lot of bull calves......what are the chances that all the heifers he had there were freemartins and mine are too?


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

See if they have abnormally long hair growing around the lady parts, even at birth. 

See if the urine stream pulses when it comes out. 

If you have both, they are probably freemartins.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Ed is correct, and sometimes they just plain look differnt back there. I think it is so bad that people take advantage of one another. Hope your heifers are ok, maybe they just have horns.That would be an easier fix. Thanks Marc


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Cheryl, sorry to say but the girl needed to be freemartin probed from 1-30 days old. I have used a test tube. The auction I visit uses a probe on every heifer for sale. Buyer witness the procedure. Anyway a blood test is the only option you have left, that or time....I'd have a Vet draw the blood and submit for testing...Sure wish you asked this question five months ago....Topside


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=271f165c-79b3-40d0-9ede-5595e43850f1


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

well.........
Now I'm even more frustrated. I DID ask my vet 5 months ago and he said they were too small to tube then..........


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

My vet said to be sure, you need to do an internal exam (in my case - he does) after six months of age at least. Tubing that early isn't always reliable.


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## JKB07 (Mar 6, 2008)

Cheryl, where are you located? If your not too far I can come and take a look or maybe help you draw blood... 

I know how much work you have put into these guys....


Just let me know if I can help in any way...


Justin


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

The tube is 1000% if it does not go in they are a freemartin


the Tube is not used or should be used to prove THEY ARE A BREEDER

Even the blood test will tell you IF she is a freemartin but IT will not tell you she will breed

even at 2 years old and have 50 vets stick there hand in there....they will miss if a cow will bred...that takes a bull

take 100 heifers of any bred all passed by vets , blood tested and only about 98 % will breed


ps ask your vet if he has ever heard of tubing a calf I bet he has not


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Myerfarm raises 90 plus bottle heifers per year so he's one great source of info..Topside


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I looked this morning and the girls do have very long hair hanging down from their vulvas. Longer than normal? I have no clue.

Justin~ I'm in Falkville~ about 60 miles north of Birmingham on the 65. Thanks for the offer. We should meet up and do BBQ sometime! But I don't want to make you come out here and do work for me. This is something I should learn how to do. But definately BBQ if your ever in the area!

Meanwhile~ I'm going to call my vet this morning and ask about drawing blood to be sent off. As Myerfarm pointed out it won't tell me if they will be breeders or not but it will tell me if they are freemartins at least and I'm very worried that they are. My vet is really a very nice guy and I know I can get him to show me how to do the blood draw so I'll know how to do it next time (or for my goats so I can consider doing those tests). Apparently he did not know about probing young calves......but you can bet I'll tell him and about the tool Topside showed us as well.

Thanks everyone. I'm pretty worried about this~ I've put a lot of work into turning the girls into pets so they would be the cows I want in a few years. If they are freemartins..........my next step may be to figure out how to sue the guy who sold them to me and told me they were not.


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Cheryl if the seller has one honest bone in his body then he's sold you non-breeders for $40-80 just guessing. If the same honest seller sold you the heifers for $150-$250 then you should feel they are intact and breedable. This is providing the seller is honest. Simply put only you know what you paid for the girls. Bottom line if you paid less than $80 for each for them you bought freemartins, I'm positive about that, without a blood test. However getting a blood sample will eliminate all doubt....Topside


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

On a positive note: At the local dairy auction only 1%-2% of all calves sold are freemartins. 2 out of 100 heifers. So maybe this percentage has given you some hope..Topside


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Cheryl,

Even with the worst possible luck, I doubt they are BOTH freemartins...

It is a good idea to be confident at taking blood samples, at any rate. Try not too worry too much.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

topside1 said:


> Cheryl if the seller has one honest bone in his body then he's sold you non-breeders for $40-80 just guessing. If the same honest seller sold you the heifers for $150-$250 then you should feel they are intact and breedable. This is providing the seller is honest. Simply put only you know what you paid for the girls. Bottom line if you paid less than $80 for each for them you bought freemartins, I'm positive about that, without a blood test. However getting a blood sample will eliminate all doubt....Topside


I paid $300 each for *almost weened, healthy, polled, NOT freemartin beef/dairy cross heifers.

I know for sure I paid $300 each and GOT very young (maybe a week or two on three of them~ one of the heifers was probably not even a weeks old) SICK, NOT POLLED, most likely to two dairy breed cross heifers that I'm now worried may also be freemartins.

For anyone else considering calves I bought them from a man on 48 Creek Rd in Waynesboro TN.

The info about how rare they are does make me feel a bit better. Thank you.


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## TK04 (Apr 8, 2009)

Definitely no expert here but we have a few cows. I would be surprised if you got two free martins unless the seller really had lots of calves to sell. If aren't sure what a normal heifer's vulva looks like, it may be difficult to figure out what looks abnormal. Typically on a breeding heifer there are some longer hairs that come down but things look fairly smooth. Bushy, coarse hair, extra hairy or some protrusion are good signs of free martins. Don't know what you would enter in to see pics of normal looking heifers but I know there are some pics out there that show free martins. I guess like most here suggest, have someone help you with the blood test to put your mind at ease. Horns are easily burned when done early and I would recommend it. Don't forget what size of animal you may end up with if that makes any difference in keeping them but personality is more important to me than breed.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Just spoke with the vet~ says drawing the blood and knocking off the horns no problem but he doesn't know where to send the blood. I'm searching for a local lab now~ I see UC Davis does it for $50 each and Genetic visions at $25 each. neither is local~ I'm hunting for a closer one and then I'll load up the girls. I don't think I'll pay to have the horns knocked off the boys. Once I know how maybe I'll do it or I'll leave them on since they are destined to be dinner anyway.


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Most states have labs, how about Auburn U.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Auburn has a lab but they don't seem to do genetic testing. I called Genetic Visions and they said drawing it on a Friday and sending it USPS properly wrapped was no problem. The blood does not have to be refrigerated. I printed the lab forms and got the trailer rigged up. On my way out now to load up the girls. Vet says he'll teach me how to draw the blood and how to knock the horns off the girls. Useful knowledge I should have for both the cows and the goats so I don't have a problem paying for the lesson. Genetic visions only charges $25 each for the freemartin tests and it will take aprox 10 days for results...............

So off I go~ wish me luck!


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

Let us know how everything works out. I am interested in the tubing idea as we bought twins and one of the pair is a heifer. I know that the odds are in favor of her being a freemartin, but would like to know for sure.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

wishing you luck


tjm


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

It's done~ and I really needed the good luck wishes. Wow. The drawing the blood was nothing~ simple~ I'm sure I could do it myself no problem. The blood is on it's way to Genetic Visions now~ I'll let y'all know when I get the results.

The removing the horns...........

OH MY GOD THAT WAS NOT WHAT I EXPECTED

I was anticipating a hot iron~ a little burning and bawling............
Nope~
He locked them into a head and body trap~ shot lidacane into their heads (THANK GOD he did that) and came at them with a medieval torture device that looked like two razor lipped cups with long handles. He clamped that on their heads and CUT down the to skull! Blood shot out......not seeped.......not poured.....SHOT IN ARCS out of their poor heads. The girls screamed, bawled, threw themselves down in the contraption rolled their eyes into the backs of their heads and looked DEAD while foam poured out of their mouths.

The vet said it's worse with "Pets" they make a bigger stink and are more dramatic about it. The girls certainly were dramatic!! The vet said something about me possibly being too softhearted to raise my own meat so I explained to him that I butcher my own chickens and goats on my front porch.............but I do the dead FAST and there is NO SCREAMING or SHOOTING ARCS of blood!

The girls look bad. The vet said NOT to wash it. He told me several times (guess it was obvious how very badly I wanted to clean them up) only to spray them with some fly spray to keep the fly's out.......then HE sprayed them with fly spray and told me not to mess with the wounds................


















I wonder if the girls will ever forgive me?


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## Judith (Jan 10, 2003)

They will forgive you dont worry  Yup it looks gross BUT you should see it on a full grown cow...ewww We had an old gal rip one of her horns about half way off. it was the most horrifying thing I have ever seen ( insert ralphing icon) and i am about as non- ruffleable as a gal can get. Just when you think working with cows can't get any more traumatizing.....


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## Curtis B (Aug 15, 2008)

Gotta wonder what that feels like after the pain meds wear off.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Looked and sounded like it hurt WHILE the pain meds were in effect. Now the girls won't come up out of the woods to me. They are standing down there looking like "try to make me" when I call. This evening when I put the boys back in with them and the boys show them that coming to me still gets you your grain maybe the forgiveness will start!

NO WAY I'm ever doing that myself! Vet only charged me $10 each to do it..........and it was and certainly will always be worth MORE than $10 for me to NOT do that!


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

maybe it is just the picture but those EARS look a lot bigger then they should if out of 2 dairy breeds


looks like he did a great job to me

tjm


just one more thought on the freemartin probe


thats why it is called a freemartin probe and not a breedable probe

it will tell you real quick if they have a short uterious and will never bred
before you put all that money into them then find out when they are 400 lbs

but the probe if it goes in does not mean they will bred just not a short uterious


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

myersfarm said:


> maybe it is just the picture but those EARS look a lot bigger then they should if out of 2 dairy breeds
> 
> 
> looks like he did a great job to me


Thanks~ it's good to hear they look okay to someone who knows.......they look awful to me but I do trust my vet and he said they were fine and not to touch it~ don't wash it~ don't rub antibiotic into it (he did directly after he did it and told me NOT to) just to pretend it doesn't look like a gruesome wound and that I didn't see them act like he was killing them!

As far as the ear thing~ like I said~ I bought them as Dairy/beef cross~ but people here told me they looked to be holstien/jersey cross. Now one of the steers obviously is holstien or holstien cross........but the other three all look pretty much alike. Bossy does have some white across her belly~ but bessie and burger do not.

Here is a pic of them when I'd had them about two weeks (thats *edit~ oops*....I think thats Burger the steer in this pic I'm feeding)









And here is a more recent pic of them from Aug 15th (Thats Bossie in blue, Bessie in red, Burger in green, Sofa in purple)


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

must be color blind my picture has 2 green halters



The one you are feeding if it has horns is a Jersey/ Holstien cross for sure

the two girls must just have big Holstien ears on jersey heads


the one in the center front and front next to fence one of them must be same as one you are feeding


looks like they might. have a little something else in there because they are so fat....but are same condition as the holstien color in back...so you must be feed them THE GOOD STUFF


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Turn em around and take some pictures. We can guess if they are freemartins before you get the tests back.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

agree yes let us guess


need picture of udder being able to see teats and rear female parts in same shot if you can with tail not in the way


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Cheryl, if you ever need disbudding training I'd be glad to help...Goat kids and calves are my specialty, no blood that's a promise...Just PM me, I'd be glad to teach you...Topside


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Argh, dehorning. I would rather do almost anything else. It is so much easier to disbud them with the iron when they are really little. It sounds like you had a heckuva day!

How long til the blood work is done? 

Cheryl, you are doing a great job with these cows, even though they may not appreciate you right now...  I agree with not washing the heads on them, just be SURE no flies lay any eggs there...


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## Jennifer L. (May 10, 2002)

topside1 said:


> On a positive note: At the local dairy auction only 1%-2% of all calves sold are freemartins. 2 out of 100 heifers. So maybe this percentage has given you some hope..Topside



Actually, that's not true: Twinning runs 5% or higher (ran about 10% on this farm, for example,which is way high), so you'd expect half heifers and then of course only bull/heifer twins are the ones with affected heifers. BUT, dairy farmers keep their heifer calves a good share of the time, and they ALMOST NEVER raise heifers from bull/heifer twins. So the chance of buying a freemartin at the sales barn is quite high. If you see a small heifer calf at a sale I'd say the odds of it being a freemartin are in the range of 25-35%. The only heifer I'd buy at a sale would be the 90-100 pounders with dried, attached umbilical cord, so you could be reasonably sure it wasn't a twin.

Jennifer


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I'll get someone to hold them tomorrow so we can get some pics of their backsides. No way they are gonna let me do it by myself~ they've made it clear I'm the bad guy right now. Tempted them to eat a little cracked corn from my hand......but I may NOT scratch the cow or attempt to be affectionate.......they stomp away and look at me suspiciously when I call them "Come on Babies"........maybe I shouldn't have used that to call them into the chute. But they were tempted by the grain so I'm sure we'll make friends again if I keep plenty of grain in my pockets!

Topside~ it would be great to learn disbudding sometime. Thats what I thought I was going to learn today~ but it was actual dehorning. The vet warned me it could be gruesome and I told him no problem I'm not easily grossed out.........but the screaming and bleeding did freak me out a LOT more than I would have guessed.....and I don't ever want to do that again. I can and have butchered and while I certainly do not enjoy it.......it does not bother me as much as what I helped the vet do today. I know it's a good thing......but it felt like cruelty.

The blood tests take an average of ten days from the time they get the samples. They won't get them until Monday or Tuesday~ so approx 10 days from then. I'll be sure to update when I get the results.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

I think the freemartin thing goes by sale barns

a sale in Louisana had a 3 % freemartins and all the calfs [ bought at 3 days old and tubed ] sold as good ones thats over 300 calfs all were good [ checked by a vet at 400 pounds ]


a sale in Texas had a 8% freemartins... have bought 150 calfs from there only sold 50..... all 50 passed by the vet.........when I saw how the guy checked them I bought 3 of the freemartins for $25 to $45 have not sold them yet so I will see if they pass the test of a vet... he checked all size calfs the same way jersey or holstien


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Cheryl, I'm going to poke my oar in now and tell you to calm down and wait for the blood tests to come back - and, like Topside, to take a positive view. The chances of these calves being freemartins isn't beyond the realms of possibility but unlikely. If they are, it's no great loss, they will have to go as beef and you start again with a little more knowledge under your belt 

I can almost guarantee that all of these calves are Jersey/Friesian crosses - the colour, large ears (which they will grow into) and light bone structure give it away. I milk one that is jet black but I know for a fact that she is a Jersey/Friesian. They are a popular dairy cross over here and I like them too and in most cases one gets the benefits of both breeds - higher milk yield of the Friesian, higher cream content of the Jersey, the Jersey nature and a cow that is often mid-way between both in terms of size.

Your vet appears to have done an excellent dehorning job and he is quite right - DO NOT touch them or be tempted to clean them up in any way. The horn opens up into the sinus and if water, including rain, gets down into there you could end up with a very sick animal on your hands. Most people consider me a little eccentric because all my cows have their horns and that's the way I prefer it - particularly when I watch them use their horns to give themselves a scratch or toss their hay around to open it up. And no, they don't gore each other or me.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I got the best pics I could. It was raining and the girls were not exactly thrilled to have me messing with them......and then trying to move the tail for the pic caused the cow to move!!! I did my best though~ so here are the porn shots of the cows........I've had both for 5 months so my guess would be that they are between 5 and 6 months old......Bessie was smaller and still had her umbilical cord attached ~ the Vet guessed Bessie at about a week and Bossy at about 2 to 3 weeks old when I purchased them 5 months ago~ . The DNA tests to determine freemartin for sure or not should be in in about 11 to 12 days from now..............

Bessie

















Bossie

















The dehorning yesterday.......I'm guessing the reason I am not to touch or attempt to clean them is so the snot can drain out of the sinus cavity we dug into......and thats why it looks like there is snot draining out the holes in their heads right? I've still not touched their heads.......but it's driving me crazy. Looks like it needs to be cleaned~ especially with the snot draining out......but I've not touched as I was told.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

Guess I am the first to GUESS and i will go with 

100% the first calf is a good one nice udder

75 % the second calf is a good one love the udder but DO NOT LIKE THE LONG HAIRS

the teats on both look good afreemartin will usually have what I call BULL TEATS they will be almost flat and some are I have to keep in mind your calfs are real FAT and that will make there udders and teats bigger but if they looked like that before you fatin them up i would think both are ok

most freemartins will be smooth and have the flat teats ....with very little wrankles in the udder


yes I would have bought both...

best of luck


thats my 2 cents hope I am close

tjm


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

You think they may be too fat? I want them to have good condition but not too fat. I was giving them a bucket of 12% all stock grain morning and evening~ about 10 pounds a bucket full until recently. A couple weeks ago I cut them down to 1 about 10 pound bucket in the evening. They have a wooded pasture they are in most of the time cuz thats where the barn is~ but they've eaten everything they like in there so I've been moving them for several hours a day every day that it's not raining to either the old pig pen (they LOVE that!) or to some of our "lawn" areas where they act like they've been starved and desperately waiting for the move every morning.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

I think they are going to go into winter with good conditioning. They are not TOO fat, yet. Soon enough they will be eating mostly dry feed and plus they are still growing really fast. They look sleek and healthy. Don't be suprised if they lose a bit of condition over the next 2 weeks while they heal from their surgery. 

I wont venture a guess about their freemartin status, I can wait for the lab.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

with a clear mind and a second thought wish I could change that 75 % calf to 50 /50

those hairs are just way to long



To me they are FAT....picking up fat in the udder 

steers your going to eat are just right


tjm


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

I'm no dairymen, however I've never seen hair that long? Topside


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

That long haired one gets my vote for freemartin. When I said long hair before, I didn't mean that long. Wow.


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

Ed Norman, 
Never heard of a freemartin "pulsing" during urination. Tell me more please. The little heifer I bought last week was sold as "open and OK" and she pulses like a clock ticking at the end of her urrination. You've got my thought process in motion. I sure hope I don't have to make a trip back to the auction barn for a return. lol.........


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

francismilker said:


> Ed Norman,
> Never heard of a freemartin "pulsing" during urination. Tell me more please. The little heifer I bought last week was sold as "open and OK" and she pulses like a clock ticking at the end of her urrination. You've got my thought process in motion. I sure hope I don't have to make a trip back to the auction barn for a return. lol.........


A lady just gave me a refresher course in spotting them a few weeks ago. She raises them for meat and says she can spot them a mile away. She's been at it all her life. 

We watched one pee and the urine doesn't come out in a steady stream. Pulsing is the best word I can find. Not just at the end of the stream, but the whole stream pulses.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

francismilker said:


> Ed Norman,
> Never heard of a freemartin "pulsing" during urination. Tell me more please. The little heifer I bought last week was sold as "open and OK" and she pulses like a clock ticking at the end of her urrination. You've got my thought process in motion. I sure hope I don't have to make a trip back to the auction barn for a return. lol.........


Francis, while waiting for cows to milk, I often lean on the gate in true cocky fashion and cast my eye over my herd - and of course they pee and crap at times. And they all "pulse" with one exception. The exception is a cow that had to have a calf removed from her several years ago and I always notice that she pees in a weak stream, takes ages to do it and it tails off to a long dribble. I suspect that the two hour operation to get the calf out has caused some muscle weakness. These cows, including the weak streamer, are all older cows with several calves under their belt so definately are not freemartins 

I'm sorry, but I quite frankly think this "pulsing" theory is an old wives tale and has no basis in fact. 

As to the long vulval hair, I'm not too sure I would read too much into that either. My one and only freemartin heifer had no vulval hair at all, on the other hand I've had calves that went on to make breeding cows with heaps of it and while most of my cows have little on none, a couple still have a fair bit. Most lose it at they mature.

Cheers,
Ronnie 

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Your calves look great now. I do all my dehorning the way your vet did, and my calves never bawl or carry on , just a quick cut , pull the veins, and out they go. But we always dehorn in the fall or early spring before flies. One tip if you have a dehorned calf that keeps bleeding , if you don`t have blood stop powder. A hand full of cob webs or flour works also.Thanks Marc


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Ronney said:


> I'm sorry, but I quite frankly think this "pulsing" theory is an old wives tale and has no basis in fact.


It was an old wife who taught it to me. She was born on a dairy, raised on it, and has 50 years or more experience at it. She also goes to the sale barns and buys the cheap deals, the tested freemartins, and other oddities. That's why she had a small herd of known freemartins to do the show and tell with. 

Here is a US agriculture college site that mentions large tracts of hair being an outward sign:
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/exten/cc-corner/freemartin.html

And here is a Canadian site mentioning the same thing:
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/faq8285

As for the pulsing urine, she says she can tell by that. She was right about the hair, I'm willing to take her word on the urine, too, until proven otherwise.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

They are NOT freemartins! 

Woo Hoo!

I haven't gotten the actual results back yet~ but I was getting antsy and worried that maybe the samples had never even gotten to the lab and I was waiting on nothing so I called to ask if the samples made it to them~ and not only did they make it to them........they had the tests done just not sent out yet and BOTH SAMPLES ARE NOT FREEMARTINS!!!!!!!!!

WOOOO HOOOO!!!!!!


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Oh~ and their heads look better~ if you get right up on them you can tell they had something done to their heads but if you look at them from even just a few feet away you can't even see the wounds any more. It's only been 7 days~ I'm AMAZED how fast such large open wounds are healing!


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

Cheryl great news..

congrades


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

so from now on i will go with what i see in the udder and the size and shape of teats and forget the looooooonnnnggg hairs

still never seen them that long


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

You sure sound happy...made your week I'm sure.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Yay! That is great news. 

Have the girls forgiven you yet, for their surgery?

They will.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Cheryl, I am sure that is good news for you and you can now go on in the sure knowledge that you can breed from them and probably have two very good milkers.

I would like to think this thread will help put paid to the myths surrounding freemartins but unfortunately it probably won't. To use something as vague as long vulval hair as a means of determining a freemartin, is in my mind, about as dumb as saying all Irishmen have red hair. I wonder how many perfectly good heifers have gone to the works on this theory.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

Another freemartin question: 

Why can you only tube them for so many day/weeks after birth? Doesn't the "shut door" last their whole life. From what I understand about a freemartin, the have a blank hole back there.
And, when you pull blood on them, what are you checking for the presence of? Is it hormones? Estrogen?


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

I will give you the way I understand it


there are 4 rings in the vervex of a good heifer the tube is designed to be that long with a little averaging in there on size of calf

some freemartins have no rings and the tube will only start and not go in at all

some freemartins have 3 rings the tubing tool is so long so IF you had a 3 ring freemartin and it was older then 2 months old it might fall into the 4 ring catagor and be checked as a good one

at the sale barn the guy checking them a 35 pound jersey heifer and a 110 holstien the same way he checked a least 8 jersey heifers and 7 were freemartins I bought 2 jersey heifers freemartins just see if I am right and they are good ones plus there were only 3 jersey bulls at the sale so maybe 5 jersey bulls died or were sold another day but just did not seem right to me

the 2 I bought now have wrankles and round teats so we will see what a vet says I am getting better I think at spoting a freemartin heifer


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

Interesting that you say they were all being checked the same way. At the sale I was at two weeks back, the guy wasn't using a tube. He was using a gloved hand and inserting a forefinger. Whether the calf was 2 days, 2 weeks, or 2 months, it got the same test. I wondered myself about accuracy with this method. I also wonder what would happen if a person went back to the sale with a bad heifer sold as good if he had the receipt that showed said heifer as good. I think I know what would happen. Just wondered if it ever has.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

francismilker said:


> And, when you pull blood on them, what are you checking for the presence of? Is it hormones? Estrogen?


They actually do a DNA test and check for the presence of the Y chromosome


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Myersfarm, will a adult freemartin still have heat cycles even though she can't be bred? Thanks


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

They can only use the tube to check the cervex length with the tube but a freemartin also will have one dried up overy and one deformed but if she has one good one 

IF the good overy produces eggs then she will cycle and the bull will bred if he can get in there far enough BUT the uterious is so small the freemartin can not carry to term....or the egg will never latch on so techicailly the freemartin will be bred but not for long and abort


tjm


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

I only buy at a place that uses a mfg tube

I can not imagine getting a finger in far enough to check for the 3 ring freemartins

Keep in mind I HAVE NOT SEEN IT ALL just seen a lot..

.but some farmers take a knife and cut out the closed back door and sell that way of course the calf bleeds and the tube will come out with blood on the tube she will also become infected from the cut do not buy those either


buying cattle is a crap shot right usually there is a sign posted when in the trailer they are yours tell use before loading








francismilker said:


> Interesting that you say they were all being checked the same way. At the sale I was at two weeks back, the guy wasn't using a tube. He was using a gloved hand and inserting a forefinger. Whether the calf was 2 days, 2 weeks, or 2 months, it got the same test. I wondered myself about accuracy with this method. I also wonder what would happen if a person went back to the sale with a bad heifer sold as good if he had the receipt that showed said heifer as good. I think I know what would happen. Just wondered if it ever has.


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## onthespot (Oct 7, 2007)

So Cheryl, does this turn you into a freemartin gambler from here on out? You may have found a niche for yourself by accident! Buy cheap, sell high?


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

myersfarm said:


> They can only use the tube to check the cervex length with the tube but a freemartin also will have one dried up overy and one deformed but if she has one good one
> 
> IF the good overy produces eggs then she will cycle and the bull will bred if he can get in there far enough BUT the uterious is so small the freemartin can not carry to term....or the egg will never latch on so techicailly the freemartin will be bred but not for long and abort
> 
> ...


If you have a known freemartin then it looks like there's probably no sense in bothering to wait and see if she might be in that 5 percent group that can calve? A few weeks ago I purchased a freemartin calf for bull calf price, it sure is a shame as she is sweet. I was contemplating waiting to see how she did, she has never been tested and is 3 months old.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

onthespot said:


> So Cheryl, does this turn you into a freemartin gambler from here on out? You may have found a niche for yourself by accident! Buy cheap, sell high?


Nope~ not me! I bought HIGH and was afraid I'd been ripped off. Thank God they were not freemartins~ that may be the ONLY truth the seller told! I wonder if HE knew they were not freemartins?

But I am considering a couple more heifers. I have the land~ and I really love looking out the window and seeing MY cows! Next time though I think I'm shopping for all beef breed......two dairy cross girls are more than I need for dairy!


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## Donna from Mo (Jan 8, 2003)

I have certainly learned a lot from this thread. That's why I love Homesteading today.


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