# O.K....how bout making money with dairy goats?



## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

Reading the thread about making money on meat goats got me to thinking. We seem to be spending alot of money on our goats these days and getting discouraged about it. Grain, alfalfa, hay, fecal testing, etc.....all adds up to a bunch of money. So...we've been talking about how to keep costs under control. But with dairy you have to keep that milk coming, right?

Now, we just had our first year in goats so we had alot of initial expenses. We now have nine goats--four are milking. Three have been milking since March, one just freshened. We are not seeing alot of return for our money right now b/c three of our milkers were bought in milk--so they're not giving much. (Not the way to go, I know, but at the time we had NO milk and really wanted milkers already going). Anyway.....we keep telling ourselves that it will pay off when we have new does freshen and have milkers giving their true potential and have meat for our freezer and extra does and milk to sell.

I would like to hear others experiences with costs and profit on the dairy side of it. Right now the milk we drink is costing us about $10 a gallon in what we spend!

Our dry does get 1 cup (1/3 pound) of grain a day. Our milkers get 1 cup (1/3 pound) of grain per pint produced. Pregnant does get the same as dry and are gradually increased the last couple of months until they get 2 pounds a day. Kids get a bit of grain at three weeks and go up to a cup once a day until they wean and are gradually switched to hay only. Everyone gets alfalfa mix hay free choice. The milkers get alfalfa pellets in their bucket with grain. Everyone else gets a couple of big gulp cups of alfalfa pellets to divide up between themselves twice a day. I've heard of many doing free choice alfalfa pellets, but we just cannot afford to do it. They eat it like candy.

We do not have a big pasture--no brush, really. So they don't get too much from it. We try to cut them weeds and tree branches every day to save costs but it's very time consuming so it doesn't happen every day. And that's not an option in the winter. And one doe gets cow pie poop every time she eats green stuff anyway.

Any way to save money? Can we expect to do better once we have more of our girls freshen here at their new home? We have customers who want to buy milk but are just now to the point with our new freshener that we can sell two gallons a week. That's about one bag of alfalfa pellets. Sigh.......

Dee


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## steff bugielski (Nov 10, 2003)

I have 30 goats. Most of them do NOT have milk in their bloodlines. They started as pets and when I saw the potential for income I started on the milk path. I spend $10 a day on grain and $12 a day on hay. I am milking 10 right now. I do bring in enough money with the sale of milk, veggies and eggs to cover all expenses. I charge $8 a gallon and have many customers, so come and take 20 gallons at a time. I also sell the kids in the spring for $75 ea. Last season we had 35 kids avail. I kept 4 lost 3 and sold the rest.
Now if I had half as many goats but they gave more milk I would really see a profit.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Look at Emily's posts about why she has gotten out of the commercial goat milk business.

There are several posts in this thread:
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=201793


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## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

Steff are you each year using a good dairy buck to up your production ?

My goats are paying for them selves at this point. Hopefully next year we will make a profit.


Patty


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## RosewoodfarmVA (Oct 5, 2005)

We had some friends who moved down here (VA) from Wisconsin. They had a goat dairy there, but when trying to establish one here were "overwhelmed" by the regulations. In order to do it legally, they had to invest upwards of $10,000 in "USDA approved" concrete milking parlor, stainless sinks, refrigeration tanks, etc. Rather than milking in the barn and bringing it into their kitchen refrigerator! Needless to say they don't run a dairy anymore, but still milk and will give some to friends with a "donation to a charity of our choosing." In other words they support some missionaries and so when people get milk from them they ask the "buyers" to give what they would have spent on the milk to their missionaries instead. So that reduces their own donation to the missionaries. 

Dairy is becoming a "hot topic" in ag today, and the USDA is becoming keen as hawks with regards to homegrown operations. I don't see how you could "legally" run a dairy and be profitable, unless you have a niche market (around here that means Yankee transplants with lotsa money) for your high quality product. Of course if your local market would pay $8-10 a gallon, you could do well. Around here most folks won't pay more than supermarket prices, regardless of the higher quality.

I would say rather than selling the milk, sell the young goats at weaning. Less govt intrusion and probably more profit for less work. Of course that's my 2c as a meat goat grower! If you have the market though and that's what you enjoy doing, go for it! Just keep your eyes out for trouble makers who would report you to the govt. One other thing is that if someone does get sick from your milk (or atleast thinks thats what caused it) you could get into a lot of liability issues! I know it's unlikely, but.....

Hope you can figure out something that "fits" for you.


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## gryndlgoat (May 27, 2005)

I am happy if I break even. It would cost us $3.15 to buy a litre of goat's milk at our local supermarket (it actually isn't bad milk, either). We can easily get that from one doe in milk, so if we can keep costs to $3.15 per day, we are doing fine. "Extra" milk goes to cheese or frozen for the non-milking period. Goat cheese would cost $8 per pound easily, so we save there too. We have four adult goats to feed and, with sales of babies, they are paying for their keep in what we save in groceries.

If you are not planning to grow your dairy herd tremendously in numbers, then why not breed your best milker to the best dairy buck you can, to improve what you will be milking in the next years. Breed the rest to the best meat Boer buck you can find, and sell the babies for meat. You still get milk from everyone that way, with saleable meat goats to boot.


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## BobDFL (Jul 7, 2006)

gryndlgoat, that is my plan.

This is our first year with goats, so we are just getting started.

I will have a small herd of dairy goats to do 3 things, produce milk for the family, for cheese making, and to keep a frozen supply for bottle feeding kids when necessary.

I'm looking at breeding some of my Nubians to a good Nubian buck and sell the registered young to the dairy/show market (can get bigger $ for the babies but the market isn't huge) the others will be bred to a good Boer or Boer% buck for the meat market. Any good doelings from the meat goat matings will be kept to enlarge the meat herd and good doelings from the dairy breedings may be kept as replacement does.

Some of the local dairy people think I'm a little crazy because I want to get my dairy goats to work like meat goats (minimal amounts of extra grain, preference is none since I have pretty good pasture) even though it'll mean a reduction in production per head I'll have a higher profit margin on any of the milk and products. It'll take a couple of years to prove this out but in the mean time I'm working on weaning my dairy does off their grain addiction slowly, while they learn to graze. 

Of the local dairys near me I know of only one is making any money (I'm not sure about a profit) and that is because they have a steady customer that buys all their milk for soap making. Most of the other dairy goat people are just doing for the shows, and the milk is only a means of making the doe look good at the show.


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## bumpus (Jul 30, 2003)

.
You won't make money buying feed.

You make money buy selling common grass, and weeds, and brush, by passing it through the gut of a goat first.

bumpus.


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## MayLOC (Sep 20, 2006)

hmmm.
I bet right now, your girls see alfalfa pellets as an amazing treat. If that was there only choice, I doubt they would be nearly so eager about them. 

We used to feed alfalfa hay and I just cringed at what was wasted and that was with me feeding limited quantities 2x/day. We switched to only alfalfa pellets last summer and have been very happy about it. The initial purchase price might be higher, but the waste is about non-existant, so it comes out better in the long run. I figure right at about 3 lbs. for our milkers and split it up into 2x/day feedings. At night feeding, if there is a little left, then I give just a hare less that feeding, if they are cleaned up completely then I give a hare more, ect... I figure 2 lbs. or so for the growing kids in my head, but adjust accordingly to what they are actually consuming. We get alfalfa pellets in 2 ton sacks, which is a little cheaper than by 50 lb. bags. We have the mill custom mix us 500 lb. batches of oats/barley/cracked corn for on the stand, which saves from buying bulk again. 

We are milking 5 right now, with milk for our family who was consuming $50/month in store milk, and feeding 3 bottle calves. We sold all our excess kids from this year for a good price and have kept back a few. We do not have the best quality, best conformation-type goats, but they are good milkers and healthy and we take care of them the best we know how so they can live up to the best of their abilities.

We also view our goats as livestock, who need to work for us, just like our cows. There are no pets allowed that cannot contribute. Milkers must milk the full season, if they can't keep up they can't stay. Does only get 2 months off. No dry yearlings, just like no open heifers  . Anyhow, that is just how we do it; everybody is different and has different ideas and needs and goals. 

Maybe it is how you look at things also. My personal goals are healthy milk available year round for my allergic-to-cow-milk family, extra milk available for any bottle calves we end up with on the ranch and if we have a little extra for other 'things' great. I feel our situation is profitable for us.


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

Your first years are not money makers, because of the output buying needed equipment, and having to call a vet to do procedures you're not familiar/comfortable with. You have to buy your first breeding stock, and then milking equip. Then breeding costs if you don't have a buck, or the cost of the buck(s). Then birthing costs, castration/disbudding, either having the vet do it, someone else, or buying the equipment. Medications through the vet until you figure out you can order the stuff cheaper through Jeffers or Valley vet. Even selling ALL your milk and kids the first couple of years will not turn a profit. But then, you have a little experience. You have all the "stuff". You don't have to call the vet, hardly ever (even fecals are easy to do, buy a cheap microscope and learn how). Show records start paying off in higher kid prices. People new to goats start calling you, and paying you to disbud and castrate their kids. And all of a sudden, you realize you're ahead. Not by much.... if your goats are paying for themselves after 3 or 4 years, consider yourself successful. However, until you've made enough to cover all the expenses of setting yourself up initially, you're still in the red.


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

One other thing - if you don't have a lot of pasture, then perhaps you have too many goats. If you can't support them on your land, support what you can, or be prepared to buy a lot of supplemental feed and never turn a profit - these days, feed is absolutely the biggest cost. I have 25 acres of oregon coast range brush - my girls browse year round. I can support a lot of goats on this land. If I had less - I'd have fewer goats. As it it, I never need to buy hay for my dozen goats (9 does, 1 fat pet wether, 2 bucks). That's a significant savings and goes a long ways towards my girls supporting themselves and the bucks.


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## mamajohnson (Nov 27, 2002)

I must be doing something different. My DH and I were figuring cost/production the other day. Our chickens are not paying off as well as the goats, but, in the milk department, I have 3 in milk right now, 7 goats in all, 2 headed for the freezer when the temp cools off. I am spending right at 100 dollars a month in feed, plus a 20 dollar hit on wormer last week. Bought a bander/bands for less than 20, one bottle of LA 200, some syringes.. and built my milk stand from scraps we had - zero cost. 
So, I am getting about $100 worth of milk a month (according to grocery store prices) In my opinion, we are making out pretty good. 
But, then, I am not trying to make money, just support our milk habit.
I figured the meat in the freezer would be a bonus, mainly because I do not feed grain to the boys, just my girls in milk, the others are all on browse only.


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## DinOzarks (Feb 10, 2005)

My experience with our toggs is if you give them plenty of pasture they'll give you their best. At first I was all caught up in the "alfalfa all the time" routine and as others mentioned you'd look at your money on the barn floor at the end of the day. Goats have more personality than cows and are easier to make into pets but if you have too many-you have too many; you'll spend all your money on feed. You can stick all the 16% dairy they can eat under their nose, but turn them out to a few post oak tree sprouts and you'd better be ready milk that evening! You might check with hay growers in your area; a lot of times they have mixed grass hay (common) stuff that horses or cows may not like as well but goats will thrive on it. And it is cheaper than alfalfa .Just my two cents worth.


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## dcross (Aug 12, 2005)

Mamadee, what's your grain mix, and any chance you've had the hay tested?

It seems like you're feeding hay/pelleted hay, and could cut one out without any trouble?


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

This is my first year with dairy goats, and I certainly don't come close to making money. I call my goats my money suckers, lol. However, now that I think about it... 

I'm 17, and I own the goats. Most of my goats are minis, and do nothing but eat hay and look cute. I did minimize my mini herd and am now going to be getting more dairies and more meat goats. I do currently have two American alpines. I do all the work and pay for all feed and expenses. BUT, my dad buys the house groceries. He hasn't had to buy a gallon of milk since March... considering our house of 3 would go through two gallons a week or so... Why is my dad not buying my hay?????? HMMMM, gonna have to talk to him about THAT ONE. GRRR. Maybe he'll buy my winter hay supplies for me. 

I feed my bucks and does much differently. 

My bucks never get any grain, and neither do the wethers. The bucks only get hay if their pasture is depleted or if it's winter time. I have yet to feed any hay to my bucks this summer, and they look excellent... besides that they're starting the rut  They will get a cup each of alfalfa pellets every day in the winter, as well as about a flake of hay per day. 

My does are quite different. They are on a severely depleted pasture, so they get hay every day. I would love to be able to free feed them hay, but right now since the hay is priced at 45-50.00 per round bale, I can't afford that. I have two 3' long hay feeders out there, and those get mostly full once per day. The hay is a good quality second cutting alfalfa/grass mix, with tons of great alfalfa for them. They are holding weight well. The mini does only get grain for 1 month out of the year: Two weeks before and Two weeks after kidding. I usually pull all kids off them except for one, so they aren't overly stressed anyways. My dairy does get grain starting two weeks before kidding and through lactation, 1 lb per every 3 lbs milk produced. They're milked 2x per day from kidding until I decide to dry them up. All dairy kids are pulled and raised on CAE prevention. During the winter I will try to up their hay intake and they will also get about 1 cup of alfalfa pellets per day. 

My grain mix is 6 parts purina goat chow, 2 parts alfalfa pellets, 1 part BOSS, and 1 part shredded beet pulp. I like this mix a lot. I got it off this forum. I only have to buy the purina relitively often... I get 40.00 a week for house chores and I am easily able to afford both hay and grain for my goats, and up till recently I had 17 of the lil buggers... thankfully I downsized, especially before winter.


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## Jim S. (Apr 22, 2004)

bumpus and dinOzarks have the essential points, and thanks for your input. If your herd can use what the sun provides on your own farm, for free, without you having to incur much if anything in harevsting costs, you are then way ahead. If it can do so with minimum labor inputs beyond milking chores, you are even farther ahead. If your land was cheap enough and plentiful enough, and your herd is large enough to lift your mortgage, you are on the way to profits. 

As Dr. Frank Pinkerton has said, the feed store is the first enemy of profits, so spend your socializing time elsewhere. LOL.

mamajohnson, you have failed to take into account the costs of your labor and of your land. You are losing money.


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## mamajohnson (Nov 27, 2002)

well Jim,
you probably have a point. But, I had the land anyway, and work all the time cause I dont like being bored.... so, having milk/meat etc is like a huge bonus to me! lol!
(forever optimistic!)


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

In my opinion, making money on milk goats is about the same way you make money on meat goats. With as little input for the most output that you can. By this I don't mean starving or neglecting their care. I mean letting them be goats by not pampering them too much. 
Keep their diets simple. As much browsing as possible. Dairy goats browse very well, its not a meat goat *thing*.
Breed for healthy hardy goats so that you don't spend a fortune on medications.
Feed a good mineral. 
Always breed for improvement in milk and conformation but not at the expense of the hardiness of the individual.
Address dairy goat needs by giving them adequate calcium in their diet.
Sell kids you do not plan to keep as early as possible. The less money you have in them, the more profit you make. I can sell a three day old Nubian kid for $150-$200, or I can wait and sell the same kid at three months old for about the same price, but my profit margin by then is *considerably* slimmer.
Do give Bo-Se if needed. It will improve the health and productivity of your goats. It will also improve conception rates. More kids=more money. And for the price....its a pittance for the improvements it makes.
And eat those milk fed dairy wethers at about 2-3 months of age!! They make healthy, tasty meat that feeds your family. Unless you just have an outstanding wether market, they are much more of an asset in the freezer than on the hoof! Do the butchering yourself, because if you pay to have it done, you just lost a lot of money.
Be tough and cull hard.


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## steff bugielski (Nov 10, 2003)

Patty,
At first no I did not much about the whole process. I did keep a buck out of a good milker and they did OK. I now purchased a buck from nice milk bloodlines. hopefully they will throw some nice does. I will have to wait till this kidding season to find out.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Cost of labor and land.... I've been pondering that comment by Jim. I don't want to step on toes here, and maybe I just have a different way of looking at things, but I'll lay this out anyway. Please, no flames. I'm thinking this through as I type. It's a philosophical essay.  

If we took the cost of our labor into account on everything, we wouldn't 'make a profit' on hardly anything we do. Doing around the farm/ranch is just part of the process. Nobody's going to pay me for spending three hours this morning spraying Round Up on fence lines. I'm not out anything but the cost of the spray and some time. I got a lot of exercise! How would I figure the labor's value? Minimum wage? Or the same as my hubby's hourly wage as a petroleum engineer? I haven't 'lost' the time from another paying project, either, so there's really no net loss or gain, other than the weeds die and my fence line looks better.

If I have goats because I like goats, and it takes me an hour in the morning and two hours in the evening to do goat things, which accounting column does the pleasure of working with them go into?

If I owned the land already, and then I decided to get goats, why would the cost of the land figure into whether I was making money? I'll have the land whether the goats eat the browse or not, whether they produce milk and babies or not, whether I make soap or not. 

I do see that if I wanted a goat dairy farm and started from scratch and had no other income, that I'd need to figure in labor and land. However, that's truly not the situation that most of us are in.

Just my early morning thoughts. If it's worth two cents, I'm not sure which column to put it in. :baby04:


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

is there anyone who does not feed their milkers grain at all? I do, just wondering.


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

Ah, yes...the land. Well, we have 10 acres all together--but that includes our house, some grass/weed pasture, some woods. The barn is connected to a pasture of sorts for the goats that is fenced. Small. We would love to let the goats have free access to our land. The problem is fencing. We just cannot afford to fence that much land right now. It's in the plan, of course. But we're not talking a small amount of money, here. Plus, it depends on what you want to fence. We have a few acres of that grass/weed pasture that would be easier to fence with the electric semi-permanent fence we use right now. Still not cheap. But cheaper than trying to include the woods, which would have more brush, etc. 

For those of you who have a fair amount of land fenced to let the goats roam......what kind of fencing do you have? 

Probably what we'll do is use more of the electric fencing that we already use and just fence more of what they already have. Then rotate--since this fence you can move. I really wish we could use it around brush and trees, though. 

What do you all do?

Dee


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## mamajohnson (Nov 27, 2002)

rotation would be a good idea. We have woods fenced, about 2 acres, with 6 goats on it. Since it used to be a horse pen, it is just that roll field fence that is about 4' high, with a strand of electric on top. Goats have never gotten out, the dogs however are a different story. Dh thinks we could let the goats out on the weekend when we are working outside and they would basically stay with us, cause they follow us around the pen while we are working out there. I might get brave and let him try it. We have tons of woods to browse, and I dont think they would be able to wonder off our land if we were watching them.
Fence is expensive. The rolls are abou 75 dollars and up. We put it up one roll at a time.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

MamaDee said:


> For those of you who have a fair amount of land fenced to let the goats roam......what kind of fencing do you have?


Electric. Its the only way I could afford to fence in 70 acres. Also, I can put electric up all by me lonesome. I can't do that with any other fencing. The goats and dogs stay in and the goats have plenty of browse(when we get rain!  )


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## mamajohnson (Nov 27, 2002)

Emily,
do you keep pyrs in with electric? I can't seem to keep mine in anything!


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Yes, actually they do. But some of that depends on the dogs. Some are worse about wanting to patrol their *entire* patch rather than the patch they are *supposed* to patrol. My neutered male LGD wants to walk the perimeter fence twice a day then go back in with his herd. He wants to so bad that I leave him a hole he can go through. He is scared of electric and will not challenge it.
My intact breeding/working pair of Pyrs are totally content to stay behind the hotwire and they will only step out of it if I leave a gate open. And then only to sniff around then go back inside.
When my pups are young, they walk right under the fence without touching. By the time they are about 6 weeks old, they get their first taste of the shock and from then on they stay on the inside religiously!


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## mamajohnson (Nov 27, 2002)

That is probably what I have done wrong then!
Didn't get it hot till they are all grown (almost) I have one that is about 6 mo old, he was content to stay at least around the house, till mom got bored, jumped the fence and commensed her roaming. She will go miles and miles away. Dont know why she does this. I know there is a pond she likes to go cool in, but she seems to see the neighboring ranch as hers, will roam all over it, the tree farm nextdoor, our property, and several other joining places. We are lucky that not many people are out here, only 5 houses within about 5 mile radius.
Guess I can pump up the power and see if they will pay attention. I dont like them tied, sorta defeats their purpose, but at the same time I prefer they stay on OUR land! pyrs, gotta love em!


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## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

How far of spacing are you using with the electric fence ?

Thanks , Patty


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

I only feed my milker when she's on the milk stand, the others browse. I have 10 acres and 11 goats. It doesn't cost much to keep them. I have made a deal with a neighbor to supply me hay in exchange for me letting his cows graze my pasture. It works out well cause my goats get to eat over on his 40 acres in addition to my 10 acres. The cows and goats don't compete as they eat differently. I haven't had them thru the winter yet so it might get expensive then. 

I have several people who have ask to buy milk, but I need to take her to the vet and get her tested before I start selling it. I haven't made cheese yet, but hope to start soon. Hopefully I can sell milk and cheese to pay the feed bill over the winter. 

I get a lot more milk than we use. Right now I have several gallons frozen for when she dries up. I also hope to get a bottle calf and raise it on goat milk. 

Overall, I feel like the goats have not been a financial drain, but I haven't seen a profit from them either.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Now, we just had our first year in goats so we had alot of initial expenses. We now have nine goats--four are milking.
......................

Your aren't being fair to your milkers, when you have the cost of these other unproductive goats on their backs. When I visit most farms it's simple to see waste...pens full of wethers unbutchered...like rabbitts the minute you put in a feed pen to grain feed them, is the day you should get our of rabbitts, if you can't wean them and butcher them the same day, there is something wrong with the mangement of your doe...same with goats, weaned kids should be butchered, not grain fed out, they are not beef. 

Keeping does dry. A doe should be in milk from 12 months old until she dies at 12 years, minus the 50 days each year she is heavy bred and building up her stores and colostrum for her next kids and lacatation. 

Feeding fluff. Grass hay, pasture and browse when you have it, oats on the milkstand, minerals and enough alfalfa pellets to keep them in good shape and for their calcium and protein needs. Water, clean water, you have no idea how much this is overlooked. If you are lucky enough to live up north and have alfalfa hay, go for it!

If you aren't breeding goats than keep a young buck to breed the herd, it is certainly cheaper than keeping adult bucks. Use them and butcher them when the does are bred, purchasing or keeping bucklings out of your own herd the next spring to use the next fall.

Anything other than that is fluff, wasteful and costing you money. Not that it is bad, but don't complain about costs and then add expensive fat (BOSS) or energy (beet pulp) or carbs (sacked feeds) to an already excellent diet. Don't keep does who will not milk well for the 10 months they should be in milk, who don't give you saleable kids each year, who you can't breed at 7 or 8 months and who milk well at 12 to 13 months. Slow maturing lines cost you more than faster maturing lines, and honestly I think most of it is nutrition.

If you aren't going to sell registered goats, you simply have to watch your bottom line alot closer...you have to breed the does for milk, nothing more, not for improvement. It's the one time genetic diversity will come into play alot more, outcrossing each year to another breed, finding a niche of selling excellent milkers for the homestead. Learn to soap and make cheese to add to your sales. Vicki


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## dezeeuwgoats (Jan 12, 2006)

Vicki;

Do you feed simply oats on the milk stand - in other words, no special 'dairy goat mixed grains'? Are these rolled oats, or whole? 

Do you think that would affect my milk production if I switched? I feed Super Goat, which is a dairy goat grain, along with alfalfa pellets (free choice), browse, and Sweetlix Caprine Magnamilk. 

Occasionally, when I've run out of Supergoat and didn't want to run to the feedstore, I will 'make do' with rolled barley corn which is actually for the piggies. It doesn't happen very often though, or consistently. I'd love to be able to switch to oats - I can get those SO much cheaper!

sincerely;
Niki


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Patty0315 said:


> How far of spacing are you using with the electric fence ?
> 
> Thanks , Patty



Me?? I usually space the strands about 4"-5" apart for the first training period on goats that aren't used to electric. Then when they are trained and I'm putting up more fence I can get by with 6"-8" between strands. They don't test it once they are trained, dog or goat. The pasture where the puppies are born, the strands are about 6" apart. This is the fencing spacing I generally use.










Keep in mind that this is *very* hot fence. Not your run of the mill farmstore charger.


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## SherrieC (Aug 24, 2002)

Emily No fair! What brand of charger do you use? voltage?


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## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

My fencer is a 10 mile with about 2 miles of fence. Can we all say ouch !


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Do you feed simply oats on the milk stand - in other words, no special 'dairy goat mixed grains'? Are these rolled oats, or whole? 
.......................................

Whole oats. I used an allgrain for years but with it going up over $10 per 50, no way was I going to use it. 

Do you think that would affect my milk production if I switched?
..............................

Not feeding alfalfa is what effects milk production. Grain effects the looks of the animal and her ability to continue milking as much as she did in early lactation, right after the dry period the doe is usually in the best condition she will be in. So what is the oats doing? Adding the energy, carbs and calories she needs to stay in good flesh, a doe not in good flesh will milk less than her counterpart.

I feed Super Goat,
..............................

What is in it? Hopefully grains. So if you are already feeding her alfalfa in the forum of at least 3 pounds of alfalfa pellets each day or the equivalant of alfalfa hay, do you need all the unknown things in the supergoat? Byproducts? Do you think there is really any whole grain in it? And if your mineral is top notch and they are eating it why pay for more minerals in your supergoat? Most folks who rely on the sacked grains, are not feeding alfalfa, problem is goats don't utilize alot of the calcium carbonate and sorbate in those sacked feeds as calcium anyway...feed this and grass hay and it will not only effect milk but also her ability to triplet.

which is a dairy goat grain, along with alfalfa pellets (free choice), browse, and Sweetlix Caprine Magnamilk.
.................

Sounds like the only thing you need to improve is your milkstand grain. Vicki


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## dezeeuwgoats (Jan 12, 2006)

Interesting........thanks Vicki. I'll have to look into this some more. I'm beginning to dry everyone off in expectation of kidding at the end of October. With seventeen to freshen, I'd like to cut expenses (safely - without negative impact on the girls) in any way possible. The Supergoat grain has whole grains and a pelleted feed in it - you can visually see both in the mix. The price on it has gone up recently - it is now $12.50 a bag - yikes. All the breeders around here seem to think it is one of the better things to feed on the milkstand.

Of course, I'll be culling as well, as nine of those are first fresheners - culling is one of the best ways to improve my bottom line, and my herd's quality. It is just so difficult to do! Being new at this, I'm always afraid I'm going to cull someone who is really good due to misinterpreting immaturity, or my ignorance - so I end up hanging on to goats too long, or God forbid - culling an animal that would have added valuable genetics to my herd. And I tend to have a very good 'eye' for conformation with dogs and horses, but I've not had any 'dairy animal' experience.

I'm not talking bucklings here - I'm talking doelings. I really don't seem to have that problem with bucklings, and am proud to say that all of last years bucklings that didn't make the cut are in the freezer. Not as quickly as I'd like - due to circumstances out of my control. Not in time for my boys (human) not to tame the darn things, despite warnings of their eventual purpose.....A mistake that both husband and I are determined will NOT happen again.


Sincerely;
Niki


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

Your aren't being fair to your milkers, when you have the cost of these other unproductive goats on their backs. When I visit most farms it's simple to see waste..>>>

Oh, good. So, what I hope you're saying is that once we get our act together and get the rest of our girls bred and finally get our program going things will look up money wise. I do realize that we're in a sort of unique situation right now....we bought two does in milk b/c we wanted milk. I knew they would not meet their potential when they moved here. We took that on b/c the milk was important to us. The other dry goats we did not pay for. We got a deal from a friend for four goats...hard to pass up. We knew it would take some time to get them all going.  One is bred and the others will be shortly. So, hopefully that will help matters.

I'm curious what you said about bucks. Our FF just had a buck and we are planning on making him a freezer buck before he costs too much to feed and before he needs to be castrated. What about bucks you want to keep to breed and then butcher? If we kept him, we could only breed him to those he isn't relate to, right? With our nine girls, there are only three different lines. So we'd need more than one buck. Eventually, wouldn't you have to get an outside buck or wouldn't everyone be related to everyone somehow? 
You could save stud fees if you could use your own stock, but I'm unsure as to how that works.

And I also agree that grain is used sparingly and on the milkstand only. Our biggest expense is alfalfa. And don't you have to have that? If we run out of alfalfa/mix hay, they eat more of the bagged pellets. If we don't give them so much of the pellets they go crazy on the hay. And free choice pellets would cost even more. So you can't really cut there, can you?

Dee


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## mamajohnson (Nov 27, 2002)

Mamadee, I recently started pondering the buck issue myself. I have 4 girls, 1 buck, 2 wethers. my intention originally was to keep the 4 girls, and doelings and my 1 buck. All else freezer bound. 
Now I am thinking, can I really breed dad to daughters? I would only butcher any little bucklings, but what about the little doelings? would they be genetically messed up????
So, guess I am thinking like you. That brought me to consider an unrelated buck, that could be used on the daughters.
But, that is more expense. :shrug: 
I may be wrong, but I never feed my goats alfalfa. They have unlimited browse and grain on the milkstand only. (ok, I cheat sometimes and give them about 1 cup of grain in the evening)
so, if they HAVE to have alfalfa, I'm all goofed up!


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I have big time wonders on the grain issue also. They get grain only when I milk.
I buy 150# of goat feed, which is oats, corn, mineral pellets that have copper and selenium in them, then I buy 25# of BOSS, and 50# of alfalfa pellets, and mix it all together with DE.

I am new to goats, so I feed how the lady I got goats from said to, altered a bit by someones elses experience.

2 of my 4 hate the alfalfa pellets.
so all that costs about 50$. lasts maybe a month. that is 3 does in milk, and a grain theiving 3 month old doe.
how would feeding only oats or alfafla pellets be cheaper? wouldn't they get the same amount, pound wise?

I also wondered this...I read somewhere that millions of people in third world countries live off their milk goats, because they have nothing else.
with the nearest feed store, alfalfa patch, or dollar bill non-existant, or 1000 miles away, how do they function?
surely there are other options?


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

SherrieC said:


> Emily No fair! What brand of charger do you use? voltage?


I use a Taylor Brute 8 charger. Here are the specifics and where I bought it.

http://www.grasslandsupply.com/products.cfm?prodID=135

I *love* this charger! Oh and the company is great too.


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## Allan Mistler (Jun 1, 2004)

About ten years ago when we raised dairy goats (Nubians) rather than the Boer's we now raise, our goat herd paid for, not only themselves, but the rest of the menagerie.
We typically milked a dozen and seperated the milk. The skim milk as well as some whole milk was sold off the farm... the cream was made into cheese and then cheese cakes which were sold off the farm in addition to a contract sale we maintained with several restaraunts who purchased several each day. The buck kids were sold to a local ethnic butcher each spring for $50 a head and we sold doelings at $150 to interested parties. Believe it or not, we even managed to sell their manure.
Anyway, all of this was in combination with egg and meat sales from our other livestock, so we were a diversified farm. Since we kept accurate records for tax purposes, we can honestly say that our goats paid the grain costs for themselves, cows, pigs and turkeys as well as keeping us in fresh chevon and milk. That's all I could ask of any animal!


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## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

We got out of goats because here it's illegal to even give milk if it hasn't been milked in a commercial style parlour. A lot of people are milking or doing cheese (but not milking) because the requirements are so stringent and expensive - even just to sell for farmer's markets. There is a woman here who does "goats milk soap". She has alpines but doesn't actually milk them - although actually I think she could be guilty of severely misrepresenting her product with what she implies.

I find it frustrating because way back when I first had goats, the dairy board was going through some big changes and wanted exclusivity - that is, they didn't want any milk but cow's milk to be "dairy". Worked well for those of us with small operations and goats! And then someone clued in that we'll be making a lot more $$$ because we don't have to invest as much etc and the powers that be were worried about the cottage industry as competition. So, they included all milky mammals in "dairy" and now you have no real cottage cheese (excuse the pun!) or dairy industry anymore. 

I know a couple of people who do sell milk etc under the table. They trade really but that's still illegal and it's scary, you could lose everything doing that.

I'm generally a bit in favour of regulating some things; there are safety reasons, I get it. But this is another one of the "gone way too far" things and has become about market share - not safety. I worry that eggs will go the same way as well.

Anyway, that's the long story of how I left goats for sheep (but I still would love to have goats and so come here all of the time!).


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

If you are only keeping a buck to freshen your does, to perhaps keep a daughter or two, and selling the rest, than pedigree means nothing, he simply has to do his job...and keeping your own young buck to breed, even with the cost of raising him is less than purchase, or lease, when you bring your herd health into it.

Now if you are breeding goats along with selling or wanting house milk than of course you don't want to just use a buck out of a FF on your herd.

If you are selling registered breeding stock than the buck you have becomes all that much more important.


It's hard to answer questions on this forum because I show, sell milk, use my milk in soap and I sell breeding stock. Then my posts become fodder for the meat goat guys and fluff, and how awful everything is.

It's your herd, if you really need to cut costs than purchasing sacked feeds is never going to cut your costs. Sure it's grain, but what part of the grain, certainly not good clean oats that you can purchase yourself, and the pellet.....if you are feeding a good mineral than why do you need a mineral, soy etc...pellet in your grain? And why do you need to add the most expensive form of fat to your goats diet for house milk? Use soybean or even corn oil. If you can afford $17 per 50 for fat than go for it. You can do the exact same thing for $3 per month.

Dairy goats need calcium, because of mineral defficencies giving them calcium in only the forum of minerals simply gives you emaciated goats. It's the reason why folks pour grain into too skinny of does nursing two kids...without alfalfa in the form of hay or pellets, they simply don't build enough bone as a kid, or enough substance as an adult. Give less alfalfa hay and they will eat more alfalfa pellets because they are the same thing 

I wish everyone on the board with dairy goats would for one month keep track of costs, now that you are at the end of the month, how much did your program cost you, now pretend that your goats have to pay this bill, not your spouse or you working off the farm. There is nothing more fulfilling than a stay at home mom, who not only supplies milk and meat for her families table, but also does it with sales of her own breeding stock and milk/soap/meat. You can't take advice from gals whose husbands pay the bills for their hobby seriously if you do want to make a profit. 

If you do this right the sales of your kids should way beyond pay for the upkeep of your goats each year, so your milk/meat and anything else you do will actually be profit. Vicki


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

most folks forget to put the money away they would need to buy meat or milk in the store if they would not have the animals. 
feed cost is rising and so is milk in the store. ever thought about the cost of medical bills you are saving because of healthier life style?
if some one got into goats with the goal to get rich, got in for the wrong reason. 
if they are managed right they will always pay for them self and the health of you and your family. 
to operate a dairy needs a lot of optimism, enough money to start (which most people don't have) and patience.


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

I use mixed alfalfa/grass hay free choice, alfalfa pellets (not free choice, but working toward it), and a goat specific free choice mineral (Purina, I think--the only one available here that has copper). So can I substitute just plain oats for bagged grain on the milkstand? Right now I'm using Purina Goat chow--I know it's not the best but it's better than the alternative Sweet Feed we can get around here. Is just plain oats on the milk stand better than that?

Dee


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

in my opinion plain oats would be much better. have you looked at the feed tag from the goat chow? if not, here it is

INGREDIENTS:
Grain products, processed grain by-products, plant protein products, molasses products, calcium carbonate, roughage products, salt, forage products, dicalcium phosphate, soybean oil, phosphoric acid, sodium selenite, attapulgite clay, proprionic acid (a preservative), vitamin E supplement, tetrasodium pyrophosphate, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, sodium molybdate, cobalt carbonate, manganese sulfate, ferrous sulfate, ferrous carbonate, copper sulfate, zinc oxide, zinc sulfate, magnesium oxide, manganous oxide.


i do not want sweet feed, or even worse, processed grain by-products. 
with oats you know exactly what you are feeding them and if feeding alfa they really don't need more.


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## steff bugielski (Nov 10, 2003)

Ok one more question...
I have checked into the plain grains. I can get plain oats, steamed flaked barley and cracked corn. The cost is about the same as the Caprine challenger. I am also on the hunt for loose minerals. Now what I am at a loss for is the ratio of these grains and tell me about fat. Thay will also get grass hay free choice and alfalfa pellets.
Sorry two questions. Kids , do they get just calf manna and alflfa pellets no grains?
Thanks so much I am planning the switch just as soon as the feed store gets the minerals in.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

steff here at my place the kids are getting first and most goatmilk as long as they want, which is mostly six month. there is all the fat,calcium and protein they need. they have grass hay all the time (phosphor) alfa pellets topped with BOSS and calfmanna. i'm sure they would do as good without the last two things, as long as they get milk. 
i don't need the milk for sale, and dairies might need to do different in order to grow kids out. 
dry COB can be fed in the ratio 1-2-1. i don't feed corn and my girls are looking pretty good without it


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

ozark_jewels said:


> In my opinion, making money on milk goats is about the same way you make money on meat goats. With as little input for the most output that you can. By this I don't mean starving or neglecting their care. I mean letting them be goats by not pampering them too much.
> Keep their diets simple. As much browsing as possible. Dairy goats browse very well, its not a meat goat *thing*.
> Breed for healthy hardy goats so that you don't spend a fortune on medications.
> Feed a good mineral.
> ...



I have but one thing to say. You sound like me!!!!!! LOL.
What Happened?


The best feed for goats is Browse; Period. If you have limited land then you will have to buy feed(loose money). I'd suggest looking around for "cheep" grass or weedy grass hay. This is some times sold as "Mulch Hay" or Landscape hay. First thing is make sure it's fresh and green. If it's not don't take it if it's free.
Feed the hay free choice. This means as much as will be consumed. You want the feeder empty each day but just. Now for grain you can get fitting ration. You will find it much cheaper than goat feeds but is really the same. You should only give this when they are about to or just have given birth. It will help them come into milk. Once the goat is back in shape (1-2 weeks) revert to hay only. With this you should feed 1 goat about 1 50 pound bale a week And 15 lbs of fitting ration a year. This should give you about 2 kids and 150 gallons of milk.
So the feed requirements would be 
52 bales and 15 pounds of feed. Pretty cheap.

P.S.
Buying bagged goat feed is for rubes that have too much money. Goats should be the cheapest animals going.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> I wish everyone on the board with dairy goats would for one month keep track of costs, now that you are at the end of the month, how much did your program cost you, now pretend that your goats have to pay this bill, not your spouse or you working off the farm. There is nothing more fulfilling than a stay at home mom, who not only supplies milk and meat for her families table, but also does it with sales of her own breeding stock and milk/soap/meat. You can't take advice from gals whose husbands pay the bills for their hobby seriously if you do want to make a profit.
> 
> Vicki


Well let me see.......... About 1.00. I used about 2 pounds of corn to move the herd from one pasture to another. They will follow me across the road if I have corn.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Mine probably cost me 10 or 12 dollars this month in food.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

stanb999 said:


> I used about 2 pounds of corn to move the herd from one pasture to another. They will follow me across the road if I have corn.


if you have a bag full of candy, children will follow you too. 
the question remains, is it really healthy for them?  

a doe on my place cost about $40 per month or $480 per year. i do get on average about 26 gallon milk per month. if i would sell the milk and be tame with my price, and calculate only $8 per gallon (at whole foods or busch $16), it would give me $208 or $2496 per year in return for milk. 
i get on average two kids that are selling low price $300. add that to the income from the milk i'm at $3720. 
don't make me calculate my salary though 
even if you only take $4 per gallon, the price that you pay for dead grocery store milk, you still will have your return. 
in the calculation is not the meat price, goat meat here sells at $6.50 per pound.
if you ask me if it is worth to keep dairy goats, i will always answer with yes. will i get rich? of course not, but very happy and satisfied


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

with oats you know exactly what you are feeding them and if feeding alfa they really don't need more.>>>>

That's good to know....I remember researching this whole issue when we were deciding which grain to use--or if to formulate our own. As I remember it seemed a very complicated prospect to do your own mix. I looked up some past threads last night and came away with the same impression. If all goats need for grain is oats then why the complicated formulas and ratios about all the other things to add together in what amounts?

Do goats only really need oats, alfalfa and a mineral? Speaking of minerals does anyone know if Purina's goat mineral is o.k. It's the only one around here with copper.

Dee


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

susanne said:


> if you have a bag full of candy, children will follow you too.
> the question remains, is it really healthy for them?



Well I figure it doesn't matter as it's the only thing they have had besides browse since mid-MAY when the pasture came in. That was 2 pounds for 8 goats. Not 2 pounds each.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

* If all goats need for grain is oats then why the complicated formulas and ratios about all the other things to add together in what amounts?*

because it sells so good 

*Do goats only really need oats, alfalfa and a mineral? 
*

yes



look at the tag, what is in there? if you only see the purina in your feed store does not mean they could order something else?

here is a good site where you can compare different mineral salts.
http://www.saanendoah.com/mineralanalysis.html#swetlick
scroll down to the bottom of the page.

i think purina is a little bit expensive with 45% salt


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

stanb999 said:


> I have but one thing to say. You sound like me!!!!!! LOL.
> What Happened?


Hey Stan......I've always thought and said like that.....but I still disbudd and I still feed grain when I need to.......so we still have something to argue about.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Do goats only really need oats, alfalfa and a mineral? 

Yep! Or in my case, Barley, Alfalfa and mineral. 

Speaking of minerals does anyone know if Purina's goat mineral is o.k. It's the only one around here with copper.

I used it for two months once, and my goats all went downhill. They didn't like it at all. I never reccomend their goat mineral. Can you find a cattle mineral with a good amount of copper?? I am using Right Now Onyx Cattle mineral and like it very much. It has done much better things for my herd than many goat minerals...including Sweetlix.


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

Can you find a cattle mineral with a good amount of copper?? >>>

Well, I certainly believe you guys but it is weird. Why would a cattle mineral be better for a goat than a goat mineral? Why wouldn't Purina (made in St Louis--probably why its the goat mineral around these parts) make a goat mineral good for goats? I don't get it.

And I also believe that goats could do just as well on oats or barley for a grain as opposed to a pre-bagged grain. The thing is, we don't go through that much grain. The dry does and bucks don't need it and the babies don't get much and only from around 3 weeks old until weaning. The milkers are the only ones who really get grain and we don't have a ton of milkers. So I could switch to oats but it wouldn't save me that much. It's the alfalfa where we spend our money. I don't see a way to cut costs there. Alfalfa hay is more than grass hay and bagged alfalfa is more than bagged grain anyway. And.....the goats go through way more bagged alfalfa pellets than bags of grain. Does everybody need alfalfa or just the milkers?

Dee


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## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

My goats just do not like alfalfa pellets . Plain and simple. They do get second cut hay with lots of clover in it. I still have a few bags of alfalfa pellets left from the ton I bought.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

MamaDee said:


> Well, I certainly believe you guys but it is weird. Why would a cattle mineral be better for a goat than a goat mineral? Why wouldn't Purina (made in St Louis--probably why its the goat mineral around these parts) make a goat mineral good for goats? I don't get it.


I have never found a Purina goat product that I liked. Not to mention its all overpriced(because its a big name, I guess). 
There hasn't really been that much research done on goats and they are still very much a sideline *if* big companies even consider them at all. People are just now starting to get it, that copper is SO important for optimum production and health in goats. For many years most people thought they were like sheep and shouldn't get extra copper at all. I still have people tell me like its a fact that I will kill my goats feeding them a high copper mineral like I do. Well, they ain't dead.  
Cattle have been BIG for decades. Much research has been done on them and their mineral needs. (Most)Cattle people understand about good minerals giving them better healthier calves in a timelier fashion. Goat people are just trying to catch up. So there are many cattle minerals out there that meet goat needs much better than many goat minerals.
Purina goat mineral is extremely high salt......which means they don't get enough of the minerals they need. Not to mention its *expensive* salt!


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Patty0315 said:


> My goats just do not like alfalfa pellets . Plain and simple. They do get second cut hay with lots of clover in it. I still have a few bags of alfalfa pellets left from the ton I bought.


I always try a bag out before I buy from a different source. Not all alfalfa pellets are created equal and several places near here carry alfalfa pellets that my goats just won't eat.
Its just like hay, I always try a bale before I buy a truck load. Just because it says alfalfa hay and costs $200 a ton.....doesn't mean its good stuff unfortunately.
I'd make a guess that your does might like the alfalfa pellets from a better source. :shrug:


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

Dee if it would not be too far for you, i would like to invite you to my farm and have a look at my animals. after that you might understand better .
i do feed the alfa to all my animals including kids and bucks.
alfa and grain is not exchangeable.


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