# Increase in suicide rate.



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I don't think this is surprising. With energy poverty coming fast I expect higher suicide rates to become normal. In the past few weeks I've heard several stories of low income workers being victimized by Obamacare. They can't afford the costs of the forced medical care and are considering paying the fine instead.

"Suicide in the United States has surged to the highest levels in nearly 30 years, a federal data analysis has found, with increases in every age group except older adults. The rise was particularly steep for women. It was also substantial among middle-aged Americans, sending a signal of deep anguish from a group whose suicide rates had been stable or falling since the 1950s."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/22/health/us-suicide-rate-surges-to-a-30-year-high.html?_r=2


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## Bubba1358 (Nov 6, 2013)

Very, very sad indeed. What strikes me is the graph:










... compared next to this graph:










I believe the two are related. I'd called it a "spriritual poverty" instead of an "energy poverty."


*** Note: The graph from the article shows the same trajectory as the image I posted about suicide rates. However, the text didn't copy from the article's graph, so I got a different image.


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## PrincessFerf (Apr 25, 2008)

I am a firm believer that the movement away from the church (regardless of denomination or religious belief) has harmed society as a whole.


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## Ana Bluebird (Dec 8, 2002)

I know personally two people that have committed suicide in the last six months, both were elderly and in poor health. They had good health care and financially doing okay, but their hopes of getting better were rather slim. I'm sure they just wanted it to be over, both used hand guns. Sad stories in these suicides.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Wasn't one of Obama's buzz words "Hope"?

I guess that panned out about as well as his other promises.:flame:


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Darren said:


> I don't think this is surprising. With energy poverty coming fast I expect higher suicide rates to become normal.


 So someone can't pay their electric bill and kills themself? Is that happening a lot where you're at?? Maybe they should have used the money they saved from $2 gasoline.
And health insurance premiums have been steadily rising for decades, really jumping up in the early 2000's. Pretty tough to blame Obamacare for that one, but I am sure some will find a way.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

greg273 said:


> So someone can't pay their electric bill and kills themself? Is that happening a lot where you're at?? Maybe they should have used the money they saved from $2 gasoline.
> And health insurance premiums have been steadily rising for decades, really jumping up in the early 2000's. Pretty tough to blame Obamacare for that one, but I am sure some will find a way.


You used to have the option of not having insurance. See what happened there? Keep up.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

greg273 said:


> So someone can't pay their electric bill and kills themself? Is that happening a lot where you're at?? Maybe they should have used the money they saved from $2 gasoline.
> And health insurance premiums have been steadily rising for decades, really jumping up in the early 2000's. Pretty tough to blame Obamacare for that one, but I am sure some will find a way.


A fairly flippant response to a serious issue many face. Poor people often live in some of the worst insulated homes and are particularly vulnerable to price spikes in their utilities. Even if it is not a problem you face, it is a problem many do. My municipal utilities, especially electric charges can swing $100 in a month without a lot of rhyme or reason because of peak use fees the city incurs that they pass onto customers. It is just an annoyance to me, but for many people, especially seniors, it can be a budget busting happening. It has also been a complaint for local manufacturers who have discussed they are not sure how much longer they will be staying in the area if the city doesn't do something about the electric rates.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Declan said:


> A fairly flippant response to a serious issue many face. Poor people often live in some of the worst insulated homes and are particularly vulnerable to price spikes in their utilities. .


 Avg. electric rates went from about 9cents a KWH to around 12cents a KWH in the past 15 years. If that is 'skyrocketing' energy prices, thats one of the weakest 'skyrockets' I've ever seen.
http://www.eia.gov/electricity/data/browser/#/topic/7?geo=g&agg=0,1&endsec=vg
I don't think that small rise explains any rise in suicide. Who knows though, lots of factors to consider... Modern life can be alienating to a lot of people. People are isolated, families are scattered and broken, people work longer for less money.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

thericeguy said:


> You used to have the option of not having insurance. See what happened there? Keep up.


 That has nothing to do with the fact that premiums have been steadily rising for decades, long before O-care. According to this data, they more than DOUBLED in the past 15 years. 










Oddly enough, even with O-care, prices increased LESS last year than any time since 96. Im not in favor of govt. mandated insurance, but prices did increase at the lowest pace in 20 years last year. 


> After plan design changes and vendor negotiations, the average health care rate increase for mid-size and large companies was 3.2 percent in 2015, marking the lowest rate increase since 1996, according to a new analysis by Aon.


 http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2015/11/12/388800.htm


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

I believe suicide rate is on the increase because so msny people are doing it and more coverage of it. It plants seeds of doubt in other people's minds. Not to mention we glorify celebrities who do it. We honor many others who do it as well. So people think if I do it then they will be honored and remembered. When Robin Williams did it. The suicide rate jump dramatically that week. People said if he can't be happy I never will be. Then America glorified his death. And by doing so they told those hurting is ok to do it as well. So they take a pain they have felt and pass it on to loved ones to carry forever. Nobody wins in a suicide.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

greg273 said:


> Avg. electric rates went from about 9cents a KWH to around 12cents a KWH in the past 15 years. If that is 'skyrocketing' energy prices, thats one of the weakest 'skyrockets' I've ever seen.
> http://www.eia.gov/electricity/data/browser/#/topic/7?geo=g&agg=0,1&endsec=vg
> I don't think that small rise explains any rise in suicide. Who knows though, lots of factors to consider... Modern life can be alienating to a lot of people. People are isolated, families are scattered and broken, people work longer for less money.


Average US rates is not how peak demand costs work, but I am not the one claiming people kill themselves over it. Here is an article on the issue I was speaking to if you so desire, or not, to read it: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2002/07/util-j12.html


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Read the side effects on some of your meds--even the "benign" ones. A lot of the anti-psychotics and mood stabilizers enhance thoughts of suicide.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

I for one think assisted suicide should be legal. If I were in Robin William's shoes, I would have done the same thing. I love life, I'm not depressed, but I also have no intention of ever ending up in a nursing home if I can help it. Because of our laws and culture, I will most likely have to take my life sooner than I would if I could trust the medical establishment to honor my requests. My brother is now suffering from Alzeheimers and there is no way I would want to go through that or put my family through that. It's genetic and I may very well be coming down with it already, who knows. I just pray that I still have enough mind to realize if I do head down that road so I can end it before I lose the ability to end it for myself.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

I think there are many reasons the suicide rate is rising, especially among women. For decades the govt. has replaced the importance of family and societal connections with a promise of unlimited potential in the work world. Nothing wrong with the concept of employment goals/opportunities but if a woman has a fulltime job, no matter in what specific career, the stresses of trying to juggle a family, personal me-times and community contributions gets to be a logistical nightmare. 

Women are realizing that other women can be as cut throat as the male gender in the work world. (Maybe more so...) They are sadly becoming aware that daycare can take a majority of their salaries and there is no guarantee that their children will be in safe surroundings either in daycare or in higher education. 

And older women, such as myself, are reminded daily on media and through relationships, that our time has past and we are not relevant. 

I am grateful that I believe in God and that there is more than the current attitudes that prevail in our world. That doesn't mean that every church is an improvement over staying home and reading the Bible and trying to make the world a better place in your own little space. It just means that I don't have to ask "is that all there is?".


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Miss Kay said:


> I for one think assisted suicide should be legal. If I were in Robin William's shoes, I would have done the same thing. I love life, I'm not depressed, but I also have no intention of ever ending up in a nursing home if I can help it. Because of our laws and culture, I will most likely have to take my life sooner than I would if I could trust the medical establishment to honor my requests. My brother is now suffering from Alzeheimers and there is no way I would want to go through that or put my family through that. It's genetic and I may very well be coming down with it already, who knows. I just pray that I still have enough mind to realize if I do head down that road so I can end it before I lose the ability to end it for myself.


There are promising developments in treating Alzheimers. It's worth keeping an eye on. This is one.

http://www.collective-evolution.com...one-week-in-mice-using-new-protein-injection/


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Remember the saying "It's the economy, stupid!"? Obama did get one thing right. He's good at killing people.

http://www.investors.com/politics/on-the-right/betsy-mccaughey-obamas-killer-economy/


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

I see several reasons.

One, the decline of the family. The first and most important support base is the family. When you don't have a family you have no one to see you are depressed, you have no one to talk to about your problems and most important you have no one you feel would truly miss you when you are gone.

Two, the lowering of the value of life. From abortion to legal authorized doctor murder (aka assisted suicide) the signal sent is; life has no value if you don't like it you can just get rid of it.

Three, the move away from religion (different than church). If you think there is nothing but this life and this life sucks then why not just end it?

Four, the move away from church. Church should be the second most important support base. People in your church should be your extended family. You should be able to turn to them for help. If you do not have that you don't have someone to help you through the dark periods.

Five, the move from real friends to cyber friends. Real friends know you, they can tell when you are "not yourself" based on your speech and actions. Good friends will check in on you when they haven't heard from you in a while. Cyber friends can't do this. Also you can not feel personally connected with cyber friends the way you can with real ones.


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

IMO, you can sum it up with one phrase...a lack of hope.

If I imagine what goes through the mind of someone who has truly made the choice to end his/her life, the thought of "looking down the road" and seeing nothing more than "today" is horrifying...


 "I'm never going to be anything more than I am today"
 "I'm never going to be happier than I am today"
 "I'm never going to feel less pain that what I feel today"
 "I'm never going to have anything more than what I have today"
"I'm never going to live in a world that is better than it is today"
"I'm never going to feel less alone than I feel today"
The basic concept being "I'm never going to..."

A lack of hope is a terrible thing.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

It is the ultimate personal decision.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

It is a decision that leaves family and friends to deal with the aftermath for the rest of their lives. It is the ultimate selfish decision...


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

I can see where it can be looked at that way. If the final arrangements are made and paid for in advance, how is it any different to deal with than a sudden death by other means?
My sons are grown. I choose to live my life on my terms, not by what others think is acceptable.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Miss Kay said:


> I for one think assisted suicide should be legal. If I were in Robin William's shoes, I would have done the same thing. I love life, I'm not depressed, but I also have no intention of ever ending up in a nursing home if I can help it. Because of our laws and culture, I will most likely have to take my life sooner than I would if I could trust the medical establishment to honor my requests. My brother is now suffering from Alzeheimers and there is no way I would want to go through that or put my family through that. It's genetic and I may very well be coming down with it already, who knows. I just pray that I still have enough mind to realize if I do head down that road so I can end it before I lose the ability to end it for myself.


Everyone should have the option of assisted suicide.


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## nyhunter (Nov 14, 2014)

Its too bad so many see suicide as an exceptable way to deal with a problem. I personally know 7 ppl who killed themselves and know of several more. These were all ppl who had lots to live for but were too selfish and chose a permanet "solution" to a temporary problem.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

People that commit suicide do what they feel is right for them. It's no one else's business, no one knows that that person is experiencing, and no one else has the right to judge them, in my opinion.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> People that commit suicide do what they feel is right for them. It's no one else's business, no one knows that that person is experiencing, and no one else has the right to judge them, in my opinion.


Very true. Look at all the people associated with the Clintons that killed themselves.

As far as no one has a right to judge a suicide, I question that.
In our community there was a man who struggled along, fell on hard times, had a major disappointment and took his own life. Now you say not to judge him, but this selfish SOB left behind a wife and four young kids. Five years later the oldest boy could not handle what his father did and ended his life the same way.
How does that work into your opinion?

If he was dying of cancer and wanted to bring on the inevitable a bit sooner I'd understand.
But this rectal orifice not only destroyed his life over a disappointment but took five other lives with him. I have a hard time rationalising this.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

JJ Grandits said:


> Very true. Look at all the people associated with the Clintons that killed themselves.
> 
> As far as no one has a right to judge a suicide, I question that.
> In our community there was a man who struggled along, fell on hard times, had a major disappointment and took his own life. Now you say not to judge him, but this selfish *SOB* left behind a wife and four young kids. Five years later the oldest boy could not handle what his father did and ended his life the same way.
> ...


Do you judge the guy that runs off with another woman and leaves behind a wife and 4 young kids as harshly as you judged the guy that committed suicide?

And if you really read my post it says "in my opinion". That means you don't have to agree with my statement, but that I believe it to be true.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

JJ Grandits said:


> As far as no one has a right to judge a suicide, I question that.
> In our community there was a man who struggled along, fell on hard times, had a major disappointment and took his own life. Now you say not to judge him, but this selfish SOB left behind a wife and four young kids. Five years later the oldest boy could not handle what his father did and ended his life the same way.
> How does that work into your opinion?
> 
> ...


I don't see how this is any of your concern unless it involved you directly, did you offer some type of help to his family....did you?


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Bubba1358 said:


> Very, very sad indeed. What strikes me is the graph:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh geez! The world temperature has been going up too; I could show a graph like that and pretend temperatures were causing suicide. You should try some of the Baptist churches around here. You'll leave wondering if you're actually Saved and just how hot Hell is. Correlation doesn't = causation.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Coming of age in the '60's I bought into the philosophy "it's my life and I can do what I want". I was foolishly of the mindset that my personal decisions were completely mine to make and had little affect on the family, friends and the community around me. Let me tell you, after almost 50 yrs. of living as an adult I found out that was a juvenile and self-serving attitude.

The next time you see a rash of suicides like what happened in Canada, take a minute and think. How many may have been influenced by one another, even if the people had no direct relationships? I did not research the ages of the people but I bet whether young or old or in between they left family and friends who bitterly wish they would have chosen another option to deal with their pain.

Life is a gift with no guarantees. It is to be cherished and valued. Maybe that concept is getting outmoded in 2016 but it will abandoned at great cost to both the people who advocate suicide as a personal freedom and the other folks who don't.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> People that commit suicide do what they feel is right for them. It's no one else's business, no one knows that that person is experiencing, and no one else has the right to judge them, in my opinion.


Ever talked with family members of those who did it? It's a life long hell of questions. Your approach is giving them the appearance its ok and nobody else is affected. And that there is no repercussions for their actions. It's that dangerous mentality that is helping people kill themselves.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

It is selfish and dangerous and hurts so many more than themselves and it's carrying over to children. Recently a 10 and 12 year old killed themselves. People who think it's none of your business and dont judge should be ashamed of themselves. They should be judged abs judged harshly to show this is not acceptable. It's mainly kids and young adults killing themselves.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Vahomesteaders said:


> Ever talked with family members of those who did it? It's a life long hell of questions. Your approach is giving them the appearance its ok and nobody else is affected. And that there is no repercussions for their actions. It's that dangerous mentality that is helping people kill themselves.


Perhaps we should be more understanding of people instead of writing them off as mentally ill. Blaming suicide victims for their actions is about as low as you can go. Yes, absolutely the person should have found a better option of dealing with their pain. Yes, it's extremely hard on family members - possibly it could even induce more suicides! We need to work on effective solutions of preventing suicides. We could start with increased funding for mental facilities and psychiatry. Oh, wait, we don't like taxes or government, so we'll just let everyone drat out on their own. Bah.


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

Maybe it is selfish for those remaining after a suicide to want them to live with the pain (physical or emotional) that they are enduring.
Did your family bring you into existence so they could rule your lives and make you live under unbelievable situations and judge you because they "made" you.
If you believe in individual free will to do what is in their own best interest, you need to take out what other people feel after the fact.
The idea that suicide is not appropriate is portrayed through religion, not by individual freedom and the ability to make one's own decisions.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Heritagefarm said:


> Perhaps we should be more understanding of people instead of writing them off as mentally ill. Blaming suicide victims for their actions is about as low as you can go. Yes, absolutely the person should have found a better option of dealing with their pain. Yes, it's extremely hard on family members - possibly it could even induce more suicides! We need to work on effective solutions of preventing suicides. We could start with increased funding for mental facilities and psychiatry. Oh, wait, we don't like taxes or government, so we'll just let everyone drat out on their own. Bah.


Many suicides are spur of the moment in moments of weakness and anger . People losing jobs and homes, marriages failed, guys or gals dumped, drunken or drug related stoopers. Not all who do it are mentally ill. Just lost hope. Many mentally ill people live their whole lives without doing it. Sadness and fear are not mental illnesses. They are emotions that at times are healthy. Saying all who do it have a mental illness is a slap in the face of those who live with life long mental illness. I had a very good friend who never had any mental illness. His father died and he killed himself. Out of the blue. We talked about everything. He helped me through the death if my mother just months before. He got drunk one night right after his father died and killed himself. In Fairfax County va a 10 year old killed themselves overt parents divorce. How sad is that?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

anniew said:


> Maybe it is selfish for those remaining after a suicide to want them to live with the pain (physical or emotional) that they are enduring.
> Did your family bring you into existence so they could rule your lives and make you live under unbelievable situations and judge you because they "made" you.
> If you believe in individual free will to do what is in their own best interest, you need to take out what other people feel after the fact.
> The idea that suicide is not appropriate is portrayed through religion, not by individual freedom and the ability to make one's own decisions.


Thank you for such a thoughtful post.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

anniew said:


> Maybe it is selfish for those remaining after a suicide to want them to live with the pain (physical or emotional) that they are enduring.
> Did your family bring you into existence so they could rule your lives and make you live under unbelievable situations and judge you because they "made" you.
> If you believe in individual free will to do what is in their own best interest, you need to take out what other people feel after the fact.
> The idea that suicide is not appropriate is portrayed through religion, not by individual freedom and the ability to make one's own decisions.


If they are mentally ill how can they make the best decision for themselves? You ought to read some suicide survival stories. Many regretted it emediatly. Like several who jumped off the golden gate bridge. They emediatly realized their mistake. Nobody should advocate suicide as an option. Again, it goes back to what are we teaching young people and children.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

I only advocate rational people be able to make choices on their own without "control" from Gov. or Religious groups or by people who think they know what is best.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Vahomesteaders said:


> Many suicides are spur of the moment in moments of weakness and anger . People losing jobs and homes, marriages failed, guys or gals dumped, drunken or drug related stoopers. Not all who do it are mentally ill. Just lost hope. Many mentally ill people live their whole lives without doing it. Sadness and fear are not mental illnesses. They are emotions that at times are healthy. Saying all who do it have a mental illness is a slap in the face of those who live with life long mental illness. I had a very good friend who never had any mental illness. His father died and he killed himself. Out of the blue. We talked about everything. He helped me through the death if my mother just months before. He got drunk one night right after his father died and killed himself. In Fairfax County va a 10 year old killed themselves overt parents divorce. How sad is that?


I'm sorry you had to go through that. I've also had suicidal family memebers. One called the suicide hotline. Got put on hold for 5 minutes. 

To clarify, I never said they had a mental illness. It's like you said, a spur of the moment thing.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> I don't see how this is any of your concern unless it involved you directly, did you offer some type of help to his family....did you?


Yes. 

But even if we did not personally know them it does concern me. Suicide is the ultimate selfish act. There is no comparison between a husband who runs off on his family and one who takes his own life.
If you can't understand that then I am concerned for you too.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

The negative judgement you have portrayed, comes back to you to experience. Then it is your problem to deal with.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

JJ Grandits said:


> Yes.
> 
> But even if we did not personally know them it does concern me. Suicide is the ultimate selfish act. There is no comparison between a husband who runs off on his family and one who takes his own life.
> If you can't understand that then I am concerned for you too.


Oh gosh, I just feel all warm and fuzzy now. I guessing it takes a lot of fall to kill yourself, possibly because these people feel absolutely worthless. You're not very understanding.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

Here in the state of Washington, assisted suicide is legal. It is called the Death With Dignity Act. Each year, a report is issued providing some statistics. In 2014, 176 people were issued the medication. The statistics show the breakdown of those 176 people in several different ways. 

Here is the 2014 report. You might find it insightful.

http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/Pubs/422-109-DeathWithDignityAct2014.pdf


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

JJ Grandits said:


> Yes.
> 
> But even if we did not personally know them it does concern me. Suicide is the ultimate selfish act. There is no comparison between a husband who runs off on his family and one who takes his own life.
> If you can't understand that then I am concerned for you too.


Why? One man had so much pain (of whatever kind) that all he could do was end it. The other man thought that another woman was more important than his wife and four young kids. 

In both cases the husband left his family, right? Caused heartache to every one of them. I think the man that left them for another woman is the more selfish of the two, he left for his own pleasure. The man that committed suicide left because he felt he had no other choice.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why? One man had so much pain (of whatever kind) that all he could do was end it. The other man thought that another woman was more important than his wife and four young kids.
> 
> In both cases the husband left his family, right? Caused heartache to every one of them. I think the man that left them for another woman is the more selfish of the two, he left for his own pleasure. The man that committed suicide left because he felt he had no other choice.


Accept the man who left can change and still be in his children's life and his grandchildren lives. Possibly even reconcile with his wife and the pain can end. The other man's family pain will never end. At every event and life milestone it will be remembered. It's silly to even try to compare the two.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Vahomesteaders said:


> Accept the man who left can change and still be in his children's life and his grandchildren lives. Possibly even reconcile with his wife and the pain can end. The other man's family pain will never end. At every event and life milestone it will be remembered. It's silly to even try to compare the two.


Many suicide victims feel the world would be better without them. They feel people hate them or dislike them for their choices. You seem to be helping build that notion.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> People that commit suicide do what they feel is right for them. It's no one else's business, no one knows that that person is experiencing, and no one else has the right to judge them, in my opinion.


After seeing what is left after someone commits suicide I have to agree that it is selfish and even cowardly. 

Ever dealt with someone with a family member with cancer or ALS or parkinson's or any such disease? Would you say the disease only affected the person with it? If not how in the world can you even begin to think suicide only affects the dead and therefore is no one else's business?

Do you know anyone who has found a family member after he has killed himself? 

Do you think you could ever get the image of your son with his brains spread on his bedroom wall out of your mind? Isn't that a nice image for a son to leave his mother?

Do you think you would spend the rest of your life wondering if, just if you had done something differently they would not have felt the need to kill themselves?

What if you were a child and your mother had to tell you that your father chose to kill himself, might not you wonder if it was something you did to drive him to do it?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> Perhaps we should be more understanding of people instead of writing them off as mentally ill. Blaming suicide victims for their actions is about as low as you can go. Yes, absolutely the person should have found a better option of dealing with their pain. Yes, it's extremely hard on family members - possibly it could even induce more suicides! We need to work on effective solutions of preventing suicides. We could start with increased funding for mental facilities and psychiatry. Oh, wait, we don't like taxes or government, so we'll just let everyone drat out on their own. Bah.


Like it or not, it is not the government's job to protect you, me or any other individual from ourselves.


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## mustangglp (Jul 7, 2015)

greg273 said:


> So someone can't pay their electric bill and kills themself? Is that happening a lot where you're at?? Maybe they should have used the money they saved from $2 gasoline.
> And health insurance premiums have been steadily rising for decades, really jumping up in the early 2000's. Pretty tough to blame Obamacare for that one, but I am sure some will find a way.


Mine and my wife's has insurance has skyrocketed in the last few years were not on Obama Care if you are on Obama care hold on to your shirt you are in for a big increase next year!
Obama care has done nothing to lower prices .


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

watcher said:


> Like it or not, it is not the government's job to protect you, me or any other individual from ourselves.


Yep. That's why we should just throw everyone the crapper. Your above statement shows you know absolutely nothing about how to care about a suicide victim. Here's some basics:

http://www.helpguide.org/articles/s...revention-helping-someone-who-is-suicidal.htm

Also details how you can recognize you signs. Your apathy is appalling.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Heritagefarm said:


> Many suicide victims feel the world would be better without them. They feel people hate them or dislike them for their choices. You seem to be helping build that notion.


Nobody is going around saying they hate me because I killed myself. So nobody is judging their choices before death. But people should know those choices affect everyone. You said it yourself. They think the world is better off without them. So they are taking into consideration those around them. But coming to the wrong conclusion. We need to let them know it is not the right conclusion and that the pain they leave is very real.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> Yep. That's why we should just throw everyone the crapper. Your above statement shows you know absolutely nothing about how to care about a suicide victim. Here's some basics:
> 
> http://www.helpguide.org/articles/s...revention-helping-someone-who-is-suicidal.htm
> 
> Also details how you can recognize you signs. Your apathy is appalling.


Your statement goes to show you know nothing about me and have clearly not read many of my 15,000+ post here. I have been helping people with my time and my money probably when you were still wearing diapers, if not before you were even born. Have you ever had to go to someone's home and try to calm them down after their son had blew his brains all over his bedroom wall? I have. Have you ever had a family member kill themselves? I have. Ever been called at 2 a.m. by the parents of a teenaged girl and asked to go to the ER to sit with her until they could find a slot in a mental health facility after she had slit her wrist because the girl had said she never wanted to see the parents again? This after you had spend months trying to help her get her live in order. I have. I have posted here about how I have fought depression for decades so I know what's its like to sit in a dark room and think life isn't worth living. I've done all that and more in my decades of life. And I have the mental scars and nightmares to prove it.

Unless you have done these things do not dare to tell me I'm apathetic about suicide.

But the fact still stands, its NOT the government's job to protect you from yourself. Its job is to protect you from others.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Heritagefarm said:


> Oh gosh, I just feel all warm and fuzzy now. I guessing it takes a lot of fall to kill yourself, possibly because these people feel absolutely worthless. You're not very understanding.


Having someone kill themselves makes you feel all warm and fuzzy?

You need help man.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

JJ Grandits said:


> Having someone kill themselves makes you feel all warm and fuzzy?
> 
> You need help man.


I was being sarcastic that your comment made me feel warm and fuzzy, since you said suicide was selfish.



Vahomesteaders said:


> Nobody is going around saying they hate me because I killed myself. So nobody is judging their choices before death. But people should know those choices affect everyone. You said it yourself. They think the world is better off without them. So they are taking into consideration those around them. But coming to the wrong conclusion. We need to let them know it is not the right conclusion and that the pain they leave is very real.


Sounds good. Helping suicidal people is what's necessary. Condemning them is what's not helpful.



watcher said:


> Your statement goes to show you know nothing about me and have clearly not read many of my 15,000+ post here. I have been helping people with my time and my money probably when you were still wearing diapers, if not before you were even born. Have you ever had to go to someone's home and try to calm them down after their son had blew his brains all over his bedroom wall? I have. Have you ever had a family member kill themselves? I have. Ever been called at 2 a.m. by the parents of a teenaged girl and asked to go to the ER to sit with her until they could find a slot in a mental health facility after she had slit her wrist because the girl had said she never wanted to see the parents again? This after you had spend months trying to help her get her live in order. I have. I have posted here about how I have fought depression for decades so I know what's its like to sit in a dark room and think life isn't worth living. I've done all that and more in my decades of life. And I have the mental scars and nightmares to prove it.
> 
> Unless you have done these things do not dare to tell me I'm apathetic about suicide.
> 
> But the fact still stands, its NOT the government's job to protect you from yourself. Its job is to protect you from others.


Sorry. I didn't realize you'd actually been involved in the those situations. It just seemed to be that calling it a selfish act was casting a light on suicide victims that indicated they were bad, which just piles on the guilt, IMO. But I rest my case.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> Sorry. I didn't realize you'd actually been involved in the those situations. It just seemed to be that calling it a selfish act was casting a light on suicide victims that indicated they were bad, which just piles on the guilt, IMO. But I rest my case.


No problem, I don't know what you have seen in your life either.

But having dealt with things like this I will restate that suicide is a selfish, cowardly and/or vindictive act.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

There are those of a school of thought that says everything is predetermined in life, where all things are agreed upon in life. Is it still selfish or a lesson or experience of life?
Keeping in mind that we are spirits first, inside a temporary body.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> There are those of a school of thought that says everything is predetermined in life, where all things are agreed upon in life. Is it still selfish or a lesson or experience of life?
> Keeping in mind that we are spirits first, inside a temporary body.


If your talking from a spiritual standpoint then you have to look at the bible. One of the commandments are not to kill. Translated murder or take innocent life. Your life included. You can't ask to be forgiven once you have killed yourself. It also says many are the afflictions of the righteous and blessed are they who endure to the end and fight the good fight despite the thorn of the flesh. So suicide does not jive with scripture nor should it jive with morality.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

Scripture is mostly traditions of man and isn't the tried and true rulebook of the majority of people though.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> Scripture is mostly traditions of man and isn't the tried and true rulebook of the majority of people though.


Well the bible has 66 books, written by 40 different authors, over 1500 years, in 3 different languages, written on 3 different continents. And it all has the same theme that lines up perfectly. Most of the authors lived in different times and never collaborated. And didn't have the previous authors writings to copy yet all the stories line up and the theme lines up. So when you can go to your local library and find 66 books written by 40 different authors in 3 different languages on 3 different continents over a 1500 year spand, and they all line up to the exact same theme and works, maybe I will believe it's not God's inspired word that is supernatural. This collection of books shares a common storyline the creation, fall, and redemption of Godâs people; a common theme Godâs universal love for all of humanity; and a common message, salvation is available to all who repent of their sins and commit to following God with all of their heart, soul, mind and strength. These 66 books all line up. No other 66 books on the earth could do that. It is impossible.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

Yes, it still isn't all conclusive though. The N.T. was written by memory hundreds of years after The Christs Death. Has been Re Translated hundreds of times, not to mention being Bastardised by King James Translators and Scribes. Then the Early Church fathers couldn't
decide which of the Books should even be Canonized...some were added. some left out.I know all about it. So and your point is?


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

My point is this. If you believe in an all powerful all living and loving God you have to know he is not going to let his word be basterdized. The Scriptures are very sacred to God and he is going to inspire men to pass them down accuratly.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

I have always said, when I get to heaven I am making a B-line to the Man so I can hear the whole and complete story straight from the horses mouth. The Bible tells me everything I need to know. It does not tell me everything. I believe He is the greatest storyteller never born.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

Vahomesteaders said:


> My point is this. If you believe in an all powerful all living and loving God you have to know he is not going to let his word be basterdized. The Scriptures are very sacred to God and he is going to inspire men to pass them down accuratly.


Manuscript errors resulting in contradictions in the KJV.

Compare the following passages:

2 Kings 24:8 with 2 Chronicles 36:9 
Ezra 2:5 with Nehemiah 7:10 
Ezra 2:69 with Nehemiah 7:70-72 
1 Kings 7:16 with 2 Kings 25:17 
2 Samuel 8:13 with 1 Chronicles 18:12 
1 Samuel 18:25, 27 with 2 Samuel 3:14 
2 Samuel 8:4 with 1 Chronicles 18:41 
Kings 6:2 with 2 Chronicles 3:4 
1 Kings 9:23 with 2 Chronicles 8:10 
2 Samuel 23:8 with 1 Chronicles 11:11 
1 Kings 4:26 with 2 Chronicles 9:25

I can keep going..I'm not 7 years old..


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> Manuscript errors resulting in contradictions in the KJV.
> 
> Compare the following passages:
> 
> ...


All copying errors on a word for some of them and total misunderstanding on others like the Ezra 2 and 5. There are 5 different arah mentioned in the bible. Many common names are in the bible used many times. And error in writing 18 and 8. Or trying to compare different offerings from different chiefs as misinterpreted? They are speaking of total different people. There are some copy errors on a word here and there but not entire scriptures or passages. Does that deminish God's word? Nothing about salvation is misinterpreted. Nor is anything relating to the commandments of God. That's saying that man out foxed God and messed with his word. Not going to happen. It goes back to discernment and understanding. God will give it to you if you ask.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

But I thought God wouldn't allow men to do this? Would you like to discuss the history of hell ?

You keep on believing what you will.


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## LuLuToo (Dec 19, 2015)

I don't believe that most who commit suicide are doing it for selfish reasons. They do it b/c they don't believe they have a better way out of their troubles and death often seems like the best option. Many have life insurance and may feel their families will be better off financially. If the person is having interpersonal/ relationship problems, they may feel their families will be better off without them around to 'make life a living hell' for everyone else. Unless one has some experience with suicide or has been on the brink of suicide, I doubt that one can begin to understand the thought process.

Our society is in a state of decline - for whatever reason. I believe it is a lack of faith in God. You may mark it down to something else. Social media sure doesn't help matters. Many people are more involved with their Facebook friends than with their own families. That sure doesn't help any of us build bonds.

Whether you believe in God and the Bible, or not, does not change the fact that in the past, many people would not commit the act of suicide because they felt it would result in them going to Hell. Even in the Christian realm, most people now do not believe that suicide is an unpardonable sin. That's bound to account for some decisions.

Here's wishing everyone happiness!

LuLu


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

watcher said:


> No problem, I don't know what you have seen in your life either.
> 
> But having dealt with things like this I will restate that suicide is a selfish, cowardly and/or vindictive act.


How are you supposed to tell someone who thinks they're absolutely worthless that their decision would make them selfish and cowardly? That just doesn't seem helpful...


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Suicide has been romanticized in various cultures and different time periods. I still wonder why Romeo and Juliet were taught and esteemed by educational powers that be. There was other classical literature that would have been acceptable options. Where is the wisdom of making tragic heroes of young folks who were role models for the students studying the assignments?

There are many reasons why people commit suicide. You have biochemical, harsh abusive living circumstances, alcohol addiction, drug addiction, lack of coping skills to deal with failure, disappointment or death. Imitation has a spot also. All animals see and either choose to or not imitate the family members and community around them. I have witnessed this throughout my life with animals, but also when kids get a little more autonomy and are in their teenage years. Parents/caregivers better know and try to navigate their offspring into a group that will be healthy, caring and operating with an active conscience. No easy task in 2016.

People here uphold the approach that you should not tell the depressed, suicidal person that it is a selfish choice to commit suicide. In my way of thinking there is nothing more callous to tell a person that it is their right to end their life whenever they see fit. That is the ultimate dismissal of their worth to themselves, their family and their community.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

I have twice in my life had schoolmates come to me on lifes edge. Thankfully, both are still living. Setting aside terminal illness, a far more complicated matter, I do not believe suicide is a viable option ever. I do not need to rely on my Christian beliefs to reach that conclusion although those beliefs agree. 

People have value as people. They should be treated as such at all times. When someone is about to end their own life, I believe that meets the definition of needing help. 

If suicide rates are really rising, effort should be made to understand why. I do not qualify to make such determinations.


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## Bubba1358 (Nov 6, 2013)

Heritagefarm said:


> How are you supposed to tell someone who thinks they're absolutely worthless that their decision would make them selfish and cowardly? That just doesn't seem helpful...


Objectively speaking, suicide is extremely selfish. It leaves surviving family/friends to pick up the pieces, often very suddenly. It makes survivors question what they did to drive the person this far, or what they could have done to help sooner. It it selfish since it only factors in the individual's feelings, and not the impact of their decision on others.

But I agree - you can't tell this to a suicidal person. It's counterproductive. They need positive support and encouragement that it WILL get better, and this WILL pass.

I do (unfortunately) speak from experience on this. I have had more than one family friend do it. The surviving families were devastated for years. Another person very close to me attempted, but a keen friend immediately called 911 after a 'goodbye' text. He was saved with minutes to spare. I've also spoken on the phone with someone who threatened suicide to me during our conversation. And finally, I myself struggled with deep depression as a teenager, and let's just say that many thoughts were in my head for a few months.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

I swear, you all act like life on earth is all we have and you spend the rest of eternity as dust. We are all spirits that return to an eternity that is far better than here. We get to be with family, friends again. Free of the limitations of our bodies


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

JJ Grandits said:


> Wasn't one of Obama's buzz words "Hope"?
> 
> I guess that panned out about as well as his other promises.:flame:


Hope is at an all time low, and a lot of people are starting to realize they have no future that involves prosperity.
More people are on food stamps, there are less people in the work force, and a lot of people are out of unemployment benefits. (makes the unemployment numbers look good)
Now the war on coal has knocked even more people out of work, jobs are gone, homes will be lost, families will fall apart and the future looks bleak for a lot of people.
We got the change and lost the hope.


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## romysbaskets (Aug 29, 2009)

When I was 15 years old, I stopped a sibling from committing suicide, not once but twice. This sibling felt they could no longer live in the midst of our troubled upbringing. I was able to offer this sibling this....the affect their death would have on me and other family members. I very selfishly expressed wasn't my support of them worth living for and our life to come? That may sound not sound like much to most but it prevented that tragedy from repeating. Throughout the years I continued to offer unlimited emotional support and still do. This sibling is most grateful for my intervention and told me that they needed HELP at that time due to a loss of all hope. That help was just me but I sure didn't see it coming nor did any one else in my family. My Grandmother on my Mother's side committed suicide at 42. I was a baby of one years old so I never knew her. The affects of her death rippled through her family and did permanent emotional damage. A close friend of our family, a young man of only 21, committed suicide several years ago, he was in very good health. To this day, my daughter feels some responsibility because she had changed her phone number and hadn't spoken to him in a while. She felt he may have thought he was all alone but he was on anti depressants and lived in a loving home. My best friend on the island not only committed suicide but arranged to have me find him. He was in great health but had body aches and pains from working too hard. He invited my husband and I over to his place on Thursday but killed himself on Wed. This man was also on anti depressants. When I found him in the back of his van, that image will stay with me forever. As I touched his face to see if there was life, his body was cold and I knew. I had checked on him regularly but he still managed it. The act of suicide may be a choice a person feels entitled to but it does permanent damage to all those that know them. I could not say my friends name without bursting into tears for more then a year. His estranged wife kept looking for reasons why, even stopped by to talk to me. Sure I felt responsibility, why didn't I see it coming, could I have prevented it? We all have to step back and understand that we are not to blame when someone makes that decision. There is such tragedy and heart ache associated with such acts of finality. The decision to take your own life affects a lot of lives around you in a very devastating way.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> How are you supposed to tell someone who thinks they're absolutely worthless that their decision would make them selfish and cowardly? That just doesn't seem helpful...


You can talk a suicidal person down by telling them how their action will cause others pain. They may not care about themselves but they almost always have someone they care for.


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## romysbaskets (Aug 29, 2009)

watcher said:


> You can talk a suicidal person down by telling them how their action will cause others pain. They may not care about themselves but they almost always have someone they care for.


Sometimes you can and other times it doesn't work. My friend Dale had told me about his thoughts and expressed he wouldn't commit suicide because he had a son who was suicidal. He also told me he was afraid if he did this, his son would follow. The opposite did happen when he finally did it. His son was so affected by losing his own Father that way, he realized the pain it caused all of them to the extent he did not commit suicide himself. I don't claim to know that a person can be saved from this decision but I do feel it is always worth trying to show a person you care, there is hope and there is help for them if they need it. I know a lady who lost a son and all her friends fell away causing deep distress, anxiety and depression. Her marriage failed, she became dependent on drugs and alcohol. I have been keeping in contact with her. When I saw her last time in Washington, she expressed to me the great value of my friendship as she cried and hugged me. My son also stopped by to see her. You can't "fix" a person who is going through a very hard time like this but one can continue offering emotional support and continue to be a friend. My Father tried to commit suicide when he was suffering through a terminal illness and bedridden. This act was prevented and he lived 3 more years, got to see all his grandkids, had his room decorated for Christmas, had regular visits and never considered it again.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

romysbaskets said:


> Sometimes you can and other times it doesn't work. My friend Dale had told me about his thoughts and expressed he wouldn't commit suicide because he had a son who was suicidal. He also told me he was afraid if he did this, his son would follow. The opposite did happen when he finally did it. His son was so affected by losing his own Father that way, he realized the pain it caused all of them to the extent he did not commit suicide himself. I don't claim to know that a person can be saved from this decision but I do feel it is always worth trying to show a person you care, there is hope and there is help for them if they need it. I know a lady who lost a son and all her friends fell away causing deep distress, anxiety and depression. Her marriage failed, she became dependent on drugs and alcohol. I have been keeping in contact with her. When I saw her last time in Washington, she expressed to me the great value of my friendship as she cried and hugged me. My son also stopped by to see her. You can't "fix" a person who is going through a very hard time like this but one can continue offering emotional support and continue to be a friend. My Father tried to commit suicide when he was suffering through a terminal illness and bedridden. This act was prevented and he lived 3 more years, got to see all his grandkids, had his room decorated for Christmas, had regular visits and never considered it again.


You'll never be able to talk all of them out of it.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Cornhusker said:


> Hope is at an all time low, and a lot of people are starting to realize they have no future that involves prosperity.
> More people are on food stamps, there are less people in the work force, and a lot of people are out of unemployment benefits. (makes the unemployment numbers look good)
> Now the war on coal has knocked even more people out of work, jobs are gone, homes will be lost, families will fall apart and the future looks bleak for a lot of people.
> We got the change and lost the hope.



You should get your family and move, it's nothing like that where I live


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

oneraddad said:


> You should get your family and move, it's nothing like that where I live



Glad things are going well for you.
Not everyone is lucky enough to be in an area not supported by industries being killed by our government.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> I swear, you all act like life on earth is all we have and you spend the rest of eternity as dust. We are all spirits that return to an eternity that is far better than here. We get to be with family, friends again. Free of the limitations of our bodies


So do you believe all peoples spirits both good and bad go to a place better than this?


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

This place some of you talk about would be way too over crowded for me.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

oneraddad said:


> This place some of you talk about would be way too over crowded for me.


The way some people teach it it would be. Jesus said when he returns will he be able to find any saved upon the earth? That means it will be far fewer than the churches teach today.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

Vahomesteaders said:


> So do you believe all peoples spirits both good and bad go to a place better than this?


Not all, but 97% or so will. Some places are better than others just like here.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> Not all, but 97% or so will. Some places are better than others just like here.


What happens to the 3% and why?


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> But I thought God wouldn't allow men to do this? Would you like to discuss the history of hell ?
> 
> You keep on believing what you will.


Hell, IMO, is discovering Jesus and His love was real while being judged, then spending an eternity knowing you cannot be near that. Where you are becomes secondary quickly.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

Some eventually will be cast to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone with Lucifer.
Just because all men shall get on bended knee and confess of The Christ, doesn't mean they will all follow. Go figure.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> Some eventually will be cast to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone with Lucifer.
> Just because all men shall get on bended knee and confess of The Christ, doesn't mean they will all follow. Go figure.


I do not see 97% of the human race accepting Christ. Did I misunderstand your post?


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

thericeguy said:


> Hell, IMO, is discovering Jesus and His love was real while being judged, then spending an eternity knowing you cannot be near that. Where you are becomes secondary quickly.


Hell is a mistranslation that means dump..The Early church fathers didn't teach of that punishment.."look it up" but was later taught to scare people from sin. How can a spirit burn like flesh?


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

thericeguy said:


> I do not see 97% of the human race accepting Christ. Did I misunderstand your post?


Yes you did. to clarify..97 % of Human spirits will see a "Heaven" in one form or another. After all there are "many Mansions".


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> Hell is a mistranslation that means dump..The Early church fathers didn't teach of that punishment.."look it up" but was later taught to scare people from sin. How can a spirit burn like flesh?


I was clear in my belief. Hell is living outside the presence of Christ. Please do not ascribe someone elses beliefs to me.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> Yes you did. to clarify..97 % of Human spirits will see a "Heaven" in one form or another. After all there are "many Mansions".


I did see that? Pardon me, but how would you know what I see or think? I do not "see" atheists, Budhists, Wicca, etc as having accepted Christ. The "I do not know you" part comes to mind.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

You seem to have missed my question. What happens to the 3% and why? The 3% gets the lake of fire? Because they didnt follow? Maybe I misunderstood you.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

thericeguy said:


> I did see that? Pardon me, but how would you know what I see or think? I do not "see" atheists, Budhists, Wicca, etc as having accepted Christ. The "I do not know you" part comes to mind.


I don't profess to know what you see. You asked if you misunderstood and I said yes you did.

Just because atheists, Budhists, Wiccans don't accept The Christ now, doesn't mean they won't when they have left the physical life and know first hand in the spirit.
But still a fraction will follow Lucifer and his angels. These are those who won't be in "Paradise".

****DISCLAIMER******

Before I start getting attacked by all the Bible thumpers of the world. I am not preaching or taking a collection but expressing my beliefs, I could be wrong,but is how I believe. You are responsible for your own beliefs, Whether you choose to believe any man,preacher,grandpa or grandma or not, is up to you. However it would be wise to check with what the Gnostics believed and then start around with what Constantine brought to Christianity and work your way to the Early Church Fathers...That Is All, WWS... OUT!


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> I don't profess to know what you see. You asked if you misunderstood and I said yes you did.
> 
> Just because atheists, Budhists, Wiccans don't accept The Christ now, doesn't mean they won't when they have left the physical life and know first hand in the spirit.
> But still a fraction will follow Lucifer and his angels. These are those who won't be in "Paradise".
> ...


This is their chance to accept Christ. This life is our second chance. There is no third after death. Jesus said every ear will hear the truth and accept or deny him in this physical life. It's about faith. It doesn't take faith to believe once you see.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> I don't profess to know what you see. You asked if you misunderstood and I said yes you did.
> 
> Just because atheists, Budhists, Wiccans don't accept The Christ now, doesn't mean they won't when they have left the physical life and know first hand in the spirit.
> But still a fraction will follow Lucifer and his angels. These are those who won't be in "Paradise".
> ...


WWS, I am not attacking you. Did I not ask if I misunderstood you? I think, based on what you said, that people have access to redemption standing before Christ on judgement day. Would that be accurate? If not, please explain.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

thericeguy said:


> WWS, I am not attacking you. Did I not ask if I misunderstood you? I think, based on what you said, that people have access to redemption standing before Christ on judgement day. Would that be accurate? If not, please explain.


There is more than one judgement, just as there is judgment of Nations.
Don't confuse the physical judgment with the judgment of those who are already in the afterlife.
I didn't take it personally.

As to others, I don't care if you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster..if that's what you believe and are steadfast, I'm good with that. I'm just saying not all Churches/Denominations/or what have you preach the Whole Gospel and the whole truth.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

I was unaware of how controversial this discussion was. I wish all the best for those who've had to deal with this issue. I can only imagine what others have had to go through.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Vahomesteaders said:


> This is their chance to accept Christ. This life is our second chance. There is no third after death. Jesus said every ear will hear the truth and accept or deny him in this physical life. It's about faith. It doesn't take faith to believe once you see.


 So all those Native Americans that roamed this land for 15,000 years, and never heard of Jesus of Nazereth, their spirits are now being tormented for eternity because of that? Nah, I seriously doubt it works that way.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

greg273 said:


> So all those Native Americans that roamed this land for 15,000 years, and never heard of Jesus of Nazereth, their spirits are now being tormented for eternity because of that? Nah, I seriously doubt it works that way.


I do not understand that either. I am no theologian. I know Christ is just. The Christ I know and love could not condemn people who had no chance to accept or reject Him. There still exist some peoples today so remote and ancient, they barely have the written word, much less a Bible.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Actually there are several legends from several different tribes of a healer that came to them and choose 12 of each tribe to teach his ways. The university of Oklahoma discovered pottery at the Spiro mound dig of a man with crosses in his hands and palm leaves. The called him the dawn god. Several tribes have this account and they are very similar.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Vahomesteaders said:


> The university of Oklahoma discovered pottery at the Spiro mound dig of a man with crosses in his hands and palm leaves.


 Got a pic?


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

thericeguy said:


> I do not understand that either. I am no theologian. I know Christ is just. The Christ I know and love could not condemn people who had no chance to accept or reject Him. There still exist some peoples today so remote and ancient, they barely have the written word, much less a Bible.


No, but most Christians are quick to condemn non Christians as lost, barbarians, heathens, hell-bound, or otherwise.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Heritagefarm said:


> No, but most Christians are quick to condemn non Christians as lost, barbarians, heathens, hell-bound, or otherwise.


I have not found this to be the case. I disagree with the "most". I think that the ones who do this do it in a very loud boisterous voice that drowns out the very humble voices of the bulk of Christians.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Heritagefarm said:


> No, but most Christians are quick to condemn non Christians as lost, barbarians, heathens, hell-bound, or otherwise.


Absolutely. Not only non christians but christians of different sects. It's nuts.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

thericeguy said:


> I have not found this to be the case. I disagree with the "most". I think that the ones who do this do it in a very loud boisterous voice that drowns out the very humble voices of the bulk of Christians.


Maybe so, but your religion, in not quite the same words, says you're superior to other religions. Further, you're obligated to believe this, and not believing it results in consequences, I.e. punishment.



Irish Pixie said:


> Absolutely. Not only non christians but christians of different sects. It's nuts.


Exactly. If you're not specifically Baptist, for instance, or Mormon, or whatever, you're not as good a person.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

thericeguy said:


> I do not understand that either. I am no theologian. I know Christ is just. The Christ I know and love could not condemn people who had no chance to accept or reject Him. There still exist some peoples today so remote and ancient, they barely have the written word, much less a Bible.


And not to mention children who pass before the age of accountability. Are they just out of luck too? 
I don't thinks so. They too along with others that pass will know of "The Good News". After all none go to the Father, but through the Christ.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Heritagefarm said:


> Maybe so, but your religion, in not quite the same words, says you're superior to other religions. Further, you're obligated to believe this, and not believing it results in consequences, I.e. punishment.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. If you're not specifically Baptist, for instance, or Mormon, or whatever, you're not as good a person.


Aren't all religions superior to other religions?
Some religions will kill you if you don't join up


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Cornhusker said:


> Aren't all religions superior to other religions?
> Some religions will kill you if you don't join up


Most religions have a superiority complex. Some religions will use coercion to get you to join their ranks. I don't know of any that will kill you, because arguably Jihadist Islam isn't really a religion.


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## Bubba1358 (Nov 6, 2013)

Heritagefarm said:


> Maybe so, but your religion, in not quite the same words, says you're superior to other religions. Further, you're obligated to believe this, and not believing it results in consequences, I.e. punishment.





Heritagefarm said:


> Most religions have a superiority complex. Some religions will use coercion to get you to join their ranks. I don't know of any that will kill you, because arguably Jihadist Islam isn't really a religion.


The same can be said of progressivism. Only, the consequences for not subscribing to the prevailing cultural winds are material, not metaphysical.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Heritagefarm said:


> Maybe so, but your religion, in not quite the same words, says you're superior to other religions. Further, you're obligated to believe this, and not believing it results in consequences, I.e. punishment.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. If you're not specifically Baptist, for instance, or Mormon, or whatever, you're not as good a person.


I have to disagree again. My religion, based on the Bible, clearly states that we all are sinners and that none are worthy but through the grace of Jesus. My religion never ever said Chtistians are better. It says only the God is great and merciful. Salvation, in effect, has little to do with man and all to do with God. 

And your second paragraph is such a vague generalization and is so far off from representing any Christian I have ever met, I will simply allow it do die the death it deserves.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

If God knew us before we were born, wouldn't we be worthy? 
I don't believe we are all sinners so to speak, but born into sin, once we come to earth, as there is no sin where the God is.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Something to ponder. Bible says we are sinners by birth. And that God knew us before we were born. And there was a rebellion. Might give us some insight on who we were before and why we are even here needing redemption. And why God said it pained him to have to create man flesh and be born of woman.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

There was a rebellion of 1/3 of the angels.. But angels are different than human spirits. I don't think there is any remorse of our creation in the flesh, but we sure have screwed a lot of things up along the way.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Heritagefarm said:


> Most religions have a superiority complex. Some religions will use coercion to get you to join their ranks. I don't know of any that will kill you, because arguably Jihadist Islam isn't really a religion.


Actually is is a religion


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Bubba1358 said:


> The same can be said of progressivism. Only, the consequences for not subscribing to the prevailing cultural winds are material, not metaphysical.


I think it applies equally to any societal amalgamation that requires a blind support base.



thericeguy said:


> I have to disagree again. My religion, based on the Bible, clearly states that we all are sinners and that none are worthy but through the grace of Jesus. My religion never ever said Chtistians are better. It says only the God is great and merciful. Salvation, in effect, has little to do with man and all to do with God.
> 
> And your second paragraph is such a vague generalization and is so far off from representing any Christian I have ever met, I will simply allow it do die the death it deserves.


This is fine, but since I don't subscribe to Christianity, I cannot really use that same line of thinking. If I am a sinner, it's because I'm a human, derived from nature. No one is perfect, but since no one can become perfect, we can make it a goal and see how far we get. 
In the meantime, I've gained great peace of mind from not having to wonder if I'm saved or not. Not having to wonder about all the rules... trying to make people accept me, for someone I'm not... and just accepting myself for who I am. Now I can just make the world a better place in my own little way.
It works for me, probably not for you, and I think that's OK.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Heritagefarm said:


> I think it applies equally to any societal amalgamation that requires a blind support base.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup. That is perfectly OK. While some evangelicals can be extremely off-putting, I try not to be. I will not deny my own beliefs, and if I see wrong I say wrong, but my role here is not to preach to the masses. That is someone elses job. 

In any regard, I do not define my enemies based on Christian or non-Christian, but on good or bad. And both can claim to be members of either group.


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## 1948CaseVAI (May 12, 2014)

Many people are waking up to the fact that liberals have stealthily taken over and they build power by keeping most folks desperate and hopeless. That is intentional on their part as that is how they keep all of us as helpless as possible and on their plantation. That is also why they are constantly demanding more gun restrictions because they realize that at any moment many good men and women can rise up and start shooting them. 

That is, after all, why we have the 2nd amendment. As Judge Napolitano said a few years ago, we do not have the 2nd amendment so we can go hunting, we have the 2nd amendment so we can shoot the government when necessary.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Darren, is this the direction you hoped your thread would go? :hohum:


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

1948CaseVAI said:


> Many people are waking up to the fact that liberals have stealthily taken over and they build power by keeping most folks desperate and hopeless. That is intentional on their part as that is how they keep all of us as helpless as possible and on their plantation. That is also why they are constantly demanding more gun restrictions because they realize that at any moment many good men and women can rise up and start shooting them.
> 
> That is, after all, why we have the 2nd amendment. As Judge Napolitano said a few years ago, we do not have the 2nd amendment so we can go hunting, we have the 2nd amendment so we can shoot the government when necessary.


Great. Now liberals need to be shot. I don't feel threatened at all.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

1948CaseVAI said:


> Many people are waking up to the fact that liberals have stealthily taken over and they build power by keeping most folks desperate and hopeless. That is intentional on their part as that is how they keep all of us as helpless as possible and on their plantation. That is also why they are constantly demanding more gun restrictions because they realize that at any moment many good men and women can rise up and start shooting them.
> 
> That is, after all, why we have the 2nd amendment. As Judge Napolitano said a few years ago, we do not have the 2nd amendment so we can go hunting, we have the 2nd amendment so we can shoot the government when necessary.


Just to be clear, do you advocate shooting liberals, then?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Raeven said:


> Just to be clear, do you advocate shooting liberals, then?


There is fast coming a time when you will have to choose a side for the constitution or against. And will come to each will most likely be shooting the other. If history has shown us anything its people who yearn for, seek and respect freedom will attempt to stay free. Their first action is to keep it where they are, their second is to move somewhere to find it, their last is to fight against those who seek to remove it.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Raeven said:


> Just to be clear, do you advocate shooting liberals, then?


I believe there is more than one that advocates shooting those that don't share the same view. Scary, huh?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

There are times being shot seems much better than being talked to death.:huh:


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

watcher said:


> There is fast coming a time when you will have to choose a side for the constitution or against. And will come to each will most likely be shooting the other. If history has shown us anything its people who yearn for, seek and respect freedom will attempt to stay free. Their first action is to keep it where they are, their second is to move somewhere to find it, their last is to fight against those who seek to remove it.


SO, are you advocating shooting liberals, too? Because you've got an implicit approval for CaseVAI's statement going on here. Is that why the 2nd amendment is so important to you, so you can shoot people you don't agree with? Don't get me wrong, we've justified that plenty of times - our interactions with the Native Americans comes to mind. 

So tell me, why are your values worth killing or shooting for, but mine aren't?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> SO, are you advocating shooting liberals, too? Because you've got an implicit approval for CaseVAI's statement going on here. Is that why the 2nd amendment is so important to you, so you can shoot people you don't agree with? Don't get me wrong, we've justified that plenty of times - our interactions with the Native Americans comes to mind.
> 
> So tell me, why are your values worth killing or shooting for, but mine aren't?


I don't know why you consider your beliefs and values to be so valueless you would not be willing to defend them if someone tried to force you to change. You have to answer that question for yourself. 

All I can point out is each side in every war thinks their values are worth killing for as well as dying for.

The founding fathers and their followers thought freedom was worth killing for and King George and his followers thought keeping his subjects was worth killing for. 


_Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at it its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms._


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

Again, there is misrepresentation happening. 
The second Amendment exists to enforce the first Amendment. 
For the ability and right to protect ones self from both individuals And a represive Government. Both of which come in many different varieties, both Liberal and Conservative. It is a means to protect and preserve 
The Republic. 
We are now witnessing the results of gun control all over Europe now. Sometimes elected officials don't represent and act on the best interests of its people and Country.
But this has nothing to do with suicide.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

watcher said:


> I don't know why you consider your beliefs and values to be so valueless you would not be willing to defend them if someone tried to force you to change. You have to answer that question for yourself.
> 
> All I can point out is each side in every war thinks their values are worth killing for as well as dying for.
> 
> ...


Your inability to comprehend other's belief systems and viewpoints isn't my problem. But I've never said I would never defend them. If someone forced me to attend church I would have a problem with that. 
The key difference is that _I will actually encourage people to go on their own path._ You will encourage others to follow your path because you find it morally superior. I do not suffer from moral superiority, which causes me to be able to help people, truly and completely, find their own path. My path may not work for others. Their path may not work for me. Most religious people have a hard time processing this.


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