# Do you spank?



## blue8ewe (Oct 25, 2006)

This has been going around lately because of some guy who is giveing/or selling paddles to spank kids when appropriate for punishment. 
I know that there are many old timers so I was hoping for a well rounded view. 
Is this a "fad" that was once and is no longer? Or have people become so afraid of "abusing" a child that they dont use corporal punishment any more?
Or is this more of a thing for the city, worldly types? 
I realy wonder what has changed so much? Is it the increase of people comming away from God? The ever increasing public eye?

I only ask that this thread stay civil. There have been a lot of bashing and pure hatred towards "spanker's" in the conversations I have been fallowing. 
If that starts here Ill ask a MOD to close the thread.


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## Puddleduck (Mar 12, 2005)

I did. Now that I'm older and much more mellow, I wouldn't. I would find an alternative punishment. Funny how time changes a person.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

for extreme disobideince not minor offenses


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## Snugglebunny (Oct 20, 2004)

Spanking here is a last resort - when everything else has been tried, and it's never EVER done in anger. We try to encourage listening skills more than punishment - we talk about good choices vs bad choices, consequences, etc.


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## WindowOrMirror (Jan 10, 2005)

We have only spanked for direct disobedience (continued and direct defiance).

It's been a while since we spanked as the kids are really too old for that to be the most effective method of imparting wisdom or modifying behavior

(flame on)

R


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## LostnEurope (Feb 26, 2007)

I will spank but only after I have tried all other avenues..That being said my 11yo DD really doesn't know what a REAL spanking is, not like I used to get....LnE


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2007)

Yes, I do. I don't need a paddle. My hand suffices for the job. 

But my kids get ten times as many hugs and kisses as they get smacks on the butt.

......Alan.


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## Lynne (May 10, 2002)

like Snugglebunny and Rose
as a last resort and just a swat or two the butt with an open hand


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

Yes, but I haven't had to for YEARS -- not since the boys were little.

And I would never use a paddle, or any other "tool", other than my hand.


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## Jan Doling (May 21, 2004)

I know someone who adopted 9 kids....she had a consequence chart posted on the fridge, listing the consequence for different offenses. Spanking was only for something God would have punished by death in the Bible (lying, stealing, etc.). 

I swat still sometimes, but am more creative now than when they were little. My oldest loves her food, so I will ground her from sodas or desserts for day or a week, depending on the severity of the crime. I will leave an offender home and take the other kid to a movie. I will assign an oderous chore. Somethings really get to them. You just have to figure out which kid hates which punishment the most.


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## Bob_W_in_NM (Sep 28, 2003)

Spare the rod - spoil the child. A good quality razor strop would be a great investment for any family. We've been through a couple of generations of "enlightened" child rearing and look at the results. "Case closed" in my book!

Bob


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## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

I'm a mom of "young" kids (4 & 8) and I voted spank. I also would describe myself as a Christian and feel that spanking is a command from God. But that does NOT mean that my children are spank for every little thing they do wrong. Only one thing can earn them a spanking...dis-obedience. Any other "infraction" warrants a discussion in which we determine the root of the problem and work from there trying correct the behavior. They can fight, argue, act like kids and have no fear of being spanked for it.

This is working for us, it's not perfect. My kids aren't perfect and I'm not perfect so mistakes happen.


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## vegascowgirl (Sep 19, 2004)

yes I do, but only as a last resort. First comes a warning, then time out/ possibly a grounding. After that though, if my children are still doing the same thing that had them in trouble in the first place I will spank. A spanking in my house is on the backside or on the hands, with an open hand. belts, spoons, switches are not used.

I can't stand going to the store and seeing mothers with children running rampant . While the mother sits there, either ignoring them or pleading with them to be good. For goodness sake take control, instead of standing there with a little meak voice saying "now, johnny, you shouldn't do that" ."Johnny, don't open that potao salad". "Johnny, potato salad doesn't belong in your pants" "Well, Johnny I guess I'll have to pay for that potato salad now". ....It should have never got to that point. 

No my kids aren't angels. My five yr old has a major stubborn streak. However, she also is tought respect. I require and demand respect from my children. A child who does not listen to their parents is disrespectfull. 

Now if a non spanking method works for your children, fantastic. And of course every child is different. What works or doesn't work for one. may be the opposite for another.


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## ginnie5 (Jul 15, 2003)

Well all I can say is I survived my Grannie's whoopins. Keen little hickory switches, and now that I'm older I'll be honest and say I could've used a few more! I remember one time we snuck down to the pond when she was watching us...we weren't allowed to go there ever. She tore my backside and legs to pieces when we got back.......seemed she's been calling us and we couldn't hear her. She'd called my dad home so I got another one when he got there.


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## TC (Jun 22, 2005)

yes, we spank, but I can count on one hand the times we have and that's with 4 kids. As others have said, only if it's the last resort. THat being said, I am creative with disiplines. I bet my kids wished I spanked more, rather than the highy thought out punishments I usually come up with....


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## Pink_Carnation (Apr 21, 2006)

blue8ewe said:


> Is this a "fad" that was once and is no longer? Or have people become so afraid of "abusing" a child that they dont use corporal punishment any more?
> Or is this more of a thing for the city, worldly types?
> I realy wonder what has changed so much? Is it the increase of people comming away from God? The ever increasing public eye?


People are afraid of being accused of abusing their child...depending on where you live cps will pay a visit if you spank in public, especially with a paddle or other item. 

Some who were abused will worry about abusing too.

The city living increases the problem of "they" are watching.

I don't think it is as much comming away from God as it is changing standards of behavior and the desire to give the children a carefree childhood.


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## A'sta at Hofstead (Sep 20, 2006)

No. There are better ways to teach.
Violence begets violence.


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## southrngardngal (Oct 18, 2005)

I spanked mine when they were children. As some others have said "not for every little thing." but when they were disobedient and/or disrespectful they were spanked. 

When I worked as a teacher assistant a little boy asked me in a shocked tone :"You spanked your children?" I told him that I did and not one of them grew up to be axe murderers and that they were all responsible adults. He couldn't believe that I spanked my children. His parents didn't spank. Well, I saw him five days a week and believe me from his behavior in the classroom he could have used an attitude adjustment. LOL

southrngardngal-Jan


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I used it as a back-up for mor peacefull punishments. The corner WAS more effective....excepting when it did not work.

If I spanked a child more than every 6 months or so, I would stop and review the less physical punishments available. I hated spanking, and so I used other methods when I could.

The fact is, the other punishments did not ALWAYS work, they just USUALLY worked. And so they were occasionally spanked.


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## Snugglebunny (Oct 20, 2004)

Around here, nothing ALWAYS works... not spanking, corners, talking, time-outs, removal of privaleges... nothing always works. I try to discipline according to the wrong. Spanking is usually a result of more serious behavior - lying, hitting or pushing, or when a child is simply refusing to listen for a long period of time. We expect our boys to listen to direction the first time.


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## stars01 (Jun 24, 2006)

No spanking here, just talking and listening. I would much rather talk things out then hit our daughter. I've had spoons and paddles broken on me and it never helped. 

That being said, I don't judge others because what works for us might not work for others. 

Paula


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

blue8ewe said:


> This has been going around lately because of some guy who is giveing/or selling paddles to spank kids when appropriate for punishment.
> I know that there are many old timers so I was hoping for a well rounded view.
> Is this a "fad" that was once and is no longer? Or have people become so afraid of "abusing" a child that they dont use corporal punishment any more?
> Or is this more of a thing for the city, worldly types?
> ...



I don't think it has anything to do with being a fad or being afraid of "abuse". I think that people are learning that kids get a lot more from talking than they do from spanking and following that, learning that there are ways to parent other than hitting. Spanking teaches one thing... do what I say or you get physically hurt. I honestly think that spanking is the easy way out. It takes a lot of time and thought to crouch down to your kids' levels and really explain the situation.

I don't spank because I don't believe in violence toward my fellow man. If I were to strike an adult, I would get arrested for it. What makes it okay to strike a child or baby? But yeah, it takes a lot more time, a lot more parenting, and much, much more attention to *not* spank than to do so. I have spent hours... literally... in a single day going over why something is appropriate or not. Yes, I lose my temper, I've yelled. But hitting is never an option.

The Bible certainly doesn't advocate it (according to my interpretation). People have manipulated the word "rod" in the Bible to justify their tempers. But the word means "teaching" in both the original Greek and original Hebrew, not "hitting". Unfortunately some half-dazed, tired old monk in King James' court decided to use the word "rod" because during that time, "rod" was meant as a metaphorical representation of a leader. And some tired old fool came along and decided that it meant a rod to beat the heck out of your kids. How can it be that a man, the son of God, whose entire ministry was based on "turn the other cheek", "love your fellow man", and "be kind" condone such a harsh punishment? He didn't... man misinterpreted.

Likewise, the Quran says the same things. After all, Jesus was a prophet of Islam according to that religion.

Spanking has nothing to do with God, in my honest opinion, and it's not even apropos to the discussion.

All my opinions, answering honestly.


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

Yes, but only when they new before hand what the consequences would be. Not anymore they are bigger than us and they are grown. Do I think we did the right thing? Look no farther than todays schools and crimes commited by todays youth. Then you be the judge.


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## mamalisa (Feb 1, 2004)

If you are smacking your kids weekly, then you need to rethink. However, sometimes you can discuss issues until you are blue in the face, and get nowhere. My kids were spanked, but also a million other options. Spanking is for deliberate misbehaviour---pants down in the parking lot if need be.


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## Snugglebunny (Oct 20, 2004)

What do you do, then, when your 4 yr old has been doign the same thing all day long - after you've 'crouched down to his level', given him a time-out, taken things away, etc? Keep talking to a small child who is obviously not listening? One day, they're open to my 'teaching', next day, they close me out altogether. So do I keep talking when I've obviously become like the teacher in Charlie Brown cartoons "Wah, wah wah wah..."? No. I show them that listening is not OPTIONAL, because I am the parent! because God gave me a job to do in raising my children and teaching them respect for others and for authority. I AM the authority. Parenting is not a democracy, it's a DICTATORSHIP! So in that way, I do spank - but only as a last resort, and not random beatings, but a couple of swats on the bum.


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## michiganfarmer (Oct 15, 2005)

OH! A hot button subject. Been here done that.

The emotions of those who think spanking is abuse can not be reasoned with.



Im sitting this one out.


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## MicheleMomof4 (Jul 17, 2002)

A punishment (no matter what you use) is only as effective as the parents are. I have spanked my children when the situation called for it......direct or continued disrespect or when they did something dangerous. When the punishment is applied effectively....not in anger, no 100 warnings - following through and being consistent....then it really only needs to be done a few times at most. Like others said, it is far and few in between. I do not spank for every little infraction.
In my opinion though you can spank a child all you want but if your not willing to PARENT them it will never work. Take out spanking and insert, time outs, removing privileges and etc and it is all the same. Parenting them.....never punish out of anger, follow through without tons of warnings and being consistant about rules....will yield more results than anything else.
And I take offense to the poster who said "violence begets violence". My children are not violent or would they even dream of it. They are children with faith, love and compassion in their hearts. They wouldn't dream of harming another one, even their own siblings. They are not perfect but hitting, pinching etc. have NEVER been issues in my house.That isn't because I spanked them. It is because I PARENTED them. 
God Bless,
Michele


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

MicheleMomof4 said:


> It is because I PARENTED them.
> God Bless,
> Michele


While I don't agree with spanking, I think this statement says it all. :clap:


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

michiganfarmer said:


> The emotions of those who think spanking is abuse can not be reasoned with.


I agree. And I voted yes. I was spanked and I do spank. It is a punishment and only when truly needed. A proper spanking hurts to give(emotionally) as much as it hurts to recieve. If spanking makes the giver feel good(besides the feeling of doing whats right), then its not being given for the proper reasons. I am thankful to my parents that I was spanked.
And I will not babysit children that I cannot spank *if need be*.


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

booklover said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with being a fad or being afraid of "abuse". I think that people are learning that kids get a lot more from talking than they do from spanking and following that, learning that there are ways to parent other than hitting. Spanking teaches one thing... do what I say or you get physically hurt. I honestly think that spanking is the easy way out. It takes a lot of time and thought to crouch down to your kids' levels and really explain the situation.
> 
> I don't spank because I don't believe in violence toward my fellow man. If I were to strike an adult, I would get arrested for it. What makes it okay to strike a child or baby? But yeah, it takes a lot more time, a lot more parenting, and much, much more attention to *not* spank than to do so. I have spent hours... literally... in a single day going over why something is appropriate or not. Yes, I lose my temper, I've yelled. But hitting is never an option.
> 
> ...


 If the quran says the samething then they need to start back spanking, because too many are growing up to be sucide bombers and if the word rod means teach then a "HOTROD" would be a teacher who likes to molest students. With all due respect, I don't agree.


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## Splinky (Nov 10, 2006)

People often speak as though spanking your child will teach him to be a violent person. Or that there is never a good reason to spank a child, there are always better punishments if the parents would stop and think about it.

I personally disagree with both those sentiments. Most of our parents where spanked as children and I can say that at least mine have come out with out violent tenancies. In fact I have seen my Father deal peaceably with people that could have used being clocked in the face.

As for there being better ways to deal with children, I remember much of my childhood and I will admit that I was a stubborn willful child. The few times I was spanked (I can count them on one hand) I had it coming and deserved what I got. I don't feel my parents could have found a better way to deal with me.

I spank my child, though I will admit not often. I come out of it more upset than he does. I don't feel I am teaching him to be violent, and if how he behaves now is any indication, I am right. He is a far more gentle and peaceful child than most of the children at the play ground.


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## QuiltingLady2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Parenting is the key.

I didn't spank. Nor do I believe that spanking was right for our family.


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

Snugglebunny said:


> No. I show them that listening is not OPTIONAL, because I am the parent! because God gave me a job to do in raising my children and teaching them respect for others and for authority. I AM the authority. Parenting is not a democracy, it's a DICTATORSHIP!


Sometimes I don't listen to my husband. I say, "huh?" a hundred times and he will walk off peeved at me because I was distracted and wouldn't listen. But he understands that sometimes I'm distracted, respects that, and we work through it. He certainly doesn't hit me.

Same with the kiddo. We ALL have bad days. When I PMS, I am horrible to live with and I know it. Some days, in spite of the fact she hasn't gone through puberty, dd has her bad ones too. I give her that right to have a bad day because she is a person.

We respect everyone to have equal say. In our house, being a parent doesn't make us dictator because we are all people. Every person is equal in their rights on this planet. Just because they are smaller doesn't make them lesser people. My job is not to RAISE my child to do as I say... my job is to allow my child to GROW into her own self. My husband and I are her GUIDES on this journey and I can influence her to make her own right decisions, but ultimately they are hers to make. I exerted more influence when she was younger and as she has learned her own lessons, I respect her decisions. Some are not good.

Example: "Please quit jumping from divan." "Jumping like that will get you hurt." Jump. Crash. "Yep, it sure does hurt to have a broken foot. Maybe you'll listen to me the next time." Next time she listened. Natural consequences.


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## BAmaBubba (May 10, 2007)

I do. I try everything else to keep from it but if my children to not correct their behavior after other attempts, then I spank them. 

Brandon


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## jil101ca (Jul 2, 2007)

I have spanked my kids when needed, some more than others. I found each one needed different methods of dicipline. My daughter who is almost 6 has had 2 spankings in her life. I just need to slightly raise my voice for her. I have never used anything but my open hand to spank.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Now that our children have received their concealed carry permits, we no longer spank.


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## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

I voted "no" I don't spank but I *did* once. One of my children was hitting me to get attention and I held her hand and slapped her wrist enough to make it sting and turn pink.

I thought in that situation, hitting back to show her that it hurt was an appropriate reaction. 

Every other problem I dealt with in some manner other than spanking. I was spanked as a child but I choose other forms of discipline now that I'm the parent.


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## Snugglebunny (Oct 20, 2004)

There's a big difference between listening to my husband and my kids listening to me.
There's a big difference between a physical ailment affecting a child's dimeanor and outright defiance - and every good parent knows which is coming from their child.

In my house, it is a dictatorship because the kids think they can convince me I'm wrong when I ask them to do something (like go to bed, take a bath or clean up toys). I tell them "No, you can't go outside, Daddy's mowing the lawn and I want to keep you safe" and they start throwing a fit.

It's a dictatorship. I set the rules, they are expected to follow them. If they don't there are consequences. Sometimes, natural consequences work, most of the time they don't. I can't count the number of times I've had my boys do the same stupid stunt over and over again getting hurt every time.


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## Sharon in NY (May 11, 2002)

Yes, although before I became a parent, I thought I wouldn't. I do it for two reasons, as a last resort, and for dangerous behavior or serious defiance, and I don't spank all my kids.

I spank my oldest, autistic child because he literally cannot understand when I'm angry at him - he doesn't get facial cues, and he often does dangerous things (because he doesn't know better) and doesn't understand when he's being disciplined verbally or punished in other ways. Spanking (open hand) is the only way he can understand "climbing out the window is a big no-no." I've done this a dozen times or so.

I have spanked my two middle children for direct defiance of an extended sort. I think I've done it 2 times each, but it might only be 1 with the younger.

I've never yet spanked my youngest 21 months - I don't believe in spanking before 18 months, because I don't think they always understand what you are trying to teach them not to do. I hope never to spank him, but it may happen.

Every kid is different, and I believe strongly in Michele's point that parenting is what's really important.

Sharon


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## WindowOrMirror (Jan 10, 2005)

Booklover... I am going to do myself a favor and not get started with what you have pushed off on us as biblical exegesis a few posts up.

Suffice it to say that human reason (you not understanding how this could "fit") does NOT trump Scripture. Christ - while very clear on the love message - was also very clear on the message of obedience, discipline, and the fact that we are to live as if "set apart". The rest of the NT goes on to explain that while the old law is done - good thing because the things we spank for were capital offenses - that the new law has very similar outworkings, though the motivation is different.

It is true that the word "rod" meant several things "back then", but to make a statement carte blanche that it did not mean a switch in these verses in Proverbs is misleading. Even if it did mean "ruler", parents are still the the rulers in the household. I will say that there is sufficient evidence in other related verses that shows that this likely mean rod of correction (whip or switch).

Anyhow... human reason is NOT equal to Scripture or divine revelation. Just because you can't make it fit doesn't mean it doesn't.

R

P.S. Wow... now I see that you've posted that kids and adults are equals where opnions and choices are concerned and I see that this is hopeless... please ignore my post above.


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## simplefarmgirl (Mar 31, 2006)

I also was spank and i did spank my 4 and 3 grandchildren when needed..There is a difference between disciple and abuse. 6 yrs ago when my youngest daughter was 12 she was hitting my grandson who was6 at the time, so after many attempt to stop her and get her to understand she wasnt allowed to hit him, she needed to bring the problem to me first, she continue to hit him when i left the room, i did inform her she was about to get a much needed spanking if she didnt stop, she then told me i didnt dare spank her because she would call the police, I did spank her for her disobience for disrespecting me and also for not stopping the hitting ona 6yr old. The state police did show up 1hour later,, when all was said in done, the state troope infomr my daughter i have the right to discipline her she tried to say i abused her and he took pictures and everything, and in his report to his commanding officer he stated this was a spoiled girl who didnt get her own way and called my bluff and I called hers back. She has since understood , talking back and disrepecting an adutl isnt happening, she did know this and she knew better fro the start.. I use spanking as the last resort and seem to have more patience in my old age.. LOL But children in my home show respect or they dont receive any.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

simplefarmgirl said:


> The state police did show up 1hour later,, when all was said in done, the state troope infomr my daughter i have the right to discipline her she tried to say i abused her and he took pictures and everything, and in his report to his commanding officer he stated this was a spoiled girl who didnt get her own way and called my bluff and I called hers back..


Whatta guy! Good for the both of you. :goodjob:


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

WindowOrMirror said:


> Booklover... I am going to do myself a favor and not get started with what you have pushed off on us as biblical exegesis a few posts up.


I was responding to the original question, by the original poster that asked, "Is it because we are coming away from God." I am not a Christian, although I was a bible-thumping fundamentalist in my younger days... to the point of reading the bible in the original languages for points of clarification. I didn't mean to start a debate about the spiritual aspect of it, although, I supposed I can't expect to make my comments and not get some response.

Obviously you and I have a different interpretation of Biblical scripture, although mine comes mostly from a linguistic exploration of biblical semantics and not an interpretation of the English translations. I don't want to get into an argument. I agree to disagree.  I apologize if I've offended. I will continue to believe my opinions and I'll leave you all to your own opinions. Peace.


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## Heidi's_Goats (Mar 21, 2007)

Yes. It is almost a daily occurance. Kids running in the parking lot after I told them 5 times to not do that and hold onto the shopping cart. Arghh. Faith already inadvertently broke her great-grandmother's shoulder after she decided to run in front of cars on a street.

I am seriously thinking of taking this parenting class a psychologist is teaching. She had 6 or 7 kids herself. I'm scared that I'll turn into my Dad. He was a Staff Sergeant and believed in quick, swift punishment. Only rarely did he use a belt. I was a terrible child and I did deserve most of those spanking and whippings. I do believe it was fair punishment.

I feel that spanking is a necessary punishment for severe disobedience.


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## belladulcinea (Jun 21, 2006)

Things like running towards the road or direct defiance were spanking offences here, things that could cause your death or severe physical injury resulted in spanking. Throwing a temper tantrum in the store was another one. I've left groceries in the cart and left the store with child in hand knowing what was going to happen. 

My dad did spank us and I remember once having the belt used on me and frankly looking back I deserved it! He would talk to us first and by the time he was done I was wanting to be spanked and have it over with.


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## WindowOrMirror (Jan 10, 2005)

I think that exploration of the Bible in the original language, be that through statistical analysis, linguistics, or semantic voice and mood or through a personal knowledge of those languages is a fascinating scientific study!

However, Christ is a Person and not a Plan. Relationship, not Rote.

You have more scientific tools at your disposal than most, but don't use those exclusively. Plug in to Him and use your knowledge and tools to better explain that which He reveals to others. You can be powerful.

You and I don't have to agree... doesn't make me like you any less. We can both be in the family with different views on certain things (especially this one).

R


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## mamalisa (Feb 1, 2004)

booklover said:


> Example: "Please quit jumping from divan." "Jumping like that will get you hurt." Jump. Crash. "Yep, it sure does hurt to have a broken foot. Maybe you'll listen to me the next time." Next time she listened. Natural consequences.



So you are willing to allow your child possible severe physical injury, but not to enforce your commands? Poor kid! Hopefully her childlike lack of knowledge won't get her killed before you grow a backbone!


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

mamalisa said:


> So you are willing to allow your child possible severe physical injury, but not to enforce your commands? Poor kid! Hopefully her childlike lack of knowledge won't get her killed before you grow a backbone!


I'm not going to change anyone's mind and I'm not trying to. Just putting it out there that some people think differently... and it's okay to think differently.

I believe my backbone has grown... if not, it certainly will if I continue to argue in threads like this.  (I hope we can be friends even though we disagree.  )


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## red1 (Jun 19, 2007)

I don't have any children, but If I did and if they were anything like I was as a child, you bet. It set me straight and besides as one poster noted, I received 10 times as many hugs and kisses to make up for a whippin.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Never found it necessary. But I do growl and give the eye. Works every time even over long distances.


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## HaysFarm (Jul 23, 2005)

I voted yes: we really don't anymore maybe 1 a year it comes to that. But only because I've learned from my father there are much worse things.
Our kids have had to turn those little white driveway rocks over so they don't get sun burnt 
they have had to dig a 3x3x3 hole then fill it back in.
move hay bales from one side of the barn to the other
pull weeds from the fence line until the cart was full. ( not a very big cart but still takes time)
Wash all the trucks, boats ext.. and then they had to go to the shop and wash all of those took all day before they were done ( they got in to and egg fight and broke some eggs on one of the cars and didn't wash it off, have you seen what egg will do to a paint job once it's been in the sun all day) 
had to wright 100 times I will not ____.
There are all kinds of things ours have had to do, just depends on what they did. 
and all the other reg every day things, no TV time, no friends, no toys ext..
just depends on what they did.
The world has changed, Heck i remember getting in trouble at a friends house and I'd get whacked there and then get whacked when i got home,lol Same thing at school.
And I'm not that old,lol You just have to do what works for your kid(s) and go on with it.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Any spank was done as a punishment for a definite purposse, something that can't wait for reason, like running into the street. It was done with the pants pulled down, with the hand on the bare bottom. THis way, you give a nice slap that stings, but are less inclined to use more force. I found, because i "never" spanked, that a quick one or two slaps was extremely effective as well as shocking. If you have to use a paddle to get your point across, you need to rethink spanking. A child who is old enough to be reasoned with, or who would understand another punishment, such as being grounded or a time out or having a toy removed, is too old for a spanking.


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## Forty Acres (May 14, 2007)

I am convinced that there is a nerve that runs from the butt to the brains on kids. And occasionally that nerve in the butt needs massaging to make the brain think right. Both of my kids are teenagers now and haven't been spanked in years, but that period surrounding the "terrible two's" they definitely got their share. When both parents are in agreement on punishment and are consistent with said punishment, it will shape and mold the children into young adults that you can be proud of. My daughter is 17, and has a hot miserable summer job that she is extremely proud of (working at a dry cleaners). She is a terrific young lady and is the light of my life. She also teaches a Sunday School class. My 15 year old son is mowing yards during the summer. Neither have ever been in serious trouble. Both are straight "A" students in school. I am not going to knock anybody that chooses not to spank. But in my opinion, a parent needs to conquer the child, one way or another. A child needs to learn fear. And fear will beget respect. It is a lot easier to conquer a two year old than a fifteen year old. Don't bother flaming me - I won't respond.


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## FarmerCop (May 11, 2005)

> P.S. Wow... now I see that you've posted that kids and adults are equals where opnions and choices are concerned and I see that this is hopeless...


HAAA hardly, when they can work pay for their own car and home they might be considere equals as far as adult behavior, human equals yes yes yes.



> I use spanking as the last resort and seem to have more patience in my old age.. LOL But children in my home show respect or they dont receive any


couldn't agree more and I tell my tween this all the time!!!minus the old age part, i haven't settled.




> My dad did spank us and I remember once having the belt used on me and frankly looking back I deserved it! He would talk to us first and by the time he was done I was wanting to be spanked and have it over with.


my mom in my case, dad was a no show,frankly i deserved it too, snuck out my window and stole moms car for a joyride and got caught by her coworkers, she worked for a sheriffs department, imagine that?? i learned REAL quick then
in the case of talking my kids know I will beat a subject to death with talking they practically beg for me to spank them so they can move on.
not that they like it but me giving a speach even the wife asks to get it overwith.






> It is a lot easier to conquer a two year old than a fifteen year old.


tell me how??? i have twin five yr olds, 1) 1 yr old, and a 12 yr old

i get headaches i get so mad at em sometimes, i will say this we do spank, and i believe it works with the methods we apply as well, my 12 yr old is a bit much at times but is now saying she would like to work with the FBI when she comes of age, or the military in inteligence, and she is smart as a whip!!

the twins are my wife made over which she never lives down, my youngest is me now and then, HELPPPPP!!!!!

seriously, religion has no place in my life when it comes to teaching my kids the right thing, I will get flamed for that one, but it is my home and how dare anyone tell me I am wrong, thats the problem i have with the "faithful" so ready to tell me how wrong I live when they can't sweep their own porch.


i have a wonderful family and in spite of my help plea, they ARE kids....... and kids should be taught not idealized and treated as equals,
when a child is treated as an equal that child loses sight of their place and tends to insert themselves in adult scenarios all too often, I SPEAK FROM EXPERIENCE, not an OPINION.

in my career I see so many kids that act out and cause such a problem if they had a spanking it might have saved them or saved the other kids from being shot. (Experience)

this is what happens when you coat bad behavior with sugar, I am not saying all kids grow up this way, but it does not help them either.

as for my kids there is not a day that goes by when they go without hugs, oldest hates kisses, she turns red and well shes a tween, but all of them can't sit 5 minutes without coming to us for hugs and sugar, and I love you's.............and we spank.


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## cjb (May 2, 2006)

We did and do (have older and younger kids).

I think it is more cruel to struggle with a child who's will just needs to be broken then it is to lovingly mete out discipline, have it be over with, then love on them and forgive them. I see far too many parents threaten, bribe and talk their small children into obeying. When that same child is about to run across a busy street - he/she will not listen to his/her parent's voice. I need to know that my kids will obey me so that I can keep them safe.

We do not spank for being childish, but we do for being disobedient or rebellious. We never spank in anger. If one of our children disobeys, we will say "You disobeyed Daddy and will have to have a spanking. Go to my room and wait for me."That always gives us a time to cool down if we're irritated. We have the child look into our eyes and explain to us what they did wrong (to be sure they understand). We spank them the same number of times always, then we turn them around and hold them until they're done crying. We then look back in their eyes and say "Daddy spanked you because I love you and I want you to learn to do the right thing and to follow God". They are asked to apologize and ask forgiveness - they usually do on their own. And we forgive them and pray with them. Then, we don't act angry or annoyed at all anymore.

We have noticed that, when we try grounding or scolding, we cause the child to draw the issue out and become surly. When discipline is quick and loving, they move on and tend to be happier.


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## Kmac15 (May 19, 2007)

my mother gave me some great advice when I had my son "he will one day be bigger than you, make sure he knows who the boss is befor that" Yes we spanked when needed, I fell into the catagory of if it would hurt him, or for defiance. I would prefer to be creative but a termpertantram in walmart, or running into the street is not the time to 'reason' with him. I watched my neighbor raise her kids without spanking and it got the point that I would not let them come to my house, I got tired of her saying 'don't do that' over and over with not result. 

My sister was a teaching assistant in a public kindergarden for 4 years and said she could tell the kids that where raised with no spanking from day one, those were the ones that just looked at her and continued what they were doing when she told them no. They were waiting for the adult to get on their level and 'reason' with them befor they had to really stop.

on a side note. my mom told me yesterday that my nephew 6yrs old was totally acting out at the strore, when she told him to behave or she would spank him he told her she could not because there were cameras around and she would be arrested. She showed him that she could and would do what she thought was best.


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## Jenn (Nov 9, 2004)

I spank one, never needed to spank the other. Probably don't need to spank this one but it gets her attention.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> Example: "Please quit jumping from divan." "Jumping like that will get you hurt." Jump. Crash. "Yep, it sure does hurt to have a broken foot. Maybe you'll listen to me the next time." Next time she listened. Natural consequences.



A swat on the butt to teach her that jumping on the divan is wrong would have been a lot less painful than a broken foot. Sorry, but that statement is almost too hard to believe. You would rather your kid break a foot? Or even worse run out in the street & get hit by a car?? 

I do spank. Not a lot, but when the offense warrants it. If a kid is in immediate danger they need something to catch their attention quick. Letting them get injured from natural consequences is worse than a swat on the butt. Some kids need more than "talking" too. I could talk to my 6 year old all day long & it would go in one ear & out the other. A swat on the butt gets his attention when I need too.

None of my kids are violent & I am often complimented on how well behaved they are. I can take all 7 of them to the store or somewhere in public & not worry about them acting up.


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## Wildwood Flower (Aug 26, 2006)

Some people should never spank their kids--they don't know how to do it. It's just one more thing that is added to their bag of ineffective parenting skills. 

I rarely spanked my kids--but they knew I would, and so did I. My rule: I never repeated myself. 

I agree, children should not be brought up to believe that they have a say-so about every little thing that comes around. Children need to learn to OBEY their parents....unfortunately, that' cannot be covered in a paragraph or two.


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## matt633 (Apr 11, 2007)

cjb said:


> We did and do (have older and younger kids).
> 
> I think it is more cruel to struggle with a child who's will just needs to be broken then it is to lovingly mete out discipline, have it be over with, then love on them and forgive them. I see far too many parents threaten, bribe and talk their small children into obeying. When that same child is about to run across a busy street - he/she will not listen to his/her parent's voice. I need to know that my kids will obey me so that I can keep them safe.
> 
> ...



Ditto....especially about becoming surly - I have really noticed it when we used to send them to their room, it was like they wallowed in the sin, instead of being punished, forgiven, and done w/ it! Plus we try to never spank w/ our hands. I believe the Bible teaches us to use the "rod" of correction so that they associate that as the tool of punishment/training and not our hand. As parents, we prefer to be seen as the tool of forgiveness and love, and be a model for what our Heavenly Father is to us!

DISCLAIMER: If you don't agree, don't attack....I am not attacking anyone else...when I say "I believe the Bible teaches" that is because that is what OUR FAMILY chooses to live by. We aren't pushing it on anyone.

Rachael


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

I spanked, not as the last resort, but the first line of defense for defiance, willful disobedience, lying, stealing and serious disrespect. The rules, rewards and consequences were never hidden from the children and they always knew it was coming. After the spanking is the time to talk about repentence and forgiveness.

I never used my hand and I don't spank a child under the age of 3, except once. I used paint stir sticks except on the youngest, who preferred the "Behave" bamboo spoon she made in children's church, decorated with a pompom bee and obedience scripture written on it. Some folks thought it unatural when I asked DD what the consequences to that behavior was, she knew she needed a spanking and would bring the discipline spoon to me, lean over the sofa with her hands tucked under. 

Eventually, they outgrew the rarely used spanking spoon and paint stick and they wanted to know if they were too big to spank, as they were itching to go wild. The next day I hung up a 5 gallon size paint stick, I've never had to use it.

My children and I have a lot of fun together, we are close and they are close to each other. There is love and respect all the way around. None of us want to waste our time on B.S. but move on to fun things. We have no time for brats.


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## Queen Bee (Apr 7, 2004)

When my children were small, I spanked them--when all else failed. They knew the limits and only 'pushed' them once in a blue moon... My dh only had to 'talk' to them and it broke their heart 'that dad was disappointed in them'. Our children knew what was expected of them. We always made sure they understood and there was no exceptions--not even when they were in college! It also helps that their dad is 6'7" and weighs almost 300lbs!


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## RachAnn in NW Okla (Aug 28, 2002)

we spank. we have a wtrong-willed 6yo and a copycat 2yo....the 2 yo gets his feelings hurt more easily so usually a harsh word works.....with the 6yo OTOH, whoooweeeee....I was tired of being embarrassed by her in public....we started at home....sample scenerio: 

she slapped her brother....was told to go to her room....she went but came right back down....I gave her a warning and said that she was to go back to her room and I was going to start counting swats....she tried me and when she was finally obeying I had to deal out 23 swats....now they had to be light ones because that many on a small surface will hurt.....

now out in public, she gets 2 warnings--the first is a 'stop it' type of warning....the next one is an "I am not telling you again, I am just gonna start counting..." then the entire time we are in public I count....as soon as we are home I remind her that she has swats coming.....as I give them, I tell her what they were for...."this one is when you wandered away and I thought I lost you" These 2 are for hitting your brother" etc

she very seldom cries...then I tell her that I love her but I dont like it when she is bad

I have a friend with an unruly child....we were at the mall and her threat was "do you want me to call your Daddy?" well she called and he said "what do you wnat me to do"....she had called there was no consequence....he continued to act up....when we left she got him a balloon from a store.....when it repeatedly came into the driver area as she was trying to drive, I was sorely tempted to follow through on her "do you want me to throw it out the window" threat....she said "no give it back I dont want to here him cry over it"

Rachel


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## ColumbiaSC. (Nov 25, 2005)

booklover said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with being a fad or being afraid of "abuse". I think that people are learning that kids get a lot more from talking than they do from spanking and following that, learning that there are ways to parent other than hitting. Spanking teaches one thing... do what I say or you get physically hurt. I honestly think that spanking is the easy way out. It takes a lot of time and thought to crouch down to your kids' levels and really explain the situation.
> 
> I don't spank because I don't believe in violence toward my fellow man. If I were to strike an adult, I would get arrested for it. What makes it okay to strike a child or baby? But yeah, it takes a lot more time, a lot more parenting, and much, much more attention to *not* spank than to do so. I have spent hours... literally... in a single day going over why something is appropriate or not. Yes, I lose my temper, I've yelled. But hitting is never an option.
> 
> ...



I know why you do not spank,, you are too busy hugging that 'tree'. 
I am happy for you that your kids are so well behaved and you have so much time on your hands to do Dr.Phill on them,,I only spank mine when we are tierd of consistant bad behavior...I am proud of my wife yesterday, I heard a swat from the other room, about the only time I know of... 
I spank our 2 kids (5 and 8) 1-2 times a month maybe, a total combined if needed,,, this was DW's 1'st time I know of ever! I am a corner sitting dad, and you can't do this fun thing for a few days dad as well. Behind spankings (openend handed only) get results when nothing else does!


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## RachAnn in NW Okla (Aug 28, 2002)

forgot to add:

when my DH's little brother (younger by 10yrs) was younger....my MIL would tell him that they were going to go to the bathroom for a chat....Zach knew that it would be a chat between her hand and his butt

Rachel


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## DixyDoodle (Nov 15, 2005)

> Spanking teaches one thing... do what I say or you get physically hurt. I honestly think that spanking is the easy way out. It takes a lot of time and thought to crouch down to your kids' levels and really explain the situation.
> 
> I don't spank because I don't believe in violence toward my fellow man. If I were to strike an adult, I would get arrested for it. What makes it okay to strike a child or baby? But yeah, it takes a lot more time, a lot more parenting, and much, much more attention to *not* spank than to do so.


Just curious, how many children do you have? And please explain how to reason with a one year old in a way that makes them do exactly what you want at all times? 

See, the reason some people choose to give a spank is because little kids are not university scholars. You can only reason so far with a child that thinks that walking in the middle of the road is ok. That putting their hand in a fire is ok. That throwing a temper tantrum because mommy won't buy them a toy is perfectly acceptable. Sometimes you cannot reason with a child....because they are screaming at the top of their lungs in a store, and sorry, but children do not just stop doing that if you, for example, threaten to take toys away. Sometimes they need a more stern attention getter.

And no, I don't mean an all-out beating. I mean one good whack on the butt. 

Perhaps you would be more likely to agree to this kind of parenting?:


> Example: "Please quit jumping from divan." "Jumping like that will get you hurt." Jump. Crash. "Yep, it sure does hurt to have a broken foot. Maybe you'll listen to me the next time." Next time she listened. Natural consequences.


I hope this person does not bring their children to my house. I don't care to have her kids swinging from the ceiling 50 times until they get hurt and "learn their lesson". It's behaviour like this that goes on a lot these days because parents do not want to take responsiblity for being the bad guy sometimes and making their children mind. A kind of laid-back, "no interference" approach, a "get burned and learn" concept. What happened to a parent being there to guide, teach, and protect? What I think the above is teaching is that "you can do what you want, sometimes you might get hurt, but lots more times you won't. If it feels good, take a chance and do it."

See, there are lots of times where kids will run wild and NOT learn anything from it....they will continue unwanted behaviour because they are allowed to and it serves their purpose. Do you recall being a child and getting "the lecture"? How many times did you walk away and think to yourself "whatever".


> I am convinced that there is a nerve that runs from the butt to the brains on kids. And occasionally that nerve in the butt needs massaging to make the brain think right.


LOL I can't say as everytime I did something bad that I thought beforehand about the spanking I would get if caught, but the spanking sure did make an impression later that what I did was not acceptable. Lectures just didn't impress on me that much, more like what someone else mentioned, the old Charlie Brown teacher/parent: wah wah wah.


> i have a wonderful family and in spite of my help plea, they ARE kids....... and kids should be taught not idealized and treated as equals,
> when a child is treated as an equal that child loses sight of their place and tends to insert themselves in adult scenarios all too often


I sooo agree! Too many kids thinking, "I can do what I want, when I want, I have rights, and you can't stop me, or I'll call the police on you." Kids have to realize that they are NOT adults and we are, and it is up to US to decide what they are allowed to do. If kids were allowed to just do what feels good and have no repurcussions, then what kind of world would we be living in? But then I guess we are finding out, arent we?


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

Columbia said:


> I know why you do not spank,, you are too busy hugging that 'tree'.
> I am happy for you that your kids are so well behaved and you have so much time on your hands to do Dr.Phill on them


  And hugging my kid when not hugging that tree. I don't mind being called a tree-hugger. What an honor!

And it's not Dr. Phil... it's Dr. Sears that first put the label on Attachment Parenting and Gentle Discipline. His book is called "Gentle Discipline". There is also a book by Hillary Flowers called "Adventures in Gentle Discipline", and another good one, "How to Talk so Your Kids will Listen, and How to Listen so Your Kids will Talk."

Tree hugging and Gentle Discipline works for us. As I said, I'm not trying to convince anyone, just show that there is another side of discipline (which means to "teach")... not punishing and hitting, but connecting and teaching.

An example of GD at work came up just last night: We had a looooong day with contractors who were installing our new front living room window. Dd was pretty much ignored all day and told to stay out of the way (which she did). We went out for Greek, which is a favorite of hers, as a treat. Afterwards, we stopped at Lowes to order the shade for the new window and pick up a temporary shade. It had been a long day, she was tired, and it was taking forever because there was only 1 clerk. Dd finds a pole right in the middle of the aisle and starts spinning around it:

Me: Honey, please stop.
DD: nothing
Me: I asked you to please stop. You are going to hit someone.
DD: Okay, mommy.

(2 minutes later... back to the pole)

Me: I already told you to not do that. Are you tired?
Dd: No, just bored.
Me: Well, we're almost through here. Please be patient.
Dd: (In a whining voice) I want to go home. I can't be patient.
Me: (to the clerk) Please excuse me for just a second.

I took about 15 seconds to squat down and talk to dd. I told her that I appreciated it when she is patient, but she wasn't showing any patience at all. I told her that if she ran into someone going around the pole, it would hurt them and her and that's why it was unacceptable. Then I said, "If you cannot mind when we do things like this, you won't be able to come with us next time. Now... will you help me pick out the color for our new shade?"

And it was fine for the next 10 minutes while we talked about the different shades and dd gave her input, as well. So, just by figuring out that if I got her involved in the process, and really listened to her opinion, she listened to me, stayed out of trouble and we got through it painlessly.

That's an example of gentle discipline instead of just saying, "Stop it or I'm going to bust your butt when we get home".

In all honestly, it's just that I am following my mothering heart and doing what feels right for our family.

Every family has to do what feels right for them. (And I will bow out of the discussion at this point as I feel like a salmon swimming against the current and the current is winning.  ) Peace to everyone.


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

I never spanked my kids, never needed to. I stayed with them most of the time and guided them in a their choices and thinking. I don't think they are too messed up because of it!!!


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## cricket (Dec 15, 2004)

Spank? Not really... Swatted several times though. I refer to spank as the formal "get-the-switch-grab-your-ankles" scenario. A swat on the other hand, is immediate and firm enough to get attention but not leave marks.I didn't swat either of mine after they were around 7 or 8 though. Who is the "guru" of christian families?...Dodson? When mine were little we went to a seminar by him and he said it doesn't do any good to spank or swat after that age. I've found it to be true in our case. Once the kids got a little older, talking to them and taking away privileges works much better.


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## Seeria (Jul 21, 2006)

My mother used to spank us with belts, hands, wooden spoons with holes in 'em. Oddly enough I still don't see it as abusive. She did it only when we did something morally wrong or something that endangered our lives or that of others. 

With my own, they've only been spanked a few times in there life. The time when our youngest thought it would be neat to take a midnight stroll into the city while we all slept, 2 am. He was six. (did similar when he was 3.) Twice when each continued to walk in front of moving cars. Spanking didn't stop the stepping in front of moving cars bit but putting them on leashes when they were that small sure did. 

Is it a fad to not spank or to spank? Doesn't seem so. More likely it's due to the parental concepts of the time. Is it good to spank or not good? Individual question there. For me it does not good for them or me but I know it sure worked wonders on my nephew. 

It would be good to see all of human civilation move onto a more gentle, peaceful way of raising our young. But I don't see that happening before the world gets wiped out.


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## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

DixyDoodle said:


> And please explain how to reason with a one year old in a way that makes them do exactly what you want at all times?


No child (or adult) does exactly what someone else want all the time. That is an unrealistic expectation and guarantees disappointment and frustration.

A one year old's vocabulary is not adequate for reasoning. Thus you have to find another way to deal with the infraction. 

I didn't spank, but I did try my darndest to make the punishment "match" the offense. I don't like any knee-jerk, one-size-fits-all, no-thought-required punishment.


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## nomad7inwi (Nov 30, 2005)

I did spank my now 13 year old once when he was 3 because he kept playing with knives. As I've gotten older and more experience and more patient I have not found the need to spank. I have wanted to because I was angry and frustrated, not because the child was going to learn anything from that form of discipline. I'm not saying that I will never spank again. I hope I don't need to. Mostly because I hope to have enough other options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DixyDoodle
And please explain how to reason with a one year old in a way that makes them do exactly what you want at all times? 

You don't reason with a one year old, but you don't spank them either. They are 1. They don't reason and they don't put together that if I do this I get spanked. You remove the baby from the situation and engage them in something appropriate. My youngest is now 2. He just now has the ability to see that his actions have consequences.

I think the key here is what someone else posted "a child needs to be parented". Some parents are adamant about not spanking. Its not the lack of spanking that is causing the problems for that family, its the lack of discipline. So many of us were brought up with spanking as our only discipline we don't know how to discipline without it. So yes these parents plead, and beg and then ignore because they do not know what else to do. In the same vein some parents spank for the same reason. Some parents spank simply because they are frustrated or they don't know of any other means for discipline. So rather than not discipling they spank. Most of you here don't seem to fall into either category as you seem to have well thought out reasons for what you do. Discipline can happen in many ways, and that is what is critical, discipline & teaching.

An emotional issue because we all are trying, or tried, to do the best job we could with our children.


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## MarleneS (Aug 21, 2003)

I've seen spanking stop an action for a short period in time, making me think it was the pain the child wished to change not the action which caused it...I suppose there are those who believe the fear of the pain keeping the child from repeating an action is a good thing. 

I hate the idea of teaching a child that when you are not having your way, or someone else is not letting you control them the answer is to inflict pain upon the offender.

Personally, I'm one of those nutcases who thinks as a parent it's your job to take the time, no matter how much, and the effort, whatever that effort requires, and figure out what or why your child is doing whatever it is they are doing you think justifies their getting spanked. Along with a timeout as a consequence for disapproved behavior.

For those of you who have the rule that you only spank after all else has failed, how exactly do you define all else? Does it mean, I've told them 5,7,10,100 times and they still choose to not follow my orders? Does it require that your orders come with explanations as to why they should not do the things you are willing to spank them over? Just hoping to change my mind that whenever I've seen a child get spanked it always appeared to be when the parent was fustrated over their lack of control over said child's actions.

I do remember as a child preferring a spanking (a couple of swats on the backside by my mother), to the alternative of a lecture and being sent to a quiet spot to sit and think about what was taught and the consequences for not following the rules. 

Marlene


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## MarleneS (Aug 21, 2003)

Snugglebunny said:


> Around here, nothing ALWAYS works... not spanking, corners, talking, time-outs, removal of privaleges... nothing always works. I try to discipline according to the wrong. Spanking is usually a result of more serious behavior - lying, hitting or pushing, or when a child is simply refusing to listen for a long period of time. We expect our boys to listen to direction the first time.


Snugglebunny, is there any possiblity that your being inconsistent in your defination of punishment is contributing to your children being inconsistent in their responses?

marlene


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## matt633 (Apr 11, 2007)

MarleneS said:


> Personally, I'm one of those nutcases who thinks as a parent it's your job to take the time, no matter how much, and the effort, whatever that effort requires, and figure out what or why your child is doing whatever it is they are doing you think justifies their getting spanked. Along with a timeout as a consequence for disapproved behavior.
> 
> For those of you who have the rule that you only spank after all else has failed, how exactly do you define all else? Does it mean, I've told them 5,7,10,100 times and they still choose to not follow my orders? Does it require that your orders come with explanations as to why they should not do the things you are willing to spank them over? Just hoping to change my mind that whenever I've seen a child get spanked it always appeared to be when the parent was fustrated over their lack of control over said child's actions.
> 
> ...



I must agree. I think what the large majority of people who are against spanking see is what you said, "frustrated parents" who just swing at their kids in hopes of being "authoritive". That gets my craw! I do spank, and don't personally care for timeout...as I said earlier I like to get the punishment done w/, forgive and forget. BUt, I do think it is VERY important to know your kids, spend time w/ them, and keep them busy so that they don't have as much time to get into trouble. I like that saying, "Busy kids are happy kids". I feel that if you spend time enjoying your relationship w/ your kids, they are going to WANT to do what you say, just as a Christian obeys God's commands b/c they love Him.

All in all the result is LESS need to spank. I have a 10 yr old DD that has probably been spanked less than 10 times in her whole life. I have a very strongwilled DS6 that I can't count how many (it takes alot more to keep his hands busy, and sometimes I wear out before he does..LOL) times he has been spanked. But it is only a few times a week, maybe.

And our switching is not to inflict pain (maybe a little sting), but more of a stop-everything-and-bend-over-and-lets-talk-about-what-you-did-and-why-we-don't-do-that-and-how-we-are-going-to-keep-from-doing-it-again, then forgive, then hug, then go cook supper together.

But, again, Marlene..I agree - it is about being consistent. We don't have ALOT of rules to bog the kids down with. It all really boils down to loving and respecting others and property. They are reminded when they are getting out of "range" and they are switched for defiance, the end. They understand it b/c it is simple. It also keeps me from being one of those frustrated, swinging parents who probably has a sore arm b/c I know my job.

my 2 cent, Rachael


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## blue8ewe (Oct 25, 2006)

booklover said:


> And hugging my kid when not hugging that tree. I don't mind being called a tree-hugger. What an honor!
> 
> And it's not Dr. Phil... it's Dr. Sears that first put the label on Attachment Parenting and Gentle Discipline. His book is called "Gentle Discipline". There is also a book by Hillary Flowers called "Adventures in Gentle Discipline", and another good one, "How to Talk so Your Kids will Listen, and How to Listen so Your Kids will Talk."
> 
> ...



This is fine in some situations. I go to the store with my tribe. Almost always. My youngest can get pretty board after 2 hours of walking isles. We get to the check out and they start getting into stuff. Older kids are helping with babies, sorting food to go one the counter belt. Taking others to the bathroom. So here is our approach. 
I tell you once to stay by me, hold the cart. If they refuse to do so it is a swat for disobedience. They are entirely capable at 4 and 3 to do as tey are told because they are told. 
WHY should there always be a discussion time to stop every ones time to explain why I gave an order? If I say stop, they had darn well better stop! Or that car is going to plow them over.
If I stay "stay by the cart" they had darn well better do it or that kidnapper is going to get his/her prime opportunity. 
Kids must learn fast to do as they are told and ask questions later. (now of course we are talking orders from me dad or older siblings..... we are not refering to do what anyone says when it comes to inappropriate actions....and they do know the difference) 
The biggest challenge I have as a mother of many is to protect them for them selves (in disobedience) and protect them from others that would take advantage of their innocence. 
Obedience! I demand it. I get it. 
Of course we do other punishments. Like they have to sit in the cart instead of walking. They have to hold a hand. ( I completely realize that at 3 and 4 their attention spans are short but to immediately disobey a direct order is simply because they thought they could get away with it. I teach them promptly that they can not.)

Off to go shopping.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

blue8ewe said:


> Obedience! I damned it. I get it.


Funniest typo EVER! :rotfl: I bet there are days like that, lol.

(not to take anything away from your post, I thought you made many good points)


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## blue8ewe (Oct 25, 2006)

Example: "Please quit jumping from divan." "Jumping like that will get you hurt." Jump. Crash. "Yep, it sure does hurt to have a broken foot. Maybe you'll listen to me the next time." Next time she listened. Natural consequences. 




A swat on the butt to teach her that jumping on the divan is wrong would have been a lot less painful than a broken foot. Sorry, but that statement is almost too hard to believe. You would rather your kid break a foot? Or even worse run out in the street & get hit by a car?? 

{And a lot less expencive. No life long health problems. And the child just might be able to function in real life when they are give an order at work. 
I feel that first statement is heartless. Why would it be acceptable to let a child experience breaking a bone to teach them a lesson? Feeling good just because you are not the one that delivered the pain? 
Even if I were not a spanker that I would have set the child to their room untill they were ready to comply.
To many "natural consequences" are exactly what we are trying to protect them from.}


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## blue8ewe (Oct 25, 2006)

jen74145 said:


> Funniest typo EVER! :rotfl: I bet there are days like that, lol.
> 
> (not to take anything away from your post, I thought you made many good points)


OK, its early. It even took me a few moments to see what was so funny. LOL
That dratted spell check. LOL


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

I think the reason spanking works is because sometimes you can't get the message across in any other way that they will understand. EXAMPLE : Its easier for a kid to understand that if they disobey you they will get spanked than to get them to understand that running across a street is a danger too them. Kids sometimes can't see the danger but, knowing if they disobey leads too a spanking, will help keep them safe, at least till they do see the danger. Then one day they will see that our love for them is why we did and when our grand kids come along our kids will show their love for them that way too. BUT THEY BETTER NOT SPANK THEM TO HARD OR THEY WILL GET ONE TOO. LOL :angel:


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## longshot38 (Dec 19, 2006)

never enough to leave a mark and only for the most serious of offenses. more just a swat on the but or on the fingers just enough to emphasis the point that that action was bad, not that he is a bad kid just his actions were bad.


dean


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## okiemom (May 12, 2002)

I din't get to read all of the responses but after reading vegas cowgirls response I had to respond. I too hate the "no,no, Johnny" mom. I really want to slap her instead of the kids. she is the problem. :flame: 

Yes, I have spanked. Normally, I try to do anything else first, but when I am driving 65 on the highway and the boys are in back getting louder and louder and then throwing things and have not responded to my request to keep it down and I am driving in heavy traffic, I will pull over and swat them. I will not kill other families because my boys wont listen to me when I say, "throwing stuff and screaming in the car in not tolerated!" My brother gave a "time out" to his in a tahoe while driving to see our GF. Please tell me what that was to do?! Again I wanted to slap hime instead. 

I do try to give them good reasons when I tell them to do something. Please, don't do xxx because yyy will happen and it scares me. Sometimes that won't work and all the feel good loving "talk" won't do it like a quick swat. 

Sometimes I don't have 5 min to explain why I want them to do something for me they just need to do it and do it now!!!! I need to be able to trust them that they will move, stop or come to safty when I direct it. A copperhead in our garden is not going to wait to strike until I am over my feel good talk. I need to boys to respond NOW! Same thing if they want to be around any eq. They need to be able to do as told. Otherwise injury or death could occure. 

I would rather have to explain why I give swats than why my child is dead because they wouldn't stop, for the car they didn't see, when I asked.


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## cjb (May 2, 2006)

I disagree with the poster that claimed that spanking is the 'easy way out' because it takes longer then reasoning with your child. I can't tell you how many times I have to make myself go and take care of the issue the right way (direct discipline) and how much easier it would be to warn, cajole and "reason".

Kids thrive when they know that they are bring parented not "befriended" by their parents. Kids that play in a playground with no fence around it will huddle in the middle. Kids in a playground that is fenced will play across the entire space. This has been proven. The same principles apply with respect to discipline. When I child understands what he can and cannot do and what the consequences are for doing the latter, he can be joyful and free to do the right thing.

I grew up in a very abusive family and really hated spanking my kids at first. However, I have come to see that it is the kindest, most loving and most effective way to deal with direct disobedience.

I do understand the concept of natural consequences for older kids and we allow and sometimes "facillitate" that ;-) For teenagers, we let the punishment fit the crime. If they act up because they obviously have too much energy - they run the 500', steep driveway. If they have a bad attitude about work, they get more "practise" having a good attitude with work, etc.

Good topic, by the way.


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## MicheleMomof4 (Jul 17, 2002)

booklover said:


> That's an example of gentle discipline instead of just saying, "Stop it or I'm going to bust your butt when we get home".


Just because I spank does not mean I don't get down on the level of a child, speak to them and try to figure out why they are doing what they are doing. I also don't say, Stop or I'm whipping you." The only difference in the whole situation is that I don't give them multiple warnings. I find that if I say it 3 or 4 times before I do something, then that just trains them not to listen until I say it 3 or 4 times. If I ask them to stop and they don't, then a consequence is needed. Depending on the situation and level of disobedience , the consequence can means a number of things not just a swat. 
If you find your asking more than once to a child to stop a behavior....then chances are they are already tuning you out.
God Bless,
Michele


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## MicheleMomof4 (Jul 17, 2002)

cjb said:


> I do understand the concept of natural consequences for older kids and we allow and sometimes "facillitate" that ;-) For teenagers, we let the punishment fit the crime. If they act up because they obviously have too much energy - they run the 500', steep driveway. If they have a bad attitude about work, they get more "practise" having a good attitude with work, etc.


Exactly what we do with the 15 year old here as well. Works well. 
God Bless,
Michele


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## DixyDoodle (Nov 15, 2005)

Maybe we should have a new word to use instead of "spanking"? From a lot of the posts, it seems that "spanking" is equated with repeatedly hitting a child until they scream or something? Me, I just give them one "attention-getter" with the palm of my hand and this only after I have resorted to other "more rational" methods. But sometimes a smaller child doesn't get " intellectual reasonings" anymore than they understand that they really can't just do what they want when they want to. And sometimes a quick response is going to make a more concrete impression than waiting til one gets home and the child has pretty much forgotten what they've done wrong.


> For those of you who have the rule that you only spank after all else has failed, how exactly do you define all else?


It depends on the age of the child in my case, but generally, they get a verbal warning of what WILL happen if they don't behave, then either a time out, warning look, or second warning that "this is the last time I warn you". And then they get the punishment, usually either a toy is taken away, they don't get something they were looking forward to (a trip to McD's perhaps) or a trip to bed. If the offence is something like a temper tantrum that doesn't stop or a dangerous situation (something requiring immediate action), it might be that crack on the butt with my hand. Later on, we will have a discussion about it. "Do you know why you got a spank? Or why you are in your bed", etc? Sometimes they will say "I forget".  

And young children often don't care if something scares their mommy, or hurts other people. They don't have the conscience or empathy that an older child does. Young kids are very self-serving at times.

As my kids get older (one is now 9) the "swat" ceases, as they are now old enough to deal with punishments that are more "cerebral". ie, no tv, no nintendo, no friends over, extra chores, no car, no computer. But a toddler wouldn't understand that kind of stuff if you wait 3 hours later to do something about their behaviour, chances are they've forgotten and moved on to happier events. 

When I was a child, it was common for my mom to give me a spanking (ok, sorta common, I wasn't that bad often), and I mean a real spanking, for being bad. It might have been from a hand or a flyswatter. My mom had one of those paddles you're referring to. It was wooden and in the shape of a hand, and said Mom's Helper on it. She never used it, but it was always hanging ominously in the closet.

Lots of kids in the neighburhood got a yardstick or their Dad's leather belt across the bare butt. I also recall kids in school getting those nylon yard sticks across the knuckles. 

I originally wasn't going to spank my kids ever. But I came to the realization that children are not little adults in kids clothes and sometimes you just cannot reason with them the same way. Sometimes they seem to need something a little more earth-shaking. Is it comparable to an animal in the wild when they give their young a quick nip when they are acting up? Yeah, I know, we are superior to animals, right......but....... :shrug:


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## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

I spank a child too young for reasoning (age 2-4 years). If they are putting themselves in danger, or hurting someone else, I want them to REMEMBER it is bad BEFORE they decide to do it again. The older kids, I would say 6 and up, just resent you for the spanking, when a good reprimand, or "I am disappointed in you " speech is much more effective. Its always nice to have luxuries to take away as well. That, they really hate ( ie. nintendo).


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## tiffnzacsmom (Jan 26, 2006)

I have two and they have been spanked at times, either for willfullness or extreme danger. My daughter is very stubborn and knows exactly what button to push where, she has gotten spanked more than her younger brother because of it. She is 11 and tries to act much older, when she gets bad she needs a quick refresher that she is the child, I am the parent and she will listen to me. My son is 9 and is much more easy going but then he thinks he can manipulate me with tears it worked for the family that used to watch them for me so for some reason he thinks it works with me too. He does better with being sent to his room. Different kids, different reactions, different responses.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

booklover said:


> And it was fine for the next 10 minutes while we talked about the different shades and dd gave her input, as well. So, just by figuring out that if I got her involved in the process, and really listened to her opinion, she listened to me, stayed out of trouble and we got through it painlessly.
> 
> That's an example of gentle discipline instead of just saying, "Stop it or I'm going to bust your butt when we get home".


In public and normally at home I just use The Dad voice 
"Enough!" or " Sit Down Now"
Has some interesting results in public , like adult suddenly sitting and looking guilty  
Ive even used it one strangers children in stores . One poor lady at witts end with her little boy thanked me .

Another time at wal-mart my daughter was walking with me and a little boy was on the floor kicking and screaming in a tantrum . She went up to the boys grand pa and said pointing at the boy "he need a spankin" 

yeap Im a mean daddy and terribly abuse my poor children why they get a swat when they do something they know is wrong, they get a cold shower if they trow a tantrum . Though neither often They both know when dad says enough they pushed as far as they are going to .
I fully understand the line between a swat and abuse .


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## Job's3dAnswer (Oct 17, 2004)

I had to vote for no spanking. With DD's disorder, including a decreased sensitivity to pain, I don't think she'd really understand. Not that she doesn't know when she's doing something she shouldn't. But she's just so laid back and easy to please, that we don't have to worry about it.



One of my Brothers, the only one that has kids besides me, went 180 degrees the other way. His then -wife took me down to the depths of the basement one day where no one could hear her, and told me that he had gotten so mad at her daughter --his Step-daughter that he spanked her. But he had spanked her so hard he left a handprint on her Bottom. Soon after they divorced, she remarried, and the girl was adopted by her new husband.


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## DixyDoodle (Nov 15, 2005)

> So rather than not discipling they spank.


Some would say that spanking ---or giving a quick swat---IS disciplining. It's just that some people's definition is different. Is it just coincidence that many parents are so permissive now, that kids have no respect for anyone? Maybe, but maybe not.


> The older kids, I would say 6 and up, just resent you for the spanking, when a good reprimand, or "I am disappointed in you " speech is much more effective. Its always nice to have luxuries to take away as well. That, they really hate ( ie. nintendo).


I agree. Younger kids don't get that. There is nothing more frustrating than listening to a parent trying to "reason" with a toddler....over and over and over.....and meanwhile the child is still carrying on in public. Older kids get it because they can think farther into the future and in the abstract, a young child lives for the "now".

Job, in your situation, obviously what the child got was not a spanking, it was abuse. People are still equating "spanking" with "throw you down and leave permanent marks" and I think that is a mistaken interpretation.


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

Gosh DixieDoodle... I just have to jump back in here (although I said I wouldn't) and quash this myth you keep repeating about non-spanking parents.

Just because we don't spank doesn't mean that we let our kids do whatever they want. They are not out of control. Some are, yes, but it has nothing to do with the fact that we don't spank. Most of the time, you don't even notice our children because gentle parents are raising kids to be gentle children and they don't attract much attention.

The fact is, most of the kids I see in public that are totally out of control are being told, "Boy are you going to get your hide tanned when we get home." Threat, threat, threat, threat, and the kid isn't listening because they haven't been TAUGHT to listen... just to anticipate the hit. What kid is going to mind when they know that whatever they do is going to produce the same result... a spanking? Let's milk this punishment for all we can.

Not spanking does NOT equal not parenting. It does not equal kids being out of control in public or at home. Please quit saying this. It's simply not true.


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## mamalisa (Feb 1, 2004)

booklover said:


> Gosh DixieDoodle... I just have to jump back in here (although I said I wouldn't) and quash this myth you keep repeating about non-spanking parents.
> 
> Just because we don't spank doesn't mean that we let our kids do whatever they want. They are not out of control. Not spanking does NOT equal not parenting. It does not equal kids being out of control in public or at home. Please quit saying this. It's simply not true.



Ok...you just told us about your kid swinging on a pole at Lowe's. Twice. Mine would not have done that past one warning. Another quote was about jumping off the furniture until the kid broke a foot. 

Not spanking doesn't equal not parenting, but allowing your children to get hurt or hurt someone else because you want the child to experience natural consequences does.

"oops honey don't run in the road---splat!'' I personally think getting run over is a bit harsh of a consequence, myself........


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## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

If you dont spank, and your kids are well behaved and listen thoroughly and politly CONGRATULATIONS!!! You did it! But I dont think you exist. SORRY =( 
I have not ever met a non-spanker with even mildly well behaved kids. Well, they all think their kids are great, but they are usually manipulative little snots. JMHO, dont shoot (haha)


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

I don't think you guys are understanding what I'm saying. My fault.

"Swing on a pole". She grabs with her hand and as she is looking at her feet, she leans out a little and walks around the pole. Maypole-style. I don't mean literally "swinging". She would never, ever, ever do something like jump up, grab a pole (with her feet off the floor) and swing on it in public. At home... I ENCOURAGE it. She is one strong little gal and I like to see her get exercise. She is a really lean, agile kid. I'm not going to hold her back. But she is also polite and mannerly. Notice that without spanking or threats, she understood why going around the pole was not a good idea (hurt someone else potentially) and was happy to occupy herself with helping us. I see many kids who get spanking threats just go ahead and do what they want. Why quit if they are just going to get punished? A spank is a spank.

Jumping from the ottoman. She jumped all of 2 times. Are you telling me that spanked kids don't jump off of things? Ever? They never grab a pole with their arm and go around it to try to get dizzy. Oh my goodness!! You've all convinced me. Today I start spanking.

You know, I think what bothers me the most is that those of you who spank haven't even tried to understand gentle discipline. Doggonit!!!! Just because I don't spank doesn't mean I haven't talked to dd 100 times about the dangers in life!! You're right... I am NOT going to put her in a padded cell to keep her from getting hurt. I'm going to let her swing as high as she wants on her swingset. I'm going to let her play with sticks. I'm going to let her climb over fences. I'm going to let her roam the garden. I am going to let her jump from the rock to the ground. Yes, she will get hurt. Yes, she will learn a lesson. But I TALK to her all the time. I just choose to not spank her. If she's in the garden and I tell her to get out of the cucumbers... I'm not going to spank her if she doesn't immediately comply. At 5, it's just NORMAL BEHAVIOR to go about your business. But I will talk to her why she should be careful among the vines. And next time she goes out there, she'll remember and she'll mind. And when she was 3, I probably would have had to talk to her about 12 times before she remembered. It's NORMAL behavior!

Running into the road... how in the world can spanking be better than talking? "Don't ever run into the road again!!" <HIT> Okay... the kid is now wondering, "was it the running?", "was it the road", "why am I being punished". Instead, dd has never ran into the road because we TALK about it quite often. We talk about what could happen.

Ultimately, it boils down to this:

"_In 1998, the American Academy of Pediatrics concluded that the negative consequences of corporal punishment outweigh any benefits, and that parents should not spank._ A growing number of countries, including Austria, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Iceland, Israel, Latvia and Norway, have outlawed corporal punishment. These countries report no adverse consequences to the move, and the consensus is that the ban is a good idea."


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## Snugglebunny (Oct 20, 2004)

There is a delicate balance to be had with parenting, between understanding a child's natural, God-given nature, the desire and necessity of teaching, as well as proper discipline.

All out, knee-jerk spanking doesn't work - it just puts the child in defense-mode. Just listening doesn't work, then the child learns manipulation. Just working with his/her nature doesn't work, then it's the parent being trained, not the child, and the child grows up selfish.

A balance is required, as the old saying goes 'All things in moderation'.

When we're in the store looking at grown-up stuff, it's to be expected that the kids are likely to get bored and misbehave. Anticipate that, try to prevent it. If things continue, find an appropriate consequence - like having to go back in the shopping cart, or losing the privalege of going to the toy section. If things continue further, endanger the child, or begin becoming a nuisance to other shoppers, a whop or two on the bum is likely required. If it continues beyond that, it's time to go home.

Honestly, I don't think we're all far off from each other on this. I think we're all basically saying the same things but in different ways. We all agree that knee jerk, smacking your child over-and-over on the bum is not a good idea, that there are other better ways to parent adn teach your child.

But if you choose not to spank, you need to have a similar immediate, equally-effective consequence for the younger child who can't yet understand reasoning or 'what might happen if'. Immediate removal from the situation and placement in a chair within arm's reach of you, or being put in a corner, whatever, but it has to be swift, consistant and effective.

I choose to spank when the situation warrants it because when I get stressed, frustrated and upset I can often not think of a different and equally effective punishment. I pick them up, give them a whop on the butt, then tell them what was wrong and why, and that if they do it again they'll lose whatever they were fighting over.

But I have learned that 8 times out of 10 the boys willl work out the situation without my interference - we've taught them to talk things out, respect others, and apologize to each other. But I won't hesitate to spank on the rare occasion I find DS6 throwing a block at DS5, or DS5 hurting DS6.


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## MarleneS (Aug 21, 2003)

As unrealistic and nonunderstanding as it will likely sound to any and all parents, I think your first thought when a child misbehaves or is placed in danger is to ask yourself where you have failed as a parent.

I've often hear, "You can't be with a child 24/7." -- I beg to differ, if your child has not reached the age where they understand the dangers of running out into the street - then you are another trustworthy person should be there 24/7. Truth is, if your child runs out into the street because you were tending to it's baby sibling etc. etc. - it is you who has failed not the child.

If you mistake your childs abilities and they are harmed - it is you not them that have failed.

Sure, I'll agree, a quick swat out of love and caring isn't likely to do a great deal of harm to a child, but it isn't going to teach a child anything other then - when Mom or Dad really want my attention they will swat me. Which will require you to swat them against when you really want their attention. Is that really something you want?

If you can not insure that your child is protected 24/7 until you know without a doubt they can be safe etc. Please do not add more children to this equation.

Hugs,
Marlene


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## Snugglebunny (Oct 20, 2004)

Gee thanks. Good to know that when I wanted a five minute break a couple of months ago, and I told the kids to go play in their playroom so I could sit and rest a few minutes, next thing I know my neighbor runs in to tell me my boys are on the PORCH ROOF - it's because I'm a 'failure as a mother'??!!! Or maybe it's because they're normal, rambunctious boys that thought of doing something before I did.
Then we put locks on the windows so they can't do that again.

Or when I had to use the bathroom, and come out to find the kids getting into something...because I'm a 'failure'??

Or when I go take the garbage to the curb and come back to find the kids misbehaving.

Or when I finally get to take a shower...

Or when I want to talk on the phone with my mother or my husband (for the first time all day)...

Or when I go down to put the wash in the dryer (and no, I don't want the kids in the basement with me...it's yucky down there)...

all these times I'm doing something I need to do, and come back to find them fighting, or sitting on each other, or getting into something... because I'm a 'failure"???!!

Like I don't already lay in bed at night thinking "I wasn't good enough. I didn't do enough." so much that I had to go on an antianxiety medication and sleeping pill. Now I have you telling me I'm a 'failure' and that's why my kids misbehave??

Tell me you worded this wrong.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> Just because we don't spank doesn't mean that we let our kids do whatever they want. They are not out of control. Some are, yes, but it has nothing to do with the fact that we don't spank. Most of the time, you don't even notice our children because gentle parents are raising kids to be gentle children and they don't attract much attention.



Except when they are swinging from a pole in the store as you stated earlier. 

Just because we do spank doesn't mean we are bad parents either. I expect my kids to listen to me the first time. There would not have been a second time of telling them to get off that pole.

A loud NO plus a swat on the butt gets their attention. So the next time I say NO loudly, they stop in their tracks because they want to avoid the swat. That is what I want them to learn. To stop immediately when I say NO! It could mean life or death. I would rather swat a hand away from a hot stove burner than let the kid put her hand on the burner & get 3rd degree burns. I can tell my 2 year old hot a million times & it wouldn't matter. She most certainly would not understand it if I tried to explain it to her. I can smack her hand & yell hot & she now associates hot with her hand getting smacked & won't do it again. Until they are old enough to UNDERSTAND certain things, this is what works. I am not going to let my kids run all over the house & jump on furniture & do things they shouldn't be doing. I have NEVER put up pictures or breakables. They were taught to leave the alone. If they touched them a smack on the hand & NO would stop them. They soon knew what things they could touch & what things they couldn't. I can take them to other people's houses & not have to worry about them getting into the cabinets or getting breakables, etc. When people allow little johnny or susie to do things like that at home, they learn that those things are OK things to play with & therefore think it's fair game wherever they are. I can not stand some kids that come to my house & get into everything because their parents let them do it at home. I would not let my 2 year old run through my garden & destroy the plants & the food we depend on for the winter. She would get told NO & I would take her out. If she came in again, she would get a swat on the butt & taken out until she knew the garden was off limits. I am pretty much following the same way I was raised. There were 11 of us. We are all hard working people. None of us have ever been in trouble before with the police or anyone. I have never even gotten a speeding ticket. So spankings to not mean a kid will grow up to be a violent person or end up in jail as some like to believe. 

Once my kids reach the age of 5 or so, they very seldom need a swat because they know thier limits & what I will & will not allow. I can then change the punishment to something that they will remember. They are then old enough to understand consequences a little better. Of course there are rare times when they will still get a swat. My 16 year old son is taller & much bigger than me. He wouldn't have to obey me if he didn't want too. He could easily whip me if he wanted. BUT, it is out of the respect & healthful fear of me that he does what I tell him to do. There is nothing wrong with your kids having a small bit of fear. Not that they cower in the corner thing, but fear of what you will do or think. I will be 37 soon & I am still concerned about what my parents will think about me when I do certain things. I respect them & want to please them. I am not afraid of them, but to this day would NEVER raise my voice to either one. I have seen too many kids get mouthy with their parents & wonder why it is allowed. I would never dream of doing it to mine & would certainly never allow my kids to do it to me. 

I personally have found it is the kids that aren't spanked that end up in trouble with the law or end up being violent. They haven't been given harsh enough consequences when young & think they somehow shouldn't receive any when older.

I do allow my kids to be kids, just like I was. They do climb trees & play with sticks, but you can bet if they go to far up in that tree I will be telling them to come down. I don't want them to fall out of the tree from 20 feet up & break a bone just so they can learn a natural consequence. If they start smacking each other with sticks, you can bet they would be putting them down. I am not going to let one of them lose an eye to a natural consequence because I don't want to hurt their little feelings. One blind kid in the house is enough. I even spanked her when little. Blind or not, she also had to follow the rules. And you know what?? She is the favorite in the dorm at school. I am told she is the most responsible & polite kid out of all of them there. She is a hard worker & helps anyone that needs it. So, spanking her didn't hurt her one bit. 

In fact, I get told that all the time about all of my kids. I have had teachers tell me that they can tell we discipline them strictly at home & what a pleasure they are to have in class because they are disciplined. One threat to call me is all it would take if they were to misbehave. 

And you know what?? My kids still LOVE me. They do not hide in fear in the corner. They get hugs & kisses all the time. They know without a doubt that thier dad & I love them unconditionally. We do lots of fun things together. They also know that we do expect & require respect & obedience from them at all times. 

Off my soapbox now!


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

I'm deaf and have been since birth so spanking was the only thing that ever got my attention because I was so busy learning and exploring that my mother had to have two eyes in the back of her head.


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## DixyDoodle (Nov 15, 2005)

> The fact is, most of the kids I see in public that are totally out of control are being told, "Boy are you going to get your hide tanned when we get home." Threat, threat, threat, threat, and the kid isn't listening because they haven't been TAUGHT to listen... just to anticipate the hit. What kid is going to mind when they know that whatever they do is going to produce the same result... a spanking?


Actually, there are just as many non-spanking parents that are likely to threaten repeatedly (with just as little a result) as with spanking parents. And my kids don't have to wait til we get home. They get those 1-2 warnings I mentioned in another post and then they get a swat on the butt......they do mind after that, I assure you.

As a child I never "anticipated" being spanked. If I was not corrected at the time, I felt I had gotten away with it. However, when I got a swat right then, it was "oh, I guess I shouldn't have done that." 


> Not spanking does NOT equal not parenting. It does not equal kids being out of control in public or at home. Please quit saying this. It's simply not true.


Perhaps you have taken my comments out of context? Some people can parent without spanking---my one son has been spanked maybe twice in his life, his brother on the other hand, probably 20. LOL Often it depends on the child. But I will say that most kids that get a swat on the bottom DO stop the behaviour right away, whereas those who get put in a cart (where they continue to scream or hit at their parents or throw things), or get warned over and over, etc. often do not. I think there is way too much overly permissive parenting these days---not to be confused with always the non-spanking crowd. Is it so different than being a bit judgemental by assuming that parents that DO spank are not parenting properly either? Most of us resort to spanking after the other resources are not making an impression. It is not our first response.


> You know, I think what bothers me the most is that those of you who spank haven't even tried to understand gentle discipline.


Unless you know all parents, it is not really fair to say that. I did plan on not spanking and did take parenting classes actually for my own benefit, not because I was forced to. But sometimes talking or threatening just doesn't work with certain kids. 


> I've often hear, "You can't be with a child 24/7." -- I beg to differ, if your child has not reached the age where they understand the dangers of running out into the street - then you are another trustworthy person should be there 24/7. Truth is, if your child runs out into the street because you were tending to it's baby sibling etc. etc. - it is you who has failed not the child.
> 
> If you mistake your childs abilities and they are harmed - it is you not them that have failed.


I would love to meet this ideal image of a parent. NO parent can ever say that somewhere down the road, for one moment, that their eyes have not strayed from their child, particularly if they have multiple children. Often it's a matter of multitasking, and no one is so perfect that their child is not left, say, in their bedroom alone for 2 seconds. It's NOT that they are a bad parent or a failure as one. 

And how does a child learn to be self-sufficient if they had a mother obssessively hanging over them 24/7, particularly if, as you say, they are of an age to understand the dangers of some things? Surely an older child can play in their room alone for 5 minutes? *sigh*

Again, I am not picking on anyone, but......I used to be on the debate team at school, so I could go on and on and on. LOL I will apologize for that, though.


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## MicheleMomof4 (Jul 17, 2002)

You know Wendy, I had this huge post written and walked away before I hit submit. And I then came back and read yours. You said it better than I could!  

Booklover,
I think what is bothering people is your asking for understanding and then telling people how spanking their children is wrong. Its a choice. You choose not to. Others do. If you want your thoughts respected, might serve you well to do so as well. 
God Bless,
Michele


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## DixyDoodle (Nov 15, 2005)

> There is nothing wrong with your kids having a small bit of fear. Not that they cower in the corner thing, but fear of what you will do or think.


I agree, there is nothing wrong with your kids hating you occasionally either. Sometimes I think too many parents are trying too hard to get their kids to like them and be their buddies. I think I hated my mom sometimes too, when I thought she was being too harsh, but now looking back, she did the right thing most of the time. I say "most" of the time because she was not one of those perfect parents and did occasionally make mistakes. I still love her though.


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## MicheleMomof4 (Jul 17, 2002)

DixyDoodle said:


> I agree, there is nothing wrong with your kids hating you occasionally either. Sometimes I think too many parents are trying too hard to get their kids to like them and be their buddies. I think I hated my mom sometimes too, when I thought she was being too harsh, but now looking back, she did the right thing most of the time. I say "most" of the time because she was not one of those perfect parents and did occasionally make mistakes. I still love her though.


Exactly. My Granny raised 9 kids and told me when I had my first one throw his first fit that if they don't hate you aleast ONCE, then your not doing it right. 
God rest her soul, I lost a great adviser when she passed. 
God Bless,
Michele


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## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

> If you dont spank, and your kids are well behaved and listen thoroughly and politly CONGRATULATIONS!!! You did it! But I dont think you exist. SORRY =(


Of course we exist, you just assume that we spank because our children are so well behaved!

It isn't just my opinion that our boys are well behaved and polite - we get notes home from teachers saying what a joy it is to have our boys in their classroom, we get complimented in stores, our CSA members tell us how polite the boys are when they help with deliveries.

When I read these threads I sometimes say to myself, well if our children were that badly behaved I suppose we would have to consider spanking them too. Ours have never run into the road, never grabbed at a hot stove, never hit us, never bullied each other, never been cruel to animals, never defied us in any way. Should we still have spanked them anyway?


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## Westwood (May 13, 2002)

This thread is painful for me to read.

My oldest sister was bull headed, spiteful and nothing would do until she was spanked to deter her from wrong behavior. Trouble is my parents were very young when they had the three of us and Connie was first. They thought all kids were the same. My next older sister and I nearly had our spirits extinguished by dad's physical violence.

I know where it comes from in my family. My great grandfather used to shoot at the kids when they came around the corner of the house JUST FOR FUN. His wife and her oldest son from a previous (her husband died) marriage ended up killing him. No one in the community would testify against them. They said "he needed killin'" Grandad had anger issues, so did dad. I worried for YEARS that I'd be like them. Dad TRIED so deal with his anger, but Carol and I suffered for Connie's bullheadedness. 

I was worried that Connie would continue the family legacy with her son. Surprisingly she was just the opposite! Chad could, and did, get away with anything. I was at mom's house one day when he said something hurtful to granny (my mom) and I yanked him up and swatted his butt. Told him his parents might let him get away with that but when I'm around he won't. I flew off the handle just like great grandpa, grandad and dad. Luckily it only got his attention and he was a changed child after that. I guess maybe the punishment fit the situation and that one time didn't kill his spirit. 

Violence begets violence.


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## DixyDoodle (Nov 15, 2005)

> It isn't just my opinion that our boys are well behaved and polite - we get notes home from teachers saying what a joy it is to have our boys in their classroom, we get complimented in stores, our CSA members tell us how polite the boys


I get lots of compliments about how polite my boys are, too......and I spank occasionally.  However, politeness is a rare commodity anymore. Not so sure if it has to do with spanking or non-spanking, just a mirror on our society in general. Kids are too "me-oriented" and spoiled these days I think.

(I wonder if my mom said the same thing 50 years ago? LOL)

Westwood, what you are referring to is abuse, comparing a quick swat on the butt to an all-out, bruising beating that leaves you injured is, to me at least, not comparable. You could also say that those that do not spank are either too permissive or have skills (or particularly-natured children) that do not require a swat ever. Same as I can give my child constructive criticism or alternately if I were a bad parent, be verbally abuse and hurtful when he asks how to make his homework done better. There are extremes to everything.


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

I agree. 

Many potential discipline situations can be avoided through good planning. Of course I was a worrier so I often laid awake nights thinking of what my kids could possibly get into and ways to avoid it!


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> Violence begets violence.



A swat on the butt or a spanking not done in anger is not violence. Violence is beating them until you leave marks. Throwing them, pushing them, knocking them down, shooting at them, & having them cower in fear. I was spanked & I do not hate my parents for it. I am thankful they were stern enough to teach me right from wrong. I was not spanked often, but deserved them when I did get them. I really, really hate when people say that those who spank are being violent. Spankings done with love are not violent!


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## BAmaBubba (May 10, 2007)

DixyDoodle said:


> I agree, there is nothing wrong with your kids hating you occasionally either. Sometimes I think too many parents are trying too hard to get their kids to like them and be their buddies. I think I hated my mom sometimes too, when I thought she was being too harsh, but now looking back, she did the right thing most of the time. I say "most" of the time because she was not one of those perfect parents and did occasionally make mistakes. I still love her though.


I SOOO agree! My wife teaches high school. It amazes me to see these kids who think the world should be handed them on a plate and that they have no responsibility for their actions. You ask about "what would your mom say?" and their reply is "nothing, she's my best friend!" or you ask the mother about something the child did and it's "well, wah wah wah, I just want her to see me as her friend wah wah"

My oldest got in major trouble a while back. He is ADHD and isn't always able to associate action and consequence well through those "gentle disciplines." After about the umpteenth discussion, he got a spanking...didn't do it again. Later, he was asking about a game for his Nintendo DS. I told him "No, you lost the one that I bought you a while back. You can earn the money for it yourself but I won't buy you one." His reply was "Well, all of my friends have it! I want you to buy it...their parents buy them games all the time" At this point, I'm getting miffed. I told him that I didn't work my butt off to buy video games, I worked to keep a roof over his head and food on the table. I told him that I loved him dearly but that I was first and foremost, his FATHER, not his 7 year old buddy and that I had to make decisions based on his well-being, not his whim at the time.


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## Westwood (May 13, 2002)

"You could also say that those that do not spank are either too permissive or have skills (or particularly-natured children) that do not require a swat ever."

Actually, I can't. All I have for experience is my own childhood, I have no children. My own miscarried at 4 months. I would never dare to put myself in other's lives. 

Don was abused by his father, but somehow he got over it. The oldest of 7 kids. His daughter was one of those kids who somehow had the wisdom of ages and never needed correction. He also never feared passing on his family legacy. I admire him.


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

MicheleMomof4 said:


> Booklover,
> I think what is bothering people is your asking for understanding and then telling people how spanking their children is wrong. Its a choice. You choose not to. Others do. If you want your thoughts respected, might serve you well to do so as well.
> God Bless,
> Michele


How can you make a choice between two things if you aren't informed on both?


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## WindowOrMirror (Jan 10, 2005)

come now, I make choices between two things that I have not studied in depth or managed to "try"...

for instance, I don't "go" at red lights, I don't touch a hot stove, I don't tell my wife she looks fat, and I don't stand behind my mule. I don't need to "try" or "get informed on" these things to know that they are a bad idea.


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## MicheleMomof4 (Jul 17, 2002)

booklover said:


> How can you make a choice between two things if you aren't informed on both?


What makes you think I'm not informed? Because I'm not doing things the way you do it?
I have read a great deal on attachment parenting. It just didn't work for my children. I applied alot of it in my earlier years. It didn't all work for my children. Though I am a somewhat a co-sleeper and diehard baby wearer from my experience on the subject. 
There is not a one size fits all on this subject. As much as your trying to make it that way, just simply isn't so. 
God Bless,
Michele


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## MicheleMomof4 (Jul 17, 2002)

WindowOrMirror said:


> come now, I make choices between two things that I have not studied in depth or managed to "try"...
> 
> for instance, I don't "go" at red lights, I don't touch a hot stove, I don't tell my wife she looks fat, and I don't stand behind my mule. I don't need to "try" or "get informed on" these things to know that they are a bad idea.


Oh,this made me laugh so bad! LOL
God Bless,
Michele


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## Kmac15 (May 19, 2007)

I was at a table in a resturant with my younger sister and my nephew of about 2 years old. Sister was trying to be a no spanker, nephew liked to dig the ice from her tea glass and she had no problem with this as "it kept him quiet". I, on the other hand had a big problem with this, he was sitting between us, so I could help with him, he started to put his hand in MY glass. I told him no, he grinned and tried again, I told him no again. The third time I popped his hand, sister was as shocked as he was, know what, he did not put his hand in my drink again.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

DixyDoodle said:


> I agree, there is nothing wrong with your kids hating you occasionally either. Sometimes I think too many parents are trying too hard to get their kids to like them and be their buddies. I think I hated my mom sometimes too, when I thought she was being too harsh, but now looking back, she did the right thing most of the time. I say "most" of the time because she was not one of those perfect parents and did occasionally make mistakes. I still love her though.


This is so true. I grew up with spanking parents(NOT beating parents, spanking parents). Many were the times when I thought they were terribly mean to punish me.....then when I got older I looked back and realized what a snot I was being and how much I deserved the spankings. I love my parents for disciplining me.


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## Snugglebunny (Oct 20, 2004)

My siblings and I all got together once and talked about that... "remember when we..." and "Didn't you hate it when..." but how we deserved it every time. we all agree that Mom and Dad did a great job with us. We've all turned out to be loving, caring and respectful people despite anything that happened during our lives. We always knew - no matter what choices we made, that our parents loved us.

Even now, all 4 of us will just happen to show up at their house on a sunday, just because we enjoy their company. All 4 of us can say our Mom and Dad are now our best friends - even though they never tried to be, and even though they spanked us. (I remember my Dad lining us all up...1, 2, 3, 4)


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## Splinky (Nov 10, 2006)

My parents spanked me and my older brother. We are both polite, law abiding, kind people. By the time my little sister came they decided to try this new gentel way of raising children. They got the books, took the classes, and tried their hardest. She is 24 and is a monster. Rude, selfish and difficult to be around.

That was enough to decide it for me. I spank.


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## elliemaeg (May 1, 2005)

My DD, was here with her children for a few days and I looked out on the back porch and to my astonishment my Grandson had his stomach on the banister balancing his self and swinging hisself back and forth. Well, my back porch is on the second floor and he is old enough to know better. I was so scared. I ran out and grabbed him pulled him to me and spanked him good. He didn't know what to think. I did explain why I spanked him and let him know if I ever caught him doing it again he would get it again. 
But as his Mom always said,"Don't scare Mama she will kill ya." (I spanked not beat.)
So, I still spank sporadically. I leave most discipline to their parents. They very seldom spank, if ever.


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## TC (Jun 22, 2005)

Booklover, I don't disagree necessarily with you not spanking, but with this idea that each action on your part should be discuss and approved by a child. It seems that way to me, maybe I'm wrong, or reading it wrong. Part of growing up, is understanding that we all have authority figures, even adults. If a boss tell me to do something, and I say it's boring or I'm having a bad day....do you really think he/she is gonna "crouch to my level" and gently tell me why he feels I should do as he asks. Heck, no! He'll say "see ya"

As your daughter gets older, it might be hard for her to understand that sometimes you have to do things, simply because you must do what they say, regardless of your own feelings. I feel that teaching a child that you will do what I say, when I say ,without always having your input or opinion about everything teaching them respect. THis can be taught without or without spanking. 

As far as natural consequences, that literally can go too far. As a child matures the natural conseqences for certain behavior is jail, death, unemployment and a vast array of other situations that should have been dealt with in childhood by parents.

Just my humble opinion, not meant to argue....


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

I've been trying to stay out of this, because we've had this discussion -- even this poll -- on here before, and it didn't end well. I suspect that there are several things that a large group of people from varying backgrounds cannot discuss civilly -- religion, politics, and child-rearing being a few of them.

I spanked my children. Flat hand, swat on the butt, or on the hand, depending on what was going on. My children are now 13 and 11, and I cannot for the life of me remember the last time I spanked them. The point is, you train them early (as soon as they are capable of being self-determining, as in, "I reach for something hot, it hurts when Mummy smacks my hand -- so I won't reach for it again" -- or "I insist on climbing up on the back of the sofa, even after Mummy has said 'no', and it hurts when mummy spanks my bum, so I'm not going to do that any more"

My eldest has been spanked probably fewer times than I have fingers on one hand. He was an "easy" to discipine child. He understood "no", and respected it.

My youngest probably has had five spankings in his entire life. All early, and all because of his stubborn determination to have his own way, regardless of what his father or I told him, or the danger involved in his choices. His first nickname was "danger-man", and he was determined to kill himself before he hit five years old.

Both boys learned very early what "no" meant, and that if "no" was ignored, the consequences got worse. We were consistent in that, and it wasn't a difficult lesson for them -- once they knew that we would not change our minds depending on the situation. Consistency is the key, early teaching, and later, you shouldn't HAVE to spank. But the seed of it, of the knowledge that Mum and Dad don't budge, and the consequences only get worse (whatever those consequences are for your family) if you push it, MUST be there.

My father had a razor strap hanging on the back of the bathroom door. Every time you went in the bathroom and closed the door, it slapped against the door as a grim reminder to behave. There were eight of us, and I can only remember him using it once -- as he bawled and my brother took his punishment without shedding a tear. He deserved it, too -- what he'd done could have ended with one of us kids dead. 

We all grew up into decent, contributing, caring members of society who love and respect our parents. Most of us parent as they parented us, and we've got good kids who are respectful of us, themselves and others. Two of my siblings chose to parent differently, without spanking, allowing "free expression" -- and their children have had endless problems, from being kicked out of school to trouble with the law.

Am I saying that all kids who are spanked grow up good and those who aren't grow up bad? No, of course not. I'm saying that there has to be a PARENT behind it, actively PARENTING. As many people confuse "spanking" with "abuse" as confuse "not spanking" with "spoiled". The difference is, that can't be the ONLY disciplinary measure. 

I'm now putting on my "mod" hat -- let's keep this to a civil discussion -- because if insults and judgements begin to be tossed about, it's going to end up closed.


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

Hopefully there is no room in this discussion for the two extremes, the one who beats bruises and abuses and the one who dose'nt care enough to try to guide them right and let them raise themselves. In my opinion spanking and talking both are needed but neither should be given with out love. That same love will spank a toddlers hand for touching a cold heater rather than letting him find out for himself on a hot one.


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## MarleneS (Aug 21, 2003)

Snugglebunny said:


> Gee thanks. Good to know that when I wanted a five minute break a couple of months ago, and I told the kids to go play in their playroom so I could sit and rest a few minutes, next thing I know my neighbor runs in to tell me my boys are on the PORCH ROOF - it's because I'm a 'failure as a mother'??!!! Or maybe it's because they're normal, rambunctious boys that thought of doing something before I did.
> Then we put locks on the windows so they can't do that again.
> 
> Or when I had to use the bathroom, and come out to find the kids getting into something...because I'm a 'failure'??
> ...


Nope, didn't word it wrong - If you will re-read my post, hopefully you will notice that what I said was IF you are not getting the hoped for results from your children, it is better to ASKED yourself how you have failed, would non-successful feel better?, as a parent instead of finding fault with the children. You are called an adult and they are called children because you are supposedly more mature, rational, knowledgeable...huh, adult like, and they are called children because..huh, they are children.

Of course accidents happen, and it's only natural that children are going to test their limits, all part of life. But, IF you can not trust your children to behave, not cause harm or injury to themselves for short periods of time - who's the person who has not been successful?

It's about placing blame where it will likely get the hoped for results.

Hugs,
Marlene


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## blue8ewe (Oct 25, 2006)

I know this has been at rest for a few days but i just have to comment...


I am so very pleased that this thread has gone so well. Sure we have disagreed. And there have been small misunderstandings. But goodness how well it has been handled. Just supper fantastic.
I watched this same question on another board and it went down right crazy.
The non spankers went crazy calling the spankers all kinds of horrid things, while the spankers bit their tongue. Till the end and it erupted in an all out battle. I have to say that even then the spankers only attached the behaviour of the non spankers and not thier choices in parenting.

Anyway, well done!


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## n8tureboy (Dec 14, 2006)

Okiemom make's some good point's:



> Sometimes I don't have 5 min to explain why I want them to do something for me they just need to do it and do it now!!!! I need to be able to trust them that they will move, stop or come to safty when I direct it. A copperhead in our garden is not going to wait to strike until I am over my feel good talk. I need to boys to respond NOW! Same thing if they want to be around any eq. They need to be able to do as told. Otherwise injury or death could occure.
> 
> I would rather have to explain why I give swats than why my child is dead because they wouldn't stop, for the car they didn't see, when I asked.


My children get spanked when I deem it necessary for their safety. I think that part of the reason for so many disrespectful kid's/teenagers today is because they don't understand actions and consequences, and modern psychology is afraid of ruining their self esteem by meeting out appropriate punishment.


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## sheepish (Dec 9, 2006)

According to my parents, I was spanked 3 times, when I was very little. I don't remember it. They never spanked my three younger siblings. We did not spank our four children at all. They have all grown up to be well-adjusted, respectful adults who areconsiderate productive members of society. We didn't get attitude even during the teen years.

There are many other ways of making sure that children and teens know that there are consequences to their actions. 

However, I would never want to have spanking removed (by law) as a possible method of disciplining children. I think that, short of abuse, parents need to be able to decide within their family what works with their children.


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## lwj2 (Aug 20, 2006)

That's GREAT!

I work in a hospital. On behalf of orthopaedic surgeons and radiographers everywhere, I say: Thank you for keeping us in business!



booklover said:


> Example: "Please quit jumping from divan." "Jumping like that will get you hurt." Jump. Crash. "Yep, it sure does hurt to have a broken foot. Maybe you'll listen to me the next time." Next time she listened. Natural consequences.


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## Jim S. (Apr 22, 2004)

I'd spank 'em if I had 'em, but since I don;t, I won't post to the survey.

I will say that Daddy had it down pretty well. A taste of that belt, and then all he had to do was take it off, double it, and SNAP it. We'd pretty much fall right into line. No physical contact needed whatsoever. It's kind of like the electric fence. One time, and you stay away from it.


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

We don't spank.

My Dad never hesitated with the spanking of me, and I am not sure it did a bit of good.

99% of the spanking probably could have been worked out in another way.

As I got older, I toughened up and just took the spanking. 

Clove


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## Mr.Hoppes (Sep 30, 2006)

michiganfarmer said:


> OH! A hot button subject. Been here done that.
> 
> The emotions of those who think spanking is abuse can not be reasoned with.
> 
> ...



Smart man.


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## giraffe_baby (Oct 15, 2005)

Same here




WindowOrMirror said:


> We have only spanked for direct disobedience (continued and direct defiance).
> 
> It's been a while since we spanked as the kids are really too old for that to be the most effective method of imparting wisdom or modifying behavior
> 
> ...


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

Swatting a child's bottom through clothing because you want to get their attention RIGHT NOW isn't what most anti spanking advocates are referring to when they say spanking is abuse. The ritualistic spanking outlined in many conservative parenting advice manuals (To Train Up A Child) with a device, repeated spankings to break the will, spanking in anger, leaving marks, or spanking because a parent is too lazy or too ignorant to use another discipline method is abuse. 

I am another parent with (now) grown children who were never spanked, and they're law abiding, respectful, and a joy to be around.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

This thread was resurrected from JULY!


:shrug: :stirpot: :shrug: :stirpot: :shrug: :stirpot: :shrug:


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