# HELP--goat died-another not chewing cud



## Donna (Aug 11, 2004)

Had our Nubian dairy goat die a few days ago,I'm new to goats but after reading many threads it seemed like Listerosis as she got paralyzed on one side and went down hill very fast. I did not have antibiotics and probios ,etc..,on hand so did go out and get some just in case and now we have the Nubie's pal who is eating a little but not bringing up that cud. Started her on Probios but couldn't find where anyone stated how much and how often? She has seemed depressed and seperated herself from the rest of the goats. We have checked all day and not seen her ever chewing her cud.Any help would be appreciated.
Donna


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## Al. Countryboy (Oct 2, 2004)

Sorry to hear the bad news. Does she have baking soda ? Sometimes too much grain can cause upset stomachs. Yogurt might help her also. Maybe later on in morning more help will answer.


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## GoatTalkr9 (Aug 1, 2002)

Have you checked her temp.? I feel for you..we lost one yesterday to septicima listeriosis. I saved one a few weeks ago,but lost this one. We have to bury her today. Do NOT wait on this. Check her temp,what are the simplest of signs that you have noticed? With Isaac and MoneyPenny,our first sign was the hanging back,then going off feed. Do you have a vet who is goat smart or will at least prescribe you meds? Did they eat the same hay/grain/minerals?


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## Stacy Adams (Jan 23, 2003)

The only question here I can answer is the probiotic one.. first off, you can't really overdose it and that's good news.. but on average, it's 5g 1-3 times a day depending on the meds I use or if I'm using them at all.. just make sure your using the one for Bovines and not horses...  
The vit- B shot won't hurt the kids but I'd also give her some vit- E, just squeese a capsul in her mouth. this helps her body utilize the vit-B. 
I'll be praying for the both of you!!!


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

Stacy Adams said:


> just make sure your using the one for Bovines and not horses...


Stacy, I've read this a few times now and wonder why? I've always given my goats the ProBios for horses and recently purchased the bovine because it was all the store had. They hate it  and do everything to get it of their mouths. Is the horse one beneficial at least in some way? or is it detrimental? Or is it that bovine is just more compatible to goat rumens? They didn't mind the taste of the horse probios and that was one less thing to worry about...


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## Donna (Aug 11, 2004)

I took her temp this AM and it was 99.8,she yawns a lot like trying to get her cud up but can not. Some one told me to have her drink beer so she belches and it may help,I did try it but no luck,I have given her Vit. B shot now and got eletrolytes down her. She did not eat at all this AM.
Donna


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## Stacy Adams (Jan 23, 2003)

I know that it's possible to steal a cud from one goat to give to another, but not having done it, I can't tell you how  but it seems like something that may need to be done.. have you given her any baking soda? You could either try wetting your finger an dipping it inthe BS and wiping it on her tongue, or mixing a teaspoon of BS in a cup with enough water (4-5cc) to suck it up into a syringe.. just before you squirt it in hewr mouth, give it a good shaking to mix it up.. some how, I think this would be better for her tummy than a beer  

Marcia..I think the differance between the equine an bovine probiotics are the bacteria used.. yea, they may like the taste, but it may not be doing them any good.. most of the girls in the barn don't like the stuff except Hailey, who loves it!!
go figure..


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## trickham (Nov 28, 2004)

Tango said:


> Is the horse one beneficial at least in some way? or is it detrimental? Or is it that bovine is just more compatible to goat rumens?


Bovines and goats are ruminants. Horses are not. While there may be some crossover bacteria, and therefore some benefit, I would personally avoid using horse probiotics. Bovine Probios lists goats in the use and dosage section.


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## elly_may (Aug 27, 2004)

When a goat ruminates (chews cud) they are changing the ph of their system. When they eat, the contents of the digested material ferments and changes the ph to acid. The cud chewing with their saliva brings the ph back to neutral to alkaline side. It is very important for a ruminant to chew cud about 5 hours a day. Without this, their system stays at an acid level, keeps dropping, and can die quickly from "acidosis". 

You need to bring her ph level up FAST. Give her baking soda balls (baking soda is an alkaline).

Get her to walk and massage her rumen to get her to belch a few times. Keep rubbing her rumen and walk until you can feel the contractions of the rumen (ideally 4 contractions a minute).

I would also get some antibiotics into her as well. Your vet should be able to prescribe some Penicillin or get LA-200 from your feed store (LA 200 is a broad spectrum tetracycline). Antiobiotics are an alkaline as well.

Continue the Probiotics to stabilize the good bacteria.

Yes, the ruminant stomach works a lot different from horses. Meds for bovines should be used whenever possible.

It is possible to steal a cud from another animal. It takes a quick jab to the side at the right time when they are bringing it up into the throat, but you have to be quick with the other hand right in their mouth at the same time. It takes experience. 

The vet can perform a cud transplant as well. Experience here is the key as it involves surgery into the rumen to accomplish this. Not many vets I think will tell you that they have done this. Around my neck of the woods, not many vets are even experienced in goats !!!


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## Sondra Peterson (Dec 5, 2002)

You have to do the probios /baking soda fast and her temp is way too low I would get a VET ASAP. myself


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## Donna (Aug 11, 2004)

I have been checking this all day with all your suggestions and I greatly appreciate it. Unfortunately the vets in this area don't understand the goats and have given wrong meds.So I have to find a different one but until then I have to try to save them. I have done all the suggestioins that everyone posted.
Now she is acting like she is in labor and if she is bred she could only be about 3months along. She is having some contractions or is this her rumen doing this?As you see I don't even know! She is pushing and vocalizing.She drank a lot of electolytes just before and peed and than laid down. To me she looiks like she is trying to have a baby.


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## Donna (Aug 11, 2004)

UPDATE--She did abort 2 babies.Is there anything else I need to be doing?And did she have a low temp cuz she was going to abort? I am a dog breeder and I know the dogs temps drop before whelping. 
The New Year is not starting out good!


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

I just took care of a herd who were aborting do to listerosis. It really was the first sypmtom the gal had.... when I got there it was pretty evident from the palsy on the face of several of the does that it had started as listerosis and now the does where aborting. It was her whole doe crop who where due the first part of Febuary, the bucks and kids where not involved since they had not been eating the moldy hay she had gotten cheap to use as bedding.

We gave massive IM injections of penicillin 12 cc under the skin in two places, and that much orally also. I also gave them teteracycline IV. The does in active labor and all the does who where treated before they where down, lived, all the does who had aborted and where down died. 

If you can't call a vet to IV for you, or have a friend who is a nurse or old cow mentor (who taught me) than I would give the rest of the goats penicillin by mouth, yes you are going to kill the beneficial bacteria, but it sounds as if they don't have much right now anyway, listerosis grows in the stomachs and intestines, and if you don't kill it, the doe will die anyway. I would then put them on tetracycline, the first shots IM to get it fast in the system then move to subq. 4.5cc per 100 pounds, any 200mg tetracline will work and since you are going to give it for 10 days you might want to find the cheapest ones and not use LA200.

5grams of Probios, and follow the directions on the label exactly if you use Fast Track, every couple of hours, remember that the amount of good bacteria in products like this are good, but nothing compared to the billions of bacteria per cc of rumen juices in a healthy goat. You can catch a cud or puchase it at a teaching hospital, slurry it up with water in the blender and dose several goats. Keifer would be excellent for this also.

You have to get the source of mold out of there....the husband rented a bobcat to get the barn cleaned out, bleached the sides as high as he could reach and rebedded with shavings while we worked on the does under the carport, some of them having to be moved in a wheel barrow because they where so heavy. The mold is in your grain, in your feeders or in the hay or spilt hay on the ground. You can also bring this in to the herd, with a carrier animal, anyone new?

You should wear gloves to dispose of the kids, placentas and birthing fluids, we used a burn barrell with fertilizer to keep the fire going, keep the does who abort and their kids seperated, do not use the colostrum or milk raw on anyone, including other animals. You don't want to even take a chance of having the birth fluids splash on you. (I took my coveralls off out at my husbands shop and threw them into our burn pile, thanks goodness it was dark out when I crept naked into the house  I left my truck parked out behind also so I could bleach the tires. Wear gloves, get a 5 gallon bucket of water with 1/4 cup bleach per gallon of water and keep yourself clean, do not contaminate your yard and house walking back and forth with these clothes or shoes on.

The kids will die of septiciemia if you allow them to become infected by their moms colostrum or milk. The kids that live (none lived here because they aborted too early) and milkers can not have access to other animals or humans until they are cleared of listerosis by fecal sample.

In a large herd, especially since this is the second time I have dealt with this, both this time of year (wet humid and folks bedding their barns for kidding season to start), I would mercifully put down anyone down, and keep my resources and strength for taking care of the does who are not yet down.

281-592-6914 Vicki


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## tduerson (Jul 24, 2004)

I just got my 2nd Doe back out to the barn that suffered from Listeriosis/Polio. I brought her in the house because she was freezing to death - shivering uncontrolably. I give her Procaine Penecilian at 10cc every 6hrs. until she started showing improvment then go to twice a day until she is back on her feet then once a day for 7 more days. I some times will raise the doseage or go with an extra dose inbetween the twice a day if I dont think she is making any pogress. As long as I see improvment each time I check on her I stick with the schedule. I also give Vit B Complex at the same dose or a little more the same way I give the Procaine Penecilian. I give Children's Motrin as well to help with any Temp. and Pain due to the infection. I also use Probios. I give it once a day at 8 grams for a 75lb. Doe. Also the most important thing is to keep her hydrated. I push 60cc every hour or so by mouth. I use Duravet - Vitamin and Electrolytes 1 tablespoon mixed in 1 gallon of water. My Girl LOVED this stuff and when she started drinking on her own again she would suck it right down but would not hardly touch plain water. I know you cant save them all by reading some of the post on here but I have saved 2 in one year with this regement. maybe just luck. You have to catch them quick and get them on the meds.
Hope this helps
Tina


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## Donna (Aug 11, 2004)

UPDATE---I wanted to Thank Everyone who gave suggestions as we used most of them,and Thank you Vicki for taking the time to talk to me on the phone. I did go to see a vet with her today and he did nothing as far as helping as he knew nothing about GOATS!!! And as for any of his suggestions and antibiotics I am staying with what we have been doing from everyone"s help out there.
She is still sick but is looking better,got her to eat some pellets tonite and for the first time seen her chewing cud,she was shivering a bit maybe from the trip to the vet as he is an hour away,she was very upset.So we are praying she is on the up swing.We are not out of the woods yet but it looks more hopeful.
About the stealing a cud from one and given it to her,we actually did it 5 seperate times but didn't realize until Vicki's note you dilute it down and syringe it in,we tried to cramm it in her mouth directly from the other goat and she was not a willing partner in this.YUK!! We had it all over us and I thought a Billy'S smell was hard to get OUT!!!
Thanks again to everyone
Donna


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## elly_may (Aug 27, 2004)

Donna said:


> She is still sick but is looking better,got her to eat some pellets tonite and for the first time seen her chewing cud


That is good news. Keep up the good work. 

You may want to check her temps and give her lots of warm water. 

Keep us posted, Donna.

My prayers are with you and yours.


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## sancraft (Jun 7, 2002)

I've been thinking about your goat all day. I'll keep praying for her. Please, keep us posted.


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## Donna (Aug 11, 2004)

I think she is going to be OK,she drinks lots of warm water that I bring out but I think she has adopted me as her buddy! The goat that died was her buddy and she doesn't like the other 7 goats as she just bellows for me as soon as she heres my back door open. She is fine when I am with her but if I leave and my son stays she will bellow away til I come back. I am surprised she would even like me as all the thinks I dumped down her mouth and needles I jabbed in her.The only thing is she won't eat anything I give her but once in a while I will peak out the door and I see her in the pellet bucket or laying and chewing her cud so she must be eating. I hope she is eating enough I have offered her many things and she won't eat them so must be a slow process on getting back to health. Thought I let you know that I think she is going to be OK.
Doinna


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## Milking Mom (Oct 2, 2004)

I'm sorry for your loss and happy for your progress on saving your other girl. Good work. I've been watching this thread and looking for a good progress report.  


I have a question for Vicki regarding her post.....

" We gave massive IM injections of penicillin 12 cc under the skin in two places, and that much orally also. I also gave them teteracycline IV."

Is that the "injectable" penicillin that you squirt in their mouth? Also, that is a total of 24 cc sq and 12 cc orally at one time?........how many times a day?


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## Sondra Peterson (Dec 5, 2002)

Donna do you have anything green still around like willow trees or cedar if so try giving her a few twigs I'll bet you she'll gobble them up. you also could give her a few carrot tops or parsley from the grocery store. Have you tried a few sunflower seeds? most goats love these I also have given them oatmeal the oldfashioned kind when they have been off feed. Just a thought.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Milking Mom said:


> I'm sorry for your loss and happy for your progress on saving your other girl. Good work. I've been watching this thread and looking for a good progress report.
> 
> 
> I have a question for Vicki regarding her post.....
> ...


..........................
Hi!

If you think of listerosis as an overgrowth of mold in the goats system, we gave that much penicillin (300,000 unit) injectable, injected IM and also orally, to stop the overgrowth. In 12 hours they went on the normal, 3cc per 50 pounds subq every 12 hours. In any other normal illness you would not give a ruminant any drug like this orally, most antibiotics are degraded in the rumen, why drinking water meds are so dubious, in certain circumstances when you just need a low level of say tetracycline, than oral, via feed is fine for say treating chlamydia or pasturella pnemonia, but for acute illness, in a ruminant, oral dosing is a waste of time. It does work well on infants since their rumen is not working yet.

For this doe who was 195, 24cc IM was not a huge overdose like it may sound, (each 12cc syringe was given in 2 places, so only 6cc went into each muscle, more than that and you will see shock, especially if you push it fast, and worse since you do have to choose some muscles of the rear leg, they will be sore and limping....a normal amount for this doe would be right under 12cc, so it was twice as much a tad more...actually if she was my doe (which is what I was doing here, she simply said save my goats do what you would if you where at home, although she would not put down the does I told her to, she let them die instead, which to me was much more stressfull emotionally (for me) than if she had let me put them down) So at home if I was worming or medicating her at 195 pounds I would not do the math and just treat her at 200 pounds, which is what I did at this point. The goats where dieing, her vet was useless, the only sensible thing he did was give her Dex, the whole bottle, after giving her goats all 1cc....190 pound does 1cc :no: for their neurological symptoms.

If I had been called before everything had gotten this far I would have used the dosages per Goat Medicine. Vicki


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## Donna (Aug 11, 2004)

All seems well the doe. She now has started eating with the others and getting bossy with a few of the kids(must mean she's feeling better).She lays with the others instead of off by herself.I would say she's back to normal. Hope this is it and no one else gets any symptoms.Thanks again for everyones help,if it wasn't for all the advise I believe she would have died as the vet was no help. I need to invest in the goat med book.
Donna


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

If you hunt through the forum it's up on one of the stickies, we saved the old saanendoah.com medication list before Joyce took it down off her list, it's invaluable! If it's not there, than beg borrow or steal someones copy!!!! Vicki


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## GoatTalkr9 (Aug 1, 2002)

Vicki, when I was treating my doe for this,I was giving her up to 11 cc's every 6 hours injected. I was giving it subq though,when my husband wasn't at home to do the im shots. She was making slow improvements over a two week span. Her last day she did really well,but when I went to give her the evening shot she was limping and moaned as she walked. I got about 6cc's into her (oppostie side of leg she was limping on) subQ and she went down on me,moaned,legs peddled briefly,arched her neck and died. I had the epi,hubb even gave her epi again in the jugular and chest massage. What I have been trying to find out is WHY she went down during the shot,not before or after...during. She had been getting penicillan every 6 hours for about 9 days,14 days total. We didn't know to divide up the dose as you posted. Could this have been her downfall?


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