# FS cow/calf pair Dexter / Highlander / Holstein



## Wintersong Farm (Aug 22, 2007)

One three-year old cow with calf at side. Cow is Highlander on Holstein. Bull calf was born on 4-5 out of purebred Dexter bull (on premises). Very winter hardy - calves born outside in December, February, and April and all did well. Located in central Wisconsin. $2,500 for the pair.


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## Wintersong Farm (Aug 22, 2007)

Calf is doing great. Still available together or separately.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

As one who avoids cross breeding and discourages others from cross breeding, except in rare situations, I can only shake my head.:stars:
Cattle breeds are generally distinct animals, selected for a set of characteristics specific to that breed, over many decades. Highlander on Holstein? Do you get a heavy coat and good mothering ability or do you get a large framed cow that produces lots of low cream milk? Then you throw that genetic amalgamation at a Dexter? It matters that it was a purebred Dexter? Why? What was the goal? Were you trying for a set of specific traits or just throwing together what ever was handy? Have you castrated the quarter Holstein, quarter Highlander, half Dexter bull calf yet? Why not?:hammer:
Is the cow quiet enough to milk or is it more like a large, less hairy Highland that is hard to handle? 
I don't write this to criticize you, more as a way for others to access their breeding plans.


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## Rosepath (Feb 18, 2011)

Maybe she's just wanting to raise beef calves for the freezer. The lack of a halter on the cow indicates such - a dairy cow should be halter-broke and easily led (not that all of ours have been, durn it). It does seem a lot to ask for cross-breds with an unclear purpose, but maybe the market up there is better than here.


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## gjhinesjr (Jun 28, 2014)

I'm a little surprised at the response Haypoint.

As someone who just chose to crossbreed my Jersey to a Norwegian Red I was surprised to see such animosity towards the idea. In fact just in the dairy cow sector there is a huge movement right now to crossbred to increase health and fertility traits in the Holstein in particular.

Not to mention crossbreeding is big in beef cattle, and pigs as well.

I completely agree that people need to understand that you don't always get the best of both worlds when you do cross, you're equally likely to get the worst of each, but that's hardly a reason not to, imo. In fact, I think one of the biggest travesties out in the world of small scale farming is the lack of genetic material suited to the unique aspect of this endeavor. Sure we have heritage breeds, but their numbers are so diminished and breeding selection so lax (in order to promote greater numbers) that the examples we have today are rarely perfectly suited to the objectives of small farming. Crossbreeding allows us to better breed for a perfect animal in general and not have to constrain ourselves to any breed standard. You pick sires pre-potent and well vetted for certain traits and your odds of success increase.

That being said I love seeing people try different combos. I'm not too far away from her and can tell you that I've thought of putting a Highland over my Jersey in an effort to increase winter hardiness, increase her bone, and add some much needed body condition over her commercialized american genetics.

Afterall, crossbreeding is how we ended up with so many breeds in the first place. People saw a need, and bred for it.

I say kudos Wintersong Farm. If I were closer I'd come take a look just for the fun of adding something different to my farm (ironically I leave for milwaukee tomorrow, but I digress)


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I an sorry if it came across too strong. Sure, there are reasons for crossing some breeds. But I was just having trouble imagining any purpose for a Holstein Highland cross. Got any ideas? Besides, a cross breed isn't an equal blend of two breeds. Often you don't know what you get.
I see crossbred horses on CL all the time, no one wants them. I see crossbred cattle at Auctions and they take a deep discount if it is obvious as a Holstein Highland would be.
If you have a Holstein and want a more hardy cow, sell her and buy a Highland. If you have a Highland and want more milk, sell her and buy a milk breed. 

But a large framed cow of unrecognizable breed and a tiny, cute, calf. It is all beef, I guess.
I hate to see you cross a Jersey, a breed kept pure for hundreds of years crossed with a bull that isn't even considered a breed. Please reduce my ignorance with an explanation of your goal.
I see thousands of mostly Holstein dairy cows, but have not detected any crossbreeding movement. 
We all do things as if our choices will remain ours forever. But I see too many odd ball crosses sell in the cull pen before their time.


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

If one has a milking cow, the first order of business is usually to get it back into lactation. What hits the ground is usually an afterthought. I usually beg for a bull calf...

Eta: said all that without knowing anything about dexters. Are they a dairy breed?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Awnry Abe said:


> If one has a milking cow, the first order of business is usually to get it back into lactation. What hits the ground is usually an afterthought. I usually beg for a bull calf...
> 
> Eta: said all that without knowing anything about dexters. Are they a dairy breed?


They are a tiny dual purpose breed. Some claim gentle, but I've seen a herd that was wild as the wind. Same as many breeds, I guess. Sort of like a Boat-car or a Plane-car. Dual purpose, but not very good at either, IMHO.


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## ufo_chris (Apr 30, 2010)

Hybrid vigor is supposed to be a good thing.
Some people want traits from 2 completely different breeds ,lots of people actually.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

ufo_chris said:


> Hybrid vigor is supposed to be a good thing.
> Some people want traits from 2 completely different breeds ,lots of people actually.


Oh.
Any thoughts on what traits one might seek from a Highland Holstein? How about a Dexter Holstein Highland?
I see Herford Angus and Semimetal Angus, but those are not completely different breeds. But the dairies see are either all Holstein or all Jersey, A few will have a different breed cow or two, but crossing completely different breeds? No.
I would think that if lots of people crossed completely different breeds, we wouldn't have breeds at all, just an assortment of cattle of all sorts of traits.
Hybrid vigor is a good thing, especially if you have been breeding within a small gene pool. But, after breed organizations have spent hundreds of years selecting the best traits for their specific breed, throwing a Holstein under a Highland bull isn't likely to be seen as an improvement by either breed association or by anyone that knows cattle.
Hey it is a free world, do what you want. But I see too many sad cases go through Sale Barns that are the result of, "Hey, I wonder what this would look like?":cow:
Birth weight? Different breeds have differing calf birth weights. Can a large framed Holstein Highland cow be bred to a Holstein and safely calve a large calf? Would you have go with bulls from smaller calf birth weight breeds?
I believe that if you have one breed and you seek other traits, just sell what you have and buy what you want. If I had a Holstein and wanted a smaller cow, I'd sell her and buy a Jersey. If I had a Jersey and I wanted to have a beef cow, I'd sell her Jersey calf and buy a beef calf.
If I had a car and wanted a truck, I wouldn't cut it in half and weld on a pickup box to it. I's buy what I need.
Holsteins are large framed cattle that produce lots of milk. Half of their calves are steers, grown for meat but sell for less than beef cattle. Highlands are promoted as hearty cattle. They have lots of long hair and people often raise them for their unique look. Recently the tiny Dexter has become popular with small one cow farms. They don't eat much, produce enough milk for a family and you can eat the steers. 
Crossbreeding doesn't add traits, it only is a grab bag of traits you have not control which ones will appear. IMHO.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Haypoint, I strongly agree with you on this one. As a horse rancher and breeder, I am quite opposed to crossing out my well bred QH's or my high end Thoroubreds with any other breed. The one time I willingly crossed out my top TB mare was a very well researched, well thought out breeding for a very specific purpose. If my mare hadn't had excellent conformation and character, as well as the stallion having the same, it never would have happened. I got exactly what I desired and have never bred her again. 

I have an Appendix gelding that is "all" QH. I don't see ANYTHING of the supposed TB other side of him. He is stubborn and lazy, not what was probably intended by his previous owner. But that's what happens when you cross out two fairly different breeds, you can get nothing that suits you and you wind up passing the poor character/physical trait animal on to some else. 

I see your point in cattle. Down here there are tons of Brangus, and in fact my bull is a red Brangus. Those two breeds compliment each other nicely and make for one big, hardy beefer. Brown Swiss and Angus are crossed out a lot as well, and again they are such similar breeds that they compliment each other very well (My bull has two gorgeous bull calves on the ground out of two large Brown Swiss girls). But I can't imagine intentionally breeding a Brown Swiss with a Mini Zebu (just an example of opposite breeds ). The point would be...? Just as you are saying about your dairy cows, some crosses just won't work well and should be left alone!


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Crossbreeding and composite breeding has its place. Hybrid vigor or heterosis is about the only thing in the cattle business you can get for free! 

You aren't looking for growth from hybrid vigor in a horse, of course. 

Many beef breeds have had an infusion of Brahman blood for heat tolerance and overall toughness: Brangus, Red Brangus, Simbrah, Santa Gertrudis, Beefmaster, the Noble line, on and on. It works. The Hereford/Angus F1 black baldy cow is a queen of the commercial beef business. It works. Gelbvieh has their Balancers, and other breeds have opened up their herd books to crossbreeding, and even give it a brand name and promote it. It's working. So crossbreeding isn't automatically a bad idea, there just needs to be a plan, a sound strategy behind it. 

On the dairy side, crossing the dairy with beef should bring the milk production down to family cow levels, or "raise a calf without worrying about mastitis" levels, and also put more beef on the critter. But a Highlander wouldn't have been my first choice with Holstein, either. Seems like Jersey/Highlander makes more sense if Highland and dairy traits are what you wanted to blend.


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

Awnry Abe said:


> If one has a milking cow, the first order of business is usually to get it back into lactation. What hits the ground is usually an afterthought. I usually beg for a bull calf...
> 
> Eta: said all that without knowing anything about dexters. Are they a dairy breed?





haypoint said:


> They are a tiny dual purpose breed. Some claim gentle, but I've seen a herd that was wild as the wind. Same as many breeds, I guess. Sort of like a Boat-car or a Plane-car. Dual purpose, but not very good at either, IMHO.


I'll interrupt just to respond to this and let you see one of my most beautiful Dexters with her calf (taken a few years back); she was actually someone's family milk cow before we got her. She's a saint.


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## eon69nc (Apr 16, 2014)

I enjoy crossbreeding, JerseyXNormande, NormandeXBrahman. I know all too well about the effort involved in creating standard breeds, but for me it is my own personal choice to gain Hybrid Vigor on the calfs which go into the freeze. As I am not selling my animal to the public I dont worry about impact. I have known several ppl who have to use a local bull at hand to get milker back in production then sell offspring that is something I dont agree with.


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

eon69nc said:


> I enjoy crossbreeding, JerseyXNormande, NormandeXBrahman. I know all too well about the effort involved in creating standard breeds, but for me it is my own personal choice to gain Hybrid Vigor on the calfs which go into the freeze. As I am not selling my animal to the public I dont worry about impact. *I have known several ppl who have to use a local bull at hand to get milker back in production then sell offspring that is something I dont agree with.*


Guilty as charged. Just what is the issue here? Am I crossing some ethical line that I didn't know existed?


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## lakeportfarms (Apr 23, 2009)

What a pretty Dexter G. Seddon!
If there are questions about what a Dexter is good for, she answers it perfectly.
Compare her to what passes as a Dexter nowadays and what most are familiar with, and it is no surprise that there may be some uncertainty about what exactly defines the breed. A real shame...


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## eon69nc (Apr 16, 2014)

Abe, I don't think you are crossing any line with selling, for me it is just something I don't do. I should have stated sometimes ppl will take them to sale barn and you invest money in what for example you thought was a black angus and as it get's older you realize something just is not right. Honesty is the best policy. I was just using my practice as an example no judgement from me. I don't have any right to judge other ppl's practices as long as animals are well cared for.


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## Wintersong Farm (Aug 22, 2007)

The purpose of Highland on Holstein was to have hardy brood cows that could handle winter outside in Wisconsin. Highlanders are slow maturing, which is corrected by the crossbreeding. The Dexter bull produces a beef calf with better meat attributes than an Angus, but not suited to the wholesale market. In summary, hybrid vigor, winter hardy, good milk production, produces great beef with minimal inputs on my farm.


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

Wintersong, you're entitled to breed and cross anything you want. If it works for you on your farm, then go for it. Just realize that some crosses, esp. with 3 breeds, might be hard to sell. I hope you'll be able to sell yours. That's a very cute calf.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Buy a Hereford heifer and treat her like a show cow. Lead her, halter her tie her, touch her all over. Breed her to another Hereford and get her used to being fed in a milking stanchion. Plenty of milk for a family, hardy enough for a WI winter and a whole lot of high quality beef.

Glad you opted to get rid of the horns. Yes, that's a cute calf. 

With the reported fence jumping abilities of the Highland, I can't imagine adding Holstein legs and frame to one.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Wintersong Farm said:


> The purpose of Highland on Holstein was to have hardy brood cows that could handle winter outside in Wisconsin. Highlanders are slow maturing, which is corrected by the crossbreeding. The Dexter bull produces a beef calf with better meat attributes than an Angus, but not suited to the wholesale market. In summary, hybrid vigor, winter hardy, good milk production, produces great beef with minimal inputs on my farm.


By all means, if it works for you, then go for it 

I am fussy about crossing out, but in reality, I have done so myself with a couple of my good mares, to better a mare that I had by crossing to a large, strong stallion that I had an idea would throw a fast, but built like a tank foal, which is what I got from crossing out. 

My Brangus Bull...well...he has a couple of Brown Swiss/Brangus bull calves on the ground that are absolutely perfect. SO crossing out isn't a bad thing so much, but as for me, it is a registration and ability to sell down the road type deal.

Best of luck to you, your calf is a really nice looking little guy.


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## Spamela (Nov 23, 2013)

Same old crossbreeding argument over and over again.

I doubt anyone is going to change anyone else's mind on the subject.


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## Spamela (Nov 23, 2013)

aoconnor1 said:


> Haypoint, I strongly agree with you on this one. As a horse rancher and breeder, I am quite opposed to crossing out my well bred QH's or my high end Thoroubreds with any other breed. The one time I willingly crossed out my top TB mare was a very well researched, well thought out breeding for a very specific purpose. If my mare hadn't had excellent conformation and character, as well as the stallion having the same, it never would have happened. I got exactly what I desired and have never bred her again.
> 
> I have an Appendix gelding that is "all" QH. I don't see ANYTHING of the supposed TB other side of him. He is stubborn and lazy, not what was probably intended by his previous owner. But that's what happens when you cross out two fairly different breeds, you can get nothing that suits you and you wind up passing the poor character/physical trait animal on to some else.
> 
> I see your point in cattle. Down here there are tons of Brangus, and in fact my bull is a red Brangus. Those two breeds compliment each other nicely and make for one big, hardy beefer. Brown Swiss and Angus are crossed out a lot as well, and again they are such similar breeds that they compliment each other very well (My bull has two gorgeous bull calves on the ground out of two large Brown Swiss girls). But I can't imagine intentionally breeding a Brown Swiss with a Mini Zebu (just an example of opposite breeds ). The point would be...? Just as you are saying about your dairy cows, some crosses just won't work well and should be left alone!


I can't wrap my head around your statement about brown swiss and angus being so similar that they compliment each other. They are completely different. One is a leggy dairy breed and the other is a stout beef breed. Nor can I imagine why someone would use a brown swiss chiefly as a brood cow.

Are you sure you don't mean braunvieh? Brown swiss and braunvieh are different breeds with completely different purposes.


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## karenp (Jun 7, 2013)

I have a registered Dexter that at some point I would like to breed to a mid/mini Jersey. As someone said in the pig forum, you can always eat your mistakes. At this point, after spending most of the summer with the bull, if she isn't pregnant now, I'd breed her to a poodle if it would get her lactating.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

karenp said:


> I have a registered Dexter that at some point I would like to breed to a mid/mini Jersey. As someone said in the pig forum, you can always eat your mistakes. At this point, after spending most of the summer with the bull, if she isn't pregnant now, I'd breed her to a poodle if it would get her lactating.


At one time a Registered Dexter had some value and producing more Registered Dexters a goal.

Is your intent to produce a less beefy, better milking calf? In the breeding towards smaller Jerseys, has the focus been on dispossession and milking ability or mostly size?


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Spamela said:


> I can't wrap my head around your statement about brown swiss and angus being so similar that they compliment each other. They are completely different. One is a leggy dairy breed and the other is a stout beef breed. Nor can I imagine why someone would use a brown swiss chiefly as a brood cow.
> 
> Are you sure you don't mean braunvieh? Brown swiss and braunvieh are different breeds with completely different purposes.


Braunvieh. For whatever reason I am using the wrong term, but that seems to be what everyone down here calls them...brown Swiss. If they are different breeds, people in my sera haven't figured the yet! I'm sorry for mis-speaking, my bull is the Brangus, the cows he grazed with and bred are Braunvieh. They are very similar.

I know when I was researching what Braunvieh cattle were, at least one site called them brown Swiss. I'm sorry for any confusion.


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## karenp (Jun 7, 2013)

haypoint said:


> At one time a Registered Dexter had some value and producing more Registered Dexters a goal.
> 
> Is your intent to produce a less beefy, better milking calf? In the breeding towards smaller Jerseys, has the focus been on dispossession and milking ability or mostly size?


Although my heifer is not a "traditional Dexter" I do agree preserving the breed is important. My goal with that cross would be a better family milk cow. We'll see how much milk she produces and how much I have use for. As far as size and disposition, I couldn't ask for better than what I have.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

aoconnor1 said:


> Braunvieh. For whatever reason I am using the wrong term, but that seems to be what everyone down here calls them...brown Swiss. If they are different breeds, people in my sera haven't figured the yet! I'm sorry for mis-speaking, my bull is the Brangus, the cows he grazed with and bred are Braunvieh. They are very similar.
> 
> I know when I was researching what Braunvieh cattle were, at least one site called them brown Swiss. I'm sorry for any confusion.


I know why I am calling them brown Swiss, they originated from Braunvieh and a lot of folks down here intermix the name. Thank you for letting me know. I am a horse person, not a cattle person, but I need to know and understand breeds of cattle if I ever expect to have a herd!


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

If I could have ordered a bull for my little Cooper, it would have been Walden, Dad full Zebu, hearty heat tolerant and athletic here...mom highland/lowline cross..bulk and temperament. He is awesome, settled Coop at like 15 months, and it may be he settled AB which would really be something - after six tries at AI...but I understand Haypoints, well, point....I am a hobby farmer playing at this I can indulge, serious cow folks should pick and stick am thinking....I have arrangements for my little "cross breeds" when they pop out...bit of a waiting list, actually but with people like me


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Gosh, Farmgirl6, he's a nice looking bull. But I've just got to ask, and not to argue or debate, just out of curiosity, where are you that you need to breed more heat tolerance into a half Highland? Fess up. Are you spending your summers in south Texas and winters in Minnesota?:shrug:
I can just imagine all that DNA running around trying to decide who does what?
Do I dare ask what breed Coop is? How about AB?

I guess my objections against cross breeding goes back to the fact that most folks don't have any idea of what their cross will create. I see Animal Shelters full of "what if "s and, "I don't care who breeds who" Sad, real sad. Many people new to cattle don't know about birth weights, expecting Mother Nature to sort it out. Doesn't usually work out that way. If you aren't an expert in genetics, leave it up to the experts that culled hard for a thousand years to get what you have now. Throwing that away on a whim seems to go against my idea of having dominion over your stock.
For most folks starting out in cattle, money is tight. Many are just one disaster away from losing the whole operation. Selling off a herd member is hard, but sometimes necessary to keep the rest of the operation afloat. Then, when the buyers at the Auction won't bid beyond the stew meat price for a young healthy heifer, it makes for a bitter lesson. 
I think in most cases there is already a breed that matches your need. If your goal is to breed cows, get someone knowledgeable to help you pick a good one. Use a quality AI bull and get her bred. If no one is around that can AI, learn to do it yourself. Another marketable skill to add to your list. If that is out of the question, buy the same breed as your neighbor.
If you have a Jersey and you want more beef, breed her to a top notch Jersey. If you get a steer, oh, well it is a whole lot more meat than a couple turkeys. If you get a heifer, raise her up a bit and sell her for quite a bit and buy a Holstein steer for a lot of meat.

Or just breed whatever to whatever on a whim. As long as you are the one trying to milk or eating the resulting meat, I don't care.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

I didn't breed Walden, bought him at four months so I profess to no insightful planning, but it was funny, while I was looking for a small bull, I liked the durability and heat tolerance of the Zebu (but not so much how they looked, which is rather silly, I know), the exotic nature, history and coat of the Scottish highlands, and the lowliness, even the bulls, seem to have awesome natures...but you are completely correct, I am very fortunate in how he turned out, he could have been incredibly shaggy, flighty and nervous, ext....I just happened (or the folks who actually bred him) to end up with a full house that make him perfect for my little farm... Cooper is a Dexter/lowline Angus and Annebelle is Jersey, she seems small for a Jersey so might be dexter jersey cross, but very "tipey" if that is even a world old island Jersey and the guy I bought her from said he got her from a dairy so guessing she is all Jersey..who knows...both are going to be little milkers, and as I said, I've lots of silly friends like myself who can indulge in hobby farms so a waiting list for babies! I suppose with cows over horses you can get away with a bit of noodling around, because you can always eat a cow no matter what breed it is, eh? but if you are in it to make money, my random cross breeding and fooling about definitely not the way to do it. I do know a serious fellow who cross breeds zebu and miniature Jerseys on purpose to get a hardy, small homesteading cow that produces just enough milk for an average family and enough beef....


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

farmgirl6 said:


> ...both are going to be little milkers, and as I said, I've lots of silly friends like myself who can indulge in hobby farms so a waiting list for babies!


I commend you for being able to home your cows' offspring; that's a good thing!!!


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