# Red Cell for anemic goat ? How much How often?



## jBlaze

I have 2 goats with bottle jaw. I bought some Red Cell, but am not sure how to use it. How much do I give and How often?

THese two came with 4 others. I have a pen of about 20 goats together, and only these two have bottle jaw. These are boer. The others are some boers and some lamanchas and some pygoras. I wormed them all with Safeguard in May and with Eprinex (ivomec product) poured on in June. (we were treating for lice.) 

When I noticed the swelling on the jaw on Thursday I gave them Safeguard again, (the oral for goats stuff - higher dose than bottle, as always - I think it is weak stuff.) I also gave then Normectrin IM at a almost twice the cattle dose. 
They are acting fine, but eyelids are VERY pale. I am wanting to help them, but not sure how.

Questions:
How to use Red Cell for anemic goat?
What to de-worm them all with since what we did was not enough for these two?

Appreciate any suggstions!
Jean.


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## HappyFarmer

For an very anemic goat I would start with 6cc's red cell orally for 3-4 days. Then I would decrease it to 3 cc's daily & monitor the color of their eyelids. Depending on the severity of anemia will depend on the length of dosing.

We dose safeguard (for tapes only) 3 days in a row, orally, at double the cattle dose, once a year.

Ivermec we give 1cc/25#'s as needed, orally. Ivermec is still effective in the NorthEast. Repeat in 10 days. Your locale may may indicate you might have to switch wormers, I'll let others comment onthat.
HF


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## Jyllie63

Here is what I did when my doe had bottlejaw(it worked!). I gave 15cc the first day and then 5cc the next day and then 5cc every other day. I also used Ivermectin Plus because it took care of liverflukes. Good Luck!


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## Cannon_Farms

Word of caution that my vet gave me about red cell. It can be a great product but there are some things in there that can be toxic in large doses. 
Can anyone give a dose on the injectable iron? you can buy it at your feed store, or at least tsc's I never had to give it but imagine it might be more direct and effective.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Don't forget that Ivomec and Ivomec Plus are given orally, not by injection, even though it's the injectable formula.


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## jBlaze

Since I gave them the Ivomec plus to them as an injection, when can I give it to them orally?


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## betsy h.

1 ml Iron Dextran injectable, 1ml Multi-Min, a whopper dose of B-Complex (10ml), plus a triple dose of wormers- injectable Cydectin, Valbazen and Pyrantel Pamoate. 

This combination works very well in case of bottle jaw. Some areas of the country require THREE wormers from different families to be really effective against worms these days.

Red Cell is very good nutritional support, but the injectable iron gets in there and helps make red blood cells, which Red Cell does not.


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## jBlaze

They are looking better, but I am still wondering when I can dose them with the ivomec again.
Thanks!


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## betsy h.

*PLEASE!* Consider adding at least one different family of wormer to the treatment just now. So many people, and indeed vets- because they are not goat vets, do not understand the need to use at least two different families if anthelmentics due to resistance and the inability to get all the different types of worms with one singular family of wormers- we've been hearing the word for several years to use different families in one treatment- an avermectin (Ivomec, Cydectin), a benmezadole (Valbazen, Synanthic), and either the Pyrantel or Levamasole.

There may be a fatal relapse if only a singular family of wormer is used in a serious case. This would happen at about 10-14 days post first worming = it is called the L4 stage.


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## betsy h.

BTW> in many parts of the US, using Safegard is like pouring water on their backs- ie. It is useless.


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## jBlaze

What about Cylence?? 

Trying to learn here.


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## betsy h.

Cylence is for lice, not worms. It is a pour on product.

Some folks use ear tags that are infused with an organophosphate (like Couamphos= CoRal) by taking the part of the tag with the hole in it and putting it on the goats' collar like a flea collar. It seems to work that way.


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## Alice In TX/MO

I'd do the oral Ivomec after ten days, but that's just me.


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## jBlaze

*~*~*~*~*~*~ U P D A T E *~*~*~*~*~ U P D A T E ~*~*~*~*~*~*~~*~*~*~*~*~*~~**

Update, The doe that had the bottle jaw is due to kid in 2 weeks. She looks good.

I remembered posting this thread when I was answering a question about de-wormers on another board. I thought I would share that post here for an update about this doe. (I sold the younger doe.)

About worming. There are SO many differing opinions and advice! find a vet that knows goats, and do a few fecal samples till you get a good grasp. 
I went through a good preventative on our herd, wormed everyone same day, every 3 weeks, for 9 weeks. All the wormies should have been gone. I would have to look at my records to see which types we gave how, but it should have been well covered. Within 6 weeks of doing so, we had two does develope bottle jaw, which is an indicator of heavy worm load. I supplemented with iron (red-cel and 2 or 3 iron injections), I gave the ivomec type injected and the safeguard at the same time. Then a week later I used the ivomec orally. still battled the bottle jaw, but it was better, this went on for some time. THe doe that had it real bad was pregnant, and I hated to keep treating her, and needed to get rid of the worms. 
Here is what I did:
My horse vet (a couple years prior) had me drench de-worm my horses, this meant giving twice the normal dose of safeguard for five days in a row. yes. (safeguard is fenbendazol, and is really a pretty weak wormer) So, that is what I did for the doe. I treated her with twice my normal goat dosage 3 times in 5 days (a busy month). She has been fine since. She has not kidded yet, but looks good, and not treating her would have been worse. Now, I normally give the safeguard at a higher rate than the bottle says anyways, and I increased that.

I am far from an expert on goat de-worming!! I just wanted to point out that 1) there are many differing opinions and conflicting advice. 2) sometimes ya just gotta do what ya gotta do. 3) keep in mind that there are few products that are labeled for use on goats, and the feedstores are not allowed to help you with "off-label use." The dosages listed on the labels for other species are different when used on goats, as is the application. 


I'll ty to remember to update again after she kids.


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## Jyllie63

I'm glad she is doing good! It took my doe quite awhile to recover from the bottlejaw as well, but today she seems to be healthy and happy


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## Briza

Jblaze you would help the efficacy of your worm regime if you copper bolus. 
Blood suckers are more easily controlled with proper mineral intake and bolusing has helped those of us in the south with long warm seasons and wet ground with parasite problems. 
You are right about fecals. The only way to know what you are doing.
Anemia is not fast to reverse. By the time you have pale membranes you have anemia and a lot of work back to a fully healthy animal. 
Hopefully her fetuses are normal with that chemical soup.
B~


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## Feathers-N-Fur

I don't know where in OR you are, but I can tell you that I like near OSU and was just talking to one of their vets about my worming. I use ivomec and do fecals so I know it works on my farm. My problem, is in how fast the worm load comes back. He told me to worm twice, 14 days apart to kill any that weren't mature enough to be killed with the first dose. They (OSU vets) have been watching for resistance to ivomec but haven't seen any for sure cases YET. If you are near Corvallis, they are doing their sheep and goat clinics soon. You can get free ultrasounds, castration or dehorning. It is interesting talking to the student about what they are being taught about goats.


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## jBlaze

Briza said:


> Jblaze you would help the efficacy of your worm regime if you copper bolus.
> B~



YES!!!! I DO Need to Copper Suplement!!

I tried it once, and the things I used were huge, and I need to get the smaller ones and try again! After I go try to figure out the dosages again...!!


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Once you see worm burdens so out of control you have anemia, causing bottle jaw, nobodies normal management of how they worm at their farm is going to touch this. Bottle jaw is caused by anemia, which means you have blood sucking worms, which means safeguard (unless used at the same time with another wormer, cocktail) Ivermectin, etc...are worthless. Ivermectin Plus will get it if it's liver flukes, but use your Cydectin for HC. It's nearly always one of the two of these that causes bottle jaw in goats.

Prevention, learn to fecal, it's such a cheap easy alternative to using all these chemicals in your goats...they have to process all these chemicals and herbs through their liver, your literally killing them, their production and their ability to have any kind of immunity to keep the numbers of parasites in their system (which is perfectly normal) low enough not to cause problems. Vicki


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## jBlaze

Vicki,
Can you please define HC?

Thanks Dear! 

and I don't recall if I used the ivermectin PLUS or not. 
Can you use Cydectin on pregnant does?


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## momagoat61

Hope you don't mind Vicki I posted a couple link's concerning the HC >/ Haemonchus Contortus/ BarberPole Worms and the problems they can cause.
The HC's / BarberPole Worms have resulted in many goat deaths. Since I finally got a control on the numbers I haven't lost a single goat to them now in almost 2.5 years. Sandy 
http://www.alpacawatch.com/GoatBarbePoleWorms.pdf
http://www.scsrpc.org/SCSRPC/Files/Joan/COWP Use 3.pdf


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Yes you can use cydectin on pregnant does. Since I fecal I know in my herd few adult worms are laying eggs this time of year. But let the does kid, their numbers will rise quickly. HC and now liverflukes are huge problems in the south with our long dry summers and very wet winters, even problems in cattle herds. Why fecal sampling is so important along with checking anemia in your goats eyelids, is that you don't want to be using anything during the implantation period of the pregnancy, nothing. So don't guess, find out. Plus it is simply too expensive to use anything all the time in your herd, be it chemical or herbal. Why pay for it if it isn't needed? Vicki


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## Redneck_Royalty

I do ivermectin injectable at 1 cc per 50 pounds. I mix it with propelene glycerol to make my own drench. You just have to do some math to figure out how much you want to give to each goat. I mix up enough for 3 doses per animal, then dose by weight.

Usually I put 2 ccs of ivermectin, and 4 cc's of the p/g. So a 100 pound goat gets 6 ccs total, a 150 pound goat gets 9ccs and so on. Also if you drench them with a drench syringe (I got a kid feeding attachment for a regular luer lock syringe that I love at valley vet) You want to be sure you deliver it to the back of the throat and they swallow it, so depense it slowly. Diluting it this way, helps prevent too much of the medication going into the true stomach by accident. You want it to go into the rumen.

I repeat the dose, every ten days for 3 doses for pregnant does, if I see a worm issue using fecals, or my eyeballs tell me they are wormy.

On does that are not pregnant, I use valbazan still, I give 1 cc per 10 pounds, administered as above with a drench syringe. I repeat it 3 times, 10 days apart.

If I suspect liver flukes, I use levesole sheep boluses, 1 per 50 pounds. I put the boluses in the syringe, crunch them with the plunger, then add warm water, shake and let sit a few minutes, shake ect until all is dissolved. Again 3 doses every 10 days. With levesole, be sure of the goats weight, as it is easy to over dose and can be fatal. 

I also copper bolus, I do 1 gram of the copper wire particles per 50 pounds. This has helped my worm loads as well as our copper deficiency. Be careful though and check with breeders around you and see what they are doing, as copper toxicity can also occur.

Hope someone will find that helpful. Some of these wormers don't work in some areas, they do work here in SW missouri for me.


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## VA Susan

betsy h. said:


> *PLEASE!* Consider adding at least one different family of wormer to the treatment just now. So many people, and indeed vets- because they are not goat vets, do not understand the need to use at least two different families if anthelmentics due to resistance and the inability to get all the different types of worms with one singular family of wormers- we've been hearing the word for several years to use different families in one treatment- an avermectin (Ivomec, Cydectin), a benmezadole (Valbazen, Synanthic), and either the Pyrantel or Levamasole.
> 
> There may be a fatal relapse if only a singular family of wormer is used in a serious case. This would happen at about 10-14 days post first worming = it is called the L4 stage.


Thanks for this information, Betsy. A large animal vet said to dose our buckling (for stomach worms) with a 5 X dose of Safegard together with a normal dose of Cydectin drench. The buckling was wormed with Cydectin when we got him but was full of worms when we tested him ten days later so we think these worms are resistant to the Cydectin. I read that Safeguard works best when used with another class of wormer. Would Valbazen be in a different class from Safegard and could they be used together?


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## OLH

Be careful worming a goat with a severe worm load and anemic it could kill off all the worms attached to the guts and when they all fall off they could bleed internally and that could result in the death of the goat


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## Caprice Acres

This is an extremely old post.


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## wintrrwolf

HappyFarmer said:


> For an very anemic goat I would start with 6cc's red cell orally for 3-4 days. Then I would decrease it to 3 cc's daily & monitor the color of their eyelids. Depending on the severity of anemia will depend on the length of dosing.
> 
> We dose safeguard (for tapes only) 3 days in a row, orally, at double the cattle dose, once a year.
> 
> Ivermec we give 1cc/25#'s as needed, orally. Ivermec is still effective in the NorthEast. Repeat in 10 days. Your locale may may indicate you might have to switch wormers, I'll let others comment onthat.
> HF


so that is 6cc of red cell once a day?


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## motdaugrnds

I was reading this old thread because it contains a lot of great information.

Problem now is that NOWHERE can I find Ivermectin "Plus". Does anyone know where I might get some? Is there a quality substitute for this?


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## Caprice Acres

There are several name and off brands available. Looks like many have the small bottles out of stock, but you can still get bigger bottles.


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