# Gun Safes... Info/Opinions requested



## HowlingFarms

Hey all,

We just recently came to the conclusion that we really should get a gun safe. We have about 8 long guns of various sizes and configurations and two hand guns. We also have a small safe that is just a cheapy sentry safe we picked up for documents and such that we'd like to part ways with and put the documents and valuables into the gun safe as well. 

With two kids, we felt that it's time to take the plunge (without breaking the bank) in a safe that is budget friendly, but secure. 

We currently live in a suburban area outside of Houston, TX, but plan on moving to our property (out of state) within the next 5-10yrs. We do not intend on increasing our gun collection any time soon either, so we want something that will last quite a while and something we'll be able to move with us.

Can anyone recommend a good safe for under $1000? a TINY bit more may be acceptable, but we can't afford much more for this project! We're trying to stay away from the big box store safes if possible.

Any suggestions are appreciated!!


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## M5farm

HowlingSprings said:


> Hey all,
> 
> We just recently came to the conclusion that we really should get a gun safe. We have about 8 long guns of various sizes and configurations and two hand guns. We also have a small safe that is just a cheapy sentry safe we picked up for documents and such that we'd like to part ways with and put the documents and valuables into the gun safe as well.
> 
> With two kids, we felt that it's time to take the plunge (without breaking the bank) in a safe that is budget friendly, but secure.
> 
> We currently live in a suburban area outside of Houston, TX, but plan on moving to our property (out of state) within the next 5-10yrs. We do not intend on increasing our gun collection any time soon either, so we want something that will last quite a while and something we'll be able to move with us.
> 
> Can anyone recommend a good safe for under $1000? a TINY bit more may be acceptable, but we can't afford much more for this project! We're trying to stay away from the big box store safes if possible.
> 
> Any suggestions are appreciated!!


I bought a cannon wide body safe last yr at tractor supply for 700.bucks on sale. Lifetime warranty and im very satisfied with it. Its a 64gun IIRC. They typically run a huge sale on them around thanksgiving


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## Murby

I bought a safe and did a ton of research into this... From reading on the gun forums, watching youtube video's, talking to gun shops and people who sell safes. I spent a year doing my homework to learn what I needed to know.

First question.. Why do you want a safe?

Are you trying to protect what's inside the safe? Valuables, money, etc? 
Or are you trying to protect what's outside the safe? Kids?

You will not find a safe for $1000 that will stop a thief and a good pry bar who's done their homework and has 10 minutes of free time to get into it.

If you're just trying to stop your own kids from getting at those guns or from losing your documents, just about any big-box-store safe will work.. In fact, go as cheap as possible because anything with a lock on it will work fine, even a padlock.

But if you're trying to stop the burglar from cracking it open while you're on vacation, you won't find a $1000 safe that can do that. In fact, even a $2000 safe will only stop the amateurs who go house to house stealing televisions and stuff. 

I know those safes look tough with the big round shiny door bolts.. but, as with most consumer products, its "all show and no go".. 

The body of those safes are usually thinner than 11ga steel and any cordless angle grinder with a slicer blade can go through the side of the safe in under two or three minutes. yup! That fast.

The best place to store important papers is in a safe deposit box at a bank.. 

Best place to store cash is to vacuum seal it and bury it 12 inches into the ground.

Put insurance on everything else and let them steal it. 

Again, if you're just trying to lock up the guns to protect the children, ANY box with a padlock will work.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

my advice is get the biggest one you can with the most room if you have 8 guns and can afford a 30 gun safe do it my other advice is use cloth sleeves , when gun safes start to get full they start to get banged into each other a bit trying to get them out a simple cloth sleeve is enough to keep the nice ones form getting bumps.


one more piece of advice , get a mechanical combination not the touch pad


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## Fishindude

I have two safes, both heavy steel, fireproof, etc. One is a Cannon and one is a Browning. First, I will tell you that they absolutely will not hold as many long guns as they advertise to hold, particularly if the guns have scopes and slings on them. They comfortably hold about 2/3 of what they say they will, so go big.

Not to pick on Murby too bad, but getting into one of these safes in a couple minutes as suggested isn't going to happen. Most break ins are not performed by real "pros" and getting one open will be a very noisy (which burglars don't like), and time consuming job. Further, using an abrasive tool to cut open a safe will throw serious sparks which will do horrible damage to the guns inside. Any thief smart enough to cut one open knows this. Most commonly, they take the entire safe, load it up and haul it somewhere that they can take their time getting it open. Knowing this, make sure it is securely bolted to a concrete floor.

Guns are expensive to insure. The cost of that insurance coverage for a couple years will pay for a good safe. Walk thru any big sporting goods store like Cabelas, Gander Mountain, Bass Pro, etc. and you will have quite a few to choose from for your budget.


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## Murby

Fishindude said:


> Not to pick on Murby too bad, but getting into one of these safes in a couple minutes as suggested isn't going to happen. Most break ins are not performed by real "pros" and getting one open will be a very noisy (which burglars don't like), and time consuming job.


May I direct your attention to the following:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8ViUdd-2LM[/ame]

It doesn't take a pro to use a crowbar or a prying bar. 



> Further, using an abrasive tool to cut open a safe will throw serious sparks which will do horrible damage to the guns inside. Any thief smart enough to cut one open knows this.


I would disagree with this. If the thief is going after a $40,000 rare antique then you have a point.. Other than that, the sparks thrown off from a 4-1/2 inch angle grinder with a standard 0.040" thick slicer blade would not do any functional or significant damage to any gun. Most certainly not to money, jewelry, or other valuables.

If I can have sparks being thrown 6 inches into my bare hand from one of these slicer wheels and barely feel it, it certainly won't damage a weapon.



> Most commonly, they take the entire safe, load it up and haul it somewhere that they can take their time getting it open. Knowing this, make sure it is securely bolted to a concrete floor.


Bolt it to the floor is a very good idea and standard in the industry. It needs to be bolted to a concrete floor however.




> Walk thru any big sporting goods store like Cabelas, Gander Mountain, Bass Pro, etc. and you will have quite a few to choose from for your budget.


All consumer garbage.. flashy paint jobs designed to fool the uneducated customer into thinking they are quality units. See video above.

Here's another one.. Looks like another multi-brand safe made in China.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktZyAQ6GK6c[/ame]


Liberty makes a quality safe.. but you have to get one of their higher end models to get the quality.. Their lower models are just as junk as the rest.

Amsec makes a really nice one too.. Most of their models are decent.. higher end models are really nice.

But for the money, a company called "Study Safe" probably makes the best.. They sacrifice polish and shine for extra thick steel plating.. Dollar for dollar, you get more bang for your buck with a Sturdy Safe Co. unit. Not the kind of thing you want to display in your living room, but no pry bar is going to open it.


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## Fishindude

I won't argue that quality of safes differ, and can't dispute the videos, but keep in mind those videos are made by safe professionals trying to promote their own safe products. They know how the safe is built and they know what tools is takes to get one open, where to pry, etc. 

The average home break in is performed by some bum or meth head that doesn't know this stuff, won't have the ability or tools to do it, and if it's bolted to the concrete floor can't tip it over like they did. He will flee with the easy to grab stuff rather than fight a locked safe. 

Professional burglars are few and far between, and most would probably be looking for a bigger payday than they could get from a residence.


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## M5farm

Cannon has a good warranty that will suffice 99.9% of the population. Most homeowners only want some fire protection and a secure place to store guns. If you have hundreds of thousands of valuables then I would recommend getting a high end safe . DO I expect mine to deter a criminal intent on getting into it . NO . will it deter a crack head or petty thief's. YES nothing and I mean nothing is truly secure if you have the right tools. Look at each manufacture compare the warranty decide what you can afford and buy it. Then locate it the home in a secure area and preferably on an exterior wall in case of a fire.


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## Murby

Fishindude said:


> I won't argue that quality of safes differ, and can't dispute the videos, but keep in mind those videos are made by safe professionals trying to promote their own safe products. They know how the safe is built and they know what tools is takes to get one open, where to pry, etc.


I agree.. And so does anyone who watches youtube videos.. 



> The average home break in is performed by some bum or meth head that doesn't know this stuff, won't have the ability or tools to do it, and if it's bolted to the concrete floor can't tip it over like they did. He will flee with the easy to grab stuff rather than fight a locked safe.


Yup.. and that's a fact. Most druggies will see a safe and just ignore it.....
If you get robbed, better hope its a meth head and not someone in the business of making money.



> Professional burglars are few and far between, and most would probably be looking for a bigger payday than they could get from a residence.


Ya, but it doesn't take a professional with a Mission Impossible - James Bond style, electronic super duper decryption device to get the job done.

The fact that a common 3ft pry bar can do the job in under 2 minutes is frightening. 

Try that pry bar on a Study Safe and it won't work. 

As I was saying.. it all depends on what you want from the safe.. Are you trying to protect loved ones or trying to protect the contents.

If you're just worried about kids getting their hands on the guns, any box with a padlock will work.

One other thing.. The fire protection rating on these devices is also a joke in many circumstances. While they would probably do the job in a minor fire, they usually fail in major fires when homes with basements burn to the ground.
The reason for this is that when a home on a basement burns to the ground, everything upstairs eventually ends up in the basement... the basement walls then help to hold the heat in and the temperature goes up beyond the safes ability to withstand it. 

Do your research, decide what it is you want out of the safe.. then get what's appropriate. 

Just don't go blindly to the store and purchase a spit and polish box thinking its going to protect all your stuff from all threats..


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

a lot of the electric keypad safes share the same technology and if you search on the net there is a guy who has a video showing you exactly where to put the magnet from your mag mount CB antenna you snagged off a car and click the handle can be turned disengaging the bolts 

the guy who made the video went to the manufacturer first and told them of it but they refused to change and recall the safes and still sell them 


locks keep honest people honest but they only serve to slow others down

most any safe will keep the easy grab and go just need another dime bag criminal from getting in , or your kids , but like others have said anything can be gotten into 

if you think noise is a big concern if you don't share a wall with your neighbor chances are they will hear nothing 100 feet between houses everyone A/C running 


fire protection and keeping honest people honest is all you can really afford , remember to bolt it down 

usually the front is the strongest , make them have to work to get to a side or back like in a closet


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

one of the guys at the range did have a fire took the back of his house the fire department was able to save much of the structure 

his fire safe was of about the type your going to get for 1k but the fire was out before the floor burnt though his guns were fine

a business I worked for in the 90s had a fire the fire resistant file cabinets actually did a good job till the floor burned through and they fell from the second story office above the shop in the pole barn that housed the business , it was a hot hot fire , the work van down wind 20 feet the side of the transition in the 1990 E350 van was melted , the owners gold wing parked in the shop was a frame , rings and gears, chain saws were a bar, chain , rings spark plugs attached to a puddle of aluminum after the fire 

about 1 in 3 of the file cabinets broke open , the rest had singed edges of paper work , partially melted VHS tapes but we are talking a total loss fire 

adding layers of drywall around something like a safe can add to the fire protection also


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## Bearfootfarm

> It doesn't take a pro to use a crowbar or a prying bar.


You'll notice all those examples show a safe laying on it's back and with lots of room around it to work .

A FULL safe with a couple of lag screws into wall studs or floor joists, installed in a closet, won't allow them room to use their tools without doing major demolition first.


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## Murby

Bearfootfarm said:


> You'll notice all those examples show a safe laying on it's back and with lots of room around it to work .
> 
> A FULL safe with a couple of lag screws into wall studs or floor joists, installed in a closet, won't allow them room to use their tools without doing major demolition first.


That's absolutely correct... 

However, notice the slicer wheel in the photo below.. I use these wheels daily and go through about 200 of them a year..
Its called a slicer wheel.. they're about .030 to .045 thick and designed to cut edge on. 
I can cut a 12 inch long slice through a piece of 1/8 (0.125" thick) (11ga) steel in well under a minute.. (30 - 40 seconds?)... 

Someone mentioned sparks? These aren't grinding wheels.. while they do create sparks, it is minimal and wouldn't even do any damage to a painted sheet of drywall in that closet.

The big box store safes are made of even thinner steel as most are 14ga which at 0.0747 thick, is only a bit more than half the thickness of 1/8 plate.

It would take less than 3 to 4 minutes to cut right through the side of one of those safes.

Cordless angle grinders are $100 or less and those wheels are about $1/each on ebay. 

Even a meth head could do that. 

As an engineer, I pay attention to these kinds of details.. Hopefully the meth head's don't, but anyone with even a small amount of metal working experience will know to use one. 
Personally, I think two people using two slicers could get the valuables out of that safe in less time than the pry bar guys.. and there's no need to even move the safe so long as one side is accessible.


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## Bearfootfarm

> As an engineer, I pay attention to these kinds of details..


The walls of most fireproof safes are far thicker than what that little cutter can handle.

I realize those Youtube videos are popular, but I've never heard of anyone actually getting into a quality safe in a real life situation without hours to work on it



> The big box store *safes *are made of even thinner steel as most are 14ga which at 0.0747 thick, is only a bit more than half the thickness of 1/8 plate.


Those aren't what I would call "safes".
They are lockable storage cabinets

These Brownings are all thicker than 14 Ga:
http://www.gunsafesamerica.com/browning-specs-features/


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## Murby

Bearfootfarm said:


> The walls of most fireproof safes are far thicker than what that little cutter can handle.


No they're not.. The specs on these safes are clearly listed as being made of 14 gauge steel on almost all of these "box store" units. Even the higher end models are still 14 gauge.
I think I found one model on the Cannon website that was listed at 12ga thickness.. The difference between 12ga and 14ga is barely worth discussing.

What you interpret as a thick wall is nothing more than the sheet metal being bent at the edges to accommodate some insulation.. 
Heck, 14 gauge isn't even categorized at plate steel.. its considered sheet metal. 
They don't start calling it plate steel until its at least 1/8 thick.

I did my homework on this stuff and know what I'm talking about.... 




> I realize those Youtube videos are popular, but I've never heard of anyone actually getting into a quality safe in a real life situation without hours to work on it


The key word here is "quality safe".. and you'd be correct. Try to get into a higher end Fort Knox or Amsec unit and you'll be there a while trying to break into that $5000+ box. 

But as for these consumer box store safes, they are all garbage and do not provide much more protection than a standard metal cabinet with a padlock on it. ya.. a little more, but not much.
They're good for keeping the guns away from your kids.... great stuff for that kind of thing.. and of course a meth-head won't bother with them.. But the average burglar making money ripping off homes while you're on vacation? It won't stand up to them.


Here's a defeated browning safe: 
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/02/17/gun-safes-just-how-strong-is-yours/

Notice the nice smooth cut edges... then fold the thin sheet metal down and you're in! 
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi251.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg286%2FTGrayman%2FSafes%2Fsafecracked4.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ar15.com%2Farchive%2Ftopic.html%3Fb%3D1%26f%3D5%26t%3D1587962&docid=cAJIOern5vA1LM&tbnid=UpeZEee0lea41M%3A&w=768&h=1024&ved=0ahUKEwj29dK3_qPOAhVE7YMKHV-lA0IQMwgyKBEwEQ&iact=mrc&uact=8&biw=1725&bih=923


This is what I suggest people should purchase.... :thumb:
Should provide a few extra minutes of protection...


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## Bearfootfarm

> I did my homework on this stuff and *know what I'm talking about*....





> The specs on these safes are *clearly listed as being made of 14 gauge steel* on almost all of these "box store" units


So you're saying the link I posted lied about the thickness of the metal they used?
Why would they do that when it's easy to measure? All of them are thicker than 14 GA

http://www.gunsafesamerica.com/browning-specs-features/

The safe "wall" is more than just the outer shell.

There's usually an inch or more of refractory, depending on the "fire rating" and another inner shell of metal.

The pictures still don't tell you what tools were used nor how long it took.


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## alleyyooper

*Must be a real crime ring around some ones place that bring crow bars and small grinders with cut off wheels to open a safe with Maybe a couple of guns or if lucky more. How would they know a safe is worth the time to open unless it is some one that knows you and has seen the inside of your safe.*

I suggest you buy a quality safe as much as you can afford get one double the capacity you think you need. I have a 30 gun safe and have a few hidden about because I ran out of room but if my son takes his I will have the room. If you can bolt it into a concrete floor but if not use as big of bolts as you can to bolt it down to the floor. 

One other bit of advice is to *buy as big of golden rod as you can afford* that will fit inside your safe. I have two 18 inch ones running down the sides.

http://www.safeandlockstore.com/gun-saver-goldenrod-dehumidifier-12-and-18-inch-models/

I used those pellet ones at first that you can dry out and reuse. Forgot to check them and some rust showed up on a well used model 94 so I got the golden rods and you know they are working every time you open the safe, because it is warm in there.


 Al


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## Darren

Buy a cheapie safe and make it difficult to get to. Do not store your guns in the safe. In this area the thieves take the entire safe even when they've been bolted to the floor.

Store your guns somewhere else that's hidden and to the eye blocked from sight. There's some really clever furniture available with hidden spaces. Consider building a hidden room.

Use the safe as something to get and keep the thieves attention. Put something into it so it weighs enough to fool them when they haul it out of the house.


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## Fishindude

Real life scenario:

An acquaintance of mine had his home broken into while on vacation by typical dope head criminals that do most home break ins. His gun safe was upstairs, but unfortunately not bolted to floor or walls. They tipped it over, slid it down the stairs, loaded it in a truck and hauled it elsewhere to break in to it.

What got them caught was renting an abrasive saw at a tool rental store. By the time they were caught, they had gotten the safe open and sold most of the guns. What guns they had not yet sold, were pretty damaged by the sparks created from the abrasive saw.

The majority of home break ins are not performed by 007 James Bond cat burglars. If you are extremely paranoid or have extremely valuable items, insure them or store them elsewhere. Security systems are another consideration. 

Something else ..... Don't make posts on places like Facebook when you are away on vacation. May as well say "We're gone, come rob my house". An individual I work with had exactly this happen, and the dummy still posts photos on Facebook when he is traveling.


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## Murby

Bearfootfarm said:


> So you're saying the link I posted lied about the thickness of the metal they used?
> Why would they do that when it's easy to measure? All of them are thicker than 14 GA
> 
> http://www.gunsafesamerica.com/browning-specs-features/
> 
> The safe "wall" is more than just the outer shell.
> 
> The pictures still don't tell you what tools were used nor how long it took.


Sorry Bearfoot.. I missed that link for some reason.. 

Ya, as gun safes go, Browning makes an *ever so slightly* better unit.... Their higher end models on your link "Pinnacle" seem to be made out of 1/8 inch steel while the rest of the units are 10ga to 12ga.. I believe they also seam weld the entire unit instead of stitch welding. Let me know if you can find one for under $3000.

An angle grinder with a slicer wheel would take about 4 -6 minutes to open a sizeable hole through the side of an 11 gauge safe..

I think its also fair to point out that you're not going to find a Browning Safe bigger than a shoebox for $1000 or less. I couldn't find the prices for the models you show but I'm fairly certain that even the smallest and lowest model on that page (12ga thin walls) will start at around $1800.. then go up to around $4000 from there. All for a tin can with 12ga to 1/8 inch walls?? Its consumer junk, although admittedly, their junk is slightly better then the rotting trash others sell. 



> There's usually an inch or more of refractory, depending on the "fire rating" and another inner shell of metal.


Most of the "refractory" that are in these consumer safes is nothing more than a double layer of 1/2 inch drywall sandwiched between the outside sheet metal and the very very thin inside sheet metal. The insulation or refractory they use is also cheap garbage.

A quality safe will use either a true poured concrete based refractory or use a ceramic wool based blanket.

AmSec uses a poured refractory and they embed scrap metal into it as a sort of reinforcement to slow down chiseling. That's actually pretty ingenious.

Sturdy Safe Company uses a 2300 degF ceramic wool insulation.. The same stuff I use when I engineer high temperature ovens. Its an expensive material, white in color, and very high quality stuff. 



> The pictures still don't tell you what tools were used nor how long it took.


Honestly bearfoot, I don't need the photos to tell me what they used. I know exactly what kind of tool will go through those safes in a matter of time measured in just seconds. Those angle grinders and slicer wheels are available at almost every hardware store.. and quite cheap. Ever used one? You'd be frightened at how effective they are for cutting steel.. Like I said, I use them every single day.

No safe with walls thinner than 3/16 of an inch will be any kind of a challenge for a slicer wheel mounted on a 4-1/2 inch angle grinder. When you start getting into 3/16 and 1/4 inch plate steel, the slicer wheel starts to slow way way down due to heat build up. A 12 x 12 hole through 3/16 would take 30 minutes or more and cause a host of other problems that would have to be solved. 

If you want to stop someone with an IQ over two digits from getting in your safe, the walls need to be 3/16 absolute minimum and then another 1/8 inch inside. 

As far as I know, there are no safes on the market for less than $2500 that will even slow down an angle grinder w/slicer wheel. The closest I have ever seen was a Sturdy Safe Co unit.. They are about $2500 for a smaller size and come with 3/16 walls, 11ga inner wall, 3/8" thick front door.. That's pretty good for a $2500 safe.. and they are ugly.. but who cares I guess.


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## Murby

Here's another solution...
The latest thing I've seen on the market that would be even more effective than a safe is a hidden room!!
It doesn't need to be an entire room. They're building false walls these days that give you a 12 to 18 inch deep space that 99.99% of the population of thieves would never think to look for or find. 
The cool thing is that if you're even a little clever, you could build one yourself for really cheap.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

Murby how is cutting the front door of the safe ?

if all you could get to was the front door how would that change your ability to gain access to a safe of the big box store variety ?


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## Fishindude

A hidden closet behind a book case, or something like that would be pretty darned cool.

Here's another real life scenario from an acquaintance that my buddy used to work for.
This guy built a concrete gun room in his basement with a vault door. As you can imagine, vault doors are heavy and awkward to open and close, so being a lazy dude this guy tended to leave it open while home. Well, the knucklehead took off somewhere for a trip and forgot to close the vault door. His home was broken into and they cleaned him out of several hundred guns. Only a couple were ever recovered by the cops.


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## Murby

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> Murby how is cutting the front door of the safe ?
> 
> if all you could get to was the front door how would that change your ability to gain access to a safe of the big box store variety ?


You would greatly increase the security by making the sides inaccessible..

It would probably double or triple the amount of time needed.

Here's the thing though... 
Take a look at the piece of plate steel on the front of the door in this photo: This is a solid piece of 3/8 thick steel.. (this is very good) It is a good indication of a higher quality safe.










Now take a look at the rolled sheet metal of this door:
This is bad. It looks thick, but its hollow inside.. Slicer would go right through it.









Consumer trickery.. Big thick door looks strong and intimidating.. its all air! 

A good safe will have a solid piece of plate steel door that is at a minimum of 1/4 inch (very low end but decent enough), up to 1/2 inch thick.. (good luck cutting through that, hope you have lots of time)..

I should note that there are a few safes that are good and have nice thick plate steel doors, but they are dressed up and sort of look like the lower quality doors to hide the steel plate rough edges.

When you inspect a safe, open the door half way, brace the bottom of the door by placing your foot against it and the ground.. then reach up to the top of the door and pull it towards you as hard as you can... If the door "flexes" even a little, its a piece of junk.

The moral of the story? You must read the specs on the safes! If they won't provide them, walk away. 

If you are trying to get a good safe but don't want to spent all your money, I would look for a used unit.. Even if you have to travel a state or two away to get it. 
For the best "bang for your buck", I would get a Sturdy Safe if you can stand looking at an ugly duckling box.. 
If you need some flash and show, my next choice would be an AmSec BF series.. 

Best way to save money, buy a used safe! Its not a car, they don't wear out or anything like that. You just need to make sure that if you buy it from a private seller that they never know where you live or who you are.. Either that, or you'll have to change the lock combination for good measure.

By the way.. the advice you got about about staying away from the digital locks was good advice. Get a manual "Group 2" lock. I think most safes have them standard now.


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## Murby

This is a good educational video..

Jump forward to the 2 minute mark and watch it.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltK-bDbADa8[/ame]


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## mustangglp

As far as keeping kids safe the best thing i's to teach them gun safety! It's curiosity that gets them killed not discounting the safe but I would teach them gun safety too.
How long the fire department response is a factor on fire rating as far as theft secrecy is the best thing most all these safes can be opened up with a saws all in minutes. 
The tractor supply ones look like a good bang for the buck to me.


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## Fishindude

Lot's of good info, thanks !


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## HowlingFarms

Murby said:


> Here's another solution...
> The latest thing I've seen on the market that would be even more effective than a safe is a hidden room!!


Currently we don't have the ability to do a hidden room. Once we move (we're building a custom home) we will be doing this very thing. We even want to play with this idea some and do the hidden door concept, think of the magic bookcases, etc. but more practical.



Murby said:


> You would greatly increase the security by making the sides inaccessible..


I totally agree, we really need the safe to keep the kids out and store our documents. The security portion is important where we live but I don't think too many people will be coming in with power tools and pry bars unless they know there is a safe to be broken in to. And like you said, the sides will be inaccessible for the most part. We have a narrow closet so putting the safe on it's side will be a task on it's own. I also intend to place this in a corner of the closet and build another wall on the 3rd open side with shelves so I have some vertical storage too.



mustangglp said:


> As far as keeping kids safe the best thing i's to teach them gun safety! It's curiosity that gets them killed not discounting the safe but I would teach them gun safety too.


This is absolutely true. Our 10yr old daughter is well aware of what guns are and what they're capable of. It's our infant who's going to be growing up with them (our daughter did not until she was 5yrs old) that we want to make sure they're not accessible until he's fully aware of the what/how.

Thanks everyone for the advice and input! I ended up going with a Stack-On Elite series (24 gun). Waiting for it to be delivered in the next couple of weeks. I liked the Stack-On Elite because while it is electronic lock, it has a back up key. Hard to find others that offered this setup. I almost wanted to go with the dual lock system, but felt a key would be easier for my situations.... now where to hid the key?! LOL


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## Murby

HowlingSprings said:


> I liked the Stack-On Elite because while it is electronic lock, it has a back up key. Hard to find others that offered this setup. I almost wanted to go with the dual lock system, but felt a key would be easier for my situations.... now where to hid the key?! LOL


That key is a serious weak spot.. Its the one feature I would have avoided at all cost.

It all depends on your purpose though.. glad you got something to keep those kids safe... 
And at least now you don't have to worry about a retarded meth head either.


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## carolpalmer

Do check for the specifications like the burglary rating, type of container, steel outer sheet, body welds, door hinges, door seal, lock types(dial or electronic keypad combination), lock rating (Mechanical - UL 768 Group II, UL 768 Group I and electronic - UL 768 Group I). Check for the fire rating (duration like 30 minutes or 1 hour). Another important aspect is the fire insulation type ( Gypsum Drywall, Fiberglass/ceramic, poured concrete amalgamate). The fire insulation thickness can be either 1", 1.5" or more. Check if they steel inner fire liner. Inspect for interior electrical connection.
But before you start your research on the best commercial security safes, plan on how much you want to save in your gun safe? How valuable are they? How often might you open it? How much theft and protection you need in this regard? Any limitations with respect to the location. Best wishes.


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## Texaspredatorhu

For the most part I don't tell many people of the high value stuff I have. If someone breaks into your house and spends the time with a "slicer" they probably know what's in the safe, security fail on your part.


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## Texaspredatorhu

Murby said:


> You would greatly increase the security by making the sides inaccessible..
> 
> It would probably double or triple the amount of time needed.
> 
> Here's the thing though...
> Take a look at the piece of plate steel on the front of the door in this photo: This is a solid piece of 3/8 thick steel.. (this is very good) It is a good indication of a higher quality safe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now take a look at the rolled sheet metal of this door:
> This is bad. It looks thick, but its hollow inside.. Slicer would go right through it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Consumer trickery.. Big thick door looks strong and intimidating.. its all air!
> 
> A good safe will have a solid piece of plate steel door that is at a minimum of 1/4 inch (very low end but decent enough), up to 1/2 inch thick.. (good luck cutting through that, hope you have lots of time)..
> 
> I should note that there are a few safes that are good and have nice thick plate steel doors, but they are dressed up and sort of look like the lower quality doors to hide the steel plate rough edges.
> 
> When you inspect a safe, open the door half way, brace the bottom of the door by placing your foot against it and the ground.. then reach up to the top of the door and pull it towards you as hard as you can... If the door "flexes" even a little, its a piece of junk.
> 
> The moral of the story? You must read the specs on the safes! If they won't provide them, walk away.
> 
> If you are trying to get a good safe but don't want to spent all your money, I would look for a used unit.. Even if you have to travel a state or two away to get it.
> For the best "bang for your buck", I would get a Sturdy Safe if you can stand looking at an ugly duckling box..
> If you need some flash and show, my next choice would be an AmSec BF series..
> 
> Best way to save money, buy a used safe! Its not a car, they don't wear out or anything like that. You just need to make sure that if you buy it from a private seller that they never know where you live or who you are.. Either that, or you'll have to change the lock combination for good measure.
> 
> By the way.. the advice you got about about staying away from the digital locks was good advice. Get a manual "Group 2" lock. I think most safes have them standard now.


That's all the first pic has is a plate steel front everything else has rolled corners. If you use your slicer method I'll go through the side and not the front. Not to mention the chicken crap welds every 18".


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## GTX63

Texaspredatorhu said:


> For the most part I don't tell many people of the high value stuff I have. If someone breaks into your house and spends the time with a "slicer" they probably know what's in the safe, security fail on your part.


If you are a typical lunch box Joe, the type of burgler you will attract isn't the Sean Connery type. It is more of the meth head who runs out the back door carrying your tv while it is still plugged in.
If you are upper middle class, then you adapt your security to your lifestyle.
Pay attention to friends of your kids. If someone enters your home and goes straight for your safe with tools to make quick entry, it is almost certain they were in the house before and/or are known to you.
Safes are like door locks; they are designed to keep honest folks honest and slow down the rest. But they won't stop someone intent on stealing. A $700 safe can be put into a wall, anchored to the floor, etc and can greatly increase the amount of time ( or cause the thief to give up) it takes to gain entry. But for the average person, it is more about who knows what you got than what you keep it in.


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## krackin

And if you are just a country working Joe, the aggressor will have the back of his head spread clear across the road. We have such fun in the country, being simple and all. Stop by!


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## Bearfootfarm

> now *where* to hid the key?! LOL


Hopefully somewhere you can find it even in the dark.

I often hang them from a small nail or magnet above the door inside a small closet.
Almost no one thinks to look there.

You can also attach a small magnet to the inside of a drawer frame on a night stand or dresser.

The side of a window frame is another good spot if you have curtains or drapes that would conceal it.

Have extras made and stored in more than one location.


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## TroyT

A safe is about buying time, no safe is totally secure. A plasma cutter will open just about any safe on the market. An oxygen lance torch, will cut concrete as well as steel. If someone can build a safe, someone else can crack it. A safe is just one component of an well thought out (hopefully) redundant integrated security plan.


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## Chuck R.

TroyT said:


> A safe is about buying time, no safe is totally secure. A plasma cutter will open just about any safe on the market. An oxygen lance torch, will cut concrete as well as steel. If someone can build a safe, someone else can crack it. A safe is just one component of an well thought out (hopefully) redundant integrated security plan.


This is my view as well. 

I have a Cannon Safe that I've had since 1991, pretty solid, not very expensive and has served well. Most of my truly expensive guns are inside. It sits inside a safe room made of reinforced concrete with a Sturdy "Vault Door" on it. 

Neither are impenetrable, both buy time. 

In addition to the safe and vault door I have an alarm system with perimeter penetration and infra-red motion detection. It's job is to reduce the amount of time available to penetrate the 1st 2 deterrents and also acts as a deterrent.

It's a layered approach.

Chuck


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## Bungiex88

There is no big box store safe that can hold up to a grinder. They all look different and different brands but the truth is there all the same. One thing to look for in better safes is steel plated door that is the 1st step to a better safe. Probably the cheapest good safe you can probably get would be a American security a lot of there models have steel plated doors. But if money wasn't a problem I would reccoment sturdysafe.Com as soon as I can afford the one I want my cannon is getting replaced. I own a cannon from tractor supply but it's in the basement in a corner in a concrete room and is heavy enough fully loaded it takes at least 3 big guys to slide it anywhere. If all you can afford is big box store brands you can always take percussions to make it a little more secure with placement in the house.​


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