# ohio christian militia bust?



## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

I am waiting to hear real news on this bust. Seems they were preparing for survival and the coming of the anti christ? And they were paranoid, practiced survival skills..and had guns? I am waiting to see what the crime is that warrants massive swarms of gvt officials at their residences?reminds me a bit of ruby ridge and waco. Is it a case of dangerous people or a sign of gvt out of control? anyone hear more on this?


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## Calico Katie (Sep 12, 2003)

There's a thread on this in General Chat if you're interested. Opinions are divided and valid information still seems rather skimpy.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

From CNN:

"The five-count indictment unsealed Monday charges that since August 2008, the defendants, acting as a Lenawee County, Michigan, militia group called the Hutaree, conspired to oppose by force the authority of the U.S. government."

"...attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence."


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

What is most telling to me, at least, is that when they called a nearby volunteer militia for "a place to hide" the head of the militia said "no. you can't come here". Sounds like there may well be very good reasons for the arrests. 

Survival and Preps are all very well and good, but some take it just TOO FAR. The crimes as listed make it sound more like a gang from inner city than survivalists.


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## 7.62mmFMJ (Nov 19, 2008)

Sounds to me like they are starting to round up "survivalists"

The government needs compliant citizens.


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## Deacon Mike (May 23, 2007)

The basis of the charges involves an alledged plot to kill law enforcement officers.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

The charges against these men and women are very thin. The basis of the charge seems to be that they trained with firearms and explosives and discussed at length a theoretical point in the future at which they might kill law enforcement. We've discussed that very thing in this very forum when talking about "what if" scenarios. Should we all be rounded up by the FBI as well? Some of you have said that if law enforcement were to try to take your guns you'd fight back, or if the government sends law enforcement to confiscate food caches you'd fight back. If you've said that in the past, or if you believe it, then you're guilty of the same crimes these Hutaree militia are being charged with.

Because of their fringe beliefs, they are a convenient target for the government at a time when the government needs to show that "right-wing extremists" constitute a threat to governmental authority.

It may surprise you to know that threats have been made recently to turn THIS forum into the Department of Homeland Security. It could just as easily have been us that the FBI swooped in on. The headlines would read, "Survivalist Fringe Group Discussed Revolution on the Internet - Nabbed in Multi-state Raid" and then on another forum somewhere people would be discussing about how WE had it coming.

You want to survive and remain at liberty? Don't talk about what you're doing. Don't take photos or video and post them on the internet. Don't associate with people who do and _watch your opsec!_


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## gideonprime (Oct 17, 2007)

7.62mmFMJ said:


> Sounds to me like they are starting to round up "survivalists"
> 
> *The government needs compliant citizens*.


That's why they should legalize pot. You get a happy hungry suggestable public. Who could ask for more Just kiddin!


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## 7.62mmFMJ (Nov 19, 2008)

I agree with Ernie. This is an OPSEC Fail lesson.

This is the new era and all the tools previously used to look for the Jihadists will now be turned on "survivalists" that are not dependent on the government. Double-edge sword.

The coup continues. And the useful idiots hold the party line. I just about choked when Martha McCallum on FOX this morning already had these people tried and convicted and a retired FBI agent had to tell her that Americans have the right to assemble and have guns and even practice with guns! Whodathunkit? She looked like she smelled something bad.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Ernie said:


> The charges against these men and women are very thin. The basis of the charge seems to be that they trained with firearms and explosives and discussed at length a theoretical point in the future at which they might kill law enforcement. We've discussed that very thing in this very forum when talking about "what if" scenarios. Should we all be rounded up by the FBI as well? Some of you have said that if law enforcement were to try to take your guns you'd fight back, or if the government sends law enforcement to confiscate food caches you'd fight back. If you've said that in the past, or if you believe it, then you're guilty of the same crimes these Hutaree militia are being charged with.
> 
> Because of their fringe beliefs, they are a convenient target for the government at a time when the government needs to show that "right-wing extremists" constitute a threat to governmental authority.
> 
> ...


I agree with you Ernie. This is "Pre Crime" against a specific section of the population(what was that TOm Cruise movie, Minority Report?) God knows how many of many different "persuations" have done the same thing as these people.

That said, I will keep watching for more info on this, and stupid is as stupid does.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

They obviously did not pay attention to Monty Pyton's "How not to be seen", nor paid attention to the consequences...LOL!
Matt

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idXgVLpB6bY[/ame]


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

According to the news (various sources). The groups plan was to assasinate a law enforcement officer. After that, the plan was to wait until the funeral and ambush all of the law enforecement personell who came to the funeral.

After that, their plan was to fall back to defensive positions and usher in their revolution. (under the belief that others would join them)

Of all the hypthetical scenarios I've heard on this forum, I HAVE NEVER HEARD ANYONE PLAN TO KILL ANYONE TO START SOMETHING.

The Feds don't waste multi-state resources on a bunch of yahoos shooting bottles down by the river. 

I doubt their evidence will be revealed until it's leaked from the trial, as this is an ongoing investigation. Phone records will be checked. Cellphones confiscated and "friend"lists checked, computer logs, documents and files examined for points of origin, etc. 

There will be more busts in the upcoming weeks.

The scary thing is, if you follow the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon, you may be somewhat connected to these knuckleheads!..... or Godzilla.


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## puddlejumper007 (Jan 12, 2008)




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## adenblue (Apr 12, 2008)

Did GC thread get disappeared?


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

The latest news, AND their own website, says that they are extreme right wing "warriors for God" and will start a war with the anti-christs- the evil jews to bring about the 2nd comming. They espouse killing law officers and going to war to protect all Christians.

now....if you put the word Muslims in place of Christians...that's exactly what the Jihaadist promote. Attack the law. Go to war with the evil. Protect and provide a place for the true children of God...the devout Muslim.

so....me....I'm not ABOUT to defend right wing terrorists any more than I would defend a Left wing terrorist. period. 

Guys...Even the other militia say they're violent extremists.


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

Looks a lot like somebody forgot to read the constitution before this roundup took place.

Our founding fathers never heard of "sealed" warrants, and they put very little faith in "various sources" for information. They did somehow see an need to "keep and bear arms".

This whole thing sounds like a govt. "test drive" to see if Americans are still asleep.:yawn:


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## tiffnzacsmom (Jan 26, 2006)

Some of you may not have ever seen what a town goes through when a police officer is killed, especially if it's by an unknown killer. First, these men and women don't make nearly enough for the job that is required of them and most have families that they are trying to support. Second, a number of years ago we had an officer shot in town, to do this day we don't know for sure why he was killed or even if he was the target as he was covering another officer's foot patrol. I remember having to leave my neighborhood when one of the suspects were under surveillance, there were snipers on roof tops aimed at the road I had to travel, it is not something that I want to ever go through again. If these people are willing to kill a cop and then open fire on cops that come from across the nation and Canada to pay respects for another officer then there is no use for them in my books. Anyone that sick and twisted needs taken out and put down like the rabid dogs that they are.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

adenblue said:


> Did GC thread get disappeared?


Yes, it was deleted as it had gotten nasty. So mod of that forum decided to delete it.

This one is on very thin ice, so please be careful in your manner of discussion (not accusations).

And be aware - that this forum can be read by anyone that comes by, they do not have to be logged in (as you do in GC).


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Didn't that renegade George Washington head up a Christian Militia way back when ? Heck, he got a monument out of the deal and his face on the Federal Reserve Note.

How times change.


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## Loquisimo (Nov 14, 2009)

AP article on the Hutaree raids:

http://www.sacbee.com/2010/03/29/2642063/christian-militia-accused-of-plotting.html

The sort of thinking that a terrorist act would spark a general uprising against the govt has been seen before in extreme militia circles. That was one goal of the Oklahoma City plotters, and also of two men convicted of plotting to blow up a massive propane tank-part of a propane storage and sales facility-near Sacramento at midnight on January 1, 2000 in the hopes that the act would spark a rebellion. Usually such people are so immersed in the idea that Americans are chomping at the bit to revolt that they can't think straight. The weird thing is, unlike during the Clinton administration when the charge of sedition was avoided, the Obamites have happily charged the Hutarees with sedition. It bears watching, especially if there are more raids against different groups.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Ernie said:


> The charges against these men and women are very thin. The basis of the charge seems to be that they trained with firearms and explosives and discussed at length a theoretical point in the future at which they might kill law enforcement. We've discussed that very thing in this very forum when talking about "what if" scenarios. Should we all be rounded up by the FBI as well? Some of you have said that if law enforcement were to try to take your guns you'd fight back, or if the government sends law enforcement to confiscate food caches you'd fight back. If you've said that in the past, or if you believe it, then you're guilty of the same crimes these Hutaree militia are being charged with.
> 
> Because of their fringe beliefs, they are a convenient target for the government at a time when the government needs to show that "right-wing extremists" constitute a threat to governmental authority.
> 
> ...


Paranoia will destroy ya , Its real simple if you dont promote illegal activity you have nothing to fear from anyone. If you run around the net talking about marching on Washington guns drawn then you might end up with a knock at your door .

In the case of these fools if you plan out an attack on law enforcement, Then they may just kick your door down and if you have pipe bombs you'r likely to end up in jail for a long time .

if you think someone would have to turn you in for the FBI to redflag you your very uninformed . Nearly all survivalist forums are watched and have been for years just as all firearms forums and fireworks forums are . Bots are programmed to record any post with key phrases or words this has been the case since 2002 and in some case's earlier .

As for this group look a bit closer


> By COREY WILLIAMS and DEVLIN BARRETT, Associated Press Writers â 4 mins ago
> DETROIT â Nine suspects tied to a Midwest Christian militia that was preparing for the Antichrist were charged with conspiring to kill police officers, then attack a funeral using homemade bombs in the hopes of killing more law enforcement personnel, federal prosecutors said Monday.
> The Michigan-based group, called Hutaree, planned to use the attack on police as a catalyst for a larger uprising against the government, according to newly unsealed court papers. U.S. Attorney Barbara McQuade said agents moved on the group because its members were planning a violent reconnaissance mission sometime in April.
> Members of the group, including its leader, David Brian Stone, also known as "Captain Hutaree," were charged following FBI raids over the weekend on locations in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana.*
> ...


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Alex Jones is/was holding his nose with "This stinks of a fed set up".

I tend to agree.

Part of the "public conditioning"


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

7.62mmFMJ said:


> I agree with Ernie. This is an OPSEC Fail lesson.
> 
> This is the new era and all the tools previously used to look for the Jihadists will now be turned on "survivalists" that are not dependent on the government.


With out a doubt..More will follow.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

Our founding fathers created the Constitution with a wide range of laws to protect it's citizens from criminals who would abuse the right to bear arms.

If the government really wanted to circumvent these laws and put these guys down, they have it well within their power to just make them disappear quietly (of course, that would not be legal - but they have the resources). They didn't need to go kicking down doors with the news media watching.

One would fall down a flight of steps and break his neck on his way home from work. Another would get killed in a hit and run while getting groceries. Yet another might have fallen to a hunting accident.

And yes. every post you make leaves electronic footprints. Router IPs that go to local internet service providers that can be subpoenaed for IP routing schemes that lead to your home. Or if you're mobile, to your laptop or cellphone. MAC address logs that ID your computer like a fingerprint.

Anyone ever hear of Echelon?


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

PyroDon said:


> ....Nearly all survivalist forums are watched and have been for years just as all firearms forums and fireworks forums are ....



This is a survivalist forum? I just came here to learn how to raise chickens and get a recipe for strawberry jam!


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I think Don may be specifically referring to this particular forum on this site.

Many times forum is used when site would mean the whole of HT.

I view this more as a place to survive all the things we've talked of many time - downturn in jobs, severe weather, and anything that disrupts the flow of our regularly planned life.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> I think Don may be specifically referring to this particular forum on this site.
> 
> Many times forum is used when site would mean the whole of HT.
> 
> I view this more as a place to survive all the things we've talked of many time - downturn in jobs, severe weather, and anything that disrupts the flow of our regularly planned life.


true enough and I have to agree as far as survival forums go SE&P is very tame


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I could see the arrest, if the militia leaders had vested up, mags loaded, got in their rigs, told folks they were on their way to do something bad....

but, thinking about it??? Conspiracy to commit is a broad broad loop to throw...

Big Brother is alive and well.

I wonder when the power returns to Conservatives, if they'll start rounding up members of ACORN, MOVEon.org, ACLU, (name a pet cause of the left).

I guess I'm a libertarian.... I don't care what you do, what you own, as long as you don't hurt others. You can think about it, but if you 'do it', you pay. I abhor Nannystaters, who demand their world have a thin veneer of safety cast over them.


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## Ode (Sep 20, 2006)

I don't know much about them, other than the little that has been in the news. That said, I hope these individuals are given a very fair and open trial, because that seems the most likely way to get rid of any suspicions by some that this is all some kind of government setup to get rid of survivalist types.

I have no wish to be associated in any way with violent extremists, as it sounds like these folk are. I consider my self more of a prepper than anything else, however the term survivalist has taken on negative connotations for some reason in the general (unprepareded types) population and I think groups like them are the reason why. I want to survive natural disasters, pandemics, war, and the random nutjob crackhead looking for a target. I prepare for what I can, but have never ever even in a joking or speculative conversation kind of way ever talked about murdering people and/or their families in order to bring about the second coming of a new world order or for any other reason.

I tend to believe there was probably very good cause for arresting these people, and we will all find out the truth of things in time. You don't need to actually carry out a murder in order for it to count as a crime, the act of planning the thing is a crime in itself. Would any of you think it would have been wrong to arrest the Unibomber or Timothy McVeigh before their bombs were actually delivered? I think this is along those same lines. If the authorities had waited, who knows what could have happened? Like I said earlier, I hope they all get a very fair and open trial. I want to know what happened. And if it turns out they did these things then I am glad they are all out of commission and unable to harm anyone.


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## BamaSpek (Aug 15, 2008)

Gunna be another news special with a huge stash of guns, stored food and wacko's all in one segment with a voice over talking about how we all need to be protected from said wacko's. (with the word Christian or religious added in every 2 mins for good measure)! 

Won't be long before everyone who stores food, has a gun cabinet, owns a bible, or paints his shed and house the same color will be branded a full fledged extremist cult leader of a multi building compound. 

I don't know if these guys were crazy, stupid, or unlucky...or a combo of the three. I do know probably no good will come of it for the rest of us. Every time some guy with a Miller Lite in one hand and a boat ore in the other gets filmed standing in front of his flooded home, talking about he's gunna rebuild again... my insurance premiums go up......cause the insurance company feels they can justify it. Wonder what the Powers that handle extremists will feel they can justify after this media circus. . :hammer:


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## wvstuck (Sep 19, 2008)

First of all, is the media and big bro telling the truth, the whole truth or a different version of a truth... They also told you that health care was going to be good for everyone... Just saying!


_Heidi Beirich, research director of the Southern Poverty Law Center, said her group learned about Hutaree last year while compiling its annual list of "patriot groups.""Their Christian apocalyptic vision is quite different from most other militias," Beirich said. "Most don't put their religion first -- they're more concerned with out-of-control federal government."
_

_Quoted from a foxnews.com article - http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/28/arrests-alleged-militia-activity-midwest/_


*So what is the view here? It's ok to be against an out of control government, just don't have a Christian view that contains prophecy?*

I certainly don't agree with the charges as reported. I would never think it is ok to plan an attack on an unsuspecting officer of the law to further an agenda. In God's eyes that would be murder, if you are using God's word as a justification for your actions, you first need to understand the word and live your life as Christ outlined. The charges may very well be as honest as the day is long, but with the current administration's record of deceit one can never be sure. One thing is for sure though, the media and certain officials will play this out to be terrorism from within and they will try to get as many miles as they can squeeze out if it.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

And yet, some people can't see the danger in giving the federal government more power.

Just sayin'.

Either those guys _were_ crazy to think 13 of them could, as is being reported, 'declare war on the federal government' or somebody's lying.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

seems to me the government has been pushing us in the direction of a armed revolt. it just was not happening fast enough for them, so they are taking the round about approach. trying to open the door for martial law.
if this flys just wait and see what else they try.

the media is nothing more then a well trained parrot, so still waiting for some solid facts here.


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## tiffnzacsmom (Jan 26, 2006)

Conspiracy to commit murder has always been against the law. If I talked to someone about paying them to kill my ex I would be breaking the law even if he was never killed. What these people did is very similar and would be a crime no matter what faith they claimed.


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

tiffnzacsmom said:


> Conspiracy to commit murder has always been against the law. If I talked to someone about paying them to kill my ex I would be breaking the law even if he was never killed. What these people did is very similar and would be a crime no matter what faith they claimed.


Then why aren't the feds rounding up all the Muslims who meet in "houses of worship" to discuss and endorse the killing of us "infidels?" Seems like a double standard to me.

I guess my question is, were these folks planning a particular attack at a certain time and location or just chewing the fat about maybe someday doing something? I would think that would make a difference, wouldn't it?:shrug: 

Not saying I agree with anyone threatening to commit murder in the name of Christianity, just that I'd like to see more concrete evidence that these people are more than loudmouthed kooks.


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## QuiltingLady2 (Jan 3, 2007)

> Is it a case of dangerous people or a sign of gvt out of control? anyone hear more on this?


IMO - this is a sign of crazy people who are out of control. For some reason - maybe they are listening to way to much faux news commentators lol - they think that violent acts will work for good. who knows. They need to be in jail. JMO


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

QuiltingLady2 said:


> IMO - this is a sign of crazy people who are out of control. For some reason - maybe they are listening to way to much faux news commentators lol - they think that violent acts will work for good. who knows. They need to be in jail. JMO


I actually wholeheartedly agree with you. Only I suspect that we're talking about two totally different sets of crazy, out-of-control people.

One set is a bunch of overweight buffoons running around in the Michigan woods pretending to be a danger to anyone other than themselves. 

The other set is a bunch of buffoons running around in the Michigan woods arresting everyone in complete violation of the Constitution and the rule of law. 

The main difference between you and I is that I support NEITHER set while you wholeheartedly endorse the latter.


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## Jay (Feb 5, 2008)

IMHO, when they were running (scared) and freaking out, the shoe was on the other foot.
If you literally plan on dishing it out, you'd better be prepared to take it as well.

It's not a game or even a bad fantasy. I think it might of been a reality check for them (in real time!).


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

Txsteader said:


> And yet, some people can't see the danger in giving the federal government more power.
> 
> Just sayin'.
> 
> Either those guys _were_ crazy to think 13 of them could, as is being reported, 'declare war on the federal government' or somebody's lying.


Like Charles Manson. His whole agenda was to start a race war by killing a few whites and blaming it on the blacks. He really thought (and had convinced his followers) that they could do it. 

I know people who think that a few well placed shots will start a war. After all, it's happened before. when Europe was at a tipping point...one assassination started the ball rolling downhill. All it takes is a few people yelling about "THE <whatevers> DID IT!! BLAME THEM!!" and the crowd will turn on the <whatevers>. 

I, personally, have NO problem believing that someone who is slightly charismatic can find followers who will believe that it's their DUTY to start a war by killing police officers. Never mind that the police aren't government...they're simply guys with families who are doing a job as it's given to them. There are a LOT of people out there (Artificer's sister being one of them) who can be convinced to do almost anything by someone with a strong will or who will give them a little attention.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Ernie said:


> I actually wholeheartedly agree with you. Only I suspect that we're talking about two totally different sets of crazy, out-of-control people.
> 
> One set is a bunch of overweight buffoons running around in the Michigan woods pretending to be a danger to anyone other than themselves.
> 
> ...


In violation of the constitution ?? Please sight where and how this is a violation??? 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_115.html

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000842----000-.html



> (2) Prohibition.â It shall be unlawful for any personâ
> (A) to teach or demonstrate the making or use of an explosive, a destructive device, or a weapon of mass destruction, or to distribute by any means information pertaining to, in whole or in part, the manufacture or use of an explosive, destructive device, or weapon of mass destruction, with the intent that the teaching, demonstration, or information be used for, or in furtherance of, an activity that constitutes a Federal crime of violence;


seems the law is pretty clear on this .

If you want to work with explosives you should know the law and what licensing and permits are required


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I talk about Constitution and you talk about law. Come back and discuss things when you have learned the difference.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Ernie has a valid point. 

many laws are unconstitutional. 

anyone want to play a game, give me your address and name. I'll make three phone calls
and we will see how fast someones on your porch with a sealed warrant or even none at all. really all it takes any more. that and the right buzz phrases like terrorist,
fundamentalist,militia,neonazi,white supremacist bet you can think of more.

fact is half of you have already convicted these people, bet you guys watch lots of cops and judge judy. so untill the evidence is gone over by the two lawyers the judge and the good citizens on the jury, it is a accusation by the authoritys.

I can see someone haveing a agenda behind such a action, these people are very fringe
and everyone knew it. if I had just such a agenda I dont think I would be knocking at the popes door and selling this. no I would find people just like this,just look half you guys already found them guilty. 

how many gangs do this same thing, I will admit that they dont want to have contact with police but most have no problem shooting them if they do. 

with the fiasco's ruby ridge and waco I have little faith in our authoritys and what they say. they have a agenda and that is to control. 

so you go ahead and just eat everthing they feed you dont be a free thinker just accept the good word after all it is the goverment, you can trust them. 

but the better thing to do is to read between the lines and use your head.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Actually the constitution is the law , Id have thought a sudo law student such as yourself Ernie would have understood that . When I was in school that was 4th grade social studies. 

I asked what portion of the constitution is being violated .
not the 4th amendment and certainly not the fifth they had every right to keep their mouths shut and not incriminate themselves , Instead they broad cast their plans . 
The 1st was not violated as they had every right to practice what ever religion they chose and its obvious their freedom of speech was not violated as it was what provided evidence of their conspiracy to murder law enforcement officers .
So Im curious as to what grounds one would use to claim the arrest was unconstitutional. Warrants were aquired based on evidence 

As for Waco and ruby ridge the issue wasnt whether or not the government had the legal warrants (which they did ) it was the excessive use of force involved in serving those warrants . In both cases those being served got exactly what they wanted , which was to give the government a black eye.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

Article I Section 8 US CONSTITUTION

"The Congress shall have the Power:

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress"

I'm sure many of you have copies of this. You know, that wrinkley brown paper copy you got for $5 at the museum store.

I don't think those guys were called forth by Congress (who are empowered by our Constitution and elected by the people by the way) to kill cops. 

Sure. The charges are by the government "so they say". But they will have their day in open court. The evidence will be revealed and they will be judged by a jury of their peers.

Look! I'm no fan of the current regime. I certainly don't like the recent events that are going to dig into my pockets to buy bandaids for other people's ills. But we have about 3 years to get things in place, convince others - PEACEFULLY - and get a congress that more accurately represents what we want as citizens. If you didn't vote, you have no right to complain. You certainly don't have the right to plot murder.

If we're lucky, we can get it right in Nov 2012 - to be immediatly followed by the end of the Earth according to the Mayan calendar.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Again, look at the grand jury indictment. They are not being charged with the conspiracy to commit murder.

So while the government keeps saying that they wanted to kill cops and their families, pay very close attention to what they put in the indictment. The FBI knows they can say whatever they want to the press, however they have to tell the truth in the indictment. If the government had a case for murder they would put it in the indictment. 

Look at what they have. "Seditious conspiracy". That's a catch-all that could have indicted anyone from the authors of the Federalist Papers to the fictional author John Ross.

Look, folks. Some folks are saying that this indictment won't stick and was specifically meant to drive a wedge between the militias and 2nd amendment advocates and the Oathkeepers. You see, one thing that people love is their cops. We love the idea of cops much more than the reality, for the most part. And a LOT of cops have signed the Oathkeepers pledge. So now the Federal government is trying to convince local law enforcement that the militias, and other armed citizenry, is their biggest enemy.

It's working too.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Again, look at the grand jury indictment. They are not being charged with the conspiracy to commit murder.
> 
> So while the government keeps saying that they wanted to kill cops and their families, pay very close attention to what they put in the indictment. The FBI knows they can say whatever they want to the press, however they have to tell the truth in the indictment. If the government had a case for murder they would put it in the indictment.
> 
> ...


Ok Perry Mason lets look at this there was never a claim of murder the charge is Conspiracy. Meaning to plan a crime which happens to be illegal.
funny thing about sedition Laws , Adams introduced some of the worst, you know that federalist Adams. Then of course over the years others have been passed interestingly enough nearly every one was proposed by a conservative .
I am however still waiting for your reasoning on your claim of this arrest or charges being unconstitutional. Seems many make that claim and never can back it up 
As for the fed trying to convince LEOs that militias are their biggest enemy , well id like to see some proof of that as well . In this case it seems the militias own statements told law enforcement they were enemies , with their armed fred phelps imitation


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

Ernie said:


> It may surprise you to know that threats have been made recently to turn THIS forum into the Department of Homeland Security. It could just as easily have been us that the FBI swooped in on.


How do you know this? I'm sure our board is monitored by Big Brother, but what makes you think this is true? Plus, all of us are spread out across the world, dehydrating our veggies...a lot different than a group in one place planning deaths.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

If we did not have so many >"buffoons"< running amuck in our "gubermint" . .we wouldn't be having this discussion..................


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Sealed warrants ... if you can't show a warrant to the person being arrested, they have the legal right to defend themselves against police officers as established in the case of _John Bad Elk versus The United States_. You show up at someone's door with a "sealed warrant" then it's an unconstitutional arrest. If the Hutaree had shot one of those FBI agents then they would have been perfectly within their rights to do so as established by SCOTUS. Wisely, however, the seven unarmed Hutaree decided not to resist when over 300 agents with armored tanks, helicopters, and assault vehicles rolled up on them at a memorial service.

Educate me. Which sedition laws did Adams introduce?

Also in the indictment there is no "conspiracy to commit murder" charge.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

Jim-mi said:


> If we did not have so many >"buffoons"< running amuck in our "gubermint" . .we wouldn't be having this discussion..................


Unfortunately, some of us VOTED those buffoons into office to represent us! (not me personally).

We are a war weary nation and we selected our current high command because we thought they could bring CHANGE. We made our bed, now we have to sleep in it.

Luckily, the nightmare only lasts 4 years at a stretch (again, thanks to our Constitution).

It's the price we pay for freedom. I can tell people - Don't smoke! you'll get cancer! - But we're free to smoke as we please. I told my friends - Hey! Do you really think the country would be good in this guys hands? - But they were free to vote as they please.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Sealed warrants ... if you can't show a warrant to the person being arrested, they have the legal right to defend themselves against police officers as established in the case of _John Bad Elk versus The United States_. You show up at someone's door with a "sealed warrant" then it's an unconstitutional arrest. If the Hutaree had shot one of those FBI agents then they would have been perfectly within their rights to do so as established by SCOTUS. Wisely, however, the seven unarmed Hutaree decided not to resist when over 300 agents with armored tanks, helicopters, and assault vehicles rolled up on them at a memorial service.
> 
> Educate me. Which sedition laws did Adams introduce?
> 
> Also in the indictment there is no "conspiracy to commit murder" charge.


Im shocked as well read as you claim to be you have never read "The man without a country" which was based on the use of sedition law. 
Theres also a rather heated exchange in letters between that liberal T Jefferson and Adams concerning the law .

http://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/ourdocs/Alien.html
http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestones/sedition/
Now your arguing semantics :smiley-laughing013:

Sealed warrant means that its contents are not made public, Im quite sure those arrested saw what they were being arrested for but feel free to produce proof Im wrong in that assumption


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I'll have to read that book. As far as my claims to be well read, I post sources when I say things (which often happen to be books I've read) and I can spell and properly punctuate. That tends to lend the air of the erudite to one's posts. 

Do you think they were shown what was in that warrant before or after they were facedown on the floor with an MP5 pressed up against their ear?


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Ernie said:


> I'll have to read that book. As far as my claims to be well read, I post sources when I say things (which often happen to be books I've read) and I can spell and properly punctuate. That tends to lend the air of the erudite to one's posts.
> 
> Do you think they were shown what was in that warrant before or after they were facedown on the floor with an MP5 pressed up against their ear?


Yes and I take for granted that Im discussing topics with well read and well informed adults capable of using a search engine 

Quite true dyslexics are at a disadvantage on internet forums when it comes to spelling nazi's and those who can find no other course to attack the statements made .

Im quite sure they didnt see the warrant until they were in custody as is the normal case with arresting potentially violent offenders , do you show the same concern for drug dealers? 

BTW you will enjoy the book its actually quite good loosely based on history yet shows how easily such laws can be abused .


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Ah. So you used a fiction story "loosely based on history" to show me how John Adams wrote America's sedition laws?

Nevermind. My fault for thinking we could have a serious conversation. That'll teach me.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Ah. So you used a fiction story "loosely based on history" to show me how John Adams wrote America's sedition laws?
> 
> Nevermind. My fault for thinking we could have a serious conversation. That'll teach me.


No I gave you links to Adams alien sedition act.

The man without a country is based on how such acts can be misused . 
actually thats something we might even agree on if you werent trying so hard to claim Im wrong :hysterical:


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

I don't know whether or not it was constitutional. I don't know if that militia was just blowing smoke or not. But if they had really planned on murdering police, then I'm glad they were taken down. I know and am friends with many of the police here (I work in Hammond, where they arrested one of the men)I talk often to the police how come here to the hospital, I hang out with a few on my breaks. It frightens me, this hate people feel. Bad things have happened in the name of religion before, many times before. All over the world. So it is quite believable that they were serious. Thats all I'm going to say on the matter.....take care.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

They had the hearing for the Hammond man today in the fed building across the street from where I work. I didn't drive by to see if there was a commotion over there but I wonder how it went. I'll have to ask the bailif if it was a circus. He comes and eats lunch in our caffeteria often and boy does he have stories.


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## adenblue (Apr 12, 2008)

Let us know if you hear anything Nickie. I found this article interesting. This guy was definitely prepping for something and that appears to have been used against him by the judge.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

adenblue said:


> Let us know if you hear anything Nickie. I found this article interesting. This guy was definitely prepping for something and that appears to have been used against him by the judge.


Thanks for the Article. I wouldn't be surprised about anything in Hammond. When I lived here it felt as if there was this dark cloud of evil hanging over this city---I'm serious. I would NOT want to be stuck here if TSHTF even if it were a small event. The first night I spent in the trailer when I moved from Hammond, I felt this intense peace. It sounds crazy but the atmosphere in Hammond just kind of breeds bad things. If I didn't work here, I'd wash my hands of the city all together and be glad to never see it again.

Hopefully I'll talk to my courthouse friend tomorrow. I usually see him everyday during the week, at least for a few minutes.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I've been to places like that. And the opposite, places where the atmosphere is good and you feel happy just being there. (One example I'd cite is Ann Arbor. Despite it's large liberal population ... I like visiting there.)


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

Ernie said:


> I've been to places like that. And the opposite, places where the atmosphere is good and you feel happy just being there. (One example I'd cite is Ann Arbor. Despite it's large liberal population ... I like visiting there.)


Hey, sounds like a good place, I keep intending to visit ann arbor---I would likely fit right in, being quite liberal and all.:thumb:


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Well, if you do then make sure you go visit Zingerman's Deli and buy some of that wonderful UNPASTEURIZED cheese. I had some today and I bet even a liberal would like it, if they can get past the guilt of breaking the law.


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## Ode (Sep 20, 2006)

Unpasturized cheese is legal as long as it is aged a certain amount of time, though I can't remember what that time is! Zingerman's is pretty good, but you might also want to check out Whole Foods and Trader Joe's. If you go to the Whole Foods on Washtenaw, Trader Joe's is right up the street just a bit. Hubby and I do most of our shopping at Whole Foods, because the produce and animal products are just so much higher in quality than other stores. They have a lot more types of everything too, and will gladly give you a sample to taste of anything in the store.

Drat it, now I am getting hungry! *scowl* We are going there to pick up a cake for my birthday Friday, they have a faboosh Blood Orange Chocolate cake that is heavenly.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Aww ... I felt better about it when I thought I was breaking the law. Why'd you have to ruin it for me?


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## Ode (Sep 20, 2006)

Hey Ernie, np! It was my pleasure! *evil grin* :hysterical:


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

I might as well make a trip there. After all it wouldn't be a long drive...i can throw a rock and hit michigan from here.


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## oz in SC V2.0 (Dec 19, 2008)

Quite interesting who HERE has about tried and convicted these guys(have no idea who they are,have been without news since Monday) but the same person believed Muslims captured in Charleston SC were innocent...

Hmmm,of course there IS a different guy in the WH now and THAT makes a lot of difference to some people...suddenly the same standards no longer apply.

I find the more illuminating part of all this is reading how many 'independent, free thinking individualists' that post here are ready to believe almost anything the fedgov. OR the media tells them...

People should remember THAT when the time comes,just because Bob or Betty down the road believe ' just like you ' do in personal freedom and all the other claptrap you read doesn't ACTUALLY mean they won't sell you out to the fedgov. goons in a minute.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

^^^ aint that the truth

Ernie thanks for being a good example for sniffing out the facts, making an effort to figure out what is illusion and what is reality.


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## oz in SC V2.0 (Dec 19, 2008)

It appears the FBI undercover agent was the one who built the bombs...


> The agent, who also had built explosives under Stone's direction, accompanied Stone and others who intended to attend the Feb. 6 meeting of militias before their road trip was stymied by rough winter weather, Waterstreet said. As Stone read his speech to passengers in a van, the agent recorded him, Waterstreet said.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125280608

Hmmm,I imagine this case will fall apart like most fedgov. cases do,long after the people of this nation have forgotten about it all...but have demanded more controls over their lives by big brother.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

gideonprime said:


> That's why they should legalize pot. You get a happy hungry suggestable public. Who could ask for more Just kiddin!


Who needs pot when there are antidepressants in most of the nation's water supplies.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

Didn't get a chance to talk to my bailif friend. But I did read in the paper the guy had over 13,000 rounds of ammo, including some that could be shot for 2 miles! If he wasn't prepping for something, I don't know what.


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## oz in SC V2.0 (Dec 19, 2008)

If you read a box of ammo,it often states it is dangerous for x number of miles...which is stupid but still.

As to having 13k in ammo,for some people into firearms,that is a weekend shoot.

I have seen people who ordered ammo by the pallet...


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

And how Nickiel can you 'hang' the guy . .or a any 'guy' for having a stash of ammo. . . ?!?! 

If truth were to be known many folks here on HT will have that much.
(not myself)
But only the keyboard cowboys will brag about what ever they have.
The rest will quietly go about their dayly lives.

Its the XX number of rounds and "the 2 miles" stuff that the feds want to feed out to the media......to scare Joe Public..........into thinking

. . ."I need more Fed police state protection......... ""


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

I'm not 'hanging' the guy. All I said was what the paper said. And he was prepping for something, what, thats for the Fed's to figure out.


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## oz in SC V2.0 (Dec 19, 2008)

Some people think the idea of having more than a few days food is 'crazy',I don't and you don't but some do.

I think the same with ammo.
It actually is a pretty good investment,milsurp ammo *was* cheap as dirt a few years back,now it has tripled in price.


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## adenblue (Apr 12, 2008)

If you can believe wikipedia the longest range ever recorded for a sniper kill is 1.51 miles. I believe I remember reading about that in the news and what a big deal it was, how hard it was to accomplish, etc.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

oz in SC V2.0 said:


> Quite interesting who HERE has about tried and convicted these guys(have no idea who they are,have been without news since Monday) but the same person believed Muslims captured in Charleston SC were innocent...
> 
> Hmmm,of course there IS a different guy in the WH now and THAT makes a lot of difference to some people...suddenly the same standards no longer apply.
> 
> ...



I have not made a statement concerning the militia members guilt or innocence as yet , only commented on the constitutionality of the arrest.
You see in this case as with the case of the students in SC in this great nation we are all presumed innocent until proven guilty. Of course theres just as much evidence viewable to the public in this case now as was in the sc case after the trial. Basically the same in fact , conspiracy comments made on line , directions in making explosives, and even more ----ing in this case a Plan to murder LEOs.
Since the student in SC were muslim Your self and other were cheering the FBI and LEOs for their swift action, because these wannabe rambos claim to be Christian suddenly the FBI and LEOs are evil .
Why not just come out and say you think they should attack the government as long as they are Christian conservatives of course


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Jim-mi said:


> And how Nickiel can you 'hang' the guy . .or a any 'guy' for having a stash of ammo. . . ?!?!
> 
> If truth were to be known many folks here on HT will have that much.
> (not myself)
> ...


I never saw anyone ask for more police protection. It looked like they had an ample supply already.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R34mhUze7kc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R34mhUze7kc[/ame]

Detroit FBI agent in charge


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I've already had a discussion last night about attacking each other, and brining up posts from GC or other forums. Don't do it.

I said at the beginning of this thread that it was watched more than most, and was on thin ice to begin with.

Since this is deteriorating, I'm closing it with this post.


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