# Mountian Lion kills biker.



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

A lion killed one biker and injured another in Washington a few days ago. When you stop hunting you move down a few notches on the food chain. Lions who have never been hunted view humans as prey.

Muleskinner2


----------



## ridgerunner1965 (Apr 13, 2013)

I would have to agree with you. when a animal does not see humans as a threat, a human is just another big chunk of tasty meat.
especially since we are known to taste like pork.

I would have to say tho if I was a lion I wouldn't go after mountain bikers. they mite tend to be tuff and stringy.


----------



## basecamp2000 (May 8, 2018)

ridgerunner1965 said:


> I would have to say tho if I was a lion I wouldn't go after mountain bikers. they mite tend to be tuff and stringy.


I used to hunt cats while working on ranches in Colorado when they became problematic. A friend had some lion dogs, and when calves or lambs were at stake, we'd go after them. Same for coyotes and wolves.









*Oooooh, I tot I taw a mountain biker !! 
Yum, I LOVE chewy mountain bikers !*​


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Mountain lions very rarely attack humans unless ill or injured.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Mountain lions very rarely attack humans unless ill or injured.


That doesn't help the biker very much.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Mountain lions very rarely attack humans in states that allow mountain lion hunting with hounds. Hooray for HSUS funded referendums, that biker should be proud to be such a vital part of nature.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Mountain lions very rarely attack humans unless ill or injured.


Sorry but the only ones who think people are special, are people. Every thing else views us as a threat or food. That Disney BS about ill or injured is a fairytail.

Muleskinner2


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> Sorry but the only ones who think people are special, are people. Every thing else views us as a threat or food. That Disney BS about ill or injured is a fairytail.
> 
> Muleskinner2


I disagree. I live in mountain lion country. It is not a Disney fantasy in my back yard.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

I live in lion country as well. One morning last winter I went out early to feed the horses, found a set of fresh tracks between the house and where my dogs are tied. That lion was either lost or just shopping, but he wasn't scared of me or the dogs.

Muleskinner2


----------



## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

painterswife said:


> I disagree. I live in mountain lion country. It is not a Disney fantasy in my back yard.



So, you're wrong


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> I live in lion country as well. One morning last winter I went out early to feed the horses, found a set of fresh tracks between the house and where my dogs are tied. That lion was either lost or just shopping, but he wasn't scared of me or the dogs.
> 
> Muleskinner2


How can you know he was not scared of you from just seeing tracks? Sorry that explanation does not cut it. At least one study shows mountain lions running from human voices. 

We have personal experience with a mountain lion attack right here on our property with feet of our front door


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> I disagree. I live in mountain lion country.


Most of the US is "mountain lion country".


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> At least one study shows mountain lions running from human voices.


Lots of animals avoid contact until they want to make it on their own terms.

I bet you can find some "study" that tells you bears are deathly afraid of people.
(Just ignore the ones that knock on Cabin Fever's door.)


----------



## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

painterswife said:


> Mountain lions very rarely attack humans unless ill or injured.



I didn’t realize the biker was ill or injured. Seth


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> I found the definition *for those that don't seem to understand*


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke
"A joke is a display of humour in which words are used within a specific and well-defined narrative structure to make people laugh and is not meant to be taken seriously."


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Fewer than 100 cougar attacks of humans since 1890. Very rare.

They are also reporting that the cougar was emaciated and around 40 to 50 pounds underweight.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke
> "A joke is a display of humour in which words are used within a specific and well-defined narrative structure to make people laugh and is not meant to be taken seriously."


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

painterswife said:


> Fewer than 100 cougar attacks of humans since 1890. Very rare.
> 
> They are also reporting that the cougar was emaciated and around 40 to 50 pounds underweight.


The cougar that attacked your dog was hurt and very underweight wasn't it?


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

We have lions around here, but not allowed to shoot them.


----------



## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Most of the US is "mountain lion country".



You are also wrong


----------



## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> The cougar that attacked your dog was hurt and very underweight wasn't it?



and you have no clue about lions


----------



## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Lots of animals avoid contact until they want to make it on their own terms.
> 
> I bet you can find some "study" that tells you bears are deathly afraid of people.
> (Just ignore the ones that knock on Cabin Fever's door.)



If Cabin went outside and yelled those bear would leave because believe it or not, bears are scared of humans just as lions are


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> The cougar that attacked your dog was hurt and very underweight wasn't it?


Yes, it had a leg hold trap on one front paw. It was unable to hunt or climb. It was starving. That is what lead to it attacking and dragging the dog under the building. Even when my husband was right there. My husband hit him with his thermos and he dropped Sienna the first time but she was terrified and disoriented and he was able to grab her again and pull her under the building. My husband crawled under after them and actually pulled his claws off of her and rescued her. Not a good memory. I still shudder when I think what could have happened.

He did not go after the horses who were within 25 feet. Our friend and outfitter came over right away with his dogs and ran him out from under the building and they shot him. It was not a fun few hours for anyone.

Cougars are just a fact of life here. We are bordered and surrounded by national forest. They are seen every so often in the early morning or dusk travelling up from the river past the couple of homes here. Our friend also tracked and ran them across our property quite often.


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

oneraddad said:


> and you have no clue about lions


I really don't know anything about them . Just curious as to what animal kills a 125 pound doe and covers it with dirt and leaves about three inches?


----------



## Prismseed (Sep 14, 2009)

oneraddad said:


> If Cabin went outside and yelled those bear would leave because believe it or not, bears are scared of humans just as lions are


I've heard tell mother bears can be very aggressive when with cubs.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

oneraddad said:


> and you have no clue about lions


Absolutely true, I have never even implied that I know anything about mountain lions.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

ridgerunner1965 said:


> I would have to say tho if I was a lion I wouldn't go after mountain bikers. they mite tend to be tuff and stringy.


 He didn’t have to go after them they self delivered.......


----------



## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

The lion in question was 100lbs and 3 years old, heres a 4 year old that weighs 120lbs so they are comparable. I shot him from 7 feet away and it never tried to attack me. Most lion attacks on humans occur when the lion is waiting for a deer to come past a trail when a jogger or mountain bike zoom buy and the lion attacks thinking its a deer.


----------



## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

sounds like the Lion ate killed the one that he thought tasted like "CHICKEN"


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Mountain Lions seldom kill a human, that does not mean they are afraid of them. They often follow and watch hikers, campers and even hunters. They drink from the same water tank that my horses do, one hundred yards from the house. Sometimes scent marking the corner posts of the corral. We live together here.

I don't have hounds any more, but I used to hunt lions for ranchers who were loosing cattle. I have seen a lion stand off five mounted cowboys guarding a freshly killed calf. That calf weighted about five hundred pounds. The lion had killed the calf in the open then drug the body about thirty yards into the brush. I estimated the lion weighed one hundred pounds. Nobody in the group had a gun. One of the cowboys, a vaquero from the Sierra Madre in Mexico chased the lion off by throwing rocks at it. The lion did not leave, but stayed back in the brush snarling and hissing at them.

Some people claim that a lion can tell if you are armed or not. I don't know if this is true, I have never set down and talked to a lion. I have ridden up on lions in the brush, had them stare at me then slowly walk away. I have known people who have spent their whole life in lion country and never seen one.

I like lions, they just want to go about their business and be left alone. They don't know the difference between wild game and livestock. If you were a lion out hunting for your dinner, would you jump that tough old mule deer buck, or that fat calf? They are not endangered, they are thriving. There are probably more lions now than there have ever been.

Muleskinner2


----------



## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)




----------



## melli (May 7, 2016)

Have to say, this cougar killing a human, will not earn them any brownie points. Been a long while in WA, that a cougar (what we call them up here) has chowed down and killed a human. We had one in our hood last year (several confirmed sightings), but haven't seen it around, as of late. Too many dogs in hood I suspect. Cougars are sneaky buggers. I've only seen one, checking me out while I walked down a mountain road in Alberta. It followed me from a distance. I think it knew I was watching it. Once their cover is blown, it seems to me they are less likely to attack. Of course, if they are emaciated (hungry), all bets are off. 
Folks are more nervous about a cougar than a bear. Rather ironic, since bears do most of the human killing around here. I tend to agree, as bears are not very stealthy. I hear them bashing through the bush quite often. And they are easy to see. 
Without cougars, the deer population would explode. We have enough deer as it is. One of the things we have to put up with, I suppose, living in areas with plenty of game. Now, we have a wolf pack in our hood (made the news because it harassed a person walking their dogs). 
It would be nice not having to worry about be being 'bear aware' or 'cougar aware' when hiking in the mountains, but it seems we have this notion we can co-exist (what does that really mean?). A bit of a lottery to me. I avoid solo jaunts in mountains or forested paths out my back door (especially dawn or dusk), or if I do, it is on a dirt bike, one that makes lots of noise, and has a good horn...lol. A bear popped out of the bush while I was dirt biking in hills two summers ago...I would have run right into him, had he not turned tail and bolted. I had to slow down or I'd catch up to him...seems he found the old forestry road more to his liking. Took him a bit to figure out he could avoid the noisy machine with a human on it, by veering back into bush. I was thinking of stopping and turning around, but I was a bit discombobulated by almost running into a bear...by the time I collected myself, he was gone.


----------



## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Lots of animals avoid contact until they want to make it on their own terms.
> 
> I bet you can find some "study" that tells you bears are deathly afraid of people.
> (Just ignore the ones that knock on Cabin Fever's door.)


Just don't throw any fish under your cabin.  Bears love fish and will tear boards off a cabin to try and get under the cabin for the fish.


----------



## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Sure sounds like another good reason to be armed.


----------



## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

muleskinner2 said:


> A lion killed one biker and injured another in Washington a few days ago. When you stop hunting you move down a few notches on the food chain. Lions who have never been hunted view humans as prey.
> 
> Muleskinner2


I have lions on my back 40. It is like a jungle in that area with deer trails in and out. All the animal/s use the trails. I always carry a gun in that area and make a bit of noise to let all know I am making a visit. My main creek runs in the middle of that area and most of the animals use the creek. Most of the animals hide except the deer and some other small animals that are used to me passing. The lions take a deer most winters. Interesting is they strip all the hair off the deer where they kill it before dragging it back to their den.


----------



## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

I thought mountain biking was supposed to be healthy for you?


----------



## dyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

I've seen bobcats go after grown white tail deer. I have zero doubt that while a mountain lion might be less likely to go after an adult human than it would be a human child that even a grown female would be easily be considered prey and many men as well.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

dyrne said:


> I've seen bobcats go after grown white tail deer. I have zero doubt that while a mountain lion might be less likely to go after an adult human than it would be a human child that even a grown female would be easily be considered prey and many men as well.


Mountain Lions routinely kill Elk and cattle, killing a grown human would be no harder for a lion than swatting a fly.

Muleskinner2


----------



## TroyT (Jun 24, 2008)

oneraddad said:


> Most lion attacks on humans occur when the lion is waiting for a deer to come past a trail when a jogger or mountain bike zoom buy and the lion attacks thinking its a deer.


Perhaps, but not in this case. The bikers had multiple encounters with the cougar during their ride going as far as using their bikes as defensive weapons. The cougar was also approximate 40 -50 lbs underweight for his age in comparison with typical cougars of the area .


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

gerold said:


> Just don't throw any fish under your cabin.  Bears love fish and will tear boards off a cabin to try and get under the cabin for the fish.


 Lol ok fess up and tell us the story.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

oneraddad said:


> Then stay in the gun, abortion, shopping and date lunch threads


If people only posted in the threads they were experts in, it'd be pretty slow around here.
We all have our opinions, and she admitted she doesn't know about lions, but like everybody, she has an opinion, and that's ok.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

oneraddad said:


> Don't you have a gun thread to go post in ?


You smoking the wrong doobie today?


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> View attachment 66115


It's ok if you don't get it.



oneraddad said:


> You are also wrong


Nope. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cougar



> Its range, *from the Canadian Yukon to the southern Andes of South America,* is the most widespread of any large wild terrestrial mammal in the Western Hemisphere.[3]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cougar_range_map_2010.png


----------



## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> *Most of the US *is "mountain lion country".


13 western states and Florida is not most of the United States


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Tonight's report on CBS was this was a 3-4 year old male cougar, _extremely emaciated.



painterswife said:



Fewer than 100 cougar attacks of humans since 1890. Very rare.

They are also reporting that the cougar was emaciated and around 40 to 50 pounds underweight.

Click to expand...

_
Sorry, I missed your post earlier, just wanted to touch on that fact since a few weren't convinced that it was highly unusual for them to attack humans unless they were desperate (sick, hungry or injured).
Naturally if one was a literal "babe in the woods" they might make an exception.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

oneraddad said:


> 13 western states and Florida is not most of the United States


Evidently you're having trouble comprehending the data.
It's not unexpected.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

melli said:


> Have to say, this cougar killing a human, will not earn them any brownie points. Been a long while in WA, that a cougar (what we call them up here) has chowed down and killed a human. We had one in our hood last year (several confirmed sightings), but haven't seen it around, as of late. Too many dogs in hood I suspect. Cougars are sneaky buggers. I've only seen one, checking me out while I walked down a mountain road in Alberta. It followed me from a distance. I think it knew I was watching it. Once their cover is blown, it seems to me they are less likely to attack. Of course, if they are emaciated (hungry), all bets are off.
> Folks are more nervous about a cougar than a bear. Rather ironic, since bears do most of the human killing around here. I tend to agree, as bears are not very stealthy. I hear them bashing through the bush quite often. And they are easy to see.
> Without cougars, the deer population would explode. We have enough deer as it is. One of the things we have to put up with, I suppose, living in areas with plenty of game. Now, we have a wolf pack in our hood (made the news because it harassed a person walking their dogs).
> It would be nice not having to worry about be being 'bear aware' or 'cougar aware' when hiking in the mountains, but it seems we have this notion we can co-exist (what does that really mean?). A bit of a lottery to me. I avoid solo jaunts in mountains or forested paths out my back door (especially dawn or dusk), or if I do, it is on a dirt bike, one that makes lots of noise, and has a good horn...lol. A bear popped out of the bush while I was dirt biking in hills two summers ago...I would have run right into him, had he not turned tail and bolted. I had to slow down or I'd catch up to him...seems he found the old forestry road more to his liking. Took him a bit to figure out he could avoid the noisy machine with a human on it, by veering back into bush. I was thinking of stopping and turning around, but I was a bit discombobulated by almost running into a bear...by the time I collected myself, he was gone.


Bear can be very stealthy, when they stalk you they can walk through a pile of dead leaves and dry sticks without making a sound. I know because I have called up over a dozen with predator calls through the years. Have had them within feet. Great fun. Turning over rocks looking for grubs, yes, they are noisy, but if they don't want to be heard you won't hear them. Big padded foot, good for sneaking. And of course, when the wind shifts and a bear that thought you were an injured deer fawn suddenly gets a whiff of human scent, they are quite noisy while leaving the country, prone to breaking down small trees that get in their way. 

Have actually had a bear make physical contact, he bailed a tree that the dogs had him up, and I happened to be standing in the only available path through the rocks. It was a fun ride, but a short one. Bear knocking you down and trampling you is not so bad. Having a pack of bear hounds follow a trail that happens to be laid on your body is much worse. Those darn stragglers, every time you stand up here comes another one. My advice to anyone that finds themselves in that situation is to just stay down until all the dogs get the trail sorted out. Assume fetal position with fingers in ears.


----------



## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol ok fess up and tell us the story.


Ok story. Was working in Yellowstone when a young man as a boat fishing guide. Our nurse went out with one of our older guides and he said she wouldn't date him again. So he talked one of his young friends to toss a couple fish under her cabin at night. She woke up and was a bit scare as the cabin was moving. He didn't get fired but it was a lesson to the rest of us not to do stupid things like that. When you are young older guys could talk some into doing crazy stuff.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> We have personal experience with a mountain lion attack right here on our property with feet of our front door


Evidently that one wasn't afraid enough of humans to stay away.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

oneraddad said:


> If Cabin went outside and yelled those bear would leave because believe it or not, bears are scared of humans just as lions are


That has nothing to do with what I said.
But again it comes as no surprise.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Prismseed said:


> I've heard tell mother bears can be very aggressive when with cubs.


I heard that
Better to encounter a fool in his folly 
Than a bear robbed of her cubs


----------



## survival49 (May 6, 2018)

Every predator living looks at a living thing as prey or predator. It’s a fight or flee 
world in the wild.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

survival49 said:


> Every predator living looks at a living thing as prey or predator. It’s a fight or flee
> world in the wild.


True. Mountain lions rarely look on humans as prey. Illness or injury or extreme hunger can change that. That is why there have been less than 100 attacks on humans in over 100 years.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Except for trophy animals harvested in the prime of their life, most lions will experience illness, injury, or extreme hunger at some point in their lives. Most will experience it multiple times. One of the biggest causes of human conflict with bears or lions is young that are on their own for the first time. Having mom around to help keep the belly from growling goes a long way toward staying out of questionable situations near human habitation. Too many generations of these young freeloaders, that don't learn manners from people that have a clue about what it means to live around wild animals, and you have an altered population of dependent animals, that get way too cheeky with humans.


----------



## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Yesterday on my mountain, if I didn't have to rely on my 79 year old buddy with hounds I'd be out right now tracking

http://mynews4.com/news/local/wildlife-officials-warn-somersett-residents-of-mountain-lion-sightings


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

oneraddad said:


> 13 western states and Florida is not most of the United States


Is that their range or yours ?
I’ve never seen one there but I have encountered them in Illinois (one got hit on the interstate here) the Carolinas, Tennessee ,the Virginia’s and Pennsylvania. 
I don’t think that’s their range more it’s my range.


----------



## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

I have seen one in North Central Texas. Lake Whitney to be precise. Also had one spotted stealing dogs out of yards about 5 miles from me. Been spotted and heard for years.


----------



## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

We used to live in BC so were well aware of cougars. Mountain lions have just started to move into the Yukon - climate change makes it more inviting. We do have about 7000 grizzlies. No one here goes anywhere (hiking, walking the dog, riding, fishing, camping etc) without bear spray or if into the wilderness, guns. A simple precaution because you can run into animals anywhere here - including just on the trail behind our house or in the neighbours driveway because they do not know the rules about storing garbage. 

The death of this man is a very sad tragedy. If the cougar was emaciated (probably ill) then it was desperate. Apparently the last cougar attack death in that area was 94 years ago. More likely to be killed by your spouse than a cougar. A list of the cougar attacks leading to death is available on line and most attacks show that cougars generally attack children (or those defending children) so attacking an adult (especially a large adult or more than one) is definitely not usual.


----------



## GK7 (May 22, 2018)

farmrbrown said:


> Tonight's report on CBS was this was a 3-4 year old male cougar, _extremely emaciated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Obviously there was something wrong with this cat and it was acting out of the ordinary.
Lesson learned here? Don't run from an attacking cat. Someone else said elsewhere, they knew of a Colorado biker who was able to fend off a cat by holding UP his bike in front of him, and charging the cat making loud noises. The cat fled.
But this cat - maybe distemper? I'm sure the autopsy will tell more.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

It doesn't have to be distemper. It is quite common for young cats around two years old to be kicked out of mother's care prior to her having a new litter. They either learn to hunt and find a homerange not occupied, or they starve, or get killed. Not uncommon for young lions to be in very poor condition before they get it together and figure out how to capitalize on deer fawns and baby rabbits.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

GK7 said:


> Obviously there was something wrong with this cat and it was acting out of the ordinary.
> Lesson learned here? Don't run from an attacking cat. Someone else said elsewhere, they knew of a Colorado biker who was able to fend off a cat by holding UP his bike in front of him, and charging the cat making loud noises. The cat fled.
> But this cat - maybe distemper? I'm sure the autopsy will tell more.


Yeah, it's not always easy to know exactly what to do. In this case the bikers were not alone - always use the buddy system.
For most predators, running is only going to invite a chase and I don't know the details of how the one that was killed ended up running into the woods - whether he was knocked off his bike and too far behind his buddy or what.
I know *I* can't out climb a cougar or bear up a tree to escape...........but if I was scared enough I might set a world record for humans that day.


----------



## red1 (Jun 19, 2007)

Authority's are investigating the carcass to see if there are any abnormalities that
didn't allow the lion to hunt its natural prey. People are not its natural prey.
Dogs are the biggest threat to me when I'm out biking country roads.


----------



## basecamp2000 (May 8, 2018)

Ooooohhh !

I tot I taw a puddy-tat ! - - - - *I DID tee a puddy-tat !!! *










Nice puddy !! -- Hungry ? Yes ??


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

basecamp2000 said:


> Nice puddy !! -- Hungry ? Yes ??


That cat looks very healthy and certainly isn't afraid of being near humans.


----------



## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

painterswife said:


> Mountain lions very rarely attack humans unless ill or injured.





muleskinner2 said:


> Sorry but the only ones who think people are special, are people. Every thing else views us as a threat or food. That Disney BS about ill or injured is a fairytail.
> 
> Muleskinner2





painterswife said:


> I disagree. I live in mountain lion country. It is not a Disney fantasy in my back yard.


Humans very rarely even encounter mountain lions, that much is true. Attacks are rare, that much is true. It is not true that most lions who attack are ill or injured. The truth is, most lions who attack were stalking their pray. There are very few chance encounters with Mountain Lions. Think about what you're talking about...a predator that relies on stealth.

Hunting needs to be very limited, but some hunting of apex predators is really not that bad of a thing. Before humans landscaped the planet, nature sorted out overpopulation via mass starvation and epidemics fueled by malnutrition. Now that we have landscaped and gridlocked the natural environment, it's on us to practice good hunting...or watch mass die offs happen in our backyards...which could effect us in ways we really don't want. Or deal with another effect we don't want, like mountain lions moving into suburbs because they've been pressed off of their turf by a bigger, badder lion. That's how this happens to your dog.

Don't worry, his collar saves him.


----------



## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

wiscto said:


> Humans very rarely even encounter mountain lions, that much is true. Attacks are rare, that much is true. It is not true that most lions who attack are ill or injured. The truth is, most lions who attack were stalking their pray. There are very few chance encounters with Mountain Lions. Think about what you're talking about...a predator that relies on stealth.
> 
> Hunting needs to be very limited, but some hunting of apex predators is really not that bad of a thing. Before humans landscaped the planet, nature sorted out overpopulation via mass starvation and epidemics fueled by malnutrition. Now that we have landscaped and gridlocked the natural environment, it's on us to practice good hunting...or watch mass die offs happen in our backyards...which could effect us in ways we really don't want. Or deal with another effect we don't want, like mountain lions moving into suburbs because they've been pressed off of their turf by a bigger, badder lion. That's how this happens to your dog.
> 
> Don't worry, his collar saves him.



^^^^^^This is some really good information


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> I disagree. I live in mountain lion country. It is not a Disney fantasy in my back yard.


Sometimes I cheer for the mountain lion.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> Sometimes I cheer for the mountain lion.


Are you cheering that the lion gets someone in particular?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Are you cheering that the lion gets someone in particular?


I'd love to see a picture of a mountain lion from your area. Get a close up and try to make him snarl.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wiscto said:


> Humans very rarely even encounter mountain lions, that much is true. Attacks are rare, that much is true. It is not true that most lions who attack are ill or injured. The truth is, most lions who attack were stalking their pray. There are very few chance encounters with Mountain Lions. Think about what you're talking about...a predator that relies on stealth.
> 
> Hunting needs to be very limited, but some hunting of apex predators is really not that bad of a thing. Before humans landscaped the planet, nature sorted out overpopulation via mass starvation and epidemics fueled by malnutrition. Now that we have landscaped and gridlocked the natural environment, it's on us to practice good hunting...or watch mass die offs happen in our backyards...which could effect us in ways we really don't want. Or deal with another effect we don't want, like mountain lions moving into suburbs because they've been pressed off of their turf by a bigger, badder lion. That's how this happens to your dog.
> 
> Don't worry, his collar saves him.



I have no problem with some hunting of mountain lions. I don't cheer it but I understand the need. Controlled numbers allow them to be healthy and have a good population of feed animals. The truth is that if they have feed they will rarely go after humans. History illustrates this quite well. Cougars do stalk humans, they just seldom attack them because there is easier prey to be had. Perspective is important when living in national forest. 

Cougar in my are often seen in my neighbor hood. I have had them on my property often. As Oneraddad has said and demonstrated a few times, the sound of one is unmistakable. They are sighted coming up from the river going back up the mountain quite often. They have been tracked over my property several times. I am not in the suburbs. Our property borders national forest and is only reachable by a national forest road.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Seems people might should at least try to be a bit better prepared.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

wiscto said:


> Humans very rarely even encounter mountain lions, that much is true. Attacks are rare, that much is true. It is not true that most lions who attack are ill or injured. The truth is, most lions who attack were stalking their pray. There are very few chance encounters with Mountain Lions. Think about what you're talking about...a predator that relies on stealth.
> 
> Hunting needs to be very limited, but some hunting of apex predators is really not that bad of a thing. Before humans landscaped the planet, nature sorted out overpopulation via mass starvation and epidemics fueled by malnutrition. Now that we have landscaped and gridlocked the natural environment, it's on us to practice good hunting...or watch mass die offs happen in our backyards...which could effect us in ways we really don't want. Or deal with another effect we don't want, like mountain lions moving into suburbs because they've been pressed off of their turf by a bigger, badder lion. That's how this happens to your dog.
> 
> Don't worry, his collar saves him.


That Doberman was on a chain and it wasn't a long one. There are other details not known but he looked kinda slow too.
Regardless a full grown cougar is a formidable foe for man or beast, but I disagree that when they are living in close proximity to humans ( and in some places they ARE) that they won't avoid us when possible. They are like jaguars and leopards in the way they hunt near humans, but rarely hunt humans.


----------



## basecamp2000 (May 8, 2018)

HDRider said:


> I'd love to see a picture of a mountain lion from your area. Get a close up and try to make him snarl.


Make a nice biker's cat, talk about braggin' rights...
They purr too 









Must need a helluva big catbox !!


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

basecamp2000 said:


> Make a nice biker's cat, talk about braggin' rights...
> They purr too
> 
> 
> ...


He could run along beside me.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

National Park Rangers do everything they can to prevent attacks, but stupid is still free is legal.
Campgrounds such as Yellowstone, Yosemite, Smoky Mountains etc have rules in place. Don't approach wild animals, don't feed them, don't leave your campground food out. I've seen people ticketed by rangers for leaving dinner on the picnic table overnight. They don't seem to understand their carelessness may cost the life of a wild animal that has to be put down.
The more the population expands and grows, the less habitat a mountain lion, cougar, bear, etc have.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> He could run along beside me.


I think he at least deserves a side-car, a scarf and some cool shades.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

GTX63 said:


> National Park Rangers do everything they can to prevent attacks, but stupid is still free is legal.
> Campgrounds such as Yellowstone, Yosemite, Smoky Mountains etc have rules in place. Don't approach wild animals, don't feed them, don't leave your campground food out. I've seen people ticketed by rangers for leaving dinner on the picnic table overnight. They don't seem to understand their carelessness may cost the life of a wild animal that has to be put down.
> The more the population expands and grows, the less habitat a mountain lion, cougar, bear, etc have.


Don't leave your pik-a-nik baskets laying around.


----------



## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

I have an Anatolian Shepherd (rescue) so needed to read up on the breed because I had limited knowledge of their history . These are the dogs used in Africa to save the cheetahs. They do so by being introduced into the herds of sheep, goats and cattle. They are the deterrent and are so successful that the farmers no longer need to kill the cheetahs. 

They have a low prey drive which means that they prefer just to chase off the threat and not run after them to kill them thus leaving the heard unprotected. But they are huge, strong and fast and will fight to the death to protect their herds. They take on lions as well as cheetahs and in Europe bears and wolves. In BC ranchers use them and they will take on cougars.

I just read that they are being used in Yellowstone to protect the tourists. 

https://www.dailysabah.com/life/201...tect-wildlife-in-us-yellowstone-national-park


----------



## basecamp2000 (May 8, 2018)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I think he at least deserves a side-car, a scarf and some cool shades.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> How can you know he was not scared of you from just seeing tracks? Sorry that explanation does not cut it. At least one study shows mountain lions running from human voices.
> 
> We have personal experience with a mountain lion attack right here on our property with feet of our front door


Sorry just saw this.

The dogs are tied fifty feet from the house, the lion passed between the house and the dogs. Now, I have no idea what that means in Disney Land, but here in the real world it means the lion was not afraid of either one.

Muleskinner2


----------



## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

oneraddad said:


> ^^^^^^This is some really good information


Was it on your property?


----------



## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

farmrbrown said:


> That Doberman was on a chain and it wasn't a long one. There are other details not known but he looked kinda slow too.
> Regardless a full grown cougar is a formidable foe for man or beast, but I disagree that when they are living in close proximity to humans ( and in some places they ARE) that they won't avoid us when possible. They are like jaguars and leopards in the way they hunt near humans, but rarely hunt humans.


I did say rarely. But rarely isn't never. It's always possible to avoid us... And yet outright attacks on humans do occasionally happen. What does that tell you? It tells you that when environment pressures are just right, a cat will go after what it thinks is its best opportunity in days. 

Not sure what you're trying to say about the doberman... I'm sure if it wasn't on a lead it might have tried a more mobile, evasive fighting style, but we're talking about a doberman. How about an overweight golden retriever? How about a corgi?


----------



## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

wiscto said:


> Was it on your property?


Yes, I found the tracks and followed them till he walked under the gate and onto the main trial. Then called my buddy with the hounds and meet him where I found these drag marks. He let the dogs go and they had it trapped in a culvert within minutes.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

wiscto said:


> I did say rarely. But rarely isn't never. It's always possible to avoid us... And yet outright attacks on humans do occasionally happen. What does that tell you? It tells you that when environment pressures are just right, a cat will go after what it thinks is its best opportunity in days.


That's true.
In normal situations an apex predator will steer clear of another one. We CAN be a meal for some, but they would rather have an easy snack, lol.


> Not sure what you're trying to say about the doberman... I'm sure if it wasn't on a lead it might have tried a more mobile, evasive fighting style, but we're talking about a doberman. How about an overweight golden retriever? How about a corgi?


That was part of it and the fact it couldn't even get away. I think the cat knew that and planned that attack well.

Dogs and cats are usually equally matched, except for the largest cats that is. Even then the pack of canines gains the advantage over a single large cat.
But when either one is on a chain, he's dead meat.

A few posts ago someone mentioned their Anatolian and the Park Service program being given some to use as guard dogs for Yellowstone.
That got me curious about my boy, a Dogo/Anatolian mix.
I was reading how they attack wolves in their native country and realized what I thought was "play" for him was instinctive behavior.
He IS playing with ME but that technique is all breeding.
I tease my wife about him being a "mama's boy" but he's leaving adolescence and becoming an adult with more guarding activity.
Even with his sweet temperament, if it came to it, I wouldn't bet on him being someone's meal.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Hunting is the best tool to manage lion populations, they can actually increase as a result of hunting, if only trophy animals are harvested (adult males that stake out huge ranges and kill lots of young males and kittens). The ones that aren't adult males get chased up a tree and have a few pictures snapped of them, and as a result associate humans and dogs with unpleasantness, but are not significantly harmed in the process. Hunting with hounds is often a catch and release form of hunting, where animals are not always harvested. Many people in mountain lion country where such practices are allowed operate as guides, treeing the cats for a client to harvest an adult male as a trophy, or many times even for people that just want to see a mountain lion or take pictures. People operating in such a manner have the ultimate respect for the animals, seeing them in economic terms, which is the only thing that really means much from a wildlife management standpoint. Killing a female or a kitten could cost them money in the long run, so they avoid it at all costs. Some states, fueled by rabid animal activism, have decided to eliminate sport hunting, or hound hunting. They are still hunted and with hounds in most of these states, just by government goons who get paid the same for gunning down females and their kittens as managing a resource. Instead of teaching all lions to respect humans, they just wait for a problem which inevitably occur, and go in and randomly kill a few cougars in the area a conflict occurs, always backing it up with some wild claim about "biologists tested the animal" "DNA analysis is being conducted" or some such cockamamie story designed to appease the public. You will never once hear them say, "oops, this one appeared to be healthy, and was actually a different lion than the one involved in an incident", which would lend credibility to their wild stories. Matters not, though, because it's not likely that anyone could or would follow up with these stories, the issue drops when the "authorities" are doing "testing".


----------



## survival49 (May 6, 2018)

How about we agree that they are wild cat capable of killing a man, woman, or child oh or a dog and non of us want to coming out of its back end for any reason. Bears either.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

wiscto said:


> I did say rarely. But rarely isn't never. It's always possible to avoid us... And yet outright attacks on humans do occasionally happen. What does that tell you? It tells you that when environment pressures are just right, a cat will go after what it thinks is its best opportunity in days.
> 
> Not sure what you're trying to say about the doberman... I'm sure if it wasn't on a lead it might have tried a more mobile, evasive fighting style, but we're talking about a doberman. How about an overweight golden retriever? How about a corgi?


I finally found that link I was reading about anatolians.

https://scialert.net/fulltextmobile/?doi=ajava.2012.403.411



> The kangal dog is a speedy runs into a wolf and uses its shoulders and chest to knock it off balance sideways. Sometimes, the back of a wolf is broken when the kangal knocks it. During the attack the kangal dog generally recovers firstly and taking the wolf by the throat kills it. The wolf may wound the kangal dog during this fight. While it fights for its life wolf may bite or scratch the most sensitive parts of the kangal dog, the throat, genital organs or abdomen and ears if not cropped. If the wolf recovers first from the initial attack, it will prefer to run away. Kangal dogs used in guarding goat and sheep flocks in Turkey are protected from wolf bites using by collars studded with long spikes.


This is my 'little boy'.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

The thing to remember about the livestock guarding dogs, is that most of them come from countries where wolves and bears have been either extinct , or very scarce, for centuries. In many cases, the ones coming from the "northern middle east" only encountered wolves that were little bigger than a coyote anyway. In the case of the Kangal, they are pretty much used in the same way that pit bulls were historically used here. Historically, the true test of any livestock guarding breed was to pit it against another livestock guarding breed. As dogs were the main flock predator in recent centuries, this makes sense. Mountain lion reactions to LGDs are not a good baseline of performance, seeing as how one fifty pound or less dog can easily tree a mountain lion by itself, if it is inclined to.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

barnbilder said:


> The thing to remember about the livestock guarding dogs, is that most of them come from countries where wolves and bears have been either extinct , or very scarce, for centuries. In many cases, the ones coming from the "northern middle east" only encountered wolves that were little bigger than a coyote anyway. In the case of the Kangal, they are pretty much used in the same way that pit bulls were historically used here. Historically, the true test of any livestock guarding breed was to pit it against another livestock guarding breed. As dogs were the main flock predator in recent centuries, this makes sense. Mountain lion reactions to LGDs are not a good baseline of performance, seeing as how one fifty pound or less dog can easily tree a mountain lion by itself, if it is inclined to.


This is true, guard dogs protect their flocks by bluff and noise. Only once in a thousand times will they have to fight. Lions, bears, and wolves would rather run than fight. If the large predators had ever decided to hunt humans full time, we would have never made it out of the stone age.

The Anatolian Shepherd or Kangal has been guarding flocks, and villages in Turkey for around three thousand years. Before the advent of firearms, small villages and lone shepherds were easy prey for bandits. They developed the large guard dog to protect their flocks and homes. The first guard dogs were mostly mastiff or crossed with mastiff. And they were a far cry from the tame domesticated guard dogs we have today. The mastiffs could take down a horse and rider and kill both. They were seldom fed by their masters and had to fend for themselves. When I was in Kyrgyzstan I saw guard dogs digging marmonts out of their dens.

Muleskinner2


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

None of us are as good as we used to be.
The real question is, are we _good enough_ on the day that we _need to be?_


----------



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Seth said:


> I didn’t realize the biker was ill or injured. Seth


He didn't know he was about to pine for the fiords. The lion was obviously more intuitive.


----------



## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

farmrbrown said:


> That's true.
> In normal situations an apex predator will steer clear of another one. We CAN be a meal for some, but they would rather have an easy snack, lol.
> 
> 
> ...




I have come to really admire Anatolian Shepherds. Ours will never be anyone's meal even though he is getting on in years. They are a 6000 year old breed that developed to be independent of humans as they were left to fend for themselves and guard their flocks. The qualities that make them exceptional also make them harder to control and direct. They are not pets. 

Anatolians are known for three traits - they are like well trained police officers who use the least amount of force or action to handle any situation. If a bark will do they bark but if they have to attack - well I have never seen any dog move with the speed that mine did. They have the ability to sum up a situation and make their own decision as to how to handle it - even if it goes against direction from the master. This can be a problem so intense training is necessary but they may choose to ignore you. They know their territory and protect and patrol it all the time and their loyalty to their charges is complete - to the death and they hate to leave them. A farmer in Africa had to take his Anatolian to the vet after it had seen off a lion but the dog would not get into the truck until he had loaded in half the herd. And even then the dog was twitchy the whole time until he could get back to the farm.

We have camped in many parks and often been invaded at night by animals searching for food - bears, raccoons, coyotes etc. Caused many a screaming panic with other campers. An Anatolian that considers a campground to be his territory would not let any of these anywhere near. We know several placer miners who used to have a lot of trouble with bears but after introducing Anatolians to the claims have never had repeats. 

A health study was done on this breed. Males long outlive females - by about 5 years on average. Ear problems and hip problems are the most common ailments. Liver problems are also common. Our boy just went through a terrible liver infection. We thought he would not make it. But he did and is steadily gaining back the weight he lost to get back to his normal 150 lbs. Another great quality is that they eat very little considering their size because their bodies have adjusted to be very conserving of both food and water. Ours eats 2 cup of dry food and a can of dog food meat or cup of chicken, beef etc. a day. We go through a bag of food a month and our neighbour with the Saint Bernard goes through four bags. 

Our dog is also a mama's boy. He loves, respects and obeys my husband but he absolutely adores me. And the cats - one of whom sleeps on top of him. Hates the coyote and red fox that live in the forest behind us and thankfully he was in the house when the wolf went across our property and up the road so all he could do is glare at it out the window. No cougars yet and although bears have gone on our neighbours property we have not had any sign that they have been on ours.


----------

