# Disbudding/Dehorning 'cruel'



## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

So I found this  article online when I was searching for a disbudder. I thought it was pretty ridicolous :shrug:I mean there was some validation to the dehorning, but telling me to not disbud my goat because of the "High risk of infection" I've never had a goat get an infection from a proper disbudding... in fact I have never even heard of one! 

They said kids should "learn to respect the horn" what if it is one of the kids friends who hasn't been around goats before? What if he gets his eye poked out? What happens when I get sued because of it?

I'm ok with people saying dehorning is moderately "cruel" (although I am still going to do it, cuz it needs to be done) but come on! Disbudding too! I a mean even Fiasco agrees on this....

What do you think?


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## catdance62 (Dec 7, 2008)

Many people with meat goat herds do not bother to disbud because the kids are "terminal" anyway. Most people with dairy goats do disbud because of possible injury to udders etc. 
I think there is a lot more risk of infection etc. when an adult goat is de-horned (via banding, or however). We learned to disbud our kids this year and I am glad we did. Although we did get some scurs, next year will be better.
I also think that the disbudding preference varies country to country.


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## Madfarmer (Mar 22, 2008)

Just one more crackpot opinion. Soooo, disbudding is cruel, but killing a goat and eating it ISN'T?? What hooey! As for goats needing their horns for defense, not sure whether that's blatant ignorance or abject stupidity. Horns get caught in fences, injure other goats, injure people, but are absolutely no defence against dog packs or any large predator.

Madfarmer


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## Helena (May 10, 2002)

I understand both sides of the fence here but..after having "been owed" by goats for over 30 years now..disbudding I think is necessary. Not only because of the injury we can received from the goats usually not intended, but with goats getting their heads and horns caught in fences etc. If done properly and with tetnaus given at the time of disbudding..the goats should be fine. Defending themselves against animals attacking them ?? I guess when you take an animal in to care for, that becomes your basic responsibility to make sure they are safely contained against wild animals. I understand the exceptions are out there also..but mostly we can prevent most animal injuries from wandering neighbors dogs and things like that. It is an endless discussion for both sides and you must figure out what is best for your animals and your homestead.


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## SheriM (Mar 4, 2009)

Personally, I think disbudding is the most traumatic, painful thing human beings can do to a goat. Now, having said that, there are many circumstances where you can make a very strong case for disbudding. I have a mostly meat herd, so I don't disubud, but every time I go to milk one of my wide-horned does, it's a pain in the butt to get her into the milk stand's stanchon. Just recently, someone posted a picture on another forum of a pygmy buck with horns that looked like foot long knives sticking straight up out of his head. Want that around a child? Want to trip on a kid/stump/frozen manure pile/etc. and fall on him?

"Cruel" is a loaded, judgemental term. Is disbudding painful? Yup. Is it traumatic for the kid? Yup? Is it necessary? Yup, sometimes it is. They do get over the pain and trauma remarkably quickly and if it's done properly, infection shouldn't be an issue.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I suppse that critters can learn to "respect the horn". 

The part that would worry me is when goats get their horns caught in the fences. That can be a slow and ugly death.


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## DQ (Aug 4, 2006)

there will always be people who think that any pain inflicted on an animal can't be justified. disbudding, castrating and even corrective hoof trimming etc.....can be or is painful. yet we do these things for our own safety as well as the animals and yes we do them out of convenience for us often and that is ok too. cruelty in my opinion is inflicting pain, terror or neglect on an animal for no reason other than laziness or perverted sense of entertainment. it is certainly not cruel to purposely and professionaly conduct a procedure that has clear benefits for both the animal and people involved even if it happens to be painful.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Well......all I have to do is know who wrote it. That woman and I went round and round for years when I used to be a member of her yahoo group. She has a few valid points.......but mostly, hooey!


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## TwoAcresAndAGoat (Jul 19, 2003)

OK so I had to go look of the definition of cruel

1. willfully or knowingly causing pain or distress to others.
YES for this one in others can mean nonhumans. I do not doubt that the kids are in pain during disbudding and that I am the cuase of it. Of course right after I turn them loose with their mothers or the other bottle babies they seem to have forgotten about it.

2. enjoying the pain or distress of others: the cruel spectators of the gladiatorial contests.
NO - I do not enjoy disbudding but it needs to be done. 

3. causing or marked by great pain or distress: a cruel remark; a cruel affliction.
NO I am pretty sure the goats don't mind it when I call them names like hornless wonder.

4. rigid; stern; strict; unrelentingly severe.
YES - if you are not rigid, stern, strict and unrelentingly severe with goats they can walk all over you and push your around.

So its 2 to 2.


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## DairyGoatSlave (Dec 27, 2008)

pah! disbudding is necessary! for the safety of themselves, herd mates and myself! some people.......
thats also why I bottle feed, is because i dont test enough to ensure that moms milk is safe for kid to drink unpasteurized. many people think its cruel until i explain its about safety...


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## hillbillly (Jun 28, 2009)

i like their horns.
maybe a little dangerous
but so is a dog-
no one has their dog's teeth pulled.


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

We had some 2mo old Boers dehorned for FFA customers. (had we known when kids were born they would have been disbudded)
It was ugly but the 4 legged kids did fine. I didnt fair so well during the procedure & Im not weak stomached.
Disbudding as said earlier professionally, by that I mean someone who knows how to.
Oh gee you'd think they were dying when I have to vac. Guess Im cruel.

I saw that pic of horns sticking straight up. I wouldnt want that around here but thats my preference. 
It is also my preference to leave horns on. Boers have horns that gently curve backwards & they are quite dignified.
As for children, my grandson was in the pen with me when I noticed one doe moving her head slightly in a menacing manner when he got a little too close for her comfort. Told GS to stay clear of her. 
She had done that once before when an older human kid was in the pen with me.
I have a law around here. No one goes in the goat pen without me. 

You have to have the fencing for it & you have to know the temperment of the breed and that one individual. 
The disbud or not to disbud issue has been around for awhile but its not cruel its either common sense and/or rountinely done mostly within the dairy industry.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

hillbillly said:


> i like their horns.
> maybe a little dangerous
> but so is a dog-
> no one has their dog's teeth pulled.


Well dogs don't usually accidentally bite people, or get their teeth stuck in fences either... :shrug:


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## hillbillly (Jun 28, 2009)

dogs kill more people, esp. children, than goats do.


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

Disbudding, if done correctly, cauterizes the area, which minimizes chance of infection.

I have seen two infected horn buds but both happened well after the disbudding, right before or after the healing scab cap fell off. One was on a kid I purchased, another was on a kid born here at my place this spring. Probably this was caused by the kid scratching the cap (either with a dirty hoof or rubbing on a dirty wall). One was easy to clear up with topical applications. The other one was very persistent! In addition to scrubbing and using topical treatments, I put the kid on 10 days of PenG and still didn't see a whole lot of improvement. Finally I left it alone and it seems better. She never developed a fever or seemed off in any way but every time I checked it, you could squish a good bit of pus out from under the scab. Ewwww!


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## mylala (Jun 3, 2008)

WOW...I don't believe most of you read the article at all...almost seems like a game a telephone.

She said........... "De-horning goats is just plain cruel. De-horning describes the process of cutting off horns that have already grown to significant size. Horns have an extensive blood supply running through them. Below the horns, in the skull, are large sinus cavities. Removing horns down to their base exposes the inside of the goat's head to serious infection. The very best one can hope for in such a procedure is that the goat is going to have a king-sized headache for many hours. When goats are dehorned, death from shock or infection is a definite possibility.

She gave reasons for disbudding...which seem valid.

Disbudding is not de-horning


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

I believe thats the reason we were discussing both, to differentiate between the two for anyone not familier.
And there are folks that think even disbudding is cruel.


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## Painted Pony (Dec 12, 2008)

mylala said:


> WOW...I don't believe most of you read the article at all...almost seems like a game a telephone.
> 
> She said........... "De-horning goats is just plain cruel. De-horning describes the process of cutting off horns that have already grown to significant size. Horns have an extensive blood supply running through them. Below the horns, in the skull, are large sinus cavities. Removing horns down to their base exposes the inside of the goat's head to serious infection. The very best one can hope for in such a procedure is that the goat is going to have a king-sized headache for many hours. When goats are dehorned, death from shock or infection is a definite possibility.
> 
> ...



Bravo. I read the article and the author agrees that:
1) dairy goats in milkstands 
2) goats in close quarters 
are both valid reasons to disbud. I do not see where she was writing anything crazy. I think the risks of disbudding she listed were very valid. Goats do die from the shock of the procedure. It happens. I'm not attacking anyone here but perhaps everyone should read the article for themselves before they discredit what her for what some else interperts as her points on a topic. For the record, I have dairy goats that are all disbudded.


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## Wonderland (May 26, 2009)

Well I read the article, and I have mixed opinions about it. The first two paragraphs I agree with, because the statements were true. Disbudding is a risk, but there are good reasons to do it, like she said. If you do it correctly the risks of brain damage, infection, and tetanus are greatly reduced.

The third paragraph is where I start to disagree. No matter how careful you are, and especially no matter how careful kids are, horns still pose a risk to people. Accidents do happen, no matter how much you try to respect the horns or prevent them; that's why they're called _accidents._ Also, I have seen goats who belonged to friends who had horns attacked and killed by dogs. I've also known someone who's goat was caught in fence due to horns and killed by dogs. Horns are _not_ an effective protection against predators, imo.

As for de-horning, I do not like it. I will not say it is cruel, because as someone else pointed out, cruel means that you enjoy seeing the animal in pain. But it's not something I would do.

I do not agree with the last paragraph at all, because the author says "treat your goat humanely. Do not disbud or de-horn..." I believe that it is more humane to disbud them than to put them at risk of injuring each other, getting caught in a fence, or injuring a human. Yes, disbudding is painful, but so are so many other things that you have to do to goats. It's kind of like giving human kids stitches or something. Yeah they hate it and it hurts, but it's necessary. 

That's just my opinion.


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## jBlaze (Dec 26, 2007)

I did not read the article.
I DO believe in Dis-Budding.
I do not believe in De-Horning. (and all the more reason to dis-bud! =D)


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

I *did* read the article(in fact I re-read it as I had read it several years ago). I totally disagree with the conclusions written by the author.
After personally disbudding many hundreds of kids(my kids and other owners kids), and not losing one or even having one get sick......I tend to consider it less than extremely dangerous.
I have also helped dehorn a friends goats. While it wasn't fun, they recovered nicely from surgery and if pushed to that point, I would it again if I really needed to. Disbudding is *MUCH* to be preferred.


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## Feral Nature (Feb 21, 2007)

I have one little 3 week old doeling who I did not disbud this summer because it was 105-109 most of June, during the time it needed to be done. We have already had 27 triple digit days. The poor thing was trying not to die from a heat stroke, as was I. In this case, I really did feel it was cruel, even though I have disbudded numerous, numerous kids over the years. I decided that it was just too big of a horror to heat up her head with the iron and then have her lay in the miserable heat and try to recover. I will attempt to band her horns later. I just could not bring myself to put her through it in this heat. BTW I'm in central Texas and anyone living here knows what I am talking about.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Yes, even with our lesser heat problems here in Southern Missouri, I do not kid out later than March(April if I *must*), so as to get the best growth from my kids and so as to *not* have to disbudd and castrate in the heat.
Castration especially.
If I have meat bucklings born later in the year, I simply do not castrate, just butcher before they get old enough for it to be a problem.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

As for the dehorning of goats, I have done it, but I only do it because you simply can not mix horned goats with goats that don't have horns. it's dangerous for the hornless animals.

All my animals simply do not have horns. You can't have both. Period.


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

Tell ya what. All the Boers have horns. The one Nubian does not.
Guess who's THEE Herd Queen!?
She plays referee when others are fighting. She sticks her naked head in there & somehow gets compliance.
Once I saw her try to break up a skirmish & they didnt "listen".
She went over to the dam of one of the does, stuck her nose in her ear, and that dam just lumbered over between the two and viola, fight over. It was quite comical actually.


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