# everyone should watch this



## prairiedog (Jan 18, 2007)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnlTYFKBg18[/ame]


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Before I spend an hour and a half - why am I watching this? Details would encourage people to click on it.


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## prairiedog (Jan 18, 2007)

It is a very informative video on the effects of GMO on animals and people.


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## IndyGardenGal (Apr 5, 2009)

Once I get the baby to sleep, I'm watching it!


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## CJBegins (Nov 20, 2009)

I had to stop when it got to the part that said that the Monsanto attorney also held two different positions with the FDA. I call that Conflict of Interest!


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Yep, it is really sad and scary how they have managed to become cozy bed partners with so many in government positions. I watched it with my kids and boy are they ready to go organic. My 12 and 14 year olds started rifling through the kitchen reading labels. 

They made sure I knew that I have a new mission when I go shopping next.


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## tambo (Mar 28, 2003)

There are more appropriate places to discuss GMO on the HT forum.


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## tambo (Mar 28, 2003)

Sorry for my confusion.


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

GMO truths are extremely inconvenient to explore because they are absolutely terrifying and the situation is extreme in it's catastrophic nature. 50 countries have banned or severely restricted GMOs, including France, Germany and Italy, while the US won't even allow labeling. 

There's a lot of information out there. Something I learned recently is that some of the GMO corn and soy products carry self replicating viruses (intended to wipe out bugs and diseases) and these viruses are beginning to infect and replicate within the guts of animals consuming these products. In effect: animals fed these products are having their guts turned into viral pesticide factories. So far it appears to be irreversible. 

The fact is that any way you cut it we do not know enough about the long term effects of GMO crops to be releasing them (irreversibly) into our environment.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Thank you for taking the time to talk about it and reopen it. It is appreciated. There is a lot of info in the video. People don't have to discuss it if they don't want to, but I do appreciate the ability for people to view it. What they do with the information is their business.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Thanks Tambo!!!!


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

@Prairiedog - Thanks for posting this. It's inspiring. For all the time I spend completely _freaking out_ about GMOs, I almost always shy away from sharing information about it in an attempt at avoiding conflict. I'm ashamed that I do that, and inspired that you put yourself out there, and received positive response from people willing to look into what you shared instead of flaming you on principal. 
Thank you.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

CageFreeFamily said:


> GMO truths are extremely inconvenient to explore because they are absolutely terrifying and the situation is extreme in it's catastrophic nature. 50 countries have banned or severely restricted GMOs, including France, Germany and Italy, while the US won't even allow labeling.
> 
> There's a lot of information out there. Something I learned recently is that some of the GMO corn and soy products carry self replicating viruses (intended to wipe out bugs and diseases) and these viruses are beginning to infect and replicate within the guts of animals consuming these products. In effect: animals fed these products are having their guts turned into viral pesticide factories. So far it appears to be irreversible.
> 
> The fact is that any way you cut it we do not know enough about the long term effects of GMO crops to be releasing them (irreversibly) into our environment.


It is extremely scary and inconvenient. My kids went through the whole pantry reading labels, a lot of things have been thrown away. When they read the ingredients and realize something has at least three GMOs in it and turn and look at me, (me who is the mom and supposed to fix everything and protect them) and ask if it should be thrown away, what else can I say but yes?


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## prairiedog (Jan 18, 2007)

Your welcome. I did not want to start a ruckus. I just wanted people to have a chance to see it. I thought I knew quite a bit about GMO but I learned a lot from this.


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> It is extremely scary and inconvenient. (me who is the mom and supposed to fix everything and protect them) and ask if it should be thrown away, what else can I say but yes?


Absolutely, and as a mom I'm really ----ed that I consumed this stuff while pregnant and gave it to my kids when they were babies, because I didn't know it was there, much less what it could do. We have a right to know about this and make choices. 

_"If you put a label on genetically engineered food you might as well put a skull & crossbones on it._" -president of Asgrow Seed Co., a subs. of Monsanto. 

"_Monsanto should not have to vouchsafe the safety of biotech food. Our interest in in selling as much of it as possible. Assuring its safety is the FDA's job."_ -Monsanto's director of corporate


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

I know what you mean. If had known what was going on in the food, I would have changed how I ate a long time ago. It's scary that they can sneak this kind of thing in on us and then pretend it's all okay.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

And actually, just so the mods know, I have no intention of arguing about GMOs with anybody. As far as I'm concerned the video speaks for itself. If someone doesn't want to believe it, then there is nothing I can say to change their minds.

I do appreciate the chance to share my thoughts and feelings on it with those who have the same concerns. I don't have a close community around me that I can share this kind of thing with. Being able to connect here on HT (which is my community) is nice and makes me feel less alone and crazy. Being able to share my desire to live simpler, eat healthier and raise goats and chickens and drink raw milk and eat fresh eggs as well as my concern over things like GMOs helps keep me from feeling completely crazy and helps keep me balanced and moving toward my goals.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I recommend that we (as a group) read The Omnivore's Delimma. It's not about GMOs, but it sure addresses other issues of our food system in this country.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

I would be interested in reading it, do you have a link?


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I recommend that we (as a group) read The Omnivore's Delimma. It's not about GMOs, but it sure addresses other issues of our food system in this country.


It's a fantastic, well researched, peer reviewed book that is absolutely relevant to us all.

I have a copy of _Omnivore's Dilemma,_ and a copy of_ OD For Kids_ that I'd be willing to offer up. Media mail is cheap enough for me to pass it around if anyone is interested. There are also a number of copies on AbeBooks.com for only about $6 with shipping. 

I would love to see a discussion of this here!


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Peer reviewed? Did someone say "peer reviewed"?


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

I cant watch the video because I have carpy satellite :grump:
Where can I find out what has GMO in it?


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

CaliannG said:


> Peer reviewed? Did someone say "peer reviewed"?


Um, yes?


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

I have read for years on GMOs but this video shocked me. I knew I didn't want to consume it but I really thought I only had to avoid a few things. I never in my wildest dreams thought it would now be in alfalfa which I feed to my goats that feed my family. I had the stupid notion that since I was feeding my family from my animals then all was well and I was feeding them well. I avoided HFCS like the plague, no trans fats for this family and we never really eat corn or soy or so I thought. Then I watched the video and today I went to the store. Almost everything has GMOs in it! Things I would never even consider to be a problem are full of GMOs like salad dressing, yogurt etc. My first thought was well I'll just bake and cook more of our stuff from scratch, except that even my cornstarch is GMO. There are literally like 3 aisles in the grocery store that have GMO free stuff the rest are basically poison. 

My husband has had irritable bowel for over 10 years and he spent 20 years drinking soy milk. He is now high risk for colon cancer. I honestly wish I knew about this 20 years ago and maybe he wouldn't be going through this. 

I for one am changing not only the way we eat but the way my animals eat as well. What they eat we essentially eat too. I'm thoroughly disgusted at the FDA and Monsanto for poisoning us.


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Shygal I would google GMO free shopping as a place to start.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

KrisD, that is why I called and spoke with Chaffhaye. I wanted to make sure the alfalfa I'm going to be feeding my goats when they return home in March is GMO free. Sunflower seeds aren't GMO yet. Not sure about oats, I don't think it is from what I've read, but I will dig further to make sure. I did find GMO free chicken food.


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## prairiedog (Jan 18, 2007)

I did find this site

http://www.nongmoshoppingguide.com/


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Oats aren't GMO, and sunflowers aren't (yet). 

Going to start growing my own of both. Gonna be hard in this soil, but they'll do better than a lot of other things.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

I did go to Standlee's website and read that they do not currently have any GMOs in their products. Doesn't say they won't have in the future, "not currently"


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## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> I did go to Standlee's website and read that they do not currently have any GMOs in their products. Doesn't say they won't have in the future, "not currently"


 A goat friend of mine posted on FB about Standlee adding GMO to their alfalfa pellets and wanted people to sign a petition to get them not to. I knew nothing about GMO's so I didn't sign it. I think I'll find her post and see if there is still time to get my name on the petition.. I do buy Standlee and would hate for them to change for the worse.


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## GoatJunkie (Dec 26, 2012)

I would like to bookmark this video. May I have a direct link please? (Im unable to aquire it myself.... on an iPhone.)

Thanks!


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Another interesting article for this of us that garden
http://www.seedalliance.org/Seed_News/SeminisMonsanto/


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

For the gardening folks
http://www.councilforresponsiblegenetics.org/ViewPage.aspx?pageId=261


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

Can't watch the video on my internet connection, too slow, and maybe these questions are answered in said video, but..... 

If GMO labeling is not happening, how can you _*really know *_what _is_ GMO free?? Is there a law that prohibits things from being labeled (read marketed) as GMO free if they are not GMO free?


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

prairiedog said:


> I did find this site
> 
> http://www.nongmoshoppingguide.com/


This is really helpful! thanks!


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## Hannah90 (May 2, 2012)

I consider myself somewhat of a GMO warrior around here. What the guy said at about 14 minutes about leaky gut made me ANGRY!

And can we talk about this "mystery organism"?????? I mean, frankly, the first thing that came to my mind was Zombie Apocalypse. Maybe not real in the literal term, but "mystery organism" really gives me the shakes.


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## prairiedog (Jan 18, 2007)

I consider anything with corn, soy or cotton seed oil GMO unless it is labeled organic. That means unless we buy organic no more corn chips and such. You can buy organic corn meal etc. More expensive but so are DR and vet bills.


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

I don't know if it's okay to post this..so the mods will have to delete it if it's not allowed.

This is actually about a little test that they did on goats and goat kids.

http://www.michaelfields.org/making-hay-with-gm-alfalfa/


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Here is the link for the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wnlTYFKBg18


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> I don't know if it's okay to post this..so the mods will have to delete it if it's not allowed.
> 
> This is actually about a little test that they did on goats and goat kids.
> 
> http://www.michaelfields.org/making-hay-with-gm-alfalfa/


Ugh, that is scary, I'm glad Chaffhaye isn't going to be using any GMO alfalfa.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

aart said:


> If GMO labeling is not happening, how can you _*really know *_what _is_ GMO free?? Is there a law that prohibits things from being labeled (read marketed) as GMO free if they are not GMO free?


If it is labeled organic, it is as GMO free as you can get. Organic certification requires no GMO where ever possible.


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

prairiedog said:


> I consider anything with corn, soy or cotton seed oil GMO unless it is labeled organic. That means unless we buy organic no more corn chips and such. You can buy organic corn meal etc. More expensive but so are DR and vet bills.


Even this is tricky, because our organic corn chips are often cooked with soybean oil! GMO ingredients can also be included as 'off label' ingredients. For instance, nearly all commercially available chicken (even organic) is fed soy and corn. Our most common organic food suppliers have been secretly bought by huge corporations (in favor of GMO) like Dean, Hain, P&G, etc, and Whole Foods Market itself has decided that they will not avoid GMO and have an estimated stock of up to 80% GMO. :Bawling: It's going to take a HUGE, vocal push from consumers to change this, which is tricky when so many people don't even know what a GMO is, or have only heard of it in a Monsanto funded ad claiming that they are 1. totally natural and 2. labeling them (for elitist foodies) will cause the food prices to skyrocket for everyone.

It's taken me 5 years of effort, and I still screw up, but we finally got to the point where we just don't buy anything that comes in a package or has an ingredient list. :Bawling:

I'm so happy that I finally (just yesterday) found a GMO free, organic feed for my goats. I'm relieved and also really put out because I'm now feeding $30/40# bags of feed to my poultry and goats while our alfalfa bales and grass hay bales still cost $16 each. Ouch.

With our goats (and other farm animals, especially our dogs and cats) it is getting ---- tricky. We're talking about their food being grown in open fields when the GMO crops are also being grown in open fields. The cross contamination issue is very real and began decades ago. Organic farmers are being sued by Monsanto because Monsanto's crops cross-pollinated with the farmer's fields and Monsanto sues for patent infringement.

With a time sensitive issue like this it's so important for those of us who even just want the time to make up our minds about it to call for a halt to the GMO progress.


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## prairiedog (Jan 18, 2007)

There is GMO free corn and soy products used in the organic. 

another good clip

http://samuel-warde.com/2013/02/the-11-year-old-kid-that-monsanto-doesnt-want-you-to-see/


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I feel overwhelmed....I gave up wheat at the begininng of the year and now this. Plus I have to worry about what I'm feeding to my animals to boot. It's getting harder and harder and a heck of lot more expensive.


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## prairiedog (Jan 18, 2007)

We just got back from grocery shopping and was pleased to find the organic section of the store fairly well stocked. The cereal isn't much different on price than the stuff on the main isle. They even have one that is like fruit loops but taste oh so much better. The youngest was so pleased. Found organic doritos made with organic corn corn chips and salsa and even some soda. The kids were relieved to find they don't have to give up everything that they like. We are pleased. We have found non GMO chicken food that is less than I pay now and so far oats and BOSS are safe. So is the chaffehay.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

The organic corn chips we found are fried in sunflower oil, so that is nice. 

Some things were more expensive, but it was worth it. The kids were reading labels off and looking through the groceries with far more interest than I have ever seen in them. I still need to find a source of organic corn meal and I need to find some organic chocolate chips for when I make cookies.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Oh and the sodas, made with pure cane sugar is so good. Soda will still be a treat around here, but at least when we do have it, it won't have a bunch of high fructose corn syrup or GMO beet sugar in it.

Edited to add: We did buy the ingredients to make our own home made Ranch salad dressing, miracle whip, and steak sauce, and chocolate syrup for milk. Can't find anything that doesn't have a bunch of soybean oil in it. Well we did find some in the organic isle, but it was a tiny bottle and we are family of seven.


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Do you have Hy-Vee grocery stores in Kansas? If you do..they usually sell Bob's Red Mill organic cornmeal. I believe Amazon.com carries Bob's Red Mill and possibly King Arthur's organic flours and such.

Hy-Vee and Amazon both carry Gharabaldi organic chocolate chips too.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

I'm going to put in one of these systems this summer. I've already got a 300 gallon stock tank, pump, greenhouse panels, and motivation!

I plan on incorporating a fodder system with it. 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JFs5V4YaTY[/ame]


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> Do you have Hy-Vee grocery stores in Kansas? If you do..they usually sell Bob's Red Mill organic cornmeal. I believe Amazon.com carries Bob's Red Mill and possibly King Arthur's organic flours and such.
> 
> Hy-Vee and Amazon both carry Gharabaldi organic chocolate chips too.


No, we don't have a Hy-Vee here. Or at least no where near me. I will check Amazon. Thanks!


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Am I crazy? As we walked through the store today, avoiding 99% of the stuff in there, I looked at people walking around with their kids. Their carts were piled full of GMO products and deep inside I wanted to walk up and shake them and ask, "Do you have any idea what is in that stuff? Do you have any idea what it could do you and your kids?"

Of course, they probably don't and I didn't do it. But still I look at the isles in the grocery store in a whole new way and grocery shopping took longer because nothing went into the cart without having its label read first.


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> I still need to find a source of organic corn meal and I need to find some organic chocolate chips for when I make cookies.


If you don't have an organic market, things like this can be found online. Many of them are even on Amazon.com. If you have a farmers market there may be corn flour and corn meal available there. 

Another option is to invest in a grain mill, because you can grind your own wheat, corn, coffee, etc. and save a ton of cash, and it's even healthier for you to use freshly ground grains.


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> Am I crazy? As we walked through the store today, avoiding 99% of the stuff in there, I looked at people walking around with their kids. Their carts were piled full of GMO products and deep inside I wanted to walk up and shake them and ask, "Do you have any idea what is in that stuff? Do you have any idea what it could do you and your kids?"
> 
> Of course, they probably don't and I didn't do it. But still I look at the isles in the grocery store in a whole new way and grocery shopping took longer because nothing went into the cart without having its label read first.


You're not crazy. It's one of those things, once you learn about it the world around you looks shockingly different. It used to take us an hour and a half to get through the grocery store, reading labels, getting lost on how to make our favorite dishes, not knowing what replace things with. It gets easier though. I can pick up 7 days worth of groceries (with three young kids in tow) in 20 minutes. I still want to hand out info pamphlets every time I venture into the conventional grocery store though. That's one thing that doesn't seem to go away.

My biggest mistake over the years was information overload. I would learn about something and delve head first into it. All of it led to knew information until I was so overwhelmed that I either got depressed or so freaked out that I didn't feel like I could do anything. I'm a big believer in Baby Steps


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Audra I had the same experience at the store! I felt like I was just staring at people's carts filled with garbage. It's like all of a sudden there is a skull and cross bones on everything. 

The only organic animal food I can find is WAY more expensive like $30/bag for chicken feed compared to the $13 I'm used to paying. I am still going to buy regular oats though to cut my bill a little. Goat food is the same way price wise.

I switched the girls to Timothy pellets instead of Alfalfa pellets because I couldn't find anything so far saying that Timothy is a problem. Being a dollar cheaper then alfalfa doesn't hurt either. 

Yes it's more expensive but I look at it this way, my family drinks the milk and eats the eggs. So what they eat we are too. Not to mention if they got sick or got cancer because of my negligence I would never forgive myself.


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

I use this one quite a bit...vita cost. If you buy over 49 dollars worth..I believe the shipping is free. You can't believe how much I have ordered from them at a time. I pretty much like them and Amazon both. 

VITA COST


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## The Tin Mom (Dec 30, 2008)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> No, we don't have a Hy-Vee here. Or at least no where near me. I will check Amazon. Thanks!


OBF, Lots of Hy-Vee stores in KC - didn't know about your area..... Hope you can find one...


Thanks to you & Prairiedog for posting the video! It has made me sit up and take notice....


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## The Tin Mom (Dec 30, 2008)

CageFreeFamily said:


> If you don't have an organic market, things like this can be found online. Many of them are even on Amazon.com. If you have a farmers market there may be corn flour and corn meal available there.
> 
> Another option is to invest in a grain mill, because you can grind your own wheat, corn, coffee, etc. and save a ton of cash, and it's even healthier for you to use freshly ground grains.


A friend of mine uses Azure Standard. They sell many organically grown items... .You can find it online. Until tonight, I am afraid I was not interested enough to buy much from them.... Will look into it more this week...

I know Azure Standard sells organically grown wheat, etc. at a reasonable price. They have order deadlines and drop off points. I can ask my friend more about it if anyone is interested. Now that dd's all-consuming scholarship competition is over, I can have a life again....


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

The things you have to worry about are corn and alfalfa. There is no GMO wheat currently released for market (although they are working on it. ~sigh~).

Even at that, the corn is more dangerous than the alfalfa. So far, they have only made Round-up Ready alfalfa. The modification is simply to resist a certain, common herbicide.

The corn, however.....much of the corn is Bt corn. Bt is a pesticide...so that is a corn that MAKES its own pesticide....inside the plant itself. This is not something you can wash off, as it is inside the cells.

So, if you wish to go in baby steps to eliminate feed, go for getting rid of the corn first. You can substitute oats, barley, wheat...lots of stuff.


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## LoneStrChic23 (Jul 30, 2010)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> I did go to Standlee's website and read that they do not currently have any GMOs in their products. Doesn't say they won't have in the future, "not currently"


 I dunno if it is still on their FB page or not, but I asked them about this..... On another forum, a hay grower that lives in their neck of the woods mentioned that from time to time, Standlee buys up hay if they are short. They don't ask questions about whether it's GMO or not, just get it tested for protein and such....

After hearing that, I went back to my post on their FB wall and asked if they knew the GMO status of any hay they purchase and I got a somewhat snarky reply. Have no clue if it's still on their FB wall or not.... If not, go ask them and be very specific in your wording as the snarky reply to me was worded in an evasive way that didn't truly answer my question....


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

aart said:


> Can't watch the video on my internet connection, too slow, and maybe these questions are answered in said video, but.....
> 
> If GMO labeling is not happening, how can you _*really know *_what _is_ GMO free?? Is there a law that prohibits things from being labeled (read marketed) as GMO free if they are not GMO free?





CaliannG said:


> If it is labeled organic, it is as GMO free as you can get. Organic certification requires no GMO where ever possible.


So the farmers, or wherever the 'organic' producers buy their ingredients, _have to disclose_ whether their products are GMO or not or were grown anywhere near enough GMO crops to be contaminated?!?! So some 'labeling' or disclosure is required somewhere upstream?? Really?

'no GMO _where ever possible'_ sounds like a huge loophole. 

My brother was certified organic many years ago, it was a huge, lengthy process and expensive. He said that when 'organic' label became a more mainstream fad the organic laws became a bit more lax and enforcement even more lax. He quit being offically certified but his customers knew his practices.

I'm not attacking any messengers here, just have a huge problem with accountability of disclosure and what real information is available to the consumer...and the _marketing_ just makes me grind my teeth! 'GMO free' is going to become, if it isn't already, just another marketing word with no accountability behind it....like 'natural', 'cage free', etc etc

Sorry, rant over.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

CaliannG said:


> ......The corn, however.....much of the corn is Bt corn. Bt is a pesticide...so that is a corn that MAKES its own pesticide....inside the plant itself. This is not something you can wash off, as it is inside the cells.......


So the BT reproduces inside the cells of the corn plant as it grows from the lab produced GMO corn seed? 

It remains viable in the corn grown on that plant?

It survives the animals eating it and ends up viable in that animals feces on the ground? 

It survives in the soil said feces was dropped on? 

Does any of the Bt remain in the products that animals body produces, meat, milk?

Curious as to all the details and the true biological/chemical trail from lab to land and wonders if all the aspects of said trail have been quantitatively tested by objective authorities to come to unquestionable conclusions that might be readily available to any consumer.

There is SO much subjective misinformation out there that folks are reacting to, generating more subjective misinformation that generates more....and on and on and on and on.

Sorry ranting again...Caliann I am not attacking you personally, just quoted your concise statement as I think you might have the most concise answer-if there is one.


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Yes the BT replicates itself inside the plant. The corn is eaten say by mice, the BT is found in all the blood and organs of the mouse, it replicates itself like a virus does. However there is some new studies "suggesting" that once off the GMOs the body can basically fight some of it off. This has not been proven yet but it looks promising. 

In pregnant women they have found the GMOs in their blood streams, organs and lymph nodes as well as their breast milk. So our babies while not eating food yet are getting the GMOs directly from us. 

Corn, soy, cottonseed meal and alfalfa, those are the big 4 but it is also in sugar beets, and some zucchini and squashes. After my trip to the store I found that corn and soy are in EVERYTHING. Corn syrup, corn starch, corn gluten meal etc. some things I read the entire ingredient list and nothing was listed until I got to the bottom and it states "contains soy". 
Regular grains like wheat, oats and barley are still safe but we all know that will change eventually. 

In the health food section many things were labeled " No GMOs". However most were not labeled. I did call companies right from my cell phone while in the store just to ask if it wasn't labeled. I figure calling companies lets them know what is important to their customers.


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## prairiedog (Jan 18, 2007)

I kind of relate it ti radiation. one x-ray now and then won't cause much damage however if I load my body with it every day several times a day the effects would certainly be there. I might not be able to eliminate all bad thing in my diet but if I can lesson the exposure to me my animals and my grand kids it has to be a good thing.


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## o&itw (Dec 19, 2008)

Thanks to Prariedog for presenting this video in a non controversial way. It is good to have it presented as a "here it is, watch it if you want" video instead of a "I am going to cram this down your throat" Perhaps that is why we are all commenting and not fighting.

While every presentation naturally tends to slant things in the direction of their view, I must admit that it has made me more interested in pursuing the subject further.

One thing to mention, is that BT is a commonly used by many organic farmers to control cabbage worms, corn worms, and similar pests.  It is not in itself dangerous to humans in any way. It is the splicing of the organisms DNA into another organism that is (potentially) causing the problem.


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## "SPIKE" (Dec 7, 2011)

I made the time to watch this. It is scarry and most people really have no idea. 
To me, this is an issue that the government intities looking out for the heath of the public, should error on the side of caution. 
It realy is a shame how money rules our world. (Glad we are a civilized creature! LOL)

By the nature of how I live, I avoid a lot of the harm the general public is exposed to. I raise a lot of my meat and almost all my vegetables. But, we still have to purchase some items and corn in some form is in almost everything. I guess I will have to give up my sweet corn. It is one of the few hybrid type plants I grow. 

I stopped feeding my AGHs corn, but did not think about problems with the beet pulp! It is a by-product of sugar beet processing. I can eleminate that also.

What about pelletized animal feeds? Where do the processed grain by-products, roughage products, forage products, plant protien products, and items like this come from?

For a creature that has great potiential, humans really are ..............

SPIKE


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## "SPIKE" (Dec 7, 2011)

OOPPs, I forgot about my chickens! Scratch grain is mostly corn, 80 to 85 percent probably. GRRRRR
I like my eggs. 
What is a good cheap alternative to chicken scratch grain?

SPIKE


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## prairiedog (Jan 18, 2007)

We found a mill close that will bag GMO free milo and linseed for us for the chickens for less than I was paying for my layer pellets. If production goes down a little I will live with it.


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## prairiedog (Jan 18, 2007)

Wish we were in a place where we could grow more of our own meat. Only have room for chickens. Want room to add a pig or two and a few meat goats.


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

prairiedog said:


> Wish we were in a place where we could grow more of our own meat. Only have room for chickens. Want room to add a pig or two and a few meat goats.


If you lived close enough to me...we would trade you some beef for something you have. We don't claim to have ORGANIC..but they are grass/hay fed only. No grain..ever..Dexter steers.

I'd look around your area for someone that you could trade with. I think it's gonna get down to that eventually.


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## IndyGardenGal (Apr 5, 2009)

We are lucky because we live within spitting distance of a locally owned organic feed mill. You can also buy "transitional" grains. It's basically the grain that's grown organically during the period that they have to wait before they can be certified.

We are also working with a small farmer that grows spelt and popcorn for select markets. He's small enough that he'll come out and help us combine any organic grains we grow. We won't likely plant corn though, due to cross contamination. Looking at growing field peas (I avoid soy, GMO or not), and then wheat or spelt. We may try to get barley at some point to sell locally for people using fodder systems.


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Judy I bred 2 of my girls to a Boer buck this year to put some meat in the freezer without having own yet another breed. Maybe when your goats come back that will be an option for you.


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## IndyGardenGal (Apr 5, 2009)

You could also get meat rabbits. Easy to raise in a small space.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Spike, chickens will eat any grain: oats, barley, milo, wheat, etcetera. Lots of safe choices out there.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

We plan to breed to a Boer buck next fall for meat babies.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

aart said:


> So the BT reproduces inside the cells of the corn plant as it grows from the lab produced GMO corn seed?
> 
> It remains viable in the corn grown on that plant?


From the University of Kentucky:

"Bt Delta Endotoxin
The Bt delta endotoxin was selected because it is highly effective at controlling Lepidoptera larvae, caterpillars. It is during the larval stage when most of the damage by European corn borer occurs. The protein is very selective, generally not harming insects in other orders (such as beetles, flies, bees and wasps). For this reason, GMOs that have the Bt gene are compatible with biological control programs because they harm insect predators and parasitoids much less than broad-spectrum insecticides. The Bt endotoxin is considered safe for humans, other mammals, fish, birds, and the environment because of its selectivity. Bt has been available as a commercial microbial insecticide since the 1960s and is sold under many trade names. These products have an excellent safety record and can be used on many crops until the day of harvest.

To kill a susceptible insect, a part of the plant that contains the Bt protein (not all parts of the plant necessarily contain the protein in equal concentrations) must be ingested. Within minutes, the protein binds to the gut wall and the insect stops feeding. Within hours, the gut wall breaks down and normal gut bacteria invade the body cavity. The insect dies of septicaemia as bacteria multiply in the blood. Even among Lepidoptera larvae, species differ in sensitivity to the Bt protein.

Genetic Modification
Do Bt-corn hybrids differ only in that they possess the genetic code to produce the Bt protein? Not exactly. To add a trait to a crop plant, the gene must be inserted along with some additional genetic material. This additional genetic material includes a promoter sequence that, in part, determines how the new trait is expressed in the plant. For example, the promoter may cause to protein to be expressed in certain parts of the plants or only during a particular period of time. There is a marker gene that allows plant breeders to easily determine which plants have been transformed. Herbicide and antibiotic tolerance promoters are commonly used to identify transformed plants. There may also be a plasmid or vector sequence that allows for rapid multiplication of the gene of interest in a bacterial host prior to insertion in the crop plant."


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

http://grist.org/industrial-agriculture/gmo-sugar-beets-get-the-green-light/

Since GMO beets were given the green light in the middle of last summer, you are still able to get beet pulp without worry. Will be interesting how widespread GMO sugar beets will become.
The above web site talks about the soon to be available 2,4D resistant crops and mentions 2.4D overspray going 100 miles! Enjoy.


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## yarrow (Apr 27, 2004)

Knowing what a hot topic GMO could be.. I never mentioned on here that the number one reason we quit feeding the goat ration we'd fed for years... was to feed less GMO feedstuffs.. First thing that went was the alfalfa pellets (price, quality were already making me rethink the pellets.. BUT.. the GMO alfalfa was the final nail for me)... then I realized that my goat ration wasn't any less *GMO-y*.. so that was gone, I started buying whole oats instead.. figured out the blackoil sunflower seeds were *proabably* okay... BUT.. NOT the beet pulp we also top dressed with... so, for over 18 months the herd has eaten nothing but whole oats, limited sunflower seeds, grass hay and what ever browse that's out there (for the doe herd, bucks are always dry lotted).. Vet was here last week to pull blood.. he kept commenting on how good the girls looked..finally asked me if we had switched hay suppliers or something.. told him nope, just went down to single ingredient feed.. he seemed almost pleased that they could do so well on just the oats & boss (asked which place I buy my feed from! made me feel good that he was impressed enough with the herd's condition to ask in-depth questions)... 

Also got the pregnancy reports back friday.. ALL does bred (everyone of them *took* on just one breeding.. usually there are at least a couple who cycle back a time or two.. not this year!).. noticing we have bigger baby bellies then we've had in quite a while.. a few does are huge for their due date.... don't know if it was the feed change or not.. but there are a lot of fat, sassy, shinny girls out there.. (and my feed bill has never been lower!) and I had a friend point out that I should advertise the herd as GMO free~!!! LOL, he thinks it would be a selling point...

susie, mo ozarks


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

On resistance:

"Preventing Bt resistance in pests
By law, farmers in the United States who plant Bt corn must plant non-Bt corn nearby. These unmodified fields are to provide a location to harbor pests. The theory behind these refuges is to slow the evolution of the pests' resistance to the Bt pesticide. Doing so enables an area of the landscape where wild type pests will not be immediately killed.

It is anticipated resistance to Bt will evolve in the form of a recessive allele in the pest. Because of this, a pest that gains resistance will have an incredibly higher fitness than the wild type pest in the Bt corn fields. If the resistant pest is feeding in the non-Bt corn nearby, the resistance is neutral and offers no advantage to the pest over any nonresistant pest. Ensuring there are at least some breeding pests nearby that are not resistant increases the chance the resistant pests will choose to mate with nonresistant ones. Since the gene is recessive, all offspring will be heterozygous, and the offspring from that mating will not be resistant to Bt and therefore no longer a threat. Using this method, scientists and farmers hope to keep the number of resistant genes very low, and use genetic drift to ensure any resistance that does emerge does not spread.

Although mandated by law, compliance data from the EPA for 2008 showed, however, 25% of Bt corn growers were not in compliance. The data showed noncompliance climbed to 13.23 million acres (53,500 km2), or almost 15% of all Bt corn grown, suggesting in some areas ample acreage does not exist to support pests without resistance to mate with any resistant pests that survived the Bt corn.[10]

The European corn borer, one of the primary insects Bt is meant to target, has been shown to be capable of developing resistance to the Bt protein"

From Colorado State University:

"Is the entire Bt corn plant toxic?
A: It depends. Two factors, the event and the promoter, control where delta toxins are produced in the plant and in what amounts. Different seed companies use different events and promoters, so their hybrids will also be different in what plant tissues produce Bt toxins.

The insertion event is the physical act of putting the Bt gene into the corn plant&#8217;s genetic material. This is when the physical location of the Bt gene is determined (which chromosome, what part of the chromosome, etc). Gene location affects where in the plant toxins are produced and how much Bt toxin is produced. Currently, we do not have the technology to control Bt gene location, so each event results in plants that differ in where and in how much delta endotoxin is produced.

The promoter is a genetic switch that tells the inserted Bt gene when and where to produce Bt toxins. Several different promoters are available and the choice of promoter also affects where and how much delta endotoxin is produced in the corn plant, leading to differences among hybrids."

"Q: Is it true that the roots of Bt corn plants leak delta endotoxins into the soil? 
A: Yes, this has been demonstrated in several laboratory studies. However, the implications for various soil organisms are unclear. Since Bt is a very common soil bacterium, it is likely that exposure of these organisms to Bt toxins is common. The levels of Bt toxins measured in the lab studies were at least 10 times below those that cause observable effects in important soil organisms such as earthworms and springtails."

"Q: I&#8217;ve heard that Bt corn is a health threat because it causes allergic responses in some people. Is this true?
A: Some experimental transgenic plants have caused allergic responses. The EPA requires several food allergen tests as part of the registration process for transgenic crops containing pesticidal substances. The first test measures the length of time that the potential allergen survives in an acid environment. Longer survival times indicate more likelihood of surviving the digestion process and being absorbed into the blood stream, which is the first step in food allergenicity."


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

And yes, it is true that Bt proteins HAVE been found in the blood streams of pregnant women. Supposedly, the current strains of Bt crops have a kind of Bt that is completely broken down in the acidic environment of the stomach, and therefore does not enter the bloodstream. Unfortunately, in practice, this has not been found to be true.

There have also been issues with immunosuppresent people developing allergies to it.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

yarrow said:


> Knowing what a hot topic GMO could be.. I never mentioned on here that the number one reason we quit feeding the goat ration we'd fed for years... was to feed less GMO feedstuffs.. First thing that went was the alfalfa pellets (price, quality were already making me rethink the pellets.. BUT.. the GMO alfalfa was the final nail for me)... then I realized that my goat ration wasn't any less *GMO-y*.. so that was gone, I started buying whole oats instead.. figured out the blackoil sunflower seeds were *proabably* okay... BUT.. NOT the beet pulp we also top dressed with... so, for over 18 months the herd has eaten nothing but whole oats, limited sunflower seeds, grass hay and what ever browse that's out there (for the doe herd, bucks are always dry lotted).. Vet was here last week to pull blood.. he kept commenting on how good the girls looked..finally asked me if we had switched hay suppliers or something.. told him nope, just went down to single ingredient feed.. he seemed almost pleased that they could do so well on just the oats & boss (asked which place I buy my feed from! made me feel good that he was impressed enough with the herd's condition to ask in-depth questions)...
> 
> Also got the pregnancy reports back friday.. ALL does bred (everyone of them *took* on just one breeding.. usually there are at least a couple who cycle back a time or two.. not this year!).. noticing we have bigger baby bellies then we've had in quite a while.. a few does are huge for their due date.... don't know if it was the feed change or not.. but there are a lot of fat, sassy, shinny girls out there.. (and my feed bill has never been lower!) and I had a friend point out that I should advertise the herd as GMO free~!!! LOL, he thinks it would be a selling point...
> 
> susie, mo ozarks


I wish you would have talked about then. We've always fed whole oats and sunflower seeds because that is what Emily fed. But we were feeding beet pulp and alfalfa pellets as well.

Now that we know, we will stick with Chaffhaye for the alfalfa source and we will stop using beet pulp. They will still get some grass hay.

Had we understood sooner, we would have switched sooner. That is why I'm so glad we can have this discussion now. I've learned a lot from it.


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## yarrow (Apr 27, 2004)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> I wish you would have talked about then. We've always fed whole oats and sunflower seeds because that is what Emily fed. But we were feeding beet pulp and alfalfa pellets as well.
> 
> Now that we know, we will stick with Chaffhaye for the alfalfa source and we will stop using beet pulp. They will still get some grass hay.
> 
> Had we understood sooner, we would have switched sooner. That is why I'm so glad we can have this discussion now. I've learned a lot from it.


LOL..we were getting so many questions about how we were getting enough calcium into them... I knew I didn't know enough about GMO to explain my decision tp stop feedong them....just knew ENOUGH to NOT want to feed it/eat it...once Jess got pregnant with Zade...knew I didn't want GMOs as part of His food...so we got serious about it... I've always gardened with heirloom --OP seed,...so why not GMO free dairy too? the herd's overall improvement really tells me it was the way to go. I have also been wheat free myself, since my brain bleed/surgery...feeling much better...less joint pain...gut issues..brain fog gone.. 

susie. mo ozarks


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

So now when we have these questions where kiddings are off a various different problems are we going to ask if GMO food is being fed? Would that be a good question? I asked on this thread and seem to be being ignored. Was it a stupid question? or rude or anything? 
I feel like a dork now. 
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/goats/475362-kidding-season-abnormalities.html


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Actually, I wanted to ask that too, but was afraid of any backlash.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> Actually, I wanted to ask that too, but was afraid of any backlash.


Sure...I'll be the guinea pig


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

LOL, I think we are just so gun shy about talking about it, that its going to end up constrained here. Which is okay. This is the GMO thread. So maybe we should be asking what people think about the possibilities of such problems seen in that thread, here in this one as related to GMO feeds.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Well after watching that video I feel like it should be as common a question as when was the last time wormed with what how much. Especially if it a herd wide abnormality.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Honestly, Min, it's because no one really knows.

That's the trouble when you have a dearth of peer-reviewed, independent studies...you don't know.

Bt proteins from GMOs have been found in the bloodstreams of pregnant women. Okay. What happened then?

Ummmmmmm.........

We don't know the effect of GMOs on cellular development and reproduction. We don't know how they might/do affect developing fetuses. We don't know....

Honestly, we don't know much about them at all, except that they make farmer's jobs a lot easier and they result in less use of pesticides/herbicides in the environment.

But, it's one of those things.....you think "less pesticides/herbicides = good, right? Save the environment! Yay!" But unfortunately, we just don't know a lot about how these thing effect those that consume them. I might also add that there have been a LOT of things that we *thought* were good at the time...like saying nearly eliminating mosquitoes, and therefore significantly reducing malaria and a number of other serious diseases spread by them. I am ALL FOR not getting bitten by mosquitoes and reducing the spread of debilitating disease.

But DDT had some unintended consequences that we didn't really foresee, didn't it?


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> LOL, I think we are just so gun shy about talking about it, that its going to end up constrained here. Which is okay. This is the GMO thread. So maybe we should be asking what people think about the possibilities of such problems seen in that thread, here in this one as related to GMO feeds.


Well I guess after watching that video my first suggestion to the OP in that thread would be to watch the video and discontinue any GMO feeds and see if that helps for next kidding season. And then yell ''Hey!! we are talking about you over here!!!!'' and hopefully they will come on over


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

I feel the same way Michele. When one poster asked about feed and if he alfalfa mix was a good price I felt like I had to say something but I don't want to get flamed. So I just said "alfalfa is GMO if that bothers you". 
In the last 20 years we have had an explosion of Autism and childhood food allergies, I don't think that's coincidence. I believe (no I can't prove it) that GMO foods is making kids more sensitive to things. They've already shown a link in kids with Autism have gut issues that are unique to Autism. I also know more kids with food allergies then I ever have in my entire life. 
My husband is lactose intolerant, has irritable bowel and is a high risk for colon cancer. There is NO family history of any of it. My husband drank soy milk for 20 years, and drank tons of stuff with High Fructose Corn Syrup. Yes I think there is a connection I haven't figured out yet.

I do think it's okay to ask people who are having problems with their goats if their feed is GMO. It may not tell us anything now but we may start seeing a patern in the next few years. After all there are very few studies on goats and that's why we se so many drugs off label but from years of trial and error connections were made and now we know a whole lot more then we did even 10 years ago. We need to ask the questions to get the information for tomorrow. 

Susie I too wish you had shared that information. I know it's a tricky subject but we like to learn from others.


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## yarrow (Apr 27, 2004)

all I've been going on...is a gut feeling, that GMOs are not going to end up good for us, for our kid (human or goat)..the birth of the grandbaby just really made me make some real choices for him, for me..for the herd. hopefully it won't be too little to late

susie, mo ozarks


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

This thread makes me want to buy up an entire state and move all of the good-neighbor types at HT there. We'd have some very rich hay and grain farmers in our state!


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Hubby and I bought a gravity wagon today. It's a tinker toy compared to the ones the big farmers use, but it will hold 100 bushels of barley or corn. Now to find one more....


The aquaponics/fodder/pit greenhouse project marches on.


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

yarrow said:


> all I've been going on...is a gut feeling, that GMOs are not going to end up good for us, for our kid (human or goat)..the birth of the grandbaby just really made me make some real choices for him, for me..for the herd. hopefully it won't be too little to late
> 
> susie, mo ozarks


Hey yarrow..that you started is so much more than most people do. I think, I pray, that more studies will start recognizing that this has to be looked into more. If it's not good for animals..it won't be good for us and vise versa. 

I hope this brings out a bunch of ideas. I hope that we can get a fodder conversation going that has renewed interest with these conversations about GMOs. I really want to start the fodder..but I am someone that needs to be talked through it a bit before I jump in.

It's never easy to wake up..it's never easy to change. I applaud you. And I hope that like minded people on this goat forum can share and bolster each other when we need it. It's not easy going against the tide..but I think it's worth it. Congrats!


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## Helena (May 10, 2002)

I'm going nuts here. Now I am getting paranoid. Other than spending more $$$'s on my barn animals feed and our food...I feel as though I should dump my kitchen cupboards in the garbage. How did it get this bad.?? I will start a little at a time..check things I buy from now on more carefully. Are we all doomed.?? And is it too late for us old timers..??:awh::duel:


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

I don't honk it's ever too late. The body can do amazing things if we give it the right tools. 
I said the same that I would start small and not panic, then I opened my pantry to get a snack and instantly lost my appetite, now I'm cleaning out the pantry...

I have to say that the upside is I buy a whole lot less stuff at the store now since most everything is GMO.


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## "SPIKE" (Dec 7, 2011)

SilverFlame819 said:


> This thread makes me want to buy up an entire state and move all of the good-neighbor types at HT there. We'd have some very rich hay and grain farmers in our state!


That really is a great thought, even if it is not possible. It is a grand thing to think about.:clap:

SPIKE


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## "SPIKE" (Dec 7, 2011)

What are the most modified seeds/plants?
Corn, soybeans, sugar beets, and alfalfa pellets are the ones I have seen mentioned most
How wide spread is the use of GMO technology. 
And I do not mean hybrid vegetables. That is not quite the same, is it?


I guess Corn seems to be the biggest problem, since it contains its own pesticide. Or am I mistaken? How have the other plants been modified?

I am not going to panic and change my whole world over night, but I will be making some changes. I can easily eleminate corn from the diet of the chickens and American Guinea Hogs. Goats do not get corn, unless there has been some mixed into the pellet mix! It may cost a bit more. 

I am not sure what to do about the pelleted feed yet. It is an easy way to get extra vitamins and supplements to all the different animals. I do somewhat trust the co-op feed makers to be adding the proper additives to the different feeds to get each different animal the things they need to be healthy. (Lay pellets, swine feed, different goat feeds) I will be trying to get further info from the co-op feed mill about all the different by-products, roughage products,forage products, etc.

I have confirmed with the manufacturer that the Alfalfa Pellets the co-op sell is made from a NON-GMO crop. I would hate to eliminate that from the goats.
Even if I change the goats feed to something like Yarrows mix, I would still like to add the alfalfa pellets($15.36 per 50 pounds and that includes the 9.75% TN sales tax). I would then still have to research how to add the extra vitamins and supplements.
The Alfalfa pellets I use are;

Dehy Alfalfa Mills
5935 McCall Lane
Arlington, NE
www.dehyalfalfamills.com (site is under some construction at this time)
Phone 402-478-4344

I spoke with Brent and David is the owner. You may be able to find a distributor in your area. They have a Certified Facility SAFE FEED/SAFE FOOD label on the bag. I suggested to Brent that if the really sell non-GMO they should add that to the label. They do spray crops, but also have a totally organic line.

SPIKE


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## yarrow (Apr 27, 2004)

Spike you are lucky to be able to get nice GMO free pellets... I asked the type/source of the pellets our local mill has... they looked at me, well... like I had two heads LOL.. they had NO CLUE where they came from (at least the guy I was talking to was clueless)...

I'm hoping that the grandbaby can be *spared* all the things my own kids were not.. being so isolated (no other kids around... his mom plans on taking care of that *in-house*.. plans for trying for number 2 this fall!).. any how, being isolated, not watching a ton of tv.. he may well have no clue what a McDonald's is!!! (seriously, the little town by us has NOTHING fast food chain wise).. the next town has a McD. a Subway, a Dairy Queen and a Sonic.. none of which do we venture to for more then an occasional quick salad.. MY kids were city raised.. fast food on every corner.. commercials galore, all their friends.. besides never getting Zade started on fast food.. we also plan on as little High Fructose Corn Syrup as possible... My daughter & son-in-law have already cut out soda pop... I'm trying hard LOL.. the hope is again, if Zade doesn't see it, he won't want it.. if he never tastes it while little, he will again, hopefully be clueless! ... with, us being wheat free...maybe he'll stay nice and lean (he is a healthy looking 8 month old, without any extra babyfat).. gone from my cupboards too are all the white processed stuff.. if you want a potato.. you get a sweet potato (that one was hard for me.. I loved me taters!).. white rice is now brown (and takes a heck of a lot longer to cook LOL)...Jess totally quit caffeine 6 months before she became pregnant.. she and hubby both took folic acid every day for those same 6 months.. she was so careful thru out her pregnancy not to take anything medication ect.. SO>>> if she worked that hard to get him here healthy.. I can't let him down, by being a yaya that feeds him garbage>.. He will grow up consuming the goat milk/cheese/ice cream ect... so cleaning up the goat feed was as much for him, as the goats (their improved condition tells me that also benefit from it!)... knowing he'll be eating farm eggs too.. the chickens also got cut off from corn & soy... they too live on oats/boss .. they free range, so lots of found foods keep them all busy... Gardening has been harder for me here in the Ozarks, then anywhere else we've ever lived... more bugs and veggie eating critters then I've ever battled before.. SO, in an attempt to not ever loose another tomato crop to pests.. we have just completed a garden room... it is on a concrete slab, 8 x 16' .. it's 8 feet tall, the frame is covered in screen AND hardware cloth (so the stupid guineas don't fall thru the screen.. LOL).. I will be growing most of my tomatoes, peppers, herbs and such in there.. I look forward to being able garden by Twinkle light (using LED christmas tree lights) in the cool of the evening.. barefoot, no stooping over, no weeding...again, changes brought about by the addition of the baby (so enjoying getting the chance to start over with a new one) the whole what we can and can't eat/buy has been a slow learning process.. sometimes hard.. but in the end, more then worth it.. baby steps..wee baby steps towards a healthier future.

susie, mo ozarks


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Thank you prairiedog for posting this. I didn't know much about GMO's until I came to HT. I think it's important for everyone to educate themselves on this.


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Spike you're lucky, around here the only alfalfa pellets I can get are from Purina and no telling what is in those. There is one other company that sells them but I tried 3 separate times and both times I got two jumbo coffee cans of dust at the bottom of the bag. Plus they are a lot more expensive. 
So I switched to Timothey pellets so they still get protein and no GMOs. For grain we are going to go with oats and my feed dealer is getting in linseed meal.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

never mind.


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## SueMc (Jan 10, 2010)

The GM issues are never ending:

http://www.naturalnews.com/039013_flu_vaccine_insect_virus_GMOs.html


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I just sent an email to Taste of the Wild. I was thrilled to see no corn or soy on the package but then had canola oil in the ingredients. ugh. That was one of the items warned about in the video. So I asked them if there was any way they could assure me it is non GMO canola oil or I'm going to have to switch to another food.  
My dog Boris is on antibiotics for a puncture wound...I gave him the pill in peanut butter. Turned the jar around and read the ingredients......eeee gads!!!!! into the garbage it went. This is hard!!


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

haypoint said:


> No GMO alfalfa on the market, yet. Seems that instead of or in addition to, you'd want to know if the alfalfa was sprayed with an insecticide. Generally, insecticides are much more toxic than herbicides with Round Up amoung the lowest in toxicity.


How do you find that out??


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Minelson said:


> How do you find that out??


In the ever growing trend to buy local, I'd suggest you avoid a national pellet company and simply buy alfalfa hay from a local farmer. Ask him if he sprays his fields and if so, with what. Then read up on it. Perhaps you can get a cutting before he sprays or well afterwards. A bale fits into a food grade 55 gal. barrel. feed out as much as you need each day. Then feed the alfalfa leaf that has formed green dust in the bottom of the barrel. There shouldn't be any reason that a homesteader has to depend on processed animal feed pellets processed far away. If they can make dog food in China, I think they could make alfalfa pellets, too.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

never mind.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

never mind.


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## SueMc (Jan 10, 2010)

I shouldn't have posted a secondary source. Some can be as unreliable as someone on the internet posting an opinion .
Here is an older but interesting presentation on the technology:
http://dc.engconfintl.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1004&context=vaccine



haypoint said:


> I have found several articles on Natural News to be wrong and misleading. Read with caution. They have photoshopped photos to create the image of things that didn't happen. :hand:


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

never mind.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

haypoint said:


> In the ever growing trend to buy local, I'd suggest you avoid a national pellet company and simply buy alfalfa hay from a local farmer. Ask him if he sprays his fields and if so, with what. Then read up on it. Perhaps you can get a cutting before he sprays or well afterwards. A bale fits into a food grade 55 gal. barrel. feed out as much as you need each day. Then feed the alfalfa leaf that has formed green dust in the bottom of the barrel. There shouldn't be any reason that a homesteader has to depend on processed animal feed pellets processed far away. If they can make dog food in China, I think they could make alfalfa pellets, too.



I do have an excellent source for organic alfalfa. I think this may be the key for me to stay away from the GMO's in that...now to work on the dogs and chickens! And ME!!!:shocked:


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

haypoint said:


> Yup, lots of corn in dog and chicken feed. You should have good access to oats in your area.


Not really...surprisingly oats are out of stock a lot. This is corn and soybean area only. With some hay. I never looked at the coops though for buying oats since I never really needed it before. Maybe it will be a different story there than at the regular feed store. I'll check it out!


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

Yarrow, you don't really HAVE to cut out soda to stop bringing HFCS into the house... All the "throwback" products that Pepsi makes are made with real sugar (cane or beet? Website doesn't specify)... Sierra Mist is also a sugar product instead of HFCS. Do you have Jones Soda in your area? It's some of the yummiest soda around, and their whole line of original flavors is made using pure cane sugar. (The zero calorie "zilch" soda uses sucralose, not sugar).


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

This is the response I got from Taste of the Wild

Dear Michelle, 

Thank you for your inquiry. We do our best to obtain non-GMO canola. However, some people consider all canola to be GMO since the plant originally was modified to produce the quality oil that it currently produces. This happened many, many years ago and was a product of selective breeding of the best plants. The oil that we use is naturally preserved and is a quality source of omega fatty acids and energy in the diet.

Sorry ...I know this part is about dog food and not goat food...but I think the more info we have about ALL food the better so I'm sharing it all.

Thoughts???


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

I was going to say that Canola in and of itself is a GMO product. The plants were originally modified from the Rapeseed plant to produce a non-toxic oil. (Rapeseed, the unmodified kind, produces lots of oil, but the oil has a poisonous alkaline in it. Canola is a modified plant where the ability to produce the alkaloid has been removed.)


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Not true about beet sugar or corn/soybean oil. It IS GMO and it does go through the processing. 

Today I got my goats on Timothy pellets and Oats. The local feed store owner is ordering my some Linseed meal to try. Higher protein and high in selenium. If it's a reasonable price I will try it if not I'm ok with the Timothy and Oats. My bunny is now on it too. My chickens are on oats and barley now along with kitchen scraps. 

I'm not sure what to do about my parrot though. He currently is on Mazuri pellets but I need to change that.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Minelson said:


> I just sent an email to Taste of the Wild. I was thrilled to see no corn or soy on the package but then had canola oil in the ingredients. ugh. That was one of the items warned about in the video. So I asked them if there was any way they could assure me it is non GMO canola oil or I'm going to have to switch to another food.
> My dog Boris is on antibiotics for a puncture wound...I gave him the pill in peanut butter. Turned the jar around and read the ingredients......eeee gads!!!!! into the garbage it went. This is hard!!


Because canola oil has no protein in it, there is no trace of the ll, or rr gene, as it is a protein. There is no protein in the oil. So don't worry, canola oil is gm free.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Minelson said:


> This is the response I got from Taste of the Wild
> 
> Dear Michelle,
> 
> ...


Canola was bred naturally with no genetic atlerations to select for low erucic acid, low glucosinolate plants. Canola was not created using any manipulation, other than selective breeding.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

CaliannG said:


> I was going to say that Canola in and of itself is a GMO product. The plants were originally modified from the Rapeseed plant to produce a non-toxic oil. (Rapeseed, the unmodified kind, produces lots of oil, but the oil has a poisonous alkaline in it. Canola is a modified plant where the ability to produce the alkaloid has been removed.)


Canola was NOT modified from rapeseed. It was bred to lower the poor qualities of the rapeseed plant, namely erucic acid, and glucosinolates. Canola oil is among the healthiest oils known to man, with HALF the saturated fat of olive oil. It was not created using genetic alterations, but plants with the better oil qualities were selected over time...


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Thank you...it's very confusing for my unscientific brain. I think I opened a can of worms for myself and need to sleep on it 
Love the info though!!!!!!! Thank you all


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

haypoint said:


> Nope.
> http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/afcm/canola.html
> 
> While nearly all Canola production is GMO, that would be Roundup Ready, the actual difference between rapeseed and canola wasn't done by genetic manipulation, more like natural selection.
> But the protein that has been manipulated to resist Roundup isn't found in the oil from the Canola plant.


Canola can be conventional, roundup ready, liberty link, pursuit smart, etc. There are many choices in the crop. You are 100% correct in saying that because the modified gene is a protein, it is therefore not found in the oil at all.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

haypoint said:


> We are the fattest population in the world and exercise the least.


I didn't get to see the video, since I have satellite and when I looked at that hour and a half, I thought, "Do I want to see this, or be able to listen to music for the rest of the month?"

However, I pretty much agree with everything you have stated except the above. In truth, the Naurunese are the fattest population in the world. The United States actually ranks 9th in obesity.

Now, if you wish to say we're the most obese population in the *developed* world, then you would be correct.


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

You are correct California failed to pass the labeling law. But why was that? It's because the companies that don't want you to know what you're eating launched multi million dollar ad campaigns against it and told everyone their grocery prices would go up. Which is false. 

You are welcome to eat all the GMOs you want, for me and my family we wold rather not. Ya know when my grandma was young the tobacco companies claimed that smoking was good for you. They failed to release the studies proving that smoking was hazardous to your health. It took decades before the truth came out. But people made a choice to smoke or not. We don't have a choice to eat. But we should have a choice to know what we are eating. Why should I be forced to eat something that was invented in a lab? Even raising my own animals for meat and eggs doesn't help because they're eating it. 
If GMOs aren't bad for you then why the heck won't they just label it? Because the companies know something we don't know, that's why. Why do the companies hire the scientists to run the studies and then when the scientists realize that something is terribly wrong they get told 'shut up or you're fired'? 

Anyone can be a guinea pig if they so choose. I do not want my family or my animals to be guinea pigs however.


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## rileyjo (Feb 14, 2005)

This discussion is beginning to drift like GMO threads often do. I dont want to see it fall off the cliff.

This just a reminder that this is the Goat Forum and comments should stay relevant to how GMO's effect how we care for our goats.


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Alrighty then..back to the goats. 

I am feeding the milk girl whole oats and sunflower seeds. She gets 24/7 access to non GMO alfalfa hay. Water and loose minerals are in front of her too. Her milk tastes great..she is still giving me a quart and a half of milk every morning.

The other girl that is with her is prego..she is off grain now, but has everything else that the milker has. 

What would you all do different? I'm up for suggestions.


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## mammabooh (Sep 1, 2004)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> Alrighty then..back to the goats.
> 
> I am feeding the milk girl whole oats and sunflower seeds. She gets 24/7 access to non GMO alfalfa hay. Water and loose minerals are in front of her too. Her milk tastes great..she is still giving me a quart and a half of milk every morning.
> 
> ...


That's how I feed my girls too, except that I also give the Replamin Plus gel.


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Hey momma..do you give the Replamin and the loose minerals both? Thanks!


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> Alrighty then..back to the goats.
> 
> I am feeding the milk girl whole oats and sunflower seeds. She gets 24/7 access to non GMO alfalfa hay. Water and loose minerals are in front of her too. Her milk tastes great..she is still giving me a quart and a half of milk every morning.
> 
> ...


That is what I am feeding too...along with good grass hay. but the oats and boss are a very small amount as a treat since my goats are pets only. I do have Standlee alfalfa pellets though and I am concerned about feeding that to the goats. Right now they are not getting it because I have this beautiful organic alfalfa hay on hand...but with the drought that might not always be available. The alfalfa is used in small amounts as treat only also. My horses are getting the pellets because the bales are too rich for them.


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## mammabooh (Sep 1, 2004)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> Hey momma..do you give the Replamin and the loose minerals both? Thanks!


Yes. I have been giving the Replamin since September, but still have the Right Now Onyx out for them. They've been going through it a lot faster than normal the last few weeks. Three of the four girls are bred, so I figure they need more minerals right now. I have had goats since March of 2011 and I have about 1/4 of a bag left...this is only the second bag, so they really don't eat a lot of it.


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## JBarGFarmKeeper (Nov 1, 2011)

haypoint said:


> Dennis Kucinich, former Presidential Candidate? What election?


Yes he was. He made a bid for the democrat party nomination in the 2008 election.


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## rileyjo (Feb 14, 2005)

Gmo crops are an important and controversial subject. It is very important have discussion about this issue.

I think people here are very capable of doing their own research and coming to their own conclusions.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> Alrighty then..back to the goats.
> 
> I am feeding the milk girl whole oats and sunflower seeds. She gets 24/7 access to non GMO alfalfa hay. Water and loose minerals are in front of her too. Her milk tastes great..she is still giving me a quart and a half of milk every morning.
> 
> ...


Actually that is what we will be doing as soon as our girls get back as well. As far as mineral, we plan to offer both in the winter when a lot of members have mentioned their goats have craved more and then just Replamin in the warmer months.

Someone mentioned linseed in another thread. I will be feeding linseed to my chickens, but I'm not sure if I would need to feed it to my goats with what they will already be getting.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

Here's a guide that could help you avoid GMOs. Notice the wiggle room in the "organic" labeling. 

http://mamanatural.com/how-to-avoid-gmos/#more-3687

After you know all that you do now, going to the grocery store will leave you feeling defeated. The good news is, you really can make most all of the processed food on the shelves at home or learn to live without it. I can spend an hour in the store wandering the aisles and leave with a buggy full of bulk items (nuts, grains) and vegetables and a head full of ideas on things to recreate from scratch. Yes-it takes lots of time but I am blessed to be able to stay home and prepare most of our food. Everything from granola to protein bars, to sauces and homemade Pop Tarts from jellies I've canned .... stuff to keep my 1st grader from feeling like at outcast. 
Look for local buying groups and co-ops in your area; we have a local organic produce distributor that sells to the public and while it doesn't save a ton of money I can buy in bulk and preserve a lot of stuff that is off season. I've also been able to buy some almost out of date things like 40# of bananas, apples and potatoes that were too far gone to ship to a store but prefect for me to can or freeze. 

For the livestock I've ordered and plan to rotate the pastures with an herbal ley from Countryside Organics. It will come back each year but I was told to sow it with annual rye for my cows. I have a wooded lots behind the house for the goats so they will browse there come spring but instead of cutting hay I plan to plant this herbal ley on every extra bit of grassy space we have. If there isn't a garden planted then this is going down and will not be cut. I have no use for a lawn, much to SO's shugrin. 

I just read in the Baker Seed catalog that it is getting very hard to find any corn that is not tainted with GMOs, so from now on corn is just no longer in the diet for humans or animals around here. I won't even bother planting it again ... we will just live without it as we do soybeans and sugar from beets.

It's a shame what we have to deal with to try to stay healthy but it is apparently the price we must pay for the sins of the past 2-3 generations. This is what happens when you hand over control of your food supply to evil - and spend more time focusing on American Idol and material possessions.


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## "SPIKE" (Dec 7, 2011)

PrettyPaisley said:


> Here's a guide that could help you avoid GMOs. Notice the wiggle room in the "organic" labeling.
> 
> http://mamanatural.com/how-to-avoid-gmos/#more-3687
> 
> ...


What about the GMO article on pages 14 and 15?
GMOs Is the end near? (reprint from Heirloom Garden Magazine)

It's a good read if you have their catalog.

SPIKE


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Yep, we just don't feed corn, soy, cottonseed, or anything from sugar beets here to animals or family. There are so many grains that are more nutritious than corn any way, that it isn't a big deal. And we have always avoided feeding or eating soy. 

As far as vegetable oils, we have been avoiding those before we knew about GMO's. We stick with oils that are either rendered from animals or can be pressed from plants. The fact that most vegetable oils can't simply be pressed and must instead go through heavy processing turned us off. I prefer a more natural food source. Anything that requires a lab and lots or processing to make it into a food-like source, is not natural.

Things like Crisco weren't even originally made to be food. Persuasive marketing was used in 1911 to convince people it was better than butter or lard.


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## "SPIKE" (Dec 7, 2011)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> Yep, we just don't feed corn, soy, cottonseed, or anything from sugar beets here to animals or family. There are so many grains that are more nutritious than corn any way, that it isn't a big deal. And we have always avoided feeding or eating soy.
> 
> As far as vegetable oils, we have been avoiding those before we knew about GMO's. We stick with oils that are either rendered from animals or can be pressed from plants. The fact that most vegetable oils can't simply be pressed and must instead go through heavy processing turned us off. I prefer a more natural food source. Anything that requires a lab and lots or processing to make it into a food-like source, is not natural.
> 
> *Things like Crisco weren't even originally made to be food*. Persuasive marketing was used in 1911 to convince people it was better than butter or lard.


Anybody that uses Crisco should research it and rethink.
And have you ever read how marjorine in made? It's like one molecule different from plastic!

Yep, give me my goat butter and pig lard. LOL 

SPIKE


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Yep, we use real butter, lard, beef tallow, olive oil, coconut oil, sunflower or peanut oil. There are enough options out there that avoiding corn, canola, soybean or other vegetable oils really isn't a hardship.


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## Ruby (May 10, 2002)

It wouldn't let me open it, it said private video.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

Hannah90 said:


> I consider myself somewhat of a GMO warrior around here. What the guy said at about 14 minutes about leaky gut made me ANGRY!
> 
> And can we talk about this* "mystery organism"??????* I mean, frankly, the first thing that came to my mind was Zombie Apocalypse. Maybe not real in the literal term, but "mystery organism" really gives me the shakes.


 
Do you watch that AMC show Walking Dead? I have to admit I got sucked into it this weekend when they had a marathon-all the episodes in order leading up to the newest one and I really liked it. (I don't like to watch tv really but it was rainy and there was nothing else to do!) Anyhow-in one part this group of survivors were discussing how these zombies turn and the guy in the know said, "We all carry it." In the show the CDC finds out we all have the "it" that turns anyone who dies into a "walker". I couldn't help but think about this mystery organism when I saw that episode. :shocked:


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> Yep, we use real butter, lard, beef tallow, olive oil, coconut oil, sunflower or peanut oil. There are enough options out there that avoiding corn, canola, soybean or other vegetable oils really isn't a hardship.


And you know what is crazy? It's not that hard to find pastured pork/beef and buy leaf lard from the farmer-and render it yourself in the kitchen. I had no idea ... and anytime I need to get the girls to eat something they are not crazy about I just cook it up in lard and they gobble it down! :clap:


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## Bay Mare (Jun 7, 2007)

Ruby said:


> It wouldn't let me open it, it said private video.


 
Me too. I started watching yesterday and got to see the first 15 min when something came up and I had to stop. I went back today to continue and now I can not access it.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

PrettyPaisley said:


> And you know what is crazy? It's not that hard to find pastured pork/beef and buy leaf lard from the farmer-and render it yourself in the kitchen. I had no idea ... and anytime I need to get the girls to eat something they are not crazy about I just cook it up in lard and they gobble it down! :clap:


*http://agr.wa.gov/foodanimal/animalfeed/Publications/ProhibMatDefs.pdf*​ 
Tallow with more than 0.15% insoluble impurities is illegal to feed to goats and cows. I think it is because of that Mad Cow thing.


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

haypoint said:


> *http://agr.wa.gov/foodanimal/animalfeed/Publications/ProhibMatDefs.pdf*​
> Tallow with more than 0.15% insoluble impurities is illegal to feed to goats and cows. I think it is because of that Mad Cow thing.


I could be wrong..but I'm pretty sure she meant her 2 legged kids.


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Yep Shannon is talking about her children not her goats.

I will be buying some peanut oil for my does to give them extra fat.

For those that can't open it google Genetic Roulette or do a YouTube search.


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