# Owners who ruin horses ... major rant ... long



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I need to rant and can only do it on this board, because it's the only one I know of with sensible people! :hair 

Many of you may remember when I posted about the 8 year old large pony gelding I bought back from the owner who was no longer able to keep him and ride/work him because of a neck injury. She'd bought him as a weanling as her 'last pony' ... something she'd wanted since her last horse as a teenager.

What riding she did was bareback, with a halter, at a walk and trot. She spent hours and hours with him, teaching him to do tricks, carrying a cane, blowing whistles and tooting horns, picking up things off the ground. She also taught him to rear up. She also trained him ... exclusively I believe ... with treats. She walked around with a pocketful of treats and everything he did she stuffed a treat in his mouth.

He knew absolutely nothing useful. I was concerned about the rearing, knew he would have to be re-educated about treats and knew that he could become a liability in the wrong hands with the wrong people.

Without a treat shoved in his mouth every time you reached for him, he got progressively more 'nippy' and more demanding. We worked with him several months until you could finally scratch along his neck and jaw without him reaching for you and try to nip/bite when there was no treat. 

With breeding season, I mostly quit working with him as we were planning to have him be a project for DH with the tricks. He was starting to drop a little too much weight (he arrived substantially overweight) so a couple of weeks ago I started giving him a little grain and a scoop of alfalfa pellets once a day. He started laying back his ears, then acting like he wanted to bite as soon as I leaned over (outside his pen) to pour the feed in his pan, which I shoved under the rail. Then he started reaching for me. If I was watching him, he would stay back, when I leaned over he'd reach and make a serious effort to bite. It continued to escalate until yesterday, with my depth perception, I got a little too close to the fence when I leaned over to get the pan and he got my cap and a small tuft of my hair. If I'd been closer, without a cap, I suspect I'd have required stitches.

DH and I discussed it, taking into consideration the fact that both of us are older, slower and not able to put in the hours he would need to even determine if he could be rehabilitated or not. He would need to be started under saddle, given a job that required several hours of work a day (like on a ranch during spring calving) and then re-evaluated. I suspect, with the habits established for 8 years, the chances of him being reliably re-trained would be minimal. Given the fact that we can't do it, I don't know anyone locally that could do it ... and that most of the people, including children, that do come here are not 'horse savvy' and the fact I don't know that he wouldn't try to savage anyone that got too close ... we made the decision to put him down and avoid the liability.

I hate being forced to make this decision.  It was not the gelding's fault. The owner spent* 8 years* teaching him that he was the boss, that he didn't have to do anything he didn't want to and he got treats whenever he asked for them ... instantly on demand.

He should have had a long and productive life as a hunter pony or eventing pony, teaching young riders how to ride safely and boldly over fences. That is what he was bred for and even as a weanling it was obvious that he was eager to learn and would be a talented athlete. Eight years of incredibly stupid handling made that impossible ... such a waste ...

I couldn't get fond of him because of his attitude, the tears are because it didn't have to happen.


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## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

I'm so very very sorry 
for you and the gelding ... that sucks


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

My buddy Larry and I bought a horse out of a kill pen once (I know, I know, but we also made good money rehabbing killers). Beautiful QH/TB cross gelding, about 16 hands, had supposedly been ridden for traffic control, etc. can't remember the age, but had good years in front of him. 

Brought him home, saddled him up. Seemed to have good manners on the ground. stepped aboard and rode him in the sand pit, everything still good. Decided to go for a ride in the woods. He decided to buck a little. No big deal, he really wasn't very good at it, and I checked him out of it. Got into the trees and since he just learned he couldn't buffalo me by bucking so straight over backwards he goes. Now this is no fun but I was ready for it, stepped off, and threw myself across his head. Now I had him pinned to the ground and I was content to keep him there for a spell. We had a good long talk and he decided to quit struggling and by and by I allowed him to get up. 

Now this is the point that 99% of these types adjust their thinking. Well, this guy adjusted his thinking alright................

I stepped back on and we went about 100 yards and up he goes again. This time he has me up against a couple of poplar trees on my left side so I have to go right, no big deal I always work both sides of a horse so the muscle memory is there to bail right but........ as he reaches the top of the ark he made a very credible attempt kill me. He flopped over to the right (still among heavy trees mind you) and only because I was able to get my left foot on top of the saddle was I able to push off and avoid getting squashed like a large fat bug. Still, it wasn't as agile a landing as the first one. In the brammbles, him kicking up a storm, and my right foot still in the stirrup. 

Luckily was able to disengage with no serious damage. 

I realized that at this point that we could never in good consciousness sell him to anyone. I walked him back to the barn and he was in the kill pen again at the next sale.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

I'm so sorry. You know you are doing the right thing, although it probably doesn't help how you feel.

I just talked with someone who got their first horse last year (older, already trained), then decided to get a colt to have trained for them. Said colt is of a rather pricey breed, and is 18 months old, and has to be lunged for 20 minutes to wear him out enough just to do a foot trim, and it's still a battle.

I don't own any horses but even I know that 18 months is way too old to still be having issues with simple foot trims. This person boards, and I don't know anything about who bred the colt or trained him, but someone didn't do their job, and now the new owner is paying the price, but doesn't seem to think there is anything unusual about it.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

I am sorry you are having to go through this SFM. I ran into this a lot when rehabbing Icelandic Horses.
A lot of them where ruined, not safe to be around normal horse people. 

There where times with this mare, I didn't know if I would get through to her, that acting aggressive towards people like she had been doing for many, many years won't work with me. Luckily the tricks under saddle aren't too bad. Like you, at my age and health, lets just say if she was any worse I would of put her down.
But a couple of days ago... she seemed to get the idea, I am boss on the ground and In the saddle and no matter what she tries to do, I will work her backside off, if she doesn't do what I ask.
She loves doing things, loves going out... but you do have to be... Viking .. about it. She has turned into a pretty sweet horse 99% of the time.
This is my last rehab horse. Body just can't deal with these kinds of horses any more. 

Tinknal, glad you weren't hurt with that one. 

Was hoping your guy could be turned around SFM. ((hugs)) to you, you are doing what is best.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

We've retrained plenty that were that bad or worse. The problem was they would act perfect at our farm and then when we sold them they'd revert back to their previous habits the instant someone let them. We got a mare just like that gelding who had been fed anything and everything as a treat constantly all day and treated as a big pocket pet. Within 6months we had no problems with her. 3 years later we sold her. Our farrier got called out to trim her 4months later and couldn't touch the mare. She bit, kicked, laid down when her foot was finally picked up, threw herself around, refused to stand tied.... The only difference the farrier could find was that the lady who bought the mare tried to bribe her in to everything and handed out treats constantly. The mare was never disciplined for anything she did while the farrier was there and just kept getting petted and asked to calm down while they stuffed grain, slices of bread, and apples in to her mouth. We decided not to buy such horses again not because we couldn't retrain them but because we could never sell them with confidence to anyone. No matter how long we kept them without any bad behavior if the person didn't keep handling them properly the old habits would return within the year if not a few months.


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

So sorry to hear it. It is always a sad decision, but especially so when it is one you bred that was sound, beautiful and willing as a baby... Not a thing wrong, and a lot right. That is one of the most heartbreaking things a breeder can encounter from the horses they produce. So very sorry... :grouphug:


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## chewie (Jun 9, 2008)

sad indeed but you may have just saved someone from a serious injury, so as rotten as this is, good for you!!

knew a gal who thought that it was very cute that her colt would rear up onto her shoulders. ([email protected]) she thought it was funny until this colt was now a 16+ hand gelding who'd still rear at her, and other horrible disrespectful things. sent to trainers, he was great. another person bought him, had no issues--this horse knew she could be bullied and made full use of it. 

she also thought it 'cute' when her herd (overcrowded) would rush up to be grained. (they were all fat and horrible ground manners, no grain was really needed anyhow). I was very preggers at the time and got rammed into the dirt by her favorite old mare. she laughed so hard, thought it very funny. i've been around horses all my life, and I was scared for my baby and my health, it was that danergous. i was done hanging out with her and her horses!


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## Stonybrook (Sep 22, 2007)

I think that is the one of the problems with rehabbing horses. You have to find ones that you will be able to rehome to competent people or you have to rehome to people who are consistently working with a competent trainer. I think I would almost rather have one that hasn't been handled much than one that has long term been handled incorrectly and been allowed to be disrespectful about personal space. 

You were in a spot with few good choices SFM, and you made the right one. He would have tried everyone after you for a weak spot and taken advantage of it.


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

I've run into the other side.
No reasonable control ( so they beat the crap out of it in crossties!)
Achh!

There's only one better way to ruin a horse than to spoil it.
Teach it that no matter whether they understand. they are going to be beaten.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Stonybrook said:


> I I think I would almost rather have one that hasn't been handled much than one that has long term been handled incorrectly and been allowed to be disrespectful about personal space.


Absolutely!

When we were buying horses to train and sell our favorite was any 3 yo stud that had never been touched. We would bring him home, whack off his knackers, and by the time he healed up he had manners and a good start under saddle.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

That sucks. I'm sorry, but I believe you did the right thing.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

So sorry about the pony. I do agree that it was the right thing to do though.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Im conflicted as I dont have a save it all mentality but do believe from what I read its a matter of teaching him the proper place on the pecking order. I would be interested to know how he is/was with other horses. I know I couldnt do it right now or I would have already brought that other pony you have down here, Im so friggin pregnant right now I cant barely handle my goats. 
I still would have liked to have a hour with him even though i know its not practical and wont happen, its better for him in the state of everyone being too horse poor for him to be burried than to be abused or neglected or worse yet injure someone. I know its not an easy thing to choose but as I am famous for saying theres a great deal more things in life that are worse than death. 

And yet my mind wonders does he respect a whip or would he, could you not put the pan in the center of the pen and drive him off until he surrenders. Ive solved similar problems by doing that, you eat when I say you can, you drink when I say you can, cant say that its exactly a safe thing to do with one like this and I can understand, yet the mind wonders on....


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

> There's only one better way to ruin a horse than to spoil it.
> Teach it that no matter whether they understand. they are going to be beaten.


These are the ones we've come across that usually have a rearing problem. They've been beat or jerked on so much they pop up at the slightest provocation and some have learned to go over. Under normal circumstances falling over is usually enough to stop rearing, I do controlled falls on soft ground with all our weanlings to discourage future attempts at rearing, but when the other option is being beat across the head and neck or your mouth jerked on with no chance to stop it then flopping over backward seems like a good solution. We've gotten some unpredictable amish raised horses who had that mentality and were hard to rehabilitate. Some went to slaughter. A group of arabians particularly comes to mind. They weren't quite right in the head after being beat with various objects and jerked on. They had to be locked up in electric fence lined stalls to prevent them running through fences and climbing the sides of the stalls at every little bit of movement. After a month my grandma deemed them too dangerous except the weanling who had barely been handled and decided it best to have them put down on the spot.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Cannon_Farms said:


> And yet my mind wonders does he respect a whip or would he, could you not put the pan in the center of the pen and drive him off until he surrenders.


I think it could have been done, I could have forced him to respect a whip. if I were 20 years younger and did not have vision impairment that limits my vision on one side and affects my stability and depth perception. My husband probably could have done it as well ... if he were 20 (maybe 30, he's 10 years older than I am) years younger.

If I was still in Montana where I had access to young, quick, experienced cowboys with a lot of work to do horseback, I would not have been concerned about turning him over to one of them for 3 months. Then I could evaluate his attitude after he learned to work for a living because the alternative was unpleasant rather than doing something when and if he wanted to and got a treat.

The other issue that concerned me with this gelding is that he was a pony and under almost any circumstances (other than on a cattle ranch in Montana) would be around children likely to be inexperienced or careless is that a bite like he attempted/ nearly succeeded with me could do serious damage. We have young, non-horse experienced grandchildren with non-horse oriented parents. With what I feel was a serious sneak attempt at me, after we had (I thought) reached an understanding that biting was not acceptable, was simply a risk neither of us were willing to accept.

I never, ever hand feed any of my horses. When my Connemara stallion went out for training, I stressed this to the trainer, but she had teenage barn help that obviously did hand feed him to the point where when he returned to me he had made a *game* out of "reach for the shoulder and duck back before the hand hits my nose". He had absolutely never offered to even be 'mouthy' even as a foal or weanling, it was something that was developed in the months he was gone. DH and I both suckered him into reaching for us when he didn't think he were really looking and both of us managed to really correct him efficiently. It took just once from each of us and he's never once offered to do it again, to anyone, not even a suggestion he might think about it.

This gelding never had that foundation, he was unfortunately taught that treats were available on demand. The lack of treats produced aggressive behavior that took 3 or 4 months to really curb but it became obvious that the re-training wasn't really solid. I don't think I would ever have been comfortable letting him go on to another owner. That kind of risk, for us, just wasn't acceptable.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

SFM, I'm sorry it's gotten to that point but the way I see it, if we sell a horse, our reputation rides on every horse that leaves our place and the last thing we want to hear is that a horse we felt was iffy harmed someone. It's never an easy decision but given the circumstances, I think you made the right one.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

It comes from the pc dog training mentality of positive reinforcement, I believe. People don't understand heirarchy and the fact that every social creature is submissive to someone unless the leader and dominant to someone unless at the bottom of the pecking order. It is the natural way of things, how they were created. With dogs, most have a natural respect for humans- we're just awesome-- which is why people get away with only positive reinforcement without getting hurt- much of the time - until you get into bolder breeds which now have a bad reputation because they end up hurting and killing people without correct training which includes negative reinforcement. Horses usually are not that way,'they need it proven to them that you've got it figured out and you're boss. Too bad people don't know that.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

Hmmm, sounds like you should find him a new home, transfer the liability to someone who has the time, patience, physical ability, and self-discipline to be consistent. We are that type of people, who got a 6 yr old RUINED DOG. In one year, that dog made nothing short of an incredible turn around. He is a great watchdog, stays home on our property without a fence (not even invisible), even stayed her for 3 days when we went camping. Why? We told him to, trained him to, and he knows when we tell him "stay home and guard the critters," that this is his job. The folks who came down to feed him, our outdoor cats, our chickens, and our piglets, were flat amazed "Sam" stayed home. Everyone tells us what a great dog he is, yet little do they know, how abused he was, neurotic, and "hopeless" he was when we got him. Good thing we didn't believe that!

Horses? Okay...

Grandparents got numerous "ruined" ponies and horses. I was one of the grandchildren who helped straighten them out. I will remember "Blaze" the incredible race horse, retired when they got him, absolutely a blast to ride. In a short period of time, all of us grandchildren could ride him. However, give him a good rider, let him know it, and you got the ride of your life! Since he was used for jumping and racing, I had a blast testing his limits. Blaze was the happiest when he was "showing off" what he could do. You just leaned forward and told him softly, go Blaze, then hold on tight... He was a great horse!

That "pony gelding?" He has been trained and is used to doing what he was trained to do. I don't believe he can't be worked with. We have chosen not to have horses, due to expense, and lack of work for them to do. On our property, every single critter has a job. None are just "pets." They are happy, no matter where they came from (we adopted the 2 female cats, too), now they are Christie Critters  Oh, yes, I also had to re-train the cats, but at least they didn't come to us abused.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

SFM, I totally understand and cant say in the same circumstances I wouldnt be doing the same thing you are, hope you didnt misunderstand or I wasnt clear my mind just goes to the what ifs and could bes even if they are shouldnt bes..

Too many good horses go without to be putting up with a bratt.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

_


wr said:



--- if we sell a horse, our reputation rides on every horse that leaves our place and the last thing we want to hear is that a horse we felt was iffy harmed someone.

Click to expand...

_This is one of the things that was a major consideration in making the decision I did. Yes, I paid $500 to buy him back. I don't like losing that, but from a purely practical viewpoint, he could do a whole lot more than $500 damage to the reputation for my horses and ponies that I have worked very hard for more than 20 years to establish.

_


Cannon_Farms said:



SFM, I totally understand and cant say in the same circumstances I wouldnt be doing the same thing you are, hope you didnt misunderstand or I wasnt clear ...

Click to expand...

_Didn't misunderstand ... 20 or 30 years ago, when I was on the ranch and had a job for him to do where he'd have spent a lot of time as a working ranch horse with lots of wet saddleblankets coming off him the option would have been different.

At 70 and 82, we just aren't willing ... can't ... risk injury that would mean we could not provide adequate care for the other horses we are responsible for. We are also unwilling to ask that someone else take on the responsibility for possible injury to themselves or an innocent bystander. I feel that even though I was not personally responsible for the *training* that made him a liability I was the breeder and knowing he was a liability made him my responsibility.

Again, I would look at the options differently if I still had access to young, experienced cowboy types who have grown up dealing with difficult horses. I would also feel differently about placing a supposed-to-be rehabilitated horse with a family whose children have grown up working around horses that may not be trustworthy.

Unfortunately for both the gelding and myself, I don't have that option now. The chances of his getting into an environment where it would be likely that he would be exposed again to people, particularly children, that would trigger a reversion to his anti-social habits were too high for me to feel it was an acceptable risk.


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## CheerfulMom4 (May 21, 2008)

southerngurl said:


> It comes from the pc dog training mentality of positive reinforcement, I believe. People don't understand heirarchy and the fact that every social creature is submissive to someone unless the leader and dominant to someone unless at the bottom of the pecking order. It is the natural way of things, how they were created. With dogs, most have a natural respect for humans- we're just awesome-- which is why people get away with only positive reinforcement without getting hurt- much of the time - until you get into bolder breeds which now have a bad reputation because they end up hurting and killing people without correct training which includes negative reinforcement. Horses usually are not that way,'they need it proven to them that you've got it figured out and you're boss. Too bad people don't know that.


You know, I think this is how we ruined our australian sheperd. We did everything "right" with this dog. He was an agility dog and my son even took him to the fair. He had a dominant personality and was protective but was good to our family.

Until the day my son dropped his pop tart on the floor. Son told the dog No and the dog jumped up and bit him on the face. It was SO uncalled for, I could have understood more if my son had even bent down to the dogs level but the dog jumped for his face.

I couldn't figure out what went wrong, I've raised border collies and other strong personality dogs with no trouble. In thinking about it I think it was the constant treats he recieved from the moment we got him. Our other dogs were given treats occasionally but not to the same extreme. 

My daughters dog has a sweet personality to begin with and it hasn't effected him that way. I think in his mind instead of the kids training him for agility he had trained them. "I go through the tunnel, you give me a treat, good kid." I don't even know why I think that really, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me.

In the end we gave him to someone who really wanted him and who had no children. They were fully aware of this issue, I've thought of him often and thought he probably should have been put down. Maybe with the right people he could change his attitude.

Thank you for being responsible SFM.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

lorichristie said:


> Hmmm, sounds like you should find him a new home, transfer the liability to someone who has the time, patience, physical ability, and self-discipline to be consistent. We are that type of people, who got a 6 yr old RUINED DOG. In one year, that dog made nothing short of an incredible turn around. He is a great watchdog, stays home on our property without a fence (not even invisible), even stayed her for 3 days when we went camping. Why? We told him to, trained him to, and he knows when we tell him "stay home and guard the critters," that this is his job. The folks who came down to feed him, our outdoor cats, our chickens, and our piglets, were flat amazed "Sam" stayed home. Everyone tells us what a great dog he is, yet little do they know, how abused he was, neurotic, and "hopeless" he was when we got him. Good thing we didn't believe that!
> 
> Horses? Okay...
> 
> ...


There is a huge difference between a 60 lb dog and a 800 lb pony. I wouldn't have sold the pony on to anyone either- I would have sold it directly to the kill buyer or put it down. You can't "sell" or "give away" liability on an animal that you absolutely know will hurt someone, it's simply unethical. This pony is a prime example of why the slaughter ban should be lifted.


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## dbarjacres (Feb 2, 2004)

I think what you did was responsible. 

I posted last week about the overheight 2 y.o. mini horse I just bought. He's very mouthy. They fed him all sorts of stuff - crackers, treats, grain, etc. - from their hands. (I had the bad horse accident last year, so....) Friday I got home from work and my DH had gone and picked up "Freebird". Well, he was hyper, bitey, turned his rear towards me, etc. I thought, OMG, what did I do!? I smacked him with the buggy whip I had (use that to keep the steer away from my grain pail). He's had no treats, grain, etc. since I got him and it took two days for him to behave much better. Last night he didn't lip me at all. This was from a young inexperienced horse family that owned him for 5 months.

As CheerfulMom4 compared her dog, I can compare my Miniature American Shepherd (mini Aussie) pup, who's almost 7 months. He is absolutly psychotic about food. He is the 22 lb equivalent to SFM's pony. We always treat our dogs, but we saw what his food issue was by 3 months of age and he never gets people food, gets completely restrained when getting his daily snack between meals. He jumps up and will bite, HARD, your entire hand. I can only imagine if he had a child in the family to get food from. He would be dangerous. We can take his food away from him and he's not aggressive, just nuts when he gets his food. We don't know what to do about it even.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I had the same issues occasionally during the 20 years I raised and showed Rottweilers. I think in those 20 years I ended up with two dogs coming back that could not be rehabilitated safely and it was always an issue with the owners. 

One dog I remember particularly came back from a situation where he'd been kept on a chain (against my contract conditions) near a school and from the time he was a puppy until I got him back at just over a year old he had been teased by kids throwing rocks and sticks at him. For obvious reason he hated children and it would never have been safe to place him with anyone.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

It should also be pointed out that if SFM were to sell or give away this pony and someone were injured, she could very likely end up on the receiving end of a lawsuit. 

I stand pretty firm on this one. If it's not safe to be in my pasture, it's not safe to be on somebody else's. I don't feel comfortable passing my problems onto somebody else. My family has actually eaten some pretty fancy bovine genetics for the very same reason.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

wr said:


> If it's not safe to be in my pasture, it's not safe to be on somebody else's.


This is pretty much a short, well defined statement of my mindset. 

If I'm uncomfortable and don't feel safe with a particular animal, I'm not sending it out to someone else and put them at risk.


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

If you donated him to a zoo (for carnivore food) could you write off your loss? Trying very hard to find a silver lining here...


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

eggzackly said:


> If you donated him to a zoo (for carnivore food) could you write off your loss? Trying very hard to find a silver lining here...


Nothing close enough to be practical.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

What a hard choice to have to make..but it sounds like the RIGHT one...

There is a RIGHT way and a WRONG way to train with food rewards..and the owner of the pony in question from what it sounds like..was wrong wrong wrong wrong.

We've talked about this before on this forum..many know I do do tricks with my pony..I also do agility with my dogs and taught my one dog to paint using posative rein. (food rewards with a clicker)

There is a VERY fine line, when using treats in training, between creating a monster and a respectful creature. Every resource I studied before I ventured into clicker-ism STRESSED how respect was important BEFORE you started food rewards..and that any sign of nippiness or grabbys should be dealt with swiftly..(how you decided to deal with it was up to the individual animal..some you can ignore..some need a "nose flick" as I call it)

To many people, as the owner did, shove treats in the mouthes constantly..for the animal doing NOTHING..or because the animal "asks" for a treat...All my critters live by NILIF- nothing in life is free.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

I am sorry. I think it would be impossible not to be a bit sad and disappointed in your situation. I wish you peace with your decision.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

I'm sorry you (and the pony) were put in that situation, Sharon. I'd have done the same thing. Too many good horses out there to take the chance on someone getting hurt with a 'bad' one.

<<<hugs>>>


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

Given the circumstances, without someone who would legally take the pony and also take on the liability, I don't think it is wrong to put an animal down. Locally, folks do that. Sorry there aren't any there. Brought me back to remembering the "rejects" my grandparents got. Of course, the entire Country wasn't so "sue happy" back then, either. 

We do what we have to do. Our "favorite rooster" was very rough with his girls, killed one, and bye bye rooster.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

lorichristie said:


> Brought me back to remembering the "rejects" my grandparents got. Of course, the entire Country wasn't so "sue happy" back then, either. We do what we have to do.


I kept myself in horses to ride all through my 20s (when I couldn't afford to keep my own) by schooling/exercising and retraining horses for other people. I rode horses then, without even thinking about it that I wouldn't walk into the corral with now, 40 years later.

I've also bought a lot of horses out of the auction rings that were there because someone thought they had some kind of a problem. Some did, some didn't but very few of them didn't go on to be useful animals for someone.

Circumstances change. You get older and slower. Your reflexes aren't as good. You know, from experience, that you break easier and heal slower. You have 20 other ponies/horses to feed and take care of. I guess I just resent this situation so bitterly because I know the breeding on this gelding, remember him as a weanling ... smart, alert, ready and willing to learn anything you wanted to teach him ... and thinking what a waste of a life it was.


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## RLStewart (Sep 10, 2006)

Sorry about the pony. That is really rough. I love ponies but alot of them are too smart for their own good. It sounds like he was one that would have needed alot of long term, atitude adjustment type work and then still would have been looking for a chance to be bad. Too bad you are so far away or I would volunteer to take a few rounds out of him to see if it helped. I've had good luck with working with snotty ponies in the roundpen until they yell Uncle. So often though they do revert if you can't teach the people around them how to be dominant. Its funny because I'm a very quiet, laid-back person but I guess I was just born knowing how to come out on top with horses. Always suprises people. Also always suprises me how fast horses can be untrained by clueless people.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

I once sold a horse to a family member that was a complete beginner. He was perfect for the family. They soon discovered galloping was fun and would get on and kick him into a gallop. It started out with him getting a little obnoxious if you didn't let him start out at a run. They gave in so he got worse. By the time they sold/gave him away? he would have a complete fit if you did let him run. He would barely give you time to get your stirrups. There was no getting on and getting settled or standing quietly. 

They never understood why he started acting like that and blamed the horse.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I'm so sorry you had to make this hard decision. I will have to admit my first thought was if there was a reasonable way to get him to my daughter's ranch, where everyone could handle him and he would work his butt off, he could be saved. But the kids have friends who don't have the skills, they have friends with small kids and there are small kids in the extended family. You made the right choice.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

wr said:


> ......
> I stand pretty firm on this one. If it's not safe to be in my pasture, it's not safe to be on somebody else's. ....


That's how I dealt with dogs that didn't work out in my dog breeding days. I figured I knew what I was doing, if I had a serious problem with a dog, I knew how it was raised, etc, who would do better with it? I put down several otherwise lovely dogs that weren't up to my standard for breeding or living with. It was hard, but that's what seemed right to me. 

As for positive reinforcement (esp. clicker training with treats), I worked with a talented trainer that showed me how she taught a dog that he never got the treat EXCEPT he was respectful. She'd offer a treat to a pup and when he longed for it or grabbed for it, she just closed her hand until he backed off and sat down, then she gave it to him. In no time at all the pups were all offering good manners to get their treats. She taught a lot of "leave it" and self control as part of her reinforcement training.


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## Chief Cook (Apr 24, 2011)

SFM so so sorry to hear about your loss. I know that you put a lot of your heart and energy into that little horse. My heart hurts for you. Some people just think a horse is like a big dog, and their dogs are not very good to be around either.
It is so hard to realize that we do get to a point where we can't do the things we used to do. I would never get on a zipped up race horse now, even though I did as a kid. HAHA. Of course I have heard we are supposed to gain in wisdom as we age.
Again, I am sorry to hear about your pony. You did the right thing.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

So sorry to hear about your pony, how sad for him that he was trained so poorly and for so long.

I always have said that any idiot can ruin a good horse. I've watched several over the years in my career as a farrier. One lady had a "rescue" filly who was, at first, quite shy and intimidated by humans. Over about a year's time the filly turned into a monster who pinned her ears and bared her teeth to anyone walking by her stall. Her owner would dump her grain and walk away, rewarding the threats to bite. I warned the owner that the filly was crossing the line of manners, but she assured me that she only treated her horses with kindness, never hitting them - especially this filly who she claimed had been abused. Coddling without discipline and boundaries creates a dangerous animal. I eventually stopped working for her because I could see the writing on the wall, and I wasn't interested in becoming that filly's lunch someday.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

_


Molly Mckee said:



I will have to admit my first thought was if there was a reasonable way to get him to my daughter's ranch, where everyone could handle him and he would work his butt off, he could be saved. But the kids have friends who don't have the skills, they have friends with small kids and there are small kids in the extended family.

Click to expand...

_If I still lived out there and could have found a ranch cowboy who had lots of work to do horseback, with no kids around that weren't horse 'savvy' I might have tried it. But there's just no way it could happen here and I still don't know if I'd have wanted to risk it. The 'pony' was 14.2 and 800# ... big enough to do a lot of damage.

_


malinda said:



Over about a year's time the filly turned into a monster who pinned her ears and bared her teeth to anyone walking by her stall.

Click to expand...

_
This is exactly what he was doing. By the end of the first three months when both DH and I were working with him consistently, he was okay with us walking up, petting him, scratching ... and he had quit trying to nip. But when I got busy with the other work and the only thing I was doing was graining him, he got to the place ... in less than 3 weeks ... where he was lunging over the fence at me. If DH was standing there watching, he wouldn't do it ... if I was alone he would. He was obviously aware that this was something he should not do and if he would do it with me when the "boss" wasn't standing there all too likely he would do it with others, if there wasn't constant reinforcement from everyone that handled him.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

DaniR1968 said:


> I once sold a horse to a family member that was a complete beginner. He was perfect for the family. They soon discovered galloping was fun and would get on and kick him into a gallop. It started out with him getting a little obnoxious if you didn't let him start out at a run. They gave in so he got worse. By the time they sold/gave him away? he would have a complete fit if you did let him run. He would barely give you time to get your stirrups. There was no getting on and getting settled or standing quietly.
> 
> They never understood why he started acting like that and blamed the horse.


Similar situation..sold a VERY nice, quiet paint mare to a family..they soon discovered by pulling back hard on her mouth and wamping on her sides, she would rear alittle..they think this is cool, keep "Working at it" and finally get a semi tall rear out of mare..I tell them for all that is holy, dont do this..they dont listen..mare turned into a flipper and she ended up going to the canner last I heard..as she "couldnt be trusted"...


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

Doncha just sorta feel like putting a metal bar in their mouth and whipping the backs of their legs and jerking them over backwards just a FEW times, so they can get a clue? That's a crying shame.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Two things I ALWAYS tell a new buyer ... not that they listen, but I do tell them ... never, ever hand feed treats and never, ever teach a pony or horse to rear.

I will/have on occasion done both ... which I actually don't admit to in most cases ... but ONLY with certain horses, under certain circumstances ... and because I feel I know which ones you can do it with and when ... and which ones you can't.


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

I taught one to rear when I was a kid. He was a good horse and never went bad. I didn't do it very often, and never beat or jerked him. I just lifted wth my calves and seat and said Hup. and he would gently raise up a little. Sometimes the fruit on the trees was just a hair out of reach, LOL. 

I don't feed treats either. If they get somthing special it goes in their feeder. Okay, every now and then a fistful of green grass. Besides that, no.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

eggzackly said:


> I taught one to rear when I was a kid. He was a good horse and never went bad. I didn't do it very often, and never beat or jerked him. I just lifted wth my calves and seat and said Hup. and he would gently raise up a little. Sometimes the fruit on the trees was just a hair out of reach, LOL.
> 
> I don't feed treats either. If they get somthing special it goes in their feeder. Okay, every now and then a fistful of green grass. Besides that, no.


The Andalusian/TB gelding I had in Spain was the only one that I ever 'taught' to rear and it wasn't really a 'rear' but a levade. Taught in hand first, actually he was a natural. When you finished schooling and would get off to walk him into the barn, if you held the reins under his chin and just stopped moving forward, he would 'shuffle' his hind feet forward under his belly but your hand would prevent the front feet from moving. Then he would just slowly 'lift' the front quarters about 18" off the ground and fold the front legs at the knee to tuck them under. Eventually, I taught him to do it when I was still mounted and he never did go really "up", just lift and fold the forelegs under. Fun horse!


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Been a couple of days, so I'm not quite as sensitive over the situation as I was and just wanted to say it was very obvious I made the right decision.

When I went out to put a halter on him the last time ... fortunately for me, over the low gate ... he squealed and actually struck at me. Hit the gate, of course, but it definite reaffirmed my belief that this was not going to be a horse that could be rehabilitated and go on to another owner safely.

There was no reason for the behavior other than it was early in the morning and that was the time he was used to getting grained. No grain ... halter ... temper tantrum and people aggression.

I really regret that he didn't go to someone that would take advantage of his talent and trainability but I don't regret the decision to buy him back and I don't regret making the decision to put him down.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Given the hand you were dealt, you did the right thing. It's just too bad that human that caused the problem wasn't there to understand the consequences of their actions.


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

And even if you video taped his behavior and your close shaves, and him being put down, and showed it to his previous owner, she would not get it still. She would be angry at you for not stuffing him full of grain and continuing with all the "training" she put into him. Glad the gate was between you two. Glad his "last time" is passed.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

eggzackly said:


> And even if you video taped his behavior and your close shaves, and him being put down, and showed it to his previous owner, she would not get it still. She would be angry at you for not stuffing him full of grain and continuing with all the "training" she put into him. Glad the gate was between you two. Glad his "last time" is passed.


No, she would never understand. Because of her neck injury she will never have another horse (she isn't young, either) and there is absolutely no point to my letting her know what the outcome was. It would just upset her ... he was her "old age dream pony" and she certainly did not intend to train him to do all the wrong things.

At least I am getting a little more cautious in my old age. I never, ever trusted him, from the first time I watched her work him through his tricks ... total lack of respect ... and I suspected the disrespect and alpha-attitude were likely to be too well established to make it possible to re-train to the point of reliability.

At least I can know that he was never mistreated ... and he didn't go somewhere where he would hurt someone or that someone would mistreat him trying to 'beat that behavior out of him'. I have to keep telling myself he could have had a much worse life.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

SFM in KY said:


> No, she would never understand. Because of her neck injury she will never have another horse (she isn't young, either) and there is absolutely no point to my letting her know what the outcome was. It would just upset her ... he was her "old age dream pony" and she certainly did not intend to train him to do all the wrong things.
> 
> At least I am getting a little more cautious in my old age. I never, ever trusted him, from the first time I watched her work him through his tricks ... total lack of respect ... and I suspected the disrespect and alpha-attitude were likely to be too well established to make it possible to re-train to the point of reliability.
> 
> *At least I can know that he was never mistreated ... and he didn't go somewhere where he would hurt someone or that someone would mistreat him trying to 'beat that behavior out of him'. I have to keep telling myself he could have had a much worse life*.



And that is the very definition of a responsible owner.


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## bluebird2o2 (Feb 14, 2007)

You did what you had too do.i wish the people that owned the palomino that flipped over on my aunt and nearly killed her had also done the right thing too.shes still getting surgery too correct issues after all these years.


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

We have a horse that I took in as a "rescue" when a friend could no longer keep him. She paid a lot of money for him as a dressage prospect when he was 5 yrs old, then proceeded to train him sporadically, with long periods of doing nothing but feeding and watering him from outside his stall/paddock.
He's a huge, lanky thoroughbred and VERY strong. In addition to the haphazard training routine, she also went through a period of not being able to find a good fitting saddle for him, and the saddle she did have hurt him and caused some behavioral issues as a result.
Not sure why she had such a hard time fitting him, as I plopped my saddle on him and it fit just fine 
At the time that she was having so many saddle fit issues that she had stopped riding him at all, I suggested she work on long lining him to keep working on his training. She told me that he was too expensive to take a chance of him hurting himself since she didn't have long lining experience.
So, excuse after excuse after excuse, he ended up at our place 300 pounds underweight, understandly food aggressive and with horrible ground manners.
He's the first horse I have ever seen that actually looked like he was mad as heck at human beings.
We've had him for two years now. He's coming around, but it has been a long, slow process, and if I don't stay vigilent about demanding that he yield to my space on the ground, he's back to his old tricks of crowding and bullying.
I've had horses for more than 20 years now, ridden with lots of professional trainers and clinicians, and this horse has been a challenge for me. If he was any worse, I would have given up a long time ago. He's sweet and loves to be petted, and I have a soft spot in my heart for those who have ended up in the wrong hands without any choice of their own, so I committed to keeping him.

All this is to say, he has required A LOT of work in all areas. If he had ended up with someone who didn't have much horse experience, who knows what heck would have broken loose....

I won't ever take on another horse with so much baggage. But he's become a part of our family and we love the big lug, so he lucked out


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