# Disgusting treatment room at a Salt Lake VA clinic



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

This is unsanitary and dangerous, our veterans deserve better.

"One veteran's post on social media has prompted a VA clinic in Salt Lake City, Utah, to apology for the disarray and dirty conditions found at the facility. CBS affiliate KUTV writesthat Army Veteran Christopher Wilson -- who served two tours in Iraq -- was subjected to a room he couldn't believe.

He took pictures that included "debris on the floor, a full garbage can, cutting tools, a soda cup on a counter and medical kits left open.""

From: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/v...inic-room-go-viral-prompts-apology/ar-AAwwoMW


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## Prismseed (Sep 14, 2009)

It is a sad situation. The truth of the matter is many VA hospitals are overworked, understaffed, and underfunded. The fact that the man waited 45 minutes to be put in this room shows there are -many- areas in need of improvement.

In addition to funding we need creative new ideas to tackle the demand VA hospitals face.

Massachusetts has a foodstamp program that requires community service time if working less than 20 hours a week. I feel it should go national and helping the VA Hospitals like this one should be considered a high priority.

We should consider giving a tax/student financial aide or some other benefit to medical students/schools who put time in at the VA.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

they made a mistake owned it and promised to do better.
what do you want them to do?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Example of Socialized medicine.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Good point if we gave all citizens of this country the same benefits we do vets what a better place it would be.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> Example of Socialized medicine.


No, it's the VA system and it's always been substandard.


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## Prismseed (Sep 14, 2009)

AmericanStand said:


> they made a mistake owned it and promised to do better.
> what do you want them to do?


No easy answer I'm afraid.

These problems have been occurring with VA hospitals for years if not decades. The typical routine is it gets bad, media outcry, it gets fixed.

We need to dig through and find out what keeps going wrong and consider ways to fix it. If it ain't broke don't fix it; but this is obviously broken.


I think one hurdle for VA hospitals is not only do they typically serve all the veterans in a metropolis but they also serve veterans driving 2 and 3 hours for VA treatment.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> No, it's the VA system and it's always been substandard.


As are most entities run by government. Single payer, socialized, rainbows and unicorns, whatever euphemism one wants to use.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> As are most entities run by government. Single payer, socialized, rainbows and unicorns, whatever euphemism one wants to use.


Nope. The VA is self run and regulated, the US healthcare system is overseen by many outside agencies to insure proper care. I know you'd like to lump both together but it's like comparing apples and oranges, they're both fruit but that's the end of the similarity.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> The VA is self run and regulated


So the Veterans Health Administration is some extra-government entity? If that is true, I would suggest that they cease using the .gov at the end of their e-mail, It tends to confuse many.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

The VA Healthcare system is a perfect example of Socialized Medicine (for veterans). .
" *Socialized medicine* is a term used in the United States to describe and discuss systems of universal health care: medical and hospital care for all at a nominal cost by means of government regulation of health care and subsidies derived from taxation.[1] "


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> So the Veterans Health Administration is some extra-government entity? If that is true, I would suggest that they cease using the .gov at the end of their e-mail, It tends to confuse many.


It's a separate entity, and not overseen by outside healthcare regulators.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

I worked for ten years in the medical field as a biomedical electronic technician. I traveled to all the different hospitals in the area, private and public. This is not a socialized medicine problem. I worked the job during the eighties and was presen when Reagan put forth the DRG ( diagnostic retaliated group ) , this meant that the hospital got paid only so much for a procedure no matter what was involved. Patient out in a day, same amount as the patient in for ten days. As a result the first line of defense in the clinics and hospitals was shredded by layoffs, housekeeping. They could no longer keep up with the staff left behind. But the executives kept their perks, at one hospital getting to the vp level got you a leased car and golf club membership. But the rooms weren’t being cleaned properly. Aseptic technique is weak known and not hard to practice with the proper staffing levels. Cut the big wigs and save a ton of money for the jobs that must be done. Never seen a vp or managing director scrubbing anything that mattered besides their own reputation.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> No, it's the VA system and it's always been substandard.


Doc has been to several VA clinics. Out of three, one was questionable due to proficiency of staff not housekeeping. The service at Pittsburgh and surgery at Baltimore was excellent. I can vouch for the excellent service at Pittsburgh. FWIW, the Pittsburgh facility is close to the University of Pittsburgh and another large medical center. It functions as a teaching facility also. We often encounter students working with the staff.

That's not to say the staff is 100% excellent. There have been exceptions. One was a Nigerian nurse who vehemently claimed clear liquids meant water only. Another doctor had abysmal patient skills and didn't respect other doctors' diagnosis. That has been rectified.

Overall we're very pleased with the medical care we've received.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I'm kinda surprised at the number of posters that think this sort of thing is OK for the men and women that risked their lives for our country. I think they deserve better.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> It's a separate entity, and not overseen by outside healthcare regulators.


The VA is evaluated by and has to comply with all standards set by the JCAHO....the same organization for accreditation that covers all civilian medical facilities. Medical and nursing staff working for the VA are required by law to have the same current licenses as the staff working in civilian medical facilities.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm kinda surprised at the number of posters that think this sort of thing is OK for the men and women that risked their lives for our country. I think they deserve better.


It's NOT ok, and the DO deserve better...on that we can both agree!!!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> The VA is evaluated by and has to comply with all standards set by the JCAHO....the same organization for accreditation that covers all civilian medical facilities. Medical and nursing staff working for the VA are required by law to have the same current licenses as the staff working in civilian medical facilities.


I believe the Joint Commission was brought in (it's voluntary and they have to be asked to inspect) specially to spot check the VA in 2013/14, and they did do a long term survey. https://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=2808


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm kinda surprised at the number of posters that think this sort of thing is OK for the men and women that risked their lives for our country. I think they deserve better.


I almost never think government run entities are OK.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

I've been a consumer of healthcare services provided by the VA for the past 27 years,from simple primary care visits to major surgical interventions , and have 2 major surgeries scheduled this week as a matter of fact. Some of the care that I've received has been outstanding,some I wouldn't have wished on my worst enemy. If you don't hear from me after this week you can assume that I am no longer among the living."If" I am still here after the surgeries.."I'll be back"....


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

I have been through plenty of jcaho inspections. The number of things that are done for the inspection that doesn’t happen day to day in normal operations amazed me. I had a vp ask me to delay red tagging a sterilizer due to the inspection that was occurring next week. He couldn’t have one of his units down then. The door post was loose and that could allow the door to blow off. Still got red tagged. The number of sterile trays that returned to central supply out of date just before the inspection baffled everybody. They do go looking for them but some hiding places are well hid. Inspections don’t get everything and not all departments are inspected at one time. And just because you have a license to practice doesn’t mean your capable to practice. I’ve been in burn units where the patients rooms looked like that picture. Where bloody bandages were thrown against the wall and slid down. Bandage gone but nobody cleaned the wall. Working in the operating room and had fleas jumping on me! Had a doctor walk into open heart surgery wearing no mask and a cup of coffee in hand. Peered into the chest cavity to see how things were going. The average person doesn’t get behind doors to these places. Lots of things happen that you never hear about. You need grunts to make them work right, not just licensed people.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> I've been a consumer of healthcare services provided by the VA for the past 27 years,from simple primary care visits to major surgical interventions , and have 2 major surgeries schedule this week as a matter of fact. Some of the care that I've received has been outstanding,some I wouldn't have wished on my worst enemy. If you don't hear from me after this week you can assume that I am no longer among the living."If" I am still here after the surgeries.."I'll be back"....


Have had basically the same experience with the VA. But I've also seen the same thing happen to friends and family in the private sector. Good luck on your surgeries.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

no really said:


> Have had basically the same experience with the VA. But I've also seen the same thing happen to friends and family in the private sector. Good luck on your surgeries.


Thank you..


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm kinda surprised at the number of posters that think this sort of thing is OK for the men and women that risked their lives for our country. I think they deserve better.


As far as I’ve seen no one has said that. 
So why would you bring it up ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Robotron said:


> Cut the big wigs and save a ton of money for the jobs that must be done. Never seen a vp or managing director scrubbing anything that mattered besides their own reputation.


 So your solutions to bad management are less management
?


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

Tell me why a 200 bed hospital run by the Sisters of Mercy needed 47 vp’s? The Sisters did and they top management was canned in one day. Took about a dozen Sisters to run the place. The corruption was atrocious. A bean counter running maintenance, refused to buy correct bulbs for surgical lamps, had his guy run to ace hardware. Big liability on that. But he signed off on refusing to order them. You need good motivated management that’s willing to do the mission. Not enrich themselves and friends. Patients are the reason it all exists, they come first on everything. And that includes executive bonuses and leased cars.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

That’s a good explanation find it helpful but I have noticed some places they give out titles like vice president instead of extra pay for more work/responceability by any chance was it one of those places?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> No, it's the VA system and it's always been substandard.


Government run. Just like want you want.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

Nope, they ran the place like a personal piggy bank. New office fixings on a yearly basis. The gold standard by them how many executive assistants you could garner. Meantime the workers were getting cut and poor quality practices started to emerge. The Sisters fixed it rather quickly. The understood the mission was to serve the poor patients and they came first.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

It seems like the medical care given to veterans is a low priority nearly everywhere in the world. Always has been. And not by the staff but by politicians and the public. Otherwise there would be massive protests and adequate funding demanded as well as more nurses and doctors. "Thank you for your service" is an easy way to assuage your conscience but means little. "A lifelong commitment to take care of you because of your service and sacrifice" is a covenant between countries and soldiers and one that is not honoured as it should be. Lifelong covers the young soldiers of today and soldiers from the past who are middle aged and seniors and thus the funding needed may cover soldiers for 50,60 or 70 years. That better could be done is without question.

Having said that - everyone could help. Go to the VA hospitals and offer your services. If you have family or friends in or going in to hospital you can commit to helping care for them. Take some of the load off the staff until things can be changed for the better. 

Whenever I have been in hospital my husband was on hand to take care of me including cleaning the room, fetching and carrying, feeding and helping with personal hygiene. If he was going to get water or blankets for me he would poke his head in all the rooms along the way asking if anyone else needed anything. I did the same for my Mom and Dad and friends when they were in hospital. The nurses all appreciated that we made their job a little less busy and it was very satisfying to know that we were contributing to the care of loved ones. It is easy to blame the terrible management and lack of staff but it does not make things better for the patient. No one ever had to have a dirty room when we were on duty.


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## miggyb (May 2, 2015)

Farmerga said:


> Example of Socialized medicine.


It has to be the individual locations. I've been cared for at both the Boston and Providence VA and feel it is the best medical care I have ever had. While working I always had employer provided health care plans, after a medical situation, I couldn't work and lost my health care. I turned to the VA and have never regretted it. I just wanted to put in a good word, where it is deserved, not trying to be contrary.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

miggyb said:


> It has to be the individual locations. I've been cared for at both the Boston and Providence VA and feel it is the best medical care I have ever had. While working I always had employer provided health care plans, after a medical situation, I couldn't work and lost my health care. I turned to the VA and have never regretted it. I just wanted to put in a good word, where it is deserved, not trying to be contrary.


Socialized medicine is a hit and miss situation. If you happen to get good leadership at a location, it may work, for a while. The problem is that socialism tends to degrade over time.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Government run. Just like want you want.


What I want is affordable health care for every citizen in the United States, and there are very few ways of providing that without a single payer system.


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## miggyb (May 2, 2015)

Farmerga said:


> Socialized medicine is a hit and miss situation. If you happen to get good leadership at a location, it may work, for a while. The problem is that socialism tends to degrade over time.


Every thing and body degrade over time. You can count our democracy in with any degraded socialist system you have in mind. It's up to the following generations, to continue on with the promises made by previous generations. Made when the reason for the promise was still fresh in mind,blood and treasure.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> I've been a consumer of healthcare services provided by the VA for the past 27 years,from simple primary care visits to major surgical interventions , and have 2 major surgeries scheduled this week as a matter of fact. Some of the care that I've received has been outstanding,some I wouldn't have wished on my worst enemy. If you don't hear from me after this week you can assume that I am no longer among the living."If" I am still here after the surgeries.."I'll be back"....


Good luck on your operations. Hope you do ok.
Years ago I had operation at V.A. Had to have it corrected a year later at Barnes hospital in St. Louis, Mo. That was the last operation I had at the V.A. in Missouri. Long beach V.A. in Ca. is a good hospital. Modern and a lot of Doctors from other hospital do operations there. The V.A.'s here in Missouri at not good at all. Just about all the Doctors are from other countries. They get them cheap and paid their way to the U.S. most have to ask the other American Doctors how to treat. Just a big mess. I have full med. coverage now so I go to non VA hospital.

Have had 3 heart operations at Barnes hospital in St. Louis in the past 5 years. All have tuned out good. Bypass on heart, Valve repair, and stent in lower main heart artery. My heart doctor is the number one in the U.S. for the pass few years. When I went in to see him he looked at me and said I haven't seen you since you were 16. He was a friend in H.S. days. Same age as me.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

Farmerga said:


> Socialized medicine is a hit and miss situation. If you happen to get good leadership at a location, it may work, for a while. The problem is that socialism tends to degrade over time.


Hospital in the U.S. is a hit and miss. Lot of bad private hospitals in the U.S. Same as the V.A. hospitals.

I worked in Canada for a few years under their social health care system. I can say it was the best heath care system in the 5 countries I have lived in. While there I made sure I got my heath care up to date as they had really good hospitals and Doctors. Had all my teeth fixed and new uppers also. In the U.S. it would have cost me a lot to have my teeth all fixed. I worked on contract in Canada and my pay was twice what it was in the U.S. West coast of Canada ( V.C.B.C.) is beauty county.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

gerold said:


> Hospital in the U.S. is a hit and miss. Lot of bad private hospitals in the U.S. Same as the V.A. hospitals.
> 
> I worked in Canada for a few years under their social health care system. I can say it was the best heath care system in the 5 countries I have lived in. While there I made sure I got my heath care up to date as they had really good hospitals and Doctors. Had all my teeth fixed and new uppers also. In the U.S. it would have cost me a lot to have my teeth all fixed. I worked on contract in Canada and my pay was twice what it was in the U.S. West coast of Canada ( V.C.B.C.) is beauty county.


I have heard that the Canadian system is fine for small issues, for the big ones, not so much.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

miggyb said:


> Every thing and body degrade over time. You can count our democracy in with any degraded socialist system you have in mind. It's up to the following generations, to continue on with the promises made by previous generations. Made when the reason for the promise was still fresh in mind,blood and treasure.


Socialism has its demise already baked into the pie.


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## miggyb (May 2, 2015)

Farmerga said:


> Socialism has its demise already baked into the pie.


Explain, please.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

miggyb said:


> Explain, please.


When your philosophy is that everyone "Deserves" x no matter their ability to pay, those who work to pay for it will soon discover that they are chumps and cease, thereby causing the collapse of said systems. Now as far as society goes the more socialism one has the faster its demise.


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## miggyb (May 2, 2015)

Farmerga said:


> When your philosophy is that everyone "Deserves" x no matter their ability to pay, those who work to pay for it will soon discover that they are chumps and cease, thereby causing the collapse of said systems. Now as far as society goes the more socialism one has the faster its demise.


You make a big jump, this article dispels your theory.http://blog.peerform.com/top-ten-most-socialist-countries-in-the-world/


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

miggyb said:


> You make a big jump, this article dispels your theory.http://blog.peerform.com/top-ten-most-socialist-countries-in-the-world/


Places like the former USSR, Cuba, and Venezuela prove my point. Sure, Communist are socialist to the extreme, but, even these "soft" socialist nations will either change or do much damage, eventually.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Gerold brings up a good point. 
VA hospitals are a benefit. 
No one is forced to use them they use them at their own discretion. 
And like you said many veterans vote with their feet where I’m at most veterans choose the VA hospital in Marion Illinois or Danville Illinois rather than the VA hospital in St. Louis Missouri.
If the hospital is bad enough and enough veterans vote with their feet one of two things will happen either somebody will notice and do something about the fact that that has hospital has no clients.
Or the reduction in clients will allow a better level of service to those that remain.


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## miggyb (May 2, 2015)

Farmerga said:


> Places like the former USSR, Cuba, and Venezuela prove my point. Sure, Communist are socialist to the extreme, but, even these "soft" socialist nations will either change or do much damage, eventually.


Sorry, I can't agree. Russia,Cuba were attached at the hip and the Chavez administration had warmed up to the Soviet Union I would argue the disintegration of the Soviets Union adversely affected Cuba. I would blame Chavez and Maduro's fiscal irresponsibility for squandering Venezuela's oil wealth. Extreme China heads the list of successes. Like it or not, there are many thriving Socialist based governments. So, again I say, it depends on the VA location, not the "socialist system".


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## Grey Mare (Jun 28, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> What I want is affordable health care for every citizen in the United States, and there are very few ways of providing that without a single payer system.


And how would it be paid for, for "everyone"? 

I have worked in the medical field for 27 years, a looooong time. I use to feel this way too till I was working in hospitals, then I changed my mind. Ever had to work with a 350+lb patient who isn't compliant with their diet because they think the doctor is cruel and starving them? I have. 

How about the patient who is a chronic drug user and is getting FREE dialysis while another paying patient has to wait to be seen or get dialysis? Who has Hep C and doesn't want to go at the time scheduled for it so she pee's on your shoes and scrub pants when you get her up to clean her? I have.

Those who smoke and know the risks, yet do so anyway and down the road are diagnosed with cancer and are on oxygen. Who continue to smoke regardless, even after being offered help and ways to stop smoking. I have.

Why should we end up paying for those who are non compliant with their health and well being. Who pop out babies instead of doing the right thing and getting their tubes tied or learn how to use proper birth control? How about non compliant diabetics? I certainly don't want my hard earned dollars going to those who abuse and use the health care system and now make it even harder for others to get medication they are needing or use because somewhere someone is abusing it and mucked it up for everyone else.

Military hospitals..oh how I am familiar with them. Husband is a retired CW3, served 18 and a half years till he was medically discharged out of the Army. Yep, the stories I could tell. The veterans, retirees, and those who serve, they should demand better care and treatment. They deserve it.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I find it interesting that you can find any excuse not to serve a civilian but a veteran no matter what apparently deserves treatment. 
What about you ? Do you live the perfect healthy life? Perfect diet always? Never take a risk ?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

miggyb said:


> Sorry, I can't agree. Russia,Cuba were attached at the hip and the Chavez administration had warmed up to the Soviet Union I would argue the disintegration of the Soviets Union adversely affected Cuba. I would blame Chavez and Maduro's fiscal irresponsibility for squandering Venezuela's oil wealth. Extreme China heads the list of successes. Like it or not, there are many thriving Socialist based governments. So, again I say, it depends on the VA location, not the "socialist system".


You listed one of the major problem with Socialist systems, fiscal irresponsibility. In a top down type of government it is much easier to cause mayhem and poverty. China's recent growth is a direct result of the evil of socialism being reduced. China is like a spring the more one removes restrictions from that spring the more and faster they grow.


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## Grey Mare (Jun 28, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> I find it interesting that you can find any excuse not to serve a civilian but a veteran no matter what apparently deserves treatment.
> What about you ? Do you live the perfect healthy life? Perfect diet always? Never take a risk ?


Military and veterans who served gave Uncle Sam and "open check" as they say. They did their time, they served and they fought or went to countries that we had no business going to, put their life on the line so that we have the freedoms here in the USA. They earned and deserve respect. Did you or have you ever served in the military AmericanStand? Just curious, not trying to be argumentative with that question. 

Perfect health? No one has that, though I try to live a healthier life, watch my weight and eat right, yes. I have been without health care and I have had instances that I should of gone to the ER or doctor but didn't because I couldn't afford the bill at that time. As for taking a risk, depends on your idea of what a risk is. 

Insurance isn't a right, it is a privilege. If everyone had insurance, again, who would pay for it? Do you want to have more taxes? Higher taxes to pay for it? I sure don't.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Like every other national program via taxes, ie. Medicare.

I too have a medical background, and there is very little that surprises me.

Why rant on and on after that initial question? It has little to do with how to pay for a national heath care system. There will always be non compliant patients, people that abuse their bodies, etc. but the reality is that we pay for them now either via Medicaid, other goverment programs, or paying more for health care to make up the loss. Plus there's that whole we aren't a third world country that allows people to die of simple diseases because they are not responsible. How many kids are you willing to let die because their mother got pregnant (perhaps because of lack of birth control and access to abortion) and isn't able to pay for their medical care? Some states provide fee or low cost health programs for kids (New York does) but not all do.

Many people talk a great game about letting the less able, less fortunate, the less responsible "sink or swim" but we live in society and I think Maya Angelou said it best, "If it is true that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, isn't it also true a society is only as healthy as its sickest citizen and only as wealthy as its most deprived?"

ETA: Dang, just dang.


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## Grey Mare (Jun 28, 2013)

There are free clinics and charities that will help those who have no health insurance. Also, hospitals have a obligation to treat. Again I ask, how do you intend for health care to be paid for for everyone to get health care in this country?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Grey Mare said:


> There are free clinics and charities that will help those who have no health insurance. Also, hospitals have a obligation to treat. Again I ask, how do you intend for health care to be paid for for everyone to get health care in this country?


Nope, hospitals have an obligation to stabilize. Who pays for free clinics and charity health care? They are usually at least partially goverment funded, and many charities also receive government grants/funding. 

Again, as I stated in the opening sentence of my last post, "Like every other national program via taxes, ie. Medicare."


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> Many people talk a great game about letting the less able, less fortunate, the less responsible "sink or swim" but we live in society and I think Maya Angelou said it best, *"If it is true that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, isn't it also true a society is only as healthy as its sickest citizen and only as wealthy as its most deprived?"*


maya missed the mark a bit..... First she seems to think of society is like a log chain made up of a single strand of links. She should look at it more like layers upon layers of chain mail, with links interlocking in all three dimensions. Secondly, who are these "deprived" ones and who in our free country has deprived them?


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Farmerga said:


> I have heard that the Canadian system is fine for small issues, for the big ones, not so much.


You are listening to an agenda. Cancer treatments in Canada are as advanced as anywhere in the world with a lot of research. I am alive because of the fantastic and innovative treatment and meds that I receive. There were Americans having the same treatment with me because hey could not get it in the US. Have met thousands of cancer patients over the past years when I go for treatment and even though we all don't get more time in life we are treated very well. We also have many great surgeons who not only perform surgeries here but all over the world and they have invented many techniques. There have also been huge strides in the treatment of alcoholism which is such a huge problem in Canada and the US.


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## Grey Mare (Jun 28, 2013)

Only one Canadian city in the top 10 rated cancer centers, is #7, most of the top 10 are in the US:

1. *Hospital of the University of PA – Abramson Cancer Center*
* Philadelphia, PA, United States*

*2. Roswell Park Cancer Institute*
* Buffalo, NY, United States
*
*3. Johns Hopkins Hospital Sidney Kimmel Comprehensive Cancer Center*
* Baltimore, MD, United States

4. University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center
 Houston, TX, United States

5. Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center
 New York, NY, United States

6. Wake Forest University Baptist Comprehensive Cancer Center
 Winston-Salem, NC, United States

7. Princess Margaret Cancer Centre, University Health Network
 Toronto, ON, Canada

8. USC Norris Comprehensive Cancer Center
 Los Angeles, CA, United States

9. Christie Hospital NHS Foundation Trust
 Withington, Manchester, United Kingdom

10. Spanish National Cancer Research Center
 Madrid, Spain

https://www.topmastersinhealthcare.com/30-most-technologically-advanced-cancer-centers-in-the-world/


*


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## miggyb (May 2, 2015)

Farmerga said:


> You listed one of the major problem with Socialist systems, fiscal irresponsibility. In a top down type of government it is much easier to cause mayhem and poverty. China's recent growth is a direct result of the evil of socialism being reduced. China is like a spring the more one removes restrictions from that spring the more and faster they grow.


Fiscal irresponsibility is not unique to a socialized government, take a look at the budget proposal put forth by the Trump admin.https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/12/us/politics/white-house-budget-congress.html. You're talking in generalisms, and haven't defended your assertions, with a valid example. Specificity is sorely lacking, but on the other hand it's Friday, have a good one.


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## miggyb (May 2, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> maya missed the mark a bit..... First she seems to think of society is like a log chain made up of a single strand of links. She should look at it more like layers upon layers of chain mail, with links interlocking in all three dimensions. Secondly, who are these "deprived" ones and who in our free country has deprived them?


Is she making the mistake of characterizing us as all equal, on the same level? Human beings? Your description is more on point , a distinctly layered society with the top enjoying all the benefits. Who are the deprived? Off the top of my head I can point out Flint,MI and Puerto Rico as citizens who have been deprived or more accurately, screwed.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

miggyb said:


> Is she making the mistake of characterizing us as all equal, on the same level? Human beings? Your description is more on point , a distinctly layered society with the top enjoying all the benefits. Who are the deprived? Off the top of my head I can point out Flint,MI and Puerto Rico as citizens who have been deprived or more accurately, screwed.


How are the good citizens of Flint Mi or Puerto Rico being deprived? And by whom? Are they being denied their right to take care of themselves? To build up their own economic structure? As human beings do these particular groups lack what others do? Are they born minus limbs? No thumbs perhaps? Or are they just too stupid to take care of themselves like we are constantly being told by our liberal minded socialist brothers and sisters?


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## miggyb (May 2, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> How are the good citizens of Flint Mi or Puerto Rico being deprived? And by whom? Are they being denied they right to take care of themselves? To build up their own economic structure?


Why do I have to explain this? I've been through Kentucky, I didn't find the inhabitants to be any more ignorant than other places I've been through. If you are the exception, you have my sympathy and I will explain. Flint does not have a source of clean drinking water, available to the citizens. However, Nestles has been approved to increase their daily extraction of clean water despite public outcry. By whom: State of Michiganhttps://earther.com/nestle-free-to-pump-even-more-water-near-flint-while-re-1825015035 Puerto Rico's grid problems, exacerbated by Maria, have been pushed aside and forgotten by most are explained in the following article:https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/18/us/puerto-rico-mass-power-outage/index.html. Now that you are caught up, I still don't believe it will change your attitude. Hopefully, it will sink in. Happy Cinco de Mayo and have a good weekend.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

The fine folks of flint do not have clean drinking water? If not why not? Isn't there a lake nearby they could pump a few gallons out of? As to those fine folks in Puerto Rico being powerless. As I understand it there are thousands of people down there now restoring their power for them. Maybe if those folks did more for themselves and depended less upon others to take care of them?? You are correct about one thing though.... Unless you honestly answer my basic questions you will prolly not change my attitudes much. I'm old school that way. Show me a better way, I'm all ears. Asking me to repeat the same mistakes that cause the problem? Not so much. I'll ask again, just for you.... Who is denying anyone their right to improve their lot in life?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Puerto Rico has a corruption problem.

With a crumbling infrastructure that had a 300,000-customer power outage before landfall of any major hurricane this past September, Puerto Rico was losing the economic war to import industry and manufacturing into the picturesque island. It wasn’t a policy failure, as Act No. 20 of 2012, known as the “Export Services Act” provided Puerto Rico an incredibly favorable tax haven for would-be expatriates.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/1/how-corruption-killed-a-golden-opportunity-in-puer/

For the last 30 years, the Puerto Rican government has been completely inept at handling regular societal needs, so I just don’t see it functioning in a crisis like this one. Even before the hurricane hit, water and power systems were already broken. And our $118 billion debt crisis is a result of government corruption and mismanagement.

https://nypost.com/2017/09/30/inept-puerto-rican-government-riddled-with-corruption-ceo/


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

miggyb said:


> Fiscal irresponsibility is not unique to a socialized government, take a look at the budget proposal put forth by the Trump admin.https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/12/us/politics/white-house-budget-congress.html. You're talking in generalisms, and haven't defended your assertions, with a valid example. Specificity is sorely lacking, but on the other hand it's Friday, have a good one.


But it is allowed to live longer in socialist societies. That is why income inequality tends to be much worse the more socialism a society employees.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

emdeengee said:


> You are listening to an agenda.


Yes, the one that the socialists have been trying to sell us for decades.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Grey Mare said:


> Military and veterans who served gave Uncle Sam and "open check" as they say. They did their time, they served and they fought or went to countries that we had no business going to, put their life on the line so that we have the freedoms here in the USA. They earned and deserve respect. Did you or have you ever served in the military AmericanStand? Just curious, not trying to be argumentative with that.


Lol you must have taken a huge drink of the cool-aid and not spent any time seeing how the service actually works. 
Most “ veterans” never have seen combat. That’s why being in the service is SAFER than cilvilian life. 
Seemed to me that most around me in the army never understood that open check on life idea till they were on their way to a zone. 
They have earned no more respect than your average citizen. 
Unless of course we are talking draftees. They tended to know they were cannon fodder but it’s not like they volunteered so no respect for them at all.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol you must have taken a huge drink of the cool-aid and not spent any time seeing how the service actually works.
> Most “ veterans” never have seen combat. That’s why being in the service is SAFER than cilvilian life.
> Seemed to me that most around me in the army never understood that open check on life idea till they were on their way to a zone.
> They have earned no more respect than your average citizen.
> Unless of course we are talking draftees. They tended to know they were cannon fodder but it’s not like they volunteered so no respect for them at all.


May have been true in the past, not so sure it is for post-911 veterans or even Gulf War vets - everyone I know to knew about that "check." Most people I'm close with took that "check" multiple times across many deployments to "zones." 

One sibling of mine has been diagnosed with PTSD from being stationed at a hospital (an actual hospital, not a field hospital) in one of the places we're in involved in and the enemy constantly attempting to bomb it or sneak bombs/IEDs in with injured people/corpses. The better half's best friend has some shrapnel in his back that he got during an RPG attack while walking to a vehicle on base in the other place, off-duty - not in a FOB. My husband missed being in that attack because someone stopped him to ask a question before he followed his friend out. No different than a lot of stories, and I have a lot more. Non-combat career fields don't mean you don't get shot at or people trying to blow you up anymore, even when you're supposed to be in the rear with the gear. 

I just found your post quite offensive, having come from a family with a lot of my relatives having served or currently serving, having been been a military spouse for more than two decades, and having served myself.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol you must have taken a huge drink of the cool-aid and not spent any time seeing how the service actually works.
> Most “ veterans” never have seen combat. That’s why being in the service is SAFER than cilvilian life.
> Seemed to me that most around me in the army never understood that open check on life idea till they were on their way to a zone.
> They have earned no more respect than your average citizen.
> Unless of course we are talking draftees. They tended to know they were cannon fodder but it’s not like they volunteered so no respect for them at all.


Many may not see combat. But they voluntarily signed up and thus made the offer to go into combat. Unlike the average citizen.


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## Grey Mare (Jun 28, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol you must have taken a huge drink of the cool-aid and not spent any time seeing how the service actually works.
> Most “ veterans” never have seen combat. That’s why being in the service is SAFER than cilvilian life.
> Seemed to me that most around me in the army never understood that open check on life idea till they were on their way to a zone.
> They have earned no more respect than your average citizen.
> Unless of course we are talking draftees. They tended to know they were cannon fodder but it’s not like they volunteered so no respect for them at all.


AmericanStand...you know what assuming does right? 

My husband has been to Panama and was dropped with the 2nd Ranger Battalion in the jungles, seeing combat and live fire, and the military didn't know where exactly where he was for over 5 weeks. How do I know this? Because while he was doing that, we currently lived near Ft. Bragg, in Fayetteville, I was mugged one evening while walking from the parking lot with our 4 year old little girl, so I had to call the command for help. 

He has also been to Bosnia, several times to the conflicts over in the big sand box across the ocean, to other areas I don't have need to know, to translate and to help so that terrorists don't over run our great nation and make us some little dust bowl with a ruthless dictator like their country is. Want me to go on with what he has done and the wall of honor he has in our home that we both are proud of of just a fraction of his accomplishments and awards?! And he continues today, even after serving 20 years in the military, working as a civilian, with the military as his job is what is classified as a specialty, not many can do what he does. 

Have YOU served or done time in the military? He has missed birth of our first child, her first work, first step, birthdays, anniversaries, deaths, illness, etc. Because he chose to go into the military and he chose to defend our great nation and go where other's don't have the internal fortitude to go or do a job that many couldn't or wouldn't do. 

And they aren't cannon fodder?! You sir certainly don't know what our men and woman face. Guess you didn't see the photos of the caskets coming home? Never spoke with a mother or father who lost their child. Never cried along with them at a military funeral. I have. So please, don't insult my intelligence by sitting there and saying they don't deserve as much respect as other military members, because there were many times I had to be brave for our children while he had handed me his will, POA, and important paperwork before boarding a C130 to who knows where and the whisper of "I love you".


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Redlands Okie said:


> Many may not see combat. But they voluntarily signed up and thus made the offer to go into combat. Unlike the average citizen.


Talk to them most don’t seem to understand that. 
With the exception of a few that seek the combat specialties most don’t seem to understand it till after they are in. 
I recently had a talk with a longtime friend and her husband. She is so overjoyed that her kids are a marine, a sailor and a soldier. 
But clueless that they might come home in body bags. She actually argued that couldn’t happen. 
Sorry but that’s just not something the services want to talk about till after you have taken the oath.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Grey mare. I read what you wrote but I don’t know how to respond since I never could figure out your point. 
If it was just that your family has suffered I can understand that. But do keep in mind all that suffering was you and your husband’s choice.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Talk to them most don’t seem to understand that.
> With the exception of a few that seek the combat specialties most don’t seem to understand it till after they are in.
> I recently had a talk with a longtime friend and her husband. She is so overjoyed that her kids are a marine, a sailor and a soldier.
> But clueless that they might come home in body bags. She actually argued that couldn’t happen.
> Sorry but that’s just not something the services want to talk about till after you have taken the oath.


Your experience with what military people know and don't know is vastly different from mine. Of course a lot of parents with children in the military don't want to think about what could happen to their kids because of their job. That doesn't mean their kids don't understand. My mother has had two out of three of her children in the military, one a lifer still serving and one who served and has been married to a lifer since - for the past almost 30 something years. Her oldest grandson is currently serving. Her father is a WWII vet. My mother still doesn't understand a lot of what we do/did or how much of the life works and what's dangerous about it and what's not. Parents not getting it doesn't strengthen your argument that WE don't get it. We do, and most of us *want* our parents not to get it.

Also, you seem to be comparing your experience in the Army during a specific time frame to everyone's experience across all services and across all times...which is a pretty limited slice of what "most" people experience/know. And is completely different than my "slice" of perception.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Mush 
What I’m trying to make clear is that most don’t seem to join the service with altruistic ideas of service and sacrifice. 
It’s not till they get in that that idea is fed to them. 
Most go in for the benefits. 
The service is actually a great job with amazing benifits and I’m really tired of people badmouthing how bad it is. 
We all know if they really didn’t like it and thought they could get a better deal they wouldn’t join or reup.


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## Grey Mare (Jun 28, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> Mush
> What I’m trying to make clear is that most don’t seem to join the service with altruistic ideas of service and sacrifice.
> It’s not till they get in that that idea is fed to them.
> Most go in for the benefits.
> ...


Stop assuming and please, answer the question. Your wrong on all accounts again. As I said, my husband still works along side the military and we have friends who are still in, so no they don't go in for just the benefits...hogwash. If your tired of people "bad mouthing" the military, you may wish to reread what you have been typing then, as you may wish to practice what you preach. 

So, once again AmericanStand...WERE YOU or WERE YOU NOT in the military? And if so, what was your MOS?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol I can’t see any way that either of those questions are any of your business. 
Do you care to share with us any proof that 100s of thousands of people have joined the service just for the good of the country ?
That’s a lot of altruistic folks.

All those folks who only care about the welfare of others and they think a dirty hospital room mistake is reason to bring down a service that helps many thousands of vets ?
Sounds more like a get mine attitude.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Seems the military is providing incentives such as school to compete with the open market so some will join. Do not care if they joined the military to avoid prison time like was once common or if its done for school purpose. If you do the time then you should get the benefits.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Redlands that sounds about right.


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## Grey Mare (Jun 28, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol I can’t see any way that either of those questions are any of your business.
> Do you care to share with us any proof that 100s of thousands of people have joined the service just for the good of the country ?
> That’s a lot of altruistic folks.
> 
> ...


By your lack of response to my questions it is apparent what the answer is. You believe what you wish, as what you assume, I know as I said, many of our friends are military and my husband works side by side with military members today.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Grey Mare said:


> By your lack of response to my questions it is apparent what the answer is. You believe what you wish, as what you assume, I know as I said, many of our friends are military and my husband works side by side with military members today.


Yes I’m sure that’s true Have you ever noticed any group of similar people working together can convince themselves that they are worth far morethan their employers pay ?? They can convince themselves they’re all greatly wronged for every tiny detail not to their liking? don’t hang out with the people that are the same as you and think you’re learning anything about life.

You seem upset that I did not answer your totally irrelevant questions. 
It’s obvious that the reason that you asked those questions is so you know how go about shaming me for not bowing to the feet of the veterans. 
So many X military and false patriots seem to think that the reply because he’s a vet is actually a reasonable response. 

Oh sorry I know a lot of current and veterans military personnel. There’s nothing particularly God like about them they’re just regular folks having regular lives and that means making the best of it.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Mush
> What I’m trying to make clear is that most don’t seem to join the service with altruistic ideas of service and sacrifice.
> It’s not till they get in that that idea is fed to them.
> Most go in for the benefits.
> ...


Again, I think you're wrong in your assumptions, especially with the post 9/11 crowd. There was a huge surge in people volunteering at that point. I know the reason I went in, and while the benefits didn't hurt, it was because I believe this country (which is separate from our government) is worth protecting. I know the reason my husband went in and stayed in for 22 years, and it wasn't the benefits (which are not what a lot of people think they are). I know the reason my sister went in and just went over 20 years, still in...which also proves that benefits are not the main thing for most people, or she'd have said, "see ya" the day she hit 20 (as would my husband and many other people I know who have done more than the bare minimum for benefits).

I don't see people badmouthing how bad the service is, I see people trying to minimize the very real dangers that military people face that your average person does, and the sacrifices they make that are not all about being in danger - more missing literal years of time, if you added it all up, and important events/milestones with people you love. Especially now, the "benefits" are dwindling in value, and wouldn't be worth it if you didn't have a belief that there's a higher reason that you're doing this job.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Mosh do you really think the service is the only job with the disadvantages you list ?
And no you don’t have to do 20 plus years to get those bennies. 
The service is a constant string of Bennie from the moment you meet your recruiters till after you are dead and gone. 
Yes you are. Very well compensated. 
Guaranteed job medical benefits housing benefits meal benefits educational benefits recreational benefits vacation benefits clothing benefits retirement benefits purchasing benefits travel benefits grave benefits flag benefits funeral benefits and about 200 more that I can’t think of offhand at the moment.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Mosh do you really think the service is the only job with the disadvantages you list ?
> And no you don’t have to do 20 plus years to get those bennies.
> The service is a constant string of Bennie from the moment you meet your recruiters till after you are dead and gone.
> Yes you are. Very well compensated.
> Guaranteed job medical benefits housing benefits meal benefits educational benefits recreational benefits vacation benefits clothing benefits retirement benefits purchasing benefits travel benefits grave benefits flag benefits funeral benefits and about 200 more that I can’t think of offhand at the moment.


Guaranteed job? No more so than any other job, and less so than a lot of jobs with unions or in other areas of Federal employment. Actually probably worse because you can get fired for things most people's jobs wouldn't even know about. How many people have you worked with that were fired for being involved in an accident (or bar fight or...) where alcohol was involved while not at work? Or got fired because they were too fat and couldn't enough lose weight, or got cancer? Or got demoted because they had an affair? Not many, I'd wager. All of these are true stories about people I know. You can also get "fired" for not being promoted quickly enough, for not passing physical fitness tests or not firing a weapon well enough, or about 200 other reasons I can't think of offhand. I don't think you really know how this all works.

Medical benefits? Yes, while you're active duty, but only afterward if you retire (I have no medical benefits on my own as a veteran, only because I'm the spouse of a retiree). We pay into it. We pay co-pays. Our coverage has been getting less, our premiums have been going up, and our co-pays have also been going up. You also convert to Medicare once you hit the magic age.

Housing benefits? Because you generally don't get paid enough in salary to live on the economy, and until the last decade or so when it was turned over to civilian companies, base housing was horrible (peeling paint, broken floors, mold, leaking roofs, etc) and often had years-long waiting lists. Where I live, the average cost of a single family home is over $500,000. Your average one bedroom apartment rents for $1,800/month, 2 bedrooms for $2,200/month (I don't even know if you could get a 3 bedroom around here). I live right next door to the largest Marine Corps Base in the world in population. There are several Navy bases in the area, as well as the USMC Recruit Depot and a USMC Air Station. Tell me how many Marines and Sailors can afford those costs on their base pay without housing allowances (you can google pay scales if you're sincerely interested). It's not a benefit because they feel kindly toward us, it's because they need people to not be living in cardboard boxes wherever they decide to send us, as, unlike in civilian jobs, I can't tell them, "no, I'd rather not move there, thank you very much." Well, I could, but then we circle back to your argument that we can't get fired, and that's one of the fire-able (and jail-able, on the way to being fired) offenses.

Educational benefits - not going to argue with you there. Although today's benefits are much better than mine were, and I did have to pay into mine. I think they still have to put in a minimum amount of service and get a good conduct discharge to qualify for the money, though.

Recreational benefits? As in....?

Clothing benefits? As in...? Oh, I don't have to worry about what outfit I'm wearing tomorrow, maybe?

Retirement benefits? Only if you retire (I have none as I didn't do 20). And, while alright as far as pensions go, they are kind of silly compared to if my husband had spent those 20 years in state or local service instead of the military. My SIL's projected teacher's pension is better than my husband's, as well as her medical coverage (and she didn't have to pay into Social Security while working to get it, and never had to move or leave her family for extended periods. Or be shot at/have bombs lobbed at her). Also, little known fun fact, military pensions aren't actually pensions at all. They're retainer pay, meaning, in taking the money, you are agreeing to be recalled to service at any date the government needs you in the future. 
Secondarily, it's being phased out for new people. They're going over to an actual retirement plan type thing. I don't have all the details except that it's going to be more of a portable IRA type thing than a pension. So, there's that.

Purchasing benefits? As in...? (please don't say PX and commissary, they aren't even close to being as cheap as Wal-Mart's pricing anymore unless you're one of those OCD people that hits 20 different stores to buy the cheapest item at each one. And, no, we don't pay taxes there but you get to pay a commissary fee which is about the same as sales tax, depending on what state you're in. Nope.)

Travel benefits? As in...? Oh, I get a ship, desert, jungle or mountain vacation for 6 months to a year once every couple of years that I can't take my family to and I may get killed visiting. Cool.

Flag benefits? Really? 

Funeral benefits? Again, really?

Please, do try to think of the other 200, I'm interested. Wondering why everyone doesn't sign up and do at least 20 with all of this glory being showered upon us. Recruiting offices should look like opening time on black Friday, all the time.


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## Bungiex88 (Jan 2, 2016)

Another reason to just privatize it. Goverment run organizations have no accountability. When it’s a private company doing the bidding they know if they screw up there’s another company right around the corner that will take there place. With the goverment running it they know it doesn’t matter how they perform they will just keep getting funds to supply crappy care


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