# Choosing defence caliber for wife



## Rectifier (Jun 12, 2011)

Since we moved full-time to the farm, I have felt my wife feels uncomfortable outside by herself, especially after dusk. I don't blame her as we are out in the wilderness and predators abound.
Being Canada, she is prohibited from carrying a pistol - apparently our government would prefer us dead rather than armed, but that's another topic.

Anyways I found that us Canucks were thrown one bone. The Rossi Ranch Hand, cut down lever action, classed as a handgun everywhere else - rifle in Canada. Our smallest and lightest carry option.
It's still the legal 2' long, but that's a lot easier to holster or scabbard than a full deer rifle or even a short shotgun. Also it's a cool and fun looking gun!

Here is my dilemma. It comes chambered in .357 Mag, .45LC and .44 Mag. The .45 and .44 are in stock at the local gun shop and happen to be on sale. 

Personally I would choose the .44 Mag because it has the stopping power, and can be loaded down into the .44 Special range for practice.
It would have more than enough power for deer as well and a light gun like this would be nice in heavy brush.

She hunts with me, likes shooting and has her own 20ga over/under and a high powered .177 air rifle for vermin. She is a fine shot with .22 but has never been a fan of the way the 30-06 kicks - so is .44 Mag too much? Factory pistol loads are so expensive in Canada that I would likely end up loading my own, so I would probably end up loading down for shootability. Or should I just go with .45, though it has much less energy?

Critters to be defended against include mostly cougar, coyotes and wild dogs. Very occasional black bear. Also porcupine and skunk, to be shot on sight.

I would ask her what she thinks of it but I want to surprise her with it at Christmas  Do you think a girl would like one of these?


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2014)

A friend of ours has the Rossi 38/357 and loves it. He took it to a Sun, Fun & Gun BBQ this past weekend, and the girls all loved it! dear Hubby and StepSon report that the girls invariably selected the Rossi when they got a chance to pick something...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

44 mag all the way 44mag from a 5 pound gun won't recoil as hard as a bolt action 30-06

like you said your going to end up making your own you can make them from the lightest to the most stout 

molds are available 

the other option would be 45lc the factory loads start light but you can work up a more powerful load in the rifle and get near 44mag 

as soon as you said bear you had to go big or go home 

actually, this is going to add length but a marlin 45-70 guide gun or 20ga with short barrel and variety of shells will add to it's multi purpose use 

the nice part about shotguns is they are cheap and easy to feed a bunch of different things 

in 45-70 your also going to likely end up making your own but you can load them mild to wild 

I think that most commonly in northern Canada the 12ga shotgun with a short barrel is the most common thing carried for bear and other defense
I am not a huge fan of relying on the spread of buck shot over a single projectile , but I was pattering some cheap suprema buck shot and if you were withing 6 inches or a foot at 25-50 feet something was going to get hit with an improved cylinder choke 

here is a thread I did on this cheap buck shot available at walmart maybe even in Canada http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/co...me-defense-guns/523613-suprema-buck-shot.html


the nice thing is if she is already a 20 ga shooter then she won't baulk at the idea and you get a easy to clean easy to work on gun that is easy to feed with off the shelf ammo

levers , have lots of screws , and small parts compared to a pump shot gun where you can drop the trigger group drop the bolt and carrier . slide of the barrel and have it all wiped down and drying in a few minutes with no tools . when you start talking working gun it is going to get wet , snowed on and dirty . levers are real nice but it takes my a good 20 minutes to take it all apart with screws and get it dry and clean when it gets wet , my 870 is lay down a towel on the table , unscrew the cap on the mag tube , pull the barrel , push out the 2 trigger group pins , and wipe it all down let it warm up and dry out then wipe down with a oil rag and assemble in a few minutes


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

box o truth is always interesting http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-22-20-gauge-shotgun/ 

water is a very hard medium on ammo next time your swimming open you hand up flat and smack the water with it , you will have thought you just slapped a hard surface for the way your hand hits , at high speed water is almost like shooting a hard surface and often gives much bigger than normal expansion , the 20 ga slugs be they Remington . federal or Winchester have always performed very well on deer for us been shooting deer with them a long time since our area went shotgun only for deer in the late 70s


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## MichaelK! (Oct 22, 2010)

Definately get the .44 magnum. I've used a .44 to harvest deer, and I can vouch for it. A 240 grain hollowpoint will pass completely through a deer at 100 yards, so it will be a good defense arm against a bear.

The kick is less than a .30-30, and even less if you shoot 44 specials. That may be the way to go around the farm. You could load it with one or two .44 specials to deal with barnyard predators, followed by .44 magnums for bigger stuff that isn't discouraged by the low powered rounds.

BTW, most women I've ever taken shooting seem naturally attracted to my lever action pistol carbines. Chicks love shooting .38 specials in my Marlin. Guess it makes them feel like cowgirls.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

do they allow folding stocks in Canada ?

what is magazine capacity law ?

there may be other very viable options


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

If you told me I could only have a long gun to carry , and I wanted something compact but easy to clean 

my 2 go to guns would be a 870 and a ruger mini 14 or 30 , I would probably equip both with a good folding stock and a sling that I could sling them over my back easily a big part of the why is because I can break either down for cleaning in about 30 seconds and both are very reliable the other thing would be to add a good light to each


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## Rectifier (Jun 12, 2011)

Canada is very arbitrary in their laws... I just got off the phone after a chat with the gun shop. Basically these are a very special gun in Canada.
Normally a gun like this would be restricted (pistol class) and cannot be carried or fired anywhere but a designated range. However because of the lever action it gets reclassified as a rifle. If it was semi-auto, it would be prohibited class due to its sawed-off look (yes, the looks of the gun can be used to determine legality in Canada)

Normally 18.5" barrel minimum, 26" overall. This gun comes in at 12" barrel and 24" overall. If you cut down a factory barrel it cannot go lower than 18.5" or it is prohibited. Centerfire rifles have a max capacity of 5 rounds, but as this fires pistol cartridges it is let to slide with 6, and if you pack it with the shorter .44 Spl then reportedly you can fit in 9.
Get the gist of the Canadian laws? Neither do we 

We both have carried a variety of defender shotguns when we lived in bear country and found them clumsy and heavy for everyday carry. Pumps are pretty much the only option if you don't want a shell in the chamber on your back, which makes me feel very uncomfortable.
I tried the pistol grip once to shorten the overall length and never will again! Ouch. Also the 3" magnum slug you are carrying in the magazine is inevitably too much ammo for shooting pest animals - it's really just for the bears. Now where we live a bear is sighted maybe once a year out here and can be put on the run just by the sound of a shot.

The Ruger is cool it is still a long gun, I am really after something that is truly holsterable, that you can almost forget you are carrying.
Anyways I tried to order the .44 today and they were out of stock. So I guess I have to wait a bit.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

if you can't have the 20 round mags and a folding stock in the ruger it isn't worth it and it sound like you very experienced with shotguns for bears , the 44 ranch hand is the way to go 
I have heard of a bunch of guys putting the full length stock on the ranch hand in Canada to make them much more shoot able this adds about 4-5 more inches to the stock but makes them shoulder fire-able for much greater control , some even mount a small red dot sight and can use them out to greater distances 

here in the US a 12 inch barrel with a full length stock is an SBR (short barrel rifle) and you have to pay a 200 dollar tax and wait several months to a year to get the paper work processed but I can have a 9 inch barrel AR with 30 round magazines and mount it on a single point sling and push out rather than pull in and it works nearly the same way , one fo the guys at the range has an AK set up like this and can ring a 8x10 inch steep plate regular from standing with it at 100 yards 

that said hand guns are readily accessible in the US 

I forget I am carrying my 17.1 oz pistol 21oz loaded I don't know that your going to forget a 4 pound gun ,but with a decent sling to toss it over you back it should at least be workable


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## Rectifier (Jun 12, 2011)

True that there is no forgetting a 4 pound gun but at least it's not a 7-8 pound shotgun!

It was always the length that got to me more than anything with the shotguns... they are always snagging on things. You aren't just going for a walk - you're going for a walk _with a shotgun_ and that gets annoying! Using a scabbard on my back the pump action forearm always gets snagged going in and out and I just found it to be a pain.

With a holster like this the gun is always dangling down your leg but at least it isn't snagging up on things and it can be drawn without messing with the action. I'm not sure how well it would navigate a barb wire fence, but it would be easier than a longer gun... I hope








They want like $300 for this holster, I will be making my own. That price and it's not even tooled, maybe I should be selling them :facepalm:


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

45 colt is a decent round. For years, the cops in Houston carried Smiths in that caliber. Never heard of them having any problem planting somebody with it.

And, if you reload or know someone who does, you can twist the tail on a 45 LC until it almost thinks it's a 44 mag...and some folks think it actually kills better than a 44 under those circumstances (heavier bullet, more frontal area).


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Hey Pete.. get one of these for your AR Pistol... Think about it not being on your wrist.. 

I've handled one of these on an AR pistol, and boy does it make for a nice little compact package... 

I have a letter from the ATF I just got in the mail yesterday about these, and the Ranch Hand... Even though you are not using the cuff accessory as the intended design and put it against your shoulder, you have not turned your pistol into a SBR... This is kind of like the thumb hole AK was in Calif...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

you know me being cheap and me I thought why not just put a tennis ball on the end of the buffer tube and put that up to the shoulder 

you know the tennis ball is there to keep it from getting scratched up when it rides in the truck 

I have thought about these a few times , where I hunt we are shotgun only , well accept that you can chamber a pistol in anything you want 

I always thought I should show up with an AR pistol in a single point sling I can ride around in the truck with it loaded and it is 100% legal because it is a pistol not a rifle


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## Rectifier (Jun 12, 2011)

So these single point slings are new to me but I get the concept. Emulated stock, push out against the sling to stabilize the gun in tension instead of compression. 

Is this what the Ranch Hand's strange looking single attachment point beside the action is for? Looks like it would pull the gun to one side?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

single point slings are not a new idea , just a new take on an old idea 

you have heard of a saddle ring carbine , yes 

the ranch hand can get a saddle ring 

many who are not up on their history though that a leather lace would be tied to this and used to secure it in the scabbard on a saddle and that may have also been the case

but it's primary intended use was to keep the cavalry rifle in the reach of the soldier on horse back it was a belt worn diagonally across the body with a metal swivel and clip to attach to the ring on the rifle 
even if the soldier was to fall asleep in the saddle his rifle was almost in his hands when he awoke 

a single point sling is to carry the dun in a ready position and does nothing really to aid shooting , like a traditional rifle sling


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## Hamman (Sep 29, 2014)

Rectifier said:


> Since we moved full-time to the farm, I have felt my wife feels uncomfortable outside by herself, especially after dusk. I don't blame her as we are out in the wilderness and predators abound.
> Being Canada, she is prohibited from carrying a pistol - apparently our government would prefer us dead rather than armed, but that's another topic.
> 
> Anyways I found that us Canucks were thrown one bone. The Rossi Ranch Hand, cut down lever action, classed as a handgun everywhere else - rifle in Canada. Our smallest and lightest carry option.
> ...


Are you asking for advice or just telling us what you are going to do?

I didn't see any question here, are you bragging?

I don't understand the point of your post..


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## Rectifier (Jun 12, 2011)

Feels like a troll, seeing your post count and how many other threads there are to enjoy on this site that wouldn't confuse you, but the obvious questions if you read the post are:
- is .44 mag in a carbine too much for a girl with hunting experience?
- are the other two calibers available too weak to kill the critters mentioned reliably?
- do girls like lever carbines?
and the implied:
- what is your opinion of this gun for defense, in the absence of available handguns?
- is this gun too bulky for everyday carry?

The commenters above had no trouble with their reading comprehension and helped me out by answering these questions. I decided to buy the gun in .44 mag. It didn't really feel like there was much to brag about, unless you are perhaps too young to buy your own firearms?

So, do you have anything constructive to add? Do you own this gun or any handguns/carbines of the stated calibers? Please discuss.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Personally I'd go with the 45LC loaded as hot and heavy as I could get/handle. Its better to have more umph than you need to take out a small critter than to not have enough when you need to stop something that could harm you.


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## FireMaker (Apr 3, 2014)

Get the 44 for you both. If she isa regular hunter she will be fine. Under stress she will be fine. She can practice with the44 spec but carry the mag.


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## Rectifier (Jun 12, 2011)

Thanks guys, the gun was out of stock after all so I have more time to evaluate the merits of hot-loaded .45 vs .44 mag.
I am still feeling the availability of powerful factory cartridges in .44 mag gives it the boost on .45 which must be hand loaded to achieve similar ballistics.
That must significantly increase chamber pressures over a stock .45LC, is that safe in the long term?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Rectifier said:


> Thanks guys, the gun was out of stock after all so I have more time to evaluate the merits of hot-loaded .45 vs .44 mag.
> I am still feeling the availability of powerful factory cartridges in .44 mag gives it the boost on .45 which must be hand loaded to achieve similar ballistics.
> That must significantly increase chamber pressures over a stock .45LC, is that safe in the long term?


if the 45 is built on the same frame with the same steel as the 44 then shooting near 44mag pressure loads from it is ok , BUT you MUST keep those hot 45s away from older guns that could chamber them and become grenades under that kind of pressure as 45lc is a 15,000 psi max round and 44mag can run 35,000 psi even hot 45lc rounds for rugers and thomson centerfire only take 45lc to 30,000 psi in the book


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

My wife can't fire my .357 with any sort of accuracy at all. She is great with a .22, but the recoil on my .357 Ruger GP100 is just too much for her. She missed a 4x8 sheet of plywood at 25 feet. If your wife can handle a higher caliber then go for it. If I was buying my wife a defensive weapon I would buy her a .22 because the first step, beyond stopping power, is actually being able to hit something with it.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

V-NH said:


> My wife can't fire my .357 with any sort of accuracy at all. She is great with a .22, but the recoil on my .357 Ruger GP100 is just too much for her. She missed a 4x8 sheet of plywood at 25 feet. If your wife can handle a higher caliber then go for it. If I was buying my wife a defensive weapon I would buy her a .22 because the first step, beyond stopping power, is actually being able to hit something with it.


A 22 for defence is not very good. Get some light load 38 special rounds. They won't kick much. Let the wife try the Ruger with those. If she can hit with them then try some ammo with more zip. Find a load she can be comfortable and accurate with. Even the light load has a lot more stopping power than a 22.

I have a 38 load with a 158 grain SWC bullet and about 4 grains of Red Dot that I use for target practice. My 11 year old nephew thoroughly enjoyed shooting them out of my S&W 586.


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

My dear Wife can handle shooting any firearm we have in the house, .357's, .45 Colts, Or whatever. And she has a few of her own, a nice little collection.. Most of hers are 9MM. But she grew up in a Military Family. Her Dear Old Dad is a retired Career Marine. And her two Sisters can shoot pretty well, too. It's all in how they were brought up.


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

Old John said:


> My dear Wife can handle shooting any firearm we have in the house, .357's, .45 Colts, Or whatever. And she has a few of her own, a nice little collection.. Most of hers are 9MM. But she grew up in a Military Family. Her Dear Old Dad is a retired Career Marine. And her two Sisters can shoot pretty well, too. It's all in how they were brought up.


My wife was raised in a liberal, anti-gun household and never even saw a real one until we got married. :gaptooth:

Probably explains part of the difficulty.

My wife also has wrist problems due to a work injury so anything that is going to move to any significant degree when you fire it becomes an issue. She even struggles with my 9mm. A .22 might not be the best option, but for her it is the only option unless there's something out there like it with virtually no recoil.


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## Rectifier (Jun 12, 2011)

One of my buddies brought by a stubby little semi-auto .22 carbine today and we were playing with it. We both agreed that putting 10 .22 holes in the average critter would result in a pretty rapid death (since there are no bears here) and could be done in only a couple seconds due to the lack of recoil.

However that's 10/10 shots you have to make in a panic situation vs. 1/6 with the big boomer - and if the critter is truly in attack mode it will be unlikely to bleed out fast enough or release its grip on you from the 10 holes.

In defence situations against humans, the .22 is probably fine (you point it, I crap my pants) but animal defence requires knockdown power IMO.

My wife can take the head off a grouse at 30 yards without getting any pellets in the bird, and likes to shoot my 12 gauge - but it makes her shoulder sore after a couple shots, so I bought her the 20 ga to shoot all day. She is a light girl after all (110lbs) which is why I worry about the coyotes getting after her! 

With the carbine held out front like a pistol it should not hurt the shoulder (unless held too loosely :gaptooth

The point is kind of moot right now as we hit a cow and wrecked up the farm van, and now have no spare cash for the gun  My firearms budget now has only enough room for a couple pellet pistols for sparrow shooting.


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

Self defense,any shotgun with improved cylinder choke and #4 buckshot. Some shotguns are better choices than others but nothing is a better choice for self defense. General farm and ranch work requiring a carbine, Ruger Ranch Rifle in Rem. 6.8 SPC.


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## K-9 (Jul 27, 2007)

Rectifier, a couple of things, first the ranch hand is a neat little gun but unless you can put a full length stock on it, fast follow up shots are very difficult as it is awkward to manipulate the lever without the stock being braced against your shoulder. I know you are trying to go with as compact a package as possible but with your limitations on handgun carry you are at a disadvantage. You might want to take a look at the shortest barreled youth model 20 gauge pump you can legally possess. It give you faster follow upshots, a greater variety of available ammunition types and quicker reloads.

Secondly, I can't speak for Canadian thugs but thugs down here are not particularly bothered by a gun being pointed at them. Unfortunately due to my work, I wind up point firearms at people with some degree of regularity, until they realize that you are about to provide them with all the answers to any questions they have about life after death they often continue their course of action. Now, I don't know that it makes a lot of difference what you are armed with if you appear determined to them but if you just think that pointing a firearm at them is going to greatly affect them, you may be in for a tragic surprise.

Sorry to hear you crashed your vehicle, hopefully you recover from that setback quickly.


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

"Never point a firearm at anything that you do not intend to shoot." 

That is from the 10 commandments of firearm safety.

"If you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk" 

That is from Tuco while taking a bath in 'The Good, The Bad and The Ugly.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

remember he is in Canada and they can't just shoot someone like you and I can they may be totally justified and still loose it all 

police point guns at people every day they don't intend to shoot so long as they comply 

those safety rules get bent a bit in police , combat. survival and defense situations


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

More to the point,they fully intend to shoot if and when necessary. Unfortunately it can also go the other way.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

My wife likes both the .44 and .45 and is more accurate than I am.


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## Zimobog (Aug 31, 2013)

If you're going to reload you could go either way without a lot of difference in performance in my opinion. I like both very much. That is such a cool weapon I think any shooter, male or female, would be thrilled to get one as a gift. I saw someone shooting one using a rifle-like check weld and had no complaints about kick-claimed it brought the accuracy way up. If I gave my wife one if want to try that out myself first of course! lol don't want to sleep on the couch


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## caswellian (Jan 11, 2015)

I recommend a 12 guage shotgun for self defense, especially if bear are involved.
Its easier to hit the target for the untrained person in a crisis and it delivers devestating stopping power at a personal distance.


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

Two piper side by, #4 buckshot 3" mag. Even a 20 will do quite well at 30'.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Rectifier said:


> True that there is no forgetting a 4 pound gun but at least it's not a 7-8 pound shotgun!
> 
> It was always the length that got to me more than anything with the shotguns... they are always snagging on things. You aren't just going for a walk - you're going for a walk _with a shotgun_ and that gets annoying! Using a scabbard on my back the pump action forearm always gets snagged going in and out and I just found it to be a pain.
> 
> ...


Please tell me what is this rifle? TIA.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

7thswan said:


> Please tell me what is this rifle? TIA.



it is and it isn't 

see in canada they have a definition of rifle that includes this as a rifle , although I think they may equip most of them with full but stocks , any way this slips in under rifle in Canada 

in the US it is a pistol however because the stock is not intended to be held to the shoulder IF you put a full stock on it in the USA it becomes a short barreled rifle and must have NFA ATF paperwork and tax stamps before you add the stock to it 


letting politicians decide what something is , oh well , irrational fears prevail


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> it is and it isn't
> 
> see in canada they have a definition of rifle that includes this as a rifle , although I think they may equip most of them with full but stocks , any way this slips in under rifle in Canada
> 
> ...


Well,thank you, but that is so confusing,but I'll take a picture to my gunman. I really like this,whatever it is. Now, I'm going to make another thread about another hg. Thanks!


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

7thswan said:


> Please tell me what is this rifle? TIA.


Its a Rossi "Ranch Hand". Its classified as a pistol in the US.

Other companies have made similar things. I believe Henry makes a 22 set up similarly.

They look interesting, but are a bit awkward for quick use. Most report they are fun to shoot, but not particularly practical.

Go to google and do an image search for "Zoe Washburne" from the (unfortunately) short lived Firefly series.

https://www.google.com/images?q=zoe+washburne%27s+mares+leg+firefly&hl=en&gbv=2&tbm=isch&oq=&gs_l=

That type gun was first seen in the 1950's TV series "Wanted, Dead or Alive" starring Steve McQueen. It was called a "Mare's Leg" in that series.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the Canadians with their different laws found a way to make them much more practical , they put the normal full length stock on them and they make a great saddle carbine , 12 inch barrel , 10 rounds 44mag and the ability to aim it decent under 100 yards quickly


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Malamute said:


> Its a Rossi "Ranch Hand". Its classified as a pistol in the US.
> 
> Other companies have made similar things. I believe Henry makes a 22 set up similarly.
> 
> ...


That is it then, Dh has been watching cowboy movies lately and they show picture at the end of what must be exactly what you say. I'll pay more attention. Thank you!


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