# "It's not you. It's me." played again this weekend



## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

GF and I ran into a many times dumped friend who asked us how we made what we have work for us, which of course all we could tell him was that we both lived a few decades between going our separate way and reconnecting, have always had our quirks and independent ways and just work each issue out as it comes along and so far since we have been back together we made it past each issue as it presented itself.

After listening to him for about two hours complaining at all of his romantic failures, he finally admitted that there must be something wrong with his approach or he is trying to find his fairy tale life but instead is stuck in a "goldilocks and the three bears rut of 40 years".

When he got to that part, I told him to consider stopping his attempts to chase his fairy tale ending and just try enjoying life on his own and if a close enough situation presents itself as he lives his life see what happens.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Shrek said:


> GF and I ran into* a many times dumped friend* who asked us how we made what we have work for us, which of course all we could tell him was that we both lived a few decades between going our separate way and reconnecting, have always had our quirks and independent ways and just work each issue out as it comes along and so far since we have been back together we made it past each issue as it presented itself.
> 
> After listening to him for about two hours complaining at all of *his romantic failures,* he finally admitted that there must be *something wrong with his approach or he is trying to find his fairy tale life but instead is stuck in a "goldilocks and the three bears rut of 40 years".*
> 
> When he got to that part, I told him to consider stopping his attempts to chase his fairy tale ending and just try enjoying life on his own and if a close enough situation presents itself as he lives his life see what happens.



"Many times dumped" implies that this man has attracted and maintained a relationship w/ a woman for a period of time.....so it sounds like his approach is working...

"Fairy Tale Life"? You would think that it would be HE who is dumping women when they don't fit his fairy tale mold, instead of them, dumping him. What an odd thing?
Sounds like he is "staying with them" regardless if the fairy tale is reality, and it is THEY who are cutting and running.

Poor dude.


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## Nsoitgoes (Jan 31, 2016)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> "Many times dumped" implies that this man has attracted and maintained a relationship w/ a woman for a period of time.....so it sounds like his approach is working...
> 
> *I agree that if he has had several relationships his approach is working. It is what happens next that is his problem.*
> 
> ...


Or it simply could be that he has a totally unrealistic image of what kind of relationship he should have and that the women, being more realistic. figure they will not/can not/don't want to fit the mold he has created for them. Some people are totally oblivious as to how their attitude affects others.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Ahhh the old "bait and switch".
Present oneself one way to 'hook em' then let the mask fall off and the real individual shows true.


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## Nsoitgoes (Jan 31, 2016)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Ahhh the old "bait and switch".
> Present oneself one way to 'hook em' then let the mask fall off and the real individual shows true.


To be fair, if this is so he may not realize it. As he gets more familiar and more comfortable with the relationship he may drop the very things that made him attractive in the first place assuming that the relationship doesn't need the fripperies any more.

Gentlemen: Fripperies are always good and appreciated.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Nsoitgoes said:


> To be fair, if this is so he may not realize it. *As he gets more familiar and more comfortable with the relationship he may drop the very things that made him attractive in the first place *assuming that the relationship doesn't need the fripperies any more.
> 
> Gentlemen: Fripperies are always good and appreciated.


I guess that's why it's best to just be yourself, out of the gate, that way the other person doesn't waste time!!


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

By what Jay said, Id assume hes been dumped MANY TIMES by many women. Yes, I totally agree with you that likely how he seemed at the start and how he ended up changed into were wide enough that a woman couldn't keep one foot on either side of the casm? and she folded.
Id say that most men are like that, but id also say that most men don't realize it, that they do that.
Its like, to me, the farm is bought. The farmstead is behind me, but to keep it ive got to plow the fields. These fields are work, payments, responsibilities, ect, and I cant take my eye off the previous furrow till I get them all plowed under.
Unfortunatly, most of the time nowadays, by the time all the fields are plowed, the farm is lost anyhow.
I know that I seemed tough, and rough when X met me. She knew that I was a farmer, but in an abtract way, as her dad and granddad had been farmers and it hadn't effected her life that much. When she found out what being on a real farm was like, she finally skipped. The fact that the Waltons AND Happy Days and the movies came on at round the same times, she got to see both sides of me, as I started wearing suspenders to my jeans as I couldn't afford overhalls which, at the time id rather worn around the farm. Dressing in long sleeve shirts and stupenders, she said reminded her of her granddad, which helped make it 14yrs
Men put on a presence when dating, clothe themselves nice, and try to be what they, through all the smoke of dating think a SO wants them to be, but when they've won their SO, they start wearing comfortable clothing, clothing from work, dirtier/greasier clothing. that shiny image she had of him slides off his horse and she jumps.
Women dress to try to seduce someone. She saines and straines out all the small fry looking for THE CATCH. Once caught, she also does the same thing as the man, and I believe she does it first in most cases, as I cant believe that IF my X had dressed in the same type of clothes as when we dated, that I would have changed, myself. I think I might have WANTED to, but realize the sexy beauty in my midst would have caused me, I believe to want to be a sexy looking stud to her.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Ahhh the old "bait and switch".
> Present oneself one way to 'hook em' then let the mask fall off and the real individual shows true.


Laura may be right. 

I know I like to wear jeans and I ended up with a man who LIKES the look of a woman in tight jeans. He would have been disappointed if I had switched to sweats for everyday wear after we were in item. 

Oh, everybody puts their best foot forward while dating, but I think that MOST of what a sweetie sees should be real. That way there is no let down. 

Or at least not MUCH of a let down: when I started dating the man I married he took me to the weekly dances which was where where everybody took their dates to, and so DH took me. AFTER we were married he said he hated dancing! But, the REST of what I saw was genuine! LOL!


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Wada da minnit, I said mosta that


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Sadly I have seen members of both genders get dumped by many social partners just because of their fairy tale ending expectations.

He has only had nine or ten women dump him but GF told me a woman she knew during her first marriage in the late 80s got 2nd or third date dumped about 20 times or so during the decade they lived in the same area as the dumpster bound woman and she even tried to show the relationship dumpster bound woman that it was her fairy tale expectations that destroyed her relationship efforts once before the woman ended their girl talks about the bad dates she went through.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Shrek said:


> Sadly I have seen members of both genders get dumped by many social partners just because of their *fairy tale ending expectations.*
> 
> He has only had nine or ten women dump him but GF told me a woman she knew during her first marriage in the late 80s got 2nd or third date dumped about 20 times or so during the decade they lived in the same area as the dumpster bound woman and she even tried to show the relationship dumpster bound woman that it was her *fairy tale expectations* that destroyed her relationship efforts once before the woman ended their girl talks about the bad dates she went through.


What is a fairy tale expectation?
How does one have this expectation, and the other person, not know?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

FarmboyBill said:


> By what Jay said, Id assume hes been dumped MANY TIMES by many women. Yes, I totally agree with you that likely how he seemed at the start and how he ended up changed into were wide enough that a woman couldn't keep one foot on either side of the casm? and she folded.
> Id say that most men are like that, but id also say that most men don't realize it, that they do that.
> Its like, to me, the farm is bought. The farmstead is behind me, but to keep it ive got to plow the fields. These fields are work, payments, responsibilities, ect, and I cant take my eye off the previous furrow till I get them all plowed under.
> Unfortunatly, most of the time nowadays, by the time all the fields are plowed, the farm is lost anyhow.
> I know that I seemed tough, and rough when X met me. She knew that I was a farmer, but in an abtract way, as her dad and granddad had been farmers and it hadn't effected her life that much. When she found out what being on a real farm was like, she finally skipped. The fact that the Waltons AND Happy Days and the movies came on at round the same times, she got to see both sides of me, as I started wearing suspenders to my jeans as I couldn't afford overhalls which, at the time id rather worn around the farm. Dressing in long sleeve shirts and stupenders, she said reminded her of her granddad, which helped make it 14yrs





> Men put on a presence when dating, clothe themselves nice, and try to be what they, through all the smoke of dating think a SO wants them to be, but when they've won their SO, they start wearing comfortable clothing, clothing from work, dirtier/greasier clothing. that shiny image she had of him slides off his horse and she jumps.


If he's dating a woman that is interested in his clothes, and she dumps him, well he can consider himself lucky. He picked wrong.



> Women dress to try to seduce someone.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Ok, my profile pics were (1) me in flannel and jeans, shooting a shotgun. No make up. (2) me underneath my Jeep. No make up, hair in a pony. (3) me mailing a letter in shorts and a tank top with my hair on my head because it was hot as hades in GA (4) me imitating a piece of art on the 4th of July. Again, shorts, tank top, flannel shirt, and my hair a hot mess on my head. No make up.

The 1 and ONLY time I met someone, I wore jeans, my work boots, a thermal shirt w/ a flannel. I did have on make up, and my hair was not a hot mess. 
I was covered head to toe.....
I was 100% me. No false pretenses.



> She saines and straines out all the small fry looking for THE CATCH. Once caught, she also does the same thing as the man, and I believe she does it first in most cases, as I cant believe that IF my X had dressed in the same type of clothes as when we dated, that I would have changed, myself. I think I might have WANTED to, but realize the sexy beauty in my midst would have caused me, I believe to want to be a sexy looking stud to her.


Bwaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
I am so thankful that not all men are shallow.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

As to your last, IF men aren't so shallow, why aint you swamped with guys? lol

As to your first of mine. Men have NO idea what a woman is truly interested in. They can see that women dress to try to interest men, so they naturally assume that women want men to do the same. Men don't know how, and their choices are way more limited than womens.
All these mens and womens are a generalization, not ALL of the species lumped together.


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## RichNC (Aug 22, 2014)

FarmboyBill said:


> As to your last, IF men aren't so shallow, why aint you swamped with guys? lol
> 
> As to your first of mine. *Men have NO idea what a woman is truly interested in.* They can see that women dress to try to interest men, so they naturally assume that women want men to do the same. *Men don't know how, and their choices are way more limited than womens.*
> All these mens and womens are a generalization, not ALL of the species lumped together.


Please stop trying to define ALL men by your own limited view FBB, many of us knew what our woman/wife wanted and were married for a very long time and had a very happy life. As to clothes, did all the men's clothing stores close recently, because I have a number of places to shop for dress clothes in my area.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Rich please read my LAST sentence AGAIN, IF you read it at all.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

FarmboyBill said:


> Rich please read my LAST sentence AGAIN, IF you read it at all.


A generalization is lumping all together... 
A species is both male and female by the way...


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Alright ill say it this way.
I DID NOT intend that what I said above should include ALL men OR ALL women. Just what I BELIEVE to be the majority.

That work better?


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## RichNC (Aug 22, 2014)

FarmboyBill said:


> Alright ill say it this way.
> I DID NOT intend that what I said above should include ALL men OR ALL women. Just what I BELIEVE to be the majority.
> 
> That work better?


No that doesn't work, because what you believe to be the majority if it is skewed to your experience is not a majority, does that make sense, reading things on the internet does not make you experienced or wise or knowledgeable it makes you well YOU!


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

BUTT, I have the right to believe whatever I want to believe regardless of what others MAY believe. NOW, If I said that I believe this or that, and any who don't believe what EYE believe are ignorant 2 humped camels, or whatever, THAN, that makes a difference, as im slamming the beliefs of others, which is not right. BUT AGAIN, You, me, or ANYBODY ELSE has the right to believe WHATEVER they want to believe, and they can even GUESS at how many may believe what THEY believe. That is their right, at least in this country, for awhile.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Kinda like that right V Privelage thing I mentioned on another post.
In THIS country I have certain rights guaranteed to me. BUT, IF AND WHEN, I choose to exercise these rights, THATS MY PRIVILAGE.
AS LONG
As I don't vilifie anyone elses rights or privilages, OR BELIEFS. Pardon the smelling. lol


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

AH, Another post that's made a 90


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

FarmboyBill said:


> As to your last, IF men aren't so shallow, why aint you swamped with guys? lol


What makes you think I am not? 



> As to your first of mine. Men have NO idea what a woman is truly interested in.


Maslow's Theory.
There you go FBB. A woman has answered your age old question!!



> They can see that women dress to try to interest men, so they naturally assume that women want men to do the same. Men don't know how, and their choices are way more limited than womens.


I will agree with you that women, generally, do dress to impress.
Some women wear what they want, and give zero spits what anyone thinks.

(The one time I met a very nice man, we agreed that this was not a fashion show, and we would dress comfortable. He wore jeans, a thermal shirt, and a carhart jacket)

My point is the same; don't pull the bait and switch. Don't pretend to be someone you are not, wear clothes that are not you, eat food that is not you to 'impress, reel in or hook' a mate.



> All these mens and womens are a generalization, not ALL of the species lumped together.


If your view on women is based upon your personal experience, I am so sorry you have had some really crappy women in your life.
We are not all fake flakes!!


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> What is a fairy tale expectation?
> How does one have this expectation, and the other person, not know?


I would guess that it would be in the line of "I will marry a prince of a man, and all of my troubles will go away"


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Agree, but I guess since Shrek has said "fairy tale expectations' multiple times, he's got a clear picture of what this 'man's' problem is.

I am curious.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Terri said:


> I would guess that it would be in the line of "I will marry a prince of a man, and all of my troubles will go away"


Bummer. I was thinking about those magic beans that Jack bought.


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## sustainabilly (Jun 20, 2012)

For me it's all about the porridge. Transubstantiated, of course.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

Clem said:


> Bummer. I was thinking about those magic beans that Jack bought.


Oh cool! Magic gas!

Mon


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Laura, You may be thinking that all men have the same drive, and they DO NOT. Rapists have a different sex drive than normal men I would guess.
I had the mumps go down on me when I was 12. Ive always known that My sex drive was low by hearing the guys at work talking about 2 or 3 times a night. They coulda likely been lying, but I KNEW I was a once a night kind of guy. When Xs dressed and looked sexey, then my abilities were heightened. When they became frumpy house wives, it diminished. With the last X it just finally quit altogether as far as her being able to arouse me. SO, I guess it was my fault. If I had stayed on the sofa like I was told, I might have been a macho stud today, lol


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

You need to learn some self control about what to say and not say.

As the cool kids say nowadays..."TMI"


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

FarmboyBill said:


> Laura, You may be thinking that all men have the same drive, and they DO NOT. Rapists have a different sex drive than normal men I would guess.


Bless your heart, you think rape is about sex.......Oy Vey.



> I had the mumps go down on me when I was 12. Ive always known that My sex drive was low by hearing the guys at work talking about 2 or 3 times a night. They coulda likely been lying, but I KNEW I was a once a night kind of guy. When Xs dressed and looked sexey, then my abilities were heightened. When they became frumpy house wives, it diminished. With the last X it just finally quit altogether as far as her being able to arouse me. SO, I guess it was my fault. If I had stayed on the sofa like I was told, I might have been a macho stud today, lol


How did we go from clothes that people wear to sex?:facepalm:
I guess some how this ties into the whole "fairy tale experience" that no matter what you look like your wife should dress up in her sexy maid costume and gravel at your feet, living to serve, and never aging".

That's more like a hallucination. A whole different topic........


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Well, as A McCoys neighbor usta say, Ive had my say


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## sustainabilly (Jun 20, 2012)

So, what have we learned?
Do not ask what flavor is the koolaid when it has already stained your shirt.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

A few years ago, while working away from home, I was renting a room in a house. There were four bedrooms rented out. &#8220;Sue&#8221; came to live with us. Divorced, 15 pounds overweight. Nothing special to look at, but always &#8220;fixed up&#8221; nice. Has two teenagers that live with their dad. She only lived there a few months, but is on my facebook friends. So, I view her from afar.
When I first met her, she was excited about a first date with a handsome guy. He was a bartender and a few women were going to that bar with Sue. When the bar closed Sue would be going out on a date with the bartender. It was as if she didn&#8217;t see how seedy this setup was. Well, one of her girlfriends got drunk and the bartender took her home instead of Sue. Sue was heartbroken.
She was going to Law School and working as a secretary. She seems to fall into love often and heartbroken often. Every few weeks there is another facebook posting about how you must walk away from those that don&#8217;t respect you or don&#8217;t love you as much as you love them. Then a few days later, she&#8217;s so excited over the new love of her life. The cycle just keeps going. She makes it all public on facebook, for everyone to see.
It is like she picks the most handsome guy, falls in love, expects him to cherish her every moment and treat her like she&#8217;s a beauty queen with the world&#8217;s best personality. She isn&#8217;t. 
Guys tell her what she wants to hear, she chooses to believe it, he gets what he wants, sees what she looks like in the morning and leave without a note.
I&#8217;m sure her life is a struggle, made worse by her insistence to live a touch beyond her means. What she seems to want is a rich, special guy, but she can&#8217;t hold up the other half of the deal. So she gets dumped, a lot. Seems likely that a decade of such hurt, she would either be insanely desperate or swear off men completely. 
Of course any attempts at mild warnings are not seen as helpful.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Y'think it'5 the 15 pounds?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Clem said:


> Y'think it'5 the 15 pounds?


Nah, while perhaps a piece of the puzzle, I'm thinking the problem is a bit farther north. Thinking of yourself as a beauty queen, greatly sought after, in her prime, smart, rich or any of the other things people judge folks on, when she is someone's ex-wife, mother of two teens, 40 something. The 15 pounds (I was being kind, more like 30 pounds) isn't the only thing keeping off the A list.
Falling in love at bar closing time doesn't help.


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

As I remember the good old days of dating, what comes to mind is how I would go overboard. Maybe take the young lady to an expensive restaurant, buy roses, etc. This scares them and makes them suspicious as to what you may be covering up, and you can not keep that up anyway. Finally, I learned that coffee and pie was a better option, and skip the flowers until after the wedding. Instead of the heavy romance, do some maintenance on their car or wash their dishes.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Sounds like the voice of experience that I never had lol


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

haypoint said:


> ....
> Falling in love at bar closing time doesn't help.


Whoa! Doesn't everyone? It's just so much EASIER then!

Mon :nana:


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

quicker too. And that's a good thing cause its cheaper also. That's cause the both of yez are broke lol


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I am thinking she is choosing a lover for his looks, exclusively, with little thought for anything else. Male or female, often that does not work out very well.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

I'm still waiting for Shrek to explain what "fairy tale expectations" is.......


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

I'm guessing that means happily ever after.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Whiterock I'm guessing it's deeper than 'happily ever after'.......I just want to hear what 'fairy tale expectations' means to him.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Bless your heart, you think rape is about sex.......Oy Vey.........



Oh you sweet thing,
You think it's not.


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## sustainabilly (Jun 20, 2012)

In my opinion, rape, in reference to sexual assault, is only related to sex in that, the act of removing a victim's choice to either engage in sex or not, is simply the vehicle used by the rapist. In other words, it boils down to control and/or power when viewed from a psychological perspective. 

That the sex part of rape, in this instance, happens to be the main vehicle used to either gain power and/or control over the person raped, as well as the perceived degree of power and/or control gained by the person doing the raping, is why the word rape has also increasingly been used to characterize the heinous nature of other non-sexually related issues. 

Take 'rape of the environment' as an example. In this light, it becomes debatable in that it becomes questionable as to whether the environment is truly self aware, and does the environment truly have the ability to even conceptualize the idea of choice.

The point here is, it's important to be able to separate those connections when discussing any specific way that rape is used in the modern lexicon. It becomes even more important when investigating causality.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

billy, was u a lawyer once upon a time? lol


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Rape is about power. 
Sometimes it's about the power to have sex.


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## _Karen_Cee_ (Jun 15, 2016)

Regardless of the meaning (implied, metaphorically, or literal) the word "rape" carries with it a horribly negative connotation.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

O I don't know. Rape is also some kind of grass for pastures.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

With the talk of Fairytale relationships, I remembered the line in the Fairytale "into the Woods" a mix of numerous fairytales. Prince Charming had put the make on the Baker's wife and his wife found out. " Hey, I was raised to be Charming, not Sincere." Sort of sums up the problems with many relationships. People select the charming one, ignoring the sincere one. 
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3GFWhNBLhk[/ame]

The scene that led to that is here:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uugIPpMS0g[/ame]


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## _Karen_Cee_ (Jun 15, 2016)

haypoint said:


> " Hey, I was raised to be Charming, not Sincere." Sort of sums up the problems with many relationships. People select the charming one, ignoring the sincere one.


True dat...sincere ones (most of the time) get ignored and the one looking for a good relationship, they are the losers in the long run. 

JMHO of course.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

The charming one has had positive experiences. They've learned from them and expanded them, always learning for all the conquests, and even the few failures.
The sincere ones have no experience. They have what they think is their one saving grace. There sincere. They think that the other side just dosent get into them enough to see/find it, and so they keep forlornly hiding behind their shield of sinceredness, because, in the end, its all they have, and its better than having nothing.


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## Ellendra (Jul 31, 2013)

I have nothing to add to this discussion, but every time I see the title of this thread, the song "It's Not Me It's You" starts running through my head.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

_Karen_Cee_ said:


> True dat...sincere ones (most of the time) get ignored and the one looking for a good relationship, they are the losers in the long run.
> 
> JMHO of course.





FarmboyBill said:


> The charming one has had positive experiences. They've learned from them and expanded them, always learning for all the conquests, and even the few failures.
> The sincere ones have no experience. They have what they think is their one saving grace. There sincere. They think that the other side just dosent get into them enough to see/find it, and so they keep forlornly hiding behind their shield of sinceredness, because, in the end, its all they have, and its better than having nothing.


Let me set the record straight: I loathe Disney......so much so that my kids were NOT allowed to watch the Disney channel, we did not go to Disney World, and we only watched certain Disney movies, and we talked about it after we watched them. 
I do not like the bull hockey message that disney shovels, I do not like the message they program kids to believe..........

With that said IN REAL LIFE, there is a difference between charming and manipulation. 
Charming can be anything from holding the door, opening the car door etc.
When someone (male or female) says and does things that may or may not be sincere to get what THEY want (sex, money, etc) then THAT is not charming, it's manipulation.

Sincere, honesty, integrity sometimes isn't warm and fuzzy and romantic and mushy.......
But I will take a sincere person ALL DAY LONG over a 'charming' person.

It is so easy and so possible to be both sincere and charming.
That is a rare gem!!


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

AND, Rare gems, of the real gem and the sincere and charming person are HARD to find.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

OMG......it is the apocalypse.
Cubs win, and I agree with FBB............


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## sustainabilly (Jun 20, 2012)

FarmboyBill said:


> The charming one has had positive experiences. They've learned from them and expanded them, always learning for all the conquests, and even the few failures.
> The sincere ones have no experience. They have what they think is their one saving grace. There sincere. They think that the other side just dosent get into them enough to see/find it, and so they keep forlornly hiding behind their shield of sinceredness, because, in the end, its all they have, and its better than having nothing.


Bill, I'm pretty sure I know what you mean. At least, I can make a good guess without more details. But, consider this. In your life, have you learned more from your successes, or from your failures? 

From all I've heard and read during my life, I'd have to guess that if a person was truly being honest, most would admit that they've learned more, _and better_, lessons from their failures. I'm not saying people never learn anything from successes. Success normally means you got it right. It's easy and understandable to link that with something positive. But success, and that positive feeling, is an end result. It's easy to forget all the failed attempts that came before it.

In this case, to reckon that the charmers are the successful ones is an example of something that's counterintuitive. When something is counterintuitive, that means it appears to be contrary to what common sense would suggest. 

In your post above, you lay out the example with the charmers on one end and the sincere ones on the other. The example tends to give the impression that each trait is only owned by that group; that one group doesn't have what the other does. That's what the term 'mutually exclusive' means, by the way. 

I think I can see why you say the charmers come out ahead of the game. Because, at first glance it seems _*un*_-reasonable to you, to say that the guys who are sincere are successful. Not only have they _not_ found a lasting relationship, they also appear to be pitifully sad and hopeless. To you, they seem forlorn, and given to making excuses and laying the blame on the women. Hence, they're the losers; not successful. 

But if you think about it, the charmers also go from one relationship to the next, never finding a lasting relationship either. It seemed to me that Shrek's original post was meant to show how people who are looking for a lasting relationship keep failing because they repeat the same behaviors over and over again; behaviors that never get them what they say they want.

When you take the thinking to that final step you can see that neither group appears to be successful. But it seems to me that the sincere ones, at least have the right plan. If nothing else, they're relying on the _traits_ of honesty and integrity to shine through, not the _behavior_ of being charming. Even if it appears, at first glance, that those traits don't work, most people can tell the difference between a trait and a behavior. Because of that, they tend to gravitate towards the traits they value, even when it seems as though the behavior (charming) appears to be successful.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Laura, you didn't love watching Old Yeller over and over and over?


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

billy,
your first.
Its been so long since I was out there hunting for THE ONE, I don't remember what I knew, but as best ill guess is that, no I never learned to do anything different.
I trend to disagree with the last 1/2 of your 5th para. I only paid attention to the lucky charms ers lol. I never noticed the unlucky, loser, forlorn and sad guys.
On your 6th,
Charmers don't want to find the right one. Why should they, when they've got whoever they want, nearly whenever they want them. If they don't keep using their charms, they lose the ability. That's why they seldom successfully settle down. They know that once married, their real worth comes out. ALSO, they cant keep on charming others, just as a habit. IF they quit doing so, they would lose the confidence of victory.
On your 7th
your agreeing with me, that the sincere ones rely on honesty, integrity and they use those traits like a shield. They put them IN FRONT of themselves, carefully always looking to make sure that they ARE honest and truthful.
Charmers keep their beliefs behind them and let their charms shine through. They know they have flaws, but it dosnt matter. They can either clean up their act, or keep relying on their charms. Charms are habit forming, and hard to break, cause, why should they, they work


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## sustainabilly (Jun 20, 2012)

Good ol' FBB. Singletree just wouldn't be the same place without you here. I gotta tell you something because I believe you deserve to hear it. Whether you believe me or not after I say it, I can't help. Still yet, the way I keep score you've earned it.

I'm sure you know that some people are convinced you're wrong-headed in some of the ways you think. But, in all the time I've been here...in all the posts I've read of yours, if there's ever been a time when I saw you lose your head and go all emotional, or get to thinking the other person was attacking you personally, so you had to attack back, I can't remember it. I have no doubt there have been some times, but not near as often or regular than people who probably consider themselves your better. 

People might not agree with you, and they might even get downright nasty and defensive in response to your posts. Hell, I freely admit I've been among them; shaking my head thinking, _'What's wrong with that old man? Why don't he get it?_' Yet, time and time again you try, to the limits of your reasoning powers, to explain and sometimes defend your position _without_ resorting to the same kind of behavior you're often given. 

Unlike some, who roll through here now and then to drop off a snide comment and then roll out like petulant adolescent trolls, you demonstrate that, whether right or wrong, you're committed to keeping the conversation civil. And, a whole lot more often than a lot of folks on HT, you're also willing to admit it when you decide you're wrong about something.

For that alone, I think you've earned a heap more respect than people who let their feelings get the better of them and blind them to the fact that they're acting childish.

I'd really enjoy talking more about the things we went back and forth about above. But I've got some things I need to take care of tonight. So, I'll have to get back to you, if you've a mind to also.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Man, You've added to the script I gave you, but that's alright. Checks in the mail with a bonus lol.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

After 10yrs, ida hoped some woman here would have noticed, in me, what you have, and mentioned it as well as you did.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

whiterock said:


> Laura, you didn't love watching Old Yeller over and over and over?


I remember being in 3rd grade watching this movie at school.
I was sad he died, but I remember being mad that so many kids were upset, crying, etc. Like, really, was that the best choice of movie for these kids?

None of us were 'farm kids' so at the time, none of us 'got it'.
If we were rural kids, growing up on a farm, it would be sad, but understood.:nanner:


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

cried like a baby when I saw it. Course, I was around 10


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## sustainabilly (Jun 20, 2012)

FarmboyBill said:


> Man, You've added to the script I gave you, but that's alright. Checks in the mail with a bonus lol.


 [FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]That was a good one Bill, lol. That one got me laughing... Ya smart aleck.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Now Bill, ya old plow horse, where were we? [/FONT] 
[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Okay, first off, I know -or maybe it would be better to say- I'm thinking it's very likely, that you were commenting on haypoint's and Karen Cee's posts, directly before yours, when you made the comments in post #52. From the way I inferred that post though, I have to say that I got the impression you were making certain statements about the way things are in real life. If that's not the case, if you were simply giving a synopsis about the video clips, a book report as it were, then there really isn't anything to disagree about. [/FONT] 

[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]It also means it was wrong of me to try to show you how your thinking was skewed 'off kilter', because in that case you weren't really talking about your personal views. If that was it, I apologize. If not however, if what you wrote in post #52 directly below does reflect your views, then my response stands. What you responded with in post #59, however, seems to suggest that you _are_ defending your position. That would tell me that it was more than just a 'book report', and that some of your opinions on real life, happen to agree with what you wrote in your first post. In that case, read on. [/FONT] 

[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]FBB's Post #52:[/FONT]
â[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]*The charming one has had positive experiences. They've learned from them and expanded them, always learning for all the conquests, and even the few failures.
The sincere ones have no experience. They have what they think is their one saving grace. There sincere. They think that the other side just dosent get into them enough to see/find it, and so they keep forlornly hiding behind their shield of sinceredness, because, in the end, its all they have, and its better than having nothing.â *[/FONT] 

[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Above, you said, â*The sincere ones have no experience.â *If you meant that the sincere ones have no experience because they only experienced failure, then I disagree with that. My disagreement is related to the reason why, in post #57, I asked you, âIn your life, have you learned more from your successes, or from your failures?â, and also when I said, _â... I'd have to guess that if a person was truly being honest, most would admit that they've learned more, and better, lessons from their failures.â_ If you agree with the italicized statement, then I can't see why you wouldn't also agree that the sincere ones _did_ gain *experience* because they too, learned lessons from their failures. [/FONT] 

[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]You did answer that in post #59. You said [/FONT][FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]*âIts been so long since I was out there hunting for THE ONE, I don't remember what I knew, but as best ill guess is that, no I never learned to do anything different.â*[/FONT][FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] Fair enough. Except, I never specified 'in your own [/FONT][FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]_love life_[/FONT][FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]' when I asked the question. I never specified that, because I was referring to any problem, from any area of your life. I was referring to one of the basic life lessons most people learn, usually before or near the onset of that terrible illness called adulthood. The one that says: in order to change the outcome, you may need to be open to trying new approaches. And, if you won't do that, all the trying of the same things over and over, hoping for a positive result, just isn't going to change that outcome. 

Just because, in your own love life, you may not have learned that lesson, doesn't change the accurate observation which I believe most people [/FONT][FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]_would_[/FONT][FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] agree with; that we learn more, and more meaningful, lessons from our failures than our successes. [/FONT]Again, a logical reason for why it follows that, very probably, 'the sincere ones' learned (gained experience) from their failures. 

[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]In point of fact, it's hard for me to understand why you said it at all when by your own admission (in post #59) you said, [/FONT][FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]*âI only paid attention to the lucky charms ers lol. I never noticed the unlucky, loser, forlorn and sad guys.â *[/FONT][FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] If that's true, then why did you even make those comments in post #52? How would you even know? It can't be through experience. You said yourself you didn't pay attention to them. Maybe it was an educated guess; what they call inductive reasoning. That's a reasoning process which refers to reasoning that takes specific information and attempts to make a broader generalization, or conclusion, about it that is considered probable. But it also has to allow for the fact that the conclusion may not be accurate. But wait, once again you couldn't have had any specific information because you only paid attention to the charmers. You know what I think? I think you're trying to blow smoke up my butt. Ain't happenin' here, bucko.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I mean, read this, *â...The sincere ones have no experience. They have what they think is their one saving grace. There sincere. They think that the other side just dosent get into them enough to see/find it, and so they keep forlornly hiding behind their shield of sinceredness, because, in the end, its all they have, and its better than having nothing.â* That... sounds... like a pretty definitive statement to me. What's more, you tried to validate it, prove it's worthiness, in post#59 by saying I agreed with you. Pfft! Nope.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]You said, *â On your 7**th*[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]*your agreeing with me, that the sincere ones rely on honesty, integrity and they use those traits like a shield. They put them IN FRONT of themselves, carefully always looking to make sure that they ARE honest and truthful.*[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]About that:[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]First, I do agree that they (the sincere ones) rely on honesty and integrity, words first used in our conversation by me to flesh out the description of sincerity. Also, I agree that it's likely they would try to make sure they don't compromise those qualities. But that's about it. I don't agree that they, â*keep forlornly hiding behind their shield of sinceredness, because, in the end, its all they have, and its better than having nothing.*â Again, how would you know? More to the point, sincerity isn't something you hide behind. It's a belief you live your life by. It's something you freely give. [/FONT] 

[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Most of the people I've known in my life who have been sincere individuals, and were also honest and conducted their lives with integrity, had about them a degree of fortitude that would _not allow_ them to toss out one of the three without also compromising the others. Maybe you meant it's something they stand behind, and that's why you picked a shield. But, in that case you should've said something like a banner, or a beacon. Except that, those people who _do _truly live by that code rarely, if ever, use it like a banner. They don't wave it around, proudly proclaiming that's what they stand for. In general, they go quietly about their lives being content to demonstrate those traits through their actions, and sometimes speaking out to defend them. [/FONT] 

[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Re: (that means in reference to) *âI trend to disagree with the last 1/2 of your 5th para.â* The part you're referring to (my post #57) was based off your own words in post #52. If you disagree with that, my friend, then you're disagreeing with your own self. I do think that's a neat trick though. Just imagine how hard it would be for anyone to pin you down if you did that all the time.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]About the charmers: My point was to show that they get the same as your â...*unlucky, loser, forlorn and sad guys.â* in terms of Shrek's OP. These days, there's another label for the kind of charmer you described in post#59. Player. Over the years, I've heard plenty of players -_of both sexes_- complain they can't find â*the right oneâ*. One does wonder though, how it is you're so intimately acquainted with their qualities. [/FONT]


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Billy, U gonna have to take this in MUCH smaller bites. Alla that's WAY past my mentality to remember, dissimulate, coagulate, and try to divide the individual responses in such a way that you wouldn't be honestly but mistakenly tying them together.
If you want, Break this down in manageable bites, and ill respond hearlty to them.
BUT, you must remember, to me, it looks like a triangle. Im WAAAAAAAAAAAY out here near 70, and havnt had a relationship of any kind since 91, looking back in hindsight to what I remember when I was loose and running round in my 20s, and loosely and periodically in my 30s and 40s. Im looking way back and using hindsight, in a lot of my thoughts on stuff I havnt experienced in 25yrs.


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