# Swarm vs. package



## Handyman (Sep 11, 2009)

I'm new to the bee scene and have a couple of questions.

I'm building a TBH in the next couple of weeks and the next step is deciding on bees. If I buy a package, I need to order it now. If I can still get one, these bees would have to be shipped or trucked in from a southern state. Packages are expensive.

I've read that swarms are ideal for TBH and the whole 'natural' approach to bee keeping. One benefit is that they are more naturalized to your area than a package would be. Swarms are free.

So, should I take my chances and see if I can find a local swarm this spring?


In my reading and research, I've found references to swarm traps and swarm lure. In what circumstances are they used? Could I simply place my TBH in the yard, put lure in it and hope a swarm finds it? We do have honey bees around - we sawed some oak logs into lumber on Friday and with the 65* weather, we had a lot of bees around. I do not know of any hives around our neighborhood. 

Thanks for the help.


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## ChristopherReed (Jan 21, 2011)

With trapping or removing a swarm, They are ready to go! they are loaded up on food and stores and ready to build comb. They may or may not be or any advantage to your area, becuase they could be somebody elses bees that swarmed. But yes, really a better advantage.

Packages, the only real advantage is you are sure to get one (though this is getting less and less true, dont wait.) But the bees are from different hives, with an (usually) unrelated queen, etc.. They are not bringing the same "swarming" instinct, so they are not loaded up and ready to draw comb the same as a swarm, but they will get to it just fine. 

Try to find the best package dealer as far north as possible if you can, and if they still have any left. This is going to sound repetative from me, but the fatbee man sells small cell bee's that alot of people are putting in TBH's. I run about 10+ hives of his bees, and have not had a single problem one.

Good luck


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## tom j (Apr 3, 2009)

If it was me I would order a package ,, a package is easy to put in a TBH as you do not have any frames ,,,( like in a hive or nuc ) whats hard to get a TBH is when you have a langs worth hive and go to a TB ... then you have to get them from the frames were they have brood ,, or just shake them in and let them start with no brood .. as for a swarm ,, you can make another TBH and have it ready , so if you do run into a swarm then you just have 2 hives ,,and that way to if the first one builds to much you have one ready for a split ,, and if no swarm or split your ready for next year , so when this years hive winters next year you only have to make 2 more TBH ( you always need one extra ready for the next hive ) ( can you tell I have the obsession )


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## BjornBee (Jan 17, 2011)

Get a package wherever you can get one. Most will be sold out soon.

Swarms have some problems for what you want...

*You may not get a swarm.

*You may get a swarm later in the season and miss much of the main flow.

*And you run the risk of superdcedure and requeeeing, which happens in about 50% of swarms due to the primary swarm having an older queen, which nature tries to replace as soon as it can.

With a package, youi can get an early start. Most packages are brought up well before the main flow and weeks ahead of the first swarms of the season. Yes there is some cost involved, but money spent on packages that can take advantage of the flow translates into bees not needing so much feed later. 

The key to packages is considering requeening them later with a more hardy stock queen. Northern raised queens are available later in the summer usually in June and July. All packages are southern raised stock. So I think getting a package up and running then consider requeening, may be the best option.

If you catch a swarm later...good for you. Then you will have two hives.

I've seen way too many beekeepers sold on the idea that they should wait for a swarm, and they never get one. Or the one they did get was late in the season. Usually those pipe dreams are long gone the second spring when they still don't have bees.

And with TBH beekeeping, getting them up and running as soon as possible is in your best bet.


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## indypartridge (Oct 26, 2004)

Handyman said:


> So, should I take my chances and see if I can find a local swarm this spring?


It's your gamble, not ours. If it were me, I'd get a package so that I'd know for sure I would be getting bees. Then I'd get a 2nd TBH ready for any swarms.

Some years are more "swarmy" than others - depends on weather and other factors that you can't predict ahead of time. If you want to increase your chances at getting a swarm, make up some flyers to get your name & phone number out to anyone who may get a call about swarms: county extension office, fire dept, state apiary inspectors, exterminators, librarians, etc.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

It all depends on if you want bees THIS year for sure.

If you want to get started this year - order a package.
If you want to go cheap - wait for a swarm. (And you don't have to wait on one.) If you don't have any local beekeepers that puts ads in your local paper for swarms - you can put one in yourself and anytime someone finds a swarm - chances are you will be called. 

A simple ad "Honeybee swarms wanted" with your phone number will work. But don't be too surprised if the "swarm" you go to get isn't a hornet's nest, or some other bee. (Many people think any bee is a honey bee.)


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Just pray every one in the area clips the news paper ad and saves it in the off chance they see a swarm.

Better Option is to go to amimal control in your area and get your name on the list, Police depatments, fire departments USDA office and county extention office to name a few.

The police here call me with every report of some stinging insect but I have gotten many swarms too. The police are slowly learning to have the person call me so I can give them the 20 questions quiz.

 Al


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## Handyman (Sep 11, 2009)

tom j said:


> If it was me I would order a package ,, a package is easy to put in a TBH as you do not have any frames ,,,( like in a hive or nuc ) whats hard to get a TBH is when you have a langs worth hive and go to a TB ... then you have to get them from the frames were they have brood ,, or just shake them in and let them start with no brood .. as for a swarm ,, you can make another TBH and have it ready , so if you do run into a swarm then you just have 2 hives ,,and that way to if the first one builds to much you have one ready for a split ,, and if no swarm or split your ready for next year , so when this years hive winters next year you only have to make 2 more TBH ( you always need one extra ready for the next hive ) ( can you tell I have the obsession )



HOLY HELL! I'll be building hives full-time!!


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## Handyman (Sep 11, 2009)

BjornBee said:


> Get a package wherever you can get one. Most will be sold out soon.
> 
> Swarms have some problems for what you want...
> 
> ...


When you requeen, is it as simple as catching the queen and inserting a new one? Wouldn't the bees drive out the 'foreign' queen?


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## BjornBee (Jan 17, 2011)

You want to kill the old queen (Or remove her into another hive via a split) and then wait a minimum of 3 hours. 24 hours is better. As soon as the queen is removed, the bees will experience a drop in the queen's pheromones. They will quickly realize they have no queen.

You put in the new queen priotected by the cage she comes in. After a 48-72 hour period which the bees will be eating through the candy plug on the cage, they will accept their new queen will little problems. They can either get her out at that time by eating the candy or you can do a manual release.

Hope this helps.


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## Handyman (Sep 11, 2009)

Yes, that does help. Thanks


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## ChristopherReed (Jan 21, 2011)

I would leave the plug in longer, say 3-4 days, then pull it and let them release her. If they are "attacking (balling)" the cage, I would wait a bit longer to pull the plug. It also helps when removing the old queen and putting in the new caged one to smoke the hive real good. Helps mask the old queen. Be prepared though, they still may kill her when the get her out. It happens... So dont freak out, just be prepared.

Alot of swarms have more than one queen, Over 20 has been reported in one swarm. And the swarm didnt "swarm" because she was old or incappable. They would have killed her. If you put in a swarm, she starts to lay. Thats all you need to do, If they superceed her, So be it, They know more about what they need than you do. If your bees are dark black and they sting the fire out of you everytime you fool with the hive. Pinch her and find a new queen. lol...

If you have open brood and the queen, Sucks, the bees are HOT, or you kill her for some reason. They can raise their own. Just keep an eye on it to see that they do. If not just order one overnighted from somewhere. You got a little time.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

The two most common queen cages are the Benton 3 hole cage & the JZBZ plastic cage. The Benton 3 hole cage is just a small bloch of wood with 3 (about 1/2 inch) holes drill part way thru and a couple of 1/8 inch holes in the end. A screen covers the 3 holes and cork plugs block the end hole with a candy plug under the cork on one of the ends. I install the queen If just (foundation) by pushing a pair of finish nails in the end cork/candy end. Remove the cork and hand the cage by squeezeing the frame top bars againest the finish nails. I do not punch a hole in the candy as some bee keepers do. I have found the hives seem to take longer to except a carnie queen so the extra day or so gives them more time to except them.



















One reason to hang with the entrance *up.* when the attdents die they don't plug the entrance up.










The JZBZ cage is plastic whit the neck full of candy for the girls to eat out to release the queen. These cages I just squeeze between drawn comb or lay on the bottom rail of foundation frames squeezed together. 

I my self use the JZBZ cages and buy them from Mann Lake. I find them much easier to get a queen into them and closed up. they also beingh plastiac take a soak in a bleach bath to clean and reuse much better than the wood ones.




























Lots of queen suppliers will ship the queens over night thru USPS or UPS. I like UPS for thiws my self as our local postal workers are nothing to write home about. My last queen thru USPS rode around in the carriers car all day. We had expected a call to come pick her up as others who live in other postal area get. We got a card in the mail box we had a package at the post office which was closed. Next day I called and told them to hold her till I got there to pick her up don't put her in the carriers car. When I got there eand asked why thay hadn't called the day before they said they thought it was just a package. Then I showed them the Live Bees stamped all over the package AND asked how they ever passed the exam to get the job when they could not read.

 Al


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## tom j (Apr 3, 2009)

last year I was going to get some in the mail ,, asked the mail girl if she would care ,, she said if they are in a package ( I told her what kind of box they would be in ) she didn't care and would bring , or call so I could pick up ether way was fine with her .. but I didn't get them from the mail .. I think she kind of liked that I asked her ..


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## Handyman (Sep 11, 2009)

Cool.

Great pictures!


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## Handyman (Sep 11, 2009)

According to the Dadant website, they do not sell bees. I decided to call them today, just to double check because one of their stores isn't far away. Sure enough, they sell packages and have some still available! They are 3# packages, Italians, from Georgia, arrive the last weekend of April, and are $88. Price seems about the same as everywhere else and I won't have to travel far at all.


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## ChristopherReed (Jan 21, 2011)

Good deal, Glad you found some. Buying them close to home is a good thing vs. having them come thru the post office. If there is a ton of dead ones in the bottom, something can be done about it then.


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## tom j (Apr 3, 2009)

>> HOLY HELL! I'll be building hives full-time!! <<
I see no one explained to you that bees are an obsession .. you start with 1 or 2 hives and then no mater how many you get , there not enough ..
from then on you have the obsession .


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