# So disappointed in the mule.......



## CJBegins (Nov 20, 2009)

Heard a commotion this morning and went out to check and there he was with the 3 week old calf dangling from his mouth spinning her around like a ragdoll. Just makes me sick. It wasn't like he was standing in that lot eating hay and she happened by and he grabbed her. He had to have gone looking for her. The rest of the herd was on the other side of the property. He was looking for trouble. 
This is the mule we rescued last year that had been abandoned on some property that was foreclosed on. He was wild and scared to death. We worked with him alot and have only progressed to him approaching to see if there are treats. We did geld him early last spring. 
My thinking is it's time to put him down. I can't see passing on this problem to someone else. He is a beautiful animal. I had a suspision that he was chasing the cattle but I hadn't seen him do it, I could tell by the way the calve reacted when he approached. 
Anyone have any ideas? I have never had a horse or other equine savage a calf before. Had a dog attack a calf before and he only last about an hour after that.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

So sorry to hear this. I've had horses I've not been able to keep with cattle but because they would "herd" them ... young working ranch horses with a lot of cow instinct that got bored ... and have seen a few mares that would kick cattle off hay on winter feedgrounds.

I've never had a mule, though I've heard they can be nasty with other stock. I've never had a horse actually 'savage' a calf or any other animal like this. I'm afraid I agree with you on putting him down.


----------



## CIW (Oct 2, 2007)

Donkeys defend a territory unlike horses whose territory is a perimeter around their group and changes as the band moves. The donkey is where a mules reaction style comes from.
Can see no reason to put an animal down for being put in a situation and doing what is normal for them. Many mules will react that way when they see something new come into thier territory. Its what makes them good guard animals.
Many times a stallion will kill a baby that isn't his after bringing a new mare into his band. It happens commonly in the wild. That is why the mare goes off by herself to give birth and will return to the band as the foal strengthens to a point that they can stay out of harms way.
Nature is not the gentle being that we try to profess it as. 
Seperate the mule from the cattle till the calves get bigger. Or sell the mule.
Note; You don't want to bring little kids around a mule or donkey. They may have a similar reaction. Seeing them as a threat in their territory.


----------



## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I agree, as horrific as it was, try to rehome him in a place where he will be alone, or with horses. If it is his instinct to protect, you might be able to find another situation where he won't feel he needs to protect.

We have several mule and donkey owners here, I hope they can weigh in.


----------



## Stonybrook (Sep 22, 2007)

I don't think she is worried only about the mule killing the calf. It sounds to me like she is also worried that it has made little progress in ground training since they have had it, and does not want to pass on a problem animal to someone else. When horses, mules, and donkeys can be found for free on Craigslist, who wants to take one that obviously has issues? Maybe there is someone out there who would, but I think most people will pass him up if they know the story about him. Just my personal opinion.


----------



## CJBegins (Nov 20, 2009)

I am open to ideas. We have donkies, several horses, this mule and a small herd of cattle. This mule took a while to figure out which group he belonged to when he first came to live here. He has finally settled into being a "horse". The Jack made it clear he wasn't donkey enough to be one of "them". 

One day I had walked outside and looked into this same lot. I had a bale of hay and 3 yearling calves eating, gate was open and there was Monte the mule, looking like I had busted up a party. I knew something was going on but he is pretty slick. He just dropped his head and casually walked out of the pen and caught up with the horses. He had be in the lot harassing the calves. They were looking pretty stressed out but there was no blood drawn. This baby calf is another story.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I used to have a cow horse that was like that ... she would chase cattle and would bite them, but not savage them ... and she would quit as soon as she heard the door open at the house or heard anyone outside. Sneaky. She was too good a cow horse to get rid of but the only thing we could do was simply keep her in with horses and not ever put her out with any of the cattle. 

If you can't separate the mule from the cattle I think your only choices would be to find someone who will take him who has no cattle (or other livestocK) and is competent to deal with his other issues or put him down.


----------



## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Right now is the time to decide if you if you are really cut out to own and train equines. This mule cannot be blamed for acting on instincts. If you truly feel that you cannot deal with this animal find someone who can. Give him away if you have to, but at least give this mule a chance with a competent trainer. 

If you decide that you want to be the one to turn this mule around you need to rethink and relearn everything you know about training.

I am about the last person in the world who would suggest keeping an equine in a tie stall, but this is the exception to the rule. This mule needs to be isolated until he learns that _you_ are his "herd". You are the dominant member of this herd, and he will submit to you in all manners.

SFM, Hale Jeffers once told me that he saw a Shire stallion pick up an 800 lb bull by the withers and carry it around the corral.


----------



## horsepoor21 (Mar 14, 2007)

My brother in law's Percheron gelding picked up my 2 year old arab mare by the withers and shook her like a rag doll ! Scared me to death but she was fine and was much more respectful of him afterwards !

Our donkey picked up one of my goats by the withers and shook her when we first got him . It did not hurt her but they are much more respecful of him (they used to try to push him around ,walk under him ,etc) .

Is the calf hurt ? Dead ?


----------



## barnyardgal (Sep 21, 2009)

I had a minature donkey done that same thing to one of my goats & if i had not been home & seen it & got the goat away from the donkey,he would had killed the goat as he had his neck all bloody..and the said donkey was raised with goats-go figure...so i sold the donkey to some people that had horses only & also told the people what the donkey had done to the goat so i warned them before they bought him..sure hated to sell the donkey but the goats was here first..


----------



## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

My horse years ago couldn't be kept with cattle. Would chase, kick, bite, whatever to run them off 'his' food...

He'd been abused years prior to me getting him. Don't know whether that had an adverse affect on him? But I had to separate him.

I guess my point is what the other posters are saying. Get him to someone that doesn't have other species. Sounds like he won't tolerate them. You should give fair warning to whomever takes him too. He may be a nice riding/driving animal but just not with other species.

Sorry you have to deal with this. My hot Arab picked up a goat by the back, shook it and flung it when it wandered into his pen. No real damage to the goat but I was shocked by the behavior until I thought about the Arab's territorial attitude. Good luck!


----------



## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

I have heard of this happening quite a bit with mules and other livestock, so I believe to a certain degree it can be expected. Just as some other species of guardians(dogs), some are cut out for guarding and others are not. I have heard of mules killing newborn goat kids and lambs in a killing spree fashion. I think they just recognise the "new" animals as not belonging and it triggers a territorial response. At the same time, I recall reading a thread about someone wanting to buy a mule for guarding and it seemed even though a couple people said they did it successfully, almost everyone advised her it was donkeys and not mules that were used to guard. A few of the posters had stories similar to yours about mules, being bought for guardians.

Personally, I would attempt to put the mule up for adoption. Even if you had to give it away. Just make sure you are up front about it's past and any behavior that you know of. He sounds like he just needs a place where he's not a guardian animal and he has some one on one with an experienced long ear trainer.


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

I don't understand why people are coming down so harsh on him.
From what I understand of his post, this mule is seeking out other animals to harass. 
While all mules are territorial to a degree, there are plenty out there (and lots of them are looking for new homes in this market) that DON'T attack other animals. 
This one not only attacks them, but seeks them out and gets into their pens to do so. Last I noticed, a your average newborn calf was bigger then your average 3 year old child. 

_Many times a stallion will kill a baby that isn't his after bringing a new mare into his band. It happens commonly in the wild. That is why the mare goes off by herself to give birth and will return to the band as the foal strengthens to a point that they can stay out of harms way._
It happens, but isn't common or often. The reason a mare leaves is because _other mares_ will steal a newborn - not fear of the stallion. The mare has to bond with her baby so the baby knows who mom is. Far more often the stallion is pretty careful of the babies. I've seen them defend babies and groom and lick them, stand over them and guard them while they sleep.
Because abberent behavior happens in the wild, doesn't make it _not_ abberent behavior.

If I was the OP, I would also be worried about what this mule is doing and considering the horse market and the fact that with equines so cheap, very few people are willing to put any kind of professional training on one and very few have any kind of real work for any to do that if I passed on this difficult-to-work-with mule that I already know has it in for smaller critters that 1) He would be very likely to be abused
and 2) this is a lawsuit waiting to bite me. 

As far as I see it, Mr Mule needs a job. Of the _rub sweatmarks off him daily_ variety. And he needs to be given this job by someone who knows mules. And if he can't have that, then perhaps the kindest thing would be a bullet. Mules live a long time and this one has baggage. Who wants to sentence him to 40 years of Pass The Mule and have God only knows what happen to him?


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I do not have mules, mind you, but I know a number of people who do have them and I know a bit about what can be expected from a mule.

This is not uncommon behavior from a mule, just as it is not uncommon for a mule to despise dogs and other canines. Mules and donkeys both can be a danger to smaller livestock such as goats, sheep, calves, chickens. I do not know if this can be trained out. For one thing, I think this mule feels it is fun and derives enjoyment from it. I don't think this mule is necessarily dangerous to people, not is it derranged or deviant in some fashion. If he is otherwise useful or enjoyable to your family, you will just need to find a way to keep him separate from the calves. Otherwise, sell him or give him away, with full disclosure.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

I've ridden mules for years. Bred for them out of my Mammoth jack and broodmare band.
No confinement here. All critters roam free within the perimeter fence. 

I recently got a new-to-me mule. The pigs immediately fell in love with him and vice versa. There's always chickens on his back -- riding along or just sitting there. My livestock protection dog also has a good relationship with the mule.

I've never had a problem with all the mules here and any other critters.

Now folks who get any ol' DONKEY thinking it will protect their livestock get a shock when the goats are run into heart attack or the donkey picks them up and shakes them until they're dead; kills dogs; other stock. Smart folks get guard donkeys from breeders of livestock guardian donkeys.


----------



## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

I don't think there would be many mules left if every mule that attacked critters smaller than itself was put down.


----------



## CJBegins (Nov 20, 2009)

Fortunately for us the donkeys like the cows, calves, pigs and smaller animals. They don't mind the dogs too much either. 
I have read all the posts here and thought back about stories that my father has told me from his young years working mules. I can remember him telling some stories about mules that would raise the hairs on the back of my neck. 
I really like this mule. He has a lot of character and has come a long way in coping with his fears. He has many behaviors that are different from the horses or donkeys and I feel that I continue to learn with every interaction with him. So.....my next step for him to stall him. I will also stall one of the two year olds next to him so he isn't by his self. If that becomes a problem, then he will be the only one in a stall. He will be worked with daily. I have a harness that I have owned for several years that should fit him eventually.....I am in no hurry. As far as I am concerned, he will never have an opportunity to injure another calf or other small animal. 
I have spoke with a couple of other people that train and raise only mules. They gave me similar opinions and then said when I got tired of messing with him they would take him....with full disclosure. 

PS The baby calf is okay, it's gonna take a while for the skin to grow back over her ear. She was real shocky for the whole day. She would tremble and pee. I was worried she had internal injuries. The next morning I let her and her momma out of the stall and she was bouncing around like nothing had happened. She's a lucky girl.

Thanks for all the input. Carla


----------



## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Carla, I would put the mule in the stall with _NO_ other animals around. Equines are herd animals and this is one instance where you can use this to your advantage. _You_ become the herd. The mule bonds to _you_. Of course you need to become the Alpha member of the relationship. When you keep an equine alone like this they want to see you. They look forward to the contact and they are much more attentive and willing to please you.


----------



## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Carla

As a mule owner, I would separate Mr. Mule and not stall him, but put him in a small(ish) round pen by himself (stalling him will likely make him antsy and harder to handle just as stalling a healthy horse makes them a mite stir crazy). Have Mr. Mule be totally dependent upon you for food/hay and water,.

interact with Mr. Mule daily, even if you are just sitting in a chair reading - eventually he will get curious and want to see what you are doing.

Always be firm, fair and consistent - mules remember everything and they have a right good sense of fair and not fair. 

As far as the mule attacking the calf - some mules just like some horses won't tolerate a critter that is "different" than they are, some are not tolerant of dogs, cats, varmints, coyotes, calves, goats or sheep. Depends on the mule. 
My mule loves a goat or calf, and will cross ten acres of pasture to stomp a dog flat. Go figure..the farm dogs figured it out and stay out of her paddock. she'll allow a mini pony to eat her feed though and will defend that pony till death against a dog or coyote.

To get a good guard donk or mule one should really buy them from a person who breeds them as those people will raise the donk/mule with the animals it is meant to guard (similar to how Pyrs and other livestock guardians are raised). The guard donk/mule becomes "bonded" to that type of animal and it becomes "his" herd. 

Mules are curious critters once they get over their initial suspicion of things - my mule took three days to decide that a ball in her pasture was a fun toy..and she latched onto that ball and carried it around till it went flat. crazy old mule.

A good mule is worth more than gold, it's the getting them there that makes the journey worthwhile. My mule will likely outlive me, she's 28 now and still looks 12.


----------



## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

I am going to elaborate on sidepassers post a little. Make sure that all of your contact with this mule is on your terms, not his. He may approach you, but he may not enter your personal space. Treats are a good way to teach this, and you can do it from outside the pen. When he approaches for the treat do not let him have it when he extends his mouth into "your" space. Only treat him when he remains in his space and he will allow you to extend your hand into his space and not reach out. If he grabs for the treat when you offer it pull it away. When he takes the treat the only thing that should be moving is his lips. 

It would be helpful if you told us how far along he is. Will he stand tied? will he lead well? Will he take a bit? 

If he is not halter broke you will need to have a very strong and safe place to tie him, and a stout halter and lead rope. Nothing will set back your halter training back further than the mule learning that he can break equipment, or if he gets hurt.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== My mule will likely outlive me, she's 28 now and still looks 12. ===


A fella stopped to talk to me while I was out riding yesterday. Said my mule looked like a young one. I asked him to guess the mule's age. He was way off! My mule's 23.


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

CJBegins said:


> l. He will be worked with daily. I have a harness that I have owned for several years that should fit him eventually.....I am in no hurry. As far as I am concerned, he will never have an opportunity to injure another calf or other small animal.


When I was first learning one of the things I was taught was "there are very few behavior problems that can't be cured by _lots_ of wet saddle blankets" Glad you will work your mule. They need a job same as a dog needs a job. 

I am also very happy that your calf will be ok and that there are mule-knowledgeable folks around and a home that knows mules if you need one. Lots of mules end up being abused because they are so different from horses, That's why I would be so nervous selling one and I commend you for doing what you have to to make sure it doesn't come to that for your mule. Go you!.


----------



## CJBegins (Nov 20, 2009)

I was able to approach him and he would face me. He almost always would get so anxious about my presence that he would begin weaving and then dive to another area and weave again. My goal was to walk to him and touch him and back off. What I should have done was sent him in circles until he was too tired to be evasive. 

Monte was an absolute nut when we took him to the vet to be casturated last year. There wasn't a chute that would hold him or enough drugs to sedate him. He was thrown and hog tied after lots of drugs were given. It was pretty brutal. 

After his castration, I had hip surgery so was unable and very uncomfortable with getting in a pen with him. 

Well, spring is here and I have had my wake up call. Monte, we have work to do.


----------



## starjj (May 2, 2005)

I had a donkey that tolerated horses but he was only really happy when he was with cattle. He was raised with cattle and probably pretty much thought he was one of them. He never bothered my goats. The horses on the other hand thought it was great fun to run the cattle around the fields.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

How old is he? If he was allowed to mature as a "Jack" mule he may never change. I cut my mules at eighteen months to two years old. Young mules even if they are cut, play very rough. Often drawing blood on each other or anything they can catch. I have two, four year old john mules that are half brothers, They were raised together, and still play like babies. One or the other is always recovering from a bite or hoof mark. 

With a lot of patience you may be able to first tame, then train him. But if he was left a stud until he matured, I would never trust him with other livestock. If he is under five years old you may have a chance, if he is older than five you will have to find someone who really knows how to train mules. Mules are not like horses, they don't act like horses, and they don't think like horses. 

Don't get me wrong, I like horses. Not everybody can ride mules, and horses are better than walking.


----------



## CJBegins (Nov 20, 2009)

We had him gelded last year. Best guess was he was 2 1/2 to 3. He has grown some since we have had him. I completely understand that mules are not like horses in any way, just like donkeys aren't like horses. He enjoys hanging with the horses and definitely wrestles with the geldings. They get pretty rough sometimes. Someone is always bruised or swollen, nothing major.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

I've raised a lot of mule foals out of my Mammoth jack and broodmare band. I've never seen the behaviors you speak of from my stock or others. My boys were gelded at 6 months old as are most of the youngsters I know of. The expression, "nothing meaner than an entire 3 year old mule" comes to mind!

I've handled all my horses, mules and donkeys the same. All raised the same way. No special training for any of them. Like all my critters, they roamed free on acreage, not confined, and had daily attention.

I raised mules back when the economy was in good shape and they sold very well.


----------



## CJBegins (Nov 20, 2009)

Remember, this guy was abandoned and left on property that was foreclosed on. A friend of mine bought the property and discovered the mule. That is how he came to live here.

He is a rotten cuss. He managed to get a gate off the hinges and got into the pasture the the cow with the calf was. The dogs alerted us this time before any damage is done. The darn hinges are turned opposite of each other even. I see a hobble in his near future.


----------

