# Are You A "Mortal Threat" to Utilities?



## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

*Will Utilities Embrace Distributed Energy?*



http://www.technologyreview.com/view/514526/will-utilities-embrace-distributed-energy/


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## wkyongae (Mar 7, 2006)

Yes, by employing simple energy saving strategies. 1000sq ft home. Olympia WA

Such as: Turn the electric hot water heater off when not needed. 20 gal tank takes 1/2 hour 
to cycle.
Turn lights off in rooms not needed or occupied. 
Never heat or cool rooms or areas in house not being used.
Live a little cooler in winter and warmer in summer. 

Just these alone cuts our bill to a low of $24 per month in summer and a high of $120 per month in winter. Our home is total electric.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

I don't see much of a threat to the utilities at this point....especially if the subsidies go away. 

You can't compete with grid power, price wise, when you throw in the initial investment.....and most people aren't gonna front the initial investment even if it did compete.

The holy grail is still cheap, efficient, local energy storage....now if THAT comes into play, they might have more to worry about.

Until then, I suspect home generation is going to be mostly for us oddballs.


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## wkyongae (Mar 7, 2006)

Agreed, I've spent all winter exploring options. From thermal-siphoning hot water tanks to solar for our house. Wife still says if it cannot be built for ten bucks not worth doing.


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## Ky-Jeeper (Sep 5, 2010)

http://www.marathonengine.com/index.html I saved this html sometime back. I also read at that time Japan was utilizing this more and more of this type of power.


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## Ky-Jeeper (Sep 5, 2010)

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1114/p01s02-usec.html


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Sorry wkyongae but your wife is a bit off in her thinking.......

A good mechanic needs good tools to perform efficiently . . . last I looked 'good' tools are not cheap..

To accrue "Good Solar tools" takes more than ten bucks . . .
But once you have those tools, then the pleasure factor kicks in as you enjoy the electrical energy that the Sun is creating.............


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Microturbines have been around for awhile. Those if adopted by small businesses with access to cheap natural gas could cause a significant loss of demand depending on the nature of the loads. When you think about it, Edison, backed by the big financiers of his time, was the proponent of the distributed energy production concept. Westinghouse and Tesla won the war and knocked Edison off his pedestal with the centralized energy production concept. Of course that's not taught in the history books. Tesla has never gotten the credit he deserves. He alone developed the theoretical basis for civilization as we know it.

It's interesting that developments have almost gotten us to the point that the distributed energy concept may become viable once again. Maybe Edison will have the last laugh.


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## wkyongae (Mar 7, 2006)

Jim-mi 
Unknowingly you are making my wife's point. She is fully aware of costs for home power requirements as is the power company's around the world. Hence the cost of production (cost<>savings) spread over time. Too much up front cost lowers pleasure till cost is recouped. Enjoy lower cost now increase pleasure now. Oddly, this view is used in business as well as in the home and certainly when thinking about the power company's history. If we can develop much lower solar costs that even someone on welfare can afford I can see Edison having the last laugh. Till then well......Edison isn't laughing yet. 
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/members/jim-mi/


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

What do you pay for independence ....??

I love my independence .. . . . . 

And I don't let the argument of "pay back time" spoil things

Tom and I have been laughing for some while . . .

Sorry your welfare argument doesn't hold water.
Most of the welfare "peoples" I see only care about where their next cigarette and beer will come from........so they can sit and get further dumbed down watching junk TV.

It takes brain enough to look over that fiat dollar bill to get into renewable energy.........


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## hefty lefty (Aug 22, 2013)

wkyongae said:


> Unknowingly you are making my wife's point. She is fully aware of costs for home power requirements as is the power company's around the world. Hence the cost of production (cost<>savings) spread over time. Too much up front cost lowers pleasure till cost is recouped. Enjoy lower cost now increase pleasure now. Oddly, this view is used in business as well as in the home and certainly when thinking about the power company's history. If we can develop much lower solar costs that even someone on welfare can afford I can see Edison having the last laugh. Till then well......Edison isn't laughing yet.
> [/URL]


He won't be either.

The bottom line is that even at a moderate NEGATIVE interest cost utility power still comes out way ahead economically over producing it on a small scale. That's why businesses will not invest in cogen or other relatively modest capital intensive power saving, in most instances, even when the numbers make huge sense over a relatively short payback period-unless there are both huge government subsidies and the perceived threat that if the business still doesn't do it the government will punish them somehow (such as withholding some contract or giving the business especially intense scrutiny). Every private profit oriented business I know of that has made a substantial alt-energy investment either was offered a big government carrot or a stick. Usually both.

For real world businesses it is ALL about cash flow, over the next quarter. That's IT. Under "the free market" it has to be so. 

We learned this lesson when designing a unit to burn waste burger joint oil for heat, back when chain burger joints had to pay several thousand dollars a location per year to have the mess hauled off rather than the other way around. If the payoff wasn't "30 DAYS" they were not interested-period. Plus, there had to be absolutely zero skill or attention on the part of restaurant personnel. Any and all maintenance had to be provided by contract people on 24 hour call. They didn't care about next quarter, they cared about next WEEK.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Interesting thread. Power companies here in WA, and maybe everywhere for all I know, are required to buy "green" power at a higher rate than they sell it. That only irritates them at the moment but if a significant number of people were selling power to them I would think it would indeed become a threat to their business model.


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## John_Canada (Aug 17, 2013)

I'm actually at this cross roads myself. Had a very knowledgeable architect tell me to not waste my time with solar, geo, etc etc. because:

1. The unfront and maintenance costs will never outweigh the pay over time theory.
2. The money you invested to save money over time could have likely been invested making 10% instead.

It then becomes a matter of independence over cash on hand or investment. Just not sure on this one but I am seeing small solutions come out that save A LOT of money and require little up front. I think in my lifetime (44 now) I will see the grid become "the grid plus about 25% of homes off it". I still remember the movies Atlas Shrugged 1 and 2 and the concept of free power and what the implications of that are. But for now, I can hope for better use of the energy resources we have. Especially when Canada is twice the cost of energy as US and selling what resources we have off to china as fast as we find it!


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