# Off Grid with a Large Family -do able?



## UUmom2many (Apr 21, 2009)

I'm just at the beginning of my off grid education. I've been reading but I'm still concerned we're not going to be able to do it 100%. 

There are a few factors that I just can't understand to overcome. We're in FL so the AC issue is of course there. Does anyone power an AC unit off solar?

1. there are a ton of us. We have a lot of laundry. There are times that it's either too cold or too humid to hang laundry outside so using the W/D is pretty much imparative. 

2. We have a fridge and a freezer that run all the time. I'm looking at propane for the stove as using wood in the summer is just not an option. I will look at building an outdoor oven possibly solar maybe wood burning. I cook a lot so there's that. 

Our electric usage for this past month was 81 kwhpd  it jumped double since December though. It usually runs between 40 -60 except in July where it's more like 70. This is the first time in a year it's been this high. I attribute it to the lack of insulation in the house we're in. It's OLD, drafty when you open the cabinets in the kitchen on the floor the temp drops 10 degrees in the cold. We have to use space heaters -like 4 of them- for downstairs since there is only 1 vent for the AC (ac was put in after the house was built so no way to run ducts) and we have electric heat which we'd compensate with a wood stove in the new house. We're also going to put in pos hot water for the sinks and we already collect rain water for the garden which we'd probably put in a solar hot water heater. 

I can see the room for change and improvement. If we lived in a better insultated house (we literally have cracks to the outside in places but we're working on it) I might feel more confident in solar meeting our needs. 

I have lots of kids that we homeschool and I try and cook mostly from scratch so there's a lot of electric usage going on every day and night here. 

Any ideas on what we could do or are we just looking at an extensive solar system in the new house? 

Sorry it's so long. 

Crystal


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## okiemom (May 12, 2002)

you can do anything as long as you have the money for it. I wanted to buy a property that would have been off grid. We couldn't wing it at in OK you really have to have AC. I do anyway. I figured it out off of our usage. it would have cost about $40-60K to run a small ac unit. Couldn't do it. we passed. solar is getting cheaper all the time. If you can be both solar and have land ties that would be great for the times you use more.


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## conscious (Jan 4, 2005)

UUmom2many said:


> I'm just at the beginning of my off grid education. I've been reading but I'm still concerned we're not going to be able to do it 100%.
> 
> There are a few factors that I just can't understand to overcome. We're in FL so the AC issue is of course there. Does anyone power an AC unit off solar?
> 
> ...


What about doing laundry at a laundromat? Also, have you thought about an earth bermed/underground house to eliminate the need for a/c?


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## UUmom2many (Apr 21, 2009)

The time it would take to wash at a mat 7 loads a WEEK would be ridiculous. Plus our land is out in the middle of no where so there's gas costs too. we'd have to take the Astro pulling a trailer for the laundry into town. Then what happens if we can't get there? I will and do use a line to dry when the weather permits but between the 100% humid days (which doesn't dry laundry) and the rainy season it's limited. I will have a large porch so I could probably hang lines there even whne it's raining. 

We looked into underground but we have such a high water table and flood zones we don't feel comfortable building like that here. Earth bearmed...maybe but I'm not sure where we'd get the dirt, we have a lot of sandy soil in FL.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

First thing you need to do is cut your use, as I assume you don't have an unlimited checkbook. 

Your current use ( figuring 60kw/hr/day ) is about 1,800 month.....which is twice the national average of 900. You would need a 15-20kw solar power system to get in that range. Assuming $6-8 watt installed, you're looking at $100,000 on the low end.

You need to seal up, caulk up, insulate, change light bulbs, change habits, change your cooking/water heating/dryer to gas, or solar in the case of water heating ( the cheapest form of active solar power ).....and do whatever you need to get down under 1,000kw/hr/month....and preferably a lot less.
Conservation is many, many times cheaper than generation.

You mention a new house. IF you're building, you have an excellent opportunity to cut your power use vastly. In Florida, I would look at LOTS of mass in the floors/walls. DO NOT build a traditional "stick" house. Build what they built in the pre-AC days ( only today, you get the advantage of better forms of insulation as well )....mass in floors/walls to moderate temperature swings. Insulated slab floors, concrete block walls, doubled, with 3-4" foam between....R-60 overhead insulation.....high ceilings with fans....whole house fans for early/late cooling season. I did this type thing in my house, and it can be 90 outside, and 75 inside with no AC. Also, instead of central AC, consider zoned units like Mitsubishi ductless "mini-slim" ( Google them ) units. Great to cool/dehumidify one area instead of a whole house.

Get all that done, THEN you can start looking at generation.

Also, I wouldn't be looking at whether it's do-able.....if you look down the road, I think it's a case of "no choice".....if this "cap and trade" crapola passes, electric bills are going to double at least......so the best idea is to start figuring out NOW how you're going to use a LOT less, and beat the crowd.


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi,
I agree with Andy -- you need to work the conservation hard first.

I'm just curious -- why do you want to go off grid?

Gary


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## UUmom2many (Apr 21, 2009)

We're on one limited income with 7 people. We don't make a lot. We might have to rethink our stick frame house then...we were going to go with plans for a 20x38 stick on piers using the attic as livable space. I'll have to talk to hubby. We're building out of pocket with our own work. I know we can do better. I know we use a lot.

I don't want to put any additional money into this house. We're never going to get it back and we won't be here that much longer. This month was the highest it's ever been. Even in July last year it was only 71. I'm not sure what we can do in this house to make it better. 

Gary - our goal is to live off the land and get as close to 100% self sufficient as possible which might be around 50-60% in actuality. I really hate relying on the electric co. like I said because it fluxuates so greatly, prices rise etc. Plus it's just not in sync with what we want to do with our lives, how we want to live and raise our kids. I don't like my kids thinking that power is a given with no concious thought as to how it gets to the outlet. 

If something were to happen to Dh's job I want to be secure. We get hurricanes here and power goes out sometimes for a week so security with that also. Then there is the freedom of not worrying about a bill every month our $300 electric bill each month could buy a lot of 45w panels over the course of a year.


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## conscious (Jan 4, 2005)

UUmom2many said:


> The time it would take to wash at a mat 7 loads a WEEK would be ridiculous. Plus our land is out in the middle of no where so there's gas costs too. we'd have to take the Astro pulling a trailer for the laundry into town. Then what happens if we can't get there? I will and do use a line to dry when the weather permits but between the 100% humid days (which doesn't dry laundry) and the rainy season it's limited. I will have a large porch so I could probably hang lines there even whne it's raining.
> 
> We looked into underground but we have such a high water table and flood zones we don't feel comfortable building like that here. Earth bearmed...maybe but I'm not sure where we'd get the dirt, we have a lot of sandy soil in FL.


I assumed based on your signature line that you lived in the city. 

Have you looked into geothermal for cooling? That may be your best option.

I've got friends outside of Baton Rouge that didn't have a/c for a while. They spent the days outside so they would just jump in a big tub of water every once in a while. 

Good luck.


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## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

The short answer is Yes, you can. Everyone before the 1900's lived off-grid. The question is can you do it with a modern lifestyle.

If you just want to reduce cost, off-grid is not the way to go. Even with the high prices of the grid, alternative energy just can't compete with the cheap(ish) cost of on-grid power. The easiest way to save money is to not use as much electricity like others have said.

All heating should be done with the cheapest fuel. Propane generally wins over electricity depending on local costs. Since you're in a temperate climate, and will have AC anyway, a heat pump, possibly geothermal, will be a cheaper, as far as electricity usage goes. If you want to go off-grid it will be hard to power, however. If you are going to have AC anyway, it makes sense to use the system as a heater as well. The slight increase in initial cost can be made up with power savings later.

Replace the electric dryer with a gas one. Stove/oven would use propane as well. I've seen a web sight that showed a wood powered dryer. You probably don't want to go that extreme, but its an idea. Another idea is a solar collector ducted into your current dryer. Solar heated air, and you only use the power for the fan and tumbler. Most of the energy usesage is in the heating elements for the dryer.

Since you're building new, you should look into some of the research on passively cooled homes in FL. I don't know if you can totally eliminate the AC with 100% humidity and low temperatures of over 75degF at night, but it would help. Massive insulation would be the minimum requirement for the house.

It all comes down to how much effort you're willing to put into the project. Some things are easy, like reducing power usage, but some are more difficult... have you seen the bicycle powered clothes washer?

Good luck

Michael


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

UUmom2many said:


> .... We get hurricanes here and power goes out sometimes for a week so security with that also. ....


Do you really think that a PV system would survive very well in a hurricane?


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## UUmom2many (Apr 21, 2009)

Like I said I'm just learning about it. Our property is pretty much in the middle of the state one littleish county away from GA. Now we're in Tampa on the bay and our power gets knocked out with storms but we don't have house damage or anything.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Some parts of the world just aren't physically conducive to efficient convenience.


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## lovinthislife (Aug 28, 2009)

when we were thinking of building a new house we were really interested in cordwood or stackwood style. the thicker your walls and floors are the better it will be. I remember a cousin of mine rented a house one year that was made out of block. It was like creek rocks and it was beautiful but the thing I remember most was how cool in the summer it was. She would open the windows, there was big shade trees close to the house and it was cool, they also had some kind of big fan up in the attic of the house. It was noisy but it helped to cool. They didn't have air conditioning but it was okay. Now, I know this wasn't in Florida but I think it would help with the thicker walls. Also, with the block walls in the winter it seemed to hold the heat better. Once they got it warmed up in there, it seemed to stay nice. Hope this helps. We also want to get our electric bill down. Our main thing is refrigeration. We can't have solar, they say we don't get enough sunshine in the winter. I know our ancestors lived fine without electricity. Heck, my grandparents didn't have electric, but I like my ice in my pop. lol Our electric goes out all the time, it was out twice this last week during the winter storms we've had.


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## survivalpro (Nov 14, 2009)

I have been off-grid for 15 years and from the description of your lifestyle I would not suggest going whole hog in to solar power as it would require a large expensive system.

In stead I would work at reducing your electricity costs first.

If your home is losing heat fix the heat leaks and add more insulation.

Propane heat with a wood stove for backup might help.

Propane is a multipurpose fuel and can run a fridge, stove, furnace, and water heater.

If over time you can get all your major appliances off electricity then a solar and wind system might work for you but I would go with a grid tie system and use the alternative energy to reduce your bills.


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## survivalpro (Nov 14, 2009)

I have been off-grid for 15 years and from the description of your lifestyle I would not suggest going whole hog in to solar power as it would require a large expensive system.

In stead I would work at reducing your electricity costs first.

If your home is losing heat fix the heat leaks and add more insulation.

Propane heat with a wood stove for backup might help.

Propane is a multipurpose fuel and can run a fridge, stove, furnace, and water heater.

If over time you can get all your major appliances off electricity then a solar and wind system might work for you but I would go with a grid tie system and use the alternative energy to reduce your bills.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

I lived in Daytona Beach a few years and never used AC. I had an old 60+ yr old home so it was designed without AC. I was near the beach so plenty of ocean breeze. Just open the windows for a nice cross breeze worked for me, it got warm a few days but they were managable. Once you went inland it got hot. 
Northern Florida's climate is alot different then where you are now. Make sure you build with cross ventilation in mind and you'd be surprised how little you REALLY need AC. Sure some freinds would come over and complain but their thermostats at home were set to 65 so as soon they came out it felt hot. It takes a little while to get used to no AC but its very do-able. 
Heck your property probably just got snowed on, so don't forget about heat....lol


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

On a budget and off grid don't go very well together. If you have grid power available, it's the way to go.

If you want to start building an off grid system, you can go slow and add panels, storage capacity, etc. as you go.

With off grid systems, you basically are spending your electric budget for the next 10 to 20 years, all at once.

Florida, I believe, has some fantastic rebate programs available (or did). Might want to check into it. Louisiana has like an 80% rebate, combined with the feds rebates.


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

1800 kwh per month means that off-grid is definately not for you. Where the energy comes from is not the issue, how wisely and conservatively you use that energy is the issue. Grid electricity is actually far cheaper than any other form. 

The first order of business would be to learn about electricity and determine what exactly is using your electricity, and how much of it : an electricity audit. If you're worried about being without power, than a fuel powered generator could be an option.


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## blufford (Nov 23, 2004)

UUmom2many said:


> The time it would take to wash at a mat 7 loads a WEEK would be ridiculous. Plus our land is out in the middle of no where so there's gas costs too. we'd have to take the Astro pulling a trailer for the laundry into town. Then what happens if we can't get there? I will and do use a line to dry when the weather permits but between the 100% humid days (which doesn't dry laundry) and the rainy season it's limited. I will have a large porch so I could probably hang lines there even whne it's raining.
> 
> We looked into underground but we have such a high water table and flood zones we don't feel comfortable building like that here. Earth bearmed...maybe but I'm not sure where we'd get the dirt, we have a lot of sandy soil in FL.



You do know that a laundrymat has more than one washing machine. I can do 7 loads in less than 2 hours. That would take me all day to do at home.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

I know that this gets mentioned a lot, but the first step in considering whether a renewable energy system is for you is to cut your overall energy usage first. A general rule of thumb is that spending a dollar on saving energy eliminates $3 to $5 that needs to be spent on the equipment to generate that amount of energy. Energy conservation is the first step ALWAYS!!


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## roachhill (Jul 8, 2009)

I worked the opposite way. I built my log cabin without any power and lived there for the last 8 months. Now I know which items I really need running and I'm planning a system to get those items online. It's easier to start with nothing and add to it then to try to scale back when your used to having electricity.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

roachhill said:


> I worked the opposite way. I built my log cabin without any power and lived there for the last 8 months. Now I know which items I really need running and I'm planning a system to get those items online. It's easier to start with nothing and add to it then to try to scale back when your used to having electricity.


Excellent point.

There is no school on earth that will teach you more about any subject than to submerse yourself in it and learn from the inside out.
When we made our big move, we just pulled the plug.....
I carried water, by bucket, from the frozen over pond and we heated that water on the wood stove. We ground flour with hand mills, used kerosene and candles for lights, used an old fridge out on the porch to keep things cold (it was December) and did just fine.
All the while I was rounding up batteries, traded an afternoon's work on a friend's wood stove (I like welding projects) in exchange for an old 12.5 horse Wisconsin engine, salvaged a 165 amp alternator out of a scrap ambulance, and bought a mid-range inverter. My electric set up likely cost me 2000 outright. We burn about 3 gallons of gasoline a week and have all the power we need for kitchen, computer, few lights on occasion, small shop tools, dvd player (John Wayne, Mel Gibson stuff) washing machine, etc.
I might add an average of one or two batteries per year.
I'm using regular automotive type batteries out of trucks and heavy equipment, and find that they last a long time in this application..... I have some ten years old and going strong.
I can't see how grid power could be much cheaper than what I've put together, unless one were in town getting by for 30-40 bucks a month or less.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

In the Winter we don't use our clothes dryer AT ALL. We wash an average of 7 loads per week. DH built a drying rack that is suspended from the ceiling not far from the outflow of the wood stove built in heatilator. We aren't using our propane water heater AT ALL. DH modified our wood stove to heat our water. In the summer, we will use passive solar to heat our water and still are discussing storage. Also, we line dry in the summer. Now, we are humid here, but not as humid as FL. I'd probably have a small wood stove that I'd have in a room I could seal off, then hang all my clothes in there (with a fan blowing the air around)- probably only do that in the coolest time of the day. The biggest consumer of electricity and also propane is usually a clothes dryer & water heater. Everyone has great info on alternatives for solar, wind, etc... We are still working on having less money than know-how/ability. There is no way DH & I could have afforded to pay someone else for all the work he has done himself this year. So, there is a consideration for expense in all you do. DH has a machinist/welding shop on our property and does use a fair amount of electricity. It will take us a few years to put the rest of the systems in place.


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## Homely (Aug 22, 2007)

Here's an article on a family of 15 with a $65 electric bill.
I have some links on passive cooling in humid/tropical climate that I've collected.
Vernacular Architecture in Louisiana

Using a Fly Roof

Cracker home design from Florida

Earth tunnel cooling
I'm not sure that's entirely passive though.


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## tamilee (Apr 13, 2005)

Homely said:


> Here's an article on a family of 15 with a $65 electric bill.
> I have some links on passive cooling in humid/tropical climate that I've collected.
> Vernacular Architecture in Louisiana
> 
> ...


Good info in these links. Thanks!


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## Homely (Aug 22, 2007)

tamilee said:


> Good info in these links. Thanks!


I'm glad you like it. It seems to take a bit of digging to get info on building suited hot, humid climates.


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## Quiver0f10 (Jun 17, 2003)

We are a family of 12 and would love to be off grid. We also live in the south where AC is a must. We have been working on cutting our usuage down now by shutting off lights, hanging out the clothes, setting the thermostat higher and so on. Work on conserving now while you do have electricity which will make the change easier down the road.


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## byexample (Aug 28, 2009)

It's been my personal experience that almost everyone on the grid could cut their electricity bill in half just by switching over to energy efficient lighting and adjusting their habits. Now that I've lived off the grid on a small system for 5 years I've come to notice how inefficient most average homes are in how their occupants use electricity.

Electricity was so cheap for so long that people just stopped worrying about silly things like turning the lights off when leaving a room. My grandparents weren't able to live that way. Electricity was more expensive in the context of their income... they had to live conservatively. I've been there myself. But I had to retrain myself to live this lifestyle.

I now know that if I lived then the way I live now I would have had a $6 / month electricity bill. And it really isn't THAT big of a sacrifice. It's all about turning things off when you aren't using them, choosing energy efficient appliances, unplugging cell phone chargers, etc.. We don't sit in the dark and go without... we just treat power as the precious and finite resource that it truly is. 

If you have any real interest in moving off the grid -- you are going to have to retrain your household to be more energy conscious. Conservation will have to become a cooperative family value.

And if you have an opportunity to build a new house I believe that it's way more important to go with a passive solar design than it is to go with expensive and esoteric building techniques. Our passive solar greenhouse is a 2x4 stick frame structure insulated with packed cellulose insulation and it performs amazingly well winter and summer here in the Painted Desert. Sure, some of those other techniques will yield truly superior results if built and designed properly. But I'd personally take a passive solar 2x4 structure over the nicest, most expensive triple layer, hyper-insulated concrete house built and sited without regard to the Sun. As in all things, go with the best building materials & techniques you can afford to use. 

Being in Florida... there's simply no reason for you to routinely pay for heat or hot water. The Sun is an abundant source of power that's available to you more than, what, 320 days a year? 

With passive solar design, solar hot water, and basic conservation you can thrive with surprisingly small amounts of energy.

Be well and best of luck!


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## QuiltingLady2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Gparents did it with a family of 14 in the 1900's. It was do-able. Would she/he do it again if they had a choice. I don't think so. But, what the heck. Try it. It would be a learning experiance. LOL


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

Your post was a very good one. For me, where the electricity comes from is not the point, how wisely you use that energy is the point. Waste is waste, whether its electricity, gasoline, natural gas or natural resources. The sooner we start to truly make conservation a priority in every aspect of our lives, the better off we'll be and the more 2nd nature it becomes. 



byexample said:


> ... I now know that if I lived then the way I live now I would have had a $6 / month electricity bill. And it really isn't THAT big of a sacrifice. It's all about turning things off when you aren't using them, choosing energy efficient appliances, unplugging cell phone chargers, etc.. We don't sit in the dark and go without... we just treat power as the precious and finite resource that it truly is...


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## TheSoundGi (Feb 10, 2010)

I'm still kind of new at this stuff trying to post something so I'm not sure if what I write gets to you, if you could let me know.

I designed and built 100% upgrade system at her previous home of where I am now I try some different things. Are you currently on grid due you have access to the grid? If you are currently on grid I may have some ideas that could be helpful. You said, &#8220;past month was 81 kwhpd&#8221; I cannot understand what that means. 

At at our home our power consumption is between 800 to 900 kilowatt hours. The typical homes with 4 to 7 people in it the power between 3000 to 4000 kilowatt hours. Depending on how I have our system set up we have been as low as 500 to 600 KW per month. Anyway if you could help me understand what you're power consumption and kilowatts will help me make some possible suggestions. By the way are current cost for our area with taxes and such is close to $.15 per kilowatt. 

Before I came up with our current system we are paying about $120 a month we are now paying about one $50-$60 per month. 

We do not have any solar or any kind of renewable energy sources in our current system is yet, once we do I expect a public service to sending us a check. Please let me know if this post gets to you, thanks Michael


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

TheSoundGi said:


> ... âpast month was 81 kwhpdâ ....


kwhpd - Kilo Watt Hours Per Day (her daily average for the month). Until she gets that number way down any kind of solar system would not be affordable.


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## TheSoundGi (Feb 10, 2010)

WOW, that is about 2400 per month, that is lot. Ya, with using that much electric heating and the condition of the current house. With her current usage it is not at all practical to install any kind of RE system. The monthly usage would have to get down below 1200 to 1300 before she could even set up time of use. If it was not for such a high usage, I mean any kind of electric heating makes it impractical to install a setup like I am doing in my house right now. Operating on batteries during the day, and charging the batteries at night when the cost per kilowatt is very low. As far as electricity goes. I think it would be best to wait until they are in a house that is better suited for gas heat or solar hot water heat and for right now just focus on doing whatever she can to stay away from any form of electrical heating, because that is a massive killer of any kind of reduction of AC power. A note to Crystal, if you would like any detailed information about how I have our own setup with kind of use, just let me know and I would be glad to try and help. Talk to you soon, Michael


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## Homely (Aug 22, 2007)

Here are  a few ideas to keep the temperature lower inside, thus cutting the need for AC. 

A haybox cooker--
sort of a low-tech crock pot, an insulated container keeps the food hot enough to continue cooking without using more heat/fuel.

Make a solar oven--
Make it a homeschool project if you like.
Link with several solar cookers and more detail on the haybox here.

Paint the roof--
There is special paint that has insulating properties, or if your roof is any color besides white, painting it white will reflect more heat.

Keep the sun out--
My bedroom gets super hot because the sun shines in the window unimpeded. I've taken to keeping the curtain closed on that side during the hottest time of day and reopening it for airflow when it cools down. Also fans to pull in the cooler air on the shady side of the house and out on the hot side could help.

As for hot water, consider unplugging it altogether. Heat water for baths and dishes and tea on the stove. You can put a little hot in a 5 gal bucket, fill the rest with cold and have bathers dip out as much as they need to get clean (rinse, soap up, rinse again.) That saves on water, too.

I would like to try a lights-out time and in my home, with all unnecessary appliances (tv, computers, etc) off by that time. I bet oil lamps or candlelight before bed would help our bodies fall asleep sooner, in addition to a lower power bill. maybe that idea could work for you.

Hope something here helps.


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