# Alabama man dies after turned away from 43 hospitals packed with COVID patients, family says



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Alabama man dies after turned away from 43 hospitals packed with COVID patients, family says


His family searched three states to find care for him but they couldn't make it in time.




abc7chicago.com





"Ray DeMonia's family said it took calls to 43 hospitals across three states to get the 73-year-old a cardiac ICU bed. He later died in a facility in Mississippi, 200 miles from his Alabama home. His relatives wrote in his obituary "please get vaccinated...to free up resources for non-COVID related emergencies." 

This report is according to his family. I don't yet see independent verification.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

It doesn’t matter. 
Someone will pop up to say it never happened.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I read that yesterday. That should not be happening. In hospital after hospital the employees are being worked to death, in some cases literally, by administrations that cannot properly staff their hospitals. Covid or no covid, hospitals all across the country are turning patients away because they are understaffed.

It will get worse before things get better.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Healthcare had staffing challenges BC. It is keenly acute now. It might be made worse when staff quits instead of getting the mandate.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

HDRider said:


> Healthcare had staffing challenges BC. It is keenly acute now. It might be made worse when staff quits instead of getting the mandate.


Quits or gets fired


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I know several people right now that are just now going for anything from minor to major surgeries that were put off because of the expected shutdown of the entire healthcare system because of covid. I also remember back when we had a president that wasn't suffering from dimentia setting up naval hospitals and things like that to deal with a surge in cases.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Alabama man dies after turned away from 43 hospitals packed with COVID patients, family says
> 
> 
> His family searched three states to find care for him but they couldn't make it in time.
> ...


So according to his family he was admitted to a hospital, just not one close to home. And he died anyway. So because it sounds more sensational they have found something to blame it on. A 73 year old man died in a hospital, from a heart condition, so lets blame it on Covid.


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## stars at night (Mar 12, 2021)

muleskinner2 said:


> So according to his family he was admitted to a hospital, just not one close to home. And he died anyway. So because it sounds more sensational they have found something to blame it on. An 73 year old man died in a hospital, from a heart condition, so lets blame it on Covid.


Had he been admitted to a hospital locally he had a better chance of living. I worked in an emergency room and as a medic on a rescue squad and I know this to be true. So covid did have a part in killing this man


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

HDRider said:


> Healthcare had staffing challenges BC. It is keenly acute now. It might be made worse when staff quits instead of getting the mandate.


Uh oh , is BC being redefined ?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> Uh oh , is BC being redefined ?


Lol


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

stars at night said:


> Had he been admitted to a hospital locally he had a better chance of living. I worked in an emergency room and as a medic on a rescue squad and I know this to be true. So covid did have a part in killing this man


What would a local hospital have done differently than the hospital 200 miles away? There are three hospitals within one hundred miles of me. But they all transfer their heart patients to the heart hospital. Which is way over 200 miles from me. Should I insist on staying locally or go to the hospital that is farther away? And working as a medic hardly makes you qualified to make decisions for heart patients.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

muleskinner2 said:


> What would a local hospital have done differently than the hospital 200 miles away? There are three hospitals within one hundred miles of me. But they all transfer their heart patients to the heart hospital. Which is way over 200 miles from me. Should I insist on staying locally or go to the hospital that is farther away? And working as a medic hardly makes you qualified to make decisions for heart patients.


My little hospital does the same but they tend to stabilize them before they are sent to other hospitals.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Lisa in WA said:


> It doesn’t matter.
> Someone will pop up to say it never happened.




According to the official govt reporting, AL has only 1/3rd of its staffed ICU beds occupied.

Doesn't the claim that they called 45 hospitals ring an alarm in your brain? At only 5 min per call, that's almost 4 hrs on the phone for a guy having an acute heart attack. It's either a lie or they're really stupid. Who calls about an ICU bed anyway? Just go to the hospital. If they;re on standby, they'll make arrangements for a bed at another hospital. They have lawyers to worry about, you know.

As far as cardiac care in a small hospital goes-- larger hospitals will have capabilities for invasive cardiac procedures-- emergency CABG or cath + stenting-- not available at the small places. It sounds like the problem was that they chose to live in the sticks and have a reason to regret that choice now....How does CoViD enter into this?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

The article says that they were looking for a cardiac ICU bed. That means he would have had a pre authorization from an insurance company called in by a ER, PCP, or a surgeon, you don't just walk in and ask for a cardiac ICU bed. So some doctor saw him, called his insurance company for a pre authorization, and the closest hospital that had room took him in. This happens hundreds of times a day, and has for years. Absent information the contrary, we must assume that the hospital that took him met the standard of care, and he died anyway.

Most heart conditions are preventable. So people are complaining that someone died from a mostly preventable disease, because other people were in other hospital beds for a disease that some people believe is preventable via a vaccination. Did I miss anything?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I'm with the doc. I have never heard of anyone calling for an ICU bed. If someone I know it's having a heart attack I hope they call an ambulance.


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## stars at night (Mar 12, 2021)

muleskinner2 said:


> What would a local hospital have done differently than the hospital 200 miles away? There are three hospitals within one hundred miles of me. But they all transfer their heart patients to the heart hospital. Which is way over 200 miles from me. Should I insist on staying locally or go to the hospital that is farther away? And working as a medic hardly makes you qualified to make decisions for heart patients.


It's not the difference in distance but the difference in time. The quicker a person in trouble enters the ER the better chance he has of living. Instead this guy was driven around and around wasting that precious time. In the back of ambulances there are no shock paddles or other living saving materials. So it is TIME that matters first, that golden hour and his was spent dying through no fault of his own.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I don't[ know of any ambulance that doesn't carry an AED.


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## stars at night (Mar 12, 2021)

stars at night said:


> It's not the difference in distance but the difference in time. The quicker a person in trouble enters the ER the better chance he has of living. Instead this guy was driven around and around wasting that precious time. In the back of ambulances there are no shock paddles or other living saving materials. So it is TIME that matters first, that golden hour and his was spent dying through no fault of his own.


But working as a medic does give me the ability to decide to call out the helicopter. And if I decide, as a medic to do that you can bet your ass I will. I am a top notch medic who takes the job seriously to the bone. And I assure you that if you ever need help and I was around you'd ask for me.


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## stars at night (Mar 12, 2021)

no really said:


> I don't[ know of any ambulance that doesn't carry an AED.


these days they do


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

stars at night said:


> It's not the difference in distance but the difference in time. The quicker a person in trouble enters the ER the better chance he has of living. Instead this guy was driven around and around wasting that precious time. In the back of ambulances there are no shock paddles or other living saving materials. So it is TIME that matters first, that golden hour and his was spent dying through no fault of his own.


He wasn't looking for an ER, he was looking for a cardiac ICU. That means he had been seen by a ER Doctor, his PCP, or a surgeon. And they called his insurance company for a pre authorization, stabilized him and them sent him to a cardiac ICU.

As for ambulances not having shock paddles, that is just BS. Every ambulance, and every police car I have ever been around since the 90's has them. I had the emergency type in my patrol truck. You open the box and read the instructions, zaps the hell out of them.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

muleskinner2 said:


> He wasn't looking for an ER, he was looking for a cardiac ICU. That means he had been seen by a ER Doctor, his PCP, or a surgeon. And they gave him a referral, stabilized him and them sent him to a cardiac ICU.
> 
> As for ambulances not having shock paddles, that is just BS. Every ambulance, and every police car I have ever been around since the 90's has them. I had the emergency type in my patrol truck. You open the box and read the instructions, zaps the hell out of them.


Airlines have them, lots of major retail have them but they have to be trained in the proper use.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

stars at night said:


> But working as a medic does give me the ability to decide to call out the helicopter. And if I decide, as a medic to do that you can bet your ass I will. I am a top notch medic who takes the job seriously to the bone. And I assure you that if you ever need help and I was around you'd ask for me.


When I was a Deputy I called out a helicopter at least two or three times a week. More often than not the patient declined the chopper, because his insurance wouldn't cover it. I have declined the chopper ride myself, it just costs too much. But that doesn't have anything to do with this situation. An old man with a heart condition was referred to a cardiac ICU, and the first hospital that had room took him.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

no really said:


> but they have to be trained in the proper use.


Not anymore, most times outside a hospital or ER they are emergence units. You open the cover and read the instructions. Anyone who can read can use one. You stick the leads where the instructions tell you to, and the machine does the rest.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

stars at night said:


> these days they do


Yeah these days for the past 20 years.


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## cannonfoddertfc (Dec 20, 2020)

He didn't die because of a delay finding a bed, he died 8 days later... people just want drama and sensationalism and stories like this give it to them even if its not accurate.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

muleskinner2 said:


> Not anymore, most times outside a hospital or ER they are emergence units. You open the cover and read the instructions. Anyone who can read can use one. You stick the leads where the instructions tell you to, and the machine does the rest.


Interesting might just be a company thing but he said they sent their people to get instruction when they first got the AED's.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

no really said:


> Interesting might just be a company thing but he said they sent their people to get instruction when they first got the AED's.


Yeah, I went to that instruction as well. They told us to read the instructions, put the leads where it said to, the instrument reads their heart for a few seconds and if required it gives them a shock.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

muleskinner2 said:


> Yeah, I went to that instruction as well. They told us to read the instructions, put the leads where it said to, the instrument reads their heart for a few seconds and if required it gives them a shock.


Yep, pretty self explanatory.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Smoke over Fire, Clouds over Grass. But that is an ECG and not an AED. I used to be a medic too. Some boxes are volunteer and dont have these capacities. These are BLS units and are common even in large cities. Most of the ones in the cities are for elderly transports. 

I was installing a new roof on my fathers house in Galveston County when there was a motorcycle wreck right in front of the house. Dude was doing over 100 and hit the back of a car doing about 45. He flew as high as the roof I was on and it was a beach house on pilings. He was barely alive when I got there and all I had was a pulse ox and some bandages. He had a collapse lung and a sucking chest wound. The sucking chest wound was his only saving grace because it was the only O2 he was getting Once I had rigged that up so he could breath. 

When the box got there I was relieved until I found out it was a BLS unit and they were both Basics. I couldn't legally let them take my patient as my cert was higher than theirs. They would not let me go with them either. My brother, the RN, was there also so I asked him to get in the cab and call for life flight. He did and they came and the guy lived. He came by my fathers house 9 months later and asked him to thank me for him. 

Bottom line is this. Not all ambulances are created equal. Sometimes you are better off left in the street until proper help comes. Some of the territorial ones wont budge either no matter who's life is at stake. Luckily this is rare. These knuckle heads was trying to split his leg that was only hanging on by one tendon. What good is 2 legs if you cant breathe?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

cannonfoddertfc said:


> He didn't die because of a delay finding a bed, he died 8 days later... people just want drama and sensationalism and stories like this give it to them even if its not accurate.


Eight days, so this story was fabricated to get people stirred up. You don't just call a hospital and order a cardiac ICU bed and a bucket of chicken. That ain't how it works.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> Eight days, so this story was fabricated to get people stirred up. You don't just call a hospital and order a cardiac ICU bed and a bucket of chicken. That ain't how it works.


"I'll take a cardiac bed....umm....an MRI on the side and....ummmm....a private room. Yes, I'll pay extra for the private room. Noooo, That should do it. Thanks"


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Covid-19 causes stupidity even in those who don't have it.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

MoonRiver said:


> Covid-19 causes stupidity even in those who don't have it.


GREAT line...Can I use it?


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

muleskinner2 said:


> A 73 year old man died in a hospital, from a heart condition, so lets blame it on Covid.


Lots wrong with this news article.


doc- said:


> Doesn't the claim that they called 45 hospitals ring an alarm in your brain? At only 5 min per call, that's almost 4 hrs on the phone for a guy having an acute heart attack. It's either a lie or they're really stupid.


Partner today caught an epidural abscess on a previously healthy 50ish year old. For the uninitiated this is a five alarm fire and this patient needs EMERGENT surgery to prevent/limit permanent severe neurological deficits (paralysis). We have a spine surgeon, but no beds. Two tertiary centers 45 minutes away....no beds. Secondary center an hour away...no beds. THREE tertiary centers 1.5 hours away...no beds. Two tertiary centers 2.5 hours away....no beds. As I left they were still making calls, to a tertiary center 400+ miles away. This is a relatively young woman with progressively worsening neurological symptoms who needs emergent surgery.



doc- said:


> Who calls about an ICU bed anyway? Just go to the hospital. If they;re on standby, they'll make arrangements for a bed at another hospital


Not sure what you mean here. I call to transfer a patient I make a recommendation to receiving doc whether they need an ICU bed, but it's up to admitting doc to make that determination.

The problem with diversion (standby?) today is everyone ELSE is also on diversion.




muleskinner2 said:


> That means he would have had a pre authorization from an insurance company called in by a ER, PCP, or a surgeon, you don't just walk in and ask for a cardiac ICU bed


No. Emergency physicians dont ask for pre authorization. I dont care about your insurance or ability to pay. If I did I could easily wade into trouble with EMTALA.


muleskinner2 said:


> That means he had been seen by a ER Doctor, his PCP, or a surgeon. And they called his insurance company for a pre authorization, stabilized him and them sent him to a cardiac ICU.


We would stabilize him, but no ED in America ever calls for a preauth.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

NY hospital puts baby deliveries on hold as maternity workers quit over COVID-19 vaccine mandate

Across the nation, one has to wonder why so many health care workers are quitting rather than take the vaccine. Just wondering.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> NY hospital puts baby deliveries on hold as maternity workers quit over COVID-19 vaccine mandate
> 
> Across the nation, one has to wonder why so many health care workers are quitting rather than take the vaccine. Just wondering.


 That article is categorically false. I have never seen a baby that allows it's mother to put a delivery on hold.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> NY hospital puts baby deliveries on hold as maternity workers quit over COVID-19 vaccine mandate
> 
> Across the nation, one has to wonder why so many health care workers are quitting rather than take the vaccine. Just wondering.


Yes, especially because they have gotten other vaccines to have been doing the job at all. As keeps being brought up, vaccinations have always been a required thing. Why won't they take this one? Does make a person wonder.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

stars at night said:


> ...So it is TIME that matters first, that golden hour and his was spent dying through no fault of his own.


I suppose it's possible that he had a congenital heart issue, but it sounds like he had cardiovascular disease. That IS his fault. Just another story that reinforces the need for people to take better care of themselves.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

The keywords in this article are cardiac ICU beds. 
Culman is a short distance from Birmingham and there are a lot of hospitals there with a lot of cardiac care. 
At this time ZipRecruiter has 95 Job openings for Cardiac Nurses in Birmingham and 10 cardiac doctors. 
Nationwide they have 138,000 openings for Cardiac Nurses. This search defaults to a salary range of $67K to $135K so there could be more. I see some openings paying more than $3000 per week for a traveling nurse.
I think the problem is staffing and it's not going to get better as staff quits or gets fired because of the vaccine requirement.
Most of the articles I read about this use his obituary as the source. It's not mentioned in the Birmingham News and the only thing in his hometown paper is the obituary.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

muleskinner2 said:


> Not anymore, most times outside a hospital or ER they are emergence units. You open the cover and read the instructions. Anyone who can read can use one. You stick the leads where the instructions tell you to, and the machine does the rest.


We have them on every floor in the office I work at in Houston.

Yup...open it up, read the instructions and go for it.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> Across the nation, one has to wonder why so many health care workers are quitting rather than take the vaccine. Just wondering.





wdcutrsdaughter said:


> Yes, especially because they have gotten other vaccines to have been doing the job at all. As keeps being brought up, vaccinations have always been a required thing. Why won't they take this one? Does make a person wonder.


Wonder about what? It's simple. #1. It's not an "anti-vax" issue. It's a hesitancy towards this one. It's new with no long-term studies to back it up. #2. It's been politicized. Many pushing for it, were telling people not to trust it before it was developed. What changed? The president. Now that Biden is in office, the Trump vaccine is good to go.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Part - only part - of the issue today is not just the lack of health workers, but the rules they work under. If this is indeed, a pandemic, why not set up new temporary ER and hospital rules to assist in helping those in need? Think outside the box.

My DD was a traveling cardiac critical nurse. Made oodles of money working at various hospitals around the country. She does that no more. Went back to school and got her Masters in Epidemiology. No longer practices at all. The stories she tells is shameful.


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## colourfastt (Nov 11, 2006)

Lisa in WA said:


> It doesn’t matter.
> Someone will pop up to say it never happened.


Sad but true.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

kinderfeld said:


> Wonder about what? It's simple. #1. It's not an "anti-vax" issue. It's a hesitancy towards this one. It's new with no long-term studies to back it up. #2. It's been politicized. Many pushing for it, were telling people not to trust it before it was developed. What changed? The president. Now that Biden is in office, the Trump vaccine is good to go.


yes. I agree.
I meant one has to wonder why people in the medical field are hesitant about taking a medical intervention when they have already taken many in the past. But that is not to be discussed, in some places. It is that they are just being difficult and unable to "get with the program." "program"

ha!


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> yes. I agree.
> I meant one has to wonder why people in the medical field are hesitant about taking a medical intervention when they have already taken many in the past.


This one is new, though. They worry that it was rushed and that it's a bit experimental still. I've heard many say that they are waiting to see how it effects others.




wdcutrsdaughter said:


> But that is not to be discussed, in some places. It is that they are just being difficult and unable to "get with the program." "program"
> 
> ha!


Probably has more to do with the people running the "program".


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

colourfastt said:


> Lisa in WA said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn’t matter.
> ...


Funny. No one has yet. They’ve pointed out the outlandishness of the spin put into the headline, but no one has denied that the story happened.

…but, I guess once you’ve said it, you got the effect you were after, huh?


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

kinderfeld said:


> This one is new, though. They worry that it was rushed and that it's a bit experimental still. I've heard many say that they are waiting to see how it effects others.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably has more to do with the people running the "program".


Yes. It is indeed experimental and it bypassed the years of trials normally required. Those missed trials are now being done in real time. Some of what was said at the outset are proving not to be true in real life. The early illusion of immunity is now busted because lots of vaccinated get the virus. They didn't know how long the immunity would last but 'hoped' it would be a long time. Normal trials would have found that answer but we now know vaccine immunity wanes in just a few months. The early promise if protection from severe illness and death still appear to be partly true and more time will tell us more on that. Long term problems from the vax are still unknown at this point but we know some people have severe side effects or even die. The general response to that from pro vaxxers is usually 'it is safe for the vast majority' and that may be true but they brush off those who die or get severe reaction as 'only a few'. I guess that is okay as long as one of those 'few' isn't you or a family member.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Danaus29 said:


> I read that yesterday. That should not be happening. In hospital after hospital the employees are being worked to death, in some cases literally, by administrations that cannot properly staff their hospitals. Covid or no covid, hospitals all across the country are turning patients away because they are understaffed.
> 
> It will get worse before things get better.


No problem here. The hospital and also VA hospital will take a person in any hour of the day. I have been to the VA 4 times in the past 12 mos. with the delay in care. Maybe more people should come to S.E. Mo.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

GTX63 said:


> NY hospital puts baby deliveries on hold as maternity workers quit over COVID-19 vaccine mandate
> 
> Across the nation, one has to wonder why so many health care workers are quitting rather than take the vaccine. Just wondering.


It is astounding how many healthcare workers push things like essential oils and other quackery.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I'm trying to see the relevance, I am.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Personally, I push for people taking better care of themselves. About 2/3 of the money spent on healthcare is for preventable chronic diseases. Perhaps those demanding people get vaccinated can start demanding people lead a healthier lifestyle. That would free up a hell of a lot more staff and ICU beds.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

boatswain2PA said:


> It is astounding how many healthcare workers push things like essential oils and other quackery.


Were you also astounded by Fauci pushing things like 2 or even 3 masks which was certainly quackery?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

boatswain2PA said:


> It is astounding how many healthcare workers push things like essential oils and other quackery.


It's sad when the best you can do is resort to insults. There are people truly uncomfortable with the vaccinations for various reasons and insulting their intelligence isn't constructive or helpful.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

poppy said:


> Were you also astounded by Fauci pushing things like 2 or even 3 masks which was certainly quackery?


Yes. Fauci should resign in disgrace.



wr said:


> It's sad when the best you can do is resort to insults. There are people truly uncomfortable with the vaccinations for various reasons and insulting their intelligence isn't constructive or helpful.


If you think that is an insult then you should see a dermatologist for your incredibly thin skin.

I understand there are people uncomfortable with the vaccine. I am uncomfortable with it. I dont demean reasonable people who choose not to get it. I encourage people to block out the talking heads from the far left (like the media) and the far right (like you can read here) and talk to their physician about their concerns.

The vaccine is the best tool we have to reduce likelihood of serious disease. 

The vaccine has some incredibly rare serious side effects, and more common relatively mild side effects.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

boatswain2PA said:


> Yes. Fauci should resign in disgrace.
> 
> 
> If you think that is an insult then you should see a dermatologist for your incredibly thin skin.
> ...


More insults. My skin is not thin at all, I just don't think that dismissive comments and insults further the cause or foster dialogue. 

I've have vaccinated and unvaccinated friends and each one of them has a very personal reason for following the path they chose and neither deserves the contempt of others.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

boatswain2PA said:


> It is astounding how many healthcare workers push things like essential oils and other quackery.


That is a perfect illustration of the arrogance that breeds so much disdain for the medical trade of late. There is a lot that can be said for natural remedy, and the old-school wisdom has brought comfort to the ill for thousands of years.

Devotees of the Church of Science!(tm) like to say that science is an ongoing, objective pursuit of knowledge, but, all too often, carry themselves like they believe that body of knowledge is a steady-state at its pinnacle.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> That is a perfect illustration of the arrogance


Would it be arrogant for a professional gunsmith to tell customers not to use essence of rose hips to better lubricate their slide? Or lavender oil on their front site to improve their aim?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

boatswain2PA said:


> Would it be arrogant for a professional gunsmith to tell customers not to use essence of rose hips to better lubricate their slide? Or lavender oil on their front site to improve their aim?


You mean that doesn't work???


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

boatswain2PA said:


> Would it be arrogant for a professional gunsmith to tell customers not to use essence of rose hips to better lubricate their slide? Or lavender oil on their front site to improve their aim?


Only if they haven't tried it.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

mreynolds said:


> You mean that doesn't work???


Are you being arrogant?

After all, if your sisters hairdressers brother dipped his finger in lavender oil before going to the range last time and said he hit bullseye every shot, then its gotta work. Its SCIENCE!


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

barnbilder said:


> Only if they haven't tried it.


Can we apply that ideology to vaccines?

Or how about jumping out of a plane without a parachute.

Or...we could rely on experts. I would rely on gunmonkey to improve my aim, not some quack selling homeopathy.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

mreynolds said:


> You mean that doesn't work???


We could set up a clinical trial to find out if it does work and assess how much prettier they smell.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

If someone I respected told me that a dab of rosemary essential oil on my front sight would help me shoot better, and I did it, and believed that it would, there is a very good chance that it would. If you believe in something, very strongly, it might just come to pass. There are many instances of professional athletes having silly pregame rituals, there is also a thing known as the placebo effect. 
I will tell you some things I don't believe in, the FDA, the CDC, and Pfizer. It is my belief that those things are synonyms, and that they will do anything in their power to sell product, right up until their lawyers tell them to stop.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> There is a lot that can be said for natural remedy, and the old-school wisdom has brought comfort to the ill for thousands of years.


I was pretty darned sick when I had covid and although I didn't treat it with essential oils, I'm sure some would call our plant based medicines quackery but trials have been ongoing for hundreds of years, there are few reported side effects and nobody is lobbying for FDA approval.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

boatswain2PA said:


> Are you being arrogant?


Was that really your take on my comment?


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

mreynolds said:


> Was that really your take on my comment?


No. Just as I was not being arrogant in pointing out the quackery of essential oils, naturopathy, witchcraft, etc.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

boatswain2PA said:


> Would it be arrogant for a professional gunsmith to tell customers not to use essence of rose hips to better lubricate their slide? Or lavender oil on their front site to improve their aim?


Let’s make this an apt analogy.

As a professional gunsmith, it is my prerogative and my job to make my recommendation when asked. If a customer asked me about the lubrication value of essence of rose hips, I would tell them the truth; specifically that I don’t know how well essence of rose hips would work, but that I like grease on slide rails.

You, however, specifically called essential oils “quackery”. An true analogy would be if a client told me that their uncle, his family’s gunsmith, had recommended WD40, and I told him that his uncle was an old coot who didn’t know anything about guns. _That _would be arrogance similar to what you displayed.

I don’t care for WD40 on my guns, and I’ve never used it on a client’s gun, but I also recognize that WD40 has been used for decades, and that there are use-cases and maintenance regimens where WD40 would certainly do more good than harm.

There’s a big difference between stating your fact-based, professional opinion and being a pompous ass that validates the negative opinion earned by your colleagues.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

wr said:


> I was pretty darned sick when I had covid and although I didn't treat it with essential oils, I'm sure some would call our plant based medicines quackery but trials have been ongoing for hundreds of years, there are few reported side effects and nobody is lobbying for FDA approval.


It’s often overlooked that “the old ways” were often arrived at by something very much like the scientific method; if not scientific method mixed with Darwinism.

If something is tried, and thought to work, it is tried again… and again and again, in many cases for hundreds of years. With so many repetitive trials, something that doesn’t work, or makes the situation worse, eventually falls out of the tribal knowledge. It obviously isn’t a perfect system, but I sincerely think it’s a mistake to dismiss the findings of our ancestors out-of-hand. 

Most of the oft cited examples of pseudo-medical quackery, blood-letting and lobotomy, for example, weren’t old-way knowledge with hundreds of years of trial and error behind them. They were rushed methods, developed and auto-corroborated by self-appointed experts in positions of authority who told their patients it worked, despite some very concerning contemporaneous evidence.

Smell familiar?


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

I think you would bedoing a disservice to your customers if you didnt tell them that the Rose Hips wouldn't work, and could possibly do harm.

But feel free to think I'm a pompous ass, and feel free to spend your money on overpriced lavender oil.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

boatswain2PA said:


> I think you would bedoing a disservice to your customers if you didnt tell them that the Rose Hips wouldn't work, and could possibly do harm.
> 
> But feel free to think I'm a pompous ass, and feel free to spend your money on overpriced lavender oil.


I think you’re voluntarily missing the point, and not at all responding to what I actually said. You’re much smarter than that, but, hey, if stabbing a strawman makes you feel better, don’t let me get in your way.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

So you found my use of the term "quackery" to be too pejorative? It's faster to type out "quackery" than the phrase "wildly successful mid-level marketing tool that employs sales people who are utterly untrained in basic sciences to sell topical potions to their friends while promising these pleasant smells will cure everything from metastatic cancer to infertility but since they are completely unregulated nobody is required to actually study the efficacy of their claims, and since they are all sold by friends and family nobody is ALLOWED to call it the (pleasantly scented) bull excrement that it is".

That's just a bit too much to type. so I used the term "quackery".


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

boatswain2PA said:


> So you found my use of the term "quackery" to be too pejorative? It's faster to type out "quackery" than the phrase "wildly successful mid-level marketing tool that employs sales people who are utterly untrained in basic sciences to sell topical potions to their friends while promising these pleasant smells will cure everything from metastatic cancer to infertility but since they are completely unregulated nobody is required to actually study the efficacy of their claims, and since they are all sold by friends and family nobody is ALLOWED to call it the (pleasantly scented) bull excrement that it is".
> 
> That's just a bit too much to type. so I used the term "quackery".


I think that describes pharmaceutical reps as well.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

wr said:


> I think that describes pharmaceutical reps as well.


While I appreciate your dislike of them, I have found most reps to be pretty smart, and are well educated in chemistry, statistics, pharmacology, and pathophysiology. They can tell you what receptors their drugs target, numbers needed to treat, etc.

Those making, selling, prescribing, or dispensing Losartan understand the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone cycle, how it affects hypertension, and where losartan affects this cycle.

Essential oil salespeople rarely know what the numbers of a blood pressure actually mean.

I am not demeaning them as people, I have many great friends who I love who sell (and who buy) these oils, but they dont know a damn thing about what is in them or how they could possibly work.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

boatswain2PA said:


> While I appreciate your dislike of them, I have found most reps to be pretty smart, and are well educated in chemistry, statistics, pharmacology, and pathophysiology. They can tell you what receptors their drugs target, numbers needed to treat, etc.
> 
> Those making, selling, prescribing, or dispensing Losartan understand the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone cycle, how it affects hypertension, and where losartan affects this cycle.
> 
> ...


I dislike the BS, hype and hate that seems be the new face of covid. 

I know a couple pharma reps and interestingly enough they have Bachelor of Arts degrees and I'm pretty confident that most of the world could live well without their little bag of tricks of they ate properly, spent more time outside and invested in a pair of good walking shoes and ditched their televisions.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

boatswain2PA said:


> So you found my use of the term "quackery" to be too pejorative? It's faster to type out "quackery" than the phrase "wildly successful mid-level marketing tool that employs sales people who are utterly untrained in basic sciences to sell topical potions to their friends while promising these pleasant smells will cure everything from metastatic cancer to infertility but since they are completely unregulated nobody is required to actually study the efficacy of their claims, and since they are all sold by friends and family nobody is ALLOWED to call it the (pleasantly scented) bull excrement that it is".
> 
> That's just a bit too much to type. so I used the term "quackery".


I’ll tell you what, bro. Post a single (and I mean even just ONE) Church of Science!(tm) position preached to us by Saint Fauci of Deesisi that has been consistent for more than 90 days, couldn’t be negated by an earlier lie, and that actually follows the science (as opposed to _The Science!_(tm)), and I’ll consider the stuff you’ve been shamelessly evangelizing to the deplorable rural masses here as something other than “wildly successful mid level marketing”. 






Oh, and, just in case we stray too far from actual truth:
Jeffrey Epstein didn’t kill himself.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

boatswain2PA said:


> No. Just as I was not being arrogant in pointing out the quackery of essential oils, naturopathy, witchcraft, etc.


Ok then. Maybe try and not take everything so seriously. Especially not from me.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

I'm sure I could wade through some of the crap Fauci has spread to find some consistent truth, but not much.

You CAN be pro science, scientifically trained, and see that Fauci is a political hack, the vaccine isnt great but it's better than nothing for most people, AND there is a tremendous amount of quackery like essential oils.

Azith needs to be studied better. Ivermectin needs to be studied better. Everything needs to be studied better.

And Epstein's death should be studied better!


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Quick question....

If they are *essential* oils and you dont take them will you die?


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Don't forget. The deplorable rural masses have a long history of being sold snake oil by college edumacated experts. If you have farmed very long, you have seen a lot of 180s and a few 360s in terms of expert advice.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

mreynolds said:


> Quick question....
> 
> If they are *essential* oils and you dont take them will you die?


Yes. Just like you will (eventually) die if you get the vaccine.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

barnbilder said:


> Don't forget. The deplorable rural masses have a long history of being sold snake oil by college edumacated experts. If you have farmed very long, you have seen a lot of 180s and a few 360s in terms of expert advice.


My county's vaccination rate is somewhere around 18%. There seems to be a certain level of distrust of TPTB. Remarkably, there doesn't seem to be the need for mass cremation or an overflow at the aid station they label a hospital. 

Though I did put on my full face respirator with P100 cartridges for the first time of this pandemic. Our Airbnb was inhabited for 5 days with 8-10 people of varying sizes that attended the sold out music festival. Normally, I would just wait a day before I inspected the damage, but there is a race coming up and we have to turn the place over. I felt the need to open up the windows for a few hours before the farm boss got busy.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

boatswain2PA said:


> I understand there are people uncomfortable with the vaccine. I am uncomfortable with it. I dont demean reasonable people who choose not to get it. I encourage people to block out the talking heads from the far left (like the media) and the far right (like you can read here) and talk to their physician about their concerns.


You mean the parrots who's line is "get the shot, get the shot, brwak, get the shot"?

As for the inefficiency of nature based medicine, consider the source of aspirin and quinine, even penicillin. And yes, plant based medicine has been used to fight cancer. Taxol is derived from the bark of yew trees.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

You forgot foxglove.

And of course we understand exactly how aspirin interacts with the Cox receptors involved in inflammation, how quinine disrupts protein synthesis in mosquitos, and how penicillins weak bacterial cell walls.

How does Green Tea essential oil reduce your blood pressure AND cure your libido? by simple quackery.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

boatswain2PA said:


> You forgot foxglove.
> 
> And of course we understand exactly how aspirin interacts with the Cox receptors involved in inflammation, how quinine disrupts protein synthesis in mosquitos, and how penicillins weak bacterial cell walls.
> 
> How does Green Tea essential oil reduce your blood pressure AND cure your libido? by simple quackery.



I did not mention every single nature derrived medication. Opiates are another medicine.

I did not say it all works. A lot of it is quackery and snake oil. Just like otc medications, you have to do your research and be wary of too-good-to-be-true claims.

Topical benadryl does not relieve my itching from chigger bites but the jewelweed, witch hazel and aloe combination is awesome!


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I used to date an RN. We had a " discussion" over 35 years ago about natural medicines. I asked her did penicillin come from Mars. Did Aspirin come from Mercury? Did Motrin come from Pluto? 

No, it came from ingredients right here on Earth. 

Had an ole timer tell me once that spider webs will immediately stop an arterial bleed. I laughed and patted him on his head and said "OK". Then back in '91 I had a guy lay open his wrist with an errant nail gun shot. Arterial bleed too. We were 1 hour from an ER. I remembered what he said and said " What the heck? it cant hurt." The spider web stopped it *instantly*. There is a coagulant in that stuff. Why would a spider want you to bleed out? There is no good stuff left if you bleed out. Like a steak that is smoked and not grilled like it should be. 

Even a spider needs something to look forward to.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

My health doesn't depend on rubbing goat manure on my prostate or eating a potion of crushed egg shells and lilac every morning, however I haven't seen any warning labels on natural meds that have side effects such as swallowing your tongue, depression, bulging eyeballs, suicide, explosive diarrhea or public masturbation as a side effect.
Odd how we are warned that natural meds aren't FDA approved, yet experimental vaccines are....


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I am always amazed at our propensity, and ability to argue about anything and everything


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

Hey! Folks. There is ONLY 1 solution: *The Federal government must take over ALL medical facilities and services throughout the US.*

You know: Kind of like it did airport security after 9/11.

It will be similar to the efficient, responsive, courteous, inexpensive US Postal System.

You know, much like the medical systems in other communist countries.

[/sarcasm]


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> I am always amazed at out propensity, and ability to argue about anything and everything


 And most of the time it is just about finishing your peas.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

The sad thing is that the govt really did try to stop the use of vitamins and herbal medicines. There was a part calling for regulation of all that including topical lotions and lip balm in the original ACA bill. Thankfully it was removed during the debates.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Natural remedies that have the desired effect. If you find your self in equatorial Africa, with a bad case of chapped lips. Apply rancid zebra fat to the affected area, it won't heal the cracks, but you won't lick your lips any more.


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## mamagoose (Nov 28, 2003)

stars at night said:


> Had he been admitted to a hospital locally he had a better chance of living. I worked in an emergency room and as a medic on a rescue squad and I know this to be true. So covid did have a part in killing this man


My DH would have been dead or never fully recovered from what turned out to be a "widowmaker" heart attack at 47yo back in 2010 if I'd called the squad so he could've been taken to the "local" hospital who did not employ emergency stent docs. So, I would say that's not always true.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

GTX63 said:


> And most of the time it is just about finishing your peas.


Approximately 81% of Albertans over the age of 11 have eaten our peas yet our hospitals are on the verge of collapse. 

It's also worth mentioning that lowest percentage of pea eaters is the under 40 age group, which shocked me. I expected the holdouts to be in the 50+ range, with the exception of those living in long term care facilities.


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## Vjk (Apr 28, 2020)

Danaus29 said:


> Topical benadryl does not relieve my itching from chigger bites but the jewelweed, witch hazel and aloe combination is awesome!


Even better if you put it on BEFORE you go out .......


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

wr said:


> Approximately 81% of Albertans over the age of 11 have eaten our peas yet our hospitals are on the verge of collapse.
> 
> It's also worth mentioning that lowest percentage of pea eaters is the under 40 age group, which shocked me. I expected the holdouts to be in the 50+ range, with the exception of those living in long term care facilities.


I was not a pea fan as a child. Then as I matured I realized they were pretty good little buggers once you got to know them.
My FIL grew to dislike peas as his dementia worsened; it could have been that he also hated them as a child.
Maybe a simple thing like peas takes a mature individual to really appreciate.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)




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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

GTX63 said:


> I was not a pea fan as a child. Then as I matured I realized they were pretty good little buggers once you got to know them.
> My FIL grew to dislike peas as his dementia worsened; it could have been that he also hated them as a child.
> Maybe a simple thing like peas takes a mature individual to really appreciate.


It could be or it could also be that as a mature individual, we chose the type of peas, how they are prepared and we eat them when we feel like eating them.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

People sure seem to be forgetting the difference between actual covid illness and patients with covid OR covid symptoms AND comorbidities. Kind of a lost cause now but still a mess.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Redlands Okie said:


> People sure seem to be forgetting the difference between actual covid illness and patients with covid OR covid symptoms AND comorbidities. Kind of a lost cause now but still a mess.


The hyped up version that calls all positive cases covid, is what sells. The number of cases _with _covid but not sick _from_ covid are not attention grabbers.

I am not saying it's not a problem, but it is adding to the problem. Hospitals have been short staffed for years, people have been neglecting their health for years, some doctor office policies have caused patients to skip much needed health care. Is what we are seeing now a direct result of the mandatory shut-down when you couldn't see a doctor in person or get treatment at the hospital?


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