# Best defense against bears and wolves? Dogs?



## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

I am not really sure what forum to ask this in...hopefully I picked the right one, or close to it. 

I am planning on moving up to the Canadian north..into serious bear and wolf country. I am not worried about myself, but I am worried about some of my animals. I will be moving with about 10 horses and a miniature donkey. I think the horses might be okay. I wont be raising foals and they will all be full grown before we move up there, but I am worried about the miniature donkey. Terribly worried. I am VERY attached to the donkey and honestly if I could only take one animal it would be him. I just can't have anything happen to him. 

We are planning on putting up a strong electric fence all around the property. Like very strong. Will that actually stop bears/wolves? What about their thick fur? How many strands do I need?

Also is there any type of dog breed that would actually stand a chance against a large predator? I have been told to get a great Pyrenees, but to me they just don't look that fierce. Am I wrong? 

If I wanted to build a separate pen to keep the donkey safe inside the electric fence, how high would I have to build it to keep something from jumping in? 

I am from the prairie and I am afraid I have almost no experience with bears and wolves. Any help would be appreciated.


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## Bear (Jan 25, 2005)

Since you'll be moving into an area that has not only black bears, but grizzlies also; you might want to consider the Karelian Bear Dog. A google search will provide you with their abilities. You'll also need a high powered rifle, a shotgun and a good sidearm in the magnum caliber such as the 357 or 44 mag.


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## Raptor (Aug 29, 2005)

For a close encounter with a Griz or large Black bear I would have a 12 gauge loaded with rifled slugs,without a plug in the gun. If a handgun is your choice you will need a large bore magnum 44 being the minimum,a 357 will just make them angry unless you could get more than one head shot. Bears can move very fast.The weapons I mention will work just as well for whatever else you might encounter however I would use 00 buckshot on the canine types.

I would keep my horses and donkey in a enclosed fenced area with a perimeter of hot wire outside of that three or four wires high with the lowest about six" off the ground and the highest about 48". I also would provide enclosed shelter at night.

A single guard dog of any breed is no match for an angry bear. The bear dog that was suggested is indeed a good defense for your animals but are rarely used against bears with only one dog.

Good luck


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

We live in grizzly and wolf country and have had both on our property. We protect our livestock with 2 Great Pyrenees dogs. They do a great job and we've never had a loss. There hasn't ever been an opportunity for an angry bear...they know the dogs are here and they keep on moving.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

It's Canada. Forget the handguns.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

being able to run faster than everyone else around you is a good defense.


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## Dirtslinger (Feb 10, 2007)

Bear said:


> Since you'll be moving into an area that has not only black bears, but grizzlies also; you might want to consider the Karelian Bear Dog. A google search will provide you with their abilities. You'll also need a high powered rifle, a shotgun and a good sidearm in the magnum caliber such as the 357 or 44 mag.


Maybe they'd want a bear dog if they were out tracking bears. I'm not sure they'd be the best LGD.
Are there still grizzly bears in Saskatchewan?
Really, you don't need to be as paranoid as many people on this site seem to be, who are often without actual predators (do raccoons and possums count?).
A good shelter you can close up at night would be good for peace of mind. As would be a well installed electric fence.
Don't forget that in a healthy natural system, wild animals tend to keep to themselves. They aren't like city coyotes, always looking for a handout.


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

Gary in ohio said:


> being able to run faster than everyone else around you is a good defense.


And if you can't, then trip someone.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Your Great Pyr is going to bark when he hears something, so you need to train him as to what constitutes a threat so he's not barking at every falling leaf. When he barks, he breaks the stalking pattern of the predator. The predator then goes away. They rarely actually attack a wolf or bear, they just aren't that kind of dog.

When they come to the fence, they will put their nose on it and get zapped. This should deter an animal that is not highly motivated. You might want two dogs. I'd also keep a small guard dog in the house that will ignore most outside noises but be able to sort out a change in the big dog's barking pattern, or respond to inappropriate outside noises. This dog's barking or growling will alert you out of a sound sleep.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

i'd reccommend at least 3 LGDs and more rustic and athletic than the pyr probably kangal or ahkbash. make sure you put spiked collars on them. the bears aren't going to be the most dangerous threat. wolves are more serious because they live & work in groups and will go out of their way to kill dogs (genetic program to eliminate competition. they do the same to coyotes, in fact they will all do each other in if given the chance).
your best bet is to pop a few wolves every winter and sell the furs (prices on them w/the feet on ready for a taxidermists full body mount can be incredible). trust me they'll make more and learn to stay the heck away from your place. black bear handle the same way but are more easily intimidated than wolves (spring fur is most valuable and but fall meat is better eating). griz just does what ever it wants, although the dogs help. the big ones know they are the baddest thing walking.


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## Bear (Jan 25, 2005)

Dirtslinger said:


> Maybe they'd want a bear dog if they were out tracking bears. I'm not sure they'd be the best LGD.
> Are there still grizzly bears in Saskatchewan?
> Really, you don't need to be as paranoid as many people on this site seem to be, who are often without actual predators (do raccoons and possums count?).
> A good shelter you can close up at night would be good for peace of mind. As would be a well installed electric fence.
> Don't forget that in a healthy natural system, wild animals tend to keep to themselves. They aren't like city coyotes, always looking for a handout.


Being well armed in an area that has predators is prudent, not paranoid! Apparently you do not live in bear country nor have you had experience with big black bears trying to break in to your cabin with you inside it!!!


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## Dirtslinger (Feb 10, 2007)

LOL. I live with wolves, grizzlies, etc. A black bear trying to break into a cabin is a garbage bear, created by humans too lazy to pick up their own trash of course. Death sentence for the bear. This is quite different from a 'predatory' bear.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

For clarification...

I don't believe there are any grizzlies in Saskatchewan unless you get REALLY north...even then I don't think there are very many.

I am moving up to Fort Nelson, BC. Close to the northern rockies. In 2002 a man was killed by a black bear close to the area I will be moving to. My man is up there working and wolves and black bears are an almost daily sight. I imagine grizzlies wouldn't be far away.

I used to work at a guest ranch in BC two summers ago. I took guests out on overnight pack trips. I didn't have my firearms license so I was always without a a gun. My lead guide had one though, but that was it. In the time I was working there I saw a total of 6 grizzlies and 4 black bears. At least 3 of the grizzlies saw me too! Once when I almost rode right into one I didn't have any type of weapon with me. I just kept riding past him and he never moved. That was a bit nerve wracking considering I had 10 beginner guests with me. We were just a half mile from the ranch on a 'safe' hour long trail ride. Yikes. 

When I said I have no experience with bears/wolves I guess I meant no experience with living in midst of them.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

A 44 mag pistol will easily take out a Black Bear.With a head shot only takes one.Wondered about 357 mag,told nope,its 44 mag,forget the rest.I would take that advice.

Doesnt matter WHY the bear is aggressive,they are very dangerous.Bud deals with 'relocated' problem bears constantly,they are people fearless,very dangerous!

Electric fence? Keep dreaming,they laugh at em.At least they do where Bud lives in Northern Cal mountains.

Barking harrassing dogs are very good as Lisa said at making farm unpleasant to stop at.Poster Bear is also very bear savvy,listen to him.

Answer? Dogs and large bore weapon. I get this info from friend smack in bear country and has done the above.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I have lived in that general area and have family that has farms in that area.

Loud dogs are your best defense. A large acreage so that the animals can flee to another area of the property is second. Hot wire will work but should be a last defense as many things can go wrong with it.

The goal is too not draw the bears to your property. Poor storage of grain and feed or poor disposal of garbage will be your main problems.

Bears are animals of convience and if you make it easy for them, that is were the problems begin. Most of the time they will pass through with no problems.( Injured or sick bears are another story).

I spent many years living in Glacier National Park in Canada. I encounterd bears( blacks and grizz) on a daily basis. As long as they know where you are they will try to keep out of your way. Loud dogs will keep most of them away.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

Thanks guys! I will probably get a gun for protection, but I would probably only use it to scare the bear away if it was right in my yard. I think the bear would have to be doing something pretty darn serious for me to shoot it. It's not the bears fault I decided to build my acreage right where he lives. 

The electric fences DO keep the bears out of the oil camps. But I guess you can't rely on them because they often don't work right.


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## sungirl (Jan 23, 2008)

http://www.bearsmart.com/bearSmartCommunities/ProtectingLivestock&Crops/ElectricFencing.html


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Pops2 said:


> i'd reccommend at least 3 LGDs and more rustic and athletic than the pyr probably kangal or ahkbash. make sure you put spiked collars on them. the bears aren't going to be the most dangerous threat. wolves are more serious because they live & work in groups and will go out of their way to kill dogs (genetic program to eliminate competition. they do the same to coyotes, in fact they will all do each other in if given the chance).
> your best bet is to pop a few wolves every winter and sell the furs (prices on them w/the feet on ready for a taxidermists full body mount can be incredible). trust me they'll make more and learn to stay the heck away from your place. black bear handle the same way but are more easily intimidated than wolves (spring fur is most valuable and but fall meat is better eating). griz just does what ever it wants, although the dogs help. the big ones know they are the baddest thing walking.


Wow..it's pretty amazing that my "unathletic" Pyrs are a pair and those nasty old wolves haven't gone out of their way to take them out yet after 5 years of guarding. Nor any of our free-ranging goats or sheep. The grizzlies don't bother anything on their way through either. Maybe they're hitting the McDonald's in town?


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## Dirtslinger (Feb 10, 2007)

Spiked collars on a LGD? Where on earth do you live Pops2?


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## ldc (Oct 11, 2006)

The black bear guy for the state of Louisiana trains yellow cur dogs to run bears off. He is on the internet at "Equiterra Farms", his organic blueberry farm in Clinton. He flies all over the country with his pair, runs bears into cages to be transported to wilderness areas or chased back into the forest. ldc


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## Windy_jem (Feb 19, 2006)

Reptyle said:


> And if you can't, then trip someone.


Good one! :rotfl::rotfl:


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2008)

Dirtslinger said:


> Really, you don't need to be as paranoid as many people on this site seem to be, who are often without actual predators (do raccoons and possums count?).


LOL we have plenty of those.

The 2 potentially dangerous predators we have are cougars and badgers, but they seldom come into town.


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## Freeholder (Jun 19, 2004)

Electric fences, as has been noted, don't always function the way they are supposed to. They need a good ground in order to shock anything, and if the soil around the grounding rod is either dry or frozen, the ground rod won't work. Not to mention shorts in the line, etc.

The person in Pennsylvania who thinks it's paranoid to talk about guns when you live where there are wolves, grizzlies, and black bear, has obviously never lived in such a place themselves. When I was little (six) my mother had to shoot a black bear that was trying to find a way into our house -- she had three small children in the house, and was six months pregnant at the time. And the bear WOULD have gotten in if it had kept going. My aunt has had to shoot several grizzlies in her yard. I could tell you stories all night about bears that have HAD to be shot because otherwise they were going to hurt someone, usually by getting into the house. Guns are a tool, and sometimes they are an absolutely necessary tool. 

As far as the OP, bears usually aren't going to bother horses, unless they've got no feed. But wolf packs are a different story. A neighbor of ours in Alaska had a young mare who was running in a ranch herd in the Yukon Territory for the winter (they'd boarded her there, with their other horses). Wolves ran the horses, and gouged a huge chunk of meat out of this young mare's hindquarters -- it had happened about a year before I saw her, and I could still put my fist in the hole. I really think that wolves are the biggest danger to your horses. However, there can also be lynx and once in a while a cougar up there, too. Your mini would be in danger from either of those.

If possible, it would be best to have a closed barn to put them in at night; good fences will help (but wolves are worst in the winter, and the electric fences aren't much help then, with the ground frozen solid); a pair or trio of LGD's would be an excellent idea; and you need to keep a gun and know how to use it. If nothing else, you could have to put one of your own horses down, if it got injured badly. Doing it with a knife is not going to work well. 

Kathleen


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## copperpennykids (Sep 6, 2004)

Guns and dogs, yes! 

Great Pyrenees are awesome for Livestock Guardian Dogs. Never "train" a Pyrenees not to bark. Just because you can't see or hear the stimulus doesn't mean it isn't there. AS a puppy, Pyrenees may bark at the wrong thing but they quickly figure it out. They are hard-wired to do this job, so don't try to tell them what or how to do their job.

We raise Great Pyrenees and always have 2 dogs on General Patrol, sometimes 3 when the activity level is high. If I thought wolves were in our immediate area, I would want 3 dogs out. Just to even out the numbers advantage that the wolves would have.

2 Pyrenees can deter/chase off a mountain lion, but you need 3 or 4 to take one down. I would rather that my Pyrenees chase off/deter the predator than get in a direct confrontation (I don't like trips to the vet). And big cats don't always back off from a fight or their kill (My female Pyrenees has the scars to show for that one!)

Pyrenees are fearless and incredible fighters. They will also herd your animals into an area that allows them to more easily protect them (corner of the pen or into the barn), should the predator breech your electric fence. They are gentle to their charges, especially the young and the weak.

Sounds like quite the adventure!

Camille


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## Rondah (Apr 1, 2008)

I would recommend a couple of Ovcharka dogs  and of course guns  And fencing lol!


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## mare (Aug 31, 2006)

i dont know about bears trying to get to animals inside fences but when they move thru an area they will go right thru an electric fence--working or not


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## paulaswolfpack (May 22, 2006)

Along with the guns and dogs, I would make it a habit of going around and peeing in seeral spots.
As many times and peope that can.
We went camping at the Lostine River by Walla Walla, Org. and we all did that only had one encounter with the big ones going thru campsites, and that was a little on down the road.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Lisa
i didn't say your pyrs were unathletic, i said (and still do) that the lighter racier built kangal & akhbash is MORE athletic. just because you haven't had a problem doesn't mean you won't. hopefully the new hunts, by thinning the population and educating the remainder, will help prevent that altogether. however if a pack of wolves (a family group ranging from 3-25 individuals) or an adult grizzly decide they want your stock, you don't have the dog power to stop them. here in Iraq the locals have on average about 5 or 6 dogs with their flocks to protect them from jackals (coyote), desert lynx (big tan bobcat) and brown hyena (wolf sized loners). the smallest # i've seen is 4 and the largest had about 10. but hey i'm sure these ignorant savages don't know what they're doing.
Dirtslinger
contrary to popular belief, the spiked collar wasn't invented so ghetto boys and billybobs could make their "giant pit bulls" look tougher. it was invented to protect LGDs from wolves. wolves kill dogs (and most prey) by stretching. one grabs the throat or neck and the other grabs the flank, belly or rear and uses it's body to keep the victim from kick the head dog w/ it's rear legs. if there are more than two canines and they are fighting something with claws another will commonly bite down on the whole chest and keep squeezing. as the victim struggles it can exhale but can't inhale and so dies faster. this is normally how both sighthounds and foxhounds kill coyotes (in fact small packs of 20# jagdterriers have killed 30-40# coyotes in AL this way). this technique has also allowed as few as 3 cat dogs (40-60# normally) to kill young adult lions (80-100#). also as few as 4 beardogs have killed blacks as big as 150# this way. as horrible as this sounds it actually generates a pretty quick kill and is very exciting to see when it's done by dogs you raised and trained for the hunt.
back to the spiked collar, if a wolf can't grab the dog's neck the chances of a pack killing the dog get much lower because the dog can do great damage to the wolves that go for his flank & belly. if the fight is too hard they'll break it off and bleed him by hamstringing and tearing his flanks and then take him when shock sets in.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Pops2 said:


> but again --- do i know. i'm just some ignorant baby killer who actually listens to what ignorant foreigners have to say and likes to go out killing stuff (especially stuff that bites back) with dogs & without guns.


A decent, informational post completely ruined by this presumptive, uncalled for idea that is merely in your OWN head. Take it to GC and I'll tell you what I really think....


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Easy Day
your right! correction made.
My apologies to everyone.


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