# Would You Believe It NOW?



## Pony

What does it take for people to finally accept the fact that the so-called "vaccine" has absolutely no bearing on whether or not you'll catch/spread the bioweapon, and that it actually causes more harm than being infected with the bioweapon?

*COVID-19 Outbreak Reported on US Cruise Ship Despite Fully Vaccinated Passengers*

By Jack Phillips

December 5, 2021 Updated: December 5, 2021


At least 10 cases of COVID-19 have been reported on a Norwegian Cruise Line ship disembarking in New Orleans, officials said.

All crew members and passengers are fully vaccinated for COVID-19, said the Louisiana Department of Health. The agency did not reveal the conditions of those who were infected with the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) virus.









COVID-19 Outbreak Reported on US Cruise Ship Despite Fully Vaccinated Passengers


At least 10 cases of COVID-19 have been reported on a Norwegian Cruise Line ship disembarking in New ...




www.theepochtimes.com


----------



## Kiamichi Kid

The Kool-Aid drinkers will never admit to the facts…


----------



## painterswife

Were you under the impression that the vaccine was 100 percent effective? I never read that anywhere. Maybe you are getting your news from the wrong sources.


----------



## Lisa in WA

painterswife said:


> Were you under the impression that the vaccine was 100 percent effective? I never read that anywhere. Maybe you are getting your news from the wrong sources.


You can say that till you are blue in the face but it just whooshes right over their heads. The value of the vaccine like others is that it mitigates symptoms and mostly prevents severe illness and death.


----------



## painterswife

10 people out of 3200 passengers and staff. Less the 1/2 percent of breakthrough infections. So far under the percentage of effectiveness that in reality, it is a great outcome. Shows how great the vaccines are working.


----------



## Lisa in WA

painterswife said:


> 10 people out of 3200 passengers and staff. Less the 1/2 percent of breakthrough infections. So far under the percentage of effectiveness that in reality, it is a great outcome. Shows how great the vaccines are working.


yes, they are. I now know personally two people who have died from Covid. Both unvaccinated because one caught it before the vax was out and the other was in chemo for multiple myeloma and unable to be vaxxed. He picked up Covid somewhere and it killed him.


----------



## painterswife

Did you know that Covid has killed more officers of the law in the last year than anything else?


----------



## robin416

If none of them ends up dead or in a hospital on a ventilator then the vaccine worked. 

Ask the 700K plus that died that didn't have the chance for a vaccine how they feel about that. Oh you can't. Because they're dead.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Pony said:


> The agency did not reveal the conditions of those who were infected with the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) virus.


All ten are asymptomatic.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Pony said:


> What does it take for people to finally accept the fact that the so-called "vaccine" has absolutely no bearing on whether or not you'll catch/spread the bioweapon, and that it actually causes more harm than being infected with the bioweapon?


I‘m curious.
Were your wild-eyed conspiracy theories too much for even Country Conservatives or did you just need a broader audience for your galloping nuttery?


----------



## Evons hubby

robin416 said:


> If none of them ends up dead or in a hospital on a ventilator then the vaccine worked.
> 
> Ask the 700K plus that died that didn't have the chance for a vaccine how they feel about that. Oh you can't. Because they're dead.


Or… they were like 99% of the unvaxxed


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

We have no specific accurate insight into the actual cause of death of anyone who passed in the last 20 months. The data was skewed, fudged, and falsified.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Alice In TX/MO said:


> We have no specific accurate insight into the actual cause of death of anyone who passed in the last 20 months. The data was skewed, fudged, and falsified.


You might not, but their doctors and families do.
And following your logic, if someone died from being hit by a bus or a massive stroke, we don’t know what caused his death?
Or is it just people who died from Covid whose cause of death you mistrust Because it fits your conspiracy theory?


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

If you ask the government, the motorcycle deaths were Covid, so I am sure the “hit by a bus” deaths were caused by Covid, too.

Man who died in motorcycle crash counted as COVID-19 death in Florida: Report


----------



## a7736100

Pony said:


> What does it take for people to finally accept the fact that the so-called "vaccine" has absolutely no bearing on whether or not you'll catch/spread the bioweapon, and that it actually causes more harm than being infected with the bioweapon?
> 
> *COVID-19 Outbreak Reported on US Cruise Ship Despite Fully Vaccinated Passengers*
> 
> By Jack Phillips
> 
> December 5, 2021 Updated: December 5, 2021
> 
> 
> At least 10 cases of COVID-19 have been reported on a Norwegian Cruise Line ship disembarking in New Orleans, officials said.
> 
> All crew members and passengers are fully vaccinated for COVID-19, said the Louisiana Department of Health. The agency did not reveal the conditions of those who were infected with the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Outbreak Reported on US Cruise Ship Despite Fully Vaccinated Passengers
> 
> 
> At least 10 cases of COVID-19 have been reported on a Norwegian Cruise Line ship disembarking in New ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theepochtimes.com


Epoch Times is a source of Trump lies. I just don't know if he repeats Epoch or if it's the other way around.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Alice In TX/MO said:


> If you ask the government, the motorcycle deaths were Covid, so I am sure the “hit by a bus” deaths were caused by Covid, too.
> 
> Man who died in motorcycle crash counted as COVID-19 death in Florida: Report


oh good! An isolated incident from over a year ago!
Certainly proves your point.


----------



## no really

Cruise ship with 10 positive COVID cases heads for New Orleans, health officials say

Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article256353032.html#storylink=cpy

A cruise ship with a COVID-19 outbreak on board is heading toward New Orleans, Louisiana health officials said. A Norwegian Cruise Lines ship with 10 COVID-19 cases will disembark in the city over the weekend, the Louisiana Department of Health said Saturday, Dec. 4. More than 3,200 people are on board the ship, health officials said. The ship left New Orleans on Nov. 28 for a trip to Belize, Honduras and Mexico. It was set to return this weekend. Health officials said the cruise line has been following all quarantine and isolation protocols on the ship.

Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article256353032.html#storylink=cpy


----------



## HDRider

I don't think I would like a cruise in the best of times. These are not the best of times


----------



## Hiro

Lisa in WA said:


> oh good! An isolated incident from over a year ago!
> Certainly proves your point.


Do you trust the government provided statistics regarding the Wuflu?


----------



## mreynolds

Devil's advocate here. 

Antonio Brown and at least 2 others so far played for the NFL with fake vaccination cards. This is after intense scrutiny from there NFL who has most all of their medical records as per their contract. 

So, of someone like that could be by that long without finding out the truth, how long could us regular Joe's do it? 

A very long time.


----------



## mreynolds

no really said:


> Cruise ship with 10 positive COVID cases heads for New Orleans, health officials say
> 
> Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article256353032.html#storylink=cpy
> 
> A cruise ship with a COVID-19 outbreak on board is heading toward New Orleans, Louisiana health officials said. A Norwegian Cruise Lines ship with 10 COVID-19 cases will disembark in the city over the weekend, the Louisiana Department of Health said Saturday, Dec. 4. More than 3,200 people are on board the ship, health officials said. The ship left New Orleans on Nov. 28 for a trip to Belize, Honduras and Mexico. It was set to return this weekend. Health officials said the cruise line has been following all quarantine and isolation protocols on the ship.
> 
> Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article256353032.html#storylink=cpy


And of course they cruise line would tell them that they have followed all protocol. And maybe they did. But the one cruise I took, one you got international waters they generally guy lax.


----------



## Lisa in WA

HDRider said:


> I don't think I would like a cruise in the best of times. These are not the best of times


We went on one to Alaska. 
Yuck. 
not our thing at all.


----------



## HDRider

mreynolds said:


> Devil's advocate here.
> 
> Antonio Brown and at least 2 others so far played for the NFL with fake vaccination cards. This is after intense scrutiny from there NFL who has most all of their medical records as per their contract.
> 
> So, of someone like that could be by that long without finding out the truth, how long could us regular Joe's do it?
> 
> A very long time.


That is why HHS is upgrading the vaccination database


----------



## HDRider

Lisa in WA said:


> We went on one to Alaska.
> Yuck.
> not our thing at all.


What did you not like?

I don't like having a schedule imposed on me and I like to wander at will spending time where I like, and shorting things I do not.


----------



## Lisa in WA

HDRider said:


> What did you not like?
> 
> I don't like having a schedule imposed on me and I like to wander at will spending time where I like, and shorting things I do not.


It was kind of Las Vegasy if that makes any sense. Too many people, too “glitzy”, too many planned activities onboard and in ports, and when we were coming back from Alaska a gale hit and people were vomiting everywhere. I have no clue why they didn’t stay in their cabins if they were feeling ill .


----------



## HDRider

Lisa in WA said:


> It was kind of Las Vegasy if that makes any sense. Too many people, too “glitzy”, too many planned activities onboard and in ports, and when we were coming back from Alaska a gale hit and people were vomiting everywhere. I have no clue why they didn’t stay in their cabins if they were feeling ill .


Vegas is another thing that holds no appeal to me, other than I do like to watch people, and drink, and eat.


----------



## no really

mreynolds said:


> And of course they cruise line would tell them that they have followed all protocol. And maybe they did. But the one cruise I took, one you got international waters they generally guy lax.


That's the way it was on the cruise I took, very lax. Think I could have spent that week somewhere a lot more interesting and fun.


----------



## Hiro

Lisa in WA said:


> yes, they are. I now know personally two people who have died from Covid. Both unvaccinated because one caught it before the vax was out and the other was in chemo for multiple myeloma and unable to be vaxxed. He picked up Covid somewhere and it killed him.





Lisa in WA said:


> oh good! An isolated incident from over a year ago!
> Certainly proves your point.


----------



## MoonRiver

painterswife said:


> Did you know that Covid has killed more officers of the law in the last year than anything else?


Lack of early treatment killed them.


----------



## Hiro

HDRider said:


> Vegas is another thing that holds no appeal to me, other than I do like to watch people, and drink, and eat.


If you have never been, you should go once. It is quite the experience.


----------



## HDRider

Hiro said:


> If you have never been, you should go once. It is quite the experience.


I have had many opportunities. I just can't get past the gag reflex of it


----------



## painterswife

MoonRiver said:


> Lack of early treatment killed them.


You would think an officer of the law would know enough to get early treatment.


----------



## Hiro

HDRider said:


> I have had many opportunities. I just can't get past the gag reflex of it


I meant Las Vegas. Not interested in getting on a cruise ship ever again.


----------



## MoonRiver

painterswife said:


> 10 people out of 3200 passengers and staff. Less the 1/2 percent of breakthrough infections. So far under the percentage of effectiveness that in reality, it is a great outcome. Shows how great the vaccines are working.


In 1 or 2 days?


painterswife said:


> 10 people out of 3200 passengers and staff. Less the 1/2 percent of breakthrough infections. So far under the percentage of effectiveness that in reality, it is a great outcome. Shows how great the vaccines are working.


For a 6 day cruise that seems like a lot. I wonder if passengers will have to isolate. Let's see how many more come down with Covid in the next week before claiming what a great outcome it is,


----------



## MoonRiver

painterswife said:


> You would think an officer of the law would know enough to get early treatment.


What early treatment?


----------



## painterswife

You were the one who mentioned it. I expected you would be aware of monticlona antibodies . Guess not.


----------



## HDRider

Hiro said:


> I meant Las Vegas. Not interested in getting on a cruise ship ever again.


I was talking about Vegas too, but I react similarly to a cruise

I love boating, but I want the boat to go where and when I say


----------



## Kiamichi Kid

Hiro said:


> Do you trust the government provided statistics regarding the Wuflu?


No


----------



## Hiro

HDRider said:


> I was talking about Vegas too, but I react similarly to a cruise
> 
> I love boating, but I want the boat to go where and when I say


Las Vegas is an exciting experience. If you keep the hours that you are used to on our time, it isn't a crazy, crowded experience. Regardless, I recommend you try it out if you can find the time. If you learn the basic rules of blackjack, you can even partake in some relative gambling activities without a huge risk. That being said, I haven't been there in the last 10 years, so who knows what has become of it.


----------



## HDRider

Hiro said:


> Las Vegas is an exciting experience. If you keep the hours that you are used to on our time, it isn't a crazy, crowded experience. Regardless, I recommend you try it out if you can find the time. If you learn the basic rules of blackjack, you can even partake in some relative gambling activities without a huge risk. That being said, I haven't been there in the last 10 years, so who knows what has become of it.


I have been to a lot of casinos, played plenty of black jack, hold 'em, roulette, dice, etc. and the obligatory slot. I always went along because the group wanted to go.


----------



## Hiro

HDRider said:


> I have been to a lot of casinos, played plenty of black jack, hold 'em, roulette, dice, etc. and the obligatory slot. I always went along because the group wanted to go.


I know this seems sentimental, but I have been and played at casinos all over the US, cruise ships and the Caribbean . Heck, they are opening one up near me soon. But, none of them are the same as Vegas....as I recall it anyway. But, Ken Uston's old kitchen table is still my brothers house....so Vegas has a special place with me.


----------



## poppy

We all know that many people who died with COVID on paper actually died FROM something else. Now that it has been proven that the vaccines cause heart problems in some people, especially younger people, the narrative on that is changing. Doctors in the UK now say they are seeing big increases in heart problems, but do they even suggest it could be the vaccinations causing the problems, especially in younger people? No, not at all. They say it is due to stress from the pandemic. They say as many as 300,000 in the UK may experience these heart problems.

Thousands facing heart problems due to ‘post-pandemic stress disorder’ | Evening Standard


----------



## Lisa in WA

poppy said:


> We all know that many people who died with COVID on paper actually died FROM something else. Now that it has been proven that the vaccines cause heart problems in some people, especially younger people, the narrative on that is changing. Doctors in the UK now say they are seeing big increases in heart problems, but do they even suggest it could be the vaccinations causing the problems, especially in younger people? No, not at all. They say it is due to stress from the pandemic. They say as many as 300,000 in the UK may experience these heart problems.
> 
> Thousands facing heart problems due to ‘post-pandemic stress disorder’ | Evening Standard


So you are now using UK doctors as your source? Part of their socialist health care system? Why not use American doctors?


----------



## Kiamichi Kid

a7736100 said:


> Epoch Times is a source of Trump lies. I just don't know if he repeats Epoch or if it's the other way around.


Well maybe this is more to your liking…








17 Covid-19 cases identified on New Orleans-bound cruise ship


Seventeen cases of Covid-19 were identified on a Norwegian Cruise Line ship that disembarked in New Orleans on Sunday, according to the Louisiana Department of Health.




amp.cnn.com


----------



## Danaus29

Just imagine how many millions of people would have died if the smallpox vaccine was as "effective" as the covid vaccine.


----------



## poppy

Lisa in WA said:


> So you are now using UK doctors as your source? Part of their socialist health care system? Why not use American doctors?


Don't you trust UK doctors? I used them because the article is about them and what they are seeing. If US doctors publish an article I will use it too.


----------



## Hiro

poppy said:


> Don't you trust UK doctors? I used them because the article is about them and what they are seeing. If US doctors publish an article I will use it too.


Don't bother. I am not certain who is posting as Lisa anymore, but it is not the @Lisa in WA we knew.


----------



## Danaus29

The US has a semi-socialist health care system. Maybe US doctors aren't reporting or studying certain issues because the gov't won't fund the research. Just like this study about the vaccine and menstrual issues. It isn't being studied or reported in the US.









One in 5 women in survey said menstrual cycles changed after Covid jab


Latest London news, business, sport, showbiz and entertainment from the London Evening Standard.




www.standard.co.uk


----------



## Fennick

Pony said:


> What does it take for people to finally accept the fact that the so-called "vaccine" has absolutely no bearing on whether or not you'll catch/spread the ..... etceteras snipped .....


What I want to know is what will it take for people to finally accept the fact that now is not yet a good time for ANYBODY (vaccinated or not) to be doing any non-essential travelling anywhere in the world?

Too many people doing too much travelling too often is what caused this epidemic.


----------



## barnbilder

painterswife said:


> You would think an officer of the law would know enough to get early treatment.


You would think they would lay off the donuts long enough to stay out of the too obese to survive a respiratory virus club, but they don't.


----------



## Lisa in WA

barnbilder said:


> You would think they would lay off the donuts long enough to stay out of the too obese to survive a respiratory virus club, but they don't.


Good grief.
I know you fought hard to lose weight, BB but you sound like a religious convert sometimes. 
Its like weight loss is your hammer so every nail has become obesity.


----------



## barnbilder

Danaus29 said:


> Just imagine how many millions of people would have died if the smallpox vaccine was as "effective" as the covid vaccine.


The smallpox vaccine is a vaccine, and not a science experiment. Back when it too was a science experiment, it killed a lot of people and created a lot of vaccine hesitancy that lasted for decades.


----------



## Danaus29

The science experiment is failing. Yet the world health leaders are not pushing for a traditional dead virus vaccine. *WHY?????*


----------



## Lisa in WA

Danaus29 said:


> The science experiment is failing. Yet the world health leaders are not pushing for a traditional dead virus vaccine. *WHY?????*


As if you’d take that either.
I think you’re so afraid of getting a simple shot that you‘ve built this up into something to be hysterical about.
Don’t take the damned shot. But for the love of God, stop your delusional yammering,


----------



## Danaus29

Well bless your heart.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Danaus29 said:


> Well bless your heart.


Bless the scientists around the world who’ve spent their lives working on vaccines and drugs to help save people and have to deal with the rabble who think they know more than they do because they‘ve been caught up in a torrent of conspiracy theories,
Newsflash: Your (collective your) ignorance is not equal to their education and experience. Nor is your Google “education”.


----------



## Danaus29

Is your recent bout of nastiness the result of the vaccine or is life tossing you under the bus?


----------



## Lisa in WA

Danaus29 said:


> Is your recent bout of nastiness the result of the vaccine or is life tossing you under the bus?


Intractable ignorance pisses me off. 😊


----------



## Danaus29

Is it ignorance to see that the mRNA therapy does not keep you from getting and spreading covid? That is a proven fact. To fail to recognize that fact is ignorance.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Danaus29 said:


> Is it ignorance to see that the mRNA therapy does not keep you from getting and spreading covid? That is a proven fact. To fail to recognize that fact is ignorance.


No. One. Ever. Said. It. Did.
Why is this so hard for you to understand?
No vaccine prevents disease 100 percent. Not one.


----------



## Danaus29

The failure rate of this therapy is unknown. That is a fact.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Danaus29 said:


> The failure rate of this therapy is unknown. That is a fact.


Then don’t get the vaccine.
Why are you in such hysterics about something you didn’t get?
Because you need to drum up a better reason other than your phobia of shots?


----------



## Danaus29

Hysterics? Really? Asking reasonable questions and pointing out obvious flaws in the program are hysterics? I'll have to remember that one.


----------



## poppy

Lisa in WA said:


> No. One. Ever. Said. It. Did.
> Why is this so hard for you to understand?
> No vaccine prevents disease 100 percent. Not one.


C'mon. You know better than that. Fauci and company said vaccination levels of 60% to 70% would be enough to get us to herd immunity. Look at any data on the most vaccinated countries in the world and you will see those with the highest vaccination rates, some over 80%, are seeing some of the highest rate increases in the world. That may be your idea of success, but it isn't mine. I will admit the vaccines appear to reduce the death rate, but they have not been out long enough to know the long term effects, if any. Some of us don't see a reason to take an unproven vaccine which does not reduce infections for a disease with a death rate of a little over 1%. There is a real risk/benefit ratio we consider and some of just disagree. If this virus was killing 30 % of those infected, sure, I would take the shot and the risk.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Danaus29 said:


> *WHY?????*


----------



## MoonRiver

painterswife said:


> You were the one who mentioned it. I expected you would be aware of monticlona antibodies . Guess not.


Many states have age limits and it is not available everywhere. It wasn't available where I live until October.


----------



## MoonRiver

*Cruise ship with at least 17 coronavirus cases aboard docks in New Orleans*

It was 10 and now 17 in 1 day. No telling how many in a week!









Cruise ship with at least 17 coronavirus cases aboard docks in New Orleans


A Norwegian Cruise Line ship docked in New Orleans over the weekend with at least 17...




www.chron.com


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

I need coffee.


----------



## HDRider

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I need coffee.


Irish coffee


----------



## Tom Horn

Pony said:


> What does it take for people to finally accept the fact that the so-called "vaccine" has absolutely no bearing on whether or not you'll catch/spread the bioweapon, and that it actually causes more harm than being infected with the bioweapon?
> 
> *COVID-19 Outbreak Reported on US Cruise Ship Despite Fully Vaccinated Passengers*
> 
> By Jack Phillips
> 
> December 5, 2021 Updated: December 5, 2021
> 
> 
> At least 10 cases of COVID-19 have been reported on a Norwegian Cruise Line ship disembarking in New Orleans, officials said.
> 
> All crew members and passengers are fully vaccinated for COVID-19, said the Louisiana Department of Health. The agency did not reveal the conditions of those who were infected with the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Outbreak Reported on US Cruise Ship Despite Fully Vaccinated Passengers
> 
> 
> At least 10 cases of COVID-19 have been reported on a Norwegian Cruise Line ship disembarking in New ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theepochtimes.com


----------



## Danaus29

@Lisa in WA , just go ahead and keep making fun of me if it makes you feel better. Just wait until they bring out this therapy shot to control a more deadly disease. If 3 shots can't keep you from getting sick and spreading it, maybe a 4th one will work. A quote widely attributed to Einstein defines insanity as "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results". Sounds very much like the current vaccine mess.


----------



## Vjk

Pony said:


> What does it take for people to finally accept the fact that the so-called "vaccine" has absolutely no bearing on whether or not you'll catch/spread the bioweapon, and that it actually causes more harm than being infected with the bioweapon?
> 
> *COVID-19 Outbreak Reported on US Cruise Ship Despite Fully Vaccinated Passengers*
> 
> By Jack Phillips
> 
> December 5, 2021 Updated: December 5, 2021
> 
> 
> At least 10 cases of COVID-19 have been reported on a Norwegian Cruise Line ship disembarking in New Orleans, officials said.
> 
> All crew members and passengers are fully vaccinated for COVID-19, said the Louisiana Department of Health. The agency did not reveal the conditions of those who were infected with the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Outbreak Reported on US Cruise Ship Despite Fully Vaccinated Passengers
> 
> 
> At least 10 cases of COVID-19 have been reported on a Norwegian Cruise Line ship disembarking in New ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theepochtimes.com


Well............., these are the same people that think Putin and PingPong preferred The Donald over The Hildabeest.and that boxes of perfect unfolded mail-in ballots all for China Joe and the call girl, all with no down-ticket votes, all with the same artefact in the bubble, are not fraudulent.


----------



## Tom Horn

Pony said:


> What does it take for people to finally accept the fact that the so-called "vaccine" has absolutely no bearing on whether or not you'll catch/spread the bioweapon, and that it actually causes more harm than being infected with the bioweapon?


----------



## Hiro




----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

poppy said:


> C'mon. You know better than that. Fauci and company said vaccination levels of 60% to 70% would be enough to get us to herd immunity. Look at any data on the most vaccinated countries in the world and you will see those with the highest vaccination rates, some over 80%, are seeing some of the highest rate increases in the world. That may be your idea of success, but it isn't mine. I will admit the vaccines appear to reduce the death rate, but they have not been out long enough to know the long term effects, if any. Some of us don't see a reason to take an unproven vaccine which does not reduce infections for a disease with a death rate of a little over 1%. There is a real risk/benefit ratio we consider and some of just disagree. If this virus was killing 30 % of those infected, sure, I would take the shot and the risk.


100% this.
If the folks who label any not pro-vax as anti-vax (and nut job, for good measure) would just consider our point of view, rather than trying to demonize it, we’d all be able to get along on this issue.

First, the underlying concern, Covid, is relatively mild in the grand scheme of infectious diseases. This is not small-pox, polio, Ebola or AIDS. Covid, even if we accept the worst-case numbers, is marginally worse than the worst flu we’ve seen in a while. That doesn’t mean it’s of no concern, but perspective is important.

Second, any information and data shared with us, to this point, has been manipulated, ballooned, and decidedly unscientific. We were told we didn’t need to be concerned, right up until we were told we needed to shut down our economy. We were told we didn’t need masks, right up until we were told we had to.. and then had to wear two. Covid is transmissible in small, independent stores, but not the big boxes. Covid can get you on the way to your table in a restaurant, but not at your table. Everyone must wear a mask, unless you’re a political leader really “feeling it” and needing to belt it out when your favorite song comes on at the bar. Anyone who tests positive for Covid, or even has Covid-like symptoms at death is thrown in the column of Covid-deaths, and that number gets played every night on the evening news, right up until there’s an administration change, and that statistic is no longer so important. Two weeks will flatten the curve. 70% vaccination rates will get us herd immunity. Ivermectin is and always was good for deworming horses and nothing else- don’t claim it was, or you’re kicked off the internet.

Third, the responses to this underlying concern have been heavy-handed and, at best, marginally effective. The vaccine may, if these are the figures they’re _finally_ being honest with us about, marginally reduce your risk of getting Covid, or maybe just bad Covid… or maybe just dying from Covid. How marginal, we’re not really sure, because they inexplicably decided to spoil the control group, and then stop counting the breakthrough cases. Masks may be effective, but not the ones we’re actually using, and infection numbers (again, if they’re to be believed) track with ambient weather conditions more closely than they do the status of any mask mandates.




So, the bottom line is that we have an infectious disease with a relatively low mortality rate, about which we’ve been fed lie after lie after lie, and the response to it is draconian pressure to take a drug that is of marginal effectiveness.

That risk/benefit analysis adds up for some, and not for others. Why is that so condemnable?


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Lisa in WA said:


> As if you’d take that either.
> I think you’re so afraid of getting a simple shot that you‘ve built this up into something to be hysterical about.
> Don’t take the damned shot. But for the love of God, stop your delusional yammering,


Lisa, you’ve spent as much time and energy condemning the folks who don’t want the vaccine as anyone I’ve seen exert resisting the vaccine. If you really don’t care if they take it, why all the demonization?


----------



## Hiro

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> 100% this.
> If the folks who label any not pro-vax as anti-vax (and nut job, for good measure) would just consider our point of view, rather than trying to demonize it, we’d all be able to get along on this issue.
> 
> First, the underlying concern, Covid, is relatively mild in the grand scheme of infectious diseases. This is not small-pox, polio, Ebola or AIDS. Covid, even if we accept the worst-case numbers, is marginally worse than the worst flu we’ve seen in a while. That doesn’t mean it’s of no concern, but perspective is important.
> 
> Second, any information and data shared with us, to this point, has been manipulated, ballooned, and decidedly unscientific. We were told we didn’t need to be concerned, right up until we were told we needed to shut down our economy. We were told we didn’t need masks, right up until we were told we had to.. and then had to wear two. Covid is transmissible in small, independent stores, but not the big boxes. Covid can get you on the way to your table in a restaurant, but not at your table. Everyone must wear a mask, unless you’re a political leader really “feeling it” and needing to belt it out when your favorite song comes on at the bar. Anyone who tests positive for Covid, or even has Covid-like symptoms at death is thrown in the column of Covid-deaths, and that number gets played every night on the evening news, right up until there’s an administration change, and that statistic is no longer so important. Two weeks will flatten the curve. 70% vaccination rates will get us herd immunity. Ivermectin is and always was good for deworming horses and nothing else- don’t claim it was, or you’re kicked off the internet.
> 
> Third, the responses to this underlying concern have been heavy-handed and, at best, marginally effective. The vaccine may, if these are the figures they’re _finally_ being honest with us about, marginally reduce your risk of getting Covid, or maybe just bad Covid… or maybe just dying from Covid. How marginal, we’re not really sure, because they inexplicably decided to spoil the control group, and then stop counting the breakthrough cases. Masks may be effective, but not the ones we’re actually using, and infection numbers (again, if they’re to be believed) track with ambient weather conditions more closely than they do the status of any mask mandates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, the bottom line is that we have an infectious disease with a relatively low mortality rate, about which we’ve been fed lie after lie after lie, and the response to it is draconian pressure to take a drug that is of marginal effectiveness.
> 
> That risk/benefit analysis adds up for some, and not for others. Why is that so condemnable?


See the post above yours. No one likes to admit they were fooled, are being fooled and, apparently, will continue to be fooled. It is an especially bitter pill when other people told them they were being fooled, are being fooled and, apparently, will continue to be fooled.


----------



## painterswife

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Lisa, you’ve spent as much time and energy condemning the folks who don’t want the vaccine as anyone I’ve seen exert resisting the vaccine. If you really don’t care if they take it, why all the demonization?


She is reacting directly to the demonization by other posters of the vaccine for clearly political reasons.

They don't discuss the facts they post propaganda. No one ever said the vaccine was 100 percent effective but they sure crap all over it even when it is within the percentage it is not.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Hiro said:


> See the post above yours. No one likes to admit they were fooled, are being fooled and, apparently, will continue to be fooled. It is an especially bitter pill when other people told them they were being fooled, are being fooled and, apparently, will continue to be fooled.


I’m not one to normally question the wisdom of Twain (Orwell’s comedic soul-brother), but I don’t think that’s it- at least for all of the vaccine evangelicals.

I really do believe that many of them believe that the vaccines and masks help the problem in some significant way and/or think that the problem is serious enough that any small amount of protection is worth pursuing.

I don’t begrudge anyone believing that. What bothers me is the sophomoric peer-pressure that’s being encouraged from all angles in our society.


----------



## Hiro

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I’m not one to normally question the wisdom of Twain (Orwell’s comedic soul-brother), but I don’t think that’s it- at least for all of the vaccine evangelicals.
> 
> I really do believe that many of them believe that the vaccines and masks help the problem in some significant way and/or think that the problem is serious enough that any small amount of protection is worth pursuing.
> 
> I don’t begrudge anyone believing that. What bothers me is the sophomoric peer-pressure that’s being encouraged from all angles in our society.


I don't begrudge that belief either, right up until they petition government to force those at little risk from this disease to wear a mask (even children at school) and take an experimental vaccine (even children to go to school). That belief is worthy of my ridicule, scorn, resentment and objection.


----------



## HDRider

Plato described emotion and reason as two horses pulling us in opposite directions. 

The activities of one system are automatic and often emotional, whereas the activities of the other are controlled and never emotional. The automatic system gets things done quickly, but it is prone to error. The controlled system's mission is to keep a watchful eye and to make corrections when necessary. 

Emotions can be powerful experiences, but they usually do not last long. They sometimes make us do things we later regret. 

Things get a bit murky, though, when we try to apply calculated reasoning to social decision-making. 

The final reason not to discard emotions remains the fact that they make us act quickly and decisively. 








Reason and emotion: A Note on Plato, Darwin, and Damasio


If reason and emotion affect decision-making, which matters more?




www.psychologytoday.com


----------



## HDRider

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> sophomoric peer-pressure


It works



Hiro said:


> I don't begrudge that belief either, right up until they petition government to force those at little risk from this disease to wear a mask (even children at school) and take an experimental vaccine (even children to go to school). That belief is worthy of my ridicule, scorn, resentment and objection.


And that is where it often leads.

Instead of allowing a personal decision, quite often a regulation or a law comes about


----------



## Tom Horn

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I’m not one to normally question the wisdom of Twain (Orwell’s comedic soul-brother), but I don’t think that’s it- at least for all of the vaccine evangelicals.
> 
> I really do believe that many of them believe that the vaccines and masks help the problem in some significant way and/or think that the problem is serious enough that any small amount of protection is worth pursuing.
> 
> I don’t begrudge anyone believing that. What bothers me is the sophomoric peer-pressure that’s being encouraged from all angles in our society.



It's the difference in belief in herd immunity and herd mentality.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

painterswife said:


> She is reacting directly to the demonization by other posters of the vaccine for clearly political reasons.
> 
> They don't discuss the facts they post propaganda. No one ever said the vaccine was 100 percent effective but they sure crap all over it even when it is within the percentage it is not.


How much pressure, really, is being exerted by the _this vaccine is BS crowd_, and how big, really, is that “crowd”?

Now look at the pressure coming from your side. Folks who don’t want the vaccine are having their livelihoods threatened, their voices canceled, and are being vocally blamed for everything from nursing shortages to supply-chain SNAFUs.

Both sides (both) are seen posting items that confirm their bias- you included, quite vocally, from your respective side. Your side frequently and literally blames the other for killing untold numbers of people (_untold because you don’t really know, since you have the same flawed data that we all have_). Your side is managing to get people fired, and even drumming up support that those on the other side should be denied emergency health care.

So, tell me again how being “demonized” by the occasional article, analysis and meme is offending your side?


----------



## Pony

Fennick said:


> What I want to know is what will it take for people to finally accept the fact that now is not yet a good time for ANYBODY (vaccinated or not) to be doing any non-essential travelling anywhere in the world?
> 
> Too many people doing too much travelling too often is what caused this epidemic.


Actually, no. 

Powerful people with a desire to rule the world caused this situation.


----------



## painterswife

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> How much pressure, really, is being exerted by the _this vaccine is BS crowd_, and how big, really, is that “crowd”?
> 
> Now look at the pressure coming from your side. Folks who don’t want the vaccine are having their livelihoods threatened, their voices canceled, and are being vocally blamed for everything from nursing shortages to supply-chain SNAFUs.
> 
> Both sides (both) are seen posting items that confirm their bias- you included, quite vocally, from your respective side. Your side frequently and literally blames the other for killing untold numbers of people (_untold because you don’t really know, since you have the same flawed data that we all have_). Your side is managing to get people fired, and even drumming up support that those on the other side should be denied emergency health care.
> 
> So, tell me again how being “demonized” by the occasional article, analysis and meme is offending your side?


If you don't believe there is pressure from both sides then you are not looking at it realistically.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

painterswife said:


> If you don't believe there is pressure from both sides then you are not looking at it realistically.


Read my post again. I don’t think it said what you think it said.


----------



## painterswife

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Read my post again. I don’t think it said what you think it said.


Please show where I have at any time posted anything about the vaccines or the claims about things like ivermectin that was not the truth. My side is science, the good and the bad. I am not political about covid or do I post propaganda. I discuss the science. I want people to be vaccinated, I am not for forcing them.


----------



## a7736100

Danaus29 said:


> The science experiment is failing. Yet the world health leaders are not pushing for a traditional dead virus vaccine. *WHY?????*


's
Probably because it's not as effective. Studies with the Chinese vaccines resulted in lower protection compared to mRNA.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

painterswife said:


> Please show where I have at any time posted anything about the vaccines or the claims about things like ivermectin that was not the truth. My side is science, the good and the bad. I am not political about covid or do I post propaganda. I discuss the science. I want people to be vaccinated, I am not for forcing them.


First, please refer to your own last post. If we’re going to play the “can you show me game”, please show me where I said what you accused me of in your last post. Then I’ll oblige.


----------



## painterswife

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> First, please refer to your own last post. If we’re going to play the “can you show me game”, please show me where I said what you accused me of in your last post. Then I’ll oblige.


I admit that post was off the mark. Yours was as well. It accused me of much after I told you why I believed Lisa posted what she did.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

painterswife said:


> I admit that post was off the mark. Yours was as well. It accused me of much after I told you why I believed Lisa posted what she did.


What I accused you of was posting articles and stats that confirmed your own bias, just as vocally as anyone else, which is what the OP did here. Your original statement was: “…_reacting directly to the demonization by other posters of the vaccine for clearly political reasons_.”

I could post a list here, three pages long, of all the threads your started and responses you’ve posted that confirm your own pro-vaccine bias. You claim that your poo somehow doesn’t stink because it’s all “fact” and “science”, but the other side’s is only “political” and “propaganda”. As was pointed out above, all of the data surrounding Covid, from the beginning, was flawed and flubbed and borderline useless, so neither side can claim patent to “the science”.

You’ve left plenty of turds like this on the table (from the thread where you and Lisa shamelessly bashed the unvaccinated):


painterswife said:


> That is horrible. The pressure and strain the medical professionals are under is beyond my imagination. Unvaccinated people are contributing to the health decline of others because they can't access proper medical care.





https://www.homesteadingtoday.com/threads/vaccine-more-dangerous-than-covid.615818/page-5#post-8791032



Claiming that it’s all “fact and science”, not political or propaganda, because the TV shares the bias you take from the flawed data, does not excuse one bias over the other.


So, back to the point I was making before you derailed it: tell me how much pressure and demonization is coming from the no-vax side, and then compare it to the pressure coming from your side, which is every major news network, 99% of politicians, all of social media, and is resulting in people losing their jobs and being accused of killing people en masse.


----------



## Hiro




----------



## Danaus29

painterswife said:


> She is reacting directly to the demonization by other posters of the vaccine for clearly political reasons.
> 
> They don't discuss the facts they post propaganda. No one ever said the vaccine was 100 percent effective but they sure crap all over it even when it is within the percentage it is not.


I'm being political? 
Is it propaganda or fact that no new statistics have ever been released on the original test groups?
It is propaganda or fact that not all breakthrough cases are being reported?
Is it propaganda or fact that the CDC does not recommend quarantine after exposure for those who have been vaccinated unless they have symptoms?
Is it propaganda or fact that you can spread covid before showing symptoms?
Is is propaganda or fact that Fauci is recommending a third shot as part of the regimen?

Never mind. I know your answer.


----------



## Nevada

I've been following this story. The count is up to 17 now. I don't know if 17 out of the 3200 passengers and crew is within the predicted efficacy or not, since I haven't been able to find out which covid vaccine they were immunized with. I also haven't been able to find out which variant they have. Vaccines work better for some variants than others.

Is anyone here pretending that the breakout would have infected at least as many people if none were immunized? I think not.

But honestly, regardless of immunizations and test results, is it a good idea to take a cruise during a pandemic?


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Nevada said:


> But honestly, regardless of immunizations and test results, is it a good idea to take a cruise during a pandemic?


Maybe ask the passengers of The Diamond Princess about taking a cruise even when there isn’t a “pandemic”. That was the beginning of February, 2020, even a few weeks before we were being told to go enjoy the New Year Parade in your nearest Chinatown, nothing to worry about.


----------



## Tom Horn

Nevada said:


> But honestly, regardless of immunizations and test results, is it a good idea to take a cruise during a pandemic?


Oh, the humanity!

Hong Kong flu pandemic of 1968-1970

Woodstock, August 15–18, 1969


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Hiro said:


> View attachment 103074


More “Science!”


----------



## Hiro

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> More “Science!”
> 
> View attachment 103075
> 
> View attachment 103076


Lest we not forget, he is science, according to him.


----------



## Danaus29

But Fauci said we would be safe if we were immunized!

Seriously though, the first known covid cruise (there were likely others before tests were available) resulted in several deaths and widespread illness. There were over 700 cases before they were evacuated. Would there have been as many sick people if they were not quarantined? Was the most recent ship updated to remove some of the risk factors for getting covid?


----------



## Hiro

Danaus29 said:


> But Fauci said we would be safe if we were immunized!
> 
> Seriously though, the first known covid cruise (there were likely others before tests were available) resulted in several deaths and widespread illness. There were over 700 cases before they were evacuated. Would there have been as many sick people if they were not quarantined? Was the most recent ship updated to remove some of the risk factors for getting covid?


The Diamond Princess was a controlled experiment with human subjects. They were not quarantined in the true sense of the word. They weren't allowed off of the ship, unless they became ill. The crew still worked together, dined together and delivered meals to passengers. Passengers without balcony access were permitted to wonder about the ship for x amount of time a day.


----------



## Tom Horn




----------



## MoonRiver

painterswife said:


> Please show where I have at any time posted anything about the vaccines or the claims about things like ivermectin that was not the truth. My side is science, the good and the bad. I am not political about covid or do I post propaganda. I discuss the science. I want people to be vaccinated, I am not for forcing them.


You may believe you don't post propaganda and follow science, but you are extremely biased as to which science you choose to follow. Your claims about Ivermectin are not the full truth. I'm not sure what the exact truth is, but I know the preponderance of the evidence points to Ivermectin being a very effective treatment when used early. I know there are computer studies, in vitro studies, clinical studies, meta-analyses, and reports from hundreds of practicing doctors all showing that ivermectin is an effective and safe early treatment when administered in an appropriate dosage.


----------



## barnbilder

If we wanted to use science, we would have much broader antibody sampling going on. How do we know if the vaccine is doing anything or if people's antibodies from being exposed previously are actually doing the work? Did all of the 3200 hide under a rock for two years, get vaccinated, and then 17 got infected? I know they were having problems early on with vaccine efficacy trials in finding people to test that didn't already have antibodies. Science tells us that RNA viruses are capable of rapid and diverse mutations. Reason would tell us that as new strains emerge, infection may result if they are distinct enough that our antibodies don't recognize the new strain, regardless if those antibodies result from infection, or vaccination. 

We don't know, because there is no emphasis on antibody sampling. They started it, but they started finding out it was spread all over, and we didn't hear any more about it. Covid was detected in Barcelona sewage samples from March 2019. We are long past the pandemic stage, well into endemic status, and we are seeing new strains emerge, and we will for quite some time, possibly forever. If you want vaccine, if you want to stay off of cruise ships, I support you fully. If you want to follow science, then you should accept that this thing is going to be around for a very long time, in one form or another, regardless of lockdown, masking or vaccination mandates. You can't mandate it away, the best you can hope for is for subsequent strains to be less virulent. Science is on your side in this hope.

We have never been able to make an effective killed virus vaccine (like viruses are even alive to begin with?) for corona viruses that have been around forever. The mRNA vaccine had a shot, but doesn't appear to be any more capable to impart immunity because of the same hurdles, a rapidly shifting protein spike signature common in corona viruses. The rabid vax supporters are right, at this point, 17 out of 3200 is as good as you can get, if it stays at 17 out of 3200. You will have breakthrough cases with the most effective of vaccines. But without seeing the antibody test status of the vaccinated people prior to vaccination it's really hard to say if the vaccine had anything to do with it.


----------



## HDRider

Excellent post @barnbilder


----------



## HDRider

New York City will mandate the coronavirus vaccine for all private sector employees starting December 27 in an attempt to combat the omicron variant.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1467856456917843969


----------



## HDRider

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1467533743128670212


----------



## HDRider

From one of the master mandators

I can't figure out if I am supposed to hate rich people or get the shot


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1467622911989145618


----------



## mreynolds

I'll share my vaccine.


----------



## HDRider




----------



## MoonRiver

barnbilder said:


> We have never been able to make an effective killed virus vaccine (like viruses are even alive to begin with?) for corona viruses that have been around forever. T


Tell me about it. I made the mistake of buying Novavax stock last week.

10 day stock price


----------



## Danaus29

HDRider said:


> New York City will mandate the coronavirus vaccine for all private sector employees starting December 27 in an attempt to combat the omicron variant.


Using the same vaccine that was given to the people who have been confirmed to have brought omicron with them when they returned from their journey.


----------



## HDRider

Two studies published last month in the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) showed statistically insignificant differences between participants who received vaccinations or placebos in Pfizer and Moderna trials.

Five placebo versus two vaccinated participants died from COVID-19 or related pneumonia across the two randomized controlled trials of more than 74,000 people six to seven months later. The figures are available in each study's supplementary appendix.

All deaths reported during the vaccine trials, regardless of listed cause, were similarly close between vaccine (31) and placebo (30) groups in the two appendices.









COVID vaccine mandates undermined by research sponsored by vaccine makers, feds


Disagreement within federal government about efficacy of antiviral alternative to vaccine largely overlooked by media.




justthenews.com


----------



## a7736100

We knew that a bug will come out of Asia from time to time. We even had a playbook on what to do to avoid a pandemic. However some idiot decided he was smarter than the science and farted around while people died.


----------



## HDRider

a7736100 said:


> We knew that a bug will come out of Asia from time to time. We even had a playbook on what to do to avoid a pandemic. However some idiot decided he was smarter than the science and farted around while people died.


Let's go Brandon, and you with him


----------



## Danaus29

It was already circulating in the US before the virus was isolated and identified by Chinese researchers. 

The current man in the chair could reduce the spread of infected illegal immigrants but he chooses to ignore that problem.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Here's a thought. All the fearful people should stay home.

The rest of us will behave normally, and the virus will do what viruses do. Some folks will die in motorcycle accidents. Some will die of flu related pneumonia. Some will die of complications of obesity, diabetes, alcohol consumption, drug use, and etc. A very few will die from Covid. 

This is called natural selection and freedom.

This whole cluster is due to human beings mistakenly thinking they have more power to control nature than they actually have. 









"It's not nice to fool Mother Nature."


Watch and create more animated gifs like "It's not nice to fool Mother Nature." at gifs.com




gifs.com


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

I don't know how to imbed GIFs.


----------



## Tom Horn

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Here's a thought. All the fearful people should stay home.
> 
> The rest of us will behave normally, and the virus will do what viruses do. Some folks will die in motorcycle accidents. Some will die of flu related pneumonia. Some will die of complications of obesity, diabetes, alcohol consumption, drug use, and etc. A very few will die from Covid.
> 
> This is called natural selection and freedom.
> 
> This whole cluster is due to human beings mistakenly thinking they have more power to control nature than they actually have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "It's not nice to fool Mother Nature."
> 
> 
> Watch and create more animated gifs like "It's not nice to fool Mother Nature." at gifs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gifs.com


----------



## barnbilder

Danaus29 said:


> It was already circulating in the US before the virus was isolated and identified by Chinese researchers.
> 
> The current man in the chair could reduce the spread of infected illegal immigrants but he chooses to ignore that problem.


I personally know people who were the sickest they've ever been in November through February of 2019 that tested positive for covid antibodies as soon as such tests became available. I was sick in December then, never really felt the need for antibody testing. It was here and we survived it before most folks knew it was a thing. Now we are just dealing with variants, and will be from now on. We endured the lockdown that was supposed to protect us from a disease we already had. Still enduring the economic fallout. I remember going to a client's house and being introduced to family visitng their exchange student from China around that time. I was doing some drywall through the night with coast to coast AM on the radio in January. Heard some nut they had on there, real gravelly voiced fellow, talking about a potential disease threat he was keeping an eye on.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

mreynolds said:


> I'll share my vaccine.


I will, too. It’s the only neighborly thing to do. On request, I will come any vaccinated person’s house and spit on their doorknob. Then, when I leave, they can use their door without washing their hands.

But, in exchange, I’m going to need these fear-shotters to step up and finally do the right thing. We need them to solitary self-quarantine for the next 24-384 months so we heros of the pandemic can establish herd immunity without them shedding their mutations all over the place. Sure, many of them will lose their jobs, their housing, and may not to share last good-byes with loved ones, but that’s just the sacrifice they’re going to have to make for their irresponsibility in getting a shot that helps the virus mutate.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

I want to hear again how the other side is all “politics and propaganda”, but your side is all “science and fact”, @painterswife


----------



## HDRider

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Some folks will die in motorcycle accidents.


I do hope you were not putting a spell on me.

A rider knows the dangers, and rides


----------



## georger




----------



## Fennick

Pony said:


> Actually, no.
> 
> Powerful people with a desire to rule the world caused this situation.


Actually no. Millions of spoiled, shiftless, bored stiff people looking for entertainment who have nothing better to do than throw away their money while gallivanting around the world invading other countries they should stay away from is what caused this situation. They are called tourists and they're encouraged to come and go spreading their foreign diseases in every place they set foot.

You only believe it was caused by powerful people with a desire to rule the world because that's what you want to believe, in spite of the practical reality.

This virus developed naturally and has been mutating naturally through human encouragement and human bad habits. It was NOT created by humans and then set loose on the world. If you think it was created in Wuhan - it wasn't. It only appeared in large numbers first in Wuhan because the entire city of Wuhan is one of the largest international university cities in the world and it gets an influx of international students from everywhere in the world coming and going from there twice a year every year. They are all travellers coming together twice a year to mix and mingle themselves and their diseases in petrie dishes of their own making. All the vehicles that travellers use to get from point A to point B are petrie dishes of diseases and cruise ships are the very worst of them, they always have been. People have been incubating and spreading diseases on cruise ships for decades. Everybody know that and yet people still go on cruise ships.

What did people around the world expect would happen with so many people everywhere doing so much globe trotting and mingling with foreigners who are sick? Inadvertency and human error because of sheer thoughtlessness and self-centeredness is a lame excuse ...... but believing, wanting to believe, that it was a deliberate move by TPTB is worse, it's just plain thoughtless, ignorant stupidity.


----------



## a7736100

Danaus29 said:


> The current man the chair could reduce the spread of infected illegal immigrants but he chooses to ignore that problem.


Why not contact Congress? Even a do nothing congress should be able to pass a law to have illegal crossers vaccinated.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Fennick said:


> If you think it was created in Wuhan - it wasn't. It only appeared in large numbers first in Wuhan because the entire city of Wuhan is one of the largest international university cities in the world and it gets an influx of international students from everywhere in the world coming and going from there twice a year every year.


Why, of course! That explains it!

The outbreak started in Wuhan, China because they have a university there- which, of course, is entirely different than the thousands of universities around the world that aren’t “international” and only ever let people from their own country on campus.

That makes much more sense than it having anything to do with the huge virology lab there that was given US tax dollars to work on gain-of-function research of Corona viruses.

I’m thankful someone was finally able to set us straight on that.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

a7736100 said:


> Why not contact Congress? Even a do nothing congress should be able to pass a law to have illegal crossers vaccinated.


Really?
Congress passed the law that makes those crossings illegal.

How’s that working out?


----------



## HDRider

Fennick said:


> This virus developed naturally and has been mutating naturally through human encouragement and human bad habits. It was NOT created by humans and then set loose on the world. If you think it was created in Wuhan - it wasn't. It only appeared in large numbers first in Wuhan because the entire city of Wuhan is one of the largest international university cities in the world and it gets an influx of international students from everywhere in the world coming and going from there twice a year every year.


Can you share the CCP link on that?


----------



## Danaus29

a7736100 said:


> Why not contact Congress? Even a do nothing congress should be able to pass a law to have illegal crossers vaccinated.


Not when the majority of congress side with the man in the chair. They spout some sort of gibberish about human rights and other inconsistent nonsense.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Bah! This thing can only go on so much longer. With all the vaccine evangelicals who took the fear-shot and are actively breeding new mutations of the CCP/NHS virus, they’re eventually going to run out of Greek letters and not have any choice but to let one of them be called the Xi variant.

We all know that can’t be allowed to happen, because… you know… science and fact. It’ll go away shortly before we get back to Xi.


----------



## HDRider

Xit


----------



## Fennick

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Why, of course! That explains it!
> 
> The outbreak started in Wuhan, China because _they have a university there _- which, of course, is entirely different than the thousands of universities around the world .....


You have misunderstood, apparently not knowing what a university city is. Wuhan does not have A university there. Wuhan as a whole IS a university in a sense, it's an international _university city_ that is composed of dozens of highest ranking international universities within its boundaries. There are only 5 university cities similar to it in the world.


----------



## Fennick

HDRider said:


> Can you share the *CCP link* on that?


No. What is a CCP link?


----------



## no really

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuhan



While Wuhan has been a traditional manufacturing hub for decades, it is also one of the areas promoting modern industrial changes in China. Wuhan consists of three national development zones, four scientific and technological development parks, over 350 research institutes, 1,656 high tech enterprises, numerous enterprise incubators and investments from 230 Fortune Global 500 firms.[26] It produced GDP (nominal) of US$240 billion in 2020. The Dongfeng Motor Corporation, an automobile manufacturer, is headquartered in Wuhan. The city is home to multiple notable institutes of higher education, including Wuhan University[27] and the Huazhong University of Science and Technology. Wuhan is a major city in the world by scientific research outputs and it ranks 14th globally and 5th in China (after Beijing, Shanghai, Nanjing and Guangzhou).[28] In 2017, Wuhan was designated as a Creative City by UNESCO, in the field of design.[29] Wuhan is classified as a Beta- (global second tier) city together with seven other cities in China, including Changsha, Dalian, Jinan, Shenyang, Xiamen, Xi'an and Zhengzhou by the Globalization and World Cities Research Network.[30]


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Fennick, if you don't mind the question, how old are you?


----------



## MoonRiver

Fennick said:


> Actually no. Millions of spoiled, shiftless, bored stiff people looking for entertainment who have nothing better to do than throw away their money while gallivanting around the world invading other countries they should stay away from is what caused this situation. They are called tourists and they're encouraged to come and go spreading their foreign diseases in every place they set foot.
> 
> You only believe it was caused by powerful people with a desire to rule the world because that's what you want to believe, in spite of the practical reality.
> 
> This virus developed naturally and has been mutating naturally through human encouragement and human bad habits. It was NOT created by humans and then set loose on the world. If you think it was created in Wuhan - it wasn't. It only appeared in large numbers first in Wuhan because the entire city of Wuhan is one of the largest international university cities in the world and it gets an influx of international students from everywhere in the world coming and going from there twice a year every year. They are all travellers coming together twice a year to mix and mingle themselves and their diseases in petrie dishes of their own making. All the vehicles that travellers use to get from point A to point B are petrie dishes of diseases and cruise ships are the very worst of them, they always have been. People have been incubating and spreading diseases on cruise ships for decades. Everybody know that and yet people still go on cruise ships.
> 
> What did people around the world expect would happen with so many people everywhere doing so much globe trotting and mingling with foreigners who are sick? Inadvertency and human error because of sheer thoughtlessness and self-centeredness is a lame excuse ...... but believing, wanting to believe, that it was a deliberate move by TPTB is worse, it's just plain thoughtless, ignorant stupidity.


Is your last name Fauci? I wouldn't think you had time to post comments here at HT.


----------



## barnbilder

Here's a tip. If you are going to build a university city, don't do it in a communist dooky hole where even high level lab workers are so impoverished they would be tempted to sell lab animals to the market where other impoverished people buy their protein in the form of bats and anteaters.


----------



## Fennick

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Fennick, if you don't mind the question, how old are you?


I don't mind the question. I'm probably one of the oldest people on this forum. When I first became a member of this forum I was an octogenarian. Now I'm a nonagenarian, but I'm still sharp as a tack and still occasionally working part time and earning an income as an author and educator in natural sciences. Not collecting any dust yet, there are still too many things to do and to keep on learning and teaching about.


----------



## HDRider

I am leaving that alone


----------



## Fennick

HDRider said:


> I am leaving that alone


Of course you are.


----------



## HDRider

Fennick said:


> Of course you are.


Believe me, it has great potential - I am being nice today


----------



## Pony

Hiro said:


> Lest we not forget, he is science, according to him.
> 
> View attachment 103078


----------



## Pony

Fennick said:


> Actually no. Millions of spoiled, shiftless, bored stiff people looking for entertainment who have nothing better to do than throw away their money while gallivanting around the world invading other countries they should stay away from is what caused this situation. They are called tourists and they're encouraged to come and go spreading their foreign diseases in every place they set foot.
> 
> You only believe it was caused by powerful people with a desire to rule the world because that's what you want to believe, in spite of the practical reality.
> 
> This virus developed naturally and has been mutating naturally through human encouragement and human bad habits. It was NOT created by humans and then set loose on the world. If you think it was created in Wuhan - it wasn't. It only appeared in large numbers first in Wuhan because the entire city of Wuhan is one of the largest international university cities in the world and it gets an influx of international students from everywhere in the world coming and going from there twice a year every year. They are all travellers coming together twice a year to mix and mingle themselves and their diseases in petrie dishes of their own making. All the vehicles that travellers use to get from point A to point B are petrie dishes of diseases and cruise ships are the very worst of them, they always have been. People have been incubating and spreading diseases on cruise ships for decades. Everybody know that and yet people still go on cruise ships.
> 
> What did people around the world expect would happen with so many people everywhere doing so much globe trotting and mingling with foreigners who are sick? Inadvertency and human error because of sheer thoughtlessness and self-centeredness is a lame excuse ...... but believing, wanting to believe, that it was a deliberate move by TPTB is worse, it's just plain thoughtless, ignorant stupidity.


You keep living in your fantasy world. It would be nice if you didn't waste so much bandwidth doing it, though.


----------



## painterswife

Pony said:


> You keep living in your fantasy world. It would be nice if you didn't waste so much bandwidth doing it, though.


That is quite nasty.


----------



## HDRider

painterswife said:


> That is quite nasty.


Is it nasty to call someone nasty?


----------



## Lisa in WA

Pony said:


> You keep living in your fantasy world. It would be nice if you didn't waste so much bandwidth doing it, though.


Kind of amusing given the number of posts Fennick has compared to what you have. 
Who’s the real online gasbag here?


----------



## HDRider

Dang


----------



## Lisa in WA

HDRider said:


> Is it nasty to call someone nasty?


She called no one nasty.


----------



## HDRider

Lisa in WA said:


> She called no one nasty.


I am not as smart as you. I thought she did.

I am also not so quick with backhanded internet name calling. You will know flat out when I do it. No guessing required


----------



## Lisa in WA

HDRider said:


> I am not as smart as you. I thought she did.
> 
> I am also not so quick with backhanded internet name calling. You will know flat out when I do it. No guessing required


I’m pretty sure people know when I do it too. 😊
PW said:


painterswife said:


> That is quite nasty.


“That” refers to a thing, not a person. The thing being referred to was quite clearly the post she quoted .


----------



## HDRider

Lisa in WA said:


> “That” refers to a thing, not a person. The thing being referred to was quite clearly the post she quoted .


"That" is why I called it backhanded


----------



## painterswife

Nothing backhanded. The post was nasty. Telling another forum member not to post was nasty.


----------



## Lisa in WA

HDRider said:


> "That" is why I called it backhanded


That isn’t what backhanded means. 
She was quite clear.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

I thought it was passively aggressive and quite clever.

Point to Pony.


----------



## Hiro

painterswife said:


> Nothing backhanded. The post was nasty. Telling another forum member not to post was nasty.


@Pony didn't tell @Fennick not to post. It wasn't even nasty. Telling everyone else what they should do with their own time and money is nasty. Claiming to know for a fact the Wuflu is a natural pathogen and ignoring all the other evidence to the contrary is arrogant or ignorant or, most likely, both.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I thought it was passively aggressive and quite clever.
> 
> Point to Pony.



The post was simple , blunt and to the point. Or maybe you can explain where the passivity occurs in that short sentence.



painterswife said:


> That is quite nasty.


I see a subject, verb, adverb and adjective.
Point to Painterswife.


----------



## Fennick

Pony telling me that I'm wasting bandwidth on her doesn't offend me. I thought she was funny and at least she was being honest about her own handicap that she's had all her life. I know she thought she was insulting me, as was her intention, because she's feeling resentful. But the way I interpreted her message was different from how she intended it to be interpreted. 

In fact she was simply letting me know the only way she can that she has an impractical imagination, she has a short attention span and is unable to absorb or focus on anything written that's more than 2 or 3 sentences long. She's right that my post was a waste of bandwidth on her. 

I recognize that many people have similar handicap (probably born with attention deficit disorder) and I won't fault them for a handicap they have no control over. But that particular handicap is their problem, not mine and there's nothing I want to do about it to help them with something they can only try to help themselves with. So displaying their resentment towards me about having such a handicap is of no concern to me. 

I'd suggest that if my posts are too hard and too articulate to read for anyone with a short attention span and inability to concentrate on anything that goes over their head then they should just not try to read them. It won't bother me if they don't read my posts.


----------



## Hiro

Arrogance and ignorance is a dangerous combination.


----------



## Redlands Okie

Lisa in WA said:


> You can say that till you are blue in the face but it just whooshes right over their heads. The value of the vaccine like others is that it mitigates symptoms and mostly prevents severe illness and death.


This is incorrect. Most vaccine prevent getting the disease its made for. This covid vaccine seems to only help some get less sick. Better than nothing I guess.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Redlands Okie said:


> This is incorrect. Most vaccine prevent getting the disease its made for. This covid vaccine seems to only help some get less sick. Better than nothing I guess.


My statement is correct. I can think of four vaccines off the top
of my head that mitigate symptoms. Even if they can’t stop infection: Flu, rotavirus, chicken pox and Shingles.
But I would love to hear which vaccine you think is 100 percent effective in every single patient.


----------



## Redlands Okie

Fennick said:


> What I want to know is what will it take for people to finally accept the fact that now is not yet a good time for ANYBODY (vaccinated or not) to be doing any non-essential travelling anywhere in the world?
> 
> Too many people doing too much travelling too often is what caused this epidemic.


Thats amusing, leave the house and go into a populated area is all it takes.


----------



## Redlands Okie

Nevada said:


> I've been following this story. The count is up to 17 now. I don't know if 17 out of the 3200 passengers and crew is within the predicted efficacy or not, since I haven't been able to find out which covid vaccine they were immunized with. I also haven't been able to find out which variant they have. Vaccines work better for some variants than others.
> 
> Is anyone here pretending that the breakout would have infected at least as many people if none were immunized? I think not.
> 
> But honestly, regardless of immunizations and test results, is it a good idea to take a cruise during a pandemic?


Two or three percent of the people have died from covid. (Thats with the creative statistic that have been used to get it that high). Now the vaccines are reducing the chance of those very few people from getting sick enough to go to the hospital. Seems to be very little reason to stay home.


----------



## Fennick

Hiro said:


> Arrogance and ignorance is a dangerous combination.


That's true and it can be said of every one of us with regard to the corona virus. Especially when people are not being practical about its origins and how it spreads.

I will always stand by my assertion that if there were not so many millions of people doing non-essential travelling all over the world to suit their personal entitlement whimsy there would never have been a problem with this virus and the world would not be dealing with a pandemic at this time. 

Every epidemic and pandemic that has happened in the world throughout known human history has been the result of humans travelling to foreign places and taking their home-grown diseases there with them to spread around and bringing back home other diseases from other places. Now with so many billions of people on the planet coming and going, spreading their diseases everywhere, I think 21st century society has reached its tipping point over onto the downward slope.


----------



## barnbilder

Fennick said:


> That's true and it can be said of every one of us with regard to the corona virus. Especially when people are not being practical about its origins and how it spreads.
> 
> I will always stand by my assertion that if there were not so many millions of people doing non-essential travelling all over the world to suit their personal entitlement whimsy there would never have been a problem with this virus and the world would not be dealing with a pandemic at this time.
> 
> Every epidemic and pandemic that has happened in the world throughout known human history has been the result of humans travelling to foreign places and taking their home-grown diseases there with them to spread around and bringing back home other diseases from other places. Now with so many billions of people on the planet coming and going, spreading their diseases everywhere, I think 21st century society has reached its tipping point over onto the downward slope.


It is a self limiting system if you would kindly step out of Mr. Darwin's way.

edited to add-
Who get's to decide whose travel is essential? You? Chairman Mao?


----------



## Pony

Hiro said:


> Arrogance and ignorance is a dangerous combination.


LOL.

Is "liking" a post that implies you're arrogant and ignorant both arrogant and ignorant?


----------



## no really

Fennick said:


> That's true and it can be said of every one of us with regard to the corona virus. Especially when people are not being practical about its origins and how it spreads.
> 
> I will always stand by my assertion that if there were not so many millions of people doing non-essential travelling all over the world to suit their personal entitlement whimsy there would never have been a problem with this virus and the world would not be dealing with a pandemic at this time.
> 
> Every epidemic and pandemic that has happened in the world throughout known human history has been the result of humans travelling to foreign places and taking their home-grown diseases there with them to spread around and bringing back home other diseases from other places. Now with so many billions of people on the planet coming and going, spreading their diseases everywhere, I think 21st century society has reached its tipping point over onto the downward slope.


Time to close the southern border than. Sure a lot of traveling from in that area.


----------



## Lisa in WA

no really said:


> Time to close the southern border than. Sure a lot of traveling from in that area.


Agreed.


----------



## gilberte

Fennick said:


> That's true and it can be said of every one of us with regard to the corona virus. Especially when people are not being practical about its origins and how it spreads.
> 
> I will always stand by my assertion that if there were not so many millions of people doing non-essential travelling all over the world to suit their personal entitlement whimsy there would never have been a problem with this virus and the world would not be dealing with a pandemic at this time.
> 
> Every epidemic and pandemic that has happened in the world throughout known human history has been the result of humans travelling to foreign places and taking their home-grown diseases there with them to spread around and bringing back home other diseases from other places. Now with so many billions of people on the planet coming and going, spreading their diseases everywhere, I think 21st century society has reached its tipping point over onto the downward slope.


But at this point the sudden stop at the end of the fall is inevitable.


----------



## HDRider

Lisa in WA said:


> That isn’t what backhanded means.


 Oblique, Roundabout, Indirect or Evasive


----------



## Lisa in WA

HDRider said:


> Oblique, Roundabout, Indirect or Evasive
> View attachment 103110


And the post in question was the opposite of this definition. 
It was quite straightforward.


----------



## HDRider

Lisa in WA said:


> And the post in question was the opposite of this definition.
> It was quite straightforward.


At least now we understand each other. We disagree, but communication is clear


----------



## HDRider

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1467335957506625538


----------



## HDRider

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1468042518306574341


----------



## Danaus29

I liked when the other cop quickly pulled his mask up when the camera was turned to him.


----------



## poppy

barnbilder said:


> I personally know people who were the sickest they've ever been in November through February of 2019 that tested positive for covid antibodies as soon as such tests became available. I was sick in December then, never really felt the need for antibody testing. It was here and we survived it before most folks knew it was a thing. Now we are just dealing with variants, and will be from now on. We endured the lockdown that was supposed to protect us from a disease we already had. Still enduring the economic fallout. I remember going to a client's house and being introduced to family visitng their exchange student from China around that time. I was doing some drywall through the night with coast to coast AM on the radio in January. Heard some nut they had on there, real gravelly voiced fellow, talking about a potential disease threat he was keeping an eye on.


No doubt this new variant was already wide spread before it was known about also. Mild cases that were never gene sequenced


----------



## Tom Horn

Pony said:


> What does it take for people to finally accept the fact that the so-called "vaccine" has absolutely no bearing on whether or not you'll catch/spread the bioweapon, and that it actually causes more harm than being infected with the bioweapon?


----------



## Tom Horn




----------



## Lisa in WA




----------



## Pony

One variant that seems to become more virulent with each passing day is the one where people are shown solid facts, and rather than acknowledge the facts, turn on the person who shared them. 

I think it's called the "Shoot the Messenger" variant. The worse it becomes, the more vicious the behavior of those infected. In some folks, it has reached the "Destroy the Messenger No Matter What" stage.

Pretty pathetic.


----------



## Tom Horn

Lisa in WA said:


> View attachment 103114


----------



## painterswife

Pony said:


> One variant that seems to become more virulent with each passing day is the one where people are shown solid facts, and rather than acknowledge the facts, turn on the person who shared them.
> 
> I think it's called the "Shoot the Messenger" variant. The worse it becomes, the more vicious the behavior of those infected. In some folks, it has reached the "Destroy the Messenger No Matter What" stage.
> 
> Pretty pathetic.


 I love that. The facts are that no vaccine is ever 100 percent effective. If anyone believed that then they are their own greatest problem.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Tom Horn said:


> View attachment 103116


Those who post memes constantly in place of cogent argument obviously are too stupid to do anything else.


----------



## po boy

We can all agree that we don't agree! 
It's five o'clock somewhere.


----------



## HDRider

Lisa in WA said:


> Those who post memes constantly in place of cogent argument obviously are too stupid to do anything else.


I am going to save this post


----------



## Lisa in WA

HDRider said:


> I am going to save this post


Please do.
If you can ever provide examples of me “constantly posting memes”, you will have a point. Until then, it’s just a backhanded threat that you’ve employed before.


----------



## HDRider

Lisa in WA said:


> Please do.
> If you can ever provide examples of me “constantly posting memes”, you will have a point. Until then, it’s just a backhanded threat that you’ve employed before.


I guess it is our disagreement on what "constantly" means

I say it means on a regular basis, or appreciable percentage.

PS - I see you learned the meaning of "backhanded".


----------



## Tom Horn

Lisa in WA said:


> Those who post memes constantly in place of cogent argument obviously are too stupid to do anything else.


Those who are incapable of appreciating satire, double entendre and the finer points of subtility within the English language will never appreciate memes.


----------



## painterswife

Using memes to try to insult other posters seems to be the new go-to personal attack.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Tom Horn said:


> Those who are incapable of appreciating satire, double entendre and the finer points of subtility within the English language will never appreciate memes.


Since you are such a master of the English language, I am dying to hear what “subtility” is.


----------



## Tom Horn

painterswife said:


> Using memes to try to insult other posters seems to be the new go-to personal attack.


FYI, an appropriate meme for the occasion indicates that it applies to a rather large segment of society, elsewise it would not be humorous to an even broader segment of the same society, therefore it is not personal, nor an attack, it is merely categorizing.


----------



## Lisa in WA

HDRider said:


> I guess it is our disagreement on what "constantly" means
> 
> I say it means on a regular basis, or appreciable percentage.
> 
> PS - I see you learned the meaning of "backhanded".


I even used it correctly. If you practice, you can too.


----------



## painterswife

Tom Horn said:


> FYI, an appropriate meme for the occasion indicates that it applies to a rather large segment of society, elsewise it would not be humorous to an even broader segment of the same society, therefore it is not personal, nor an attack, it is merely categorizing.


According to you but it is obvious how they are used here.


----------



## Lisa in WA

painterswife said:


> According to you but it is obvious how they are used here.


You’re arguing with someone who is so impressed with himself, that he thinks each new joke he comes across deserves it’s own thread.


----------



## Tom Horn

HDRider said:


> I guess it is our disagreement on what "constantly" means
> 
> I say it means on a regular basis, or appreciable percentage.
> 
> PS - I see you learned the meaning of "backhanded".


Would yours be a right or left handed backhanded threat?

Just trying to pay you a compliment.


----------



## Tom Horn

Lisa in WA said:


> Since you are such a master of the English language, I am dying to hear what “subtility” is.


*subtility

sub·tile*
(sŭt′l, sŭb′təl)
_adj._
Subtle.
​[Middle English, from Old French subtil, from Latin subtīlis, _fine, delicate_; see *subtle*.]
​*sub′tile·ly*_ adv._
*sub·til′i·ty* (səb-tĭl′ĭ-tē), *sub′tile·ness* (sŭt′l-nĭs, sŭb′təl-), *sub′til·ty* (sŭt′l-tē, sŭb′təl-)_ n._

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/subtility


----------



## Tom Horn

painterswife said:


> According to you but it is obvious how they are used here.


Do you get all of your exercise rushing to judgement and jumping to conclusions?


----------



## Lisa in WA

Tom Horn said:


> *subtility
> 
> sub·tile*
> (sŭt′l, sŭb′təl)
> _adj._
> Subtle.
> 
> [Middle English, from Old French subtil, from Latin subtīlis, _fine, delicate_; see *subtle*.]
> 
> *sub′tile·ly*_ adv._
> *sub·til′i·ty* (səb-tĭl′ĭ-tē), *sub′tile·ness* (sŭt′l-nĭs, sŭb′təl-), *sub′til·ty* (sŭt′l-tē, sŭb′təl-)_ n._
> 
> https://www.thefreedictionary.com/subtility


so you picked that one word to speak in Old French? Please tell me about your time travels.


----------



## painterswife

Tom Horn said:


> Do you get all of your exercise rushing to judgement and jumping to conclusions?


Well, at least you did not use a meme this time.


----------



## Tom Horn

Lisa in WA said:


> You’re arguing with someone who is so impressed with himself, that he thinks each new joke he comes across deserves it’s own thread.



Ahhhh, my adoring public. Although they have choices about which threads to give their attention to, they are drawn to mine like moths to a flame.

I'm so glad that my jokes are a such a bright spot in their otherwise dark and dreary lives.


----------



## Danaus29

painterswife said:


> I love that. The facts are that no vaccine is ever 100 percent effective. If anyone believed that then they are their own greatest problem.


No one really knows how effective this "vaccine" is. The scientists, researchers and developers had the opportunity to study it's efficiency rate beyond the very limited study phase but just didn't bother. For all we know it might prevent covid in only 20% of cases. Lock some fully vaccinated volunteers in a room with a known covid case and test them daily for 2 weeks. Then we would have a good example of the efficacy rate.


----------



## painterswife

Danaus29 said:


> No one really knows how effective this "vaccine" is. The scientists, researchers and developers had the opportunity to study it's efficiency rate beyond the very limited study phase but just didn't bother. For all we know it might prevent covid in only 20% of cases. Lock some fully vaccinated volunteers in a room with a known covid case and test them daily for 2 weeks. Then we would have a good example of the efficacy rate.


They use the same methods to collect data as they do with all vaccines.


----------



## Tom Horn

painterswife said:


> Well, at least you did not use a meme this time.


A meme? Challenge accepted!


----------



## Lisa in WA

Oohhh….he’s an angry elf.


----------



## Tom Horn

Lisa in WA said:


> so you picked that one word to speak in Old French? Please tell me about your time travels.



It's an actual word.

Deal with it.

I picked it up while I was hanging out with the Three Musketeers.

Not the candy bar.

pardonnez-moi, parlez-vous anglais avec moi s’il vous plaît


----------



## Danaus29

painterswife said:


> They use the same methods to collect data as they do with all vaccines.


Not exactly. They assured the public that the original test subjects would be monitored for the next few years with updated reports regarding covid status. The control group was to be monitored with updated reports regarding covid status. There have been no new reports since the emergency approval was given. The control group was notified they were given a placebo and offered the vaccine, effectively eliminating the control group.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

HAHAHAHA. 

You need to watch the Robert Kennedy video and read his book.

The test subjects for the injections (all the folks who fell for the fear campaign) were not informed and didn't give informed consent. This is pretty much a quote from the assistant director at the test clinic where I'm participating in a RSV trial.


Pure Bloods are the control group.


----------



## painterswife

Danaus29 said:


> Not exactly. They assured the public that the original test subjects would be monitored for the next few years with updated reports regarding covid status. The control group was to be monitored with updated reports regarding covid status. There have been no new reports since the emergency approval was given. The control group was notified they were given a placebo and offered the vaccine, effectively eliminating the control group.


You don't have the data yet. That does not preclude it from being available in the future. Placebo groups are never continued indefinitely and it is unethical to continue them when it is proven that the vaccine is effective and safe.

They already have more data on these vaccines than they do on any vaccine in the last few decades.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

How many vaccines have completed a preclinical trial to be proven safe and effective?









Robert F. Kennedy Jr. on Tucker Carlson Today (November 15, 2021)







www.bitchute.com













The Lazarus Report


This is the report of the only study examining the reliability and effectiveness of reporting on Adverse Events resulting from Vaccines. The findings? Only ONE Percent of Adverse Events resulting f…




decodingthedeception.com


----------



## Danaus29

painterswife said:


> You don't have the data yet. That does not preclude it from being available in the future. Placebo groups are never continued indefinitely and it is unethical to continue them when it is proven that the vaccine is effective and safe.
> 
> They already have more data on these vaccines than they do on any vaccine in the last few decades.


Of course it will be available in the future, 55 years from now.









Wait what? FDA wants 55 years to process FOIA request over vaccine data


Freedom of Information Act requests are rarely speedy, but when a group of scientists asked the federal government to share the data it relied upon in licensing Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine, the response went beyond typical bureaucratic foot-dragging.




www.reuters.com


----------



## Lisa in WA

Alice In TX/MO said:


> HAHAHAHA.
> 
> You need to watch the Robert Kennedy video and read his book.
> 
> The test subjects for the injections (all the folks who fell for the fear campaign) were not informed and didn't give informed consent. This is pretty much a quote from the assistant director at the test clinic where I'm participating in a RSV trial.
> 
> 
> Pure Bloods are the control group.


When you’ve gone around the bend so far as to refer to yourself and other unvaccinated people as “pure bloods” I think it’s time for you to get some help. I will put you on ignore. I don’t want to mess with the mentally ill. Good luck and god bless, Alice. I genuinely hope for the best for you.


----------



## barnbilder

This reminds me of a meme that Thomas Jefferson posted. One does not simply do the time warp into Hogwarts.


----------



## Lisa in WA

…….


----------



## Lisa in WA

******


----------



## Lisa in WA

****


----------



## JeffreyD

Fennick said:


> Actually no. Millions of spoiled, shiftless, bored stiff people looking for entertainment who have nothing better to do than throw away their money while gallivanting around the world invading other countries they should stay away from is what caused this situation. They are called tourists and they're encouraged to come and go spreading their foreign diseases in every place they set foot.
> 
> You only believe it was caused by powerful people with a desire to rule the world because that's what you want to believe, in spite of the practical reality.
> 
> This virus developed naturally and has been mutating naturally through human encouragement and human bad habits. It was NOT created by humans and then set loose on the world. If you think it was created in Wuhan - it wasn't. It only appeared in large numbers first in Wuhan because the entire city of Wuhan is one of the largest international university cities in the world and it gets an influx of international students from everywhere in the world coming and going from there twice a year every year. They are all travellers coming together twice a year to mix and mingle themselves and their diseases in petrie dishes of their own making. All the vehicles that travellers use to get from point A to point B are petrie dishes of diseases and cruise ships are the very worst of them, they always have been. People have been incubating and spreading diseases on cruise ships for decades. Everybody know that and yet people still go on cruise ships.
> 
> What did people around the world expect would happen with so many people everywhere doing so much globe trotting and mingling with foreigners who are sick? Inadvertency and human error because of sheer thoughtlessness and self-centeredness is a lame excuse ...... but believing, wanting to believe, that it was a deliberate move by TPTB is worse, it's just plain thoughtless, ignorant stupidity.


The department of Justice arrested 2 Chinese nationals who were part of the peoples republic army, trying to leave America with vials of ????
The American Dr. they were working with was also arrested. The were doing gain of function research for the lab in Wuhan. You can find the case on the doj website.
No, nothing from Wuhan.......you were saying??


----------



## JeffreyD

Alice In TX/MO said:


> HAHAHAHA.
> 
> You need to watch the Robert Kennedy video and read his book.
> 
> The test subjects for the injections (all the folks who fell for the fear campaign) were not informed and didn't give informed consent. This is pretty much a quote from the assistant director at the test clinic where I'm participating in a RSV trial.
> 
> 
> Pure Bloods are the control group.


I just got a copy of his book.....scary. He won't be sued either because its all true. Fauci is a chronic lier. Rfk jr proves it.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Article about Chinese nationals and doctor for reference:








Harvard University Professor and Two Chinese Nationals Charged in Three Separate China Related Cases


The Department of Justice announced today that the Chair of Harvard University’s Chemistry and Chemical Biology Department and two Chinese nationals have been charged in connection with aiding the People’s Republic of China.




www.justice.gov


----------



## JeffreyD

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Article about Chinese nationals and doctor for reference:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harvard University Professor and Two Chinese Nationals Charged in Three Separate China Related Cases
> 
> 
> The Department of Justice announced today that the Chair of Harvard University’s Chemistry and Chemical Biology Department and two Chinese nationals have been charged in connection with aiding the People’s Republic of China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.justice.gov


 Im at a computer now and you beat me to it!


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter

(pops popcorn)


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

I am confused. Thomas Jefferson posted a meme? About Hogwarts?


----------



## thesedays

Lisa in WA said:


> yes, they are. I now know personally two people who have died from Covid. Both unvaccinated because one caught it before the vax was out and the other was in chemo for multiple myeloma and unable to be vaxxed. He picked up Covid somewhere and it killed him.


The closest I am to a COVID death was a friend of my dad's, whom I never met, who was 78 years old, obese, had uncontrolled diabetes, and while Dad never saw him drink, was probably an alcoholic.

FTR, I am fully vaccinated and will not apologize for it.


----------



## Pony

thesedays said:


> The closest I am to a COVID death was a friend of my dad's, whom I never met, who was 78 years old, obese, had uncontrolled diabetes, and while Dad never saw him drink, was probably an alcoholic.
> 
> FTR, I am fully vaccinated and will not apologize for it.


Why would anyone want you to apologize for making your own choices? 

You made your choice, as has everyone else. 

Free country (for now), right?


----------



## Hiro

Vaccines encourage mutation of Wuflu

The good news appears to be it evolving as most coronaviruses to become more transmissible and have a lower mortality rate.


----------



## Danaus29

thesedays said:


> FTR, I am fully vaccinated and will not apologize for it.


I don't recall anyone asking the vaccinated to apologize for their decision. No one has wished 3rd arms or death on those who choose to be vaccinated.

I helped my son set up his appointment and tried to help him with his booster. 

Each person needs to make that decision based on their medical history, exposure to the virus and their own personal beliefs.


----------



## barnbilder

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I am confused. Thomas Jefferson posted a meme? About Hogwarts?


I don't know, I thought he was referencing The Rocky Horror Picture Show. I don't keep up with Star Trek well enough to know anything about Hogwarts, is that the one with Chewbacca?


----------



## Danaus29

I thought Hogwarts was a _Green Acres_ episode about Arnold Ziffle.


----------



## GTX63

Could be an STD.


----------



## Vjk

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Article about Chinese nationals and doctor for reference:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harvard University Professor and Two Chinese Nationals Charged in Three Separate China Related Cases
> 
> 
> The Department of Justice announced today that the Chair of Harvard University’s Chemistry and Chemical Biology Department and two Chinese nationals have been charged in connection with aiding the People’s Republic of China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.justice.gov


This was actually one of a couple dozen such cases. The Ministry of Propaganda successfully put the kibosh on most of the dissemination


----------



## Nevada

thesedays said:


> The closest I am to a COVID death was a friend of my dad's, whom I never met, who was 78 years old, obese, had uncontrolled diabetes, and while Dad never saw him drink, was probably an alcoholic.


Is your point that he didn't deserve to live?


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Nevada said:


> Is your point that he didn't deserve to live?


Do you think Wolf Blitzer thinks you deserve the truth?


----------



## Lisa in WA

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Do you think Wolf Blitzer thinks you deserve the truth?


Nope. 
CNN is as bad as FOX and MSNBC.
All they want is what’s best for their ratings.


----------



## HDRider

Lisa in WA said:


> Nope.
> CNN is as bad as FOX and MSNBC.
> All they want is what’s best for their ratings.


For the sake of argument, let's agree the bias of Fox exists in equal measure the bias of MSNBC. Do we not want one as a counter weight to the other? 

As you said, we have to accept media will only act to secure higher ratings


----------



## mreynolds

Nevada said:


> Is your point that he didn't deserve to live?


That wasn't what I saw when I read that post. Strange that was what you saw though.


----------



## Nevada

HDRider said:


> For the sake of argument, let's agree the bias of Fox exists in equal measure the bias of MSNBC. Do we not want one as a counter weight to the other?


It doesn't really matter. If viewers don't like reality they'll say it's false news.


----------



## Lisa in WA

HDRider said:


> For the sake of argument, let's agree the bias of Fox exists in equal measure the bias of MSNBC. Do we not want one as a counter weight to the other?
> 
> As you said, we have to accept media will only act to secure higher ratings


I didn’t say one should be banned. I said they are all bad.
People who watch Fox are just confirming their bias to the right and people who watch MSNBC are confirming their bias to the left.
I do find it amusing that you clearly don’t believe that Fox is as bad about bias as the others.
What is sad is that there are so few independent thinkers.


----------



## painterswife

Watching any US cable news channel is just being spoonfed a biased point of view. Turn them all off and start searching out the US stories on international channels. It may not always be biased-free but it is way better than what is on the air here.


----------



## mreynolds

Nevada said:


> It doesn't really matter. If viewers don't like reality, they'll say it's false news.


  

Tell us what is the reality then. Tell me what to watch that is reality and I swear I will watch it for a least a week and get back to you. Nothing else but what you tell me to watch.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Nevada said, “Is your point that he didn't deserve to live?”

What an incredibly ugly interpretation and assumption.


----------



## HDRider

Lisa in WA said:


> I didn’t say one should be banned. I said they are all bad.
> People who watch Fox are just confirming their bias to the right and people who watch MSNBC are confirming their bias to the left.
> I do find it amusing that you clearly don’t believe that Fox is as bad about bias as the others.
> What is sad is that there are so few independent thinkers.


I admit, without qualification, I am maybe the most biased person you would ever hope to not meet.

It took me years of independent thinking to develop my bias. 

I believe there is a right, and I believe there is a wrong. 

I believe a man is a man, and a woman is a woman. 

You can carry my biases as far as you might want from there. I am happy to confirm any guesses or answer any questions you might have.

A person who claims to have no bias is simply blind to their bias


----------



## Nevada

mreynolds said:


> Tell us what is the reality then. Tell me what to watch that is reality and I swear I will watch it for a least a week and get back to you. Nothing else but what you tell me to watch.


I'm not the right person to ask, since I don't get CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, or any other cable channels for that matter. All I get is over-the-air broadcasting. It's hard to justify cable fees when I get 25 channels (more or less) for free.


----------



## Lisa in WA

HDRider said:


> I admit, without qualification, I am maybe the most biased person you would ever hope to not meet.
> 
> It took me years of independent thinking to develop my bias.
> 
> I believe there is a right, and I believe there is a wrong.
> 
> I believe a man is a man, and a woman is a woman.
> 
> You can carry my biases as far as you might want from there. I am happy to confirm any guesses or answer any questions you might have.
> 
> A person who claims to have no bias is simply blind to their bias


Which really has nothing to do with what I said.
Carry on.


----------



## HDRider

Lisa in WA said:


> Which really has nothing to do with what I said.
> Carry on.


Whatever you say Lisa. Whatever you say


----------



## Nevada

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Nevada said, “Is your point that he didn't deserve to live?”
> 
> What an incredibly ugly interpretation and assumption.


I'm reminded of the time when Alma's insurance company asked me to stop taking her to the hospital because it was expensive and she was going to eventually die anyway. I thought we were past pretending those attitudes don't exist.


----------



## JeffreyD

mreynolds said:


> Tell us what is the reality then. Tell me what to watch that is reality and I swear I will watch it for a least a week and get back to you. Nothing else but what you tell me to watch.


"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
World famous Adam Savage...


----------



## JeffreyD

Nevada said:


> I'm not the right person to ask, since I don't get CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, or any other cable channels for that matter. All I get is over-the-air broadcasting. It's hard to justify cable fees when I get 25 channels (more or less) for free.


Yet you post quotes from cnn and msnbc in quantity. Bwaaahaaa....we just can't take you seriously!


----------



## JeffreyD

Nevada said:


> I'm reminded of the time when Alma's insurance company asked me to stop taking her to the hospital because it was expensive and she was going to eventually die anyway. I thought we were past pretending those attitudes don't exist.


Not as far as the left is concerned.


----------



## po boy

Nevada said:


> I'm reminded of the time when Alma's insurance company asked me to stop taking her to the hospital because it was expensive and she was going to eventually die anyway. I thought we were past pretending those attitudes don't exist.


That is more or less what Gov. Groper Emmy said.


----------



## mreynolds

Nevada said:


> I'm not the right person to ask, since I don't get CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, or any other cable channels for that matter. All I get is over-the-air broadcasting. It's hard to justify cable fees when I get 25 channels (more or less) for free.


Then where do you get your reality from? I get over the air too.


----------



## barnbilder

Nevada said:


> Is your point that he didn't deserve to live?


Don't confuse "couldn't reasonably expect to" with "didn't deserve to".


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Lisa in WA said:


> Nope.
> CNN is as bad as FOX and MSNBC.
> All they want is what’s best for their ratings.





Lisa in WA said:


> I didn’t say one should be banned. I said they are all bad.
> People who watch Fox are just confirming their bias to the right and people who watch MSNBC are confirming their bias to the left.
> I do find it amusing that you clearly don’t believe that Fox is as bad about bias as the others.
> What is sad is that there are so few independent thinkers.


I fully accept that my position in this is going to essentially be a “which turd tastes least horrible” argument, but there is NO WAY that Fox is as biased-right as CNN and MSNBC are biased-left. Before we cut cable, I watched a lot of news. I pretty much had it on in my office all day, and I spent roughly equal amounts of time on Fox, CNN and MSNBC- on purpose.

For the most part, their prime-time pundits cancel each other out. Sean Hannity = Rachel Maddow etc. It is, however, very noteworthy to point out that MSNBC and Fox’s pundits always were pundits- essentially talk radio hosts who went to TV- but CNN’s pundits, Chris Cuomo and Don Lemon, were their star “journalists” turned pundits, and tried to carry the guise of still being journalists while doing those shows. 

As far as evening news anchors go, Fox’s big guys were Sheppard Smith, Chris Wallace and Bret Baier. Sheppard Smith and Chris Wallace are both left-leaning, and I never was able, try as I might, to find a leaning in Baier. Can you even imagine a right-leaning main anchor at CNN or MSNBC? CNN’s idea of unbiased is Wolf Blitzer, John King and Anderson Cooper. MSNBC’s idea of a “voice from the right” is Joe Scarborough.

Joe.
Scarborough. 
Seriously. He’s their token conservative. 

Joe Scarborough. 

That would be like Fox hiring Joe Manchin and then saying they had the left covered and didn’t ever need to have another Democrat on. 


I once found (and believe I posted here), but can’t find it again, a breakdown of Trump coverage story-counts of CNN and Fox from 2017-2018. I can’t remember the exact numbers, but they were something pretty close to the following:

CNN:
Positive - 2%
Neutral - 4%
Negative - 94%

Fox:
Positive - 65%
Neutral - 20%
Negative - 15%
(And before you call BS on that last figure, there was A LOT of negative-Trump coverage on Fox that can still be found on YT. Sheppard Smith and Chris Wallace, just to name two, hated Trump. Fox was very much in the never-Trumper camp early on.)

There’s unquestionably a tangible bias at Fox that opposes those of CNN and MSNBC (and ABC, CBS, NBC, NPR and PBS), but it’s not equal in intensity to the bias at CNN. Not even close.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Yeah, I don’t doubt that you believe that. The farther to the right or left you are, the more you see the enter left or right to the other side.
i pretty much agree with this. I have always liked Sheppard Smith. He’s definitely center and as unbiased as they come. 








Home of Media Bias Chart - Ad Fontes Media


Home of Media Bias Chart Version 9.0 January 2022 Edition - Combined Web, Podcast and TV




adfontesmedia.com


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Lisa in WA said:


> Yeah, I don’t doubt that you believe that. The farther to the right or left you are, the more you see the enter left or right to the other side.
> i pretty much agree with this. I have always liked Sheppard Smith. He’s definitely center and as unbiased as they come.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home of Media Bias Chart - Ad Fontes Media
> 
> 
> Home of Media Bias Chart Version 9.0 January 2022 Edition - Combined Web, Podcast and TV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> adfontesmedia.com


See, I think that’s where there will always be a bias disconnect. You honestly believe that Sheppard Smith is unbiased, middle of the road? What about Wolf Blitzer, his CNN contemporary?

I’ve seen that graphic you posted before. Putting aside where CNN, MSNBC or Fox might be placed, you really can still find it credible after where they placed the New York Times? The New York Times is near-centrist, not hard left-leaning?


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Lisa in WA said:


> Yeah, I don’t doubt that you believe that. The farther to the right or left you are, the more you see the enter left or right to the other side.
> i pretty much agree with this. I have always liked Sheppard Smith. He’s definitely center and as unbiased as they come.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home of Media Bias Chart - Ad Fontes Media
> 
> 
> Home of Media Bias Chart Version 9.0 January 2022 Edition - Combined Web, Podcast and TV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> adfontesmedia.com


Also, take a look at where they place Rachel Maddow opposed to Tucker Carlson. Carlson is a liar and hyper partisan-right, while Rachel Maddow is mostly fact based, and only skews left?

Really?


----------



## HDRider

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Also, take a look at where they place Rachel Maddow opposed to Tucker Carlson. Carlson is a liar and hyper partisan-right, while Rachel Maddow is mostly fact based, and only skews left?
> 
> Really?


That destroys their credibility. They have none


----------



## Lisa in WA

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> See, I think that’s where there will always be a bias disconnect. You honestly believe that Sheppard Smith is unbiased, middle of the road? What about Wolf Blitzer, his CNN contemporary?
> 
> I’ve seen that graphic you posted before. Putting aside where CNN, MSNBC or Fox might be placed, you really can still find it credible after where they placed the New York Times? The New York Times is near-centrist, not hard left-leaning?


Yes, I absolutely think Shep Smiths reporting is about as fair, accurate and middle of the road as you can get. 
Wolf Blitzer leans more left in my opinion. 

The NYT is in my opinion as far to the left as the WSJ is to the right. I subscribe to both.


----------



## Lisa in WA

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Also, take a look at where they place Rachel Maddow opposed to Tucker Carlson. Carlson is a liar and hyper partisan-right, while Rachel Maddow is mostly fact based, and only skews left?
> 
> Really?


I havent watched Maddow in several years but when I did, her opinions tend to be very much fat based. I disagree with many of her conclusions but I never knew her to outright lie.
Tucker Carlson does.


----------



## GTX63

Lisa in WA said:


> I havent watched Maddow in several years but when I did, her opinions tend to be very much fat based. I disagree with many of her conclusions but I never knew her to outright lie.
> Tucker Carlson does.


I think you can tell the ones here who nurse on mainstream teets, including fox.
I'll read your "fat based" as "fact based".
To this day Rachel is pushing the Russia collusion line.
She hyped the Trump tax return orgasmically.
Any talking head should know better by now.
She isn't the exception, just the response to your post.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Lisa in WA said:


> I havent watched Maddow in several years but when I did, her opinions tend to be very much fat based. I disagree with many of her conclusions but I never knew her to outright lie.
> Tucker Carlson does.


Tucker Carlson and Rachel Maddow do exactly the same thing: they pick and choose stories to cover that align with their bias, predominantly ones that point out the negatives about their opposition. Both of them are opinion sellers. Claiming that one lies and the other tells the truth only illustrates the point you made above. 

In fact, I think the same point can be made to illustrate what is going on with the Ad Fontes Media graph that you posted. If one sees bias tilted through their own lens, then the tilting of that graph shows is the bias of Ad Fontes Media. 

I think the best measure of bias intensity is to look at how often one deviates from the positions on the platform to which the majority of their positions ascribe. Whether I agree with the subject on most issues or not, I find them much more credible if there are issues with which they go against the current of their peers. 

Trump ends up being a good litmus test of this simply because he’s so polarizing. Are there many (any?) examples of Maddow saying positive things about Trump? I can post several examples of Carlson saying negative things about him.


----------



## Roy Gilbert

Alice In TX/MO said:


> If you ask the government, the motorcycle deaths were Covid, so I am sure the “hit by a bus” deaths were caused by Covid, too.
> 
> Man who died in motorcycle crash counted as COVID-19 death in Florida: Report


it is typical right wing ... glom on to one thing and declare it is a model for everything if it fits a preferred narrative


----------



## Roy Gilbert

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Tucker Carlson and Rachel Maddow do exactly the same thing: they pick and choose stories to cover that align with their bias, predominantly ones that point out the negatives about their opposition. Both of them are opinion sellers. Claiming that one lies and the other tells the truth only illustrates the point you made above.
> 
> In fact, I think the same point can be made to illustrate what is going on with the Ad Fontes Media graph that you posted. If one sees bias tilted through their own lens, then the tilting of that graph shows is the bias of Ad Fontes Media.
> 
> I think the best measure of bias intensity is to look at how often one deviates from the positions on the platform to which the majority of their positions ascribe. Whether I agree with the subject on most issues or not, I find them much more credible if there are issues with which they go against the current of their peers.
> 
> Trump ends up being a good litmus test of this simply because he’s so polarizing. Are there many (any?) examples of Maddow saying positive things about Trump? I can post several examples of Carlson saying negative things about him.


the generalities are just that ... you can say he does this and she does that ... but in the absence of a specific circumstance to discuss... folks are just flapping their lips


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Typical left wing. Sees an example and conflates it to something else.


----------



## Roy Gilbert

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Typical left wing. Sees an example and conflates it to something else.


still waiting for specific examples ... I'm "conflating" it with a lack of specificity ... let me add ... typical rightie to ignore the issue that was raised and launch into an unfounded attack


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Attack? ROFLMAO. 

Find someone else to harass. I am busy. 

Here’s my grandson, now a senior, wrestling for Dripping Springs High School Cancer Survivor Really solid young man.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

I like this picture from last year better.


----------



## Roy Gilbert

if you consider a response to your response, as harassment ... all I can say is that you've engaged in a "cute" change of subject ... should I send you videos of my grandson winning a 100 yard dash?


----------



## Lisa in WA

Roy Gilbert said:


> if you consider a response to your response, as harassment ... all I can say is that you've engaged in a "cute" change of subject ... should I send you videos of my grandson winning a 100 yard dash?


Her grandson was actually saved by the scientific and medical community that she is so engaged in reviling right now.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Roy Gilbert said:


> if you consider a response to your response, as harassment ... all I can say is that you've engaged in a "cute" change of subject ... should I send you videos of my grandson winning a 100 yard dash?


Sure. If you really want to impress someone, though, post up a quote of your grandson saying something relevant… and then post the video of him trying to explain it to you. 

I’m sure he would earn the admiration of all of us.


----------



## Roy Gilbert

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Sure. If you really want to impress someone, though, post up a quote of your grandson saying something relevant… and then post the video of him trying to explain it to you.
> 
> I’m sure he would earn the admiration of all of us.


still waiting for specificity ... on lame statements about she does this and he does that .. that is where I wanted the discussion to go


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Lisa in WA said:


> Her grandson was actually saved by the scientific and medical community that she is so engaged in reviling right now.


Saying “the scientific and medical community” are contemptible, and saying they’re doing something contemptible are two entirely different things.


----------



## Kelly Craig

That's true - I heard it on the Net, via Fauci, at a CNN get together. It's known you die far more comfortably with the for profit shot.

The even gooder news is, once they change the rules and their claims again, we can ignore the trillions in profits from the most honest vaccine manufactures that ever were, now that they've paid their billions in fines for their past dishonesty, and focus on booster number five, and the pills, and. . . .



Lisa in WA said:


> You can say that till you are blue in the face but it just whooshes right over their heads. The value of the vaccine like others is that it mitigates symptoms and mostly prevents severe illness and death.


----------



## Kelly Craig

That's akin to mocking someone who brings up the fact cops do not catch every criminal, or saying, because every one of the hundreds or thousands of cases that occured didn't because they weren't cited.



Lisa in WA said:


> oh good! An isolated incident from over a year ago!
> Certainly proves your point.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Roy Gilbert said:


> still waiting for specificity ... on lame statements about she does this and he does that .. that is where I wanted the discussion to go


Seriously? Too easy.










_typical lefty… can’t tell he heard a joke unless a twitter bluechecked late night “comedian” told it to him_

There. Does that soothe the butthurt? We both now sound like idiots who can’t find or are too lazy to use the shift and punctuation keys on our keyboard.


----------



## Kelly Craig

Per the public record (court case files, case reports, etc.), agents are not to be trusted to always do the right thing. The public record is replete with millions of incidents of public agents (without which the government could not do good or ill) doing prison time for theft, murder, arson, rape, extortion and so on. In fact, and entire court was declared a RICO enterprise.

Merely that someone dawns a priest's robe and sits at the head of a temple of justice does not mean they could change a spark plug, practice medicine, or do other things many take for granted. In fact, our law books contain millions of cases of decisions of mediocre attorneys who won a seat on a bench having their decisions overturned for abuse of power, bad judgement and so on.

THEN there is that pesky fact we have FIFTY-ONE constitutions because our agents cannot be trusted.




Hiro said:


> Do you trust the government provided statistics regarding the Wuflu?


----------



## Hiro

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Seriously? Too easy.
> 
> View attachment 103206
> 
> 
> _typical lefty… can’t tell he heard a joke unless a twitter bluechecked late night “comedian” told it to him_
> 
> There. Does that soothe the butthurt? We both now sound like idiots who can’t find or are too lazy to use the shift and punctuation keys on our keyboard.


HF is never very good with punctuation or capitalization regardless of what screen name is currently in use.


----------



## Roy Gilbert

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Seriously? Too easy.
> 
> View attachment 103206
> 
> 
> _typical lefty… can’t tell he heard a joke unless a twitter bluechecked late night “comedian” told it to him_
> 
> There. Does that soothe the butthurt? We both now sound like idiots who can’t find or are too lazy to use the shift and punctuation keys on our keyboard.


oh ... I forgot ... we wuz just jokin ... where is the substance of the charge about "he says" this and "she says" that without any specificity about what they actual said ... context anyone???


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Wait! I wanted your grandson’s pictures!

Our discussion here means very little. We won’t solve anything, won’t change anyone’s mind, and if a person chooses to deliberately misunderstand a post, the conversation is ludicrous.


----------



## Roy Gilbert

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Wait! I wanted your grandson’s pictures!
> 
> Our discussion here means very little. We won’t solve anything, won’t change anyone’s mind, and if a person chooses to deliberately misunderstand a post, the conversation is ludicrous.


grandson is the one in the blue shorts ... are you now free for substantive discussions ...


----------



## thesedays

Nevada said:


> Is your point that he didn't deserve to live?


Of course not! My point is that he had multiple high-risk factors.

Dad said he went from baseline (not healthy) to dead in less than 3 days.


----------



## thesedays

painterswife said:


> Watching any US cable news channel is just being spoonfed a biased point of view. Turn them all off and start searching out the US stories on international channels. It may not always be biased-free but it is way better than what is on the air here.


BBC America is probably the best source for bias-free American news. Interestingly, Al Jazeera (which means "The Bridge") is pretty neutral on American news as well, although they're very anti-Israel. There's also a website called "The 1440" that while it's bias-free, it's also very bland so be warned.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

I love seeing a young runner who knows to run THROUGH the finish line and how to use his body to get that fraction of a second that means a win.

NICE video.

Cole won his second match with a pin in 26 seconds.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

painterswife said:


> Were you under the impression that the vaccine was 100 percent effective? I never read that anywhere. Maybe you are getting your news from the wrong sources.


What is the point?

Natural immunity is effective though.

Another "benifit" of the jab is heart problems in young people, 50K and counting

Sure they recovered, but what is the effect on their longevity, quality of life.
It appears that once again, those who are presently in charge are putting off payment to the young.
(debt/health/education)

Most people who need to be concerned about covid are, to be blunt, FAT.

Why, if YOU DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOURSELF, why should I?


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

Lisa in WA said:


> I‘m curious.
> Were your wild-eyed conspiracy theories too much for even Country Conservatives or did you just need a broader audience for your galloping nuttery?


You need to tone it down about 50% old girl

You do not know so much as you imagine.

Let us keep it civil


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

a7736100 said:


> Epoch Times is a source of Trump lies. I just don't know if he repeats Epoch or if it's the other way around.



So, by your assertion you do not know, but you assert that these are lies, hummmmm!
Please explain further.


----------



## painterswife

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> What is the point?
> 
> Natural immunity is effective though.
> 
> Another "benifit" of the jab is heart problems in young people, 50K and counting
> 
> Sure they recovered, but what is the effect on their longevity, quality of life.
> It appears that once again, those who are presently in charge are putting off payment to the young.
> (debt/health/education)
> 
> Most people who need to be concerned about covid are, to be blunt, FAT.
> 
> Why, if YOU DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOURSELF, why should I?


Heart problems is also a problem when you get covid often much worse and longer lasting.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

painterswife said:


> Heart problems is also a problem when you get covid often much worse and longer lasting.


I would like to see that data.

Is this with or without co-mormidities?.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

painterswife said:


> Heart problems is also a problem when you get covid often much worse and longer lasting.


Being as you only deal in “facts and science” (not “opinions and political propaganda” like us lowly deplorables), I’m dying to see the conclusive data comparing the long-term cardiological issues of the Covid shot and actual Covid infections that certainly _must_ exist. 

Otherwise, you wouldn’t have made a declarative statement as such, right?


----------



## HDRider

jr23 said:


> NZ and AU are dictatorships right now cops beat people for being too far from home or not masked outdoors with the blessing of AU rulers


You are witnessing the building of a better world


----------



## Alice In TX/MO




----------



## Pony

[/QUOTE]


----------



## Vjk

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> See, I think that’s where there will always be a bias disconnect. You honestly believe that Sheppard Smith is unbiased, middle of the road? What about Wolf Blitzer, his CNN contemporary?
> 
> I’ve seen that graphic you posted before. Putting aside where CNN, MSNBC or Fox might be placed, you really can still find it credible after where they placed the New York Times? The New York Times is near-centrist, not hard left-leaning?


This would only make sense if they were basing the positioning on self-reporting.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

Vjk said:


> This would only make sense if they were basing the positioning on self-reporting.



As a life long NYT reader, it is NOT CENTERIST any more. Not even close. (painful to say out loud)


----------



## Pony

*"It is imperative in science to doubt; it is absolutely necessary, for progress of science, to have uncertainty as a fundamental part of your inner nature." -- Richard Feynman*


----------



## Pony

Richard Feynman was a brilliant man, and he fully understood how the process works. 

Feynman said that all scientific knowledge is uncertain and uncertainty is a very important part of it. If you think you have something "right", if you already made up your mind, you may not consider other options and will be unable to truly solve the problem.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Pony said:


> Richard Feynman was a brilliant man, and he fully understood how the process works.
> 
> Feynman said that all scientific knowledge is uncertain and uncertainty is a very important part of it. If you think you have something "right", if you already made up your mind, you may not consider other options and will be unable to truly solve the problem.


But it makes so many feel so good to try to leverage the science their TV tells them over others.

Who are we to take that away from them?


----------



## Pony

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> But it makes so many feel so good to try to leverage the science their TV tells them over others.
> 
> Who are we to take that away from them?


Speaking of science and TV, I just thought of Bill Nye the Science Guy.

DH was working at UL when Nye was there to do some taping. Dude was a total douche nozzle. Treated everyone like dirt, including the kids who were there. 

Mr Science. Lies and acts like a dillweed.


----------



## poppy

Back in old times they used to bleed you if you had a cold. People considered that good science from the smartest people they had. The 'vaccine or nothing' folks are no different than those people.


----------



## Vjk

Pony said:


> Richard Feynman was a brilliant man, and he fully understood how the process works.
> 
> Feynman said that all scientific knowledge is uncertain and uncertainty is a very important part of it. If you think you have something "right", if you already made up your mind, you may not consider other options and will be unable to truly solve the problem.


My tagline on work emails is:
“For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled.”


----------



## Vjk

Pony said:


> Richard Feynman was a brilliant man, and he fully understood how the process works.
> 
> Feynman said that all scientific knowledge is uncertain and uncertainty is a very important part of it. If you think you have something "right", if you already made up your mind, you may not consider other options and will be unable to truly solve the problem.


And really .... who wouldn't love a professor who held his office hours at strip club?


----------



## GTX63

Pony said:


> Speaking of science and TV, I just thought of Bill Nye the Science Guy.
> 
> DH was working at UL when Nye was there to do some taping. Dude was a total douche nozzle. Treated everyone like dirt, including the kids who were there.
> 
> Mr Science. Lies and acts like a dillweed.


Bill Nye has a BS in mechanical engineering. That, his tv show and the media qualifies him as an expert in climate change.


----------



## Pony

Vjk said:


> And really .... who wouldn't love a professor who held his office hours at strip club?


I read that he was all about chasing skirts and playing bongos. 

There's a flowchart of that somewhere.


----------



## mreynolds

GTX63 said:


> Bill Nye has a BS in mechanical engineering. That, his tv show and the media qualifies him as an expert in climate change.


Heavy on the BS then?


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

GTX63 said:


> Bill Nye has a BS in mechanical engineering. That, his tv show and the media qualifies him as an expert in climate change.


Hardly (sometimes I think he is the model for Fauchi)


----------



## Nevada

Pony said:


> Feynman said that all scientific knowledge is uncertain and uncertainty is a very important part of it. If you think you have something "right", if you already made up your mind, you may not consider other options and will be unable to truly solve the problem.


It's important to approach an engineering problem with an open mind, but starting out believing that the science is wrong is not good strategy. Sometimes there are variables that we either don't know are present, or that we don't fully understand.

For example, when astronauts go to the international space station they experience weightlessness, despite the fact that the space station's orbit is close enough to the earth to have plenty of gravity to hold the astronauts on the floor. If you started out to explain space station weightlessness by assuming that the science behind gravity was wrong, you would not only waste a lot of time & effort but would also produce the wrong conclusion. Anyone, be it a scientist or lay person, who would attempt to explain space station weightlessness by announcing that the law of gravity was wrong would be making a fool of himself.


----------



## HDRider

Nevada said:


> It's important to approach an engineering problem with an open mind, but starting out believing that the science is wrong is not good strategy. Sometimes there are variables that we either don't know are present, or that we don't fully understand.
> 
> For example, when astronauts go to the international space station they experience weightlessness, despite the fact that the space station's orbit is close enough to the earth to have plenty of gravity to hold the astronauts on the floor. If you started out to explain space station weightlessness by assuming that the science behind gravity was wrong, you would not only waste a lot of time & effort but would also produce the wrong conclusion. Anyone, be it a scientist or lay person, who would attempt to explain space station weightlessness by announcing that the law of gravity was wrong would be making a fool of himself.


"Scientists are the ones who create the theories, engineers are the ones who implement them. They complement each other and often work together, the scientists telling the engineers what to make and the engineers telling the scientists the constraints that said thing to be made doesn't meet. They are indeed different, but they work very close together." —The Walker 








Engineer vs Scientist - What's the Difference?


Although engineering and science are related, they aren't the same thing. Here is a look a the differences from a practical and philosophical perspective.




www.thoughtco.com


----------



## Pony

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> Hardly (sometimes I think he is the model for Fauchi)


I can totally see that. A self-satisfied, bloviating, fatuous jerk.


----------



## Nevada

HDRider said:


> "Scientists are the ones who create the theories, engineers are the ones who implement them. They complement each other and often work together, the scientists telling the engineers what to make and the engineers telling the scientists the constraints that said thing to be made doesn't meet. They are indeed different, but they work very close together." —The Walker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Engineer vs Scientist - What's the Difference?
> 
> 
> Although engineering and science are related, they aren't the same thing. Here is a look a the differences from a practical and philosophical perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thoughtco.com


In practice, the line between scientist and engineer is not so clear cut. Scientists are often asked to solve practical problems, and engineers can find themselves doing fundamental research. I worked in a refinery where the process engineer on the water treater unit had a degree in chemistry, and I worked at a research facility where engineers participated in catalyst development activities. We used to joke that the oil company I worked for put new employees in positions where they were least likely to succeed.

Engineers are people who specialize in remote areas of science, and sit in the same classrooms as other science majors for much of their 4-year degree studies. There is a great deal of overlap in knowledge between scientists and engineers.


----------



## ryanthomas

Pony said:


> Richard Feynman was a brilliant man, and he fully understood how the process works.
> 
> Feynman said that all scientific knowledge is uncertain and uncertainty is a very important part of it. If you think you have something "right", if you already made up your mind, you may not consider other options and will be unable to truly solve the problem.


Yes, Feynman was brilliant and not afraid to question everything. According to your OP, however, you have already made up your mind that the vaccine has absolutely no bearing on catching or spreading covid. That's not questioning, it's denial. Denialism is just as antithetical to science as the other side of the coin.

An outbreak of only 10-20 people on a cruise ship actually indicates that the vaccines, regardless of our personal thoughts and feelings about whether they're a good idea, probably DO have some bearing on transmission. Before vaccines, there were outbreaks of hundreds on cruise ships of similar size. There are other factors at play so this much smaller outbreak doesn't prove anything, but it's a decent hint leaning in the direction of vaccines reducing transmission substantially.

There was another outbreak of 48 on a ship a few days ago, but that ship had almost twice as many people on it and had a slightly less vaccinated populace, so it's in the same ballpark as the first one cited.


----------



## Hiro

ryanthomas said:


> Yes, Feynman was brilliant and not afraid to question everything. According to your OP, however, you have already made up your mind that the vaccine has absolutely no bearing on catching or spreading covid. That's not questioning, it's denial. Denialism is just as antithetical to science as the other side of the coin.
> 
> An outbreak of only 10-20 people on a cruise ship actually indicates that the vaccines, regardless of our personal thoughts and feelings about whether they're a good idea, probably DO have some bearing on transmission. Before vaccines, there were outbreaks of hundreds on cruise ships of similar size. There are other factors at play so this much smaller outbreak doesn't prove anything, but it's a decent hint leaning in the direction of vaccines reducing transmission substantially.
> 
> There was another outbreak of 48 on a ship a few days ago, but that ship had almost twice as many people on it and had a slightly less vaccinated populace, so it's in the same ballpark as the first one cited.


I am not sure Pony engaged in denialism writ large. It is perfectly rational and scientific to deny the early claims of the Wuflu vaccines effectivity. Anyone with any kind of memory recalls those early claims of 95% effectivity. And, it wasn't 95% effectivity of symptomatic infection and transmission. It was absurd at the time and I pointed it out the time, as did many others. 

The best that I can sum it up, it seems as though there are more Wuflu cases now in a lot of places that are highly vaccinated. No one seems to want to examine why there are an awful lot of other places in this wide world with low vaccination rates without a Wuflu problem. Were real science allowed to be published (I recognize real science is being done some places) and distributed, the fallacy of the mRNA vaccine experiments on humanity would be exposed.

I need an Airbnb reservation for Nuremburg and a large hard drive for the videos, if there were justice in this world right now.


----------



## Danaus29

You cannot compare the current covid outbreaks to the early ones. Before the early ones there was not the extent of cleaning and sanitizing as there is now. There was not the social distancing or improvement in air circulation systems as there is now. The people on the Diamond Princess were kept on the ship until the virus ran it's course, they were quarantined on the ship for more than 2 weeks. When the quarantine began there were only 10 passengers with confirmed covid cases. Who knows how far covid would have spread on these latest cruise ships if all the passengers and crew were confined on board an additional 2 to 3 weeks.









Chronology of COVID-19 Cases on the Diamond Princess Cruise Ship and Ethical Considerations: A Report From Japan


The Diamond Princess cruise ship has been anchored at the Yokohama port in Japan since February 3, 2020. A total of 691 cases of the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) infection had been confirmed as of February 23. The government initially assumed that ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## Pony

ryanthomas said:


> Yes, Feynman was brilliant and not afraid to question everything. According to your OP, however, you have already made up your mind that the vaccine has absolutely no bearing on catching or spreading covid. That's not questioning, it's denial. Denialism is just as antithetical to science as the other side of the coin.


You have no idea of my thought processes, and the level of hubris required for you to jump to such conclusions is staggering. It also demonstrates that you are attempting to hide your denial. 

The little out of context factoids you post further demonstrate that you question nothing, but look for much to support what you've been told to believe. Hence, you will go on my ignore list.

Good day.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

ryanthomas said:


> Yes, Feynman was brilliant and not afraid to question everything. According to your OP, however, you have already made up your mind that the vaccine has absolutely no bearing on catching or spreading covid. That's not questioning, it's denial. Denialism is just as antithetical to science as the other side of the coin.
> 
> An outbreak of only 10-20 people on a cruise ship actually indicates that the vaccines, regardless of our personal thoughts and feelings about whether they're a good idea, probably DO have some bearing on transmission. Before vaccines, there were outbreaks of hundreds on cruise ships of similar size. There are other factors at play so this much smaller outbreak doesn't prove anything, but it's a decent hint leaning in the direction of vaccines reducing transmission substantially.
> 
> There was another outbreak of 48 on a ship a few days ago, but that ship had almost twice as many people on it and had a slightly less vaccinated populace, so it's in the same ballpark as the first one cited.


The vaccine is not a vaccine actually, it is a therapy, and given past performance, it does not work.

If it did, why the multiple shots?

Why do people who had the shot, still get the covid?

If you had the covid you are protected. If you had the shot, you have had a treatment that MAY lessen the effects of the covid.

That is facts. That is the science. (politics and science are not the same in a sane world)


----------



## Nevada

I can't help but wonder why it's so important to some members to discourage covid vaccination.


----------



## Mish

Nevada said:


> I can't help but wonder why it's so important to some members to discourage covid vaccination.


Probably the same reason some members feel it's important to encourage the Covid shot (it's not a vaccine).


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

Nevada said:


> I can't help but wonder why it's so important to some members to discourage covid vaccination.



Truth is discouraging it? Well, it is not the truthers that make it look bad.

The shot is not as safe as advertised. If you have natural immunity, why do you need the shot?

These are simple, basic concepts.

If defeating covd is so important than why is the government not pushing Vitamin D, Zinc, Outdoors activity, eating healthy, other treatments, etc?

Around 50,000 people here is the USA have had heart problems due to covid shots, young healthy people.
Why have hundreds, yes hundreds of professional athletes collapsed, many dying, after the shot? Why has there been a news blackout about this?

Why are there so many issues, yet it is difficult to talk about them.

SINCE WHEN DO YOU LISTEN TO THE USED CAR DEALER PUSHING SOMETHING ON YOU?


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Stating my thoughts about the Covid situation isn’t the same as discouraging anyone’s decision and action in his or her personal life.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Stating my thoughts about the Covid situation isn’t the same as discouraging anyone’s decision and action in his or her personal life.


Exactly!


----------



## Nevada

Mish said:


> Probably the same reason some members feel it's important to encourage the Covid shot (it's not a vaccine).


No, there's more to it than that. The passion goes beyond suggesting that the covid vaccine might or might not be a good idea.


----------



## Mish

Nevada said:


> No, there's more to it than that. The passion goes beyond suggesting that the covid vaccine might or might not be a good idea.


As a professional fence-sitter, there is equal passion on both sides of your issue. You probably don't notice the zeal on your side because it's your side.


----------



## HDRider

Nevada said:


> No, there's more to it than that. The passion goes beyond suggesting that the covid vaccine might or might not be a good idea.


You really have no ability to see both sides of things. None


----------



## Nevada

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Stating my thoughts about the Covid situation isn’t the same as discouraging anyone’s decision and action in his or her personal life.


Again, no. I"m seeing name calling, belittling, and putting members on ignore. Some members are also posting information that they know is false. As I said, there's more to it than jusr "sharing your thoughts." You really, REALLY don' twant people to accept the covid vaccine. I just what to know why.


----------



## Nevada

HDRider said:


> You really have no ability to see both sides of things. None


Is it really necessary to belittle me to make your point? Evidently it is. I just want to know why.


----------



## Mish

Nevada said:


> Again, no. I"m seeing name calling, belittling, and putting members on ignore. Some members are also posting information that they know is false. As I said, there's more to it than jusr "sharing your thoughts." You really, REALLY don' twant people to accept the covid vaccine. I just what to know why.


It's from both sides. Really. You need to attempt to look around and be objective when reading. 

Maybe also examining why someone would do those things while being pro-Covid shot would help you understand why someone might feel the same on the opposite side.

A little objectivity, introspection, and empathy goes a long way. Not just picking on you, we all could do it a little more.


----------



## Nevada

Mish said:


> It's from both sides. Really. You need to attempt to look around and be objective when reading.
> 
> Maybe also examining why someone would do those things while being pro-Covid shot would help you understand why someone might feel the same on the opposite side.
> 
> A little objectivity, introspection, and empathy goes a long way. Not just picking on you, we all could do it a little more.


Well, sure. You have to inject whataboutism into the conversation.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

I really try to present my thoughts. I usually don’t name call. I only have one person on ignore.

Nevada, making sweeping generalizations doesn’t help. It’s very often inaccurate and some folks feel attacked.

Your speculation this morning actually enabled this discussion. Thank you.

Only one person reacted with hostility.


----------



## HDRider

Nevada said:


> Is it really necessary to belittle me to make your point? Evidently it is. I just want to know why.


That was not belittlement. It was a statement of obvious fact, a fact that I have never seen you go outside of with any of your posts. 

Your posts always have some jab at those that you are on the other side of on any issue.


----------



## Mish

Nevada said:


> Well, sure. You have to inject whataboutism into the conversation.


Not at all. 

There are a lot of reasons people who think the shot is a good idea think that. There are a lot of reasons people who think the shot is a bad idea think that. You said you wanted to understand why someone who thinks differently than you thinks and acts differently than you. Just giving a suggestion on how to figure that out. It has something to do with putting yourself in another person's shoes.


----------



## painterswife

It is a vaccine. No vaccine is 100 percent effective. No vaccine prevents you from actually getting the virus. It only gives you the tools to fight it. How quickly your own immune system can fight it depends on your own immune system. That means some don't get symptoms and some do.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Nevada, using the term “you” in your response to me was your attempt at mind reading. You guessed incorrectly.

“You” is a troublesome pronoun, especially in a forum. As a collective pronoun, it includes everyone here, which causes confusion because it appears (as mentioned above) to be a sweeping generalization. As a singular pronoun, “you” appears the target the poster immediately above your post or the quoted post.


----------



## Danaus29

Nevada said:


> I can't help but wonder why it's so important to some members to discourage covid vaccination.


I don't try to discourage people from getting the covid therapy. But I want the facts to be presented that the covid therapy is not without risk and is not as effective or long lasting as we are being led to believe. The current supression of follow-up information regarding the original trial participants and the lack of proper scientific study of those first volunteers should concern us all. Especially since the public was lied to about the continuing follow up reports and transparency if the data. The continuing data was intentionally skewed and proceedures were intentionally not followed so the results would show what the researchers wanted.


----------



## Nevada

Wow, I didn't expect an avalanche of replies. No question about it, I struck a nerve.


----------



## Mish

Nevada said:


> Wow, I didn't expect an avalanche of replies. No question about it, I struck a nerve.


You asked a question, people are trying to answer the question.

Unless it wasn't a question and was simply an attempt to make some kind of point.


----------



## Nevada

Mish said:


> You asked a question, people are trying to answer the question.
> 
> Unless it wasn't a question and was simply an attempt to make some kind of point.


Nobody has answered so I'll ask again. Why is discouraging the vaccine so important to you?


----------



## Danaus29

Nevada said:


> Wow, I didn't expect an avalanche of replies. No question about it, I struck a nerve.


No matter where one sits in regard to the shot or mandates, it is a hot topic which strikes a nerve in many people. You and my stepdad are on the same side of the fence and he will talk your ear off about how it's the greatest thing once you get him started.


----------



## Mish

Nevada said:


> Nobody has answered so I'll ask again. Why is discouraging the vaccine so important to you?


Your question was actually answered by a few people. It seems that you just don't want to acknowledge their answers.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Asking a question that encourages a lively conversation is simply that. An interpretation that you “struck a nerve” has implications that are, in my opinion, inaccurate.

Some of the folks here actually enjoy a lively conversation.


----------



## Danaus29

Nevada said:


> Nobody has answered so I'll ask again. Why is discouraging the vaccine so important to you?


I did answer, maybe not the way you wanted. I don't discourage anyone from getting it, as long as they are allowed the information they need to make a truly informed decision. On the other side, I don't encourage anyone to get it either with one exception. I would encourage a woman who wanted to get pregnant to get the shot because of the stress a pregnancy puts on a woman's body and the extra problems pregnancy causes for covid treatment. I'm still on the fence about already pregnant women getting the shot.


----------



## Nevada

News Flash:

_*A Texas man in his 50s whose death was the first confirmed Omicron-related in the US wasn't vaccinated and had previously been infected with the coronavirus*_

So much for natural immunity...









First confirmed US death related to Omicron variant was unvaccinated and had been infected before


Health experts are urging people to get vaccinated as the Delta and Omicron coronavirus variants spread across the globe. Follow here for the latest news updates.




www.cnn.com


----------



## Hiro

Nevada said:


> News Flash:
> 
> _*A Texas man in his 50s whose death was the first confirmed Omicron-related in the US wasn't vaccinated and had previously been infected with the coronavirus*_
> 
> So much for natural immunity...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First confirmed US death related to Omicron variant was unvaccinated and had been infected before
> 
> 
> Health experts are urging people to get vaccinated as the Delta and Omicron coronavirus variants spread across the globe. Follow here for the latest news updates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Your dedication to science and ability to apply it never ceases to amaze.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

I am going to try again.

Dear Nevada,
It is not my intention to discourage anyone when I express my thoughts on the Covid situation.

My intention is to present MY thoughts, and what I have learned, and MY conclusions.

Any interpretation of my statements and posts is the responsibility of the reader.


----------



## Mish

Nevada said:


> News Flash:
> 
> _*A Texas man in his 50s whose death was the first confirmed Omicron-related in the US wasn't vaccinated and had previously been infected with the coronavirus*_
> 
> So much for natural immunity...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First confirmed US death related to Omicron variant was unvaccinated and had been infected before
> 
> 
> Health experts are urging people to get vaccinated as the Delta and Omicron coronavirus variants spread across the globe. Follow here for the latest news updates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Saw that this morning.

Also, left out of your article, but mentioned in this one:



> Hidalgo did not name the victim, who had *undisclosed underlying health conditions*, and who was treated with Regeneron antibody therapy in an unsuccessful attempt to save his life.


I wonder if being unvaccinated was the problem, or the *undisclosed underlying health conditions.*


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

One death means very little, on a global scale.


----------



## Danaus29

Thank you for bringing that up. But the person also had underlying health conditions which made him more vulnerable. Much like others who were vaxxed and still got delta and died from covid, sometimes all it takes is just a bit more strain on the system.


----------



## mreynolds

Mish said:


> Saw that this morning.
> 
> Also, left out of your article, but mentioned in this one:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if being unvaccinated was the problem, or the *undisclosed underlying health conditions.*


If also doesn't say if the man was an illegal immigrant. They don't vaccinate those people. 

A few things that sound suspicious to me. They will release no info on the person. They don't have an issue doing that here. That way people who have come into contact with that person can go and get checked.


----------



## Nevada

Danaus29 said:


> I did answer, maybe not the way you wanted. I don't discourage anyone from getting it, as long as they are allowed the information they need to make a truly informed decision. On the other side, I don't encourage anyone to get it either with one exception. I would encourage a woman who wanted to get pregnant to get the shot because of the stress a pregnancy puts on a woman's body and the extra problems pregnancy causes for covid treatment. I'm still on the fence about already pregnant women getting the shot.


As I keep saying, there's more to it than that. The posts that discourage getting vaccinated challenge accepted science for points that have been specifically disproven. Yet that false information is posted time and time again, even after authoritative references prove those statements to be wrong. U;m talking about claims like:


Covid vaccines don't prevent infection.
Natural immunity is better than vaccine immunity.
The pandemic was caused by vaccines.
The danger of rare vaccine side effects is greater than the danger of covid.
Vaccines cause variants.
Many may die from vaccines because they may cause unanticipated disease, including cancer.
Vaccines can give you covid.

And then there are the really off the wall myths:


mRNA vaccines alter your DNA.
Covid vaccines are not vaccines.
Covid vaccines contain microchips.
Covid vaccines can make you magnetic.

NONE OF THOSE ARE TRUE, Yet some, particularly the myth that vaccines don't prevent covid, still persist.

Take a look at how many anti vaccine threads are started compared to those promoting vaccines. Yes, discouraging vaccines is very important to some.


----------



## Nevada

Danaus29 said:


> Thank you for bringing that up. But the person also had underlying health conditions which made him more vulnerable.


Can you say definitely that he still would have died if he was vaccinated? We shouldn't concern ourselves with people with underlying conditions?

Keep in mind that many HT members, including myself, have an underlying condition simply by being over 70.


----------



## ryanthomas

Pony said:


> You have no idea of my thought processes, and the level of hubris required for you to jump to such conclusions is staggering. It also demonstrates that you are attempting to hide your denial.
> 
> The little out of context factoids you post further demonstrate that you question nothing, but look for much to support what you've been told to believe. Hence, you will go on my ignore list.
> 
> Good day.


What an odd response. This person clearly stated her belief in her OP, and I restated it in the exact same words, yet I'm accused of jumping to conclusions about her thought processes.

I clearly stated this cruise ship outbreak doesn't prove anything, yet I am "only looking to support what I've been told to believe." But the OP indicates that it does prove something and that somehow makes her a free thinker. How fitting that she chooses to ignore me for questioning her approach, just as she apparently ignores everything that doesn't support her already-made-up mind.

Seems the old adage about psychologists being loonier than their patients may have some merit.


----------



## Danaus29

One of your facts has been proven to be untrue. The "vaccines" do not prevent infection. They prevent serious illness and death in many cases. And they are now called "vaccines" only because the definition of the word was changed.

As for the omicron patient, without further knowledge none of us can say he would have survived if he had been vaccinated. None of can say that a minor cold or a common bacterial infection would have been the tipping point. Who knows, the effects of the vaccine could have been too much for him. His first covid infection could have caused too much damage for his body to recover. We just don't know.


----------



## Nevada

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I am going to try again.
> 
> Dear Nevada,
> It is not my intention to discourage anyone when I express my thoughts on the Covid situation.
> 
> My intention is to present MY thoughts, and what I have learned, and MY conclusions.
> 
> Any interpretation of my statements and posts is the responsibility of the reader.


So when you share your thoughts with us, why don't you share your thoughts about all the lives saved by covid vaccines?


----------



## painterswife

Danaus29 said:


> One of your facts has been proven to be untrue. The "vaccines" do not prevent infection. They prevent serious illness and death in many cases. And they are now called "vaccines" only because the definition of the word was changed.
> 
> As for the omicron patient, without further knowledge none of us can say he would have survived if he had been vaccinated. None of can say that a minor cold or a common bacterial infection would have been the tipping point. Who knows, the effects of the vaccine could have been too much for him. His first covid infection could have caused too much damage for his body to recover. We just don't know.


The definition of the word vaccine has only changed to reflect the technology to make vaccines. It did not change what a vaccine does.


----------



## Danaus29

Nevada said:


> As I keep saying, there's more to it than that. The posts that discourage getting vaccinated challenge accepted science for points that have been specifically disproven. Yet that false information is posted time and time again, even after authoritative references prove those statements to be wrong. U;m talking about claims like:
> 
> 
> Covid vaccines don't prevent infection.
> Natural immunity is better than vaccine immunity.
> The pandemic was caused by vaccines.
> The danger of rare vaccine side effects is greater than the danger of covid.
> Vaccines cause variants.
> Many may die from vaccines because they may cause unanticipated disease, including cancer.
> Vaccines can give you covid.
> 
> And then there are the really off the wall myths:
> 
> 
> mRNA vaccines alter your DNA.
> Covid vaccines are not vaccines.
> Covid vaccines contain microchips.
> Covid vaccines can make you magnetic.
> 
> NONE OF THOSE ARE TRUE, Yet some, particularly the myth that vaccines don't prevent covid, still persist.
> 
> Take a look at how many anti vaccine threads are started compared to those promoting vaccines. Yes, discouraging vaccines is very important to some.


I have seen posts started containing information regarding vaccine efficacy or bringing up new information about the side effects. I have seen posts brought up linking to articles about false claims relating to the vaccines and the court case that had a chance if it hadn't made unbelievable claims. I have even seen posts where some say they believe mRNA therapy alters DNA. But I haven't seen any posts where the no-covid crowd has called people stupid or ignorant for getting the shot. I still have not read one post where a no-covid shot person has wished death or lingering illness and long suffering on any pro-covid person. I may have missed it because I don't read every post in every thread, but I don't recall seeing it. 

I have seen where people on both sides have resorted to name calling and mud slinging of people on the opposing side. I have seen where people on both sides view opposing opinions as personal attacks. I am sick of the nastiness that pervades some of these threads and often I skip over such posts or stop reading those threads altogether.


----------



## Danaus29

painterswife said:


> The definition of the word vaccine has only changed to reflect the technology to make vaccines. It did not change what a vaccine does.


A technology that appears to be not as effective as the old way of making vaccines. I realize it was done with a rush to try to stop the spread of a disease that has the potential to make a person very sick or die from it's effects. As for the actual long-term efficacy, that is currently being tested.


----------



## painterswife

Danaus29 said:


> A technology that appears to be not as effective as the old way of making vaccines. I realize it was done with a rush to try to stop the spread of a disease that has the potential to make a person very sick or die from it's effects. As for the actual long-term efficacy, that is currently being tested.


Shooting down the technology does not change that you are incorrect on the definition of a vaccine. That is misinformation that should not be spread.


----------



## Nevada

Danaus29 said:


> The "vaccines" do not prevent infection. They prevent serious illness and death in many cases


That's not true. Covid vaccines not only prevent infection, they are very good at preventing infection, Researchers have even provided precise statistics about disease prevention, which have been duplicated in a number of studies. This, from the CDC's website.

*COVID 19-vaccines are effective and can reduce the risk of getting and spreading the virus that causes COVID-19. *

Why do you persist in making false statements that you know aren't true? It must be important to you, so why not say?









Benefits of Getting a COVID-19 Vaccine


Learn about the benefits of COVID-19 vaccination based on what experts currently know. Vaccination will be an important tool to help stop the pandemic.




www.cdc.gov




.


----------



## Nevada

painterswife said:


> Shooting down the technology does not change that you are incorrect on the definition of a vaccine. That is misinformation that should not be spread.


Yes. Vaccines are classified by what they do, not how they do it. Since mRNA vaccines trigger the body to make antibodies scientists classify them as vaccines.

Antivaxxers don't have to like it, but they have to accept it.


----------



## painterswife

It seems that some never really understood what a vaccine is and does and immunity.

Even Polio had different types of viruses and the immunity longevity depended on the type of polio you had. Past infections did not make you immune if you were exposed to a different polio virus.


----------



## Danaus29

Nevada said:


> That's not true. Covid vaccines not only prevent infection, they are very good at preventing infection, Researchers have even provided precise statistics about disease prevention, which have been duplicated in a number of studies. This, from the CDC's website.
> 
> *COVID 19-vaccines are effective and can reduce the risk of getting and spreading the virus that causes COVID-19. *
> 
> Why do you persist in making false statements that you know aren't true? It must be important to you, so why not say?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Benefits of Getting a COVID-19 Vaccine
> 
> 
> Learn about the benefits of COVID-19 vaccination based on what experts currently know. Vaccination will be an important tool to help stop the pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


The only breakthrough cases that are being tracked are those that result in hospitalization or death. By stopping testing of vaccinated people after exposure to covid, the CDC dropped the ball in proving the vaccines prevent infection. That is a fact. The CDC stopped counting all breakthrough cases early last year. It's on their website, I have posted it several times. Yes, it is very important to me. By giving vaccinated people the false belief that they can't get and spread covid, the CDC allowed the vaccinated to spread covid to those who could not (note, I did not say will not) get vaccinated.

eta, your quote says "can reduce". We've been down this road before.


----------



## Danaus29

painterswife said:


> Shooting down the technology does not change that you are incorrect on the definition of a vaccine. That is misinformation that should not be spread.


Are you denying the definition was changed when the mRNA therapy came out?


----------



## painterswife

Danaus29 said:


> Are you denying the definition was changed when the mRNA therapy came out?


As I have posted several times before.

I have never denied that the definition was changed. The definition was changed to include new processes for making vaccines. What a vaccine does has not changed.


----------



## Hiro




----------



## GTX63

Danaus29 said:


> Are you denying the definition was changed when the mRNA therapy came out?


Yes, Danaus, the definition was changed and not for your benefit.
Note when someone tells you that what you are saying is misinformation and should not be spread.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

Nevada said:


> No, there's more to it than that. The passion goes beyond suggesting that the covid vaccine might or might not be a good idea.


How do you know this?

I see you have an OPINION (feeling?), but nothing to support it.

My anti-THERAPEUTIC is based on obversation and science, as published.

Calling something other than what it is does not change it.
The covid shot is not a vaccine, not want the theropy does not make you an anti-vaxxer.

Simple statement from 1984: Control the language and you control the people. 
My question back to you: WHY ARE SO MANY PEOPLE SO PASSIONATE ABOUT TOEING THE LINE WITH THE GOVERNMENT?


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

Nevada said:


> Is it really necessary to belittle me to make your point? Evidently it is. I just want to know why.


That is not belittling, that is an opinion based on your statements.

That is offends you is irrelevant, may be a ploy to control the conversation, I do not know.

Do not hide behind things.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

Nevada said:


> News Flash:
> 
> _*A Texas man in his 50s whose death was the first confirmed Omicron-related in the US wasn't vaccinated and had previously been infected with the coronavirus*_
> 
> So much for natural immunity...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First confirmed US death related to Omicron variant was unvaccinated and had been infected before
> 
> 
> Health experts are urging people to get vaccinated as the Delta and Omicron coronavirus variants spread across the globe. Follow here for the latest news updates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


I would like to know more about his.

The covid tests do not always differentiate between the omecron and the flu. 
I just had the flu and can see how one might think they might have the covid, I did. 
Do we know for sure?


----------



## wr

Nevada said:


> As I keep saying, there's more to it than that. The posts that discourage getting vaccinated challenge accepted science for points that have been specifically disproven. Yet that false information is posted time and time again, even after authoritative references prove those statements to be wrong. U;m talking about claims like:
> 
> 
> Covid vaccines don't prevent infection.
> Natural immunity is better than vaccine immunity.
> The pandemic was caused by vaccines.
> The danger of rare vaccine side effects is greater than the danger of covid.
> Vaccines cause variants.
> Many may die from vaccines because they may cause unanticipated disease, including cancer.
> Vaccines can give you covid.
> 
> NONE OF THOSE ARE TRUE, Yet some, particularly the myth that vaccines don't prevent covid, still persist.
> 
> Take a look at how many anti vaccine threads are started compared to those promoting vaccines. Yes, discouraging vaccines is very important to some.


I don't think any of us are discouraging others from getting vaccinated but do stand strongly on pro choice and against mandatory vaccinations. 

Somebody needs to be a lot more truthful about 'facts'. Vaccines help prevent infection and some have experienced very significant side effects. At this moment, I know fully vaccinated people who are infected, one who died with no comorbidities, one who is currently in hospital from a bad reaction and 

I'm fully vaccinated but feel that it's hard to make informed decisions in a world of half truths, hidden facts and misinformation from both sides shouting their own truth. 

Let's not forget that the mandates take away any right to an informed decison.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

QUOTE from Nevada,
As I keep saying, there's more to it than that. The posts that discourage getting vaccinated challenge accepted science for points that have been specifically disproven. Yet that false information is posted time and time again, even after authoritative references prove those statements to be wrong. U;m talking about claims like:


Covid vaccines don't prevent infection.
Natural immunity is better than vaccine immunity.


The danger of rare vaccine side effects is greater than the danger of covid.
Vaccines cause variants.


Vaccines can give you covid.

And then there are the really off the wall myths:


mRNA vaccines alter your DNA.
Covid vaccines are not vaccines.

NONE OF THOSE ARE TRUE, Yet some, particularly the myth that vaccines don't prevent covid, still persist. - NEVADA



NO the covid therapy does not prevent the covid, CDC says that, it limits the effects of covid
Natural immunity lasts 1 year or longer, the theropy, well, we are on our third or ninth or whatever "booster" which is just another shot.
if you are a kid the covid is irrelavant to you, but 45,000 or more, kids now have heart problems because of the therapy. And than there are those pesky dead athletes still dropping
There are professionals who disagree with these points. Vaccines do not "give you covid", but they do distribute the "spike protein" throughout your body which causes reactions by some.
mRNA does change the cell DAN, or RNA, what is the point on that. This is what mRNA does.
Covid theropy does not teach your body to fight the virus. It inserts instructions about the virus. These are different things. As I said before, control the language, contro the conversation.


----------



## Danaus29

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> I would like to know more about his.
> 
> The covid tests do not always differentiate between the omecron and the flu.
> I just had the flu and can see how one might think they might have the covid, I did.
> Do we know for sure?



The tests being used differentiate between covid, influenza A and influenza B. There is a possibility of error but the current tests used are pretty accurate. All the tests depend on collecting a sample of the virus so you can have one virus but not enough colonization to be shedding that particular virus at the time the sample is collected.

When I was really sick with whatever I had, I was negative for the flu. I wish the hospital had given me a covid test but the CDC refused the offer of the Chinese tests.


----------



## Nevada

Danaus29 said:


> The only breakthrough cases that are being tracked are those that result in hospitalization or death. By stopping testing of vaccinated people after exposure to covid, the CDC dropped the ball in proving the vaccines prevent infection. That is a fact. The CDC stopped counting all breakthrough cases early last year. It's on their website, I have posted it several times. Yes, it is very important to me. By giving vaccinated people the false belief that they can't get and spread covid, the CDC allowed the vaccinated to spread covid to those who could not (note, I did not say will not) get vaccinated.
> 
> eta, your quote says "can reduce". We've been down this road before.


Vaccines don't provide protection. Instead, they trigger the body to produce antibodies, which provide protection. Some people will get very good protection while others will get no protection at all, depending on how robust your immune system happens to be.


----------



## HDRider

Nevada said:


> Nobody has answered so I'll ask again. Why is discouraging the vaccine so important to you?


No one knows who you are talking to.

Me, and I can only answer for ME.

I got the shot.

My wife got the shot.

My two kids got the shot.

Am I one of "YOU" that is discouraging the "vaccine"?

I am discouraging the mandate.

I am discouraging the lies and fear mongering.


----------



## Hiro

Nevada said:


> Vaccines don't provide protection. Instead, they trigger the body to produce antibodies, which provide protection. Some people will get very good protection while others will get no protection at all, depending on how robust your immune system happens to be.


Real vaccines do more than produce antibodies. Your immune system "learns" to recognize the virus after being exposed to a killed or attenuated virus. It is long, lasting and effective immunity, sometimes up to 91% efficacy, but more common ~80%. 

The Wuflu shot is not a vaccine, as defined prior to 2019. You, the CDC, Merriam Webster can redefine to word at will. But, that doesn't make it true.


----------



## Nevada

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> NO the covid therapy does not prevent the covid, CDC says that, it limits the effects of covid
> 
> *Post 354 has an authoritative link to the CDC that says the vaccines DO prevent infection.*
> 
> Natural immunity lasts 1 year or longer, the theropy, well, we are on our third or ninth or whatever "booster" which is just another shot.
> 
> *Could be, it's too soon to tell.*
> 
> if you are a kid the covid is irrelavant to you, but 45,000 or more, kids now have heart problems because of the therapy. And than there are those pesky dead athletes still dropping
> 
> *This, from the CDC.*
> 
> _*Children can be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19 and can get sick with COVID-19.
> COVID-19 and Your Health. *_
> 
> There are professionals who disagree with these points. Vaccines do not "give you covid", but they do distribute the "spike protein" throughout your body which causes reactions by some.
> 
> mRNA does change the cell DAN, or RNA, what is the point on that. This is what mRNA does.
> 
> *The body replicates DNA for protein synthesis by creating mRNA, not the other way around. You need to take a microbiology course before posting on this topic.*
> 
> Covid theropy does not teach your body to fight the virus. It inserts instructions about the virus. These are different things.
> 
> *How is it different?*


----------



## Danaus29

Look at the CDC pages for other vaccines which say the vaccines prevent infection. But for the covid vaccine the CDC says 
"COVID-19 vaccines are effective at helping protect against severe disease and death from the virus that causes COVID-19, including known variants currently circulating (e.g., Delta variant)."

The covid vaccine does not prevent covid. The CDC does not claim the vaccine prevents covid.

This is from the CDC website regarding the MMR vaccine

"The MMR vaccine is very safe and effective. Two doses of MMR vaccine are about 97% effective at preventing measles; one dose is about 93% effective."


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Nevada said:


> So when you share your thoughts with us, why don't you share your thoughts about all the lives saved by covid vaccines?


Because I don't have any thoughts about "lives saved by covid "vaccines"" that I want to share. It's called free speech. Free to speak and free not to. MY choice.

Nevada, you earned by undying respect for taking care of Alma. However, that doesn't obligate me to comply with your whims.


----------



## wr

Nevada said:


> No, there's more to it than that. The passion goes beyond suggesting that the covid vaccine might or might not be a good idea.


Do you support taking away the right to informed decisions through mandated vaccinations?


----------



## JeffreyD

Nevada said:


> No, there's more to it than that. The passion goes beyond suggesting that the covid vaccine might or might not be a good idea.


Why is your passion about being vaccinated more important than our rights to refuse an unproven drug that has severe side effects. You continue to deny that there are severe symptoms, i posted about my personal experiences and those of some of our employees. Why? Just because YOU didn't personally experience bad side effects doesn't mean people aren't suffering.


----------



## JeffreyD

Nevada said:


> Again, no. I"m seeing name calling, belittling, and putting members on ignore. Some members are also posting information that they know is false. As I said, there's more to it than jusr "sharing your thoughts." You really, REALLY don' twant people to accept the covid vaccine. I just what to know why.


That's exactly what you and your cult do. Interesting that you can't see it. Smh...tds.


----------



## GTX63

I'm really not seeing anyone wishing death on those who have accepted the jab.
I haven't heard of anyone wishing they would lose their jobs, or their healthcare, or their privileges of doing business or enjoying entertainment or shopping in person.
I wonder where that comes from?


----------



## JeffreyD

Nevada said:


> That's not true. Covid vaccines not only prevent infection, they are very good at preventing infection, Researchers have even provided precise statistics about disease prevention, which have been duplicated in a number of studies. This, from the CDC's website.
> 
> *COVID 19-vaccines are effective and can reduce the risk of getting and spreading the virus that causes COVID-19. *
> 
> Why do you persist in making false statements that you know aren't true? It must be important to you, so why not say?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Benefits of Getting a COVID-19 Vaccine
> 
> 
> Learn about the benefits of COVID-19 vaccination based on what experts currently know. Vaccination will be an important tool to help stop the pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


The cdc has been known to lie. Why do you trust what they say? I guess you think that they don't, just like you still trust cnn and quote them often. When agencies lie, they cannot be trusted ever again. Like Fauci. He is a perpetual lier.


----------



## Danaus29

GTX63 said:


> I'm really not seeing anyone wishing death on those who have accepted the jab.
> I haven't heard of anyone wishing they would lose their jobs, or their healthcare, or their privileges of doing business or enjoying entertainment or shopping in person.
> I wonder where that comes from?


No, you haven't seen it from those who chose to remain unvaccinated. But those sentiments have been expressed by several vaccination supporters. One poster (maybe more, I remember one in particular) wished death on all the unvaccinated and several others stated that the unvaccinated need to lose their jobs.


----------



## JeffreyD

You ask questions and expect answers, yet you won't answer any! Why is that?


----------



## JeffreyD

Danaus29 said:


> No, you haven't seen it from those who chose to remain unvaccinated. But those sentiments have been expressed by several vaccination supporters. One poster (maybe more, I remember one in particular) wished death on all the unvaccinated and several others stated that the unvaccinated need to lose their jobs.


Yup^^^^^^


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Dear humans who read this thread,
There is other serious stuff happening in my life and the lives of others on this forum. Yes, I know I can choose to NOT open this thread, but I really do like conversation.

Patience, understanding, and compassion are essential for us as a community, albeit a virtual community.

Thank you.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2021/12/21/baltimore-rodgers-forge-christmas-lights/?fbclid=IwAR1-DA-vK1lCod_Wrp1i4Tr2PF9ZXG-vB5qJcPAs948NYR-iw1HusxmAvFo


----------



## Danaus29

I don't suscribe and WP won't let me read it.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Another source:




__





A man strung Christmas lights from his home to his neighbor’s to support her. The whole community followed.






www.msn.com


----------



## Danaus29

Thanks for the link. That is so sweet!


----------



## Nevada

wr said:


> Do you support taking away the right to informed decisions through mandated vaccinations?


Not as a blanket rule, but in some settings -- yes.

A hospital treats the most vulnerable among us at some of the most vulnerable episodes of their lives. When take a loved one to a hospital for care we have a right to assurance that the patient won't be exposed to a deadly disease and die during the process of getting well. Hospitals have a duty to take every reasonable precaution to protect patients. I don't think asking that those who treat our loved ones to get vaccinated is asking too much. Likewise, unless patients have a compelling reason to not be vaccinated then they should be required to be vaccinated upon admittance.

Schools are also a special circumstance, since K-12 attendance is usually mandated by law. Students shouldn't be forced into a situation that places their lives at risk. Without a compelling reason to decline the vaccine, both teachers and students should be vaccinated. Teachers who refuse should look for a new job, and students who refuse should attend by distance learning.

I think most other settings can go on a case-by-case basis. We don't have to go out to eat, so restaurants can set their own policy. Same for hotels & casinos. Supermarkets aren't so confined so face mask requirements are probably sufficient.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Thank you for clarifying your position.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

JeffreyD said:


> *The cdc has been known to lie*. Why do you trust what they say? I guess you think that they don't, just like you still trust cnn and quote them often. When agencies lie, they cannot be trusted ever again. Like Fauci. He is a perpetual lier.


*
And for me, this is exactly the problem.*

When President Trump came out supporting a vaccine program, the TDS people and the Democrat leadership fought it tooth and nail until...
they realized the power of masks and jabs. The turn around seemed to happen over a 3-4 day weekend (if I had the time I would research this. It would make a fascinating article, JOURNALISTS, any of you out there?). After that it was masks, masks, masks. It was politicized. Truth depends on your POV, so, I, we, are forced to do the research on our own rather than relying on the government bureaucrats to do their jobs. I should have know it would come down to this. Remember when Trump was elected and all the "resisters" came out? THAT WAS UN-AMERICAN. He was elected fair and square and we were stuck with him for four years like we have done before and now, but I digress...

*We should be able to trust our government for the basic stuff*. That, literally, is what makes America great. For me that was what Superman meant when he spoke of "Truth, Justice, and the American way", not concepts you find in much of the world.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Another source:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A man strung Christmas lights from his home to his neighbor’s to support her. The whole community followed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com


That is the coolist story I have heard in the last two years -THANK YOU, and MERRY CHRISTMAS! 

It gives me hope


----------



## wr

Nevada said:


> Not as a blanket rule, but in some settings -- yes.
> 
> A hospital treats the most vulnerable among us at some of the most vulnerable episodes of their lives. When take a loved one to a hospital for care we have a right to assurance that the patient won't be exposed to a deadly disease and die during the process of getting well. Hospitals have a duty to take every reasonable precaution to protect patients. I don't think asking that those who treat our loved ones to get vaccinated is asking too much. Likewise, unless patients have a compelling reason to not be vaccinated then they should be required to be vaccinated upon admittance.
> 
> Schools are also a special circumstance, since K-12 attendance is usually mandated by law. Students shouldn't be forced into a situation that places their lives at risk. Without a compelling reason to decline the vaccine, both teachers and students should be vaccinated. Teachers who refuse should look for a new job, and students who refuse should attend by distance learning.
> 
> I think most other settings can go on a case-by-case basis. We don't have to go out to eat, so restaurants can set their own policy. Same for hotels & casinos. Supermarkets aren't so confined so face mask requirements are probably sufficient.


I support vaccinations but remainly strongly pro choice and I'm strongly against refusing treatment to the unvaccinated.

Mandated vaccines are working so well in my province that we are experiencing serious essential worker (police, fire, ambulance) shortages. The last numbers I read indicated Alberta Health Services put 1600+ health care workers on leave. 

Sometimes the battle you pick doesn't achieve the results you want.


----------



## barnbilder

wr said:


> I support vaccinations but remainly strongly pro choice and I'm strongly against refusing treatment to the unvaccinated.
> 
> Mandated vaccines are working so well in my province that we are experiencing serious essential worker (police, fire, ambulance) shortages. The last numbers I read indicated Alberta Health Services put 1600+ health care workers on leave.
> 
> Sometimes the battle you pick doesn't achieve the results you want.


Have you had any accumulating snowfall yet? Not having police fire and ambulance employees might not be such a big deal if they couldn't get there anyway, due to a lack of snowplow drivers.


----------



## Danaus29

Schools here are cancelling classes because they can't get enough bus drivers. The city and county are pleading with drivers to sign on because they are so short handed. I don't know if it's because of the vaccine mandates or people don't want to work sucky hours for peanuts.


----------



## wr

barnbilder said:


> Have you had any accumulating snowfall yet? Not having police fire and ambulance employees might not be such a big deal if they couldn't get there anyway, due to a lack of snowplow drivers.


An EMT died late last week when there was no ambulance to pick him up in a timely manner and signifcant snowfall is expected on Dec 23rd. Things should get interesting.


----------



## mzgarden

Many of the people testing positive are vaccinated & boosted, according to our local government. Even vaxxed folks are ending up in the hospital around here. Stores by us are closing, shelves are bare, gas stations run out of gas fairly regularly, hospitals are stopping elective procedures because while they have beds, they do not have the staff, Amazon, Fed Ex and UPS deliveries are late - not enough drivers. We live on the outskirts of a big city - not super rural. People got paid to stay home, then those that worked from home or stayed home realized their bills were less, they took their kids out of daycare, ate more meals at home, didn't do the movie theatre, restaurant, bar thing for long enough many learned to live without it. Counties are desperate for snow plow/salt truck drivers, school districts are desperate for foodservice workers and bus drivers. The fear drum is being beaten loudly and consistently, so some people are afraid to go back to work, some won't get the shot or booster. The snake appears to be eating it's tail.


----------



## barnbilder

mzgarden said:


> Many of the people testing positive are vaccinated & boosted, according to our local government. Even vaxxed folks are ending up in the hospital around here. Stores by us are closing, shelves are bare, gas stations run out of gas fairly regularly, hospitals are stopping elective procedures because while they have beds, they do not have the staff, Amazon, Fed Ex and UPS deliveries are late - not enough drivers. We live on the outskirts of a big city - not super rural. People got paid to stay home, then those that worked from home or stayed home realized their bills were less, they took their kids out of daycare, ate more meals at home, didn't do the movie theatre, restaurant, bar thing for long enough many learned to live without it. Counties are desperate for snow plow/salt truck drivers, school districts are desperate for foodservice workers and bus drivers. The fear drum is being beaten loudly and consistently, so some people are afraid to go back to work, some won't get the shot or booster. The snake appears to be eating it's tail.


When Henry David Thoreau, before being plagiarized by a poser, so eloquently stated "we have nothing to fear, but fear itself", he couldn't have known how profound those words were. So often we hear people, in rabid defiance of common sense, state how they know people personally who were pictures of health that dropped dead from this disease. The further we descend into fear and paranoia, it's root causes and net effects, it becomes rather unsurprising that these rabid covidian sect members know of such instances. When they themselves are the smoking gun, the defining factor in the prognosis of people who have the misfortune of their personal influence, and that of their peers


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

wr said:


> I support vaccinations but remainly strongly pro choice and I'm strongly against refusing treatment to the unvaccinated.
> 
> Mandated vaccines are working so well in my province that we are experiencing serious essential worker (police, fire, ambulance) shortages. The last numbers I read indicated Alberta Health Services put 1600+ health care workers on leave.
> 
> Sometimes the battle you pick doesn't achieve the results you want.



Maybe it is not about the covid?

What would it take for people to begin believing the mandates are not about the disease, but about power/control?

Here in the US we have the Patriot Act, which lets the government go around court proceedings in the name of security.
It is supposed to self monitored by responsible people and judges
The 2016 elections showed this was not even remotely followed and is now used for politics.
I think the government here in the US has used it's free pass-no more!


----------



## GTX63

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> Maybe it is not about the covid?
> 
> What would it take for people to begin believing the mandates are not about the disease, but about power/control?


Not everyone holds their individual freedoms in the same regard that you might. 
Some believe they have more than enough liberty that surrendering a little for someone elses idea of the greater good is ok.
Others don't take it as seriously and won't, if ever, until it is realized to be gone for good.
If that is how they choose to live, then so be it, although forcing someone to understand a pov seems to be a one way street at the moment.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

It’s not about the Covid


----------



## Hiro

I used this up in the Dark Room, but feel it needs greater distribution:


----------



## DKJ

painterswife said:


> Please show where I have at any time posted anything about the vaccines or the claims about things like ivermectin that was not the truth. My side is science, the good and the bad. I am not political about covid or do I post propaganda. I discuss the science. I want people to be vaccinated, I am not for forcing them.


If you are interested in science, might I suggest you pick up a copy of Robert F. Kennedy's new book, The Truth about Fauci... The publisher has challenged anyone to prove any statement in the book untrue, and invited anyone to an open debate. Could be a worthwhile use of anyone's time to read the history of vaccinations in this country during the past 5 decades. I hope you don't dismiss him as an antivaxxer, as he and his children were fully vaccinated. You mentioned your side was science, the good and the bad. I'm afraid if you read the book, you might find far more bad than you have ever dreamed possible.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

DKJ said:


> If you are interested in science, might I suggest you pick up a copy of Robert F. Kennedy's new book, The Truth about Fauci...


I ordered a copy two days ago, it is back ordered 'till Jan 8th at Amazon

BTW the term antivaxxer is about people who do not believe in vaccines, not covid. This is about the jab and the fascist government. The people pushing the jab started this and it is a very different conversation than not trusting the jab. It is wrong here and disrespectful (I am not saying that is how you meant it) Sorry.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

GTX63 said:


> Not everyone holds their individual freedoms in the same regard that you might.
> Some believe they have more than enough liberty that surrendering a little for someone elses idea of the greater good is ok.
> Others don't take it as seriously and won't, if ever, until it is realized to be gone for good.
> If that is how they choose to live, then so be it, although forcing someone to understand a pov seems to be a one way street at the moment.



They should be able to take them away from me and others?

If they do not like it here, move. I sure as hell am not giving up my rights for them. PERIOD.


----------



## Nevada

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> BTW the term antivaxxer is about people who do not believe in vaccines, not covid. This is about the jab and the fascist government. The people pushing the jab started this and it is a very different conversation than not trusting the jab. It is wrong here and disrespectful (I am not saying that is how you meant it) Sorry.


It's just so incredibly important to you to not get the covid vaccine. I feel so badly for the unvaccinated, since their belief structure is leading them down a dangerous path. Don't bother telling me that you don't need or want my sympathy, I already know that. But it's a natural emotion when people decline a life-saving vaccine.

But I consider those who resisted the smallpox and polio vaccines to be antivaxxers, even though it might have only been a single vaccine that they resisted. But this is settled law. the case of Jacobson v. Massachusetts fount that states could mandate vaccines back in 1905. That makes Jacobson an antivaxxer, even though he only resisted the smallpox vaccine.

Resistance from the first polio vaccine shot was grounded in fact. A batch of polio vaccine that was supposed to have attenuated polio virus actually contained live polio virus. You can't blame people for being apprehensive. Celebrities tried to encourage the public to take the vaccine, including Elvis who famously took the vaccine shot on live TV during the Ed Sullivan Show. But that vaccine never caught on (for the record, my father was a physician and gave me that shot). About 5 years later Sabin developed an oral polio vaccine and virtually everyone in the world took it.

So antivaxxers have always been around. But they have always, *always* been on the wrong side of history -- with no exceptions.


----------



## GTX63

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> They should be able to take them away from me and others?


Oh yes, absolutely they believe they should have that power.
You are selfish, ignorant and without compassion for others.
Some communicate that pov arrogantly and with an aire of elitism.
Others are rude about it.
A few are more subtle, but it all boils down to the same intent.
They are self appointed arbiters given the greenlight by our government to single us out and try to get us pulled from the line.
They will continue down this path until the panic can be sold no more.
They won't regret what they did and they won't have remorse. They'll just idle in the shadows until the next event.
You think of the word "patriot" and freedom, liberty, love of country may come to mind. They use the word "patriot" and it translates to "citizen", meaning greater good, sacrifice and single minded service to their cause.
You are lost to them. They cannot change you, so you are free to pass on and away while they work on this generation and the one to come.


----------



## GTX63

Nevada said:


> It's just so incredibly important to you to not get the covid vaccine. I feel so badly for the unvaccinated, since their belief structure is leading them down a dangerous path. Don't bother telling me that you don't need or want my sympathy, I already know that. But it's a natural emotion when people decline a life-saving vaccine.
> 
> But I consider those who resisted the smallpox and polio vaccines to be antivaxxers, even though it might have only been a single vaccine that they resisted. But this is settled law. the case of Jacobson v. Massachusetts fount that states could mandate vaccines back in 1905. That makes Jacobson an antivaxxer, even though he only resisted the smallpox vaccine.
> 
> Resistance from the first polio vaccine shot was grounded in fact. A batch of polio vaccine that was supposed to have attenuated polio virus actually contained live polio virus. You can't blame people for being apprehensive. Celebrities tried to encourage the public to take the vaccine, including Elvis who famously took the vaccine shot on live TV during the Ed Sullivan Show. But that vaccine never caught on (for the record, my father was a physician and gave me that shot). About 5 years later Sabin developed an oral polio vaccine and virtually everyone in the world took it.
> 
> So antivaxxers have always been around. But they have always, *always* been on the wrong side of history -- with no exceptions.


Do you know who Renfield was?


----------



## Nevada

GTX63 said:


> Oh yes, absolutely they believe they should have that power.


Courts have consistently ruled that the government DOES have that power. That power isn't being exercised for covid vaccines, but there is no question that they have that power.

*Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws.*






Jacobson v. Massachusetts - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## GTX63

Three words Mr. Nevada.
"Hide and watch".


----------



## GTX63

I notice you continue to ignore questions about the water crisis in your area, and how the large population and their/your lifestyle are contributing directly to the permanent draining of several lakes. These lakes supply water to quite a few people and the matter is soon to also be considered a life threatening situation.
One hopes we don't reach a point where the government shows up at your door to throw your belongings in the back of a municipal van in order to relocate you to an area more beneficial to your fellow man.
I hope I didn't hype that too much.


----------



## Nevada

GTX63 said:


> I notice you continue to ignore questions about the water crisis in your area, and how the large population and their/your lifestyle are contributing directly to the permanent draining of several lakes. These lakes supply water to quite a few people and the matter is soon to also be considered a life threatening situation.
> One hopes we don't reach a point where the government shows up at your door to throw your belongings in the back of a municipal van in order to relocate you to an area more beneficial to your fellow man.
> I hope I didn't hype that too much.


When it comes to draining Lake Mead, Las Vegas isn't the culprit. We only take 4% of that water. The rest is mostly taken by California & Arizona.

Las Vegas is getting a bad rap.

But I do, of course, use lake Mead water. I shower with it, I flush my toilet with it, and I boil my spaghetti with it. Keep in mind that all that water is collected, treated, and sent back to Lake Mead. The only water that isn't sent back is that which is used for watering lawns and golf courses. That's where most of the 4% goes. I don't water anything outside.


----------



## GTX63

Nevada said:


> When it comes to draining Lake Mead, Las Vegas isn't the culprit. We only take 4% of that water. The rest is taken by California & Arizona.


So your voluntary/mandatory contribution to abating a health crisis is only based on your culpability?
Interesting.


----------



## no really

Nevada said:


> Courts have consistently ruled that the government DOES have that power. That power isn't being exercised for covid vaccines, but there is no question that they have that power.
> 
> *Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jacobson v. Massachusetts - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


Does that include the illegals coming in everyday? Oh, wait they've been shipped all over the country.


----------



## Nevada

no really said:


> Does that include the illegals coming in everyday? Oh, wait they've been shipped all over the country.


For legal entry, here are the requirements.









COVID-19 and Travel


CDC travel recommendations during the COVID-19 pandemic.




www.cdc.gov


----------



## GTX63

Post #412 made no mention of legal immigrants. 
The question was if mandatory vaccination included illegal aliens?


----------



## Nevada

GTX63 said:


> Post #412 made no mention of legal immigrants.
> The question was if mandatory vaccination included illegal aliens?


If the government found them they would be deported.

How did the topic change from government authority to mandate vaccines to vaccine requirements for the undocumented?


----------



## poppy

Nevada said:


> It's just so incredibly important to you to not get the covid vaccine. I feel so badly for the unvaccinated, since their belief structure is leading them down a dangerous path. Don't bother telling me that you don't need or want my sympathy, I already know that. But it's a natural emotion when people decline a life-saving vaccine.
> 
> But I consider those who resisted the smallpox and polio vaccines to be antivaxxers, even though it might have only been a single vaccine that they resisted. But this is settled law. the case of Jacobson v. Massachusetts fount that states could mandate vaccines back in 1905. That makes Jacobson an antivaxxer, even though he only resisted the smallpox vaccine.
> 
> Resistance from the first polio vaccine shot was grounded in fact. A batch of polio vaccine that was supposed to have attenuated polio virus actually contained live polio virus. You can't blame people for being apprehensive. Celebrities tried to encourage the public to take the vaccine, including Elvis who famously took the vaccine shot on live TV during the Ed Sullivan Show. But that vaccine never caught on (for the record, my father was a physician and gave me that shot). About 5 years later Sabin developed an oral polio vaccine and virtually everyone in the world took it.
> 
> So antivaxxers have always been around. But they have always, *always* been on the wrong side of history -- with no exceptions.


I see you still depend on TV shows for your scientific expertise. I still laugh about you citing Star Trek as a source years ago. I guess some things never change.


----------



## GTX63

Nevada said:


> If the government found them they would be deported.
> 
> How did the topic change from government authority to mandate vaccines to vaccine requirements for the undocumented?


 What is the difference?


----------



## no really

Nevada said:


> For legal entry, here are the requirements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 and Travel
> 
> 
> CDC travel recommendations during the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


As usual you ignore the text of my comment, illegals, is the important part. LOL, but you knew that, your attempt at diverting the meat of the comment is childish.


----------



## no really

Nevada said:


> If the government found them they would be deported.
> 
> How did the topic change from government authority to mandate vaccines to vaccine requirements for the





Nevada said:


> If the government found them they would be deported.
> 
> How did the topic change from government authority to mandate vaccines to vaccine requirements for the undocumented?


You're joking right?


----------



## Nevada

no really said:


> As usual you ignore the text of my comment, illegals, is the important part. LOL, but you knew that, your attempt at diverting the meat of the comment is childish.


You already know that the government can't have an effective mandate for people who don't technically exist.

But if it could be enforced, would you be in favor is mandating vaccines? Aren't you against mandating vaccines?


----------



## GTX63

This is why I couldn't care less what a person's position on a topic is, as long as they are honest.
When conversations devolve into tit for tats over semantics, and deflections, and ignoring questions, it is pointless.
I used to believe confirmation bias directed this. People who so despise a certain ideology that they didn't care if what CNN told them was true.
I am beginning to believe now that they just don't know any better. They respond indirectly to a direct question because that is how they are given their news from corporate media. 
Lawrence O Donnel says something vague and unsubstantiated and it is enough to satisfy them.
They have lost their cognitive reasoning thru atrophy.
You repeat a question and they feel badgered.
You ask a question about illegals and they respond with an answer about legal immigrants.


----------



## no really

Nevada said:


> You already know that the government can't have an effective mandate for people who don't technically exist.
> 
> But if it could be enforced, would you be in favor is mandating vaccines? Aren't you against mandating vaccines?


So you admit there is a problem with the large number of illegals entering our country,bringing with them any number of diseases and the criminal element.


----------



## Big_John

In the next 1-5 years, everyone will get the WuFlu...... Yes, you will get some variant of the virus. Covid-19 and it's bastard children are here to stay.

After 4-6 months the MRNA poke is worthless and with every new variant, the poke is more and more worthless.

This data below is incredibly positive and encouraging.... When you get it, just embrace the home protocols and DO THEM! Right now, find a Dr. that will prescribe the "Kitchen Sink of Drugs" and get through the 14 days of infection and be done with it. DO NOT WAIT until day 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 of infection to do something about it. Be aggressive with early treatment!!!!!!

Natural Immunity is Lifetime according to Dr. Peter McCullough, Cardiologist and Vice Chief of Internal Medicine at Baylor University Medical Center and a Professor at Texas A&M University.


----------



## Ironbutt

Lisa in WA said:


> yes, they are. I now know personally two people who have died from Covid. Both unvaccinated because one caught it before the vax was out and the other was in chemo for multiple myeloma and unable to be vaxxed. He picked up Covid somewhere and it killed him.


I know three people personally, being members of my CMA chapter who were vaccinated with at the time two of the vaccines available to die from Covid.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

GTX63 said:


> I notice you continue to ignore questions about the water crisis in your area, and how the large population and their/your lifestyle are contributing directly to the permanent draining of several lakes. These lakes supply water to quite a few people and the matter is soon to also be considered a life threatening situation.
> One hopes we don't reach a point where the government shows up at your door to throw your belongings in the back of a municipal van in order to relocate you to an area more beneficial to your fellow man.
> I hope I didn't hype that too much.


Who do you think you are talking to? Forget it, you are on IGNORE.

Maybe you should get one of those government jobs.
Will this happen before or after 2A is repealed?

Too bad we do not live closer.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

GTX63 said:


> This is why I couldn't care less what a person's position on a topic is, as long as they are honest.
> When conversations devolve into tit for tats over semantics, and deflections, and ignoring questions, it is pointless.
> I used to believe confirmation bias directed this. People who so despise a certain ideology that they didn't care if what CNN told them was true.
> I am beginning to believe now that they just don't know any better. They respond indirectly to a direct question because that is how they are given their news from corporate media.
> Lawrence O Donnel says something vague and unsubstantiated and it is enough to satisfy them.
> They have lost their cognitive reasoning thru atrophy.
> You repeat a question and they feel badgered.
> You ask a question about illegals and they respond with an answer about legal immigrants.



Ask me a question. Actually don't ask me a question. You are not a nice person and are now on IGNORE.

BTW, am recovering from covid as I type.

Guess what I took yesterday that made me start feeling better after 3 hours or so, much to my surprise?


----------



## Nevada

no really said:


> So you admit there is a problem with the large number of illegals entering our country,bringing with them any number of diseases and the criminal element.


I don't know any, so I wouldn't know how many there are or how big of a problem they might create.


----------



## ryanthomas

Ironbutt said:


> I know three people personally, being members of my CMA chapter who were vaccinated with at the time two of the vaccines available to die from Covid.


Are you sure they didn't die WITH covid?


----------



## no really

Nevada said:


> I don't know any, so I wouldn't know how many there are or how big of a problem they might create.


LOL, you are so funny. 😂😂😂


----------



## ryanthomas

Nevada said:


> I don't know any, so I wouldn't know how many there are or how big of a problem they might create.


Is all of your knowledge limited strictly to what you witness directly?


----------



## Nevada

ryanthomas said:


> Is all of your knowledge limited strictly to what you witness directly?


Nobody believes me anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

Specific to Mexico, I cross the border a few times a year. I'm told that my experience doesn't count because I go there for dental work and medications. In fact I'll be there in the next week or two.


----------



## GTX63

Nevada said:


> I don't know any, so I wouldn't know how many there are or how big of a problem they might create.


I can tell you what my fairly liberal leaning sister just down the road in Tuscon thinks regarding the problem they are creating.
I could also tell you what my geologist brother in law would say about your water situation there in Nevada, but your media filter must have new batteries.


----------



## GTX63

Nevada said:


> Nobody believes me anyway, so it doesn't really matter.


Truth and honesty matter. 
When you respond like your head is in a fog, and you are searching for your note cards, then you are wasting other's time.
Members quote you some fairly common facts, studies, links to information, quotes and relevant data and it is as if you have never even heard of anything outside your own news stream.
Your mental digestion seems to be critical thought intolerant.
If you had even a passing interest in the other alarming dangers Americans face in this country, that take more lives every year than a wilting virus, you might be on the path to engaging in reasonable conversation.
I'm not sure you even believe yourself all of the time, you just seem content to let the news needle keep skipping.
Maybe we all are guilty from time to time of being fat and happy with what we think we know.


----------



## GTX63

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> Ask me a question. Actually don't ask me a question. You are not a nice person and are now on IGNORE.
> 
> BTW, am recovering from covid as I type.
> 
> Guess what I took yesterday that made me start feeling better after 3 hours or so, much to my surprise?


I'm sorry you are sick and sorry you thought I was speaking to you.


----------



## 67drake

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> Who do you think you are talking to? Forget it, you are on IGNORE.
> 
> Maybe you should get one of those government jobs.
> Will this happen before or after 2A is repealed?
> 
> Too bad we do not live closer.


I think GTX was aiming that post at a different member, not you.


----------



## GTX63

Yep.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

"I feel so badly for the unvaccinated, since their belief structure is leading them down a dangerous path." 

HAHAHA









The Unvaccinated Are Looking Smarter Every Week


There is a massive propaganda push against those choosing not to vaccinate against COVID-19 with the experimental mRNA vaccines. Mainstream media, the big tech corporations, and our government have combined efforts to reward compliance and to shame a...




www.americanthinker.com


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Nevada said:


> Nobody believes me anyway, so it doesn't really matter.


Yes.


----------



## Nevada

GTX63 said:


> I can tell you what my fairly liberal leaning sister just down the road in Tuscon thinks regarding the problem they are creating.
> I could also tell you what my geologist brother in law would say about your water situation there in Nevada, but your media filter must have new batteries.


I don't care where your sister lives or what your brother's occupation might be, Las Vegas still draws just 4% of the Colorado River water. If either of them tell you differently then they are misinformed.

I used to live in Ajo, which is in the same county as Tucson and even closer to the border. Next week (or maybe the week after) I'll be in Yuma for a few days. I'll be spending most of those days in Los Algodones, BC, Mexico. I only stay on the USA side of the border because I take pain meds with me, and they are anal retentive about pain meds at the border.


----------



## Redlands Okie

Nevada said:


> I can't help but wonder why it's so important to some members to discourage covid vaccination.


I personally do not discourage anyone from taking a covid shot. I do have a problem when people print inaccurate information about the subject and I will point it out. They can at least use accurate information in their posting about covid.


----------



## Redlands Okie

Danaus29 said:


> The tests being used differentiate between covid, influenza A and influenza B. There is a possibility of error but the current tests used are pretty accurate. All the tests depend on collecting a sample of the virus so you can have one virus but not enough colonization to be shedding that particular virus at the time the sample is collected.
> 
> When I was really sick with whatever I had, I was negative for the flu. I wish the hospital had given me a covid test but the CDC refused the offer of the Chinese tests.


From what I have read the test that are supposed to be used after the first of the year can tell the difference among the strains. The test normally used up till now cannot. I do not have time to look for a link but its on the CDC website and others.


----------



## Redlands Okie

Nevada said:


> That's not true. Covid vaccines not only prevent infection, they are very good at preventing infection, Researchers have even provided precise statistics about disease prevention, which have been duplicated in a number of studies. This, from the CDC's website.
> 
> *COVID 19-vaccines are effective and can reduce the risk of getting and spreading the virus that causes COVID-19. *
> 
> Why do you persist in making false statements that you know aren't true? It must be important to you, so why not say?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Benefits of Getting a COVID-19 Vaccine
> 
> 
> Learn about the benefits of COVID-19 vaccination based on what experts currently know. Vaccination will be an important tool to help stop the pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


“COVID 19-vaccines are effective and can reduce the risk of getting and spreading the virus that causes COVID-19.”

“Effective” has already been shown to be pretty vague term. Please note the word “CAN”. More vague terminology. Sadly the CDC has made it into a impressive art form.


----------



## barnbilder

Persimmon seeds are good covid tests. If you spit a persimmon seed straight up in the air and it hits you when it falls down you are positive. You can cut it open and determine the strain by comparing the various patterns to silverware.


----------



## nchobbyfarm

Hiro said:


> HF is never very good with punctuation or capitalization regardless of what screen name is currently in use.


And he is currently using several different screen names. And he backs away everytime someone points out his presence. But he always returns.


----------



## Nevada

nchobbyfarm said:


> And he is currently using several different screen names. And he backs away everytime someone points out his presence. But he always returns.


Screen names? Sounds like an AOL throwback term.


----------



## nchobbyfarm

Nevada said:


> Screen names? Sounds like an AOL throwback term.


Insert whatever term that you think is appropriate. 

I have no idea what an AOL term is and don't really care to learn.


----------



## HDRider

nchobbyfarm said:


> Insert whatever term that you think is appropriate.
> 
> I have no idea what an AOL term is and don't really care to learn.


Now now. It is Christmas 

I am going to try to be nice all day long


----------



## nchobbyfarm

HDRider said:


> Now now. It is Christmas
> 
> I am going to try to be nice all day long


Ok.

I was being nice.


----------



## Ironbutt

Nevada said:


> That's not true. Covid vaccines not only prevent infection, they are very good at preventing infection, Researchers have even provided precise statistics about disease prevention, which have been duplicated in a number of studies. This, from the CDC's website.
> 
> *COVID 19-vaccines are effective and can reduce the risk of getting and spreading the virus that causes COVID-19. *
> 
> Why do you persist in making false statements that you know aren't true? It must be important to you, so why not say?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Benefits of Getting a COVID-19 Vaccine
> 
> 
> Learn about the benefits of COVID-19 vaccination based on what experts currently know. Vaccination will be an important tool to help stop the pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


US Navy Warship Pauses Deployment After COVID-19 Outbreak Among '100 Percent Immunized' Crew NOW DO YOU BELIEVE THE GARBAGE YOU ARE SELLING?


----------



## painterswife

Ironbutt said:


> US Navy Warship Pauses Deployment After COVID-19 Outbreak Among '100 Percent Immunized' Crew NOW DO YOU BELIEVE THE GARBAGE YOU ARE SELLING?


No one ever said they were 100 percent effective.


----------



## Hiro

painterswife said:


> No one ever said they were 100 percent effective.


I am pretty sure Brandon has spouted out that nonsense numerous times in between the gibberish he mumbles.


----------



## painterswife

Hiro said:


> I am pretty sure Brandon has spouted out that nonsense numerous times in between the gibberish he mumbles.


I am pretty sure no one ever said 100 percent.


----------



## GTX63

Pretty sure or 100% sure?


----------



## poppy

painterswife said:


> No one ever said they were 100 percent effective.


We don't know if they are effective at all for preventing Omicron infections. There is no way to tell since most cases among both the vaxxed and unvaxxed are nonexistent or mild and not tested. I think India uses different vaccines, but this article shows of 34 patients in Delhi hospital with Omicron (it does not say if they are hospitalized because of Omicron or if they are in for other things and happened to test positive for it) 33 were fully vaccinated. That's about 99% vaccinated in a country with only 40% fully vaccinated.

33 out of 34 hospitalized Omicron Patients in Delhi are FULLY VAXXED (substack.com)


----------



## Nevada

Ironbutt said:


> US Navy Warship Pauses Deployment After COVID-19 Outbreak Among '100 Percent Immunized' Crew NOW DO YOU BELIEVE THE GARBAGE YOU ARE SELLING?


That's interesting, and I would like to know more about it. The article doesn't say which vaccine was used or whether they got a booster shot.


----------



## Nevada

poppy said:


> We don't know if they are effective at all for preventing Omicron infections.


That simply not true. We're still learning more about the effectiveness for variants, but the numbers look good, even for omicron.


----------



## Nevada

GTX63 said:


> Pretty sure or 100% sure?


Careful. You're criticising the Trump vaccines. If you were a politician he would have you primaried.


----------



## barnbilder

Nevada said:


> That's interesting, and I would like to know more about it. The article doesn't say which vaccine was used or whether they got a booster shot.


Doesn't say if any of them had an owl feather in their pocket either.


----------



## GTX63

Nevada said:


> Careful. You're criticising the Trump vaccines. If you were a politician he would have you primaried.


I thought I posted a question.


----------



## poppy

Nevada said:


> That simply not true. We're still learning more about the effectiveness for variants, but the numbers look good, even for omicron.


Yea, really good. Here's the latest update I could find from the CDC on Dec. 17 about the first 43 cases of Omicron in the US. Read down a few paragraphs and it tells you that of those 43 cases 79% were in fully vaccinated people. Maybe CNN didn't get the memo?

SARS-CoV-2 B.1.1.529 (Omicron) Variant — United States, December 1–8, 2021 | MMWR (cdc.gov)


----------



## poppy

Nevada said:


> Careful. You're criticising the Trump vaccines. If you were a politician he would have you primaried.


Yep, the same ones Biden praised him for.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO




----------



## Nevada

poppy said:


> Yea, really good. Here's the latest update I could find from the CDC on Dec. 17 about the first 43 cases of Omicron in the US. Read down a few paragraphs and it tells you that of those 43 cases 79% were in fully vaccinated people. Maybe CNN didn't get the memo?
> 
> SARS-CoV-2 B.1.1.529 (Omicron) Variant — United States, December 1–8, 2021 | MMWR (cdc.gov)


I found it interesting (you probably won't) that the first omicron related death wa a person who previously had covid. Evidently natural covid immunity is no guarantee either.

*The first confirmed Omicron-related death in the US was reported Monday. The Texas man in his 50s was unvaccinated, had underlying health conditions and previously had been infected with Covid-19, officials said. *









Omicron will not recognize state lines when it storms the US, expert says | CNN


The impact of the Omicron coronavirus variant on a largely unboosted US population going into the holiday season will create a "perfect storm" that will challenge health care systems from coast to coast, an expert said Monday.




www.cnn.com


----------



## ryanthomas

Nevada said:


> That's interesting, and I would like to know more about it. The article doesn't say which vaccine was used or whether they got a booster shot.


Also doesn't say how big the outbreak is, probably for national security reasons. That ship has a crew of around 100. The outbreak could be 5 or it could be 50. Not much info, not proof of anything except what we already knew, that the vaccines don't work as well as they hoped they would. Oh, well.


----------



## ryanthomas

poppy said:


> Yea, really good. Here's the latest update I could find from the CDC on Dec. 17 about the first 43 cases of Omicron in the US. Read down a few paragraphs and it tells you that of those 43 cases 79% were in fully vaccinated people. Maybe CNN didn't get the memo?
> 
> SARS-CoV-2 B.1.1.529 (Omicron) Variant — United States, December 1–8, 2021 | MMWR (cdc.gov)


That could easily be skewed by the unvaccinated being less likely to get tested. We may be getting infected as much or more than the vaccinated but we're not freaking out and getting tested every time we have a sniffle.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

painterswife said:


> I am pretty sure no one ever said 100 percent.


I thinks you b wanting to say that again, go on brandon.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

Nevada said:


> That simply not true. We're still learning more about the effectiveness for variants, but the numbers look good, even for omicron.


Conservative s can and do criticize those we find wrong from OUR perspective

But WRT your comment, if a "vaccine" works, than you are protected. It does not seem to be overly effective on any of the variants.

One thing is true though, in the parts of India where Ivermectin is given to patients at first "sniffle", they do not have a civid problem, real or imagined.


----------



## wr

Nevada said:


> That's interesting, and I would like to know more about it. The article doesn't say which vaccine was used or whether they got a booster shot.



Unless the US is different than Canada, you need to wait 6 months before you can get your 3rd vaccination. 

The fact remains that the vaccinations aren’t nearly as comprehensive as people were told they were which has fostered a great deal of mistrust.


----------



## poppy

ryanthomas said:


> That could easily be skewed by the unvaccinated being less likely to get tested. We may be getting infected as much or more than the vaccinated but we're not freaking out and getting tested every time we have a sniffle.


No doubt us unvaxxed folks can get infected also but the data shows those still claiming the vax prevents infection are 100% wrong.


----------



## painterswife

poppy said:


> No doubt us unvaxxed folks can get infected also but the data shows those still claiming the vax prevents infection are 100% wrong.


Who is saying that vaccinations are 100 percent effective? Do you have proof or are you just spreading more propaganda?


----------



## poppy

Nevada said:


> I found it interesting (you probably won't) that the first omicron related death wa a person who previously had covid. Evidently natural covid immunity is no guarantee either.
> 
> *The first confirmed Omicron-related death in the US was reported Monday. The Texas man in his 50s was unvaccinated, had underlying health conditions and previously had been infected with Covid-19, officials said. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron will not recognize state lines when it storms the US, expert says | CNN
> 
> 
> The impact of the Omicron coronavirus variant on a largely unboosted US population going into the holiday season will create a "perfect storm" that will challenge health care systems from coast to coast, an expert said Monday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


I agree it is interesting, partly because you ignored the part about him having underlying health conditions, which means they didn't say the virus killed him. People already very ill from many diseases can be finished off by a common cold or the flu. He also may have had no symptoms of COVID and was only diagnosed with it after he was tested in the hospital. Vaccinated people with underlying health conditions can die with the virus too, which would make the death 'COVID related'.


----------



## poppy

painterswife said:


> Who is saying that vaccinations are 100 percent effective? Do you have proof or are you just spreading more propaganda?


No one is saying that but some keep insisting the vax does reduce your chance of getting infected. There is zero proof of that.


----------



## ryanthomas

poppy said:


> No doubt us unvaxxed folks can get infected also but the data shows those still claiming the vax prevents infection are 100% wrong.


I think it's a matter of semantics. Many seem to read the words "prevent infection" as "eliminate infection" but that's not what it means. It's like saying "seatbelts save lives." Most of us accept that as true, but obviously some people die in car crashes while wearing their seatbelts. The vaccines probably do prevent infections, just not all infections.


----------



## painterswife

poppy said:


> No one is saying that but some keep insisting the vax does reduce your chance of getting infected. There is zero proof of that.


Most people do not really understand that you have to be actually infected to be able to mount an immune response.

Vaccines do reduce rates of infections in reality. They reduce illness and therefore reduce the ability to transmit it and then the spread. They don't reduce it 100 percent because not all immune systems are robust enough to fight all infections even with a vaccine.


----------



## JeffreyD

Nevada said:


> Nobody believes me anyway, so it doesn't really matter.
> 
> Specific to Mexico, I cross the border a few times a year. I'm told that my experience doesn't count because I go there for dental work and medications. In fact I'll be there in the next week or two.


Your right.
So wrong about so much so often. 
Yet you won't answer questions about posts you make. Since you can only back up a few of the things you post with quotes from cnn, we all laugh hard and loud, and long.


----------



## JeffreyD

painterswife said:


> No one ever said they were 100 percent effective.


Yeah, it's not even close. Natural immunity is much, much better. Fauci and his minions are outright liers. That, is fact that cannot be disputed.


----------



## painterswife

JeffreyD said:


> Yeah, it's not even close. Natural immunity is much, much better. Fauci and his minions are outright liers. That, is fact that cannot be disputed.


It can be disputed. Just no point doing it here.


----------



## JeffreyD

painterswife said:


> It can be disputed. Just no point doing it here.


No, it cant. Or you would have tried. Fauci is a lier, so is the cdc, that is an undeniable fact. But you go a head and believe what you want.


----------



## painterswife

JeffreyD said:


> No, it cant. Or you would have tried. Fauci is a lier, so is the cdc, that is an undeniable fact. But you go a head and believe what you want.


. You made my day.


----------



## Nevada

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> But WRT your comment, if a "vaccine" works, than you are protected. It does not seem to be overly effective on any of the variants.


A vaccine can work for some but not others. That's because vaccines trigger the production of antibodies. People with a robust immune system will generate more antibodies than people with a weak immune system. So it's not so much a question of how good the vaccine is, it's a question of how well the immune system works.

I read somewhere Maderna is developing a vaccine specific to omicron. We'll see how that goes.


----------



## Nevada

JeffreyD said:


> No, it cant. Or you would have tried. Fauci is a lier, so is the cdc, that is an undeniable fact. But you go a head and believe what you want.


Trump touted the vaccines during his Christmas message. He said the covid vaccines are safe & effective, and even referred to them as a "Christmas miracle."


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Nevada said:


> A vaccine can work for some but not others. That's because vaccines trigger the production of antibodies. People with a robust immune system will generate more antibodies than people with a weak immune system. So it's not so much a question of how good the vaccine is, it's a question of how well the immune system works.
> 
> I read somewhere Maderna is developing a vaccine specific to omicron. We'll see how that goes.


----------



## 67drake

Nevada said:


> Trump touted the vaccines during his Christmas message. He said the covid vaccines are safe & effective, and even referred to them as a "Christmas miracle."


That’s only important if you’re not getting a jab for political reasons. I won’t get one regardless of which political party tells me their nonsense.


----------



## painterswife

67drake said:


> That’s only important if you’re not getting a jab for political reasons. I won’t get one regardless of which political party tells me their nonsense.


Then again maybe you are doing for your own health or a family members health. Nothing political about that.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

ryanthomas said:


> I think it's a matter of semantics. Many seem to read the words "prevent infection" as "eliminate infection" but that's not what it means. It's like saying "seatbelts save lives." Most of us accept that as true, but obviously some people die in car crashes while wearing their seatbelts. The vaccines probably do prevent infections, just not all infections.


If the Gov were being up front about this whole topic, "can" or "may" would be the words used WRT "prevent".

What I challenge the pro-covid "vax" people here is "How can you trust big pharma and the Gov given the amount of obfuscation, denial, and down right not publishing the data about covid, as well as the shutting down alternate, cheap and effective treatments, plus those pesky the emails that are coming out?"

I have nothing against those who CHOOSE to get the jab, but why prevent me from doing what I judge best given the science and, as some have said, the vax aint 100%. 
WQe all are human beings and have the right to try and do what is best. The jab is not the answer, even by Big pharm and Big Gov's words.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

painterswife said:


> It can be disputed. Just no point doing it here.



Arguing is not disbuting any more than arguing is a debate.

Nevada:

Varients are not strains, so the covid jab should work on them ( if they work at all)
Strains generally do need a new vaccine. One of he reasons we get different flu shots every year. (and yes, I am aware of THOSE issues )


----------



## painterswife

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> Arguing is not disbuting any more than arguing is a debate.


Wow, so profound.


----------



## Redlands Okie

Seems likely the new variants are going to spread before the vaccines have time to react in your body. 

Covid original still seems to most likely to spread 2 to 3 days before symptoms. Most contagious at 1 to 2 days before feeling sick.

Delta variety is more than twice as contagious and the whole infection process happens much faster. The Delta viral load is more than 1000 times greater than previous strains. Now if that pattern happens with omicron variety then its a even faster process with even a greater load to spread. 

We hear nothing about the vaccines actual PERCENTAGES to do anything but prevent hospitalization. And thats not working very well to original plans now either. Does your body even have time to respond with some effectiveness before your spreading it, especially with omicron variant? If it was then it would not spread so easy. Time to grasp some reality folks.












Coronavirus Incubation Period


What's the incubation period for coronavirus? Learn more about the incubation period for coronavirus, when the virus is most contagious, and how long to quarantine after you’ve been exposed to COVID-19.




www.webmd.com


----------



## GTX63

> _JeffreyD said:_
> _No, it cant. Or you would have tried. Fauci is a lier, so is the cdc, that is an undeniable fact. But you go a head and believe what you want._





Nevada said:


> Trump touted the vaccines during his Christmas message. He said the covid vaccines are safe & effective, and even referred to them as a "Christmas miracle."


So rather than disprove what JeffreyD said, you simply make a political statement in lieu of a reasoned response. 
You are ok with Fauci lying, ok with the CDC lying, because well, Trump.
Ok then,


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

67drake said:


> That’s only important if you’re not getting a jab for political reasons. I won’t get one regardless of which political party tells me their nonsense.


@Nevada honestly thinks some of us give a damn what Trump says.

…which is hilarious coming from a guy who believes everything Wolf Blitzer tells him to believe.


----------



## GTX63

Some people who are afraid to think for themselves need a mental baby sitter, like MSNBC, etc; that is what a hardened ideologue can become. They then believe that everyone who disagrees with them must also be a hardened ideologue, though they follow someone different than they do, thus the amateur hour responses.
It is a shame.


----------



## Hiro




----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

GTX63 said:


> Some people who are afraid to think for themselves need a mental baby sitter, like MSNBC, etc; that is what a hardened ideologue can become. They then believe that everyone who disagrees with them must also be a hardened ideologue, though they follow someone different than they do, thus the amateur hour responses.
> It is a shame.


I think there probably is something to that, the point about ideologue projection.

The thing that rattles me is how it doesn’t bother them when they come to realize that they agree with one source 100% of the time. I mean, it could be a coincidence… but it’s not. There are far too many junctures at which opinions can diverge for there to be 100% agreement (or even 90%, really) with any one source.

How does one not pause and have a “wait a second” moment, and question their own questioning? I had that moment once with a particular radio talk show team that I listen to frequently. It actually made me nervous that I was agreeing with too much of what they said, so I started looking for it. Not only did I find that the various members of the team only agreed with each other about 90% of the time, they only had me about 70%.

Listening to these CNN-NBC-CBS-ABC-NPR-Twitter-Facebook zombies is kind of spooky. The only way I can reconcile it is to accept that Orwell had a time machine, and goodthink wasn’t a device of his own creation. He merely observed it.


----------



## Hiro

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I think there probably is something to that, the point about ideologue projection.
> 
> The thing that rattles me is how it doesn’t bother them when they come to realize that they agree with one source 100% of the time. I mean, it could be a coincidence… but it’s not. There are far too many junctures at which opinions can diverge for there to be 100% agreement (or even 90%, really) with any one source.
> 
> How does one not pause and have a “wait a second” moment, and question their own questioning? I had that moment once with a particular radio talk show team that I listen to frequently. It actually made me nervous that I was agreeing with too much of what they said, so I started looking for it. Not only did I find that the various members of the team only agreed with each other about 90% of the time, they only had me about 70%.
> 
> Listening to these CNN-NBC-CBS-ABC-NPR-Twitter-Facebook zombies is kind of spooky. The only way I can reconcile it is to accept that Orwell had a time machine, and goodthink wasn’t a device of his own creation. He merely observed it.


It wouldn't rattle me other than that army of NPC's is what gives power to TPTB that definitively do not have the average citizens' best interest at heart.


----------



## JeffreyD

painterswife said:


> Wow, so profound.


So useless...


----------



## painterswife

JeffreyD said:


> So useless...


That makes me happy that you think that.


----------



## GTX63

painterswife said:


> That makes me happy that you think that.


See post #491 and #493.


----------



## painterswife

GTX63 said:


> See post #491 and #493.


 Just because you are off base does not make it true. That is the beauty of it. That makes me happy as well.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO




----------



## Hiro




----------



## poppy

But cases like hers are rare so they don't really matter. There were 4 young heathy soccer players who also died this past week from heart attacks, but they are rare too.


----------



## Hiro

poppy said:


> But cases like hers are rare so they don't really matter. There were 4 young heathy soccer players who also died this past week from heart attacks, but they are rare too.


With the only common denominator being young and healthy recently getting a shot to protect them from something that is highly unlikely to harm them. The premise for the young and healthy to get the shot was so they couldn't get the Wuflu and transmit the Wuflu. So, why are the young and healthy being forced, mandated to get the shot again?


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

One of my granddaughter’s third grade class members died a few days after the “vaccine.”

Yeah. An anomaly. Sure. You believe that if it serves your agenda.

Explain that to my granddaughter.


----------



## Hiro

Alice In TX/MO said:


> One of my granddaughter’s third grade class members died a few days after the “vaccine.”
> 
> Yeah. An anomaly. Sure. You believe that if it serves your agenda.
> 
> Explain that to my granddaughter.


Why the push to vaccinate jab children that are highly unlikely to be harmed by the Wuflu when we don't know the whether the jab protects/prevents children from getting the Wuflu or spreading the Wuflu? We do know it is likely more dangerous to jab children than having the Wuflu. 

Nuremburg on steroids is in order.


----------



## Danaus29

Biden did state you wouldn't die if you were vaccinated.









Did Biden Say You Won't Get COVID if You're Vaccinated?


Biden overstated the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccinations during a July 2021 town hall.




www.snopes.com


----------



## poppy

Danaus29 said:


> Biden did state you wouldn't die if you were vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did Biden Say You Won't Get COVID if You're Vaccinated?
> 
> 
> Biden overstated the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccinations during a July 2021 town hall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.snopes.com



At least Biden overstated it instead of lying about it. Wonder how many people saw him say it on video and are online telling people who say it isn't true that they are dead wrong.


----------



## nchobbyfarm

Danaus29 said:


> Biden did state you wouldn't die if you were vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did Biden Say You Won't Get COVID if You're Vaccinated?
> 
> 
> Biden overstated the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccinations during a July 2021 town hall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.snopes.com


Oops!


----------



## Danaus29

Nevada said:


> I found it interesting (you probably won't) that the first omicron related death wa a person who previously had covid. Evidently natural covid immunity is no guarantee either.
> 
> *The first confirmed Omicron-related death in the US was reported Monday. The Texas man in his 50s was unvaccinated, had underlying health conditions and previously had been infected with Covid-19, officials said. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron will not recognize state lines when it storms the US, expert says | CNN
> 
> 
> The impact of the Omicron coronavirus variant on a largely unboosted US population going into the holiday season will create a "perfect storm" that will challenge health care systems from coast to coast, an expert said Monday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


He died with omicron, not from omicron. The media is spreading the false idea that the man died from omicron. I doubt there will be an update but the officials are still trying to find out what the man died from.





__





Media Falsely Reports Texas Man Died From Omicron While Government Officials Refuse To Say | ZeroHedge


ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




www.zerohedge.com





But the fact checkers care only about confirming that he was unvaccinated. Not the true cause of death.









No, the first omicron death reported in the US was not a fully vaccinated person


The first omicron-related death reported in the U.S. was a Texas man who was unvaccinated and had underlying health conditions.




www.12newsnow.com


----------



## barnbilder

Alice In TX/MO said:


> One of my granddaughter’s third grade class members died a few days after the “vaccine.”
> 
> Yeah. An anomaly. Sure. You believe that if it serves your agenda.
> 
> Explain that to my granddaughter.


Not uncommon for religions, such as Covidism, to include some form of human sacrifice. I don't know whether you get 40 masks when you get to the great beyond, or just the satisfaction of being a martyred saint, you would have to ask an official practitioner. These idiots are literally killing people, and it's crickets. The suicides, the ODs, the elder neglect I could predict from the start, but this is ridiculous. I feel much safer seeing someone with a turban leaving a backpack somewhere than seeing someone with a mask. The mask is much deadlier.


----------



## barnbilder

What's the score on people that have died taking the holy Covid sacrament versus people that have died from drinking bleach now?


----------



## nchobbyfarm

barnbilder said:


> What's the score on people that have died taking the holy Covid sacrament versus people that have died from drinking bleach now?


Bravo!


----------



## Danaus29

barnbilder said:


> What's the score on people that have died taking the holy Covid sacrament versus people that have died from drinking bleach now?


Are we using the same parameters as what is used to count covid deaths?


----------



## barnbilder

Danaus29 said:


> Are we using the same parameters as what is used to count covid deaths?


Absolutely. If you drank bleach, and died within two weeks to a month, it was a bleach death. If you got the shot, and died within two weeks to a month, it's a vaccine death.


----------



## GTX63

Now in liquid form and available in mollasses, apple and licorice flavors!


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

barnbilder said:


> Absolutely. If you drank bleach, and died within two weeks to a month, it was a bleach death. If you got the shot, and died within two weeks to a month, it's a vaccine death.


Can you only imagine if the Covidians had to live by their own logic?

For crying out loud, CNN tells them, and these NPCs believe them, that if someone gets their Covid shot and dies sometime within the next two weeks, it’s an “unvaccinated Covid death”. They NEED that tally in the column to validate and make any sense out of their decision to take the fear shot.

If the CDC used the same rules they did for “Covid deaths”, and counted everyone who ever had Fauci’s fear-shot and died as a “vaccine death”, and CNN ran the resulting daily death-toll tracker in the chiron every day, they wouldn’t know who to let do their thinking for them anymore.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

Pony said:


> What does it take for people to finally accept the fact that the so-called "vaccine" has absolutely no bearing on whether or not you'll catch/spread the bioweapon, and that it actually causes more harm than being infected with the bioweapon?
> 
> *COVID-19 Outbreak Reported on US Cruise Ship Despite Fully Vaccinated Passengers*
> 
> By Jack Phillips
> 
> December 5, 2021 Updated: December 5, 2021
> 
> 
> At least 10 cases of COVID-19 have been reported on a Norwegian Cruise Line ship disembarking in New Orleans, officials said.
> 
> All crew members and passengers are fully vaccinated for COVID-19, said the Louisiana Department of Health. The agency did not reveal the conditions of those who were infected with the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Outbreak Reported on US Cruise Ship Despite Fully Vaccinated Passengers
> 
> 
> At least 10 cases of COVID-19 have been reported on a Norwegian Cruise Line ship disembarking in New ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theepochtimes.com


I have covid right now and was fully vaxed , it is a lie that you can't get or spread covid if vaxed and it always has been


----------



## Danaus29

I said at the beginning the "vaccine" would just minimize symptoms enough that people would get and spread it because their symptoms would be so mild they wouldn't even know they had it. I said at the beginning that the mRNA therapy was designed so that you had to be exposed for your immune system to produce real anti-bodies. This world wide experiment needs to be shown for what it really is. The therapy keeps most people from getting severe symptoms. It does not prevent you from getting the virus. 

God help us if the medical community decides the mRNA therapy should be used to produce vaccines against serious diseases that have higher fatality rates.


----------



## DKJ

Nevada said:


> Courts have consistently ruled that the government DOES have that power. That power isn't being exercised for covid vaccines, but there is no question that they have that power.
> 
> *Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jacobson v. Massachusetts - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


You may want to view the detailed legal case analysis found on this site. Understanding Jacobson v. Massachusetts - Health Freedom Defense Fund 

For those that may find themselves in court before this is over, you may want to save a copy offline. It could come in handy. I hope those that are in court now are using this case to bolster their legal argument AGAINST any type of federal or state wide mandate. It also did not allow for forced vaccinations, simply a fine for noncompliance. 

I believe all the vaccine educated on this forum would be happy to have the current courts take the approach detailed in the cited case. Especially the part about local medical/health officials making decisions - not government officials. For the record, I am not antivaxx or vaccine hesitant - I am vaccine educated after having spent several thousand hours doing online research of clinical studies and data from countries around the world. Sadly, our media and government have chosen to ignore this data.

Of particular interest is the fact that in the cited case the Supreme Court was hearing a case regarding the *STATES*' right to pass legislation that allowed local health boards to mandate a vaccine, and that the local governments could enforce them - NOT the federal or state governments. The state in in question had not actually mandated everyone get vaccinated - they had just passed legislation that allowed local health boards to make and enforce a smallpox mandate. The court also noted the following based on the facts of the case before it... (Emphasis added to certain points)

[*]The Court noted that the legislature had allowed *local boards of health* to determine whether a vaccine was required. The edict was not state-wide, but was instituted at the local level based on facts as determined by members of the board of health living in the local community.
[*]The case involved the extremely deadly disease of smallpox, a disease with a fatality rate of 30-40%. The Court reasoned that “in every well-ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, _*under the pressure of great dangers*_, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand.” 197 U.S. at 30 (emphasis added).
[*]*Despite the acknowledged threat of smallpox, however, the Court specifically reserved the right to intervene on the side of individual rights in a future case if the facts warranted it. *
[/LIST]


> Smallpox being prevalent and increasing at Cambridge, the court would usurp the functions of another branch of government if it adjudged, as a matter of law, that the mode adopted under the sanction of the State, to protect the people at large was arbitrary and not justified by the necessities of the case.


Now we have the federal government overreaching it's limited constitutional authority to mandate nationwide medical treatments. These injections were not vaccines for the first 12-14 years while they were in development - they were gene therapy medical treatments. That's how the patent applications and SEC filings read. Although Fauci changed the definition other places, interestingly this is the definition of vaccination still in the Glossary of Definitions on the CDC web site as of today (Vaccine Glossary of Terms | CDC) It was (and probably still is) the legal definition in many states unless they were smart enough to amend their law after Fauci's change. 

Vaccine: Listen media icon[MP3]
A suspension of live (usually attenuated) or inactivated microorganisms (e.g. bacteria or viruses) or fractions thereof administered to induce immunity and prevent infectious diseases and their sequelae. 

The Covid "vaccinations" in no way meet this definition. They are an injection of genetic code which causes a person's body to produce spike proteins. The disease in question in the case you cited was smallpox which had a 30 to 40% death rate, unlike Covid 19 which still runs less than 2% in nearly every age category. 

Also this ruling in 1905 predates the medical experimentation horrors of the Nazis, and the resulting adoption of the Nuremberg Code, which requires, among other things, informed consent. Informed consent is impossible when the companies refuse to disclose what is actually in the injection and when the lack of long term human testing makes it impossible to disclose the potential health risks.


----------



## Nevada

DKJ said:


> I hope those that are in court now are using this case to bolster their legal argument AGAINST any type of federal or state wide mandate.


Federal, yes, but regardless of how the mandate was enforced (in the Jacobson case by local governments) it was nevertheless a statewide law.



DKJ said:


> It also did not allow for forced vaccinations, simply a fine for noncompliance.


Nobody is going to hold you down and jab you against your will. But be prepared to pay for covid tests, pay a higher health insurance rate, or even lose your job.


----------



## JeffreyD

Nevada said:


> Federal, yes, but regardless of how the mandate was enforced (in the Jacobson case by local governments) it was nevertheless a statewide law.
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody is going to hold you down and jab you against your will. But be prepared to pay for covid tests, pay a higher health insurance rate, or even lose your job.


Is that you goal, to make folks suffer? Sure sounds like it. That's a pretty sick thing to want to see happen.

Along those same lines, those who have been vaxed and are now spreaders, should be thrown in jail for life for contributing to the spread of this minor illness.

Eta: my wife, daughter, and myself all have covid.
#nothingburger daughter is over it and were mostly over it. No drugs needed. Took a few Tylenol.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Nevada said:


> …But be prepared to pay for covid tests, pay a higher health insurance rate, or even lose your job.


And you should prepare yourself to look up from your CNN-sponsored Two Minutes Hate, one day, and realize that you’re living in a place that used to be part of a nation called The United States of America.


----------



## Nevada

JeffreyD said:


> Is that you goal, to make folks suffer? Sure sounds like it. That's a pretty sick thing to want to see happen.


It's about saving lives. Maybe you remember something about the power to save American lives during the Bush administration. It wasn't that long ago.


----------



## nchobbyfarm

Always running home to blame Bush when all else fails. At least you are consistent.


----------



## JeffreyD

Nevada said:


> It's about saving lives. Maybe you remember something about the power to save American lives during the Bush administration. It wasn't that long ago.


Throw the vaxed spreaders in jail for life and we'll save a lot of lives. Let the rest of us build our natural immunity. Bush, ah yes, the old standy. Why didn't the democrats do something about it? You cant aay you didn't have the chance to fix what your party hates. Get ready for the sea change. You won't answer because you play stupid games.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

It is NOT about saving lives. Wow. You fell for that??

“Most people who get COVID-19 will survive. Of roughly 35.2 million confirmed COVID-19 cases in the United States, around 614,300 people, or 1.7%, have died, according to Johns Hopkins University’s mortality data as of Aug 6.”









PolitiFact - Why the COVID-19 survival rate is not over 99%


With COVID-19 infections surging in the United States because of the more contagious delta variant, some have downplayed




www.politifact.com


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

We, the non-vaxed, are:

1. the control group,
2. establishing NATURAL immunity for the herd,
3. focused on and fighting for the personal freedoms that are being usurped by the government.

We are supporting you in spite of yourselves.


----------



## wr

Nevada said:


> Federal, yes, but regardless of how the mandate was enforced (in the Jacobson case by local governments) it was nevertheless a statewide law.
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody is going to hold you down and jab you against your will. But be prepared to pay for covid tests, pay a higher health insurance rate, or even lose your job.



Westjet was forced by federal regulations to put all unvaccinated employees on permanent leave right before Christmas. They are cancelling dozens of flights per day due to a sudden employee shortage. 

Dozens of their fully vaccinated employees are currently being quarantined for covid infections. 

It seems to me, if the government is going to make something mandatory, it should be a bit more effective.


----------



## Nevada

JeffreyD said:


> Let the rest of us build our natural immunity.


Naturally acquired covid immunity doesn't seem to be working for the new variant.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Based on what information?

Source?


----------



## Nevada

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Based on what information?
> 
> Source?


I covered that in post #463.

*The first confirmed Omicron-related death in the US was reported Monday. The Texas man in his 50s was unvaccinated, had underlying health conditions and previously had been infected with Covid-19, officials said.*


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

One case? Underlying conditions?

That’s the basis for your claim?


----------



## Redlands Okie

Nevada said:


> Naturally acquired covid immunity doesn't seem to be working for the new variant.


Likly to work as well as the vaccines


----------



## Nevada

Redlands Okie said:


> Likly to work as well as the vaccines


Until we have an omicron-specific vaccine, that could very well be true.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO




----------



## JeffreyD

Nevada said:


> Naturally acquired covid immunity doesn't seem to be working for the new variant.


Did cnn tell you to think that? Im sure they did....you'll never learn, and we'll never believe anything you say because we know the source for your "information".
It sure does seem to be working. The science says so. Cnn is not big on science facts unless it fits their agenda, and yours. You do realize that our government has been lying to us sonce this covid started? Nah, maybe you don't because cnn told you everything they say is true. You should read Kennedys book about Fauci. He's betrayed America and needs to pay for his crimes against humanity. And his followers should be held accountable too.
Jail the vaxed and save lives...


----------



## no really

Nevada said:


> I covered that in post #463.
> 
> *The first confirmed Omicron-related death in the US was reported Monday. The Texas man in his 50s was unvaccinated, had underlying health conditions and previously had been infected with Covid-19, officials said.*


The question is did he die from covid or with covid. There is a difference, especially with those who have comorbities.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Nevada, if you haven’t taken a statistics class, now would be a good time.


----------



## mreynolds

Nevada said:


> I covered that in post #463.
> 
> *The first confirmed Omicron-related death in the US was reported Monday. The Texas man in his 50s was unvaccinated, had underlying health conditions and previously had been infected with Covid-19, officials said.*


My sister had her vax and booster last month. She tested positive for Covid today. 

1-1


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Nevada said:


> Naturally acquired covid immunity doesn't seem to be working for the new variant.





Redlands Okie said:


> Likly to work as well as the vaccines





Nevada said:


> Until we have an omicron-specific vaccine, that could very well be true.


----------



## Nevada

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> View attachment 104038


You find humor in Americans losing their lives in a pandemic?


----------



## JeffreyD

Nevada said:


> You find humor in Americans losing their lives in a pandemic?


I find humor in those that believe cnn is truthful and honest. How many have actually died FROM covid as apposed to WITH covid. There's a big difference. 
I don't expect you to answer that.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Nevada said:


> You find humor in Americans losing their lives in a pandemic?


No.

I find humor in the fact that even real clowns laugh at _you_.


----------



## GTX63

Nevada said:


> Until we have an omicron-specific vaccine, that could very well be true.


Honestly, between you and me, when is the last time you left your apartment?


----------



## GTX63

Nevada, you can log onto your computer and see street activity thru countless cams thruout the country. 
Have a neighbor take some photos on their phone the next time they take their dog for a walk and show you how the world outside is right now.
The sidewalks are not littered with bodies, well other than Frisco and LA, and Portland, anyway.

Have you considered the deaths we are experiencing thru gangs, meth, DUI, poor eating habits, alcohol, shootings, and domestic violence?
Why aren't you in the fetal position in the corner of your closet over those issues?
Why isn't Fauci returning your calls?
Why aren't those blue pills working anymore?


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

GTX63 said:


> Nevada, you can log onto your computer and see street activity thru countless cams thruout the country.
> Have a neighbor take some photos on their phone the next time they take their dog for a walk and show you how the world outside is right now.
> The sidewalks are not littered with bodies, well other than Frisco and LA, and Portland, anyway.
> 
> Have you considered the deaths we are experiencing thru gangs, meth, DUI, poor eating habits, alcohol, shootings, and domestic violence?
> Why aren't you in the fetal position in the corner of your closet over those issues?
> Why is Fauci returning your calls?
> Why aren't those blue pills working anymore?


Worse, @Nevada , fentanyl is now the #1 cause of death of 18-45 year-old Americans. It chiefly comes across the border that your buddy Brandon is intentionally leaving as open as he legally can… along with a bunch of folks infected with Covidaids.

Did CNN forget to mention that to you when they were feeding that last (hilarious!!) “_B…bu…but Bush…and… um… the patriot act_” non sequitur to you?


----------



## JeffreyD

Nevada said:


> You find humor in Americans losing their lives in a pandemic?


You trust the government. You should read up on Operation Sea Spray and do your own research on the 239 times the government secretly infected us with their experiments. You might learn something! You won't. You would rather keep your head buried deep in cnn sand.


----------



## HDRider

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Worse, @Nevada , fentanyl is now the #1 cause of death of 18-45 year-old Americans. It chiefly comes across the border that your buddy Brandon is intentionally leaving as open as he legally can… along with a bunch of folks infected with Covidaids.
> 
> Did CNN forget to mention that to you when they were feeding that last (hilarious!!) “_B…bu…but Bush…and… um… the patriot act_” non sequitur to you?


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

HDRider said:


> View attachment 104050


And just think, #4 on the list is really everyone that died with it.

Imagine where it would be on the list if #2 included everyone who died while in a motor vehicle (including, say, an ambulance), #7 included everyone who died who had cancer at the same time, and #9 included everyone who ever ate or drank something that was bad for their liver.

…not to mention if #4 _didn’t_ include everyone who died of drug overdose, car accident, heart disease, or liver disease who also happened to have Covidaids at the time.

Don’t tell, @Nevada, though. He’s got a CNN ticker to pray to every night.

…oh…wait. They took that down around January 20th this year.


----------



## barnbilder

Nevada keeps trying to evangelize his religion on us. Suggests that non believers should be held accountable and responsible, punished and held in contempt. This doesn't sound very constitutional.


----------



## Redlands Okie

Nevada said:


> You find humor in Americans losing their lives in a pandemic?


Chill out. Very low percentage.


----------



## poppy

Nevada said:


> *It's about saving lives.* Maybe you remember something about the power to save American lives during the Bush administration. It wasn't that long ago.


Then you should be celebrating Omicron. As of today, our average death rate is only 0.0031% of our average daily case rate. I am aware Omicron is surging which makes the case rate climb but from current data, Omicron will save a lot of lives from Delta.


----------



## Danaus29

Nevada said:


> I covered that in post #463.
> 
> *The first confirmed Omicron-related death in the US was reported Monday. The Texas man in his 50s was unvaccinated, had underlying health conditions and previously had been infected with Covid-19, officials said.*


The media frenzy has been one of the biggest spreaders of misinformation regarding the Houston case. The official cause of death has not been released, just the fact that he died _*WITH*_ covid.

_








In First Reported Omicron Death, Harris County Man Had Underlying Health Conditions


Although some media outlets characterized a Harris County man’s death as the first due to Omicron in the nation, the local health department reports underlying health issues and has not released the primary cause of death.




thetexan.news




_


----------



## mzgarden

_In a Thursday appearance on MSNBC, America's top Covid official, Dr. Anthony Fauci, admitted to a distinction between the number of children hospitalized *with Covid* as opposed to "*because of Covid.*"

"And what we mean by that: *If a child goes into the hospital, they automatically get tested for COVID and they get counted as a COVID-hospitalized individual, when, in fact, they may go in for a broken leg or appendicitis or something like that*. So it’s over counting the number of children who are, quote, hospitalized with COVID as opposed to because of COVID," said Fauci. 

Newsweek report_

Have to assume it's not only children.


----------



## Pony

Alice In TX/MO said:


> We, the non-vaxed, are:
> 
> 1. the control group,
> 2. establishing NATURAL immunity for the herd,
> 3. focused on and fighting for the personal freedoms that are being usurped by the government.
> 
> We are supporting you in spite of yourselves.


----------



## Nevada

mzgarden said:


> _In a Thursday appearance on MSNBC, America's top Covid official, Dr. Anthony Fauci, admitted to a distinction between the number of children hospitalized *with Covid* as opposed to "*because of Covid.*"
> 
> "And what we mean by that: *If a child goes into the hospital, they automatically get tested for COVID and they get counted as a COVID-hospitalized individual, when, in fact, they may go in for a broken leg or appendicitis or something like that*. So it’s over counting the number of children who are, quote, hospitalized with COVID as opposed to because of COVID," said Fauci. _


But that's not the only indicator. Overwhelmed funeral homes and the American Experience Mortality Rate falling, I believe got the first time ever, both point to a lot of deaths because of covid.


----------



## mzgarden

@Nevada, I believe (& you can choose to believe differently) that the rise in deaths is likely to be 'with Covid', as Dr. F indicates. Suicides are up, murders are up, depression and anxiety are up - all can contribute to a rise in deaths sometimes due to Covid, sometimes due to the fear, lockdowns, caused by the fears of Covid. If Dr. F is going to admit on MSNBC that children testing positive AFTER they are at the hospital, are being counted as a Covid hospitalization -then I think it's a reasonable guess that this is true with adults - dying of cancer, heart disease, overdoses, car accidents, gunshot wounds, etc. 

Of course, you're free to believe what you want - just as I am free to believe what I want. You will not change my mind and I will not change yours.


----------



## Nevada

mzgarden said:


> Suicides are up, murders are up, depression and anxiety are up - all can contribute to a rise in deaths sometimes due to Covid, sometimes due to the fear, lockdowns, caused by the fears of Covid


Those factors might have increased, but I'm skeptical that they are the main cause of the overall death rate.


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter

this all boils down to people being afraid to die.
the only thing for certain in this life is death.
and people seem terrified of it.... 
but probably wouldn't admit it


----------



## no really

mzgarden said:


> @Nevada, I believe (& you can choose to believe differently) that the rise in deaths is likely to be 'with Covid', as Dr. F indicates. Suicides are up, murders are up, depression and anxiety are up - all can contribute to a rise in deaths sometimes due to Covid, sometimes due to the fear, lockdowns, caused by the fears of Covid. If Dr. F is going to admit on MSNBC that children testing positive AFTER they are at the hospital, are being counted as a Covid hospitalization -then I think it's a reasonable guess that this is true with adults - dying of cancer, heart disease, overdoses, car accidents, gunshot wounds, etc.
> 
> Of course, you're free to believe what you want - just as I am free to believe what I want. You will not change my mind and I will not change yours.


And there are many who put off medical tests and treatments due to hospitals and doctors not seeing patients during lock downs. Fear killed many people.


----------



## barnbilder

Use Nevada as a reference. He believes very strongly in the Covid religion. He might even believe that adherence to his religion will grant him some form of immortality. Look at his comments and see the faith espoused. Now, consider what would happen if one of his priests cursed him or condemned him to death. Is he not at least as devout as islanders that can be the picture of health one minute, and dead the next, due to the scientifically documented voodoo death effect?

People of the Covid faith are driving those statistics, with the help of the media. The more fear and paranoia that can be generated, the more deadly the cold can be. Like Tinkerbell, as long as somebody believes, the monster is alive. So self prophesying, feedback loop statistics keep getting generated. 

At the same time, the people who are vulnerable, and who have always been vulnerable, are dying in record numbers. The people who have time and resources to participate in a silly cult, like Nevada, are actively killing people, with their silliness. And if he kills a guy that was in a car wreck, and couldn't get medical help in time, because of the economic collapse he helped to cause coupled with other silliness, and the guy happened to test positive for his Holy Disease, then that statistic goes directly into the self prophesying "AHA" column of statistics that he uses as holy relics.


----------



## barnbilder

The overall death rate should be rising exponentially, due to population dynamics. You see there was this crazy guy that decided to take over the world and gas a bunch of people. A lot of our ancestors went to stop him. After seeing some of the stuff they saw, when they got home, they held their wives and girlfriends tightly and often. Some of them even imported wives and girlfriends to hold tightly and often. As a result of this trauma induced fraternization, and several advancements to the field of medicine, and industrial advancements that helped the economy, there was a stretch of time that folks had a lot of children. Those children are reaching daisy fertilizing age at this time.

It wouldn't take a real good crystal ball reader to prophesy bodies, bodies everywhere. An uptick in mortality was a concrete given. Politicians using it to weaponize a cold bug on a global scale was somewhat unforeseen, but the cult followers that were so easily duped, again, fall into the list of usual suspects.


----------



## Vjk

mzgarden said:


> @Nevada,
> 
> Of course, you're free to believe what you want - just as I am free to believe what I want. You will not change my mind and I will not change yours.


Add to that the aging of Americans, the illegals flooding the country with all kinds of diseases, not just covid, The increasing lifestyle of death. And still, they have to make up stats and redefine everything just to blame it on covid. 
Seriously, who wouldn't rather get $20 an hour to sit on their tuckus than get $10 to haul carcasses around?


----------



## Danaus29

I lost a friend to cancer last year. That friend might have had a chance if they could have seen a doctor when they first had symptoms. But with lock-downs and telehealth visits that essential time frame passed before they could be seen in-person.

There will be an increase in deaths from other causes because of the delays in early preventive treatment.


----------



## Nevada

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> this all boils down to people being afraid to die.
> the only thing for certain in this life is death.
> and people seem terrified of it....
> but probably wouldn't admit it


But after all, we have a survival instinct.


----------



## GTX63

Nevada said:


> But after all,we have a survival instinct.


The instinct to survive isn't the same as a phobia of death.


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter

Nevada said:


> But after all, we have a survival instinct.


And the irony, I suppose, is that in this day and age people who are following their own personal survival instinct are told they need to instead do what they are told or loose their permission to *_* .


----------



## ryanthomas

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> And just think, #4 on the list is really everyone that died with it.


Are you sure about that? They only included about 31,000 deaths total. I think they already took the with/from factor into account and didn't include any of the other hundreds of thousands the officials are counting.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

ryanthomas said:


> Are you sure about that? They only included about 31,000 deaths total. I think they already took the with/from factor into account and didn't include any of the other hundreds of thousands the officials are counting.


The metric was just 18-45 year-olds. It’s the next demographic up in age where the numbers start getting big.

I’d bet that the actual American (_ETA: 18-45 year-olds_) deaths from Covid was under 1,000… well under 1,000.


----------



## ryanthomas

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> The metric was just 18-45 year-olds.


Ah, I missed that.


----------



## Ironbutt

Nevada said:


> Careful. You're criticising the Trump vaccines. If you were a politician he would have you primaried.


Sorry Mack you are wrong. Fauci a employee of government recommended to trump at the beginning to go the route he did. Taking false recommendations from a deep state operative like Fauci doesn't place the blame on Trump. The objective of the china flu was to unseat Trump and it worked sadly..


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Ironbutt said:


> Sorry Mack you are wrong. Fauci a employee of government recommended to trump at the beginning to go the route he did. Taking false recommendations from a deep state operative like Fauci doesn't place the blame on Trump. The objective of the china flu was to unseat Trump and it worked sadly..


I wouldn’t put it past the globalists to have done something like Covidaids specifically to unseat someone who committed the sin of winning an election that they weren’t supposed to, but I honestly don’t think that’s what happened. The evidence seems to be pointing to something that, depending on how you look at it, may be less or even more insidious, but is every bit as dishonest and evil.

The developing chain of events seems to indicate that this is what happened:

Fauci, and the rest of the US medical deepstate either wanted an avenue to prepare for a future outbreak such as Covidaids, or (if you’re so inclined) outright wanted to have a bug like Covidaids on-hand for future geopolitical utility. Either way, the gain-of-function work needed to create it couldn’t be done in the US, in the open. So, despite the rejection of DARPA, Fauci paid China to do it (proven) and sent us the bill.

China, being so Chinese, screwed up the lab and let it escape.

Then, China, again, being so _very_ Chinese, decided that they didn’t want to be left holding the economic bag, intentionally let the virus spread as aggressively as possible before trying to mitigate it in their own country. Regardless if it was due to their own ineptitude, Fauci bought it, so why should China’s economy be the only one harmed?

So, Fauci, seeing his pet bug in the news, took the opportunity to live out the game he’d been playing since he was a little boy; _Dr. Napoleon Mengele M.D_. 

While Dr. Napoleon Mengele was downplaying the severity of his pet bug, the corporate media played along until it was time to drop the hammer, at which point they played their full hand against the bad orange man, and founded the Church of Covidia(tm). 

China got paid, despite screwing up the entire world.

Fauci got limitless power, despite having no idea what he’s doing.

CNN got rid of the bad orange man.

Karens get to Karen… in overdrive.

It’s a win, win, win…. _win.. can I see the manager?_


----------



## wr

Nevada said:


> But after all, we have a survival instinct.


That's true but at no time in my life have we ever believed we could save every human being. I asked you one time about the human casualties associated with lockdowns (lost homes, businesses, lack of access to diagnostics/medical treatments, drug abuse, suicides and domestic abuse) and you simply shrugged them off as collateral damage or bad things happening to good people. 

You strongly advocate for mandated vaccinations and yet, I offered a solid example of a business comprised of fully vaccinated, surrounded by fully vaccinated customers who is no longer able to conduct business effictively because of infections. As always, you ignored my question. Why is that?

Our government let over 1600 health care workers go because they refuse to vaccinate, yet there is currently strong discussion to follow other provinces by letting infected vaccinated health care workers continue to work, as long as their symptoms are mild. Is that the safe environment you spoke of?


----------



## Nevada

wr said:


> I asked you one time about the human casualties associated with lockdowns (lost homes, businesses, lack of access to diagnostics/medical treatments, drug abuse, suicides and domestic abuse) and you simply shrugged them off as collateral damage or bad things happening to good people.


I wasn't nearly as heartless as you make me out to be. I just pointed out that more people would likely die from covid without mitigation measures than would die as a result of the mitigation measures.


----------



## HDRider

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> more insidious


Much more insidious


----------



## barnbilder

Nevada said:


> I wasn't nearly as heartless as you make me out to be. I just pointed out that more people would likely die from covid without mitigation measures than would die as a result of the mitigation measures.


Have mitigation measures prevented anyone from getting covid? Not delayed, but prevented. Everybody is going to get it. Most who haven't been hiding under a rock have had multiple flavors of it already. Many have tested positive multiple times, even when subjected to testing where nobody actually rubs a swab in a human orifice.


----------



## JeffreyD

Nevada said:


> I wasn't nearly as heartless as you make me out to be. I just pointed out that more people would likely die from covid without mitigation measures than would die as a result of the mitigation measures.


Yes, you were, still are. You take great joy in the phrase "i told you so". Even though your wrong about most everything. Never forget your moto...
So wrong about so much so often.


----------



## painterswife

barnbilder said:


> Have mitigation measures prevented anyone from getting covid? Not delayed, but prevented. Everybody is going to get it. Most who haven't been hiding under a rock have had multiple flavors of it already. Many have tested positive multiple times, even when subjected to testing where nobody actually rubs a swab in a human orifice.


Reducing deaths from covid has always been the goal. Mitigation slowed down infections so that more ways to prevent deaths could be achieved.


----------



## GTX63

painterswife said:


> Reducing deaths from covid has always been the goal.


No it has not.


----------



## Nevada

barnbilder said:


> Have mitigation measures prevented anyone from getting covid? Not delayed, but prevented.


I believe so, yes.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

painterswife said:


> Reducing deaths from covid has always been the goal.


----------



## barnbilder

Ok. List one covid case that has been prevented by mitigation. Also, list one person that died with Covid that wasn't scheduled to die.


----------



## barnbilder

Nevada said:


> I believe so, yes.


Believe. The hallmark of faith. I do not share your faith. All I see is a bunch of religious ceremony with no real connection to reality. Wearing the religious icons, the holy masks of the covidians, has not shown to have any impact. The holy sacrament vaccine only shows improvement to the faithful. Following the commandments, only beneficial to the faithful, who ignore the fact that their high priests disobey the commandments that they have had their scribes interpret to the faithful.


----------



## painterswife

Every person is scheduled to die. Most medical care is about putting that day off as far as possible. If you don't believe that mitigation has saved lives then I can't be bothered to provide proof.


----------



## GTX63

Why start now?


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

painterswife said:


> Every person is scheduled to die. Most medical care is about putting that day off as far as possible. If you don't believe that mitigation has saved lives then I can't be bothered to provide proof.


You can’t be “bothered to” because you couldn’t do it if you wanted to.

There is absolutely NO WAY that someone can prove how many were “saved” because we don’t even know how many died. Any statistical analysis of lives saved will have to start from the number that died, and the deacons of your church _intentionally_ inflated those numbers. Trying to come up with even estimates of the “lives saved” would be like trying to win a game of _guess the jelly beans_, after the beans were eaten, the jar was smashed, and someone burned the sheet of paper on which they wrote the dimensions of the jar. 

One day, you Covidians are going to have to acknowledge that we really don’t know how bad Covidaids actually was, and it’s because your pastors lied.


----------



## HDRider

painterswife said:


> Every person is scheduled to die. Most medical care is about putting that day off as far as possible. If you don't believe that mitigation has saved lives then I can't be bothered to provide proof.


_"Everyday, people are dying who have never died before." 

"Everyday, people are dying who did not expect to die this soon."_


----------



## barnbilder

COVID As A Religion


I think it was Arch-P who asked me a while ago to compare the Covid mania with religion. Never had the time. But, here’s a darn good article showing it is. (Notice, I said “darn&#822…



www.theburningplatform.com





Read this. Then tell me that you are not practicing a religion. Then I can tell you that you are practicing a religion AND lying to yourself about practicing a religion.


----------



## Nevada

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> There is absolutely NO WAY that someone can prove how many were “saved” because we don’t even know how many died.


Kind of like proving that losing constitutional rights saved lives from terror attacks.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Yes.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Nevada said:


> Kind of like proving that losing constitutional rights saved lives from terror attacks.


I don’t know. Why don’t you go and find someone who believes that the Patriot Act saved lives, and come back and tell us what they said? 

You’re going to have to go outside of your bubble to do it, since I’ve met exactly zero people on this forum who support the Patriot Act, and you’re not going to find any love for it on CNN. It’ll be good for you to get out of your comfort zone, though. Meet some new people. See some new places. It could be fun. 

Then, after you report back on it, you can finally shut up about the damned Patriot Act, and stop implying that anyone here is in favor of it just because they don’t freebase CNN’s every quivering word.


----------



## Nevada

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I don’t know. Why don’t you go and find someone who believes that the Patriot Act saved lives, and come back and tell us what they said?


They smugly tell us that terror attacks have been prevented but they can't give us examples because it's top secret. We just have to trust them.


----------



## HDRider

Nevada said:


> They smugly tell us that terror attacks have been prevented but they can't give us examples because it's top secret. *We just have to trust them.*


You trust the Deep State?


----------



## Mish

Nevada said:


> They smugly tell us that terror attacks have been prevented but they can't give us examples because it's top secret. We just have to trust them.


If you can see that equivocation, surely you can see a corollary to what is going on with Covid?

Trust them or trust your lying eyes.


----------



## GTX63

Nevada said:


> They smugly tell us that terror attacks have been prevented but they can't give us examples because it's top secret. We just have to trust them.


Who is "they"?


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

GTX63 said:


> Who is "they"?


Exactly what I was going to ask.

So, as a follow-up; are they on Homesteading Today? Are they the ones you keep referring to as the ones who support the Patriot Act? Or is that just a strawman you like to poke at for comfort?


----------



## TripleD

I've not posted on this thread until now. Can somebody tell me how deer are testing positive for Covid??? I saw it on the internet so it has to be true!!!


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

TripleD said:


> I've not posted on this thread until now. Can somebody tell me how deer are testing positive for Covid??? I saw it on the internet so it has to be true!!!


They spoke to this a month or so ago on a Joe Rogan or Bret Weinstein pod cast.
I'll try and find the episode.
There are several animals that are carrying it now, this is why they now believe it is here to stay, it is out in the wild.
If it had remained only with the human population we had a chance of making it go extinct like TB or Polio.

Here you go, this appers to be a good report on the covid in deer:


----------



## mreynolds

TripleD said:


> I've not posted on this thread until now. Can somebody tell me how deer are testing positive for Covid??? I saw it on the internet so it has to be true!!!


I'm sure they go to the COVID testing site like everyone else. 

Except there are hardly any left anymore. If the government really wants to keep a handle on this you would think they would still have them around.


----------



## GTX63

TripleD said:


> I've not posted on this thread until now. Can somebody tell me how deer are testing positive for Covid??? I saw it on the internet so it has to be true!!!


They aren't masking?
Expect the numbers to be higher for anti jabber Bucks.
I also wouldn't put much into all the roadkill testing positive after the fact either.


----------



## TripleD

GTX63 said:


> They aren't masking?
> Expect the numbers to be higher for anti jabber Bucks.
> I also wouldn't put much into all the roadkill testing positive after the fact either.


I haven't been breathing around the live ones. Just the one's in the cooler...


----------



## barnbilder

TripleD said:


> I've not posted on this thread until now. Can somebody tell me how deer are testing positive for Covid??? I saw it on the internet so it has to be true!!!


When I learned of this, and of infections in mink on mink farms, ferrets, tigers at zoos, I realized that, from a scientific perspective, there was no reasonable need, or expectation for protection, from a mass vaccination of humans. There is a lot of wildlife that could never be vaccinated, that will serve as a disease vector, allowing for variants that can't be prevented by vaccine. Continuously, forever. Coming to this realization, and seeing the demonization of those who would question the vaccine, I came to see this entire spectacle for what it is. A religion. Meets all definitions of religion.


----------



## HDRider

barnbilder said:


> I came to see this entire spectacle for what it is. A religion. Meets all definitions of religion.


Who, or what, is the deity?


----------



## barnbilder

Covid in wildlife vectors is very old news. Wildlife agencies have been advising wildlife workers of possible cross contamination risks since the beginning. There were animals testing positive since almost the time that tests were available. I was mentioning the deer testing about a year ago, but I guess I don't have a podcast, so just some random guy that has worked in the field of wildlife biology his whole life isn't as credible as Rogan. But I get e-mails, sometimes letters, and converse with biologists at state, local, and federal levels almost daily, as well as the actual experts that are good enough to work in the private sector.

Seeing every rule of biology broken, questioned, or dismissed, throughout this debacle, has been very telling. I was even quite surprised when a colleague, holding the title of DVM, who is very, very, liberal, started turning against the establishment very early on. The whole thing is science fiction. There are very real elements, but just because a virus is "new" it can't defy laws of physics, genetics, biology, and all known science. It's ridiculous. The only thing that can defy all known scientific logic, is a religion, which is what this is. Understanding how religion can impact human biology is very important when trying to wrap your head around this thing.


----------



## ryanthomas

HDRider said:


> Who, or what, is the deity?


"Science"


----------



## barnbilder

HDRider said:


> Who, or what, is the deity?


Does there have to be a deity? Was there a deity involved when the ancient Mesoamericans dealt with excess populations of unruly peasants by sacrificing them on the steps of the temple? Was there a deity involved when the current ruling class of North Korea proclaimed themselves sent from on high? Was there a deity involved when the Spaish conquistadors ransacked multiple civilizations to secure gold for "the church"? Was there a diety involved when those guys flew planes into buildings in New York? Was there a deity involved when witch doctors performed a hex on otherwise healthy people that fell ill and died within days? You can add to the list if you wish. I see a lot of profound faith, but not much clear evidence of an actual deity in any of these instances.


----------



## HDRider

barnbilder said:


> Does there have to be a deity? Was there a deity involved when the ancient Mesoamericans dealt with excess populations of unruly peasants by sacrificing them on the steps of the temple? Was there a deity involved when the current ruling class of North Korea proclaimed themselves sent from on high? Was there a deity involved when the Spanish conquistadors ransacked multiple civilizations to secure gold for "the church"? Was there a deity involved when those guys flew planes into buildings in New York? Was there a deity involved when witch doctors performed a hex on otherwise healthy people that fell ill and died within days? You can add to the list if you wish. I see a lot of profound faith, but not much clear evidence of an actual deity in any of these instances.


I think the answer is , "Yes" to all of those. A deity is a manifestation of faith, not evidence.


----------



## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa

HDRider said:


> Who, or what, is the deity?


Monsignor Fauchi?


----------



## Nevada

Mish said:


> If you can see that equivocation, surely you can see a corollary to what is going on with Covid?
> 
> Trust them or trust your lying eyes.


The difference here is that it has the backing of the scientific community. Post 9/11 extra-constitutional measures were only backed up by governmental agencies.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO




----------



## JeffreyD

Nevada said:


> The difference here is that it has the backing of the scientific community. Post 9/11 extra-constitutional measures were only backed up by governmental agencies.


And your party had the ability to change things, many, many times, yet they did nothing. You do realize that don't you?
Nah, you probably don't because the hate is so strong. Smh...


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Science backed community? Who?

Oh. The ones at the FDA. Paid for by the pharmaceutical companies.


----------



## GTX63

The CDC and the FDA are compromised, corrupted and politicized.
We are way past that discussion.
No one who is a proponent of either agency has been silenced, yet there is extensive and solid evidence of their attempts to craft a message and eliminate any opposing viewpoint by professionals, including leaders in the fields of medicine and molecular science.
There are experts with extensive qualifications offering deep analysis with factual data to support their opinions against this fiasco vs what? Talking points and terminology such as "the science" and "data"?


----------



## GTX63

Nevada said:


> The difference here is that it has the backing of the scientific community. Post 9/11 extra-constitutional measures were only backed up by governmental agencies.


No, no it doesn't. 
"A" community, not "the" community, expelled anyone from their group that would not go along with their message and then announced they were in unanimous agreement.


----------



## Pony

barnbilder said:


> <snip>
> . Coming to this realization, and seeing the demonization of those who would question the vaccine, I came to see this entire spectacle for what it is. A religion. Meets all definitions of religion.


Is it a religion, or is it a cult?

I'm leaning to the latter.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

All in one’s perspective.


----------



## barnbilder

The only difference between a religion and a cult is a matter of popularity. This religious movement seems pretty popular. Religions might seem harmless, even beneficial. The people that co-opt those religions, for power, money and the power of money, are never beneficial. As you can see from the Reverend Nevada, this religion is particularly dangerous, because it's practitioners are trying to pass their evil cult off as science.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

GTX63 said:


> Nevada said:
> 
> 
> 
> The difference here is that it has the backing of the scientific community. Post 9/11 extra-constitutional measures were only backed up by governmental agencies.
> 
> 
> 
> No, no it doesn't.
> "A" community, not "the" community, expelled anyone from their group that would not go along with their message and then announced they were in unanimous agreement.
Click to expand...

What do you think the odds are of @Nevada finding the irony in his own statement?

The “scientific community” he refers to in the former is specifically and exclusively the ones toeing the narrative issued and enforced by the “governmental agencies” he vilifies in the latter.


----------



## GTX63

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> What do you think the odds are of @Nevada finding the irony in his own statement?
> 
> The “scientific community” he refers to in the former is specifically and exclusively the ones toeing the narrative issued and enforced by the “governmental agencies” he vilifies in the latter.


His statement is just a microcosm of his commitment to a lie.
I think if he reread his post, if honest, he would see the oopsie.
Pride, fear of embarrassment, a stiff neck and allegiance to a thing will prevent him from ever changing course.

But hey, in the end, do what you wanna do, be who you wanna be. I'm not sending anyone to your door.


----------



## Pony

barnbilder said:


> The only difference between a religion and a cult is a matter of popularity. This religious movement seems pretty popular. Religions might seem harmless, even beneficial. The people that co-opt those religions, for power, money and the power of money, are never beneficial. As you can see from the Reverend Nevada, this religion is particularly dangerous, because it's practitioners are trying to pass their evil cult off as science.


Actually, no, there is a lot more difference between religion and cults.

A religion is generally considered helpful, and a force for good.

Cults, on the other hand, are defined as "a system or group of people who practice excessive devotion to a figure, object, or belief system, typically following a charismatic leader. The term is commonly connected with highly unorthodox religious sects that take part in sinister practices and demonstrations. In some cases, this is true. However, cults can be non-religious too, with many examples popping up throughout recent history."

Cults are authoritarian, often encouraging/forcing/manipulating people to separate from friends and family who disagree with their ideology. Sure do see a lot of that these days...


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Pony said:


> Cults are authoritarian, often encouraging/forcing/manipulating people to separate from friends and family who disagree with their ideology. Sure do see a lot of that these days...


Did you mean to start that paragraph with “_Both religions and…_”?

Or, are you making an unspoken distinction between religions and churches? I ask because everything that you said with a negative connotation toward cults applies to most churches, in my experience, as well.


----------



## barnbilder

If it's not the one true religion, it's a cult. What the one true religion is is subjective.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

We are going to go off the deep end on this one, I fear.

The “Christian religion” has killed and maimed and abused an awful lot of people in just the last two thousand years or so. Their minions have destroyed cultures, killed babies, and been corrupted by power in the “name of God.”


----------



## barnbilder

It is too frightening for some to consider that organized religion is inherently evil. The founding fathers realized it. A state endorsed religion, like the holy church of the exalted covidaids, is extremely dangerous. We must govern by logic and reason, not feelings and beliefs. Else we have a stupid and unprecedented response to a crisis that costs people their lives and damages an entire generation, like the one we are experiencing now.


----------



## Pony

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Did you mean to start that paragraph with “_Both religions and…_”?
> 
> Or, are you making an unspoken distinction between religions and churches? I ask because everything that you said with a negative connotation toward cults applies to most churches, in my experience, as well.


I am looking at my post, and cannot find the "both religions and..."


----------



## Pony

Alice In TX/MO said:


> We are going to go off the deep end on this one, I fear.
> 
> The “Christian religion” has killed and maimed and abused an awful lot of people in just the last two thousand years or so. Their minions have destroyed cultures, killed babies, and been corrupted by power in the “name of God.”


So has Islam. Molech worship. I'm sure there are many more.

Looking to find which "christian minions" have visited the hatefilled havoc you attribute to them.

In today's world, communist/socialist countries are torturing, imprisoning, and murdering those who follow the God of the Bible.

Following Yeshua HaMeshiach does not include things like the Spanish Inquisistion et al.

I'm curious to see what truly orthodox Messiah-following groups have done to destroy others.


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter

HDRider said:


> Who, or what, is the deity?


the devil.


----------



## HDRider

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> the devil.


The Greatest Trick the Devil Ever Pulled Was Convincing the World He Didn’t Exist


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter

HDRider said:


> The Greatest Trick the Devil Ever Pulled Was Convincing the World He Didn’t Exist


totally and all the confusion - loves confusion, fear, greed, hatred, doubt.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Pony. Do not take my disdain for the so called Christian religion personally. It is my disdain, based on my understanding of history.

I do not have to give equal time to the horrors caused by other religions. I was not advocating a different religion. I did not claim any other religion is better. You know their histories.

The concept of “orthodox” Christian religions is a no-go for me. Many translations and two thousand years have altered the message. Study the early history of what we call the bible. It’s a collection of stories and documents, translated and retranslated to meet the agenda of the organization funding the translation.

Belief in a higher force is crucially important to a functioning society. I believe. You believe. Most of the folks on this forum believe.

Humans who form themselves into groups labeled religions are not a good representation of the benevolence of a higher power. The many answers to prayers give evidence that shines brighter than any organization that claims to be a religion.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Pony said:


> I am looking at my post, and cannot find the "both religions and..."


So you don’t think that, historically, many/most (all?) “legitimate” religions have been “_authoritarian, often encouraging/forcing/manipulating people to separate from friends and family who disagree with their ideology_”?


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Pony. Do not take my disdain for the so called Christian religion personally. It is my disdain, based on my understanding of history.
> 
> I do not have to give equal time to the horrors caused by other religions. I was not advocating a different religion. I did not claim any other religion is better. You know their histories.
> 
> The concept of “orthodox” Christian religions is a no-go for me. Many translations and two thousand years have altered the message. Study the early history of what we call the bible. It’s a collection of stories and documents, translated and retranslated to meet the agenda of the organization funding the translation.
> 
> Belief in a higher force is crucially important to a functioning society. I believe. You believe. Most of the folks on this forum believe.
> 
> Humans who form themselves into groups labeled religions are not a good representation of the benevolence of a higher power. The many answers to prayers give evidence that shines brighter than any organization that claims to be a religion.


I make a distinction between religion and churches. Maybe there is a better word for this comparison than “religion”, but I considered that and don’t think “spirituality” is necessarily correct either.

Anyway, I think the majority of religions have been based on generally positive principles, at least within their fair historical context. Churches, on the other hand, are the gross manipulation of religions, with the goal of granting a select group of people in positions of power. If a religion were a political ideology, its associated church is the political party.

For example, I do think that the vast majority of people with left-leaning ideologies have, despite being malconsidered, a foundation of belief in wanting the world to be a better place. Their associated political party, on the other hand; well, you all know my thoughts on sorting out good Marxists from the bad.

Likewise, Catholicism, despite being overly ritualistic and prone to dramatic symbolism, is an overwhelmingly kind and positive ideology. The Vatican, on the other hand, should be treated like the sovereign nation it wants to be when it grows up, and sanctioned accordingly for its past and present crimes against humanity. If the western world was invading nations and trying despots to clean up the world, the Pope should have stretched the rope well ahead of Saddam Hussein.


----------



## HDRider

Well said Monkey

I wish more people saw it that way.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

GunMonkey, that’s an excellent analysis.

The Catholic Church should, in my opinion, be abolished, and the pedophile priests drawn and quartered in public venues.

I am sure there are other churches that have failed their members, but the Catholic church has privately advocated child abuse (by their culture) and protected the abusers. I have no tolerance for that.


----------



## barnbilder

It's not the religion, but the lengths that people will go to torment other human beings in the name of that religion, that is important here. You can find stellar examples of benevolence and atrocities in any of them, and it is because of the failings of humans. 

What we see specifically, in the holy church of the covidaids, is the same thing we have seen mirrored many times. In the name of religion, the fervent followers are willing to deem others "less worthy" of benevolence. or even being treated like a human being, because they are not true believers. Exchange "antivaxxer" (hate speech) with infidel. Exchange baptism with vaccination. Exchange vaccine passport with confession. Exchange athletes and children dying from heart complications for sacrifice. Exchange the cancelling of anyone who asks important questions with heresy trials. Look at the unwavering loyalty from followers in the face of scientific discrepancies. See a pattern yet?


----------



## HDRider

barnbilder said:


> See a pattern yet?


The pattern is that people want something to believe in.

Your analogy is not wrong.


----------



## barnbilder

Belief is powerful. It can kill you (read about voodoo death on wikipedia before they erase it). It can also convince you to kill other people. Sometimes it just convinces you to stand idly by while other people are killed. Those are bad things, but belief is not bad. It can also heal.


----------



## barnbilder

Belief, thanks to the media's contribution to the voodoo death effect, is probably the only thing different about this particular respiratory virus. Belief, thanks to the opposite effect, which we know as the placebo effect, is probably the only thing keeping the vaccinated form being hospitalized in more numbers than they are. The list of thrice jabbed notables on the infected list clearly shows that the vaccine does little to protect from infection. Placebo effect keeps people from going to the hospital with it. If you just get a cold and don't get tested, you spend a couple days trying to birth a lung, but if you don't have that confirmation that this is the bad disease that kills everybody that gets it (if their comorbidities match the other minuscule percentage of people that die from it), you will be fine. Positive attitude always makes for a better prognosis. Positive attitude won't help overweight 90 year old ex smoker with untreated heart disease and diabetes though.


----------



## HDRider

barnbilder said:


> Belief is powerful. It can kill you (read about voodoo death on wikipedia before they erase it). It can also convince you to kill other people. Sometimes it just convinces you to stand idly by while other people are killed. Those are bad things, but belief is not bad. It can also heal.


Think psychosis might be a better word.

_Psychosis is an abnormal condition of the mind that results in difficulties determining what is real and what is not real. Symptoms may include delusions and hallucinations, among other features. Additional symptoms are incoherent speech and behavior that is inappropriate for a given situation._​


----------



## barnbilder

Dr. Malone, as well as helping invent mRNA vaccines, helped invent the term "mass formation psychosis" . I believe it fits very well.


----------

