# German Shepherd as guard dog for human family



## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

I wasn't sure I this is the best place to post this but I figure being dog related it would be safe. 

We are getting what will be a 7.5 week old female German Shepherd for Christmas. The plan is to have her be an inside guardian who is raised around the other critters so she won't grow up to eat the goats. 

I haven't been around inside dogs before but it seems crate training is all the rage. What is the consensus on this ? We had small dogs off and on when I was a kid but that was 30+ years ago and we never had a crate. Is this a good idea for an inside dog who will grow to be fairly big ? I really don't want a dog box in my house.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Well, personally, I've never crate trained a dog. I house train them. Ya do your business outside, and you behave in the house.
Outside is for potty breaks, and rough housing.
I've had three GS, and all three were well behaved inside, they are crazy smart, and learn the rules fairly quickly.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

In times past the only dog (inside and outside) I would have was a full bred GS. I discovered, by raising them "loose" in the house, they become more "sensitive" as to how to behave. (I would never use a crate as I believe it stifles a dog's learning.) 

House-breaking a GSD was rather difficult; but once done, forever done; and if I timed the outing in late evenings correctly for that dog's age I could simply attach a leash to him/her in late evenings in such a way that kept her from getting off her bed during the night. (A good dog will not spoil its own bed.)

As for teaching a GSD to get along with goats, the fact that a GSD has a prey drive must be considered. Let me show, again, my GSD with goats. Her name was Cherokee, she was an "alpha" and she was raised "loose" in the house while a puppy (even when baby "bottle-fed" goats had to be brought in for awhile). She was taught not to use her prey drive on goats and/fowl with the help of an older dog (a "mix" with shepherd, lab & chow) as well as by watching her closely as she free-ranged outdoors with them periodically. As you can see she was great with other animals. (That baby goat snuggled up to her in one picture is the same "buck" a few months later Cherokee is guarding; and is now my herd buck weighing 250 lbs.) Cherokee learned to "play" with young goats by running "with" them, jumping up on an old oil drum that was laying on its side and pushing off young goats playing "king of the hill" games. (I lost her a few years back to snake bite.)


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## Jennifer L. (May 10, 2002)

Just want to say you are the LUCKIEST people ever, to get a GSD puppy for Christmas. 

I've never crate trained, either, at least not seriously, and I've had four GSDs. When I say not seriously I mean that they have been crated when they are a puppy and there's no one in the house because I'm off to town for a few hours . And it probably doesn't hurt them to at least understand that a crate isn't bad for when they might be at the vet's overnight for any procedure that they undergo (neutering, for example), or traveling in the back of a car or truck. But after puppyhood and they've learned their place in the world, they don't see a crate again in my house.


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## Brighton (Apr 14, 2013)

I did crate train my house guardian dog, mostly, because I was working full-time off the farm and needed to actually sleep, meaning I didn't need to get woken up by a puppy tugging a leash or chewing through the cord for my cell phone charger, TV, or wake up to a half eaten couch or chair, books, legs of chairs and all the rest that can happen?

And even though she was crated, which I honestly think is best, she is very very a tune to her surroundings, noises that shouldn't be heard, etc. She was crated next to my bed for the first 6 months of her life, then I moved her to a bigger crate in the living room, which she stayed in at night and any time I had to leave the farm for over 15 or 20 minutes for the first two years of her life, but now she is 5 years old and is fine not crated.

She is a Great Pyrenees mix by the way.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Crate training is always a good idea imo even if you end up not crating much.

It's a good tool for you and the dog to have. We were once stuck away from home later than we planned and our dog became distressed..she chewed and ingested some carpet from anxiety and needed 2 life saving surgeries and nearly 3 weeks in doggie ICU

That was about 7 years ago and she's always crated when we go out now..both of them are, and without bedding. I never want to go through that again.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

motdaugrnds - thanks for sharing Cherokee's story. I thought we could raise her from an early age to be safe around the goats ... I'm so glad to see that is it possible. 
And I'm sorry she is gone. She seems like she was a really special pup.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

Jennifer L. said:


> Just want to say you are the LUCKIEST people ever, to get a GSD puppy for Christmas.


I'm pretty excited about this, too. My SO was a k9 handler for years and years and while getting a big inside dog was my idea (never say never) SO is so stinking excited to be getting her. On Christmas morning we plan to take the puppy, Nala, into the girl's room and put her in bed with them then run back to bed and pretend that Santa had just left. DD2 is only 4 so she might not remember it when she is older but I'm pretty sure Paisley will.  

I guess she will need her own space for the times we are out longer than expected but I don't want a grown dog in a crate. Still there is time to work all that out - I guess we will see what works best.


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## Brighton (Apr 14, 2013)

Well, when she eats your dining room table or sets your house on fire, or shocks half her jaw off and spends a week at the vet because she chewed through an electric cord, don't say I didn't warn you!


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Babygates are a fine substitute for crates. I think crates are abused and overused, and frankly for large or giant breeds are hazard for proper joint development (think about this, any physical therapist will tell you that bones, and thus the ligaments supporting them, grow thru weight bearing).... and I really really think that people who come to rely on crates underreport the amount of time their dogs spend in them....

(I have no idea why they are such GOSPEL for the much of the dog crowd-- I have had dogs for 41 years and never crated, well we had one with the DOOR OFF in our living room for the dogs' convenience for several years but that is not what the Crate crowd is endorsing)....

Mainly I am so vehement cause I come from the city, and honestly many dogs are crated for 6, 7, 9 hours a day Not OK in my book.

Anyways, yeah, you can do anything you need to do without shutting that door on the crate....


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## anita_fc (May 24, 2008)

I am a convert to the judicious use of crates. I too HATE seeing them overused, but in a household with small children the crate can provide a safe haven for a pup at mealtimes or nap time. 

My biggest reason for recommending crate training is to reduce stress on the dog at times when he has to be caged - such as at the vet or groomer. Strange places can be upsetting to dogs, and if they see the crate as a safe den, it really helps to reduce their stress.

Anita from Idaho


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

I agree that the crate is a great tool if used properly, _especially_ for a puppy.

Can keep them out of trouble and become a 'safe place'.
My dogs often laid/lay in their crates of their own volition, that lets you know you've used it correctly.

Of course crates can be misused and/or overused...but that is true of lots of things.


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## GoslingFever (Jan 31, 2006)

PrettyPaisley said:


> I wasn't sure I this is the best place to post this but I figure being dog related it would be safe.
> 
> We are getting what will be a 7.5 week old female German Shepherd for Christmas. The plan is to have her be an inside guardian who is raised around the other critters so she won't grow up to eat the goats.
> 
> I haven't been around inside dogs before but it seems crate training is all the rage. What is the consensus on this ? We had small dogs off and on when I was a kid but that was 30+ years ago and we never had a crate. Is this a good idea for an inside dog who will grow to be fairly big ? I really don't want a dog box in my house.


CONGRATS!!! GSDs are wonderful =) 

Crate training is very useful when training a puppy. Make it a good experience to be in the crate as a puppy and they will be happy to use their crate throughout life. 

We have raised puppies with & without one. Trust me, the With is easier.

I also worked for Veterinarians for many years. Puppies that are put in a "safe" place like a laundry room or a bathroom chew on wires, pipes, running boards, eat sponges and get into chemicals. 

If someone will be home all day with the puppy than the crate may not be used much, but it is nice to put the puppy away when you need to time alone or when the puppy cannot go with you. It's quick & easy to stow them in there for *their* safety as well as your peace of mind.

There are a few decorative crates that you can buy now. I have also seen some home-built crates that were gorgeous; perhaps you can find or make one that is more appealing than the plastic or wire ones.

These are our current girls. 



They are guards, coyote patrol, and house pets all at the same time. One generally chooses to be inside while the other two patrol; and through the night they change out. They weren't taught this, they just picked it up on their own. 

My family has been raising GSDs for over 20 years. GSDs don't think like labs, or spaniels, or Dobies, or Pits or Jacks. They think like GSDs. It's an experience to raise one - I hope your family enjoys their Christmas puppy and has many happy years with her!


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## GoslingFever (Jan 31, 2006)

And the crate is a place for the puppy to be safe, and for your peace of mind; but as an adult, it is a place for your dog to den. Our dogs love their beds, heck, they love *our* beds, but they love their crate. It is a comfort for them even as adults.


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## GoslingFever (Jan 31, 2006)

motdaugrnds; Cherokee was a real beauty, and what a dog. So sorry for your loss!


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I would not get a puppy that young, especially a large breed. She will be easier to housebreak and nip break and otherwise train if she is left with the litter longer. With small children at Christmas, I'd give the kids a leash, a water dish, a puppy crate. I'd take them shopping for a chew toy and food. I'd work with them on how to pet the puppy, what to do if/when it nips, where the puppy's toilet is, and all manner of things. A ten week old puppy is much better suited to leave it's litter, a ten week old puppy will be much easier for you.


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Can I just say I want to rephrase-- my crating beliefs are more along the lines of what Jennifer L said about using them for a young puppy and so they are used to being in one at the Vets (like post spay)... and then transitioning away from them as the dog matures... and also what Anita said about young kids/ dogs needing a safe space--
That said, crates being in use for more that 4 hours a day, daily is the Norm in my area. 
(like, why go out and special order a pedigreed dog if you are just going to lock it up?
If its a rescue or a dog outa the shelter, well fine maybe its better then being dead, but really... I see the crating being used as the height of fashion, right up there with spending $1000 on a designer dog puppy -- some one I know just got a "Poo-ton")...
And one of our dogs is crate- familiar, we just dont use one, and the others arent really-- but at 130 and going to be 140 lbs, especially post surgery where they will have to lie out and not be cramped thats gonna be a pretty big crate (our Berner was placed on the floor in front of the crate wall, on a blanket after his neuter at the Vets' actually)...
Sorry to digress, but when we leave--we are gone lots of times(childs school is half hour away no bus, etc), our dogs are left outside to patrol (well one super barky one is locked in the back kitchen, but thats b/c I dont want her to be a nuisance fence-barker, or start the puppy running the goats, she is an instigator)...we have goats and chickens running around and I like to know they are protected...

All that said, cant wait to see pics of your pup! And I think we all want to be updated, I love to see a dog back on the environment the breed started out in! The Farm!!!


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Oh and am so excited for your SO, I can only imagine how excited he must be. and as an ex K9 handler! you all are all set for training....
One walk we used to go on, the kids (tweens) would go by themselves no parents- in SF at a busy dogwalking trail), and the german shepherd would sort of herd them along as they walked, although the kids were walking her, she took it on as a Job for herself....


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

> If its a rescue or a dog outa the shelter, well fine maybe its better then being dead, but really... I see the crating being used as the height of fashion, right up there with spending $1000 on a designer dog puppy -- some one I know just got a "Poo-ton")


I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous and absurdly judgmental statement.

As has been said, good crate training and judicial use of crating is a great tool for the well being and safety of the dog.


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Tiempo said:


> I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous and absurdly judgmental statement.
> 
> As has been said, good crate training and judicial use of crating is a great tool for the well being and safety of the dog.


And I use prong collar and have used e- collars. All fine with judicious use and with "good" trainng.
Just like crates. What I am seeing is Not.
Have you heard of a 10 wk old puppy in a shock collar in a crate, for 10 hours a day while the owners go to work?
Browse thru some rescue stories, dogs crated 20 and (Boxer Rescue, CA) 23 hours a day til the dog went nuts and bit the owner trying to force her back in.
Oh and the puppy mentioned above-- my brother's. A friend suggested it, he didnt want problems with his landlord....

I am not sorry to tell you that a great many owners do Not use crate judiciously or well.
The average owner does not have a clue and that crate just becomes too tempting to use.


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## Brighton (Apr 14, 2013)

CAjerseychick said:


> And I use prong collar and have used e- collars. All fine with judicious use and with "good" trainng.
> Just like crates. What I am seeing is Not.
> Have you heard of a 10 wk old puppy in a shock collar in a crate, for 10 hours a day while the owners go to work?
> Browse thru some rescue stories, dogs crated 20 and (Boxer Rescue, CA) 23 hours a day til the dog went nuts and bit the owner trying to force her back in.
> ...


When I got my dog, my house dog, she was nine weeks old, I didn't have a choice NOT to go to work at that time as I needed money to keep my farm running. Would it have been better I just let her have run of the house, chew up anything she wanted, or locked her in the laundry room so she could chew through the cord to the dryer/washer and possibly do extreme damage to herself or set the house on fire, and yes she was a "rescue", but what danged difference does that make.

She is five years old now, a very happy, loyal, very protective, well trained dog, there are times she still goes to her crate by her OWN choice, and since she is 120lbs or so, it is a HUGE crate, like when there is company over and she just gets tired of the noise and activity. She loves her crate, it is her safe place, she doesn't use it much anymore, but if I am gone from the farm longer than an hour she goes in it, and the door is shut, because I would rather she be safe, than have her fling herself through the front picture window because some salesman comes up and rings our doorbell.

Anna


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I have never had a crated dog or had a crate. And I have always had BIG dogs, and after a few swear words and chewed shoes, cords, trash digs, and you wanting to pull out your hair, in the end they learn and get older and do what is expected and I learned to pick up my stuff...LOL.. would you crate a child? 

I am against crating, someone close to me crated and became lazy with their dog, because they had kids and was too busy and the dog always wanted attention, I would take it out to the back yard when I went to visit and the owners would always say "we just put him in there" I stopped going over there because I never saw the dog out of the crate. Unfortnately it was his death bed too.


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## Brighton (Apr 14, 2013)

Fowler said:


> I am against crating, someone close to me crated and became lazy with their dog, because they had kids and was too busy and the dog always wanted attention, I would take it out to the back yard when I went to visit and the owners would always say "we just put him in there" I stopped going over there because I never saw the dog out of the crate. Unfortnately it was his death bed too.


Those are the kind of people that shouldn't have a dog, EVER!


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Anna,
none of my comments are intended as personal attacks.
Of course I understand people working-- I am supporting my household currently will be for the foreseable future....
I just believe that there are other workable options that could be used in many cases instead of crates. And I did a Google search (right before the one that convinced me I may have Listeria, do you know that it can lasts for weeks and they dont treat otherwise healthy adults for it).... on crating....
And there was actually quite the discussion about it ... around the industry it has become by manufacturors as well as retailers....
Also one comment that resonated with me was about how people forget/ to wean their dogs out-- (the OP said its like keeping your Teenager in a Playpen, long after the toddler issues are gone)...

Of course if you have a crate with the door open, and dog wants to nap in it Great... thats what we have big plushy dog beds in corners for....
And sorry about your dog's behavioral issues, really. 
I have a giant schnauzer that I put in the back kitchen when we are expecting company ... and we have a front cattle gate between the front door and the road, visitors do not go past that gate when we are not home... they can leave messages at the mailbox...
We also like I said either leave the dogs loose to patrol, or tether the giant schnauzer in our garage (I like her being on duty) and that keeps her out of trouble.
Just there really are many choices to manage a dog's behaviors -- crates are just one of them-- and it sounds like the original OP was hesitant about them to begin with-- and wanted peoples' thoughts on it....


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Brighton said:


> Those are the kind of people that shouldn't have a dog, EVER!


I agree, but you never know who they are or turn into being.


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## Brighton (Apr 14, 2013)

CAjerseychick said:


> Of course if you have a crate with the door open, and dog wants to nap in it Great... thats what we have big plushy dog beds in corners for....
> And sorry about your dog's behavioral issues, really.


First of all my dog does NOT have behavior issues, at all, her job, and she knows it well it to protect the house, myself and my Mother, she knows very well certain trucks that come and go here, the neighbor farmer who leaves our straw and hay, she doesn't even bark when he pulls in the drive same with the hired man, she has even made friends with the UPS man, she is THAT smart! 

She has a giant plush dog bed, and a sofa all of her own, which she is sleeping on right now, she also sleeps next to me on my bed at night. Her crate has a blanket so she can be comfortable. But if a stranger comes up to the house and rings the bell she is on all alert, because that is her job, and if she thinks they might do harm she would go through a window to run them off! She hears everything day or night and lets me know if something is to the point where I need to get up and go check. Coyotes in the yard at 3am, or someone pulling in and checking out our fuel tank around the same time, she is the best dog I have ever had, and crate training her for her first year did nothing to change that!

Anna


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Brighton said:


> First of all my dog does NOT have behavior issues..., she is THAT smart!
> 
> She has a giant plush dog bed, and a sofa all of her own, which she is sleeping on right now, she also sleeps next to me on my bed at night. Her crate has a blanket so she can be comfortable. But if a stranger comes up to the house and rings the bell she is on all alert, because that is her job, and if she thinks they might do harm she would go through a window to run them off! ... she is the best dog I have ever had, and crate training her for her first year did nothing to change that!
> 
> Anna


I am not disagreeing with the judicious use of crates. And a dog can have behavioral issues (going through a glass window?).... and still be Smart and the best dog you have ever had...

You have found that crating for brief periods is what works great....
You are not crating all day 5 days out of the week (and dont forget) recrating them at bedtime thru the night....
This is what I am objecting to-- and that people do (far more than are willing to admit it)...
And that kind of crating must be detrimental to developing large breed puppies..... for all sorts of reasons, including creating behavioral issues...

But am trying not to hijack the Thread.
I want to see a pic of the new puppy!....


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Call me cruel, but I kennel my dogs till they are about 2 years old. I have a full time job which keeps me away from home about 9 hours a day. When I go to bed, they sleep in the kennel until they are house trained and can hold their bladder 8 hours a night. Now I could leave the dogs loose in the house while at work and come home to destroyed furniture, garbage all over, chewed up items and then beat the snot out of them for being bad. ( I don't believe in hitting dogs, alpha roll and all that other nonsense but too many people do. I find those training techniques crueler then a crate) I could also leave them out when I am sleeping when they are pups so they can wander off and poop or pee in the house at will instead of waking me up to be let out of their crate. They can develop there own potty place in the spare bedroom and I can rub the dogs face in it to teach it a lesson or slap it with a news paper.(don't recommend either method but both are commonly used) When my dog is 6 months old and hasn't figured out the house training thing yet, I'll just get rid of it. Each day those easily prevented behaviors are repeated the harder it will be able to break the cycle. Most people give up there dogs for reasons like chewing/destruction or housebreaking issues. Its weird my dogs don't have any behavioral issues but I sure read enough about all the ones others have that could have easily been prevented by not allowing the dog to develop the behavior in the first place.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

I'm obviously against crate training, as I stated in my first post. Just have never in my personal life seen the need for it, a baby gate across the utility room door has always worked for me. But I do have a question, and really do not intend for it to be snarky.
I'm wondering just how a dog is supposed to protect a house when it is locked in a crate?:huh:
You go to work, dog goes in locked crate, burglar walks in. Dog is nice and secure in that crate. Burglar makes off with Grannies silver. 
I get the whole not wanting them to potty all over, chew things up and so on, and can even see that as small puppies, crates may have a place in housebreaking.
But what is the point of having a dog to help protect your things, if you restrict it's ability to do so, at the time it seems most needed, IE: you aren't home?:huh:


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I was wondering when does the dog ever get out of the crate? When people are doing 9 hours at work and 8 hours of sleep.* I've never hit any of my dogs.* They want to please you, you earn being the leader of the pack with house dogs. And you learn to have authority in your voice. And you get up to let them out many times until they understand using the bathroom is for outside. Eventually they tell you when they need to go out. And you learn to keep your things picked up. Until they mature, It's no differant than a child. I dont get it if you dont have time for a dog then why have one?


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Thank you PrettyPaisley and GoslingFever. I still miss her! 

So many dogs I've had and they've all been special! It's like losing part of the family when something happens to them; and I often think of her when I'm working with my present dogs, especially with Valentina because this Karakachan thinks for herself like Cherokee (and Apache) did.

This difference I see throughout this thread about whether or not to use a crate just goes to show the diversity in the way owners train. I really don't believe one way is better than another as long as the dog's health (including emotional) is attended to and such crating does not give that dog mixed signals, i.e. guard the house while I'm gone with the crate actually stopping that dog from doing so. (I can just see some owners tending to their own needs at the expense of their dog's.) It really comes down to whether or not the owner can actually create space in their life/home that the dog needs to grow and develop its own character. If some can do this and still use a crate, kudos to them.

Just gotta share this. It is a video I have on youtube of Cherokee playing with very young kittens.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pbeGOeqH0Y[/ame]


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

awww great video Motdaugrnds... Cherokee just was such a loving dog, I think thats the kind of dog people dream of the combo of protection and tending as well....(I think when people speak of protection they sometimes just think of "attack" dog when true watchdogs also watch over their charges!)...


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I think you'll never be sorry to have a crate trained dog. This doesn't mean the puppy is in a cage all day, it means when you can't supervise him, he is in a safe place. The more time a puppy spends in the house, the more you need a crate. However, using a corner and a babygate, or the kitchen and a babygate is basically doing the same thing. You are curbing the puppy's freedom for his own good as well as your own. 

The foster dogs I get are always crate trained before I get them, either because their original owners crated them (yes, this is sometimes a form of neglect), the vet had the dog crated, they were in a shelter, or a previous foster home crated them. Crate training makes it much easier for me because with an unknown dog sleeping comfortably in a crate, I know he isn't peeing in the kitchen or pooping in the living room. He isn't chewing on wrong objects or attacking another dog. Dogs that have been abused often hide in their crate as a safe place when they feel vulnerable. When I transport my dogs they are safe in their crate in the backseat or hatch.

My permanent dog was crate trained as a puppy. We haven't used it except on rare occasions in over eleven years. But if he had to be crated for some reason, for instance being at the vet, he knows to lie down and take a nap.

Using a crate is not a fashion statement, it's simply another tool.


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Maura said:


> dog. This doesn't mean the puppy is in a cage all day, it means when you can't supervise him, he is in a safe place..... The more time a puppy spends in the house, the more you need a crate. .....
> Using a crate is not a fashion statement, it's simply another tool.


But Maura, 
what do you say for those dogs that dont live in the country? They do spend most of their time in crates-- 9 hours during workdays and another 8 at night.... 
17, 18 hours daily is the outcome of that crate training-- really thats OK and humane for a dog 5 days out of the week, really?
I dont think the crate proponents are Not assessing the reality on what they are telling new owners what is "good" for their dogs, its just so sad....

thats the reality that the crate are proposing.... 17,18 hours in a small space they can barely turn around in... its inhumane.... 
And owners get to used to automatically stuffing their dogs in crates, the dog never gets to prove its fine napping on the couch or snoozing in the spare room....
People come to rely on crates, and it is to the detriment of the dog--
very different from a baby gated room where they have more freedom of movement....

Here is one link (and truly LOL I never thought I would be allied with this group)...
http://www.peta.org/about-peta/why-peta/crating-dogs/

....


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

hercsmama said:


> I'm obviously against crate training, as I stated in my first post. Just have never in my personal life seen the need for it, a baby gate across the utility room door has always worked for me. But I do have a question, and really do not intend for it to be snarky.
> I'm wondering just how a dog is supposed to protect a house when it is locked in a crate?:huh:


This is very simple. _Puppies_ don't protect anything. If your puppy is looking to "protect" something - there is something wrong with your puppy, and after a vet check get a behaviorist, quick.
It is a survival mechanism and basically a puppy's job to just like everyone for at least the first (and in many breeds the second) year of life. After the first year you should be starting to wean them out of the crate. If you don't wean a dog out of a crate, that is the fault of the owner, not the crate. Like any other dog training tool, they can be misused. Collars have done more damamge to more dogs than crates, and we don't vilify them, because overall, tehy do more good, and are a very useful tool that can protect the dog in certain situations.

Also ~and like you, not intended to be snarky~ not everyone has a utility room
~I have seen dogs do serious amounts of damage to utility rooms - and eating drywall is really not healthy.
~Any serious thief will simply shoot your dog. They can bark at a rattling window just as well from inside a crate, and if that doesn't scare someone off, I'm more worried about them hurting the dog. Especially a puppy. Even if the thief is unarmed, a steel-toed boot can do a lot of damage to a puppy.



Fowler said:


> I was wondering when does the dog ever get out of the crate? When people are doing 9 hours at work and 8 hours of sleep.





CAjerseychick said:


> But Maura,
> what do you say for those dogs that dont live in the country? They do spend most of their time in crates-- 9 hours during workdays and another 8 at night....
> 17, 18 hours daily is the outcome of that crate training-- really thats OK and humane for a dog 5 days out of the week, really?


Yes, Really.
Dogs are not people. Know what dogs do all day while you're at work? Dogs sleep.

Dogs are not people - they like to sleep in small spaces. 
It makes them feel cozy and safe. I have NEVER had a pup who - with or without a crate - didn't like to curl up somewhere enclosed. Under a chair or end table or in a corner if they couldn't find anywhere cozier. 

And having to work and sleep does not equal no time for a dog.

Here's how it works, you get up in the morning and have a romp/walk/training session/all of the above with Pup. Then, you put Pup in a crate with a nice chew toy (I like a stuffed Kong) head off to work and Pup spends all day napping with brief intervals of chewing that toy.

Nice, safe, protected. Not chewing on drywall or peeing in the far corner of the utility room.

Then, you come home and Pup gets a nice walk and then gets attention and training all afternoon and all evening, when you're there to do it, and the baby has not been left on it's own to develop all the bad habits that a dog can.

Finally, it's bedtime again, and you give Pup a kiss and toss a biscuit into the crate and you both settle down for a good nights sleep. And, as Jason mentioned, once the puppy can hold it through the night, you quit using the crate at night. But you'll find that the dog will spend part of the night in there of it's own accord.

And really, you think that is so horrible that anyone considering it should not own a dog? The only people who should own dogs are people who live in the country and only work part time, if at all, and own indestructible utility rooms?


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Pretty Paisley, congrats.

I'm also getting a female GSD pup soon - we can cyber-see them both grow up. 

I'm going to crate train. I feel that every dog should have a den, a nice, safe place to eat and relax, away from boisterous kids. Previous dogs have all loved their crates, choosing to relax or sleep in them for years after the door has come off permanently. They are useful for traveling. If ever I have to go somewhere and take the dog, her own nice, familiar room can come with. LOL, I wish I could haul _my_ bedroom around like that!

The away from boisterous kids thing is a real concern. Lots of pups don't get to nap enough during the day, with happy, excited children wanting to touch and play with their new pet. So when I raise a pup, mealtime and the nap after happen in a crate, and the puppy very quickly learns that the crate is like base - no one can touch her. You might be surprised how often she goes in there, all on her own, to sleep, or chew on a toy all to herself.

And heaven forbid, if my dog ever has to stay at the vet, she will be used to being crated, and it won't be an additional stress on her. One the contrary, it may even help her relax, because after all, crates are sacred places where people leave her alone and all her life only good things have come of crates. All her meals will have been in her crate and she'll be used to relaxing and finding a toy or treat in there.

So even though I'm home all the time, there are still reasons to use a crate. It is a useful tool and dogs like them as much as leashes, so just because some people abuse them is no reason to not use one yourself.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Who would have thought that crate training would cause such friction? There is some good information in this thread and it's starting to head downhill please keep conversation civil so the thread doesn't end up deleted.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

wr said:


> Who would have thought that crate training would cause such friction? There is some good information in this thread and it's starting to head downhill please keep conversation civil so the thread doesn't end up deleted.


My daughter posted about crate training her new puppy on a breed site and a couple of people attacked her about it. I wouldn't have thought it was so controversial either.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Lisa, my daughter is back training smaller animals for various production companies and she says it is a huge hot topic right now, mainly because those few who overuse the crates or use crates but have poorly socialized animals. It's easier to blame crates than poor training or simply state that some people shouldn't own pets.


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> My daughter posted about crate training her new puppy on a breed site and a couple of people attacked her about it. I wouldn't have thought it was so controversial either.


My last crate comment, promise (on this thread anyway)....
Its exactly the opposite on my favorite (non breed specific) dog forum-- you arent seen as a responsible owner unless you use one....


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

CAjerseychick said:


> My last crate comment, promise (on this thread anyway)....
> 
> Its exactly the opposite on my favorite (non breed specific) dog forum-- you arent seen as a responsible owner unless you use one....



I think training dogs is much the same as training any other animal. There is absolutely no one right way that works in every situation. Like horses, some dogs need firm correction and their own space, others need more people time and others may be timid and need gentle guidance because firm correction will cause a meltdown.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

CAjerseychick said:


> But Maura,
> what do you say for those dogs that dont live in the country? They do spend most of their time in crates-- 9 hours during workdays and another 8 at night....
> 17, 18 hours daily is the outcome of that crate training-- really thats OK and humane for a dog 5 days out of the week, really?
> I dont think the crate proponents are Not assessing the reality on what they are telling new owners what is "good" for their dogs, its just so sad....
> ...


Even though we live in the country, my dog is not outside if I am not home. He is older now and spends most of the time in the house-- loose. 

While it's true some people keep the dog in a crate all day and all night, these are not really the best owners. I would not suggest crating a dog all the time, keeping him in the laundry room all the time, tying him out all the time, or in a backyard kennel all of the time. A dog is a companion animal and should be with his companions (humans for most dogs, sheep for others).

I have had at least a couple of fosters who were abused with the crate. Never let out, never able to fully interact with other family members. Then, they zoom all over, jump on people, and are put back in the crate. Some people just shouldn't have a dog. 

DH's exwife got a puppy and the vet said it was fine to crate her while the woman was at work. Well, then the puppy wanted attention when the woman got home, pooped in the kitchen because she wasn't let out when needed. Dog ended up being crated 23 hours a day. When she went on vacation for two weeks the kids were supposed to go over to her house 2x a day to let the dog out. DH couldn't stand it, brought the dog to our house for the two weeks. Some people should not have pets.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

It doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing.

My crate trained dog is asleep on the couch next to me now, he sleeps on the be at night, not in his crate.

He's only crated when alone in the house which is not often, at our dinner time and if people come over and he gets too giddy.

What I like about a crate versus a gated off room is I have the flexibility of having the crate in whichever room we please, or in someone elses home if necessary.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

OMG I just remembered a dachund I had during my highschool years. She was not trained with a crate and was house broken. We would leave her "alone" and loose in the house while we were in school and mother was at work, letting her out when we got home. In returning home, much of the time we would open the door and she would make a mad rush past us to pee in the yard. 

In the house when she would do something we disapproved of, we would have her stand in a corner...yes a corner she could easily walk out of but never did. Once we did this and then went outside to play, forgetting about her. We heard her whining and went inside to see her still in that corner wanting out so badly. We said "ok" and out she came, rushing past us to get outside. OMG such a cruel way to raise a dog is to let children as insensitive us we were tend to its needs!


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