# Long range shooting .308



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Been away quite a while. Working on a friendly challenge that you do not need a high priced system to consistantly hit a 2x2 steel target at 1000 yards. So on a budget under $2k I am loading a Sabatti 870 Rover with a Falcon om 4-18x ffp scope Caldwell bipod etc. So what factory rounds should I try that will stay super sonic at that range?


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

I would go with at least 168s.

I'm not a LR .308 guy, I use .300Win and more recently a 6mm SLR (Super Long Range). A friend of mine shoots a REM700 Police in .308 and reloads Sierra 168s and has no issues. One change he did have to make was a 20MOA base as he was running out of elevation with his MK4. His loads just about mimic the FED match 168. 

The FED 168s will just about stay SS at 1000 depending on conditions:

https://ultimatesniper.com/wp-conte...tic-Data-For-The-Federal-.308-Match-Round.pdf


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I have 80? MOA so hopefully its enough. Yes I know 308 is minimal for the job, thats kind of the point too. The advantage of the Sabatti is to squeeze just a little more out of a round with the multi radial rifling. ( a type of polygonal rifling)

It wasn’t meant to be the ideal system just competatively normal off the shelf


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Do not use the 168 they become unstable around 800....a 175 grain sierra matchking which federal match ammo uses and is considered entry level LR stuff, it usually more accurate than most shooters. The black hills stuff is pretty consistant ammo.

The best ammo is the ammo your rifle likes......do you understand how to figure out which ammo your rifle likes ?

Its way more than just shooting a few groups.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Pretty new to this so any advice is welcome.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I should have mentioned it has a 24” barrel on basically a Remington 700 action.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

How much time do you want to devote to this...…

I can give the abridged version or you can see how the deep the rabbit hole is....


Basically the rifle is like a tuning fork, if you will be just buying ammo, then it gets fairly easy to find what your rifle likes, although maximum accuracy will not be all it can be, but it will still be pretty good.

2.4 MOA, if your scope is MOA, is some pretty good shooting to start with......hitting the target after a few rounds is pretty realistic, sending the first one on target in variable conditions is where it gets hard.

I have no idea what you know, so that would be a good start so I do not cover the entire spectrum if not needed, its a vast subject that could take a while. Just the difference in if the target is east or west can make a 10 inch difference between shots from high to low. Shooting facing north or south eliminates this on the vertical plane, but not on the horizontal plane.


Like any detailed subject it can get way way more confusing before it gets clearer. Its best to decide now what your goals are and then learn what it takes to get to that goal. It can take years to digest and learn serious long range shooting and I am pretty sure one can never learn it all as the learning process just keeps going.


To keep it basic and digestable, when shooting to find a load/brand your rifle likes think of the barrel as a jump rope a jump rope is going 3 or 4 foot both ways in the center yet the ends are almost fixed in the vertical plane. The 2 ends and the center are whats called nodes. You want to find a stable node for your rifle where there is very little vertical dispersion like both ends of the rope.....you do not want to be on a active node like the center of a jump rope or the vertical shot placement will move around just like the center of the jump rope.

Remember the tuning fork analogy I used, nodes change with tune, just like a tuning fork will change when you hold it different, so will the rifle. You need EVERYTHING to be repeatable when you hold the rifle, from you to the bipod or bench rest holder...….never let the barrel rest on any holder and do not hold the barrel, that's never repeatable.

You can shoot at 100 yards or 200 to establish which round your rifle likes, what you are looking for is the least vertical dispersion......disregard the horizontal dispersion as it is meaningless for selecting the load your rifle likes. It is not meaningless for accuracy.....IE,its you, as all horizontal dispersion is shooter induced at 100 yards unless you are shooting in a tornado.

Since you are not reloading and working up a load you can not chase the vertical up and down by varied powder charges to find the center of high and low vertical string dispersion, you can make note of if it is high on the node or low on the node for the vertical strings of shots, but I doubt there are enough 175 grain match loads and you do want match ammo for 1000 yard shooting....to find one closest to the center of the best loads node.

Federal 175 grain match is the gold standard when it comes to affordable and consistent ammo, its about as cheap as decent match ammo gets.....its all relative, its more than likely going to be more accurate than you or your rifle are at this point, but still, it really comes down to if your rifle likes that load, if it does your in business with affordable match grade ammo, if not, then you might be stuck shooting a more expensive match ammo. There are things you can also do to change the tune of a rifle, but that is way beyond the scope of what you will need to do or is feasible on that rifle due to costs and time.


The above info should give you a bit to get started and trigger time is what it all takes, so do not be scared to send ammo out to 1000, just learn from each shot...…..if never shooting at 1000 before you can gain a little from sending some 150 grain stuff to save a few bucks, but a good portion of the data will be invalid when you change over to 175 grain match ammo.

Drops/wind drift, scope settings rifle tune etc will all change with a different load, that's why it is critical to find a load your rifle likes and stick with it, do not switch brands after you find what your rifle likes. Best practice is to just find the right brand/load and only use that, do not use any 150 grain loads to practice as all info from the 175 match load will be valid and can be used to learn.

Shooting hobbies are expensive and it really should be a last resort to get 100 rounds under your belt at 1000 to shoot 150 grain rounds, best if you just shoot the match rounds,,,,,,,last time I purchased any 175 federal gold metal match a good price was a buck a round, 20 bucks a box of twenty was a smokin deal......but 22 bucks to 25 bucks was common.

Squeeze that trigger slowly and get to know it, slowly....each shot should come as a surprise when it goes off ,you are squeezing soo slow. Use the tip of the finger where it is comfortable and do it the same way each time...how you hold, how hard you hold it, where you put it in your shoulder, how hard you pull it into your shoulder.....you need to repeat everything as identical each time you fire as it all matters.

This is all assuming you have a correct length of pull stock to fit you and assuming you mounted the scope the correct distance so it is comfortable and natural and does not force you to hold the rifle in a way the decreases accuracy, the correct height rings and correct height cheek riser.

Make sure you have a high quality set of scope rings, not sure of the prices on a low end, but quality set of rings, I would guess a couple hundred bucks 150-200...….also it is a good idea to run a box test on your scope...….I like run a decent 5 inch test, a box test is where you sight in at 100 yards, zero your turrets after sighting in, then assuming a moa scope run it up 5 moa , which is 5 inches at 100 yards and fire, then add 5 moa left fire, then come back 10 moa right which is 5 right from 0 and fire, then drop down 10 moa or 5 from 0 and fire......you are wanting to make a box approx. 10 inches....5 moa from center in all directions, then return the scope to 0 in all directions and fire a center shot, do this test 2 times on 2 clean targets, what you are doing is checking the turrets on the scope or the quality of the scope turrets/internals to be more precise....this test will tell you if you even have a scope that can make repeatable adjustments.

If you find a scope variance from the test,...other than your shooting....., you can still deal with it for your intended use , you will just need to identify the nature of the variance on the turrets and how to not make it do that and what you CAN do that does not induce turret drift...…..unless you spent a lot on the scope it will probably have turret drift, a lot of scopes do, even some that are considered high end.


I am not sure how experienced you are with air temp when shooting...…..but doing all the above can easily eat up a entire range day so keep in mind a 20 degree rise in air temp can get you shooting a inch or so higher thru the day as will a 20 degree drop will get you shooting a inch or so lower at 100 yards, which CAN translate into 10 inches high or low at 1000 yards while we are on the subject , the same as ammo temp can make a big difference......keep those rounds at a stable temp, no direct sun, then some in the shade etc, you want the ammo at as stable as a temp as feasible...….it is less sensitive to making the rounds high or low than air temp, but a round baking in the sun can be 30 to 50 degrees hotter than the air temps, so it is a more drastic swing that could happen in less than 10 minutes from shade to sun....so keep a eye on it.


Just remember everything that happens at 100 yards matters 10 times more at 1000 yards......little habits and flaws in your shooting that fly at 100 yards do not cut it at 1000 yards......some funny rifle/shooting thing that causes a inch in left to right variance over 5 shots at 100 can be 20 inches at 1000.


A decent shooter with a decent rifle can cook off 10 rounds or so and get on target at 1000 and make some hits, getting on target first round and putting them on target round after round is where the skill and understanding comes in.

As a OK shooter, I can get on target in good conditions after a bunch of rounds and make a few hits with a 16 inch barreled .556 with 55 grain rounds at 1000 yards but that is soo far past what that rifle and round is capable of, there is no consistency, best case it is just playing. Under ideal conditions and with 75 grain hand loaded match ammo tuned to that gun I can get on target in a couple shots and make some decent consistency on a 36 inch steel, but a gnat fart blows them 6 foot to one side or the other. Point to that story is a .308 with a 175 match load is pushing the extreme at 1000 yards in a match rifle. I am not sure what you are considering consistent hits at 1000......but here is a 1000 yard match shoot to get a idea.

These are seasoned shooters, shooting some exotic rifles with hand loaded ammo, not results to be expected from off the shelf match ammo in a regular rifle...so keep that in mind.











Old Ryan will get you up to speed on the basics...…..







If you really want to dive in the rabbit hole and really understand, this fella has solid info. This is by far the best info on the net..……..in my opinion


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Thank you for the reply and time you took! Really just starting out and of course cost is a factor for me. I am fortunate that there is a fellow local to me offering marksmanship courses too. Retired military does gunsmithing too. Probably should have started there but I didn’t. All for a friendly bit of shooting, my budget vs my friends spendy rifle, he will not practice much with or learn about. Certainly it is a huge topic and it is interesting to me. Not sure how far I will take it; but there’s no rush either. Thank you again!


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

If you find it all interesting that last vid series will be very entertaining......it covers about every aspect you would want, explains it clearly and covers A-Z. If it cost 1000 bucks for those vids, it does not, it would still be a great deal.

I actually started with .556 to reduce the costs of shooting at 1000 yards...it reduces the costs and forces the learning curve to happen fairly fast since all the basics are exaggerated with a cartridge that drops and drifts way more than a larger caliber.

35 to 50 cents a round is much easier on the wallet than a buck per shot.

The best way is to learn to reload, you can get way more consistency and accuracy than store bought ammo and it will costs considerably less. A simple 150 buck starter kit can produce some excellent ammo, it will be quite a while before you outshoot the rifle or the ammo you can produce on a cheap lee reloader set.


https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/4...+Metallic+Reloading+Presses&utm_content=42301


approx. 200 bucks since you will need a couple things not in the kit such a reloading die for the caliber you use.

I have produced a lot of very accurate ammo on that kit.....it will be a few guns and thousands and thousands of rounds before you can shoot better than the kit will do.

Its really easy and if you are in to that sort of thing, pretty calming and fun.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I was gifted a reloading kit which I haven't touched yet. I wanted a .308 bolt action which is why I picked it up. I will post a picture of it once the scope is mounted. Using pretty basic Weaver mounts and rings


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

That sniper 101 series of videos, which is 101 videos, has a part that covers mounting scopes, its pretty informative....lots of good info.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I have been watching them and others. Had to borrow an inch pound torque wrench


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

shawnlee said:


> How much time do you want to devote to this...…
> 
> I can give the abridged version or you can see how the deep the rabbit hole is....


This was a very nice post........thanks, for taking the time.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

shawnlee said:


> Old Ryan will get you up to speed on the basics...


Do you know Cleckner?


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Do you know Cleckner?


 No, not personally…...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I am working on getting there , but 880 is my goal for this year and the furthest place I have to shoot.

168 will make 880 but is falling subsonic before 1K

the 175 SMK with is what I am told by friend who is playing at 1K with 308 also a 20moa rail on a Rem 700 5R otherwise he was falling sub sonic and the electronic targets at the range he was at require you be super sonic to register.

I suggest you first find a round that will group moa or better at 200 yards , then move to 400 then 500 , 600 , 700 , 800 ,900 and 1K

try and get a hill behind your steel target , if need be mow or string trim the hill as close as you can for about 8 feet around the target you want your spotter to be able to see the dust rise from where you hit 

when you have some data for your load , the free online Hornady Ballistic calculator will be able to give you very realistic dope but start confirming it about 300 and adjust as necessary.

running the numbers with Hornady 178 BTHP match ammo at 2600 fps it is still super at 1k but not for much further you will be figuring for about 30 feet of drop


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

shawnlee said:


> No, not personally…...


Got it. Just the way you worded it, I thought you might be friends.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Just an update to this thread.

A couple of us shot a LR match yesterday and a friend of mine (JW) was using a REM700P 26" barrel with 168s.

Very interesting setup. 24" Gongs with flashing lights to signify hits. You could not see misses! The gongs were set away from the berm, with grass behind as to make it more challenging (it worked). Temps were in the low 40s for the majority of the time, wind was 10-19MPH. We shot off of flatbed trailers to enable seeing the tgts across the field. Yesterday was little guns: .223-6.5mm (Today is the big guys .30 & up), but they let my friend in yesterday so we could squad together. There were close to 69 shooters. We shot:

300Y No score but had to get a hit in 3rds to "qualify" to go on. After that you had to get a hit in 5 rds to proceed to the next distance.

500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, 1200, 1500 & 1900

My friends and I (2 RPRs, 1 M700) made it to 1500, then couldn't connect (JW couldn't shoot). The majority of mine were 1st round hits, cept for the 1200 when I broke a shot just when the wind let off. The inability to spot a miss is a real PITA, but that was the intent. Only a handful of guys went to 1900 and the majority fell by the wayside at 800-1000.

JW made 1st round hits on every target using 168s out to 1200. After that he was out of adjustments and mil-dots, so couldn't go on to 1500. So the 168s may not be ideal, but I just saw it done.....

Overall a great match.


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