# Any experience with no till gardening?



## Tyodra (May 4, 2018)

Just wondering if anyone had any experience gardening without tilling? My homestead is pretty new and I havent got a tiller, so I was contemplating just digging out a chunck of grass where i would plant a seed/seed potato/onion set, and leaving the areas in between grassy. Any ideas on whether or not this would work?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Won't work. At least not in the organic context. All grasses will send roots to the open areas. If you cut out the sod, sifted roots from the area, down at least 16 inches, installed plastic or metal barriers, 16 inches deep, refilled the hole with soil, compost, it would take awhile for the grass to invade.
The term "no till" is the world's most common farming method. But it requires the herbicide glyphosate, a compound that is quite safe and doesn't seep into the soil and doesn't remain active for more than a few days. Crop residue is left on the surface and repeated cultivation eliminated, saving topsoil from wind and rain erosion.


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

another vote to spray and kill everything then you can lay cardboard or paper down then dig out your chunks plant and then weed around them as the grass comes back. I have also stretched black plastic out for a couple weeks to temp kill grass.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

You might have some luck, depending on what kind of grass is there. I would dig a fairly deep hole and take a look at the root structure of the grass and sod directly underneath. If you can dig down a few inches and hit clear soil(without any more roots ) you could possibly get by with just making fairly large holes, or even strips in which to plant. If the soil is crisscrossed and laced with roots and white runners, then Haypoint would be correct in saying it would just grow back together pretty quickly. But usually, planting in heavy sod only works for pine tree seedlings. They manage to compete with the roots fairly well. Onions, small seeds? They don't compete well with grasses or roots crowding them. Potatoes, you will want to "till" slightly, after removing a strip of sod grass, so you can get them planted with good soil contact---then you could mulch and cover with hay, straw, or other mulch. Trouble is, in a grass sod the first year, you might have problems with wireworms and grubs in your potatoes.

Can you get some extra soil and make some raised beds? Can you rent a rototiller?

geo


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

haypoint said:


> Won't work. At least not in the organic context. All grasses will send roots to the open areas. If you cut out the sod, sifted roots from the area, down at least 16 inches, installed plastic or metal barriers, 16 inches deep, refilled the hole with soil, compost, it would take awhile for the grass to invade.
> The term "no till" is the world's most common farming method. But it requires the herbicide glyphosate, a compound that is quite safe and doesn't seep into the soil and doesn't remain active for more than a few days. Crop residue is left on the surface and repeated cultivation eliminated, saving topsoil from wind and rain erosion.


Have you seen the "organic" method of no-till? A large roller with embedded blades is used on a growing cover crop of ryegrass or oats to smash and kill the stems. Then, no-till is the same method--except no glyphosate is used. The mulch is left on to do the job of moisture retention and weed suppression.

geo


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

That'll work if your goal is not commercial production where you want to squeeze every last penny of profit out of your plot. 

If your new plot is to be positioned on existing sod, you'll still need to use a tiller, fork over the sod by hand or kill it with herbicides as mentioned above on the spots where you'll plant seeds or potted starters. You could just use a shovel to clear an appropriate amount of sod for each plant. (Have you considered renting a small tiller?)

Once the crop is established, weeds can out-compete your crop plants, but that's only a problem when soil nutrients, water or sunlight are in short supply. You can always add water & fertilizer so there's enough for everybody. Cutting weeds down with a tool or just tearing on them by hand occasionally will allow enough light for your crop plants. Grass is a pain because so many types spread by runners. I let dicot weeds grow as green manure. Their roots often go much deeper than the crop's and bring minerals up towards the surface. Letting weeds grow in the garden also keeps soil covered preventing excessive loss of moisture.


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## Tyodra (May 4, 2018)

Thanks for all the good advice. Upon digging up some of the sod, i discovered that its pretty shallowly rooted, so Im just going to buckle down and dig out some strips, fill with compost, and plant away. Perhaps next year we'll get a tiller, we just have way too much on financial plates this year, getting everything set up


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

I tried not tilling my large raised beds for several years. What I eventually discovered was fairly large tree roots from trees maybe 20 feet away were growing into my raised beds and making my planting vegetables difficult.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Tyodra said:


> Thanks for all the good advice. Upon digging up some of the sod, i discovered that its pretty shallowly rooted, so Im just going to buckle down and dig out some strips, fill with compost, and plant away. Perhaps next year we'll get a tiller, we just have way too much on financial plates this year, getting everything set up


Perfect. Have at it. Been there done that, got the T-shirt.

That being said, we had more trouble with cutworms: they had been living in the sod and when we removed all of their usual food they had the choice of eating the vegetables or starving. So they ate the vegetables. I hear that inserting a match stick into the soil right against the stem of each plant is good, as the cutworm cannot wrap itself around the stem properly and that stops them from feeding. Or so it has been said. You might have different pests living in your area.

Also the harvest was smaller, as compost takes TIME to break down and the veggies needed nourishment NOW! Using 10-10-10 would help, unless you wish to stay organic. Perhaps somebody here can suggest an organic fertilizer that has nutrients that are available immediately, but I do not know of any

Lastly, we do not have the kind of grass that sends out underground runners, which was a huge help. In some areas those runners can pierce a potato.

The results were that we got a harvest of 1/3 to 1/2 of what we got in later years. Bon appetite. If we had not planted then we would have gotten no vegetables at all from that land, and so I never regretted planting.

We did not get a reduced harvest because we did not TILL: we got a reduced harvest because we broke up the grass land and planted immediately.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

geo in mi said:


> Have you seen the "organic" method of no-till? A large roller with embedded blades is used on a growing cover crop of ryegrass or oats to smash and kill the stems. Then, no-till is the same method--except no glyphosate is used. The mulch is left on to do the job of moisture retention and weed suppression.
> 
> geo


cept he's on lawn grass.


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## Bungiex88 (Jan 2, 2016)

The only way I could see it working very well is the back to eden garden set up


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## dmm1976 (Oct 29, 2013)

This is exactly what we do. I generally dig a foot down and as big around as I want then chop up the dirt that's in the bottom of the hole and then fill the hole with topsoil. We have clay for soil here so I've found it's best just to replace it. The grass does try to grow but I keep picking it out. It has been working fine. 

At the moment I am waiting on a wood chips delivery from chipdrop.com 

That will be placed over a large grassy area that's been covered with cardboard , the .top soil over the wood chips. That's our plan for a pumpkin patch.


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## RonTgottagoat (Feb 27, 2014)

I did my garden no till the past couple years. I mow between rows and use clippings etc for mulch. After I cut with mower I go back through and pull weeds grass that started to invade beds. I did place a chicken tractor over garden space for a couple weeks before planting between that and a week of covering bed with corrugated metal. Grass was mostly eliminated from beds before planting


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## HeavyHauler (Dec 21, 2017)

Tyodra said:


> Thanks for all the good advice. Upon digging up some of the sod, i discovered that its pretty shallowly rooted, so Im just going to buckle down and dig out some strips, fill with compost, and plant away. Perhaps next year we'll get a tiller, we just have way too much on financial plates this year, getting everything set up


I dug up my sod a bit and planted in the holes. My potatos did better and had no scab compared to the ones in the raised bed. I also had more potatoes on that plant than the others.

It works.


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## HeavyHauler (Dec 21, 2017)

Terri said:


> Perfect. Have at it. Been there done that, got the T-shirt.
> 
> That being said, we had more trouble with cutworms: they had been living in the sod and when we removed all of their usual food they had the choice of eating the vegetables or starving. So they ate the vegetables. I hear that inserting a match stick into the soil right against the stem of each plant is good, as the cutworm cannot wrap itself around the stem properly and that stops them from feeding. Or so it has been said. You might have different pests living in your area.
> 
> ...


Kelp/seaweed, sea minerals all work right now. Compost tea, worm castings tea too.


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## HeavyHauler (Dec 21, 2017)

I only grow organically and I try all sorts of planting methods in my small yard.

I have a better garden than most.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I had ducks in one of the areas where I now have a garden. They ate every green thing inside the fence. Best was to kill grass I ever found. Short of penning ducks or chickens in the spot, your best bet is heavy cardboard covered with mulch of some type. Mowed grass, old straw, shredded leaves, wood chips etc work great. You have to leave it in place for nearly a year to kill all the underlying vegetation. Then the next year you lay out your beds (yep, beds. They are the backbone of no cultivation gardening) and walkways. Chop holes to plant transplants in the beds and mulch heavily. Walk only in your walkways. You compact the soil when you walk on it. If you don't walk on it the soil will gradually be loosened in the top few inches by worms and other digging critters. 

You could also lay down the cardboard and mulch and use pots or try straw bale gardening on the site if you want to plant something now. I've also seen people use potting soil bags laid out on the ground and planting in those. I never tried it or the straw bales but have used the mulch and pot method.
https://dengarden.com/gardening/How-To-Make-A-Quick-And-Easy-Vegetable-or-Flower-Garden


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## Sandi (Oct 4, 2011)

I do no till with clover and weeds growing in my paths. I have about a quarter acre garden. If you are bringing in compost and topsoil and your grass is shallow, save some work and sheet compost as much as you can with cardboard then just dump the new stuff on top. I never walk in my beds and weed by hand, do cover crops, etc. Gardening gets simpler every year.


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## Andrew Carter (Jul 4, 2018)

Watch film “Back to Eden” Gardening, and look up the book “growing food Gods way”.


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## Oldhat (Jun 2, 2014)

You may think this is odd but I am working towards no-till and it's one of my goals. With that said I suggest you till/plow, add amendments (compost, leaves, wood chips, etc) and start your no till once you get your soil to where it can facilitate no till. The permaculture folks are the ones that kill me. They love to think that they are holier than thou with their no till but typically always start by bringing excavators, dozers, chainsaws, etc and rip the hell out of the land then start building it back to obtain no till status. 

I've been focusing my efforts on my traditional garden (3000 sq ft) and going no till for 4-5 years now. I'm getting close but have put a lot of effort into it...and I have a tractor with a tiller, compost around 80-100 yards of wood chips/year and bury my garden with it. I may be there in 2 more years. 

The beauty of "no till" is really not the "no-till"part but instead about creating a balanced environment to facilitate the growth of life. Tilling pretty much kills off anything and everything in the top 10" or so of a garden. By tilling you devastate your worms, fungi, bacteria, good bugs, etc. Sure you've killed off the bad too but what's it all worth? Try and achieve a balance. 

My tip = Never let bare soil see the light of day for any extended amount of time. Exposed soil is a no no in my book. Once I gt things planted the entire garden gets buried in about 3-5" of wood chips....one snow shovel load at a time. 

Good luck to you. "permies.com" is an interesting place when it comes to ideas about no tilling and organic gardening. A bit cultish/cliquish but most there are highly educated and offer good advice. All of my raised beds (about 1000 sq ft worth) are all based off the permaculture method...I still however litely till (with a shovel) most of those if I am starting from seed.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Bungiex88 said:


> The only way I could see it working very well is the back to eden garden set up



…..the real name should be back to chiggers and ticks method.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

While the method anyone uses that works is a good method as there is only one bad method and that's the one that yields little to no food.

I have seen/been around, had and helped in a lot of different sized gardens. It is a lot of work preserving /harvesting and planting.....the last thing you want is to add to that work load, especially if you have animals and other chores to do.


Garden fabric is cheap......and turns a garden from either looking like a overgrown field full of chiggers and ticks or a crazy experiment in weed tending to a nice looking easy to work garden.

The method below is what I will be using.....use whatever method that makes you happy.


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