# "We've Always Done It This Way Homes."



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

This has got to be a prerequisite mindset for nearly every owner or manager in just about any industry out there.

First generation makes it.

Second generation saves it.

Third generation blows it.

Just like clockwork, happens nearly every time.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

Ecclesiastes 10:10 If the ax is dull and its edge unsharpened, more strength is needed, but skill will bring success.

Sad, that just about every organization throws the tool away rather than sharpens it and grabs a bigger hammer if the parts don't fit.

Skill? Ain't that a brand of electric circular saw?

Sheetrock and paint make a carpenter what he ain't.

Can't see it from my house.

My daughter is having a custom home built.

She is extremely intelligent and has researched every detail from the ground up and made specifications about how she wants HER house built.

The builder has resisted her and by so doing has disrespected her every step of the way.

Now that the house is nearing completion, (nearly six months over estimated key/final inspection date. Now her locked in interest is gone and she will have to finance at 1% more interest minimum) he has finally caught her vision and now brings people over to show them her house and the modifications she specified.

True story, she actually told him that instead of calling his business Creative Homes that he needs to call it "We've always done it this way homes."

I sincerely doubt that he will have new business cards printed up.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Totally understand that. Been there with builders.

Meeting a new one today at the site in Llano.

Keep your fingers crossed for me.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

When we had our roof replaced shortly after buying this house we had a few arguments with our contractor. He kept saying 1/2 inch plywood was fine, despite the fact that the old sheathing was sagging between the tresses. The current 3/4 inch plywood has lasted longer than the original roofing did.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Danaus29 said:


> When we had our roof replaced shortly after buying this house we had a few arguments with our contractor. He kept saying 1/2 inch plywood was fine, despite the fact that the old sheathing was sagging between the tresses. The current 3/4 inch plywood has lasted longer than the original roofing did.


Funny thing that.

If you specify a particular material and are paying for it, why do contractors give you grief?

FYI

These little numbers (plywood clips) are handy to put in the gap between trusses/rafters, as they stiffen the plywood/OSB when there is no truss/rafter under it lending support.

Half inch plywood shouldn't buckle on 24" OC rafters/trusses but clips lend a tad bit more overall bearing weight strength. Clips are usually used on half inch and less plywood.

Three quarter should hold an elephant.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

those clips are every bit as much about the expansion gap as they help with support not unreasonable to expect a roof to take a 250+ degree temp shift

-40 to 220 and easily go 100+ degrees in a day
before the clips you stuck 16 penny nails in for the gap then nailed the sheet down


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## Wellbuilt (Dec 25, 2020)

I know I’ve put 1/2” ply on trusses before 
But it was not really strong .
I have not had a problem with it 
5/8 is standers around here , but a lot of guys like the zip board I’ve never used it .


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

I give customers what they want. They are willing to pay for bit, why not.

I do try and not let them buy the paint. I know what works and covers best.

However, if it's 4 different shades of purple, sure, I'll do it. Why would I care.

Now if they look on the internet and say this is how "JustAsk" or "Suzies First Remodel" said to do it, we may have a discussion.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> those clips are every bit as much about the expansion gap as they help with support not unreasonable to expect a roof to take a 250+ degree temp shift
> 
> -40 to 220 and easily go 100+ degrees in a day
> before the clips you stuck 16 penny nails in for the gap then nailed the sheet down





> *Roof Sheathing Installation*
> 
> Sheathing Layout Install sheathing panels according to the recommendations of the Engineered Wood Association (APA). Use panels no smaller than 4 feet long. Blocking of unsupported edges may be required near gables, ridges, and eaves (follow design drawings). Unless otherwise indicated by the panel manufacturer, leave a 1/8-inch gap (about the width of a 16d common nail) between panel edges to allow for expansion. (Structural sheathing is typically cut slightly short of 48 inches by 96 inches to allow for this expansion gap – look for a label that says "Sized for Spacing.") This gap prevents buckling of panels due to moisture and thermal effects, a common problem.





> *Do I need to leave expansion gaps with OSB?*
> 
> Yes, in order to avoid dilation stress on the board edges.
> 
> ...


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

My ex was a general contractor 😆
He did good work but it was going to be done how he wanted it done. 
Actually that's a good example of one reason he's an ex.


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## Wellbuilt (Dec 25, 2020)

that is pretty much how I am I Designer job , build a job , I do fine work.
If the people don’t like what I’ve planed they can hire some one else .
Can’t get my wife to leave 🤷‍♂️


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Wellbuilt said:


> Can’t get my wife to leave 🤷‍♂️


I'll put you in touch with my ex 🤣
He is so abrasive that I've had wives call me and ask me if there was some way I could keep him away from their husband because he was a bad influence!


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## Wellbuilt (Dec 25, 2020)

you sound like my wife , 2 peas in a pod .


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Wellbuilt said:


> you sound like my wife , 2 peas in a pod .


You probably shouldn't introduce us then. Not sure anyone could stand 2 of us if she's like me 😉


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

1/2 sheeting on 2' centers will sag.
5/8 here also.
No I don't allow customer to spec building materials as to structural.


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

Clips, clips? The guy who supplied my father in law with all his materials asked him "Why didn't you use clips?" _after_ the house was completed. I jokingly ask "Did you get the clips?" from time to time - it is sort of a standing joke. I did not know of the use of clips either btw.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

MichaelZ said:


> Clips, clips? The guy who supplied my father in law with all his materials asked him "Why didn't you use clips?" _after_ the house was completed. I jokingly ask "Did you get the clips?" from time to time - it is sort of a standing joke. I did not know of the use of clips either btw.


See this cute little darlin'? Simpson H2.5A Hurricane Tie.









Arizona code requires that each end of every roof truss needs to have an H2.5A secured to the truss and to the wall top plates with inch and a half long Teco nails

Picture of installed H2.5A.










45 years ago when I was a framer, I had to install my share of H2.5A's.

It was in the era of hand driven, every nail in the house from stud to sheathing was put in by Mr. Estwing.

Estwing, Clint Estwing... Make my day... But I digress.

I had to drive a one and a half inch Teco nail through a sheet metal truss gangnail.

To this day when I think about it, I cringe at the pain inflicted by all of the times I hit my thumb nailing those little suckers in.

Now it's all pneumatics, no more busted thumbs.


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## Wyobuckaroo (Dec 30, 2011)

"We have always done it that way" This was one of the things I did not tolerate when running my own or others tool and die shops... This at a time when that technology was expanding at a terrific rate... Anyway... 

I have to suspect a lot of ...same old same old... in home building is driven by demands from lenders.. That being it is what they can sell the easies and cheapest for them ....not necessarily chapest and easiest for the buyer....


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Wyobuckaroo said:


> "We have always done it that way" This was one of the things I did not tolerate when running my own or others tool and die shops... This at a time when that technology was expanding at a terrific rate... Anyway...
> 
> I have to suspect a lot of ...same old same old... in home building is driven by demands from lenders.. That being it is what they can sell the easies and cheapest for them ....not necessarily chapest and easiest for the buyer....


Tool and die eh? I worked running a Bullard for a shop In Connecticut and welders, Bridgeports and horizontal lathes in a job shop in Missouri.

"We have always done it that way" is just polite shorthand for saying, "I'm intellectually hidebound and hopelessly lazy." It raises my hackles about as much as hearing, "It's not my job."


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

@Tom Horn, my roof could hold an elephant. Hubby bought the first bag of clips and demanded the roofer pick up more and install them when they ran out. Hubby has been called "the king of overkill".

I can understand why contractors don't want the home owner to dictate structural material. Most homeowners do not know building codes or understand you don't take short cuts or the cheap way out. We have had to redo a lot of "cheap way out" construction in this house.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

TxMex said:


> My ex was a general contractor 😆
> He did good work but it was going to be done how he wanted it done.
> Actually that's a good example of one reason he's an ex.


Photo of a contractor's license.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Danaus29 said:


> @Tom Horn, my roof could hold an elephant. Hubby bought the first bag of clips and demanded the roofer pick up more and install them when they ran out. Hubby has been called "the king of overkill".
> 
> I can understand why contractors don't want the home owner to dictate structural material. Most homeowners do not know building codes or understand you don't take short cuts or the cheap way out. We have had to redo a lot of "cheap way out" construction in this house.


Overkill/overbuilt is not necessarily a bad thing.

It's just that if you've got shallow pockets, you hit bottom pretty quick.

In the age in which we live, there is no excuse for being uninformed.

Like they say, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

And, "If you can't run with the big dogs, you'd best stay on the porch."

If you don't go all Karen on a builder, you have every right to reasonably request whatever you want.

If you are signing the checks, you are the boss and if your builder cops an attitude, you need a different builder.

Any decent tradesman also knows that part of the job is as an educator, not a condescending snob that talks down to you.

How does a builder say, "Screw you!?"... "Trust me, trust me."

Just like Jimmy Malone, (Sean Connery) in the Untouchables, "Trust no one."

If you completely rely on a builder to be honest and fair, you are in for a wild ride.

Don't be paranoid, get educated.

There are YouTube videos on nearly every subject under the sun.

Learn codes. Learn how to understand prints.

Don't be a poser, however, learn the language, doohickey and thingamajig won't cut it.

The more you know going in, the less you'll have to R&R after the fact.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Danaus29 said:


> @Tom Horn, my roof could hold an elephant. Hubby bought the first bag of clips and demanded the roofer pick up more and install them when they ran out. Hubby has been called "the king of overkill".
> 
> I can understand why contractors don't want the home owner to dictate structural material. Most homeowners do not know building codes or understand you don't take short cuts or the cheap way out. We have had to redo a lot of "cheap way out" construction in this house.


You don't need clips on 5/8" or better and clips are not the answer for a poorly and substandard sheeting job.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Elevenpoint said:


> You don't need clips on 5/8" or better and clips are not the answer for a poorly and substandard sheeting job.


The previous sheeting was sagging between the rafters. We did not want to repeat the situation. It was expensive enough to have all the sheeting replaced shortly after buying the house. When it was reshingled 5 years ago the sheeting (except one spot where a nail fell out) was still in excellent shape.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

With no experience of building anythng larger than a chicken coop or shed, I built my own house with the help of just one experienced carpenter....I quickly came to realize that the difference betweeen the amateur and the pro is that the pro knows how to hide the mistakes....bu we all make them.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> You don't need clips on 5/8" or better and clips are not the answer for a poorly and substandard sheeting job.


You may not need 'em, however, it don't hurt to have 'em.

Nothing is the answer to a substandard job other than to not do a substandard job in the first place.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

doc- said:


> With no experience of building anythng larger than a chicken coop or shed, I built my own house with the help of just one experienced carpenter....I quickly came to realize that the difference betweeen the amateur and the pro is that the pro knows how to hide the mistakes....bu we all make them.


Hey Doc...

Why does a chicken coop only have two doors?

Because if it had four, it would be a chicken sedan.

Oh, and you are right about mistakes, we all make them.

However, a craftsman fixes them rather than hides them.

The lazy poser relies on sheetrock and paint.

'Cause as we all know...

Sheetrock and paint, make a carpenter what he ain't.  

Photo of a carpenter's eraser.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Tom Horn said:


> See this cute little darlin'? Simpson H2.5A Hurricane Tie.
> 
> View attachment 106798
> 
> ...


they have a new screw product that replaces the galvanized hurricane clips it is a long coarse screw that goes up through the double plate and doesn't leave that headache to sheet rock around or finish over 

the driver installs on your drill and is 3-4 feet long and you can install them all from the floor so no more moving ladders either 

I haven't tried it , I always wondered why it couldn't be done , someone got it approved for building code now


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> You may not need 'em, however, it don't hurt to have 'em.
> 
> Nothing is the answer to a substandard job other than to not do a substandard job in the first place.


And if everyone would do it my way we would have no problems.
I framed my roof 16"oc with 1/2" actual plywood and no clips.
Never have clipped a roof and never will.
I've seen plenty of 7/16" OSB on 24"oc rafters with clips but they do nothing to stop the deflection.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> they have a new screw product that replaces the galvanized hurricane clips it is a long coarse screw that goes up through the double plate and doesn't leave that headache to sheet rock around or finish over
> 
> the driver installs on your drill and is 3-4 feet long and you can install them all from the floor so no more moving ladders either
> 
> I haven't tried it , I always wondered why it couldn't be done , someone got it approved for building code now


Sweet!


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Simpson string tie took it a step further and has an extension driver


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I don't use ply clips. I did once and didn't like them. By the time you get to the decking you have all these scrap wood blocks lying around. You [should] have a pneumatic nailer. Use the scrap and not have to throw away so much. It's stronger, cheaper and it's also to code.

I have re-roofed more than a few houses that had the ply clips rusted so bad they were not holding anything. Plus they made the decking rot around it from condensation over the years. Cold roof, hot attic is like a coke bottle on a summer day.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Elevenpoint said:


> And if everyone would do it my way we would have no problems.
> I framed my roof 16"oc with 1/2" actual plywood and no clips.
> Never have clipped a roof and never will.
> I've seen plenty of 7/16" OSB on 24"oc rafters with clips but they do nothing to stop the deflection.


I put mine on 16" too. It may cost an extra 300 bucks total per 1000 feet of house. And your not afraid to walk on it afterwards. 

And I don't even have snow load codes here. I can't believe anyone that does would use 24 centers.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

mreynolds said:


> I don't use ply clips. I did once and didn't like them. By the time you get to the decking you have all these scrap wood blocks lying around. You [should] have a pneumatic nailer. Use the scrap and not have to throw away so much. It's stronger, cheaper and it's also to code.
> 
> I have re-roofed more than a few houses that had the ply clips rusted so bad they were not holding anything. Plus they made the decking rot around it from condensation over the years. Cold roof, hot attic is like a coke bottle on a summer day.


Thank you.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

mreynolds said:


> I put mine on 16" too. It may cost an extra 300 bucks total per 1000 feet of house. And your not afraid to walk on it afterwards.
> 
> And I don't even have snow load codes here. I can't believe anyone that does would use 24 centers.


Thank you again.
We'll educate them no matter what.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> This has got to be a prerequisite mindset for nearly every owner or manager in just about any industry out there.
> 
> First generation makes it.
> 
> ...


I would never build a house for your daughter based upon her "research or specifications".
Her licensed engineer or architect?
Yes then we're good.
Not hers ever.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Elevenpoint said:


> I would never build a house for your daughter based upon her "research or specifications".
> Her licensed engineer or architect?
> Yes then we're good.
> Not hers ever.


Yes, if there is no engineer, the builder gains 100% of the liability. People should be informed for sure but hire someone you can trust and you cant go wrong. 

Hard Rock Cafe New Orleans is falling on the engineer and not the builder. This is the way it is supposed to work.


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## Max Overhead (Feb 22, 2021)

Looking for a good carpenter myself. Had one come out, give me a materials list, then vanish. Now I've got a Craigslist ad along with all the materials. Was talking to the cook at the food mart where I get my beer. I said, maybe the workman I've been looking for is me. Still, all the youtube videos and the books will be hard-pressed to give me the confidence to raise up a rickety 120 year old house to put a new sill beam in. I understand that the lessons learned by mistakes are the ones that stick, I just don't want to die, yet.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> I would never build a house for your daughter based upon her "research or specifications".
> Her licensed engineer or architect?
> Yes then we're good.
> Not hers ever.



You appear to be both obtuse and condescending.

Chances are with your hidebound superior attitude you would have been eliminated as a builder candidate in the first round.

Nowhere did I imply subverting code or architectural specifications.

Where there is wiggle room outside of compromising structural architecture or codes, the wishes of the customer should be taken seriously and accommodated wherever and whenever possible.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> You appear to be both obtuse and condescending.
> 
> Chances are with your hidebound superior attitude you would have been eliminated as a builder candidate in the first round.
> 
> ...


If she had no architect stamped plans from the beginning, and the idea was her research then yes I would be first out the door.
My comments are based upon over 30 years of experience.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> If she had no architect stamped plans from the beginning, and the idea was her research then yes I would be first out the door.
> My comments are based upon over 30 years of experience.


Oh... I'm so busted.

Yes, she had the plans for her house scrawled on a paper napkin and was trying to use a smiley face sticker for the architect stamp.

I'm certain that wouldn't have gotten past your over 30 years trained, eagle eye let me tell ya.

The stick framed world can rest easy with you treading the ramparts Captain Plywood Pants.

Or would that be OSB Pants... No matter.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> Oh... I'm so busted.
> 
> Yes, she had the plans for her house scrawled on a paper napkin and was trying to use a smiley face sticker for the architect stamp.
> 
> ...


Stick with plywood, I'm not an OSB man.
And don't hesitate to ask for advice, educating the uneducated is a part of my life.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

And that makes this thread about as dead as a door nail.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

If you don't take short cuts you can sleep well . I have the habit over over building!...


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I trust Elevenpoint on all things construction. He has an eagle eye and a sharp builder’s mind.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Elevenpoint said:


> And if everyone would do it my way we would have no problems.
> I framed my roof 16"oc with 1/2" actual plywood and no clips.
> Never have clipped a roof and never will.
> I've seen plenty of 7/16" OSB on 24"oc rafters with clips but they do nothing to stop the deflection.


The idiots who built this house put the roof trusses at 24" oc. Between that and the bathroom fan vented into the attic with only little window vents at the ends caused the roof sag. The clips are not rusted because the attic now has proper ventilation.

I agree with you about OSB being a poor roof material.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Max Overhead said:


> Looking for a good carpenter myself. Had one come out, give me a materials list, then vanish. Now I've got a Craigslist ad along with all the materials. Was talking to the cook at the food mart where I get my beer. I said, maybe the workman I've been looking for is me. Still, all the youtube videos and the books will be hard-pressed to give me the confidence to raise up a rickety 120 year old house to put a new sill beam in. I understand that the lessons learned by mistakes are the ones that stick, I just don't want to die, yet.


Your carpenter sounds like the roofer we had a contract with. Waited until we had the material on the deck then stopped answering their phone. We found another roofer that used the shingles we had and gave us a list of additional necessary material. They did a great job and reshingled our roof in one day. We bought them lunch.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I trust Elevenpoint on all things construction. He has an eagle eye and a sharp builder’s mind.


Thank you, I graduated from a prestigious old school called Overengineering.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

mreynolds said:


> And that makes this thread about as dead as a door nail.


Your not working on a crawl space project with me ever again


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> Stick with plywood, I'm not an OSB man.
> And don't hesitate to ask for advice, educating the uneducated is a part of my life.


Sarcasm is wasted on the dull witted.

They also say, "Them that can't... Teach."

My daughter had prints, prints from an architect, official, genuine, code approved prints.

You know, the kind that each page covers a particular detail of the build... frame, electrical, plumbing, etc. and the roll of them takes two men and a boy to carry?

Crimony boy, I'm talking about thinking outside the box when it comes to details that are not code specific and can be altered without violating structural integrity or code.

Little things like this.











Instead of this.








She stayed well within and went above code with her innovative ideas. She also wanted the exterior, freezeproof, flush-mount water hydrants to be installed 40 inches above grade in order to facilitate ease of use, rather than having them at ground level.

Her builder resisted her every innovation until the house was nearing completion and when someone, like you, with absolutely no vision, could see things from her POV.

He then began to use her house as a showplace, bringing potential customers there in order to demonstrate the possibilities of what could be done in order to make any home more occupant friendly.

You are the epitome of what she said to her misogynistic, pig-headed, builder, that dismissed her and condescendingly looked down his nose at her because in his exceedingly narrow and confirmation bias clouded brain, she was not a builder and was a woman to boot.

"Victor (Elevenpoint), you need to change the name of your company from 'Creative Homes'(Your company name here) to 'This is the way we've always done it homes.'

I've known so many like you that If I wanted to commit suicide, I would climb their ego and jump to their IQ. 

@Alice In TX/MO @TripleD


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

I'm a boy to you being an asshole.
You will never give me advice or suggestions in any fashion towards any facet of building.
Your expertise in the past was pushing a clutch in on a truck or making bricks.
Don't ever confuse that with 35 years of professional building experience.
You are not in my league and never will be regardless of how many YouTube videos you watch.
Stick to what you do know instead of your complete ignorance, meaning your education is lacking in the building arena.
I was building projects that you can't fathom while you were pushing a clutch in on a truck.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

I cannot imagine using 1/2 inch ply, unless it was 40 plies.




Danaus29 said:


> When we had our roof replaced shortly after buying this house we had a few arguments with our contractor. He kept saying 1/2 inch plywood was fine, despite the fact that the old sheathing was sagging between the tresses. The current 3/4 inch plywood has lasted longer than the original roofing did.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Go to a woodworkers site and read the posts about LICENSED electricians who, hired for their expertise, wired a hobby shop to code. That is, installed fourteen gauge for the outlets, "because that's all the code called for." When done, the guys couldn't run their larger equipment, until they had twelve gauge runs installed across the surface.

Jump to roofing. Many is the roofer who'd think you an idiot for wanting that one more nail in each piece laid down (tests indicate roofs with that extra nail will take winds of up to fifty miles and hour higher than those without them).

THEN there is the ham. The little girl asked her mom why she cut the ends off. Mom said she learned it from her mom, so she should ask grandma. Grandma said that's easy - it wouldn't fit in the pan.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Kelly Craig said:


> Go to a woodworkers site and read the posts about LICENSED electricians who, hired for their expertise, wired a hobby shop to code. That is, installed fourteen gauge for the outlets, "because that's all the code called for." When done, the guys couldn't run their larger equipment, until they had twelve gauge runs installed across the surface.
> 
> Jump to roofing. Many is the roofer who'd think you an idiot for wanting that one more nail in each piece laid down (tests indicate roofs with that extra nail will take winds of up to fifty miles and hour higher than those without them).
> 
> THEN there is the ham. The little girl asked her mom why she cut the ends off. Mom said she learned it from her mom, so she should ask grandma. Grandma said that's easy - it wouldn't fit in the pan.


I call BS on the electrician story. Wiring to code and to a wiring diagram is not that difficult. Not much difference in 12 and 14 gauge wire.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Our "licensed" engineer's plans were rejected by the planning department because he didn't show how he was tying the addition to the existing house. It dawned on me, he didn't show how he was handling the opening to the existing house either (my plan was us install the truss end supports in the attic and over a load bearing wall.

A buddy, a developer put it very well: "you should get into handyman and remodel work, a lot of the stuff being put out by licensed and bonded contractors is garbage." His whole point was, I do take time to learn how to do things, but many professionals do not.




Elevenpoint said:


> I would never build a house for your daughter based upon her "research or specifications".
> Her licensed engineer or architect?
> Yes then we're good.
> Not hers ever.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Curious why clips would not work on a roof where plywood joins in the gaps? Even sheet rock has tape and mud to join where edges meet under air. Too, a plywood counter top gets biscuits for both alignment and to stop the unsupported areas over gaps from the tendency to bend/wow under weight. In other words, do you think it overkill and no place at all?

As to rust. it would seem that problem would be GREATLY reduced by insuring the attic is at the same temp as the other side of the roof, which we do to avoid ice dams and so on.





Elevenpoint said:


> Thank you.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> I'm a boy to you being an asshole.
> You will never give me advice or suggestions in any fashion towards any facet of building.
> Your expertise in the past was pushing a clutch in on a truck or making bricks.
> Don't ever confuse that with 35 years of professional building experience.
> ...



Ooooh,

I guess I struck a nerve with a Tinker Toy Boy.

Since we're comparing Pee Pees.

Farmer, Warehouseman, Arc, MIG, TIG welder, Machinist, Dairyman, Beef cattleman, Sand molded brickmaker, Law enforcement officer, Rainbow trout fisheryman, Portion controlled meat cutter, Construction/heavy equipment operator/transporter, International class-eight truck transporter.

Oh, by the by, a genuwine truck driver only needs the clutch to get the rig rolling... up or downshifting.

I don't have you confused with anything, I've got you pegged as an insecure poser, that plays in the T-Ball league.

I've got a brother that stayed in Arizona pounding nails after I left the trade pursuing the dream of farm ownership. 

He's got 45 years in. He's got his Arizona general contractor's license in soils, (going into raw land and installing roads, curbs, gutters and everything it takes to turn the project over to vertical... ready to build.) he also has his general contractor's license in vertical, ground up construction.

He can quote codes in his sleep, read prints through the backside of his eyelids and build with his eyes closed.

I don't need YouTube. I've got Mark.

Unlike you, he doesn't blow about what he knows. He just gets 'er done, expertly, to code, with finesse and style. 

I wouldn't hire a whistlebritches like you to build a doghouse without expecting to have to R&R half of it.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Kelly Craig said:


> Curious why clips would not work on a roof where plywood joins in the gaps? Even sheet rock has tape and mud to join where edges meet. Too, a plywood counter top gets biscuits for both alignment and to stop the unsupported areas over gaps to reduce the tendency of the sheet product from bending under weight. In other words, do you think it overkill?
> 
> As to rust. it would seem that problem would be GREATLY reduced by insuring the attic is at the same temp as the other side of the roof, which we do to avoid ice dams and so on.



If there is a moisture buildup in an attic it is likely due to a lack of proper ventilation, or introduction of moisture via leaks, etc.

*Common Causes Of Moisture In The Attic*


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> I call BS on the electrician story. Wiring to code and to a wiring diagram is not that difficult.* Not much difference in 12 and 14 gauge wire.*


So now you're an expert Sparky too?

There is a fair amount of difference between 14 and 12 gauge wire.

Unless you don't care if the wire overheats, burns the house down and turns the inhabitants into crispy critters.

*The amperage capacities for standard Non-Metallic (NM) cable is as follows:*


14gauge wire – 15 amps
12gauge wire – 20 amps
10gauge wire – 30 amps

How many amps can a 14 gauge wire handle?
You can run 150 amps through a 14 gauge, copper wire, though you’d probably melt all of the insulation off and it wouldn’t be fun to touch it. *The reality is, that 14 gauge wire is rated for 15 amps at a temperature range of 60ºC, which is pretty much the standard for residential areas.*

What is the Max amps for 12 AWG wire?
*Under the National Electric Code, for most usage of most types of 12 AWG COPPER wide, the max rating is 20 amps*. ALUMINUM under the same conditions WHERE ALLOWED the max rating is 15 amps. In both cases, that rating has to be lowered 20% for a circuit that is in continuous duty, to 16 and 12 amps respectively. 2.1K views

@Kelly Craig


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> So now you're an expert Sparky too?
> 
> There is a fair amount of difference between 14 and 12 gauge wire.
> 
> ...


You would not give me a lesson when it comes to the NEC.
Stick to truck driving and bricks.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> Ooooh,
> 
> I guess I struck a nerve with a Tinker Toy Boy.
> 
> ...


Don't have to worry about hiring me, I don't work for fools like you.
Stick to subjects you have some knowledge about, building sure isn't one of them.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> You would not give me a lesson when it comes to the NEC.
> Stick to truck driving and bricks.



Here ya go.

Describes you to a T.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> Don't have to worry about hiring me, I don't work for fools like you.
> Stick to subjects you have some knowledge about, building sure isn't one of them.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> Here ya go.
> 
> Describes you to a T.
> 
> View attachment 106904


You do have a lengthy list of occupations, apparently you were fired quite a bit.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> View attachment 106908


Everyone knows the answer is one cup.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> You do have a lengthy list of occupations, apparently you were fired quite a bit.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> Sarcasm is wasted on the dull witted.
> 
> They also say, "Them that can't... Teach."
> 
> ...


This speaks volumes about your ignorance.
If you were ever involved in residential construction you would have known that you are primarily dealing with a woman throughout the project when your working for a couple.
Two projects last year will both have more work this year, on one her husband has never asked about anything and the other he said whatever she wants.
Your plumbing story sounds BS.
Besides a change order a builder should have very little interaction with subcontractors.
They should all have a set of prints to work from and shouldn't need help from the builder.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> This speaks volumes about your ignorance.
> If you were ever involved in residential construction you would have known that you are primarily dealing with a woman throughout the project when your working for a couple.
> Two projects last year will both have more work this year, on one her husband has never asked about anything and the other he said whatever she wants.
> Your plumbing story sounds BS.
> ...


Daughter is single.

House is a custom build.

Contractor is a weaselly little Russian immigrant that oversold himself as competent and trustworthy.

Reality is, he is neither competent, nor trustworthy.

His company is 'Nepotism R Us' as his subs are nearly all relatives.

Exterior water hydrant account is fact.

Not certain of all bid details, however, she has purchased several things and transported them to the site, so she is definitely covering any cost differentials.

You obviously ain't from here and appear to know nothing about what the norm is here, and at the very least you are oblivious to the particulars of the working relationship between my daughter and her builder.

From the way you present you must be suffering from altitude sickness and nosebleeds from your lofty, high-horse perch.

Here's your sign...


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

I run hot water to a spigot outside on every house...


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> Daughter is single.
> 
> House is a custom build.
> 
> ...


Your not certain of all the bid details?
Then why comment on a bid you don't know about?
FYI, I've been building in the Ozarks for quite awhile and just might know more than you about it.
You post memes when your ignorance is exposed, try and fix that.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> Your not certain of all the bid details?
> Then why comment on a bid you don't know about?
> FYI, I've been building in the Ozarks for quite awhile and just might know more than you about it.
> You post memes when your ignorance is exposed, try and fix that.


The truth finally comes out.

A "contractor" in the Ozarks.

That means that you probably have a set of nail bags and possibly a four-foot out-of-plumb level.

And a contractor's license.

Impressive


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> The truth finally comes out.
> 
> A "contractor" in the Ozarks.
> 
> ...


The first 20 plus years in an area that was by permit, inspections, and everyone licensed.
After 40 years of boots on the jobsite, endless interactions with architect's, engineer's, building permits and inspections, customers, etc. I don't need to answer to a fool like you.
Here's some good advice.
Better to keep your mouth shut and thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> The first 20 plus years in an area that was by permit, inspections, and everyone licensed.
> After 40 years of boots on the jobsite, endless interactions with architect's, engineer's, building permits and inspections, customers, etc. I don't need to answer to a fool like you.
> Here's some good advice.
> Better to keep your mouth shut and thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.


Ooooh Mark Twain,

Back atcha.











Here's your song Bob.


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

Elevenpoint said:


> You would not give me a lesson when it comes to the NEC.
> Stick to truck driving and bricks.


Is there even a point to using 14 gauge? 

The savings is minimal in a whole house rewire.


----------



## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint, remember when you were all but bragging about being the world's most knowledgeable guy on matters of building?

FIRST, it is obvious I am to electrical, with regard to you, what you claim to be to others and regarding carpentry. I started playing with electrons back around 70. I was a marine electrician at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard [PSNS]. From there, I went to Keyport Naval Torpedo Station [NTS, now NUWES], where I added to my knowledge about electronics.

From that, I will say, contrary to your erroneous assertion, there, DAMN SURE, is a huge difference between fourteen and twelve gauge wire, just as there is between twelve and ten. Many codes allow fourteen gauge to outlets, though it can only handle fifteen amps. Twelve, on the other hand, can handle five more amps.

Go look, carefully, at outlets for fifteen and twenty amp circuits. You will note a huge difference in their configuration, with some exceptions.

Keep in mind, for this discussion, no wire should run at capacity, so that fifteen amp wire is, very often, undersized for outlets.

A fourteen is fine for outlets in the average front room, to run a table lamp and a vacuum. On the other hand, only a fool would pretend things will not change and no one would ever set up a sound and video system, or a space heater, that would tax it.

From there, we could move to the kitchen, where toasters, microwaves and other appliance will tax a circuit, even if nothing else is on them, but which there, often, is.

Move to a garage and, not thinking ahead is why planners to tradesmen, often become laughingstock. There, the same minimal code is often found, though someone might run a space heater, a battery charger, OR set up a little machine or woodworking shop.

Codes are nothing more than minimums. There is nothing wrong with exceeding them, generally speaking. 

If I hadn't exceeded code minimums, I couldn't run two of my three dust collectors, my cabinet saw, long bed jointer, 17" bandsaw and so on. For that matter, thinking ahead, I installed two hundred amp service just in the little 1,800 square foot shop (years in, only a few of the twenty-four slots are yet open).

Code would have let us build the shop with 2x4 walls, but by going to 2x6's, we were able to add insulation and stay off, somewhat, ever rising heating and cooling costs.


On the matter of home building, everyone here should remember anyone building homes for a living MUST have a significant knowledge about plumbing, electrical, insulation, roofing, framing, sheetrock, cabinetry, and so on. Without that, they are just a framer, roofer or what-have-you, and are in no way qualified to tell others how to do their trades.

On that electrician thing, I have three friends who are electricians. The difference between me and them is, my shop, and I had experience in electronics they didn't. All three of electrician friends claimed I only needed one hundred amp service and was wasting money. Only down the road did they understand what I was trying to get across to them (they were "this is the code type folk), that I needed more than what code called for.

Now, they see: A friend might be over and running the big bandsaw and one of the two (fifteen amp, running) dust collectors, for thirty amps. I might be running the cabinet saw and the other [fifteen amp] collector. Now we are to sixty amps. Add to this the radio, for five amps, about forty four foot LED lights, and a heater or air conditioner. I might be running my copper plating station, which is good for five amps (small stuff). Maybe the neighbor kid is outside running a weed eater (yes, all mine are electric) and the step van might be tied to a charger. It doesn't take a genius to recognize a hundred amp panel would be over taxed, and that there is good reason to try to anticipate future needs and conditions.


On home building, we, already, addressed the fact you should not be advising anyone on electrical matters during the construction of their home. So, let's jump back to carpentry and at cabinetry, or even just hanging a towel holder.

When I remodeled our home, and the rock was off the walls, I added 2x's to make it easier to hang cabinets laden with Fiesta ware. Too, I added 2x's where I thought towel holders, grab bars and even closet rods would go.

If a homeowner demanded things like blocking for cabinets or upgraded wiring and a builder naysayed it, it would be time to find another builder, if feasible. The one you have is an idiot with a government granted license.

Then there is one of my favorites I've heard over and over again: I / My husband has been building houses for XXXX years, so know/knows about finishes. This is as absurd as my experience with my friend, who owned at least five cedar mills. He insisted he didn't need to tend the cedar roof and siding on his home. As he put it, cedar lasts because of its natural protections.

I tried to explain to him the cedar lost much of its protection the day is was cut down and he needed to oil it (non-hardening oil) to replace lost moisture, which causes shrinking, thus cracking and splitting, to keep it pliable in the hot of summer (so it can be walked on without cracking and splitting) and to keep moisture out, which can freeze and cause cracking too. SEVERAL years later, he called asking what he needed to do to protect what remained of the roof shakes.

Just because someone is associated with certain trades does not mean they are qualified to speak on them, but, as noted, I've tried to share info on finishes and other maintenance tips with pro's who would have benefited, but their insisted on hanging on to their ignorance, suggesting it might be more than mere ignorance, in many situations.

Oh, and only an idiot presumes to know more about someone else's first hand experiences than they know.




Elevenpoint said:


> I call BS on the electrician story. Wiring to code and to a wiring diagram is not that difficult. Not much difference in 12 and 14 gauge wire.


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

My brothers new home we had two 200 amp panel boxes installed . The load was only 136 amps on one but he said he might build a shop near there. Like I said we over build and you have a better nights sleep...


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Yep, when my shop was built, a second bandsaw, a spindle sander, a carving machine, a copper plating station, and indoor sandblast station (filtered through a cyclone and filter, before being exhausted outside), another 3 horse dust collector and so on wasn't in the plans. Fifteen years later. . . . 




TripleD said:


> My brothers new home we had two 200 amp panel boxes installed . The load was only 136 amps on one but he said he might build a shop near there. Like I said we over build and you have a better nights sleep...


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

We are planning on a new service in our old farm house.

Right now all we have is a 60 amp service.

I need one 60 amp circuit just for my pottery kiln.

We will be doing a 200 amp service when we upgrade.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

@Tom Horn tell your daughter to tell her architect to get her the pdf format and put those plans on an Ipad. Saves labor and chiropractor fees.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

As far as rusted ply clips, a vented attic is what causes it. Humidity from the outside air gets into the attic and causes condensation. 

Now we have attics that are conditioned. It happens there because of poor insulation on the deck. 

My point was, why would you use them if you could exceed code, exceed clip strength and save money with blocks? Why take the chance?


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Kelly Craig said:


> Elevenpoint, remember when you were all but bragging about being the world's most knowledgeable guy on matters of building?
> 
> FIRST, it is obvious I am to electrical, with regard to you, what you claim to be to others and regarding carpentry. I started playing with electrons back around 70. I was a marine electrician at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard [PSNS]. From there, I went to Keyport Naval Torpedo Station [NTS, now NUWES], where I added to my knowledge about electronics.
> 
> ...


No jackass I never bragged I was the world's best carpenter.
Regarding electric 15 amp and 20 am is not much different if you were out in the world doing electric projects you would find many homes wired that way.
I don't wire 15 amp circuits anyway nor do any other electricians I know.
I buy commercial grade 20 amp receptacles from an electric supply house.
I've completed at least 1000 electrical projects to date that include new house wiring, renovations, repair, troubleshooting, etc. never had a complaint or a problem.
Thanks for the advice but I'm up to date on everything electric.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> No jackass I never bragged I was the world's best carpenter.
> Regarding electric 15 amp and 20 am is not much different if you were out in the world doing electric projects you would find many homes wired that way.
> I don't wire 15 amp circuits anyway nor do any other electricians I know.
> I buy commercial grade 20 amp receptacles from an electric supply house.
> ...


Here... Sounds like you could use some help.

It'll look better in the morning after you've slept on it.
That's as good as it gets.
You're making a big deal out of nothing.
I don't know how that happened.
No one else has ever complained before.
The last guy wasn't any good.
This has never ever happened to me before.
You don't appreciate my services?!
No one will notice that.
It's an old house, you have to expect that.
We'll take care of that at the end.
That wasn't in the plans.
I ran out of money and can't continue unless you give me more.
I'm still waiting on the supplier. (Translation: I haven't paid him yet.)
I thought I told you.
Didn't they tell you?
This is what you requested.
Don't worry, it wipes off.
1. I didn't do it. 

2. I'll be right over.

3. The checks in the mail.

4. I can start on your job tomorrow. 

5. I am licensed and insured.

6. I have over 25 *30 **35 40* years of experience (you started by saying you had 30 year's experience, then you went to 35, now it's 40)

7. My partner has the contractor's license. 

8. I got pulled over this morning by a policeman. 

9. The lumberyard messed my order up. 

10. Of course I have testimonials. 

11. My contractor's license will be reinstated soon. 

12. What time did I say I was going to be there? 

13. The building inspector doesn't know what he's doing. 

14. We can use something else. 

15. Who ordered the wrong windows? 

16. The doughnut shop didn't open on time. 

17. We had to sit in traffic this morning. 

18. Don't worry about that, we didn't need it anyway. 

19. I will get that done by the end of the day. 

20. Who broke what? 

21. I never said that. 


My pickup broke down, is code for I had another job that paid better than yours to work on.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> Here... Sounds like you could use some help.
> 
> It'll look better in the morning after you've slept on it.
> That's as good as it gets.
> ...


No wonder your wife got rid of you.


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

I built gangways for oil rigs and doesn't make me an oil guy.
I built maintenance scaffolding for military air planes and doesn't make me a pilot.
I installed the handrails on the Rockingham Motor Speedway and doesn't make me a Nascar driver!!!


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> No wonder your wife got rid of you.


Actually, she did me a favor as she is the one of the most cold-hearted, self-centered, money-grubbing bit*ches that ever walked the face of the earth.

A woman right after your own heart.

She took up with a Missouri Highway patrolman and not too long after, this happened.

I bought a Mercedes convertible SLK and took off down Interstate 44, flooring it up to 80 mph and enjoying the wind blowing through what little hair I have left on my head.

'This is great,' I thought and floored it some more.

I looked in my rearview mirror and there was a Missouri Highway Patrol Trooper behind me, blue lights flashing and siren blasting. 'I can get away from him with no problem' I thought, and floored it some more and flew down the road at over 100 mph.

Then I thought, 'What am I doing? I'm too old for this kind of thing' and pulled over to the side of the highway and waited for the State Trooper to catch up with me.

The Trooper pulled in behind the Mercedes and walked up to me.

'Sir,' he said, looking at his watch. 'My shift ends in 30 minutes and today is Friday the 13th. If you can give me a reason why you were speeding; that I've never heard before, I'll let you go.'

I looked back at the Trooper and said, 'six months ago my wife dumped me for a State Trooper, and I thought you were bringing her back.'

The Trooper said, 'Have a nice day.

This reminded me of you.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

My thoughts also, you're the resident village idiot on HT.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> My thoughts also, you're the resident village idiot on HT.



I'm touched.

They say the imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

The fact that it is apparent that you lack the capacity for original thought yet have a self-important ego that won't quit, proves you to be hopelessly mired in The Dunning-Kruger Effect.

Candid shot of you heading for the jobsite.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Starting with your hissy fit about sheathing clips you reek of narcissistic personality disorder. Your full of yourself and that's about it.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> Starting with your hissy fit about sheathing clips


I don't believe that this would count as a "Hissy fit."


Tom Horn said:


> Funny thing that.
> 
> If you specify a particular material and are paying for it, why do contractors give you grief?
> 
> ...





Elevenpoint said:


> you reek of narcissistic personality disorder. Your full of yourself and that's about it.



Let's see how you measure up in the narcissism department..

*Narcissistic personality disorder*

Symptoms

Being overly boastful, exaggerating one’s own achievements



Elevenpoint said:


> I would never build a house for your daughter based upon her "research or specifications".
> Her licensed engineer or architect?
> Yes then we're good.
> Not hers ever.





Elevenpoint said:


> If she had no architect stamped plans from the beginning, and the idea was her research then yes I would be first out the door.
> My comments are based upon over 30 years of experience.


Pretending to be superior to others



Elevenpoint said:


> Stick with plywood, I'm not an OSB man.
> And don't hesitate to ask for advice, educating the uneducated is a part of my life.





Elevenpoint said:


> Your not certain of all the bid details?
> Then why comment on a bid you don't know about?
> FYI, I've been building in the Ozarks for quite awhile and just might know more than you about it.
> You post memes when your ignorance is exposed, try and fix that.


Lack of empathy for others



Elevenpoint said:


> This speaks volumes about your ignorance.
> If you were ever involved in residential construction you would have known that you are primarily dealing with a woman throughout the project when your working for a couple.
> Two projects last year will both have more work this year, on one her husband has never asked about anything and the other he said whatever she wants.
> Your plumbing story sounds BS.
> ...



Looking down on others as inferior



Elevenpoint said:


> You do have a lengthy list of occupations, apparently you were fired quite a bit.





Elevenpoint said:


> Don't have to worry about hiring me, I don't work for fools like you.
> Stick to subjects you have some knowledge about, building sure isn't one of them.


Monopolizing conversations



Elevenpoint said:


> I call BS on the electrician story. Wiring to code and to a wiring diagram is not that difficult. Not much difference in 12 and 14 gauge wire.


Impatient, angry, unhappy, depressed or has mood swings when criticized



Elevenpoint said:


> No wonder your wife got rid of you.



Easily disappointed when expected importance is not given



Elevenpoint said:


> My thoughts also, you're the resident village idiot on HT.


Always craves for “the best” in everything



Elevenpoint said:


> The first 20 plus years in an area that was by permit, inspections, and everyone licensed.
> After 40 years of boots on the jobsite, endless interactions with architect's, engineer's, building permits and inspections, customers, etc. I don't need to answer to a fool like you.
> Here's some good advice.
> Better to keep your mouth shut and thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.


Has a very fragile self-esteem



Elevenpoint said:


> No jackass I never bragged I was the world's best carpenter.
> Regarding electric 15 amp and 20 am is not much different if you were out in the world doing electric projects you would find many homes wired that way.
> I don't wire 15 amp circuits anyway nor do any other electricians I know.
> I buy commercial grade 20 amp receptacles from an electric supply house.
> ...


You fill all of the boxes.

You are a textbook example.


----------



## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

You are in a catch 22. You, really, should leave this discussion, before it dawns on you how utterly stupid your responses are.

As to your statement "I never bragged I was the world's best carpenter," you're making headway. Keep going.

Let's clear the air - you are not an electrician. You've made that more than obvious. I don't know [or care] what state you're in, but it's hard to believe any L&I agency would tolerate you playing with amps and volts in someone's home or business, based on the information you shared. In fact, claiming you've done a thousand electrical projects, rightfully and based on your posts, scares more than one of us with a bit of knowledge of things electric.

If electricians you know will not wire fifteen amp circuits, they don't belong in the profession and you should get to know some different electricians.

Fifteen amps is fine for lighting and other low draw circuits. I have three in my shop, but all they do is power lighting. I have about five in the house for the same purpose. With the exception of the fifty amp heating circuit, and five thirty amp, two forty circuits, every other circuit is a twenty amp circuit.

HINT: Fourteen gauge wire and fifteen amp breakers exist and are common in stores and homes for good reason.

Claiming I'm not out in the world is beyond grasping, but seems consistent with your presumptive nature.

Oh, and "commercial" grade, as often as not, just means cheap, like the stab outlets found in so many homes. 



Elevenpoint said:


> No jackass I never bragged I was the world's best carpenter.
> Regarding electric 15 amp and 20 am is not much different if you were out in the world doing electric projects you would find many homes wired that way.
> I don't wire 15 amp circuits anyway nor do any other electricians I know.
> I buy commercial grade 20 amp receptacles from an electric supply house.
> ...


----------



## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Tom Horn said:


> Here... Sounds like you could use some help.
> 
> It'll look better in the morning after you've slept on it.
> That's as good as it gets.
> ...


----------



## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

CRAP. Now I have to rethink a few things. Anyone want to buy a used roadrunner outfit?




TripleD said:


> I built gangways for oil rigs and doesn't make me an oil guy.
> I built maintenance scaffolding for military air planes and doesn't make me a pilot.
> I installed the handrails on the Rockingham Motor Speedway and doesn't make me a Nascar driver!!!


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> I don't believe that this would count as a "Hissy fit."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have no empathy for fools, I get a kick out of exposing them as such.
Of course I have more experience, knowledge, and expertise in building than you and that's quite apparent. Actually I forgot more than you so I guess I am superior to you.
Usually when someone's teetering at the edge of the cliff like you, I give them a swift kick instead of a hand.
Monopolizing conversations?
You've posted more times in a year than I have in over 12 years.
Blowhard much?


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

TripleD said:


> I built gangways for oil rigs and doesn't make me an oil guy.
> I built maintenance scaffolding for military air planes and doesn't make me a pilot.
> I installed the handrails on the Rockingham Motor Speedway and doesn't make me a Nascar driver!!!


Hey, you didn't build that.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Kelly Craig said:


> CRAP. Now I have to rethink a few things. Anyone want to buy a used roadrunner outfit?


----------



## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

[QUOTE


----------



## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Tom Horn said:


> View attachment 106942


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> I have no empathy for fools, I get a kick out of exposing them as such.
> Of course I have more experience, knowledge, and expertise in building than you and that's quite apparent. Actually I forgot more than you so I guess I am superior to you.
> Usually when someone's teetering at the edge of the cliff like you, I give them a swift kick instead of a hand.
> Monopolizing conversations?
> ...


Yeah, I know that you are eating your heart out because you can't be me.

The proof?

"You've posted more times in a year than I have in over 12 years."

You are obsessed with wanting to be me.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Those who do not believe in using sheathing clips need to make sure they are not required in your area. Codes change, regulations change.

At the time our roof was installed, clips were required for the material we were using and the span between the tresses.

The first few roofers that looked at the original roof wanted to put new shingles over the old saggy sheathing. Those contractors were politely told to leave, just like the contractor that insisted any repairs to the current sheathing would be done with 1/2 inch (really 7/16) OSB.

In this area you really have to keep an eye on the work crew. Many times people have caught the crew cutting corners and not following building code. There are few inspections so the contractors do take the cheap way out.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Kelly Craig said:


> You are in a catch 22. You, really, should leave this discussion, before it dawns on you how utterly stupid your responses are.
> 
> As to your statement "I never bragged I was the world's best carpenter," you're making headway. Keep going.
> 
> ...





Kelly Craig said:


> You are in a catch 22. You, really, should leave this discussion, before it dawns on you how utterly stupid your responses are.
> 
> As to your statement "I never bragged I was the world's best carpenter," you're making headway. Keep going.
> 
> ...





Kelly Craig said:


> You are in a catch 22. You, really, should leave this discussion, before it dawns on you how utterly stupid your responses are.
> 
> As to your statement "I never bragged I was the world's best carpenter," you're making headway. Keep going.
> 
> ...


Well Tom Jr let's go over your previous post of your three electrician friends that insisted you only needed a 100 amp service for a woodworking shop but only due to your "electronics" knowledge you convinced them you needed a 200 amp service. They were " by the code electrician's".
Sure they were.
That's downright plain silly talk.
And I need new electrician friends?
Because we over engineer our wiring?
15 amp circuits are obsolete in our book the same as a 100 amp service.
In fact I've never installed a 100 amp service.
The fact that you think you will educate me on what a high quality commercial outlet is or isn't shows your level of ignorance.
Educate yourself, stupid is a handicap.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> Those who do not believe in using sheathing clips need to make sure they are not required in your area. Codes change, regulations change.
> 
> At the time our roof was installed, clips were required for the material we were using and the span between the tresses.
> 
> ...


Yes, check your local ordinances. They can vary from one elected busybody to the next elected busybody Codes though, actual codes, dont require them in most cases. IBC states that 1/2" plywood has a span rating of 28" on a roof deck(but only if installed correctly with the grain perpendicular to the rafters). So, if your rafters are on 24" centers you dont need them according to international code. 5/8" plywood has a span rating of 32". That means that any builder that uses them (or the 20x stronger blocks that I use) are exceeding code already.


Everyone does one or the other because we are just that good.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Elevenpoint said:


> Well Tom Jr let's go over your previous post of your three electrician friends that insisted you only needed a 100 amp service for a woodworking shop but only due to your "electronics" knowledge you convinced them you needed a 200 amp service. They were " by the code electrician's".
> Sure they were.
> That's downright plain silly talk.
> And I need new electrician friends?
> ...


My last job has a 2800amp main breaker. I told them they shouldn't have added that extra hole in the outhouse.


----------



## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Please take time to insure your posts stay in line with the topic and have some coherence.

I know that will confuse you, so keep it simple, for your own benefit: I am the one who posted about what you call an "over engineered" system. That is, a two hundred amp system, so I didn't over tax the panel.

Inasmuch as I gave you actual amperage of equipment running in my shop at a given time, you should have been able to add up the numbers and figure out I was right.

Yet another hint to help you: While the average electrician may know code, they do not know more about my shop and the equipment in it than I do.

Of course, now that you're trying to paint yourself the resident electrical genius too, through your thinly veiled posts that appear purposed to that end, it will be interesting to hear more about how you are an expert on my equipment, including the load they put on any panel.

You missed it (surprise), but my background is not just in electronics for the federal government, it, also, was in marine electrical, again, for the federal government.

You are an imaginative character. Not good at it, but imaginative. (Re: "15 amp circuits are obsolete in our book the same as a 100 amp service."). 

The safe money is on not one of the so called electricians you know would back such an asinine statement in writing. In fact, if they exist, other than in your mind or misrepresentations, they'd, likely, tell you to review local code and note the thousands of words dedicated to fifteen amp circuits.

Rather than running your mouth, tell us why, for example, a dedicated circuit, per code, for a fridge or dishwasher, or bath, for example is outdated.

On matters of the matter of the quality of items promoted as commercial, again, you prove your ignorance, but which appears to have moved from mere ignorance 



Elevenpoint said:


> Well Tom Jr let's go over your previous post of your three electrician friends that insisted you only needed a 100 amp service for a woodworking shop but only due to your "electronics" knowledge you convinced them you needed a 200 amp service. They were " by the code electrician's".
> Sure they were.
> That's downright plain silly talk.
> And I need new electrician friends?
> ...


----------



## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

I'll see your Walmart breaker and raise you a K-Mart special.



mreynolds said:


> My last job has a 2800amp main breaker. I told them they shouldn't have added that extra hole in the outhouse.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Kelly Craig said:


> Please take time to insure your posts stay in line with the topic and have some coherence.
> 
> I know that will confuse you, so keep it simple, for your own benefit: I am the one who posted about what you call an "over engineered" system. That is, a two hundred amp system, so I didn't over tax the panel.
> 
> ...


Quote the code from the NEC that gave your 3 electrician friends the idea that your shop was to be 100 amps "by code".
All dedicated circuits are 20 amp, I never said they were outdated.
None of us are interested in the "thousands of words dedicated to 15 amp circuits".
Try to grasp this, a 15 and 20 amp breaker are the same price, the upgrade to 12 guage wire is insignificant and the customer gets an upgrade. No complaints yet.
And again I don't install 100 amp service and any electrician much less three wanted to install a 100 amp service in a woodworking shop?
The electricians I know wouldn't.
Are the electricians you know too stupid to do a load calculation?
You don't make any sense.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Kelly Craig said:


> I'll see your Walmart breaker and raise you a K-Mart special.


Qualifier here: I am not an electrician. When I was a junior and senior in high school, I worked for one and he would drop us off and then go fishing all day. Me and his son, who was a year younger than me, would do all the work. His son started when he was 11 like I did in carpentry at the same age with our fathers. I was rebelling against the woodworkers of America and was going to become an electrician instead. This was before GFCI and arc arrestors. Zinsco Breakers was a norm. 

Anyway, that fool went fishing and left us to do a Kmart with 277 lights in it. I didn't know the difference. 2 wires to the ballast.....no problem. Until it knocked me off the ladder. I woke up in the truck with a fan on me. I was blue from the lack of O2 when I quit breathing for a while. They called me the "blue light special" of the hour once they were reasonably sure I would live. I never told my father because he would have said I told you so. 

I went to driving nails the very next day.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

"Zinsco Breakers," religious cows. . . . 

On the ZAP via the plasma device, yeeeeee haw.

I worked for the Army doing radio repair, subsequent to its abysmal training program. While working a radio, a fellow "radio mechanic" keyed the set while I was working on it. Did you know a transmitter can put out 10,000 volts, when keyed?

NEVER found the screw driver I was using.

In other words, Ican feel your pain.



mreynolds said:


> Zinsco Breakers was a norm.
> 
> Anyway, that fool went fishing and left us to do a Kmart with 277 lights in it. I didn't know the difference. 2 wires to the ballast.....no problem. Until it knocked me off the ladder. I woke up in the truck with a fan on me. I was blue from the lack of O2 when I quit breathing for a while. They called me the "blue light special" of the hour once they were reasonably sure I would live. I never told my father because he would have said I told you so.
> 
> I went to driving nails the very next day.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Kelly Craig said:


> "Zinsco Breakers," religious cows. . . .
> 
> On the ZAP via the plasma device, yeeeeee haw.
> 
> ...


My brother still has Zinsco in his house plus fuses. I upgraded mine to 12 gauge with the exception of 2 rooms. 

Well, I had a professional do it. I don't want to be blue anymore.


----------



## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Kid, you, obviously, do not understand how the electric code works. It does not tell electricians they have to install a 60, 100, 200 or 400 panel for, for example, a five hundred or one thousand square foot shop.

You can install a 60 amp panel, but are sorely limited to the circuits you can run. You can buy one hundred amp panels all day long and install one of those too. The same facts apply - you are limited in what you can run off it.

If your building doesn't need HVAC, you, certainly, do not need the same amp support you do with a heating and cooling unit.

You got me on the dedicated circuits for fridges and dishwashers. It's past my bedtime. Cool, you got one, and I was wrong.

All that aside, try to keep up with yourself. You keep arguing, then switching your statement. You said fifteen amp circuits are outdated. 

The ignorance/stupidity of such a statement shows in considering simple things like storage sheds. WHY would someone build a two hundred square foot shed (most codes don't have the same rules for buildings at or under a couple hundred square feet ) and run twenty amp service to feed a light bulb? Yes, some might want an outlet, but many is the shed that has only a light bulb.

Now, go buy some fourteen gauge, then go buy some twelve gauge. See if they are the same price per foot.

As to load calculations, not everything is done that way. Many small shops, with wiring that meets code, have nothing more than a couple outlets. 

For future reference, it is not up to you to insist someone must install 240 outlets and 120 outlets, and code doesn't require someone to take FULL advantage of what can be pulled from a panel.




Elevenpoint said:


> Quote the code from the NEC that gave your 3 electrician friends the idea that your shop was to be 100 amps "by code".
> All dedicated circuits are 20 amp, I never said they were outdated.
> None of us are interested in the "thousands of words dedicated to 15 amp circuits".
> Try to grasp this, a 15 and 20 amp breaker are the same price, the upgrade to 12 guage wire is insignificant and the customer gets an upgrade. No complaints yet.
> ...


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> Yeah, I know that you are eating your heart out because you can't be me.
> 
> The proof?
> 
> ...


That made me throw up a bit.
Your sicker than I thought.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Waaay too much testosterone.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Kelly Craig said:


> Kid, you, obviously, do not understand how the electric code works. It does not tell electricians they have to install a 60, 100, 200 or 400 panel for, for example, a five hundred or one thousand square foot shop.
> 
> You can install a 60 amp panel, but are sorely limited to the circuits you can run. You can buy one hundred amp panels all day long and install one of those too. The same facts apply - you are limited in what you can run off it.
> 
> ...


It is apparent you know very little about NEC, load calculations, etc.
Even as something as simple as commercial grade outlets and switches your lost.
I guess a hospital grade outlet is the same as the back stab cheap outlets you speak of?
Your also backpedaling on your claim that 3 of your "code type folks" electrician friends hade to be convinced by you to go "above code" for your shop requirements due to your electronics knowledge, but now you admit it has nothing to do with code.
Now here is what I will believe.
Three competent electricians had to convince you that your shop requirements would not be met by a 100 service based upon load calculations and a 200 amp service was needed for now and the future.
If not find new electrician friends.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I have 12 gauge running to my shed. It gets cold out there in the winter and hot in the summer. Heaters and ac units won't work on 14 gauge wire, they tend to trip breakers.

All this debate and bickering did give me a little knowledge. I found out that in Ohio, one does not have to be a licensed electrician to work on residential wiring. Any idiot can claim to be a general contractor and do electrical service for people. I offer a tip to Ohio residents. If you need to hire an electrician, research the basic requirements of what you want done to make sure the contractor you hire is doing it at least to code.

I had to find the building code requirements and mark the placement of my basement stair hand rail before the work was done. To be fair, hubby was at his paying job too much to check it himself. 

I have learned a lot by looking up building and electrical code requirements. If this house would ever have to be brought up to current code, it would be cheaper to raze and rebuild. It's costing enough just to comply with replacement systems that are supposed to be done to code.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> I have 12 gauge running to my shed. It gets cold out there in the winter and hot in the summer. Heaters and ac units won't work on 14 gauge wire, they tend to trip breakers.
> 
> All this debate and bickering did give me a little knowledge. I found out that in Ohio, one does not have to be a licensed electrician to work on residential wiring. Any idiot can claim to be a general contractor and do electrical service for people. I offer a tip to Ohio residents. If you need to hire an electrician, research the basic requirements of what you want done to make sure the contractor you hire is doing it at least to code.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I bought some 10 gauge wire back in December and it was a dollar fifty a foot. Cant even imagine what it costs now.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> That made me throw up a bit.
> Your sicker than I thought.


Well...

You are the one with the man crush/unrequited love problem.

Maybe your nausea was the result of the fact that I just don't reciprocate your feelings.

Shoot, with your caustic nature, I don't even want to be your friend.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> Well...
> 
> You are the one with the man crush/unrequited love problem.
> 
> ...


Again, much more sick that I thought you were.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

mreynolds said:


> Yeah, I bought some 10 gauge wire back in December and it was a dollar fifty a foot. Cant even imagine what it costs now.


When I bought the 12, it was cheaper to buy the extension cord than the wire and ends. I think Lowes fubbed up on the price because I went back the next day to buy 3 more and they were gone!

Somewhere around here I have a roll of 14 which was intended to be used to run additional outlets on the extra circuits we gained when the service panel was upgraded. It was really cheap 10 years ago when I bought it. I hate to think of what even that would cost now. The ceiling fan brackets have doubled in price since we installed ours a couple years ago.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Elevenpoint said:


> And if everyone would do it my way we would have no problems.
> I framed my roof 16"oc with 1/2" actual plywood and no clips.
> Never have clipped a roof and never will.
> I've seen plenty of 7/16" OSB on 24"oc rafters with clips but they do nothing to stop the deflection.


Good points but clips on 24 inch center with 7/16 is a code required in many places. As others have already posted. Code is just the minimum to be done. Your rafters on 16 inch centers is a good example of exceeding code for a better end product.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> Again, much more sick that I thought you were.



I got your message Yoda.

The cat is out of the bag.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> I got your message Yoda.
> 
> The cat is out of the bag.
> 
> View attachment 107008


Do you know what projection is?
The shoe fits.
If you have a compelling need to come out of the closet right here on HT, go right ahead.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

*TIME OUT!!! GO TO YOUR CORNERS AND TAKE A BREAK!*


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Waaay too much testosterone.







@Danaus29


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Danaus29 said:


> *TIME OUT!!! GO TO YOUR CORNERS AND TAKE A BREAK!*


Yo Adrian.

Mickey told me that I had to go the distance.










Besides @Elevenpoint is too funny.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

It don't mean you're weak if you turn the other cheek.


----------



## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

PLEASE, quit pretending to be stupid (okay, maybe it's not an act) by holding yourself out to know more than you do.

Do not to confuse hospital grade outlets, not anywhere mentioned in these posts, with common commercial grade outlets, which includes 15 and 20 amp outlets, and many that are cheap stab outlets.

HINT: [Typing is wonderful, for you, it can be like having someone talk slow to you]. ALL across the several, united states and the District of Columbia, electricians can be found installing cheap, so called commercial grade outlets in houses, versus quality outlets that use the bent wire or clamp method of securing the conductor to the outlet. 

Back pedal? I back pedaled nothing. Rather, it appears you are attempting to flip your acts around and claim I did what you did. All three electrician friends advised me based on minimum needs. Only after actually seeing my shop did they understand why I wanted are larger panel. A VERY common thing in the industry, which you'd know, if you'd actually worked on as many houses as you would have us believe.

Said another way, you are so desirous of being right you will, foolishly, try to re-write others posts. It is clear, from reading them, I insisted on going above code minimum, not the electrician friends.

If you had better than the capacity of the urban myth goldfish, you'd remember I played with electrical AND electronics, possibly before you even knew what they are.

PART of why I needed a two hundred amp is, I wanted more circuits. For example, each wall, with the outlets and waist height, has two 120 VAC, 20 amp circuit, so the outlets can alternate between circuits, as one looks down the wall. 

This allows one to plug an amp eating miter saw to one outlet and a dust collector to the one next to it, because they are not on the same circuit.

Then there are the overhead lights with one three way and one four way switching circuit (if one goes out the other is likely to remain on, so you aren't caught running a three horse cabinet saw with the lights going out) in the working area of the shop. This in addition to exterior lighting circuits (you cannot put several motion lights on the same circuit, because, or they will not operate properly, unless you spend a WHOLE lot more money), and a storage area circuit.

While code lays out how to deal with circuits like those in my shop, it does not have pretty pictures of the specific layout, anymore than it does of a million other homes and shops.

For your future reference, two houses can be built exactly the same can have two COMPLETELY different electrical packages. One could have twice as many circuits and could even have 400 amp service, while the other only has 200 amp service.

Hell, are you even aware electrical, plumbing and other codes are private codes and merely adopted by towns, cities and states? 



Elevenpoint said:


> It is apparent you know very little about NEC, load calculations, etc.
> Even as something as simple as commercial grade outlets and switches your lost.
> I guess a hospital grade outlet is the same as the back stab cheap outlets you speak of?
> Your also backpedaling on your claim that 3 of your "code type folks" electrician friends hade to be convinced by you to go "above code" for your shop requirements due to your electronics knowledge, but now you admit it has nothing to do with code.
> ...


----------



## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Don't bother us, we're feeding the troll.













Danaus29 said:


> It don't mean you're weak if you turn the other cheek.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Kelly Craig said:


> PLEASE, quit pretending to be stupid (okay, maybe it's not an act) by holding yourself out to know more than you do.
> 
> Do not to confuse hospital grade outlets, not anywhere mentioned in these posts, with common commercial grade outlets, which includes 15 and 20 amp outlets, and many that are cheap stab outlets.
> 
> ...


You keep talking about code minimums when no such thing exists.
It's clear you don't know much.
I've been drawing building plans, electrical and plumbing diagrams for at least 20 years.
I spec it out, draw the plans and submit them for approval where need be.
You can't run multiple motion detectors on one circuit? Nonsense.
I doubt you know how to properly run three outlets on one circuit.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I would love to have 400 amp service. Baseboard heaters take up a lot of space on a 200 amp panel.


----------



## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

With each new post you make, it become increasingly obvious most people talk slow to you. At least until they figure out nothing is going help you understand even the simplest of things.

Go ask an electrical inspector what the smallest gauge conductor you can put on a household outlet is. Depending on the the area, he, or she will tell you must install "at least" fourteen gauge or twelve gauge. The big kids here, the ones who can add two plus two, recognize they've just been told the code minimum. If you doubt it, try installing sixteen gauge wire to ANY of your household outlets and see how that flies with an inspector.

Hell, try setting your electrical panel a couple feet off the floor, or garage outlets six inches off the floor. Said another way, you take BS and clueless, mix them until they're indistinguishable from each other, And you do it at levels most here would think not possible.

I really shouldn't be picking on a developmentally disabled person, but my policy with people like you is, if you're old enough to be out on your own, driving a car and, generally, doing things that could affect other people's lives, you don't get a break for being an idiot, when involves other people.

Now go put three motion detector lights on one circuit and see how it goes for you.



Elevenpoint said:


> You keep talking about code minimums when no such thing exists.


----------



## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

We did away with our old baseboards a herd of years back. We installed an HVAC (heat pump, five inch MERV 11 filters) and don't regret it at all.

The last big remodel I did, before retiring (about fifteen years ago), was a twenty-five hundred square foot, eighty-five year old farm house. 

MY contractor price on the HVAC system for it was forty-five hundred, parts, materials and installed. That included a Honeywell air scrubber, five inch filters, U.V. lights for the coils (they ONLY work on coils, to knock down mold, because air moves too fast in the system for them to disinfect it) and a computer controlled DC motor, so as the filter clogged, the motor could push harder, without burning up (within reason)).

For our little house, they wanted ten K. Uh huh.

The point is, there is a hell of a mark up, so get a contractor friend involved, or negotiate for a better deal.

Now, a few years later, I would add to that system what I added to mine - a Magnahelic gauge, to make it easy to monitor the condition of the filter, and to see which manufacturers filters load the system when fresh.

They install between the filter and the squirrel cage on home heating and cooling systems. For dust collectors, they tap into the intake AND have to be throttled down.

New, they are expensive, but I bought mine off E-bay on a tip from someone who knows such systems well.

I was using a manometer, including ones I made myself. They are CHEAP to make. You just need hose and liquid. If the draw is too great, ask for an IV drip valve and you can use it to throttle the vacuum down.



Danaus29 said:


> I would love to have 400 amp service. Baseboard heaters take up a lot of space on a 200 amp panel.


----------



## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

For the slow "type" (singular) here who cannot comprehend minimums, just ONE simple search result regarding code minimums for cirucits: 









Electrical Code Requirements for Outlets in the Home


Electrical code requirements for outlets provide guidelines for spacing and other issues. Learn how the current code affects outlet installation.




www.thespruce.com


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Kelly Craig said:


> With each new post you make, it become increasingly obvious most people talk slow to you. At least until they figure out nothing is going help you understand even the simplest of things.
> 
> Go ask an electrical inspector what the smallest gauge conductor you can put on a household outlet is. Depending on the the area, he, or she will tell you must install "at least" fourteen gauge or twelve gauge. The big kids here, the ones who can add two plus two, recognize they've just been told the code minimum. If you doubt it, try installing sixteen gauge wire to ANY of your household outlets and see how that flies with an inspector.
> 
> ...


You talk code minimum as to service and it doesn't exist.
Your babble about 16 gauge circuits, panel a few feet off the floor, outlets 6 inches off the ground are...well just mindless drivel.
You skipped the proper way to wire three outlets on one circuit, home run, or breaker.
Let's hear it.


----------



## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

SLOW
SLOW
SLOW

Troll, get your pigtail lessons elsewhere. We are done feeding you.




Elevenpoint said:


> You talk code minimum as to service and it doesn't exist.
> Your babble about 16 gauge circuits, panel a few feet off the floor, outlets 6 inches off the ground are...well just mindless drivel.
> You skipped the proper way to wire three outlets on one circuit, home run, or breaker.
> Let's hear it.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Kelly Craig said:


> For the slow "type" (singular) here who cannot comprehend minimums, just ONE simple search result regarding code minimums for cirucits:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have to Google that?
Again, you're sorely lacking knowledge.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Kelly Craig said:


> "Zinsco Breakers," religious cows. . . .
> 
> On the ZAP via the plasma device, yeeeeee haw.
> 
> ...


Sacred cows make the best hamburger.


----------



## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

What kind of programming genius sets up the three dots so your choices is "only show this user," or "report," neither of which is appropriate?


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Danaus29 said:


> When I bought the 12, it was cheaper to buy the extension cord than the wire and ends. I think Lowes fubbed up on the price because I went back the next day to buy 3 more and they were gone!
> 
> Somewhere around here I have a roll of 14 which was intended to be used to run additional outlets on the extra circuits we gained when the service panel was upgraded. It was really cheap 10 years ago when I bought it. I hate to think of what even that would cost now. The ceiling fan brackets have doubled in price since we installed ours a couple years ago.


14/2 Romex is $0.50 per foot.

Amazon.com : 14/2 romex 250 ft


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Kelly Craig said:


> SLOW
> SLOW
> SLOW
> 
> Troll, get your pigtail lessons elsewhere. We are done feeding you.


I've never been called a troll.
How long have you been here?
5 months?
Here's your sign💩


----------



## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

It, often, occurs we find ourselves surprised (blind sided) down the road.

I keep a roll of 300v, 12 gauge, stranded cord for tool cord replacement. A while back, there wasn't any, so had to settle for 600 volt, which is a pain to install on a grinder. Ran through that role and suffered sticker shock. It make me rethink having a roll hanging around to swap out cords on stationary and portable tools.

AND, "14/2 Romex is $0.50 per foot," OUCH.




Tom Horn said:


> 14/2 Romex is $0.50 per foot.
> 
> Amazon.com : 14/2 romex 250 ft


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Kelly Craig said:


> What kind of programming genius sets up the three dots so your choices is "only show this user," or "report," neither of which is appropriate?


That's only if you hit the three dots on another user.

If you hit the three dots on your posting you get and edit option too.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> Do you know what projection is?
> The shoe fits.
> If you have a compelling need to come out of the closet right here on HT, go right ahead.


For a pusillanimous prevaricator of dubious paternity, you are pretty funny. 

A soup bowl is deeper than your intellectual capacity, so you predictably resort to ad hominin by default.

It is obvious that it chafes you sore that you have run up on a Billy Goat Gruff, (two actually, when you count @Kelly Craig) who refuse to pay your toll.

I guess that you have been unchallenged in your building, "expertise" for long enough on HT that you have your bluff in and have a cadre of those who are bothered by watching you self-destruct in real time.

If they were following your postings, they would have plainly seen you go from claiming 30 years' experience (#39 · Mar 10, 2022 ) to 35 ( #50 · Mar 11, 2022 ) and then to 40( #71 · Mar 11, 2022 ) you are as confused as a chameleon in a bag of skittles regarding just your alleged "years of experience" in the trades... That speaks volumes.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Danaus29 said:


> It don't mean you're weak if you turn the other cheek.


Respectfully,

Very true.

But lets not forget this either.






I'm 65 and tired of a lifetime of restraint being interpreted as stupidity/cowardice.

Some folks don't learn until they come up against an immovable object.

This is one of those.

Dunning-Kruger bullies are revolting to me.

I was attempting to have a simple exchange of ideas until super-builder made the scene and did his best to destroy civil discourse with his smug self-importance.

He is not alone on HT, I'm learning who his cohorts are and when they show up accompanied by their destructive condescension I will not yield the field.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

That's my point - it'd be nice to eradicate trolls on MY line. 

I use the edit feature regularly to alter the likes of to / two / too, they're / their / there and so on [and my keyboard hates the Y key at times, along with some others (tried to get past eating up a keyboard every six months (keys wearing off, so I have to look away to find them), but, two years in, and a few hundred later. . . .).




Tom Horn said:


> That's only if you hit the three dots on another user.
> 
> If you hit the three dots on your posting you get and edit option too.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Tom Horn said:


> For a pusillanimous prevaricator of dubious paternity, you are pretty funny.
> 
> A soup bowl is deeper than your intellectual capacity, so you predictably resort to ad hominin by default.
> 
> ...


SNORT 

and, no brain no. . . .

He don't even know he done been bit, and it was like that rattler we tormented, when kids - poked it until it got so pissed it bit itself (saw its tail moving and, like the troll, got excited and bit itself).


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Kelly Craig said:


> That's my point - it'd be nice to eradicate trolls on MY line.
> 
> I use the edit feature regularly to alter the likes of to / two / too, they're / their / there and so on [and my keyboard hates the Y key at times, along with some others (tried to get past eating up a keyboard every six months (keys wearing off, so I have to look away to find them), but, two years in, and a few hundred later. . . .).


Yeah, 

After I post and re-read, I'm constantly going back and tweaking errors.

When the peanut gallery has nothing intellectual to respond with, they invariably go Grammar Nazi on you.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

@Kelly Craig, the ignore feature is found in settings under your user icon in the upper right at the top of the page. 

If there was an ignore thread feature I would use it on this one. I'm done with it.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> For a pusillanimous prevaricator of dubious paternity, you are pretty funny.
> 
> A soup bowl is deeper than your intellectual capacity, so you predictably resort to ad hominin by default.
> 
> ...


That would be correct.
First five years commercial contractors, next 5 years residential, and the last 30 on my own.
Your not Billy Goat Gruff, your the HT attention whore.
Neither of you has challenged me in any way, neither of you have any experience in any building trades.
Your self admitted construction knowledge is hitting your hand more than the nail.
As far as Tom Jr., I think he's close to having a stroke.
Both of you together don't have the knowledge and experience in building, electric, and plumbing that matches mine.
Truth be known, the consensus here is that your an idiot and Tom Jr has proven he is in just a short time, he has no real world jobsite, design, drawing plans of any electric system, or any actual installation of any electrical system. Not much knowledge except for how fast he can Google.
I would switch the conversation to the Uniform Plumbing Code but that would be a complete disaster and the end for both of you. Yea boy, you two really did a bang up job on me and I've learned my lesson.
Don't get involved in conversations on the internet with two idiots like you.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> That would be correct.
> First five years commercial contractors, next 5 years residential, and the last 30 on my own.
> Your not Billy Goat Gruff, your the HT attention whore.
> Neither of you has challenged me in any way, neither of you have any experience in any building trades.
> ...


Your "consensus" consists of me, myself and I.

You are hiding behind yourself.

And like the emperor in the story, your regal garments of building expertise are nonexistent and all you are showing the world is your underwear, replete with copious skid marks and yellow stains.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Kelly Craig said:


> SNORT
> 
> and, no brain no. . . .
> 
> He don't even know he done been bit, and it was like that rattler we tormented, when kids - poked it until it got so pissed it bit itself (saw its tail moving and, like the troll, got excited and bit itself).


It will take much more than two old fools that lack knowledge to torment me.
Educate yourself then speak.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> It will take much more than two old fools that lack knowledge to torment me.
> Educate yourself then speak.





Elevenpoint said:


> Stick with plywood, I'm not an OSB man.
> *And don't hesitate to ask for advice, educating the uneducated is a part of my life.*


Someone saw this happen on one of your jobsites awhile back.

One of your "carpenters" (you only hire the brightest and the best) was loading his nail bags with framing sinkers.

He was observed grabbing up a handful out of the box and carefully going through them.

He would put a few in his nail bags and he would pitch a few aside.

You were seen putting on your educator's hat and approached him.

"What are you doing? You were heard to ask. "Why are you dropping those nails?

"The head is on the wrong end." He replied.

"You idiot!" you shouted "Those nails on the ground are for the other side of the wall!"


@Kelly Craig


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> It will take much more than two old fools that lack knowledge to torment me.
> Educate yourself then speak.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> It will take much more than two old fools that lack knowledge to torment me.
> Educate yourself then speak.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Danaus29 said:


> *TIME OUT!!! GO TO YOUR CORNERS AND TAKE A BREAK!*


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> Respectfully,
> 
> Very true.
> 
> ...


This is another hallmark trait of a narcissist.
In this post you now want to play poor me and I'm the victim of the big bad man to get some sympathy from the crowd.
Go back and read post #38 and #49.
That's where the wheels starting coming off your crazy train.
With a narcissist you never know what's going to trip their trigger, but even a perceived slight or criticism sends them into a narcissistic rage.
You'll get a good idea of what that is by your and Tom JRs posts here.
Just pick out every post from the two of you here that delves down into the lowest level of denigrating, browbeating, disrespectful, insulting behaviors on full display.
Normal people don't do that, only narcissists.
Why? Because they're empty inside, no empathy, compassion, respect for others, remorse, regret, or shame.
My ex did the same exact behaviors when her trigger tripped and the episode was on.
It always went down to my quality of work, knowledge, experience regardless of the fact she had been to my job sites and met my customers.
Your posts and Tom JRs sound just like her as all narcissists are very similar.
Neither of you can fool me.
I will concede I'm not a match for either of you, in order to do that I have to empty my soul because narcissists have no bottom.
All narcissists have the emotional maturity and stability of a 6 year old, that's why when you got butthurt awhile back you picked up your toys and went home.
See, I've been on to your gig for quite awhile.
Attention to the narcissist is the same as oxygen to a normal person, due to a narcissists self loathing they have to be the center of the universe and praised constantly or otherwise they collapse.
Even suggest a narcissist is wrong and/or hold them accountable for their atrocious behaviors?
Sure, but this is when the rest of the wheels come off their crazy train.
Out comes the bag of tricks, this is where the gaslighting, pathological lying, word salad etc. come into play.
Through projection the narcissist always tells on themself, just listen carefully and what they say about you in a bizarre way is what they are.
I believe what every single PHD psychologist says about narcissists, run and get as far from them as you can.
Cut them out of your life, they cannot be fixed.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> This is another hallmark trait of a narcissist.


What, oh sage of sages, Sigmund Freud reborn, is a hallmark trait of a narcissist? Pray tell,



Elevenpoint said:


> In this post you now want to play poor me and I'm the victim of the big bad man to get some sympathy from the crowd.
> Go back and read post #38 and #49.
> That's where the wheels starting coming off your crazy train.


Railroad wheels are pressed on making the chances of a wheel coming loose nearly impossible.

If anything were to come loose from a railcar, it would be an entire axle with the wheels firmly attached.

Wheel Press For Railcar Wheel Set Production - YouTube

Neither post #38, nor #49 indicates that I am riding a crazy train.

Both are reasoned observations.
Post #38


Tom Horn said:


> You appear to be both obtuse and condescending.
> 
> Chances are with your hidebound superior attitude you would have been eliminated as a builder candidate in the first round.
> 
> ...


Post #49


Tom Horn said:


> Sarcasm is wasted on the dull witted.
> 
> They also say, "Them that can't... Teach."
> 
> ...





Elevenpoint said:


> With a narcissist you never know what's going to trip their trigger, but even a perceived slight or criticism sends them into a narcissistic rage.
> You'll get a good idea of what that is by your and Tom JRs posts here.
> Just pick out every post from the two of you here that delves down into the lowest level of denigrating, browbeating, disrespectful, insulting behaviors on full display.
> Normal people don't do that, only narcissists.
> Why? Because they're empty inside, no empathy, compassion, respect for others, remorse, regret, or shame.


I would counter that you are so oblivious to your own ignorance and volatile nature that you have no room to accuse anyone of being half the narcissist you are.



Elevenpoint said:


> I'm a boy to you being an asshole.
> You will never give me advice or suggestions in any fashion towards any facet of building.
> Your expertise in the past was pushing a clutch in on a truck or making bricks.
> Don't ever confuse that with 35 years of professional building experience.
> ...





Elevenpoint said:


> Don't have to worry about hiring me, I don't work for fools like you.
> Stick to subjects you have some knowledge about, building sure isn't one of them.





Elevenpoint said:


> I don't need to answer to a fool like you.
> Here's some good advice.
> Better to keep your mouth shut and thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.





Elevenpoint said:


> No jackass I never bragged I was the world's best carpenter.





Elevenpoint said:


> My thoughts also, you're the resident village idiot on HT.





Elevenpoint said:


> I have no empathy for fools, I get a kick out of exposing them as such.
> Of course I have more experience, knowledge, and expertise in building than you and that's quite apparent. Actually I forgot more than you so I guess I am superior to you.
> Usually when someone's teetering at the edge of the cliff like you, I give them a swift kick instead of a hand.
> Monopolizing conversations?
> ...





Elevenpoint said:


> Your sicker than I thought.





Elevenpoint said:


> Again, much more sick that I thought you were.





Elevenpoint said:


> I've never been called a troll.
> How long have you been here?
> 5 months?
> Here's your sign💩





Elevenpoint said:


> Your not Billy Goat Gruff, your the HT attention whore.
> Neither of you has challenged me in any way, neither of you have any experience in any building trades.
> 
> Both of you together don't have the knowledge and experience in building, electric, and plumbing that matches mine.
> ...





Elevenpoint said:


> It will take much more than two old fools that lack knowledge to torment me.
> Educate yourself then speak.


You are the one who keeps moving the goalposts.

You don't even keep your story straight about how many years you allegedly have been a builder.

If you can't be trusted to be accurate with your "years of experience," how can a reasonable person believe that you possess any real concept about how to put up any kind of structure?


Elevenpoint said:


> My comments are based upon over 30 years of experience.





Elevenpoint said:


> Don't ever confuse that with 35 years of professional building experience.





Elevenpoint said:


> After 40 years of boots on the jobsite, endless interactions with architect's, engineer's, building permits and inspections, customers, etc.





Elevenpoint said:


> My ex did the same exact behaviors when her trigger tripped and the episode was on.
> It always went down to my quality of work, knowledge, experience regardless of the fact she had been to my job sites and met my customers.
> Your posts and Tom JRs sound just like her as all narcissists are very similar.
> Neither of you can fool me.


Sounds like your ex had more building expertise in her little finger than you have in your whole body and pegged you as a poser from the get-go.

Is that why you dumped her?




Elevenpoint said:


> I will concede I'm not a match for either of you, in order to do that I have to empty my soul because narcissists have no bottom.
> All narcissists have the emotional maturity and stability of a 6 year old, that's why when you got butthurt awhile back you picked up your toys and went home.
> See, I've been on to your gig for quite awhile.


Please enlighten me as to when I picked up my toys and went home.

Me and the crickets will anxiously await your breathless response.


Elevenpoint said:


> Attention to the narcissist is the same as oxygen to a normal person, due to a narcissists self loathing they have to be the center of the universe and praised constantly or otherwise they collapse.
> Even suggest a narcissist is wrong and/or hold them accountable for their atrocious behaviors?
> Sure, but this is when the rest of the wheels come off their crazy train.
> Out comes the bag of tricks, this is where the gaslighting, pathological lying, word salad etc. come into play.
> ...


It is you who live in a fantasy self-important world where you pretend to be the authority on all things construction related.

You have also proven how hypersensitive you are when your grandiose delusions of grandeur are challenged.



Elevenpoint said:


> Thank you again.
> We'll educate them no matter what.





Elevenpoint said:


> And don't hesitate to ask for advice, educating the uneducated is a part of my life.





Elevenpoint said:


> Thank you, I graduated from a prestigious old school called Overengineering.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

You are truly an embarrassment to yourself as a 65 year old man.
Listening to a miserable old man that by his own admission has a career resume of entry level jobs.
Life is much different where I sit, I have the opportunity and do so to visit projects and old customers from anytime in the past.
I like seeing how my projects look years down the road and visiting people.
You do have a knack for trying to devalue others and their lifelong accomplishments, but I just feed miserable crap like you through the buzz saw head first.
With the mouth on you, you had to have a life of your ass beat repeatedly.
Where you sit must be a miserable seat of a life of zero accomplishments.
Again you are a complete embarrassment to yourself as a 65 year old man.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> You are truly an embarrassment to yourself as a 65 year old man.
> Listening to a miserable old man that by his own admission has a career resume of entry level jobs.
> Life is much different where I sit, I have the opportunity and do so to visit projects and old customers from anytime in the past.
> I like seeing how my projects look years down the road and visiting people.
> ...



Au contraire, connard à tête de cochon.

I am quite content with both who and what I am.

I had the jobs I had by design. I worked them in order to gain the skillset necessary to work a farm without being dependent on others.

Get a full breach calf out of a cow, bottle feed it, raise it to slaughter, butcher it, cut it up into retail cuts, cook it and serve it to you.

Give IV, subcutaneous and intramuscular injections, castrate, dehorn, vaccinate and brand.

Arc weld liquid tight, flat, vertical and overhead, MIG, TIG, Oxy acetylene, Carbon arc and Plasma cutters

Operate and transport Wheel and Track loaders, Dozers, Backhoes, Skid steer loaders, Dump trucks, Excavators, Business and Class-eight trucks, 

Run machine tools, i.e. Bridgeports, Horizontal and vertical lathes, 300 ton presses, cut threads, read prints as well as duplicate from a busted part, and cut to within .010, ( a human hair is .003). I've peeled off nearly a half inch of steel in one pass continuously on a Bullard vertical turret lathe, vaporizing the tool coolant and turning the air blue above the machine.

Increased brick production from 28,000 to nearly 48,000 brick per day in less than four months time.

I can pound nails too, shoot grade bring the soil to grade build forms and build from the ground to the peak.

At six feet five inches and 250 pounds I would shove your buzzsaw up your a*s, chew you up and spit out the pieces.

Yes Whistlebritches, I am the real deal.

And I am proud of who I am and what I have done and accomplished.

That's why you are eating your heart out, wanting to go all Brokeback Mountain on me.











Ain't gonna happen.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

6'5" 250lbs and gay?
I'm scared now.
I'm sure at 6'4" 220 you would be about 1 minute and done.
Thanks for the offer but I don't beat up 65 year old men as a habit.
However if you are feeling lucky, West Plains, Missouri is about halfway.
Just pick a spot in West Plains you want to get whipped.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

I am always fascinated, if a bit annoyed, by those who think someone else's life must be lived their way. People who think I should like a merlot, rather than an IPA, or not like alcohol at all. Someone who thinks a steak must bleed to taste good, rather than be crisp all around. Part of my fascination comes with that they do not know how stupid they are being.

My rent a sister in law was a mocking ass because my sixties years of work experience included electronical and electronics work for the feds, becoming a lawyer [after I learned justice was a purchased thing and I couldn't afford it], that I farmed [a friend's two hundred acres under circles, when he couldn't, and went full in on a hobby I loved (woodworking, which incorporated plastics, metals, resins, rocks or granite and so on) and retired off it.

Though far from the top of the food chain, my background allowed me to take on and figure out things others, lacking the diverse experience, would be baffled by. Because I called on those experiences to solve problems, including writing procedures adopted by the Navy, Uncle Sam even sent me to other states on what, for me, felt like paid vacations [to repair down fire control units].

Now, in my retirement, I can walk out to my shop and choose to play with: A carving machine and a plethora of carving knives and chisels, re-saw and scroll bandsaws, a lighted, filter buff station for metal, plastic and resin work, a plating station, a sandblast-etch station, various saws (cabinet, miter, metal, scroll, circular, etc.) lathes, grinders (a variable speed four wheel with CBN wheels and regular metal grinding wheels), sanders (spindle, disk, drum, hand, flat, detail, etc.), plastic bending equipment, stained glass tools, an entire bay of lumber, flat stock, glass, plastic, airless and HVLP sprayers (even a Cricket), stabilizing equipment and so on.

In short, guys like us don't have to be bored. We get to grow or build things for our family and friends, including things we really couldn't afford to buy.

It is noteworthy women are, generally, often able to do the same thing day after day and it seems not to bother them, unlike many of us who are better equipped to pursue new adventures, however they may appear.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Elevenpoint said:


> 6'5" 250lbs and gay?
> I'm scared now.
> I'm sure at 6'4" 220 you would be about 1 minute and done.
> Thanks for the offer but I don't beat up 65 year old men as a habit.
> ...


Ooooh,

Maybe right on Porter Wagoner Boulevard.

Where you can fulfill your dream to squeal like a pig.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Kelly Craig said:


> I am always fascinated, if a bit annoyed, by those who think someone else's life must be lived their way. People who think I should like a merlot, rather than an IPA, or not like alcohol at all. Someone who thinks a steak must bleed to taste good, rather than be crisp all around. Part of my fascination comes with that they do not know how stupid they are being.
> 
> My rent a sister in law was a mocking ass because my sixties years of work experience included electronical and electronics work for the feds, becoming a lawyer [after I learned justice was a purchased thing and I couldn't afford it], that I farmed [a friend's two hundred acres under circles, when he couldn't, and went full in on a hobby I loved (woodworking, which incorporated plastics, metals, resins, rocks or granite and so on) and retired off it.
> 
> ...



“You can run me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me.” Gunny Highway (Heartbreak Ridge)


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Kelly Craig said:


> I am always fascinated, if a bit annoyed, by those who think someone else's life must be lived their way. People who think I should like a merlot, rather than an IPA, or not like alcohol at all. Someone who thinks a steak must bleed to taste good, rather than be crisp all around. Part of my fascination comes with that they do not know how stupid they are being.
> 
> My rent a sister in law was a mocking ass because my sixties years of work experience included electronical and electronics work for the feds, becoming a lawyer [after I learned justice was a purchased thing and I couldn't afford it], that I farmed [a friend's two hundred acres under circles, when he couldn't, and went full in on a hobby I loved (woodworking, which incorporated plastics, metals, resins, rocks or granite and so on) and retired off it.
> 
> ...


Now your a lawyer also?
Between farming, the Navy flying you around the US, the woodworking shop, you couldn't afford a lawyer so you dropped everything and were able to go to law school full time for 3 years and pay for that?
That prestigious Navy gig paid minimum wage? Writing procedures adopted by the Navy? When, after hours when you left your law office?
Do you also fish for jack salmon?


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Elevenpoint said:


> Now your a lawyer also?
> Between farming, the Navy flying you around the US, the woodworking shop, you couldn't afford a lawyer so you dropped everything and were able to go to law school full time for 3 years and pay for that?
> That prestigious Navy gig paid minimum wage? Writing procedures adopted by the Navy? When, after hours when you left your law office?
> Do you also fish for jack salmon?


That's what I thought, your a liar.
Exit stage left.


----------

