# So little said



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

And it appears even less is done to curb Chicago violence

*In Chicago, 105 people have been shot this year. That is 11 more than 2019.*

At least they have a good page to track the data.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/data/ct-shooting-victims-map-charts-htmlstory.html#nt=barker-chain


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## gleepish (Mar 10, 2003)

The most amazing thing is that even though murder is illegal, people are still getting shot. Maybe pass a few more gun laws so criminals wont be able to buy their guns legally, because we all know that there is no way a criminal would purchase a gun illegally. Maybe we need to make murder more illegal?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I wish they would publish whether the shooter was in legal possession of the firearm. I would wager a very high percentage were *not* in legal possession because it is so hard to "legally" posses a gun in Chicago


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## gleepish (Mar 10, 2003)

They can't do that because it would prove that legal gun owners aren't the problem.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Illinois is a truly awful state to try and purchase and own firearms in.

It is stupifying how many homicides are committed in that state because of gangs, drugs and illegals, and yet they believe the solution is to disarm the law abiding and the victims.
Even a dog that keeps trying to walk thru a door with a stick too wide eventually figures out a better plan.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Who's in charge?


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

I would be curious how many guns are in the US and how accessible those guns are.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

What if there were a billion guns? Would the king's men then be able to write better laws that the criminals would abide to?


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

How would you solve the problem in Chicago?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> I would be curious how many guns are in the US and how accessible those guns are.


About 400 million guns in civilian citizen hands, with between 8 and 20 billion (with a B) rounds sold per year


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

GTX63 said:


> Illinois is a truly awful state to try and purchase and own firearms in.
> .


 Really?
I go down to the store ,pay my money show a ID and a few days later pick up my purchase. 

Is it a lot easier in your state ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Miss Kay said:


> How would you solve the problem in Chicago?


We would like to make it a separate state. 
At least then it wouldn’t be a Illinois problem.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

HDRider said:


> About 400 million guns in civilian citizen hands, with between 8 and 20 billion (with a B) rounds sold per year


Seems that many guns could create problems nation wide.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Miss Kay said:


> How would you solve the problem in Chicago?


In Illinois, it is common for gangbangers and those with previous felonies in the cook county/Chicago area to get plea deals, time served and set free on bail until their court appearance.
There have also been stories in the news lately of Illinois residents who had recently expired FOPID cards (permission to own a firearm) be greeted by the police at their doors for the confiscation of any guns on the property.
Being caught without your FOID card while hunting or ie while possessing a firearm in your car is cause for revocation as well.
There is a great unbalance in the mechanisms of justice in Illinois, and it continues, as do the criminals.


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## gleepish (Mar 10, 2003)

Miss Kay said:


> How would you solve the problem in Chicago?


The same way I would across the rest of the country--commit a crime with a gun, go to prison, forget where you put the key and move on.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SRSLADE said:


> Seems that many guns could create problems nation wide.


Guns don't create problems; they sit idly by. All of them.
Minds and hands do all the problem making on their own.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

AmericanStand said:


> Really?
> I go down to the store ,pay my money show a ID and a few days later pick up my purchase.
> 
> Is it a lot easier in your state ?


Like buying beer.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

While most think this is about guns, I think it starts way before they are old enough to pick up a gun and therefore the solution can only be found there. But, have no idea how you change a culture or how kids are raised.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You are right Kay, it has nothing to do with the means when one has intent on the ends.
There are those who fear guns, they fear people who own guns and in many cases it borders on a phobia.
Unfortunately, some of these people have been elected into government and appointed as judges.
They project their own fears of self control as the norm; a responsible gun owner, to them, is not the norm, yet now they hold positions of authority in the matter.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> Really?
> I go down to the store ,pay my money show a ID and a few days later pick up my purchase.
> 
> Is it a lot easier in your state ?


Days later?

It is a lot easier in NC, I get mine the same day. No need for 2 trips.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Guns don't create problems; they sit idly by. All of them.
> Minds and hands do all the problem making on their own.


The problem lies in the easy access to guns.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Not really
The intent to kill people is the problem if they didn’t get the guns they would use hand grenades or perhaps a gallon of gas and a tire?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SRSLADE said:


> The problem lies in the easy access to guns.


Shouldn't that be a problem for the habitual criminals who repeat felonies?
Why should that be a problem for the man or woman who pays their taxes, follows the laws, yet chooses to have a dozen guns inside their property?

How does this problem differ from easy access to poisons, hammers, alcohol, meth, large vehicles and knives?
Have you tallied the deaths connected with those?
Figures don't lie you know.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

nchobbyfarm said:


> Days later?
> 
> It is a lot easier in NC, I get mine the same day. No need for 2 trips.


I was attending a very large gun auction in Missouri several years ago. The auctioneer was explaining terms and conditions prior to beginning the sale. He stated something like "Welcome everyone to the such and such gun auction. 
Missouri residents, prior to leaving with your firearms today, please fill out the posted affidavit that you are not a felon or are insane.
If you are from Iowa, Kentucky, Arkansas, Kansas, or Tennessee, we welcome you here and request that you please do the same.
If you are from Illinois, then you are welcome to watch."


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol
I’ve been to several gun auctions in Missouri and never had a bit of problem


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Many gun dealers will not sell to Illinois residents due to the onerous restrictions and the FOID system.
Sorry to break the news but just speaking from experience.
It appears that a lot of gun manufacturers are also refusing to ship to some parts of Illinois. This includes ammo and items like magazines and accessories.
You might do well to catch up on your local events. I shouldn't know them better than you.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> Really?
> I go down to the store ,pay my money show a ID and a few days later pick up my purchase.
> 
> Is it a lot easier in your state ?


There are no gun store in Chicago


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> The problem lies in the easy access to guns.


Really? I remember my grandmother telling me that all the boys she taught in school before marrying my grandfather all brought guns to school. They were expected to hunt on the way home and try to provide meat for supper. That is fairly easy access. And I never heard her tell of a single school shooting nor gang shooting. I believe the cause may lie elsewhere.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> Seems that many guns could create problems nation wide.


Guns don't cause problems, people do.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

nchobbyfarm said:


> Really? I remember my grandmother telling me that all the boys she taught in school before marrying my grandfather all brought guns to school. They were expected to hunt on the way home and try to provide meat for supper. That is fairly easy access. And I never heard her tell of a single school shooting nor gang shooting. I believe the cause may lie elsewhere.


I agree. Guns are harder to buy, and harder to own today than they were in the past. You could order them from Sears and shipped to your home, or buy them at any hardware store, no wait, no background check, and no restrictions. 

There is some other problem. No one will admit that, and so, no can solve it.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> The problem lies in the easy access to guns.


Do you support further buying restrictions?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> Do you support further buying restrictions?


How many guns do you think a gang banger on the South side of Chicago "buys"?
They are more likely to associate 4473 with a dob than a form.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

HDRider said:


> Do you support further buying restrictions?


I don't know the current restrictions. so I can't say.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Well, then how do you know if they are enough, or restrictive?
That helps with opining.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

HDRider said:


> Guns don't cause problems, people do.


Then we may need mental competency test for gun ownership followed by occasional random testing.
This should help us keeping guns out of the hands of crazy people.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

someone asked how many guns are in the US ?
here is a number you can start with: In November there were 400,000 people roaming the state with loaded rifles.
Nobody shot anybody.
It amazes me how nonchellantly kids from Chicago accept a shooting.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> I don't know the current restrictions. so I can't say.


They vary by state. I could not find what laws apply to Hell.

The following classes of people are ineligible to possess, receive, ship, or transport firearms or ammunition:


Those convicted of crimes punishable by imprisonment for over one year, except state misdemeanors punishable by two years or less.
Fugitives from justice.
Unlawful users of certain depressant, narcotic, or stimulant drugs.
Those adjudicated as mental defectives or incompetents or those committed to any mental institution.
Illegal aliens.
Citizens who have renounced their citizenship.
Those persons dishonorably discharged from the Armed Forces.
Persons less than 18 years of age for the purchase of a shotgun or rifle.
Persons less than 21 years of age for the purchase of a firearm that is other than a shotgun or rifle.
Persons subject to a court order that restrains such persons from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner.
Persons convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.
Persons under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than one year are ineligible to receive, transport, or ship any firearm or ammunition. Under limited conditions, relief from disability may be obtained from the U.S. Secretary of the Treasury, or through a pardon, expungement, restoration of rights, or setting aside of a conviction.

For more laws, and there are many more, read - https://www.nraila.org/articles/20040324/citizen-s-guide-to-federal-firearms-law


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> Then we may need mental competency test for gun ownership followed by occasional random testing.
> This should help us keeping guns out of the hands of crazy people.


So you think most of Chicago's shootings are done by crazy people?


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## dyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

The main thrust of the argument is always that you cannot address violent crime by looking at the implement used to commit the violence. I think most people were aware last year when London beat NY in homicides using mostly just knives. Manufacturers in the UK of knives are now being told that there is no reason to have a pointed knife except for killing (the gun argument) so are beginning to make knives with a square point -we're talking people that make steak knives and such.

Everyone knows the real reason for the knife crime in London is a "social" problem but of course, we must not talk about those things.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

GTX63 said:


> You might do well to catch up on your local events. I shouldn't know them better than you.


 You are correct , your obsession with creating a evil Illinois is strange indeed.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

HDRider said:


> So you think most of Chicago's shootings are done by crazy people?


All of them every one.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

AmericanStand said:


> You are correct , your obsession with creating an evil Illinois is strange indeed.


I try to stay current on 2Ammendment happenings across our country. Illinois just keeps making news I guess. 
I don't pick Illinois, they just keep crossing my feed.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Really?
> I go down to the store ,pay my money show a ID and a few days later pick up my purchase.
> 
> Is it a lot easier in your state ?



Can walk out with a gun at the time of purchase in Indiana.
You fill out a form, they call it in and so long as your name doesn't raise a flag, you pay for the gun and leave.

Pain in the rear to buy ammo in Illinois also. You have to posses a FOID card, and getting the card is another process to go through. 

It really stinks, because the majority of the land mass in Illinois is inhabited by pretty good people, yet they are ruled by the scum in the capitol and Chicago.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

HDRider said:


> So you think most of Chicago's shootings are done by crazy people?


See solution in my above post


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## gleepish (Mar 10, 2003)

dyrne said:


> The main thrust of the argument is always that you cannot address violent crime by looking at the implement used to commit the violence...


That, by far, and quite possibly the best, statement I have read thus far on this entire board.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> See solution in my above post


It did not make sense


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

In many states you go into a store, fill out your background check, pay for your purchase and walk out with your gun. In Ohio if you have a concealed carry permit you don't have to fill out the background check paperwork.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

105 shot in 2020. Tragic statistic

Over 1600 women in the US have been murdered by their spouse or intimate partner in 2019. Another tragic statistic and not much said.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

emdeengee said:


> 105 shot in 2019. Tragic statistic
> 
> Over 1600 women in the US have been murdered by their spouse or intimate partner in 2019. Another tragic statistic and not much said.


105 shot since 1/1/2020 in Chicago.

And yes, anyone being murdered by any means is tragic!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> I would be curious how many guns are in the US and how accessible those guns are.


Data about the number isn't hard to find.
"How accessible" is meaningless rhetoric.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

emdeengee said:


> Over 1600 women in the US have been murdered by their spouse or intimate partner in 2019. Another tragic statistic and *not much said*.


I bet most of them were drinking when it happened, and we know drunk drivers kill more than "assault weapons", but those deaths don't seem to matter either.

This thread is *supposed to be* about guns though.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

That was a typo which I have corrected Still not used to always writing 2020 . I could not yet find the statistics for 2020 for women murdered by partners .


Yes and many of those women were killed by guns. And I do not have a map but am sure some were murdered in or around Chicago.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

SRSLADE said:


> I would be curious how many guns are in the US and how accessible those guns are.


Why? What difference would it make to the people getting shot in Chicago (or elsewhere)?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Fishindude said:


> Can walk out with a gun at the time of purchase in Indiana.......
> Pain in the rear to buy ammo in Illinois also. You have to posses a FOID card, and getting the card is another process to go through.
> 
> It really stinks, because the majority of the land mass in Illinois is inhabited by pretty good people, yet they are ruled by the scum in the capitol and Chicago.


 Unless things have changed if you’re from out of state you don’t have to have a Foid card to buy ammunition in Il


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> Really?
> I go down to the store ,pay my money show a ID and a few days later pick up my purchase.
> 
> Is it a lot easier in your state ?


I dunno about his state, but in this state, I walk in, choose a gun, fill out the form, they take a copy of my driver's license and CCW, and I walk out the door with my new gun or guns, as much ammo as I care to take with me and a song in my heart


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I bet most of them were drinking when it happened, and we know drunk drivers kill more than "assault weapons", but those deaths don't seem to matter either.
> 
> This thread is *supposed to be* about guns though.


Then why bring up drunks ad nauseam?


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

SRSLADE said:


> Then we may need mental competency test for gun ownership followed by occasional random testing.
> This should help us keeping guns out of the hands of crazy people.


That would work for voting.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Cornhusker said:


> I dunno about his state, but in this state, I walk in, choose a gun, fill out the form, they take a copy of my driver's license and CCW, and I walk out the door with my new gun or guns, as much ammo as I care to take with me and a song in my heart


 What’s it take to get a CCW ?
I don’t need one of those.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> What’s it take to get a CCW ?
> I don’t need one of those.


Take a class, shoot some targets, get fingerprinted, photographed and background checked, pay the state $100. It's good for 5 years, and if you don't let it expire, you can renew online for $50
Or you can go to the sheriff and get a "Permit to Purchase a Handgun"
They run a background check while you wait, you pay $5 and it's good for 3 years.
Both ways show you've been subject to a background check and are legally eligible to own a firearm.
Makes it a lot quicker to buy a gun.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Looks like in Illinois it is going to take about 16 hours of class training and up to $1000. Plan on at least 6 months from the time of approval to the day your CCW card arrives in your mail box. I don't see many, if any other states that will recognize an Illinois cc permit. Might be because they don't recognize anyone elses, lol.

I also see that if you have ever had any trouble with the law, even cases that were dismissed, it is in the rights of the state police to place you under review, meaning you have to prove to them you are worthy of their permission to hold and own a gun.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Cornhusker said:


> That would work for voting.


why? are people dying from errant voting?
I'm all for gun ownership in sane and law abiding hands.


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

Why not dump a few truckloads of loaded guns on the streets there? I’m sure more guns will surely solve the violence and crime as so often I’ve heard.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> Then why bring up drunks ad nauseam?


Drunks are a big problem. 
In this thread though, I used them as an example in the context of the post I quoted.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

georger said:


> Why not dump a few truckloads of loaded guns on the streets there? I’m sure more guns will surely solve the violence and crime as so often I’ve heard.


It's been well proven that *legally owned* guns do just that.
https://neonnettle.com/news/4279-cd...rzU9A5A6HWz7sWZoByRIQrAudf0xWJB7TlJaiIBnfSOEQ

"An unpublished study was covered-up by the CDC after the results proved conclusively than guns are used more often for protection than they are for criminal activity.Researchers from the Florida State University have uncovered evidence that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) buried results from the survey when they realized the data didn't fit their agenda.The original study conducted found that guns were used for self-defense three-and-a-half times more often than they are used to commit crimes.According to the results of the unpublished CDC study, there were nearly 2.5 million instances a year where people used a firearm for self-defense, defending others or whilst protecting their property."
© Neon Nettle


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

georger said:


> Why not dump a few truckloads of loaded guns on the streets there? I’m sure more guns will surely solve the violence and crime as so often I’ve heard.


I tried to compare Chicago with Houston to test your statement. I could not find the data on Houston.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

emdeengee said:


> Yes and many of those women were killed *by* guns.


No one has ever been killed "*by* a gun".
They are inanimate objects.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Cornhusker said:


> Take a class, shoot some targets, get fingerprinted, photographed and background checked, pay the state $100. It's good for 5 years, and if you don't let it expire, you can renew online for $50
> Or you can go to the sheriff and get a "Permit to Purchase a Handgun"
> They run a background check while you wait, you pay $5 and it's good for 3 years.
> Both ways show you've been subject to a background check and are legally eligible to own a firearm.
> Makes it a lot quicker to buy a gun.


Wow! Guess we've got it easy in Indiana.
I got fingerprinted and filled out a form, it got sent to state PD to make sure I'm not a criminal, then my county sheriff reviews and approves the application and I was good to go. Was also a small fee (well under $100) and my permit is good for lifetime with no renewal charges. That process took several weeks, but I will never have to go through it again.

We can also buy any gun including hand guns over the counter. Just have to fill out the ATF paperwork and dealer calls it in, usually only takes a few minutes. Don't even have to do the ATF paperwork if you are buying a handgun from a private party, but it's a good idea to do a bill of sale with serial numbers if you are the seller.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> why? are people dying from errant voting?


Govts kill more people than criminals do.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Drunks are a big problem.
> In this thread though, I used them as an example.


Old age is a big killer as well you may want to include that in your list of problems.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Govts kill more people than criminals do.


Are you taking a pro criminal stance on this one?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> Old age is a big killer as well you may want to include that in your list of problems.


Age alone doesn't kill anyone.



SRSLADE said:


> Are you taking a pro criminal stance on this one?


I took no stance.
I stated a fact.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SRSLADE said:


> Old age is a big killer as well you may want to include that in your list of problems.


Smoking is supposed to cause a lot of deaths but I haven't seen or heard of a single coroner's report that listed the cause of death as Marlboroughs.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

GTX63 said:


> Smoking is supposed to cause a lot of deaths but I haven't seen or heard of a single coroner's report that listed the cause of death as Marlboroughs.


Just as there are no coroner reports that list drunk driver as a cause of death.

I wonder if a coroner would list a cause of death as a knife in the heart or massive blood loss due to laceration of the heart?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> Then we may need mental competency test for gun ownership followed by occasional random testing.
> This should help us keeping guns out of the hands of crazy people.


Let's apply that to internet access first.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SRSLADE said:


> The problem lies in the easy access to guns.


 I agree with that to an extent. But it's easier to obtain guns illegally than legally. It may cost more but it is easier. My first gun I bought was when I was 13 and it was for 5 dollars. It was a 22 revolver that wouldn't hit a 8.5x11 sheet of paper in 5 yards because the barrel was bent. I didn't know any better on pistols at that age. I used it for a trot line sinker eventually but you get the idea. If I bought a new 22 revolver at Atwoods, it would cost a lot more and would take a background check of me. There is your difference.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

mreynolds said:


> But it's easier to obtain guns illegally than legally.


Pass a law that requires a background check. Who does the law affect?
Extend a waiting period for buying a gun to 30 days? Who does that law affect?
Make a law that allows no more than one gun purchase a month? Who does that law affect?
Require a mental health evaluation before approving a gun permit. Who does that law affect?
If you continue to think like a law abiding citizen, you will continue to support laws that really only affect law abiding citizens.

You find the front doors to your barn are swinging wide open and a neighbor's cow has been wandering by and eating loose hay.
You remove the ladder going up to the loft.
You install locks on the windows and the back door.
You put cable ties around each bale and connect it to a post.
You post signs warning all neighboring livestock that coming onto your property and eating your hay is forbidden.
You remove all of the hay from the barn and only feed your cows under direct supervision.
Cows who refuse to go to the area you place their feed are singled out for sale or butchering.
The hay continues to disappear so you decide to ration the hay.
More hay is stolen so you remove the cows from the barn.
You finally catch the neighbor's cow one afternoon and take it back to the neighbor. He doesn't see a problem. His feed bill is way down and his cows seem happy, but he promises to keep and eye on them.
So you decide the best way to solve the problem is to eliminate the hay and just feed your cows tomatoes.
The problem you discover is when you go to your barn to retrieve the tomatoes, they are all gone. Stolen. Oh, so is your tractor.
Those front doors that you left open to swing in the wind? Well, one has broken from the hinges and lying on the ground in pieces.
You take a couple 2 x 4s and nail the remaining door shut. That should do it.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SRSLADE said:


> I would be curious how many guns are in the US and how accessible those guns are.


Millions, and some are within arms reach.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

nchobbyfarm said:


> Days later?
> 
> It is a lot easier in NC, I get mine the same day. No need for 2 trips.


I usually get mine same day too. Some poor guy needs a bit of cash, brings his toys b the house, I pick out what I like, pay the man. Pretty simple solution to his/her problem and I get to replace one of those guns that sunk my boat that time. Hated to lose all my registered guns, but hated losing the boat too.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Let's apply that to internet access first.


I find most of the crazy people won't get near a gun.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I find most of the crazy people won't get near a gun.


But they're "not anti-gun"


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

SRSLADE said:


> The problem lies in the easy access to guns.


No it doesn't...the problem lies in the behavior of those that would commit crimes with or without access to guns.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

SRSLADE said:


> Then we may need mental competency test for gun ownership followed by occasional random testing.
> This should help us keeping guns out of the hands of crazy people.


"Shall not be infringed".....


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> "Shall not be infringed".....


Did you ever know someone that shouldn't have a gun?


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

nchobbyfarm said:


> Really? I remember my grandmother telling me that all the boys she taught in school before marrying my grandfather all brought guns to school. They were expected to hunt on the way home and try to provide meat for supper. That is fairly easy access. And I never heard her tell of a single school shooting nor gang shooting. I believe the cause may lie elsewhere.


I had guns with me every single day that I set foot on campus during High School,I hunted before and after school almost everyday that there was an open season.My freshman year I gave a speech/demonstration on how to disassemble,clean and reassemble a hunting rifle...in speech class.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

SRSLADE said:


> Did you ever know someone that shouldn't have a gun?


American citizens have the "RIGHT" to own a gun,ammunition etc it isn't up to you ,me or anyone else to decide if they should or shouldn't have a gun...


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> American citizens have the "RIGHT" to own a gun,ammunition etc it isn't up to you ,me or anyone else to decide if they should or shouldn't have a gun...


Not true. No right is absolute.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

emdeengee said:


> 105 shot in 2020. Tragic statistic
> 
> Over 1600 women in the US have been murdered by their spouse or intimate partner in 2019. Another tragic statistic and not much said.


Far more than that are aborted and nobody blinks an eye.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

SRSLADE said:


> Then we may need mental competency test for gun ownership followed by occasional random testing.
> This should help us keeping guns out of the hands of crazy people.


Why single out gun owners?
The problem is anyone can own a weapon of some sort .
I don’t think we can sort all the nuts out From the fruits and flakes


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

painterswife said:


> Not true. No right is absolute.


Obviously you fail to comprehend "Shall not be infringed".


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> Obviously you fail to comprehend "Shall not be infringed".


No right is absolute.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> American citizens have the "RIGHT" to own a gun,ammunition etc it isn't up to you ,me or anyone else to decide if they should or shouldn't have a gun...


That's a little far "RIGHT" for me.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

painterswife said:


> No right is absolute.


You're incorrect...My rights are Natural Rights and are not "given" or "taken" by anyone.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

I've known people that should not own a fork and spoon.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

SRSLADE said:


> That's a little far "RIGHT" for me.


You have the "right" to choose what is right for you...and that's where it ends.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> You have the "right" to choose what is right for you...and that's where it ends.


See you agree, no right is absolute.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

painterswife said:


> See you agree, no right is absolute.


My rights are my rights exclusively and absolutely...


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

painterswife said:


> See you agree, no right is absolute.


No, I do not agree....


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> My rights are my rights exclusively and absolutely...


They are not. You live in a country with others and that means your rights are not absolute. Your rights must coexist with the rights of others. They can not be absolute in that situation.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Wasn't your right to have a gun given by men?


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

painterswife said:


> They are not. You live in a country with others and that means your rights are not absolute. Your rights must coexist with the rights of others. They can not be absolute in that situation.


You are wrong yet once again.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

SRSLADE said:


> Wasn't your right to have a gun given by men?


No!!!! it was not !!!


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> You are wrong yet once again.


No. I am not. For example. You don't have the right to take your gun onto another a property. Therefore no absolute right.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

SRSLADE said:


> Wasn't your right to have a gun given by men?


The Constitution does not "Grant us our rights"... our rights are Natural Rights.The Constitution enumerates certain rights as a protection of our natural rights.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

painterswife said:


> No. I am not. For example. You don't have the right to take your gun onto another a property. Therefore no absolute right.


I'll take it anywhere I go....period.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> I'll take it anywhere I go....period.


Well that is just a lie. You can't on a commercial plane.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> No!!!! it was not !!!


That's what I thought.
Your pursuit and mine have parted ways.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

painterswife said:


> Well that is just a lie. You can't on a commercial plane.


I have many times....


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> Did you ever know someone that shouldn't have a gun?


That *opinion* doesn't negate the right.
There are laws which control access.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> painterswife said: ↑
> They are not. You live in a country with others and that means your rights are not absolute. *Your rights must coexist with the rights of others.* They can not be absolute in that situation.


No one will force you to have anything you don't want.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> The Constitution does not "Grant us our rights"... our rights are Natural Rights.The Constitution enumerates certain rights as a protection of our natural rights.


You may as well get used to a general lack of understanding when it comes to the definitions of our rights.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Well that is just a lie. You can't on a commercial plane.


Sure you can as long as you follow all the rules.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That *opinion* doesn't negate the right.
> There are laws which control access.


So we agree that laws control who can have guns.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> SRSLADE said: ↑
> Wasn't your right to have a gun given by men?


Not at all.
The right to self defense has always existed.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Sure you can as long as you follow all the rules.


Exactly. Rules mean the right is not absolute.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Sure you can as long as you follow all the rules.


Exactly


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> So we agree that laws control who can have guns.


No, laws don't actually "control" anything.
There are laws that attempt to control things, but ultimately only people control their own actions.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

SRSLADE said:


> So we agree that laws control who can have guns.


Unconstitutional Laws


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Not at all.
> The right to self defense has always existed.


Not with a gun.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> No, laws don't actually "control" anything.
> There are laws that attempt to control things, but ultimately only people control their own actions.


Correct once again..


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Exactly. Rules mean the right is not absolute.


The right is absolute.
The "rules" are concerning someone else's property.
They aren't restricting the right to own guns.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> Not with a gun.


With any means necessary.
https://bearingarms.com/hheinritz/2009/11/10/a-brief-history-of-the-right-to-selfdefense/

"Under ancient Greek, Roman, and Anglo-Saxon law, the ceremony of freeing a slave included placing a weapon in his hands "as a symbol of his new rank." 

Aristotle wrote in Politics 68 that "*true citizenship included the right to possess arms, and that armed tyrants disarmed the oppressed*."


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> With any means necessary.


Correct...


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

GTX63 said:


> You may as well get used to a general lack of understanding when it comes to the definitions of our rights.


I think I'll end my participation here for awhile, I'm going outside to my rifle range to exercise my rights. Enjoy your evening...


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Saving the best for last, free speech is soon to be voted on in Virginia. 

Keep in mind that Virginia governor recently banned at a public meeting protesting upcoming legislation, open and concealed firearms and other weapons like sticks, bats and chains. Not just guns. Sticks.........

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/16/us/virginia-gun-rights-rally/index.html


And its not the first time that sticks, skateboards, rocks, metal beverage cans, and other numerous items have been banned. 

https://www.wabi.tv/content/news/Ch...ncy-ahead-of-rally-anniversary-490382561.html


Ok so no sticks. NO free speech is coming up in legislature for the people to deal with. No criticizing the politicians of the state including twitter and other forms of communication. 

https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com...e-criticizing-state-leaders-criminal-offense/

https://nationalfile.com/virginia-d...legislation-to-make-criticizing-them-illegal/


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SRSLADE said:


> Did you ever know someone that shouldn't have a gun?


Not personally, but I understand they can be found in our jails and prisons.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SRSLADE said:


> Wasn't your right to have a gun given by men?


Nope, we are born with the right to defend ourselves.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Being that we are animals somewhat akin to monkeys I can see why you feel that way.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You should speak for yourself. Other than a liking for bananas I share nothing else in common.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

It may not be monkeys

Chimpanzees are genetically closest to *humans*, and in fact, chimpanzees share about 98.6% of our DNA. We share more of our DNA with chimpanzees than with *monkeys* or other groups, or even with other great apes! We also both play, have complex emotions and intelligence, and a very similar physical makeup.Jun 27, 2018
news.janegoodall.org › Conservation

*Chimps, Humans and Monkeys: What's the Difference?*


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

SRSLADE said:


> Did you ever know someone that shouldn't have a gun?


The law allows for certain people to have their "rights" taken due to their illegal actions. I know several people who should never be permitted to own guns. I also know people who the law has determined should never be allowed to own guns but would not use a gun for illegal purposes and should have that "right" reinstated.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> Chimpanzees are genetically closest to *humans*


Even chimps understand the advantages of having weapons for protection:


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> The law allows for certain people to have their "rights" taken due to their illegal actions. I know several people who should never be permitted to own guns. I also know people who the law has determined should never be allowed to own guns but would not use a gun for illegal purposes and should have that "right" reinstated.


Fair enough.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

nchobbyfarm said:


> *Days later?*
> 
> It is a lot easier in NC, I get mine the same day. *No need for 2 trips*.


Such a waste of gas.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Not at all.
> The right to self defense has always existed.


Really ?
That would seem to contradict a lot of history that I’ve heard about the rights of kings and slaveowners to take the life of others.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

kinderfeld said:


> Such a waste of gas.


Not really you’ll always need another trip to the gun store


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Not really you’ll always need another trip to the gun store


Good point.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Really ?
> That would seem to contradict a lot of history that I’ve heard about the rights of kings and slaveowners to take the life of others.


The constitutional argument would be that kings and slaveowners were in violation of hose individuals' natural rights.


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## CKelly78z (Jul 16, 2017)

My favorite website for tracking the "gun free zone" Chicago craziness.

https://heyjackass.com/


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

AmericanStand said:


> Really ?
> That would seem to contradict a lot of history that I’ve heard about the rights of kings and slaveowners to take the life of others.


I suppose one's thinking about the subject might depend somewhat on where said person lived...


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

CKelly78z said:


> My favorite website for tracking the "gun free zone" Chicago craziness.
> 
> https://heyjackass.com/


Very good site run by cops who work that environment and have no problem disseminating their bosses bs.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Really ?
> That would seem to contradict a lot of history that I’ve heard about the rights of kings and slaveowners to take the life of others.


There are no "contradictions".
It's just your misunderstanding.

Rights are often violated.
That doesn't mean they don't exist.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

So I misunderstood and Kings and slaveholder never had the right to take the lives of their property ?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> So I misunderstood and Kings and slaveholder never had the right to take the lives of their property ?


Does that seem like a right to you?

Never mind, I forgot who I was talking to.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

HDRider said:


> Does that seem like a right to you?
> 
> Never mind, I forgot who I was talking to.


 Yes might made right for the biggest portion of history. 

If you’re asking me do I think that’s the way things should’ve been the answer is no .
if you’re asking me do I think that’s the way things were the answer is yes.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Rights are often violated.
> That doesn't mean they don't exist.


 Nope that pretty much means that they don’t exist

For instance you could talk about the Second Amendment and you’re right to bear arms but if the government comes and gets them you don’t have a right to bear arms do you


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> Nope that pretty much means that they don’t exist
> 
> For instance you could talk about the Second Amendment and you’re right to bear arms but if the government comes and gets them you don’t have a right to bear arms do you


A right taken away is no less a right. It is a right to be reclaimed.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Nope that pretty much means that they don’t exist
> 
> For instance you could talk about the Second Amendment and you’re right to bear arms but if the government comes and gets them you don’t have a right to bear arms do you


Nope, that would mean I no longer have the ability to fight for my right. Most likely coz I'm dead.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Nope, that would mean I no longer have the ability to fight for my right. Most likely coz I'm dead.


 Weird cause you are alive right now and not fighting.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Kentucky isn’t Illinois


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

A fact those of us in Illinois are eternally grateful for


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Weird cause you are alive right now and not fighting.


Nope, no one is at my door wanting me too surrender my guns..... Yet.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

or making me wait 3 days to own a firearm when I walked into the store to buy it already wearing a legally owned gun on my hip.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Nope, no one is at my door wanting me too surrender my guns..... Yet.


But you can’t take them anywhere you want to go thus the right has been infringed


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Didn't you say you travel into states outside of your own?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> But you can’t take them anywhere you want to go thus the right has been infringed


I take mine anywhere I so desire.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

You just don’t desire to go any place that would take them?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Yes might made right for the biggest portion of history.
> 
> If you’re asking me do I think that’s the way things should’ve been the answer is no .
> if you’re asking me do I think that’s the way things were the answer is yes.


News flash.... Nothing has changed... The guy with the best toys still makes the rules.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> You just don’t desire to go any place that would take them?


Haven't had that problem yet.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> But you can’t take them anywhere you want to go thus the right has been infringed


Your rights end where another persons rights begin. If a property owner does not want firearms on their property, they have the right to demand firearms not be brought on their property.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Why would their right trump yours ?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Why would their right trump yours ?


They don't on your own or most public property, just as yours don't overrule theirs on their private property.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Why would their right trump yours ?


It's no longer about rights at that point. It's just good manners.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Why would their right trump yours ?


Because it's their property. Why should my rights weigh more than theirs if it concerns their private property? Just like I have the right to tell people not to smoke or drink if they are on my private property. If they don't like it they can leave.

Public property is a different story.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Danaus29 said:


> Because it's their property. Why should my rights weigh more than theirs if it concerns their private property? Just like I have the right to tell people not to smoke or drink if they are on my private property. If they don't like it they can leave.
> 
> Public property is a different story.


Your house your rules. My house my rules. That works for me.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

When the victims start to include middle-class white people, something will be done about it, but as long as they're mostly black and/or Hispanic, and a large percentage of them gang-bangers or their wannabes, the authorities' attitude will remain "let the scum kill each other off."


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> Did you ever know someone that shouldn't have a gun?


Sure have.

The people who are afraid that the gummint's gonna take their guns, and still brag on social media that they have them, are among this population, as are people who carry because they're HOPING to shoot some bad guys.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Danaus29 said:


> Because it's their property. Why should my rights weigh more than theirs if it concerns their private property? Just like I have the right to tell people not to smoke or drink if they are on my private property. If they don't like it they can leave.
> 
> Public property is a different story.


 So private property is the ultimate right ?
Hard to believe I can kill someone at my whim if they are on my property. 
So what is the hierarchy of rights?


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There are no "contradictions".
> It's just your misunderstanding.
> 
> Rights are often violated.
> That doesn't mean they don't exist.


Exactly!


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

AmericanStand said:


> Nope that pretty much means that they don’t exist
> 
> For instance you could talk about the Second Amendment and you’re right to bear arms but if the government comes and gets them you don’t have a right to bear arms do you


They'll have to take them the hard way.


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