# How many acres??



## snakeshooter1 (Mar 8, 2009)

I have a mental exercise for you. How many acres do you think it would take to be totally self-sufficient and grow everything you would need to survive and maybe even thrive? The idea is to be able to live without any outside help or interference. The perimeters are land is paid for in full along with hand tools maybe even small wood stove and dutch ovens. You would not have any money coming in but any property tax would have been paid for by small trust. Sort of hermit leaves society type thing. Eta How many acres for wood lot and garden and maybe few livestock just enough to get by and be self reproducing.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

1. What are you willing to eat? Grasshopper? Grubs? Can you forage?

2. Does it have a river or stream running through it? Oceanfront property?

3. Are you free from outside interference?


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Some where close to a million acres over 3 contents. You may need things like Coffee or sugar or oranges or bananas or many things that you cant grow on say 40 acres. Now if you are not going to need any thing at you can't grow 2 people can live on somewhere around 40 acres of good farm land.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Old Vet said:


> Some where close to a million acres over 3 contents. You may need things like Coffee or sugar or oranges or bananas or many things that you cant grow on say 40 acres. Now if you are not going to need any thing at you can't grow 2 people can live on somewhere around 40 acres of good farm land.


I never knew anyone that needed coffee ,sugar or bananas :smack
Maybe I live a sheltered life :sob:


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Woodlots are irrelevant (and actually a negative, unless they produce mast crops that you can harvest, process, and eat), at least for wood... if you do own forestland, never ever cut a green tree, unless it's an absolute emergency. Around here, there is never a shortage of hardwood trees available for firewood... large landowners cutting timber (cleaning up the 'tops' is doing them a favor.... ask first), small landowners have trees die, and are worthless to them, and only something to have to clean up.

Get to know your neighbors, and never cut a stick of wood of your own place ever again...


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

What are you going to do for clothing, shelter materials, medical care, etc? 

As far as growing all your own food, depends on the climate. You'll need more land the farther you get from the equator.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

The guy who is willing to sleep in a hollow log, wearing nothing but a grass loincloth, sipping water out of the creek and eating grasshoppers probably doesn't need much more than 20 square feet.

Maybe 30 if he intends on going to the bathroom.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

If you do research I think you could live on six acres or less, depending on where you live. An Alabama winter is much different from a Minnesota winter.

Since you don't want to forage off your six acres, you'd probably want fruit trees and berries. You'd want a water source. You'd want a vegetable garden that is planted in such a way that you have a series of ripe vegetables and some that produce all summer. With a root cellar, you can keep potatoes, carrots, and squash. For foraging protein, you'd want nut trees and/or bushes. What can you eat that naturally grows in your area or on your land? Cattails, paw paw, etc.

I think one problem we have with these scenarios is that we all intend to work hard on our land to be self sufficient. What happens when old age or illness or loss of limb makes this work hard or impossible? I'd want to make living off the land as easy as possible. Trees and bushes, raised gardens, certain fruit and vegetables growing in containers, exchange with neighbors their labor for a share of the harvest.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

all acres are not created equal.

as a rule of thumb....a health forest yields a cord of wood per year per acre.

the more lush a forest the more survival because trees mean theres a high amount of rainfall per year....water is everything.

i have been told that a mature oak forest produces more acorn calories per acre than a wheat field...but i dont know if this is fact..but i know in good years my mature forest i can shovel acorns.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

join this site..its free and he only notifies you when he puts up new videos.theres amazing examples here especially his farm that is filmed in "surviving the coming crises"

http://www.geofflawton.com/fe/32461-surviving-the-coming-crises


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

found it on the tube for yall

[YOUTUBE]P0I_c0NEZFY[/YOUTUBE]


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## CFarmerLady (Dec 1, 2011)

I came up with about 10 acres, but that was for a family of 5-6, the cow and the calf, the chickens, the pigs, the fish, the pets, the vegetable garden, the orchard, the vineyard, the green house, the aquaponic system, and the field crops, and still having a nice quarter-acre for house and yard. In my virtual world, I grew enough food for the family and all the critters year-round and had a solar/wind combo for electric.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2014)

We use 1/6 of an acre for garden, 1/6 of an acre for an orchard. Chickens help fertilize and control bugs in both, and give meat and eggs. We eat, preserve, and sell from our total 1/3 acre of produce. Lot of squirrels around if you have fruit trees. Along with enough deer. Just pick them off when you need one, or whenever they're causing problems. Much healthier than anything from a store. As to firewood, I don't know about Alabama, but around here, people will actually pay you to haul away blowdown. 

Some things we buy, but don't actually "need". salt, cheese, flour. I do believe that we can barter our own products for the ones we want most. 

So, all in all, I'd think we actually use a half acre. I own more, but only to keep anybody else from owning it.


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

Ernie said:


> The guy who is willing to sleep in a hollow log, wearing nothing but a grass loincloth, sipping water out of the creek and eating grasshoppers probably doesn't need much more than 20 square feet.
> 
> Maybe 30 if he intends on going to the bathroom.


He'd have a rather short lifespan up here. Our grasshoppers aren't all that reliable. They were so non exisitant last year that I actually had to feed my chickens through the summer. :flame:


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## snakeshooter1 (Mar 8, 2009)

Some well thought out answers here. The thing is I would want to grow and forage anything I would "NEED" on my land. One of the perimeters was no outside contact so no trading. You have to have everything you would need to survive on your land. I would want to make sure I had a reliable water source(maybe a pond of at least 2 acres to be self-replicating with fish. Family of 5 sounds like a good number for the people. I am thinking garden size of 2 acres to grow animal feed and your vegetables. Small orchard of 1 acre. So if all things were ideal I would think maybe 10 acres minimum. Some one mentioned sugar, we grow cane down here and sugar beets were grown in the 1800's. Chicory for coffee. A root cellar would be a must too.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I would hate to do it on less than 40 acres. But then again we have 1/4 mile of river frontage and a creek.


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## snakeshooter1 (Mar 8, 2009)

elkhound said:


> found it on the tube for yall
> 
> [YOUTUBE]P0I_c0NEZFY[/YOUTUBE]


Wow that is amazing.


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## snakeshooter1 (Mar 8, 2009)

ET1 SS said:


> I would hate to do it on less than 40 acres. But then again we have 1/4 mile of river frontage and a creek.


 I agree the more land the better but I was trying to find a consensus o what the minimum number of acres would be for down here. I would think in Maine you would require more garden space because of shorter growing season plus more timber space for wood to heat with.


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

to be fully self sufficient and modern at the same time, 150+ acres,
Enough for biomass/fuel oil generation, forage, garden, hay generation, heat fuel etc. this would be for a family from 5-50. 

Heating with rocket stoves, solar dehydration, creek/spring house cooling or small fridge freezer on wood gas/syngas. Solar and wind generation. 
Sizeable medical garden including poppies for pain control, and liquor making items for sanitary care, making a weak lye solution from biochar for soap etc.

You could do everything with many hands, but there is an economy of scale, 

chicory for coffee, sugar beats/sweet fruits for sweet items etc. there are natural alternatives for soooo many things we do, the problem is havignt he right hands, the right heads, the right climate with the freedom to do it all.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

A lot will depend on where your at, there are places here when it is dry you might not survive on a whole quarter of land. A good year on some good bottom land 15 or 20 acres would be enough,


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Ernie, is that 4x5 or 10x2??????


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2014)

This guy produced a million pounds of food in 3 acres, including 10,000 fish. There's not much else to say.

[YOUTUBE]jV9CCxdkOng[/YOUTUBE]


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

Eventually, how would you deal with the need for salt?


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## bigjon (Oct 2, 2013)

hmmm?on our 31 acres,we have 15 tillable/15 wooded/1 acre we live on.all season stream with fish.plenty of deer.orchard with pears-peaches-apples-grapes.i'm guessing we're good. 30 acres is enough.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

logbuilder said:


> Eventually, how would you deal with the need for salt?


we have plenty of salt here, but a person needs Iodine and so do animals here, they need selenium. We are deficient here. It's so different everywhere, I do not think this question of the op can be awnsered. Even between my dh and I, meat(and their feed) changes everything.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

If you want to have absolutely no outside contact then don't have kids. It's kind of unfair to expect them to never marry and have children of their own. 

The reality is no one can be 100% self sufficient as a hermit. Forerunner posted a good article here recently about the family in Russia. They had hundreds and hundreds of acres and they died from starvation and deprivation. Their children never married and died alone in the end. 

I can give you a good estimate of what it would take to live a very self sufficient life on your own piece of land if you are interested in that.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

bluetogreens said:


> to be fully self sufficient and modern at the same time, 150+ acres,
> Enough for biomass/fuel oil generation, forage, garden, hay generation, heat fuel etc. this would be for a family from 5-50.
> 
> Heating with rocket stoves, solar dehydration, creek/spring house cooling or small fridge freezer on wood gas/syngas. Solar and wind generation.
> ...


How are you going to get Iron or copper for tools. I guess you may use a stick for some of them but wood does not conduit electricity very good. Cutting a tree in useable sixes is hard to do with a stick.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Old Vet said:


> How are you going to get Iron or copper for tools. I guess you may use a stick for some of them but wood does not conduit electricity very good. Cutting a tree in useable sixes is hard to do with a stick.


Playing the Devil's advocate ound:ound:


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

It depends on so very much. Are you happy with a few fruit trees and a veggie diet? That would take less land than if you want meat and need to raise feed for critters. If you just want to utilize wild game, and glean from nature, you need control over a fair tract of land. 

Me, I personally prefer the sticks and solitude. I want no neighbors stealing my moose and elk and deer. So it takes more land for me to be happy/feel food secure. I could not be happy and feel secure with less than a couple square miles of land. When you talk about wild game, if you have enough land to control their habitat, you have less of a need to raise animals of the domestic sort, and so can concentrate more on growing a good garden and other crops. My actual domestic food production area would only need to be a couple acres probably, unless I was depending on raising critters, then I would probably need 40 acres for my grain and hay production. Wild game is just much less work.

IMO, having enough land for a sustainable wild game population, and to avoid neighbors, is more valuable than almost anything else you can do. This takes a relatively larger area of land than most think. A party of say 6 deer on 40 acres, would be used up shortly. They also would range a lot outside of this zone. A half a dozen moose though, would be sustainable indefinitely. If you have the proper habitat on enough acres, a few moose will stick around like a cow in the barnyard.

The trade off, is these highly productive, wild game areas that are sustainable, are in isolated from the city areas, and are usually too dang cold for most folks. But I like it this way. 

Me, I need 1000 acres at a minimum. We all have a different take on this, so it makes the original gist a hard question to answer for someone else, who may be tickled with 10 acres...

And that is what makes these threads so interesting...


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## SCRancher (Jan 11, 2011)

To me the more land the better - I like the south eastern part of the USA for climate but still then like FarmerDale - the more land the better - just to actually purchase 1k acres in the South East would require millions of dollars.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

SCRancher said:


> To me the more land the better - I like the south eastern part of the USA for climate but still then like FarmerDale - the more land the better - just to actually purchase 1k acres in the South East would require millions of dollars.


That is the thing up here. Until a few years ago, one could buy a quarter section of woodlands, for under 200 bucks an acre. Good soil, good moisture, short season, sure, but with lots of water, wildlife, etc...

Sometimes it is hard to comprehend how much food some of these northern areas produce in say 120 days, for those in the south. Just because there is a longer growing season, does not always mean you can grow more food. 18-20 hour days in summer make up for a lot of days of time.


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

farmerDale said:


> That is the thing up here. Until a few years ago, one could buy a quarter section of woodlands, for under 200 bucks an acre. Good soil, good moisture, short season, sure, but with lots of water, wildlife, etc...
> 
> Sometimes it is hard to comprehend how much food some of these northern areas produce in say 120 days, for those in the south. Just because there is a longer growing season, does not always mean you can grow more food. 18-20 hour days in summer make up for a lot of days of time.


And a good, hard, real winter for breaking compaction and disease and insect cycles balances things out too


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

True enough, Dale K. An advantage I often forget we have. Probably because I am concentrating on swatting mosquitoes the size of hummingbirds.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

bluetogreens said:


> to be fully self sufficient and modern at the same time, 150+ acres,
> Enough for biomass/fuel oil generation, forage, garden, hay generation, heat fuel etc. this would be for a family from 5-50.
> 
> Heating with rocket stoves, solar dehydration, creek/spring house cooling or small fridge freezer on wood gas/syngas. Solar and wind generation.
> ...


You would also have to go in with a massive stockpile of pots and pans and glass and dishes and canning jars since you will not be able to get those anymore. Genetic diversity and multiple families will be important. So will a large salt and mineral supply. Your animals will of course start to break down after awhile due to persistent inbreeding, not much you can do about that. You should have an extensive seed supply kept in a climate controlled area because if you ever have a total crop failure you will not be able to replace your seed stock from year to year. 
You will need a loom and spinning wheel for clothes and hopefully someone is a blacksmith and you stockpiled all you need for metal work so you can repair your tools. Hopefully you also know how to make literally everything from scratch from furniture to baskets to buckets.


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## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

OK, assuming "prime" land in a "prime" location and I need money for NOTHING....I bet it could be done in 5 ac. Now, that would be basic living - 5-6 main crops, with seasonal "other" crops, 2 or 3 small game meat sources, no fresh milk, sweets only it you could find a honey tree, no lights, internet, etc. So menu planning would be easy....same this as yesterday. If you want to have some currency, you will need more space for something to grow/raise/etc to sell/trade. If you are doing this without the outside world you won't be able to order xyz to make abc, so you would have to produce this "item" 100% from what you have on your land. I'm sure it can be done, not sure I'm up for the task, but if life took a big left turn I'd do it but it wouldn't be a happy life.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

The more foraging you plan on doing, the more acres you will need. No way will you have a steady, dependable game supply or plant supply off of a few acres.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Allen W said:


> The more foraging you plan on doing, the more acres you will need. No way will you have a steady, dependable game supply or plant supply off of a few acres.


Exactly. To be self contained, you need enough land that the diversity of habitat allows production of various things. Hillsides may grow hazlenuts, but they won't grow fish. A lake may grow fish, but it won't grow wheat. An open field will grow barley, but it will be rare to glean mushrooms. A large stand of trees may produce an elk, but it will not make a good garden. A deer can cross a few acres in a few bounds. A moose takes a few acres to turn around on... lol.


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## planzman (Feb 28, 2012)

snakeshooter1 said:


> I have a mental exercise for you. How many acres do you think it would take to be totally self-sufficient and grow everything you would need to survive and maybe even thrive? The idea is to be able to live without any outside help or interference. The perimeters are land is paid for in full along with hand tools maybe even small wood stove and dutch ovens. You would not have any money coming in but any property tax would have been paid for by small trust. Sort of hermit leaves society type thing. Eta How many acres for wood lot and garden and maybe few livestock just enough to get by and be self reproducing.


http://1bog.org/blog/live-off-the-land-2/


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

You need to consider your manpower hours so to speak. I've started to reply, this is the third time............it's alot to think about

I feel like I'm set up fairly well, I'm still working on the fine tuning.....but it all burns down to this...........

Can you and your family provide enough man hours to keep up with the work of survival. Can you think out of the box to repair the tools you need to provide for yourself.....can/do you have materials to build and repair if needed.....do you have mutiples of things that won't last

My grain raising is an example..........If I can't get wheels and bearing one day, or the tractor won't run my pull type combine will have to become a stationary thresher......if my binder tears up and can't be repaired then I'm down to a scythe or cradle.....6 to 10 with tractor and combine per day, less with binder, whole lot less if I have to cut, bind, stack, and haul to a stationary combine turned thresher turned by a horsepower. My capacity would be greatly diminished....both from grain for the house, and the barn...
How many hours a day each week does it take to actually survive, can you/do you have the skills to.......however many acres you have......can you work/use them productively....with simple tools and skills.....without access to petroleum/biofuel, without simple hardware like lag bolts, wirefencing, nails, scews, ect.

Can you work from sun up to sun down 6 or 7 days a week............will your family....will you be able to stand the privation that living on even 2000 acres might lead to.....that's just a little over 3 square miles......some places it takes that much or more for 1 cow and calf...............

It is a lot to think about


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

http://1bog.org/blog/live-off-the-land-2/ 

Like
Farming on paper, with a pecil is just like the above.....looks mighty good but doesn't consider the possible variables that can occur........


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## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

That live off the land link doesn't include any ground for growing food for those animals. Realistically in my area allowing for crop rotation and letting land go fallow for a while, some timber, firewood, and some for trade, about 40 acres.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Patchouli said:


> You would also have to go in with a massive stockpile of pots and pans and glass and dishes and canning jars since you will not be able to get those anymore. Genetic diversity and multiple families will be important. So will a large salt and mineral supply. Your animals will of course start to break down after awhile due to persistent inbreeding, not much you can do about that. You should have an extensive seed supply kept in a climate controlled area because if you ever have a total crop failure you will not be able to replace your seed stock from year to year.
> You will need a loom and spinning wheel for clothes and hopefully someone is a blacksmith and you stockpiled all you need for metal work so you can repair your tools. Hopefully you also know how to make literally everything from scratch from furniture to baskets to buckets.


Hearing you describe what is needed makes me wonder how humanity ever made it until the Lodge and Ball corporations came into existence.

If you abandoned animal husbandry and agriculture eventually then you wouldn't have to worry about "total crop failure" or excessive inbreeding. You'd still have plants and meat on your table if you have some good foraging skills.

You can discard the loom and spinning wheel and just use leather and furs. Run about in a loincloth in summer. The tattered old pair of shorts I've got aren't much more than that as it is.

As for metal tools, they are a luxury I wouldn't want to do without, but you can survive without them. One of the issues with the primitive tribes when they came into contact with white man was their desire for metal tools. Knives and axes primarily, which would do the jobs faster and let them get on with their entertainment activities sooner (primarily hunting and warfare).

Your "all or nothing" mentality is foolish and it's what keeps many people from ever wanting to strive for self-sufficiency in the first place. It can be a series of steps and stages in the wise person's life. You don't have to step out of the downtown heated and air conditioned condo and go naked into the grass hut in the wilderness.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

plowhand said:


> You need to consider your manpower hours so to speak. I've started to reply, this is the third time............it's alot to think about
> 
> I feel like I'm set up fairly well, I'm still working on the fine tuning.....but it all burns down to this...........
> 
> ...


Homesteading ... you're doing it wrong. 

If I wanted to work that hard I'd go get a job in the city where they pay me decently for it.

Divided across 3-4 people, the "survival" aspects of our homestead constitute about an hour per day, of everyone's time. That's everything from milking the goat to feeding the rabbits to gardening. At times per year it will become a little more on a daily basis, but it rarely takes from "sun up to sun down" like we've been taught that farmers ought to work.

The economic aspects of our homestead constitute the greater part of our time. I average about 4 hours per day in the workshop, on the days I actually work. (Probably 4 days per week). My wife and her work makes up probably 70-90 hours _per year_. This is to provide us with things from the world _which we desire_ but which are not needful. 

The needful economic aspects of our homestead (property taxes and vehicle tags) constitute 63 hours out of the year. 

That leaves us with a lot of free time to do other things or start new projects and see if we like them. 

Your life improves when you stop worrying about how much money you need or whether you'll ever get ahead. When you just accept whatever comes in and learn to subsist on that. I have been wealthy, and I have been poor, but with having more free time I have never been happier.


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

snakeshooter1 said:


> I have a mental exercise for you. How many acres do you think it would take to be totally self-sufficient and grow everything you would need to survive and maybe even thrive? The idea is to be able to live without any outside help or interference. The perimeters are land is paid for in full along with hand tools maybe even small wood stove and dutch ovens. You would not have any money coming in but any property tax would have been paid for by small trust. Sort of hermit leaves society type thing. Eta How many acres for wood lot and garden and maybe few livestock just enough to get by and be self reproducing.


I'd want at least 50 acres, 20 cleared, 30 acres of virgin timber in my neck of the woods., and 25 acres of swamp from the hill to the run of the swamp....virgin timber in the swamp land also.

I'd want land with virgin timber, so I could build a house and barn that would stand the elements....heart pine, black cypress, yellow poplar. Houses can be built that'll stand the test of time from such.....barns also.

You could have a straw thicket, get straw for strawberry beds, blue berry patch, vegetable garden ect. It's good to go in stalls, and nests.

I'd want rails to fence in my 20 acres of fenced land, they'd need to be out of long leaf pine,....need them to keep field safe, and to split my 20 acres into 4 fields, 1 for truck stuff, vegetables, taters irish and sweet, 1 for corn and field peas, 1 for wheat and oats, and oats and winter peas mixed, followed by fields peas for soil building , hay, and dry peas for seed and cooking.....

Oh yeah...that'll only work if the insect pests will fall back to around to 1920-1930 levels.....try it today and you won't eat field pea hardly 
that ain't stung.

When I got done building, I'd probably have another small field, where I could add a little cotton and flax to my rotation, for rope and cloth.

That is, if I was allowed the seed I'd want to be locked away with.

As to livestock, I'd like 6 ewes each, hair sheep and regular, a ram of each type, a pair of sows, 1 tamworth, 1 large black, 1 Hampshire boar from a gentle bloodline.......a couple milk goats,1 Nubian billy a couple good guernsey/jersey cross milk cows, a bull, and two steers broke to harness and yoke.....no need for a horse or mule if I stay put on the place....

If I could carry what else I'd want...just what I could get on and in a 40' container.....I could do alot better.

If all was just a dozen to 2 dozen hand tools, a stove and pipe and a few cast pots....I'd want at least 5 square miles...If I had to live on the place, what I could forage, and raise by hand,....and provide for a wife, and 2 children. The land being in the state it is today...as to timber, wildlife, and ect.


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## snakeshooter1 (Mar 8, 2009)

plowhand said:


> I'd want at least 50 acres, 20 cleared, 30 acres of virgin timber in my neck of the woods., and 25 acres of swamp from the hill to the run of the swamp....virgin timber in the swamp land also.
> 
> I'd want land with virgin timber, so I could build a house and barn that would stand the elements....heart pine, black cypress, yellow poplar. Houses can be built that'll stand the test of time from such.....barns also.
> 
> ...


once you start thinking about it the total goes way up doesn't it. The totally self sufficient part is what does it. you can do it on few acres if you trade. 40 acres and a mule type thing down here in south. My great grand parents did it. But it was a hard life. I was thinking about pioneers, they had tools and dishes that would last. We are used to a disposable society now. Why not a dutch oven and cast iron fryer that would last the rest of your life and your grandchildren's lives. I have some from my grand parents not sure where they got them from. I think Ernie is living my dream but hopefully in about 10 years I can get there myself. God willing!


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

You can discard the loom and spinning wheel and just use leather and furs. Run about in a loincloth in summer. The tattered old pair of shorts I've got aren't much more than that as it is

Reckon that'd be one way to keep the gnats out ones' face while they were outside working!


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## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

snakeshooter1 said:


> I have a mental exercise for you. How many acres do you think it would take to be totally self-sufficient and grow everything you would need to survive and maybe even thrive? The idea is to be able to live without any outside help or interference. The perimeters are land is paid for in full along with hand tools maybe even small wood stove and dutch ovens. You would not have any money coming in but any property tax would have been paid for by small trust. Sort of hermit leaves society type thing. Eta How many acres for wood lot and garden and maybe few livestock just enough to get by and be self reproducing.


Hi; This is an interesting hypothetical question! We are pretty well self-sufficient on about ten acres with five+ being fenced pasture. We have raised a wide variety of fruits; vegetables and wheat plus goats, chickens and have had as many as three horse here. We mow hay with a horse and mower and have used a scythe at times. We do have electric but this house ran without it originally. Our wood lot is 20 acres but five miles away.We are near the ocean and lakes and have a stream crossing our property.

Planning to live without money would take a few changes even here. Letting electric go isn't a problem as we have a hand pump in the basement and can haul water upstairs. But with out money our page wire and barb wire fences wouldn't be here! Page wire is the only wire that keeps are goats in.It does rust and is expensive to replace. 

We wouldn't have gas so that means no lawn mower to mow all this road frontage and keep weeds down and mow around the gardens.. We are too close to the road to let animals mow the lawn without being fenced and we don't like tying them. With no electric fence around the garden beds the deer would eat everything as the electric fence is the only deterrent that we have found that works. It is possible to mow the lawn around the garden and house with a horse and hay mower as long as you don't accidentally sever a guy wire the utility company as attached to their poles.

As for cutting trees in the wood lot with out a power saw that can be a problem. My husband did it with his Dad years ago using a two man cross cut saw. Both men were in tip top shape doing so. But like my husband said to me;" I would never go back to using a cross cut saw as it was grueling work." The power saw alternative requires gas .I suppose if one had enough wood land they could gather branches and chop them up with an ax.Anything is possible short term but in long cold winters it would take a heap of branches!

As for electricity the only free power is the sun coming in the window. Solar panels cost money as do most things. Anyway your post has made me start thinking ! Have a nice day.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Ernie said:


> Homesteading ... you're doing it wrong.
> 
> Your life improves when you stop worrying about how much money you need or whether you'll ever get ahead. When you just accept whatever comes in and learn to subsist on that. I have been wealthy, and I have been poor, but with having more free time I have never been happier.


I've found as long as I'm doing some thing, what I need will be there when I'm in a bind. Some times what got me out of a bind wasn't pretty or what I would have liked, but it was what was needed.

After the grandson's nest filling, rolling in it and throwing it like a monkey incident last week, I guess my philosophy didn't rub off on him.


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