# Ona's getting shiney!



## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I still have not had a chance to give her a bath yet. I've never been home when it was nice enough out! I think she's looking good with the brushing, can't wait to see how she will gleam after a bath. She's still not done shedding. I can't believe how much hair I'm still getting off of her.

Any suggestions on how to make her gleam like a pearl, like those beautiful cremello photos I've seen?


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## Cheribelle (Jul 23, 2007)

Wow, she IS looking good!


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

When I had my palomino I used to bathe him with a very diluted shampoo, rinsing super well, then once he was dry I'd brush some GloCoat spray into him and he'd be as shiny as a new minted penny. 

GloCoat made by PetEdge as a dog product, and you have to watch because it will make the hair so slick and soft that riding bareback = flying off the butt of the horse.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

Putting some corn oil in their feed will make them shiny too but it's also added fat so you need to reduce the amount of feed she's getting if you don't want any weight gain.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

My youngest daughters walk/trot horse was a flea bitten grey Appendix Quarter Horse mare with a mean streak. She'd find the biggest pile in the stall the night before the show and lay with her neck in it all night. This was after she was freshly bathed and braided. 

We found that any shampoo with bluing worked really well to make the white brilliant and most stain sprays worked well if you worked them
into the skin. To get the shine, and since she's not being ridden, ShowSheen works but since it's silicone based go easy on it to avoid hair breakage.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> My youngest daughters walk/trot horse was a flea bitten grey Appendix Quarter Horse mare with a mean streak. She'd find the biggest pile in the stall the night before the show and lay with her neck in it all night. This was after she was freshly bathed and braided.
> 
> We found that any shampoo with bluing worked really well to make the white brilliant and most stain sprays worked well if you worked them
> into the skin. To get the shine, and since she's not being ridden, ShowSheen works but since it's silicone based go easy on it to avoid hair breakage.


I agree - whitening shampoo (with bluing) work very well and eliminates yellow stains. But she's a horse; she will get stained and dirty. 

Personally I wouldn't waste products like ShowSheen unless you're doing a photo shoot or a show. It's not good for their hair, and it can build up and get sticky, and then you have to bathe them.

Vigorous grooming works really well; just keep at it. A damp cloth to finish always helps bring out the shine by wiping off the dust. I think she looks great!


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I don't think I'll use the ShowSheen except for shows and pictures, but that GloCoat does look interesting.

I diluted some hair conditioner and I've been rubbing it into her mane and tail before I brush them.

She's getting a bath today - yeehaw!!


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

Ona is looking good ffarmergirl. I use "Blue Dawn" to wash my horses and find it gives a nice sheen and a feel very close to "Show Sheen". It is a detergent but I've never had any dried skin when using it. It is the choice for cleaning wildlife that's been in oil.

Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

Wiping down after a full grooming does make a huge difference. It's almost like you're polishing the coat. The cloth helps redistribute natural oils and removes any last traces of dust or dander. When I'm grooming dogs I'll often put a VERY light spray of the GloCoat on and then rub it over by hand or with a cloth to put a last polish on the coat. 

You can also purchase laundry "bluing" still in some areas, and add a touch of that to any shampoos. Do NOT EVER put bluing on the horse, unless you're fond of blue streaks, as it will stain hair if it's put on straight. We used to add a few drops of it to every gallon of dog shampoo back in the "old days" to help brighten up light coats. I still remember explaining to an owner that her dog sporting the racing stripe of blue down one side would grow out... after a new bather ignored my instructions and squirted a line of the bluing onto the dog while washing it. Sigh.


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## tinah (Feb 26, 2009)

A good grooming (curry, brush, finish brush, cloth wipe) is far better for your horse's skin than a bath. And your arm muscles, which is probably why most people bathe them instead.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Keep in mind that many of the "whitening" shampoos don't really do much (or anything at all) to the coat, but create a visual effect to the eye that makes your animal appear whiter. (e.g. the addition of "blue" tint to whites make the white appear brighter, but don't actually *make* it whiter or brighter). So, they have a purpose -- before shows, for example -- but for general bathing, they are no better than regular shampoos, and far more expensive. Some products are designed to lift yellow stains (e.g. Cowboy Magic Green Spot Remover), which do actually bleach out stains - but again, I would use them sparingly just to be safe.

I usually give my horses one or two good baths a year, and then just rinses and grooming. Last year we were in such a drought that we didn't bathe them ever -- just buckets and sponges, but not a true, full bath. And guess what - they look just as good.  Baths are short-term; grooming is long-term.

(But, I will conclude with this -- I don't own a grey (or light) horse, and probably never will!)


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

You aren't kidding, Tinah! My right arm is all muscley now. I really need to start using my left arm more. I'm getting lopsided.

Offthegrid, I gave her her first bath today. That was kind of a miserable experience. I think I might use the buckets and sponges in the future instead. Having a white horse is helpful for my OCD because, no matter how many hours I put into cleaning her, she will never be perfectly clean for more than 5 minutes. I'm glad she benefits from the constant brushing!


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## tinah (Feb 26, 2009)

you get to where you use your curry in your hand closest to the horse's butt, and your body brush in the hand closest to the horse's head with practice. that way when you change sides you change arms.


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## Fetherhd (Aug 16, 2012)

adding cider vinegar and a little corn oil to her feed will bring an amazing shine and bloom to her coat. start slow with the vinegar...some horses like it...Shooter will start drooling before I get it into her bucket...some horses don't, Beauty will not even EAT out of Shooters bucket because she can smell the vinegar residue. It makes a world of difference in their coats though and does not cost much.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

I used to show halter horses back in the day and the best thing I can tell you to keep a nice hair coat besides lots of elbow grease is to keep her out of the sun. The sun will dry out and bleach a coat making it dull and "burnt" looking. 

My horse that I show goes out at late evening and stays out all night, she is stalled during the day. I do not bathe her very often as that strips the oil from the coat. I curry, brush and rub her down daily. I use my fingers to comb her mane and tail, I will use a wide tooth comb on show days only.

Add some corn oil to her feed, start with a small amount and work your way up to a half cup daily. That will make her hair coat shine. (also give her lots of energy so if she's "hot" to begin with, you might rethink this idea).

Oh a turn out sheet will help keep her clean too and protect the hair coat. 

Very pretty! Use sunscreen on a white nose to keep the skin from burning, I use the type made for human babies on any horses I have with white faces.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

How much vinegar, Fetherhd?

Sidepasser this is a really stupid question but I've already won the "idiot of the year award" this year anyway so what the heck! It will show how green my horn is but oh, well! The question is . . . . don't horses sleep at night, even when they're outside? How can they get enough exercise if they're not being ridden and they're sleeping while they're turned out?

The sun is very mild where we live. I have been wondering about the sunburn issue because I have heard that horses with white blazes are prone to sunburn on their noses. Then I heard that cremellos don't get sunburn because they actually have pigment in their skin . . . . I have no clue. I'll get the sunscreen - better to have it and not need it. 

I need to get her a turnout sheet.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

fffarmergirl said:


> Sidepasser this is a really stupid question but I've already won the "idiot of the year award" this year anyway so what the heck! It will show how green my horn is but oh, well! The question is . . . . don't horses sleep at night, even when they're outside? How can they get enough exercise if they're not being ridden and they're sleeping while they're turned out?


They don't sleep all night. I've never watched my horses at night, but I occasionally catch them sleeping during the day as well; I've never seen any of them sleep for more than an hour at a time. If I get up early and go out to feed unexpectedly I'll catch most of them lying down, but my guess is that they've been alternating grazing/eating, hanging out, walking about, and sleeping for most of the night.

A young horse gets all the exercise it needs if it's turned out enough. It's when it's stalled that it can't choose exercise v. sleep/loafing.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I Thought When They Were Standing Very Still In The Pasture They Were Lightly Sleeping And When They LaYed Down They Were Getting Rem Sleep, AndThat They Sleep Lightly All Night. Now I'm Going To Have To Start Spying On Them.

Posting From My Phone Forgive All Caps. We Bought The Stuff To Open Up Her Stall And Build A Big Long Paddock Behind It With A 3 Sided Shelter In It So She Can Have 24Hr Turnout. I Know Pretty Isn't Everything But As A Rank Beginner, Making Her PRetty Is Just About All I Have The ability To Do. Plus She's Too Young To Do Anything Else With. I'm Not Being Shallow I Just Want To Be Doing Something With Her And I Would Like To Do Well In Halter Class.

I Think Maybe Next Year We Might Be Ready For Showmanship And The Year After That Idk, Then When She Is ThRee We Can Start Her Under Saddle?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

My first horse is a long story of what not to do when buying your first horse so without telling that long story, after we moved him to a new barn he was unrideable for a time and grooming is what I did too. I spent hours grooming and talking to him and even learned to make a wisp and use that too. He glowed and shone and it really did help him as he became the horse I thought I'd bought. So I understand making your horse pretty through grooming when that's all you can do. You should check out the book, "Grooming to Win".


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Horses do not sleep for hours at a time, they may lie down for a hour and sleep, then they get up and go about grazing or doing other horse things. Some horses will not lie down to sleep at all outside their stall if they do not have a companion horse to keep "watch" as some are just too cautious about being easy prey. They will sleep in the daytime in their stalls. My mare sleeps flat out in her stall during the day and it is a busy show barn. She is used to the noise and commotion and feels "safe" in her stall.

Out in the pasture, she will lightly sleep, but only if there are other horses around will she lie down.

Some people use jolly balls or large beach balls that their horses chase, kick and push around to keep them exercised. Some will pony a horse off another, others use a hotwalker, etc. they get plenty of exercise outside if they have enough room to move around. Feeding hay in several spots will keep them moving around too.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I want to pony Ona behind the trail horse I'm getting. I have a sneaking suspicion it's not easy to do, though.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

And now I find out her feet are small. I thought they were small because she's a baby! I'm going to look at the other yearlings' feet later. They'll grow, right? And her upright pasterns and posty legs. I went online and read the things that I have to be careful about with that. Then I read that for some reason horses with posty legs are winning a lot in halter classes. Somebody said they can grow out of upright pasterns?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I've never heard of a horse growing out of upright pasterns and if you're looking at a general using horse, she'll probably be fine. 

I'm not real keen on following the halter class trends because halter horses are intended to look pretty in a hog fat sorta way and what looks pretty in the show ring doesn't ensure a good solid horse. In my opinion, a common headed horse who's conformation is more in keeping with breed standard is a far better buy than a pretty horse with lesser conformation.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

What are Ona's bloodlines?


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Irish Pixie, she's got reining blood lines. Hollywood Dunit and Peppy San are her great great grandfathers on her sire's side, and I hear there were other good horses on his side but I don't know which ones are good. Kalmians Girl, Texas Kicker, Tunos Merry, Dun It Once More, Miss Texas Topaz, TRR kicker once more, Miss Nino, Docs Budha, Miss Sadie Alice, Sadie Budha, Nina's Peppy San, Lady's Peppy Budha. Sire: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/slippery+budha+dunit

Then on her mom's side Mr Baron Bell, Dark Pine, Sir Bar, Twin Bar, Shi Delight, Skip Shi, Bar Miss Delight, Dark Pines Dude, Chance Champion, Moon Deck, Top Moon, Jaguar, Joshua Moon, JCertified Chic, Joshuas Fancy . . . IDK, I don't want to type them all in but I think one of the Joshuas and one of the Moons had good records? Dam: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/a+chance+at+joshua

I'd rather ride a common headed horse but I think it will be more fun to show a pretty one! That was part of my agreement when I got her - my friend would help me with her if I'd go to the shows with her and trot her out because my friend can't trot anymore. I definitely want to ride her when she's old enough and I'm experienced enough, though - I want to take her on long trail rides in the forest. And I did daydream a little about reining but I guess that's out.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

You already linked it for me. 

At least she's not Impressive bred.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Does she have good lines on her dam's side? I think I was told she does but my memory is like a steel sieve.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

There are no outstanding horses up close but she's decently bred. 

My opinion is that she was bred for her color more than anything.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I would also think she was bred for color. The dam goes back to Jet Deck and I'm not a fan of those lines at all because they tend to hide a lot of TB breeding and I just figure if somebody wants a TB, they should go buy one rather than muddling QH bloodlines. I have dealt with Jet Deck offspring and I find that you need to breed very carefully or they can have a TB mindset. 

Peppy San actually belonged to a very wealthy Canadian who owned a very large ranch in BC. He rider/trainer was a friend of mine so I actually rode him on more than one occasion. Chunky was pretty selective about mares bred to him so I always find it a bit suspect that almost every QH in north America goes back to Peppy San but back in the 60's and 70's there were more than a few guys that were pretty creative with papers.


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

Wow, apparently there are plenty worse out there!

http://www.justwinranch.com/jwrstars.html

How is this desired? I don't get it, seems unhealthy. Don't people want to RIDE the horses they are breeding too, or are they all just pasture ornaments? And if so what is the point really?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

lasergrl, those are perfect examples of what happens when people breed for a single trait.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

Colonel Freckles on her top side and Two Eyed Jack on her bottom jumped out at me. I'm kinda partial to those bloodlines because my stallion (now gelding) has them only in the reverse order. He's a really good minded horse and passed it along to his offspring too. 

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/painted+thunder+cloud

He still had his man parts when this picture was taken.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

lasergrl said:


> Wow, apparently there are plenty worse out there!
> 
> http://www.justwinranch.com/jwrstars.html
> 
> How is this desired? I don't get it, seems unhealthy. Don't people want to RIDE the horses they are breeding too, or are they all just pasture ornaments? And if so what is the point really?


Those horses are near perfect representations of Impressive bred (multiple lines top and bottom) halter horses. They don't ride, many don't stay sound enough to finish under saddle. 

Disgusting, isn't it? :flame:


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Well - I guess her post legs and upright pasterns won't be a problem in the halter world LOL! It's sick that people breed for that but I swear she just came out that way. Huge, with a humongous QH hiney and those legs. My friend said "Well - I guess she looks like she'd make a good halter horse." Now I know what she meant.

She's the only cremello foal they've ever had. They were very surprised when they saw her! I wasn't even considering getting a horse when I met her. It's kind of an interesting story. In all the years we'd lived here we'd never got to know the neighbors until one day their horses showed up in our pasture. DH called and let my neighbor know how much we enjoyed seeing them there, I enjoyed seeing them, and I went out and started brushing them and fell in love with them. They lured me over to meet my neighbor. Come to find out, her husband had had a major heart attack and was unable to make hay last year, or help her out at all with the horses. No health insurance - couldn't get all the medical help he needed. She was doing all of the work on the entire farm and busting her bottom. I fell in love with Ona and my life changed, and my neighbor and I started helping one another out.

I considered changing Ona's name to "Omen" because I think she's a good omen. I'm superstitious, I admit. She changed my life by luring me over to meet my now best friend and giving me access to the type of life I've always dreamed of living. Brushing horses and shoveling shtuff. Maybe it doesn't seem so great to a lot of people but it makes me very happy.


I've wondered if people ever got creative with papers. What's a TB?

I found you all a picture of the new breed standard:


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

TB= Thoroughbred.

It's really not funny to breed for something that will not stay sound, have intermittent paralysis, and have no earthly purpose but to look like a cartoon caricature of a once outstanding breed.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

No, it's really not funny, but what wins is what most people breed. You get a few breeders that are in it for the money, and have a lot of it tho throw around and you get trends like this. The QH people should look at what happened to the Arabians.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

You'd think that after the whole Impressive fiasco, they AQHA would look at things differently. 

I went looking a few years ago for a new project and all I wanted was another old style (built like a bulldog) QH. Apparently, my request was unreasonable because I covered a lot of country in Alberta, Saskatchewan and BC. Even after breeders assured me that they had exactly what I was looking for, all I found was spindly legs, teeny little feet, narrow chests, long backs and post legs. They all had pretty little heads but from the ears back, not so much.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

wr, that is so right. I had a lady who held judges cards for APHA & AQHA come out who was looking for a stallion to breed her mare to. She kept going on about how he was the best built stallion she had looked at so far EXCEPT for his big feet. She mumbled and argued with herself about those feet the entire time she was here. I was glad when she left and even gladder when she didn't call back to schedule a breeding.LOL


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Teej said:


> wr, that is so right. I had a lady who held judges cards for APHA & AQHA come out who was looking for a stallion to breed her mare to. She kept going on about how he was the best built stallion she had looked at so far EXCEPT for his big feet. She mumbled and argued with herself about those feet the entire time she was here. I was glad when she left and even gladder when she didn't call back to schedule a breeding.LOL


It's nice that lady was so worried about your boy's big feet. Without people like her, vets and corrective farriers would be out of work.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Molly Mckee said:


> No, it's really not funny, but what wins is what most people breed. You get a few breeders that are in it for the money, and have a lot of it tho throw around and you get trends like this. The QH people should look at what happened to the Arabians.


I think AQHA surpassed AHA in stupidity years ago- after all they've pretty much ruined APHA and ApHC as well.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

Molly Mckee said:


> No, it's really not funny, but what wins is what most people breed. You get a few breeders that are in it for the money, and have a lot of it tho throw around and you get trends like this. The QH people should look at what happened to the Arabians.


I think it's ironic that the farm name is "Just Win Ranch." Pretty much sums it up.


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

One friend of mine looked at halter horses at a show once and said that they looked like they were being bred and conditioned to be meat.

I admit. I laughed.

I feel a horse should be able to do a job. Standing and looking pretty really isn't much of a job.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

So the pleasure world is kind of like the fashion world. Just a bunch of ridiculous trends that people like for a little while because they think they look cool. Sounds kind of like what they've done with dogs. I didn't realize people did that with horses. Wow.

It's funny somebody said it looked like the halter horses were bred for meat. My dad was a butcher and I was raised in the meat world. One day I was looking at Ona and thought "Wow - that's a big meaty haunch she's got there." LOL But I love her and I wouldn't be making fun of her if she knew what I was saying. 

After you all mentioned feet, I started looking at other horse feet. I noticed all newborn foals have tiny little feet. Then I looked at a yearling rescue, not bred there, and her feet aren't any bigger than Ona's. I also looked at pasturns and noticed none of the adults have upright pasterns, not even Ona's dam and sire. 
When do the growth spurts start affecting the feet? 

I'm just guessing, but I think one of the things that's making Ona's feet look smaller might be that the hooves are being trimmed differently, to make up for the pasturns. Not sure - like I said I'm just guessing and I have no clue what I'm talking about. I would imagine they would do that, though. 

If you were looking for the old type of quarter horse, might you find it in the unregistered "grade" horses? The ones who were just bred in the pasture because somebody wasn't putting any effort into trying to make them turn out a certain way?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Kinda like the fashion world except that the trends effect _generations_ of horses. The halter breeders are the most ridiculous but the pleasure folks are right behind them. 

Are you comparing Ona's tiny feet, upright pasterns, and postlegs to horses with decent conformation or halter bred horses? Has your farrier said anything about corrective trimming? He or she shouldn't be making Ona's hooves smaller regardless.

Horses with good conformation don't just happen willy nilly, they aren't all grade horses, and people are most definitely trying to make them turn out a certain way. They were breeding horses with good conformation that at least have a chance at staying sound. There are foundation bred with selective new lines added Quarter Horses (registered) that are specifically bred to be the "old" type- big feet, normal pasterns, normal sized heads/ears, normal back legs in plain old colors. These horses are found on ranches, in "working" horse classes, running barrels and poles, basically in places were a horse actually does something instead of standing around looking pretty. 

Also, something you said earlier begs me to ask this question- since postlegged horses are currently in favor in the halter world (and you're very happy about this) do you think it's moral/ethical to breed horses for certain conformation faults even though it may make the horse unsound?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

fffarmergirl, I have no problem riding a grade horse and have done it often but the resale value on a grade horse is a fraction of a papered horse and I use papers to see how a horse is bred, what I can expect out of it and to be very sure what isn't there. 

Making a good ranch horse isn't as easy as just going out and finding an unwanted horse somewhere. Conformation is critical, I need the big open foot, a stout chest and that huge hip and it absolutely has to come with a sane and willing temperament and I can make a pretty accurate assessment based on pedigree. I had a very expensive lesson on HYPP and Impressive once and I also like to verify that I'm not buying another huge problem. 

I can see why you would assume that any old horse would work on a ranch but I still can't understand why I should have such a problem finding a traditional style QH, when breed standards remain the same as always. 

It has been my experience that fads in the horse industry come and go and ultimately, every strange cycle ends. Breeders who try and remain trendy, end up losing their shirts because they're always buying high dollar breeding stock during a trend and before they can turn a profit, they have to buy new breeding stock to meet the expectations of the next trend or trendy bloodlines.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I don't think it's morally ethical at all. Is it morally ethical to show a horse in halter class, if she just happened to turn out the way she did? I got the horse - whether my reasons for getting her seem ridiculours to others or not, she's my horse. She's too young to ride and I want to do things with her and I can only do with her those things that her body can do. So if she's only able to safely be shown in halter, then I have two choices - show her in halter or don't do anything with her. If I get her out and about at all these shows, she'll go on lots of rides in trailers and be surrounded often by other people and horses. It will be good for her. So why not just do it? It's not her fault she has posty legs, and I want her to be a nice horse who doesn't spook easily. I think she had fun at the clinic we went to.

I have no idea if the foals/yearlings I'm looking at have decent conformation or if they're halter bred. I would think that, because they are rescues, they're all from different people and maybe not all bred for the same traits. Do all newborn foals have tiny feet? Do all newborns & yearlings have more upright pasterns than older horses?

Looking at the horses bred by my friend - like I said, the adults appear to me to have big feet and their pasterns do not appear to be upright. To my amateur eye, they seem to be running alright and have nice long strides. Ona kind of prances around. I thought it was just a cute baby way of acting but now I'm reading that she probably moves that way because of her conformation. Her parents don't prance.

ETAsk - I wonder if it's the prancing that makes the halter people breed the feet and legs that way.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

wr said:


> fffarmergirl, I have no problem riding a grade horse and have done it often but the resale value on a grade horse is a fraction of a papered horse and I use papers to see how a horse is bred, what I can expect out of it and to be very sure what isn't there.


Earlier in another thread I mentioned that, if it was me, I would not agree to board horses from certain people if the horses weren't registered (or trained, or at least kept "pretty" enough to attract someone who thinks "pretty" is valuable). That why I said that - they have poor resale value and the likelihood of recovering what you've lost just in feeding the animals is very low if you can't collect board and the people say "oh, just sell the horse and keep the money and we'll call it even." I wasn't insulting grade horses - just so you know. I'd ride anything that could and would go, stop, turn left and right and back up and not throw me.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

fffarmergirl said:


> Earlier in another thread I mentioned that, if it was me, I would not agree to board horses from certain people if the horses weren't registered (or trained, or at least kept "pretty" enough to attract someone who thinks "pretty" is valuable). That why I said that - they have poor resale value and the likelihood of recovering what you've lost just in feeding the animals is very low if you can't collect board and the people say "oh, just sell the horse and keep the money and we'll call it even." I wasn't insulting grade horses - just so you know. I'd ride anything that could and would go, stop, turn left and right and back up and not throw me.


 I have no idea about the western world but in the English world, an unregistered horse that can jump, do dressage, pack kids around safely and/or is sane and honest about whatever job it performs and is sound to boot....that horse is worth a pretty penny whether it is "pretty" or not. 
I have never, ever heard of a boarding stable in the east, west, south or north (or any where in between) who would turn down a horse to board because it is unregistered or ugly. Nor untrained.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I would also like to say that there are a few things on my bucket list before running a boarding stable: those would be things like having all my teeth pulled without anesthesia, hell freezing over, and dogwoods barking.
You should go and board at a few boarding stables before you think of having one yourself. It's a thankless job (hard to do properly and pretty much impossible to please all the boarders) and if you think horse people are catty and rough in an online forum, try a few good sized boarding stables, or even small ones. It's pretty much hot and cold running estrogen and constant complaining and backstabbing. They should do a reality TV show about them.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm right with you, Lisa! I think boarding would be about as awesome as being a landlord - even less so. Not only do you do a heck of a lot of work for a little bit of money, but you have to hunt down your paycheck every month. A reality TV show would be GREAT. Why is it horse people are notoriously that way? I have a theory - it's stepping in horse pee that does it. You know estrogen pills are made from horse pee, right? Estrogen patches, too - so it does absorb through the skin. All that estrogen is bound to make our hormones go insane.

HEY! I just thought of something else! Tlhat might be why so many post-menopausal (and post complete hysterectomy, like me) women love horses so much. It's instinctual - we need the estrogen!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

fffarmergirl said:


> I don't think it's morally ethical at all. Is it morally ethical to show a horse in halter class, if she just happened to turn out the way she did? I got the horse - whether my reasons for getting her seem ridiculours to others or not, she's my horse. She's too young to ride and I want to do things with her and I can only do with her those things that her body can do. So if she's only able to safely be shown in halter, then I have two choices - show her in halter or don't do anything with her. If I get her out and about at all these shows, she'll go on lots of rides in trailers and be surrounded often by other people and horses. It will be good for her. So why not just do it?
> 
> I have no idea if the foals/yearlings I'm looking at have decent conformation or if they're halter bred. I would think that, because they are rescues, they're all from different people and maybe not all bred for the same traits. Do all newborn foals have tiny feet? Do all newborns & yearlings have more upright pasterns than older horses?
> 
> ...


If you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem. I felt so strongly about this that my daughters completely switched over to hunters and dressage from pleasure and I started breeding warmblood and warmblood sport horses. I would never breed for an unsound "pretty" horse, ever. 

I don't know what you mean by prancing but it's unlikely the product of her poor conformation. 

You are correct- your horse and what you do with it is your choice. I suggest you start reading everything available on conformation and horse care. A good book to start with is "The Horse" by J. Warren Evens, et al. the latest edition is the best. It was required reading for the kids in my 4H group.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

It is important to note that halter class is a very small facet of the QH industry, in which horses are being shown for points that will raise the value of their offspring so the high dollar babies to be shown for points to raise the value of their offspring but not in no way represents how a typical QH is used. 

It should also be mentioned that when I scour 3 provinces for a horse, I'm not looking for decent or good enough, I am looking for what I feel is absolutely perfect and when I find absolutely perfect, I'm prepared to pay very well for it.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

fffarmergirl said:


> Earlier in another thread I mentioned that, if it was me, I would not agree to board horses from certain people if the horses weren't registered (or trained, or at least kept "pretty" enough to attract someone who thinks "pretty" is valuable). That why I said that - they have poor resale value and the likelihood of recovering what you've lost just in feeding the animals is very low if you can't collect board and the people say "oh, just sell the horse and keep the money and we'll call it even." I wasn't insulting grade horses - just so you know. I'd ride anything that could and would go, stop, turn left and right and back up and not throw me.


You're still not quite getting my point. The value I'm looking for in papers is bloodlines and I need to prove to clients that they aren't going to get saddled with an HYPP nightmare and most of the horses I'm buying fall way short of pretty. 

The horses I need have to be stout enough to rope a 2000 lb bull in a pasture, cut calves, work in a sorting alley, work in a branding pen with all the associated noise and confusion, check cows during calving season while up to their knees in snow or freezing slush and be sane enough that I can throw a calf in front of me, with an angry momma right on our heels and get us both safely home to dry out. I promise you that they don't happen by accident and very few come from random breeding programs.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Do they have another type of halter class where you show off the conformation of good working horses? Are there a lot of places that still use horses to do actual work? I know my cousins have a large ranch and use horses to work their cattle, but they also use 4-wheelers.

I understand, wr - your horses are actually being used for a very specific purpose, and working cattle is what quarter horses were originally meant to do, and it's rotten that you can't even find a very good good old-fashioned quarter horse stallion anymore.

When you talk about quarter horses you're talking about REAL quarter horses. When I talk about quarter horses I don't even know what the heck I'm talking about LOL. Honestly - quarter horse, arab, thoroughbred . . . . at this point the only thing I know is a quarter horse has a big butt and they're called quarter horses because they can sprint a quarter of a mile really fast. I couldn't tell one breed of horse from another, honestly.

If a horse wins in halter then people want to breed their mares to the sire right?


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

Working horses are always prettier to me than halter or even dressage horses. Sorry but I LIKE a rough tough animal that can work all day long and still walk around the yard with a 2 year old kid bouncing on the saddle in the evening after dinner. 

I think that halter class STARTED as a way to show horses for their correct conformation. But it's slid into the "fashion show" of what's popular, despite it being traits that make the horses unsound for their original purpose. 

They could easily change to judging horses on proper conformation for a good strong working animal. The judges choose not to reward proper horse structure. I blame the judges more than the show-ers, although I also blame those that breed and show the horses according to trends rather than good traits.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

ffarmergirl, enjoy your horse everyday. I'm a quarter horse owner and long ago learned that this forum is not the place to gain good information about quarter horses. There are no perfect horses (well maybe one but I already own her, lol) in any breed or discipline though, some would like to think theirs are. Your mares young and will likely change in many ways in the future. Just enjoy her and don't get caught up in internet opinions based on a couple of pics. by people who may not have ridden a horse in a couple of decades, if ever. Subscribe to the AQHA journal and you will find good conformation articles almost monthly about the different types and uses of quarter horses. 

That's my two cents worth anyway.

Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

levi1739 said:


> ffarmergirl, enjoy your horse everyday. I'm a quarter horse owner and long ago learned that this forum is not the place to gain good information about quarter horses. There are no perfect horses (well maybe one but I already own her, lol) in any breed or discipline though, some would like to think theirs are. Your mares young and will likely change in many ways in the future. Just enjoy her and don't get caught up in internet opinions based on a couple of pics. by people who may not have ridden a horse in a couple of decades, if ever. Subscribe to the AQHA journal and you will find good conformation articles almost monthly about the different types and uses of quarter horses.
> 
> That's my two cents worth anyway.
> 
> ...


Do you really think that allowing HYPP to continue for decades was a good thing? How about actually breeding for small feet knowing it can set a horse up for Navicular syndrome? Weanling/yearling longe line futurities? Two year old of any discipline futurities? Good things or not?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

levi1739 said:


> ffarmergirl, enjoy your horse everyday. I'm a quarter horse owner and long ago learned that this forum is not the place to gain good information about quarter horses. There are no perfect horses (well maybe one but I already own her, lol) in any breed or discipline though, some would like to think theirs are. Your mares young and will likely change in many ways in the future. Just enjoy her and don't get caught up in internet opinions based on a couple of pics. by people who may not have ridden a horse in a couple of decades, if ever. Subscribe to the AQHA journal and you will find good conformation articles almost monthly about the different types and uses of quarter horses.
> 
> That's my two cents worth anyway.
> 
> ...



Seems to me this would be like going to the Coke website to find out whether Coke is better than Pepsi.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Seems to me this would be like going to the Coke website to find out whether Coke is better than Pepsi.


That's true. The one thing that AQHA is good at is self promotion, policing themselves not so much.

It's as ridiculous as someone watching a few videos and calling themselves a trainer.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

fffarmergirl said:


> Do they have another type of halter class where you show off the conformation of good working horses? Are there a lot of places that still use horses to do actual work? I know my cousins have a large ranch and use horses to work their cattle, but they also use 4-wheelers.
> 
> I understand, wr - your horses are actually being used for a very specific purpose, and working cattle is what quarter horses were originally meant to do, and it's rotten that you can't even find a very good good old-fashioned quarter horse stallion anymore.
> 
> ...


They have a registry for foundation quarter horses which has it's own shows, rules, etc... IF I was even thinking about showing these days, that's the route I'd go. 

http://nfqha.com/index_files/page2.htm


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I think you have to keep in mind that horses are a hobby for many people, but a serious business for others. It can not only be serious business, but a very cut throat business. The judges are trainers, breeders and owners. These are the people that know the breed the best, whatever that breed is. However, the judges from last weekend are the exhibitors this week end, and the judges this week are showing under the people they judged last week. This happens almost every week. When you are showing regularly, you know the horses, trainers, and owners. You know who's horse is working well, who will not take a horse into the ring unless it will work very well, which horses are winning and it all plays into who wins, especially in classes that are largely the opinion of the judge. 
While showing can be fun, and it is generally necessary if you are breeding, it is an expensive way to to get one persons opinion of your horse, an opinion that may or may not be unbiased.

The breed registries, Quarter Horse, Arabian, Paint, whatever breed, are heavily supported by the large breeders and owners. These owners have great influence on any decisions made by the registry they are involved in. And in the end it all goes back to money.

You asked about the "prancing". If you mean the horses moving around instead of standing quietly in a halter class, this is often done because it is harder to see conformation faults when the horse is in motion.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Teej said:


> They have a registry for foundation quarter horses which has it's own shows, rules, etc... IF I was even thinking about showing these days, that's the route I'd go.
> 
> http://nfqha.com/index_files/page2.htm


Are you a member Teej? This sounds like a wonderful organization. I glanced through the show rules and there is no "glamour" allowed. No silver, no glitter, right down to no clipped ears or hoof polish. Just horses that look and move like real horses. 

That just made my day, thank you.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Seems to me this would be like going to the Coke website to find out whether Coke is better than Pepsi.


That sounds logical Lisa but maybe not pertinent to the discussion of horses. If the purpose is to find out whether Coke is better than Pepsi I myself would consult a stock broker. 

Would you look for information about German Shepard dogs in publications about Fox Terriers? I myself wouldn't but maybe I'm in the minority.


Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

levi1739 said:


> That sounds logical Lisa but maybe not pertinent to the discussion of horses. If the purpose is to find out whether Coke is better than Pepsi I myself would consult a stock broker.
> 
> Would you look for information about German Shepard dogs in publications about Fox Terriers? I myself wouldn't but maybe I'm in the minority.
> 
> ...


It's an analogy. 
If I wanted to find out about German Shepard dogs, I wouldn't consult a publication; I'd talk to the very people who have had them and used them for many years and knew what the breed was intended for and how it had evolved-- for better or worse. People who have dealt first hand with the problems that might have cropped up because of the direction the breed had taken and people who actually used them for the purpose for which the breed was intended and knew the lines that were still good for that purpose and were more problem-free.

Not any organization or publication that has venal obligations and/or self-interest at heart like the AQHA does. 
If I wanted a good quarter horse, I'd ask people like Irish Pixie or WR, SFM, etc. 
They've been doing this a very long time, and their family before them has and they don't have the stars in their eyes that many do. 
They can see clearly what the breed is, used to be, and where it's heading. I don't give a flip if any of them don't ride presently because of health reasons, etc (not that they don't)....because they've pretty much FORGOTTEN more about quarter horses and horses in general than anyone who who's gotten a quickie education from TV trainers can hope to aspire to.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> Are you a member Teej? This sounds like a wonderful organization. I glanced through the show rules and there is no "glamour" allowed. No silver, no glitter, right down to no clipped ears or hoof polish. Just horses that look and move like real horses.
> 
> That just made my day, thank you.


I'm not a member but I spent probably an hour talking to them at their booth at a horse fair one time and their goals REALLY impressed me. I tried to talk them into allowing paints from quarter horse lines but it was a no go. If they had, I'da been on it. I think they're fairly popular now because a lot of the quarter horses on allbreed pedigree will now list their foundation percentage in their descriptions.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

levi1739, the AQHA does provide good information but it is also mixed in with a lot of self promotion and in my opinion, if you don't know conformation and you're still going to end up looking at pretty pictures of elite horses. Conformation and breed standard are all included within all the other information provided but again, it's tough to learn horsemanship from a single website or a book. 

If your snippy comment about having not been on a horse in a decade is directed at me, I have no idea where you gained your information but you might want to offer up the facts you base your insult upon or retract your statement.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

wr, the last few months the journal has been doing detailed articles on conformation of the limbs and the joints, angles, bone length and bone density which I have found very informative. They have also been doing a series on ranch breeders and how they start and seperate the colts for future use etc. There are always good articles about past and present horse people and their history. One column that I enjoy seeing is the 50 year breeders awards. Another is the section dedicated to qh racing and it's history and practices. It's all very interesting and useful information presented by professional horsemen that do know a lot about horses.

On another note, why do you think my remarks were directed towards you?


Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Well, the AQHA is dead wrong about their "ideal" hind leg conformation. They've been perpetuating their "ideal" for decades and it has spilled over to Paints, Apps, and other American breeds.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

If your nasty comment wasn't directed at wr, just who was it directed at, Jack?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I'm not sure why or how someone has to ride a horse every day to know conformation anyhow. I have a friend who lost her ranch and most of her horses in a divorce and hasn't ridden much at all since but she can certainly still identify good and bad conformation with no problem at all.

Jack, I didn't think you were addressing me but I kinda gave you the option of reviewing your comment, which could be considered insulting another member and amending. You've been around long enough to know that insulting other members earns infractions.


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

I agree that whether someone currently rides or not has no bearing on whether they know horses or conformation. 

By that criteria, the very best most experienced horse-people could be discounted simply because they physically cannot ride, either from injury or age. And that could eliminate some of the most knowledgeable people for no good reason at all. You don't lose knowledge just because you lose your ability or opportunity to ride the horses.


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## Fetherhd (Aug 16, 2012)

SORRY fffarmergirl...kind of crazy busy this time of year...My gals get about 1/4 cup of cider vinegar in there grain ration once a day...I saw a difference in coat in just a couple of weeks and saw real improvement in their hooves as they grew out. As with anything introduce this slowly


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## Fetherhd (Aug 16, 2012)

wr said:


> You'd think that after the whole Impressive fiasco, they AQHA would look at things differently.
> 
> I went looking a few years ago for a new project and all I wanted was another old style (built like a bulldog) QH. Apparently, my request was unreasonable because I covered a lot of country in Alberta, Saskatchewan and BC. Even after breeders assured me that they had exactly what I was looking for, all I found was spindly legs, teeny little feet, narrow chests, long backs and post legs. They all had pretty little heads but from the ears back, not so much.


 hehehe I HAVE what you were looking for...Big gal with Hancock on both sides. Big feet, thick bones, almost 16 hands, wide like a tank...NOT the pretteist horse on the block by far...but she looks like she could yank a cow down without even trying. Comes from two working ranch horses. I have been told that I will have to watch it while training her as the Joe Hancock line has been known for being "broncy" Only been on her a couple of time (having a Heck of a time finding a saddle wide enough to handle her shoulders) but she has been willing and sweet each time. Gonna spend more time on her this summer...hope this stays true...that is a LONG way to fall!!!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Fetherhd, I prefer Hancock or Skipper W bloodlines and actually have one of each at the moment. 

The reason for my three province search was simply to find younger versions of what I have. The old guy that bred the Hancock mare had retired so most of my adventure involved chasing down offspring of mares bred exactly like her and the rest of the adventure was looking for Skipper W lines that weren't muddled with funky new running bloodlines.


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## Fetherhd (Aug 16, 2012)

wr said:


> Fetherhd, I prefer Hancock or Skipper W bloodlines and actually have one of each at the moment.
> 
> The reason for my three province search was simply to find younger versions of what I have. The old guy that bred the Hancock mare had retired so most of my adventure involved chasing down offspring of mares bred exactly like her and the rest of the adventure was looking for Skipper W lines that weren't muddled with funky new running bloodlines.


I am glad that there are people out there who prefer the old "bulldog" working type foundation quarter horse. I look at what is being selectively bred now a days and just shake my head. I would prefer a more "common" looking horse that stays sound to a "pretty" refined one that is questionable any day.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

The horse in my Avatar is named "Girlie". Girlie is a double bred Impressive mare on the bottom, and goes back to Painted Robin on the top. She tested negative for HYPP. Good feet, bone and a real working girl, she jumps and was shown in both western and english events. Her new owner rides her foxhunting.

I had her leased out to a hunter/jumper stable as a beginner mount, she did that for two years going 2'9" over fences.

She began her career as a halter horse and won a boatload of blues, then was broke to ride and trail ridden for a year, after that she went western pleasure and was sold to a girl who rode hunters where she ended up being quite successful.

Her registered name is Wishful Impressions. She is a registered crop out Paint. lol..
looks just like a quarter horse, the only "spot" she had was on the inside of one leg.
She was a big girl too, at 16 hands and weighed around 1300 lbs *after I put her on a diet. Nice mare, good disposition and very good attitude. 

There are a lot of good using horses out there that have Impressive breeding, you just have to find people who breed for useable horses and not the halter ring. Also get proof of HYPP negativity. Most never hear about horses like Girlie, they only hear about the ones that have problems. 







Here is her Pedigree:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ind...IMPRESSIONS&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=


You have to work with what you have in the hand and if you want to show your filly in halter, you can teach her to stand square and also work on your showmanship. Showmanship is rather fun and it really doesn't matter what the horse looks like, it matters how well you have trained the horse and how well YOU show the horse. You can find out more about what is required for showmanship here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_showmanship

this gives a pretty good over view of what is required with some pics. You can obtain more information either through the AQHA, or regional shows as your local associations. 

Whatever you do, have fun and be safe.


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

Sorry to say I haven't read every post in this thread, but it's an interesting discussion for sure. There's always so much to learn, and so many different points of view to consider. 

Ona looks great! I wouldn't worry too much about her conformation, I think she will be great for what you are looking for. Yes, most babies have tiny feet and they will get bigger as she matures.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I'd say that, since you want a general riding horse, probably for trails, she will be fine even with some limitations of conformation. She's pretty, seems to have a decent mind, will learn a ton from showing in halter and ought to be fun for you. She may not be suitable for hard ranch work, may not hold up for reining training (which is really hard on them), or able to jump big jumps, etc, but she might be just fine for you and what you are looking for.

I had a little QH gelding many years ago. He was 14'3", rather stubby legged, cute and horribly crooked front legs. The inside of his front hooves was over an inch longer than the outside, he traveled with them making circles around. However, I had him for several years, he was never lame, he worked pretty hard with me (trails, low level jumping, English riding, Western, I rode for hours most days) and he was one of the best horses I ever owned because of his mind and his heart. He would do anything for me or anyone I put on him. He was just a great little horse. It's not all conformation, though for specific tasks, you will have a much better chance of being able to do them with a horse that is bred right for it. Please don't think you can't ride or work your girl regularly if she grows up with less than perfect conformation. She should be fine for more general riding and a lot of fun.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I don't think anybody has ever said Ona won't make a decent pleasure horse but the comments about conformation lead back to deleted thread and some rather unique criteria Ona's owner had for how her mentor should select clients for her boarding facility.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Yes. Ignorant misinformed comments that I'm sorry I made. Let's not repeat them!


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