# It Began As A Tool To Save Wild Elk. A Century Later, Feeding Threatens Iconic Herds.



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

> HOBACK JUNCTION, Wyo. — It was shortly after 9 a.m. and just under zero degrees, and the elk were hungry. A thousand or so of them huddled together in a snowy field, watching as two towering horses trudged forth pulling a sleigh piled with two tons of hay.
> 
> Over the next 90 minutes, a two-man crew from the Wyoming Game and Fish Department tossed clumps of grass and alfalfa to the ground, doing what their agency and others across the nation exhort the public not to do: They fed the wildlife.
> 
> ...


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## Big_Al (Dec 21, 2011)

Just the same as keeping people dependent on the government.
That plan started in 1965. LBJ’s Great Society. 
And we can see the results today.


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## altair (Jul 23, 2011)

This is why I don't even feed birds. They could do a winter of hard culls or relocation.

The state/area should look into creating corridors or highway tunnels to help link habitat, if possible.

"...and it’s about people at the end of the day.” 

It should be about the elk, that's the problem with their thinking in my opinion.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

In this day and age wildlife are livestock with no fences. The Elk are a asset to the state that brings in hunters and tourists, both of which spend millions of dollars on the local economy. There is no wilderness large enough to sustain them. Highways and fences have put an end to that. Wildlife can't read signs, and won't stay in "their" area. Should we fence them in, or fence humans out? So, until someone invents a magic wand, the best way to manage Elk and Deer who live close to humans is to feed them.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Big_Al said:


> Just the same as keeping people dependent on the government.
> That plan started in 1965. LBJ’s Great Society.
> And we can see the results today.


If there is an overabundance of elk that exceeds the environmental capacity to carry them, the merciful thing is to thin the herd down by allowing them to be taken by hunters that will utilize the meat, hides, shoulder mounts, etc. 

Even if it means quadrupling the number of permits issued and extending the season long enough to facilitate all tags being filled.

The revenue generated by issuing permits would turn a profit, rather than the quagmire of feeding costs.

Once the herd is in balance with the environment, adjust the tags/season accordingly.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

altair said:


> The state/area should look into creating corridors or highway tunnels to help link habitat, if possible


So, who should give up their private property? Which cities, small towns, and rural homes should be bulldozed? Who should be chosen to play god? People are here to stay, and the choice is the same as when the program was started. We can feed the wildlife, or we can let them die of starvation then pat ourselves on the back for letting nature take it's course.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

muleskinner2 said:


> So, who should give up their private property? Which cities, small towns, and rural homes should be bulldozed? Who should be chosen to play god? People are here to stay, and the choice is the same as when the program was started. We can feed the wildlife, or we can let them die of starvation then pat ourselves on the back for letting nature take it's course.


Agree 100% except we should hunt them until the natural balance is struck once again.

The elk don't suffer starvation, and neither do the humans.

To say nothing of avoiding waiting for this very real potential for disaster to occur.



> But what began as a lifeline is increasingly viewed as a potential path to a ghastly elk die-off throughout the famed Yellowstone ecosystem. That is because the feed grounds concentrate elk in densities that amplify various illnesses. The looming concern is that they could become superspreader sites for chronic wasting disease, or CWD, an always-fatal neurological disorder that causes stumbling, weight loss and spongelike brain lesions in deer, elk and moose.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

I am currently feeding a couple hundred white tails. I hunt. My four kids hunt. I maintain piles of habitat. I will not let more than necessary starve in what has been one of the most brutal, “climate changey“ winters in history up here.

The farmers around me clear every tree and twig. Then they ask me if they can hunt on my land? Haha. Anyhow, I’m doing my part to try and maintain some seed stock for the future. Maybe the neighbors will thank me later?

Too much snow. Cold. Zero feed for them. Looking forward to the melt. Someday it will melt?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Tom Horn said:


> Agree 100% except we should hunt them until the natural balance is struck once again.
> 
> The elk don't suffer starvation, and neither do the humans.
> 
> To say nothing of avoiding waiting for this very real potential for disaster to occur.


I agree, the only place where Elk are over populated is in parks, where hunting isn't allowed. When these places become over crowed, the Elk move out into farm land, and back yards looking for food. The bug loving tree huggers want to have their cake and let the rest of us starve.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

muleskinner2 said:


> I agree, the only place where Elk are over populated is in parks, where hunting isn't allowed. When these places become over crowed, the Elk move out into farm land, and back yards looking for food. The bug loving tree huggers want to have their cake and let the rest of us starve.


No cake... Fantasy.

In their Walt Disney anthropomorphic fog, they think they are helping by believing that animals are reasoning human beings.

They truly couldn't care less about animals, or anything at all for that matter. 

They just want to have their emotions tickled without having to get off their butts and investing a little actual effort.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Wyoming elk and the situation with the park is not as simple as just shoot them. The park has no problem supporting the number of elk it has. The problem is that they come out of the park for winter as the have always done. Ranches and homes have moved into their winter habitat and don't want them eating their expensive landscaping and eating their stocks winter forage.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Tom Horn said:


> No cake... Fantasy.
> 
> In their Walt Disney anthropomorphic fog, they think they are helping by believing that animals are reasoning human beings.
> 
> ...


All of that would be just a little too much like work. As apposed to standing around holding signs, and demanding someone else do all of the work.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Wyoming elk and the situation with the park is not as simple as just shoot them. The park has no problem supporting the number of elk it has. The problem is that they come out of the park for winter as the have always done. Ranches and homes have moved into their winter habitat and don't want them eating their expensive landscaping and eating their stocks winter forage.


Exactly, so unless you can find a way to manage the people, you must manage the Elk. It really is just that simple. If the park could actually support them, they wouldn't be leaving the park to look for food.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

muleskinner2 said:


> All of that would be just a little too much like work. As apposed to standing around holding signs, and demanding someone else do all of the work.


Exactly

Liberals... All talk, no action.


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## Wyobuckaroo (Dec 30, 2011)

If there is an overabundance of elk that exceeds the environmental capacity to carry them, the merciful thing is to thin the herd down by allowing them to be taken by hunters that will utilize the meat, hides, shoulder mounts, etc.

Even if it means quadrupling the number of permits issued and extending the season long enough to facilitate all tags being filled.

The revenue generated by issuing permits would turn a profit, rather than the quagmire of feeding costs.

Once the herd is in balance with the environment, adjust the tags/season accordingly. 
000 000
Yes.. This is part of a sound, scientific solution... Depending on conditions year to year, this could take several to 10 years or more to manage a balance to the situation.. 

Problem is..... Once the situation is balanced, then enters politics... A game commission that has brought in revinue for a time, slows permit issues and slows the money train and people squawk... Enter politicians who also have enjoyed the money train.. And things go to hell quickly, and the now managed animal populations will suffer.. 

That is IF and only IF you can get politics and burocuracy to sign on way back on day one of the management plan.. 

Wildlife Biology 101 ...ever so many years ago...


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> Exactly, so unless you can find a way to manage the people, you must manage the Elk. It really is just that simple. If the park could actually support them, they wouldn't be leaving the park to look for food.


Yes, all true. The park has never been their year round home. That means if we in Wyoming want a healthy elk population in the Park, then we must feed them in the winter because most are not willing to have them living on their property in the winter.


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

Substitute "food stamp recipients" for "elk" and you can see a strong analogy.

The demand for free food will always increase to the point where the demand exceeds the supply.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Yes, all true. The park has never been their year round home. That means if we in Wyoming want a healthy elk population in the Park, then we must feed them in the winter because most are not willing to have them living on their property in the winter.


Right, so feed the Elk. And tell the bug loving tree huggers to pound sand.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

NRA_guy said:


> Substitute "food stamp recipients" for "elk" and you can see a strong analogy.
> 
> The demand for free food will always increase to the point where the demand exceeds the supply.


So, the difference is Elk are good to eat. Food stamp recipients, not so much. The Elk generate millions for the local economy, food stamp recipients, again not so much. Feeding a herd of Elk is no different than feeding a herd of cattle. If the benefit out weighs the cost, it's worth the cost.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> So, the difference is Elk are good to eat. Food stamp recipients, not so much. The Elk generate millions for the local economy, food stamp recipients, again not so much. Feeding a herd of Elk is no different than feeding a herd of cattle. If the benefit out weighs the cost, it's worth the cost.


Perfect.

Those herds of elk bring in lots of money to Wyoming.


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## altair (Jul 23, 2011)

muleskinner2 said:


> So, who should give up their private property? Which cities, small towns, and rural homes should be bulldozed? Who should be chosen to play god? People are here to stay, and the choice is the same as when the program was started. We can feed the wildlife, or we can let them die of starvation then pat ourselves on the back for letting nature take it's course.


Are they that populated in that area of Wyoming? I have no idea, ergo the 'if possible' I tacked on. Who knows, they could incentivize making property wildlife habitat instead of mowed squares.

I just hate to see wildlife reduced to live in zoos and islands. Either way it was created by people. The feeding should taper and end and let the culling begin-- or relocation, but the former would bring rather than cost revenue.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

altair said:


> let the culling begin-


By culling do you mean letting them die of starvation, within sight of the highway, in sub zero temps? Whats wrong with just feeding them? We grow plenty of hay, and our government both state and federal waste money on a lot of less worth while things.

They bring in millions of dollars to the local economy, culling them would benefit nobody. Not the Elk, not the local businesses, nobody. The only thing it would do, is allow a few dim wits to feel better about themselves, for letting nature take it's course.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

altair said:


> I have no idea,


I agree.


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## altair (Jul 23, 2011)

No, I'm kinder than that. Sell extra tags, lotteries, whatever, for hunters to bag more. Keep whatever population's sustainable, maybe exclude a few fewer Walmarts from being built. By the sounds from the price of hay, keep it for the farms who could use it most.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Here's to all you Bambi anthropomorphs, that think over-winter feeding of elk is cost effective and helps, rather than harms in the prevention of disease proliferation.



> *True Costs of Feeding Elk*
> 
> Feedgrounds boost elk numbers but at extraordinarily high costs. The state of Wyoming, for example, spends more than $2 million annually to feed elk and to study and manage feedground disease. This typically produces an annual deficit above revenues derived from the sale of licenses to hunt elk west of the Continental Divide, where the state’s feedgrounds are located (Smith 2001).
> 
> ...


Winter feeding is a governmental program, and as anyone with half a brain realizes, once the government starts a program it is the closest thing to eternal life we see while on earth, due to the fact that too many bureaucrats are profiting from it.

Bureaucrats will continue to "Help" the elk until they are all disease infested and dead from preventable causes. Diseases that could be avoided through the implementation of actual wise wildlife management practices.


@muleskinner2 @NRA_guy @Wyobuckaroo @farmerDale @altair @Big_Al


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

How about a different "solution"?

The government could gradually reduce the amount of food it is providing. Over the next 5 to 10 years the number of elk would have gone down and the feeding could be stopped (or continued at some minimal level).


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Tom Horn said:


> Here's to all you Bambi anthropomorphs, that think over-winter feeding of elk is cost effective and helps, rather than harms in the prevention of disease proliferation.
> 
> 
> Winter feeding is a governmental program, and as anyone with half a brain realizes, once the government starts a program it is the closest thing to eternal life we see while on earth, due to the fact that too many bureaucrats are profiting from it.
> ...


By this same logic we should stop providing food stamps and welfare. Thin out the cities, to better manage the population.


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## Wyobuckaroo (Dec 30, 2011)

> Here's to all you Bambi anthropomorphs, that think over-winter feeding of elk is cost effective and helps, rather than harms in the prevention of disease proliferation.
> 
> 
> Winter feeding is a governmental program, and as anyone with half a brain realizes, once the government starts a program it is the closest thing to eternal life we see while on earth, due to the fact that too many bureaucrats are profiting from it.
> ...


By this same logic we should stop providing food stamps and welfare. Thin out the cities, to better manage the population. 
^^^ ^^^
This smacks of the same logic that is said to come from soy latte, tofu, fueled Starbucks ...spit... meeting that equate animals on the same level as humans and the same rules apply.... NOT... Wildlife Management science is its own field... Like comparing apples with oranges. . Or is this an attempt to be a troll (?) I believe that is the internet word...


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

NRA_guy said:


> How about a different "solution"?
> 
> The government could gradually reduce the amount of food it is providing. Over the next 5 to 10 years the number of elk would have gone down and the feeding could be stopped (or continued at some minimal level).


I must disagree.

At this point the elk are conditioned to be fed, if they are not, chances are they will starve, a cruel fate.

Better to thin the herd by increasing bull/cow tag allotments, a quick bullet for the elk, several hundred pounds of meat for the hunter and hunting revenue for the state.


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

As I said before, demand for free, easily accessible food (as well as clothing, shelter, medical needs, cell phones, etc.) will always increase to exceed the supply.

Years ago, we had some birds in our back yard. Oh! They were SOOOO cute. So I bought a bird feeder and a shepherd's crook to hang it on and a bag of sunflower seeds.

The birds loved it. Soon we had more birds, and I bought anothter bird feeder and more seeds. We got more birds.

Soon I had 4 bird feeders, 2 shepherd's crooks and I was buying 20 lbs of sunflower seeds a week at about $17.00 a bag.

The squirrels found the seeds and came to eat sunflower seeds. The squirrels had babies and they came to eat.

Chipmunks did likewise.

I bought an electric fence charger (about $100.00) and wired it to the bird feeders to stop the squirrels from climbing up the shepherd's crooks and filling up on seeds. It didn't work.

Soon some raccoons discovered the seeds and started coming in the night. My wife thought they were cute; so she started feeding them dog food ($10.00 a bag).

More raccoons came and the existing raccoons had babies---and they were SOOOO cute.

Oops, were were going on a vacation and those poor darlings would starve; so I bought a $150.00 automatic deer feeder and set it up to feed the raccoons every night.

Well, they are smart and they started climbing up the legs of the deer feeder and raking out the dog food every night. So I bought a solar charged electric fence charger and rigged it to shock the raccoons if the climbed up the feeder's leg. It didn't work.

Oh, and a neighbor's malnourished dog started coming by and my wife started feeding the "poor hungry dog" every day.

Oh, and 2 cats came up in the back yard and we adopted them. I am buying about $20.00 worth of canned cat food every week.

I am now buying lots of sunflower seeds, cat food, and dog food every trip to Walmart.

And I want to go on a vacation, but those poor animals would starve to death same as the elk in Wyoming.

See how that works?


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

NRA_guy said:


> And I want to go on a vacation, but those poor animals would starve to death same as the elk in Wyoming.
> 
> See how that works?


I'm a conservative, I work and pay taxes to support those who do neither.

That goes for tweety birds, squirrels, and raccoons too.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Preserving Wyoming's Elk Feed Grounds; Chapter two | Wyoming Hunting News


Wyoming’s elk feed ground program continues to be controversial! The outfitting industry has drawn a red line in the sand when it comes to protecting and requiring the Game & Fish to maintain their essential winter feeding program. Western Wyoming is unique in that we have almost limitless elk...




www.huntwyo.com




The Wyoming Legislature saw the value of preserving our state’s elk herds and recently passed legislation which assist in preserving the state run feed grounds. The Wyoming outfitting industry owes a huge ‘Thank You’ to our elected representatives, especially Representative Albert Sommers who spear headed this legislation. Resident sportsmen rely heavily on the hunting opportunity provided by our elk herds. In Wyoming, 23% of all elk hunting units relied on feed grounds to provide winter habitat to these elk herds. In 2021 these hunt units provided 93,586 days of elk hunting opportunity to resident and non-resident sportsmen.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Wyoming Elk Feed Grounds: need your help | Wyoming Hunting News


Winter feeding of wildlife is a hot button issue and often pits wildlife lovers, hunters and conservationists against one other. Elk are fed each winter by the Wyoming Game & Fish Department and the National Elk Refuge. As townships and ranchers established themselves out west, elk were left...




www.huntwyo.com





"If elk feed grounds were no longer in operation, the impact would be just as detrimental to other species of wildlife as well. The next to suffer would be mule deer. Western Wyoming has almost limitless amounts of summer and fall range for elk but extremely limited winter habitat. If the elk were no longer fed, they would move into these small winter ranges that are critical to the survival of mule deer. It’s a fore gone conclusion that if Wyoming stops feeding elk, it will lead to devastating impacts on already struggling deer populations. "

"If Wyoming were to quit feeding these elk, hunting opportunity in western Wyoming would be drastically reduced or completely disappear. While this is extremely important to the outfitting community, it has a colossal impact on Wyoming residents and general public hunters as well. The hunt areas that contain these elk herds are almost exclusively on public land. "


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