# What are the requirements for organic manure?



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

There is a company marketing organic, composted cattle manure. I can't say for sure, but I think they get their manure from a large commercial dairy.

What are the requirements on manure? Must all the cows' feed be organic?


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...9ba121f1&mc=true&node=se7.3.205_1203&rgn=div8
Standard(rule) 205.203 allows any manure to be used in organic operations..... There are specific regulations on the timing of its application as raw manure, or required composting methods to be used .

In an ongoing farming or production operation, the manure usage must be a part of an overall plan submitted by the farmer/operator and approved by the official certifier. This plan would include soil-building techniques and crop rotation methods along with manure and liming or mineral applications. This would likely include a plan for testing of the manure to be used for prohibited substances and/or heavy materials or other contaminants.

Here is another reference which includes more detailed discussion on using manures in an organic operation..... http://articles.extension.org/pages/18628/managing-manure-fertilizers-in-organic-systems

Note: in the USDA ORGANIC National Organic Program, the official certifier has the last word with the farmer as to the application of each rule as the plan is developed by the farmer/operator. I am not an official certifier, so my thoughts are obviously my own opinions and the best information I can find. But to answer the specific question, must all cows' feed be organic?--my opinion, based on what I see is: No. At least not for the purpose of using the manure....

geo


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Interesting.

So, at least in theory, I could market composted cow manure from a commercial dairy as Organic manure, even if the manure contains tiny pieces of GMO corn, GMO soybean meal, GMO cotton seed meal, GMO sugar beet pulp and the cows injected with antibiotics?

Is this a case where we need more rules, regulation and oversight from the government?


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Yes, in theory, and in actuality, you could market composted cow manure as organic, as I can't find any specific reference where the NOP controls the use of the word "organic" in regards to manures. There are some who do---Hapi-Gro, Moo-Nure, who definitely call their product organic, and Black Kow, who intimate that it is organic, certainly composted.....

Of course I would deny ever giving you the direct advice to do so, but I would advise you to consult with your lawyer.........

The NOP allows manures from feedlots, and GMO fed animals. There may be some organic advocates who would want to be pristine-pure and disallow that sort of use, but they may not be aware that plants don't/can't eat genes; rather they eat the fertilizers that occur when soil microorganisms eat the plant materials which contain the genes--then they die and decompose into those fertilizers--the genes themselves, being amino acids and protein chains would have been decomposed and converted, too.

geo


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## i8paintchips (Feb 27, 2016)

I'm suddenly convinced the only way to have truly organic manure is if I make it myself. Just me, no other animals involved.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

i8paintchips said:


> I'm suddenly convinced the only way to have truly organic manure is if I make it myself. Just me, no other animals involved.


That'll work, IF........
You take any medications? You drink any artificial sweeteners? Eat anything that isn't organic? Smoke?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

So, to grow organic vegetables, I can use manure that is from a thousand cattle on a totally GMO diet (GMO corn, GMO soybean, GMO alfalfa), given antibiotics, soap from the rinse water, but I cannot use the pure elements N, P, K and a bit of Su?

Then there is the weed seed issue. Organic vegetables should cost more.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

haypoint said:


> So, to grow organic vegetables, I can use manure that is from a thousand cattle on a totally GMO diet (GMO corn, GMO soybean, GMO alfalfa), given antibiotics, soap from the rinse water, but I cannot use the pure elements N, P, K and a bit of Su?
> 
> Then there is the weed seed issue. Organic vegetables should cost more.


If you want to _label and sell_ your vegetables as organic anywhere in the USA, you'll need to follow the rules and guidelines of the National Organic Program.

You can put whatever you want to on your own plate. It's your garden.

Here is the complete listing of the rules of the NOP for you to pore over as you see fit. That way you can find, first hand, the answers to the questions you have. I think as this forum goes foreward, we'll find people of all degrees along the philosophical lines of thinking on the organic isssue. No doubt there will be absolute purists to those just wanting to try more and more organic methods in their own situations. There may even be a few skeptics.....I'm not here to argue, but to provide, as valid information and knowlege as I can find.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...c=true&node=pt7.3.205&rgn=div5#se7.3.205_1102

Respectfully,

geo


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

There's a complete difference between selling "Certified Organic" manure, and selling organic fertilizer that is manure. Manure is organic material, and that could be how the company is wording it.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

MDKatie said:


> There's a complete difference between selling "Certified Organic" manure, and selling organic fertilizer that is manure. Manure is organic material, and that could be how the company is wording it.


Sounds like cattle manure from any source, composted, can be Certified Organic. But I understand how marketing organic manure and Certified Organic manure might be viewed as the same to most consumers.

Like a Certified organic dairy can buy commercial cows from a factory farm 2/3 through her gestation and 90 days later, when she calves, market both her calf and her milk as Certified organic.

Many people want to make healthy choices, but few have the time to research every product. So, they rely on what sounds better. Certified organic manure sounds better than plain old manure. But, as we see here, with manure, it really isn't any more than taking the time and trouble of getting certified. 

The oats I grow could be certified organic. I could operate an organic dairy, bring in commercial cows, recently vaccinated and chemically wormed, just coming into their third trimester and feed oats. Their milk would be considered organic. That's the rule.

I can buy steers, raised on pasture, fattened at a huge 10,000 head feed lot, and marketed as "pasture raised", to the discerning consumer.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

haypoint said:


> The oats I grow could be certified organic. I could operate an organic dairy, bring in commercial cows, recently vaccinated and chemically wormed, just coming into their third trimester and feed oats. Their milk would be considered organic. That's the rule.


There's a 3 year transition period for organic crop ground, unless you can swear that you haven't used any of the prohibited substances on that ground (and sign an affadavit). 

And from this link, it looks like the cows would need to transition for a year before you can market their milk as certified organic. 




haypoint said:


> I can buy steers, raised on pasture, fattened at a huge 10,000 head feed lot, and marketed as "pasture raised", to the discerning consumer.


Yep. There's no regulation on "pasture raised". As a consumer, if you want to know your beef lived it's whole life on pasture, you've got to talk to the farmer.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

As far as I know, there is not a national certification process that must be complied with in order to officially label a fertilizer material as being "organic."

Even sewage sludge, which is not allowed by the USDA to be used in organic crop production, can be legally labled "organic."


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Cabin Fever said:


> As far as I know, there is not a national certification process that must be complied with in order to officially label a fertilizer material as being "organic."
> 
> Even sewage sludge, which is not allowed by the USDA to be used in organic crop production, can be legally labled "organic."


This is marketed as suitable for organic gardens.
http://www.dairydoo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/ProVeg301FRONT.png

Apparently they are adding a variety of minerals.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

haypoint said:


> This is marketed as suitable for organic gardens.
> http://www.dairydoo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/ProVeg301FRONT.png
> 
> Apparently they are adding a variety of minerals.


Yes, but the label does not say, "Suitable for use in Certified Organic food production."


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Cabin Fever said:


> Yes, but the label does not say, "Suitable for use in Certified Organic food production."


"For use in ORGANIC gardens" is on each bag. Are you saying that composted cow manure, from cows fed GMO corn, GMO soybeans, GMO alfalfa, GMO cottonseed meal and GMO sugar beet pulp is not allowed on gardens producing Certified Organic vegetables? Do you know what rule that might be?

Be that as it may, most folks growing their own organic vegetable gardens are going to buy this product and feel that they are totally organic. For most folks "organic" and Certified Organic" are the same thing.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

haypoint said:


> "For use in ORGANIC gardens" is on each bag. Are you saying that composted cow manure, from cows fed GMO corn, GMO soybeans, GMO alfalfa, GMO cottonseed meal and GMO sugar beet pulp is not allowed on gardens producing Certified Organic vegetables? Do you know what rule that might be?
> 
> Be that as it may, most folks growing their own organic vegetable gardens are going to buy this product and feel that they are totally organic. For most folks "organic" and Certified Organic" are the same thing.


I guess my point was any fertilizer manufacturer can put the word "organic" or "for use on organic gardens" on its product. This labeling does not necessarily mean that said fertilizer is approved to be used on Certified Organic crops. In other words, there is no federal agency that certifies what is or is not an organic fertilizer.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Cabin Fever said:


> Yes, but the label does not say, "Suitable for use in Certified Organic food production."


The NOP does not take a stand or have any rules regarding the use or certifying of livestock manures in the program at all, except for timing and amount of application,and banned synthetic substances that may be included, To the NOP, manure is manure. Period. And well it should be. Plants don't eat manure, plants don't eat other plant cells, plants don't eat DNA or RNA, plants don't eat GMO's, plants don't eat chromosomes. They do eat the water soluble chemicals that are converted and left after the soil critters(bacteria, protozoa, and other digesters) have eaten all the above and have died off.......

You do not use manure to feed your plants----you feed the soil microbes. So, there is really no reason for concern, no reason to say "buyer beware"(except for the very minimal N content most of them have, and the cost per bag). Soil microbes have been eating DNA and plant cells since time began......whether they occur in the original organism, or whether they have been placed there by humans in lab coats. You could start a squash seed inside a GMO sugar beet, it would sprout and grow only so far as the material inside the seed lasted. But unless there was decomposition and conversion of the beet by microbes to make the water soluble chemicals, there would be no more growth. Yes, I know there are some who would be revolted at the thought of their squash plant even brushing against against GMO material, and if that is true, they will have to search long and hard for something that's guaranteed to satisify that need. It can't be found in the NOP, and you shouldn't look for it there.

A company could use the term, "Suitable for Certified Organic food production" if it wanted to but you would still be buying a bag of smart pills(again, N content, and price).....manure is manure. 

(However, if you were raising Certified Organic poultry and letting them free range and bill or peck through raw cow manure containing undigested conventional corn...you would have an issue for discussion with your certifier......)

geo


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## Rectifier (Jun 12, 2011)

In Canada, at least, these sorts of claims are not allowed. Organic is a protected term for certified products.

"All organic products, under the Canada Organic Regime, must be certified by a CFIA-accredited certification body. Therefore, the claim "certified organic" is considered misleading, as it implies to consumers that products not bearing this claim are not certified."

also,

"Terms such as "organically grown", "organically raised, "organically produced", or similar words, abbreviations of, symbols for and phonetic renderings of these words are considered the same as "organic" claims and must meet the same requirements."

So these un-certified manures could not be called "organic" or "suitable for organic use" in Canada. 

Note in particular that products such as picloram (Tordon 22k for example) can be ingested by cattle, persist in the manure, and cause crop damage to broadleaf crops. Certainly this manure could not be certified organic.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

As the rules currently stand, rabbit manure from your home raised, organically fed rabbits cannot be used on an organic garden. However, composted dairy manure from a dairy that feeds GMO alpha, GMO corn, GMO soybeans, GMO dried beet pulp and GMO cottonseed meal is allowed on an organic garden.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

haypoint said:


> As the rules currently stand, rabbit manure from your home raised, organically fed rabbits cannot be used on an organic garden. However, composted dairy manure from a dairy that feeds GMO alpha, GMO corn, GMO soybeans, GMO dried beet pulp and GMO cottonseed meal is allowed on an organic garden.


What rule would that be?

geo


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

geo in mi said:


> What rule would that be?
> 
> geo


The rule set in place to protect consumers from e coli found in fresh manure, requiring 180 days of proper composting.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Once again, the rules of the NOP regarding manures and composting are here for you to look at. http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...9ba121f1&mc=true&node=se7.3.205_1203&rgn=div8

I don't find any rule regarding any 180 day requirement on composting.

You can use raw rabbit manure based on the 90/120 day rules for raw manure application; or, you could use composted rabbit manure , if properly composted as according to the temperature and three day/fifteen day process of heat and stir composting methods.

OR, you could use "processed"(I assume bagged) rabbit manure as a soil building supplement---but it would not be raw....and it would have to be tested........


Processed manures are addressed in section Â§205.203(c)(3). Heat-treated, processed manure may be used as a supplement to a soil-building program, without a specific interval between application and harvest. Producers are expected to comply with all applicable requirements of the NOP regulation with respect to soil quality, including ensuring the soil is enhanced and maintained through proper stewardship.
According to the NOP's July 17, 2007 ruling, âprocessed manure products must be treated so that all portions of the product, without causing combustion, reach a minimum temperature of either 150Â°F (66Â°C) for at least one hour or 165Â°F (74Â°C), and are dried to a maximum moisture level of 12%; or an equivalent heating and drying process could be used." To achieve equivalency status, processed manure products can not contain more than 1x10Â³ (1,000) MPN (Most Probable Number) fecal coliform per gram of processed material sampled and not contain more than 3 MPN Salmonella per 4 gram sample of processed manure.

This quote has been taken from: http://articles.extension.org/pages/18628/managing-manure-fertilizers-in-organic-systems which, it too is also presented once again from Post #2 above.

Am I missing something that says 180 days?

geo


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I attended a food safety group that was discussing food standards, the 6 months requirement was mentioned and I remembered it. I guess heat treating to temperatures that kill pathogens would cover the food safety requirement without the 6 mo.wait. It could have been 120 days and I was wrong by stating 180 days. 

But, in reference to this discussion, you can't dump rabbit droppings onto/into your garden. I think we agree on that?


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## FarmerJoe (Nov 14, 2009)

I had a certified organic dairy. My certifier told me I could use manure from a large conventional farm. The thought is that whatever the cows ate (GMO's, pesticides, etc.) would be broken down by the time it went through their cows. That farm would need to sign a paper (Off farm manure/ bedding verification) saying nothing is added to the manure. That could be bedding, lime, chemicals added to liquefy or stabilize nitrogen or odor control.

As for fertilizer, "mined material" is allowed. Think limestone, rock phosphate etc. Usually it is the processing that contaminates or makes it unusable in a certified operation.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

haypoint said:


> I attended a food safety group that was discussing food standards, the 6 months requirement was mentioned and I remembered it. I guess heat treating to temperatures that kill pathogens would cover the food safety requirement without the 6 mo.wait. It could have been 120 days and I was wrong by stating 180 days.
> 
> But, in reference to this discussion, you can't dump rabbit droppings onto/into your garden. I think we agree on that?


Currently, you can, if you incorporate it into the soil according to the 90/120 day rule. BUT, if I were running an organic farm or garden and selling my products, I don't think I would even do that, because of the current research into _E. coli_ in this article here, showing that there is a great possibility that _E. coli_ is taken up by the roots of a vegetable( in this case, lettuce and bacteria from extremely raw cow manure) 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC126537/

It's one thing to do something in your own garden, but quite another to do it in a situation where you are selling your vegetables to the public. Even then, I'm not so sure I would take the risk--knowing that rinsing might not remove any internalized _E. coli_ from the food I give to my children and grandchildren. And in my own garden, I get visits from deer, rabbits, woodchucks, and racoons pretty often, since it borders a woodlot......so one is never absolutely sure. Why up the odds?

Rather, since I am a great fan of biomass, I would apply any raw manure to the active fallow areas that I am preparing for eventual rotation onto active gardening......and not apply any form of manure--except well aged and prepared compost directly onto or into the active growing garden plot. That's just me, not the NOP ruling.

I hope more research will be done on this situation.

geo


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## goodatit (May 1, 2013)

i grew some of the best tasting tomatoes on 100% rabbit manure. i also raised the rabbits that supplied the manure. best manure ever.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Spinach recall, strawberry recall and Cantaloupe recall caused by improperly composted manure.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

There's a limit to what I'm OK with... And that's humanure. I think that is pretty hazardous and just asking for trouble and something to go wrong. 

Regular manure, however, applied correctly to the soil substrate should be just fine in most instances.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Does regular manure, applied correctly to the soil substrate remove the risk of e coli related hospitalizations from fresh vegetables? How is that correctly done?


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Does regular manure, applied correctly to the soil substrate remove the risk of e coli related hospitalizations from fresh vegetables? How is that correctly done?


Seeing as manure used as fertilizer for eons and is the most sustainable, environmentally friendly, and often cheapest fertilizer option, there are obviously methods for applying it correctly. Personally I would allow it to compost first. Now you tell me...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> Seeing as manure used as fertilizer for eons and is the most sustainable, environmentally friendly, and often cheapest fertilizer option, there are obviously methods for applying it correctly. Personally I would allow it to compost first. Now you tell me...


People have been eating the flesh of dead monkeys for a long time, too, but I won't encourage others to do it. Just as I won't pretend that there is a safe way to apply un-composted manure to garden soil. 

You stated that correctly applied it would be fine in most cases. If you are going to advocate a hazardous practice, at least tell us the safe way method you referred to. 

While animal waste adds humus and micro nutrients to soil, a ton of properly composted bedding and manure supplies only a few pounds of the active ingredients N, P and K. Shipping alone makes manure among the most costly fertilizers.

Even on site manure is costly when you factor in the drums used to turn the compost, the covering (roof, tarps, shed) to prevent concentrated liquids leaching into the ground and the time or equipment to turn the piles.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

haypoint said:


> People have been eating the flesh of dead monkeys for a long time, too, but I won't encourage others to do it. Just as I won't pretend that there is a safe way to apply un-composted manure to garden soil.
> 
> You stated that correctly applied it would be fine in most cases. If you are going to advocate a hazardous practice, at least tell us the safe way method you referred to.
> 
> ...


I'm sure anyone doing manure will be aware of the measures they have to take to make their applications safe.


Yep... Aware of the cost of doing manure. However, from the perspective of sustainability, the weights may be different. 

This seems like a reasonably well balanced article discussing the pro and cons of chemical and manure fertilizers:

http://www.sustainabletable.org/207/soil-quality


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Heritagefarm said:


> There's a limit to what I'm OK with... And that's humanure. I think that is pretty hazardous and just asking for trouble and something to go wrong.
> 
> Regular manure, however, applied correctly to the soil substrate should be just fine in most instances.


While there is no guarantee that pathogens can be completely eliminated from our food system, there are proper manure handling methods which, we can all read and educate ourselves. Here's a quote from one internet source which might help: 


[FONT=Arial, VERDANA]*"CONCLUSION*[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]From what we know about 0157, there is no reason to suspect that organic produce is more likely to carry 0157 than conventional produce, and there is even some basis for hypothesizing that 0157 could be less common in organic than in conventional livestock systems. Several of the core practices and principles of organic farming - notably the aging and composting of manure, the general desire to operate systems as nearly as closed as possible and to market locally, the infrequent use of antibiotics, the emphasis on probiotics and maintenance of healthy microflora in livestock (and people) and of high levels of microbial activity in soils - could be expected to reduce the levels of 0157 on organic farms. Unfortunately, none can ensure its absence, and there appear to be no data on occurrence of 0157 on organic farms. The routes by which 0157 moves into farms apply almost equally to organic farms (e.g. via birds that have been feeding on a farm with a high level of 0157). Thus there is no basis for complacency and special precautions are still very necessary. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]What worked in the past may not work today. As much as it may run counter to what were once valid notions of healthy food, children and persons with weakened immune systems should not consume raw milk. Good sanitation practices for livestock, harvest containers and contact surfaces, and postharvest washing are very important. Farmers and their certifying organizations should encourage improvements in composting systems to achieve uniform exposure to high temperatures. Curing of compost for 4 months, aging of uncomposted manure for a year, and aeration or composting of slurries (32) should be encouraged; it also produces better amendments. More specific and stringent regulations than currently specified in certification codes may be appropriate, at least until we have a much better understanding of 0157, and how it is affected by organic practices. Intensive testing is required to establish that 0157 is NOT present on a farm, thus organic organizations might consider collaborative projects and seeking assistance to investigate 0157 on organic farms. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, VERDANA]*Some provisional guidelines for reducing E. coli 0157 on the organic farm* [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

Ensure that farm residents, workers and visitors are aware of the nature of the _E.coli_ 0157 problem, and of personal preventative measures they should take to reduce risk. *
Prohibit or carefully supervise activities of small children in areas where they might be exposed to fresh manure. *
Follow good sanitation practices for livestock, harvest containers and contact surfaces, and wash vegetable produce free of soil.
Flush water troughs with fresh water frequently and clean them regularly.
Consider whether imported manure is highly likely to contain _E.coli_ 0157 (e.g. fresh ruminant manure from a feedlot). *
Take care to prevent cross contamination of old or composted manure with fresh manure. *
Make improvements to the composting system to ensure thorough mixing of compost during the high temperature phase. *
Allow compost to cure for 2-4 months (or longer) after the heating phase. *
Aerate slurries for 1-3 months, or compost them, e.g. with straw
Age uncomposted manure for at least one year before use. *
Clean hides of livestock before taking them to the abattoir.
Process liquid effluents from the farm in holding ponds/wetlands for 20 days or more.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, VERDANA]*Asterisked items apply also to gardeners making use of manure "[/FONT]

The above was quoted from this complete article by the Canadian Organic Growers organzation http://orgprints.org/434/1/434.htm

We can ALL use as much education as we can absorb--and then put it to use on our own operation, large or small. 

geo[/FONT]


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

geo in mi said:


> While there is no guarantee that pathogens can be completely eliminated from our food system, there are proper manure handling methods which, we can all read and educate ourselves. Here's a quote from one internet source which might help:
> 
> 
> [FONT=Arial, VERDANA]*"CONCLUSION*[/FONT]
> ...


After a bit of a rocky start, much of these cautions are scientifically valid. 

From what I know about e coli 0157, there is no reason to suspect that the initial conclusions quoted above are based in any factual information. 
In reading the conclusion, when it started in with there is no reason to suspect that vegetables grown with manure would be more likely to have e coli than foods grown with commercial fertilizers, you lost me. You might want to review the recall records for Whole Foods. Check out the report following the spinach and cantaloupe recall. Armed with facts, you might conclude something different. 
Then the conclusion drifts from the hypothesizing that organic has less e coli than conventional food, to the myth that organic livestock have less or no e coli than commercial livestock. A decade ago, there was a study that claimed that feeding corn to cattle created an e coli explosion and by avoiding grain, the problem goes away. None of that it true, of course, but internet myths that support a position that some people wish were true, live on.
The reason I started this thread, I didnât want to derail the person that asked about fresh rabbit manure directly into the garden.
. The author, quoted above, made a long sentence with lots of points Iâd like to discuss. 
âSeveral of the core practices and principles of organic farming - notably the aging and composting of manure, _{this is done to reduce weed seeds, speed decomposition and reduce e coli, but e coli levels would rarely become zero, the amount found in conventional chemical fertilizers.}_ 
 the general desire to operate systems as nearly as closed as possible and to market locally _{local marketing aids the local economy, but is not known to reduce the risk of exposure to e coli}_
, the infrequent use of antibiotics, the emphasis on probiotics and maintenance of healthy microflora in livestock (and people) and of high levels of microbial activity in soils - could be expected to reduce the levels of 0157 on organic farms _{ not sure how, exactly, the presumed lower level of antibiotics results in a lower amount of e coli. Since most probiotics are not laboratory inspected, I presume some are helpful and some are pixie dust. Not sure that certified organic soils have microbial activity that is absent from conventional soils. Truthfully, all agriculturally significant soils have microbial activity and soils not receiving loads of manure with e coli will logically have less e coli to for that microbial activity to digest}_
I think my question about organic manure is answered. It can come from just about any source, as long as it is composted or heated artificially.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

From the viewpoint of sustainability, does manure or synthetic fertilizer get a leg up? Chemical fertilizers are part of the military-industrial complex and as such support the current breed of crony corporate capitalism in the United States and abroad. However, it is prudent to point out that this complex produces artificial nitrogen fertilizer very efficiently. The P and K, however, have to be mined, from my understanding, or at least sourced from non-renewable sources. Correct if wrong. Manure is highly renewable and can usually be very easily locally sourced, however, and it ousts the military-industrial complex from the equation, ultimately giving people more freedom and control over their food and lives. Trucking manure around, however, may take more fuel per acre than synth fertilizers and therefore produce more emissions per acre. Further, manure necessarily is sourced from animals which results in needing more acreage devoted to animals and less to crops. I feel that a lot of the organic/natural food war stems purely from a desire to separate from the corporatism that has clenched the US by the throat.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Manure is way better at adding humus, decaying plant material to the soil than a bag of 19-19-19.
Buzz word alert: Military, Industrial, Complex, Crony, Corporate, Capitalism, mining.
Conspiracy alert: manure ousts military-industrial complex from equation, gives freedom back to the people. Corporatism has us by the throat.
In a discussion on the virtues of manure over chemical fertilizers, you have shown your dislike for capitalism, big business and big Ag. You have your feelings and it is doubtful youâll change them. 
While the discussion of one vs the other is perhaps better served as its own thread, we can at least agree that there isnât enough manure in the world to fertilize the crops that limit starvation. There isnât enough manure in this country to fertilize the crops that we depend on. There isnât enough manure in your state or county to sustain the crops in your area.
The amount of NPK in a ton of composted manure is surprisingly low.
Often times those that despise modern agricultural methods, harken back to the good old days. In reality, the topsoil was lost at an astounding rate, due to annual plowing and frequent cultivation. Crop residue was plowed under, leaving the soil exposed to wind and water erosion. Big Ag practices provide lots of crop residue, adding tons of plant material back to the soil.
I feel that a lot of the organic/natural food war stems purely from a feeling we must separate from Big Ag that has provided us with lots of low cost food out of jealousy. How do you like your sour grapes?
If you buy your animalâs feed from an off farm source and compost what manure, garden waste, leaves, grass clippings you can acquire, you may have enough manure to improve your vegetable garden. But donât tell the guy that has charted 70 years of increased yields that what heâs doing is wrong.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Manure is way better at adding humus, decaying plant material to the soil than a bag of 19-19-19.
> Buzz word alert: Military, Industrial, Complex, Crony, Corporate, Capitalism, mining.
> Conspiracy alert: manure ousts military-industrial complex from equation, gives freedom back to the people. Corporatism has us by the throat.
> In a discussion on the virtues of manure over chemical fertilizers, you have shown your dislike for capitalism, big business and big Ag. You have your feelings and it is doubtful youâll change them.
> ...


I've tried having conversations with you before, but they always devolve into an immature dissection of those who don't worship at the altar of industrial agriculture. Therefore I take leave of this discussion, unless you can offer insight without obviously agenda-driven propaganda, amen.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> I've tried having conversations with you before, but they always devolve into an immature dissection of those who don't worship at the altar of industrial agriculture. Therefore I take leave of this discussion, unless you can offer insight without obviously agenda-driven propaganda, amen.


I'd like to discuss this without the catch phrases and buzz words. Rather than name calling of capitalism and big ag, perhaps a discussion on the facts? 

If you don't drive a Ford because they rust out, we could discuss that. But if you don't drive a Ford because the company is owned by a Jew hating anti-Semite, well, maybe not a topic we can communicate on.

The chemicals elements that feed plants are found in manure in varying amounts. Those exact same elements are found in bagged fertilizer, in concentrated amounts. Manures also contain a variety of other chemicals/elements/compounds from the plant material they came from. 

Trace minerals can be adjusted to help animal health and trace elements can be adjusted to help with soil health. The minerals and amounts will be different from what the animal needs to what the soil needs. For example, all animals need salt. Most plants do not. Adding manure to crops adds salt.

Most small weed seeds remain viable after passing through an animal. Many weed seeds remain viable after composting. Once weed seeds get into a garden, they will germinate over a span of at least a decade, often longer. The introduction of weed seeds to your garden or crop land will greatly increase the time and expense of garden/crop management. Removing weeds prior to the setting of seeds, requires weekly or sometimes daily eradication. This eradication can be done manually or chemically. Cultivation in a garden requires a great time and effort, no matter the weather. Cultivation in a crop required repeated use of tractors, use of fuel, causes subsoil compaction. Both open the soil to erosion of the topsoil into streams and rivers. Applications of selective herbicides is costly. 

But this thread isn't about each of us trying to convince the other that one way is good and the other is bad. I prefer mass quantities of manure. But I admit that I cannot balance the needs of garden or crops with manure alone. A soil test will detect specific micronutrients my soil may be deficient and I can add the minimum amount that my crop needs.

This thread is about requirements for organic manure. I have friends that buy "Dairy Doo", a composted manure product, suitable for organic gardens. These people, and I assume many more, believe that when the bag says organic, that it must be from an organic dairy. Not a requirement. 

For all the fuss some folks have with GMO, buying manure that comes entirely from GMO corn, GMO soybeans, GMO cotton seed meal, GMO dried beet pulp and perhaps GMO alfalfa, seems odd. Don't you think?

Then as this discussion progressed, e coli dangers were considered. I thought we'd all agree that manure has e coli and bagged 19-19-19 does not. I smack my forehead when anyone concludes that the opposite is true.

Organic manure can come from composted manure from farms that feed exclusively GMO and inject their livestock with antibiotics and spray their crops with herbicides, fungicides and insecticides.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

haypoint said:


> The chemicals elements that feed plants are found in manure in varying amounts. Those exact same elements are found in bagged fertilizer, in concentrated amounts.
> 
> Not necessarily. A conversion takes place when the manure is eaten and decomposed by the microorganisms in the soil. When those microorganisms die and they decompose, then the chemicals that the plants use are absorbed by the roots....The chemicals in bagged fertilizers can also be different than those directly absorbed by the plants. Thus, it is up to soil microorganisms to do the converting....The same thing happens with the conversion of plant compost into chemicals which can be absorbed by the growing plant.
> 
> ...


Once again, the NOP isn't listening. And neither am I. Manure is manure. 

Respectfully,

geo


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I would even go so far as to agree that when all procedures are followed to minimize the e coli found in animal manures, the risk is similar to that of bagged fertilizer. There will always be environmental risks to both farming methods.


Many of my posts are to either meant to learn or teach and often both. If just a few people understand that manure comes with bacterial risks, perhaps modifying their behavior to prevent an illness, then it was worth my time.

This is the first discussion that mentioned GMO that the lack of GMO carryover was admitted to. You get a gold star. Thanks.

Hopefully this discussion will help a person decide which bag of composted manure they should buy.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

My very first(and a lot more) bag of composted manure was bat guano. I was pretty much unaware of the bacterial risk at the time. I was acutely aware of the weight, as I toted those 80 pound bags on my shoulder, across the soft disked soil in the field on my way to fill the planter hopper. 

I did wear gloves and boots when I forked the cow manure out of the tromp shed and into the old ground-driven McCormick manure spreader.

And I hated it when Bessie would slap my face with her manure laden tail at milking time........

The risks we took....... 

geo


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

geo in mi said:


> My very first(and a lot more) bag of composted manure was bat guano. I was pretty much unaware of the bacterial risk at the time. I was acutely aware of the weight, as I toted those 80 pound bags on my shoulder, across the soft disked soil in the field on my way to fill the planter hopper.
> 
> I did wear gloves and boots when I forked the cow manure out of the tromp shed and into the old ground-driven McCormick manure spreader.
> 
> ...


Bat guano has the advantage above other manures by being weed free, plus being high in N. 
Guano was hauled out of Carlsbad Caverns for many years. Earlier in this discussion, it was mentioned that K and perhaps P were mined and that has a negative connotation, non-renewable, etc. Since it took hundreds, perhaps thousands of years for the guano deposits to build up, hauling the guano out by the semi-load would be very close to mining, too. 

I, too, have spent my life around animal manure. I'm sure I have eaten a few meals without washing my hands after hours of shoveling manure. 

But I did experience an e coli "event", once. My water well experienced a failure at the pitless adapter. I had spread composted horse manure in the nearby flower beds. After a good rain, I noticed the water for the coffee was "off", but had no smell. After a few cups of hot coffee and a few hours for the e coli to work, I was in distress. Works sort of like the medications you take to get ready for a colonoscopy. 
Would hate to sell a tomato and give a customer such distress.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Bat guano has the advantage above other manures by being weed free, plus being high in N.
> Guano was hauled out of Carlsbad Caverns for many years. Earlier in this discussion, it was mentioned that K and perhaps P were mined and that has a negative connotation, non-renewable, etc. Since it took hundreds, perhaps thousands of years for the guano deposits to build up, hauling the guano out by the semi-load would be very close to mining, too.
> 
> I, too, have spent my life around animal manure. I'm sure I have eaten a few meals without washing my hands after hours of shoveling manure.
> ...


Your claims are based on the assumption that using manure for fertilizer provides an unnecessary risk for exposure to E. coli. While it is true that manure contains E. coli and chemical fertilizers do not, this does not necessarily indicate that manure has a higher chance of causing illness when handled properly, as evidenced by the quantity of E. coli related recalls from conventional sources clearly using modern agricultural techniques such as chemical fertilizer and limited to no manure. 

The basis of the non-renewable argument stems from the fact that we may run out of mining sources for minerals, while we probably won't run out of manure.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

_&#8220;Your claims are based on the assumption that using manure for fertilizer provides an unnecessary risk for exposure to E. coli. While it is true that manure contains E. coli and chemical fertilizers do not, this does not necessarily indicate that manure has a higher chance of causing illness when handled properly, as evidenced by the quantity of E. coli related recalls from conventional sources clearly using modern agricultural techniques such as chemical fertilizer and limited to no manure. &#8220;_
I never claimed that using manure was a sure way to kill consumers. Please refer to earlier posts that detail the required steps to reduce the risk of e coli in manure. Also, refer to my earlier comment that when those steps are followed, those risks are reduced. Within that posting, I also stated that all crops, fertilized with manure or bagged fertilizer, can become exposed to e coli and other bacteria in the environment.
In most cases, properly composted and properly applied manure isn&#8217;t a huge risk. But if a consumer of your produce got sick, was hospitalized or died, does it seem like an unnecessary risk then? It is not my intent to scare people from using manure, just want people to understand the real risks and the steps necessary to REDUCE the risk.
Please do not assume that modern agricultural practices are devoid of manure. If you were to research many of the food borne illnesses that resulted in recalls, you will find that improperly applied manure was the cause. The spinach recall and the cantaloupe recall are the most well-known. 

_&#8220;The basis of the non-renewable argument stems from the fact that we may run out of mining sources for minerals, while we probably won't run out of manure.&#8221;_
 My comment was specifically about guano. Mining guano by the hundreds of tons, daily, that has taken many centuries to accumulate is, in my opinion, non-renewable. 
If just 10% of cropland was converted from chemical fertilizers to manure, with manure being applied at a rate that provides the NPK necessary, we would run out of manure in the blink of an eye. 
Also, with the increased use of manure, herbicide use would increase to counter the increase in weeds associated with manure.


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