# Natural Bee habitat?



## Henrykjr (4 mo ago)

Hey folks,

I have begun the process of transforming a 1.2 Acre remote piece of property in a small food forest.

To begin the process were are cutting out all underbrush on the property and when it is done the remaining tree canopy will consist of Oaks, Pines and Dragonwood trees.

We are waiting to have to the soil tested for amendment and which fruits/veggies are best suited for the property.

Part of this process will be a slightly more friendly environment to bee's, butterflies and lizards. So my questions are as follows.

1. I would like a natural bee habitat where a colony is started and never harvested for the honey.....really I only want them for pollenation.
2. There will be a number of beds panted that are bee and butterfly friendly....trying to see what bees like best?
3. Also looking for the amount of flowers I would need to support for a colony?

Will this idea even work?

HK


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I am a beekeeper.

Beginning in the 1960s we have introduced new viruses and poisons to honeybees every decade. What was once an easy hobby has become terribly difficult.

So long as you can avoid a 'monoculture' you will be fine.

Where I live, we have a very active beekeeping club. Monthly meetings, all summer long we have potlucks at each other's homes, where we perform joint hive inspections. Every new beekeeper has a lot of opportunities to get their hands into hives. I recommend that you find your local club.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

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## Henrykjr (4 mo ago)

Thank you for that resource.......that's a great start!


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## Henrykjr (4 mo ago)

ET1 SS said:


> I am a beekeeper.
> 
> Beginning in the 1960s we have introduced new viruses and poisons to honeybees every decade. What was once an easy hobby has become terribly difficult.
> 
> ...


 So does that mean I can establish some type of natural hive and not touch it?

The food forest concept has 9 layers to in varying in height...... from there each layer will have multiple plantings.

I am in touch with my local AG extension office.....that will provide listings of soil correcting plants, co-plantings and then the best items that grow naturally in that soil.

This task is not an easy one for me as I have several considerations going on at the same time.......I need to build the lizard population for mosquito and no-see um control.

Considering the drought that California is going through I am anticipating a huge boom in farming in the SE. This 1.2 acres will be a hybid of a food forest and glamping site.

We will build as much wildlife habitat as we can which trying to grow natural producing food.

Obviously the soil and insects you put on property are the start.

HK


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Forest soil tends to be fungi-based whereas most garden ecosystems are worm-based. That will need to be addressed somewhere as you transition your property.

I have kept bees up high and I have kept bees at ground level. They are happy in both cases. 

If you were to consider locating your hives 20 to 40 foot [say in a tree-house] it would give them a much larger radius of operations. It takes a lot of energy to fly 'up'. When bees first exit their hive they tend to hover for a minute to gain their bearings before they go. If this happens at 40 foot attitude, they will tend to hold that altitude seeking flowers and they will not come down until they have found the flowers they want.

I have seen bee hives located inside second story attics and people on the sidewalk had no idea that bees were present. It makes for great 'guerilla' urban beekeeping, when you keep bees without disturbing neighbors. Whereas in the same neighborhood, hives on the ground are seen and neighbors get frightened.


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

Henrykjr said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> I have begun the process of transforming a 1.2 Acre remote piece of property in a small food forest.
> 
> ...


From my experience, I believe anyone keeping bees would do best to remember that these are a domestic animal. With varroa and other diseases there should be some expectation of intervention by the beekeeper. I keep bees 20km or further from any other beekeeper or farm- in the forest within range of alpine flowers, but all natural forage and no pesticides or farms. And they have still developed varroa and even some foulbrood. 
So just being realistic, in my personal situation have found it best to keep hives you intend to go through regularly as when these things pop up you need to intervene. Bee keeping requires a lot if learning as well as practice. Good luck with your food forest, it’s such a neat idea 👍


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## Henrykjr (4 mo ago)

For the property we are working on it's 90 miles away from where we live. This particular parcel will be developed as close to a natural habitat as possible because we simply cannot drive up every single weekend to kill it up there. 

The property will be part natural habitat, part food forest, part bugout location as well as an Airbnb camping site. The entire area is still wooded including the parcel to the left and right of me.

This is an experiment for developing a larger 5-10 acre property like this......mistakes on a small property like this tend to be less costly.

So getting back to the whole bee thing........I just wanted to give a bee colony a chance......I'm sure the will be a lot of learning along the way.

HK


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Reality--

A "food forest" is great if you want to purchase most of your protein and calories at the store. The only things that will grow in the understory of a forest are weeds (some people call them wild flowers) with little nutritional value. Even the Indians used to clear land for real crops. (The Blackhawk War started because Blackhawk led his clan off the reservation when their garden plot was played out and they were starving.)....I've read that it takes 2sq mi of natural forest habitat to nutritionally support each hunter-gatherer. ...If you want to restore natural habitat, fine. But you can't live off the yield of a few acres.

Next-- honey bees are a foreign invader brought here by Europeans. They out-compete the natural pollinators and force them out. If the local honey bee population falls, the natural ones grow, and they are best adapted to the natural vegetation.

There's only two practical reasons to keep honey bees-- (1) to harvest honey, and (b) to use them to "mob graze" certain fruit & nut trees to ensure a maximum yield for commercial purposes....A third reason is for a selfish purpose-- to provide the keeper with a relaxation, a hobby...The most famous Roman poet, Vergil, retired to raise bees in the country, and Conan Doyle had his hero, Holmes, do the same-- both in Europe where honey bees are native.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

doc- said:


> A "food forest" is great if you want to purchase most of your protein and calories at the store. The only things that will grow in the understory of a forest are weeds (some people call them wild flowers) with little nutritional value. Even the Indians used to clear land for real crops.


You paint with a very wide brush.

Where I live, I am amongst many Native Tribal members. This tribe did not have the technology of Agriculture before European colonialists arrived. They were taught gardening during the WWI era of Victory Gardens campaign.

They were hunter-gatherers and existed entirely on what they could forage from the forest understory.

I grew up farming in a region well known for droughts. My grandparents and parents were farmers before the Dust Bowl, and they tried to farm through the Dust Bowl. I fully understand why farming in a drought-prone region is horrible. After I retired, I migrated to a region that has never known a true drought.

But do not assume the forests in drought-prone regions will resemble the forests of regions that are not drought-prone.





> ... I've read that it takes 2sq mi of natural forest habitat to nutritionally support each hunter-gatherer. ...If you want to restore natural habitat, fine. But you can't live off the yield of a few acres.


I have raised cattle in conditions where our land had a carrying capacity of 20 head per acre. Though I am also aware that in many regions of the US carrying capacity is 100-acres per head.

Making the assumption that all pasture land has a 100-acre per head carrying capacity is a mistake.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

^^^ You misunderstand the discussion....The concept of a "food forest" is one of those feel warm & fuzzy things meant to sell books to those who don't know much about ag or ecology.. 

Ag intended to produce real food- beans & grain for human consumption or for animal feed for protein production for humans, requires light. Not much light allowed for crops when trees are competing. At best, a forest floor will allow one to forage for herbs & spices-- no significant nutrient density....My example was meant to illustrate that it takes 2 whole sq mi to forage as a source of food, not just a couple acres, and, that includes hunting, not just picking nuts & berries....

...Which reminds me (everything reminds me of something), Henry-- things like blackberries & raspberries do well under trees-- That's where they evolved to live....and black cherry trees are a favorite of all kinds of birds.

Where is your property? Did I miss that? Advice for WI or NH won't help much if you're in AZ.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

doc- said:


> ^^^ You misunderstand the discussion


I understand the discussion.





> ... My example was meant to illustrate that it takes 2 whole sq mi to forage as a source of food, not just a couple acres


In some regions one acre is enough space to feed a person, in other regions 100 acres is not enough.





> ... Where is your property? Did I miss that? Advice for WI or NH won't help much if you're in AZ.


I live in Maine.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

My question was to the OP- Henry.

Yes, one ac is more than enough to feed a person, if he's growing regular row crops, not if he's foraging the native vegetation & hunting for his food.


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## Henrykjr (4 mo ago)

For this property I am following a permaculture plan it is located in Florida Zone 9A

Here is a youtube channel I follow quite frequently: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC208478ECji1rdkDDbB0vHQ

The idea is to grow crops that natively fit well. The bee and insect habitats are important to the process.

Since it;s close to the river I have fishing options and hunting is allowed in our area.....in fact this 1.2 acres was used as a bow hunting camp for deer with 2 tree stands in it.

At 1.2 acres it's just large enough to experiment with......before taking it to scale.

If I am able to get this right...... the property will have good wildlife habitat, food producing trees and bushes, a small cabin (200 sq ft), 2 safari tents, and 3 outhouses.

One of my business' is real estate investing.......my wife and I have rehabbed quite a few homes that turned out awesome........the same will be for this property. This will be our second piece of land that we "rehab".......we own other pieces of land but have different uses for them.

Once all the kinks get worked out.....we will either expand this to 2.5 acres...... of take the plunge on a 5-10 Acre property (most likely scenario)

HK


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Three outhouses? Actual outhouses?


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## Henrykjr (4 mo ago)

Nah composting toilets

Here is it if you are curious:








Modern Outhouse Plans


Printable PDF plans for out second outhouse. As an outhouse, these plans can be used for a conventional pit toilet outhouse, or used with a composting toilet, or a traditional plumbed toilet with a water supply. The overhang can house a sink and there is also room for an outdoor shower. (A...




www.elevatedspaces.ca





HK


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I have spoken with two local Health Inspectors, who each told me that roughly 50% of their work load is inspecting the installation of new outhouses.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Be sure your county allows composting toilets. Mine doesn’t.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Be sure your county allows composting toilets. Mine doesn’t.


How would the county know?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

ET1 SS said:


> How would the county know?


Hmmm, a renter complains or a neighbor complains or the county requires inspections of rental properties. Lots of different ways the county would find out. Some areas are doing aerial scans to find out what people are doing on their properties.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Danaus29 said:


> Hmmm, a renter complains or a neighbor complains or the county requires inspections of rental properties. Lots of different ways the county would find out. Some areas are doing aerial scans to find out what people are doing on their properties.


That is far too much government.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

And too many nosey neighbors who have nothing better to do than report other people.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Henrykjr said:


> At 1.2 acres it's just large enough to experiment with......before taking it to scale.
> 
> If I am able to get this right...... the property will have good wildlife habitat, food producing trees and bushes, a small cabin (200 sq ft), 2 safari tents, and 3 outhouses.


Time out folks-- Property is 1.2ac-- about the size of a baseball field, and he wants to put *three *living quarters on it-- about 100 ft between each-- Unless he puts out bait, wildlife will stay away if they have anyplace else to go.....

He's counting on bees and worrying what they will eat-- but bees have a 2 mile range for foraging, so it really won't make much difference to the bees if he paves his full 1.2 ac over with asphalt or plants nothing but golden rod-- they'll need more...

...and under what situation is someone selling just 1.2 ac?...Probably some sort of a plan to subdivide a much larger tract, so Henry's small Garden of Eden may soon be just a small oasis in a large suburban eco-desert.

When I lived in the "burbs on 2/3rd ac (half of Henry's lot) we kept 3 horses, 2 pot-belly pigs, 2 mini-goats, 20 chickens and various cats & dogs, had a veggie garden with high tunnel and flower garden. It was a little personal Garden of Eden, a refuge in a metropolitan area, but it didn't make any impact at all the world of Nature nor provide me with any meaningful provisions to endure a disaster.


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## Henrykjr (4 mo ago)

Disagree here...... let me be clear by saying MY property is 1.2 acres.....that is what I personally own.......there are 700 acres surrounding mine in this particular development. All the landscape is similar.......just because I'm talking about what I'm planning to do doesn't mean that it's a 1.2 acre island..........there are thousands of surrounding acres here.

Much of the wildlife is already there.........because I am to some degree developing this property doesn't mean I can't make that habitat more friendly.

I live in Central Florida......and nearly 100% or the permitted housing here are wooded areas similar to mine that are simply razed for construction crews to come in and start building homes. We've all seen it, all over the country...... how can anyone plow down wooded areas, divide it into parcels and plant 2 Oaks back on the property? That simply does not work.

In terms of producing food.....I never once stated that I need to feed myself or my family in it......what I said is I wanted to plant a food forest and scale it (might have been on a different post here).

Lastly.....I am only looking to replace the habitat that I personally affect in developing this property........one of the first responses about planting....was awesome.....I now know what to plant at the entrance to the property.....SIMPLE

With regards to the bee topic......if we can jump out of the rabbit hole for a moment..........I know that the bee population has been hammered.....so I just want to explore doing my part wiht my little sliver of land to see if I can help out.......it was never about harvesting anything from the bees.....just providing them housing away from pesticides if possible.

HK


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

To have the most impact with a piece of land for nature, leave it alone. Let nature do the planting, let nature be the caretaker. Let it be what it would be without human intervention. The natural productivity finds itself. It needs no human intervention to do so.

I have hundreds and hundreds of acres of land on this farm that has never been farmed, broken, had human intervention. It’s doing just fine as it is. If I were to intervene, I would for certain wreck something. It is wild, it is 100% natural. It is as it was meant to be, and always will be. It is very productive, all on its own. 

I like your theory of what you would like to do. I like your drive, your care. But 1.2 acres, or 12 acres, or even 120 acres, is just not very much land. Once you start trying to remodel nature, something loses out in the natural balance of the landscape.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

One big concern about keeping bees in Florida is the local mosquito population. If there is water near the property, you will have mosquitoes. When you have mosquitoes the local residents call the authorities and demand they get sprayed. I have read about many areas being sprayed during the day when bees are actively foraging. The foragers died resulting in the death of the hive. If there is a possibility the area will be sprayed for mosquitoes, you face the possibility of losing your hives.

In Ohio, most hives are placed low for easy tending. The idea of building a platform and setting a hive up about 10 feet off the ground is intriguing. The mosquito spray is designed to stay close to the ground. Would a hive placed 10 feet up be spared from mosquito spray effects?

Is this property part of a planned housing development? Just curious. If it is you need to mark your lines so future buyers know the boundaries. Be prepared to watch other property owners flatten the vegetation and plant lawns. 

Bees need to be tended and treated for pests and disease. They can be a lot of work. If you want bees, then get bees. Do your research, join a local bee keepers club, listen to the old timers. My neighbor loves her bees. The one next to her had a huge colony removed from a shed, after I talked him out of burning them up! 

In the beekeeping section of the forum there are some threads created by alleyyooper. He has passed on but he wrote quite a bit about keeping bees. Read those posts. They are very informative.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

farmerDale said:


> To have the most impact with a piece of land for nature, leave it alone. Let nature do the planting, let nature be the caretaker. Let it be what it would be without human intervention. The natural productivity finds itself. It needs no human intervention to do so.


This works if you have no invasive noxious weeds. Left alone purple loostrife, privet, Canadian thistle and many other weeds will create a monoculture which is not natural or beneficial. I have seen fields that have been overrun with giant hogweed. Our woods was full of privet.


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## Henrykjr (4 mo ago)

The property is rural...... closest small city is 26 miles away.....closest large city is 90 miles.......closest small town...6 miles away (1 traffic light).

For the purpose of peoples imagination here....... imagine small parcels of land with garden shed on it.....that are simply an awesome hangout for the weekend, provide some fresh food to take home all while maintaining (although altering) what was previously there. These type of parcels exist all over Europe there are millions of them.

As many of you already know......working land is really hard and under appreciated by most in the country.......if the modest 1.2 acres works......then I will scale it...... small mistakes are less expensive than big mistakes that cost big $$$$$. 

Forums like this hold the key by drawing upon communities that have "seen it, done it" are are willing to contribute.

HK


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Yup, it depends for sure.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The county here uses drones now to see if you are building without permits.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Imported bees (the kind in hives) are not a desirable resident in a native habitat.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Henrykjr said:


> For the purpose of peoples imagination here....... imagine small parcels of land with garden shed on it.....that are simply an awesome hangout for the weekend, provide some fresh food to take home all while maintaining (although altering) what was previously there. These type of parcels exist all over Europe there are millions of them.


That's the way my neighborhood started out. The land was cheap, the area was quiet. Far enough away from the city to be peaceful, close enough to use as weekend retreats. 

Now the city has moved closer and the few houses that become available sell quickly and at really high prices. Some busybodies moved in and started trying to "clean up the place" so their property would be worth more. 😡 

Live with the land for a year. Other than removing what you have to and invasive plants, let it show you what it has to offer. You can always take plants out later. You can never bring back old trees or large, established beneficial plants. You'll want to see where the water stays in the spring or where the wildlife trails are located before putting up buildings.


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## Henrykjr (4 mo ago)

Yup noted......wildlife trails already marked, old trees staying, beneficial plants staying, and in January will have owned it for a year.....the only work that has been done so far was the setting of 15 fence posts across the front of the property.

Slow and easy does it for sure here

HK


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Henrykjr said:


> Disagree here...... let me be clear by saying MY property is 1.2 acres.....that is what I personally own.......there are 700 acres surrounding mine in this particular *development*.


Don't get me wrong-- Your heart is in the right place, but it sounds like you subscribe to The Bambi Journal of Environmental Sciences....It's one thing to live in suburbia and make your postage stamp "nature friendly" by providing cover, food, water and breeding habitat for the few remaining species that have access to it , but quite another to attempt to influence things out in the boonies.

FarmerDale stated it elegantly-- If you want it to be natural, let Nature do it....The best thing you can do is eliminate as many of the noxious, invasive species as you can (including honey bees) and don't meddle with the rest.

Note that Chicago's Midway Airport was located way out in the boonies on farm land in the 1920s, about 4 miles from The Loop. It was the world's busiest airport until the early-'60s when jets became the rage....Today you have to drive another 50miles out to see any farmland. More than likely, your *development *will include many yuppie types who want to live "in the country" but continue living like they were in the city. They will bring the city with them-- lawns, paved driveways, swimming pools etc.

If you want to buy all 700 acres, then maybe you'll succeed in accomplishing your goal....But even then-- Just leave it alone.

BTW- thee was never any crisis for bees with the "CCD" thing. Bee populations fluctuate naturally in their own rhythm (Cf- the extreme example is the 17-yr locust, and everyone is familiar with the deer/wolf interaction). Plenty of research has shown that use of pesticides had nothing to do with it. Bee populations fall every few decades, then rebound on schedule-- just like now.


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## Henrykjr (4 mo ago)

Over the weekend I went to a seminar where David the Good and another person from the Florida AG extension. The topic was on food forests and hosted at a food forest about 20 miles from my property. 

Bee keeping came up.....and certainly for my area things were a no go as many in the area tried the same thing and the colonies died out...... bummer.

There was extensive discussion on the use of butterflies to pick up the bee slack......so this is the direction I am going.

Thanks all for the great advice here....jumping into other areas of the forum.

HK


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