# King Shepherd? Anyone have any info?



## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

Looking for a dog that can help me herd some sheep and act as an overall guard for the farm. I've run into this 'king shepherd' and I'm wondering if anyone has any opinions/ideas/experience with the breed?


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Way back when, My Grandpa raised GSDs and he bred to the Japanese champion King, who was known for throwing good size and steady temperaments. His descendents were called King shepherds.
They weren't known for herding, but for being good family and protection dogs. They weren't "sharp", they'd take a person down in a cheerful, business like sort of way.

More recently, I've seen the name King Shepherds referring to a "breed" of oversize GSDs with a touch of Malamute in the mix. I've heard both good and pretty bad things about them, but I've never heard that they were bred at all for herding ability.

Sounds like what you want is a good Australian Shepherd. Even the larger, more pet bred lines can still do a bit of herding (not competition level, but helpful farm dogs) and are protective dogs.


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## d'vash (Apr 25, 2013)

A King Shepherd is just a fancy term to describe a German Shepherd Dog with a larger bone structure. 

IMO, dont go out looking for a "King Shepherd" in specific. Instead, look for a solid GSD from good working lines. Shepherds from working lines are naturally larger than those bred for show, and also have higher drive. 

A herding GSD breeder might be hard to find (but it's not impossible), as most working GSD breeders are into Schutzhund. 

Contact GSD clubs, herding and Schutzhund associations for local contacts. If there is a police dog training centre in your area, they might have some cull puppies or young dogs that didn't make the cut. 

Of course, you could always grab any GSD that was raised on a farm if lineage isn't a concern of yours.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

BTW - I hope I didn't give the impression that no GSD herds - I've just not heard of any labeled King shepherds being known for herding.
Also, be aware that their herding style is not what we are used to here. No GSD is going to do collie-type herding (not Border, Rough or Bearded, all different, but all more what most folks think of). And when most folks say they want herding, that's what they mean. A good herding shepherd is also harder to find than most people want.
Think more like "live fence" to describe the shepherd style. My GSD mix used to help me move stock, and I'm hoping my GSD pup will as well. They are wonderful dogs to keep everything where they should be, and thrive on routine and enforcing it.

A search for it brings up some clubs and breeders.
https://www.google.com/search?q=her...evid=243963683&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

What I've heard of King or Shiloh shepherds is not good. They have been bred for size and coat, not athleticism or brains. But, I don't have any actual experience. 

I've never heard of a GSD as being a "live fence", but I guess that sums up their talent. They don't gather and direct sheep. They run the boundary and keep the sheep out of the crop fields. When the sheep go back home, they follow the shepherd and the dog takes up the rear.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

Maura said:


> When the sheep go back home, they follow the shepherd and the dog takes up the rear.


Thats weird, I always drive behind my sheep and push them foreward. i dont think they would follow me anywhere.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

They are used in mainland Europe where the sheep aren't wild like Scottish sheep. The sheep are more docile and tend to stick together better, so you don't really need a gathering dog. Because they are moved every day from pen or barn to pasture, the sheep are trained as lambs to keep with the herd and eventually to follow the shepherd. I had Black Welsh Mountain sheep, which are on the wild side, and they would follow me. However, when I first got them my border collie was worth his weight in gold.


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## karenp (Jun 7, 2013)

We have a GSD that herds goats. He hasn't had any training,but will put them back if they slip out of the gate and he will help to move them to different pastures.


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

Don't know the breed but googled it to learn a little. For what it is worth, I would stay away from a new breed. It is very lovely and the breed club has high aspirations but it has been around only very little and hasn't had time to show a consistent breed standard. I only read about working and protection abiity I didn't see any dogs actually involved in working or protecting (sitting beside a baby doesn't count). This may be a good reliable dog for your place when it is proven - or you may choose to do some of that proving in exchange for a break in the price.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

If you love a GSD (  and who could blame you?) just do a quick, google search; https://www.google.com/search?q=her...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
And you will find breeders, clubs and info.

Herding breeds are a big umbrella and there are a LOT of different styles under it. I think you'd probably want a dog that works the way an Australian Shepherd works, but go see dogs working and decide what you like.

What you won't be able to do is teach one breed another breeds style, so it is really important to know what you're getting.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Maura said:


> I've never heard of a GSD as being a "live fence", but I guess that sums up their talent. They don't gather and direct sheep. They run the boundary and keep the sheep out of the crop fields. When the sheep go back home, they follow the shepherd and the dog takes up the rear.


Maura, my GSD mix, Thunder, was a great example of that. I used to joke that they weren't police dogs for nothing. He firmly believed that the goats belong HERE, the chickens belong THERE, nothing is allowed THERE and everything else needed to Keep Out. And he_ loved_ routine. Come 8 am, I must be escorted on chores and the rounds must be made and everything inspected. Afterwards, he'd patrol the fence, then, choose a spot of high ground from which he could keep an eye one everything - and I do mean everything. Hawks were not allowed to circle.
Come 6 pm, it is time for everything to go home, that's where he wanted them, and that's where he'd help put them. Animals were not allowed to crowd me for food, everything had to stay orderly. After he was 4 years old, he didn't want to be locked in the house at night - it interfered with his rounds. There were fencelines to walk every few hours.

Keep in mind, this was a dog who had had hours upon hours of training in working with me, but his instinct told him that this was how you control stock.
Hopefully my new GSD pup will be able to fill his pawprints a few years and hours and hours of training from now


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## Cat Hill (Nov 8, 2012)

What about the prey instinct of the GSD? Would they be okay with poultry, cattle, horses etc? I've read that their prey instinct made them hard on livestock


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

ALL dogs have prey drive (yes, even LGDs, who actually have really high prey drive, they just also have very strong pack drive - they learn to see livestock as "pack") it's all about the training.

Sunni has been here for a week and a half and in that time she'd have _liked_ to have chased cats, chickens, ducks and the one rabbit. But having a stop put to it at 10 weeks means I won't have a real problem at 10 months. She is also already earning things like Down and Leave It, and again, when she hits adolescence and temporarily goes brain dead, we'll still have a good strong base of behavior to work from.
I have absolutely no concerns about her growing up and savaging livestock.

Having said that - there are a LOT of lines of GSD. Getting a dog from sport bred lines, even the most mellow pup in that litter is far, FAR more dog than most folks can handle. And unless you need that drive, why would you want it?

Be sure to look at breeders and bloodlines doing what you want. Be realistic. Sunni will be getting a LOT more work than 95% of dogs ... but will still spend most of her time just hanging out with the family, so I never even looked at "working" lines of GSD.

Remember when you are looking, drive and intelligence in dogs is like dynamite. If you _need_ it and can channel it, then it can do a lot, but mostly it's just a destructive force.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Otter said:


> ALL dogs have prey drive (yes, even LGDs, who actually have really high prey drive, they just also have very strong pack drive - they learn to see livestock as "pack") it's all about the training.


actually that's not quite accurate. LGDs have a very, very low prey drive, although they have a good protection drive. They do not view their livestock as pack. If they did, they would play with them just as they do other dogs within their pack. They know that dogs are part of their pack and livestock is what they are supposed to guard and protect.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

"Drive" is a buzz word used by many who do not really understand it or how it relates to the dogs behaviors. A "drive" is a dogs reaction to stimuli, and "prey drive" is is simply the desire to chase something moving. All dogs have it, even LGDs, most LGD's are quite happy to chase ANY animal that doesn't belong in its "pack". It's still prey drive and they do not have less then any other breed on average IMO. Actually some LGD's especially the brown ones have more prey drive then the average companion dog. LGD's should have a strong "pack drive" which is the desire to maintain a emotional contact with their pack, the flock. Playing has nothing to do with pack drive. My dogs do not play with me the same way they play with each other, there is no biting allowed when they play with me. They bite each other nonstop. I have set boundaries, much like their would be with the livestock. "Pack drive" will make them stay with the flock. Then their is defense drive which is how the dogs going to react to what ever is threatening it and the flock. 

Here is the problem I see with most LGD's being bred. The majority of people have no idea how there dogs work and just talk about prey drive. Most LGD's need to be fenced in with their stock and the excuse is they were bred to patrol and roamed many miles a day in the mountains. Well most grazing animals spend the majority of their time grazing, not roaming and if the dogs patrolling 10 miles away from the flock its left it open for attack.There were no fences where they were first bred and dogs that did not stay with the flock were culled not bred. They are loosing their pack drive because its not a trait being bred for in modern day LGD's. They are simply being fenced in with their animals and basically becoming estate guardians.


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## jolly rabbit (Apr 30, 2012)

just wanted to add my .02 cents, my buddy had a "king shepherd" very beautiful dog, but it was so large and awkward/clumsy I couldn't possibly see him being useful as a shepherd, great protector and family dog though.


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## OakHollowBoers (Jun 26, 2013)

Jason, that makes sense, I get it. I definitely prefer my dogs that aren't looking for ways out of the fence. Currently at 1 female with absolute respect for the boundary/stays with her goats, 1 6 month old male who seems headed in the exact same direction, 1 female (littermate to the first) that looks for openings over or under at times. She doesn't dig, but she likes to go for brief excursions, given the opportunity.


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## Fauna (Jul 21, 2007)

In response to Cat's post: 
What about the prey instinct of the GSD? Would they be okay with poultry, cattle, horses etc? I've read that their prey instinct made them hard on livestock.


I currently have 4 dogs, one of which is an almost 3yr old GSD. She 100% ignores the chickens/guineas/turkeys. It's my 4 month old GP/Anat. mix and 2 yr old Aussie mix that are the chicken killers. I can't leave either one unattended or I will be missing 1/2 dozen chickens in a matter of minutes. My GSD has an extremely high drive, but it's for chasing squirrels, dragging tree limbs etc...


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