# Considering *GASP* not spaying our cat???



## cabingrl11 (Jan 10, 2014)

Sorry this is the second thread of the day I have started...I'm hogging the forum and I apologize but this will be it for a while! Promise!

We are bringing another 6 month old female kitten home as a companion for our current cat Gemma. Gemma is 7 months old and IS spayed. The new cat is not. We keep cats around here for our mouse/rodent issue that cropped up since our terrier died last fall. Absolutely everything you read on the internet says it is essential to have your cats spayed/neutered. But having outdoor farm cats like we do, they are prone getting killed by pick up trucks, tractors, combines, coyotes, stray dogs...etc. Would it be that bad if my new cat did wind up getting pregnant and then we'd have a new litter of kittens? I know we could find homes for the kittens we don't want to keep. My mom would want one, my mother in law, neighbors, other people wanting mousers, etc. A friend said if I don't get her spayed we'll have these randy tomcats prowling everywhere but we live out in the middle of nowhere so I don't see how cats are going to just start arriving?

I just can't see going to the trouble of finding these free kittens, shelling out 75 bucks to get these girls fixed and then they don't live very long. 

Thanks again everyone, I love your advice.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

That's easy if you consider all the points.

One) Kittens are useless as mousers. So, while yeah, you'll have an endless supply of cats, they will be small, useless cats, who will be forever running off and getting eaten and drawing hawks who will also be after your chickens.

Two) I have found homes for LOTS of cats. LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of cats. So please, trust me when I say that all those people you mentioned like the _idea_ of a kitten, but when you go to hand them a kitten, they will suddenly have many pressing reasons they can't take it. It's just not the right time, blah, blah, blah.

If you think you're that good at finding homes for kittens, go on and give it a shot - pick up one kitten from somewhere and try to give it away.

And - suppose your mother and neighbor and everyone DO all take one (miracles can occur) that is one litter. In a few months, you'll have another. And then another one after that, and then the kittens who stay will start having litters ....
Quite honestly - if those people really wanted a cat, they'd have one already. Especially if they want a kitten for their barn. These are not hard to find. Heck, my local feed mill keeps a kitten barrel - I kid you not - and when they can catch the myriad kittens born there every year, they put them in the barrel, which holds an old towel, some food and water and has a sign that says FREE on the outside. Odds are, you are getting stuck with those kittens.

Some of your points against spaying are misconceptions, so lets list those too;
3)


cabingrl11 said:


> A friend said if I don't get her spayed we'll have these randy tomcats prowling everywhere but we live out in the middle of nowhere so I don't see how cats are going to just start arriving?


No offense, I had to stop laughing to address this. One of my favorite "You live so far out in the boonies" jokes finishes "... you need your own tomcat to have kittens."
It's a joke because there are places in rural Alaska that are not that far out. You are not that far from me, and trust me, you are _not_ that far out.
It takes me and a cat both about an hour to walk 4 miles. A cat can smell a cat in heat, if the wind is right, for about the same distance. There are WAY more cats than you think there are within 4 miles of your house, I promise. And plenty of them can and will show up. And spray on stuff :yuck:

4)


cabingrl11 said:


> But having outdoor farm cats like we do, they are prone getting killed by pick up trucks, tractors, combines, coyotes, stray dogs...etc. ...I just can't see going to the trouble of finding these free kittens, shelling out 75 bucks to get these girls fixed and then they don't live very long


Darlin, cat's I've got, and I live out in the boonies on a farm too, and my cats are all fixed. I'll have been here 4 years this spring, during which time I have never kept less than a dozen cats, currently I've got 17 (people like to dump them here, so I always have kittens to give away) and in that time, I have lost exactly 3, none of whom were yet fixed. I've no doubt them not being fixed was a factor, because I get them fixed as quick as I can, and my oldest barn cat is 14. Karma Cat, who supervises everything on the farm, will be 8 in June. The two "young" barn cats are a pair of spayed girls, 3 years old. We have more, obviously, but those are some of our permanent residents who live outside, although admittedly, the 14 yo made himself a housecat this winter, to my relief.

Fixed cats aren't as territorial, which means they don't run each other off to the outskirts of the farm - where they can be hit by combines or picked off by coyotes. 
Fixed cats don't go looking for love, or hunting up out of the way places to have kittens - like out in a field where they can be hit with a combine or picked off by a coyote. They stay close the the barns and the mice.
Fixed cats don't draw other cats, who might be diseased.

So there are many, many reasons to get them fixed.

I do have to say that some of this is also a management issue. Barn and outside cats don't need to be totally free-range, any more than my chickens do. I have always locked up cats from dusk, when the owls and coyotes start hunting, until a couple of hours into the morning, after the songbirds are all perked up and hard to catch. 
The feedroom works GREAT - it's where the mice are. If you're going to be running the combine and think they'll get under it (and some cats do learn to associate the combine with all the mice it kicks up) just leave them locked in there.

There's no reason for them to be short-lived, mine are generally with me at least a decade and some of them more. Spring Cat was 9 years old when a neighbor with way more mice then I had talked me out of her. That was 4 years ago and last I heard they have her yet.
Spring was spayed when she was just under a year old for $55 - that's about $4.50 a year over her life. That's pretty cheap to keep the same, experienced, seasoned hunter and not have to deal with the nuisance of kittens.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Just the fact that there are thousands upon thousands of cats and kittens killed each year because people won't fix them tells me that you SHOULD spay your cat. Please. You can get a kitten at the drop of a hat. Don't want to pay $75 to spay one? Then get a male and fix him - it's cheaper. But PLEASE do any cat you get a favor and fix them. Please??


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

A farm can quickly be over run with sick cats if they are not neutered (the word neuter technically includes females) and are not taken in regularly for shots and vet care. It's an expensive endeavor. I've seen some really bad situations when people ran out of money. 

Then there's the fact that there are tons of kittens everywhere. If you want more mousers just go get more kittens from other people's farms for free. It will save them being killed, getting ill, or taking up room in a shelter. There is an endless supply of kittens for you to choose from already in existence.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

It really depends on where you live. If everyone fixes their tomcats, there won't be a horde of tomcats coming around. When I moved 'up north' it was hard to find a kitten. This was because it was popular to have your cats fixed. Even farmers have them fixed.

Can you tell when a cat is in heat? Can you confine her during this period?
I live in Michigan and none of our female cats went into their first heat during the winter, about March was the time- so think about that. Don't have experience with the second winter. If you want to wait a while to make sure the cat will live through the summer, then do so, just be prepared to confine your cat. When you take the cat in for shots and wellness exam, ask your vet how soon the cat would probably go into heat for the first time, the signs, and how best to confine her. Ask how much a spay is and how long she would need to be confined after the spay (for her health, she needs to take it easy a few days and not be stressed when she is feeling icky).


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

I also would spay.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

Must really be isolated to your area. I'm in Iowa and no one neuters their cats. If they get too many farmers go on a cat shooting spree and many train their dogs to kill any cat that comes on the property. There's so many cats that pretty much all discounted neuter services have been run in to the ground and given up. If you are very low income (low enough you probably shouldn't have a pet) and live in specific counties you can get low cost neuter through the shelter.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

We lived on an isolated farm (nearest neighbor was about 5 miles away). We found that un-fixed cats had a short lifespan, spayed and neutered ones tended to stay a lot closer to home and were much less likely to get killed. Getting it down early, before the hormones got in, helped tons. We kept ONE intact female for a few years, before we started locking our cats up at night. She'd have a litter a year (we had no intact tom cats). We could place her kittens on farms in the area, they were great mousers. However, when we started locking up the cats at night, it was better to spay her too, we got more cats than we wanted. 

As free farm cats are easy to find, I'd recommend spaying, it'll be a lot more convenient to locate a kitten if you need one than to deal with an intact female cat. If you really want kittens, maybe have one litter and see how it works for you. After that all the people you list will have a kitten and won't so likely need another. 

No, you don't have to spay a farm cat, but in reality, she is more likely to live if she is spayed before she gets hormonal and goes looking for a boyfriend. It is up to you. 

I do suggest you have both of your cats tested for feline leukemia and vaccinated. Farm cats benefit from being protected. A stray tom breeding her is more likely to bring that into your property, as breeding is a common way to spread it.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

Well, I'll be the odd man (girl) out & say none of our barn cats are fixed & none are vaccinated. They go up in population at times, but always even back out. We had almost 20 last summer & now we have 5.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

When we first got barn cats when we rented the farmhouse, we made the decision that is similar to your decision, Wendy. We chose to let them be outside, loose at night and intact. We did not gain much population because of the mortality, mostly predators. It wasn't long before we decided that we were way too attached to our cats to have just barn cats, that they were pets to us. Then we started to protect them at night. Then we had too many and spayed and neutered all but the one cat and eventually her too. 

Since we moved to town, all of our cats are routinely fixed. They are happier house and yard cats and don't roam and get run over or killed by the coyotes that come into town. 

It all depends on whether one is content to let predators and disease keep the numbers down. BTW, when we went to move to town, we knew we'd have to find homes for most of our cats. Since we didn't want to give ill cats to our friends to spread disease, we tested them for feline leukemia. Most of them had it and we put them down. That was very difficult, we were very attached and our kids weren't that old. That is why I recommended testing and vaccination. I wish I'd routinely done that for our barn cats in the first place, though we didn't really have any money at the time. 

You have to make your choices, for me it was just too hard to be losing my cats that way, it became an unacceptable way to keep my numbers down. I understand it, many do it and I'm not going to say that's wrong, as long as the animals are cared for, fed, sheltered and not a nuisance to the neighbors.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

If I took such poor care of any animal I had accepted responsibility for - which is every animal I allow on my place - that I lost 75% of them in a year, I don't think I'd brag on it.
And I sure as heck wouldn't recommend the practice to anyone else.


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## Sumatra (Dec 5, 2013)

Perhaps it's just a personal quirk that I consider an animal's ability to reproduce, a third of it's worth? Especially with something as fragile as a cat, I wouldn't spay/neuter any cat(or dog) that I have around. Same goes for most vaccinations or other popular things done to animals that aren't always necessary.


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

The cost to feed all those kittens will quickly surpass the cost of getting one cat fixed. For the record I am not against not fixing a cat. I have 2 that aren't fixed, but they are same sex and kept inside.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

There is a reason why shelters are overrun with cats and dogs.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> If I took such poor care of any animal I had accepted responsibility for - which is every animal I allow on my place - that I lost 75% of them in a year, I don't think I'd brag on it.
> And I sure as heck wouldn't recommend the practice to anyone else.


The majority of the cats here were strays. A huge majority of them get hit on the road, even though we live on a side road without much traffic. I was not bragging, just saying what we do. I also didn't recommend it to anyone else, just said what we do. 

If you can afford to go spend $50-$80 per cat to have them fixed plus however much more for vaccines, go for it. I like to have a few cats around to keep the mice down. I am not going to spend that amount of money on a cat that will most likely get hit on the road. 

If someone else wants too, then good for them. The cats are not my pets. Most of them I can't even touch. I am not going to try to catch them to do anything to them.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> The cost to feed all those kittens will quickly surpass the cost of getting one cat fixed


I don't feed those kittens, mama does.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

I wish, sometimes, I had recorded my girl when she was in heat. I would just embed that video to every thread like this. 

My neighbor did what you are wanting. Sneezy kittens with goopy eyes, an uptick in coyotes coming round, and of course, the screaming. And the raccoons. Good night, the raccoons.

I don't even understand why people do this. A pair of spayed females fromt he pound will do you wonders. You don't need a revolving door of cats, just a couple who are tame and cared for.

Spayed cats tend to stay home, so aren't wandering around looking for mates and getting eaten.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Every fall we are bombarded with cats that have been dropped off because people will not spay. The shelters are full here.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Otter said:


> If I took such poor care of any animal I had accepted responsibility for - which is every animal I allow on my place - that I lost 75% of them in a year, I don't think I'd brag on it.
> And I sure as heck wouldn't recommend the practice to anyone else.


:goodjob::bow:


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Wendy said:


> The majority of the cats here were strays. A huge majority of them get hit on the road, even though we live on a side road without much traffic. I was not bragging, just saying what we do. I also didn't recommend it to anyone else, just said what we do.
> 
> If you can afford to go spend $50-$80 per cat to have them fixed plus however much more for vaccines, go for it. I like to have a few cats around to keep the mice down. I am not going to spend that amount of money on a cat that will most likely get hit on the road.
> 
> If someone else wants too, then good for them. The cats are not my pets. Most of them I can't even touch. I am not going to try to catch them to do anything to them.


http://www.spayneuterindianapets.com/id88.html

There are plenty of places in Indiana that will help you with the stray cats and spay/neutering the ones you have.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

We live on a dead end road. People drop their unwanted cats and sometimes dogs here quite often. We don't want them, but we fell sorry for the animals so my friend (a vet) spays or neuters them and it still isn't that easy to find homes for them. I think at times friends have avoided me, because they don't want another cat, but feel sorry for both me and the cats!

It is not easy to find good homes for kittens, especially if you have an unending supply. Spay the cat. It's better and cheaper for both the people and cats! There are low cost spay-neuter clinics everywhere.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

A friend of mine also became the drop off place for cats and kittens. She and her husband were spending a fortune getting them fixed and having more dumped off on them. They'd save up money from their SS and do a few at a time. The ones not fixed they kept in the house to make sure they didn't breed. What a nightmare.

In that situation, you need to call them all strays and call the animal shelter. Humane Society would be best. They will have traps to loan you.


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## TenBusyBees (Jun 15, 2011)

Indoor and city cats that you don't want bred, absolutely spay/nueter.... they lack natural population control.

Barn/outdoor cats, well, that's another story... a lot, of course, will depend specifically to your area. But here 2 or 3 years is a l-o-n-g life for them. Between the coyotes, racoons, skunks, owls, and whatever else the population always hovers around 4 to 6 cats, no matter how prolific. 

Dogs on the other hand....yep, I'm a big supporter of "spay or nueter"...city or country. Dogs have better defenses and survival rate plus the strays pack up...bad situation all around. 

Oh. and btw, someone mentioned spending $70-$80 for vaccinations. Ouch! Google low cost vaccines or rabies. Everywhere we haved lived has had a mobile pet clinic that do the vaxes for about $15-$35, depending on which shots you get.... plus they register the rabies shots with your county for you. :thumb:


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

TenBusyBees said:


> Indoor and city cats that you don't want bred, absolutely spay/nueter.... they lack natural population control.
> 
> Barn/outdoor cats, well, that's another story... a lot, of course, will depend specifically to your area. But here 2 or 3 years is a l-o-n-g life for them. Between the coyotes, racoons, skunks, owls, and whatever else the population always hovers around 4 to 6 cats, no matter how prolific.
> 
> ...


One of the biggest reasons they are short lived is because they are not spayed or neutered. The biological urge makes them roam out of the barns at night and puts them at risk. My neutered barn cat is 5 years old and I have foxes, raccoon, owls and bobcat and worse on my property every night.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

FWIW, I was coming up the drive with my kids the other day, on foot. There is neighbor's friendly neutered huge black cat. There is Not Friendly Feral under my car, screaming at me like a cornered wildcat. Took the kids the long way round to avoid him.

I wouldn't want Not Friendly Feral anywhere near my home on the regular. Thank goodness I don't have a bunch of intact female cats roaming round my place to draw him in.


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## preparing (Aug 4, 2011)

You will find two groups at opposite ends of this debate. Fixers and non fixers. I too am in the latter group. Cat dumped here becomes 5 and so it goes. I cant afford to spay them all or feed them. 

I live surrounded by dairy farms. I would never be able to keep up.

The folks bashing you have tender hearts but unless they have the omnipotence of G-d reproduction will continue.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Better to have unfriendly feral cats humanely euthanized rather than to produce oceans of unwanted kittens and die of disease and on the road. Not to mention carrying disease to wanted cats and spread toxoplasmosis which can cause abortions in goats, sheep and humans. Then there is the whole songbird issue...


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Most of the cats here are dumped and strays. I have 17. Do you think I _want_ 17?? The number of kittens and pregnant cats dumped here is insane. With all my cats spayed, I give away kittens every year (I have 5 to give away right now). I have a blog to help give away cats. And I am poor as dirt. But if I allow a domestic animal to stay on my place (and, prior abuse or not, cats are a domestic animal) then it becomes my responsibility.
Period.
End of story.
No excuses. You don't want the responsibility, the animal goes to someone else, even if you have to live-trap it.
Speaking of which, there are programs nearly everywhere that will live trap ferals, get them fixed, and then give them away as barn cats.

Yes, cats get out onto the road. Why does the cat cross the road? To look for love or territory - neither of which are problems when they're fixed. The only cats I've lost to the road _anywhere, ever in 17 years of keeping cats_ have been young males that weren't fixed yet. There is a reason they roam - take it away.

As I have said, my oldest barn cat is 14. That is older than my oldest child. For _fourteen *years*_ this cat has lived in many, many barns and sheds as I've moved about. He is an awesome mouser, and you should see him catch a snake. He finally consented to come inside this winter.
My next oldest is 8. I did lose the 11 yo who was between them to cancer. 
If cats are really so very fragile, that you MUST have a constant influx of kittens - how do I do that? Am I special? 

No, there are simple, responsible solutions to all these problems. Don't want the neighbors desperate, hungry barn-cats coming to your place? Neuter an old tom and keep him. A lifetime of habit will have him sending every stray packing, but since he'll no longer be out and about looking for love he'll stay right there, keeping your barn free of mice AND strays.
Heck, I've got one for adoption right now - I have to cage him to keep him from killing the other cats.

And, as I said, my "young" barn cats are a 3 yo pair of spayed sisters. They stay right there - not out in the road, out in the field, looking for love and territory, no, _right where the mice are_ and do their job. That is the point, right? And they'll do it for the next decade or so.

I have no hungry, desperate mommas killing songbirds. I have no myriad kittens drawing predators - who will come for a sickly kitten and stay to wipe out my chicken coop. I have no randy toms spraying and stinking up the place. I have no crying children carrying in pitiful little bodies from the road. This is a doable thing.

I also have no mice, and am the only farm around here without packrats. Other farms have cats, kept as some folks describe, and they have packrats everywhere.
Know why?
Packrats are really hard to catch. My cats are all old and experienced enough to have learned the trick to it. Do you know how much $$damage packrats can cause? Fixing and vaccinating cats so that they can get old and wise enough to wipe out the nasty little buggers is a cheap investment.

Monetary value? Go back and read again how a neighbor begged - _begged_ - a 9 yo mouser off me. Kittens are worthless, who wants an endless stream of them?


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## PricklyThistle (Feb 6, 2014)

I live in the middle of nowhere too. There were 3 cats that were invited to live here. In the span of 6 months that's become 5. I see more cats lurking on the borders every day. It's amazing how cats will find you if you put out pet food and have a barn or other out-building that attracts mice. Mouse abundance aside, all these cats Do expect me to bring them some food and cry piteously if I won't. 

You could live on the moon with unspayed female cats and end up with tomcats finding you, I thoroughly believe.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> I don't even understand why people do this. A pair of spayed females fromt he pound will do you wonders. You don't need a revolving door of cats, just a couple who are tame and cared for.
> 
> Spayed cats tend to stay home, so aren't wandering around looking for mates and getting eaten.


Mine are hunting when they leave the barn. I see them all the time in the fields stalking mice, etc. My barn is right next to the road. There is no way I can keep them off the road unless I penned them up in a cage. Then of course they would not be doing their job of keeping the mouse population down.

Even if I fixed the 2 that I like, it wouldn't stop strays from coming & people from dumping them. I am not going to spend money on cats that I didn't ask for. If it gets out of hand a bullet would work to get rid of them. 

I think some of you don't realize the difference between a barn cat & a pet. These are not my pets. Most just showed up here. If they want to hang around & kill mice, great. If they want to leave, I don't care. 

I was just answering the original poster on what we do here. I don't care if that's what any of you do. It works for us. If I ever have 100 cats running around, then I may re-consider. Right now they keep their own numbers in check. They don't bother us & we don't bother them. 

Just so you know I do have my dogs spayed.


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## Squeaky McMurdo (Apr 19, 2012)

Unchecked populations of small animals can attract big predators. All the cats that got dumped and reproduced on our old place eventually attracted a mountain lion with cubs. I found her in my garage after a cat hiding in the woodpile and I do believe I soiled myself that morning.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

We don't really have any big predators to worry about.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

preparing said:


> The folks bashing you have tender hearts but unless they have the omnipotence of G-d reproduction will continue.


How does being all knowing have ANYTHING to do with fixing the cats you have on your property???????? I am not God yet I know a non-spayed female will have kittens. I know, it's amazing but I'm good that way.

The reproduction will not continue if they do not have their reproductive parts. But yes, the reproduction will continue if owners are not responsible to their pets and make it so that they CAN'T reproduce.


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## cabingrl11 (Jan 10, 2014)

Wow, I'm sorry that this topic kicked up such a fuss! There are obviously very strong feelings on the subject. 

First of all, free kittens are NOT that easy to come by where I live. For every one posting on Craigslist for free kittens there are 20 "kittens wanted" postings. There are no free-kitten barrels at the feed store. My home and acreage are rural but the town we are closest to is all subdivisions and people who keep pets so most animals are sterilized. 

I want several cats because they end up dead too easily around here as I am quickly finding out. Our two that we just got a month ago (and DID pay to have spayed) are already dead.

To get a cat from any shelter around here will cost us upwards of 150 bucks. I'm surrounded by bleeding hearts who think all animals should live on a feather pillow and be served caviar. I just want some random cats hanging around and if we see them once and a while then great. 

I think what we'll do is leave this new cat unaltered for a WHILE. If we wind up with kittens we'll keep MOST of them and fix them, then spay the mama.

There is also an organization in our state that will deliver sterilized barn cats to you for twenty bucks a cat. 

This was interesting debate, but I don't like how it took an ugly turn. Didn't mean to cause a dispute.

Thanks all.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

Even with neutering we still probably had a 75% mortality rate but that doesn't keep some places for getting huge populations of sick cats. It is really disgusting when it happens. We had stray litters from time to time although we mostly kept a big old male who chased everything off or we'd have had 100s of cats in a couple years. Neighbor across the road was feeding about 300 on donated and cheapest kibble you can get along with scraps without vaccines or neutering and the ones up the road and down the road were having litters of kittens just to entertain their children. The neighbors between us and the road where our driveway splits their properties had 50 the year after they put up their stable and decided to stop putting food out and increase the territory their cat killing dog was allowed to cover. 

The road would just be lined with dead kittens every year. Between that, the coyotes (who have mostly been run off with the new housing division), and the fights with stray cats we didn't name anything until it was 2 years old. By then it was either dead, had been pts for not wanting to pay the vet bills on the repetitious injuries, or learned how to survive without getting the crap beat out of it every few months. When we moved to the other farm there were 5 basically feral cats living in the basement with no one having cleaned up after them in 4 years. We let them outside and after we got the place empty we scraped and hosed it down. All 5 cats met their death by vehicle or predator in the first year. It doesn't take something the size of a mountain lion. I watched a cat get killed by a large raccoon that was not in the least afraid of me so I wasn't sticking my hand in there to recover the cat. We had a fishercat travel through the area and do a ton of damage to smaller animals. There are a few packs of wild dogs of various sizes. I actually lost a bunch of standard chickens, young cats, and quail in cages to a stupid little min pin.

Since the old territorial male at my mom's farm died of a heart condition we've been rehoming every last cat that sets foot on the place and started doing the same for the farm we were on until we had some family issues and moved in town. Cats are nowhere near as good of mousers as some poison bait (all forms of traps we could come up with didn't catch a single rat) and I was losing rabbit kits not just to rodents but to the cats that were supposed to be killing the rodents. My mom has one neutered male cat and everything else is rehomed if possible, killed, or goes for a ride since shelters charge you $100 to turn over a cat no matter the situation and that county has no low cost neuter program.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

cabingrl11 said:


> W
> *I think what we'll do is leave this new cat unaltered for a WHILE. If we wind up with kittens we'll keep MOST of them and fix them, then spay the mama.*
> 
> There is also an organization in our state that will deliver sterilized barn cats to you for twenty bucks a cat.
> ...


That is a better solution than not fixing at all. Then if you do need more cats you can always get one of those 20.00 ones. If they deliver for 20.00 there must be enough extra cats to go around.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

akane said:


> Since the old territorial male at my mom's farm died of a heart condition we've been rehoming every last cat that sets foot on the place and started doing the same for the farm we were on until we had some family issues and moved in town. Cats are nowhere near as good of mousers as some poison bait (all forms of traps we could come up with didn't catch a single rat) and I was losing rabbit kits not just to rodents but to the cats that were supposed to be killing the rodents. My mom has one neutered male cat and everything else is rehomed if possible, killed, or goes for a ride since shelters charge you $100 to turn over a cat no matter the situation and that county has no low cost neuter program.


Please don't take the cats "for a ride". I don't want them either. You are just making problems for others and most states have laws about abandoning animals with big fines attached.

If you are going to poison rodents, keep in mind that most poisons will not only kill the mouse/rat but will also poison whatever eats the dead or dying rodent. There are not many safe ways to poison rodents without putting your wanted animals at risk. Some types of mice will also "stockpile" the treated feed and you have no control over where they put it.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

akane, please clarify taken for a ride. Is that the parental term for humanely euthanized or something else?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Wendy, I don't think the difference in opinion come from some seeing barn cats as having a job vs those that see them as pets. 

Not spaying or neutering makes it all but impossible to prevent late in the year kittens, that generally don't survive and an uncontrolled cat population is often resolved by distemper, which isn't really fair to animals that we are ultimately responsible for.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

I think they way cat threads invariably devolve as folks pipe in to justify anything from neglect to downright cruelty is the #1 reason to spay cats. Cats are small, fragile and plentiful and so people treat them in ways they'd be very ashamed to treat anything else. 

It's not about working vs pets. It's about having respect for an animal that does a job for you. 

And, quite honestly, it's about humanity. I've been on this forum for a while and most folks know I'm poor as dirt and raise food to stay off foodstamps. But I've never been and never will be so poor as some here, not if I didn't have a penny.

Folks also know that I'm not Christian. Not even a little. And yet, the words that come first to my mind anyway are these;
Proverbs, 12:10 _The righteous man cares for the needs of his beast, but even the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel._

And even more than that, this:
From Matthew 25 _ For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink ... I was sick, and you cared for me ... When Lord? ...Even as you do unto the least, so you do unto me_

What could possibly be more "the least", than an abandoned cat, already betrayed by it's caretakers once? So no, the argument that a person didn't go looking for it doesn't hold much water with me. It is there, it is a domestic animal, dependent on humans and I am the human getting the benefit of it's being there. But more than that, it is the least, the most persecuted of innocents. How could I not do all that I can?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Otter said:


> I think they way cat threads invariably devolve as folks pipe in to justify anything from neglect to downright cruelty is the #1 reason to spay cats. Cats are small, fragile and plentiful and so people treat them in ways they'd be very ashamed to treat anything else.
> 
> It's not about working vs pets. It's about having respect for an animal that does a job for you.
> 
> ...


This. Most definitely this. I love this post. And it is so true. I wish I could "like" it more than once.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> It is there, it is a domestic animal


Domestic to me means tame. These are not tame & not pets. I am not going to spay/neuter for the reasons I already stated. They are welcome to hang out & welcome to leave. 

I'm pretty sure the quote from Matthew is about feeding & helping fellow humans. As for the other scripture reference, I care for all of my animals. Taking our dog in to be spayed tomorrow actually. Just spend $500 on vet bills for the goats. I did not however go looking for the cats. They showed up here. If they leave I will put out poison for the mice. Makes me no difference. I really doubt you would like spending close to $100 on a cat that would most likely be killed before a year was up. I don't have that kind of money to throw around. I doubt if someone continually kept throwing cats in your yard, let's say 5 per week, that you would spend all of your money getting them fixed & feeding them. 

Again, I was just telling the original poster what we do because I knew she would get flack for even mentioning not fixing her cat. 

It's not a one size fits all kind of thing. Kind of like breeders that require you to get the animal fixed. It's ok for them to breed, but not someone else.


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## HTG_zoo (Apr 18, 2011)

My cats aren't all neutered, and they aren't all good mousers either. They do stay indoors with the exception of an escape artist, but he runs off the neighbor's intact tom to likes to spray my bedroom window. The reproductive status of the girls doesn't seem to deter the neighbor's tom.

Our neighbors also don't neuter their outside cats. A few are, but not all of them. They do roam, coming over here trying to get in our house after our girls, fighting with our tom, pooping in our garden etc.

We aren't overrun with cats even though there are at least 3 houses on this 2 miles of road keeping intact cats. We also rarely see cats as roadkill. We do have predators, but they were here before people and cats lived here so it's hard to tell how cats impact them. We have few song birds and even fewer reptiles and amphibians. Many studies link cats to declines in these species. We have many many rodents, my cats aren't very intent on killing them all, nor are the neighbors'.

My sister doesn't neuter all of her barn cats either. She has litters yearly and they mostly don't last. Her neighbors like to catch the neatest cats and sell them on Craiglsist.

My intact cats are sometimes annoying in the house. My sister's intact cats are sometimes annoying outdoors. They carry one when in heat, fight for dominance. They spray and sometimes urinate in areas we don't want them too. They make kittens and not all of them are wanted by other people. I sell most of mine, give the plainer ones away, have only been 'stuck' with 2 that I ended up keeping. Selling them entails record keeping, giving them their shots, taking pictures, posting ads and meeting people. I imagine that giving them away would be similar (I have given some of mine away too). Colonies of cats sometimes get sick and require antibiotics or other medical care. The odds of them needing care goes up as you gather more cats together and they have more stressors. Fighting for territory, reproducing, and raising litters are stressors that intact cats experience much more often then neutered cats. If there are kittens, some of them will die. This is especially hard on kittens. Many in our society don't like people allowing their animals to breed, especially their cats. Some of these people are very outspoken and judgmental. If any of these things are unacceptable to you, then neuter your cats. If you can live with these things, carry on as planned.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/domestic+animal
*domestic animal*


noun an animal, as the horse or cat, that has been tamed and kept by humans as a work animal, food source, or pet, especially a member of those species that have, through selective breeding, become notably different from their wild ancestors. 






Wendy said:


> I really doubt you would like spending close to $100 on a cat that would most likely be killed before a year was up. I don't have that kind of money to throw around. I doubt if someone continually kept throwing cats in your yard, let's say 5 per week, that you would spend all of your money getting them fixed & feeding them.


You would be wrong.
I live behind a junkyard, and folks dump cats here _endlessly_. There are no shelters, and one vet in 3 counties that does spaying and neutering. I save up all year, every year, to do what we here call The Annual Spay Round-up. It's coming up in fact, I've got one done, 2 more the 18th, and then 5 on the 20th.
You can read about it on my blog - this thread actually inspired me to write a post about the keeping of barn cats. http://catsofarrowsflight.blogspot.com/

I also do emergency spays year round as quick as I can get an appt, which here takes 4-6 weeks. 
I adopt out cats for $50, technically, but usually it's free. Or I send it to your vet so the cat can be spayed there. That oft-waved adoption fee puts me deep in the hole.

And I promise that I have less money to spare than pretty much anyone here. You have to be truly, seriously poor to have less money than me.

So why do I do it? _My_ religion tells me to help the less fortunate (and without a book that I can interpret in the way that makes me most comfortable) and here in the US, about all that's less fortunate than I am is stray cats. So I don't smoke, I don't drink, I don't have cable, I work really, really hard and I put about 10% of my meager income towards helping the less fortunate - that 10% is free work for folks who really, really need help, teaching and volunteering, and taking care of the cats tossed in my yard, along with the occasional dog.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Thank you Otter!

What makes me very angry is that over 90% of the cats and kittens dumped here are very obviously someone's pet. Some come right up to you purring, some are afraid at first but once you can touch them they are fine. We have seen them with really bad road rash-someone couldn't even stop the car to dump them. At least one of the humane societies here has night drop off kennels so you can leave animals there.

The type of people that treat animals this way probably don't treat people much better.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

âThe greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.â &#8213; Mahatma Gandhi

This thread makes me sad.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

You assume I am treating the cats bad. I am not. They have shelter in the barn & I do put out a small amount of food each day. None of them are sickly, if they were I would take care of it.

You can't assume just because a cat is not fixed that they are somehow sick or not cared for. I have seen those conditions at an elderly guy's place. He had probably 100 plus cats. All inbred, runny eyes, coughing, nasty looking cats. He would feed them all everyday, but they were obviously sick. The cats in my barn are not. 



> So I don't smoke, I don't drink, I don't have cable, I work really, really hard


So do I. If you want to spend your spare money feeding & fixing cats that are dumped, good for you. Too bad there aren't more people like you. I on the other hand can't afford to do so.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

If you don't vaccinate for rabies you're putting every person and animal that comes into contact with any of your cats at risk.


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## TenBusyBees (Jun 15, 2011)

Neglect? Cruelity? Really? (and how does not spaying/nuetering equate to not keeping up with vaxes or unhealthy?)

Just because you have a lot of strays and are over run with cats doesn't mean everyone else is. As I mentioned earlier choosing to spay is going to depend on where you live and your situation.

Cats are hard to come by here....exactly ZERO stray cats have shown up in all the years we have lived here. It took almost two years to find our first cat (the animal shelter here requires that the animal be strictly indoors as part of the adoption). When I mentioned to the farmer we were getting the cat from that she wasn't quite old enough to fix, he just laughed and told us to save our money. I had no idea what he meant but understand now.


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## cabingrl11 (Jan 10, 2014)

Look folks, when I posted the original question on here what I was looking for was open, honest advice and perspectives from both sides. That is exactly what I got so thank you for all the input that this thread has received. I have learned a lot about the pros and cons of fix vs. not fix. Most of all I have learned not to say the word cat.  All the info shared here will be taken into consideration as I think about what route we will take. As my grandpa used to say, God rest his soul, "I'll go smoke it over". Ha ha. 

Now...GROUP HUG!!!!:grouphug:


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

cabingrl11 said:


> Look folks, when I posted the original question on here what I was looking for was open, honest advice and perspectives from both sides. That is exactly what I got so thank you for all the input that this thread has received. I have learned a lot about the pros and cons of fix vs. not fix. Most of all I have learned not to say the word cat.  All the info shared here will be taken into consideration as I think about what route we will take. As my grandpa used to say, God rest his soul, "I'll go smoke it over". Ha ha.
> 
> Now...GROUP HUG!!!!:grouphug:


When we post on a thread, the information and opinions are not just read by the original poster but by many people. This thread is giving people on both sides something to think about and information. It's not even particularly acrimonious so I don't think you need to feel like a peacemaker.


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## karenp (Jun 7, 2013)

Those of you that don't vaccinate, aren't you worried about rabies? We have an endemic rabies problem around here, everything around here gets vaccinated for rabies.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

I'm not. To get them a rabies vaccine would cost me around $40 per cat. The vet will not give a rabies vaccine without seeing them in the office. Then I'd have to catch them first which wouldn't be easy. I am getting our indoor Chihuahua fixed today. It's going to be $150 to have her spayed & get her rabies shot. Cats are around the same price.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Cabingrl11, often, when a person posts a thread, Only the first couple of responses are directed at them, and then people get to talking. And, like Lisa said, for every person that asks a question, there are a bunch more people looking at the answer instead of posting the same questions themselves.  Don't worry about it.

If anyone wants to persist in believing the fairy tale that I do this because of all the money I have just lying around, and that I _love_ to clean up other folks messes, I have this bridge to sell, cheap ...

I don't, I do it because it's right. Also, I won't say I believe something without living it.

TenBusyBees, the act of not neutering in and of itself is not cruelty or neglect. Although it's neglectful to the folks asking to not let them know what they're in for, same as if they ask about keeping a ram, buck or bull - intact animals have their own set of problems, regardless of species.
Not neutering and brushing it off by letting roads, predators and disease keep your population in check is neglect, plain and simple.
Usually threads here on this sub-forum don't devolve all the way to cruelty, but don't post about cats or do a search for those posts on the other sub-forums, not unless you want to be sick.

TenBusyBees, you must live in the NorthEast. There ARE places (although very, very few)where barn cats are hard to find because people spay as a matter of course. You'll find that in those areas, you find a lot less neglect and cruelty. I think that having to search a bit for a barn cat is not a bad trade off for that. But if you ever need to find a barn cat, get in touch with me. I have yet to see the place in the US where you can't drive an hour or less and find free cats. And even in Connecticut, which has very, very few strays, an ad in the paper "Wanted, free cats for barn, will be fed and cared for, green barn on XYZ road" will have folks dropping off cats at that barn for _years_.

And while low cost spay and neuter clinics can be hard to find, they're often there. 
I doubt there's a county in the US that doesn't have at least one rabies clinic a year, and a google search or 3 phone calls or less will find it (First, call animal control, then call a local rescue group, then try the county health dept - one of those will give you the info about rabies clinics) At a rabies clinic, the shot and tag will cost from 10 to $15
For example;
http://www.indypitcrew.org/pages/low-cost-pet-care
http://www.petrefugeabcclinic.com/services.html
http://www.harrisoncountyhealth.com/

Five-in-one vaccines are available at most feed stores for about $7 to 10 and there is a sticky at the top of this very forum about wormers.  I've been poor for a while, I'm good at it by now, lol.


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## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

There's lots of rescues with desexed barn cats for FREE. Big one in VA. You could just keep getting trouble free cats from them.
I had an intact female, disgusting animal and so messed up in the head when she was in heat. I'm amazed she didn't think the cars were toms, she was that stupid....And the noise! The screaming, howling, fighting, then she got sick from these nasty other unfixed toms. Ugh. 
Keep feed closed off and you won't have as many mice.


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## cabingrl11 (Jan 10, 2014)

I'm white trash and I don't even know what acrimonious means.  I _do_ know that I don't like stirring up crap and it felt a little like that is what I did. But if ya'll want to keep the discussion going I understand.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Kudos to Otter for what you do! 

I have 5 cats, all dump offs as kittens, here on our place and they range from the kitten I just got spayed to the oldest who is 9 this year. I have lost one cat over the years to the road and have given away a few. We get them dumped here regularly too (along with dogs) and we get them basic shots and spayed or neutered. Our Vet knows us well and they take pity on us. I agree with everyone that getting them neutered and keeping them safe at night will keep the ones you have with you for a long time. If you just look over the posts you will see a definite trend that the ones who do routine care and spay have a steady cat population and those who don't have a lot of losses.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

It's always amazed me how the "my cats disappear too quickly" crowd thinks that all the missing cats get killed. Take a ride down any country dirt road at night and there are cats everywhere. Cats roam plain and simple and are the most destructive of all invasive species to wildlife. WI had the best plan ever, a cat hunting season but unfortunately it got stopped. No sense of responsibility at all by their owners who call them just barn cats.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Patchouli all I do is exactly what you do, thank you as well!
I can't do a lot, but I do all that I can on my tiny corner and try to help others find the resources they need to do it there, and try to correct some myths.

I've said it here and in PM, if anyone needs help finding affordable care for their dumpees, or needs barn cats, get in touch. I might not be able to help everyone, but after all this time, I'm very good at looking and generally I turn something up.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I'm awfully glad that our local rescue organization gives out coupons for low cost spays and neuters for anyone that takes in a stray. They got our volunteer barn cat neutered for free for us. Our local vet gives them a discount too. Strangely, there isn't a huge population of ferals in this area, for which I am thankful.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

If someone doesn't care enough to catch and make sure their animals have rabies shots (which will protect the "important" animals and their family) which can be free to very reasonable at a clinic, chances are they aren't going to catch them to have them spayed/neutered even it's free or cheap.


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## mrs whodunit (Feb 3, 2012)

I only fix male cats as I can do that myself. So I fix all the male cats that show up.

Its way to expensive to haul off a female cat to the vet.

Following that plan we have never had to many cats.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

mrs whodunit said:


> I only fix male cats as I can do that myself. So I fix all the male cats that show up.
> 
> Its way to expensive to haul off a female cat to the vet.
> 
> Following that plan we have never had to many cats.


Unless you are a vet or have training AND access to the appropriate drugs, neutering cats as a DIY is cruel and nothing to brag about. 

I don't think cats would be treated so badly if they were something that cost a lot of money. Just because they are often free, it doesn't mean they should be treated as throwaways. They hurt the same as an animal you pay a substantial amount of money for and should be treated as well.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> Unless you are a vet or have training AND access to the appropriate drugs, neutering cats as a DIY is cruel and nothing to brag about.


Just wondering why neutering a male cat is anymore cruel than neutering any other male animal?? Most calves & hogs are just held down & the sack is cut & the testicles pulled out. My goats get a band put around theirs. No pain meds are given when this is done. I have watched the vet do it that way with bull calves & also hogs. 

I often wonder why doing the same thing to a cat or dog is considered worse than if it is a goat, bull, hog, or sheep. All animals feel pain, it doesn't matter what they are, yet the practice of castrating with no meds is seen as ok on large animals. I'm sure they feel it just as much as a dog or cat would.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Wendy said:


> Just wondering why neutering a male cat is anymore cruel than neutering any other male animal?? Most calves & hogs are just held down & the sack is cut & the testicles pulled out. My goats get a band put around theirs. No pain meds are given when this is done. I have watched the vet do it that way with bull calves & also hogs.
> 
> I often wonder why doing the same thing to a cat or dog is considered worse than if it is a goat, bull, hog, or sheep. All animals feel pain, it doesn't matter what they are, yet the practice of castrating with no meds is seen as ok on large animals. I'm sure they feel it just as much as a dog or cat would.



Last post here:
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/working-companion-animals/112978-banding-cat-2.html


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

No one mentioned that they used a band. They could mean cutting the sac & pulling the testicles out like you do on a baby pig. How would that be any different??


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Wendy said:


> No one mentioned that they used a band. They could mean cutting the sac & pulling the testicles out like you do on a baby pig. How would that be any different??



Mrs Whodunit said on the other thread that I provided the link to, that she banded her male cats.



mrs whodunit said:


> Its the way I do all of our male cats no matter how wild.
> 
> I wrap the cat in a heavy cotton bath mat and put between my legs while kneeling on the floor and put on the band. With the highly wild cat once I caught him I put him in a small box and stuffed as many rags as possible around him. I then fastened the box shut, cut a whole in the box where I needed to be and banded him.
> 
> Never bitten of scratched.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

Sorry, I didn't read that post. I have heard people say they cut them like you would a hog. Not something I would try though.


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## Melesine (Jan 17, 2012)

Otter said:


> I think they way cat threads invariably devolve as folks pipe in to justify anything from neglect to downright cruelty is the #1 reason to spay cats. Cats are small, fragile and plentiful and so people treat them in ways they'd be very ashamed to treat anything else.
> 
> It's not about working vs pets. It's about having respect for an animal that does a job for you.
> 
> ...


You said it better than I ever could have. I'm just speechless at the utter callousness of some of the posts here. I've had barn cats myself, I don't have any problem with cats having jobs and I have had unspayed female dogs for years with no pregnancies. But man, this thread is the perfect example of why I never will give an animal to someone I don't know personally. The complete nonchalance about the death of animals that people expect to work for them is just. Well there are no words.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

TY


Melesine said:


> The complete nonchalance about the death of animals that people expect to work for them is just. Well there are no words.


Sadly, human nature doesn't change, only society and what is considered acceptable. The fuedal system collapsed when that became the mindset of too many of the lords of the land towards their peasants.

Ever see the movie Little Orphan Annie? I love that movie, but really think about it for a second, when the "parents" come to reclaim Annie; "Well, money was tight and we had to move, so we really had no choice but to drop her at the orphanage" and everybody's like, _oh, well, ok, whaddayagonnado... _
If it was still socially acceptable to treat human being like stray cats or drop children off at the kiddie pound, people still would.

But I have high hopes that society will continue to evolve and we will continue to grow kinder to those dependent on us.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> If it was still socially acceptable to treat human being like stray cats or drop children off at the kiddie pound, people still would


Actually, a lot of people tend to care more for animals than they do humans. A lot of kids get treated far worse than a stray cat, yet not a lot is done about it. Babies can be dropped off at a hospital with no questions asked. It is still done, all the time. I don't see too many people crying out to help the children, but I see ad after ad after ad about animal abuse.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Wendy said:


> Actually, a lot of people tend to care more for animals than they do humans. A lot of kids get treated far worse than a stray cat, yet not a lot is done about it. Babies can be dropped off at a hospital with no questions asked. It is still done, all the time. I don't see too many people crying out to help the children, but I see ad after ad after ad about animal abuse.


Babies can be dropped off at a hospitals, fire and police stations ("Safe Haven") with no questions asked so that they aren't dropped in dumpsters or in toilets or on street corners. 
I have no idea where you're looking that you don't see people crying out to help the children but helping animals and helping children are not mutually exclusive.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

What I'm saying is I see more people worrying about the welfare of a stray cat than I do a child in need. Maybe that's why I put more effort in helping children than I do the stray cats that show up.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Wendy said:


> What I'm saying is I see more people worrying about the welfare of a stray cat than I do a child in need. Maybe that's why I put more effort in helping children than I do the stray cats that show up.


Where exactly do you see that? Here on the Working and Companion Animals board? I wouldn't really expect to see any threads about child welfare here though. Maybe on Countryside Families? Education?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

The argument that people care more about animals than kids is a tired one. Many of us that feel cats shouldn't breed indiscriminately also do many things for children and the less fortunate in our communities as well. 

My kids were raised to know that our livestock and pets were dependent on us for care and I feel that has shaped them to be compassionate and empathetic adults. One son volunteers with the AIDS and suicide prevention hotlines, my daughter rehabs and rehomes pet as well as volunteering her time with inner city kids and has spearheaded many fundraisers. My youngest spends hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars of his own money to help young boys from fatherless homes. I spend a great deal of my personal time helping a family of very high risk kids as well as working with various therapeutic riding groups. 

I guess my point is that people who respect animals often have a much greater respect and compassion for humans.


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## cabingrl11 (Jan 10, 2014)

To update everyone, I spoke to the lady from the MO barn cat organization yesterday. She is dropping off 4 cats next week for us to begin acclimating. They are already sterilized and vaccinated.


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## cabingrl11 (Jan 10, 2014)

I don't think that Wendy was saying people that care about animals don't care about kids. I think she would agree that the people who are compassionate about animals are indeed compassionate across the board. I think maybe she was saying that there are some who consider the welfare of humans and animals as _equal_. 

While I would strongly agree that animals are God's creatures, and I would not intentionally be cruel or inhumane to one, I do not value their lives as much as humans. Pictures of mountains of thousands of dead bodies being shoveled into holes during the Holocaust breaks my heart far greater than newscasts of dogs being shot in the streets of Sochi for the Olympics. Both are very sad and very horrible but I do not consider all the lives of all living things to be equal. I THINK that is what Wendy was saying as well. Not sure.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

Yep, that's it.

I also have never said I was against government programs. I am all for a hand-up, not a hand-out. I have a probelm with people that think they are owed anything. 



> public schools,


My kids ae in public school 

I just want to say that any time there is a post about spaying or neutering, everyone gets all bent out of shape. We do what works for us. If you don't like it, that's your right. You don't have to like it. That does not mean I do not care for my animals. If it did I wouldn't have a $500 vet bill right now. I have certain priorities & getting my wild barn cats spayed or neutered is not on that list. Someday that may change, but for now, it is what it is.

In reference to the kids, I see a lot of kids that should be taken from their homes because they are neglected. I don't get to make that choice. The kids don't get to make that choice, they don't get to choose their parents. The stray cats chose to come here to live. If they don't like it, they are free to move on. That's the difference.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

cabingrl11 said:


> I don't think that Wendy was saying people that care about animals don't care about kids.


Actually, that's exactly what she said. 
Three times. 



Wendy said:


> Actually, a lot of people tend to care more for animals than they do humans.





Wendy said:


> I don't see too many people crying out to help the children, but I see ad after ad after ad about animal abuse.





Wendy said:


> What I'm saying is I see more people worrying about the welfare of a stray cat than I do a child in need.


And the strong implication is how dare we callous people waste our time caring for animals when there are kids in need.
As if the 2 things were mutually exclusive.
As if showing our children that one should always take care of all those who depend on you don't make them better adults - caring for not only our own children, but the children those children will raise.

It is not only blatantly untrue but also highly offensive


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

Actually, I never said you were wasting your time. In fact I actually said this: 



> If you want to spend your spare money feeding & fixing cats that are dumped, good for you. Too bad there aren't more people like you.


I am all for helping whatever is in need. What I feel is something in need is different than what others feel. Thus the reason I don't spend $$ on the stray cats. I would rather send that money to feed a child somewhere. Doesn't make me better & you fixing all your cats doesn't make you any better. We are free to choose to spend our money on what we want. Because I don't spend it fixing the cats that makes me a bad person according to some.


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## cabingrl11 (Jan 10, 2014)

I guess I am of mixed opinion about animals because I cry my eyes out when my pet dog dies but I have no trouble shooting a deer through the heart or grilling up a steak.

As far as taking care of my animals, I do the best I can with my time and money. I take good care of my free range hens. I think they are clean, happy, healthy girls. I will be kind to these cats coming my way. I don't over feed my goldfish.  But it stops there. I will shoot a possum if it's in my yard. I will step on a spider if it's in my house. Sometimes when I am mowing grass down by the lake I run over a frog. There are waaaay too many mice in my fields they get sucked up under the combine and their baby mice die of starvation or freeze to death in the cold but I can't trap them and get them spayed.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

cabingrl11 said:


> I guess I am of mixed opinion about animals because I cry my eyes out when my pet dog dies but I have no trouble shooting a deer through the heart or grilling up a steak.
> 
> As far as taking care of my animals, I do the best I can with my time and money. I take good care of my free range hens. I think they are clean, happy, healthy girls. I will be kind to these cats coming my way. I don't over feed my goldfish.  But it stops there. I will shoot a possum if it's in my yard. I will step on a spider if it's in my house. Sometimes when I am mowing grass down by the lake I run over a frog. There are waaaay too many mice in my fields they get sucked up under the combine and their baby mice die of starvation or freeze to death in the cold but I can't trap them and get them spayed.


There is a huge difference between domesticated animals (cats, dogs, goldfish) and wild animals (mice, deer, and opossums) correct? 

We have the responsibility to properly care for our domesticated animals, in my opinion, that's ALL of our domesticated animals, not just the "important" ones.


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## cabingrl11 (Jan 10, 2014)

I think that the domesticated line can get a little blurry when it comes to cats. I think can vary from person to person, region to region. When we were in Mexico they ran wild in the streets like vermin and jumped on the tables in restaurants. People kicked them in the streets like trash. Here is the states, I know of people who keep them strictly indoors and have them sleep in their beds and throw them birthday parties. Tricky subject.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

cabingrl11 said:


> I think that the domesticated line can get a little blurry when it comes to cats. I think can vary from person to person, region to region. When we were in Mexico they ran wild in the streets like vermin and jumped on the tables in restaurants. People kicked them in the streets like trash. Here is the states, I know of people who keep them strictly indoors and have them sleep in their beds and throw them birthday parties. Tricky subject.


Not blurry at all. Cats are a domesticated species and remain a domesticated species regardless of whether they run wild like vermin. Which is kind of the point of people's opposition to having unneutered cats.:doh:
They are not an idigenous species and do in fact cause harm to the populations of indigenous wild species like birds.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

"Since cats were cult animals in ancient Egypt, they were commonly believed to have been domesticated there, but there may have been instances of domestication as early as the Neolithic from around 9500 years ago (7500 BC)."

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat

Since the vast majority of us are from North America, specifically the US and Canada, we can safely assume that the cats in question _are_ domesticated.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

Domesticated to me means an animal that is tame that I can interact with & enjoy. I am really not interested in what the official definition is.

No different than the rabbits I raise. I do not make pets of them because they are destined to be eaten. I feed them & water them & that's it. I handle them when I move them from mama's cage to the feed out pen. After that they are not handled until they are butchered. If an animal is in pain, I would put it down. I do not believe in letting an animal suffer. However, the cats in the barn are not suffering that I can see. They are fat & healthy & do not look sick at all. If they did, I'd do somethign about it. Not getting them vaccinated or fixed doesn't mean they are neglected. If that were the case there are an awful lot of human kids that are not vaccinated. Are they being neglected? It is up to the individual to make that decision. There are a lot of things that others do that I disagree with, but unless it affects me directly, it's not my business.


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

I wouldn't ever begin to try to dictate to someone else how to treat their animals, pets or livestock. I know that for us, spaying just makes more sense. We had a couple of intact tom cats in the barn when we first had the house built and moved in. Those two tom cats tore each other up mercilessly. They were so bitten/clawed to pieces by each other, we had to put them down. It was disgustingly hideous to see the type of wounds they'd inflict on each other. I then had a stray female give birth to 3 little tom kittens, all long haired, one snow white, one gray and white and one orange and white, in our wood pile 8 years ago. I handled the kittens as often as I could when the mother was away, and when they got old enough to give away, they were perfectly tame. Mom cat disappeared shortly thereafter. I gave one kitten (the white one) to my son's family, and I kept two. I had my two neutered. The orange and white one, "Gump", was attacked by my neighbors golden retriever mix and killed. The Grey and white one, Jack, I still have to this day (best house cat ever. He cries at the door to go out instead of using a litter box).A friend gave me two brothers (orange) kittens for the barn, last July, and this time, we had them neutered. Frick and Frack get along great and are fantastic mousers. Last fall, a little long-haired, black and white female kitty staggered her way to the side of the road in front of our farmhouse, terribly wounded by an attack from something. I took her to the vet and slowly nursed her back to health. Last month, a white and gray spotted female kitty showed up on our doorstep, scared and hungry. She's been here ever since. Along with these two kitties, some totally feral tom-cats showed up, fighting and terrorizing everyone. They have pus-filled wounds, injured paws, gaping eye sockets, etc. Finally, after being awakened one too many times by cats fighting on the deck, hubby took care of them. Just today, I've taken the black and white kitty in to be spayed, and next week, I'll take the white and gray one in, as I suppose she'll end up staying with us permanently. So, that's 2 barn cats, 2 indoor cats, and a kitty who likes to stay on the deck. (the white and gray one is afraid to come in the house). That's enough for us. I do worry that one of those nasty tom cats managed to get the older white and gray kitten on the deck pregnant before we managed to locate and dispatch them. 
Here in our area of southern Ohio, the cat rescues are mostly full, and none of the pounds take cats, just dogs. 
If you know you can find homes for the kittens, and you can be responsible about how many litters your cat has and are willing to listen to the yowling of a cat in estrus, then you have that right to keep your cat intact. For us, its just not worth the hassle as there are so many cats, even out here in the sticks, that seem to make their way to our farm, that I'm at cat saturation!


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

We've got some wild cats around here that I'd like to see someone put a band on. Of course they are often called Cougars and Bob Cats!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Molly Mckee said:


> We've got some wild cats around here that I'd like to see someone put a band on. Of course they are often called Cougars and Bob Cats!


Cougars and Bob Cats are never domesticated feral cats. House cats are domesticated and have been for millennium.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

cabingirl11 - so glad you found a great alternative to the expense of fixing your cats and being a home for cats that need one! I hope they work out well for you.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> House cats are domesticated and have been for millennium


And my cats have never seen the inside of a house!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Wendy said:


> Domesticated to me means an animal that is tame that I can interact with & enjoy. I am really not interested in what the official definition is.
> 
> No different than the rabbits I raise. I do not make pets of them because they are destined to be eaten. I feed them & water them & that's it. I handle them when I move them from mama's cage to the feed out pen. After that they are not handled until they are butchered. If an animal is in pain, I would put it down. I do not believe in letting an animal suffer. However, the cats in the barn are not suffering that I can see. They are fat & healthy & do not look sick at all. If they did, I'd do somethign about it. Not getting them vaccinated or fixed doesn't mean they are neglected. If that were the case there are an awful lot of human kids that are not vaccinated. Are they being neglected? It is up to the individual to make that decision. There are a lot of things that others do that I disagree with, but unless it affects me directly, it's not my business.


Since you brought it up (again) yes, I feel that unvaccinated children are neglected. Just as domesticated animals that have multiple litters per year are neglected. 

Not giving all animals a rabies vaccination is totally and completely irresponsible. I would never chance being "patient zero" in a rabies pandemic. I don't think telling the "powers that be" that they aren't your cats while they're living in your barn will get you very far.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Wendy said:


> And my cats have never seen the inside of a house!


I'm sorry I should have been more clear, house cat is a term that differentiates a domestic cat (house cat, tabby cat, pet cat) from a feral one (cougar, bob cat, lynx) I hope that helps.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> I'm sorry I should have been more clear, house cat is a term that differentiates a domestic cat (house cat, tabby cat, pet cat) from a feral one (cougar, bob cat, lynx) I hope that helps.


I know what you meant, i was just trying to lighten the mood. 

As far as rabies, I have lived here my whole life & have never seen a case of rabies or heard of any from anyone nearby. Not saying it isn't around, but I have no personal experience with it. That is the only vaccine I give my dogs. Not sure why as they never leave the yard, but just in case they would slobber on someone.  I do not vaccinate the other animals for rabies. My vet does not reccomend it.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Wendy said:


> I know what you meant, i was just trying to lighten the mood.
> 
> As far as rabies, I have lived here my whole life & have never seen a case of rabies or heard of any from anyone nearby. Not saying it isn't around, but I have no personal experience with it. That is the only vaccine I give my dogs. Not sure why as they never leave the yard, but just in case they would slobber on someone.  I do not vaccinate the other animals for rabies. My vet does not reccomend it.


Might want to find a new vet. Indiana law states that all dogs and cats must be vaccinated for rabies if they are 3 months old or over.

http://www.in.gov/boah/2337.htm


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Wendy said:


> I know what you meant, i was just trying to lighten the mood.
> 
> As far as rabies, I have lived here my whole life & have never seen a case of rabies or heard of any from anyone nearby. Not saying it isn't around, but I have no personal experience with it. That is the only vaccine I give my dogs. Not sure why as they never leave the yard, but just in case they would slobber on someone.  I do not vaccinate the other animals for rabies. My vet does not reccomend it.


I find that highly unlikely as the American Veterinary Medical Association states this: 

Rabies Virus Vaccine: Rabies is an increasing threat to cats. At the present time, the number of reported feline rabies cases in the United States far exceeds that of all other domestic animals. Rabies in cats is also a major public health concern. Because of the routinely fatal outcome of infection in cats, and the potential for human exposure, *rabies vaccination is highly recommended for all cats; it is required by law in most areas of the country*.

From: https://www.avma.org/About/AlliedOrganizations/Pages/rbbroch.aspx


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I agree whole heartedly with Otter on this issue!
We have 4 barn/outside cats. They can come in the garage or barn when ever they want, all were strays except for 1 I took from a friend because her cats wouldn't let it stay in the barn.
I have had everyone spayed or neutered & WOULD NOT have ANY cat here that is not fixed!

For those of you that don't want to spend the money to have your cats spayed & neutered I'll tell you if you did you wouldn't have so many getting hit by cars or eaten by predators because they WILL STAY close to home when fixed! They no longer have a reason to wander!

Our cats are all fixed, given cat food daily, fresh water, warm places in the barn or garage to sleep. Taken to the vet when needed & all of them are GREAT huntrers, friendly & no problem what so ever!
We have not lost 1 cat we've had spayed or neutered in all these years because of predators o road kill!

There are a lot of low cost spay & neuter clinics Folks, just do some research & be a responsible person! If your going to have outside animals then please take care of them.
Otherwise do them a favor & have them put down.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

As per vaccination, I don't recommend breaking the law at all in regard to rabies. 

However, in regard to other vaccines, there is plenty of evidence that vaccines are not the panacea we are led to believe and that there is plenty of risk of auto-immune disease from vaccinosis. I can't agree that it is neglectful to refuse to vaccinate children, or to do so with regard to real risk and benefit analysis. 

My goodness this is major thread drift!


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GrannyCarol said:


> As per vaccination, I don't recommend breaking the law at all in regard to rabies.
> 
> However, in regard to other vaccines, there is plenty of evidence that vaccines are not the panacea we are led to believe and that there is plenty of risk of auto-immune disease from vaccinosis. I can't agree that it is neglectful to refuse to vaccinate children, or to do so with regard to real risk and benefit analysis.
> 
> My goodness this is major thread drift!



Yes, I would agree that taking this thread about companion animals and going into the anti-vax argument in humans is MAJOR thread drift. Almost like trying to cause more argument and getting the thread shut down. I'm not taking the bait though. The vaccine argument in humans certainly does not belong on the Pets board. As far as rabies vaccines...I know someone whose HORSE broke it's own leg with it's teeth while suffering from rabies. It's easily prevented and arguing the merits of rabies vaccination is ridiculous.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> Might want to find a new vet. Indiana law states that all dogs and cats must be vaccinated for rabies if they are 3 months old or over


I was talking about my other animals, like the goats. He doesn't recommend vaccinating the goats or other large livestock.



> For those of you that don't want to spend the money to have your cats spayed & neutered I'll tell you if you did you wouldn't have so many getting hit by cars or eaten by predators because they WILL STAY close to home when fixed!


My friend had both of her cats fixed & they both still got hit on the road. She said she wouldn't do it again because it was $180 wasted. My barn is 20' from our road. I can't keep them off unless I cage them which would defeat their purpose. If they were indoor house cats I would definately have them neutered/spayed. See, I'm not all bad!


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

This brings me to another question. Is there any type of vaccination that can be given in their food for rabies? I remember seeing something on tv about planes dropping food containing something for rabies because of an epedemic somewhere. If there was something like that for rabies, I'd gladly get it to feed the cats. At least I wouldn't lose an arm trying to catch them.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Ladies and gents.

Since the OP question is thoroughly answered and discussed, and this is getting WAY off topic, seems as a great place to close it. :cute::nanner::dance:


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