# Baked goods on the side of the road.



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I thought some of you might find this interesting. A local stay at home Mom has found a way to make an income at home. She has made a Baked goods honesty stand. 

She painted up and old cupboard and every day she puts in new baked goods with prices posted. Ranging from cinnamon rolls to French bread and focaccia. She advertises it on the local Facebook page. It looks like she is doing well.


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

I was afraid this was going to be roadkill. 

I would be a regular customer of her baked goods.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

Lots of places here have campfire wood stands with a box for payment, there are campgrounds all over the place here.
I've seen them for sweet corn other places too.
Baked goods sounds great, I'd love to come across a stand like that!


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I am very glad that it is several miles out of my way. Fresh home baked cinnamon rolls on the way to the office would be just too tempting.


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

What a really good idea. Glad to be far away though, baked goods and diabetes don't mix well.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Health department laws vary from state to state. In Michigan, as long as you list the ingredients, address and the disclaimer: Not prepared in a kitchen inspected by MDA. Plus there is a dollar limit.
Not far from me, at a small feed store, an Amish woman sets out baked goods on Saturdays. Just her, her tables, her buggy, horse and an assortment of baked goods, cookies, cashew brittle.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

It wouldn't be legal here without the proper health inspections of the kitchen.
There's a Mennonite bakery just a few miles from me where they bake things fresh almost every day.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

That's how my egg sales work. Sales "at the farm gate" are legal here by state law. People are generally honest, and really, there's not that much money or product at stake anyway.
The locals love it. A taste of Mayberry in the midst of the general madness.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

As I was reading this, a commercial for the channel that runs the Andy Griffith show came on. Barney Fife is making one of his dramatic proclamations...

“Mayberry, gateway to danger!”


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

You folks that think it's a good idea to eat stuff, sold at the roadside, made by a stranger with no apparent supervision, go right ahead. I'll either make it myself or buy it at the store where (I'm told) someone is responsible for monitoring its preparation


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

My wife bought some chocolate chip cookies from Walmart. One appeared to have a rock in the middle, similar to a river stone.
Called the store and was told to bring it back for a refund. I believe these were also made by a stranger, with no apparent supervision. Who monitors mass produced food? The government....


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

gilberte said:


> You folks that think it's a good idea to eat stuff, sold at the roadside, made by a stranger with no apparent supervision, go right ahead. I'll either make it myself or buy it at the store where (I'm told) someone is responsible for monitoring its preparation


I completely understand. It is a personal choice to decide what food to trust based on who makes it. I do that every time I eat at a restaurant or farmers market or even at a friends house.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

I think it is very clever and I like that she thought out of the box


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

Just that, with some products, it's pretty darned tough to mess them up or make them dangerous. 

Baked goods are well...baked. So just about anything you put in them has been heated to 350 degrees. Same with stuff like jam and jelly...they have to be boiled for a good amount of time. I even consider "farmer's market" salsa and pickles/relish to be fairly safe, as they need to include quite a bit of acid/vinegar, sugar or salt in the recipe and heating to be canned and sealed. 

Eggs...well, mine are always fresh within a couple days, but even if they weren't or weren't refrigerated or cooled (mine are), eggs have a loooong shelf/counter life, and if they are "bad" you know it immediately.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

It is all fine and dandy to buy from stores but there is no guarantee you don't get crap either.
Just googgle food recalls for todays date and see how much pops up.
Recalls are up 10% since 2013.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ef-pirg-usda-fda-ecoli-salmonella/2595775002/

Bought a loaf of bread a while ago it was supposed to be 12 grain type. imagine my suprize when I went top make a sandwich to find a 4 inch long sliver of hard wood in a slice. 
Company pretty much told me chit happens when I called them and talked to them.

I buy off the side of the road with cofidence my self.
Michigan has a cottage industry law, some of it is pretty stupid like i can not sell my honey in stores or resturants like i once could. I can sell at farmers markets only if I can show I sell less that 3500 pounds a year. I can sell as much as I want from the front porch steps.

Or I could build a full fledged honey house, with 3 bowl stanless steel sink, covered over head lighting, running water and washable walls and ceiling. 

All is well till people take the produce and leave no money. Friend was doing that with garden fresh veggies till no one was paying but takeing. Moved the stand up the drive near the front door and there they took the veggies and money box. 

Now he has a big fist with a single digit sticking up by the veggie for sale sign.

 Al


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yeppers, that's the way it was when I was growing up. I remember stopping at a roadside produce stand with my dad to get garden vegetables. The old man would leave a coffee can - just put your money in it and serve yourself.
Man I miss the good ole days, lol.
Since I'm still alive and healthy and the only one I can sue is God for the tomatoes being bad, I'll take my chances and live happily ever after.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> As I was reading this, a commercial for the channel that runs the Andy Griffith show came on. Barney Fife is making one of his dramatic proclamations...
> 
> “Mayberry, gateway to danger!”


LOL.
I thought of the episode where they ran the guys out of town for selling off the back of their truck.
Even Mayberry had its flaws..........


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

I will wager that you will never find a hunk of lumber in her baked goods..
I worked in a restaurant, both as a cook and we remodeled one, once.. let me tell you, our home kitchen is waaay cleaner than that restaruant kitchen.
If that woman has repeat customers, I would take it as a sign that the food is OK..
If no repeat customers, wellll, give it a second thought..


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

When I read "What's cooking at your house Part 2", I think how fun it would be to sit down as an invited guest to enjoy the company and food of each poster. I would not be worrying about, cleanliness, quality and inspecting their kitchen and ingredients.

I would enjoy sharing what I have speed cooked too.

I have had a few hair disasters in approved inspected restaurants over the years and try to put those images out of my head.  It's just going to happen.

I also cannot resist stopping at any child's lemonade stand and leaving a tip. We did that as kids. Too fun.


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

My mother (bless her heart) used to say we'll all eat a peck of dirt before we die. Some people with compromised immune systems NEED to live in a sterile bubble type environment. I feel sorry for them. If a person insists on total cleanliness they invite sickness because they have no built up immunity. Think of the native populations of north America when Europeans brought smallpox and syphilis to the continent.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Years ago a heard a strange noise at the fence where my blackberries were planted. I went over there and found my neighbor picking my berries and eating them. He was pushing 85 at the time. He was embarrassed even though I told him to get all that he wanted whenever he wanted them. We are good friends. 

Next day his wife came by with a blackberry cobbler. She called it his restitution lol. Now every year he brings me a pan of cobbler she has made and jokes about his restitution. I tell him he just does it so he can get some of my berries.


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

That is a delicious story. The best kind of friends and neighbors both ways.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

She is doing this two days a week. It looks like a 4 foot by 6 foot cupboard and has 5 shelves packed full. Lots of different savory and sweet breads. She is selling out.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

With that title, I was hoping to find a carrot cake on the roadside.

A Mennonite family lives about 3 miles from me and the lady sets up a trailer with a generator powered display case each Friday in the parking lot of a small tire dealer and Saturday morning at TSC. I have bought from her several times, it's very good and no problems.

As for store bought stuff, I bought paper plates from Wally World and a lot of them had black mold on them, but I haven't died yet.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Bret, would like me to grill up some coyote back straps garnished with some ramps?
I could maybe even stir up some fiddle heads too.

 Al


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

All food sellers want to keep their customers they are not going to try to sell things that make potential customers sick bad word of mouth advertising has killed more then one fledgling business.

Some food for thought (pun intended) if my or your local butcher receives some suspect meat what will he do with it, call the customer who sold it and refuse to sell it on-wards. He cannot afford sick or disgruntled customers. What about an employee at the meat packers like Tyson foods or Cargill meats do with the suspect meat? Will it go into the hamburger bin? Interesting that all the big packers in Canada are numbered companies!


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

painterswife said:


> She is doing this two days a week. It looks like a 4 foot by 6 foot cupboard and has 5 shelves packed full. Lots of different savory and sweet breads. She is selling out.


Good for her!


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

It would be a nice little supplemental income if it is allowed., That would be very illegal in Oregon.

It would have to be in an honest location. I am dismayed by the high numbers of online posters who feel it is OK to take things that don't belong to them and that it is clever to get away with something,(not here on homesteading, but other forums).


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

gilberte said:


> You folks that think it's a good idea to eat stuff, sold at the roadside, made by a stranger with no apparent supervision, go right ahead. I'll either make it myself or buy it at the store where (I'm told) someone is responsible for monitoring its preparation


Who checked your moms cooking ?
Who is certifying yours ?


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

my mom did not like to cook, therefore she was not a very good cook. kept to the basic meat & potato recipes.
but she could cook squirrel to die for..
I was in the army before I learned that a hamburger was not black and crispy like a charcoal briquet .


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol you may the only one in the world that went home and pinned for the Army’s cooking!


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

When I was a kid we had lots of potluck dinners after the church services. I didn't notice but there was one lady that everyone "monitored" as she brought in her food offering to pass. Someone would discreetly take one helping out of it to make her feel good, then throw it down deep in the garbage sack and place the rest of it out on the table--in its special spot, high up, where no kid could get any, but so everybody else would know it was Mrs. XXX's dish--and keep away from its toxic contents..

geo


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

alleyyooper said:


> I buy off the side of the road with cofidence my self.
> Michigan has a cottage industry law, some of it is pretty stupid like i can not sell my honey in stores or resturants like i once could. I can sell at farmers markets only if I can show I sell less that 3500 pounds a year. I can sell as much as I want from the front porch steps.


There are some foods you can't sell under the uninspected Cottage Food law. Stuff that is apt to carry bacteria or cause illness. Most of the law just gets the Department of agriculture off the hook when someone gets sick. So, by requiring "made in a kitchen not inspected buy Department of Agriculture" puts the responsibility on the buyer. Forewarned.

If I wanted to sell a plucked, gutted and packaged chicken, I'd have to have a sanitary setup and be inspected. But, if I sell you a live chicken, chop its head off, lay it on my truck's bloody tailgate, pluck it, pull the guts out with my manure stained hands, cut it into pieces with the jackknife in my pocket, then wrap it in an old newspaper or plastic Walmart bag, that's fine. Because once the consumer owns the chicken, there are no regulations.

My neighbor has chickens. She's getting more than she can use or give to friends. So, last weekend, she set up a card table at the end of her driveway, with 8 containers with a dozen eggs each. She set an honor jar out there. Seems to work. But, I'd never buy them. Sitting all day in the hot sunshine. Since it takes her several days to get that number of eggs, I know they can't be fresh. You may argue the living conditions of chickens that provide store bought eggs. But I know the eggs in the grocery stores are less than 2 days since they fell out of a hen.

Many of the Amish Bakeries and people that are at Farmers Markets use commercial donut mix. https://www.dawnfoods.com/products/...-and-bases/yeast-raised-donut-mixes-and-bases
Makes for soft fluffy baked goods. So, in reality, it is a long way from Grandma's recipe.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

When I worked in the Prison, they made their own bread and cinnamon rolls. Quite a daily process to feed 1200 people. 1400 cinnamon rolls is a big project. I recall talking to a prisoner about the Bakery. He said he liked kneading bread. When I asked why, he said he likes how it cleaned out the grime under his fingernails.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

haypoint said:


> But I know the eggs in the grocery stores are less than 2 days since they fell out of a hen.


Haha! Nope. They are WEEKS old. How do I know? Boil them. If you can easily peel off the shells, they are OLD. It literally takes about three weeks for my fresh eggs in the fridge to get to that point, otherwise, they are impossible to peel.

The eggs I sell down at the road are within 2-3 days from the hen, stored in the fridge until kept in a cooler with ice packs the day of sale. The larger worry for me is moderating the temp in the cooler so they don't freeze.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Yes, grocery store eggs are not fresh.


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

When I worked as a salesman for a grocery wholesaler the Chef's I dealt with all complained if the eggs spread too much when broken into the pan or onto the grill. That was the sign that they were old eggs in their minds.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

haypoint said:


> If I wanted to sell a plucked, gutted and packaged chicken, I'd have to have a sanitary setup and be inspected. But, if I sell you a live chicken, chop its head off, lay it on my truck's bloody tailgate, pluck it, pull the guts out with my manure stained hands, cut it into pieces with the jackknife in my pocket, then wrap it in an old newspaper or plastic Walmart bag, that's fine. *Because once the consumer owns the chicken, there are no regulations.*


The laws here wouldn't allow them to slaughter their animals on your property.

I could sell live lambs without inspections, but I couldn't sell meat and I couldn't allow others to slaughter animals without the proper facilities and USDA inspections.

Some states allow the processing of small numbers of chickens without it though.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

funny you should comment about fresh eggs. today while riding home from our brunch, we passed the neighbors , and they have a sign , eggs for sale,
I told DW that I am sick and tired of store bought eggs that run all over the frying pan.. those are old eggs.
she promised to buy farm eggs next time. 
this is the first year in 50 years that we don't have our own chickens' eggs.
One day I was beating a cup of milk with two store bought eggs.. I kept stabbing at the mixture to break the yolks,. DW asked me what I was doing ?? I said, I am trying to break the yolks.. she laughed at me, she said, they are broken and well mixed already.. I said, how come the milk didn't turn yellow ?? figure it out..
there is a way to take a fresh out of the chicken egg and hard boil it and it will peel easily.. 
......jiminwisc....


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

My store bought eggs have a best if used by date of 6-4-2019 and today two out of three broke apart. The yokes were very pale looking. I do have a few fresh duck eggs, I have to whack the shell with a large spoon and the inside is very thick and very slow coming out of the shell..


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

we have had surplus eggs from turkeys, geese, and ducks.
my wife makes a great angel food cake from scratch,
one time she decided to use goose eggs.. BIG mistake.
it was spongy , heave and really didn't taste all that great.. maybe there is a way, but i don't think she is willing to try again..
besides, we don't have any animals or birds anymore..


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)




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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

If I find baked goods on the side of the road, my wife says I can't have them. 
If they are being sold by someone and they are on a table, then it's ok.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

when I was a kid and sometime thereafter, the local bakeries and some stores sold the paper flour bags full of "day old" bread and pastries, it was 25cents for a bagful. as time went by the price gradually went up.
it was actually stuff that exceeded the shelf life..
many people bought it for their chickens etc.
many a package was considered "not too old" and they had cinnamon rolls for breakfast..they were right, it wasn't too bad..
there are a couple of bakery outlet stores that sell like that. I once bought two layers of bread loaves in my 
4ft x 8ft trailer for a couple of dollars..it was winter and I just left it on the trailer. It all froze and none of it molded..


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

I used goose eggs also for angel food with a similar result. duck eggs on the other hand worked well for me.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

its mostly the Mennonites that do that around here. they sell bread,pastry,eggs and whatnot. they sell at the seaside markets and do a booming business i hear.

for some reason there are no Amish in nova scotia. plenty in PEI now. moving down from Ontario for cheaper land. ~Georgia


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

I used goose eggs also for angel food cake and had a similar result. duck eggs on the other hand worked well


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

My wife used to work at the grocery chain where one of her duties was scrubbing the use by dates off of eggs


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

We sold the farm fresh eggs for years people liked them because the yolks Firmer brighter and more orange and the whites were far firmer and the eggs on the home were much more flavorful. 
For a while the restaurant gave people the choice between store eggs and our farm eggs the farm eggs always sold Better. 
Duck eggs


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

when I was in high school I worked at a mom & pop grocery store.they had a barrel of herring at the front door.
the farmers' wives brought in their eggs . the check out girls each had a candler and checked eggs when there were no customers to check out. many of those eggs had chicks in them..
in wisc we can sell eggs in a store, but we cannot sell to restaurants..
many top chefs prefer duck eggs. especially for baking.
when our GS was in Jr high, I made him breakfast every day.. one day I cracked 8 quail eggs into the pan and served them sunnyside up.. He got a bang out of that..


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## FreeRange (Oct 9, 2005)

geo in mi said:


> When I was a kid we had lots of potluck dinners after the church services. I didn't notice but there was one lady that everyone "monitored" as she brought in her food offering to pass. Someone would discreetly take one helping out of it to make her feel good, then throw it down deep in the garbage sack and place the rest of it out on the table--in its special spot, high up, where no kid could get any, but so everybody else would know it was Mrs. XXX's dish--and keep away from its toxic contents..
> 
> geo


Exactly why I don't like church pot luck dinners!


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

alleyyooper said:


> Bret, would like me to grill up some coyote back straps garnished with some ramps?
> I could maybe even stir up some fiddle heads too.
> 
> Al


If that's what was brought to the table I would eat it with the King and do the dishes.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Alder said:


> Haha! Nope. They are WEEKS old. How do I know? Boil them. If you can easily peel off the shells, they are OLD. It literally takes about three weeks for my fresh eggs in the fridge to get to that point, otherwise, they are impossible to peel.
> 
> The eggs I sell down at the road are within 2-3 days from the hen, stored in the fridge until kept in a cooler with ice packs the day of sale. The larger worry for me is moderating the temp in the cooler so they don't freeze.


I've no been to every commercial egg operation. I've heard the one closest to me is the "Cadillac". The eggs are conveyed by belt right after it is laid. They get cleaned packed, cooled and loaded onto trucks. The Herbricks operation supplies most of McDonalds, east of the Mississippi and many retailers. As soon as the semi is filled, it goes to the store. Egg warehouses are myths. I cannot see any advantage for a million egg a day operation to store eggs.

I know yoke color is a reflection of productivity, not nutrition. I know my back yard eggs the egg whites are not as runny as commercial eggs. Perhaps pealability is also a reflection of production not age?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The laws here wouldn't allow them to slaughter their animals on your property.
> 
> I could sell live lambs without inspections, but I couldn't sell meat and I couldn't allow others to slaughter animals without the proper facilities and USDA inspections.
> 
> Some states allow the processing of small numbers of chickens without it though.


For a long time, I never gave it a thought. If I had pigs to sell, I could sell them live and take them to slaughter, no big deal to get around the regulations that prevent me from selling meat.

But I met a guy that had a side job. He'd get a few hundred old laying hens from commercial operations, bring them to communities that have a big Muslim population. He'd sell a couple dozen hens to every corner market or Party store. Their customers prefer to see the bird alive. So the customer would buy the hen and someone goes into the back of the building to field dress the bird. Somehow that seems filthy.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Egg yolk color is determined by the hens’ diet.

https://blog.backtotheroots.com/2016/09/14/egg-yolk-color-meaning/

Old eggs have runny whites. 

https://thepoultrysite.com/publications/egg-quality-handbook/30/watery-whites


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

how many eggs does it take to fill a semi ??
it would take a very large egg operation to fill one semi a day..
I am not going to try to convince anybody about anything. 
but MY belief is that when two eggs cracked into a 
10 frying pan, coves the whole bottom of the pan, they are not fresh eggs.. maybe not spoiled, but definatly not fresh..


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Egg yolk color is determined by the hens’ diet.
> 
> https://blog.backtotheroots.com/2016/09/14/egg-yolk-color-meaning/
> 
> ...


Purina used to have a advertising gimmick that was 5 hens in side by side cages each fed a different diet that produced a different colored yolk.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> how many eggs does it take to fill a semi ??
> it would take a very large egg operation to fill one semi a day..
> .


It’s been a while but it Seems like we Used to load about 20-25,000 dozen.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

at that rate, you would need a base of 150,000 normal customers. figuring each a dozen per week .


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Truck Dimension (L, W, H) = 15" x 7'8" x 7'2" = 180" x 92" x 86"

Carton Dimension for Dozen = 4.5" x 11.5" x 3" 

Number of Eggs/Truck:


HStack = 86"/3" = 28 Cartons R 2"


LStack = 180"/4.5" = 40 Cartons 


WStack = 92"/11.5" = 8 Cartons 


28 * 40 * 8 = 8960 Cartons/Truck


8960 Cartons/Truck * 12 Eggs/Carton = 107520 Eggs/Truck


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

OK Alice, you are correct, for a truck that is 15 feet long.
but conservatively , a semi is twice that length.
so Am Stnd was close with his 20,ooo estimate..
and at one dozen per week per customer the base has to be 140,ooo people per 7 semi loads per week..
a lot of eggs no matter how you crack it..


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> at *one dozen per week per customer* the base has to be 140,ooo people per 7 semi loads per week..


You're thinking about home retail customers.

Many eggs are sold to processors who turn them into other products.
They might need a couple of truck loads per shift.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Bret I would let you know what was on the menu, Never thought it was clever to get people to eat things they were not confotable with.

 Al


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

yes, I thought I made myself clear about the customer base. I do realize that eggs are sold to other places.
I worked at a few bakeries in my lifetime..
when I worked second shift drafting for a company,
I met a day shift friend leaving.. He said, Oh nuts, I had some fox sausage here today and I forgot to save you a piece.. I thanked him, and told him I would not have eaten it anyway..


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

So this country needs about 2000 truck loads a week for retail needs? Sounds right
I once visited a farm in NW Iowa that was said to have 23 million chickens
Dats a lotta birds!


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

I have an aunt in Ark who raised cornish hens for Doughboy..I believe..
they were on a 12 week cycle. I think.
3 barns of uncaged chickens.. I think she said 
20,000 in each barn..
ya know ? I really don't know much about this, do I ?
but you get the idea. they raised a lot of chickens each year..LOL


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

My numbers were from a while back when the inside of a big refrigerated semitrailer was about 88 in wide by 96 in tall by 508 long. 
Or about 27,000 egg cases. 
But honestly thinking back I don’t remember egg trailers being jammed full. 
Perhaps it was the weight that was the limiting factor then ? We were hard pressed to load 40,000 pounds then. 

Now the insides of a insulated trailer can be 100 wideby108 tall by 632 long and some can carry 56,000 pounds 

Or some one could call a egg farm and ask ?


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

eggs can add up to lotsa pounds in a hurry. after all they are mostly liquid..
I don't care enough to call an egg factory..


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

I would probably pass by any baked goods I saw on the side of the road, but like Yogi Berra said, "If you see a fork in the road, you should take it."



geo


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Just read the largest egg farm in the country had 36 million hens.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Perhaps pealability is also a reflection of production not age?


Ask any cook who keeps her own hens for fresh eggs. Either you set aside the old ones to boil, or you come up with a temp-shock method to make the fresh ones peel-able. It comes down to that tough inner shell membrane either breaking down/separating on it's own (in old eggs) or the cook making it break free of the shell and white by shocking with quickly opposing temps.

I put fridge cold fresh eggs in already boiling water, boil twelve minutes, then immediately drain and flash/cool with ice water. That's what it takes to reproduce the easy peel of what I estimate are generally 3 week old store eggs.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Alder said:


> Ask any cook who keeps her own hens for fresh eggs. Either you set aside the old ones to boil, or you come up with a temp-shock method to make the fresh ones peel-able. It comes down to that tough inner shell membrane either breaking down/separating on it's own (in old eggs) or the cook making it break free of the shell and white by shocking with quickly opposing temps.
> 
> I put fridge cold fresh eggs in already boiling water, boil twelve minutes, then immediately drain and flash/cool with ice water. That's what it takes to reproduce the easy peel of what I estimate are generally 3 week old store eggs.


Might be enlightening to make up a test. Start with 12 fresh back yard eggs and 12 fresh commercial eggs. perhaps 12 week old back yard eggs and 12 week old commercial eggs. Boil and do your peel test.

I contend that since store bought eggs are at most 48 hours old, any difference in peeling is more the high productive caged hens than age of the egg.

If there is a commercial "egg factory" near you, talk to them. See if they store eggs.

Either way, setting eggs out in the sun for the day and selling them as Farm Fresh bugs me, just a bit.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Article....

https://www.delish.com/food-news/a45655/the-scary-thing-you-never-knew-about-grocery-store-eggs/


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

“By law, an *egg* can be sold for up to 30 days after the date it was put in the carton. And farmers have up to 30 days to go from when the *egg* is laid to the carton. That means those supermarket *eggs* can be two months old by the time you buy them.“


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> and at one dozen per week per customer the base has to be 140,ooo people per 7 semi loads per week..
> a lot of eggs no matter how you crack it..


This is just one NC farm that produces *2.3 million eggs per day*:
(The recall story is old news)
https://www.wnct.com/news/local-new...on-eggs-recalled-from-hyde-co-farm/1122005011


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

haypoint said:


> When I worked in the Prison, they made their own bread and cinnamon rolls. Quite a daily process to feed 1200 people. 1400 cinnamon rolls is a big project. I recall talking to a prisoner about the Bakery. He said he liked kneading bread. When I asked why, he said he likes how it cleaned out the grime under his fingernails.


       !!!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> . I cannot see any advantage for a million egg a day operation to store eggs.


Now you sound like another member here who won’t belive anything he hasn’t seen. 
I doubt many egg grams send truckloads of eggs directly to a store. 
That would be a lot of eggs for one store. 
Most truckloads go to a manufacturing plant. 
But I suspect most eggs go to a warehouse first where they are loaded on trucks with other items then sent to stores and restaurants. 
I know that’s how McDs does it and Walmart to. 
The advantage to egg warehouses to a egg farmer is to smooth out the bumps in sales and production and offer the producer the chance to get a little more for his product.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

The happy chicken coop advises that you can keep eggs a month at room temperature and 6 months in a sealed container in the fridge. 
They also point out a egg that floats has gone bad.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

We hauled 105 boxes of apples in a 102" wide by 48' reefer. weight held us back from loading more. Even then we ran only 10 gallons of fuel for the reefer and 50 Gallons for the trcck to make the weight on the scales. We ran mostly at night in states that kept the scales open 12 hours.

 Al


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Egg journey....

https://www.peteandgerrys.com/blog/journey-egg-farm-table-2


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

alleyyooper said:


> We hauled 105 boxes of apples in a 102" wide by 48' reefer. weight held us back from loading more. Even then we ran only 10 gallons of fuel for the reefer and 50 Gallons for the trcck to make the weight on the scales. We ran mostly at night in states that kept the scales open 24 hours.
> 
> Al


Why run at night in the 24 hour states ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Egg journey....
> 
> https://www.peteandgerrys.com/blog/journey-egg-farm-table-2


 Nice small company explanation


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Either way, setting eggs out in the sun for the day and selling them as Farm Fresh bugs me, just a bit.


Agree that isn't the way to do it...though it probably isn't harmful. The farmer's markets require a refrigerated unit of some kind onsite. I can use a simple cooler and cold packs because I sell at the farm gate.

On age of grocery store eggs...check out the Julian dates against the calendar date on which the eggs are sold in the store, like the guy in the video said. Or here - from U. of Nebraska and USDA FSIS:

https://food.unl.edu/cracking-date-code-egg-cartons


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## CKelly78z (Jul 16, 2017)

Freshly laid eggs are just fine sitting at room temperature for extended periods of time, as long as they haven't been washed. Washing them makes them pretty, but removes the protective layer that keeps the shell from becoming porous. I don't know that having them in the sun would hurt, but keeping them in the shade is a much better idea.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Never saw a hen refrigerate a egg
But I’ve seen them hatch every egg of a dozen in a nest. 
And I’m pretty sure she didn’t lay a dozen in a day.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Miss type or a typo. should have read 12 hours. Went back and fix it.

 Al


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Why run at night in the 24 hour states ?


It's cooler and there's far less traffic.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

alleyyooper said:


> Miss type or a typo. should have read 12 hours. Went back and fix it.
> 
> Al


Lol now it makes sense!


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

All of central America and most of Europe stores don't keep eggs refrigerated. They sit in stack on a counter top in the 30's trays. In fact if you want eggs in a carton in central America you will pay more then if you buy loose eggs and put them in a bag.
User pay!!


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

chickens will lay 1 egg per day, then when she figures she has enough, somewhere around 10 to maybe a few more, she will begin to sit on them..
the eggs do not start to incubate until she starts to set.
that is why all of the eggs will hatch on the same day.
Cockatiels, will lay just an egg every other day , more or less.. but their eggs will hatch in the order that they are laid. 
there is nothing more ugly than a newly hatched cockatiel..


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

113,424 pounds of ground beef being recalled. YUMM!!!!!!!!!

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/porta...-archive/archive/2019/recall-047-2019-release


 Al


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> chickens will lay 1 egg per day, then when she figures she has enough, somewhere around 10 to maybe a few more, she will begin to sit on them..
> the eggs do not start to incubate until she starts to set.
> that is why all of the eggs will hatch on the same day.
> Cockatiels, will lay just an egg every other day , more or less.. but their eggs will hatch in the order that they are laid.
> there is nothing more ugly than a newly hatched cockatiel..


Lol sounds like you have hatched a few ?


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

Oh yes, besides the birds that went off and hid their eggs.
I had 3 incubators that held a total of about 2500 eggs.
I did some custom hatching for people, too.
one guy brought me 120 turkey eggs.
another guy used to bring me a couple hundred chicken eggs a couple time a summer..
I do not do any of that stuff anymore..
all we have left is our generic female Maremma LGD.
She watches over us, now.. LOL


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Wish I had a few hundred cockatiel eggs to hatch!


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

AmericanStand said:


> Wish I had a few hundred cockatiel eggs to hatch!


You're kidding, right ??


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

No way !
We sold one cockatiel to a pet store a few years ago and in the last year I’ve had pet stores from 500 miles away call me looking for birds.​


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

about 3 years ago DW got rid of all she had. 28 of them.
called the pet store. they wanted to give her $5.oo/each
they sell them for $100.oo.
rather than do that, she gave them to the crazy bird lady in a nearby town..
If you need large cages, we have a few..


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

I wish baked goods would magically appear beside the road outside my window.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> about 3 years ago DW got rid of all she had. 28 of them.
> called the pet store. they wanted to give her $5.oo/each
> they sell them for $100.oo.
> rather than do that, she gave them to the crazy bird lady in a nearby town..
> If you need large cages, we have a few..


I appreciate the offer but I’m hoping I don’t need any.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Alder said:


> Agree that isn't the way to do it...though it probably isn't harmful. The farmer's markets require a refrigerated unit of some kind onsite. I can use a simple cooler and cold packs because I sell at the farm gate.
> 
> On age of grocery store eggs...check out the Julian dates against the calendar date on which the eggs are sold in the store, like the guy in the video said. Or here - from U. of Nebraska and USDA FSIS:
> 
> https://food.unl.edu/cracking-date-code-egg-cartons


Storing any food that may contain salmonella, like eggs, at temperatures that permit rapid bacteria growth is never a good idea. Of course, commercial eggs are routinely checked for salmonella and the hens destroyed, but not so for back yard hens.

Thanks for the carton code info, I'll take a look next time I'm in the store.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Now you sound like another member here who won’t belive anything he hasn’t seen.


I've been to a major egg producers operation. Seen it, know it. I said earlier, I can't speak for every operation, but the major operation I've seen ships them right out and I see no advantage to hold them.


AmericanStand said:


> I doubt many egg grams send truckloads of eggs directly to a store.


The stores I know about are getting semi loads daily. I'm sure Mom and Pop are buying from a distributor.


AmericanStand said:


> That would be a lot of eggs for one store.


 Most people have no idea the quantities of products that a store the size of Meijer goes through. I don't buy Walmart eggs or milk, so theirs may go through a warehouse.


AmericanStand said:


> Most truckloads go to a manufacturing plant.


 What do they manufacture? What do they do to the eggs at this manufacturing plant?


AmericanStand said:


> The advantage to egg warehouses to a egg farmer is to smooth out the bumps in sales and production and offer the producer the chance to get a little more for his product.


 Boy oh boy, have I seen some bumps in my production of the 200 hens I had running around the barnyard. But an operation that owns a couple million hens, in custom feed manufactured daily, on site, temperature and humidity controlled, exactly the same lighting, doesn't experience the same "bumps" as the back yard flock. The "producer" has contracts, in place before the hen is hatched, that insure daily production matches the contracted numbers. Commercial eggs, those used for ice cream, dried or in products like Egg Beaters, can fill any minor ups and downs as long as they are willing to buy the eggs that end up on the floor of cage free operations or surplus eggs get the discounted prices.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> I've been to a major egg producers operation. Seen it, know it. I said earlier, I can't speak for every operation, but the major operation I've seen ships them right out and I see no advantage to hold them.
> 
> The stores I know about are getting semi loads daily. I'm sure Mom and Pop are buying from a distributor.
> Most people have no idea the quantities of products that a store the size of Meijer goes through. I don't buy Walmart eggs or milk, so theirs may go through a warehouse.
> ...


 Really your Meijer store uses a semi load of eggs a day ?
That’s pretty impressive. 
Did you really follow Those trucks from farm to store ?
Do you really think that egg production from hen to table always matches exactly ?
I might be wrong , but going from my experience with commodities I suspect that there are contracts of lots of eggs that buy and sell just like a contract for a lot of tomatoes or parsnips.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I just checked a futures contract for eggs is 18,000 dozen and there are many warehouses around the nation where you can take delivery...........if you care too!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

On Sunday mornings there is a cable TV show, American Heartland. This morning they showed a cranberry operation in northwestern Wisconsin. They also showed a commercial egg operation. I wish you would have seen it. The owner said eggs are in the grocery store within 24 hours of being hatched.

I love the thought that home raised stuff is better. But doing the homesteading thing for 40 years has made me more of a realist. Still like the idea, but not running big ag into the ground unless they need it. I also understand the risks people take due to ignorance. I love the idea of baked goods at the end of the driveway, but I know the risk unrefrigerated eggs present. Here's som important information:
"Outbreaks of _Salmonella_ infections linked to backyard poultry
--------------------------------------------------------
CDC and public health officials in several states are investigating
multistate outbreaks of _Salmonella_ Braenderup and _Salmonella_
Montevideo infections linked to contact with backyard poultry.

Public health investigators are using the PulseNet system to identify
illnesses that may be part of these outbreaks. PulseNet is the
national subtyping network of public health laboratories coordinated
by CDC. DNA fingerprinting is performed on _Salmonella_ bacteria
isolated from ill people by using techniques called pulsed-field gel
electrophoresis (PFGE) and whole-genome sequencing (WGS). CDC PulseNet
manages a national database of these DNA fingerprints to identify
possible outbreaks. WGS gives a more detailed DNA fingerprint than
PFGE. WGS performed on _Salmonella_ from ill people in this outbreak
showed that they are closely related genetically. This means that the
ill people are more likely to share a common source of infection.

As of 10 May 2019, a total of 52 people infected with the outbreak
strains of _Salmonella_ have been reported from 21 states. A list of
the states and the number of cases in each is on the map of reported
cases page."


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

haypoint said:


> The owner said eggs are in the grocery store within 24 hours of being hatched.


Those are sure to be some interesting eggs!


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

How does one fry a hatched egg ?
it slays me how the authorities want to catch the back yard egg producers on salmonella etc, when the largest outbreaks last year were large egg producers .
2 of them that I can recall..


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Ya know I. Just might not trust The accuracy of a guy telling me his eggs are in stores within 24 hours of being hatched. 
Are the really stale or incredibly fast growing fryers ?

Honestly I belive a lot of eggs are in stores in a day. 
But in the scram of things I don’t think it matters that much 

I buy and eat store bought eggs.


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## TraderBob (Oct 21, 2010)

gilberte said:


> You folks that think it's a good idea to eat stuff, sold at the roadside, made by a stranger with no apparent supervision, go right ahead. I'll either make it myself or buy it at the store where (I'm told) someone is responsible for monitoring its preparation


Good thing you don't live down here, Yankee...  Those would be fighting words at the Farmers markets


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I plead with you to not buy stuff off the side of the road it may not be safe to eat,* NOT.*
On th eother hand you cn buy from a grocery story and it gets recalled caust it is so safe to eat,* NOT.*

One of the latest safe grocery store food recalled. Recalled for lack of inspection.










Just in time for the Holiday week end Beef Hot dogs because they contain metal. Any one want my recipe for coyote burgers?










Rattan shoots packed in brine is also on this weeks recall list.










Recalled because they didn't include soy sauce in the label.











Recalled because they didn't include milk in the lable.











No inspection of this cat fish so it is on the recall list.










How about a coyote stew recipe and one?

Listeria out break causes this recall.











By all means by pass the road side stuff and buy from grocery stores. Every body in the know is postive that food is 100% safe to eat. Who here wouldn't want to eat some metal on Memorial day at a hot dog roast. Yes they sell Iron pills and even zinc pills so why not get your metal thru the hot dog.


 Al


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> How does one fry a hatched egg ?



Ask the Colonel. 
https://www.thespruceeats.com/kfcs-original-fried-chicken-copycat-recipe-1806571


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

nehimama said:


> Those are sure to be some interesting eggs!


Ops, not hatched. Laid. I meant laid.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

alleyyooper said:


> One of the latest safe grocery store food recalled. Recalled for lack of inspection.


I find it interesting that Trader Joes and Whole Foods has had numerous food recalls, far more than the old standby Kroger.

Currently, there have been thousands of back yard poultry in Southern California euthanized due to outbreaks of New Castle disease and numerous cases of salmonella in backyard poultry across the country.

Tainted products from a single farm or farmers market often get missed or never make the news. But recalls involving tons always makes the national news.

Most end of the driveway food and farmer's market food is safe. But it is foolish to think because Grandma is selling it that it is somehow more wholesome.


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

I stopped at a large grocery beside the road near work and brought apple fritters to share. No ill effects. So good with coffee. Everyone was happy.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> How does one fry a hatched egg ?
> .


Ummmm you are asking for the instructions for fried chicken ?


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

FreeRange said:


> Exactly why I don't like church pot luck dinners!



same here. there was this one woman I don't know what she use to take but when they were lining up with their plates she would drool in the food. I couldn't eat anything. I use to get tea and pretend I didn't feel well if anyone ask me why I wasn't eating. course that part wasn't really pretending . I have a weak stomach for stuff like that.

I do go to chowder suppers but that's out now. last one I was at the cook came out and my god he was filthy( no not the ordinary mess you can get into being a cook. ) just all around dirty. I'm really clean over my food same as my mother etc. ~Georgia


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Good Lord couldn’t anybody help the poor old lady by fixing her up a plate and presenting it to her like she was the guest of honor?


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

you'd really have to know her to comment on it. nobody was presenting her with anything. she would push everyone else out of the way. and she wasn't old


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Simply in need of rudimentary instruction in manners ?
well somebody needs to take on the job .


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> I might be wrong


Might?



nehimama said:


> Those are sure to be some interesting eggs!


They can walk to the stores.
It saves diesel fuel.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

You know in the end it doesn’t really make any difference if the eggs get to the store overnight or not if the store hangs onto them or months. 
Part of my ex wife’s job in the deli was occasionally washing the dates off of eggs and replacing them in cartons. 
Eggs will literally last for months if kept refrigerated


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

haypoint said:


> I find it interesting that Trader Joes and Whole Foods has had numerous food recalls, far more than the old standby Kroger.
> 
> Currently, there have been thousands of back yard poultry in Southern California euthanized due to outbreaks of New Castle disease and numerous cases of salmonella in backyard poultry across the country.
> 
> ...


Just saw this morning how a commercial egg facility (that has chickens on-site) in Riverside county, that tested positive for VND over 120 days ago and had their flock destroyed, are now being allowed to bring in new birds and resume egg sales. Riverside county is still under quarantine and no move orders, which includes eggs. Meanwhile backyard owners/small farms in Riverside are still having their healthy chickens destroyed (even those tested negative at owner expense, or birds kept completely indoors), and have been told that they will not be allowed to get new birds until the quarantine is lifted. We're over a year into this.

There have been very few positive tests in backyard chickens (2 I think, out of about 500 positive tests), and the rest have been in cockfighting flocks and commercial operations. Yet the backyard/small farmers are paying the price - commercial operations get to carry on once their 120 days are up. Cockfighters do whatever they want, as per usual.

Speaking of price, the Feds continue pouring money in, so the "depopulation" of backyard flocks continues, absent any positive tests, if you're unlucky enough to be within a certain radius of a supposed positive test (although they won't show any paperwork). CDFA has been terrible at communicating anything, and won't provide paperwork on where or when positive tests were done, they just show up with a kill order and a squad (afterward, they dump the chicken bodies in the landfill, which I'm sure is what you'd do if you had a virulent disease outbreak bad enough to warrant wholesale killings, wonderful biosecurity plan). I'm sure this will continue until the money runs out, or until someone starts a class action lawsuit, which is what actually stopped the killing in 2003. 

There is a lot of disinformation being spread about who is causing the VND outbreak. I can guarantee you my chickens don't leave my property, I don't have playdates with strange chickens coming to visit, and I've never been in a commercial operation to spread it to theirs. I'm sure that's true of almost all backyard chicken owners. There are certain groups of bird owners out here being completely ignored that are actually causing the problem. It's not backyard pet chicken owners or people who have chickens to produce eggs for their families. We aren't driving those birds around to exhibitions/fighting events, exposing them, and then going to work in the egg factory.

Grandma's chickens aren't the problem in this case, but she sure is being blamed.


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## 1948CaseVAI (May 12, 2014)

I wish her luck but I could never be a customer. I do not eat random food. I don't even eat at church pot luck dinners.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

I have seen some things in various restaurants that would curdle your stomach.
A couple of times I have told the owner/manager about things I noticed.
Things that a manager should have noticed if he was a good manager.. that's what he is there for..


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

She is doing great. People are even making special requests now.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

painterswife said:


> She is doing great. People are even making special requests now.


I'm glad she's doing well, but equally glad there isn't anyone selling baked goods near me.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Mish said:


> Grandma's chickens aren't the problem in this case, but she sure is being blamed.


But Jose's back yard chickens are the problem.
Conect the dots. Fighting cocks smuggled all over that region, by who? Commercial flocks with loads of biosecurity and employment requirements that prohibit owning your own chickens, are employing who? Lying Mexican Cock Fighters.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

haypoint said:


> But Jose's back yard chickens are the problem.
> Conect the dots. Fighting cocks smuggled all over that region, by who? Commercial flocks with loads of biosecurity and employment requirements that prohibit owning your own chickens, are employing who? Lying Mexican Cock Fighters.


My point exactly. It's not the small farmers/homesteaders, roadside egg sellers or backyard owners. Yet those are the ones blamed every single time.

They won't crack down on the cock fighters because it's supposedly racist or something, which seems to be a racist assumption in and of itself. I don't want to get this thread locked down...suffice it to say there is just so much schizophrenia and just plain dumb out here. 

Restating, it ain't grandma's chickens, unless she's into cock fighting. It's commercial interests and illegal activities.

*editing to say that the areas of quarantine are mostly very rural. MOST backyard owners are legitimate chicken keepers, eggs and meat. You just have the small but mobile number of the bad guys - and if you have hundreds of roosters it's very obvious who you are, to everyone able to hear for a long distance - who are messing it up for everyone else.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Mish said:


> My point exactly. It's not the small farmers/homesteaders, roadside egg sellers or backyard owners. Yet those are the ones blamed every single time.
> 
> They won't crack down on the cock fighters because it's supposedly racist or something, which seems to be a racist assumption in and of itself. I don't want to get this thread locked down...suffice it to say there is just so much schizophrenia and just plain dumb out here.
> 
> ...


I do a lot of reading about this sort of thing. I get a news feed on emerging diseases. I read it and then throw it into the trash. So, I have to depend upon memory and that makes a far weaker argument than if I had the actual report. I never thought a discussion on this would come up, so I don't recall details. I can say with confidence that many back yard flocks were tested and they tested positive for New Castle. Maybe not the entire flock, but positive birds in many backyard flocks. The problem with diseased backyard flocks has grown to the point that flocks in the area of infections are being depopulated.

Lacking published data, I think in the most basic way we can agree that backyard flocks in southern California are infected with New Castle disease. Granny or professional cock fighter, many backyard flocks are diseased.

Just as backyard flocks in most states were recently found to carry Salmonella bacteria in the hens and the eggs.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

haypoint said:


> I do a lot of reading about this sort of thing. I get a news feed on emerging diseases. I read it and then throw it into the trash. So, I have to depend upon memory and that makes a far weaker argument than if I had the actual report. I never thought a discussion on this would come up, so I don't recall details. I can say with confidence that many back yard flocks were tested and they tested positive for New Castle. Maybe not the entire flock, but positive birds in many backyard flocks. The problem with diseased backyard flocks has grown to the point that flocks in the area of infections are being depopulated.
> 
> Lacking published data, I think in the most basic way we can agree that backyard flocks in southern California are infected with New Castle disease. Granny or professional cock fighter, many backyard flocks are diseased.
> 
> Just as backyard flocks in most states were recently found to carry Salmonella bacteria in the hens and the eggs.


No, we don't agree that they're infected with VND. The state won't provide any proof to anyone, no tests, no locations where positive tests came in. The only proof we've had are a handful of people (and one commercial egg facility) over more than a year self-reporting. The rest we have to take on faith, apparently.

They're not testing backyard flocks anymore unless someone comes in with a dead bird (and I don't think they're even testing those, from what someone I know who is a veterinarian said - called CDFA with a questionable bird that was brought in dead, they told him to incinerate it, they don't have time/resources to test it). They're not testing the flocks they're killing unless they're commercial. Supposedly they ran out of money for that before the beginning of the year. They're not even waiting for privately paid for test results to come back before killing birds, and even if you have a negative test, can prove your chickens have been in an enclosure away from other birds, they'll kill them anyway. They're not showing any proof of any infected birds in the areas they've designated as kill zones, they just show up and kill your birds. They'll ignore you or start threatening you with fines and arrest if you ask for proof of anything, even ID on the people who are coming on your property. They'll come in with a warrant and a CHP escort (which also is weird) if you refuse entry.

Supposedly this disease is so virulent that any chicken catching it will be dead within 3 days. CDFA is setting kill appointments for weeks out. Supposedly, this disease can be transferred on shoes, clothing, unwashed hands, carcasses, and yet they're tromping all over people's property with inappropriate suits (ripped, no booties, not removing booties/biohazard suits while walking from one property to another, or their cars, or just not wearing protective clothing at all - tromping from one supposedly infected property to another), and putting the dead birds into plain black garbage bags, which are then tossed into the landfill - where seagulls, crows, and other birds can eat them and spread the infection, if it exists. We don't know, the state Veterinarian and the CDFA refuse to give out any actual details of what is going on. FOIA requests, calls, emails are being ignored.

They're not even telling people this is happening in any sort of coordinated way. I live on the county line of one of the quarantine/kill zone counties (they're killing birds in a town less than 20 miles from me, a supposed "hot" zone) and the only reason I learned about this at all is from an online chicken group I belong to, haven't heard squat from the state - which, if this was such a disaster that you have to kill over a million birds, you'd think that a flyer in the mail would be the least they could do so I don't accidentally spread a disease. 

The whole think stinks so badly it's rancid.

There's a Facebook group called SOB (Save our Birds) if you're interested in hearing about what's actually going on from the people's side of the fence and not the story the state is putting out. 

Anyway, here's a link from the federal side since the state can't be bothered:

You'll see very few "Backyard/non-commercial layer chickens" or "pet chickens" on this list. Backyard exhibition chickens is California politically correct code for cock fighting or game birds. The list goes back to February of last year, I just copied and pasted the most recent to give you an idea. Either they're 99.9% exhibition birds, or the state is lying again. I know for a fact they're not testing the birds they kill, so I don't know how they figure out where these "outbreaks" are. Maybe they're wizards.

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ou...ease-information/avian/virulent-newcastle/vnd

*Date Confirmed* *State* *County* *Types of Birds*
May 23, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard exhibition chickens
May 17, 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
May 17, 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
May 14 , 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
May 14 , 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
May 10 , 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
May 10 , 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
May 10 , 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
May 10 , 2019 California Los Angeles Backyard exhibition chickens
May 10 , 2019 California Los Angeles Backyard exhibition chickens
May 10 , 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
May 9, 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
May 7, 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
May 7, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard exhibition chickens
May 7, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard exhibition chickens
May 7, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard exhibition chickens
May 2, 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
May 2, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard exhibition chickens
May 2, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard exhibition chickens
April 25, 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
April 25, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard exhibition chickens
April 23, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard exhibition chickens
April 18, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard exhibition chickens
April 18, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard exhibition chickens
April 16, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard exhibition chickens
April 16, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard exhibition chickens
April 16, 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
April 16, 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
April 11, 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
April 9, 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
April 9, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard exhibition chickens
April 4, 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
April 4, 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
April 4, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard exhibition chickens
April 4, 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
April 1, 2019 Arizona Coconino pet chickens
March 26, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard exhibition chickens
March 20, 2019 California Riverside Backyard/non-commercial layer chickens
March 20, 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
March 20, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard exhibition chickens
March 20, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard exhibition chickens
March 19, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard exhibition chickens
March 19, 2019 California Riverside Backyard exhibition chickens
March 14, 2019 California San Bernardino Backyard/non-commercial layer chickens


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Mish said:


> You'll see very few "Backyard/non-commercial layer chickens" or "pet chickens" on this list. Backyard exhibition chickens is California politically correct code for cock fighting or game birds


Any time the government pays $10 for backyard hens and $300 for exhibition chickens, suddenly everyone thinks they have exhibition chickens.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

haypoint said:


> Any time the government pays $10 for backyard hens and $300 for exhibition chickens, suddenly everyone thinks they have exhibition chickens.


According to the people who have had their birds killed since, I think at least February, they're not paying anyone anything.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Mish said:


> My point exactly. It's not the small farmers/homesteaders, roadside egg sellers or backyard owners. Yet those are the ones blamed every single time.


It did start in backyard chickens in southern California. When it spread to a commercial flock, in December, it was the first time New Castle had gotten into a commercial flock in 14 years.

"APHIS also reported that an additional 84 cases were confirmed between Dec. 21, 2018, and Jan. 24, 2019. These detections occurred during the recent government shutdown, and while APHIS employees were responding to the detections during that time, the weekly update messages and updates to the APHIS website were not completed. The delayed updates include two commercial cases in Riverside County, Cal., and one case in backyard exhibition chickens in Utah County, Utah, which had been announced during the shutdown." https://www.feedstuffs.com/news/usda-updates-virulent-newcastle-disease-situation

Clearly this is a problem among back yard flocks and clearly the USDA is quarantining flocks in an attempt to control the disease. Denying that it exists undermines bio security.

When Michigan's department of Ag enters private property, they don tyvec coveralls, head pieces, booties and dispose of them at the infected site. Their training was done in front of several news agencies. 
I'd be surprised that USDA wasn't following proper bio security at this hotbed of infection.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

haypoint said:


> It did start in backyard chickens in southern California. When it spread to a commercial flock, in December, it was the first time New Castle had gotten into a commercial flock in 14 years.
> 
> "APHIS also reported that an additional 84 cases were confirmed between Dec. 21, 2018, and Jan. 24, 2019. These detections occurred during the recent government shutdown, and while APHIS employees were responding to the detections during that time, the weekly update messages and updates to the APHIS website were not completed. The delayed updates include two commercial cases in Riverside County, Cal., and one case in backyard exhibition chickens in Utah County, Utah, which had been announced during the shutdown." https://www.feedstuffs.com/news/usda-updates-virulent-newcastle-disease-situation
> 
> ...


I think you're missing my point. The state is obviously not interested in promoting bio security or informing owners of backyard chickens. They've put up a page on their website, but unless I go there for some random reason, I have no idea this is going on. They've not notified the public in any way, other than those in mandated kill zones - when it's already too late you get a paper stapled to your fence or your front door. Prior to that, most people had no idea there was a quarantine or an outbreak. They're not enforcing the quarantines - there are still feed stores selling chicks and adult chickens in the quarantine counties. Saw 'em with my own eyeballs buying feed (felt like I should take a lysol shower before I got home). My own county (next door to the quarantine area) is a do-not-move county, all of our local feed stores but one are selling chicks/chickens, they're moving them from somewhere. Facebook marketplace and Craigslist are full of ads for birds and hatching eggs. People selling chickens on the side of the road. Zero notification or enforcement, other than depopulation. What is this accomplishing? Continuing the outbreak, I guess, because nobody other than those having their chickens put down, or those who belong to chicken groups of some sort (internet or otherwise) knows what's going on. 

They're not quarantining. I mean they say they are, but they're more interested in tracking down people with birds in certain areas and killing them than enforcing quarantine, based on results. It doesn't take a spy network to go into feed stores and make sure they don't have live birds, and if I notice people selling birds out of the back of a truck on the side of the road without actively looking to find them, I'm sure they could if they were interested. 

From the people on the FB page I linked, it sounds like if you're lucky enough to get a USDA kill team, they're practicing proper bio security and trying to kill the birds humanely, there are very few complaints when it's the USDA people showing up (other than the obvious one of killing healthy flocks just in case). It sounds like the CDFA kill teams are the most common though, and those are people hired off the street (there is a flyer posted on that page with the hiring information the state circulated awhile ago - you need to be 18 and have a valid DL which means they're driving private vehicles to "contaminated" sites, sounds safe). They don't seem to be trained, and there are plenty of videos of terrible bio security. On top of that, if they bring a warrant, they're generally bringing CHP with them (used to bring the Sheriff's Dept. but I think they've backed away), who also walk all over the property without any suits or booties, touch whatever/whoever, then get back into their patrol cars and go off to who knows where without washing down or changing clothes. On top of the bio security issues, the untrained CDFA people are making a mess of the humane part of the chicken killing, lots of videos on that page of that as well. There's pretty well documented proof that they're not doing most of this correctly, and a lot of growing proof that, if there is an outbreak, it is most likely being spread by these people going from property to property and not changing suits or decontaminating in between. Supposedly if you work a contaminated property, you're not supposed to work for 72 hours, and the people video taping this whole thing are catching the same teams over and over day in and day out. So either there are no contaminated properties, or they are legitimately not concerned about spreading VND. 

It really could be either, knowing how this state operates. 

This is already too long, but I just want to mention one more thing. A few years ago, we had an Asian Citrus Psyllid outbreak here. I think the closest infected area to me was up in Los Angeles county (I live in San Diego county - about 2.5-3 hours away). We had notices in the mail about what to look for and who to call if we had citrus trees that looked funny (everyone got them, not just citrus owners). Then they went door to door and taped the same notices to fences/doors. Then a few months later, they taped up more notices that they were coming door to door to inspect trees. Then they came, and sprayed our trees. The outbreak was contained. They didn't chop down any of my trees, "just in case."

If you can handle something dealing with insects (that are much more mobile and difficult to contain than chickens) and that would devastate the citrus industry this way, I'm not sure why they're not repeating the process now. Either they're that stupid, they forgot how to do it, VND is no longer a thing but the money needs to be spent, or they just don't care. I don't know which it is, take your pick. None of the choices inspire trust.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Honesty Bread Box
$5.00 Loaf/bag 
$2.00 ea or 6 for $10 for Bialy
$2.00 ea. Or 6 for $10 cinnamon rolls
Wednesday menu: garlic parm pull apart, jalapeno cheddar, everything bagels, onion poppy bialy, cinnamon raisin, roasted apple, zucchini, and cinnamon rolls.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Mish said:


> I think you're missing my point. The state is obviously not interested in promoting bio security or informing owners of backyard chickens. They've put up a page on their website, but unless I go there for some random reason, I have no idea this is going on. They've not notified the public in any way, other than those in mandated kill zones - when it's already too late you get a paper stapled to your fence or your front door. Prior to that, most people had no idea there was a quarantine or an outbreak. They're not enforcing the quarantines - there are still feed stores selling chicks and adult chickens in the quarantine counties. Saw 'em with my own eyeballs buying feed (felt like I should take a lysol shower before I got home). My own county (next door to the quarantine area) is a do-not-move county, all of our local feed stores but one are selling chicks/chickens, they're moving them from somewhere. Facebook marketplace and Craigslist are full of ads for birds and hatching eggs. People selling chickens on the side of the road. Zero notification or enforcement, other than depopulation. What is this accomplishing? Continuing the outbreak, I guess, because nobody other than those having their chickens put down, or those who belong to chicken groups of some sort (internet or otherwise) knows what's going on.
> 
> They're not quarantining. I mean they say they are, but they're more interested in tracking down people with birds in certain areas and killing them than enforcing quarantine, based on results. It doesn't take a spy network to go into feed stores and make sure they don't have live birds, and if I notice people selling birds out of the back of a truck on the side of the road without actively looking to find them, I'm sure they could if they were interested.
> 
> ...


Which?

Do you want more laws, rules, regulations and government oversight to swoop in and control the spread of this deadly poultry disease or do you want more freedom to buy, swap and hatch chickens?

It is a common theme I see. No one wants any laws, the laws that are in place, no one wants them to be strong. But when something blows up, they want laws custom made for each specific situation. People lack a solution, but are quick to criticize any flaw in the plan. Any mythical lack of biosecurity by a government employee becomes the focal point of criticism.

Michigan had an infestation of Emerald Ash Borer. It started near Detroit. The dead trees were turned into firewood and hauled to campgrounds around the state. In an attempt to preventing it from getting across the Mackinac Bridge, infecting the northern half of the state, signs were posted all along the highway. The folks at the Bridge often reminded drivers. But the Legislature, fearful they'd upset tourists, refused to allow government employees from checking vehicles. It was mostly voluntary. The result is millions of Ash trees are dead as the bug, moved by humans, spread.

For 20 years a few Michigan counties have deer with tuberculosis. The deer have infected hundreds of cattle. MDA has completed annual testing of cattle in that area and either quarantined the herd or paid the farmer and destroyed the cattle. But DNR won't issue kill permits that would wipe out most of the deer in that area. DNR has been week to ban baiting deer, known to increase the spread of TB. The citizens resist the regulations that would help reduce the spread of this disease. So, no one in the legislature will put teeth in any regulation.

Easy to sit back and blame the government.

Dealing with insects might be harder than controlling chickens. But they are controlling a virus, often far harder than an insect that you can see. Plus, I doubt anyone was hiding insects from eradication like many are doing with infected or exposed chickens.

Buying chicks at a farm store presents no added risk, IF the chicks came from a hatchery outside of the infected area.

The problem for the commercial operations is employees that engage in a sport that comingles chickens from different states and countries.

The problem for the government is the backyard flock owners that hate the government, think they know better and refuse to cooperate and communicate towards eradication. Sort of like when you take the attitude that this was somehow started by a commercial operation and your statement that backyards flocks were not infected. Just more of the "Big guy is filthy, evil and diseased, while Grandma's flock is pure and healthy". Hard when the science proves otherwise.


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

If someone puts chocolate covered peanut butter rice crispy squares beside the road, I'm going to save the public and buy them out. I will freeze them as long as I can.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

haypoint said:


> Which?
> 
> Do you want more laws, rules, regulations and government oversight to swoop in and control the spread of this deadly poultry disease or do you want more freedom to buy, swap and hatch chickens?
> 
> It is a common theme I see. No one wants any laws, the laws that are in place, no one wants them to be strong. But when something blows up, they want laws custom made for each specific situation. People lack a solution, but are quick to criticize any flaw in the plan. Any mythical lack of biosecurity by a government employee becomes the focal point of criticism.


I'm confused what you're asking here. 

What I want - if government must be involved at all - is government action that is transparent, makes logical sense, and does something to address the problem rather than make it worse.

I gave a solution in my post. I'm criticizing the ENTIRE plan, not just any flaw, because it's completely ineffectual, makes no logical sense, and may actually be causing the spread of the disease. There's also been near zero communication between the government and the population.

The mythical lack of biosecurity? Did you happen to bother to check out the Facebook page I suggested with video after video after video of what is actually going on? You can see the mythical for yourself.



haypoint said:


> Michigan had an infestation of Emerald Ash Borer. It started near Detroit. The dead trees were turned into firewood and hauled to campgrounds around the state. In an attempt to preventing it from getting across the Mackinac Bridge, infecting the northern half of the state, signs were posted all along the highway. The folks at the Bridge often reminded drivers. But the Legislature, fearful they'd upset tourists, refused to allow government employees from checking vehicles. It was mostly voluntary. The result is millions of Ash trees are dead as the bug, moved by humans, spread.
> 
> For 20 years a few Michigan counties have deer with tuberculosis. The deer have infected hundreds of cattle. MDA has completed annual testing of cattle in that area and either quarantined the herd or paid the farmer and destroyed the cattle. But DNR won't issue kill permits that would wipe out most of the deer in that area. DNR has been week to ban baiting deer, known to increase the spread of TB. The citizens resist the regulations that would help reduce the spread of this disease. So, no one in the legislature will put teeth in any regulation.
> 
> Easy to sit back and blame the government.


Well, Michigan is miles ahead of California, then. I live on the border of the quarantine zone and have yet to hear a single peep from my state government about anything having to do with VND or the mass chicken killing going on a few miles away. No flyers, no mailings, nothing posted anywhere, no robocalls, nothing. There is something on the CDFA webpage, which you know most people visit several times a week just for funsies, seems like an effective way to communicate.

I'm sure you'd have lots of citizens voluntarily doing things here to help the spread of the disease too, if they knew about it. This deadly disease supposedly spreading like wildfire and nothing from the government, unless you happen to live within a random kill zone, then you get a flyer stuck to your fence with a time and date for euthanization. For a bunch of people that's the first time they've heard anything. And the killings are stupid and have no positive effect, unless the birds are positive for the virus (and even then there are arguments that we should be breeding ND resistant stock instead of just culling everything every time this pops up).

Who should I blame? If you've got someone else I should be looking at, I'd love to hear it.



haypoint said:


> Dealing with insects might be harder than controlling chickens. But they are controlling a virus, often far harder than an insect that you can see. Plus, I doubt anyone was hiding insects from eradication like many are doing with infected or exposed chickens.


No, but people move citrus and plants around illegally through checkpoints put there to prevent problems exactly like that one. Same exercise but with plants/fruit instead of chickens. It is almost exactly the same scenario, but they didn't chop down trees (which are the vectors for the disease, just as the chickens are).



haypoint said:


> Buying chicks at a farm store presents no added risk, IF the chicks came from a hatchery outside of the infected area.


So, if I'm one of the horrible backyard owners that has VND in my flock, I go to the feed store wearing the shoes/outfit I just wore into my chicken area. I wipe my boots on the mat, tromp around the whole store, touch some things. Pick up some chicks to check out, maybe buy a few, maybe not. Lots of other people in there handling the chicks or buying them and taking them home to add to their chickens - or the feed bags I touched, or whatever else the virus I carried it with me touched (because that's how the state says it's spread). 

There's no exposure issue there, right? If you say there is no exposure issue there, then your support of the way the CDFA is handling the outbreak makes zero sense, because my backyard chickens are much more bio secure than the chicks in the feed store and have no chance of catching VND based on what the government says. If you agree there is an exposure issue, then you can see my frustration with the ineffectual way the entire process being carried out here.



haypoint said:


> The problem for the commercial operations is employees that engage in a sport that comingles chickens from different states and countries.
> 
> The problem for the government is the backyard flock owners that hate the government, think they know better and refuse to cooperate and communicate towards eradication. Sort of like when you take the attitude that this was somehow started by a commercial operation and your statement that backyards flocks were not infected. Just more of the "Big guy is filthy, evil and diseased, while Grandma's flock is pure and healthy". Hard when the science proves otherwise.


No one is refusing because you're then threatened with fines and arrest, everyone I've seen has given consent because you have no other option than going to jail. People are simply asking for documentation to prove there have been positive results in the area. Why is that a problem to ask for? It shouldn't be. I'm sure if they wanted to shoot your dog because there has been vaccine resistant Parvo (totally made that up) going around, you'd want to see proof that it was an issue before you allowed them to shoot your dog, right? Seems like it would be easy to provide that proof, and yet it hasn't been provided.

I never said this was started by a commercial operation. The strain has been traced to a south American country (can't remember which now, sorry), and was first identified in game birds/fighting birds. Fighting flocks are NOT backyard chickens. Have you ever seen these operations? There's as much difference between a commercial operation and my backyard chickens as there is between my backyard flock and a fighting breeder/keeper setup. Apples and oranges, and if you think they relate to each other I'm going to be slightly rude and say you have no idea what you're talking about. 

Again, Granny's chickens are not the problem unless Granny is into cockfighting. Granny's chickens sit in her yard and don't interact with other birds where they can pick up the disease and pass it on to other birds they meet at the next fight. Granny's chickens are not the problem. 

The science has proven otherwise, based on the origin of the current strain we're dealing with. It didn't originate in a sewing circle in Pasadena among Silkies.


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## dmm1976 (Oct 29, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> Never saw a hen refrigerate a egg
> But I’ve seen them hatch every egg of a dozen in a nest.
> And I’m pretty sure she didn’t lay a dozen in a day.


Thats interesting. Im assuming now that a fertilized egg would be "fresher" longer than an unfertilized egg since its basically a living thing. So it wouldnt go bad if it were in a warmer environment?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Of course you are confused. It is complex. You’d like to be critical of the numerous government agencies involved, without acknowledging the complexities of controlling a disease within existing laws, public opinion and limited funds.

“What I want - if government must be involved at all - is government action that is transparent, makes logical sense, and does something to address the problem rather than make it worse.”

Really, you question if the government should be involved at all? Really?

“I gave a solution in my post. I'm criticizing the ENTIRE plan, not just any flaw, because it's completely ineffectual, makes no logical sense, and may actually be causing the spread of the disease. There's also been near zero communication between the government and the population.” You gave no solution. These agencies have spent thousands, perhaps millions, trying to protect your backyard chickens from this deadly disease and all you can do is criticize. Who pays for your impractical dor to door informational discussion? Would be far easier if everyone with chickens was on a County registry. I’m sure many would resist such a privacy intrusion.



↑ When Michigan Dept of Ag tested every one of the cattle in Michigan for TB and needed a way to trace back to the herds that originated the infected cattle. But requiring RFID on all cattle generated lots of outlandish claims from out side groups.

The exact location of infected herds is private. No one wants the public to know their farm was infected. So, there has to be a balance between insuring privacy and getting the information to the segment of the public that benefits from the information, without creating a media circus.

In Michigan, each time a farm is found to have an infected cow, a circle is created around that farm, farmers in the circle are notified and there are public meetings. Most people don’t bother to attend. Then the herds in the circle are quarantined and tested.

I can’t think of a single way to inform backyard flock owners, without stirring up the public. With limited funds, perhaps the focus should be in condemning exposed and disposing of infected birds.



“and even then there are arguments that we should be breeding ND resistant stock instead of just culling everything every time this pops up”

Just more mythical nonsense to give people a reason to try to sneak something past the inspectors. See, its complicated. Everyone has a reason to be exempt.

“Who should I blame? If you've got someone else I should be looking at, I'd love to hear it.” Blame? Did the government bring the disease to SC? Did the commercial operations bring the disease to SC? The legislature could put all sorts of licensing and testing requirements that would have prevented the spread. We could close the Border and spend trillions inspecting and testing every person, animal and feed and food product potentially infecting this country. But just not practical and lacks the will of the public. 


“So, if I'm one of the horrible backyard owners that has VND in my flock, I go to the feed store wearing the shoes/outfit I just wore into my chicken area. I wipe my boots on the mat, tromp around the whole store, touch some things. Pick up some chicks to check out, maybe buy a few, maybe not. Lots of other people in there handling the chicks or buying them and taking them home to add to their chickens - or the feed bags I touched, or whatever else the virus I carried it with me touched (because that's how the state says it's spread). “

That is exactly how a pig virus spread, a couple years ago. A trucker left an infected farm, went to a Party Store. Then an employee at another farm went to that same Party Store. He then infected another farm. With good biosecurity, a Veterinarian went to an infected farm. The farm has a shower and changing room where he doffed his disposable coveralls, showered and put on his clean clothes. When he got home, he swabbed his nose and was able to culture the virus. Perfect biosecurity is difficult.

It makes it far more difficult when folks like you have a chip on their shoulder, believe diseases come from horrid commercial flocks and their methods insure they are never the source of diseases. What you suggest would control where movement of people from an entire region of a county would be controlled, where businesses would be banned from selling healthy chicks. Makes biosecurity sense, but totally impractical. 

Refusing to comply or face fines is simple. But when this is centered on an illegal network of illegal fighting cocks by many with citizenship issues, you’d be a fool to think there is much cooperation and openness.

The dead birds are tested. If positive, you have an infection and your birds were exposed. No one is spending testing money on exposed birds. But the government cannot tell you, “ That family at 3456 Front Street had an infected bird, you are in the circle so your birds are depopulated. Here is a copy of their test results.” Privacy issues prevail, as they should. Doesn’t help when you start out hating the government and expect to litigate each step in the process. There is no money for that folly.

Fighting chickens, raised in back yards are not back yard chickens? How do you separate them? The government understands this large, but illegal, business. But since this is a disease that spreads among chickens, your backyard flock is just as likely to contract New Castle as it is to spread it. So, an infected flock in your area, requires the elimination of the chickens in that area. As strange as it might seem, we have illegal fighting cocks in Michigan. I do know what I’m talking about. I have also participated in the depopulation of several poultry operations due to HPAI. 

Nearly all of the chicken diseases in Michigan are spread among backyard flock owners through flea markets, Craigslist, County Fairs and internet saales. Yup, Grandma’s hens.

I’m not saying backyard hens are the cause of the world’s problems. Just trying to point out that backyard hens are more likely to carry diseases than bio secure commercial operations. Fresh air and sun shine is great, but is a poor vaccine.


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

Used to have a favorite restaurant. That is, until I found a piece of beer bottle in my food


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I can’t think of any reason in the world you deserve privacy to spread the disease.
We don’t give mass shooters privacy so they can continue their shooting. The address of every infected chicken found should be public information and well disseminated


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## dmm1976 (Oct 29, 2013)

Anyone want to buy some hamburger buns by the side of my road


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

dmm1976 said:


> Anyone want to buy some hamburger buns by the side of my road
> View attachment 77272


They look great. I would.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Thought you might appreciate an update. This person has built a building to replace the cupboard she was using to sell her baked goods.


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## 67drake (May 6, 2020)

I’d be there daily! When I’m up in the county seat on Saturdays, I always stop at the farmers market. The Amish make some mean desserts and bread. I wish there was a roadside place like that, that was open daily, around here. 
I also always stop at the numerous stands in the summer when farmers put out rhubarb and raspberries.


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