# Saddleseat question



## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Just out of curiosity, why do Saddleseat riders (and the riders on the Icelandic horses) sit so far back on the horse's back? I'm from dressage/hunter/western background and never rode Saddleseat. Is there some rationale? Does it harm the horse? Would it harm a horse if a heavy rider rode that way? How does the balance/cues, etc. work?

Someone explain Saddleseat to me!  Now I'm curious!


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

You mean like this?










I don't get it either.

Though I was told by one saddleseat rider (she rode Saddlebreds), that to get a horse to use his hind end and get him light in the forehand, they "pop them in the kidneys" - that is - pound them hard on the back/loin area and they will drop their backs and supposedly lift the front end. Egads.

I haven't seen this style of riding with Icelandic riders though. Saddleseat is an American style of riding, not English or European. It seems it's mostly seen with Saddlebreds, TWHs, and some of the other American gaited breeds.


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## mountainwmn (Sep 11, 2009)

I have never seen a rider that far back, bu I have been told that it helps the horse elevate in the front if you sit a bit farther back. Its hard enough for them to lift in the front, without your weight added. Most of the saddleseat riders I have seen compete are just slightly further back than a western rider.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

All the Icelandic horse riders I know, don't sit that far back. We sit where we would sit bareback, as there isn't a lot of back to sit on.
We also don't sit as far up on top of the withers as I have seen some TB, warmblood riders and the like do. That is not good either.

Here is me on Dyfra, excuse the bulky winter clothes, I don't normally look that big.









And me on Stjarna, am cuing her here, not to piggy pace.









Here's another angle









I am sitting right where I would sit bareback. Yes, Icelandic's have very short backs but they are strong.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I was looking at the speed tolting videos, they look as far back as that Saddlebred rider. You look fine to me, Shari. Is there someone out there that rides that style?


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

None of the dozens of Icelandic's horse riders I know, ride like in that video.
That is an old Icelandic style of riding and I would say the majority do not ride like that.
In fact, people would have more than a few words to a person riding that far back now a days.


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## rabbitpatch (Jan 14, 2008)

With a gaited horse like a saddlebred or a TWH you want to sit back slightly further to take weight off the shoulders. It helps them lift the front end and perform those high steps much better. 

The guy in Malinda's pic is way too far back. He's sitting on the back of the saddle even, which can't be good for that horse. That tends to happen more with the padded horses (like that one) though, because their front end is jacked up so far already, that the rider slides backward in the saddle - especially once the horse speeds up. 

Sometimes it just happens though, whether you intend to sit that far back or not. When I used to show my saddlebred mare, I would purposely sit too far forward to start with because when she got fast (her fast rack was lightning speed), I would always slide back some on the saddle, even though trying my darndest not to. And she was flat shod - usually nothing heavier than a toe weight in the front. That's one reason why I'm a fan of the saddleseat saddles with a suede seat. The suede helps to stop the rider from sliding too far back, especially when wearing slick show pants!


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## lathermaker (May 7, 2010)

The guy in Malinda's pic is a poor example of how Saddle Seat is to look. He's too far back, his stirrup leathers are too long. Granted, this horse has some nice high shoulders on him, so it throws the saddle back a bit farther.

As for "pop them in the kidneys" that is pure rubbish! If you actually rode a horse like that , he'd end up peeing blood. I worked in a Saddlebred training stable for a few years. Those horses are really athletic & very even tempered for a hot-blood.

The reason you sit a little bit farther back is because then you can use your legs to squeeze the horse up into the bridle. It does take part of your weight off the front end too.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

I've seen photos of folks sitting on the horse's rump to ride. No saddle. Don't remember what country it was.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Now I do notice something interesting...ALL of those pics show riders with a good stirrup length. I see english riders all the time with super short leathers, looking like jockeys. It looks unbalanced, and uncomfortable.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Most of the cutback saddles I rode in years ago (and years and years.......) would dig into the horses shoulder if not placed pretty far back. A real quality cutback would fit a saddlebred like a glove, sliding right into it's confirmation and work well for a horse who traveled high in the front and the back. A horse like that travels pretty flat even at a canter. Which is good because it's like riding on a board on the top of the horse.
But basically I always felt it was designed to show off the horses front end action simply by keeping the saddle flaps out of the way. It looks elegant and light if well done.
That first picture is a big lick walking horse- not an example of saddle seat equitation.
But I can tell you that riding a good saddlebred in full action is like being on a jet taking off. A real rush.............


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

When I moved to KY (and right here is big TWH country) I could not BELIEVE how they rode. They also haul back on the reins, with a long shanked "walking horse" bit as well. I've tried to ride a couple of the show type TWH here and absolutely cannot get them to gait for me because they are trained that way (maybe not quite as extreme as the photo posted by the OP but almost) and I can't ride that way ... western trained and then dressage.

I have owned and ridden single-footing horses ... like the Rocky Mountain horses and Paso breeds. I rode them just like I do my western or dressage horses and on a loose rein, like Shari is riding on her Icelandic ... never had a problem getting them to gait or to stay in gait.

I don't know the 'theory' behind it, although I've been told it "frees up" the front end and the tight rein "picks up their front end" ... but I just don't get it.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

What is "piggy pace"? And how tall are you Shari? How tall are your horses?


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

I always rode western with a loose rein as well. Have really had to force myself to pick up more contact. Contact is good..but that extreme pull,,,,
Funny you should mention the cranking back and long shanked bit to get a good gait. Last friday at the show a gentleman told me I had to really pull and hold and needed a bit with more of a curved shank. My goal is to be able to release the pressure and have the horse keep its head position. Something the horse and I both need to work at.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I just absolutely cannot put that much pressure on a shanked bit ... I cringe when I try to do it. I'm a cowboy/dressage snaffle bit rider and ride with a loose rein (cowboy) or light contact (dressage). I will never make a gaited horse rider ...


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

I know exactly what you are talking about ..esp the cringe.....
I was thinking maybe to start riding Lou with a snaffle,,with a martingale. Seems to me that would ease off her mouth a lil and still get the right hed set. What do you all think?


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## chewie (Jun 9, 2008)

and maybe its just me, but that fella seems a bit large for that horse anyhow, then to be sitting in that bad spot? poor horse.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

rode Lou with a snaffle today. I didnt notice a tremedous amount of headset problems. I started with a snaffle and training forks and ended up just a plain snaffle. 
WE both liked it. Think except for in a ring this is how we will do it. 
As for what I see around here at local shows....I see long stirrups and saddles just about setting normally. Occasionally you see someone stick there legs straight out and throw their bodies leaning back. They look really stupid to me


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

birchtreefarm said:


> What is "piggy pace"? And how tall are you Shari? How tall are your horses?


Piggy pace is a very slow pace, frowned upon with the Icelanders but if you have a Peruvian, they call it a good range of thread/speed.

Dyfra the grey mare is a solid and very wide 12.3 hands
Stjarna is the bay mare and is 13.3 hands but only half as wide as Dyfra. She is only Extra wide on the Wintec Gage. LOL
Dyfra's width is off the map!:gaptooth:

I am 5'6" tall and short compared with the majority of the Icelandic people I have met over the years.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

A lot of years ago, when Saddlebred people started raising and showing Arabs the Arabian Park Horse was ridden with a "saddlebred bounce". Using a cutback saddle, very long stirrups (toes barely reaching the stirrups), sitting back and not posting but bouncing on the kidneys. The idea was that the horse would come up higher on his front end with a hesitation at the highest point, making a better Park Horse. This was made popular by the La Croix's among others--making it the most common way to win.
I have no idea if this is still being done, I haven't been to an Arab show for years. I never showed a park horse, or rode like that, but you couldn't miss it at the shows. And when it was winning a lot of pretty bad riders were doing it--and I'm sure it wasn't good for the horse.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

beccachow said:


> Now I do notice something interesting...ALL of those pics show riders with a good stirrup length. I see english riders all the time with super short leathers, looking like jockeys. It looks unbalanced, and uncomfortable.


Not the rider in Malinda's pic. Those stirrups are WAY too long. If you're jumping it's far more secure to ride with a shorter stirrup. Really helps keep the heels down the rider well balanced. Mabe that's what you're seeing? Dressage riders use a much longer stirrup than jumpers.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

I ride long legged, because it is the most comfortable for me. Put my leg up in the typical English fashion, and I won't be able to ride due to the pain.
Am just a pleasure rider any more and just keep enough weight in the stirrups to keep my feet on them. I don't balance myself or put even part of my weight on them.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Also when jumping, you need shorter irons in order to be able to get up off the horse's back when in they are in the air. This is me (on the chestnut) with my irons at jumping length:










When I ride Dressage, my irons are 5-6 holes longer, but not near as long as the guy in the photo.


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## pookshollow (Aug 22, 2005)

beccachow said:


> Now I do notice something interesting...ALL of those pics show riders with a good stirrup length. I see english riders all the time with super short leathers, looking like jockeys. It looks unbalanced, and uncomfortable.


No. That first picture shows a rider reaching for his stirrups with his toes pointing down. He is not in balance with that horse, but way behind it.

In my eventing days, I could vary my stirrup length by 3 or 4 holes between dressage, stadium jumping and cross-country. When galloping and jumping at speed, you need to be up off of the horse's back, but balanced over your stirrups. Your knees act as shock absorbers. You can't do that if you're reaching for the stirrups.

To visualize an ideal English seat - imagine that you are sitting on the horse with your feet in the stirrups and someone magically whisks the horse away out from under you. If you would land balanced over your feet, that's a good seat. That guy in the first picture would land on his rump! I see a lot of riders that would go the other way and land on their noses.


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## pookshollow (Aug 22, 2005)

Ha! Great minds think alike! 

Here's a picture of me going over a X-country fence. If I was walking, you'd see my stirrups pretty close to Malinda's length.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

pookshollow
thats a gorgeous horse.
Real jumping takes more guts then I would ever muster in 10 lifetimes. LOL the last log I jumped I even fell off:>)


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

I used to do some cross country and hunter for fun, when I was in my teens and un-dented. 
Won't even try now a days but I do love watching other people jump. ;O)


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

A rider does not need to sit on the horse's loins to get the forehand to lighten.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

malinda said:


> A rider does not need to sit on the horse's loins to get the forehand to lighten.


You and I know that--but as an old friend used to say "there are good riders and there are horsemen- you don't want to be a good rider". When the Arabians became an "investment", rather than a horse people would do whatever it took to win. I don't know if the "saddlebred bounce" is the way gaited horse people ride, but I do know the people who started it with the Arabs came directly from the saddlebred world. Look at what has happened to the Arabian market.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Yes, I was raised to see Malinda's examples as the way to ride (not that I was ever that good, but I knew some of the top riders of the day through my mother). I do have a better idea what's going on in the Saddlebred world. 

Another question - do people ride more normally and still win? Any examples of them?


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## fetch33 (Jan 15, 2010)

malinda said:


> You mean like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This thread has been on my mind the last few days. I started riding saddleseat in 1978. I have never ever heard of popping a horse in the kidneys... and my sister-in-law was a Saddlebred trainer and saddleseat equitation instructor. Saddleseat is a balanced seat.. you should be able to draw a line from your head/neck, down through your shoulders elbows, hips and heels and form a straight line. Saddlebreds generally have longer backs than most breeds, thus the saddle can sit comfortably back from the shoulders a bit. You get lightness, high action up front and drive from the rear by proper breeding! 
The photo above is a big-lick walking horse. His front end is jacked up on stacks and it requires a breastplate to keep the saddle from sliding off the horse. Many of the riders of such a horse develop a hunched over appearance as the horse moves along, because they are trying to make their center of gravity move forward so they don't fall off the backend of the horse!
You also can't compare a dressage horse doing pirouettes with saddleseat. Those horses take years to accomplish such extreme collection and self-carriage that they can perform movements like that. 
As far as the bitting goes, walking horses do wear the long curbs, and honestly, I have never ridden one so I don't know what kind of contact is maintained to get the gait and performance out of one. Most Saddlebreds require very little in the way of bit contact. In fact, the snaffle bit probably has most of the contact and the curb is used to adjust the horse's tucking of the head. You generally can't have a heavy hand or you will have an unhappy horse. I can honestly say I have had the most contact with a horse's mouth when I have ridden hunt seat (traditional, not AQHA ) and dressage. 
I may be showing some 'breedism' here also, but every Saddlebred person I knew while growing up would never have shown an Arabian! I think the Arabian people adopted the saddleseat look, not the Saddlebred people made the Arabian look like a Saddlebred. In fact, because it was so difficult to make the Arabian do park gaits (you get the bouncy awkward trot that is high in the front and shuffling in the back ), they started crossing the Arabian and Saddlebred 25 years ago or so to make a National Show Horse. You got a taller horse with a more balanced high trot that looked Arabian. 
Before you all think I am totally full of carp, in my middle-age years, I have owned an Arabian, National Show Horse and American Saddlebred. My kids have showed them saddleseat, hunt seat (the Arabian was an awesome jumper and also won a State Fair saddleseat division AND hunter equitation), western/reining/gaming and I dabbled with dressage. I have way too many saddles! My sister owned the top American Saddlebred dressage horse Harry Callahan that made it all of the way to Grand Prix, so I know a little bit about what is involved with the training of Grand Prix dressage horses. Don't judge saddleseat by one picture or what you have heard through the grapevine. And even though I wouldn't have touched an Arabian when I was a teenager eep:, my daughter's Arabian converted me to considering the horse, not the breed. That mare with the best horse I have ever owned


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## fetch33 (Jan 15, 2010)

GrannyCarol said:


> Just out of curiosity, why do Saddleseat riders (and the riders on the Icelandic horses) sit so far back on the horse's back? I'm from dressage/hunter/western background and never rode Saddleseat. Is there some rationale? Does it harm the horse? Would it harm a horse if a heavy rider rode that way? How does the balance/cues, etc. work?
> 
> Someone explain Saddleseat to me!  Now I'm curious!


And to get back to the original question, the best book for saddleseat riding is Helen Crabtree's book Saddle Seat Equitation. You can pick it up on ebay/half.com for a few bucks or check it out of your library. :happy2:


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I looked it up on Amazon - paperback isn't THAT bad at about $40, but the hardback is $140!! Kinda pricey to answer a question. 

OK, used isn't so bad.


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## fetch33 (Jan 15, 2010)

The book is $5.00 at Half.com. The pricey ones are probably autographed.


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## pookshollow (Aug 22, 2005)

lamoncha lover said:


> pookshollow
> thats a gorgeous horse.
> Real jumping takes more guts then I would ever muster in 10 lifetimes. LOL the last log I jumped I even fell off:>)


Yep, Teddy was my "lifetime" horse. His knees have gotten very bad over the last year, so this may be his last summer.


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

Just like in any style of riding, there are good riders and bad. Personally, I have had more contact with the bad side of saddleseat (unfortunately) and not enough with the good. I know that there are good saddleseat riders with good balance who know how to treat their horses well, and I am not trying to generalize saddleseat riding. That said, a few years back I had a rescued saddlebred who had swollen kidneys from some bad rider bouncing on them constantly for years and years. The vet that I worked with who knew him well, told me that a lot of older saddleseat horses that she saw had kidney problems from riders sitting too far back (on the horse's kidneys) on hard saddles with no pads. So yes, it does happen (but again, I'm not trying to talk smack about saddleseat, I don't know enough about it to do that)


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

TroutRiver said:


> Just like in any style of riding, there are good riders and bad. Personally, I have had more contact with the bad side of saddleseat (unfortunately) and not enough with the good.


Same here.

I compared the photos of the Canter Pirouettes to show that a rider does not need to sit on a horse's loins to "lighten the front end" - I believe that is what I said in that post also.

Just google Saddlebred Saddleseat and you find the vast majority of riders riding in a chair style seat with hands too high and elbows held up and pointed out. The horses are hollow backed, with their heads pulled up and back in pseudo-collection. Of course, you find the same with Arab Saddleseat. 

If you google Saddlebred Dressage, you see athletic horses who are round through their backs and necks, not hollow, ridden correctly, and with natural gaits. A huge difference within the same breed of horse.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

bergere said:


> Piggy pace is a very slow pace, frowned upon with the Icelanders but if you have a Peruvian, they call it a good range of thread/speed.
> 
> Dyfra the grey mare is a solid and very wide 12.3 hands
> Stjarna is the bay mare and is 13.3 hands but only half as wide as Dyfra. She is only Extra wide on the Wintec Gage. LOL
> ...


I know, I've seen Icelanders on horses and sometimes it looks downright goofy, but the horses carry them with no problem.

I'm 5'4" so I think I'd look just right on an Icelandic horse. 

I rode a Paso Fino once, way back when I was a teenager. There was a farm having an open house day and inviting people to come take a "test drive". I got my dad to take me, and got up on one with one of the owners on another horse and we went out for a little ride. I was all for going faster than a walk, so I probably gave the horse a little encouragement  and suddenly the other person said "she's largo-ing on you!" It was the most interesting sensation, as I'd only ridden non-gaited horses before that. It was quite fun.


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## GingerN (Apr 24, 2007)

lathermaker said:


> The guy in Malinda's pic is a poor example of how Saddle Seat is to look. He's too far back, his stirrup leathers are too long. Granted, this horse has some nice high shoulders on him, so it throws the saddle back a bit farther.
> 
> As for "pop them in the kidneys" that is pure rubbish! If you actually rode a horse like that , he'd end up peeing blood. I worked in a Saddlebred training stable for a few years. Those horses are really athletic & very even tempered for a hot-blood.
> 
> The reason you sit a little bit farther back is because then you can use your legs to squeeze the horse up into the bridle. It does take part of your weight off the front end too.


You do realize that that is not a "saddle seat rider". That is the same type saddle used, but that horse is a TWH, and a true Saddleseat horse would be along the lines of a Saddlebred, Morgan, or Arab trained in that discipline. You are right though that you don't pop them in the kidneys, and that these horses look "hot" but they are really just big sweeties for the most part. 

As to why gaited horse riders sit so far back, a horse that has pads on (like the one in the picture) will make you slide back somewhat just from gravity and the front end action. Even if they are not padded, if they have a "big" front end, you may slide back. My own horse, when he is really moving, can slide you back. No, it is not equitationally correct, but it happens.

As for the stirrups being too long, that is just a gaited horse thing. I like mine on a gaited horse to be long enough that I can brace on them just a bit. Again, it is not equitationally correct, but that is the way you ride them. You get out of their way, let the shoulders have room to move freely and let them walk on while you enjoy the glide ride.


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## fetch33 (Jan 15, 2010)

malinda said:


> Just google Saddlebred Saddleseat and you find the vast majority of riders riding in a chair style seat with hands too high and elbows held up and pointed out. The horses are hollow backed, with their heads pulled up and back in pseudo-collection. Of course, you find the same with Arab Saddleseat.
> 
> If you google Saddlebred Dressage, you see athletic horses who are round through their backs and necks, not hollow, ridden correctly, and with natural gaits. A huge difference within the same breed of horse.


Only about 5% of American Saddlebreds make top traditional saddle seat horses. The horse has to physically want to move that way. A lot of dressage Saddlebreds flunked out of saddleseat training (and there aren't many dressage Saddlebreds). That is the breeds dirtly little secret. Sporthorse-type Saddlebreds are literally throw-away horses. They are sold to the Amish or end up with a worse fate. So yes, traditional saddle seat isn't dressage by any means... it never wanted to be. It is what it is. If you look at it with a critical eye because you have been trained with classical dressage upbringing I doubt you will like it because it isn't 'correct' to you. 

As far as saddle seat riding hurting kidneys and causing kidney damage... well I challenge you to look on the internet for kidney damage in horses. The only resource you will find is saddle-fitters who promote this notion. I have found various veterinary resources on kidney problems in horses and not ONE mentions saddle seat or any style of riding as causing kidney damage. I took my research one step further and consulted an equine veterinarian that I know and he said it is pure nonsense! The only Saddlebred he treated for kidney problems was strictly a harness horse. This vet has many clients that raise and show Saddlebreds. I guess this idea that saddle seat riding causes kidney damage goes along the lines of another old wives tail of having to stand in the stirrups while your horse urinates to 'get off of the kidneys'. I got yelled at while out east on a riding vacation because I didn't do that. I had never heard of the idea (of course, being raised on Saddlebreds and not traditional hunt horses). I am a nurse and the whole concept was rediculous to me. The kidneys make urine at a fairly constant rate. What difference does standing in the stirrups make when the bladder is what is activated during urination? I am definately no where near the bladder while riding! And why isn't there any talk of riding hurting the liver, spleen or stomach? Those organs are right under the saddle area of every horse.
Saddle seat riding may not be your cup of tea if you have a lot of pre-conceived notions about riding. But I can tell you there is nothing as exhilarating as zipping along on a gaited horse. I'd compare it to a horse Corvette! Here are a few resources on saddle seat riding.

http://regaljada.tripod.com/saddleseatequitation/id13.html
http://www.horsechannel.com/horse-exclusives/saddleseat-judge-myths.aspx
http://www.horsechannel.com/horse-videos/horse-illustrated/saddle-seat-lesson.aspx


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

fetch33 said:


> Only about 5% of American Saddlebreds make top traditional saddle seat horses. The horse has to physically want to move that way. A lot of dressage Saddlebreds flunked out of saddleseat training (and there aren't many dressage Saddlebreds). That is the breeds dirtly little secret. Sporthorse-type Saddlebreds are literally throw-away horses. They are sold to the Amish or end up with a worse fate. So yes, traditional saddle seat isn't dressage by any means... it never wanted to be. It is what it is. If you look at it with a critical eye because you have been trained with classical dressage upbringing I doubt you will like it because it isn't 'correct' to you.
> 
> As far as saddle seat riding hurting kidneys and causing kidney damage... well I challenge you to look on the internet for kidney damage in horses. The only resource you will find is saddle-fitters who promote this notion. I have found various veterinary resources on kidney problems in horses and not ONE mentions saddle seat or any style of riding as causing kidney damage. I took my research one step further and consulted an equine veterinarian that I know and he said it is pure nonsense! The only Saddlebred he treated for kidney problems was strictly a harness horse. This vet has many clients that raise and show Saddlebreds. I guess this idea that saddle seat riding causes kidney damage goes along the lines of another old wives tail of having to stand in the stirrups while your horse urinates to 'get off of the kidneys'. I got yelled at while out east on a riding vacation because I didn't do that. I had never heard of the idea (of course, being raised on Saddlebreds and not traditional hunt horses). I am a nurse and the whole concept was rediculous to me. The kidneys make urine at a fairly constant rate. What difference does standing in the stirrups make when the bladder is what is activated during urination? I am definately no where near the bladder while riding! And why isn't there any talk of riding hurting the liver, spleen or stomach? Those organs are right under the saddle area of every horse.
> Saddle seat riding may not be your cup of tea if you have a lot of pre-conceived notions about riding. But I can tell you there is nothing as exhilarating as zipping along on a gaited horse. I'd compare it to a horse Corvette! Here are a few resources on saddle seat riding.
> ...



I hope you didn't take my post personally, I tried to make it clear that I am NOT trying to judge or generalize, I am just repeating what I have heard from other people. As I stated before, I do not know enough about saddleseat to make such judgements, but this is what I heard from the vet I used to work with, and I used to own a saddlebred who showed clear signs of mistreatment and did have kidney problems. I never said anything about getting out of the saddle while the horse is peeing to get off the kidneys, I agree that is rediculous because the same amount of weight is on the saddle even if you're not sitting in it... but I'm not sure what that has to do with the original topic... Again, I am NOT saying that saddleseat riders mistreat their horses, I have seen dressage horses and hunt horses and western horses who have been abused and badly mistreated as well, this is just my personal experience and what I have heard from a vet I used to work with. I had a rescued/abused horse who just so happened to be a former saddleseat show horse, he could just have likely have been a former dressage horse. Maybe that vet was wrong, but that is what she told me about the likely cause of his kidney problems. I guess with an older horse who has been mistreated, it's anyone's guess as to the cause of his health problems. Please don't be offended and don't take it personally. I don't want to start a battle, just want to learn and have an open discussion


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

malinda said:


> A rider does not need to sit on the horse's loins to get the forehand to lighten.



With Saddlebreds you need to have front end action AND rear end action. One of the reasons Saddlebreds look so dramatic when they go is that they have huge rear leg lift in addition to breaking high in front. To do this their rear does not come way under to lift the rear as a dressage horse does in collection. The horse really goes very level and the legs are lifted high.
Think more extended trot where the drive come from the back. The suspension gives the time for the extra leg action. In the Saddlebred gait, the horse does not lengthen it's body- it's all legs and rear end.
That remark about bouncing on the kidneys really was irritating. Maybe the goal was to have poor performing horses be hurt into hyperactivity. It sounded like a lack of understanding. A really high headed horse will hollow out it's back. And maybe these people misunderstand that the head carriage makes the back hollow out, not the hollow back raising the head. Saddle seat can be hard on a horses back though, if the rider is unskilled.


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## lathermaker (May 7, 2010)

GingerN said:


> You do realize that that is not a "saddle seat rider". That is the same type saddle used, but that horse is a TWH, and a true Saddleseat horse would be along the lines of a Saddlebred, Morgan, or Arab trained in that discipline. You are right though that you don't pop them in the kidneys, and that these horses look "hot" but they are really just big sweeties for the most part.
> 
> As to why gaited horse riders sit so far back, a horse that has pads on (like the one in the picture) will make you slide back somewhat just from gravity and the front end action. Even if they are not padded, if they have a "big" front end, you may slide back. My own horse, when he is really moving, can slide you back. No, it is not equitationally correct, but it happens.
> 
> As for the stirrups being too long, that is just a gaited horse thing. I like mine on a gaited horse to be long enough that I can brace on them just a bit. Again, it is not equitationally correct, but that is the way you ride them. You get out of their way, let the shoulders have room to move freely and let them walk on while you enjoy the glide ride.


I know that pic was of a Walking horse. The person posted it as an EXAMPLE of Saddle seat. As an example, it is a poor one. Saddle seat on a Saddlebred is supposed to be perfectly balanced. I'm not going to get into a breed war. We raised and bred Arabians. I worked in a show training stable that took in everything from AQHA to Saddlebreds. There is a vast difference in riding styles.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I appreciate the responses to my questions, I've learned a lot about Saddleseat. I've always kinda wondered how that would feel, obviously a lot of people ride in that style and enjoy it. It looks a little precarious to someone raised in the Dressage/Hunter type styles, with a bit of Western tossed in. Done well, I find it as appealing as any other form of riding that is done well. I just didn't know anything about it at all. 

If I get another horse, I keep leaning towards Morgans (more the old fashioned type), but I'd be walking around on trails or in a pasture, unless something changes quite a bit for me. I suspect most modern Morgans would get a bit bored, they seem to have enthusiasm for their work. Oh well, still no place to keep a horse and not in a position to have one atm. I guess I'll still enjoy them online.


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## shakeytails in KY (May 11, 2002)

This is Saddle Seat Equitation at it's finest. If you were to sit in a hunt seat position you'd have a mouthful of neck on a good high-headed horse!

This is a pretty good site that tells more about the American Saddlebred. "Dispelling the Myths" does a good job explaining how these horses are different than a TB or QH.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

shakeytails in KY said:


> This is Saddle Seat Equitation at it's finest. If your were to sit in a hunt seat position you'd have a mouthful of neck on a good high-headed horse!


That is so true. I can remember some actual terror when I started riding horses that had no "dashboard" in front of me. I use to "site" between the ears to look forward on my Saddlebreds.
But a Saddlebred can do a lower neck carriage if needed. They can just carry their neck more upright than any other horse I have ever ridden.


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