# Worming after goat doe or ewe delivers



## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

We are preparing for an early summer kidding and lambing time this year!

After our goats delivered last year, we wormed them. We used Cydectin sheep drench at 2times the label for sheep within the first 24 hours after delivery. We were led to believe that worm loads spike after delivery, so followed that protocol.

This will be our first season ever to lamb on our own. So, do our Ewes have the same situation of needing to be wormed within 24 hours of lambing?








Other question we have is do you allow the goats and lambs to do so on pasture? Or do you put them in their own birthing pens-if possible? The lambs are much more shy than our goats, but don't know how this will be when it is that time?!?

Any other words of wisdom on kidding or lambing? We are very new at all of this!

Thank you!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

I will let them lamb in the pasture, but will bring them in and confine them to a "jug" for 24-48 hours to make sure they bond and so the ewe can't walk away from the lambs.


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## Jlynnp (Sep 9, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I will let them lamb in the pasture, but will bring them in and confine them to a "jug" for 24-48 hours to make sure they bond and so the ewe can't walk away from the lambs.


This is our way of doing things as well.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Awesome! On pasture, two of you do so successfully! 

Hoping it goes well...

Do either of you or any others have a flare up of worms with the hormone change after delivery? 
Overall, we only worm as needed, and have been very good for awhile. However, it is beginning of the season when things can flare up!

The goats, we do within 24 hours after 
, but have never limbed.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

odieclark said:


> Do either of you or any others have a flare up of worms with the hormone change after delivery?


I always worm them all after birth, and usually again later in the Summer, depending on symptoms.
Birthing and nursing tends to coincide with pastures greening up, so there will always be more risk for worms that time of year.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

The current recommendations are to to NEVER deworm on a schedule including after kidding/lambing. While there is a period of immune suppression after parturition, if you deworm everything around the same time you are eliminating refugia and selecting hard for resistant parasites to keep reproducing and contaminating your pastures where adults pick them up as new breeding worm populations in their gut - and where offspring pick them up to become infected with a more resistant population. 

By far and away the #1 control of parasites should be management. Decrease the amount they are exposed to by having appropriate levels of grazing (changes with season and seasonal conditions - something commonly overlooked), rotating pastures, and cleanliness at feeders. Deworm ONLY when necessary, with an optimal dose and drug for the parasite of choice. Never deworm everything, or animals that don't require it. Deworming is a choice that should be made based on the whole picture: body condition, fecal consistency, fecal egg count, age, and famancha score. 

Oodles and tons of good information on the website wormx.info - which is the american consortium of small ruminant parasite control.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Bear foot farm, I agree in doing so after birth. I have seen goats go down, and die from a worm overload on a friends farm. Who, by the way didn't worm after birth. The thought of losing a goat nursing her young ones due to not worming, is beyond acceptable in what we have witnessed. However, I just don't know if it is the same for the sheep or not? I do know worms can be a problem as can the resistance to wormers. 

Great reminder Caprice Acres, I have followed and read the wormix site and watched videos and so on. Also, I agree the Famacha eye checks can be helpful and watching poop and taking fecals whenever there is a question! I have been the record keeper for this farm, and have been consistent in reinforcing the importance of it and keeping track of what we learn...who is weaker, and what we give if needed. 

We have wormed only when needed, and watched to see results and follow up with fecals. Now, mind you we have small flocks of various animals, but are also trying to learn how to do this without getting carried away with overdoing anything!

Trying to stay natural and following those who are using some natural methods and proper grazing and pasturing. 

Also, following those who ae using herbs, copper, garlic(They LOVE GARLIC!!!) The goats love pine trees/branches, and eat the needles...all of which, we are seeing if it affects them.

We have deer in the area and they are plentiful! ...So, worms are a worry due that alone! Also, we have been having so MUCH RAIN! Ugh, if it would just stop raining!


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

The first year I didn't deworm (last year, IIRC) after kidding was scary, but successful. I did deworm at least one that I recall, and two this year - month or two after kidding. The major sign I delt with was poor famancha score, clumpy poo, and poor milk production. My high producer on her last milk test gave a pittance (for her - 8.5 lbs). She was dewormed slightly before that test. This test that I'm doing today she looks to be producing around 12lbs if she produces what she did this morning again tonight. I probably would have caught it sooner if I didn't live an hour away in vet school while my dad takes care of them.  But they were far from poor off, suffering mainly in production rather than health. Body conditions and general appearance all still great, no diarrhea. It can be done safely and IMO, the research is where I'd like to follow for my herd as it is more than just opinion - and while goat people have been so upset there hasn't been much research in goats, now that there does seem to be some, they're still often willing to go with what has been done or anecdotal advice it seems. Everyone is guilty of that, myself included.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Caprice Acres-interesting So, do you think people just automatically worm because of habit and it being said you must do this after kidding?...as that's what was done before? I know everyone fears the wormer resistance as a big problem, as it is and has become less effective-plus who wants to give that stuff anyhow? So far the goats seem healthy this year and certainly the Famacha scoring and them having a better overall diet and minerals free choice 24/7, plus we copper bolts and selenium them several times a year-plus Replamin...the goats are good! But is it true that after kidding or lambing hormones spike and worms get out of control? 

We will be allowing lambs and kids to nurse on the mother's, as we are not milking anyone and felt that may also help the offspring have less issue with worms?


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Being on a good plane of nutrition does help prevent health problems in general, and helps them get over illnesses better when they are exposed. It doesn't matter if they're dam raised or bottle raised, it depends on nutrition and management. Much more is at play with young stock and parasites (and diseases in general) - some we have no power over or don't necessarily consider as playing a role. It is also the reason some don't have trouble with parasites when others do. Young stock are always more susceptible as natural resistance to parasites takes an immune system (of any age) about 6 months to mature. If they are raised with their dams, they are often exposed to much higher rates than if they are pulled at birth and raised in kid pens. Rotating pastures and cleanliness at feeders also play a huge role - feeding on the ground is a huge no-no, as are feeders that goats can climb in and mess in. Season differences year to year - really wet years vs dry years will play a large role in your worm problems year to year and can explain differences in parasite problems year to year. 

There is a period of post-partum immunosuppression. It is less to do with 'hormones' and more to do with the inflammatory state of an animal after parturition. It means that post partum animals should be watched closely, but not that all will need to be dewormed. Deworm those that need it, with an appropriate dose of an effective dewormer, when they need it. I'm also personally trying to use dewormers in combination now, which is proven to be effective in large sheep producing countries like new zealand and australia. We don't have any dewormers labeled for combination use here in the US however. 

Remember, the goal is to CONTROL worms not eliminate them. MOST of your parasites are in just a small percentage of your herd, which are shedding large numbers and contributing most to the herds' problem. Identifying and culling problem animals is beneficial.


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Great points Caprice Acres! So very true-have heard about mixing the wormers-but have not 

Thank you for being so thorough!❤

So much rain and wetness still-ugh

Always a concern -worms! Many deer in the region and they leave nasty deposits!!! Plus, our llama is susceptible as well


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## Christopher McClung (May 1, 2017)

odieclark said:


> We are preparing for an early summer kidding and lambing time this year!
> 
> After our goats delivered last year, we wormed them. We used Cydectin sheep drench at 2times the label for sheep within the first 24 hours after delivery. We were led to believe that worm loads spike after delivery, so followed that protocol.
> 
> ...


So we lamb and kid on pasture as well. We do pen them up afterward in small paddocks just for 24 hours. As far as worming..we only worm when needed, but nursing does and ewes will build up a heavy worm load fast. We dont kid or lamb in summer here (usually Feb-April) , but this year we have noticed the mamas needing wormed a little more often. I am not sure why. We did get a ton a rain in the fall (like 19" over normal). i know I am late to the conversation. I hope your kidding went well!!


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

It's a good idea to do a fecal before giving any wormers. I bought a Highschool microscope on Ebay a couple months ago and have been doing our own fecals. We only worm a goat if it has lots of worms. We've had to treat all kids for coccidiosis and stomach worms. The one kid that didn't have many worms last month ended up being loaded a month later so it's good to be able to keep check. One of our does was loaded after giving birth and it took more than one dose of Prohibit to treat her. She was loaded last year at the same time too.
It is not hard doing the testing yourself. I got a special slide with two green grids that you can do a count using a sample of 2 grams of feces.
I just read this about oil of Oregano and it sounds promising. I would be much less toxic on the goat I'd imagine. I don't like having to use Prohibit which is now the only thing that works on our resistant Stomach worms.
http://mofga.org/Publications/MaineOrganicFarmerGardener/Spring2010/Regano/tabid/1556/Default.aspx


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## odieclark (May 11, 2016)

Very interesting for sure-so glad all can share, as it is an ongoing issue and with resistance building... I have followed the oregano as well and not sure we can do it or if it works,.. but am very interested in learning and watching--plus not averse to trying something that is likely harmless!?!

Also, GARLIC!!!

Anyone like it?

I have tested our lambs and goats to see if they like it and they love it!!! LOVE it! However unsure of effectiveness and also on getting it at a reasonable price and then being sure each gets their fair share! We don't do dairy goats so not individually handling them.

I know if high levels of worms after kidding, as hormones spike them! Also a friend lost a goat due to this last year-very sad.

When do you treat kids for coccidiosis? Lambs also? I have to look back to remind self on how we did it last year...


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Garlic is unproven to be an effective dewormer. It also flavors the milk something terrible if you have dairies and like to overdose it.  Many, many anecdotal stories about its usefulness rarely supported by fecal egg counts or long term results - and may quickly change depending on management or change in management (such as would be needed during a drought or increase in pasture burden during the kid raising season or during herd expansion etc. 

Alternative dewormers that are proven are lespedeza, high tannin diets, and copper oxide rods. 

Management BY FAR AND AWAY plays the most role in parasite problems. Unfortunately for any of the anecdotal or 'studies' (loosely defined as, lol) regarding parasite dewormers, the variation in MANAGEMENT is not a controlled variable and therefore renders the results uninterpretable with any accuracy at all. Plants in any form are exceedingly variable in their concentration of active chemicals (if any) depending on the conditions during growth and/or harvest and storage, so just using 'garlic' doesn't mean you're getting a correct 'dose'. Few 'studies' seem to care to prove the levels of effective ingredient. And yes, all 'natural' products work the same as commercial dewormers - they have some sort of 'chemical' that has some sort of effect on the worms. And many natural forms of chemicals are actually highly toxic and commercially altered products are modified to become safer. (natural pyrethrins vs modified pyrethroids for example). There is no magic situation where 'garlic' goes to the worms and attacks them. In order for herbal treatments or 'natural' treatments to work, there must be a method of action.


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