# need help bottle feeding



## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

We got this calf two days ago. the cow she came with doesn't have enough milk, so I am trying to bottle feed her. 

She won't take it. I tried putting molasses on it, she liked that but wouldn't suck the bottle.

We tried forcing it in her mouth, still no go.

What can we do.

this is my first calf, and I wasn't anticipating bottle feeding her and have no idea what I am doing


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

Try straddling the calf with it's head facing forward. Use one hand to tilt it's head up and insert your thumb into one side of it's mouth and forefinger in the other side. (gently prying the mouth open enough to get the nipple in) Make sure you get the nipple on top of the tongue. It helps to have a larger hole in the nipple than what comes factory. Once the calf gets hungry enough and provided it has the ability to suck, it should begin to suckle once a few drops of MR hit it's tongue. 

It's sometimes a tedious, nerve racking process. Just be persistent and realize the calf will probably not stay latched on very long the first time or two. It may take letting it suck a little bit several times a day before it learns to stay latched on for a full bottle.


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

How do you know the cow the calf came with doesn't have enough milk..???


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

topside1 said:


> How do you know the cow the calf came with doesn't have enough milk..???


my neighbor an 82 year old farmer told me. We have them at his barn. We only milked a pint from her.

I feel a little better, as the calf started eating some "sweet mix" that I was taking to the Jersey. I know it doesn't replace the milk. I will try again tomorrow. 

We tried the forcing described above. My neighbor and I on a couple different occasions. On another forum, I asked and one thing they said is that the calf needs to bond from you. I think taking the calf home today accomplished some of that. Just before dark we were planning on taking her back to the barn, and she calmly walked around the yard, very curious about the cats.

When I first tried to bring her to the house, she went boneless on me (laid down and wouldn't move) twice. Then I had a friend come and help me put her into the truck and she flipped out. But when we got her home, I spent an hour or more in the pen with her trying to get her to drink and petting her.

So even though I didn't accomplish her drinking anything, she did calm down.

I had to milk the cow, since we didn't put the calf back on her, and still I only got a pint.

Also when the calf was on her she went madly from teat to teat and was banging the bag like crazy. That is why my neighbor told me she was not getting enough.

I haven't slept much the last two days since she came, but I feel a little better now that she ate some of the sweet mix and that we started bonding.

Thanks


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

How old is the calf? It just needs to learn to eat a different way. Mom's food is down low, yours is being offered up higher. straddle it lie fransssmilker suggested. Force the bottle in it's mouth and press down to imitate it's mouth's action on the bottle. The MR tastes quite a bit different too - can you mix some of mom's milk in with it? Mom might be holding up her milk from you to save it for the calf. Calves will bunt their mom wether they are getting enough milk or not. That's how they get the mom to let down her milk.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

How old is the calf? and do you know how old the cow is? are you feeding the cow anything other than pasture? lots of questions, but we all need to know more about the situation.>Thanks Marc


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

There were some other posts about this.

from this thread: http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=364492 (You reallly need to read the whole thread to get the gist)

"She came with a calf, a Charlois. She was to come with a bull calf (not hers), but said it got trampled when he was loading them and his others that he was taking to market. So he threw in this heifer.

we couldn't get her to suck off the Jersey or a bottle. She did eat some hay. They have been locked up in the barn all night. So our plan was to put the fresh milk in a bottle and try and feed it to her. 

She was not really interested. We were only able to get a pint off the Jersey. But while we had her tied up after some stuggles with the calf, she tried to nurse off the Jersey, who couldn't stop her because she was tied up. She doesn't really want her.

So I will go back later and tie her up again and see if the calf can nurse.

I was asked what our plans were for her. There is just myself and my husband, and we wanted her just for us. We don't need her to give gallons. 

My plan was to just milk once a day and leave the calf on her.

I just want her healthy, and the calf too.

The neighbor thinks she is drying up. Now with us putting the calf one her (which is maybe a month old), and I started giving her sweet mix feed when I tie her up and since she is in the barn, she is getting hay. Will she start to produce more?"


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

Thanks gone-a-milkin


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

After reading the link, that was suggested on a keeping a family cow forum that I joined tonight, I decided to try feeding at night, so off to the pen I went in my pjs. We have a street light in our back yard, so the light it casts is like a moon light night. I don't know if that wasn't dark enough.

She never got up, she enjoyed the pets. I did get her to suck a little on my fingers. I had to stick the in her mouth. She didn't suck with any force. or for any length of time, seemed more like she just wanted to be left alone. I tried sliding the bottle in when I could.

I only made up 2 cups and it didn't appear that she got any. I also had made the hole bigger, and someone said to put another hole somewhere else in the nipple.

It was such a nice night out, I felt like putting my lawn chair in there and sleeping with her. She might like it, but don't think my husband would.

I was told to keep them warm and dry. But never saw a temp for warm. It is about 1am and 73 degrees out. A little chilly for me (its in the 90s during the day). I put the hay all around her and am going to bed. I hope that I have made some progress.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

I`m sorry Karen, I`m going to leave this one up to the others. If you were my neighbor i`d be there in a minute. And good luck with those twin boys.>Marc


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Bucket feeding, have you tried that? Tubing? Sqirting MR into the mouth. 12cc syringe very small amounts per squirt. Keep in touch....Topside


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Sorry, I'm shaking my head. Of course the calf wouldn't want to drink from a teat, what a horrible feeling it is after suckling on a cow. And of course you wouldn't get any more than a pint from the cow, she is holding back for the calf - anybody that has sharemilked their housecow with a calf can tell you that. And why do you think she's not making enough milk for the calf? A cow with a small udder does not necessarily mean that it is producing little milk.

How old is this calf? I notice, that despite being asked, no age has yet been given. The fact that it is alive would indicate that it has been adequately fed. It was probably doing very well until those who knew better decided it wasn't.

I am assuming from your first post that the calf belongs to the cow as opposed to gone-a-milkin's post where the calf did not belong to the cow. The scenarios will therefore be quite different. If that is the case, put the calf back with it's mother and let them get on with it. They seem to have done pretty well up until now. The fact that it is not drinking from anything you offer it would indicate to me that it is not starving and nothing you have said about the condition of the calf points to the fact that it is hungry and not doing well.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Ronnie, this is a surrogate calf they were trying to graft to a new cow. They are guessing the calf at a month old.
The new cow may or may not be giving enough milk to support it. That has not been determined.

Also, whether or not the cow is allowing the calf to nurse properly has not been determined.

They do not know if the cow is bred back or when she freshened last. All of these things are estimated by the neighbor. Nobody is clear on how much the cow gives because she has had some stress and now a different diet, new handlers, a grafted calf, etc.

I tend to believe that the calf was not getting enough milk, from the info given. 
Now, it can be some real trick to teach an older calf to nurse a bottle. If it was mine, I would likely put her to the bucket. 

How is she this morning?


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Put the calf back with the cow as Ronney suggested. Preferably in a small enclosed pen and if necessary tie the cow. Let the calf get what milk it can and keep calf starter feed available along with water for the calf. Try to bottle fed the calf each evening. If you continue the path you are in you are going to kill the calf with good intentions that are not working.


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Karen how's the calf? Today's status report please...Topside


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

Sorry, have been outside all day today. Thanks gone-a-milkin for understanding my story.

This morning we took the Jersey from the barn and brought her to the dog kennel where we put the calf. I fed her and the calf was able to nurse. I left the cow in there practically all day with her and the calf never attempted to nurse until later in the day I gave the Jersey some more feed, tied her and the calf attempted but got kicked every time and gave up.

I took the cow out of the pen.

I was able to get some milk down her this evening. Not much but definitely more than the other times. She was ok with me straddling her and would even rub my leg with her face. I would stick my finger down her mouth and then the bottle and then hunch over her. Seems more like she is just chewing on it than sucking.

The lady at the co-op said that if they won't take the bottle they won't take the bucket (and by bucket, I am guessing you mean the one with the nipple). I have poured some in a bowl for her but the fire ants were more interested in it than her.

I put some feed out for her tonight. she ate some, but seemed to stop when I walked away. (I went to work on the bottle).

I can't put feed for her when she is with the cow, because the cow will eat everything.

She has access to the grass below the kennel and hay. I moved the kennel this evening. Its kind of like a cow-tractor

You can see a picture of the dog kennel here: http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab102/kgetchel/wbaby-coop.jpg I took if off the baby chicken coop, as they are out and about anyway.


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

I was asked on another forum about her teeth.

she has bottom teeth and they seem pretty developed. Can we tell how old she is by that?


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Karen, I wish you could get some pics of the actual critters for us to look at. 

By a bucket, I just mean a bucket. Same as a water bucket.
How are the calfs poops? firm but mushy, or kinda squirty? What color? 

That might seem silly, but it helps to discern if she is getting enough to eat.
Does the calf have a bucket of water? Is she drinking any of that?


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

poops look like balls and dark brown. They looked moist.

She pooped two balls while I was feeding her tonight and then peed.

She has water, I don't see her drink it too much.

When the Cow was in there with her, all she did was lay there (the calf that is)


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

I will work on pictures tomorrow


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Okay, try to get pics. It could be that she is a bit dehydrated, but that is better then diarhea! 

Measure her water. See if she is drinking it. You could draw a line on the bucket or fill it to a certain spot, like a dent in the bucket. My theory being that if she can drink water out of a bucket, she can drink milk the same way.

I have had a few poor-sucking calves who did great with a bucket. It is not ideal, but whatever works, right? Or maybe this one is older then you think? hard to say. 

Cant wait to see pics. Get them on good flat ground, front, side, and rear shots.
With a bucket or some standard object for size comparison. If that isnt too much to ask.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Can you not tie the cow's foot to where she cannot kick? If I was getting kicked I probably would give up on trying to eat also. Get two lengths of rope. Make the cow a loop with one rope and put it around her neck. Take the second rope and tie one rear foot above the hoof. Take the loose end of that rope and pass it through the loop around the neck of the cow. Start pulling on the loose end until the cow lifts the tied foot forward and tie the rope to the neck loop to where she cannot get the foot back on the ground and is standing on 3 feet. Put the calf on the side where the cow's rear foot is still on the ground and get the calf up to the teat. It should be able to nurse without getting kicked!


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

Thanks,

I put 4 quarts of milk replacer in a bucket and put it out with her tonight. I tried to get her to stand, but she wouldn't budge. This is a nice bucket because it has measurements on it.

I had read that if you hold a cows tail up she won't kick, I tried that but didn't seem to work.

she is probably a hand taller than my yellow labs, if that helps till I can get the photos.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

So, now the calf is down? She wouldnt get up at all? 

Did you kick her (a little, not in the belly)?
Did you try to lift her at all?
Did you try really hard to roust her butt up? 

If the calf is down and not drinking anything, you will need to tube feed her. sigh.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Of course it is late on saturday night. Well, of COURSE the feedstore wont be open tomorrow. Yep. That's the way it always seems to go. :nod:
<stream of curses including the words veal and sausage> 

Dang it. Keep us updated, okay?


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

The only one here making any sense is Agman and nobody seems to be taking a blind bit of notice of what he is saying!

Karen, have you had any experience with cattle at all? and have you had any experience with mothering on calves? Are you set up to have either in terms of yards (corral) or a shed where the cow can be confined and tied up while you get the calf latched on to the cow? That dog run, while very good as far as dog runs go, is nowhere suitable for confining a cow and calf.

If I was a calf getting constantly booted I would sit down as well and refuse to get up - and this is what happens. The calf doesn't belong to the cow, it doesn't smell right, it doesn't look right and she won't want a bar of it. *You* have to be the agressive one and make this work and this means following Agman's instructions. Not the way I do it because I have the set-up for it but the result is the same. Calves drink very little water so leaving a bucket of milk replacer for it is useless, it's a calf and doesn't know what it is. It doesn't have that power of reasoning.

All calves are born with lower teeth (milk teeth) and are not indicative of age.

As a matter of interest, why did you buy the cow and calf? Was it to milk as a housecow.

And sorry gone-a-milkin, I know your trying to help but all this -----arsing around is going to end up with a dead calf at this rate of knots.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

How is the calf this morning?


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm with the grafting crowd (and would also suggest an application or two of OhNoMore), however, you've gotten to the point you NEED to bottle feed a few times to get something in this calf. A calf needs some fight to be able to graft onto a new cow.
And a calf that's down and won't get up is not a good sign. _Don't_ wait them out to "get hungry." 
Your calf is going to die.

*To get a calf to take a bottle: * (like francis said) Straddle the calf's head (you both are facing the same direction) so you can control it. Slip your finger between their jaw and pry it open enough to get the bottle in. Have the nipple hole big enough that you can actually squeeze some milk in if needed. 

If the calf has enough fight that they back away from you, keep going with them until they jam themselves into a corner. 
Once you have the nipple in and you're getting milk in, start working the throat/bottom of the mouth to stimulate the swallow reflex. Basically do a small sweep/squeeze massage type of motion at the same pace a calf nurses. Gently.

*To get a calf up:* Rub their back. Back and forth, up the length of the spine.
Again, this is a reflex thing. Mama licks their backs to get them up, so that's what you're doing. Put some effort into it, if needs be. And scratch. A calf that's down often needs the greater stimulation to respond.
Lift them if possible.

If your calf _won't_ get up, try the taking-a-bottle recommendations with them laying in the hay (I've done this numerous times for the first nurse or two with a sickly calf)

*Tubing/drenching*: Finally, if you absolutely can not get your baby to take a bottle, you might have to tube them. And tubing (drenching) is definitely not for beginners. My husband has been ranching his entire life and tubed more calves than he can even begin to count. But just last spring he got the tube down into the lungs and drowned the calf. 
It's tricky! Get someone very experienced to help you.


And put her back with the cow. If the cow doesn't mind her, by all means, keep them together!!
After she's looking a little more lively again, work on grafting (and yes, calves will go back on a cow, even after they've been on bottles. We do it all the time. The sooner the better, though.)


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## Ebenezer (Jun 5, 2010)

Tie a dog on the outside of the pen where you're trying to graft a calf. The presence of the dog kicks in the maternal protection instinct for some cows and the battle is short. Tubing the calf is the easiest for you and the calf until it gets grafted or the calf learns to nurse well. I did not read everything very well above so I hope this is not a boring repeat.


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

Ok, 

Today went better. She did nurse off the Jersey this morning and I did maybe get a pint down her of the replacer.

To answer one question, I know nothing about cows, and tomorrow their barn should be done and they will move out of the kennel. I have been letting the Jersey out at night.

So back to this morning. Things seemed fine so far. We had to leave for a few hours, came back, neither of them touched the water. I cut a 55 gallon drum in half and filled it, if had some sort of soap in it, guess I didn't get all the smell out. So I went back to the other water. (though the calf did take a drink while I was in there.)

We did tied down the Jersey's leg as suggested. She was able to nurse and then I got another pint down her as suggested by standing over her and backing her in a corner.

She took a few nibbles at some left over "sweet mix" that the cow missed. not sure if she actually ate any or just moved it around.

we moved the kennel after taking out the Jersey and put fresh hay in, and she was nibbling on the hay.

I did take some pictures. I was very dark today because of rain and late when I got to take the pictures.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Well there they are! 
I am glad to hear they are doing better today.

That cow doesn't look like she makes much milk. 
Poor thing. Keep feeding her!
Also good to keep supplementing the calf. 

Thanks for the pix. They help so much.


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

Oh, after I took the Jersey out tonight. the calf was a little more animated. she even did a kick and jump, which I thought was good


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

The calf looks to be in good condition, considering the week she has had.
Just wait until she really perks up. LOL!


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## PKBoo (Apr 10, 2008)

I've only had 3 calves, so I'm definitely a newbie here... but what I do to get them to eat grain is wet my fingers and get them covered in grain, then put my fingers in their mouth. They start to suck, then realize it's something else, and kind of lick like a dog with peanut butter on the roof of their mouth. I do it with about a handful, then try again the next day, and the next. They finally "get it." Not sure if this is the way others do it, but it's worked for me so far 

Good luck. Momma Jersey looks very skinny to me - anybody else think so too? I read yesterday that a lactating cow drinks 50 gallons of water a day!!!!!! Not sure if that's correct, but make sure she's got plenty of water too.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

That cow needs some decent feed introduced to her slowly and fed adequately. Having seen the pic it is no surprise that her milk output is so low. She is in poor condition to be nursing a calf. That is a nice calf and you need to do your best to keep it healthy. My recommendation is to now let the cow provide what milk she can and cease the human interference. Keep calf starter available to the calf and other than being a little pricey it would not hurt to let the cow have some of it. What type of hay is that you are feeding? It appears to have a lot of stems and few leaves indicating poor quality.


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

Agmantoo,

so are you saying, stop feeding her, and just let the cow feed her? Our neighbor made a comment to my husband that he thinks she is drying up and won't be supplying milk much longer.

Doesn't surprise me about the hay, but I think most of the hay around here is like that.

is there a special type of hay that I need to get?


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all their help.

I feel better that you all think the calf looks good.

This morning we had another calf. We have 8 other cows that share our pasture. They are our neighbor's cows, except on that my aunt bought off of him for us, her name is Lucy. About 6am I saw her in the field with her new baby. It was just laying there. About 9am, we were getting ready to leave for a few hours and the calf was still laying down, but in another spot not far. Our neighbor said he was coming to check on them. When we got back our neighbor was waiting for us (he is 82 and just had a pacemaker put in), he said the calf was in the same spot, mind you it was now about 3pm. I was nervous all day till we got home, it had been raining before we got home and in the 70s which to me is cold now.

Lucy left him there all day. We took him and started feeding him colostrum, because we didn't feel he ate anything. About that time Lucy came back and was looking for him. He was shakey standing but soon followed her all the way into the neighbor's pasture and had to cross a brook and climb a pretty steep hill, and he did it. we followed via the road keeping an eye on him. It was there that she let him nurse.

I was nervous that I would have two calves to worry about, but am thankful that one worry is over.

Then this morning also, found one of my chickens with serious feet problems. Thought she was setting last night, but I disturbed her this morning and saw the problem. Even as she hobbled, I was able to catch her after some chasing. That is really for the poultry forum, but have her on some medication right now.

Who says "Life on the farm is really laid back...." They were lying!!!


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

agmantoo said:


> That cow needs some decent feed introduced to her slowly and fed adequately. Having seen the pic it is no surprise that her milk output is so low. She is in poor condition to be nursing a calf. That is a nice calf and you need to do your best to keep it healthy. My recommendation is to now let the cow provide what milk she can and cease the human interference. Keep calf starter available to the calf and other than being a little pricey it would not hurt to let the cow have some of it. What type of hay is that you are feeding? It appears to have a lot of stems and few leaves indicating poor quality.


Agree! The calf is lovely but the condition of the cow is poor and I would again follow Agmans recommendations in both getting her condition up and in dealing with the calf. 

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

Great news today.

I went out to see her. I had just gotten back from the co-op with dairy feed. So I hadn't let the Jersey in with her yet.

I went in and she got up and started licking me and sucking on my arm and pants. So I hurried inside and made her bottle. She ended up sucking down two whole bottles and still looking for more. I put some feed in, but didn't give her any more bottle.

My pants are drenched from her sucking on me, but I am happy.

neighbor said just feed her two bottles (it is a 2 quart bottle) twice a day and leave some feed. Will that be enough for her?

Should I just let the cow dry up? She is supposed to be bred. I don't really understand what Agmantoo is saying. She isn't providing enough milk for the calf, so if I don't feed the calf she won't get enough.

I gave the cow some feed this morning and left her in the pasture.

Thanks
Karen


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

The cow with the new calf is just doing what cows do and does not need you interfering. Not to offend you but you are creating some of these issues. This response is intended to be a wake up call and to not have you flee from this site. Clean water is a must. For example, you should have made certain that the water was suitable and free of any odor or taste. It is your responsibility to assure that the hay is up to par. Just look at the restraint that you used to secure the cow's hind leg. Did you follow the recommendation of how to secure the leg? Had she not be a calm animal you could have had a real problem in the dog kennel, both human and animal injury. Could you not see that the cow was a lot thinner than the average cow? As a woman was it not apparent that the animal was to thin to provide milk in abundance? As animal owners we all have responsibilities. Part of those responsibilities are to prepare ourselves to meet the requirements of the animals with a informed mind and a stockpile of supplies. In the near future until you get some experience please get some opinions here BEFORE proceeding. You are about to create a scour problem with the calf and possibly a mastitis problem with the cow! You failed to follow your neighbors recommendation of the amount to feed. If you do not understand what I am saying just ask for clarification. I do not think I have ever refused to reply to anyone.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Karen, I will tell you what *I* would do, if I was in your situation.

I would get this cow preg-checked, asap. Find out if she is bred back.
If she is, then I would dry her up. You need to know if she is bred.
I would not dry her up until I know she is pregnant.

While the vet is there, I would have her blood drawn and sent in for complete testing.
Make sure she is not this thin due to one of the ugly diseases that cattle can get.

Granted, this is free advice over the internet, so you get what you pay for. 

In the meantime, I would continue to let the calf nurse once a day, and supplement the calf with bottles the other feeding. That is just me, and others will surely disagree. 

Good luck with them both.


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

Thanks Gone-a-milkin


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

Agmantoo,

I really don't understand half of what you are saying.

You say I should have noticed she didn't have enough milk...Have you been reading my posts? My first posts said that more than once.

As for not following advise on tying her leg, you are correct, because I can't even figure out how to put the tie up on her head never mind complicating it by running it down her body.

As for not following my neighbors advise on feeding rations, I have no idea what you are talking about. I gave her two bottles and that was it, he said not to give her more and I didn't.

As for the water, I had that same bucket out in the pasture and they sucked it dry overnight. I brought it into the pen and filled it up and stuck my nose in it and didn't smell anything.

I may be in-experienced, but I don't think that I am irresponsible as you make me out to be. I expected to get a cow and calf that were bonded, not a cow that never met the calf till the morning she came and was not interested in her milking off of her.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Karen~ the leg tying. What he is telling you is that by tying her leg to the dog kennel, if she had freaked and decided to fight she would have pulled that dog kennel over onto herself, the calf, you if you were in there. She would not then stop and wait for help, she would freak out even more, thrash about until the cow, the calf, and anybody attempting to rescue the animals were maimed.

He is saying you have to look at a situation~ imagine the worst possible outcome....and then insure it can't happen. He told you to tie the cows leg TO THE COW....not to something she could pull over.

The bottle. You misunderstood your neighbor or your neighbor does not know as much as he would have you believe. 4 quarts at one feeding is too much for her. She may scour. 2 quarts would be an appropriate feeding for her IF she was used to getting that much. With her recent feeding issues probably a little less would be better and work up to 2 quarts a feeding~ 2 feedings a day. 4 quarts all together~ 2 in the morning, 2 at night.

Good luck
Get the cow to a vet or have the vet come out~ she looks bad
It says you are in Alabam~ is that for Alabama? If your near Cullman Alabama I can recommend a very good vet who will do farm calls for an additional fee.


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Just got home, read Cheryl's third paragraph over and over. It's important...Topside


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

And thank Topside for the information~ he's the one who told me!

Really~ Listen to the people here. I bought 4 sickly calves in May 09~ they almost died. I was here everyday asking a million questions. These people~ all of them (agmantoo as well!) helped me save all 4 calves. Thanks everyone!


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

Thanks Cheryl,

My neighbor came by when I was feeding the second bottle and said not to feed anymore. I had mis-read the directions on the bag. There was something about 4 quarts on it and...

When she came, I had two halters for her. One didn't fit, and I asked the guy to put the other one on her, figuring he was a cow guy he should know how to put it on, but he couldn't figure it out. I took it back.

I picked her up another one today from the co-op that is a lot easier to figure out. I can't make one out of rope, can't remember all the twists and turns and what have you.

Thanks for translating


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Cheryl did you get my bill yet??? If not keep looking...Your friend to the North...


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

LOL! Your ever down in this area you let me know and we'll BBQ! Couple more months and we'll BBQ Burger (one of the steers you helped me save)!


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## CCCJerseys (Apr 3, 2010)

Your cow is in terrible shape! I don't know if you got her this way or if that is what is thought to be normal where you are or if she is old or if she is sick. I don't mean to sound awful but there is no reason for this to be put in any other way.
You seem to be trying or you would not be asking for help here. 
Get some hay in frount of this cow 24 hours a day. Good quality hay. Then get a vet out there ASAP. To help you figure a proper grain ration.


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

Thanks CCCJerseys,

I just got her Wednesday, and that is the way she came.

There is one vet nearby that does house calls. I put a call into them, and so should hear from him tomorrow--was out today.


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

Hey Cheryl, I am in North Alabama too (Boaz)


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

I looked at craig's list for hay. someone is selling "good horse hay", now a new neighbor down the street (hasn't moved in yet) who raises horses, said horse hay is different than what everyone is growing here.

What kind of hay is good hay? If it is horse hay is that better quality than just regular hay?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

CCCJerseys, if you refer to the previous thread, which GAM provided a link to, you'll see that there was some concern that the cow had been plumped up with water prior to purchase but I was also quite surprised when I saw how thin the little cow actually is.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Boaz~ Probably too far for my vet. Still you need a vet to see her. She is a sorry looking girl. Can I ask who you got her from? So that I never make the mistake of buying from them! Is it the guy in Addison who often runs ads? Hope not~ I've talked to him and he sounded like a nice guy.

Yes horse hay is better quality. Most of what you find around here is just grass hay. Thats what I grow in my field too. I feed it to my horses, all my animals....but it is not as high a quality as a field planted and maintained just to grow quality hay. My animals, including my horses, are already fat and sassy so going the winter with the mediocre quality hay my field produces is fine. Your cow needs better quality~ she is too far run down.

Gotta go~ people are here to help hold my heifers still and draw blood to see if they are pregnant! Hope they are!


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## cjb (May 2, 2006)

Wow, good for you for trying and for seeking advice. 

On HT, sometimes the most educated answers come in blunt terms. As somewhat of a novice myself, I prefer the directness as it helps me to avoid mistakes that could cause injury or loss to the animal and possible injury to a human.

I have had a family Jersey for 3 years and have "raised" 3 calves. I don't think I have ever seen a cow in that poor of condition. While it is already "spilled milk" (pun deliberate), it would have been best to post a pic of any cow you were considering purchasing. Nobody on this forum would have recommended that you bring that cow home unless it was purely considered a rescue. You may now spend any money saved by getting a cheaper cow on bills to make her well. 

Also, as a beginner, it is concerning to me that you got a cow with horns. I know that's a controversial opinion but, when making such innocent and well-intended mistakes such as tying her to a mobile fence and accidentally doubling the calf's ration..... I suggest that you get some advice on handling a horned jersey. If she IS bred (God help her), her hormones will be raging when she delivers and she could really hurt you or someone else.

That calf is stinking cute, by the way. What kind is it?


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Horse hay is usually from the fall cutting and should be nearly weed, stem and briar free...$2.00 a bale in my area....Topside


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## cjb (May 2, 2006)

Asking the experts here... would she not do better on alfalfa, after a transition? I know alfalfa keeps my Jerseys in great condition.


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## mamahen (May 11, 2002)

On bottle feeding - now that she will take it, one thing you should know, calves will beg, butt, and suck on anything once they finish the bottle!! Don't let them fool you into giving more!

One 2 quart bottle in the morning, after she finishes it, put a small handful of calfmanna or sweet feed in her slimy, milky mouth . Hide the bottle, or she will want more!

Repeat in the evening (about 12 hours apart) And always fresh water and hay or grass available. 

I usually do 2 or 3 bags of replacer and then wean. 

The cow does look poor. Look up body scale conditions for cows, it will help to know what your shooting for.

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/dairy/facts/00-109.htm


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

The cow came from a young guy in Trenton, GA. I saw the ad, and we placed a call. I was out with the chickens the next morning when he called and when I came in my husband said he bought me a cow.

I fed her the second bottle (and didn't let her quite finish it) She did beat me up pretty badly for that. it was less than 12 hours apart. I had somewhere to be. I saw some diarrhea, I think was right after that. She had moved to where the water bucket was and I could smell something, and saw it in the hay.

Agmantoo, said something now about scours, and now has me worried. 

I don't have a problem with directness, it saves me from having to interpret. 

I don 't know if I have seen alfalfa hay, I have seen fescue (maybe I have that one wrong--I think that is a lawn grass), or Bermuda, or what I just saw that was labeled horse hay. I know that the lady that will be moving down the street from me, was doing research for her horses and said she was having trouble finding a hay source. Her property comes with a hay field, but it is just grass


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

I am sorry that I worry so much, but its because its all new to me.

I went out on my night rounds. looked the whole floor for signs of diarrhea and didn't find any. she did pass some stinky gas while I was in there and tried very desperately to nurse off of me.


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## CCCJerseys (Apr 3, 2010)

Karen in Alabam said:


> Thanks CCCJerseys,
> 
> I just got her Wednesday, and that is the way she came.
> 
> There is one vet nearby that does house calls. I put a call into them, and so should hear from him tomorrow--was out today.


Okay, but your plee for help SHOULD be for your cow. I am not sure you are getting this. YOUR cow has NOTHING to give she is one step from deaths door and for what ever reason people are side stepping this.
Get the calf off of her and have her tested for disease and feed,feed,feed in the mean time.
Your calf is not your problem. Do you see this?? I am so very afraid you do not get this.
(sigh)


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## CCCJerseys (Apr 3, 2010)

Karen in Alabam said:


> I have seen fescue (maybe I have that one wrong--I think that is a lawn grass), or Bermuda, or what I just saw that was labeled horse hay. I know that the lady that will be moving down the street from me, was doing research for her horses and said she was having trouble finding a hay source. Her property comes with a hay field, but it is just grass


Fescue is poison to horses and cows. Alfalfa is what this cow needs (if) she isn't diseased. And Brome and green grass, or bermuda,or anything, is a start.
Oh my, I will give you some credit for trying but I would really feel better if you realized just what kinda shape she is in. 
If your calf is taking the bottle at 2quarts 2x's a day get it off of this poor cow. You either have bought yourself an extreme case of neglect or a very diseased cow.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Here is my take on the animals
The cow is very thin obviously. She appears to me to be in fair health. Good feed and care and she will recover.
When the calf was not taking a bottle the only way for a novice to keep both animals was IMO for the calf to get what milk it could from the cow and to give the calf a chance each evening to take the bottle and at the same time give the calf and cow some bagged feed. The calf would have probably remained hungry but would have survived and the cow giving such a small amount of milk would not have succumbed with increased feed. My concern is the irregular eating by the calf and the overfeeding yesterday. The cow just looks bad but will recover. In two months with good feed you will not think you have the animal you started with. At this juncture I am still not satisfied the calf can be bottle fed by a newbie calf owner. Fescue has its problems but more cattle are raised/fed off fescue than any other single species of grass. I suggest that you limp along with what you are now doing but with improved hay and added grain. Remain alert to scours (the term for diarrhea in cattle) occurring in the calf. Early treatment is a must. If the manure indicates a problem developing then you need to get supplies on hand to treat.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Fair comment Agman but something has been niggling me about all of this and today the penny dropped.

I/We have been assuming that this cow is a reasonably fresh calver - but is she? She is also supposed to be in calf and I'm starting to wonder if she hasn't already reared one calf to weaning and is now in the process of drying off while being several months along in pregnancy? While this cow has obviously not been looked after, this would go some way to explaining her condition. Anybody got any thoughts on that scenario?

Karen, Agman is right. With good feed you won't recognise this cow in a couple of months. And what feed you give her will be what is at hand - I put sick cows on my lawn if needs must. Pug holes in the lawn are nothing in comparison to a dead cow Feed her what hay you can get, never mind that it is supposedly "horse" hay, what grass you have available and slowly introduce her to grain or meal. When you have the vet out, ask them to palpate her to find out if she is pregnant or not, and if she is, how far along. I'm beginning to think this is very important.

And good on you for dealing with some fairly blunt messages, mine not the least of them

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I agree Ronney. We don't know enough about the cow. How long has she been milking? No cow in that condition can give much milk.

We all started somewhere. We've all made mistakes. 

Look for the alfalfa hay - or alfalfa/grass mix. Horse hay is okay...it's just made for horses not for cows producing milk. If you can't find it - look for alfalfa cubes at the feed store. The ones here are bagged with pictures on horses on the front. I soak them in water for my milk cow and then feed them to her in her manger while I am milking her. Don't feed her very much at first, but do find something. I am not sure if alfalfa pellets would work or not.

Any hay should be leafy and green. It should smell sweet, not moldy, or full of tough stems. Any changes in diet should be made slowly - that's why not to give a hungry calf too much milk. Their digestive system can't handle it and they get scours. Calves will always think they need more milk. ALWAYS. Don't let them fool you. 

If that were my cow/calf -I don't think I would even try to put the calf on the cow. Pull it and bottle feed it. I know you are inexperienced at it, but you can do it. The question would be if you could afford to bottle feed it or not. DO not buy the cheap milk replacer - you need 20% fat (or more). You can sell it if needed. It is a nice looking calf. If the cow is bred she needs her strength to develop a calf and she is WAY, WAY behind in that respect. Trying to get her to nurse a calf too might be too much on her. She needs help fast. 

She also needs a LOT more water. Maybe you are filling her bucket more than 2x a day, but a milking cow needs around 40 GALLONS of water a day. If it's hot, she might need more. 

Keep asking questions - and listen to the folks here. Some of them have been doing this for a long time and they have trained many of the rest of us. 

BE SURE TO POST a picture of her in a couple of months!!!!! Then we can all ooh and ahhh over her (and your) progress!


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## CCCJerseys (Apr 3, 2010)

Karen,
Please know that I realize that you bought your cow this way and that you are doing the best you can or know how to help her.
I am not blaming you for her condition. She may just be alot older than they told you.
Don't stop posting and don't stop trying. 
We all have to start somewhere in all projects and learning about them.
You just happen to get a cow that desprately needs alot of TLC and time.
I am too abrubt most of the time. Sorry 'bout that.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Ronney stated "I/We have been assuming that this cow is a reasonably fresh calver"

This was not my assumption. Mine was that this cow was a milk source for numerous calves and that she had nearly been milked to death. She may be pregnant then again she could have failed to cycle due to poor body condition. She could be going dry to preserve her own life. My inputs were to try to save both animals and to take some load off a novice. Provided the calf doesn't scour everything should be OK regardless.


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

Ok, Thanks for everyone's input.

Calf is fine, poops are back to normal (that is wet, and not brainy balls like when she first came)

I have her on one bottle twice a day. Her activity level has increased and jumps and bucks. Once she decided that she would take the bottle, she has been very aggressive with it. I don't know how long it should take her to drink it, but she drinks it pretty fast. I do hold the bottle low like in the pictures someone posted.

I have been feeding the cow feed. I started with "sweet mix" which I got from Tractor Supply. They don't really cater dairy down here, as most cows are beef.

I ran out and decided to call the co-op which opens an hour earlier than Tractor Supply and they had Dairy feed. They called it the Calf Manna that I heard on here, but the bag doesn't say that. Just says Dairy feed.

She has access to all the grass hay she can eat. I have turned her loose in the pasture, so she is also getting fresh grass. There is a brook with plenty of water in it that the cows cross several times a day. She is out running around with the angus that live in the pasture.

her bag looked fuller than it ever has. She was in with the calf all night, but I know the calf got nothing of it.

I did milk her until she started kicking (not like she kicks the calf, mostly just stomping) my dog came by and agitated us both. I should have tied him up, I thought when he didn't follow me after I told him not to, I was good (the other one obeyed).

I won't milk her again.

I put a call into a vet that does house calls, but because I don't have a chute, he doesn't want to do it.

I will have to arrange to borrow a trailer (couple of neighbors have them) and take her to the vet. that shouldn't be a problem. Then I have to get a driver. (I have never driven towing anything.)

I will let you know how that goes.


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## DianeWV (Feb 1, 2007)

Karen I'm real glad to hear that things are really looking up and everything is moving in a positive direction now. Good for you!!! Take care.:sing:


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## stifflej (Aug 11, 2008)

Great thread at the perfect time. I was going through the same thing at the same time so this thread was perfect. But now I have a question. How long should it take for the calf to take 2 quarts from the bottle? My concern is ours is getting it to fast, and want to make sure it won't cause any problems (we modified the nipple when trying to get the calf to take it so he could get a taste of the milk). Just wondering if I should replace the nipple with a slower one.

Thanks.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm not sure there is "too fast."  At least not in an older calf

By the time a bottle calf is a week old or so, I'm getting them on the bucket (not a tit-bucket, just a standard bucket).
Once they get the hang of it, they drain the bucket in about a minute.


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## Jay (Feb 5, 2008)

Why did you stop milking this cow? Cows kick, there are restraints made for that. If you put the calf on her, she will produce milk. It will take time and work from you, but it can be done!!

I'm wondering why you bought her in the first place....you're not using her for milk (nurse-cow or milking yourself), and not sure if she's bred back. :shrug:


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

I stopped milking her because everyone was concerned about her health. She will not accept the calf she was given.

I did buy her for a milk cow, but don't want to jeopardize her safety for a gallon of milk.

Doctor came out. Couldn't get her on a trailer, she freaked out just seeing it coming. Another neighbor has a chute, so I walked her over there this morning. Doc just left.

He didn't do blood work, didn't think it was necessary. He said he couldn't get his arm up into her as far as he wanted, but said he could feel the ovaries, but nothing else, so she isn't pregnant.

The doctor felt that she was thin due to as he put it "lack of groceries" He felt in a month or so she should be fine.

He also said by looking at her teeth, she is about 6 or 7 years old.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Jay, the little cow is far too thin and it would be much harder to put weight on her if she's being milked and given her condition, she may very well have absorbed or slipped a calf is she was bred.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

karen,
I think you are doing just fine. That cow will be up to snuff in no time! Kind of glad she isn't pregnant, that will make your job much easier. good luck- keep us posted with pictures of her progress!!!


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Karen in Alabam

Your inputs from the vet did not drift far from my comments above. Here is something the vet may not have mentioned. Dairy cows probably suffer more from mineral deficiencies than beef cattle. Your cow has had pressure put on her to produce a lot milk. In addition to the feed being inadequate she is probably lacking in adequate vitamins and minerals. These shortages create low pregnancy rates, high levels of mastitis, and high bacteria cell counts in the milk. To avoid current and future health problems you need to make available a good supplement. I suggest that you locate a source from a feed processing plant that supplies supplement feed to dairies specific to your area. Get a supplement that is in loose form, not a cake or block, and make that available to the cow free choice. A 50 lb bag should costs less than $25. Such a supplement will help offset any deficiency that may exist currently and offset shortages in future feed. This will aid the animal in becoming pregnant and in the quality of her future milk.


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

Thanks Agmantoo.

I do have block licks out. one sulfer and one mineral with dde or something like that which is supposed to help with calving. We have been buying them for the other cows because we like them.

I think there is a local feed place, I know it is for Chicken feed, they may do other stuff as well, will check.

I have only lived in Alabama for 3 years now, so don't know the whole state, but the only dairies that I know about are over an hour away and there are only 2 of them. I could ask them what they use.

Is is ok if the beef cows get it? We have several beef cows on the property. Our neighbor recently got rid of the main bull and two non-productive cows to the sale barn. (the one had miscarriages the last two times). But there is one more that lost her last two calves after birth. I was getting the licks for them, but if the loose is better and they all can benefit from it, I will go that way all together and stop the blocks.

he was just getting plain salt blocks, but we have always given them the mineral and lately the one with the other stuff. Our pastures join and are open into each other. So they are almost like ours (one is).


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Karen in Alabam

Mineral blocks and salt blocks are too limiting in there use as it takes excessive effort to access the contents. The cheap blocks sold by places like Tractor Supply have insufficient minerals in them and they are not formulated for your specific location. Beef cattle can consume that same supplements as the dairy. If I have a cow that loses her calf I ship her. There are no repeat opportunities. In the long sticky above regarding rotational grazing you may find some ideas/inputs that could be helpful.


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

I want to thank everyone for all their help.

I have an updated picture of Yo (the Jersey) and Charlie (the Charolais calf)

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab102/kgetchel/The%20Farm/yo-9-27.jpg[/IMG



[IMG]http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab102/kgetchel/The%20Farm/charlie-9-27.jpg

While Yo is not fat, I think she has gained weight. Many times when I go out to feed her she is waiting in the stall.


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)




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## TSYORK (Mar 16, 2006)

Quite an amazing transformation! Great job getting that cow back on its' feet!


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## TK04 (Apr 8, 2009)

Wow! I am far from an expert but the change is incredible. I would have a hard time believing it is the same cow that changed that much in such a short time. You have done a fantastic job!


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

WOW! I had to go back and look at her before again...you have done an amazing job! Well done.


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Nice job Karen...Top


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## triple divide (Jan 7, 2010)

On ground like I'm seeing in your pictures, you had better worm them. 

I disagree with another forum member, this animal most likely did not originate from a dedicated dairy causing stress to her frame. 

Indications for my assumtion:

1. She has her horns. No dedicated American dairy farmer leaves hornes on his cattle these days. The reasons are obvious.

2. She lacks good dairy type desirable on today's modern farms. Her udder (even in her obvious poor condition), topline (the general flow from her shoulders through her withers, hooks and pins to her tail) frame and hoof condition are not indicitive of proper herd management/maintanence or good selective breeding.This is not to be construed in any way as a hack on you Kareni n Alabam. You have done a fine job saving these two animals and I commend you.

3. I didn't read every single post made, so if this is repition, forgive me. Your cow looks severely wormy and lousy at the same time. No dedicated American dairy farmer would alow either condition to persist.

I therefore disagree she is stressed from being in dairy service or even over milking from calves nursing on her. I think she needs worm and parisite treatment. I don't know how you acquired her and (again) I couldn't bear reading every post. So, if I'm wrong I do apologize.


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

She was wormed by the vet when he came to see her a few weeks back. He gave her a shot, not the liquid kind you put on their backs.

We still think she is beautiful.

Thanks


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

The cow is now in condition to start to cycle and to be bred.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Of COURSE she is beautiful. 

She looks to be coming along nicely.
Good job with them both.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Karen~ she looks great!

But I think you should worm her again too. The injection the vet gave her was good for the life cycle that the wormer effected. But I don't think any of them effect ALL the life cycles~ so if your sure or reasonably sure she had a heavy worm load you best bet is to worm her again NOW to catch the eggs that hatched since the last worming~ then again one more time in 2 or 3 weeks to catch any stragglers hatching still. I think three wormings in a row should do you~ then move to once ever 3 to 6 months as needed while she is being well maintained. I would think Cydectin the pour on would be fine. It's expensive to buy but lasts a long time and does a good job.

Good luck~
And again~ WOW she looks better!!!


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## triple divide (Jan 7, 2010)

Yes, she is indeed beautiful. When I wrote "lousy", I meant that in the literal sense.. she looks to be infested with lice.

I will reiterate; You have done a fine job. For not having any experience with cows you should rightfully feel proud.

I meant no slight toward you whatsoever. I want that to be clear. 

I'm glad the vet treated her for parasites. Keep up with a strict treatment program and she will reward you with even further gains and production.


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## DianeWV (Feb 1, 2007)

Now there you go!! Here's a thumbs up to you Karen! Hope things continue in a positive progression. Take care.


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

triple divide said:


> 3. I didn't read every single post made, so if this is repition, forgive me. Your cow looks severely wormy and lousy at the same time. No dedicated American dairy farmer would alow either condition to persist.
> 
> I therefore disagree she is stressed from being in dairy service or even over milking from calves nursing on her. I think she needs worm and parisite treatment. I don't know how you acquired her and (again) I couldn't bear reading every post. So, if I'm wrong I do apologize.



In this case, perhaps you could have at least read far enough to see how well she is doing now and not come down so hard on the OP
She is doing MUCH better and that in itself is a testament to the care she is getting.

I see that we posted at the same time...I appreciate your new tone.


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## triple divide (Jan 7, 2010)

Trisha in WA said:


> In this case, perhaps you could have at least read far enough to see how well she is doing now and not come down so hard on the OP
> She is doing MUCH better and that in itself is a testament to the care she is getting.
> 
> I see that we posted at the same time...I appreciate your new tone.


Lady, I may not read _every post_ (I admited that) but what I read I comprehend.

There was no *"new tone"*. 

This is the internet. Communication is limited in so much as you cannot hear the tone of my voice, see my facial expressions, or read my body language. How are you able to detect a *"new tone"*. You can't. So don't attempt to correct me, or make another accusation toward me. Your little friends on the internet might be impressed, but I'm not.

I'm the only one that hit it out of the park on the parisite problem during the course of the post. Apparently *you* missed the crux of my complexly woven paragraphs.

Karen in Alabam, I apologize having to write this in an otherwise informative thread you started. I mean no offence toward you. Again, job well done.


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

CJB, get the fire hose charged, things are getting hot...


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Triple divide

If you can detect lice on this cow in the picture you certainly posses an uncanny ability. The animal is recovering from abuse but the pic does not demonstrate what you described IMO. 



Karen in Alabam said:


>


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

I wasn't offended by anyone, and didn't even pick up on the lousy comment.

we hadn't noticed any lice on her, flies yes. I have brushed her a bunch of times and never noticed anything. I will make sure everyone in the pasture gets wormed this week


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Karen, once again be proud of your success. Those little black dots are those tiny flies we all see this time of year, keep up the good work....Enjoy your cow and calf, nice to see positive threads posted...Congrats.


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## triple divide (Jan 7, 2010)

agmantoo said:


> Triple divide
> 
> If you can detect lice on this cow in the picture you certainly posses an uncanny ability. The animal is recovering from abuse but the pic does not demonstrate what you described IMO.


Well, Agmantoo, if you read my post (you did of course), you know I said she *looks* lousy.



> 3. I didn't read every single post made, so if this is repition, forgive me. Your cow *looks* severely wormy and lousy at the same time. No dedicated American dairy farmer would alow either condition to persist.


Now, you're obviously a cow man. You tell me, does the cow in this post strike you as being free of parisites..?



> #30 08/29/10, 09:47 PM
> Karen in Alabam Join Date: Jul 2010
> Posts: 71
> 
> ...


My point was obvious. The cow was not suffering from over-taxing in any manner beit from a production line or nursing calves. She looked sick from *parisites*. I mentioned lice as well (sorry I didn't elaborate on this for you ,cows do get lice, as I'm sure you know) on a hunch. I was looking at the same picture you were... 

By the way, how precisely did you arrive at your conclusion she is over worked from nursing too many other calves? 



> This was not my assumption. Mine was that this cow was a milk source for numerous calves and that she had nearly been milked to death.


Now then,* that* is a story I want to hear! Notice how I didn't parcel your assertion? Extend me the same courtesy if it's not too much trouble.

Edited to add:

Agmantoo.. lack of worming of cattle* is* abuse in my book. Get my point?


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

I have NOT read much of this thread but let me jump in here and say that's a good looking jersey cow. If you compared her to mine she would score at the top of the body condition chart. Some jerseys are just not easy keepers and can never be fattened up while in milk in my opinion. ( I happen to have a few of them that I have wormed, wormed, and wormed again) (not counting taking fecal samples to the vet, drawed blood, and kept immunizations up and current. ) As well, they have free choice mineral in front of them. 

I finally concluded to say, "Oh well, the milk tastes good."

I would welcome this critter on my place anyday!


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Triple divide
We know the cow was abused by the prior owner. That is obvious and is a given. It is a known fact the calf that came with the cow is not the calf that originally was planned to accompany her.

As per your quote of my previous response "This was not my assumption. Mine was that this cow was a milk source for numerous calves and that she had nearly been milked to death." 

The portion "This was not my assumption." That comment was a reply to a statement posted earlier by Ronney. The balance of the quote "Mine was that this cow was a milk source for numerous calves and that she had nearly been milked to death." The word "Mine" was my continued reply with the inferred word (assumption) not being repeated. Triple divide, this is where we differ. You come in here presenting an all knowing attitude imo whereas the majority of posters, though a few like me are sometimes to blunt, possibly demonstrate a little more tact. 

Now, to answer does the animal now appear to be loaded with parasites? No she does not. And why not? She does not have a coarse appearing hair coat. She appears alert. Her eyes are not obviously matted. And finally, to have gained the weight she has in the short duration indicates a lack of parasites. PS.. The weather has been hot and it is a known fact that lice cannot tolerate hot direct sunlight. Had she had lice they would only be viewed on the shaded underside of the animal this time of year in Alabama. 

Your question "By the way, how precisely did you arrive at your conclusion she is over worked from nursing too many other calves?"

If you will reread my statement I believe I stated it was my assumption. Please cease to attempt to take my posts out of context. It is doing neither of any good. The assumption came from my observation based on experience having viewed the first pic of the animal.


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

So should I worm her again? Should I just give them all a dose?

Weather has been very hot, it has been mid 90s up until this week.
Good to know signs to look out for.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

I think for your next update, you should start a new thread. 

It wont hurt them to get another worming.
I would do them all at the same time, yes.

I am really happy to see you still posting here, even after all the confusion. 
I like your cows name too, Yo. All the best luck with getting her bred back.


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## triple divide (Jan 7, 2010)

agmantoo said:


> Now, to answer does the animal now appear to be loaded with parasites?  No she does not. And why not? She does not have a coarse appearing hair coat. She appears alert. Her eyes are not obviously matted. And finally, to have gained the weight she has in the short duration indicates a lack of parasites. PS.. The weather has been hot and it is a known fact that lice cannot tolerate hot direct sunlight. Had she had lice they would only be viewed on the shaded underside of the animal this time of year in Alabama.


agmantoo,

I have waited since posting for your reply. I have been courtious. I have done nothing to offend, and have offered apologies both in advance and directly.

You accuse me of taking your words out of context, and yet this very quote of yours proves you are doing to me exactly what you are acusing me of. I gave a highlighted direct quote from post #30 (the OP's post!) . I never asked *"Does the animal now appear loaded with parisites?"* You persist in trying to redirect to this lice drama to a post I never referenced and a quote I never made. 

We were both making assumtions based on the same pic. I took it further to urge the OP to initiate a dedicated worming program. Perhaps my lice comment was illicit. Fine. Yours was as well. 

Please don't malign me and presume openly my motives. That's poor form.


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

gone-a-milkin said:


> I like your cows name too, Yo. All the best luck with getting her bred back.


I had wanted a couple of Jerseys and to name them "Yo" and "Wassup", its kind of a New Jersey thing. (I'm not from NJ but CT)

The problem with "Yo" it sounds just like "No", which I yell at her when she comes with those horns. So now I have learned to make another noise when I am displeased.


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