# Five Frame Nuc Problems



## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Had it about 5 weeks and put it in a 10 frame deep the day I got it. I have a deep on top to hold two feeders that rest on the unused portion of the frames and the inner cover is on top of that.

Just opened it up and all the bees are concentrated on the original 5 frames and are building comb on top of them There at least 5 and some or close to an two inches tall. There are only a few bees between the new frames. This is from looking in from the top as I did not remove the frames.

Should I checkerboard the new frames into the original 5 frames from the Nuc?


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

If I understand you correctly you should have an inner cover between the two boxes and the feed directly over the escape in the inner cover. What I do is once a frame is drawn out and mostly full of brood/honey I will move the full to the outside and replace them with a frame to begin drawing out and filling. If you have a frame that needs work the bees will work it more seriously if it is in the brood chamber area.
Hope this helps.

Wade


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Wade, Up until last week I did have the inner cover on top of the deep but did not feed over the escape as I was feeding from two jars. Using that setup, the bees were building comb in the hole opening and was about in inch high. I sent photos to the local bee association president and he told me to place the feeders over the unused portion of the frames and put the inner cover on top of the second deep.

Seems to me they just don't want to go into my frames.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Would these happen to be plastic foundation frames? I have ripped a lot of this stuff out of beginners hives. Bees do not like it and you have to introduce it 1 at a time during a good honey flow to get them to draw it. If you fill up a hive with it the bees ignore it. 

I've done some experiments with it. If I put a frame into the middle of the brood nest but there is not a good honey flow(even though I am feeding) they ignore it. Worse is that the queen will not cross over it to get to the other side of the box. She sees this sheet of plastic as being similar to the outside of the box. Now if you have 2 brood boxes of drawn comb she might go up into the 2nd box and then come back down on the other side of the sheet of plastic foundation so that she is laying on both sides, but not if she is in a single box. 

I had a beginning student that had checker boarded a nuc with plastic foundation and it just so happened that the queen was on 2 frames of drawn comb on the outside edge of the box then there was a frame of plastic foundation. That hive swarmed and swarmed and swarmed because the queen was restricted to just 2 frames.


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

po boy said:


> Wade, Up until last week I did have the inner cover on top of the deep but did not feed over the escape as I was feeding from two jars. Using that setup, the bees were building comb in the hole opening and was about in inch high. I sent photos to the local bee association president and he told me to place the feeders over the unused portion of the frames and put the inner cover on top of the second deep.
> 
> Seems to me they just don't want to go into my frames.



I don't know if this is right or wrong but what I do to feed from the top is leave the inner cover ans fill a plastic coffee container with feed,punch very small holes in the lid and invert it over the escape so no bees can actually access the upper box. If you allow bees into the upper box they will start drawing out comb on the under side of the telescopic cover.
I guess there's more than one way to do it and if you're not having that problem,go for it!

Wade


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I also say pitch the plastic, I have gotten a swarm to draw out plastic but it was all that was in the hive for them and then they only drew out 60 % of the frames. I was told if you paint the stuff with real bees wax they will some times draw it out too.

I use gallon jars with 1/16 inch holes in the lids set right over the intercover hole (mine run across the frames) put a second deep around the jar and put the outer cover on that. 

 Al


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

TxMex said:


> Would these happen to be plastic foundation frames? I have ripped a lot of this stuff out of beginners hives. Bees do not like it and you have to introduce it 1 at a time during a good honey flow to get them to draw it. If you fill up a hive with it the bees ignore it.
> 
> I've done some experiments with it. If I put a frame into the middle of the brood nest but there is not a good honey flow(even though I am feeding) they ignore it. Worse is that the queen will not cross over it to get to the other side of the box. She sees this sheet of plastic as being similar to the outside of the box. Now if you have 2 brood boxes of drawn comb she might go up into the 2nd box and then come back down on the other side of the sheet of plastic foundation so that she is laying on both sides, but not if she is in a single box.
> 
> I had a beginning student that had checker boarded a nuc with plastic foundation and it just so happened that the queen was on 2 frames of drawn comb on the outside edge of the box then there was a frame of plastic foundation. That hive swarmed and swarmed and swarmed because the queen was restricted to just 2 frames.


I'm not sure if they are plastic, it's thin and brittle. I did buy a box of 5 frames from the co op and have that box. I'll check it when I go to the barn.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

I just can't remember anything anymore..........................
Yes, the frames in the hive are wax.
The attached photo shows that the are drawing out one of the frames. They hadn't touched the two frames on the right, so I just replaced them with two new frames as I did have a SHB trap between those.
I removed the comb on top of the frames, removed the second deep and placed the inner cover on top of the bottom deep. So all I have there is just the 10 frame deep. Will add the second deep when they have drawn out at least two of them.
The frames from the co op are wax coated plastic. A this time they have not been used.
The second picture is from May 8


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

My recommendation is to try removing foundation from one of the frames and place that frame in the middle of the brood nest and see how they take to that. Once they start drawing out comb and have it at least 1/3rd drawn you can then introduce another frame between fully drawn frames. Keep rotating frames in until they are all drawn out. This is the best way to manage frames with foundation too. My bees love the foundationless. Bees tend to be very OCD (probably one reason why I like them so much). They really do not like a void in the middle of their brood nest. Just be sure that you go slowly so that you do not overwhelm them. I put a lot of information about this on my web site http://www.easttxbees.com/foundation.htm

My next recommendation is to remove the small hive beetle traps. If you are having small hive beetle issues your hive is in the wrong location. Time after time I have seen that moving hives out into full sun and away from any trees solves the problem. When I put the small hive beetle traps into my hives the place where I ended up having small hive beetle larvae was in the area of comb where the trap hangs down between the frames. It made the space too narrow for the bees to get to and it was solid with larvae. Here is another page giving details http://www.easttxbees.com/smallhivebeetle.htm


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

I wouldn't even be thinking about adding another deep until they had nothing left to work on the first one.If you add a box to them before they are needing it you create more problems.The smaller space the easier to control the temps,humidity,and invaders such as HB and moths.I find there is a small fine line between being too early and too late to add new boxes. Once you get to the point of adding supers the population should be strong enough to control that space but the brood chambers are critical to get right.Find that fine line and continually check for queen cells and you should be OK.

Wade


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

TxMex said:


> My recommendation is to try removing foundation from one of the frames and place that frame in the middle of the brood nest and see how they take to that. Once they start drawing out comb and have it at least 1/3rd drawn you can then introduce another frame between fully drawn frames. Keep rotating frames in until they are all drawn out. This is the best way to manage frames with foundation too. My bees love the foundationless. Bees tend to be very OCD (probably one reason why I like them so much). They really do not like a void in the middle of their brood nest. Just be sure that you go slowly so that you do not overwhelm them. I put a lot of information about this on my web site http://www.easttxbees.com/foundation.htm
> 
> My next recommendation is to remove the small hive beetle traps. If you are having small hive beetle issues your hive is in the wrong location. Time after time I have seen that moving hives out into full sun and away from any trees solves the problem. When I put the small hive beetle traps into my hives the place where I ended up having small hive beetle larvae was in the area of comb where the trap hangs down between the frames. It made the space too narrow for the bees to get to and it was solid with larvae. Here is another page giving details http://www.easttxbees.com/smallhivebeetle.htm


Thanks,

I took the SHB traps out early this morning. 

I was just reading about foundationless frames a couple days ago and think I would prefer to go that route. I'll take foundation out the ones I bought from the co op and introduce those. I'm also in the process of building another deep, two small supers and a few mini supers. Building the frames as well.


Again, thanks for your help.


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