# Report on calves, still need info?



## InHisName (Jan 26, 2006)

The calves have not eaten since this mornings 2 qt feeding- have a temp of 102t. Thank you Brower, for the help- still trying to get them food. What are the signs of dehydration? They did take a bit of water with some bolus' the vet gave- They will not stand up unless forced (they are about 2 days old) kind of lethargic. Yellow squirty bowels. I gave them a shot of selenium and penicilin, and a probiotic? bolus(good bacteria) and a bolus to firm their stools. Our vet has a cattle ranch- she said this would help. How long do you wait till tubing? 24 hours? Thought I'd wait to see if penecilin kicks in and try to give them their milk tonight. That bottle has been on the counter since noon- is it ok? Tomorrow I will give them a pill antibiotic- Any advice? Is this the norm for dealing with 24 hour dairy bulls? Want to do what we can to get them to live- thanks!


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Reading this http://www.das.psu.edu/user/dairy/newsletter/fullStoryPDA.cfm?newsID=644 will answer most of your questions. Ask your vet about using liquid Spectam Scour-Halt. I think you are aware that these calves can and will die swiftly if the problem is not brought under control. Good luck.


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## InHisName (Jan 26, 2006)

thanks- will read that. Got one to take 1 1/2 c milk- they seem better since antibiotic. Wondering about electrolytes-


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Keeping them hydrated is *essential*. Dehydration will kill them fast if they have the scours. You can get lactated ringers from the vet. He should be able to sell you the ringers and an IV set to give it with. You run the needle under the skin over the ribs and give them the ringers that way. It will work to keep them hydrated. Its not expensive and might very possibly save their life.


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## brouwer (May 18, 2006)

They need to get something in them yet tonight. Tomorrow will be to late. Especially if they will not stand. You will need to tube them their 2 qts milk and then two hours later 2 qts electrolytes. Same tomorrow. 2 qts milk in am and then two hours later electrolytes then 2 qts milk later afternoon and then 2 qts electrolytes two hours later again. What might help also is a big gulp of pepto. 

Electrolytes is like a gatorade for calves. Gatorade will also work if in a bind. 

What I have found that works great is a couple shots of LA-200. Its a medicine that can be purchased at the farm store.


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## brouwer (May 18, 2006)

I forgot to add - you could give them some banamine to help with the fever. It is basically like asprin. That will help make them feel much better.


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

Do what your vet tells you to do. No more, no less. They are the professional. I don't believe anyone on this board has a DVM degree.

Yellow scours is generally a sign of too rich of feeding.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Firstly I would have to agree with Ken - follow your vets instructions. They are the one with the knowledge, that is what you are paying them for.

Secondly, it continues to astound me that you people can end up with 2 day old calves and not expect to have problems with them. In this country it is illegal to sell a calf less than four days old and even then they come with the trauma problems of shifting a baby animal. I personally would not accept a calf less than this age unless there were mitigating circumstances such as the dam refusing it or has died. 

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## Valmai (Sep 29, 2004)

Also you should not mixing feedings of milk and electrolytes. Stick with the electrolytes until they perk up, and until the vet tells you different. You can test for dehydration by 'pinching' the skin, if it holds the 'pinch' shape for a while the calf is definitly dehydrated. For future reference ... when I bring home calves (min 4 days old) I always give them warm electrolytes for their first feed. If they are scouring the next day I keep them on the electrolytes for as long as needed.
Just read in the other thread that you were buying grain for them. Dont start with the grain until they are settled in and feeding well. Then start with VERY small amounts of grain and gradually build up to the correct amount.


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

I purchased a tube feeder from my vet. Plastic bag/bottle with a stainless steel tube and bulb at end. He showed me how to use it with calf's head between your thighs. Said to follow tongue downward. If it is in and the calf 'chews' on it, it is in the stomach. Have done OK, but once got it into the lungs. Calf was dead within minutes.


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## InHisName (Jan 26, 2006)

CALVES ARE BETTER! For the first time, they were up, playful and waiting for a bottle this morning. I appreciate the advice here. Our vet forgot to mention the dehydration bit, but after reading about it, gave them a homemade electolyte solution last night, and again this morning- which seems to help. (and the antibiotic) You can visibly see how the hydration helps them. (and much prayer) Will have to get a tube to have on hand- that sounds essential. Vet said a shot of pennecilin and selenium before transport is better, next time will be ready. Questions:
1. In a pinch, does anyone have an electrolyte recipe? The one I used was 8T honey, 2 t salt, 2 t baking soda in a gallon of water- but would corn syrup work as well as honey? (planning on ordering electrolytes from Jeffers, though)
2. If you do not have a tube, and need it, could one be made? What size is the tube? If we would have had one, would have used it, they were that bad. 
Thank you so much!
Teri


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## brouwer (May 18, 2006)

I am glad that they are much improved - just keep up with the hydration and they should be just fine.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

InHisName said:


> 1. In a pinch, does anyone have an electrolyte recipe? The one I used was 8T honey, 2 t salt, 2 t baking soda in a gallon of water- but would corn syrup work as well as honey? (planning on ordering electrolytes from Jeffers, though)
> 2. If you do not have a tube, and need it, could one be made? What size is the tube? If we would have had one, would have used it, they were that bad.


Wonderful news!!  
The electrolyte solution you describe is about the same as the one I use. Only I never measure anymore.
My calf tube feeder is just like the one that Ken describes except that mine has a flexible plastic tube instead of the metal one. I prefer the plastic tube. Our feed store sells both tube feeders(plastic tube or metal tube). They don't cost that much and are true lifesavers. I use mine for adult goats as well as calves. It comes all together and is entirely made of plastic.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Buy a tube feeder and buy a good one. You will drown calves trying to use a makeshift homemade device. You may even kill a calf with the purchased one until you understand exactly what you are doing. As far as a purchased electrolyte I suggest you research a product named Diaque. Diaque has an expiration date so do not order an excessive amount.


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## jerzeygurl (Jan 21, 2005)

yes our vet recomends corn syrup, even caffeine for lethargic down calves to give them a jolt,...a raw egg is an old stand by as well, 

like ken says if the runs are orange that is usually to rich of food unless bloody,the pastey white is what to really watch for....

also like stated, be careful tubeing as you can drown, we dont even try it ....


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

When I am bottle feeding I routinely add one to two eggs to formula.

Also if calves are really still hungry/thirsty I have followed feeling with warm, slightly sugared water, to fill them up.

That they are eager for their bottles is a very good sign. If you are having to bottle feed and a calf doesn't pretty well start bawling when they hear you coming after a couple of days normally means they aren't going to make it. Some calves just seem to be born without a will to live.


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

How are the calves doing?


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## InHisName (Jan 26, 2006)

Thanks for asking! They are vigorous eaters, 2 quarts 3x per day, also eating calf manna from a bucket. What a difference!
more questions- by the calendar, about mid March they should be weaned. The grass is not going to be up yet, though there will be last years dry grass everywhere- what to do? Do we purchase alfalfa or grass hay for them? will they still need the calf manna and for how long? Also, can we tether them in the field until we get the fencing completed? (Hubby would like to tether them the whole summer) We have about 6 acres of pasture land for them- it has been sitting here 3 years unattended. Since we do not have a barn, we are planning on butchering them in Dec.- is there a chart on weight/ meat ratios- You can see we know very little about this and appreciate the help!


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## moopups (May 12, 2002)

The general average of meat weight to on the hoof weight is 64 to 66%. Again a general average, it can vary up 15% either way depending on the situtation.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

With "2 quarts 3x per day" you will soon be back in here asking how to prevent the scours.


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

"more questions- by the calendar, about mid March they should be weaned. The grass is not going to be up yet, though there will be last years dry grass everywhere- what to do? Do we purchase alfalfa or grass hay for them? will they still need the calf manna and for how long? Also, can we tether them in the field until we get the fencing completed? (Hubby would like to tether them the whole summer) We have about 6 acres of pasture land for them- it has been sitting here 3 years unattended. Since we do not have a barn, we are planning on butchering them in Dec.- is there a chart on weight/ meat ratios-

With "2 quarts 3x per day" you will soon be back in here asking how to prevent the scours"

Keep grass hay in front of them starting shortly (alfalfa hay is expensive). Before you buy more than a bale at a time cut the strings and check inside. You want a dried (light) green color. Smell it. Should have a nice 'hay' smell to it with no offensive odors, such as mildew. They will pick at it at first, then consumer more and more as they get bigger.

On staking out, problem may be if there are dogs in the neighborhood. Staking essentially leaves them defenseless. If there is an electrical source handly the new electrical fencing systems are both economical and easy to use. I guarantee once they become use to your call they will head for the barn in the evening to be feed and put inside.

While you can keep good hay available for them in the barn resist the temptation of overfeed grains or calf grower. Calves a couple of months old can process whole kernel corn fairly efficiently.

Watch their rear ends. Brown and solid is verrrrrrrrrrrrrry good. Brown and runny isn't necessarily bad, but not good either if it continues. Yellow means too rich of a diet. White is TROUBLE.

A general rule of thumb I agree with is one bag of milk replacer per calf. When it is starting to run out reassess their feeding needs. If they are eating hay, drinking water and eating grain supplements they can do fine on it. You might simply keep reducing the amount of milk replacer in volume of water. I've heard after about 200 pounds milk starts to be a supplement more than really needed.

If you can't eyeball weight check with your local livestock feed provider about a weight tape. It goes around behind the front legs and is reasonable accurate.

One problem with overfeeding is pot-bellied. A calf on a cow gets a bit often. You are feeding a lot at once. I do not recommend feeding more than the bag recommendation. If they are thirsty warm, slighly sugared, water has worked well for me.

The most common rule of thumb I have seen is expect about 60% of liveweight as carcass weight and about 46% as freezer beef weight. As Moopups noted it varies by breed and even within breed. For example don't expect the same amount of beef from a Holstein as from an Angus of the same slaughter weights.

Why sell in December? If they had a three-sided shed with the opening away from the prevailing wind they should overwinter nicely on little more than round bales of hay. I know folks who buy them one bale at a time placed on the back of their pickups. To off load run a rope around the bale and tie to a tree or another vehicle or such and simply pull off. A hay ring will pay for itself within a season or so in helping to prevent hay spoilage.

Check out the list of stickys at the head of this forum's section. One is on the cuts and amount of each which can reasonably be expected from a carcass. Note you will get a lot of hamburger and stew meat.


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## Valmai (Sep 29, 2004)

The calves are about a week old at the moment??? If they can have access to the grass (no matter what quality) right away that would be good. While they are still so young grass and/or hay is mainly for roughage to help develop their stomachs.
_2. If you do not have a tube, and need it, could one be made? What size is the tube? If we would have had one, would have used it, they were that bad. _ Obviously they did not need tubing, just patience.
One other thing once I have a formerly scouring calf back onto milk I mix in yogurt (the "A" type, i can never remember the word!!) with their milk to reintroduce the flora to the gut.


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

On tubing the manufactured bags and tubes are relatively inexpensive. Designed by folks who know what they are doing. I strongly recommend against homemade rigs.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Ken Scharabok said:


> On tubing the manufactured bags and tubes are relatively inexpensive. Designed by folks who know what they are doing. I strongly recommend against homemade rigs.



I agree. The ones sold by the feedstore are quite inexpensive and work well. I can't remember what I last paid for one, its been a couple years, but I think it was under $15.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

agmantoo said:


> With "2 quarts 3x per day" you will soon be back in here asking how to prevent the scours.


You can do this if you work up to it slowly. We have had calves that would easily drink 2-3 gallons per day. But they were worked up to it *slowly*. It was also raw milk from our cows or goats, not replacer. That may make a difference too.


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## JulieLou42 (Mar 28, 2005)

At 7 months, Ginger's calf is still nursing, but I expect she'll wean pretty soon.

You might tether them, but not so that their tethers cross each other...each to a t-post, with 50' medium chain, with steel ring around post and snap hooks on each end, available from local Ace or TrueValue hardware stores. Put the posts something more than 100' apart. But, you'd need to put halters on them for that. The calf halter from the feed store had to have a few more holes put in it to fit a day-old calf. [You can burn them in with an ice pick over a gas flame.] They probably won't need shelter. [Mine hardly use theirs, and our elevation's 3k', with some snow still on the ground, but our 7.5 acre hill faces north.]

However, I'd recommend you have or get a good, large guard dog to watch over them...maybe 2 or 3 of them!

Grass will be high enough to turn them out by about May 1st., depending upon your elevation, given you aren't that far away from where I am. That's in Ag Zone 5?

So glad your calves made it!!!

Your story is why I prefer early summer calves.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

JulieLou42 said:


> Your story is why I prefer early summer calves.


It must be the different climate.  Here in southern Missouri(early, hot summers), I prefer fall, winter or early spring calves. They grow much better. My favorites would be february and march calves as then they are growing well and past the most dangerous stages by the time the summer hits.


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

When I'm not overwintering bred cows for resale in Spring as a 3/1 package I pull the bull out of the herd when the resident herd starts calving. He then goes back in between mid-May and the 1st of June. Normally gives me March calves which are about a month old when grass grow starts again.

This year I had one calve in December and one in January. Both surprised me as the first was way earlier than I expected (I actually though she was aborting) and the second had to have been rebreed before I pulled out the bull last year. Have both separated from the bull.


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## InHisName (Jan 26, 2006)

Well, back again with scours. Cut back on milk yesterday to 1 1/2 Q- for lunch they had electrolytes. They are eating, just look droopy (one more than the other, head down, tail between legs), and a bit shaky. Gave another good bacteria bolus, and one that plugs for a day- . Have been reading on scours, says could be salmonella, coronavirus - other things too. Went by a different vets and picked up bolus' - but I just cant use them. She gave me Sulfamethazine- I read the fine print on the box said not to give to calves under 1 month or calves only on milk. Going to give them electrolytes for this evening. Any suggestions? Is it normal to have scours while they are this age?


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

You gave the calves scours. You will be fortunate if at least one of them does not die. I find it very disturbing that someone obtains calves and is as ill equipped to care for them as you are. This is not meant to be mean but it is just the facts.


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

Scours? I assume the consistence is runny but what is the color? Hard to help you without knowing what you are dealing with.

Without knowing details I tend to agree with Agmantoo you were overfeeding even if you followed the bag and misguessed weight. Why I have a black thumb, I kill plants with kindness.


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## InHisName (Jan 26, 2006)

Well, If they can do it, I can too- Agman. After your first rebuke, started feeding them less, according to vet instructions. It's yellow, by the way- vet gave me a different product to deal it. Thanks folks. Wont be here again.


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

You can go elsewhere but I think everyone here has been trying to help you. Some are just a bit more 'gruff' than others. Bottle calves can be difficult to raise under even good weather conditons and my personal success rate is only about 50/50.

There be scours and there be scours. Yellow doesn't particular bother me in a calf. Common to see on calves a week or less old on pasture with good milking cows. Just indicates a very rich diet for their system. Every changed a young baby's diaper? Put me off on mustard for a long time. Cut back on feeding.

Everyone has their own procedures. As mentioned before I would follow the bag recommendation with warm, slightly sugared water. Gives them (I suspect) that full belly feeling without overfeeding. I haven't done it but don't see anything particular wrong with perhaps putting a pint or so of Gaterade in it.

You may well have other problems besides overfeeding.


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