# Messianic Jews



## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

First, let me say this: I am really trying to learn something here, so if you only want to start religion-bashing, go somewhere else. If you know NOTHING about MJs, and cannot provide either worthwhile information, a well thought out question, or a point to ponder, please find another thread. Thanks.

I'd heard of this religion, but never put much thought (nor research) into it. Now, I'm trying understand it. If any of you are Messianic Jews, or can explain it more thoroughly for me, I'd appreciate it. 

My understanding is that these are "Jews" that believe in the Holy Trinity. So, Jewish organizations consider them a Christian sect, as belief in the Trinity is considered idolatry to Jews. However, Christian organizations consider them as Jewish sect.

My limited understanding comes from an incident in the Navy where the Navy required the MJ "rabbis" to wear the Christian Cross on their lapel, not the Jewish Tablets of Law. It made the news because an MJ rabbi resigned his commission because wearing the cross went against his beliefs.

I spoke to an MJ online and he said he considers himself a Christian that celebrates the Jewish traditions in the Torah (Shabbat, etc.). As I asked further questions, he would respond, but not really answer my questions. My questions were based on things like why they feel that the old covenant wasn't replaced by the new covenant. I also asked him just where the line is drawn regarding the old covenant.. like does it end at animal sacrifices, or just WHERE? How do they know which traditions to adhere to, and which (in their minds) were overcome by the new covenant.

Sorry, I'm rambling... it just seems to me that to continue the old traditions makes the birth, life, and crucifixion of Jesus Christ all in vain. Jesus FULFILLED the old covenant, and in the book of Hebrews, Jesus talks about how you can't put new wine in an old wineskin, and in fact, to throw away the old wineskin.

My question is not which side to take, because I am firm in my beliefs. It's just to try to understand more about MJs.

Thanks!

ETA: Above mention of Hebrews... should have said John 19:29-30


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

I will cheerfully abide your curiosity ... but not here.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Mama Crow said:


> I will cheerfully abide your curiosity ... but not here.


Not sure how to take that. If your response is better left unsaid, then you can PM me if you feel strongly enough about it.

Otherwise, maybe other people are as curious as I, and may have more well-thought out questions.

And, if it's a "secret" to the "MJ religion", that will wrap it up for me. I won't want to know, because it will be devoid of any sense, so will be promptly and intentionally erased from my thought processes.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

No secret at all ... I am an open book. 

My hesitation stems from the very real potential of other voices entering the conversation for no other reason than to belittle, demean, disrespect, and provoke ... and I refuse to feed their insatiable appetites.

For those with sincere interest ... as I perceive you to be ... ask anything of me.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

> I spoke to an MJ online and he said he considers himself a Christian that celebrates the Jewish traditions in the Torah (Shabbat, etc.). As I asked further questions, he would respond, but not really answer my questions. My questions were based on things like why they feel that the old covenant wasn't replaced by the new covenant. I also asked him just where the line is drawn regarding the old covenant.. like does it end at animal sacrifices, or just WHERE? How do they know which traditions to adhere to, and which (in their minds) were overcome by the new covenant.


I am not religious. Jesus spoke heavily against, religion of ANY kind.

Matthew 23

I am a Believer, period...
The Feasts and Festivals that are clearly spelled out in Scripture are Commands, not traditions. If it is not in Scripture, it is a 'religious addition' and NOT from God. 
Leviticus 23

Jesus was clear that He was NOT here to "abolish the old", but to "fulfill it".
Matthew 5:17-18
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 
18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus has not returned, therefore not everything, is accomplished.....

Digging deep into God's Word, after extensive prayer (even fasting) and a deep hunger to Know Him.......having a Hebrew dictionary for the OT and a Greek dictionary for the NT............and STOP listening to 'christian this or that'.........will help you to understand.

"christians" want to say the OT is obsolete. Not true.
"others" want to say NT is incorrect. Not true.
What's the one thing they have in common?
They are humans, struggling for their "front row seat". THIS Is nothing new:

Mark 9:33-37
33 They came to Capernaum. When he was in the house, he asked them, "What were you *arguing* about on the road?" 
34 But they kept quiet because on the way *they had argued about who was the greatest. 
* 35 Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all." 
36 He took a little child and had him stand among them. Taking him in his arms, he said to them,
37 "Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me."


If you want to gain, understanding, Take God's Word, pray for the Spirit to lead you in all Truth, sit down with His Word, and let it be your bread and water....you sustenance. Stay away from 'preachers and churchy books'. 

You don't need them.
You have The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit and His FULL Counsel (The Word of God)
You don't need anything else!!!


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

Well, shoot, look at Laura go .... yeehaw .... a woman after my own heart.

Literally.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Mama Crow,
PMed you!!


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Mama Crow said:


> No secret at all ... I am an open book.
> 
> My hesitation stems from the very real potential of other voices entering the conversation for no other reason than to belittle, demean, disrespect, and provoke ... and I refuse to feed their insatiable appetites.
> 
> For those with sincere interest ... as I perceive you to be ... ask anything of me.


I know... there will be some, no doubt. That's why I addressed those people in my first paragraph.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

The following is an excerpt from my personal website ... I think they address some of your questions:

I believe there is a BIG difference between statutes and laws ... people seem to really get hung up over the statutes (not fully knowing, or understanding, what they were and what they were for.)

I believe, and this is a huge one, that the Law of God is taught in BOTH the Old and the New Testaments ... and I believe the Law requires both physical actions and spiritual convictions.

I believe that the best known covenants were made with the physical nation of Israel, and that those covenants were re-established as the New Covenant with "better promises" ... and that those new covenants will be fully confirmed with a spiritual Israel after the return of Jesus Christ. 

I believe the Old Covenant was physical (there was not a Savior yet; no hope for eternal salvation) ... and I believe the New Covenant was spiritual (having HOPE through a Savior put an enhanced meaning upon everything from the Old.)

I believe "The New Covenant" makes God's Law EVEN MORE relevant by expanding it to include one's mental attitude and spiritual intent ... for instance, the Old Covenant was physical (thou shall not commit adultery) but the New Covenant compounded the physical to make it spiritual, too (if you even LOOK upon another with lust in your heart.) 

I believe the seven annual holy days or "appointed feasts" depict God's plan of salvation for mankind ... and that they are not just legalistic holidays for the Jews ... and I also believe that those feasts are were kept by Jesus Christ himself, and they were still kept (and taught) by His disciples long, Long, LONG after He was crucified.

I believe the seventh-day Sabbath was instituted at creation, and that it is to be taught and kept holy in accordance with the biblical instruction ... I believe the Sabbath was reaffirmed to Israel as a part of the covenant at Sinai, and then was re-taught by Jesus Christ who WAS the Messenger of the Old/New Covenant ... and, I firmly believe that the keeping of the Sabbath is fundamental to a Christian's relationship with God.

And I agree with everything Laura has said, so far.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

EasyDay said:


> I know... there will be some, no doubt. That's why I addressed those people in my first paragraph.


Yes sir, I saw that after another read-through ... are you a sir? ... and, so, anyway I decided to take a leap of faith, and trust that you will help keep this on topic.

Thank you.






Oh, and Laura? How's that for clarification?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Mama Crow said:


> Yes sir, I saw that after another read-through ... are you a sir? ... and, so, anyway I decided to take a leap of faith, and trust that you will help keep this on topic.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> ...


Sweet!! Thanks!


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

laura zone 5 said:


> if you want to gain, understanding, take god's word, pray for the spirit to lead you in all truth, sit down with his word, and let it be your bread and water....you sustenance. Stay away from 'preachers and churchy books'.
> 
> You don't need them.
> You have the father, the son and the holy spirit and his full counsel (the word of god)
> you don't need anything else!!!


amen!


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

And, no, we do NOT sacrifice on Passover ... in fact, we don't sacrifice animals at all. Period. 

Jesus became the sacrifical lamb, and He also set a NEW example for us the night before He KNEW he was going to die ... do this in remembrance of me ... what most people call "The Lord's Supper."

He was crucified ON Passover Day ... in fact, the Jewish High Priest was slaughtering the Passover Lamb (which would have been around 3:00 PM) the moment Jesus was being nailed.

The Jewish lamb had to bleed out before sundown ... Jesus had to be removed before sundown ... why?

Because at sundown began the High Sabbath (a Holy Day i.e Days of Unleavened Bread.) 

Jesus didn't die on a Friday, as many assume. He died on a High Sabbath ... a Holy Day.

And this further compounds the symbolic meaning of His message.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I am not religious. Jesus spoke heavily against, religion of ANY kind.
> 
> Matthew 23
> 
> ...


Thanks, Laura, for your reply without fear of retribution.

I, too, do not agree with organized religions. They each have their own take on things.

I think this is where maybe you and I think differently. You said, "Jesus has not returned, therefore not everything, is accomplished....."

Here's my take on it...
As a simple example, in no way meaning to sound crass, let's take a new car warranty. 10 years or 10K miles, whichever comes first.

So, two things are mentioned about the old covenant: one, that the old heaven and earth disappear... two, that the old covenant be fulfilled.

When Jesus, on the cross, said, "It is finished", my take is that this was the point where the old covenant was fulfilled. If not.... just what was finished? Those are powerful words, and I believe they mark a very powerful point in time.

If I'm wrong on this, then I should have been adhering to both the old and new covenants? I don't think that can be done. I don't feel they are compatible. 
(My next post will address why, but didn't want to make this post longer than it already is getting!)

Jesus also addresses it here:
"36No one tears a patch from a new garment and sews it on an old one. If he does, he will have torn the new gar- ment, and the patch from the new will not match the old. 
37And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined.
38No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins." Luke 5:36-38

And what about the Great Commission?


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

I have to go, and I don't want to.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Mama Crow said:


> I have to go, and I don't want to.


I am enjoying reading your posts.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

The old covenant covers:
10 commandments and the moral laws (that dictate what is considered a crime by the society and the proper mode of punishment)
Civil laws (involving agriculture and relationships between citizens and even slaves and what may be considered as proper payment for damages)
Dietary laws (that dictate what is acceptable as food in Israelite society)
Temple and sacri&#64257;cial laws and rituals (that dictate what things may or must be done at the temple and the altar and how those rituals may be performed properly, including laws of cleansing) 
Priesthood regulations (that dictate who are permitted to serve in the temple and other religious rites)
Sabbath and holy days (that dictate which days during the week, month, and year are set aside for religious purposes and how those days may be properly observed)

The new covenant:
Commands of Jesus (in the Gospel accounts)
Apostolic teaching (which is an explanation for how the commands of Jesus apply to daily living and in our relationships to each other, to neighbors, and to enemies)

Some distinctions:
No dietary laws that separate disciples from others. We are instead separated from sin by a consumption of the Living Water and the Bread of Life and living/walking in the Spirit.
We are the New Temple, the Body of Christ, and our act of worship is joining Him in His sufferings by laying down our lives as a sacri&#64257;ce for others.
We are the church under our High Priest, Jesus Christ, whose sole sacri&#64257;ce cleansed His entire holy nation of all its sins once and for all. There is no longer any need for
another physical sacri&#64257;ce.
No holy day or time which is marked for the Lord. Rather, our entire life is set apart for the Lord and for His glory. Jesus is our Sabbath (our eternal rest), the reality of what was pictured in the Old Covenant

The old covenant did not (could not) give life. The rituals and sacrifices did not give salvation. Those things alone are given through Jesus' sacrifice.

Back to the MJs.....
so, are they following both convenants?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

> When Jesus, on the cross, said, "It is finished", my take is that this was the point where the old covenant was fulfilled. If not.... just what was finished? Those are powerful words, and I believe they mark a very powerful point in time.


John 19
Matthew 27

Jesus was the Perfect Lamb.
He was the LAST blood sacrifice.
No more shedding of blood (sacrifice) was needed. He paid it all.

The curtain was torn, top to bottom.
Note, the curtain was about a 'hand thick'....so this was a MASSIVE curtain.
This curtain separated man from God.
When this curtain was torn, that gave man, every man, full access to God, any time any where.
No more priests, rabbis, bla bla bla.
I can speak to My Savior anytime, any where.
This curtain tearing top to bottom also lets us know HE wants to have a RELATIONSHIP with us......not just 'bring Him' stuff because the Book says too.......but to have a Relationship with Him. Like a child to their Father.



> If I'm wrong on this, then I should have been adhering to both the old and new covenants? I don't think that can be done. I don't feel they are compatible.
> (My next post will address why, but didn't want to make this post longer than it already is getting!)


I have found that the more I study His Word, the less my 'thoughts and feelings' should ever ever factor into His Word. It is Pure, Holy and well, I am not! 

*Isaiah 55:8-10 
*


8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, 
neither are your ways my ways," 
declares the LORD. 
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, 
so are my ways higher than your ways 
and my thoughts than your thoughts. 
10 As the rain and the snow 
come down from heaven, 
and do not return to it 
without watering the earth 
and making it bud and flourish, 
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> If you want to gain, understanding, Take God's Word, pray for the Spirit to lead you in all Truth, sit down with His Word, and let it be your bread and water....you sustenance. Stay away from 'preachers and churchy books'.
> 
> You don't need them.
> You have The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit and His FULL Counsel (The Word of God)
> You don't need anything else!!!


I agree with this wholeheartedly, but am not inquiring for my own beliefs (even if they may vary from yours). I DO appreciate your response very much, but I'm trying to understand Messianic Jews.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

EasyDay said:


> Back to the MJs.....
> so, are they following both convenants?


Those who Believe God, Believe the Full counsel. The entire Word of God.
Not just the parts they like, or the parts that make 'sense' to them.
They obey the Full Counsel.

*Galatians 3:28
*

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


HTH!


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Ok, this thread didn't end up like I wanted. Like I said, I wasn't questioning my own beliefs.
Laura, my beliefs are the same as yours except that I believe that by Jesus' fulfilling of the old covenant, it expired and the new covenant began. 

MamaCrow, thanks for your replies, as well. You say "we don't...". So, are you a Messianic Jew? 

So, if the MJs believe in all that Jesus did for us, then why are they Messianic JEWS? THIS is what I'm trying to understand. That guy online said he considered himself a Christian... but says he is a MJ. *Why the confusion in semantics?* This is my question. The Jews accuse them of idolatry. The "name" of this religion doesn't seem to fit their beliefs, so this is what I'm trying to understand.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Those who Believe God, Believe the Full counsel. The entire Word of God.
> Not just the parts they like, or the parts that make 'sense' to them.
> They obey the Full Counsel.
> 
> ...


My question (and perhaps that of the OP) is how do you claim to be Jewish and Christian when Christ is our (Christians) Messiah and the Jews do not believe the Messiah has come?
As a Christian, I have been taught to pray for and support the Jews because they are God's chosen people. I believe the entire Word of God, but the New Testament is what I follow because I believe Jesus is my Messiah. He is the Sacrificial Lamb, and therefore Christians do not follow the Old Testament in regard to making sacrifices. Jesus has already made the ultimate sacrifice.
To me, that is the major difference between Christians and Jews. 
I am now intrigued as to how a Messianic Jew can support both views.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Is the word in their name used as "Hebrew" vice as a known religion? Maybe this is where my confusion lies.

I am part "Jewish" by blood (Hebrew), but have never been Jewish by religion.

Is this where I'm confusing things?


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

EasyDay said:


> Is the word in their name used as "Hebrew" vice as a known religion? Maybe this is where my confusion lies.
> 
> I am part "Jewish" by blood (Hebrew), but have never been Jewish by religion.
> 
> Is this where I'm confusing things?


I am going to Google it because I am confused, too.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

shanzone2001 said:


> My question (*and perhaps that of the OP*) is how do you claim to be Jewish and Christian when Christ is our (Christians) Messiah and the Jews do not believe the Messiah has come?
> As a Christian, I have been taught to pray for and support the Jews because they are God's chosen people. I believe the entire Word of God, but the New Testament is what I follow because I believe Jesus is my Messiah. He is the Sacrificial Lamb, and therefore Christians do not follow the Old Testament in regard to making sacrifices. Jesus has already made the ultimate sacrifice.
> To me, that is the major difference between Christians and Jews.
> I am now intrigued as to how a Messianic Jew can support both views.


DEFINITELY that of the OP.
You said all of that well. That is my exact question! 
Thanks for that!


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## JIL (Aug 25, 2007)

[


If you want to gain, understanding, Take God's Word, pray for the Spirit to lead you in all Truth, sit down with His Word, and let it be your bread and water....you sustenance. Stay away from 'preachers and churchy books'. 

You don't need them.
You have The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit and His FULL Counsel (The Word of God)
You don't need anything else!!![/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what you are saying here, yes "religion" is against God persay but in scripture it says not to foresake the assembling of the brethern, to be there to lift each other up, to come together in Praise and worship, I will look up the scripture I am talking about. I know we are to gather together in His Name. I also very much agree to know the Lord is by prayer and fasting and to be lead and filled with His Holy Spirit. The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed and The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed they go together. I am enjoying this as I would like to learn I don't know much on MJ. thanks JIL


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

I'm about to research a guy by the name of Michael Rood. :shrug: Never heard of him, but that guy online says he studied Rood's material, and that's where he found the missing "pieces of the puzzle"... his words.


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## Sharon (May 11, 2002)

Perhaps this link would be helpful. This guy is a Messianic Jew: http://www.sidroth.org/site/PageServer


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Thanks, Sharon. I'll look at that.

Michael Rood's website:
http://www.aroodawakening.tv/index.php?lang=en-US

if anyone wants to take a look. I'm heading there now.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Okay, right off the bat, here's his Mission Statement:



> A Rood Awakening! is an educational ministry dedicated to helping individuals to understand the Hebrew Scriptures and encouraging them to live a Torah observant life.


Sounds Jewish to me.


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

This has been a very interesting thread so far. Thank you EasyDay for posting, and to the rest of you for enlightening. 

I am not Jewish, but two of my children do have some Jewish ancestry (Hebrew, for clarification). Would that would qualify them as being semi-Messianic Jews? 

Since I have no first hand understanding of the subject, I can only add my opinion on the issue. I can undersand a MJ keeping the old traditions if for no other reason than to help them to remember their history. There is certainly nothing wrong with keeping the Passover, etc. as long as they don't see it as a way of obtaining salvation through works. Communion for Christians has a similar purpose.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Sharon said:


> Perhaps this link would be helpful. This guy is a Messianic Jew: http://www.sidroth.org/site/PageServer


Sharon, I hope you weren't promoting this guy by posting his link. I think he's a whacko from the word "GO".



> Sid Roth was raised in a traditional Jewish home. He tried religion, education and his restlessness pushed him from job to job, gypsy to guru. *He left his wife and family and a good corporate job when he finally found what he thought he wanted: a supernatural ability to control minds.*
> 
> *Woohoo! What a great guy to abandon his family once he felt he had experienced success. *
> 
> As he got deeper into mind control, he was enveloped by a mounting fear. Suicide looked like the only escape until he found something more. That something more changed his life and set a new course for success that brought him the satisfaction and contentment he had so longer for.


Oh, brother. Only madmen and control freaks even hope for an ability to control others' minds.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

deaconjim said:


> This has been a very interesting thread so far. Thank you EasyDay for posting, and to the rest of you for enlightening.
> 
> I am not Jewish, but two of my children do have some Jewish ancestry (Hebrew, for clarification). Would that would qualify them as being semi-Messianic Jews?
> 
> ...


I was hoping you'd chime in, Jim. Thanks for doing so.
Maybe you're right about them keeping the old traditions alive. Like, "This do in remembrance of me."


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

I am a Jew; by blood and by faith.

I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that ANYONE claiming that Jesus is the Messiah is NOT A JEW, and that applying the word "Jew" to themselves is a misnomer and repulsive to "real" Jews.

We wait for the Messiah; that is what Jews DO. (well, and pray to the One G-d). Anyone claiming that a Messiah has already come is not a Jew; they are something else.

Placing the word "Messianic" in front of the word "Jew" is like saying "Neutered Stallion"; it simply can't exist.

I support anyone's belief, I truely do, but the name they have placed on their religion is false advertising........


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Thanks, Jill. That was my thinking, and what spurred me to start this thread.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

From Rood's website:
"Thousands of people like you are learning about their hebrew roots and are joining the messianic movement of believers."

Okay, maybe we're onto something here.
It seems that MJs are Christians that are acknowledging their Hebrew roots to an extreme measure, by following the traditions of the Torah.

Does that take away from their Christian beliefs? In my opinion, yes, because it shows that they don't believe that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant. Though, YMMV.

ETA: I wanted to watch some of his videos, but most get a 404 error. Hmmm.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Okay, the unnamed online guy says this:

"Any Jewish law or customs that are followed are cultural and do not contribute to attaining salvation. "

So, as Jill said, "the name they have placed on their religion is false advertising".

I don't understand the method to their madness in doing this. Seems this would make them a bastard of sorts in both religious sects. Which, from what I've read, it has.
Could the name be to attract Jews, in hopes of converting them to Christianity?
But, as "Christians", why would they want to be called "Jews"?


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Was not Paul a was a Roman citizen born a Jew and converted to Christianity. Could it be that Jew is thought of as a race not a religion or system of beliefs thus creating confusion as putting a label as to any person born a Jew would not believe in Jesus Christ  Many Jews became Christians by Paul's preaching while under house arrest in Rome . Also Paul wrote letters telling some of the churches that they need not incorporate the old things into their worship that Christ paid it all an to do so would make his death and resurrection of no effect .

Thoughts I am putting out there as am to sick to go to church this morning :Bawling:

By the way great thread :happy::happy:


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Interesting thread.

I'm not going to take the time to quote chapter and verse, but when Paul went out and started evangelizing there was some disagreement among the Disciples about certain traditions such as circumcision. I can certainly understand how that could be a roadblock to gain conversions! The way I understand it was determined that new converts need not abandon all of their customs and adopt all of the Jewish customs. Celebrating your customs was determined to be acceptable within certain parameters. Many of the Apostles continued to observe Jewish tradition after the Crucifixion. I think Paul realized that people from different cultures could not be expected to abandon everything they knew and become a foreign people. 

Because the Disciples were wise enough to allow some leeway concerning local customs Christianity was allowed to expand and flourish. 

The Messianic Jews already had an existing Culture. Every culture has a group-think that is unique to that particular culture and to incorporate Christianity into that culture you have to acknowledge that culture's traditions. I think this is what happened to the MJs. They had their deep rooted traditions that they could not let go of. They incorporated Christianity into their culture and beliefs in the only way that they could. 


I think that there is only about 3 or 4 verses of the New Testament that you absolutely HAVE to know, understand, and practice to gain salvation, and after isn't that the point? All the rest is history and fodder for pleasant debates such as this one.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

jill.costello said:


> I am a Jew; by blood and by faith.
> 
> I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that ANYONE claiming that Jesus is the Messiah is NOT A JEW, and that applying the word "Jew" to themselves is a misnomer and repulsive to "real" Jews.
> ...


Your first sentence assumes one you can be one or another. (ie; a blood Jew but not a faith Jew) If one can be a blood Jew they will always be a blood Jew, regardless of faith, right? re how can a blood Jew who believes differently from you not be a "real Jew"?


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Was not Paul a was a Roman citizen born a Jew and converted to Christianity. *Could it be that Jew is thought of as a race not a religion or system of beliefs thus creating confusion as putting a label as to any person born a Jew would not believe in Jesus Christ * Many Jews became Christians by Paul's preaching while under house arrest in Rome . Also Paul wrote letters telling some of the churches that they need not incorporate the old things into their worship that Christ paid it all an to do so would make his death and resurrection of no effect .
> 
> Thoughts I am putting out there as am to sick to go to church this morning :Bawling:
> 
> By the way great thread :happy::happy:


Yep, I think that's the point we've reached here.
Which raised even more questions in my little pea-brain! :sob:


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

tinknal said:


> Your first sentence assumes one you can be one or another. (ie; a blood Jew but not a faith Jew) If one can be a blood Jew they will always be a blood Jew, regardless of faith, right? re how can a blood Jew who believes differently from you not be a "real Jew"?


Yep that was what i was trying to say in my feeble way :sing: Thanks


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

The way I understand "Messianic Jew" is this:

One is born (flesh) from a Jew / Hebrew mother, (which is through the mother's side only) but has claimed Christ as Savior. 



> So, if the MJs believe in all that Jesus did for us, then why are they Messianic JEWS? THIS is what I'm trying to understand. That guy online said he considered himself a Christian... but says he is a MJ. *Why the confusion in semantics?* This is my question. The Jews accuse them of idolatry. The "name" of this religion doesn't seem to fit their beliefs, so this is what I'm trying to understand.


IMHO People like 'titles'.
They want to 'be' part of "something".
So they label themselves.
One says "I am a ____ the other says I am a ____"

When it is clear in God's Word.....your "self given title, means nothing to Him".
It is your relationship WITH Him that matters.
But people like titles. *deep sigh*



> My question (and perhaps that of the OP) is how do you claim to be Jewish and Christian when Christ is our (Christians) Messiah and the Jews do not believe the Messiah has come?


Jews are a race of people. It would be like saying how can you claim to be Iraqi and a Christian? Because you are from Iraq doesn't mean you MUST be a muslim. Ditto with Jews. You can be born, a Jew, and be a Believer in Christ.

Try this. 
When referring to the 'religious practices' say the word Judaism. 
Judaism is a religion.
When referring to the 'people' call them The Jews, or Hebrews.
The Jews, Hebrews, The Chosen are God's People He set apart.

That may help simplify the confusion. ;-)



> To me, that is the major difference between Christians and Jews.


May I gently say:

God says: 
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all One in Christ Jesus.

If one is born from a Jewish / Hebrew mother, they are Jewish / Hebrew, and if they believe in Christ.....they are who this verse is referring too.




> As a Christian, I have been taught to pray for and support the Jews because they are God's chosen people. I believe the entire Word of God, but the New Testament is what I follow because I believe Jesus is my Messiah. He is the Sacrificial Lamb, and therefore Christians do not follow the Old Testament in regard to making sacrifices. Jesus has already made the ultimate sacrifice.


There are no more 'blood sacrifices' to be made, correct. Jesus paid in full.
But, what do you say about the following Scriptures?

*Exodus 12:14*
"This is a day you are to commemorate; for the generations to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to the LORD -a *lasting* *ordinance*.
*
Exodus 12:17*"
Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread, because it was on this very day that I brought your divisions out of Egypt. Celebrate this day as a *lasting* *ordinance* for the generations to come.

*Exodus 12:24*
"Obey these instructions as a *lasting* *ordinance* for you and your descendants.
*
Leviticus 16:31*
It is a sabbath of rest, and you must deny yourselves; it is a *lasting* *ordinance*.

I hear many preachers say "If the Lord said it more than 3 times, He really wanted us to hear it"......If you go to Biblegateway.com and type in lasting ordinance....wow. Lot's of verses!! 



> Laura, my beliefs are the same as yours except that I believe that by *Jesus' fulfilling of the old covenant, it expired and the new covenant began.*


Unfortunately this is what churches teach. I used to think the same thing. I started doing a way cool Bible study www.bsfinternational.org and it was a good starting point. The more I dug in verse by verse the more I wanted to "know". So I have a Hebrew speaking friend that helps me with the Hebrew in the OT and I have a Greek dictionary for the NT.......

Slowly I found that everything I was 'learning' in chruch......was not what God's Word said. The more I drew near to Him, the more the false teachings melted away.
I am still a work in progress.....


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Good post, tinknal.
From what I have read, the Messianic Jews (as an official religion) started sometime in the mid-1800s. So, maybe that was just finally putting a name to an old way of thinking.


I'd like to thank everyone for keeping this thread civil and on-point. A religious thread that hasn't brought out the worst in everybody! This is truly a milestone in GC history!
Mark this day, Mods! :rotfl:


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

tinknal said:


> Your first sentence assumes one you can be one or another. (ie; a blood Jew but not a faith Jew) If one can be a blood Jew they will always be a blood Jew, regardless of faith, right? re how can a blood Jew who believes differently from you not be a "real Jew"?


I'm sorry if you read my first sentence that way; I was simply emphasising the fact that I was _raised_ Jewish, not a convert to Judaism. 

A person born of a Jewish mother will always be viewed as a Jew _by other Jews_, but if they convert to Christianity, then they will be _viewed by Christians as a Christian_.

Me saying that I am a Jew "by blood and by faith" was me simply affirming that I have not converted to anything else.


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## Lizza (Nov 30, 2005)

Can I ask a question. There is a Christian family I know and the father wears a Yamika (I've never seen him without it), I've always felt like I should have asked but never did. Would he be considered a Messianic Jew? I should ask, just never knew how to start. 

There is another Christian family that dresses like Mennonites (we have a large group here) but no head coverings for the women. I should ask them too. 

It is so hard to start these kind of conversations, at least for me.


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

EasyDay said:


> Okay, the unnamed online guy says this:
> 
> "Any Jewish law or customs that are followed are cultural and do not contribute to attaining salvation. "
> 
> ...


I believe you have nailed it. Christians are called to evangelise (I just learned this!!) and to "witness" in hopes of converting others to the teachings of Christ. There is/was a "Jews for Jesus" movement back in the 80's, and us young Jewish kids were real targets; they even went so far as to stand outside our Synogogue after Hebrew school and hand out pamphlets! When we brought the literature to our Rabbi, he gently explained that we, G-d's Chosen People, are blessed in His eyes by following his ancient teachings and continuing to wait for the Messiah to come. The CHRIST-ians believe that Christ IS the Messiah, come already. But we, the Jews, do not.

Judaism IS a religion; it existed BEFORE Christianity. Jesus was a Jew. I personally believe Jesus still IS a Jew, for who does HE pray to but G-d the Father, the Original ONE.

There are cultural elements to Judaism, as with all nomadic peoples who lived, worked, and survived together, but keeping the sabbath, and observing the high holy days, and the dietary laws, etc, etc are all set forth in the Torah (the five books of Moses), what is now called the "old" testament. For us, it is the ONLY testament.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

jill.costello said:


> There are cultural elements to Judaism, as with all nomadic peoples who lived, worked, and survived together, but keeping the sabbath, and observing the high holy days, and the dietary laws, etc, etc are all set forth in the Torah (the five books of Moses), what is now called the "old" testament. For us, it is the ONLY testament.


Not exactly. Christians refer to the Torah as the Pentarch (sp). there are 33 other books along with these first five that constitute the "Old Testament".


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

I've skimmed though the replies and I'm going to drop in here with the way I understand it. Short and to the point.

A Messianic Jew is someone who either is Jewish by birth (Judaism is considered a race by many) or by choice (as in converting to the Jewish religion) who has became a Christian. IOW, they are Jews who believe Jesus is/was the Messiah which was promised by the prophets in the Torah.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

morningstar said:


> Can I ask a question. There is a Christian family I know and the father wears a Yamika (I've never seen him without it), I've always felt like I should have asked but never did. Would he be considered a Messianic Jew? I should ask, just never knew how to start.
> 
> There is another Christian family that dresses like Mennonites (we have a large group here) but no head coverings for the women. I should ask them too.
> 
> It is so hard to start these kind of conversations, at least for me.


May I be bold, but in love? 
Imagine my tone of voice is soft, and not harsh or aggressive, offended or irritatied.......
But soft, simple and to the point.

People are wrapped in "flesh".

That's the yuck that chooses sin when ever it is given room to do so.

"Flesh" wants to be noticed.
"Flesh" wants to be seen.
"Flesh" wants to be heard.
"Flesh" LIVES for attention.

Sometimes people take one or two verses grossly out of context and make a whole 'religion' out of them.
Sometimes people feel "holier, or better" than others because they are following some 'outward sign'.
People who 'dress' a 'religious' way...do so to get, noticed......

The Lord gave us SO many verses about "coming out, and being separate". But He never condoned us 'making a scene'.
Think....Moses......the most humble man to ever walk the earth! God said so! I LOVE the story of Moses. There is SO much to be learned, and to be applied today....



> A Messianic Jew is someone who either is Jewish by birth (Judaism is considered a race by many) or by choice (as in converting to the Jewish religion) who has became a Christian. IOW, they are Jews who believe Jesus is/was the Messiah which was promised by the prophets in the Torah.


Judaism is a "religion".
It is a thing, not a person.
The Jews, The Hebrews, The Chosen.....
They are God's People, set apart by Him and for Him.
They are people, not things.

*I* was not born a Jew. My mother is Irish.
However, when I accepted Christ as Savior.....read http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011&version=NIV (11-24 specifically)
It's Good News!!


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## Lizza (Nov 30, 2005)

Whoa, Laura in Zone 5, I was just curious, not making huge assumptions about anybody or anything, just simply curious. I could care less, just curious, makes me glad I never asked either family!


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

EasyDay said:


> When Jesus, on the cross, said, "It is finished", my take is that this was the point where the old covenant was fulfilled. If not.... just what was finished?


 His atonement was finished, most Protestants read waaaaaay too much into those 3 (English) words.
Jesus also said that not one jot or tittle (ie not even the smallest part) of the law (ie Gods laws, not Jewish rules) would go away until Heaven and Earth passed away. <<Looking around>>---nope still here.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

morningstar said:


> Whoa, Laura in Zone 5, I was just curious, not making huge assumptions about anybody or anything, just simply curious. I could care less, just curious, makes me glad I never asked either family!


MS, I wouldn't feel that way. By asking the families, I can almost bet that they'd be more than willing to tell you about their faith, as long as you ask in a sincere manner. The worst that can happen is that they tell you to mind your own business. But, more than likely, you'll learn something, they'll enjoy sharing their ideals (because most religious people do), and you might make some new close friends.

But, I wouldn't ask the man who wears a Yamika if he is a Messianic Jew. MJs are apparently offensive to those of the Jewish faith because it is idolatry. Instead, I would say something like, "I see you're Jewish. I don't know much about the Jewish faith."... or something like that, something that will open the door and invite him to tell you. If he IS an MJ, this will be his opportunity to reveal that, as well. That unnamed online MJ guy (LOL) does not wear a Yamika, so I don't know if it's part of their prescribed attire, or not. 

Also, I don't necessarily think that wearing a certain piece of clothing, for instance, is trying to stand out or to announce themselves as "holier than thou". I don't think it's any different than the cross necklace I always wear. And it allows people to relate to each other, or not, at a glance... to recognize those of the same faith.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

mnn2501 said:


> His atonement was finished, most Protestants read waaaaaay too much into those 3 (English) words.
> Jesus also said that not one jot or tittle (ie not even the smallest part) of the law (ie Gods laws, not Jewish rules) would go away until Heaven and Earth passed away. *<<Looking around>>---nope still here*.


The subject of the thread is discussion of MJs. Though we have discussed our individual beliefs, we have (so far) managed to avoid arguing over "who's right". And we have managed to do it without sarcasm... so let's not spoil that, huh?


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

EasyDay said:


> The subject of the thread is discussion of MJs. Though we have discussed our individual beliefs, we have (so far) managed to avoid arguing over "who's right". And we have managed to do it without sarcasm... so let's not spoil that, huh?


Amen. I almost posted myself. You said it better than I would have.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

I can't believe we had 51 good posts before someone threw in sarcasm! LOL
YAAAY, us!


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

mnn2501 said:


> His atonement was finished, most Protestants read waaaaaay too much into those 3 (English) words.
> Jesus also said that not one jot or tittle (ie not even the smallest part) of the law (ie Gods laws, not Jewish rules) would go away until Heaven and Earth passed away. <<Looking around>>---nope still here.


FWIW, I didn't find you offensive. I 'get' what you are saying .


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

EasyDay said:


> MS, I wouldn't feel that way. By asking the families, I can almost bet that they'd be more than willing to tell you about their faith, as long as you ask in a sincere manner. The worst that can happen is that they tell you to mind your own business. But, more than likely, you'll learn something, they'll enjoy sharing their ideals (because most religious people do), and you might make some new close friends.
> 
> But, I wouldn't ask the man who wears a Yamika if he is a Messianic Jew. MJs are apparently offensive to those of the Jewish faith because it is idolatry. Instead, I would say something like, "I see you're Jewish. I don't know much about the Jewish faith."... or something like that, something that will open the door and invite him to tell you. If he IS an MJ, this will be his opportunity to reveal that, as well. That unnamed online MJ guy (LOL) does not wear a Yamika, so I don't know if it's part of their prescribed attire, or not.
> 
> *Also, I don't necessarily think that wearing a certain piece of clothing, for instance, is trying to stand out or to announce themselves as "holier than thou". I don't think it's any different than the cross necklace I always wear. And it allows people to relate to each other, or not, at a glance... to recognize those of the same faith*.


Is this your opinion, or do you have Scriptures to support this? Curious, because the cross was a torture device. (absolutely no sourcasm injected. just straight faced honesty) Many were hideously crucified on crosses. Long before, and Long after Christ. The cross was a hideous thing that Christ hung on, and died for my sins. Why do I want to commemorate the device of torture by placing it so close to my heart?
I would never wear a noose, guillotine or any other torture device on my neck and call it jewerly. But.......that's my opinion. 
And Scripture says "NO graven images".

So back to the OP:
What is your main interest in this religion?
Why people convert to it? 
Who are the people who convert to it?
What does this religion believe?

I think we are getting off topic. I hope this will help bring it back around!


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Is this your opinion, or do you have Scriptures to support this? Curious, because the cross was a torture device. (absolutely no sourcasm injected. just straight faced honesty) Many were hideously crucified on crosses, and it was a hideous thing that Christ hung on, and died for my sins.....
> I would never wear a noose, guillotine or any other torture device on my neck and call it jewerly. But.......that's my opinion.
> And Scripture says "NO graven images".
> 
> ...


I explain throughout the thread my various questions, as well as my interpretation of posters' answers.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Laura, I think every Christian needs to remember the horrible sacrifice that Jesus made for us. The cross is a symbol of this sacrifice and what had to occur for our salvation. I need to be reminded every day that I am a sinner and that my salvation would be impossible but for what that cross represents.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Oh, and:



Laura Zone 5 said:


> Is this your opinion, or do you have Scriptures to support this?


I said what I believe. I doubt I'll find any links searching on "EasyDay's beliefs".
I don't have to justify my beliefs to _any_ person. My beliefs are MY OWN, and that's between me and my God.
Why are you getting snarky?


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

tinknal said:


> Laura, I think every Christian needs to remember the horrible sacrifice that Jesus made for us. The cross is a symbol of this sacrifice and what had to occur for our salvation. I need to be reminded every day that I am a sinner and that my salvation would be impossible but for what that cross represents.


Thanks. And you said that better than I did!


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Okay... it seems we're slipping so this would probably be a good time to abandon the thread. I don't think I'm alone when I say that it was educational, and my initial questions in the OP were answered satisfactorily. Maybe not all thoroughly.

Great thread, folks!
Thanks for jumping in!


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## knight88 (Nov 17, 2006)

An excellent thread, I think no one could read it without doing some very serious self examination. Whether Catholic, MJ or Protestant of some variety we all have something in common. I have often found that the Hebrews and Roman Catholics seem to have found a common ground, agreeing to disagree as it were. 
If we all follow the new and old Testaments I think that the human brain will separate the wheat from the chaff.
Wish that Mama Crow had been able to continue, this could have gotten even more interesting...


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

jill.costello said:


> I believe you have nailed it. Christians are called to evangelise (I just learned this!!) and to "witness" in hopes of converting others to the teachings of Christ. testament.


yes, growing up inthe 70s 80s the evangelizing thing was heavy on the door to door drive by type of witnessing, drag your friend to church kind of thing--the four spiritual laws stuff. but after reading the bible for myself (heh) i really think, and also have come to see that this has changed over the years among what i call "deep" Christians(truly christlike people) that the witness is in you being a real christian(as in jesus is in you) living a real life(not a perfect one with kittens n butterflies n sparkly jesus glitter)==being a real friend, having an answer if someone asks, not throwing tracts or chick comics at them(remember those?)

my sisters covenant church(full of swedes haha) celebrates the passover seder as part of easter...the ot is not a irrelevant book, and there are things to learn from the jewish faith that will deepen understanding of the flow of christianity.

messianic jews, i always understood them to be jews that hold jesus christ as THE messiah. in the churches ive been in(covenant, free methodist, four square, calvary chapel), they weren't considered a "sect"(as in, theyre a little "off")

the Rood guy--kinda ironic, "rood" is an old english word for cross. there is a very old 7th century poem, dream of the rood (yes i am an english lit nerd, the celtic christians were fascinating)

*************
laura, "no graven images"--while i understand why you DONT choose to wear a cross, for many people it is a powerful symbol which brings to mind things we should be mindful of, such as, being like jesus, even to death on a cross. kinda like how a lot of people cherish their scars--they are a symbol of going through hell and coming out the other side, and never taking life for granted. or a symbol of how God turns evil into good. i dont wear a cross because i was flogged with the "wearing a cross is a sign of a good girl" thing growing up--yeah i have "issues". but the cross aint repulsive to me, and neither do i ignore what a terrible death it was to be hung on one. 

(and then i could get further off tangent by saying i really disagree with churches who have removed the cross from the building etc, because it is uncomfortable--WTH???? that's the freakin point!)


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

from the wikipedia entry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism
Core doctrines
This section lists some of the main beliefs and doctrines present in Messianic Judaism

God - Messianic Jews believe in God (Adonai of the Bible), and that he is all-powerful, omni-present, eternal, exists outside of creation, and is infinitely significant and benevolent. Messianic Jews believe in the Shema ("Shema Means 'hear' and is the quintessential Jewish text from Dvarim/Deuteronomy 6:4.: 'Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD' showing the uniqueness of the God of Israel. Israel didn't require many gods (like harvest gods, fertility gods, fire gods) The God of Israel is unique and infinite -- He alone is sovereign. The Shema is a confirmation in Torah that Adonai/God is a compound unity ('echad') not as is commonly misunderstood.")[37] Many Messianic Jews are open to trinitarian views of God;[8] some demand monotheism.[38] 
Yeshua as Messiah - Jesus of Nazareth, is believed to be the Jewish Messiah in Messianic Judaism, and accepts Jesus as "the Torah (Word) made flesh" (John, 1:14), and believe he is HaShem.[8][9] Some congregations do not ascribe divinity to Jesus, instead considering him the enfleshed son of God.[39] These however, are rejected by mainstream Messianic Jews in the same way that some Christian groups reject groups with differing Christologies, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses.[40][not in citation given] 
Written Torah - Messianics, with few exceptions, consider the written Torah (Pentateuch), the five books of Moses, to remain fully in force and they therefore believe that it is a holy covenant, which is to be observed both morally and ritually, by those who profess faith in God.[41] They believe that Jesus taught and re-affirmed the Torah, rather than did away with it.[42] 
Israel - It is believed that the Children of Israel were, remain, and will continue to be the chosen people of the God of Jacob, and are central to his plans for existence. Virtually all Messianics (whether Jewish or non-Jewish) can be said to oppose supersessionism (popularly referred to as replacement theology), the view that the Church has replaced Israel in the mind and plans of God.[43] 
The Bible - The Tanakh and the Apostolic Writings (sometimes called the "Bârit Chadasha") are usually considered to be the established and divinely inspired Biblical scriptures by Messianic Jews. 
Biblical eschatology - Most Messianics hold all of the following eschatological beliefs: the End of Days, the Second Coming of Jesus as the conquering Messiah, the re-gathering of Israel, a rebuilt Third Temple, a Resurrection of the Dead (and that Jesus was resurrected after his death), and the Millennial Sabbath. 
Oral Law - Messianic Jewish opinions concerning the âOral Torahâ, encoded in the Talmud, are varied and sometimes conflicting between individual congregations. Some congregations believe that adherence to the Oral Law, as encompassed by the Talmud, is against Messianic beliefs and outright dangerous.[35] Other congregations are selective in their applications of Talmudic law.[44][45] Still others encourage a serious observance of the Jewish Halakha.[46] Virtually all Messianic congregations and synagogues can be said to believe that the oral traditions are subservient to the written Torah. It is important to note that Jesus followed some oral traditions (such as the observance of Hanukkah), but opposed others. 

Additional doctrines

Sin and atonement - Messianics define sin as transgression of the Torah (Law/Instruction) of God (1 John 3: 4-5). Some adherents continue practices intended to atone for their sins - usually involving prayer and rituals relating to repentanceâthat is, acknowledgment of wrongdoing and seeking forgiveness for their sins (esp. on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement). Other Messianics disagree with these practices, believing that all sin (whether committed yet or not) is already atoned for because of Jesus's death and resurrection.[citation needed] 
Faith and works - Messianics draw on Jewish rather than Protestant tradition. In Hebrew there is one word for both faith and faithfulness: Emunah. Most adherents to Messianic Judaism believe in a showing of their faith through righteous works (Jacob 2: 17-26; James 2: 1-26), defined by the Torah. Few Messianics believe that faith and works are mutually exclusive or polarized; most believe that faith in God and righteous works are entirely complementary to each other, and that the one (faith) naturally leads to the other (works) - much like some Christian thinking. Some say that righteousness with God is solely by grace through faith and then acknowledge that works are still very important.[citation needed]


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

ps the rest of the wiki article is a good intro


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

knight88 said:


> Wish that Mama Crow had been able to continue, this could have gotten even more interesting...


I'm not through. I just had to go this morning .. had other obligations that needed to be taken care of ... still do, but was planning on giving my full attention to this thread later tonight.

There are many things I agree with on this thread, and many things I do not.

But if Easy Day is satisfied with the answers he has received there may be no need for me to address anything further. 

I will say this: not ALL MJ sects are identical in their beliefs and practices ... any more than all Baptist sects are identical, or all Catholics are identical, or all Jewish sects are identical, or so on and so forth.

So we really can't lump any one sect into one broad category ... I did that in another thread and, rightfully so, got called out on it.

So, lesson learned.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

I had a very dear friend who was Messianic Jew. She passed away last year, but she really opened my eyes to some things. I believe that we can learn alot from the Jewish faith about Christianity. After all, the roots of Christianity lie in the Jewish faith.


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## Sharon (May 11, 2002)

EasyDay said:


> Sharon, I hope you weren't promoting this guy by posting his link. I think he's a whacko from the word "GO".
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, brother. Only madmen and control freaks even hope for an ability to control others' minds.


I'm not promoting anything. I am a Christian from the word "Go!" However, that was his life prior to his experience with Jesus not after. Paul was a lot different than Saul after his experience. Not caring to get into an argument; it is not my way...I just think you gave him a bad rap without continuing his story. I was just trying to answer your question and he came to mind.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

tinknal said:


> Laura, I think every Christian needs to remember the horrible sacrifice that Jesus made for us. The cross is a symbol of this sacrifice and what had to occur for our salvation. I need to be reminded every day that I am a sinner and that my salvation would be impossible but for what that cross represents.


I see your point. 
My intention was not to be "snarky" but to point out what I saw....that it's a torture device. (Personally, I only have to open my eyes, and draw an audible breath to remind myself I am a sinner!  ) 
But I do totally understand what you are saying....



> Oh, and:
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Laura Zone 5*
> ...


I tried to insert MY emotions, (or lack there of) and my intentions in ( ) before and after a comment to let the reader know I was not trying to be hateful, or sassy, or whatever. I tried to express what I was asking / seeking? I try to keep "emotions" out of discussions like this. They are never helpful!! 

You are right. Anyone can believe anything they want.
I can believe that certain weather events are individual politicians fault.
I can believe that the oil spill in the gulf was a consipiracy theory.
I can believe that Bugs Bunny shot JFK.

But if I express my belief, someone will ask me "why" do I believe this way, and then they will ask me "to quote my sources".
If my answer then becomes "well, it's what *I*" believe.....
I lose my credibility. 
As a Believer in Christ, I have Scripture to be my "source".

Messianc Jews, though they have a deeper understanding of who God is, and have a deeper sense of obedience to The Lord, this is still, a religion.
Meaning there are still, rules made by man, that they follow as if they were Created by God. 

I stand by my first post:



> If you want to gain, understanding, Take God's Word, pray for the Spirit to lead you in all Truth, sit down with His Word, and let it be your bread and water....you sustenance. Stay away from 'preachers and churchy books'.
> 
> You don't need them.
> You have The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit and His FULL Counsel (The Word of God)
> You don't need anything else!!!


All of the answers you seek are in Scripture! 

There is some great information in this thread......


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

shanzone2001 said:


> My question (and perhaps that of the OP) is how do you claim to be Jewish and Christian when Christ is our (Christians) Messiah and the Jews do not believe the Messiah has come?
> As a Christian, I have been taught to pray for and support the Jews because they are God's chosen people. I believe the entire Word of God, but the New Testament is what I follow because I believe Jesus is my Messiah. He is the Sacrificial Lamb, and therefore Christians do not follow the Old Testament in regard to making sacrifices. Jesus has already made the ultimate sacrifice.
> To me, that is the major difference between Christians and Jews.
> I am now intrigued as to how a Messianic Jew can support both views.


I have a dear friend who was born a Jew (Jewish parents). She became a Christian and now calls herself a "completed Jew". She celebrates Christian holidays with fellow believers and celebrates the Jewish holidays with her mother. Is she Messianic?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

> I have a dear friend who was born a Jew (Jewish parents). She became a Christian and now calls herself a "completed Jew". She celebrates Christian holidays with fellow believers and celebrates the Jewish holidays with her mother. Is she Messianic?


If she is a Believer in Christ, if she has confessed with her mouth and Believed in her heart that Christ is Lord, then....(Romans 10:8-10)
She is a Believer. She is saved. She has accepted the Gift of Salvation.(John 3:16 ) She is a Child of God.(John 1:11-13 /Romans 8:15-17) Daughter of the King!!(1 Peter 3:5-7) Friend!(John 15:14-16)

Go through Scripture and see what the Lord call's us once we Believe.

There is a huge difference between 'celebrating holidays' and Keeping the Commands....
"Celebrating holidays, is secular / pagan".
Keeping the Commands, is obedience to the Lord. And that is what counts.

If she is a Believer....that's the big thing. She is Saved Praise the Lord!!
The closer she draws to Him the further she will flee from secular and pagan holidays, and man made rituals. The nearer she will draw to the Commanded Feasts and Festivals!!


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## hmsteader71 (Mar 16, 2006)

I have hesitated to jump in here so when I post this please know that I post in love. My husband and I began about 8 years ago exploring the Jewish roots of our faith. I won't go into everything but we wound up in what was called a Messianic Synagogue and were there not quite a year. We began, before going there, trying to observe Sabbath. As we have learned of the feasts we do our best to observe them. But let me say that we fall far short of being able to do so. He and I are gentiles saved by grace. We are not Jewish, we are "Messianic" only because we believe Jesus Christ (Yeshua) to be our Messiah.
We have discussed many, many times over the years the Old and New Covenants, the Torah, eating kosher, keeping the feasts and whether we are bound by law to do so. I will not go into everything we have heard, been told or had taught us. I want to give a couple scriptures for others to think on other than the ones already posted here. To save space, I am only posting the references except for maybe a couple.
Galatians 3:10-29; Galatians 4:1-31 (21 & 31)-"Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?" "So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free."
Hebrews 8, 9 & 10 (9:11-18)-But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 
For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 
how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

There is one thing that I believe is worth pointing out that most of us are forgetting. The very first Christian churches were composed entirely of "Messianic Jews", and all of our churches owe their existence to those faithful followers of Christ who shared the Gospel and their faith with their Gentile neighbors.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

wyld thang said:


> *************
> laura, "no graven images"--while i understand why you DONT choose to wear a cross, for many people it is a powerful symbol which brings to mind things we should be mindful of, such as, being like jesus, even to death on a cross. kinda like how a lot of people cherish their scars--they are a symbol of going through hell and coming out the other side, and never taking life for granted. or a symbol of how God turns evil into good. i dont wear a cross because i was flogged with the "wearing a cross is a sign of a good girl" thing growing up--yeah i have "issues". but the cross aint repulsive to me, and neither do i ignore what a terrible death it was to be hung on one.
> 
> (and then i could get further off tangent by saying i really disagree with churches who have removed the cross from the building etc, because it is uncomfortable--WTH???? that's the freakin point!)


First, can I say, I TOTALLY appreciate your "real, honest and blunt" approach. I totally appreciate someone who 'spits it out'!!!:goodjob:

I too agree with your 'further' tangent. Christ was nailed to the cross....and if 'churches' were 'removing the cross' because "people were focusing on the cross to the point it was becoming and Idol, or a Graven Image" then I would agree TOTALLY with the church.
But most are removing it because it is "harsh and mean and scary" and those things don't 'sell seats' in the house.....
((Think when Christ turn over the money tables at The Temple....angry that they had turned the House of Prayer into a 'market'"........))

I really appreciate your 'real-ness'!! Thanks!!


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

I'm renouncing my abandonment, and will post this one last time. Mainly, because there's no one here to talk some sense into me.



Laura Zone 5 said:


> But if I express my belief, someone will ask me "why" do I believe this way, and then they will ask me "to quote my sources".
> If my answer then becomes "well, it's what *I*" believe.....
> *I lose my credibility. *
> As a Believer in Christ, I have Scripture to be my "source".


Laura, understand that I don't care if I come across as "credible" to you.
Many beliefs are based on feelings, intuition, instincts, and/or personal experiences throughout one's life.
You don't know me, nor do you know my beliefs.
The very definition of "faith" is to have trust and confidence in something that cannot often be proven.
I'm sure you can quote scripture on being "quick to judge".

On the subject of crosses:



Laura Zone 5 said:


> But most are removing it because it is "harsh and mean and scary"...


This, coming from you... who accused me of wearing a "torture device" around my neck because I wear a cross.
Let's see... what were you saying about credibility?

You've turned this thread into the typical "religious" thread that I avoid because of holier-than-thou snarkiness. YOU, Laura, are the type of "Christian" my mother warned me about.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

deaconjim said:


> There is one thing that I believe is worth pointing out that most of us are forgetting. The very first Christian churches were composed entirely of "Messianic Jews", and all of our churches owe their existence to those faithful followers of Christ who shared the Gospel and their faith with their Gentile neighbors.


Absolutely, Jim. Tinknal brought that up, too.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Easy Day, I am sorry I have hurt your feelings. It was never my intention.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I too agree with your 'further' tangent. Christ was nailed to the cross....and if 'churches' were 'removing the cross' because "people were focusing on the cross to the point it was becoming and Idol, or a Graven Image" then I would agree TOTALLY with the church.
> But most are removing it because it is "harsh and mean and scary" and those things don't 'sell seats' in the house.....


I don't know of any Church removing it because its scary. I do know of some that have removed it to better focus on the Teachings of Christ rather than on His death. 
Lots of people were killed for their faith
Lots of people were killed on a cross
Only 1 took upon himself the sins of the world and after death rose again.
So to focusd on that one event, needful though it was, does not do justice to what He taught IMHO.


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## momofseven (Oct 10, 2008)

EasyDay said:


> Okay, right off the bat, here's his Mission Statement:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds Jewish to me.


I think that is your answer... Being a Jewish is not only a religion or or a doctrine, it is a way of life, it is their being (no, I am not a Jew). And because their nationality encompasses both (spiritual and nationality) it is important to delineate the change. So... A MJ is still holding on to their "Jewishness" (plz...I am not being disrespectful) and also embracing the Messiah. Just my thoughts on the matter.

I'd also like to commend the posters for keeping this on topic too. I have enjoyed reading this. Here's another opinion.... Acts 15 clearly tells us (the gentiles) what we are expected to keep from the Torah. Acts 15 certainly does not limit us in the keeping of the old covenants if we so desire, but it is not a criteria.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> So to focusd on that one event, needful though it was, does not do justice to what He taught IMHO.


This brings up an interesting point. (I hope the minor thread drift will be forgiven.) 

Somewhere (I think in Corinthians) Paul says that unless the Christ's resurrection was real, his followers' faith is futile, even foolish. I have always found this to be a curious idea, as it appears to entirely discount Christ's teachings (aside from those concerning the Resurrection, presumably). Obviously this is at odds with my own beliefs (while I admire Christ's teachings, I believe the Resurrection was an invention of his disciples). Or, to put it another way: I think Christ has something to offer even those who do not believe in his deity or resurrection.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

momofseven said:


> *I'd also like to commend the posters for keeping this on topic too. I have enjoyed reading this. *
> 
> YES!! I agree... and ME TOO..
> 
> This is an enjoyable thread and a model for how discourse can be productive.


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

willow_girl said:


> This brings up an interesting point. (I hope the minor thread drift will be forgiven.)
> 
> Somewhere (I think in Corinthians) Paul says that unless the Christ's resurrection was real, his followers' faith is futile, even foolish. I have always found this to be a curious idea, as it appears to entirely discount Christ's teachings (aside from those concerning the Resurrection, presumably). Obviously this is at odds with my own beliefs (while I admire Christ's teachings, I believe the Resurrection was an invention of his disciples). Or, to put it another way: I think Christ has something to offer even those who do not believe in his deity or resurrection.


The things that Christ taught are indeed admirable and useful for living a good life, but the mission of Christ was to atone for the sins of the world. His life, death, and resurrection accomplished that mission.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

willow_girl said:


> This brings up an interesting point. (I hope the minor thread drift will be forgiven.)
> 
> Somewhere (I think in Corinthians) Paul says that unless the Christ's resurrection was real, his followers' faith is futile, even foolish. I have always found this to be a curious idea, as it appears to entirely discount Christ's teachings (aside from those concerning the Resurrection, presumably). Obviously this is at odds with my own beliefs (while I admire Christ's teachings, *I believe the Resurrection was an invention of his disciples*). Or, to put it another way: I think Christ has something to offer even those who do not believe in his deity or resurrection.


Willow, if I'm not mistaken, people of Judaism also believe that Jesus was a Jewish man who was executed and later given divine status by the Christian church.

Jill or someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that, or expound on it as necessary.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

momofseven said:


> Acts 15 certainly does not limit us in the keeping of the old covenants if we so desire, but it is not a criteria.


Thanks, momof7. That's just what I need to read to verify my belief.


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## whodunit (Mar 29, 2004)

With regard to titles or labels, IIRC the term "Christian" (meaning "little Christ", i.e., "these people act or think they are little Christs") was one of derision. Those it was thrust upon embraced it and took it as a compliment. I believe others titles followers were given were: "disciples of Christ" and "followers of the Way". There were probably others that escape me right now.


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