# No epi pin



## BasicLiving (Oct 2, 2006)

Well, I called my doctor's office today and naturally she is WAY to busy to actually TALK to me, so I had to leave a message and then correspond with a nurse that relayed messages between me and the doctor. I explained that we recently purchased 6 hives of honey bees and would like a couple of epi pins - just in case. The nurse called back and said the doctor said no - epi pins are adrenaline and should only be used in an emergency. I told her that's EXACTLY why we want them. Our property is about 30 miles from the nearest hospital - and that's down roads that will take at least 40 minutes. I told her we don't anticipate ever needing them, but with that many bees, it seemed wise to be prepared. She said "Let me talk to the doctor again and call you back." When she called back she said "The doctor says if you get stung take benedryl and if it's really bad, call 911." :flame: 

So that's that. I am SO annoyed. I don't think we'll ever need the epi pins, but it gave me a level of comfort thinking about having them around just in case. Oh well......

We're heading out to the homestead this weekend after being gone for 2 weeks for Christmas. We're both very anxious to make sure the bees are ok. We also got some straps to put on the hives and replace the tie downs we originially used. And I got a new veil that is attached to a jacket! I'm pretty happy about that. The veil I was using seemed pretty floppy around the neck.

Penny


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

My doctor wasn't asked to scrip Epi Pens for us. She knows we had bees and said she wanted us to have them just in case and wrote a script.
Now if it were me I would look at it as more than one way to skin the cat. First thing I would do is search for a different doctor. Even if I had to pay an office call to get a scrip I would.
Call 9-1-1 for bee stings may find you waiting for a mighty long time for help to decide it just might be important enough to respond.
Yes we do carry benidril. Kare will stop in the middle of what ever she is doing to take one if she gets stung. I might take one if stung several times, several being a whole lot.

 Al


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## BasicLiving (Oct 2, 2006)

There were several posts to this thread that are missing since the server issue the other day. Someone had posted about liquid benedril and an inhaler. I wanted to PM about it, but now the post is missing. Will that person please PM me?

Al, I think you're right and when things settle down from the holidays, I'm going to see if I can find another doctor to prescribe the epi-pen. The office I go to has several docs, and I have a feeling if I make an apt. and actually talk face to face with one of them, they may be more willing to write the prescription. Like I mentioned in the earlier post, I had to go through a nurse who relayed messages back and forth.

I'll be sure to carry benedril when we are around the bees. By the way - we are out at our homestead through Wednesday. We got here last night after being out of state for 2 weeks during the Christmas holidays. While we were gone, there were high winds here and lots of rain. We were really nervous and pretty worried about the bees and how we had set them up. But when we got here last night, we went straight to the bees and they seem just fine! It was almost dark, so the hives were very quiet, but we put our ears close to each hive and we could hear them buzzing away! I can't tell you how relieved we were! 

Today we're heading into town to get a solar fence for them. We have the fencing, but need the solar unit and some fence posts. We'll feel better once we get that up. I've mentioned before that we do have bears here - but they didn't mess with them while we were gone. We don't want to take a chance though......

Thanks!
Penny


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

I don't know how it is where you live, but here the EMTs are only allowed (under medical direction) to administer EPI pens that have been prescribed by the patient's doctor. I'm not sure the ambulances even carry them.


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## NWoods_Hippie (Nov 16, 2006)

I am severely allergic to bees, and my question to you is are you asking this question because you worry that you or your spouse will become allergic to bees over time or because you are worried that someone visiting your property who is allergic will be stung?

Margie


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## BasicLiving (Oct 2, 2006)

I don't really worry - but I want to be prepared just in case my husband or I have a reaction. Particularly if we are stung several times at once.

The bees are located about 1/4 mile from where our house is. Tomorrow we will be putting up an electric fence (solar) around the hives. We are doing this first and foremost to keep bears away - but we are hoping it would discourage humans and other animals from getting too close as well. I also saw some little signs that say something like there are bees around here and I'm thinking of ordering them.

Penny


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## blue gecko (Jun 14, 2006)

My post was about the inhaler and liquid benedril. I was taught this by a MD during a wilderness EMT class. I'm not an MD and simply wanted to share some FYI info. What you do with it is up to you just be wise. 

Primateem Mist is epinephrine. One dose is about 3/4 the dose of an epi pen. It doesn't require the careful temp regulation that epi pens do and is considerably cheaper and available OTC. I consider it a good addition to an emergency kit...for when you in a dire situation only.

Benedryl liquicaps can be punctured and emptied under the tongue for a quick delivery and in most cases would be the preferred first response.

Hope this gives you some information to explore.


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## BasicLiving (Oct 2, 2006)

Blue Gecko - I PMed you. Thanks!

Penny


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

This is an opinion:

Anyone who suspects that they are so allergic to bee stings that they require the use of an epi pen SHOULD NOT BE KEEPING BEES!!!! The true allergy to bee stings is a deadly thing and one should not assume that benadryl or an epi pen is all that is required. The doctor has more logic in this case than the patient. Epi pens are prescription items because they themselves are dangerous--not at all like aspirin. 

To have swollen hands, a fat lip or closed eyes after being stung several times is not evidence of allergy, it is simply the lack of exposure. Get stung regularly and the swelling is less intense. There IS one type of allergy that manifests itself in gross swelling, but that type is not dangerous.

Now, if someone is simply a wimp and believes that they should use an epi pen after a dozen or so bee stings, they need either an attitude adjustment or a better bee suit. 

Benadryl is a bit different. When children are stung the pain is generally secondary to the swelling and itch that follow. Same for an adult stung many times--twenty to thirty stings on my hands in a day leave the hands swollen and itching--I'm used to it and I do not use anything for it, but if the grandchildren are stung heavily they get benadryl. They seldom require it because one or two stings cause them to leave the area. 

Most hobby beekeepers learn to work their bees in good weather, in light colored clothing while clean, not smelling of sweat or animal scents, gently and without excessive jarring of the hives. Under such circumstances not even a veil is required. I, and many others, can work bees in good circumstances with only a hive tool and smoker while wearing a short sleeved shirt. If the bees are not in a good mood and I get stung ten or fifteen times, or on the nose or eyelids, I go get a long sleeved shirt and my veil. 
Ox


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## BasicLiving (Oct 2, 2006)

Oxankle,

Thanks for your opinion. Clearly, I'm an idiot. And here I thought I was just trying to be as careful and prepared as possible. I defer to your immense knowledge and wisdom.

Thanks for sharing. Happy New Year.

Penny


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Oxankle said:


> This is an opinion:
> 
> Anyone who suspects that they are so allergic to bee stings that they require the use of an epi pen SHOULD NOT BE KEEPING BEES!!!! The true allergy to bee stings is a deadly thing and one should not assume that benadryl or an epi pen is all that is required. The doctor has more logic in this case than the patient. Epi pens are prescription items because they themselves are dangerous--not at all like aspirin.
> 
> ...


I agree with your first paragraph, Oxankle, but it isn't true that swelling (other than where the sting occurred) is not evidence of allergic reaction.
Swelling...especially around the eyes is a huge indication of an allergic reaction. It may stop there and the next time it could be a whole lot worse, ie: anaphylaxis. Benadryl is not for pain and swelling...it is an antihistamine: used to lessen symptoms of an allergy. It won't do much if you go into anaphylactic shock. The more you are exposed to a particular allergan (the more often you are stung if you are allergic) the more likely it is that you will have a "big" reaction.

BasicLiving, you need to see an allergist and be tested if you have ever had any reaction to a bee sting. If you are allergic to other things (like a wasp sting) the likelihood is increased that you will be allergic to other things. I have dealt with an extremely allergic daughter for the past 18 years and I can tell you that very few people really know what an allergy actually is. 
I would hate to see anything happen to you. Please take this very seriously. I didn't till I had my daughter and realized how easily I could lose her.

Here is a web site to check out:
http://www.hmc.psu.edu/healthinfo/b/beesting.htm

*Bee Sting Allergy 
What is it?
Bee sting allergies occur in people who have an abnormally high sensitivity to bee stings, which cause a physical reaction. Allergic reactions to bee stings can be life threatening.

Who gets it?
Anyone can suffer allergic reactions to bee stings. Although more people die from severe allergic reactions to bee stings each year than from snake bites, only a small number of people with bee sting allergies suffer these types of fatal reactions. 

What causes it?
An allergic reaction occurs when the immune system produces antibodies and other disease fighting cells in response to an allergen, in this case the bee sting. The antibodies release chemicals that actually injure the surrounding cells and cause the physical symptoms of an allergic reaction. Certain antibodies release histamines, which affect the skin, mucous membrane, mucous gland, and smooth muscle cells. Life-threatening allergic reactions can occur without any previous symptoms of allergy. In fact, most people with bee sting allergies do not experience a severe reaction with their first sting. Multiple stings increase the risk of an allergic reaction, but just one sting will cause serious symptoms for someone who is severely allergic.

What are the symptoms?
Bee sting allergy symptoms often begin with a dry cough. Then, the eye area begins to itch and swell. As symptoms progress, the patient begins to sneeze and wheeze, and develop hives that itch. These symptoms may be warning signs of a dangerous condition called anaphylaxis. Symptoms include sudden anxiety and weakness, difficulty breathing, tightness in the chest, very low blood pressure, loss of consciousness, and shock. Anaphylactic shock can occur within minutes and result in death. A patient in anaphylactic shock needs immediate medical treatment.

How is it diagnosed?
Bee sting allergies are diagnosed according to the specific symptoms that follow a bee sting. 

What is the treatment?
People who are allergic to bee stings should, of course, avoid situations in which they are likely to get stung. Anaphylactic shock is treated with an injection of epinephrine, a hormone that stimulates the heart and relaxes the airways. This may be combined with an injection of an antihistamine, which counteracts the histamine produced by the immune cells during an allergic reaction. Those who are known to have severe bee sting allergies should carry a self-injection kit, including antihistamine tablets, for emergency treatment. However, they should still seek medical care after any type of reaction to a bee sting. People who are severely allergic may undergo a desensitization program, in which a series of injections of bee venom are given in increasingly larger doses until the body shows that it can be tolerated. This type of program must be administered by an allergy specialist and it may take anywhere from 15 to 20 weeks to develop an immunity. These are followed up with monthly booster shots.

. *


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I have went pass what I consider keeping bees as a side line or hobby. We carry 2 epi pens at all times, not for use if stung 10 or 20 times but for when the case may arrive when breathing may become difficult, one of the first signs of anaphylaxis shock.
As I said we did not ask our doctor for a script. She gave it to us and told us to fill it and keep it handy. She told us the signs to look for also. When the expiration date runs out we're to call her for a new script.
We had a doctor come to one of our bee meetings and talk about anaphylaxis shock, then show the members how to use a epi pen, we even praticed giving oranges shots.
I call the epi pens we carry insurance, a saftey line till help can arrive.

Is well and good one is able to never have to do things in the bee yard except when the sun is shining and a flow is on. But for some that isn't able to be done. We have to do things on cloudy days or they never will get done or finished.
With the cost of fuel and the price of honey what they are today, when 20 miles from home in a bee yard and it starts to sprinkle you finish the job.

 Al


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## the kid (Jul 9, 2006)

If you read the post it did NOT say if we get stung ,nor did it say they were allergic to bees . they are 40 min from the nearest hospital ... . if you suddenly become severely allergic to bees ,,and this happens from one sting to the next , and you do not have a pen ... better start making some fast plans ......as you say if your allergic to bees and still are a beekeeper you may have a death wish........... better safe then sorry


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Lisa:

I do not suggest that Benadryl is a fix-all for bee stings. Benadryl has its own consequences. It IS safe enough in the doses commonly given to use when stings produce painful swelling and itch that make a child miserable, but it will make the heart race. 

Of course it is given for allergies, but not all allergies are the same. The allergy that causes flesh to swell and itch is not the same as that allergy that swells the lungs and tongue and chokes one to death. Native peoples all over the undeveloped world work bad, really bad, bees with only torches for smoke, and of course they are stung. No benadryl, no epi-pens. If one is so allergic to bees that an epi-pen is required one had better not be keeping bees. 

Further, I have never heard of the killer reaction arriving without notice. All those I have ever heard of came with earlier, less severe warnings. This may not be always true, but I suspect those who die have been warned not to play with stinging insects--bees, wasps, hornets and the like. 

As for working bees in the rain, commercial beekeepers do things the hobbyist would not do, such as turn over loaded trucks, palletize bees and move them with forklifts and yes, work them in bad weather. Such people generally have the very best of bee suit and veil combinations with gloves. I never heard of one who was not familiar with the symptoms of anaphylactic shock, and I have read of several who were hospitalized with the normal reaction to multiple bee stings. I cannot imagine a pro continuing to keep bees once they knew that they were so allergic. This is NOT like a broken wrist, it is life threatening, epi-pen or no. 
Ox


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## wildhorse (Oct 22, 2006)

Some people are allergic to Benadryl it would kill me long before the bee sting would. :help:


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## Iddee (Sep 25, 2005)

I have seen a potentially deadly reaction the first hint the guy was allergic. In fact, it was a beekeeper who had been stung many times for years. The first reaction he ever had was a full blown case with hives from head to foot, itching,
Lips swelling, breath slowing, all from a single sting below the knee. Also, many seem to forget bee sting is not the only allergy an epi-pen is used for. Living 40 minutes from medical help without an epi-pen, when you are familiar with one, and it is available, is nothing less than a suicide wish, whether you keep bees or not. Tell me, lisa, would you live that far away from medical help with your daughter without an epi? Even if there wasn't a bee within 10 miles. I'm sure you are quite aware of the many other possible allergies that can cause the onset of anaphylactic shock. My wife has used hers twice in the last 5 years and has not been stung by any bee. I will never be without one. It is too cheap and easy to learn life saving device to not have one on hand. The last time I called 911 for an ambulance for a reaction, the 911 operator had never heard of anaphylactic shock. She would not dispatch unless I answered all her inquiring, unneeded questions, until I went berserk on the phone and threatened her if my wife didn't make it because of her stupidity.

Basic living, get training on the use of one and get it. It is a small price to pay for insurance, if you never use it. It is priceless if you do use it. They can be used for many different allergies and can even be used on horses or other animals. Then, even if you quit keeping bees, living out like you do, continue keeping it current for as long as you live there.


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## BasicLiving (Oct 2, 2006)

Thank you for the post Iddee. And The Kid is right - I never said I have ever had an allergic reaction to bee stings. 

In the past few years I seem to react a little worse to all types of stings - including mosquitoes. When Al mentioned he carries an epi-pen, I thought it sounded like a good idea and would give me a level of comfort having the bees around. I pray I would never have to use it, but it seems stupid to me not have one if possible, with the nearest medical help being 40 minutes away. NO I would not use it simply because I got stung one, ten or one hundred times. I would only use if the situation was such that I feared for my life - and then only to make it to the emergency room.

The bees are my husband's. He loves them. They are something I hope to share with him. I am conquoring my fear of bees. We spent yesterday putting up an electric fence within a few feet of them. They came out from time to time to check it all out, but they didn't scare me at all. I have actually developed an affection for them, as silly as that may sound.

My husband will likely be the only one that tends to the hives, and I will help extract the honey and use the bees wax. That's the plan. But I've overcome bigger things than a fear of bees before, so we'll see what happens in time. I am interested in the epi-pin as a "just in case" measure only. Not only for me, but my husband as well. It just seems wise to me.

I plan to make an appointment to chat with the doctor and explain why I am requesting the epi-pin. I will also ask where I can find instruction for it.

Many thanks,
Penny


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Iddee said:


> Tell me, lisa, would you live that far away from medical help with your daughter without an epi? .


Uh, no...I do live far out and I do have a number of epi-pens for my daughter. Did you have some idea that I'm against BL having an epi-pen? It is a prescription drug and she needs to see a doctor to get the scrip. 
Actually, I thought our posts were pretty much in agreement. Am I missing something?


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## Iddee (Sep 25, 2005)

>>>>Uh, no...I do live far out and I do have a number of epi-pens for my daughter. Did you have some idea that I'm against BL having an epi-pen? It is a prescription drug and she needs to see a doctor to get the scrip.
Actually, I thought our posts were pretty much in agreement. Am I missing something?<<<<

Lisa, the cold unfeeling form of communication called print many times does give the wrong impression. If I was wrong, I'm sorry. I do apologize.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

i guess i have a death wish, but i am uncertain about the allergy. when i was younger, i got stung several times per year by various bees. it was never a big deal. my dad used to keep bees when i was young. after he passed on, we got rid of the hives. i plan to get a few hives this spring, but i do have a few reservations.

over the past decade, and i am now in my thirties, bee stings seem to swell more than they used to. i haven't been stung by a honey bee in many years, but have been hammered a few times by others, mostly yellowjackets. last year, i was nailed on the top of the head by a hornet or a yellowjacket, i never saw it so i was not sure. several things happened. i got very angry because i was in a hurry to get stuff done. this aggrevated the sting. my adrenalin was pumping from being angry. well, my heart rate never went back down and i eventually got a thick feeling throat. my mom nearly went into shock once from a bee sting and there was an epipen at the house. i decided to use it, not knowing if i had developed an allergy like she had. she had not had much trouble when she was younger, but when she nearly died in later life, she got the pens. that epipen made me sicker than a dog. my throat eventually loosened up, but i was sick for many hours and had a fever. i wish i had just taken benedryl.


so i still have a few questions...

was i actually allergic to the sting or did my anger amplify the effect?

am i allergic to the epipens or is that typical?

can bee allergies get worse over time? i was ok when young. honeybees hardly bothered me at all and i have no recent experience with their stings. i know that many folks are ok with honeybees and have issues with other bees.

what i know for sure...

i will not let myself get that angry when stung again.

i will not use an epipen. i will take benedryl.

i will still try to keep bees this year. luckily i am only 7 miles from a hospital.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

"can bee allergies get worse over time?"

Answer to that question is yes. Has been more than one beekeeper after 20 or more years that has happened too.

 Al


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## the kid (Jul 9, 2006)

an old keeper came to work one day in the spring with his hand like a club .. he said some years he didnt hardly know he was bite.. and others it made a big swelling ..he wasnt looking forward to that summer .. the next summer we never knew if he got bite or notaas he didnt swell up. dont know if that is norm or not..
the kid


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Epi Pens are like insurance. You hope you never have to use it but are so glad you had it when you do have to.
19 at the bee meeting last night, Poll do you have an up to date epi pen? 15 yes, 4 have expired pens. Ours expired in Oct.. 

After a winter lay off many bee keepers will swell after the first few stings in the spring. they seem to swell less at the summer goes by like my Kare.

 Al


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Meloc, the venom from a yellowjacket is NOT the same as from a honey bee!

And, yes, a swelling throat is a sign of a SYSTEMIC allergy, which is dangerous.

A LOCAL reaction is not dangerous. A LOCAL reaction is LOCAL swelling and itching. You will swell worse if it has been a while since you were stung. A local reaction is just how humans react.

I cannot answer about the side effects of the epi-pen, because benedryl has covered it for me. I am also allergic to yellow jackets, though I have never reacted to my honey bees.


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