# Banding and Tetanus



## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

I have a 3 bull calves that are 7 or so months old and I am going to band them. I borrowed a callicrate bander from someone at work and I'd like so I'd like to get it done this weekend so I can give it back. I know the recommended protocol is to give a tetanus shot 3 weeks before banding and then one at the time of banding. Would it still be effective to give them one shot at banding and on 3 weeks later. Also, can you buy the appropriate tetanus toxoid from Fleet Farm (for you midwesterners) or Tractor Supply?


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## gundog10 (Dec 9, 2014)

I banded 10 calves this past spring with no tetanus shots. The year before my vet did 5 calves with no shots. My calves were on pasture and have not had any issues.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

I've never used a shot.


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Goat Kids and baby calves, banded over 100 and never gave the shot, no problems.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

I don't give tetanus shots when banding either, but I band as soon as the calf is dry. I asked my vet years ago and he said he wouldn't worry about it for newborn calves. There is a risk, but it is a minuscule one. 

I believe older, larger calves and heavier steel reinforced bands create a higher level of risk.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Tetanus isn't much of a concern in cattle.

Banding a bull after 4 or 5 months should be your focus. Expect infections. Seven months "or so" is too big/old for effective banding. 

As with many things in life, a failure to take an appropriate action at an appropriate time results in either added costs or added problems, likely infections.

IMHO, failure to band when a few weeks old results in either added cost to have the Vet castrate or the real risk in attempting to band well beyond the recommended age/size. 

As an aside, independent studies have shown that vaccines at farm stores are often ineffective. Apparently, maintaining correct temperatures throughout the chain from pharmaceutical company to end user is less than ideal.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

haypoint said:


> Tetanus isn't much of a concern in cattle.
> 
> Banding a bull after 4 or 5 months should be your focus. Expect infections. Seven months "or so" is too big/old for effective banding.
> 
> ...


The op is using the appropriate tool for the job, a tool that is almost single handedly responsible for cutting the spread in price between feeder steers and cutting bulls.


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

Thank for the advice all. I got it done yesterday - those Callicrate banders are really slick. I'm almost sad I won't be able to use one again. I'll definitely be banding at birth from now on. I had been sold the idea that I should wait to band to increase growth, but for my operation the little bit of extra gain isn't worth it. My cattle are out on pasture all winter so the three boys will be on fresh clean snow and fresh bedding (I unroll a bale every other day for them) for a couple more months. Hopefully those conditions will help stave off infections.

Also, thank you haypoint for your backdoor insults and doomsday scenarios. Always a treat.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

pfettig77 said:


> Thank for the advice all. I got it done yesterday - those Callicrate banders are really slick. I'm almost sad I won't be able to use one again. I'll definitely be banding at birth from now on. I had been sold the idea that I should wait to band to increase growth, but for my operation the little bit of extra gain isn't worth it. My cattle are out on pasture all winter so the three boys will be on fresh clean snow and fresh bedding (I unroll a bale every other day for them) for a couple more months. Hopefully those conditions will help stave off infections.
> 
> Also, thank you haypoint for your backdoor insults and doomsday scenarios. Always a treat.


I think a steer is more likely to go backwards at an older age than a younger one.

I often keep a couple bull calves intact to see if they are herd bull material (either for me or another producer), so I cut, band or crimp yearling bulls yearly. Almost without fail, these "top' bull prospects are ahead of the pack before castration and are either even or behind their banded at birth compadres after castration.

That's just one guys' observation.


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

Gravytrain said:


> I think a steer is more likely to go backwards at an older age than a younger one.
> 
> I often keep a couple bull calves intact to see if they are herd bull material (either for me or another producer), so I cut, band or crimp yearling bulls yearly. Almost without fail, these "top' bull prospects are ahead of the pack before castration and are either even or behind their banded at birth compadres after castration.
> 
> That's just one guys' observation.


That's really interesting. Actual evidence (including a control group - good science) to band at a younger age. The debate may rage on, but I'm going to band shortly after they hit the ground. Thanks for the advice.


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## Empire (Jan 7, 2016)

I prefer to band young also. In the first few weeks works best for me. Calves are smaller and there is no need to run them thru the chute. Older calves are bigger and therefore the risk of injury to me or the calf goes up. Not worth the risk.


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## raisinem (Jul 27, 2016)

I cringe listening to you folks talk about not worrying about tetanus... Its a cheap insurance shot... Why wouldn't you? Do you drive around with no car insurance because you never got into an accident ? I band some but mostly cut my calves and ALWAYS give the tetanus shot. Chew on this a 5.00 bottle of vaccine vs a potential to lose a 500.00 calf


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## Empire (Jan 7, 2016)

Some folks don't vaccinate for anything..... Their choice, their money. I do vaccinate for certain illnesses, but not tetanus. Cheap insurance yes, but I am also conscience of the food that I produce.


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

Empire said:


> Some folks don't vaccinate for anything..... Their choice, their money. I do vaccinate for certain illnesses, but not tetanus. Cheap insurance yes, but I am also conscience of the food that I produce.


Out of curiosity, why vaccinate for other things but not tetanus if you're conscientious of the food you produce? I'm still pretty new to this and don't know what some of the fears are with certain vaccines or other treatments.


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

In regards to handling a bigger calf that can be potentially more dangerous (this was my biggest concern), we created a set up so I wouldn't get kicked. Our head gate is too small for this size cattle, so we just close it and put a board behind them when they run into the chute. One of the calves was big enough to put a anti-kick clamp on. The other two we put a second board under the belly just in front of the hind legs. With that set up they couldn't kick. It worked pretty slick.


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## raisinem (Jul 27, 2016)

Empire said:


> Some folks don't vaccinate for anything..... Their choice, their money. I do vaccinate for certain illnesses, but not tetanus. Cheap insurance yes, but I am also conscience of the food that I produce.


Why vaccinate for anything then ????????????:frypan: that to me sounds like a person talking with a paper a hole... We as humans generally take tetanus shots. Please enlighten all of us as to what sense that makes. What meds are in your vaccination program? Do you have a program? Or do you just throw out nonsense to make it sound cool ?


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

raisinem said:


> Why vaccinate for anything then ????????????:frypan: that to me sounds like a person talking with a paper a hole... We as humans generally take tetanus shots. Please enlighten all of us as to what sense that makes. What meds are in your vaccination program? Do you have a program? Or do you just throw out nonsense to make it sound cool ?


Good grief dude...lighten up. What's it to you? Nobody is ridiculing you for administering the vaccine. Many of us don't find it necessary. I've never lost a calf to tetanus out of several hundred banded bulls. I band out on pasture and carry ear tags and bands. I don't have much room for vials in my pockets when I tackle and flip bull calves. I immunize with triangle 10 before winter sets in. Their mothers' get boosters every year.

If my vet recommended that I give tetanus shots when banding newborn calves then I would. He doesn't, so I do not.


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## raisinem (Jul 27, 2016)

Gravytrain said:


> Good grief dude...lighten up. What's it to you? Nobody is ridiculing you for administering the vaccine. Many of us don't find it necessary. I've never lost a calf to tetanus out of several hundred banded bulls. I band out on pasture and carry ear tags and bands. I don't have much room for vials in my pockets when I tackle and flip bull calves. I immunize with triangle 10 before winter sets in. Their mothers' get boosters every year.
> 
> If my vet recommended that I give tetanus shots when banding newborn calves then I would. He doesn't, so I do not.



The statement is insinuating that tetanus shots are something to be afraid of in your meat. It is not anymore dangerous than any other vaccine that folks put in their cattle. The general public does not need someone who doesn't know any better spread any b.s. farmers always get a bad wrap because of things we may or may not use because general public does not understand. I would venture to say many on here are not BQA certified.


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## Empire (Jan 7, 2016)

Wow, crucify me for making a statement. Jeez. No I don't have a paper a hole. Yes I have a vaccination program, and yes my vet has approved it and no she doesn't recommend I give a tetanus shot. 
Why should I immunize? Just because? If I and my vet felt it necessary to immunize for it I would. I'm not advocating against it, I am merely stating what I do. What you do is your business. 
My statement of being conscience of my food isn't meant to say that if you immunized for tetanus then your beef is bad, it's ment to say that I don't treat for something just because I can. I am conscience about what i put in the cattle, and what the purpose of the vaccination is for.
I don't get a flu shot either, does that make me a bad person or have a paper a hole too? Come on now.....


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

I agree with Haypoint, banding should be done early. Don't see how that is an insult, if it is true. Sounds like you now agree.

More of us need to consider animal welfare - both for the good of the animals, and the image of the industry. Wouldn't be surprised for consumers to someday force us to hire vets to do all this with anesthesia.

Banding certainly easier on younger animals with smaller cords.

As for needing tetanus shots, life is about cost-benefit decisions. If the risk of an accident is much greater than the risk of a calf getting tetanus, I'll go with car insurance.

So it would be nice to know the incidence rate of calves getting tetanus from banding. I've read several of these discussions over the years and nobody has reported it happening. If it is a 1 in a million thing, there could be more danger from giving a shot than from not - injection site infections or allergic reactions.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

DJ in WA said:


> So it would be nice to know the incidence rate of calves getting tetanus from banding. I've read several of these discussions over the years and nobody has reported it happening. If it is a 1 in a million thing, there could be more danger from giving a shot than from not - injection site infections or allergic reactions.


I saw my vet yesterday and asked him. He's been practicing 35 years...his senior partner has been practicing 45 years and another younger vet is going on 20 years. None of them have ever seen a case of tetanus in castrated young calves. They have seen cases of tetanus in cattle from injury or botched castrations in older animals or with animals in sloppy conditions.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Gravytrain said:


> I saw my vet yesterday and asked him. He's been practicing 35 years...his senior partner has been practicing 45 years and another younger vet is going on 20 years. None of them have ever seen a case of tetanus in castrated young calves. They have seen cases of tetanus in cattle from injury or botched castrations in older animals or with animals in sloppy conditions.


I agree, my Vet agrees. In fact, my earlier comments came directly from my Vet. So, I'll stand by them.


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

DJ in WA said:


> I agree with Haypoint, banding should be done early. Don't see how that is an insult, if it is true. Sounds like you now agree.
> 
> More of us need to consider animal welfare - both for the good of the animals, and the image of the industry. Wouldn't be surprised for consumers to someday force us to hire vets to do all this with anesthesia.
> 
> ...


Yes, I'll be banding when they hit the ground - I don't disagree. It's just that haypoint has a really poor way of stating his case. When he says things like "failure to take appropriate action" that implies that I've failed somehow even though I made a conscious choice decision to do what I did. He also says things like "expect infections", instead of "there could be infections". It all just sounds very much like a dad scolding a son. Maybe he doesn't mean anything and he's just a poor communicator.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

pfettig77 said:


> Yes, I'll be banding when they hit the ground - I don't disagree. It's just that haypoint has a really poor way of stating his case. When he says things like "failure to take appropriate action" that implies that I've failed somehow even though I made a conscious choice decision to do what I did. He also says things like "expect infections", instead of "there could be infections". It all just sounds very much like a dad scolding a son. Maybe he doesn't mean anything and he's just a poor communicator.


Actually, I excel at communication. I've made my living on jobs that require great oral communication.

I admit in written communication, I attempt to get the facts out yet be brief. Also, I don't discuss things on Homesteadingtoday for your benefit, but for those looking for information. While it may seem I'm brow beating you, I am actually trying to discourage others from engaging in what I see as troubling practices.

Since I have no burning interest in communicating with you directly, I pay little attention to the names of those posting. Apparently you do. I had not connected this discussion on "better late than never" castration with your earlier post on butchering pregnant heifers because you lacked a place to house your bull. I think I hurt your feelings then, too.

Growing up, my connection to agriculture was indirect. As a young adult, in the late 1970s, I learned by doing. There was no farming uncle. There was no internet, Google or Homesteadingtoday. I couldn't youtube shoeing a horse. I've made a ton of mistakes. Some costly, some painful. But I worked hard on the farm as well as off. I possess a wealth of valuable experience and am willing to share it with you for free. While the gift of ready access to experienced opinions is priceless to a novice as yourself, I don't ask a dime. But if you run into troubles based on half baked farming practices, I won't be handing out participation ribbons.

If I anger you and out of that emotion you improve your animal care practices, then I guess our friendship is less important to me that you being more successful with the animals in your care.

I've raised every common farm animal and a few uncommon ones. I've broke horses, milked cows, operated commercial produce gardens. I've served on township boards, national committees, done AI on cattle and horses. I've been a lumberjack, residential contractor, prison guard, farrier, welder, press operator and sawmill operator. I have built several barns and restored numerous cars, tractors, farm equipment and automotive engines.

Over the past ten years I have been in almost daily contact with a number of Veterinarians. I am in weekly contact with several large dairies and feedlots and livestock auctions. 

If there is a trend in poultry, hogs, cattle, dairy or horses, I'm likely to be on the front edge of it. I am a cornucopia of agriculture information. 

In a face to face discussion as strangers, I might say, " You know you really aught not wait so long." But if I am in a forum where people are seeking the right way to do something, my communication does take on a more " If you can't or won't do it when it needs done, maybe you shouldn't have gotten the bulls in the first place", slant.

I won't say, "there could be infections." because I want you to be prepared for and look out for infections. Veterinarians often get calls from inexperienced, yet well intentioned, folks with a case that should have been noticed and treated a week earlier. But they were not on the look out for trouble.

I had thought the myth about late castrations was one for the history books and had no idea you had intentionally delayed this surgery. Glad you have forsaken the practice.

I mean you no ill will. Take my advice or not. I don't care.


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