# aggression after vet visit!



## cjean (May 1, 2007)

Our 5 month old dog scared us bad today. I'm very worried that he's going to have to be put down. 

We had him neutered and a rabies shot a week ago. For the last couple of days, he's been acting very grumbly towards us, growling and barking in our faces. NILIF has lost all influence. Other than that, he's acting fine.
Today DD's little friend came to visit, and I thought he was going to kill her. He was viciously barking and yiping at her, and if he hadn't been on a run, I hate to think what might have happened. He looked like Cujo.

He would not listen to any of us, and DH had to literally sit on him and hold his muzzle shut.

What happened? He has never been like this. Ever since his vet visit, he's been getting out of control. Before that, he was so sweet and everyone loved him.


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## mtc (Dec 23, 2005)

It's possible that he's been sore and irritable from having surgery. (he could have also had a reaction to the anesthetic but that should have passed by now). It's also possible that he's not feeling well from a secondary infection. I'd make an appointment and have him checked over.


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## RandB (Aug 13, 2002)

What is NILIF ? Sorry, I'm not familiar with those initials.

Also, what breed or mix of breeds is this puppy? It might help everyone to figure out what is happening....


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## cjean (May 1, 2007)

mtc, that's what I am thinking, but this reaction towards our neighbor was insane. It was almost like he HAD rabies. 

He's an anatolian, with a bit of maremma. The vet gave him minimal anesthesia, as ASDs are sensitive to it. Anatolians are also pretty dominant, which worries me a bit. NILIF stands for Nothing in Life is Free, a training technique for dominant dogs.


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## RandB (Aug 13, 2002)

Thanks for clarifying... so he is a big dog! 
Sometimes, they can be in some pain for a few days after the neuter, so you might want to give him a little benefit of doubt, but at the same time be very careful he can't hurt anyone! It might be that he had a very bad experience at the vet, which put him "off" for awhile. That can happen with some smart, sensitive dogs. I don't mean that the hospital staff did anything wrong, but some dogs just totally freak out about being left there, and then having work done on them. Just speaking as a long-time dog owner, I wouldn't be totally discouraged yet since it seems to be connected with the vet visit, but still it is definitely a concern. If it was me, I would try to keep him in a quiet atmosphere for a few days with nothing to over-stimulate him, and just handle him quietly and see if his former good nature returns, and at the same time keep him away from children, just in case. Perhaps some folks here are experts on the breed and can give you more detailed advice. I hope he gets back to normal soon!


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## Skykomish (May 28, 2008)

I hope this isn't it, but behavioral changes are one of the bad reactions attributed to vaccines.


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## cjean (May 1, 2007)

> I hope this isn't it, but behavioral changes are one of the bad reactions attributed to vaccines.


I've been reading about this, but are the changes permanent or do they fade? Have you ever had a dog that experienced this?

Yes, he'll be a big dog someday, but right now he's only 50 lbs. Thank God. 

The vet staff loved him, and the girl at the desk said he was so laid-back and easy going. He just laid there wagging his tail and yawning when they checked on him. The doc called him 'sweet and adorable'. 

They'd be saying something different today, I think.


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## Narshalla (Sep 11, 2008)

RandB said:


> What is NILIF ? Sorry, I'm not familiar with those initials.
> 
> Also, what breed or mix of breeds is this puppy? It might help everyone to figure out what is happening....


Nothing In Life Is Free!


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## Skykomish (May 28, 2008)

I don't have any personal experience with it, sorry. What I have read says that the behavior changes are permanent. I truly hope that isn't the case.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

I would keep this dog very quiet and in a quiet atmosphere away from children for a week. He might have been completely freaked out by being away in an unknown place plus the pain. In fact, he might still be in pain. 

After being neutered I imagine having a human man sit on him must have hurt like Hell.


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## cjean (May 1, 2007)

> After being neutered I imagine having a human man sit on him must have hurt like Hell.


 It's been a whole week, and dh wasn't putting his weight on him - just straddling him in a 'down' position. Believe me, if you had seen the way he was out of control, you would have had chills. It was literally like the movie Cujo, just without the slobber. Straddling him (sitting on him) was the humane thing to do at the time, in order to get his attention off of the little girl.


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## mtc (Dec 23, 2005)

cjean said:


> mtc, that's what I am thinking, but this reaction towards our neighbor was insane. It was almost like he HAD rabies.
> 
> He's an anatolian, with a bit of maremma. The vet gave him minimal anesthesia, as ASDs are sensitive to it. Anatolians are also pretty dominant, which worries me a bit. NILIF stands for Nothing in Life is Free, a training technique for dominant dogs.


That would worry me too. Alot. It could be he's associating the neighbor with something that happpened at the vets. I'd call the vet at the minimum to let them know what's up. I'd hate that someone got hurt (including the dog) over something that's treatable.


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## longshadowfarms (Nov 27, 2002)

cjean said:


> He's an anatolian, with a bit of maremma. Anatolians are also pretty dominant, which worries me a bit.


So are some maremmas.


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

I would be taking him back to the vet for a recheck...something is not right. Check his temp- see if it is normal. Still when feeling bad, a dog will withdraw not get aggressive. I have never heard of a rabies vaccine actually causing the disease. As far as not listening- that is par for the course with an adolescent pup...but this agression out of the blue to a human would deeply concern me...especially in a pup that was previously such a laid-back easy going pup just before all this. Typically males are tender after surgery but in about a week are fine. Is he on any pain meds? Thyroid meds? Any other medications or supplements?


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## Willow101 (Feb 20, 2008)

It is interesting that the vet staff loved him because he was so friendly. Sounds unlikely but I really do think there might be something to the poster that said it could be a reaction to the vaccination.

Another thing. When he is aggressive is his body language fearful...ears back, tail down or tucked between legs, full hackles display? Figuring out whether he is bold or fearful might also be a key to the source of the problem. i would think he would be fearful if the problem is pain related. If it is a behavior change based on the vaccination then it my not be fear based.

Very puzzling and sad as he sounds like a great mix.

Willow101


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## cjean (May 1, 2007)

He has had fear aggression since we got him, but we've worked on that quite a bit. We've been able to socialize him with visitors, with total success, using Otter's advice previously. 

He's not on any meds right now, but was on pain pills for 2 days after the surgery. Aside from the grumbling, and then the outright aggression towards the neighbor girl, he's been acting wonderful. Healthy appetite, plenty of water, LOVES playing in the new snow.

I am really hoping that this will wear off, and that his system was just thrown off balance. We'll keep an eye on him, and see what happens.


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## Rouen (Aug 19, 2004)

if he already had a fear issue, it's possible he doesn't trust you will protect him since he was left and harmed, therefore he must protect himself.


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## Ruby (May 10, 2002)

Since you said it was the neighbor girl could she have teased him wgen you were not home or around to see it? Our neighbor teenage boy use to throw rocks at ours from the road. We couldn't figure out how those rocks were getting into the pen until I happened to see him do it one day.


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## Skykomish (May 28, 2008)

If it was only a reaction to one person it wouldn't be the vaccination. Something about *her* caused this. Whether she did anything, or if someone at the vet that looked like her (?) may have done something, he is associating it with her. Can you give us a more in depth run down of what happened before he went insane on her? (from the time he saw her)


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## MARYDVM (Jun 7, 2004)

If being "on a run" means he was tied out, that could contribute to the problem. A tie out is a bad way to contain a fear aggressive dog. It tends to heighten aggression as they get very defensive of their space.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

MARYDVM said:


> If being "on a run" means he was tied out, that could contribute to the problem. A tie out is a bad way to contain a fear aggressive dog. It tends to heighten aggression as they get very defensive of their space.


Good thought!

I was thinking of this thread last night and I think that there is more going on. Something set this dog "off" or maybe it's a combination of events. 

Fear aggression + neutering + a vaccination + separation from the owners + ? 

Perhaps simply having peace and quiet and assurance that he is not going to be hurt/abandoned will take care of ths behavior.


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

Five months is also about the right time for "teenage dog" problems to start happening. I'd rule out physical problems then assume it's behavioral. But hey! At least he won't have hormones in the mix.

If you think of him as a short, furry teenager, complete with attitude, willful deafness, and a lot less knowledge about the world than he thinks he has, you won't go wrong. The good thing is, if you keep after him and insist on good behavior, he'll _probably_ grow up someday.

And what MaryDVM said ... tie outs are a bad idea. There's an awful lot of dogs who will go all cujo on a chain that are teddybears when they're lose. My neighbors have a pit bull who sounds like he'd eat you alive when he's chained up. If he's loose, you're only in danger of being slobbered to death. (Well, I suspect if you messed with "his" kids he'd eat you alive. Otherwise, he just wants his belly rubbed.)


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## RandB (Aug 13, 2002)

In reading more here, I think folks are on the right track about the tie-out situation. We have a male Belgian Malinois, who acts aggresive when in his dog pen. We have one of those 6 ft. tall chain link enclosures, attached to our house with a dog-door. When he is in the pen and somebody walks by our house, CUJO !!! Barking his head off, flinging himself against the fence wildly, looking for all all the world like a Killer. But if we take him outside the pen on a leash, he will go up to the same person he was going crazy over, and wiggle, lick and ask for petting. For some reason, he is super-territorial while in that pen. We don't fully understand why, but we know it as a fact and deal with it. At least we know he can't actually cause any harm in there. It sounds like being on the tie-run is causing the same thing in your dog.


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## cjean (May 1, 2007)

Okay, I'm beginning to see the light here, about the run thing. He's only been on it to keep him on the porch, out of the wet snow and cold, while he heals. 

Also, the combination of the rabies vac, at the same time as surgery, was a bad idea. An anatolian breeder pointed out that they metabolize the meds way slower than most other breeds, and it can affect them badly. 

Our neighbor girl lives on the next 5 acres over, so she would never be able to tease him, even if she was that type of kid. She is actually quite terrified of dogs, as she was chased by a pit/rott when little. Maybe her own fear had something to do with our pup's reaction? Plus, she was all dressed up in her snow gear, which probably looked extra scary!



> If you think of him as a short, furry teenager, complete with attitude, willful deafness, and a lot less knowledge about the world than he thinks he has, you won't go wrong. The good thing is, if you keep after him and insist on good behavior, he'll probably grow up someday.


We are also very much keeping this in mind!

Thank you all for your ideas. We'll keep him quiet and mellow for the next week, and see how it goes.


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

i had a cat that reacted the same way after a spay. nasty, hissing, clawing..wouldnt allow anyone near it. it went away in about a month. normally very sweet cat..just so laid back


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

I've either noticed dramatic changes after spay/neuter, or none at all. 

One cat I rescued from a rather poor home. She turned out to be carrying twins (lol) which we kept - but during her emergency c-section *sigh* we had her spayed. Previous, she was a loving, almost annoyingly friendly cat. Now, she hates people and has bitten me twice. Seems like all my female cats change after spays - females become fat and lazy. My male cats... were and always will be fat and lazy regardless of their castration status, lol. They're all lovebugs either way. My female cats really change drastically.

It's never changed my dogs, though. They're usually sore for a couple days though.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Well,I'm hoping we don't have any problems as I just got home with 2 male dogs and 1 male cat that were neutered today.....Of all the dogs I've had "fixed" only my Beagle had any problems-she ripped out her stitches,I had to hold some organ in while driving her to vets,yuck..


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

You shouldnt have a dog, or any animal vaccinated within three months of a surgery for anything in my well founded opinion.
Though some behavioral changes from hormone changes and mental maturity can be a factor, many breeds have sensitivity to vaccines, they call it Vaccinosis, just google to find out about it, some holistic vets will say that combining the stress of a surgery on the immune system, pluse vaccines the same day can cause a system overload causing a range of symtoms.
Theres my two cents spend it at will


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## cjean (May 1, 2007)

Cannon_Farms said:


> You shouldnt have a dog, or any animal vaccinated within three months of a surgery for anything in my well founded opinion.
> Though some behavioral changes from hormone changes and mental maturity can be a factor, many breeds have sensitivity to vaccines, they call it Vaccinosis, just google to find out about it, some holistic vets will say that combining the stress of a surgery on the immune system, pluse vaccines the same day can cause a system overload causing a range of symtoms.
> Theres my two cents spend it at will


I absolutely agree with you, albeit a bit late. We very rarely vaccinate any of our animals, as we are quite isolated. This time, we planned on licensing our dog, and are required to have the rabies vac, of course. After doing alot of research on the reaction he has had, I suspect that some of his problem is rabies vaccinosis. He displays some of the symptoms. I wish I had known all this info before hand - we wouldn't have bothered with the vaccine. 

At least that way I would know one way or the other!


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Can't believe I kept missing this thread! Have you had him back to the vet? Cjean, are _you_ doing allright? This must be hard on you. 
Keep working with him and give him (and you) some time. It sounds to me also lie a vaccine reaction. Does your vet know anything about that? I'd ask right away.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I recall one of my chows turning very sour after his neuter (a sour chow? no really!). The vet said it was some wierd testosterone thing and gave him female hormone (I guess estrogen?) shots as he was balancing out. It really did help. Just a thought as your situation resembled mine.


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## ihedrick (May 15, 2005)

I know of a dog that had a bad reaction to the rabies shot and is now Cujo in a chiuhua body. She has papers from the vet saying any more rabies shots would be detrimental to her health. Not sure of the rest of her medical history, other than she isn't spayed and sometimes has make believe puppies.


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## cjean (May 1, 2007)

We had good progress today!

DD was playing with Pete in the snow, then took him into our shop where DH was talking to the neighbor. Now, Pete has never met this neighbor, but would have every right to be terrified of him - he owns the intact male lab that has come into our yard a few times and threatened our new pup. (We had to ask the neighbor to do a better job keeping his dogs home...whole 'nother story)

Anyway, Pete is terrified of that lab, so when he went into the shop and smelled the dog on the neighbor, he tucked his tail and dove behind DD for protection. She gently talked to him, and while the neighbor ignored Pete (good thing he understands dogs), she let him off the leash and let Pete approach the man on his own terms. He was very shy and trembly, but eventually worked up the nerve to get close and sniff. Neighbor was very patient and easy-going with him, so they worked it out just fine.

The reason I am so excited is because even though Pete was terrified, he did not show any aggression at all! Yesterday he met a different neighbor man, and was pulling on the leash to get to him and say hi. No fear, no shyness. (that guy doesn't own any big scary dogs)

So, we have hope. Just thought I'd give all you caring people an update.


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## Rondah (Apr 1, 2008)

Ardie/WI said:


> I would keep this dog very quiet and in a quiet atmosphere away from children for a week. He might have been completely freaked out by being away in an unknown place plus the pain. In fact, he might still be in pain.
> 
> After being neutered I imagine having a human man sit on him must have hurt like Hell.


I agree with this 100%. Sometimes dogs can be aggressive because they are in pain. He needs to have some time to just get better without worrying about kids possibly hurting him. 

I've heard bad stuff about vacs too. We only do nosodes on our dogs now, for this very reason. I hope he is just hurting, and it passes.

Edited to add, I just read your update, that is GREAT news!


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

I am SOOO happy to hear he is doing better!!! =)


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## MARYDVM (Jun 7, 2004)

Just a cautionary note - an extremely fearful dog may show submission rather than aggression towards a large "threat" like your neighbor, yet still be a danger to a smaller "threat" like the child he met previously. He might have just enough self confidence to try to drive off a small child with active aggression, even though he retreats from an adult. 
Be very careful with him around visiting children.


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## cjean (May 1, 2007)

MARYDVM said:


> Just a cautionary note - an extremely fearful dog may show submission rather than aggression towards a large "threat" like your neighbor, yet still be a danger to a smaller "threat" like the child he met previously. He might have just enough self confidence to try to drive off a small child with active aggression, even though he retreats from an adult.
> Be very careful with him around visiting children.


Okay, point well taken. Thank you. 

We have discovered, though, that as many people suggested, Pete is not as fearful (and aggressive) when he is not on the cable run. He did meet a 6-yr old girl, while on leash, before all this happened, and he loved her.


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