# Distemper or Not? LONG-HELP



## pygmybabies (Apr 24, 2010)

Ok this is lengthy but I need some advice on what you guys think. I have done so much research that I am so confused.
I have a male GP and last October purchased a female, to gaurd our farm. We hadnt had the female fixed yet and seperated them when she went into heat at nine months. We are not breeders, we just hadnt gotten her fixed yet as we were planning a wedding and move all at the same time. Anyways she delivered 8 puppies in August. 2 didnt make it. Puppies were growing all healthy, etc. Started them on soft food 2 days before 6 weeks, then we were getting ready to give vaccinations and deworming on Wed right at 6 weeks. I had been out to their pen quite a few times that day and all puppies were fine. Then that evening one of them was shaking, so we werent sure what was going on and we brought her up to the house and gave her honey, thinking hypoglycemia. Called the vet that helped with our goats once, as our vet wasnt open and the farm vet was too far away. She said that sounded right and dont be afraid to give too much honey? So after a little while she had a full blown seizure, my husband being a EMT said something is not right. after she called down we took her to the emergency vet clinic, that is a sad place we saw several people rush in with sick and hurt pets.  Anyways they said that since we lived on a farm that it looked like ivermectin toxicity, that when we dosed the goats they might have pooped it got under the pen and the puppy ate it, or they was a dosage unit in the hay and the puppy found it and chewed it up and got it. Well that seems crazy because we had dosed one of the goats but it had been over a month and a half or more. SO there shouldnt have been any toxity left in the poop. They said that her blood suger was in the 400 well we gave her lots of honey...Anyways they wanted to give her activated charcoal and flush her with fluids, keep her over night and see how she does, by this time she is just mellow. At over $600 we said flush her give her charcoal we will take her home. So we did. We kept her in the house and babied her although she really wasnt responding and just whining. I took her out to mom but she wouldn't nurse, gave her goats milk through a syringe and she drank it and licked up softened dog food, so we knew she was hungry. Called my regular dog vet took her up there and he said he really didn't think it was ivermectin but didn't know what it could be. He checked her for worms and found she had roundworms. Then I asked if I could give her an iv of fluids and buy the bags and keep her flushed out, he said yes. so he puts an IV in her and she starts responding by crying out like in pain, and that concerned him. He said I will do whatever you want, but maybe lets wait 24 hours and see how she does and call me in the morning. Gave her de-wormer and I took her home. From that point on any food or milk or water I tried to give her with the syringe she wouldnt swallow. I still worked with her for the whole day. she just layed there like in a daze. The next morning Friday, we gave her goats milk around 6 and I gave her a syringe of soft food from the vet. Went out to feed the animals and heard a puppy barking/crying and thought ok ok I am coming, I am going to feed you. Well when I got closer to the pen I realized this puppy was having a seizure as well, and Now I am very upset and concerned!! After the seizure was over the puppy was making the same noise as the other puppy had the day before. So I load up the sick puppy in the house, the one that just had a seizure and then the other four in seperate kennels and head off to the vet. They said puppy #1 probably wasn't swallowing because her brain wasn't telling her to, due to central nervous system. Puppy number 2, really didn't know. So I had to make hard decisions...They took blood from puppy #1 to send off and test for distemper, then we vaccinated all four healthy puppies and then had the two others put down. This was the hardest thing for me. They still thinking now it might be distemper. So here is the thing, mom was vaccinated, breeder did the first one and we did the rest, and vet did rabies. Either the vaccine wasnt any good or the mother didnt build up immunity. So we let the vet vacinate all 4 puppies, then I brought up my 3 month old blue healer my 10 month old shorkie and my 8 year old mix pound puppy and had them all boostered. Then the next day my husband and i took our two GP and had them boostered. Afraid this might be distemper. Now for the crazy part of this. THERE WERE AND ARE NO SIGNS OF DISTEMPER, LIKE GOOPY EYES RUNNY NOSE COUGHING ETC! So this makes no sense. I get a call on Monday that the titers are high for a viral infection in puppy #1. So they assume it was distemper. I will go back tomorrow and booster everyone again. Now after doing some more research I am more confused than ever, cant the high titer also be from them having the immunity? Was my vaccine bad? Why were there no other symptoms? Straight to seizures? So now I wonder is it possible for the roundworms to cause viral infections? Research says yes. Puppy #1 had about a 1/4 to a 1/2 cup size of worms pooped out the following morning and even though all other puppies were treat that same day as well none of them had worms like that. I have ordered Vitamin C as after my research that is what I should give them build immunity. So any advice here? Vet says basically they wont make it and I need to keep them for 90 days but if they make it after that then I can sell or give them away. What do you think?


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

This is very hard to read. Paragraphs are your friend. 

I'm so sorry you lost puppies. That is always so hard. I'm not that familiar with distemper so can't offer any advise.


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## lmnde (Sep 25, 2006)

*Two questions:*

Did you deworm the puppies at 2 + 4 weeks prior to the most recent 6 [?] week deworming?

Did you give a 5 way puppy shot or a 6 or 7 way? 

A heavy worm load can cause puppies to become anemic, weak and eventually simply stop eating or nursing, having seizure like reactions and finally pass away [they also moan/groan/feep in a terrible way while they do this]. After deworming pups with a heavy worm load, they can also have a severe parasite die-off that can cause similar side effects as described and also cause death of the pup due to the toxicity of the die-off.

Some dog breeds are allergic to the extra vaccines in 6 + 7 way shots [lepto and corona], and I would never give one of these to 6 week old pups. Stick to 5 way puppy shots in the future, and if lepto or corona virus are a concern in your area, give them according to the manufacturers suggestions [usually around 4 months].

There is a lot going on there, and your vet doesn't seem to have any idea either, so it is hard to arm chair diagnose. I would not revaccinate for at least 3 weeks, it will not do to overload their system in addition to what is already going on. But I would put them [if they survive] on a 2 week deworming routine. If they pooped a lot of worms after the initial deworm, I might consider going the Panacur route with this - 3-4 days in a row, with a size/weight appropriate dosage and repeat after 2 weeks. 

I'd also bring them in if necessary [subject to your weather and temps], make sure they are flea and tick free [no need for more anemia and bloodloss in addition to internal parasites], and upgrade their puppy food to a more nutritious and grain free version if possible. If they don't want to eat much or don't have an appetite, try raw hamburger with an egg added and handfeed them if necessary. This usually works quite well as a strength builder.

Good luck with them babies...


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## pygmybabies (Apr 24, 2010)

sorry, I know I was on the tablet and it is hard to type on. My daughter told me the other day I needed to use punctuation. 

We gave the momma 5-way and the breeder had given 7-way. We hadn't given puppy shots to the 6 puppies yet.

Only the one pooped out a lot of worms.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Does Mom have a rabies vaccine?
The puppies are 2mo old, so hopefully it would still be protecting them, but if Mom is unvaccinated, then I would be really worried about that particular virus.
Distemper usually shows up as mucous in the eyes/nose before it gets to the seizure stage. If the glucose was 400+ there is a possibility they have some sort of genetic DM, but I personally would be really concerned about rabies.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

I really hope you get it figured out so you don't lose any more. The most heartbreaking thing I have ever had to endure was loosing half a litter of puppies to parvo.


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## lmnde (Sep 25, 2006)

You still didn't say if you dewormed them on a 2 week schedule previous to the recent fecal? If the vet dewormed them, or gave you a wormer for them, you ought to be ok for now but be sure to reworm 2 weeks from the initial deworming. And I would go with the Panacur 3 days in a row schedule.

If they haven't had shots [this is kind of confusing as you also said the vet gave the pups a shot???], and the rest of the pups is feeling pretty much ok after the deworming, I would give first shots with a 5 way puppy vaccine [parvo, distemper, adenovirus II and parainfluenca]. Give a second shot 3 weeks later.

If they already had their first shot, wait 3 weeks from that date, before revaccinating.

Make sure they don't have ticks and fleas. Keep them warm, dry and draft free if they are outside or bring them into the house for observation for a few days...

Good luck with the babies.


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## pygmybabies (Apr 24, 2010)

I hadnt dewormed them, before 6 weeks, I thought that was when I was to start (my fault) I should have had my glasses on. The first puppy was tested and had worms, so we treated all the puppies, and mother. It has been 2 weeks today since the worming.
They hadnt had their shots when the two had seizures as they were 6 weeks that day. The vet gave them all their shots two weeks ago today. 

They arent old enough for rabies shots, and the vet is the only one that can do that in my state. Yes the mother had her rabies shots from the vet. 
So I was going to take them all back tomorrow as the vet suggested as it will be 2 weeks since he gave shots and deworming, but do you think I should wait another week?


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

I wouldn't wait if they are dying.

As long as Mom has a rabies vaccine, they that should still be protecting them. I wasn't suggesting you give them the vaccine. I was just wondering if mom had one. Puppies can get rabies if Mom was not vaccinated.


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## pygmybabies (Apr 24, 2010)

they dont act sick with distemper


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Could you have accidentally fed them any recalled dog food or treats? Since it was originally thought to be a toxicity?


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

I'll take the second one from the right.  

Hope the rest are fine.


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## pygmybabies (Apr 24, 2010)

this isnt the picture I meant to post...they look sad here. lol They are a bunch of sweeties and are full of energy. Let them out of pen everyday to get used to the other livestock and they and mamma are loving running and running and loving the cool weather.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

adorable!


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