# LGD for me?



## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

I have an Akbash dog whom I love dearly, and I just realized he is going on 8 years of age. He doesn't look or act it, but it occurs to me that I might need to look for another LGD in a few years.

I think Whaley is unusual for an Akbash dog. He loves people; will accept any stranger I bring in and lean against them for pets. I run a pet grooming business from my home, so he is fine with people and their dogs coming and going, and is so benign with client dogs that I never have to worry about it if he gets into the yard where the boarding clients are. Stray dogs running loose, however, are a different story. And he does bark at strangers when they walk by the fence, so he is a good deterrent. He doesn't bark all night, either--only when something is out there. He respects our perimeter fence and does not roam; the few times he's gotten out, I've found him right outside the fence whining to get back in. He seems perfectly happy to stay right here on the property; if I have to take him somewhere, he is a little nervous but very good about it and walks politely on leash.

He is the perfect dog for us, and I don't know if we could ever find another like him. We haven't had a predator attack since he's been here. I can only hope that my perfect dog will exist somewhere out there when we are ready.

We don't have severe predator problems; most are small varmints like racoons, opossum, skunk. We have a small dairy goat herd and some chickens, 2 German Shepherds, and a bunch of cats. We need a dog that will be good with other dogs and cats, gentle, accepting of strangers coming and going.

So, my ideal dog would be a lot like Whaley. A good guardian but not over-the-top. Barks when necessary, not all night. Gentle and a bit lazy. Wants to stick close to the stock and the property, without roaming tendencies. And--this is important--short haired. Our summers are very hot and a Pyr would really suffer; while I am a pet groomer and could certainly shave the hair, I'd prefer not to--it's what I do all day long! 

From what I have heard and read, a Pyr might be ideal... except for the barking and roaming tendencies, and the hair.

An Anatolian might work for us if it is the right temperament--I know some of them have more active aggression.

Because our predators are mostly small varmints, and we don't have much problem with stray dogs, we don't really need a 150 lb monster, but it seems that LGDs don't come in a smaller size. Whaley is about 130. I wouldn't want to get much bigger than that. 

I realize that a lot has to do with socializing. I don't know how Whaley was socialized, as he was 3 years old when I got him, but he is so easygoing and accepting of most everything--he was born on a goat farm and I don't think he was packed around much, so chances are he comes by this temperament naturally. I could certainly socialize a pup, but since I've never raised an LGD from a pup, I am not sure how much socializing is too much.

I also don't need the dog to pick a fight with my German Shepherds. The GSDs do get obnoxious at times, but Whaley mostly ignores them. He will actually get the zoomies every once in a while and play with them.

So... with all these things in mind, does anyone have a suggestion for a breed or a cross that would meet my needs?


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

One of my Anatolian Shepherds is like your dog. He's friendly and outgoing. He loves to go to the farmer's market and Tractor Supply. During the day, he wags his tail at visitors. At night though, he's a different dog. He is on full alert and is an excellent watch dog and guardian. His brother is totally different. He's more what you would expect from an ASD. He's reserved and does not like to go places. The breeder who selected these pups for me knew early on that Isaac was different. He was always the happy-go-lucky affectionate pup in the litter, even as a young pup.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Wolf Flower said:


> I have an Akbash dog whom I love dearly, and I just realized he is going on 8 years of age. He doesn't look or act it, but it occurs to me that I might need to look for another LGD in a few years.


 Few years no, you need to be looking now.
Socialization is so important. Don't buy from anyone who does not handle the pups, and it goes without saying, deworming and shots.....best of luck to you just do it now, not in three years....


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Goatress said:


> Few years no, you need to be looking now.
> Socialization is so important. Don't buy from anyone who does not handle the pups, and it goes without saying, deworming and shots.....best of luck to you just do it now, not in three years....


I was hoping you would chime in, Goatress. Why do you say NOW, as opposed to later?

It did occur to me that a pup might need the guidance of an older dog to keep him in line. However, Whaley is afraid of puppies. I'm not kidding! He loves baby anything, but baby dogs seem to confuse him and make him uncomfortable. When we brought our GSD pup home, he was very interested, sniffed her all over, and then... looked sort of troubled, and backed away. It was the funniest thing. Every time she tried to engage him in play he would run away from her. Never growled or acted aggressive, but wanted nothing to do with her! He's fine with her now that she's grown up some. 

I don't know what was going through his doggie mind, but it almost seemed like he was afraid of breaking her or something. I get the same way about human babies--I don't like to hold them, they seem too fragile when they can't hold their heads up yet.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

If you get a pup now, Whaley will train the pup for you. Besides, by the time Whaley is ready to retire, the pup will be ready to take over. If you wait until Whaley retires, you will be open to predators until the pup is old enough to be a good guardian.

Maybe a LGD pup will be different to him?


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I'm curious why you're considering a different breed when you're happy with the Akbash you have? I guess you don't know the breeder?


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

No, I don't know the breeder. I got Whaley second-hand; I tried to contact his former owner but have not had any luck. I have had several people tell me that his temperament is unusual for an Akbash dog; most have more active aggression and are not as accepting of strangers and strange dogs. So I am not sure that getting another Akbash would be the right choice.

Just last night we had some excitement as police had, apparently, attempted a routine traffic stop in front of our next-door neighbors, and the driver bailed into the orchards behind our house. We heard the dogs going crazy and looked outside to find several cop cars next door and a couple cars cruising through the orchard with their searchlights on. They went back and forth behind our house several times; I don't know if they caught the guy or not, but I was very happy to have Whaley running the fenceline barking fiercely. He did his job perfectly just as you'd expect a guardian dog to, and when we called him and told him it was okay, he calmed right down. Last night I was sure glad I had three big dogs and a 6 foot fence. Made me think--I'd never want to be without an LGD!


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

Yep you should be looking now. Dog 8 years is on the downhill run (hopefully a long gentle slope, but downward none the less) 
Put a youngster with him now, when he gets done showing them the pack order, the next thing will be teaching them the ropes.
_(I love watching my Alpha male, teach pups to guard, teach other dogs to respect the space around a pregnant ***** etc. Makes you wonder why people ever made it seem so complicated, guess they cant sell books & tapes, classes & private lessons, if folks know it aint that hard! )_


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

When I look at Whaley I can't believe he's almost 8 years old. He's as spry and agile as he's ever been: still jumping fences and running like a racehorse when he wants to. I don't know if I could handle another big dog right now; I know four doesn't seem like a lot to most of you folks, but we've only got one acre and our budget is pretty tight. That's why I'm not really ready for another one right NOW.

I have to say, I'm pretty impressed that a giant breed can be so healthy and spry at this age.

Also, I'm not sure whether I should be looking for male or female. I know opposite-sex pairs are best, but I think Whaley would accept a male as well as a female. My two GSDs are females, and I don't know if I'd want THREE females. Then again my older girl is 11 years old... but like Whaley, she is still as active and spry as a dog half her age. Starting to get a little arthritis in her back, but it doesn't slow her down much. She'd race after her ball until she dropped dead.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

If your sheps are female I'm going to guess a male would be best. One of my favorite breeds shepherds but very much assembled on the typical canine assembly frame. Females aren't overly fond of new females, unless they're absolutely fond of them. Difficult to manoeuvre in tight quarters at times. Still your dog skills are undoubtedly better than average too with your experience. YOU are the deciding factor, you can make it so regardless.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

Well since you only have an acre and do not want to take on a large 4th dog I would wait. Wait until you start to see signs of him slowing down. Then I would get a puppy, because even if he is slower and older he can still help train the puppy if he does not run from it  

On one acre I would not get a Pyr, they are barky and like to wander and on an acre that bark you could not escape from. I swear my one boy loves the sound of his voice, not sure when he actually breathes! 

Mine are Anatolians mixed with Pyrs, I do like the combo and I do like Anatolians just get one from a good breeder. My neighbor had a purebred one, he got him at 2 yrs old. They ruined him in about a month lol, he chased cars for 4 yrs, then they claim he started randomly attacking dogs. He loved my Golden and would come here to play often, he walked with our other neighbor and his dog as well, no issues. Except for the fact that he wandered all over to our places and chased us in and out of the driveway. Anyway their vet claimed Anatolians have lots of dog aggression and can turn on other dogs suddenly. I am not sure I am buying that but it kept them from getting another. The dog at 6 yrs old ended up having cancer and being PTS. I would love to be chased in and out of the driveway then deal with the current dog they have, who is not a guardian dog but a nasty biter. 
So health and temperment of the parents is what I would be checking before getting any puppy but especially a large working dog.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

Have you thought about an Aussie Shepherd? (Getting a female pup to raise with Whaley can still wait a bit, IMO.) The shepherds are wonderful for "learning on the job", and they can be fierce protectors of crittters and place. They aren't likely to "take off". Managable size, economical, hardy, & they look a lot bigger than they are for predator intimidation. A single shepherd did all the work on our ranch for generations, just tagging a pup onto the last old girl. And there's a good reason "Shadow" is one of the most popular names, they are loyal to the death. I think it's only when they've been trained to cattle that they think heel-nipping is the right thing to do, and even then they use good judgement.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

I think an Aussie would want to be more of a house/people dog, rather than hang with the livestock 24/7. I already have two big dogs that come in the house, so I'm really looking for an outdoor dog that's relatively independent and happy with that arrangement.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

My vet raises Aussie Shepherds, they are very high energy like my border collie, i wouldn't leave one alone but they would be great as a companion dog if you really want to work or play with them a lot.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Wolf Flower said:


> I think an Aussie would want to be more of a house/people dog, rather than hang with the livestock 24/7. I already have two big dogs that come in the house, so I'm really looking for an outdoor dog that's relatively independent and happy with that arrangement.


That's partly an individual thing, and partly raising.
I think you'd be happy with any number of breeds, and probably happier with something that isn't an "official" LGD breed, which sounds like too much dog for the job at hand, kind of like getting an Alaskan Husky for the purpose of jogging on weekends.

My GSD/Border Collie cross was the perfect dog for a small amount of livestock. He'd watch the sky for hawks, tend babies, and had a deep-seated hatred of raccoons. Smiley, who I picked up in a parking lot and guess to be a Blackmouth Cur, will tolerate any creature I say belongs here and trees anything anything else that breathes (he tried with the horses, but I convinced him they were mine, it was an interesting 3 minutes)
Currently, my biggest problem "predators" are other people's dogs. Another stray who showed up, a HUGE pointer mix we call Roscoe, learned in a day to ignore my free-range birds, cats and goats, and has gotten along with my own dogs pretty well. But no canine who was not here before him is allowed anywhere on my 10 acres, so he may get to stay on as my not-exactly-an LGD.

Maybe you should look into an older rescue that is already what you want, like ****** was, instead of looking for an LGD puppy. ****** may be happier with that as well. If ****** is the exception and not the rule - it is easier to find an exception then create one.

Also, about the Aussies, and other herding breeds. The ones I've known, especially the males, who were raised to be responsible for the farm as much as or more than raised to be focused on their human - have all wanted to sleep outside, where they could keep an eye on things. The GSD/BC cross I mentioned, would everywhere we lived find a spot, high ground where he could see all the boundaries of what was his, and unless I needed him with me, or he was doing his patrol - that's where he was. If I brought him inside at night, but left a window open, that's where he'd be before dawn. I don't even want to count how many times I moved with that dog, but he'd find his post, and watch there.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

Otter said:


> Also, about the Aussies, and other herding breeds. The ones I've known, especially the males, who were raised to be responsible for the farm as much as or more than raised to be focused on their human - have all wanted to sleep outside, where they could keep an eye on things.


Interesting Otter, you find males more protective of place - in the old days males were chosen, it was rare for anyone to have a working female because they had no way to get them "fixed". The larger ranches were the source of breeding stock. Our Aussies never came inside the house. They were raised outside, and were on the job day and night. Unless you had varmits in the house, barn, or chicken coop, it was a dead zone. Of course, outside work was the rule for people too, they are tight bonders to whoever fits their idea of "Most in charge".
So you're right, Wolf Flower, if you rule the roost, they would want you to be with them.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Otter said:


> Maybe you should look into an older rescue that is already what you want, like ****** was, instead of looking for an LGD puppy. ****** may be happier with that as well. If ****** is the exception and not the rule - it is easier to find an exception then create one.


That, of course, would be ideal--an older, proven dog. It wouldn't even have to be an LGD. My only concern would be that a new, adult dog would get along with Whaley. As I said, he's pretty easygoing, but you never know. 

Hehe... "******"... that's a funny name but would be fitting in his case.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

RedDirt Cowgirl said:


> So you're right, Wolf Flower, if you rule the roost, they would want you to be with them.


Yes. I have two German Shepherds, and could easily let my older one patrol the property and protect the stock--she is good with our critters but will chase off anything that doesn't belong. However, like most herding breeds, GSD's are so human-oriented that it wouldn't be a good life for her to be outdoors with the stock 24/7. Besides that, she is getting up in years as well.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Oops, sorry about the name Wolf Flower.
I'd try just putting the word out, like you did here and seeing if something comes up. If you just need a "varmint dog", one who is death on raccoons but not cats or chickens, that's not to hard to find. I'd give you Smiley, but he'll suck eggs layed on the ground so you'd likely not want him.

You might also want to see if you could work your younger GSD into the role. Walk the fenceline with her a few times a day, teach her to alert to Whaley, call her attention to hawks, that sort of thing. You can also buy raccoon scent, used to train hounds, and train her to react to it. She'd still want to spend her time with you, but if you gave her access to the outside, like a dog door, she'd probably go out and check on things several times a night

RedDirt Cowgirl, I admit I just flat out have more experience with male dogs in general. There are just more of them out there. The herding breeds and mixes I've known who were farm raised, by the time he's 3, a dog wants to be outside where he can keep an eye on things, where he can patrol, where he can oversee and keep order. The females I've known settle faster into their roles. They also want to oversee and keep order, but they take a more uptight and personal view of it, rather then patrolling their territory.

For a very generalized example, if a raccoon is getting into the chickens, the dog will up his patrols and alert more. He'll mark and pace and be ultra vigilant and make sure no raccoons come on his territory.
The ***** will park herself by the chickens and guard her chickens. It's an awesome teamwork kind of thing if you have a pair of them.
So if I wanted one to more fulfill an LGD type role, I'd recommend a male, if I wanted something to work more closely with me, I'd prefer a female.

Interesting aside, my current BC cross, a male coming 2 years old, is currently parked on the second of three steps up to the porch, where nothing on the porch can bother him, but he can see the whole front yard, driveway, road to the house and most of the pasture. Any disturbance will launch him off that step towards it, he has the maximum viewpoint and the least interference.
They just all do it. It's getting so I can walk onto a place and think, _"If I lived here, right_ there_ is where my dog would be."_


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## HorseFeatherz (Feb 16, 2008)

In case you are thinking about a rescue - Akbash Rescue

I do not know this lady, or her organization, but I stumbled across her two years or so ago when I first started looking into LGD. 

She rescues Akbash and is in CA. She might come across a dog similar to Whaley.


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## anita_fc (May 24, 2008)

If that is Janet Davis in California, that is who helped us adopt a 5 yr old male last summer after our old guy died at age 16. She is outstanding to work with. The Akbash I've been around in Idaho seem to be very healthy, hardy, long-lived dogs. We adopted our first rescue at age 8 and he lived for 8 more years. He was an effective guard dog until just days before he died.

I agree with the choice of the more independent breeds for a full-time outdoor job. Most GSDs are too "joined at the hip" with their humans to be happy as a FT outdoor dog.


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