# Being Overweight is a Disease



## MoonRiver

Excess weight is a symptom.

Losing weight is not a cure.

Thoughts?


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## Clem

Wrong.


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## painterswife

I agree. Excess weight is an indicator of another problem. Hormonal, metabolic or addiction are a few of the basic problems that cause excess weight.

Our bodied store fat because they know that calorie intake is cyclical not constant. Just as energy use is cyclical not constant. Hormones, metabolic rates and addictions effect this. When you calorie restrict over a long time your body changes your metabolic rate and slows down. Bad cycle.


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## Meinecke

Like with most of these intended or not "black or white" questions, the answer is somewhere in between and we should stop thinking this one or zero thinking...
Being overweight is definitely a health risk...but the reason why someone's overweight can be defferent...
Some people just dont care and eat what/when they want...ignoring their body and taking health as given/birthright...
Some are really overweight because of a defect in their system...
So since loosing weight is always a good idea as long it does not swing into the other extreme being to skinny...
It can be just more challenging for those who are body wise limited to achieve the goal...
So as answer to the question...overweight might not always be a disease, but it ca be...but for all, loosing weight to a healthy limit is only beneficial. 
And one thing is clear...this country def has a weight issue


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## Clem

First you have "Being overweight is a disease" Then you have "Excess weight is a symptom"
Excess weight and overweight aren't the same? It's like saying "the flu is a disease and the flu is a symptom. Of the flu..."
Unless the whole OP is some sort of exercise in semantics that I'm not up on. 

Furthermore, if "being overweight" is the disease, and you lose the excess weight, you are no longer being overweight, so if that was the disease, then you'd be cured.


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## MoonRiver

Clem said:


> First you have "Being overweight is a disease" Then you have "Excess weight is a symptom"
> Excess weight and overweight aren't the same? It's like saying "the flu is a disease and the flu is a symptom. Of the flu..."
> Unless the whole OP is some sort of exercise in semantics that I'm not up on.
> 
> Furthermore, if "being overweight" is the disease, and you lose the excess weight, you are no longer being overweight, so if that was the disease, then you'd be cured.


Then why do the vast majority of people who lose weight gain it all back again? When you are over the flu, it doesn't come back.


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## Bearfootfarm

MoonRiver said:


> Then why do the vast majority of people who lose weight gain it all back again?


They go back to eating too much.



MoonRiver said:


> When you are over the flu, it doesn't come back.


You can have the flu more than once.
When your antibody levels drop or you're exposed to a different strain another infection will occur.

Pretending being fat is a "disease" is making excuses for bad habits if you've shown you can lose the weight.


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## Alice In TX/MO

How will a conversation on this benefit anyone?


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## painterswife

Alice In TX/MO said:


> How will a conversation on this benefit anyone?


If you can understand the underlying cause of your excess weight you can work towards a solution.

Just as being an alcoholic has many different underlying things that cause you to drink more alcohol that your body can process, it is good to know what is causing that with your calorie intake and use.


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## barnbilder

If lack of willpower and determination is a disease, then it is a disease with many symptoms.


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## MoonRiver

barnbilder said:


> If lack of willpower and determination is a disease, then it is a disease with many symptoms.


Willpower has little to nothing to do with being overweight. Do you think early man had to go on a diet?

When the body is working correctly, extra calories are burned while we sleep. Ever have a night where you wake up in the middle of the night and have to remove some of the covers because you are too hot, even though the temperature in the room is actually cooler? That's your body burning off excess calories.

Do animals in the wild get fat without purpose? Look at the extent people go to fatten up cattle. They feed them grain because grain makes them fat. If left to their normal diet, they would never get fat.


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## painterswife

barnbilder said:


> If lack of willpower and determination is a disease, then it is a disease with many symptoms.


That post right there is why this discussion is worth having.


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## MoonRiver

Bearfootfarm said:


> They go back to eating too much.


But if simply losing weight cured them, why would they go back to eating too much? Ask any person who lost weight if they want to get fat again. They all will say no. So why do they go back to eating too much?



> You can have the flu more than once.


You have the flu for a period of time and then you don't. The next year you might get it again, but it has nothing to do with the flu you had the previous year. 


> Pretending being fat is a "disease" is making excuses for bad habits if you've shown you can lose the weight.


Whose pretending here? Any disease is a cellular disease. Some of your cells are not functioning properly. When cells are working properly, one would have try to gain weight, such as sumo wrestlers or NFL linemen do. The average person would simply burn off excess calories.


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## Clem

MoonRiver said:


> ............You have the flu for a period of time and then you don't. The next year you might get it again, but it has nothing to do with the flu you had the previous year.......


And the weight you gain next week has nothing to do with the weight you lost last week. Although, like the flu, weight is weight, it's still from a different food, but yet the same problem...eating more than you burn. And flu is flu, although a different case of flu, it's still from exposure to a flu virus.

Face it, the premise of the OP is erroneous.


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## MoonRiver

Clem said:


> And the weight you gain next week has nothing to do with the weight you lost last week. Although, like the flu, weight is weight, it's still from a different food, but yet the same problem...eating more than you burn. And flu is flu, although a different case of flu, it's still from exposure to a flu virus.
> 
> Face it, the premise of the OP is erroneous.


Nope, the weight you gain next week is likely because you still have the disease that caused you to gain weight. Losing weight while not addressing the underlying cause means a person still has cellular disease. If the diet was changed to include nutritious food, and toxins were released from fat storage, then maybe the underlying disease was cured.


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## Clem

That's identical to saying the flu you catch next year is the same flu you had last year because you were once again exposed to a flu virus.

Play at semantics all day, if you want. Your original premise is flawed, as is your supporting arguments. If you had said something like "Being overweight is a symptom of eating too much, a symptom of metabolic imbalance, a symptom of addiction , or a host of other things, yeah, maybe. But you didn't. Your statement is "Being overweight is a disease" It's not, it is the result of eating too much. 

Just like saying "Sneezing is a disease"(wrong) or "runny nose is a disease"(also wrong)


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## oneraddad

My self esteem has been lifted this morning knowing now that I packed on some extra weight because I'm a victim of a horrible disease instead of a lack of willpower.


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## M5farm

being over weight is lack of motivation for the vast majority and living in the wealthiest country in the world where the government pays people to eat and promotes being lazy.


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## 5_Star

It depends on whether you consider addiction to be a disease. I first went on the Atkins in my mid 20's. I lost 20 lbs. in 2 1/2 weeks. Doc couldn't believe that drop and said it showed my body was addicted to carbs. Of course I ballooned back above my original starting weight over the last 20 yrs. I'm back on the Keto, but it's not coming off as easy this time. 

My wife could be Barnbilder's sister. lol She says all I have to do is stop eating. If it's that easy, you would think rehab programs would be a lot shorter.


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## WolfeMomma

I think society promotes a lazy lifestyle, heck you don't even have to work and you can eat better then those that do work. Its a broken system. I think some people are over weight because they are lazy and don't want to do any physical activity. For others I think maybe it could be a genetic or addiction problem. But for most, i bet its just plain gluttony and laziness.


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## Bearfootfarm

MoonRiver said:


> But if simply losing weight cured them, why would they go back to eating too much?


Lack of self control?
Going on a diet doesn't "cure" anything.
It *treats* the problem.

You seem to want to play word games when it's just a fact people who are fat most often are eating more than they should, and they know it.



MoonRiver said:


> Whose pretending here?


You, if you think being "overweight" is a "disease" that can magically be cured.



MoonRiver said:


> Willpower has little to nothing to do with being overweight.


It has everything to do with it for the majority of people, since it's been proven they can lose the weight if they are willing to simply do what is needed, which it usually eat less and exercise more.



MoonRiver said:


> Nope, the weight you gain next week is likely because you still have the disease that *caused you to gain weight*.


It's not a "disease" as much as it is a mental condition.
What caused you to gain weight was eating too much in the majority of cases.

Forget the idea that it's a "disease" and stick to a diet if you don't want to be overweight.


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## Bearfootfarm

MoonRiver said:


> If left to their normal diet, they would never get fat.


You wouldn't either if you spent all day roaming around outdoors looking for something edible.
What people eat today isn't a "normal diet" for the way human body evolved.


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## painterswife

Bearfootfarm said:


> You wouldn't either if you spent all day roaming around outdoors looking for something edible.
> What people eat today isn't a "normal diet" for the way human body evolved.


A cow who only needs to walk over to it's feed won't get fat eating hay but will get fat eating grain. Why because their natural satiation mechanism works when eating the hay. It is the same with humans. Certain foods mess up that mechanism and encourage overeating.


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## Bearfootfarm

painterswife said:


> A cow who only needs to walk over to it's feed won't get fat eating hay but will get fat eating grain. Why because their natural satiation mechanism works when eating the hay. *It is the same with humans*. Certain foods mess up that mechanism and encourage overeating.


Nope.
People can control their urges if they really try.
Cows cannot.


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## painterswife

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924224414002386

"
*Optimising foods for satiety*
Author links open overlay panelLucyChambersabKeriMcCrickerdaMartin R.Yeomansa
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tifs.2014.10.007Get rights and content
Under a Creative Commons license
open access

*Highlights*


•
Foods high in protein and fibre are satiating.

•
Sensory and cognitive signals generated during consumption are important for satiety.

•
Satiety is moderated a combination of cognitive, sensory and physiological signals.

•
Food products can be manipulated to enhance the consumer's experience of satiety."


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## Terri

Diabetes can cause ravenous hunger. It is why so many diabetics are overweight.

Speaking from experience, the best way to kill the excess hunger is good blood sugar control. Because if the cells of the body are not getting any fuel- which is VERY easy with diabetes- a message can be sent to the body. And the message is "eat or die". Literally.

Now that may or may not be true, but the message has been sent, and even though I would not be considered obese I have never been able to fight that message. When I start shaking with hunger I cannot stop myself from eating, so I try to prevent that from happening.

There is an old wives tale that people eat themselves into diabetes: say rather that they are overeating BECAUSE their blood sugar is not where it should be, and so they get the increased appetite.
.................
The other physical cause (that I know of) to gain weight is an unbalanced diet: if a person is short nutrient-rich foods then they will over eat on nutrient-poor foods, which is one reason why poor folk are often heavy.

Notice that willpower is not mentioned above.

Obesity is *NOT* an illness, though it can be a result of one.


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## Bearfootfarm

painterswife said:


> Food products can be manipulated to enhance the consumer's experience of satiety


The amount you eat can be "manipulated" also.
It's not the food that's the problem.
When one get used to eating less, the hunger goes away.


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## Bellyman

5_Star said:


> My wife could be Barnbilder's sister. lol She says all I have to do is stop eating.


It's not a very popular thing to mention these days, but "not eating" can be an effective part of ones way of eating. 

Fasting isn't very popular these days. But there is something to be said for it. It comes in a lot of flavors and doesn't necessarily mean going for 40 days with nothing but water. It can mean just skipping a single meal. It can mean eating one meal a day. It can mean eating every other day. It can mean eating only a single food or type of food for a short time. There are lots of ways to fast. Truth is, it can be a valuable tool for health, at least for most people. 

One thing about the ketogenic diet, it tends to put people in a place where they are able to fast more easily. The process they go through to get into a state of ketosis allows them to be able to tap into their own body fat for fuel more easily than someone who's accustomed to burning carbohydrates for their energy. 

Fasting is also a very different thing than restricting calories, which a lot of people have a hard time wrapping their minds around. "Eating less" would seem like it would be better than not eating at all. But the problem with that is that the body is very efficient at using whatever energy you give it and will lower it's BMR drastically to keep from having to dip into fat reserves if it can. Fasting doesn't give that same BMR drop. You'd think it would but it doesn't. So just cutting down on the calories can have unintended consequences.

I hadn't spent much time with Dr. Jason Fung until recently but have come to appreciate that fasting can be a useful tool in one's toolbox of health care. And it's free. I would say a person should do some reading on the subject before trying it and even then, get acquainted with it slowly. Sure, maybe a 7 day water fast is in your future, but you don't start with a 7 day water fast. You usually start by eating 2 meals today instead of 3 and go from there.

Just the thoughts that come to mind.


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## painterswife

Mr. Fung is pretty amazing.


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## MoonRiver

Bearfootfarm said:


> The amount you eat can be "manipulated" also.
> It's not the food that's the problem.
> When one get used to eating less, the hunger goes away.


Let's do a test. Eat 3 doughnuts for breakfast, a 12" submarine sandwich for lunch with a diet coke and chips, and a medium pizza for dinner. Do that for a month. Now go for a week eating just 2 doughnuts, a 6" sub, and a small pizza a day. Let us know how it goes.


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## Bearfootfarm

MoonRiver said:


> Let's do a test. Eat 3 doughnuts for breakfast, a 12" submarine sandwich for lunch *with a diet coke* and chips, and a medium pizza for dinner. Do that for a month. Now go for a week eating just 2 doughnuts, a 6" sub, and a small pizza a day. Let us know how it goes.


That's ridiculous and would prove nothing at all.
Stop eating donuts and pizza and see how that goes.

I used to work with someone who would eat *Honey Buns* and drink "diet" drinks, and moan about being too fat to feel good.

This was after his Dr told him if he didn't lose at least 60 pounds he would probably soon have a stroke or heart attack.


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## MoonRiver

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's ridiculous and would prove nothing at all.
> Stop eating donuts and pizza and see how that goes.
> 
> I used to work with someone who would eat Honey Buns and drink "diet" drinks, and moan about being too fat to feel good.


You said it was as easy as eating less, so prove it. I set the parameters for the challenge. Let's see how easy it is to just eat less when your blood chemistry and hormones are messed up. Chances are their kidneys, liver, stomach, gut, etc are not working efficiently and a sudden change in diet may cause some serious problems.

Now think about how damaged someone is who has been obese for years. Changing one's diet can be as traumatic as being treated with a powerful drug with nasty side effects. But for obese people, food is always right there to stop the pain from the change in diet. And it's not like they can just stop eating like one can with smoking or drinking. So there is both a psychological as well as a physical addiction that has to be dealt with. Plus there is all the prior damage to the body that must be healed. 

And all the toxins that have been stored in the fat for all these years, gets dumped into the bloodstream as fat is broken down. If your liver and kidneys are not working well, your body can't gt the toxins out of the system fast enough and the toxins circulate through the body over and over until there is some fat available to store them in.

I can tell you exactly where in my weight loss journey my body became overloaded with toxins. I would get overwhelming cravings for ice cream and potato chips. Why? Because my body wanted something it could turn into fat quickly to get some of the toxins out of the blood. Willpower was no good, because as long as the toxins remained in the blood, my body was going to keep demanding I eat something it could quickly convert to fat.

It's rarely a willpower issue. From time to time, one might get a craving for something and have to say no. The issue is when the cravings are constant and won't go away with time. Finding the right foods that are satiating without causing cravings is a real challenge. I recently found that just a small amount of oatmeal on a daily basis caused tremendous hunger over the rest of the day. Changed from oatmeal to eggs with vegetables and hunger is under control.

For many of us, losing weight and keeping it off is like a puzzle, where we don't get to see what it looks like until we somehow put all the pieces together.


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## Bellyman

MoonRiver said:


> Let's do a test. Eat 3 doughnuts for breakfast, a 12" submarine sandwich for lunch with a diet coke and chips, and a medium pizza for dinner. Do that for a month. Now go for a week eating just 2 doughnuts, a 6" sub, and a small pizza a day. Let us know how it goes.


Good heavens, I couldn't do either for even one day. Do people really eat like that?


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## Clem

I used to be badly overweight, too. BUT, everything I said and thought was not an equivocation about why I was fat. No matter what anybody says, you alone are responsible for what you put in your mouth. and how much of it. Heck, I always knew that. Quit trying to make up excuses and accept your own responsibility and you'll be better off for it.

Nobody ever got a disease that made them turn fat unless they started to eat more than they were burning off.


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## Bearfootfarm

MoonRiver said:


> *You said it was as easy* as eating less, so prove it.


No, I never said "easy".
I said eating less would solve the problem.



MoonRiver said:


> I set the parameters for the challenge.





MoonRiver said:


> Let's see how easy it is to just eat less when your blood chemistry and hormones are messed up.


There's no need for any "challenge".
I'm already a normal weight for my height.

You should try it though, but change the donuts to oatmeal and the pizza to a salad.


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## Irish Pixie

Being at least morbidly obese is considered a condition by the SSA, and they'll pay disability benefits. Some insurance companies will pay out on disability claims for the morbidly obese as well. Just sayin'.


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## Oregon1986

Eh I have mixed feelings. A lot of people are over weight simply because they eat nothing but crap. However some are overweight because of health issues or other factors. I have struggled my entire life with my weight and I am active, eat pretty well and don't drink or smoke. Is it a disease? I don't know but it is a struggle


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## mnn2501

Bellyman said:


> Good heavens, I couldn't do either for even one day. Do people really eat like that?


yeah, People do...heck I have when I was younger.


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## MoonRiver

Clem said:


> I used to be badly overweight, too. BUT, everything I said and thought was not an equivocation about why I was fat. No matter what anybody says, you alone are responsible for what you put in your mouth. and how much of it. Heck, I always knew that. Quit trying to make up excuses and accept your own responsibility and you'll be better off for it.
> 
> Nobody ever got a disease that made them turn fat unless they started to eat more than they were burning off.


My guess is maybe 1 in 100 can easily lose a lot of weight and keep it off. It's probably more like 1 in 1000. And it's not because of willpower. Whether it's genes, current health, or just luck, I don't know. 

When a person can be successful at most of life's challenges, but can't lose weight, how could it be willpower? Does a person have willpower for everything but food?

The natural state of man is to not be overweight. Just look at a 1970's music video and see how skinny everyone was. Does that mean they all had more willpower? Of course not. Watch any rerun of old TV programs and even the people we thought were fat, now appear just a little overweight. So why did over 70% of Americans suddenly become overweight or obese. I know, it's because 70% of Americans suddenly don't have any willpower. 

It's pretty obvious to me that we have been drugged by the food companies with antibiotics, with growth hormones, with pesticides, with huge amounts of sugar and salt, with chemicals our bodies can't digest, with dangerous plastics, etc. So cutting back on food is also cutting back on drugs and the withdrawal is as real as it is with heroin. And you can't quit eating cold turkey.


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## Clem

Hey, stay fat and miserable, if it means that much to ya. No matter how much you equivocate, you alone are responsible for what you put in your mouth, and how much. Those "toxins" you describe are known as hunger, or cravings by most people. And that's exactly what they are. Just say no, you'd get over it in a day or 2.

And yes, you can just stop eating cold turkey. All the people who have been stranded in the desert, or on a boat, some for weeks and months, nothing to eat. And, generally, no long term ill effects, either. Don't tell me you can't stop.


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## Bearfootfarm

MoonRiver said:


> When a person can be successful at most of life's challenges, but can't lose weight, how could it be willpower? Does a person have willpower for everything but food?


That's quite possible.
If they have lost weight before by eating less that would be proof.



MoonRiver said:


> The *natural state* of man is to not be overweight.


The natural state of man is to be hungry most of the time.
The people who live the longest are those who only eat what they need, not what they want.



MoonRiver said:


> It's pretty obvious to me that we have been drugged by the food companies with antibiotics, with growth hormones, with pesticides, with huge amounts of sugar and salt, with chemicals our bodies can't digest, with dangerous plastics, etc. So cutting back on food is also cutting back on drugs and the withdrawal is as real as it is with heroin. And *you can't quit eating cold turkey*.


You *can* quit eating turkey and lots of other things too, but first you have to stop making excuses as to why you can't.


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## oneraddad

Many years ago I had the terrible disease of nicotine and alcohol cravings. I stopped using both, the cravings eventually went away and so did the disease.


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## Oregon1986

oneraddad said:


> Many years ago I had the terrible disease of nicotine and alcohol cravings. I stopped using both, the cravings eventually went away and so did the disease.


Ha ha love it


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## Bellyman

Bearfootfarm said:


> The natural state of man is to be hungry most of the time.


Unfortunately, that's one of the symptoms of malnutrition. That can happen in obese people, too. 

I would suggest that if a person is hungry most of the time, there is something wrong. 

Something I found when I changed my diet from a carbohydrate based way of eating to a fat based eating was that the 4-hour hunger monster vanished. Yes, I still get hungry. But it's not nearly the same intensity as it used to be. Back then, if I had to skip a meal, it was significant, and not pleasant at all. Anymore, it's a non-event if mealtime comes and goes and I've missed a meal... or two, or even three or four. That's one of the little perks that I kinda like about this way of eating. Maybe it doesn't work quite that way for everyone but it does for me.


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## Oregon1986

Honestly I feel anyone can loose weight with enough determination and finding the right "diet" for them. It may come easier for some than others but is still doable. Few years back I lost 83 lbs eating the Paleo lifestyle and walking. This last winter I lost 30 almost 40 lbs doing Atkins. It's all about finding what works best for you. I tried going back Paleo recently and it just didn't work for me like it did years prior. Instead of giving up I just changed things up


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## MoonRiver

oneraddad said:


> Many years ago I had the terrible disease of nicotine and alcohol cravings. I stopped using both, the cravings eventually went away and so did the disease.


I bet a lot of people here did as well. So what?

And the damage caused by smoking is likely still there and possibly damage from drinking as well.


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## MoonRiver

Oregon1986 said:


> Honestly I feel anyone can loose weight with enough determination and finding the right "diet" for them. It may come easier for some than others but is still doable. Few years back I lost 83 lbs eating the Paleo lifestyle and walking. This last winter I lost 30 almost 40 lbs doing Atkins. It's all about finding what works best for you. I tried going back Paleo recently and it just didn't work for me like it did years prior. Instead of giving up I just changed things up


The point is not about losing weight. It is about losing weight and maintaining the weight loss.


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## MoonRiver

Clem said:


> Hey, stay fat and miserable, if it means that much to ya. No matter how much you equivocate, you alone are responsible for what you put in your mouth, and how much. Those "toxins" you describe are known as hunger, or cravings by most people. And that's exactly what they are. Just say no, you'd get over it in a day or 2.
> 
> And yes, you can just stop eating cold turkey. All the people who have been stranded in the desert, or on a boat, some for weeks and months, nothing to eat. And, generally, no long term ill effects, either. Don't tell me you can't stop.


So being stranded in a desert with no food shows they have willpower? I'm confused. You said it just took willpower and now you have them stranded in the desert.


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## Bearfootfarm

Bellyman said:


> I would suggest that if a person is hungry most of the time, there is something wrong.


We haven't lived in a "natural state" in thousands of years.
Civilization is far from "natural"


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## Terri

20 years ago I lost 50 pounds and I have kept off 40 of it.

I maintained my weight loss by not eating many carbs at one sitting, and that also decreased my hunger because TOO MANY CARBS MAKE ME HUNGRY! Mind, unless I eat some carbs that also makes me overly hungry: I had to find a happy medium.

If everybody reacted like me then figuring a diet would be as simple as 1-2-3, but real life does not happen that way. In real life my own carb-intolerant self will react differently to food than somebody who stops eating meat and feels great!

There is no diet that works well for everybody. We all need to find out what works for us and then USE it!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Bearfootfarm

MoonRiver said:


> So being stranded in a desert with no food shows they have willpower? I'm confused.


It just shows they can live through it.



MoonRiver said:


> The point is not about losing weight. It is about losing weight and maintaining the weight loss.


It is about losing weight, and then continuing the behavior that caused you to lose the excess.

It's not about losing 5 pounds and celebrating with a bacon cheeseburger.


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## oneraddad

MoonRiver said:


> I bet a lot of people here did as well. So what?
> 
> And the damage caused by smoking is likely still there and possibly damage from drinking as well.



The point was you need to get your disease under control through a little willpower instead of whining about your cravings and how you ate dozen donuts


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## MoonRiver

oneraddad said:


> The point was you need to get your disease under control through a little willpower instead of whining about your cravings and how you ate dozen donuts


if you don't have a problem with weight, why even post here? I can't see where you are adding any value to the discussion.


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## MoonRiver

Bearfootfarm said:


> It just shows they can live through it.
> 
> 
> It is about losing weight, and then continuing the behavior that caused you to lose the excess.
> 
> It's not about losing 5 pounds and celebrating with a bacon cheeseburger.


I'll repeat myself. If you don't have a weight problem, why grace us with all your expertise?


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## Terri

oneraddad said:


> The point was you need to get your disease under control through a little willpower instead of whining about your cravings and how you ate dozen donuts


Better yet, choose foods that gets rid of your cravings.

OneRadDad, BearFootFarms, if you have no cravings it just means you are not a diabetic, not suffering from any deficiencies, and do not need any diet advice. Not everybody can say that.

I am as I was born to be. The point now is, what am I going to do about it?

The answer is, I am going to stick holes in my finger and test my blood to prevent the blood sugar swings that sets off cravings. Different people with different problems will find different answers.

Tell me, are you searching for a diet that will work for you?


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## no really

I'm not over weight but if it's all right I would like to add one bit of advice a immigration specialist (lawyer) tells his clients. Most of whom are from poorer countries. He tells them not to eat like Americans or if they want to try things do it in moderation due to the large amounts of chemicals and additives in the prepared foods. 

I've seen it in some of my own family members that have come to the US from Mexico. They tend to eat the new foods and put on weight. When they get back to eating less of the processed foods they can loose the weight but there is nothing easy about it.


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## oneraddad

(Content deleted*)




* Deleted content exceeds civility limits. Edited by Terri 3-22-18 4:42 PM


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## Clem

MoonRiver said:


> So being stranded in a desert with no food shows they have willpower? I'm confused. You said it just took willpower and now you have them stranded in the desert.


No, as you well know, I never said anything about willpower. Apparently you're either confusing me with someone else, or intentionally trying to blame me for something. I have no idea what. The reason I pointed out the many cases of people being stranded, going for extended periods without eating, and suffering no ill effects is because you claimed that nobody could just quit eating, cold turkey. 

Anyway, more importantly, have you ever once considered something that everybody else can clearly see, that when you try to convince me, BFF, the board in general that it's impossible for some people to lose weight, it's just beyond their control, that you're really trying to convince yourself that it's beyond your control? So, if you don't want to actually do the work it takes to lose weight, don't. You can't convince people of that, though, when they know better. Losing weight is fairly straightforward. Still, the cravings that got you there in the first place are strong. That desire to think 3 donuts, footlong sub with chips, and a whole pizza is a normal days intake won't disappear overnight. Still, the process is simple.


----------



## 5_Star

Clem said:


> Hey, stay fat and miserable, if it means that much to ya. No matter how much you equivocate, you alone are responsible for what you put in your mouth, and how much. Those "toxins" you describe are known as hunger, or cravings by most people. And that's exactly what they are. Just say no, you'd get over it in a day or 2.
> 
> And yes, you can just stop eating cold turkey. All the people who have been stranded in the desert, or on a boat, some for weeks and months, nothing to eat. And, generally, no long term ill effects, either. Don't tell me you can't stop.


I'm glad cold turkey worked for you. Unfortunately, it doesn't work for a lot of us due to one excuse or the other. Stress has been my big excuse. 

I'd love to hear your thoughts on alcoholics, crack heads, meth heads, pot heads, and hoarders. Probably to much thread drift, though.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

MoonRiver said:


> if you don't have a problem with weight, *why even post here*? I can't see where you are adding any value to the discussion.


I thought there might be something interesting or educational to read based on the title.



> Terri said:
> OneRadDad, BearFootFarms, *if you have no cravings* it just means you are not a diabetic, not suffering from any deficiencies, and do not need any diet advice. Not everybody can say that.


I have lots of cravings.
I just don't give in to them.


----------



## MoonRiver

Clem said:


> No, as you well know, I never said anything about willpower. Apparently you're either confusing me with someone else, or intentionally trying to blame me for something. I have no idea what. The reason I pointed out the many cases of people being stranded, going for extended periods without eating, and suffering no ill effects is because you claimed that nobody could just quit eating, cold turkey.
> 
> Anyway, more importantly, have you ever once considered something that everybody else can clearly see, that when you try to convince me, BFF, the board in general that it's impossible for some people to lose weight, it's just beyond their control, that you're really trying to convince yourself that it's beyond your control? So, if you don't want to actually do the work it takes to lose weight, don't. You can't convince people of that, though, when they know better. Losing weight is fairly straightforward. Still, the cravings that got you there in the first place are strong. That desire to think 3 donuts, footlong sub with chips, and a whole pizza is a normal days intake won't disappear overnight. Still, the process is simple.


Right now I am down 88 lbs. My point about doughnuts was if one's diet has been bad for years, it is extremely difficult to just change to a healthy diet. Our bodies are a collection of cells and many of them have been damaged by a poor diet. Simply starting to eat nutritious foods doesn't immediately heal the body. It can take several years to get healthy after years of a poor diet. Usually things like blood pressure and glucose level get better pretty quickly, but getting organs healthy can take a while. Poor diet can damage the body just like drugs and alcohol can. An alcoholic isn't healed after 2 months of being sober and neither is someone on a diet.


----------



## oneraddad

Terri said:


> Better yet, choose foods that gets rid of your cravings.
> 
> OneRadDad, BearFootFarms, if you have no cravings it just means you are not a diabetic, not suffering from any deficiencies, and do not need any diet advice. Not everybody can say that.
> 
> I am as I was born to be. The point now is, what am I going to do about it?
> 
> The answer is, I am going to stick holes in my finger and test my blood to prevent the blood sugar swings that sets off cravings. Different people with different problems will find different answers.
> 
> Tell me, are you searching for a diet that will work for you?



Hey, guess what ? I'm diabetic and when I have cravings I make a choice if I wanna give in or if I wanna stay on track. I know the crackers you talk about often aren't good for you.


----------



## Terri

oneraddad said:


> Hey, guess what ? I'm diabetic and when I have cravings I make a choice if I wanna give in or if I wanna stay on track. I know the crackers you talk about often aren't good for you.


Good for you!

When I get too hungry, my hands shake, my breath turns bad, I tend to stumble, I get restless and angry, and it is hard to think clearly. "Wet and wild" is the term that nurses use.

When I feel that coming on I eat 2 saltine crackers to stop it from developing. Because there are worse things than saltines.


----------



## Skamp

MoonRiver said:


> It's pretty obvious to me that we have been drugged by the food companies with antibiotics, with growth hormones, with pesticides, with huge amounts of sugar and salt, with chemicals our bodies can't digest, with dangerous plastics, etc. So cutting back on food is also cutting back on drugs and the withdrawal is as real as it is with heroin. And you can't quit eating cold turkey.



I find it rather odd that anyone associated with a forum such as this would be worried with the worldly concerns.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

MoonRiver said:


> I'll repeat myself. If you don't have a weight problem, *why* grace us with all your expertise?


*Because you* *asked* without setting weigh requirements for the responses:

The OP:


MoonRiver said:


> Excess weight is a symptom.
> Losing weight is not a cure.
> *Thoughts?*


If you don't want thoughts on an open forum, it's better not to ask for them.


----------



## Oregon1986

Another thread turned ugly


----------



## oneraddad

Oregon1986 said:


> Another thread turned ugly



Actually it started out ugly.

No one knows another's journey and to cheap'n their struggles with it's just a "disease" cop out is total BS.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

I think the OP was baiting.


----------



## MoonRiver

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I think the OP was baiting.


Obesity is Now Considered a Disease
Disease of Obesity
Obesity - A Preventable Disease
The Obesity Epidemic - Understanding the Disease and the Treatment

Do you need any more references?


----------



## barnbilder

MoonRiver said:


> Willpower has little to nothing to do with being overweight. Do you think early man had to go on a diet?
> 
> When the body is working correctly, extra calories are burned while we sleep. Ever have a night where you wake up in the middle of the night and have to remove some of the covers because you are too hot, even though the temperature in the room is actually cooler? That's your body burning off excess calories.
> 
> Do animals in the wild get fat without purpose? Look at the extent people go to fatten up cattle. They feed them grain because grain makes them fat. If left to their normal diet, they would never get fat.


Cows can get fat on their "normal diet". Their normal diet includes lots of grain for three quarters of. They will eat a lot of headed out grass if they can find it. Just like people, cows get fat from not working enough. Working for cows means carrying a calf or milking or pulling a yoke hooked to something. For a very small percentage it means walking around a lot and jumping on and off other cows. Cows left too long without calf can get too fat to breed on just grass, their normal diet. Boy cows, past a certain age can get too fat on just hay, and might injure themselves trying to breed, if they don't have enough cows and property to check on, or the attentive eye of a farmer to cut back the calories.

It has always amazed me to hear people condemn grain in the human diet. Send ten people down a path in high grass that has seed. Walk behind them. At least half of them will reach out and instinctively pull seed heads off in their fingers. Early man ate grain. We evolved eating grain. Granted we evolved eating whole grain, but grain nonetheless.


----------



## barnbilder

5_Star said:


> My wife could be Barnbilder's sister. lol She says all I have to do is stop eating. If it's that easy, you would think rehab programs would be a lot shorter.


Naw man, my sister is like 350, pushing 400, barely five feet tall, and is always talking about her genetic predispositions toward weight gain. Have actually had that conversation while she was swilling soda, how she barely eats anything. Which is true, but the bags of empty two liter bottles sticking out of her trash can tells me she is getting more calories than she is burning. A glance in her direction could tell me that as well. She even tried the Atkins. Ate everything in wraps (which are basically just bread without air holes) drank diet soda, except when cheating on her diet. Didn't do a bit of good for that week, because genetics.


----------



## MoonRiver

barnbilder said:


> Naw man, my sister is like 350, pushing 400, barely five feet tall, and is always talking about her genetic predispositions toward weight gain. Have actually had that conversation while she was swilling soda, how she barely eats anything. Which is true, but the bags of empty two liter bottles sticking out of her trash can tells me she is getting more calories than she is burning. A glance in her direction could tell me that as well. She even tried the Atkins. Ate everything in wraps (which are basically just bread without air holes) drank diet soda, except when cheating on her diet. Didn't do a bit of good for that week, because genetics.


It very well might be genetics. She can get a genetics test for between $100 and $200. I will be glad to provide references to tools that can be used to interpret the information.

I first accidentally stumbled on the fact saturated fat was causing most or at least some of the problems I was having with weight and blood pressure. Later I confirmed it with genetic analysis. I have several SNPs (gene settings) that show I have a likely problem digesting and metabolizing fat, especially saturated fat.

Think what would happen if much of the fat you were eating wasn't properly digested and/or metabolized. Where would it go? It would be stored as fat, even if you were eating a low calorie diet. It is circulated in the blood stream until it is either converted to ATP or stored as fat, and since your mitochondria are not efficient at converting fat to ATP, most of it just gets stored as fat. It also causes an increase in LDL because it is used to transport the fat. That's why for some people, eating more fat lowers LDL and for others it raises it. It depends on how efficient the mitochondria re at burning fat.

To make things even worse, undigested saturated fat leaks through the gut wall and carries with it dead and bad bacteria. Now your immune system goes on the attack mode to try to get rid of these foreign substances. That means you also have massive inflammation which creates another set of problems.

Remember the old nursery rhyme:

Jack Sprat could eat no fat
His Wife could eat no lean
And so between them both,
you see,
they licked the platter clean

So having trouble eating fat has been a known problem for quite a while; but for some reason, the medical community ignores it.


----------



## Terri

High blood sugar can be addictive. IMHO.

Remember that I am a diabetic? Once I got my diet adjusted to prevent the high blood sugars, I really MISSED the warm, relaxed feeling that used to follow meals. I missed being able to say "AAhh " as I pushed away from the table. Instead I just sort of stopped eating when the allowed food was gone.

I suspect that an addict is an addict, but since I have never been addicted to another substance I have nothing to compare it to.


----------



## barnbilder

I have been addicted to both nicotine and alcohol. Still am in fact, yet I don't partake in either. It all comes down to willpower. No one can do it for you, and there is no magic bean, no guru, and no article in an e-magazine that will make you achieve your goals long term.The only way to change yourself is by realizing your self worth and making a conscious effort, every minute of every day to adhere to your own core goals. Weight loss is no different. Cushings, diabetes, hypothyroidism make things more tricky, but so does a coworker that smokes. You can go around or over an obstacle but you will be stuck behind an excuse for as long as you consider it an excuse.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Thank you for the references. That ought to be plenty. 

Have a wonderful day!


----------



## painterswife

There are plenty of things that can help reduce an addiction. 

https://www.centeronaddiction.org/what-addiction/addiction-disease
"Addiction is a disease of the brain. Addiction is caused by a combination of behavioral, environmental and biological factors. Genetic risks factors account for about half of the likelihood that an individual will develop addiction."


Willpower is only one tool used in reducing the effects of addiction. 

"*WHY IS WILL POWER OFTEN NOT ENOUGH?*
The initial and early decisions to use substances reflect a person’s free or conscious choice. However, once the brain has been changed by addiction, that choice or willpower becomes impaired. Perhaps the most defining symptom of addiction is a loss of control over substance use. "


----------



## Bearfootfarm

MoonRiver said:


> Obesity is Now Considered a Disease
> Disease of Obesity
> Obesity - A Preventable Disease
> The Obesity Epidemic - Understanding the Disease and the Treatment
> 
> Do you need any more references?


Every one of those sources says this "disease" can be "cured" through dietary and lifestyle changes.
(Except the first one, which was pretty much an ad for a bariatric surgeon's office)
Calling it a "disease" is partly just a way to get insurance companies to pay for treatments.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

Bearfootfarm said:


> Calling it a "disease" is partly just a way to get insurance companies to pay for treatments.


BINGO!!


----------



## mnn2501

MoonRiver said:


> It very well might be genetics. She can get a genetics test for between $100 and $200. I will be glad to provide references to tools that can be used to interpret the information.
> .


Would you provide link(s) to additional info about this please?


----------



## MoonRiver

mnn2501 said:


> Would you provide link(s) to additional info about this please?


Just 2 minutes ago I got an email from 23andme saying the lab is on sale this weekend at $50 off - $149.

This link explains what is included in health and ancestry.
https://customercare.23andme.com/hc...107-About-the-23andMe-Health-Ancestry-Service

This link is where you order with discount.
https://click.mail.23andme.com/?qs=...0fc76d647af91dec7ba56322da039e83f30de9600a434


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## barnbilder

So if you send these folks a hundred and fiddy, you can have proof that it is genetics and not a lack of will power that is the reason you are fat? Interesting business model.


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## MoonRiver

barnbilder said:


> So if you send these folks a hundred and fiddy, you can have proof that it is genetics and not a lack of will power that is the reason you are fat? Interesting business model.


Why not go to the link and read what it says?


----------



## mnn2501

MoonRiver said:


> Just 2 minutes ago I got an email from 23andme saying the lab is on sale this weekend at $50 off - $149.
> 
> This link explains what is included in health and ancestry.
> https://customercare.23andme.com/hc...107-About-the-23andMe-Health-Ancestry-Service
> 
> This link is where you order with discount.
> https://click.mail.23andme.com/?qs=...0fc76d647af91dec7ba56322da039e83f30de9600a434


Thanks. I'll check it out.


----------



## Terri

barnbilder said:


> I have been addicted to both nicotine and alcohol. Still am in fact, yet I don't partake in either. It all comes down to willpower. No one can do it for you, and there is no magic bean, no guru, and no article in an e-magazine that will make you achieve your goals long term.


I PARTIALLY agree and partially disagree. It takes both willpower *AND* knowledge.

My diabetes was misdiagnosed. I felt terrible on the high-carb diet the doctor wanted me to follow and the harder I worked at staying on it the more I gained weight because my system was all messed up: I alternated between feeling ill and feeling sleepy. You see, sugar was allowed on the diet they gave me but fat was not and protein was restricted. I had LOADS of willpower, but willpower was not enough.

1 year later I was correctly diagnosed with diabetes. My diet was changed to allow more protein and less carbs and no sugar. I instantly felt better.

I also started losing weight, even though I needed less willpower than to stay on the diet that was high in carbs and sugar. I think it was because my system started working correctly: when I ate the food entered the cells of my body the way it was supposed to instead of going round and round in my blood stream, and when I exercised the cells used up the food and got more from my blood stream. On the old diet that did not work very well, on the new diet it worked like it was supposed to.

Willpower on a high-sugar diet was not enough: I needed more knowledge about the diet that was right for me. When I got the knowledge I needed, *THEN* having enough willpower counted!!!!!!!!!


----------



## MoonRiver

I woke up this morning wondering if wheat or gluten could cause a leaky gut. I found this easy to understand article that backs up what I posted about bad stuff from the gut leaking into the blood stream and causing massive inflammation. The paragraph below seems extremely important to our discussion.


> Opiate activity of semi-digested peptide fragments from the gliadin protein stimulate the appetite centers of the brain causing “constant hunger”, increased caloric intake and obesity. Because the wheat opiates are addictive, elimination of wheat may cause withdrawal effects in susceptible people.(7).


http://jeffreydachmd.com/2013/03/wheat-gluten-leaky-gut-and-autoimmune-disease-by-jeffrey-dach-md/

Good article on leaky gut that explains what leaky gut is, some of the causes, symptoms, and treatment.


> Once your gut is leaky and toxins, viruses, bacteria and food particles are flooding your bloodstream, your immune system marks them as dangerous invaders and creates inflammation to get rid of them. As your gut remains leaky and more and more particles escape into your bloodstream, your immune system sends out wave after wave of inflammation. Eventually it becomes over stressed and begins firing less accurately. This leads to autoimmunity as your own tissues end up in the cross hairs.
> 
> On top of this, your immune system starts making antibodies against the substances in your bloodstream because it recognizes them as foreign invaders. Many of these foreign invaders look very similar to your own body’s cells. Your immune system can get confused and accidentally attack your tissues. This process of mistaken identity is called molecular mimicry. Gluten and dairy are common culprits behind molecular mimicry, particularly autoimmune thyroid conditions (Hashimoto’s and Graves’).


https://www.amymyersmd.com/2017/10/leaky-gut-autoimmune-connection/


----------



## Clem

An opiate, by definition, is derived from opium. Opiod is the word they want. I'd be leery of a doctor that wrote about opiates without knowing the definition of the word.


----------



## MoonRiver

Clem said:


> An opiate, by definition, is derived from opium. Opiod is the word they want. I'd be leery of a doctor that wrote about opiates without knowing the definition of the word.


Opiate also means resembling opium. He said opiate activity meaning it acts much like opium. From medical dictionary:
Opioid: denoting naturally occurring peptides, such as enkephalins, that exert opiate-like effects by interacting with *opiate receptors* of cell membranes.


----------



## Clem

Even your own definition there says opiate-like effects. And opiate receptors. Wouldn't you think there's a reason that there are two words, one to describe actual opiates, and the other to describe substances with opiate-like effects?
Opiate as in opiate-like effects is different than opiate as in wheat opiates. One an adjective, the other a noun. Wouldn't mean a lot to you or me, but it would be a massive failure for an actual doctor, writing a paper on the subject.

I know that you like to follow some out-of-mainstream medicos, but, for the larger part, following a doctor who doesn't know the definition of the words he is using seems sort of Russian-rouletteish.


----------



## Clem

It's finally light enough to see, and there's about 3 inches of snow on everything! You got that in Danville?


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## MoonRiver

Clem said:


> It's finally light enough to see, and there's about 3 inches of snow on everything! You got that in Danville?


Yep. First they said 1"-2", then 4", then less than 1", and we got at least 3". It is now melting so fast there is a heavy fog.


----------



## MoonRiver

Clem said:


> Even your own definition there says opiate-like effects. And opiate receptors. Wouldn't you think there's a reason that there are two words, one to describe actual opiates, and the other to describe substances with opiate-like effects?
> Opiate as in opiate-like effects is different than opiate as in wheat opiates. One an adjective, the other a noun. Wouldn't mean a lot to you or me, but it would be a massive failure for an actual doctor, writing a paper on the subject.
> 
> I know that you like to follow some out-of-mainstream medicos, but, for the larger part, following a doctor who doesn't know the definition of the words he is using seems sort of Russian-rouletteish.


The point is the proteins from wheat bind to the same receptors that opiates do and has much the same effect. This is only when the proteins leak through the gut into the blood stream. For people that can digest wheat without any problems, this doesn't happen.

It is the medical explanation for why wheat acts like a drug to some people and not to others.

There are scientific studies backing up what the doctors I follow recommend. it's the doctors people go to on a daily basis who follow the recommendations of the drug companies rather than current medical science. If my body reacts poorly to what they recommend, I stop doing it. They are just a resource to help me improve my health. Most of these doctors had serious health problems that other doctors couldn't cure, so they did their own research and developed their own treatment plans. That's what led them to become functional medicine doctors. They try to cure the underlying disease rather than treat the symptoms with drugs.
_



“In my early 20s, I took off on an around-the-world trip. I was surfing in Indonesia [when] I got an acute tropical illness — fever, chills, diarrhea, delirium. I don’t really remember much of what happened during those few days. But there was an Australian staying in the little village that I was in who happened to have some antibiotics that brought me back from the brink,” Kresser says. 

“That evolved into a decade long journey back to health … I came home and … proceeded to see probably no fewer than 20 or 25 doctors over the course of the next several years, in three different countries, hoping they would be able to help me. Most of the doctors I saw meant well. 

They tried their best to help, but I quickly found out that conventional medicine, while it’s fantastic at dealing with trauma and emergencies, it was really miserable at dealing with the kind of complex chronic illness that I had developed. 

Despite everyone’s best efforts, nobody was able to help. I eventually decided there was no one that was more deeply invested in my own healing than myself. I started my own exploration, which eventually led to returning to school to study Chinese medicine and acupuncture. 

I chose that because of all the modalities I tried along my journey, that was what has been most helpful to me. But then, even before I graduated from school, I realized I wasn’t going to end up practicing Chinese medicine. I discovered functional medicine and kind of moved in that direction.”

Click to expand...

Chris Kessler 

What these doctors have in common is they practice functional or integrative medicine. Even the Cleveland Clinic, one of the most prestigious health care providers in US has created a functional medicine clinic. Hopefully, functional medicine is the future for health care in US.



CLEVELAND, Ohio – In its ongoing focus on wellness and disease prevention, the Cleveland Clinic is opening a new Center for Functional Medicine. In doing so, the Clinic is the first academic medical center in the United States to embrace functional medicine, the focus of which is more on identifying underlying causes of illness and less on symptom management.

Click to expand...

http://www.cleveland.com/healthfit/index.ssf/2014/09/cleveland_clinic_to_open_cente.html_


----------



## Clem

I've read about different foods and the opiate receptors. I'd imagine it to be more addictive than pain relieving, although there is a great deal of comfort to be had in a big chunk of a favorite food. But, I'm not opposed to, as a controlled experiment, making a batch of cookies, or a loaf of sourdough next time my back is hurting real bad. Especially those no bake cookies.
Come to think of it, I do feel a sort of a twinge, right now.


----------



## Terri

Functional medicine... I have never heard that term before but I think I LIKE it !!!!!!!!!


----------



## Nsoitgoes

Clem said:


> I've read about different foods and the opiate receptors. I'd imagine it to be more addictive than pain relieving, although there is a great deal of comfort to be had in a big chunk of a favorite food. But, I'm not opposed to, as a controlled experiment, making a batch of cookies, or a loaf of sourdough next time my back is hurting real bad. Especially those no bake cookies.
> Come to think of it, I do feel a sort of a twinge, right now.


I feel I have to comment on this. Comfort Food is well-named. It is the food we turn to when we are unwell or feeling low or unhappy. Why? Because it relieves those feelings by flooding our brains with the feel-good endorphins. Most of the time I have no problem staying well away from high carb foods. But if I am feeling "down" they are a lot harder to resist, and once I capitulate it is *really* hard to quit. So they are both relieving AND addictive. I have also noticed that if I have got a lot of pain, as happens occasionally, my resistance is much lower and should I allow myself a high carb meal, the perceived pain level *is* reduced.


----------



## Danaus29

Every time I eat oatmeal, 2 hours later and for the rest of the day I feel like I am starving! Stomach rumbling and growling, shakes and headache. Even adding fruit and nuts helps only a little. But an egg scrambled with some kale and cheese and I can go all day. 

Salads are variable. The ones made with iceberg lettuce are just junk. Good salads are made with nutritious leafy greens. Add some egg, mushrooms, salmon chunks and cheese and you've got a meal that fills you up. 

I've been struggling with my weight for about 7 or 8 years. Before that I could eat as much of anything I wanted and not gain weight. I don't sit and eat bags of chips, buckets of ice cream, half sheet cakes or dozens of cookies anymore. I don't drink soda by the 2 liter anymore either. 

For some people simply cutting calories or carbs doesn't help. Increasing exercise isn't always possible. If that was all it is to losing weight very few people would be overweight.

For those who say you can stop eating cold turkey, how exactly do you do that? You have to eat to live. There is no way around that. Or are you saying stop eating the junk cold turkey? if so, please distinguish between the 2 because it is very confusing.

My mother in law who eats mostly junk food and processed garbage has lost weight and kept it off by fasting every Sunday. But come Monday morning she goes back on her chips and ice cream diet. What's funny is that she is 88 years old and still gets around and mows her yard!


----------



## Clem

Hi Danaus. I'm one who stops eating, cold turkey.

This is what I do. At 6'3", I maintain a weight range, in the winter, of 190-200 pounds. If I hit the bottom of that range, I just eat more, or more often, really. Every day is a brand new adventure in eating, BUT it starts with getting on the scale. If I weigh over 200, I don't eat, period. Black coffee, water. That's it. I'll weigh myself every morning, until I'm halfway back down, at <195. The "not eating" mode is still in charge, usually I'll drop another couple pounds before stabilizing.

In the summer, or warmer weather, starting late April-early October, I drop 10 pounds off that range, and stay between 180-190. Because that's what my body does, it loses weight in the garden season, I'm busy, I'm sweating, and I eat an awful lot of fruit and vegetables right off the tree/vine. However, if I drop at the bottom end of that range, I just eat some "heavier" or "richer" food.

My experience is that it doesn't matter if I'm eating meat or not. I don't try balancing anything. I just get on that scale every morning.

So, probably 95% of the time, I'm eating all I want of anything I want. I guess I average going over or under once a month. It's not a big deal.

There are a couple main points though. It's important to understand what you want. Maybe even modify that some. If you want ice cream, on a bed of potato chips, with chocolate syrup and butter on top, you need to re-examine your values in life. Cut a deal with a local medical school to let you sit in on an autopsy of a fat person or something. Do some real, fact based research. Don't bother reading what somebody found to fill the blanks in their agenda. Then come back to the ice cream issue.

And, keep in mind that going 2 or 3 days without eating won't kill you. It will, in fact, extend your life. There is a whole lot of stuff more important than eating.

Disclosure..I used to be fat. I got up the last fat day of my life...rejected as a kidney donor because of my fat, and weighed 288 pounds.

I'm 67 years old. I've wore out a lot of much younger people, trying to prove they could keep up. It's a lifestyle based on zen philosophy, but not as a religion.

I am determined to get all I can from life. That's why my health is important. Before the last fat day of my life, I believed it was my destiny to be fat.

I'll leave you with this to ponder, a first step, sort of. A creed.

*I am what I am becoming.*


----------



## Skamp

Clem said:


> Hi Danaus. I'm one who stops eating, cold turkey.
> 
> This is what I do. At 6'3", I maintain a weight range, in the winter, of 190-200 pounds. If I hit the bottom of that range, I just eat more, or more often, really. Every day is a brand new adventure in eating, BUT it starts with getting on the scale. If I weigh over 200, I don't eat, period. Black coffee, water. That's it. I'll weigh myself every morning, until I'm halfway back down, at <195. The "not eating" mode is still in charge, usually I'll drop another couple pounds before stabilizing.
> 
> In the summer, or warmer weather, starting late April-early October, I drop 10 pounds off that range, and stay between 180-190. Because that's what my body does, it loses weight in the garden season, I'm busy, I'm sweating, and I eat an awful lot of fruit and vegetables right off the tree/vine. However, if I drop at the bottom end of that range, I just eat some "heavier" or "richer" food.
> 
> My experience is that it doesn't matter if I'm eating meat or not. I don't try balancing anything. I just get on that scale every morning.
> 
> So, probably 95% of the time, I'm eating all I want of anything I want. I guess I average going over or under once a month. It's not a big deal.
> 
> There are a couple main points though. It's important to understand what you want. Maybe even modify that some. If you want ice cream, on a bed of potato chips, with chocolate syrup and butter on top, you need to re-examine your values in life. Cut a deal with a local medical school to let you sit in on an autopsy of a fat person or something. Do some real, fact based research. Don't bother reading what somebody found to fill the blanks in their agenda. Then come back to the ice cream issue.
> 
> And, keep in mind that going 2 or 3 days without eating won't kill you. It will, in fact, extend your life. There is a whole lot of stuff more important than eating.
> 
> Disclosure..I used to be fat. I got up the last fat day of my life...rejected as a kidney donor because of my fat, and weighed 288 pounds.
> 
> I'm 67 years old. I've wore out a lot of much younger people, trying to prove they could keep up. It's a lifestyle based on zen philosophy, but not as a religion.
> 
> I am determined to get all I can from life. That's why my health is important. Before the last fat day of my life, I believed it was my destiny to be fat.
> 
> I'll leave you with this to ponder, a first step, sort of. A creed.
> 
> *I am what I am becoming.*



I’m gonna quote the whole post because I like it, not because I agree with every detail. 

I need the right kind of carb, and protein, and fat in the oven when I show each morning. I need to be able to cypher, and lift my way through a shift. 

If you’ve damaged the flue, have a leaky draft, have a bad, or no, flue dampener, are burning wet wood, are burning low BTU wood, or otherwise don’t know the difference between kindling, and wood, keeping a proper fire is gonna be a problem.


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## Clem

No, it's not going to be for everybody. Some people do have broken parts. 

I was just raised different. Don't mean it's right. Or wrong. I'm just saying this is what I do.


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## Skamp

Clem said:


> No, it's not going to be for everybody. Some people do have broken parts.
> 
> I was just raised different. Don't mean it's right. Or wrong. I'm just saying this is what I do.


And that needs to be weighed in the decision of fringe decisions. It’s a bell curve, and those at either end tend to be the most vocal. Those just in the curve seem to be looking for an outside fix.


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## painterswife

Clem said:


> No, it's not going to be for everybody. Some people do have broken parts.
> 
> I was just raised different. Don't mean it's right. Or wrong. I'm just saying this is what I do.


I hope to be able to get to that point. I can do a 48 hour fast pretty easy now.


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## Skamp

painterswife said:


> I hope to be able to get to that point. I can do a 48 hour fast pretty easy now.


I really question your cognitive skills in that time frame.


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## painterswife

Skamp said:


> I really question your cognitive skills in that time frame.


Why? My brain runs on ketones. Burning fat in ketosis creates ketones. Even better if I can get to 72 hours then I hit authophagy. Then I am breaking down dead or diseased cells, cleaning the body of things not working properly. I find I am much more alert and productive when fasting.


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## 4tu

some people like a little jiggle or a lot so your observation is personal appeal I know people that will not date anyone that does not look like a crackhead flat chested and a certain color hair. I have seen others that start to sweat when they see a 300 pounder. I have known over weight people that lived between 70 to 80 years and seen thin people drop dead at 40. Remember Euell Gibbons, "ever eat a tree" health nut died when he was 64 so his view on healthy was a bust, a cardiologist at the local hospital was jogging in perfect health weight or so he though dropped dead on the jogging trail at 50 years old in fine weather. 

No one lives past Gods freshness date you can't see it but your expiration is known -- just not by you and there is nothing worse than crabby women on a diet and grousing about it so that it is their only topic of conversation and when they can eat it's like listening to a porno film. 2 days later complain they are constipated self absorption is more ugly than being over weight in my opinion. and I have seen people call others hogs that were normal so ? they can't wear a 2 piece if they want or a speedo ?


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