# Wood-powered generator



## pinkdex (Jan 5, 2014)

Has anyone tried this? Seems like it would be a much more abundant source of energy than solar (and more reliable.) my idea would be to make a wood-burning furnace that heats up steam to spin the turbine, thus creating electricity just like in a power plant. I would still want to supplement with solar, but if you think of the tree as a biological solar panel, there is just a lot more readily accessible energy stored in the branches of a tree, my only fear would be running out of wood. I would want to stoke the fire pretty close to 24/7, so I don't know if a property could maintain that amount of wood consumption, or if I'd have to get my wood from somewhere else


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## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

I don't know if it could be done on a small scale. I asked basically the same question on another forum a couple of years ago and received nothing but criticism.

As far as keeping fire burning 24/7, you would only need to do that in winter time or any time you have several days of low sunlight. That is if you are also going to have solar.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Live steam is extremely dangerous.

You must become very well versed about live steam before doing anything like that..

With out a huge amount of knowledge about live steam it is a disaster waiting to happen..........


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## K.B. (Sep 7, 2012)

came across this article from a couple years ago this past weekend - using dried duckweed pellets to fire a generator. Similar to standard pellet stoves, but coupled with a steam driven generator, I imagine. Was supposed to eventually be available in several sizes, from backyard residential to power plant scale, but I haven't come across any indication that it made it to production. 

http://www.kval.com/news/local/117947779.html


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## MichaelK! (Oct 22, 2010)

What turbine exactly? You gonna recycle a used jet engine? How are you going to make a turbine that's coupled to an electrical generator? Do you have an precision machining skills, or are you just going to order a turbine from www.turbine.com?


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## pinkdex (Jan 5, 2014)

Yes, it is quite dangerous. Good thing that one of the classes in my current Energy Engineering degree is called "Steam Turbines" I think that will probably come in quite a bit of handy (I am an electro/mechanical and energy engineer.)

What dangers particularly are you speaking of? A proclivity to be burned by the exhaling jets of steam, or the boiler exploding, or both? I don't value my earthly existence so much that I would avoid working on something I love, steam and energy generation, because there is some risk involved. Life has risks. There are a number of simple engineering fail-safes you can incorporate into a steam-powered device to mitigate these risks.

Now, that being said, I contend that this could revolutionize off-grid living if a safe, efficient, and reproducible way to do it could be manufactured. Unfortunately, the public, like you, is afraid of steam even though most every american house has a water-heater, which is basically a ticking time-bomb, and uses things like pressure cookers, etc.

No, there is no need to be afraid of steam as long as the appropriate fail-safes are taken.


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## pinkdex (Jan 5, 2014)

> How are you going to make a turbine coupled to an electric generator?


Lol, the same way that most people get 99% of their electricity, which is through steam turbines putting magnets through coils of wire. Is this guy serious?

EDIT: Here is your lesson for the day, energy generation 101. http://geothermal.marin.org/geopresentation/images/img038.jpg


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## pinkdex (Jan 5, 2014)

I don't understand the skepticism on this thread. Energy generation is not a hard concept. What I am suggesting is almost point-for-point the same as a wind-generator. A wind-generator is nothing more than a rotating magnet in a coil of wire. This is literally the exact same thing, except since it's powered by steam there's a few more technical complications than with wind. However, unlike wind, the source of energy can be controlled, as fuel can be added or removed as needed.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

I'd imagine it is more a scale of economy thing. The cost of a steam boiler and turbine is fine if you're building a huge power plant.....but not so much to generate 10-20kw you'd need to run a household. You get into having a boiler operator ( to meet State requirements )....24/7 basically.....so you're looking at 4-5 (BARE minimum) certified folks right off the bat. Yeah, you can say "this is private deal".....but hey, SOMEBODY still has to run the thing.

My guess is a steam engine turning a conventional generator would be a whole lot more cost efficient on a small scale.

There was a company out of Florida ( I don't remember the name right off ) that I looked into for a local sawmill that hired me to do a feasibility study on setting up a steam plant for them ( they have a LOT of wood waste they now truck off to a steam plant ). The sawmill did NOT have enough waste to set up any kind of generation I could come up with....scale of economy thing again.....and my advice was to continue to truck their waste to the place that DID have a big enough scale to do so.
I'd be glad to expound on the things I found in this study if anybody really wants to know.

ANYway, the Florida company:

They sold a package plant, consisting of a big dumpster deal ( with ceramic coated side/bottom.....sorta like fire brick in a wood stove ) was a steam generator.

It was designed to take into disaster areas for cleanup after a hurricane/tornado, not only to burn waste trees and construction scrap, but to supply a source of power in where the local system was blown away. You basically fired this thing with propane burner to get it started ( had large fan to feed lots of air to the dumpster ), and the sides of the dumpster had tubes that circulated freon as the fluid media. Boiled the freon, ran it thru a GE turbine/generator in a closed cycle, aftercooled and condensed the freon and run it back thru the loop again and again.

I don't remember the size of the generator, but I'm thinking it was in the 100-250kw range. Again, that is WAY over the requirements of a home based unit.....and the cost of these was in the 1/2 million buck range....so we're back to that scale of economy thing again. BUT it was a really neat packaged system for what it was intended to do.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Mother Earth News had quite a few articles on wood gassification systems. Steam is not involved. The wood is heated without enough oxygen for complete combustion which drives off combustible gases. The gases are used to drive an engine which in turn drives a generator. One of the articles involved a pickup that was driven cross country on construction scrap.

The downside is the gas is nasty and some sort of filtration is needed before feeding it to the engine. 

Not long ago commercial systems were available in Sweden


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Using wood, I'd think on a small scale, an engine run generator burning wood gas would be the way to go. I intend to find out one of these days when I have the time to get around to it. I've got a retired machinist buddy that is interested in working with me on one, so maybe we'll get to that one day.

The mechanics are a lot more simple than steam ( even than a steam engine ), you can use pretty much off the shelf components ( engine/generator ), and you can do it pretty much very small scale.

The biggest problem I see in one is finding an easy way to filter the raw gas.

EDIT: Darren and I were typing at the same time.


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## Raymond James (Apr 15, 2013)

Check out Engineer 775 on u-tube.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYGKn12Weu4[/ame] 

Uses a "normal" generator that is converted to run on gasified wood. 

He has lots of good ideas. I need him to move to mid Missouri and be my neighbor!


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## pinkdex (Jan 5, 2014)

Apparently, there is some major confusion on this thread about how electricity is generated. There is absolutely nothing complicated about it. A magnetic field will excite the electrons in copper wire creating an electrical current. Here is a great video demonstrating the simplicity and beauty of just that 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OHmMVBLXTI&feature=c4-overview&list=UUyLsEqA7frP7AGlUZlr6ZKQ[/ame]

Applying this same principle with steam requires only that you have housing for the turbine so the steam will create enough pressure to turn the thing. The turbine is attached mechanically to a spindle which turns the magnet inside the wire when the turbine spins. It literally could not be any simpler.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

pinkdex said:


> I don't understand the skepticism on this thread. Energy generation is not a hard concept. What I am suggesting is almost point-for-point the same as a wind-generator. A wind-generator is nothing more than a rotating magnet in a coil of wire. This is literally the exact same thing, except since it's powered by steam *there's a few more technical complications than with wind.* However, unlike wind, the source of energy can be controlled, as fuel can be added or removed as needed.



Yeah....it's the "few more technical complications" that put it out of reach for SMALL SCALE.

For example, when I was studying this for the sawmill, I went and looked a furniture plant that used steam to run their dry kilns. Most furniture plants buy green lumber from mills, (it's cheaper), then used the scrap generated in the plant to feed a boiler to make steam to run their dry kilns. This one particular plant also set up a steam turbine to generator electricity to feed back to the grid.

Now even THEY couldn't justify a steam generator alone.....the boiler by itself took up a 30x30x25' tall room......but since they were already making steam for their kilns, this was an add-on they could use when they were NOT running the kilns ( they didn't make enough scrap to do both at the same time )


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

pinkdex said:


> It literally could not be any simpler.


Hey, build it. Keep it under ten grand for a 10kw system, require only one operator, and I'll be your first customer.


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## Space Cowboy (Apr 26, 2008)

There has been a lot of interest and a few companies over the last 3 decades on small scale steam powered generated electricity. All the major problems have been associated with a low cost/reliable/SAFE boiler. No one has succeeded so far. 

SC


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

One of the issues is the incredible machine work done to create an efficient steam turbine. Modern turbines are designed to extract as much energy as possible from the steam which means lots of blades and multiple stages as the steam loses pressure. In a steam turbine each blade is weighed and computer positioned on the rotor to provide an initial balance. Then the entire unit is balanced with weights on the ends.

Trying to do something on a home scale with high pressure steam is beyond challenging. Another issue is the high temperatures required and the insulation to keep that heat in. Power plants don't use fiberglass insulation. Metallic reflective insulation is used which requires special skills to install, or R&R.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

The USN taught me a bit about steam engines and a couple of years ago, I asked the same question; why can't I burn the massive piles of waste wood on my farm and create electricity? In theory, it is super easy. I'm fairly stubborn and it took a lot of negativity to convince me in practice, it is not realistic. After a lot of research, here is what I concluded (from memory so this is not an exhaustive list):

1. waste of resources - The power company fritters away up to 50% of the energy it produces due to transmission loss and over production to deal with spikes in demand. At home level production, the problem is when the HVAC, frig, and other high power users come on. They need lots of power for a second or two and if you are not supplying that power, you burn out components, pop breakers, etc. In micro-hydro situations, they deal with that by running a hot water heater to drain away excess electricity. You have to always generate enough to supply the spike needs. You can rig the same water heater thing for biomass to electric, but plan on burning lots of wood that provides little value. There are some work arounds, like rigging a system that keeps your HVAC, frig, welder from turning on, say from midnight to 0600, so you don't have to generate peak power 24/7. 

2. Efficiency and danger - Steam powered ships operate at 600 to 1200 PSI, which requires superheated steam, which is invisible when there is a leak. Lower PSI results in much less power and efficiency and much more fuel to create the same power. You find leaks in a ship board system by running a broom handle over the pipes. When the wood is instantly sawed in half, you have found the leak. That leak will also saw people in half. Superheated steam is very dangerous. I was on the pier in Miami a few years ago when the last transatlantic liner, the Norway (she was my fave cruise ship, mostly because of her historical value), formerly the SS France, had an engine room explosion. from Wikipedia, "On 25 May 2003, after docking in Miami at 5:00 a.m., the Norway was seriously damaged by a boiler explosion[11] at 6:37 a.m. that killed eight crew members, and injured seventeen, as superheated steam flooded the boiler room, and blasted into crew quarters above through ruptured decking. None of the passengers were injured. The National Transportation Safety Board determined that "the probable cause of the boiler rupture on the Norway was the deficient boiler operation, maintenance, and inspection practices." So your choice is efficient use of wood resources and mortal danger or a big waste of resources and much more safety.

3. Lack of purpose built equipment. There is no doubt that a good welder can rig up some sort of system that would fire a boiler and have cold/wet steam (212 F) blow something like a wind turbine connected to a genny and have electricity. How long will that rigged up system last when none of the components are built to operate that way? Will it quit just by slowly grinding to a halt, or producing less and less electricity, or exploding? I talked to Chinese manufacturers of various system components, but could not put together a whole system with purpose built components.


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## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

I may be grossly over simplifying it, but here is the basic idea I had, his a smaller scale.
Years ago, I had a small water pump, primarily used to start a good syphon to drain a swilling pool. The pump was nothing more than a small turbine encased in plastic. It had an inlet and outlet that connected to garden hoses. On the flat side of the pump, there was a shaft that I put in the chuck of my cordless drill.
Now, same type of concept, slightly larger, but the shaft could have a pulley on it that eould connect it to a generator.
Think about a boiler on an airtight wood furnace. Once the water converts to steam, it passes thrugh the turbine and then thru a condenser. A series of pressure relief valves could keep it from building too much pressure and bursting. 
Thermostatic controls on the furnace control how much air enters the firebox, esentially controlling how hot the fire burns.
I know, to run directly you would have to be available 24/7 to testicles the foreboding as needed, but if it was just used to charge a battery bank it would be fine.

Is my idea too over simplified?


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

http://otherpower.com/steamengine.html


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> I may be grossly over simplifying it, but here is the basic idea I had, his a smaller scale.
> Years ago, I had a small water pump, primarily used to start a good syphon to drain a swilling pool. The pump was nothing more than a small turbine encased in plastic. It had an inlet and outlet that connected to garden hoses. On the flat side of the pump, there was a shaft that I put in the chuck of my cordless drill.
> Now, same type of concept, slightly larger, but the shaft could have a pulley on it that eould connect it to a generator.
> Think about a boiler on an airtight wood furnace. Once the water converts to steam, it passes thrugh the turbine and then thru a condenser. A series of pressure relief valves could keep it from building too much pressure and bursting.
> ...


DEKE01 posted lots of good info.

There's not enough energy in low pressure steam to make it worth while with a turbine. The more equipment involved in a process the more efficiency you lose. If you have an airtight furnace cooking wood you're better off using the gasification to drive an internal combustion engine or look into a steam engine which was used in the early days of centralized DC power usage.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Best to go the Gasification route IMHO.

Couple key points, 
Any Engine Can Be run on Wood Gas. (Even Diesel w/ mod)
Not as Dangerous as Steam.
Less loss (each step in a conversion process is a loss in power, also take into consideration that equipment being used is not 100% efficient.
Would gas has uses beyond engine fuel.

With a water cooled engine you can also do a co production setup where the heat from cooling the wood gas (needs cooling and filtration prior to being used.) and the Engine can be used. Making the setup much more efficient.

Thermodynamics plain and simple.

I have my gassifier about complete, really need to get my tanks filled as my welds are sloppy and I'm pretty sure I can braze them making it air tight where it needs.
Have the Engine, 4 cylinder mercruiser 120hp
Need the Gen head.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> I may be grossly over simplifying it, but here is the basic idea I had, his a smaller scale.
> Years ago, I had a small water pump, primarily used to start a good syphon to drain a swilling pool. The pump was nothing more than a small turbine encased in plastic. It had an inlet and outlet that connected to garden hoses. On the flat side of the pump, there was a shaft that I put in the chuck of my cordless drill.
> Now, same type of concept, slightly larger, but the shaft could have a pulley on it that eould connect it to a generator.
> Think about a boiler on an airtight wood furnace. Once the water converts to steam, it passes thrugh the turbine and then thru a condenser. A series of pressure relief valves could keep it from building too much pressure and bursting.
> ...



The most simple system: Buy an efficient wood stove. Put a big tea kettle on top. Rig a waterwheel type turbine, not as efficient as a modern fan turbine but much easier to home build, to run off the steam stream from the kettle Connect the water wheel to a very small genny via fan belts and pulleys. I guarantee it can be made to generate electricity on a hobby basis. What I seriously doubt is that it will ever create something that makes enough electricity to justify its cost in terms of equipment and labor to cut wood and feed the fire. 

A big problem with this system is replacing the water in the tea kettle on a continuous basis. It will also be a low single digit thermal efficiency converter of wood energy to electric energy. 

What you probably don't want to do is create a condensing system. That requires more equipment and a means of cooling. If you have a stream nearby to carry away waste heat, the condensing system will work. If you are cooling to atmosphere, you are going to have a tough time cooling it enough to keep the system operating; back pressure will build up. 

If you have a condenser or not, you still have to create a fresh water feed system to replace the water in the boiler.


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## nosqrls (Jun 9, 2012)

If you want a lp turbine look no further than a turbocharger.Remove compressor housing and replace with generator. Then you need a governor. Most can take upto 120 psi. then all you need is a condenser to recover the water. T he bigger the turbo the more hp it will develop. and they can take 1300 degrees. I would recommend a moister seperater on boiler water hammer can do damage. Turbo will need lubrication.
Compressor on turbos can take 30 hp to drive at 30 psi boost . But a gear reduction will be needed 100,000 rpm generators don't like. This is all info not saying do it. Just that it can be done.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

efficiency is the problem here. Sure you can make steam from burning wood. Steam can turn a turbine or run a steam engine. But you'd need a half of a pickup truck load of wood each day, just to run a 5K generator. Plus spend the day stoking the fire.
Wind is unreliable, but it is free.
Co-generation would reduce the costs to your plan. Build the boiler in a greenhouse and use the heat you waste to heat your plants. Run the waste steam through the floors of your house to heat it. Same suggestion to those thinking of wood gas powered engine to turn a generator.


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## pinkdex (Jan 5, 2014)

Thanks for all the well-thought out responses! I appreciate especially the critics who were able to back up their criticism with a scad of evidence instead of just throwing negativity around.

I did not know that wood gasification --> power had so many advantages over the steam approach. Also, thanks for the educated post about Turbines DEKE01, that was great! I am learning a lot from this thread! 

I will have to consider gasification and steam engines more strongly over turbines, as the precise maintenance for making a steam turbine is very unforgiving, as well as the dynamics of running the steam turbine itself. Good news!

Great stuff guys!


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

You not only limited to wood either, lots of things can be turned into gas.

Part of my plan here is lay in a few ton of coal. 

The other is to have a few of the tree services dump chips and also make use of the wood shop waste and sometime in the future the wood mill also.

Don't hold your breath I move slow! mostly a money thing.
The gassifer is all from scrap, the engine was gleaned from a old pleasure craft (Free).
the generator heads gonna cost though...


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

I've been working on a looped system off and on for the last few years. I have built a boiler and working steam engine. This was all built out of scrap I had laying around or could get for free. 




It did make about 40 amps at 12 volts. I am looking for 100 + amps for it to be worthwhile. The idea was to get my heat and hot water from the waste steam after the engine.

Since those pictures were taken I have played with different ideas. Now I have a new boiler mostly built. The fire box is together and I have all the parts except the flue tubes for the boiler itself. 

One of these days I will finish this project but when is anybodies guess.

Larry


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

I would think one could do some thing like a the old steam train or steam tractor, and use a recipating steam engine, that would run a small, alternator or generator, 
I realize that the efficiency would most likely be low, and it is 1800's technology and it worked in the past I do not see why it would not work today, 

My wife's grandfather was a steam wizard, he ran the old steam tractors and engines, threshed wheat and so on, and built a small steam tractor, and had a few boilers and some steam motors on the farm, 

I think it would be a lot of work and the efficiency most like would be low, but it should work, 

Lindsay Publications at one time sold a lot of steam books, but I see they have shut down, and a few other are selling out there inventory, http://www.youroldtimebookstore.com/category-s/1477.htm

they had a book on how to design a steam engine (train), and it was from the ground up, "Modern Locomotive Construction" 1892 ( ones Lindsay Publications had reprinted were wonderful in quality).
http://www.amazon.com/Modern-locomotive-construction-Jacob-Arnold/dp/1559181443 or

http://books.google.com/books?id=ufFm8xoUO40C&pg=PA206&lpg=PA206&dq=%22Modern+Locomotive+Construction%22+1892&source=bl&ots=0QmHcu8jGf&sig=FQhcGAqwT7f819AYF2r15fxv6i8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mVLLUvP1BsiHqAG1t4CoAg&ved=0CFEQ6AEwCg#v=onepage&q=%22Modern%20Locomotive%20Construction%22%201892&f=false
the other one is "Layout for Boilermakers"
1918.
I can not find this exacte one, but do a Google search and there are some on line copies of later editions


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

If you choose to work with steam or super heated water there is extreme danger, 
this old watts regulator film show and explains some of the danger, when a break or release, happens the superheated water, turn to a gas on decompression, thus creating a massive amount of power, 

so use caution and think and have muliplital safety features.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hEmFn5mTdQ[/ame]


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

Since I see so many worry about the dangers of steam I thought I would toss this out. 

One gallon of water = 1500 cubic feet of steam. 

It may be one cubic foot of water = 1500 cubic foot of steam. 

But either way you can see the point ( Theres a whole lot of power there ) of course its dangerous. So is you car, coffee pot, hair drier etc. 

But its a lot of fun too!

Larry


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## Wylie Kyote (Dec 1, 2009)

TnAndy said:


> ANYway, the Florida company:
> 
> They sold a package plant, consisting of a big dumpster deal ( with ceramic coated side/bottom.....sorta like fire brick in a wood stove ) was a steam generator.
> 
> ...


Saw those units on TV (Australia) a few months ago. I think they had one in Brazil, serving the medical, dental clinics and other emergency services in a remote region. It was bigger than a VW Kombi van and looked like it was doing a great job supplying power. Looked ideal for off-grid or a SHTF bunker system.

Wylie


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2014)

I looked at this long and hard a couple years ago. No doubt that it works, and seems easy to make. I am sure the power plant for this could be adapted for anything. 

Construction of a Simplified Wood Gas Generator for Fueling Internal Combustion Engines in a Petroleum Emergency


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Not knocking steam, its been a interest for some time.

But I also know you want to be careful.

2 cycle engines are a good choice for a prime mover, though there are a few considerations you want to address, main one comes to me that you need to insulate the cylinder and feed/exhaust. 

I can tell you they move pretty good at a low pressure, just get a old weed wacker and in place of the spark plug put a quick connect and hook up the compressor.

you also want to limit the pressure to just the power stroke. seen a couple ways to do that. 

the other is you need to incorporate a oiler. 

Just off the top of my head...

My vote for wood gas is based on economy. 

Though a very well designed steam system could be very close in actual running economy, but I still question the equipment cost.


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## CJ (May 10, 2002)

You are welcome to contact my husband about this Pindex, he's also a mechanical engineer and works as a senior design engineer at nuclear plants... this is his intent for the bulk of our power (with some solar as well) for our home we plan on building hopefully this summer. I'm sure he'd enjoy discussing this with you and tossing around ideas together. Send me a PM and I'll give you his email address.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I've been told the DOD has free plans for a wood powered generator.

Mother Earth News had an article back in the 70's that showed a wood powered pickup.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2014)

The link I posted above is to the FEMA approved plans, from 1989. I don't know of any newer ones.

Incidentally, this is a blueprint to produce wood gas, that would be burned in a tractor engine. You still have to have an engine. I'd think the old 2 cylinder "johnny popper" engines would be ideal.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Those Fema plans are OK gets the Basics across, but the Design is pretty rudimentary.

Lots of stuff on Youtube and all over the net anymore. Well worth a little study.

I really like what Wayne Keith is up to, one of the First guys pushing woodgas. 

Love his sawmill too!

Steam or wood gas both have their problems... 

Both have advantages in different situations.

In life there is no absolute.

Only the Best choice at the time.

What looks good on paper doesn't always work out to be practical.


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## Jennleepres (Sep 18, 2013)

To attempt such a project without any knowledge of thermodynamics, heat rates, btu's, and latent heat of evaporation (and that's just the tip of an iceberg)....would probably end in failure and alot of money down the drain.


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