# How many of you REALLY believe in TEOTWAWKI?



## Guest (Mar 27, 2009)

You know, as in post apocalyptic or some such.

I'm just curious. :shrug:


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## kitaye (Sep 19, 2005)

I do, but not in my lifetime. In my lifetime I'm more worried about the standard 2 week to 6 month troubles.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

It's going to happen soon.


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

I do. Since we are trillions in debt and most of it too China, there's no telling what might happen in the future. Bad thing about it is that it maybe more catostraphic to our kids and grandkids then to us.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

I think in our fragile existence it is possible any day, but at the same time could be years, or not in our lifetime. In the meantime those of us who prepare might seem paranoid if nothing happens. I would rather be prepared.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

Like most things such as Thunderbirds and ghosts.. I believe in the possibility of TEOTWAWKI.


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## Henry (Mar 1, 2006)

I think modern society is very fragile. Just look at how little it took to almost [the verdict is still not in] bring our financial system to ruin. If we get a truly global catastrophic event things will disintegrate faster than most can comprehend. The thing about world catastrophes is they are rare but the kicker is there are many possible scenarios. It could be asteroid, earthquake, volcano's, massive weather change so no food and the list goes on. I think it is stupid to not recognize the potential problems and probable wars after the fact. Being prepared is just the same as some city person buying insurance. They are betting something will happen. We are not throwing our money away to some big corp but rather saving for a rainy day. Seems much saner to me.


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## tn_junk (Nov 28, 2006)

TEOTWAWKI has already happened. The last year's financial debacle, and the steps being taken now to try and "fix" this mess, have forever changed our country and our lives. Not bashing Bush. Not saying Obama is wrong. Just saying that, IMHO, we have started down the long slide toward a form of socialization. I think this is what happens. Not an earthquake, or asteroid, or multiple volcano's, but a significant change in the world's power structure, and the financial security we all have cherished for years. This change will open the door for much wider, more violent, unrest and uprisings throughout the world.

alan


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

I have always wondered why the United States is not mentioned in the biblical prophecies of the end times, and I have heard biblical scholars wonder the same thing. They have said either we simply no longer exist as a nation, or we are no longer relevant on the world scene. I didn't think this could ever happen during our lifetime, but I believe the demise of the US as a nation will be happening sooner rather than later.

Will it be terrorism? Financial collapse? Plague? You know recently some Al Queda members accidentally infected themselves when they were trying to weaponize it, as seen here http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2146286.ece

As a nation, we are in a downward spiral right now, and there is no longer a system of checks and balances in the government, as republicans are no longer necessary for legislation to pass.

So TEOTWAWKI, is a real possibility. A 2-6 month disruption is a probability.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

ladycat said:


> You know, as in post apocalyptic or some such.
> 
> I'm just curious. :shrug:


I think you first need to define TEOTWAWKI. That term gets applied to everything from a tornado to a comet impact. For some people TEOTWAWKI is loosing a job, some a home, some alien invasions. Is it a term for personal misfortune, wide scale disaster or mutated zombies roaming the earth eating peoples brains to survive?


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## Eagle_and_hawk (Nov 22, 2008)

I think we already may be starting down that road of TEOTWAWKI. It may be a long depression, lasting much longer than the post stock market crash of '29. Or it could get much worse and turn the US into a 3rd world country. If so, it may not recover in some of our lifetimes. 

As others have pointed out before, the majority of the modern cilvilization in the US, does not know how to survive. When the last depression occured, people were still living more off the land and had survival skills. Now days, if the electricity goes off for a couple of hours, people really don't know what to do with themselves. 

I have told my wife, that a good example was the gas shortage last summer in Atlanta when the pipelines were shut down. People were up 24 hours a day, driving around trying to top off their 7/8 full gas tanks, and some of the heated discussions at the pumps when people needed to get gas. I have ask her, what do you think would happen if the supply chain had cut off the food supply to Atlanta? 

As TN_junk express, it will be of mankinds doings, not a natual disaster. There was one quote in the original Terminator movie that always comes to mind when I think about these things: John Connor ask Arnold, "We are not going to make it, are we, mankind that is?" His reply was "It's in your nature to destroy yourselves".


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## soulsurvivor (Jul 4, 2004)

I think it's left up to an individual as to what would define the end of their world. Everyone has their own thought on survival and what it would demand from them to protect themselves and their family. With that, all the info is considered and plans are made in trying to prepare for the most likely scenario. That prep is going to be different for each one. 

Within what's left of my lifetime here, I honestly think Yellowstone is going to erupt. With that is the possibility of a nationwide cover of volcanic ash that would make it difficult to grow and supply food. If FEMA/federal government is involved in the recovery, I hope that's done from a position of support rather than authority. I've not seen much good from FEMA.


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

I believe that there will be major changes in how people live most certainly within my childrens' lifetime, probably within my lifetime. The extent of the changes? Who knows. I'm a Christian and think that Common Tator hit the nail on the head. My hope is that the change is a slow, gradual process but there is certainly the possibility of quick, step-function changes.


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## Sam_Luna (Nov 16, 2008)

Gary in ohio said:


> I think you first need to define TEOTWAWKI. That term gets applied to everything from a tornado to a comet impact. For some people TEOTWAWKI is loosing a job, some a home, some alien invasions. Is it a term for personal misfortune, wide scale disaster or mutated zombies roaming the earth eating peoples brains to survive?


Well said Gary!


TEOTWAWKI is a number of things ranging from the sublime to the extraordinary. It could happen in a nanosecond from a solar flare, or it could be an unexplainable slow spread of sterility across the globe. 

At some point it will happen, as Kansas sang âNothing lasts forever but the earth and skyâ


Sam


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## virtualco (Feb 3, 2006)

It is a fallacy to think that bad things can never happen to us (United States). History is rife with tyrants, dictators, war, takeovers, coups, you name it. Our history has had the Revolutionary War, and the Civil War and maybe others I am not mentioning. So you think it can't happen to us?

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money (generous gifts) from the public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

Alexander Fraser Tytler


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2009)

virtualco said:


> It is a fallacy to think that bad things can never happen to us (United States).


I KNOW something bad is going to happen. I just don't know what it is, or when.


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## mamita (May 19, 2008)

I believe true mass destruction would only come about via something like Adophis (not sure I'm remembering the spelling) meteor due to hit earth that is what?....something like 8 miles wide....estimated time to hit, something like 2036. now, in THAT scenerio, it won't matter who preps for what. but otherwise, economic depression seems more at the immediate future. THAT is what I prep for. but...who knows who could have a happy trigger finger on any nuke bomb. and if by some stretch of my imagination I survive that little ditty, guess it won't hurt to have those preps handy then either. providing I somehow know they are still okey dokey and all. 

financial woes can eventually be corrected, but until it all smoothes out again.....I still think it's the wise person that preps to keep their family afloat.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2009)

*How many of you REALLY believe in TEOTWAWKI?*

Well, as others have noted the question is too vague to give a short answer.

I certainly believe that major, catastrophic events can happen that could severely try, even collapse, our government and society. Some so severe that they really cannot be prepped against. 

But each one - individually - is of sufficiently low probability that I don't lose sleep over them unless I'm having another one of those dreams again.

Collectively on the other hand things begin to change. Take a sufficiently large number of low probability scenarios ranging from bad to catastrophic and the chance that at least one of them will occur in my life time begins to grow large enough to really concern me.

Which is why I prep.

Fortunately pretty much all of those scenarios share about 90% of the same preps in common so if I can cover those I'm good to go for most things with all of them. Anything more than that requires careful scrutiny of individual scenarios to determine whether there is sufficient probability of them occurring to justify expending my time and resources on the 10% of specialized preps a given scenario would require.

Get prepped, stay prepped, then get on with your life. A person can worry themselves to death over this stuff and that's ain't no way to live.

.....Alan.


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## Elizabeth (Jun 4, 2002)

I don't think that our current economic situation rates as a TEOTWAWKI scenario. I believe that a true TEOTWAWKI will be much more catastrophic and will affect a much greater percentage of the population.

But, I also believe in the possibility of TEOTWAWKI. I don't have any particular event in mind- it might be the result of several smaller events combining. So, we prep for - whatever might come our way.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I do not.

Depression and natural disasters, yes.


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## RAHN (Mar 10, 2009)

TEOTWAWKI has happened with regularity in the world throughout history. If you were living in a village in Gaul when the Roman legions arrived it was TEOTWAWKI to you. Or in Europe during the plague, an American indian when the Europeans arrived, or an American citizen when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. All of these events marked a significant change (or end) of a way of life for people. It has always happened, it will happen again and it will always continue to happen. It is if/how you survive and adjust to it that is important. 

If you are talking about TEOTWAWKI as an event such as a comet striking or the sun going nova, then certainly- not much to prep for there! Otherwise, it is helpful to know that the world is in constant flux; it sucks to be here for it when a big change (what seems for the bad) comes around, but for those that survive and adapt there is usually a boom period afterwards.

The question isn't whether it will happen, the question is that when the economy/society/world as we know it has some level of drastic change for a period of time are you in as good a position and mindset as possible in order to survive and adapt.


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## 7.62mmFMJ (Nov 19, 2008)

We are nowhere near the end of the financial crisis and I believe that, if we are lucky, we get past this by only a major SHTF scenario. Keep an eye on farmers planting crops this spring - credit issues. The dollar could collapse under immense pressure. But we have enough means of production and people with the desire to produce to come out of it.

TEOTWAWKI could happen with a major war, a natural catastrophe (super volcano, meteor, etc.), or if the thin veneer of civil society that we have breaks down due to man-caused disasters. 

The SHTF scenario above could devolve if the financial issue gets to the point where the .gov can't meet its financial commitments, which are already extraordinary, and we are piling more on to it.


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## longshot38 (Dec 19, 2006)

the end of The World? eventually no telling when, best to prepare just in case.

the end of my world as i know/knew it, has happened a few times. like the arch bishop said at the memorial for the 17 killed in the helecopter crash on the 12 mar, "....life does go on...."

dean


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Common Tator said:


> I have always wondered why the United States is not mentioned in the biblical prophecies of the end times, and I have heard biblical scholars wonder the same thing. They have said either we simply no longer exist as a nation, or we are no longer relevant on the world scene. I didn't think this could ever happen during our lifetime, but I believe the demise of the US as a nation will be happening sooner rather than later.
> 
> Will it be terrorism? Financial collapse? Plague? You know recently some Al Queda members accidentally infected themselves when they were trying to weaponize it, as seen here http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2146286.ece
> 
> ...


I agree. Many theologists have tried to place the United States in end time prophecy, but in my opinion, their arguments don't hold up.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Sonshine said:


> I agree. Many theologists have tried to place the United States in end time prophecy, but in my opinion, their arguments don't hold up.


The reason the US isn't mentioned in the bible is the folks that wrote it thought the world was the middle east. They had no concept of how big the world actually is or things like the position of the sun in the sky, eclipses, or even simple things like where rain comes from.

Other societies new some of these things very early in history just not the full picture. Too bad. It would be intresting how they would have related to the modern questions of science and how it would have affected the scripture. Tho in some aspects it's better the way it is because one can look to the lesson trying to be conveyed rather than the literal text.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

As in apocalyptic end of the world scenarios -- not really, while I admit its a possibilty its a very small one. 

I believe more in being self sufficent, you never know when illness, layoffs, etc are coming along. I was laid off and out of work for over a year once -- we did just fine with what we had put by, both in the way of food and savings. 
I also think the world is headed to more of a 'Blade Runner' or 'Soylent Green' type of future rather than a Star Trek type of future and can forsee a time when big US cities look like big cities in India, Pakastan, etc with tens of thousands living on the streets not knowing where their next meal is coming from and with the mess in the financial world, I thinks its coming closer and closer.


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## Marie04 (Mar 3, 2008)

Rahn said it well... things have happened throughout history and it's TEOTWAWKI happens if you happen to be there at that time and place.. think hurricane Katrina. But do I believe in a post-apocolyptic end of the world? I do, according to Biblical prophesy.. The Bible says the world will burn up, and it will be the end of all things. It could happen tomorrow or centuries from now. Meanwhile, we aren't guaranteed anything in this world.. be prepared to a point, but not go overboard. My 2 cents.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

I figure that societies rise and fall... This is without question. The only question is when.

I sure hope it isn't soon.


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## Marie04 (Mar 3, 2008)

mnn2501, that's a good way to say it.. be self-sufficient and plan ahead, especially in good times so you can survive in bad times.


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## Hip_Shot_Hanna (Apr 2, 2005)

> The Peak Oil story was never about running out of oil. It was about the collapse of complex systems in a world economy faced by the prospect of no further oil-fueled growth. It was something of a shock to many that the first complex system to fail would be banking, but the process is obvious: no more growth means no more ability to pay interest on creditâ¦ end of story, as Tony Soprano used to say.
> 
> There was a popular theory among Peak Oilers the last decade that the world would enter a âbumpy plateauâ period when the global economy would get beaten down by Peak Oil, would then revive as âdemand destructionâ drove down oil prices, and would be beaten down again as oil prices shot up in response â with serial repetitions of the cycle, each beat-down taking economies lower â the only imaginable outcome being some sort of quiet homeostasis. This scenario did not play out as expected. It was predicated on a mistaken assumption that all systems would retain some kind of operational resilience while ratcheting down. Anyway, the banking system was mortally wounded in the first go-round and the behemoth is dying hard.
> 
> The last desperate act of the banking system in the face of Peak Oilâs no-more-growth equation was to engineer species of tradable securities that could produce wealth out of thin air rather than productive activity. This was the alphabet soup of algorithm-derived frauds with vague and confounding names such as credit default swaps (CDSs), collateralized debt obligations (CDOs), structured investment vehicles (SIVs), and, of course, the basic filler, mortgage backed securities. The banking system is now choking to death on these delicacies.


 http://www.dailyreckoning.com/peak-oil-whats-next/

I found this and it sums it up quite well , read the coments on the botom , the one from the Nebraska farmers wife is very telling .


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## Ode (Sep 20, 2006)

Do I believe in it? Yes I do. But there is just no way to predict what will happen, really. It could be anything, from a gamma ray burst from a nearby supernova to an impact event to a world-wide plague. It could be anything, which really means there is no effective way to plan for, and prepare for such events. 

I think the question being asked though was if any of us believe in TEOTWAWKI, and if we believe it will happen in our lives, though it wasn't stated that way. And that is a tough one, because probability clearly points out the fact that it *will* happen someday, unquestionably. But there is no way to even begin to predict with any sort of accuracy the chance of anything that huge happening in our individual lifetimes. 

The next question to ask then, is if an unsurvivable event is going to happen someday how do we prepare to try and survive it? We can't, unless we progress enough to have some way to escape the earth and find a new home elsewhere in the universe. And that is pretty much not going to happen during our lifetimes unless aliens (the outer space kind) land and take pity on us, or something.

So I prepare for what I can prepare for, and try not to think of the rest unless I am reading a really good sci-fi book. Some things you cannot ever prep for, so there is no use in even worrying about them happening. I have to say that I am pretty sure there will not be any actual zombies though, probably.


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## Marie04 (Mar 3, 2008)

Good post, Ode. If the unsurvivable happens, I'm not going to worry about how to stay alive. What will be will be.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2009)

Ode said:


> Do I believe in it? Yes I do. But there is just no way to predict what will happen, really. It could be anything, from a gamma ray burst from a nearby supernova to an impact event to a world-wide plague. It could be anything, which really means there is no effective way to plan for, and prepare for such events.


 Your very first assumption is incorrect.

.....Alan.


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## two_barking_dogs (Sep 17, 2002)

TEOTWAWKI means different things to different people. 

Is it going to be like in the movie Mad Max or is it going to be like the movie the Road Warrior. 

The Road Warrior was a much more apocalyptic movie where society had collapsed and the remaining people were just looking for safety. Bands of MZB's waited in the countryside to rape, kill, etc. I'm not expecting to see this.

In Mad Max people still had jobs and took vacations. Society was on a downward slide due to lack of resources and a depression type economy. Crime overwhelmed law enforcement and thus the population.

My vote is that we will see Mad Max within our lifetimes. Society seems to have taken a turn for the worse. Government programs which support income redistributions seems to have created an underclass who feels entitled to all of the latest and greatest. The government has also decided to selectivity enforce some of the laws allowing criminal behavior to be acceptable. Also criminal gangs fueled mostly from drugs have gotten stronger and larger and can use their drug profits to insulate their leaders from the law.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

Mad max is happening...have you seen detroit lately? and gary, my neighbor too, even worse.


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## julieq (Oct 12, 2008)

As a Christian, I am in total agreement with Common Tator. Except in my mind, a mere 3 to 6 month disruption would be a relief. DH and I believe it will be much worse than that and definitely in our lifetimes.


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## diane (May 4, 2002)

As others have said before me, it really depends on the person and what they actually think the term means. Times change gradually and times change suddenly. Having been a prepper all my life, I was more prepared than some when my "world" changed abruptly when my husband died. His sickness, death and burial cost me most of my savings and his death resulted in me losing health insurance and 2/3 of my planned retirement income. Had I not been a prepper, that could have been catastrophic. Still could be if I get sick before August of this year when I will qualify for Medicare.

This world we are living in is very different than the world I was born into. Different values, different lifestyles, all different technology..........well, basically very little is the same. So, for me, TEOTWAWKI has been a slow gradual thing. The erosion of freedoms has been huge. How I use my land, how I sell or don't sell my land, what I can build, etc. etc. etc. without end. For some that is progress and security. I hate it and have no desire to do much to prolong my life to watch a further decline.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

NickieL said:


> Mad max is happening...have you seen detroit lately? and gary, my neighbor too, even worse.


When you mention Detroit, I think of Robocop. A crumbling city, corrupt government, corporate contracted control of everything including the police. As a corporate employee, you don't have to support the people and obey the law. You just have to do what the CEO directs to ensure profits flow the right way.

That's the direction I see things going.

Whole neighborhoods evicted to make way for more profitable corporate projects. A greater divide between the haves and have nots.

---------------------------
Clarence Boddicker: I work for Dick Jones! Dick Jones! He's the Number Two Guy at OCP. OCP runs the cops. 
[Robocop grabs his throat] 
Clarence Boddicker: You're a cop. 
[Robocop's program intervenes to prevent him from killing Clarence in cold blood. He releases Clarence from his grasp] 
RoboCop: Yes, I am a cop.


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## Razorback21 (May 13, 2003)

We are in for some type of change: The question is what type of change? I think most folks on here are pretty sure that life will not be economically better in the near term and I am inclined to agree with them, based on how our government is trying to get us out of this financial mess we are in. My concerns don't really center about the unforeseen, but things that can be foreseen, namely, the collapse of the bond market and the dollar. We are prepping for that type of scenario, for that is the most likely outcome of all this bailout mania.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

I believe that the current failing of the US economy is the doorway to TEOTWAWKI...It IMO will be the catalyst that allows something worse to befall this nation...it in itself will not be the end.. the unwinding and lowering of standards will continue for the next 3-4 years...we will be so much in disarray and chaos by then that we as a nation will be open to much more end of our world scenarios and we will now be powerless to stop them...for awhile things will look like they do now.. and the slowness of the unraveling will not create alarm immediately.. but the slow deterioration of our standards will be the beginning of the end... BTW... I also believe that nothing we can do will stop this meltdown... however, on an indivdual level we can prep to soften the impact...so that is why we do... but really really bad things are coming IMo...and for that I prepare spiritually...


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

NickieL said:


> Mad max is happening...have you seen detroit lately? and gary, my neighbor too, even worse.












I keep thinking for the TV show "Survivor", that they should send the group/ tribes to deepest, darkest, Detroit for 3 months, and then see who is left!!! Having grown up in Detroit and since I still have family there, I visit once or twice a year. 

Getting ready to go out in public - my basic combat load for Detroit..










I legally fly with my firearms and ammunition in my checked baggage. I wonder why Michigan will honor any other state's CCW licenses/ permits????

Living on the Cascadia Subduction Earthquake Zone, I know that we could rock and roll at any time with no warning what so ever!!!!!! That definately would end the world as we know it here up here, I betcha!! The authorities do try to give some warnings for blizzards, floods, hurricanes, fires, tornadoes, tsunamis, etc.. But no such possible warning device for Earthquakes has to be devised/ constructed yet!!!

We did a Tsunami Warning Drill (multi-agency) here on Wednesday Morning. I was the local city hall sitting in my truck full of radios and covered with antennas..

*Tsunami warning drill coming to the coast Wednesday
*
http://www.times-standard.com/ci_11983231?IADID=Search-www.times-standard.com-www.times-standard.com

Luckily, I live at 1,800 feet in elevation........ So it would have to be one heck of a wave ot get me, dude!!!

http://www.times-standard.com/opinion/ci_12000266

_Tsunami warnings could make the difference
The Times-Standard
Posted: 03/26/2009 01:30:26 AM PDT


Kudos to all the people who were involved with the tsunami warning test that took place in Humboldt, Mendocino and Del Norte counties Wednesday. 
Such dry runs are pivotal to making sure that when -- not if -- a tsunami strikes, we are well prepared to heed the dangers and take the proper steps to stay alive. 

It has been many years in the making, this warning system, and is the result of many different people working to make it a reality. Now, if a tsunami were to strike, most people would either know immediately what to do, or would soon be informed of the proper steps by the myriad warning systems in place. 

In an area as seismically active as Humboldt County, living as close as we do to the Cascadia Subduction Zone, it is incumbent upon us to be knowledgeable and prepared. 

In addition to knowing whether you live in a tsunami zone, it's also recommended that you keep an earthquake kit on hand, allowing you and yours to live free of outside support for several days. When tragedy strikes, we will realistically be cut off for several days before aid makes its way to us, and being prepared could make the difference between life and death.
_

Then living right above the beach up in the hills, I have to worry about a possible invasion, like they did from the Japanese in 1941... Enemy Paratroopers, armored landing craft, pre-assault artillery barrages, etc... Do I haver to worry about forming a Guerilla Resistance force, to harass the invaders??? 

One never knows what could happen. I have multiple insurance policies, and they all aren't with an insurance agent.. I guess that by my having been young and foolish and joining the US Marine Corps to escape from Detroit, has paid off in more ways than one!! I figured that the Marine Corps would at least issue me a weapon and teach me how to use it accurately, while I was being fired at... 

Safe and accurate firing of a weapon is a skill that I have been more than happy, to pass along to others. This allows them to be able to defend themselves, even with kids in the household.. I have helped women that have never touched a "gun", to becoming proficient enough to qualify for their CCW licenses.

My little sister, who now is know as "Annie Oakley", and she gives me a run for the money when we go shootin'.....










And a friend 2 weeks ago.. She had never touched, let alone fired a weapon before that day.










Better to be ready, then one of the struggling victims in the aftermath of an event of whatever nature!!!!


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

I don't think there's any question it will, if you believe in the Bible. It says it will; in fact, the earth will be destroyed. 

Will that happen our life time? Probably not, but I think you'd either have to have been living in a cave or in denial, to not see "something" not good is around the corner.


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## vegascowgirl (Sep 19, 2004)

I believe it's possible. When? I don't know. How? Thats up to God. This world has gone through so much in the many years it has existed, that to think that everything will just continue as status quo is a bit naive.
Mostly I beleive in TEOTWA*I*KI (the end of the world as* I* know it). We all have our little worlds within our families and friends. It doesn't take meteors, nuclear wars or even the occasional zombie, to tear a persons world apart. A lost job (personally dealling with now), a natural disaster like storms, floods, or earthquakes; a major sickness in the family can all turn a families world upside down.


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## The Tin Mom (Dec 30, 2008)

Razorback21 said:


> We are in for some type of change: The question is what type of change? I think most folks on here are pretty sure that life will not be economically better in the near term and I am inclined to agree with them, based on how our government is trying to get us out of this financial mess we are in. My concerns don't really center about the unforeseen, but things that can be foreseen, namely, the collapse of the bond market and the dollar. We are prepping for that type of scenario, for that is the most likely outcome of all this bailout mania.


Very true! This is how we are prepping, too. I have really stepped things up lately.


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## denaliguide (Aug 30, 2008)

Sorry for your loss. Its sudden, jarring and rude, and everything spins out of control for some period of time.

That is why we train. Train ourselves, train our family, our friends....... To execute the drill we know we need to do, to cope with it. The only thing that is constant 
IS CHANGE ! 


Life changes before your very eyes every day. Incremental changes dont alarm people, anymore than the 1/10th of a F. Degree rise in the water that surrounds the frog in the pot. But he ends up boiled, not so??

What we thing are QUANTUM changes, are the result of the cumulative effect of incremental changes. Basically the rich of the world screw everyone else by the "Salami Slice Strategy" of whittling away little bits at a time, until the former Salami Owner has nothing but a string and empty skin.

The World as YOU KNEW it TEN YEARS AGO has ended and is gone forever.

The only question you need ask, is did you adjust successfully to the changes. Did you save your base metal pennies and buy Silver or Gold Maples from the Bank of Nova Scotia or Royal Bank every time you had enuf?

Do you have the means for security, warmth, signaling and subsistance?

If so, you do, then you have adjusted, just as a a football team would in facing a specific formation. Here the deal is, not what is happening so much, as how we adjust to it, prepare for it, create our social networks.

Yesterday is DEAD, we own today, and prepare for tomorrow.

DG




longshot38 said:


> the end of The World? eventually no telling when, best to prepare just in case.
> 
> the end of my world as i know/knew it, has happened a few times. like the arch bishop said at the memorial for the 17 killed in the helecopter crash on the 12 mar, "....life does go on...."
> 
> dean


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## ihedrick (May 15, 2005)

Definately, both from a biblical point and a "plain as day common sense" point. Just look at all the evil being done, scams, abuse of power by those in authority. TEOTWAWKI isn't in full swing; but I do think we've started down that path. It may go on for a couple generations, but it will happen.


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## Homesteadwi5 (Mar 16, 2008)

It's already started,the economy and all the job losses are the beginning,we've started down the slippery slope.


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## VT Chicklit (Mar 22, 2009)

I believe that we are in the End Times. The bible says that no one can know the day nor the hour but we are to be vigilent and prepare. . . and so I do.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I don't know about end times, or the end of the world. There's hundreds of "smaller" situations which could impact me personally, so I prepare. Luckily, my needs in almost every one of those situations are similar. Food, shelter, defense. 

What I see as becoming more and more likely is an armed revolution in the United States, or a splintering of our government. You think Detroit is bad? Detroit will look nice and safe compared to any of our major cities should they undergo what Sarajevo went through from 1992-1996.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

TEOTWAWKI, do I believe in it? Yup you betcha! Only a question of when. If the current economic disaster doesn't send everyone reeling back to third world nation status the advent of resource depletion certainly will. I think it is a very distinct possibility that people under the age of 50 will witness the end of the Oil age. 

My preps are two part, the physical and the mental. In some ways mental preps are more important in my opinion that the physical. Indians lived here for thousands of years and their preps consisted of a healthy body and knowledge. My biggest concern in a TEOTWAWKI situation are health issues. Most certainly any major health trouble would have only one outcome. 

Having talked to a few older folks that had fled Stalin, dealt with the Great Depression, and WWII I have come to the conclusion that a TEOTWAWKI situation means only one thing, it leads to a new way of living. Life goes on even if it seems the rest of the world isn't.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

TEOTWA...Most People Know It...

Current civilization is unsustainable. The almost free fuel source, that all human life is based on, is almost gone... Whenever there are ten people competing for the resources that'll sustain only one, bad things happen.

So, yes, I do believe in the concept of TEOTW. It potentially could be a return to the pre-industrial age.... as long as we survive the mad max stage (going from 6 billion people down to a few hundred million won't be peaceful... unless a pandemic hits fast and hard).

The question should be, do you believe something bad can happen... and then, will it? I know something bad Can happen... and must think, with all of the insane people in the world, it Will happen. It only takes one well placed maniac to get it all started, and then it'll feed upon itself.


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## Marie04 (Mar 3, 2008)

Texican, do you think that some of this upheaval can be blamed on the transition from the Industrial age to the Information/Technology age? Many of the Industrial jobs are no longer necessary, and that's painful, and cannot be avoided. Or maybe it's just another facet of the downward spiral that actually could be avoided.. I don't know. But change is inevitable, and with change people do get hurt, lose their jobs, must move to other areas, etc...


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Information/technology age? We haven't even transitioned out of the agricultural age yet. Human beings still eat! All those routers and switches and servers and desktops have to be manufactured SOMEWHERE, you know.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2009)

Ernie said:


> All those routers and switches and servers and desktops have to be manufactured SOMEWHERE, you know.


Yeah, probably in China or Thailand or Korea.


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## Marie04 (Mar 3, 2008)

Ernie said:


> Information/technology age? We haven't even transitioned out of the agricultural age yet. Human beings still eat! All those routers and switches and servers and desktops have to be manufactured SOMEWHERE, you know.


The Agricultural age ended when the majority of people no longer worked on farms as their occupation. The Industrial age - think manufacturing, using lots of labor. No longer needed due largely to technology.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I believe that sort of thinking is what has led us to this current debacle. 

Many Americans thought our country could transition entirely over to service-sector and "thinking" jobs. Unfortunately what they didn't realize is that we don't know how to think. We knew how to work. We lost that. 

Now people think their thoughts are so valuable that someone will pay them to sit around all day and produce them. As a (mostly) former knowledge worker, I'll tell you that the output of these thinking jobs doesn't equal the value that plops out of the hindquarters of my milk cow. Your average information technology worker is doing 60-80 hours per week. The industrial worker pulled down about 40. Even the old time farmers without "labor-saving" devices managed to find time to go fishing, play baseball, or spend time with their families. 

And here real soon America is about to get a reminder that you shouldn't neglect the agricultural age or outsource all of your important food-producing jobs to overseas ******* or whichever of the farmer's sons had the least college-potential and ambition.


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## Marie04 (Mar 3, 2008)

Ernie, I don't really see how this is subject to politics or NAFTA. Even without those interventions, life is not what it was in the 19th century and early 20th century, when people began moving from the farms to the cities to work in factories. This is what my own family did. Now those factory jobs are disappearing fast, and many would be going even if there was no such thing as outsourcing.

What is interesting is that there may be a return to agriculture once again. There definitely is more interest in making sure our food is safe, healthy, and accessible, and that prompts many people to return to growing their own food. At the same time, technology is causing big changes in the way we do things and in the way we communicate. This is causing a big upheaval, a revolution, if you will. Technology and service oriented rather than manufacturing. The world that our grandchildren grow up in will look much different than what we can even envision now, regardless of political or economic upheavals.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Marie04 said:


> Texican, do you think that some of this upheaval can be blamed on the transition from the Industrial age to the Information/Technology age? Many of the Industrial jobs are no longer necessary, and that's painful, and cannot be avoided. Or maybe it's just another facet of the downward spiral that actually could be avoided.. I don't know. But change is inevitable, and with change people do get hurt, lose their jobs, must move to other areas, etc...


The industrial age, fed by very inexpensive fossil fuels, allowed populations to explode. Without fossil fuels (coal, oil, natural gas) the industrial age wouldn't have happened. What good is a tractor going to do for you, if you have no fuel. Steam engines were a vast improvement over slave labor, but without a fuel other than wood, the countrysides would quickly have been denuded.

The information age is just another variation of the industrial age... industry still exists, just not where a lot of people would like it. Face it, most folks would prefer to make more money, in a climate controlled environement, than less money in an unheated furnace of a building.

It all falls apart without energy. We have no replacement available for cheap oil, especially when it comes to vitally important things like fuel for monster tractors, and fertilizer for the crops, and insecticides to prevent disasters. Some of us bemoan the industrial machine... I don't care for it, but I dread the fall of the beast... when the basis of big ag falls, human populations will necessarily drop, at the same rate. Victory gardens won't feed urban masses. 

I don't have a degree in biology, (geology and english/philosophy)... but I have studied ecology (deep ecology). Ecosystems can only support so much, and if too much pressure is put upon it, it adjusts... to us humans, that means starvation and disease.

I wouldn't worry so much about an EMP as I would a few bridges, a few pipelines, and all the refineries getting 'hit' by unfriendly people. The country goes a week or two without oil, we'd be in deep hockey...


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## denaliguide (Aug 30, 2008)

However the widespread corruption and shenanigans masks something.

When humans are free to pursue solutions and alternatives under rule of law, without the imposition of the ELITE Parasites, are amazing and make the society very resilient. This is also true now, and is operative in the GREY and BLACK Economies right NOW.

Likely the best thing would be a pandemic [ have we been primed for this], to qwkly reduce word population to semi-sustainable levels. Once that happens, we could qwkly DOUBLE the liveablity of this world by removing from it all who had personal worths of greater than 500 Million 2009 $USD DOLLARS per Nuclear Family. In otherwords, in a feudal fief the easiest way to Double the standard of living was to re-distribute the goods and lands of the LAND LORD. SINCE the Social Contract has been seriously and intentionally breeched by the Super-Rich in order to re-gain all that they shared with the rest of us, it would not be surprising to see something like this happen.
Basically the problem is MALDISTRIBUTION. Try living on $2.00 per family, and you will see what I mean.

Ya'll have fun now and fight nice, no kicking, eye-gouging or ear-biting.

DG





texican said:


> The industrial age, fed by very inexpensive fossil fuels, allowed populations to explode. Without fossil fuels (coal, oil, natural gas) the industrial age wouldn't have happened. What good is a tractor going to do for you, if you have no fuel. Steam engines were a vast improvement over slave labor, but without a fuel other than wood, the countrysides would quickly have been denuded.
> 
> The information age is just another variation of the industrial age... industry still exists, just not where a lot of people would like it. Face it, most folks would prefer to make more money, in a climate controlled environement, than less money in an unheated furnace of a building.
> 
> ...


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

denaliguide said:


> However the widespread corruption and shenanigans masks something.
> 
> When humans are free to pursue solutions and alternatives under rule of law, without the imposition of the ELITE Parasites, are amazing and make the society very resilient. This is also true now, and is operative in the GREY and BLACK Economies right NOW.
> 
> ...


I think, even in worker's paradises, the same old human nature dynamics still are in force... the powerful rise to the top, the weak sink to the bottom. Without enforced frontal lobotomies, I fear that human nature will win out. Redistributing or maldistributing may happen, but the rich/powerful will always have all they want.


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## denaliguide (Aug 30, 2008)

a fairly traditional book about Human Behavioral Conditiions - I think the Christians call it a "BIBLE", if I remember right. Lots of rules in there for ethical behaviors and even things that make a society run good like "JUBILEE" and such other concepts.

Should be required reading [ those parts ] for people who want to know why the world got screwed up from the over concentration of wealth.

And I mean just that, just the financial parts, and the ethical parts.

Ya can leave out whatever serious hardcase stuff the prophets said, and simply include only the kinda stuff Jesus said about how to relate to each other.

I wouldnt be one to convert anyone to anything, but much of what is said there, does work out in actual case studies.


Amazing ehh? I aint no pacifist either.......... LOL

DG




texican said:


> I think, even in worker's paradises, the same old human nature dynamics still are in force... the powerful rise to the top, the weak sink to the bottom. Without enforced frontal lobotomies, I fear that human nature will win out. Redistributing or maldistributing may happen, but the rich/powerful will always have all they want.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

From what I've read, even many of the people who lived during TEOTWATKI(as THEY knew it) didn't REALLY believe it was happening. Humans seem to have an infinite capacity for denial of reality. Even today, I find it funny when people talk about how "unlikely" it is for the Earth to be struck by a large object from space. Even the astronomers don't know whether a large chunk of rock is out there heading straight for us. There are already a "few" craters showing where the planet has been hit before. That tells me it can, and does happen.
That's just one example. We've lived with the possibility of nuclear war for about 60 years now, even though people have pretty much dismissed that possibility.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

This guy says it better than me... http://www.worldchangecafe.com/2009...s-49-percent-chance-of-civilization-collapse/

cheap oil = population explosion

expensive oil = population implosion

I think he's being very generous, having the population drop only to 1/7th.


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## ailsaek (Feb 7, 2007)

A.T. Hagan said:


> *How many of you REALLY believe in TEOTWAWKI?*
> 
> Well, as others have noted the question is too vague to give a short answer.
> 
> ...


Yes. Do I believe in Mad Max and the zombiepocalypse? No. Do I believe in "the end of the world as I know it"? Yes. Big stuff, small stuff, does it matter how many people's worlds end if yours has?

Of course, I do also try to prep for a few scenarios I find less likely too, cos one thing my life has proven is that it's possible for me to be wrong. (But I'm still not having a gun in the house until I can trust my son not to kill himself with it.)


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

i think we're very early in the financial crisis. i expect another decade of subpar stock market returns, massive job loss and corp bankruptcies, pension losses, store closings and commercial real estate losses, cities cranking up the taxes, etc.

but the real changes will be due to peak oil, which makes our suburban infrastructure obsolete and extremely expensive to maintain. And a likely war with China, (the likely rising power in the world) sometime in the next decade will also make for some huge changes. and the loss of the US dollar as the reserve currency of the world.

none of the above will wipe out humanity, it will just make life in the USA look like life in much of the rest of the world thru the rest of human history -- nasty brutish and short.

--sgl
--sgl


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## bookfarmer (Jan 1, 2009)

This thread came to mind last night while we were watching a PBS documentary about Jerusalem. That is certainly a city that has experienced millenia of TEOTWAWKI. I was particularly struck by the story of the Babylonian exile when the Babylonians slaughtered thousands and took the rest of the population back to Babylon as slaves. Somehow that makes some of the concerns expressed here seem relatively minor. IMHO.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

bookfarmer said:


> This thread came to mind last night while we were watching a PBS documentary about Jerusalem. That is certainly a city that has experienced millenia of TEOTWAWKI. I was particularly struck by the story of the Babylonian exile when the Babylonians slaughtered thousands and took the rest of the population back to Babylon as slaves. Somehow that makes some of the concerns expressed here seem relatively minor. IMHO.


I think those were just catastrophes...

of course, it's all just semantics, and what one believes TEOTWAWKI means.

To me, it means, the end of civilization. Mass starvation, pandemic diseases, war, wiping out pretty much everyone you know. >99% of the population gone... along with the skill/knowledge necessary to maintain the current standard of living. Not just a mere return to the pre-industrial age, but more of a return to pre-dark ages. Quite a few of us have skillsets which would ease the way back to some semblance of pre-industrial age civilization. But what happens if a disaster strikes and knocks out 'those' knowledgeable people. Face it, computer skills will be valueless, if you have to travel, by foot, a hundred miles to the next family. Does anyone even know how to make a computer, from raw materials, from scratch??? This world is full of specialists... generalists ( a person who can do pretty much everything) aren't in great demand.

Jerusalem has been conquered countless times... it's populations slaughtered, enslaved, etc. But, nothing changed from the year before it was conquered, to the year after. No great technological disasters befell it, that it couldn't rebuild, with simple manual labor (that everyone was familiar with). 

If Jerusalem fell today (Arabs and Jews get in a steel cage death match... enveloping the rest of the world), it could easily revert back to stone age (biblical) Jerusalem. 

My point is, at a certain point,(with a widespread human population thinning) there's not enough brainpower, tied with skills, to bring civilization back... at least not for years... ["Canticle for Liebowitz" comes to mind]

okay, I'll stop rambling now...


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## Marie04 (Mar 3, 2008)

Texican, if that's the definition then I don't want to be the 1% of the population who survives. Blech.


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