# Caitlyn Jenner may go back to being a man



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Sounds like his crazy meter may be getting back in plumb. He apparently has some regrets. I was once a man trapped in a woman's body too, but then I was born.

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...ardashian-biographer-claims.html?intcmp=hpbt4


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

poppy said:


> Sounds like his crazy meter may be getting back in plumb. He apparently has some regrets. I was once a man trapped in a woman's body too, but then I was born.
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...ardashian-biographer-claims.html?intcmp=hpbt4


Don't believe everything you read.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Who cares?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> Who cares?


Why did you open this thread and then post in it ? You cared enough to do both.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Why did you open this thread and then post in it ? You cared enough to do both.


I was wanting to draw out one of your sa remarks.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

painterswife said:


> Don't believe everything you read.


I'm sure you know more about him than those close to him and I can imagine your dismay if the story is true.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I don't care either way. Not my life.

They are already reporting that the story is false though.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sex-change-regret-claims-longtime-friend.html


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Yes I heard that today also that he is in DEEP Depression. And regrets making the change. LOL So I bet in a year or two he,itch, whatever will be back to a HE. Toucan't change what is biologically YOU FROM THE START without some or in this case Deep regrets in doing what it did.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

My cousin was Jenners roommate in College. Jenner left the farm when he hooked up with the Kardashian circus.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

poppy said:


> Sounds like his crazy meter may be getting back in plumb. He apparently has some regrets. I was once a man trapped in a woman's body too, but then I was born.
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...ardashian-biographer-claims.html?intcmp=hpbt4


Hope he doesnt blow his brains out before he figures out how to handle his feelings. He has fame and fortune to hang onto. I feel sorry for the welders son sent down this path. What does he have when he realizes this hormone therapy and self mutilation did not produce the bliss and happiness promised, and they are the same human being inside, regardless of what genitalia they now own.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

He never really transitioned. He took a few hormone shots and started wearing dresses, but never had his junk turned outside-in. I think it goes without saying that Jenner needs counseling. He evidently didn't think this thing all the way through.


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## flewism (Apr 2, 2007)

He/she has had (6) surgeries face & breasts.


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## homebody (Jan 24, 2005)

I wonder how many do this sort of thing and make it all public to try and make it more acceptable to society in general?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

There sure is a lot of talk about transgenders from people that say others are trying to push this agenda on them. I wonder why it keeps being discussed when it is so abhorrent to them?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

painterswife said:


> There sure is a lot of talk about transgenders from people that say others are trying to push this agenda on them. I wonder why it keeps being discussed when it is so abhorrent to them?


And in depth reading/research at that.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

thericeguy said:


> Hope he doesnt blow his brains out before he figures out how to handle his feelings. He has fame and fortune to hang onto. I feel sorry for the welders son sent down this path. What does he have when he realizes this hormone therapy and self mutilation did not produce the bliss and happiness promised, and they are the same human being inside, regardless of what genitalia they now own.


I feel sorry for the guy. He obviously has some mental issues but instead of those around him getting him the help he needed, they encouraged his behavior. That would not happen with most mental conditions. People look at some guy who says his dog tells him everything to do and openly realize he is mentally ill. Same with the guy who wears a Batman costume and self identifies as a super hero. For some reason, the far left sets sexual mental illness apart as a special. They call it cool, brave, and set him up as a hero by putting his picture on magazine covers. They did him no favors.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

homebody said:


> I wonder how many do this sort of thing and make it all public to try and make it more acceptable to society in general?


Admittedly, doing this helps him fit-in with the Kardashians a lot better.


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## homebody (Jan 24, 2005)

If anyone does this, they should certainly tell anybody they try to develop a close relationship with before emotions become involved. If I was single, dated a male for a while and THEN found out he used to be female, I would be very angry.


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## homebody (Jan 24, 2005)

People in general are interested in anything considere "abnormal". Doesn't mean people approve or disapprove unless they state it. Honesty should be paramount.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

They stated their disapproval quite often. Their honesty is not lacking. It is the fact that they are the ones driving this discussion even though they complain about it being thrown in their faces.


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## homebody (Jan 24, 2005)

I could care less what Jenner does. Does not affect me one whit. Does not look good as a man or woman, lol.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

homebody said:


> I could care less what Jenner does. Does not affect me one whit. Does not look good as a man or woman, lol.


Yet you are posting a thread about her.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

painterswife said:


> There sure is a lot of talk about transgenders from people that say others are trying to push this agenda on them. I wonder why it keeps being discussed when it is so abhorrent to them?


I would not use the word *"*abhorrent", I would use the word "travesty" in that those that care for this person are not using logic and compassion to assist with the misunderstanding that he might be having. The depression and other uncertainties are obviously a red flag here...


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Shine said:


> I would not use the word *"*abhorrent", I would use the word "travesty" in that those that care for this person are not using logic and compassion to assist with the misunderstanding that he might be having. The depression and other uncertainties are obviously a red flag here...


Either way many people that have negative feelings keep talking about it and bring it up.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Painter, people feel threatened and anxious. They are concerned some very badic ideals are being tested. Can we keep pervs out of restrooms and showers? Can we protect the safety of childrem best we can? Are we turning into a nationwide nudist colony? These are heavy thoughts, and quite frankly, I do not trust a government that tells an ex-wife to call the police once her stalker ex-husband is in the house and firing the gun, then they can do something about it. 

At least be reasonable enough to acknowledge those might be legitimate concerns, even if you conclude to override them.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

painterswife said:


> They stated their disapproval quite often. Their honesty is not lacking. It is the fact that they are the ones driving this discussion even though they complain about it being thrown in their faces.


Is it possible that you have it reversed? ...that we might be "forced" into the discussion because the situation is being forced upon us?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

thericeguy said:


> Painter, people feel threatened and anxious. They are concerned some very badic ideals are being tested. Can we keep pervs out of restrooms and showers? Can we protect the safety of childrem best we can? Are we turning into a nationwide nudist colony? These are heavy thoughts, and quite frankly, I do not trust a government that tells an ex-wife to call the police once her stalker ex-husband is in the house and firing the gun, then they can do something about it.
> 
> At least be reasonable enough to acknowledge those might be legitimate concerns, even if you conclude to override them.


I know some want to talk about it. Not a problem. I am asking why the same people who complain about it always being brought up are the ones that keep talking about it.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Shine said:


> Is it possible that you have it reversed? ...that we might be "forced" into the discussion because the situation is being forced upon us?


How are you forced into a discussion. Why does someone that complains on one hand that it is being forced on them then get into the conversation every chance they get?


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## homebody (Jan 24, 2005)

I haven't been talking about them before now. I have my thoughts/opinions but u seem to think u r assigned some type of superiority here. This is an equal playing field, u don't have an edge. I haven't stated my opinions so don't try and say I have. And I'll post here if I want, u don't own this forum. Also, for the record I've never wanted to have a penis nor have I ever wanted to kiss, fondle have any kind of sex with another woman. Could not be more straight. However anyone can assume what they want. Good thing we will never meet in person. Some of u make statements with the utter freedom of knowing this and are totally insulting. U are really brave on a forum, lol.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I have no reason to believe that Jenner is going to reverse her procedures but I do know that there's some negative feelings within the LGBT. She was more than happy to align with them when she felt she needed support but since she's become a household name, she's more or less abandoned them.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

poppy said:


> I'm sure you know more about him than those close to him and I can imagine your dismay if the story is true.


The ones that put out the story are also the ones trying to *sell books* about him and the Kardashians.

You're just helping spread the gossip


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

poppy said:


> I feel sorry for the guy.
> 
> *He obviously has some mental issues but instead of those around him getting him the help he needed, they encouraged his behavior. *
> 
> That would not happen with most mental conditions. People look at some guy who says his dog tells him everything to do and openly realize he is mentally ill. Same with the guy who wears a Batman costume and self identifies as a super hero. For some reason, the far left sets sexual mental illness apart as a special. They call it cool, brave, and set him up as a hero by putting his picture on magazine covers. They did him no favors.


You just described internet forums


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

painterswife said:


> How are you forced into a discussion. Why does someone that complains on one hand that it is being forced on them then get into the conversation every chance they get?


Too silly. What if you were force to wear combat boots with your dresses? What if you had an opportunity to discuss this situation?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Shine said:


> Is it possible that you have it reversed? ...that we might be "forced" into the discussion because the situation is being *forced* upon us?


So who's holding a gun on you now, *forcing *you to read and respond in a thread titled "Caitlyn Jenner....?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Shine said:


> Too silly. What if you were force to wear combat boots with your dresses? What if you had an opportunity to discuss this situation?


What do you *prefer* to wear with your dresses?


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

I saw an article about a story the BBC ran about a boy who was transgendering into a girl. "She" wanted a boy friend and boys found "her" attractive but for some strange reason they never called her again once they found out "she" had a penis. DUH. It was written like neither "she" nor the authors could understand why the boys dumped "her".


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

wr said:


> I have no reason to believe that Jenner is going to reverse her procedures but I do know that there's some negative feelings within the LGBT. She was more than happy to align with them when she felt she needed support but since she's become a household name, she's more or less abandoned them.


I have heard the same from my friends within the community. They really never got on the Caitlyn band wagon, as they felt she had no concept of the realities of being transgender in the real world.


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## homebody (Jan 24, 2005)

OK somewhere I read that the suicide rate was 20%. Is that the rate of people who want to change or the rate of those who already have?


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

homebody said:


> OK somewhere I read that the suicide rate was 20%. Is that the rate of people who want to change or the rate of those who already have?


That post misstated the fact. The suicide rate among transgenders is 20 TIMES that of society at large. 

The doctors promise then their transition will fix everything. Make everything right, just by fixing the mistake made at birth. When that doesnt happen, and the same feelings of somehow being wrong linger, they destroy themselves st sn alarming rate. Yet we are told if we love and accept them as whole people, we should send them down this path. 

Its time we exposed the people supporting this at the government level as pandering for votes and costing the lives of people.

Ask yourself, if a heart medicine had a death rate 20 times higher than any other medicine, would it be pulled off the market?


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## homebody (Jan 24, 2005)

thericeguy said:


> That post misstated the fact. The suicide rate among transgenders is 20 TIMES that of society at large.
> 
> The doctors promise then their transition will fix everything. Make everything right, just by fixing the mistake made at birth. When that doesnt happen, and the same feelings of somehow being wrong linger, they destroy themselves st sn alarming rate. Yet we are told if we love and accept them as whole people, we should send them down this path.
> 
> ...


Thank you, so would it be safe to assume that "they" are "unfulfilled, unhappy, dis-satisfied with being both male and female. So maybe they think that death is the only way to end it all? If not, then what other conclusion is logical?


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

homebody said:


> Thank you, so would it be safe to assume that "they" are "unfulfilled, unhappy, dis-satisfied with being both male and female. So maybe they think that death is the only way to end it all? If not, then what other conclusion is logical?


When people destroy themselves for any reason (combat veteran, lgbt, teen, prostitute, any reason at all), I feel we as a society should take a long hard look at the why. If a particular group of people, any group, is dispoportionately represented, it indicates a problem. Simply more of the same would be a terrible conclusion. 

We need to work on integrating and accepting trans, not giving them a bathroom. A bathroom access where society does not want them will solve nothing. How many more must die before we start to face real facts? Agenda. Death in the name of agenda is what I see.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

homebody said:


> Thank you, so would it be safe to assume that "they" are "unfulfilled, unhappy, dis-satisfied with being both male and female. So maybe they think that death is the only way to end it all? If not, then what other conclusion is logical?


The logical conclusion that is told here, by those logical, is because all those outside LGBT community discriminate against them.


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## homebody (Jan 24, 2005)

elevenpoint said:


> The logical conclusion that is told here, by those logical, is because all those outside LGBT community discriminate against them.


U kiddin, ain'tcha man? I've been discriminated against for the 17 long years I've lived in MO haven' killed myself or anyone yet. I just letum know (in round about way) that they can kiss my posterior. I'm too old and tired for the bs


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

elevenpoint said:


> The logical conclusion that is told here, by those logical, is because all those outside LGBT community discriminate against them.


As I asked earlier, can you please compare the suicide rates of slaves, Jews, current blacks and hispanics, Christians, Syrian refugees, middle east Christians being beheaded by the village, to that of trans, then come tell me it is because life is hard.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

thericeguy said:


> As I asked earlier, can you please compare the suicide rates of slaves, Jews, current blacks and hispanics, Christians, Syrian refugees, middle east Christians being beheaded by the village, to that of trans, then come tell me it is because life is hard.


I think we should compare veterans suicide rates, as much as I feel empathy for the trans community I am greatly concerned about veterans.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

no really said:


> I think we should compare veterans suicide rates, as much as I feel empathy for the trans community I am greatly concerned about veterans.


As I said, any group, any reason. I mean that literally.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

thericeguy said:


> *That post misstated the fact.* The suicide rate among transgenders is 20 TIMES that of society at large.
> 
> *The doctors promise then their transition will fix everything*. Make everything right, just by fixing the mistake made at birth. When that doesnt happen, and the same feelings of somehow being wrong linger, they destroy themselves st sn alarming rate. Yet we are told if we love and accept them as whole people, we should send them down this path.
> 
> ...


I believe the "20 times" claim is also false and is only supported by one old study from yet another anti-transgender/transsexual source.

The real figures are much closer to 10 times higher

No one "promises" them the surgery will fix all their problems.
That's just your hype



> Yet we are told if we *love and accept them as whole people*, we should send them down this path.


I suspect that would work better than calling them perverts or mentally ill, as is currently the most common reaction



> Transgender study looks at 'exceptionally high' suicide-attempt rate
> January 28, 2014|By Emily Alpert Reyes
> 
> A whopping 41% of people who are transgender or gender-nonconforming have attempted suicide sometime in their lives, nearly *nine times* the national average, according to a sweeping survey released three years ago.





> *Researchers wrote that being recognized as transgender by other people probably made them a target of more discrimination, putting them at greater risk -- a finding that echoes earlier research.*


http://articles.latimes.com/2014/ja...uicide-attempts-alarming-transgender-20140127


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

In over 90% of all suicides there is a diagnosed mental disorder.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

elevenpoint said:


> In over 90% of all suicides there is a diagnosed mental disorder.


There are a lot of un-diagnosed cases too


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

You seem to be right BBF. Its probably worse. If you look at suicide attempts, it gets staggering. 

http://www.vocativ.com/culture/lgbt/transgender-suicide/

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

You might want to pay attention to who did the study being referenced before you start screaming racist, bigot, or discriminator.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

thericeguy said:


> You seem to be right BBF. Its probably worse. If you look at suicide attempts, it gets staggering.
> 
> http://www.vocativ.com/culture/lgbt/transgender-suicide/
> 
> http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf


The attempts are what were 9 times higher, not the 20 times you claimed



> You might want to pay attention to who did the study being referenced before you start screaming racist, bigot, or discriminator.


It won't make your source less bigoted



> We need to work on integrating and accepting trans, not giving them a bathroom.


Telling them they are mentally ill perverts isn't "integrating and accepting", and studies show it contributes to the suicide rates. You're complaining about a problem you help cause. 

The link you posted says that suicide was due to bullying. It also confirms the 20 times higher claim is false.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

wr said:


> I have no reason to believe that Jenner is going to reverse her procedures but I do know that there's some negative feelings within the LGBT. She was more than happy to align with them when she felt she needed support but since she's become a household name, she's more or less abandoned them.


My sense was that the LGBT community had abandoned him/her after her Cruz endorsement. From what I've read, they've turned downright nasty toward him/her. I guess they didn't know he/she was a Republican. :shrug:


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Txsteader said:


> My sense was that the LGBT community had abandoned him/her after her Cruz endorsement. From what I've read, they've turned downright nasty toward him/her. I guess they didn't know he/she was a Republican. :shrug:



I don't go out of my way to follow the Kardashian circus and you may be correct. I've been told that she's make some backhanded negative comments about the community but it interests me so little that I haven't bothered to research.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

wr said:


> I don't go out of my way to follow the Kardashian circus and you may be correct. I've been told that she's make some backhanded negative comments about the community but it interests me so little that I haven't bothered to research.


I don't follow them either. Actually, I try to avoid seeing anything about them. 

But I happened to see an article after Jenner came out supporting Cruz. Democrats, and the LGBT community in particular, went absolutely bonkers.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I don't think that many people actually know any transgendered people and if the only one I was aware of was Jenner, I'd be concerned as well. 

The woman I know went through the process many years ago and a great deal of time was spent on ensuring that she was emotionally stable enough for the procedures and the whole process took years, simply because of psychological assessments and the cost because the surgeries were performed in Switzerland. She remains sane, well adjusted and happily married. 

I don't proclaim to know all the details of Jenner's medical history and perhaps I'm missing a lot but the whole thing seemed to come about quite quickly and if she is suffering from depression, as the media is suggesting, it seems to me that there should have been more evaluation done before any surgery commenced. 

I keep getting the feeling that things were a bit rushed because of media speculation.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

HDRider said:


> Who cares?





painterswife said:


> Why did you open this thread and then post in it ? You cared enough to do both.





painterswife said:


> I don't care either way. Not my life.





painterswife said:


> Why did you open this thread and then post in it ? You cared enough to do both.


Just sayin


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

I thought he was crossdressing before they got married and told Kris he was over it and it was behind him ?


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

He can put on a pair of jeans...no makeup...no high heels..back to Bruce.
But his issues are deeper.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

wr said:


> I don't think that many people actually know any transgendered people and if the only one I was aware of was Jenner, I'd be concerned as well.
> 
> The woman I know went through the process many years ago and a great deal of time was spent on ensuring that she was emotionally stable enough for the procedures and the whole process took years, simply because of psychological assessments and the cost because the surgeries were performed in Switzerland. She remains sane, well adjusted and happily married.
> 
> ...


What I worry is that in an agenda driven culture, young child 12ish years of age professes some feeling of being another gender, and its off to the races. Lets get those hormones going, plot the path, and by 5pm people have the childs transition to opposite sex laid out by age 21. 

Someone earlier posted some data suggesting that 70% of children who felt transgendered, when left alone, later did not. Lets all slow down.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

thericeguy said:


> What I worry is that in an agenda driven culture, young child 12ish years of age professes some feeling of being another gender, and its off to the races. Lets get those hormones going, plot the path, and by 5pm people have the childs transition to opposite sex laid out by age 21.
> 
> Someone earlier posted some data suggesting that 70% of children who felt transgendered, when left alone, later did not. Lets all slow down.


It's really none of your business what happens in someone else's family.

They get to make those decisions whether you happen to agree or not.

I don't think it's any worse than brainwashing them in some cult


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

thericeguy said:


> What I worry is that in an agenda driven culture, young child 12ish years of age professes some feeling of being another gender, and its off to the races. Lets get those hormones going, plot the path, and by 5pm people have the childs transition to opposite sex laid out by age 21.
> 
> 
> 
> Someone earlier posted some data suggesting that 70% of children who felt transgendered, when left alone, later did not. Lets all slow down.



I guess we're a bit different. I have a better understanding of a young person who progressively concludes they identify with another gender than a middle aged man who seems to suddenly decide life is better in heels. 

There is a lot that goes along with the suicide statistics and I suspect they'd be the same for gay kids. Their emotional stability depends a lot on how family and friends accept them.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

wr said:


> I guess we're a bit different. I have a better understanding of a young person who progressively concludes they identify with another gender than a middle aged man who seems to suddenly decide life is better in heels.
> 
> There is a lot that goes along with the suicide statistics and I suspect they'd be the same for gay kids. Their emotional stability depends a lot on how family and friends accept them.


I have argued for a stance similar to that. It is the acceptance and support that seems crucial to me, not hormones or even bathrooms really. Let things go where they may. It seems to me that there is a rush to action. That could be a bad perception on my part. Maybe doctors refuse hormone therapy until exhaustive psychological testing has been done. Why doesnt anyone talk about that stuff?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

thericeguy said:


> I have argued for a stance similar to that. It is the acceptance and support that seems crucial to me, not hormones or even bathrooms really. Let things go where they may. It seems to me that there is a rush to action. That could be a bad perception on my part. Maybe doctors refuse hormone therapy until exhaustive psychological testing has been done. Why doesnt anyone talk about that stuff?


It is talked about lots. Just not here where the first response is you are mentally ill.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

thericeguy said:


> I have argued for a stance similar to that. It is the acceptance and support that seems crucial to me, not hormones or even bathrooms really. Let things go where they may. It seems to me that there is a rush to action. That could be a bad perception on my part. Maybe doctors refuse hormone therapy until exhaustive psychological testing has been done. Why doesnt anyone talk about that stuff?



I'm certainly open to discussion but can't see how kids will benefit from adults simply dismissing their beliefs either. 

I don't look at gay or transgender kids as wrong or mentally ill but it seems to me that the whole thing needs to be viewed with an open mind. It is my understanding that there is a long process before hormone therapy begins but perhaps there needs to be some established protocol in that area.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

thericeguy said:


> I have argued for a stance similar to that. It is the acceptance and support that seems crucial to me, not hormones or even bathrooms really. Let things go where they may. It seems to me that there is a rush to action. That could be a bad perception on my part. Maybe doctors refuse hormone therapy until exhaustive psychological testing has been done. *Why doesnt anyone talk about that stuff?*


It's been mentioned lots of times, but you're so busy running down new rabbit trails you don't pay attention to anyone other than yourself


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

thericeguy said:


> I have argued for a stance similar to that. It is the acceptance and support that seems crucial to me, not hormones or even bathrooms really. Let things go where they may. It seems to me that there is a rush to action. That could be a bad perception on my part. Maybe doctors refuse hormone therapy until exhaustive psychological testing has been done. Why doesnt anyone talk about that stuff?


Because as soon as anything that is mentioned about a mental health issue pertaining to tg, it turns into the Christian, God, religion, etc., bash...you seen that? How all are delusional?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

thericeguy said:


> I have argued for a stance similar to that. It is the acceptance and support that seems crucial to me, not hormones or even bathrooms really. Let things go where they may. It seems to me that there is a rush to action. That could be a bad perception on my part. Maybe doctors refuse hormone therapy until exhaustive psychological testing has been done. Why doesnt anyone talk about that stuff?


Perhaps you have greater firsthand experience than I do because I only know one transgendered person and anything I've read, indicates that a remarkable about of psychological work is done with them long before any hormone treatment begins and continues for a very long time after. It is my understanding that the parents of a minor can't just walk into a doctor's office and demand hormone therapy for a child at will.

One of my kids is gay and they don't just suddenly wake up one morning and decide that's how it's going to be, there are a lot of signals along the way and I would expect the same with trans kids. It's not that we want to shape our kids in some way, it's more a matter of parents seeing a gradual progression.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's been mentioned lots of times, but you're so busy running down new rabbit trails you don't pay attention to anyone other than yourself


wr, I am done with this person following me into any thread I participate in to be as rude and insulting as they possibly can. It has to stop.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

wr said:


> Perhaps you have greater firsthand experience than I do because I only know one transgendered person and anything I've read, indicates that a remarkable about of psychological work is done with them long before any hormone treatment begins and continues for a very long time after. It is my understanding that the parents of a minor can't just walk into a doctor's office and demand hormone therapy for a child at will.
> 
> One of my kids is gay and they don't just suddenly wake up one morning and decide that's how it's going to be, there are a lot of signals along the way and I would expect the same with trans kids. It's not that we want to shape our kids in some way, it's more a matter of parents seeing a gradual progression.


Actually, my point was that I lack sny experience at all. I have my personal bias, as we all do, and buffer that only with what I see or read. If there is a cooloff period before hormones start, I think that is a great thing. I do not care if the outcome is boy or girl, only that we, as a society, have not influenced the outcome to further an agenda. Sortof a simple philosophy.

In other words, I would like to know more about how this type situation in handled on a real world basis.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

thericeguy said:


> Actually, my point was that I lack sny experience at all. I have my personal bias, as we all do, and buffer that only with what I see or read. If there is a cooloff period before hormones start, I think that is a great thing. I do not care if the outcome is boy or girl, only that we, as a society, have not influenced the outcome to further an agenda. Sortof a simple philosophy.


Most people are unlikely to have any contact with a transgendered person and those that are more likely to know someone socially but very possibly not even know they have reassigned so the average person knows next to nothing about the process. 

It is not my understanding that there is as much a cooling off or waiting period before hormone therapy as much as there is a very lengthy process leading up to that point. One of the things that must be established is that a person is realistic about the process and understands that a physical change does not make all the real world problems go away and there are other problems and stresses associated with change. 

I'm not really on either side of the issue but I do base my opinions on my own observations and do feel that if a child was truly trans kid, a parent would see progressive behavior and that would be something an outside may not understand.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

I guess I am most uncomfortable with these processes starting with teens. Society in general does not priveledge teens with many authoritative decisions. They cannot vote, buy cigarettes, alcohol, or consent to most sexual encounters, yet they can transform sexes. 

Why are they mature enough to change sexes but cant tell if having sex is right or wrong? There is a strong contradiction there somewhere.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

thericeguy said:


> I guess I am most uncomfortable with these processes starting with teens. Society in general does not priveledge teens with many authoritative decisions. They cannot vote, buy cigarettes, alcohol, or consent to most sexual encounters, yet they can transform sexes.
> 
> Why are they mature enough to change sexes but cant tell if having sex is right or wrong? There is a strong contradiction there somewhere.


It is my understanding that would be highly unusual for a teen to have any radical transformation prior to maturity. I do understand some cases involve hormone therapy but my bit of research on the matter indicates that the effects are reversible if treatment is stopped. 

Teens aren't allowed to just walk into a doctor, make a declaration and start hormone treatment either. The matter would be discussed with their family doctor, mental health specialists would be involved and at some point, they may be referred to specialists who would handle the situation on three levels, emotional, family and physical. 

Scholarly articles I've read indicate no treatment will commence until a trans kid/adult has fully lived as the gender they identify with for a minimum of a year, while being closely monitored by mental health professionals. 

I don't think it's nearly as rushed as you may think.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

Getting back to Bruce, no wonder he is depressed now that he is a women in the center of all the attention. He used to be able to jump in a pair of jeans and button up shirt but now he must get the hairdresser to make all those curly dos, shave everything including those running legs, get in the spanks to give that hour glass figure, wear the underwire bra (nothing can be more uncomfortable), put on all that make up, and then squeeze into a tight dress and walk in high heels. Geez, that's not what makes a woman. I'm a woman and very seldom wear makeup or spend time with all the hair treatments. But then I'm not on the cover of a magazine either! OK, now you guys can go back to arguing. Sorry to sideline you.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

I just watched a MSNBC interview of Jacob's mother. Jacob is a 6 year old transgender boy just finishing up kindergarden. His parents, apparently, have changed their childs name, though it is possible they named their daughter Jacob at birth. 

His haircut is one typically found on a young male child. The clothing he was shown wearing was typically male, though is there really such a thing anymore? So it would appear that at age 6 it is decided that this person born female will be raised male. The interview made no mentiom of hormones used or unused. 

When I see this news story, I am taken aback. It is not transgenderism I find shocking. It is that at age 6 life changing decisions are being made either for a child or by a child. A very young child. 

Yes, as you mentioned, until surgery it is reversible. But have you ever known someone who confessed they had changed their mind about a pending wedding, but went through with it anyway? I have. Several. I feel it is because people feel a societal pressure to live up to expectations. You said something, so do it. It makes changing your mind a little more difficult. Now try that at 6 or 8 or 10. 

When I said that I thought these things went too fast, it was people like Jacob I was referring to. I also think the previous poster, perhaps even in a related thread, was referring mostly to the very young when speaking about 70% of people with trans feelings later do not have those feelings if left alone. Just a guess on my part. 

To me, it is shocking. Six years old. How can someone six years old possess the wisdom to make such a decision? Can they even understand the implications of it at that age? I cant even trust when my 7 year old tells me if he has homework or not.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

thericeguy said:


> I just watched a MSNBC interview of Jacob's mother. Jacob is a 6 year old transgender boy just finishing up kindergarden. His parents, apparently, have changed their childs name, though it is possible they named their daughter Jacob at birth.
> 
> His haircut is one typically found on a young male child. The clothing he was shown wearing was typically male, though is there really such a thing anymore? So it would appear that at age 6 it is decided that this person born female will be raised male. The interview made no mentiom of hormones used or unused.
> 
> ...


Your overview leaves me more questions than answers but it could be because of information left out. 

I really don't find it remarkable that a child at 6 would want to pick their own hairstyle and style of clothes and mine did as well. I also know kids who have refused to respond to their given names those issues wouldn't cause me to rush out and demand hormone therapy and it seems that the parents you mention haven't either. 

There is no mention in your overview about how the parents are handling things (other than the clothing and name issue) and there is no mention of counseling, psychological assessments or any medical involvement so it's impossible to know if the child is a trans kid or if they're simply a child going through a phase. 

At a similar age, I saw little things that led me to believe my child was different but there's no way I was prepared to affix any labels nor was I interested in influencing their sexuality in any way. 

I guess the difference between us is that you believe that people change their mind about gender orientation and I don't think they do. Having said that, I still believe that this is an issue that should not be rushed because sexual identity develops slowly and there is little room for the media in a personal family decision. 

The problem I have with families, like the one you mention, has a lot more to do with involving the media and affixing labels at a young age than allowing a girl to wear jeans and a cap or allowing them to use a name they prefer.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wr said:


> Your overview leaves me more questions than answers but it could be because of information left out.
> 
> I really don't find it remarkable that a child at 6 would want to pick their own hairstyle and style of clothes and mine did as well. I also know kids who have refused to respond to their given names those issues wouldn't cause me to rush out and demand hormone therapy and it seems that the parents you mention haven't either.
> 
> ...


From what I've read, gender is fixed between the ages of 5-7. "Martin and Ruble conceptualize this process of development as three stages: (1) as toddlers and preschoolers, children learn about defined characteristics, which are socialized aspects of gender; (2) around the ages of 5â7 years, identity is consolidated and becomes rigid; (3) after this "peak of rigidity," fluidity returns and socially defined gender roles relax somewhat.[15] Barbara Newmann breaks it down into four parts: (1) understanding the concept of gender, (2) learning gender role standards and stereotypes, (3) identifying with parents, and (4) forming gender preference.[10]"

It's wiki but the cites are a goldmine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

When I was a young child I verbally told people I wanted to be a boy. My mom still remembers it. And the reason I wanted to be a boy was because in my family, the girls chores were housework and my brother's were mowing lawn, trash, etc. 
My brother got to go on fishing trips with my dad, uncle and male cousins, and my sisters and I "got" to go on shopping trips and lunch out with mom.

I was a tomboy and couldn't understand why I couldn't attend sleepovers with my boy friends. I tried to wear more boyish clothes and begged to dye my curly red hair brown and straighten it so it was less girly.

Being a boy was just more fun than being a girl back then, at least to me.

My parents figured it out easily and changed things up a bit so I could do more outdoorsy things and of course I'm not transgendered at all and very happy being female. But I can easily see some parents taking that kind of thing and running with it. And not for their child's sake but for attention for themselves.

So as politically incorrect as it may be, I really hope there are some roadblocks in place to make sure what is really going on with a particular child. Second opinions from psychiatrists, psychologists, etc.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

wr said:


> Your overview leaves me more questions than answers but it could be because of information left out.
> 
> I really don't find it remarkable that a child at 6 would want to pick their own hairstyle and style of clothes and mine did as well. I also know kids who have refused to respond to their given names those issues wouldn't cause me to rush out and demand hormone therapy and it seems that the parents you mention haven't either.
> 
> ...


As a backdrop or frame of reference, I grew up very rural on a farm and the "city" wasnt much to speak of. Still isnt. Have there not always been what we would call a tomboy? A girl child that preferred typically masculine ideals? Helping dad change the oil. Football. Even dipping snuff. 

Noone ever looked at these girls as boys. They were girls who acted like boys. And as far as I ever knew, when they reached the age of sexual awareness, they liked boys. And luckily for them, aint nothing hotter than a tomboy to a *******. 

With that experience, I guess I have a hard time not seeing a young child coming to their parent with some statement about "I want to be a boy" or " I wish I was a boy", and that gets blown up into something it is not. 

I am not trying to suggest that all transgender persons fit that criteria at all. 

I find it reasonable to wait on certain actions until the child had reached the age of sexual awareness and identifies which sex they are attracted to. Why become the living embodiment of an age old joke? I am a lesbian trapped in a mans body. 

I dont know. Just seems reasonable to me.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

basketti said:


> When I was a young child I verbally told people I wanted to be a boy. My mom still remembers it. And the reason I wanted to be a boy was because in my family, the girls chores were housework and my brother's were mowing lawn, trash, etc.
> My brother got to go on fishing trips with my dad, uncle and male cousins, and my sisters and I "got" to go on shopping trips and lunch out with mom.
> 
> I was a tomboy and couldn't understand why I couldn't attend sleepovers with my boy friends. I tried to wear more boyish clothes and begged to dye my curly red hair brown and straighten it so it was less girly.
> ...


I was a tomboy too. The difference between being a tomboy and being transgendered was that I never thought I was a boy. I always knew I was a girl. A trangender boy never thought of himself as a girl. 

Hormone therapy starts prior to puberty and is completely reversible. Any type of treatment has to ordered by a Dr and I'm going to assume it comes with a lot of testing of various types.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> I was a tomboy too. The difference between being a tomboy and being transgendered was that I never thought I was a boy. I always knew I was a girl. A trangender boy never thought of himself as a girl.
> 
> Hormone therapy starts prior to puberty and is completely reversible. Any type of treatment has to ordered by a Dr and I'm going to assume it comes with a lot of testing of various types.


With young children, I can see confusion between the two. I'm not saying that there aren't transgendered kids because I know there are. I'm just saying there should be a lot of double and triple checking of the doctors and parents as well as the kids. Not all parents have their kids best interests at heart.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> From what I've read, gender is fixed between the ages of 5-7. "Martin and Ruble conceptualize this process of development as three stages: (1) as toddlers and preschoolers, children learn about defined characteristics, which are socialized aspects of gender; (2) around the ages of 5â7 years, identity is consolidated and becomes rigid; (3) after this "peak of rigidity," fluidity returns and socially defined gender roles relax somewhat.[15] Barbara Newmann breaks it down into four parts: (1) understanding the concept of gender, (2) learning gender role standards and stereotypes, (3) identifying with parents, and (4) forming gender preference.[10]"
> 
> It's wiki but the cites are a goldmine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity


I've read similar but but I'm also of the opinion that sexual identity is something that evolves over time and a child in the 5 -7 range is at the start of a long journey and their minds are immature so the process needs to be gradual and they need to be allowed to guide the journey, as their minds allow.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

basketti said:


> With young children, I can see confusion between the two. I'm not saying that there aren't transgendered kids because I know there are. I'm just saying there should be a lot of double and triple checking of the doctors and parents as well as the kids. Not all parents have their kids best interests at heart.


Same thing I am saying, just using the words slow down.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

wr said:


> I've read similar but but I'm also of the opinion that sexual identity is something that evolves over time and a child in the 5 -7 range is at the start of a long journey and their minds are immature so the process needs to be gradual and they need to be allowed to guide the journey, as their minds allow.


Which is why I have a shocked reaction to a renamed 6 year old. Want to wear clothes, fine. Cut your hair, ok. But you are a girl. At the age of X (a matter of public debate), you have attained the right to tier 2 or whatever term you wish to call it.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> From what I've read, gender is fixed between the ages of 5-7. "Martin and Ruble conceptualize this process of development as three stages: (1) as toddlers and preschoolers, children learn about defined characteristics, which are socialized aspects of gender; (2) around the ages of 5â7 years, identity is consolidated and becomes rigid; (3) after this "peak of rigidity," fluidity returns and socially defined gender roles relax somewhat.[15] Barbara Newmann breaks it down into four parts: (1) understanding the concept of gender, (2) learning gender role standards and stereotypes, (3) identifying with parents, and (4) forming gender preference.[10]"
> 
> It's wiki but the cites are a goldmine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity


"This research was supported in part by the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development Research Grant #HD04994 to Diane N. Ruble. "


I know that in this day and time that there are literally thousands of opportunities to obtain a grant to study this or that and that for any issue that there will be grants for both sides of the issue. With that said, there is money to be made for supporting this or that. When it comes to psychiatry, something that anyone can come up with this or that idea and supply lots of mumbo-jumbo as to why this should be this way or that way.

From the get-go, this has been a very uncomfortable subject to me. Sort of like seeing the Bearded Lady at the carnival[not said as an insult]. The persons that I know that are transgendered show numerous signs of substantial instabilities as noted by a somewhat average person[myself]. I've given them the benefit of the doubt[treated them as normal people] as I do for 98% of the people that I encounter. This is my perception and is not subject to anyone's scrutiny as are other person's perceptions not subject to my scrutiny. It is more of an "I can see how you might have gained that perception." type of moment.

It is by this perception that I am forced to wonder: Did these instabilities appear before or after their understanding of what gender they identified with was? If it is answered either "Before" or "After" then I have further questions.

This is a truthful statement made in the desire to further the discussion and not one made so that those that are usually rude in their responses can repeat their rudeness.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

The conversation has seemed to turn reasonable. I hope it to continue as such.


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## joebill (Mar 2, 2013)

All I know for sure is that I await eagerly the emergence of the first trans-species child, since my grandson, age 4, was seen throwing dirt on top of his head and announcing that he was an elephant, and his mother as an infant felt a close personal bond with bugs.....Joe


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

thericeguy said:


> As a backdrop or frame of reference, I grew up very rural on a farm and the "city" wasnt much to speak of. Still isnt. Have there not always been what we would call a tomboy? A girl child that preferred typically masculine ideals? Helping dad change the oil. Football. Even dipping snuff.
> 
> Noone ever looked at these girls as boys. They were girls who acted like boys. And as far as I ever knew, when they reached the age of sexual awareness, they liked boys. And luckily for them, aint nothing hotter than a tomboy to a *******.
> 
> ...


I have a funny feeling we aren't too far apart on the subject but basing our opinions on our own experiences. 

I speak as a parent who's watched a child that many would consider 'different' follow that gradual progression but I actually do see your point. I would hope that most parents would find their child the best emotional help they could find in order to ensure that whatever path they follow is the right one for them but it must be a difficult process without allowing the child to feel that they are wrong or broken in some way.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

wr said:


> I have a funny feeling we aren't too far apart on the subject but basing our opinions on our own experiences.
> 
> I speak as a parent who's watched a child that many would consider 'different' follow that gradual progression but I actually do see your point. I would hope that most parents would find their child the best emotional help they could find in order to ensure that whatever path they follow is the right one for them but it must be a difficult process without allowing the child to feel that they are wrong or broken in some way.


I have two polar opposite children. I can see how a parent might be confused with some of the behaviors. Thankful of the Good Lord's graces, my youngest will be 18 this year. These two children have been absolute gifts that I am undeserving of.

That being said, there were numerous times where I know that I could have steered either one in this direction or that direction. It is with hindsight that I am glad that I did not reinforce any of the whims that they had that I felt internally was incorrect. And yes, there were some hard choices that I had to make. 

I let love win the day.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Shine said:


> I have two polar opposite children. I can see how a parent might be confused with some of the behaviors. Thankful of the Good Lord's graces, my youngest will be 18 this year. These two children have been absolute gifts that I am undeserving of.
> 
> That being said, there were numerous times where I know that I could have steered either one in this direction or that direction. It is with hindsight that I am glad that I did not reinforce any of the whims that they had that I felt internally was incorrect. And yes, there were some hard choices that I had to make.
> 
> I let love win the day.



Perhaps your intention is otherwise but it appears you believe that I 'steered' my child toward being gay, which is completely incorrect and rather simplistic.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

A person should be able to share their experience without being accused of attacking others in doing so. Anything less would stifle the exchange of ideas.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

wr said:


> Perhaps your intention is otherwise but it appears you believe that I 'steered' my child toward being gay, which is completely incorrect and rather simplistic.


I have no intention of suggesting anything of the sort. I said that the opportunity was there for me. I just intended to say that I pushed in neither direction and let what happened, happen.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

thericeguy said:


> wr, I am done with this person following me into any thread I participate in to be as rude and insulting as they possibly can. It has to stop.


There's an easy to use "ignore" feature provided for your convenience.
Don't fool yourself into thinking you're being "followed" 
You're really not that interesting


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's an easy to use "ignore" feature provided for your convenience.
> Don't fool yourself into thinking you're being "followed"
> You're really not that interesting


It is clear to me some prefer a screaming match to a conversation. Some people are just more comfortable in that.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's an easy to use "ignore" feature provided for your convenience.
> Don't fool yourself into thinking you're being "followed"
> You're really not that interesting


Classic BFF:

"Use the ignore feature"
"Warning, you are fooling yourself" sting
Followed by words intended to insult.

I don't know why it is allowed but for me, almost all of your posts fall into the "Not Nice" category.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

thericeguy said:


> It is clear to me some prefer a screaming match to a conversation. Some people are just more comfortable in that.


I have noticed that your posts often are taking shots at the person and not the post. There are lessons to be learned by all of us.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Shine said:


> Classic BFF:
> 
> "Use the ignore feature"
> "Warning, you are fooling yourself" sting
> ...


And yet you still read and respond, even while whining about them.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

thericeguy said:


> It is clear to me some prefer a screaming match to a conversation. Some people are just more comfortable in that.


No one is screaming, and no one is forced to read anything at all.
I've simply made some accurate observations with which you disagree.
Feel free to not read anything I post, if it truly bothers you.
It makes no difference to me


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

And like magic, the tribe shows up, guns flying, making sure noone ever has a civilized conversation. I knew it was too good to be true. 

wr, yeah we are likely fairly close on the topic. Our versions of implementation may differ here and there, but you and I are individuals. To be expected.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

thericeguy said:


> And like magic, the tribe shows up, guns flying, making sure noone ever has a civilized conversation. I knew it was too good to be true.


You keep saying things like that but your posts are getting deleted for insults. Then you blame everyone else's posts for not being civilized. If you can make those sort of comments it would seem that others should be able to as well.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

thericeguy said:


> And like magic, the tribe shows up, guns flying, making sure noone ever has a civilized conversation. I knew it was too good to be true.
> 
> wr, yeah we are likely fairly close on the topic. Our versions of implementation may differ here and there, but you and I are individuals. To be expected.


"A person should be able to share their experience without being accused of attacking others in doing so. Anything less would stifle the exchange of ideas."


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

painterswife said:


> You keep saying things like that but your posts are getting deleted for insults. Then you blame everyone else's posts for not being civilized. If you can make those sort of comments it would seem that others should be able to as well.


I would just as soon have someplace where no one responds in a snotty fashion, myself included. Somehow we need to find a balance point...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Shine said:


> I would just as soon have someplace where no one responds in a snotty fashion, myself included. Somehow we need to find a balance point...


You're looking for Disney World, but spending all your time in GC and Politics.

Do you see the conundrum?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Shine said:


> I would just as soon have someplace where no one responds in a snotty fashion, myself included. Somehow we need to find a balance point...


I agree. I however am realistic. Not ever going to happen when people keep making comments about tribes showing up. and attacking the person not the post.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Shine said:


> I would just as soon have someplace where no one responds in a snotty fashion, myself included. Somehow we need to find a balance point...


Cooking threads are low key, knitting looks civilized too.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Shine said:


> I have no intention of suggesting anything of the sort. I said that the opportunity was there for me. I just intended to say that I pushed in neither direction and let what happened, happen.



Are you suggesting you guided a gay child to become straight or simply that you raised your children and they are straight?


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

wr said:


> Are you suggesting you guided a gay child to become straight or simply that you raised your children and they are straight?


I am not sure what you want me to say. I've stated what I did to raise my children, I did not focus on their sexuality. I also do not understand your direction here, do you want to think that I made you the subject of my post when I was just relating my experience?

As far as my children go, I think that they are straight. It would not matter to me if they were not.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Shine said:


> I am not sure what you want me to say. I've stated what I did to raise my children, I did not focus on their sexuality. I also do not understand your direction here, do you want to think that I made you the subject of my post when I was just relating my experience?
> 
> As far as my children go, I think that they are straight. It would not matter to me if they were not.


I'm not asking to to say anything at all. Your comment was a bit round about and I was trying to verify if you felt that by raising a kid in a certain way ensured that they would end up straight and if that was the case, I intended to simply clarify that it doesn't always work that way.

I do have a great deal of respect for any parent who indicates that they would love their child unconditionally, no matter what their sexual identity.


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