# Restoration Process For Land That Won't Perk



## brownthumb (May 18, 2006)

Ok guys, I need some help. I know the old saying "you only get what you pay for" and "if it sounds too good to be true," but I am really tempted to buy a 25 acre parcel of land that would not pass a perk test. The land is level, 3/4 tillable and 1/4 woodland with mature trees. It has been on the market for over a year and had one offer that fell through when they couldn't get a satisfactory perk test. The Amish neighbors have been planting soybeans on it for several years. The realtor claims that if you are willing to truck in soil, sand, gravel etc and let it sit for 4 or 5 years that it should then pass a perk test. Is this true? Is there any estimate of how many triaxles of these I would need to make this work? I don't really need the land now but I am thinking it might be good idea if I could build a small retirement cabin on it in 5-7 years when I retire. I know very little about soil and septic systems but apparently this land wouldn't even pass for a sand mound so it must have very little topsoil. Is this a really bad idea?


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Does this mean you have a really high water table? Or is it to do with the composition of the soil?


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## brownthumb (May 18, 2006)

the soil is poor quality...not swamp but very clay based. It's in western PA.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Seems like a lot of expensive to get to questionable results.

Believe it or not a lot of land that "used to" pass a perk, won't any more, the Reg's are getting tougher and tougher all the time. So even if you did do all that, it might not pass a perk in the future.

Sort of ran into this at "The Place", the land was perked in 1987, and guaranteed a perk at time of purchase, some of my neighbors weren't so lucky, even though theirs was perked at the same time, they didn't have the guarantee, so they were sorta stuck.

May want to just look into a "mound system". It's about double the cost, but completely legal and is what most areas want you to do anyway.

Maybe this could be a bargining point on price.


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## RLStewart (Sep 10, 2006)

I have heard that trucking a bunch of gravel in will work. I don't know any details and I don't know that its entirely legal but I know people do it sometimes. We are in western PA so I know what you mean about clay soil! Around here people also wait for a real dry spell before they have their land tested and that makes it alittle more likely to pass. 

I guess for me it would depend on how good of a deal you can get on the land and if you can afford to take the risk. Also maybe think about not having a septic. I don't know anything about the regulations regarding that but it could be solution.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

I think a properly engineered mound system would be a safer investment. You could truck in endless fill, and not be sure if it will pass the test until the end.

In northwestern Ontario, they are sitting on the Canadian Shield, bedrock with little or no topsoil, so virtually all septic systems have to be designed in this manner.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Have you considered tiling the area? If you could drain some of that water off, perhaps into a pond if you don't have a drainage ditch.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

I suggest you read this then go talk to whomever the authority for approval for septic systems resides and see what they think of your installing a mound system.
http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/housing/448-401/448-401.html#L2


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## Rocky Fields (Jan 24, 2007)

Hey.

This is a case for a septic holding system. Waste goes into a holding tank and has to
be emptied out by a licensed septic guy. There is no drainfield involved. Fool around with waste and you may pollute your groundwater if your watertable is close to the surface. It's recommended to get the largest holding tank you can.


RF


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

Rocky Fields said:


> Hey.
> 
> This is a case for a septic holding system. Waste goes into a holding tank and has to
> be emptied out by a licensed septic guy. There is no drainfield involved. Fool around with waste and you may pollute your groundwater if your watertable is close to the surface. It's recommended to get the largest holding tank you can.
> RF


I don't know about all jurisdictions, but I know in some areas septic holding tanks are no longer allowed. For instance, in Northwestern Ontario where there is extensive cottage country and numerous lakes, they started banning the holding tanks because some of the septic guys would do a midnight dump into a ditch, lake or stream rather than haul it to a treatment facility. 

I think speaking to a local septic contractor would be wise, they can tell you about local regulations as well as what folks generally do.


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## tiogacounty (Oct 27, 2005)

agmantoo said:


> I suggest you read this then go talk to whomever the authority for approval for septic systems resides and see what they think of your installing a mound system.
> http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/housing/448-401/448-401.html#L2


The mound system you are refering to is the standard for PA on-site systems anymore. It has been in widespread use here for the last 20+ years. They represent the vast majority of new installations in many areas of the state. The issue here is that either the soil profile review or perculation test rates are unacceptable, regardless of what type of system is involved. It used to be acceptable to place suitable fill dirt in a location and allow five years to pass before retesting,Gravel would be a big mistake, it would have to be clean soil that doesn't drain excessively fast or slow, and a lot of it. A lot as in four or five thousand cubic feet minimum. That said, regulations change every few years and this may no longer be acceptable. There are alternatives available but they are more costly and have to be approved by the state and local juristictions. The buck starts and stops with the local Sewage enforcement officer, unless you are darn sure that he is either incorrect or attempting to deny you of what you are leagally entitled to. In that case you can appeal to the state and challenge his findings. You best bet is to schedule a meeting with the local SEO and ask where you stand on this issue, any opinion you read here is questionable since it doesn't reflect the latest DEP regs, or the opinion of the only guy that matters, the SEO having juristiction. Good luck. BTW, holding tanks are not allowed in this application.


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

tioga has it right. I used to be a perk tester, and if it won't perk, it means you can't have a conventional inground system or a sand mound.
Bringing in soil must be of a certain type, not gravel which would perk too fast!!! That will fail also. There are no guarantees if you bring in the right type of soil. There are alternative systems such are irrigation, but they take up more space and are costly. I'd say "move on."
You don't want to bet your retirement on something in 4-5 years that may not pass, plus the regs may become even more restrictive by then.
PA is a PITA for this, and individual SEOs often are compromised.
However, with the acreage you have, perhaps other sites might perk. That would be a possibility.
Good luck, but don't base your future on a maybe. Either get a good perk someplace on the land or look for something else that will perk.
Ann


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## Rocky Fields (Jan 24, 2007)

Hey.

I know parts of PA still allow septic holding tanks. I know they are allowed around Paoli,Brogue,Orangeville, and Centre Hall. Things are always changing, so it would have to be checked into with the local government for where the land is situated.
It gets to be expensive having the tank emptied regularly. Might want to check into local law for building an outhouse.

Get the local Amish take on it...talk to the neighbors...bring a pie with you;-)

Here is the PA code for septic holding tanks:

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/025/chapter73/s73.62.html

Here is the code for sand mound:

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/025/chapter73/s73.55.html


RF


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## pumpkinlady (Sep 3, 2003)

What were the reasons it didn't pass the perk test? Did you get to see the results of the declined application? I would get a copy of the test and ask either the SEO who did the testing or I would contact the Township SEO where the property is as to what the problem was. Was it the holes, is there a creek or stream to close by, a well, etc.

Ask them what they thought your best chance is to get the land to pass. Maybe you will have to haul in fill dirt and let the land sit for the required number of years. The land can be tested anytime you alter the land but you can't have any holes dug for the test where the land has been altered. 

A lot of W PA will not pass for conventional systems anymore. This includes sand mounds. Systems are starting to get costly. 

I would also check the original sub-division map of the land and see it it shows if the land was perked. Ask to see the DEP papers, planning modules, computations and if there is a non-building waiver on the property.


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## Rocky Fields (Jan 24, 2007)

Hey.

Better check with some local well drillers while yer at it. Drilling 1,000 feet or more thru rock can be expensive too.

RF


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## BasicLiving (Oct 2, 2006)

anniew said:


> Good luck, but don't base your future on a maybe. Either get a good perk someplace on the land or look for something else that will perk.
> Ann


I agree. And I would look for something else. We had to get an alternative system on our property - a "drip" system. It was VERY expensive - and it is not THE most expensive out there. If you can't even perk for a drip system, you are looking at big $$$$$$. It will very likely surpass the cost of a "deal" on the land.

I wouldn't chance it. But that's just my 1 cent worth.

Penny


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

My soil engineer /septic design guy told me that if I wanted to put in a septic at the exact spot where I wanted it to be. Then I should buy three foot of sand/loam onto the area and plant grass. After four years of sand/loam supporting grass, then to hire a new perc done, and it WILL pass.

Or I could just put it where it passes now, and pipe it there from my house.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Don't listen to your Amish neighbor, don't listen to your realtor, listen to someone who is knowledgeable of your state's septic regulations! Hire yourself a reputable soil scientist and have him evaluate the soil on the property.


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## Rocky Fields (Jan 24, 2007)

Hey.

Regardless of what others say above, talk to the Amish neighbors. I don't know about the Amish in the Crosslake-Emily MN area, but my Amish neighbors don't have indoor plumbing or electricity. They are masterful in building outhouses...especially multiple holers. And if you read about all the neighbor problems in this forum, it's best you see how they are in advance. The local septic installer will often be the guy who will do your perk. All you have to do is tell them where it's at and odds are they already know the soil in that area, so they can advise you. Soil scientists are for farming.

RF


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Rocky Fields said:


> Hey.
> Regardless of what others say above, talk to the Amish neighbors. I don't know about the Amish in the Crosslake-Emily MN area, but my Amish neighbors don't have indoor plumbing or electricity. They are masterful in building outhouses...especially multiple holers. And if you read about all the neighbor problems in this forum, it's best you see how they are in advance. The local septic installer will often be the guy who will do your perk. All you have to do is tell them where it's at and odds are they already know the soil in that area, so they can advise you. Soil scientists are for farming.
> 
> RF


An eighth grade education makes the man an expert on everything? I think not.

Septic system installation is NOT done by 'septic system design / soil science engineers'. The first is a site-work contractor with a crane and a back hoe [ie, no education]. The second is a degreed professional with a state license.

In this area ONLY the engineer with the state license can approve the site where you can put in a septic system.

In fact I can put the system in, it takes no training. I just have to follow the site design from the licensed engineer.


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## Rocky Fields (Jan 24, 2007)

Hey.

Things are different in northern WI. A hole is dug and a measured amount of water is released over a set amount of time. The fellow who does the perk is licensed and his results are what determine what kind of septic system you can get a permit for. Cost for a perk test is $300-$400 here. I don't think the eight grade education has held him back.

RF


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

An Amish man got a license from the state of Wis to be a soil scientist/septic design engineer?


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## Rocky Fields (Jan 24, 2007)

Hey.

I thought you were applying the eighth grade education insult to the local septic installer. I should have known you were talking about the Amish neighbors after you had said: "site-work contractor with a crane and a back hoe [ie, no education]." A good crane and backhoe costs around 1 million, so I guess no education hasn't hurt him either. My Amish neighbor owns 500 acres debtfree. I guess the eighth grade education hasn't hurt him either. My only conclusion is that your education has hurt you, since you have a supremecy complex that has led you to insult a lot of good hardworking people.

RF


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## Obser (Feb 14, 2006)

What is the Pennsylvania (or country) law regarding when a septic permit is required? In years past, the owner of ten or more acres was not required to obtain a permit (at least in some areas of rural western Pennsylvania -- Venango County for example).


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## RLStewart (Sep 10, 2006)

I think things have changed alot regarding septic permits. Here in Erie County you can't even fix an existing system without permission. Of course if you are doing alot of heavy equipment work they might not notice! The house we just bought had no leach bed. Just a tank and a spot where they had brought in a bunch of fill. I think its highly unlikely that there is a spot on our entire property that would perk. There are alot of places like that around here. I think I could live with an outhouse, incinerating or composting toilet before I would pay 20K just to have a flushing toilet.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Rocky Fields said:


> Hey.
> 
> I thought you were applying the eighth grade education insult to the local septic installer. I should have known you were talking about the Amish neighbors after you had said: "site-work contractor with a crane and a back hoe [ie, no education]." A good crane and backhoe costs around 1 million, so I guess no education hasn't hurt him either. My Amish neighbor owns 500 acres debtfree. I guess the eighth grade education hasn't hurt him either. My only conclusion is that your education has hurt you, since you have a supremecy complex that has led you to insult a lot of good hardworking people.
> 
> RF


I do not intend any insult to the Amish.

We used one of the Amish/Mennonite homeschool curiculums for educating our children ['Christian Light Education']. However they are not big on college degrees.

And as such they are not generally soil scientists

They may have learned 'common sense' from their up-bringing, but that too is not guaranteed.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

pumpkinlady said:


> What were the reasons it didn't pass the perk test? Did you get to see the results of the declined application? I would get a copy of the test and ask either the SEO who did the testing or I would contact the Township SEO where the property is as to what the problem was. Was it the holes, is there a creek or stream to close by, a well, etc.
> 
> Ask them what they thought your best chance is to get the land to pass. Maybe you will have to haul in fill dirt and let the land sit for the required number of years. The land can be tested anytime you alter the land but you can't have any holes dug for the test where the land has been altered.
> 
> ...


If it's really cheap it may be worth the expense. The add fill and wait happens quite often. But the best thing to do is hire a geo. engineer to perform the soil test in conjunction with the local "professional". If you take the time and expense to hire a geo. firm to represent you they will over rule the local guy if he is a dink. That is a big problem in some areas. 
Where is this property? If it's in the mountains the local guy will usually find the soil very shallow due to the overlayment of rock when the glaciers passed. It is some times possible to dig down further and find acceptable fill. This is what the geo. engineer will study. He will profile the whole soil column and find the best place to test. Then He will tell you the system you need and you can install.

In Pa they took all the power from the local officials and placed it with the state. Some of the towns haven't figured this out yet. So it's best to get the professionals(soils engineers) in early it avoids issues.


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## pumpkinlady (Sep 3, 2003)

Obser said:


> What is the Pennsylvania (or country) law regarding when a septic permit is required? In years past, the owner of ten or more acres was not required to obtain a permit (at least in some areas of rural western Pennsylvania -- Venango County for example).


The 10-acre exemption referred to above has some stipulations too.
The owner has to provide a copy of the deed documenting ownership of the property (prior to January 10, 1987) for which the exemption is being requested. Confirmation in writing that the structure served by the permit-expempt on-lot system is a residential structure to be occupied by either the property owner or the property owner's immediate family. There is a $25.00 fee for the application. There are 19 isolation distances to be verified by the local agency or the local SEO. A SEO (Sewage Enforcement Officer) must sign off on the application after inspection the system upon completion of installation. All necessary papers will be sent to the DEP.


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## Obser (Feb 14, 2006)

Pumpkinlady, 

Thanks for the informed update. It has been many years since I left Pennsylvania -- partially because I considered the state over-regulated even then. Some states still have various exemptions from septic system laws or inspections for rural acreage. 

I see little real reason to be concerned about septic systems (or lack thereof) for residences on rural acreage (unless sewage was dumped directly into a stream or lake that involved other property).


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Listen to Cabin Fever!

When I had a perc test done in Az, a back hoe dug down 12 feet, then the company (licensed by the state) put a specified amount of water in the hole, then timed how long it took to disappear. Then they said I had to put in 100 feet of leach lines along with the septic tank. This property will go up for sale eventually, so I didn't put in a septic system, but the certificate will help sell the property as it does perk.

I really don't think trucking in some dirt, planting grass, then testing in a few years will do it.

Call the state - do your homework or better yet, write a contract with the sale dependent upon the property perking. That puts the responsibility on the owner. Make sure you see the certificate when completed.


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## Daddymem (Oct 5, 2006)

I don't know what the regs. are where you are at, but as a certified soil evaluator in MA, if I dug down my 10-foot minimum observation hole and I saw fill material I would have to keep going until I got to natural material and 4-feet of that at least-and yeah, you can tell the difference.


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## Caleob K. (Oct 18, 2004)

Again, you'd have to check local regs on this but I found a good solution here in Eastern Kansas. 

I bought my acreage two years ago and didn't pass the perc test because of excessive clay. I ended up building a
constructed wetland . 

The "effluent" flows out of a septic tank and into a plastic lined bed filled with gravel and cattails or other emergent vegetation. Then it flows out of that bed into another bed thorugh perforate PVC pipe. 

I built the beds myself with a tractor and box-blade and got the cattails for free from my pond (if you count 2 days of hard labor half buried in mud free). I planted my second bed to comfey which loves the nutrient load and gives me high protein feed for the (future) chickens.

Even with some really wet springs here we've never had problems with the system overloading. It's not a solution for everone but it sure worked for us - Good luck!


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