# Energy Conservation Stops Potential House Fire.



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

One omission to any energy forum *Should* have a conservation section, particularly when it's renewable/sustainable, but this forum doesn't have one...

I've been helping a family a few miles down the road over the past few years to reduce bills and try to go more sustainable.
Two of those lessons are to reduce consumption and don't think you need to buy the 'Latest-Greatest'.

One of the things I showed them was a power strip on a timer, twist the knob for up to 1 hour and it shuts off automatically.
I use them for phone, pad, etc charging so the transformers (wall worts) don't suck power all day.
Wall worts suck power 24/7/365 no matter if they are charging anything or not, so I put the phone or whatever on the chargers then crank the knob, things charge, then it shuts off.

When I visited yesterday I found out one of their transformers had malfunctioned and melted down, scorched the wall and melted the plastic on the power strip, but the timer shut it down before it could set the wall on fire.
It's an old farm house and they don't fair well when they catch fire, so I'm glad it wasn't worse.

That house was rewired with proper outlets & earth grounds, a good breaker box and breakers, so it was something that was slow and progressive and didn't trip the breaker on the power strip or breaker box, which is real bad news.

So basically, conservation measures saved their home, and we are making plans for a metal power strip with a heat shield (that doesn't look like crap) for them.

I hang timers on anything that draws power when it's supposedly turned 'Off'.
Computers, entertainment stuff, even coffee makers & microwaves.
Computers & entertainment equipment are the worst, most draw 90% of working power when they are on 'Stand By' instead of actually being 'Off' and not drawing current.
I actually never thought of timers keeping the place from catching fire...


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yep, sometimes you're a genius and don't even know it!


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I actually got the timer idea from energy conservation information, and it was simple enough even I could do it (since it's plug & play).

Plug your stuff I to the worts, push the button or crank the knob on the timer and walk off.
Keeps me from watching too much TV because you have to get up every hour and twist the knob again, reminds me I should be doing something else.

Most people don't want to spend the 30 seconds to a minute for the TV to boot up, to save the energy (and to get me off my butt) I use a timer.

On a side note,
I'm having a hard time finding microwaves with crank knobs that don't have clocks, they are getting really hard to find.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Whats a wart?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Google is your friend, and Wikipedia is his cousin. 

“An AC adapter, AC/DC adapter, or AC/DC converter[1] is a type of external power supply, often enclosed in a case similar to an AC plug. Other common names include plug pack, plug-in adapter, adapter block, domestic mains adapter, line power adapter, wall wart, power brick, and power adapter. “


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I unplug stuff when it’s not in use.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

JeepHammer said:


> I actually got the timer idea from energy conservation information, and it was simple enough even I could do it (since it's plug & play).
> 
> Plug your stuff I to the worts, push the button or crank the knob on the timer and walk off.
> Keeps me from watching too much TV because you have to get up every hour and twist the knob again, reminds me I should be doing something else.
> ...


Ask a convenience store where they get their microwaves, a lot of them still have them.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I unplug stuff when it’s not in use.


That makes more sense than unplugging it while in use.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Any experience with these WIFI controlled plugs which you can turn off using your Cell Phone or other devices like Alexa or Siri ?

I looked at reviews such as this https://www.postscapes.com/smart-outlets/ but it doesn't mention "standby" power the actual plug uses.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Steve_S said:


> Any experience with these WIFI controlled plugs which you can turn off using your Cell Phone or other devices like Alexa or Siri ?
> 
> I looked at reviews such as this https://www.postscapes.com/smart-outlets/ but it doesn't mention "standby" power the actual plug uses.


Nope, and I will never have any experience with them, because I don't use that foolishness.
But I can tell you that the world is pushing that way. The latest NEC electrical code is now requiring an additional neutral wire (white wire) in every circuit in new homes built.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I have a timer on about everything that 'Charges' or has 'Stand By' and not an actual 'Off'.
It's quite a lot of current they suck (called 'Energy Vampires' in some circles) when not in use.

There was a push a while back for 'Smart Chargers', ones that actually shut off when nothing was drawing current, but congress choked like usual...
The circuit that shuts the charger/wall wort down when not in use cost an average of 11¢ per transformer... 

I just use crank knob timers. Cheap at the big box stores & farm stores, live a LONG time, have common terminals, with just like a flip switch or outlet, fit common outlet boxes, etc.
I just never thought one would cut power off in time to stop a meltdown/fire, my mind doesn't work that way, just not that far extreme scenario guy...


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Diving into Smart Plugs and IoT there are several brands like Amazon's, TP-Link and Smart Things which can control individual plugs (on/off & energy - power usage) that do not require a control hub / unit but can work with them of course. These are not that expensive hovering around $20 per unit. Standby idle draw on them is typically less than 3W and some brands far less.

An interesting side note / point. As I am writing software to control & monitor my Sola Controller, Inverter & other systems, these "Smart Plugs" can also be incorporated into that same software which will round out my "Cabin Manager" system. With a Weather Monitoring Station, plus my HRV (Heat Recovering Ventilator) [ uses low power Axial Fans ] from AC Infinity REF: https://www.acinfinity.com/quiet-usb-fans/ NOTE, they may look like cheapo plastic computer fans, they are NOT, they are cast aluminium and seriously heavy duty and ultra quiet. All of this will reside on a Raspberry Pi running Raspian and Node Red with INfluxDB for time tracking and measuring. A Good "Winter Project" !


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Maybe write that up in the energy section when it's done?

I'm all about low tech.
Anything that an end user can draw out & build is something they can repair/replace as needed.
Everyday common materials always beat expensive 'Unobtainum' in the real world since 'Crap Happens' in the real world.

I'm not anti-technology by a long shot, but there is a point of price, and plain need in anything.
A valuable lesson was leaving the electronic key (fob) for a car in the cup holder, laying a cell phone that also controlled the car on the fob, and locked doors...
$650,000 car that was parking lot art for a day while the dealership truck drove in, hauled the car back to the dealership, and extracted the fob/cell phone. 12 hours of my life I'm not getting back...

Too bad we weren't in my old beater, it had a lot more room, there is an extra key under the hood, and it's so old no one wants to steal it so I don't bother locking it! 

I built my solar system before the days every battery maintenance system was built into the inverter.
It took a little planning to get the charge controllers, de-sulfidators, etc wired to each battery string, but when the BMS in the inverter fails, I'm not stuck for power while it gets fixed.

The most complicated thing I own is the inverter and a PLC/proximity switches as stops for positioning the panels to track sunlight. Since they are all industrial grade and common, they are inexpensive & long lived.
I backed up the proximity switches with mechanical switches should the PLC/proximity fail, they simply cut the power off to the drive motor. Mr. Murphy IS looking over my shoulder!


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

It's a work in progress... FOR SURE!
There are a crap ton of science, technology & education *HATERS* out there, and they all seem to have a keyboard & internet access, which is ironic to begin with... An oxymoron by definition.

My original redundant back up was a power transfer switch,
One inverter fails, the secondary gets powered and takes over.
I'm a huge fan of 'OH CRAP' safeties, and 'Idiot Proofing'.

When I wired my battery strings, they got pull apart, high amp DC connectors, less than $20 each.
*IF* I had gone the 'Recommended' route, that would have been a $45 disconnect box, $75 worth of high amp DC disconnect switches, and the assorted fittings for the box.
On top of that, the $20 connector or get the tools out and unbolt the batteries to service.

I opted for the $20 connector since it's a positive, air gap current disconnect (DUH!).
When you pull the connector handle, the batteries are DISCONNECTED, no need for a second disconnect...
And since the high amp battery connectors are NEMA rated... The question becomes why do the same thing twice? It's not like a redundant backup...

I use solid state when appropriate, like high cycle count applications.
For an emergency stop, nothing beats a plain old mechanical air gap switch.
100% no fail when my butt is on the line, that 'Big Red Button' doesn't have to be pushed often, but when it does I prefer it works 100% of the time!

I'm about completely ignorant in coding.
A PLC is about the extent of what I get right the first time.
I have issues with GG coding, and that's about as dirt simple as it gets...
Just not my generation and not my field of study, I'm trying, and I won't pee on someone that does it.

I've gone rounds with people that tell me I can't do what I already have up and running!
That's BEYOND maddening!
It's even worse when someone 'Claims' to have an education in a particular subject and argues basic principals exactly backwards of how they are... (Some 'Expert'!)

It's the internet, you take the good with the bad, the guys that are on the same page, the guys that want to learn, and the guys that insult/argue to get schooled so they don't have to do the research (which would have been faster).
Some just argue/insult because they have nothing better to do.

If you decide to post up a tutorial, or link to your work, I for one, would like to see it.
Not saying I'll understand it... 

And you are very correct about a dog pack on this forum...


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

JeepHammer said:


> One omission to any energy forum *Should* have a conservation section, particularly when it's renewable/sustainable, but this forum doesn't have one...
> .


This forum doesn't have one because it has been omitted. 

But that is a good idea. I haven't seen any dial timers for outlets, probably because I have never looked. I do have power strips with switches and turn most things (like the internet connection) off when not in use but the dial timer would be a good thing to have on other items. 

I never leave cell phone chargers plugged in. The coffee maker uses the same outlet. Not near enough accessible outlets in this house.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> This forum doesn't have one because it has been omitted.


o·mit
/əˈmit,ōˈmit/
_verb_
past tense: *omitted*; past participle: *omitted*

leave out or exclude (someone or something), either intentionally or forgetfully.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Yep, what I said. An omission has been omitted. Either intentionally (which I doubt) or inadvertently, because maybe no one thought of it.

You should request a "sticky" for conservation. You have a lot of good ideas that would benefit not only people off grid but those who want to reduce their overall power consumption.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Posts were deleted because they they were rife with insults. It's been my experience that people tend to be more receptive to hearing someone's voice if you're not insulting them first. 

Failing to follow that advice, the thread has been cleaned up and if members continue to deliver insulting messages, the thread will be locked.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> Yep, what I said. An omission has been omitted. Either intentionally (which I doubt) or inadvertently, because maybe no one thought of it.
> 
> You should request a "sticky" for conservation. You have a lot of good ideas that would benefit not only people off grid but those who want to reduce their overall power consumption.


That won't happen, I'm not the moderators favorite person.
A suggestion is only seen as an insult.



wr said:


> Posts were deleted because they they were rife with insults. It's been my experience that people tend to be more receptive to hearing someone's voice if you're not insulting them first.
> 
> Failing to follow that advice, the thread has been cleaned up and if members continue to deliver insulting messages, the thread will be locked.


That's the point of the dog pack isn't it, to get threads edited, locked or removed entirely?

--------------------

I started conserving to save money.
$10 for a light bulb seemed steep, but some of my original efficiency bulbs are still functioning 20+ years later. 
Requiring 10% of standard light bulbs they have most certainly paid for themselves, and now they are $2 each.
While 60 & 100 watt bulbs were most common, I started paying electric bills in the mid 90s, when the floor lamps for indirect lighting was common, and those were 500 Watts!

When I figured out the the electric meter was whizzing around when literally everything in the house was 'Turned Off', I started tracking the consumption and found 'Off' didn't mean not sucking power.
'Off' means 'Stand By' most of the time, so I started wiring in switches to shut off outlets and the meter stopped spinning.

By using timers I turn on what I'm using, it shuts down automatically after use, and on the TV, it's a 'Sleep' timer.

Common sense tells you with better insulation your hearing and cooling doesn't escape..
But I researched heating system to see what was most efficient, and that turned out to be radiant floor heat.
The wife likes warm floors, so she likes it.

Heat rises, so heating the floor heat the room evenly, and it's low impact so efficient.
The 'Boiler' doesn't actually boil, just a fluid heater and the fluid doesn't have to be much above room temp, so it doesn't waste a lot of energy in the conversion process.
Since heat rises, you don't need a crap load of insulation under it.

I just tried to figure out what was using or wasting energy I paid for and stop the hemorrhage.
When I built, I tried to fix from scratch what I couldn't practically get to in retrofit.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> That's the point of *the dog pack* isn't it, to get threads edited, locked or removed entirely?


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Recently there have been sales on LED Light Bulbs which brings the price down to $1 per bulb... ok they are just the basic LED Bulbs, not the smart ones but for a buck, it takes little time to recover the cost. 

Radiant Heating IS a godsend and a wonderful thing for an old duffer like me with a lot of physical injuries & arthritis. So nice to climb into a "Warm Bed" that is the same temp as everything else in the house. I used a DIY Setup which was VERY Cost effective and I am totally tickled with it. REF: http://www.theradiantcompany.com/ I did go way over code on the slab with 4" of Insulation as opposed to 2" as required by code. It does help to keep the slab temps up through winter and keep it cooler in summer.

IoT / Smart Devices can be a good thing too for saving energy and controlling various devices like switches, plugs and even light bulbs themselves. Additionally, more things are going "smart" BUT there is a catch and a BIGGY ! Samsung SmartThings are cheap & work well BUT you have to use their APP and register online with your phone to use it. Samsung wants access to everything on your phone, email, address book, browser history, camera & even your GPS. They make claims as to why BUT they do not need 90% of that info, so what are they doing with it and who are they selling it to ? BE CAUTIOUS & BE AWARE of the inherent security risk these "Apps" present. NOTE that alternative versions of software are available that do not require such intrusiveness. One Point on Smart Plugs is now many can actually monitor & report how much power the attached device is using which is quite beneficial if your chasing power waste. NB: Now you can even get "Smart Panels " in your house where every circuit in the panel is monitored & controlled, check out Schneider Electric and Eaton for example.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I'm not going to go with anything that TRANSMITS data.
My inverter keeping track of power production and usage stored locally is one thing, not technophobic, I have privacy issues with some company uploading it.

I also looked at 'Fail Safe', if the system crashes (I drop phone in river while fishing) I want my stuff to work.
I know full well mechanical, even digital timers, breakers, etc have a built in function life.
The mechanical breaker points have erosion, mechanical timers have moving parts that will eventually fail, electronic timers (solid state) will eventually fail, it's the sheer number of cycles they give for the price they cost, and the rare failures that make them attractive to me.

I'm fond of motion sensor switches, open the closet door and the light comes on and shuts off 30 seconds after the door closes, enter a stock room (or pantry) and the light comes on when I have my hands full.
I know these suck a little power, but they are just so handy.

Since I finally got to do what I wanted when I built, there is up to 15 vertical feet of glass in the front of the house, so interior area lighting went on a photo eye light sensor.
We had a couple relative children living with us, and I noticed they turned on light automatically, and rarely if ever turned on off, so you can flip the switch for hours in the daytime when there is good light, and nothing happens.
Same idea and light sensor that every outdoor security light has.

My wife doesn't like coming into a dark house, so a motion sensor picks up anything on the front patio and turns on outside & inside lights that stay on about 5 minutes. Those are also wired to the light sensor and don't activate when the sun is doing the job.

Some people 'Hyper Mile' to see how many miles they can get from a gallon of gas,
Some people install 'Tuners' to see how few miles, or how much smoke they can make from a gallon of fuel,
Some people spend hours watching political far wing propaganda,
Some people spend hours on facebag and other sites trying to get 'Likes',
My hobby is seeing if I can make the system more efficient or durable.

I spend hours thinking and doing to be more energy efficient/self sufficient since energy costs me money.
If I want to spend money, I walk down to the gun range (second fastest way to turn money into noise) or fire up a racecar (fastest way to turn money into noise).

Like I said before, I'm looking for durability & serviceability over time opposed to "Convenience" or remote accessable, more durable farm tractor than race car...
I'm in it for the long haul here, 20+ years already, another potential 20 years to go.
Not everyone is going to learn how to build there own off grid power, not everyone is going to buy extras of what they have set up right now for future back-ups, not everyone is going to install color coded quick connectors on 'Spares' so failed parts can be quickly changed, not everyone is going to install test LEDs on those parts so function can be tested and fails located without specialized tools...

A 5¢ LED, with a 2¢ resistor and maybe a 5¢ switch will test any electrical part on the DC side of the system, battery de-sulfidators, charge controllers, etc wired with idiot proof connectors makes finding and changing any one failed component child's play,
If I'm disabled or dead, almost ANYONE can pick up the laminated maintiance/failure tree chart with diagrams and follow instructions with 'Pictures'...
As idiot proof as I can make it.

I like to keep up with the techno-whizz bang stuff, but I have to assess it for my application, and decide if it fits...
Since I'm here nearly 100% of the time, remote access isn't high on my list of things needed.
Too many failure points also, lost phone, internet access down, software glitches, software command server down, remote access to my stuff by glitch or bad actor...

I don't even use the BMS in the newer inverters for much other than monitoring, if that fails, I'm stuck with no power (off grid) until the unit is shipped, repaired, returned.
I use it as a back up to stand alone systems I have backup for already handy and waiting. It's a backup to my backup...
In the military we had a saying, "One is none, two is one, failure is not an option".
Since the system paid for itself in about 9 years, even with all the mistakes I made in the learning curve, there is cash available for buying backup pieces & parts when they are available on the surplus market for cheap, no sense in NOT having some backup when it's stupid cheap, and common at the time.
Some of the stuff I have is 20+ years old and no longer available from manufacturer for any price...
Relays switches I used THEN now come in 10 or 20 packs for the same price I paid back then for ONE, so no sense in not ordering the 10 or 20 pack... Same with relay sockets, while stuff like lightening protectors have got better, so I don't stock so many of them...

The housings (electrical boxes) are top quality, and use quick change breakers, those breakers are expensive when bought retail, but every enclosure has spares, same quality, but low dollar on the surplus market in the bottom of the enclosure box.
Spares at the point of failure ready for use and won't be lost or broken in common storage.

The test circuit idea, LED, Resistor, Switch was born of hating to run to the shop, find the necessary speciality tools, drag them up to the battery bank, sometimes several trips back and forth as I find issues, so for around 10¢ per component in the system I simply put a quick tester on each component, building them on rainy days or snow days when I had dead time.
Takes about 5 minutes to solder it up, and for 10¢-15¢ it's not a budget buster, I can put one on every component in the system with no issues.
Stupid simple to make, stupid simple to install, saves a crap load of time since you don't have to unbox or remove insulation to use it, and it works for checks/tests when the system is connected and running, no down time/reduced capacity for maintenance checks.
Anything that makes MY life easier (within reason) is a good thing for me!


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> 'm not going to go with anything that TRANSMITS data.


100% BANG ON there my friend. In my case, it is NOT an option in ay case, as I am offgrid and off network until I want to turn on the satellite for outside communications. As a result, I did a lot of digging and found a simple enough answer... Home Assistant running on a Raspberry Pi. a Whole $30 dollar investment there and home assistant is FREE too and no need for internet access to use it (unless "you" choose to do so).

REF to Home Assistant and info on it. Pretty simple stuff really and can be leveraged to help different folks with different needs.
https://www.home-assistant.io/getting-started/


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Steve_S said:


> 100% BANG ON there my friend. In my case, it is NOT an option in ay case, as I am offgrid and off network until I want to turn on the satellite for outside communications. As a result, I did a lot of digging and found a simple enough answer... Home Assistant running on a Raspberry Pi. a Whole $30 dollar investment there and home assistant is FREE too and no need for internet access to use it (unless "you" choose to do so).
> 
> REF to Home Assistant and info on it. Pretty simple stuff really and can be leveraged to help different folks with different needs.
> https://www.home-assistant.io/getting-started/


I can loose $30 in the sofa cushions so that's cheap enough!

A LOT of guys I communicate with on the internet are into Pi for a BUNCH of things.
One guy built a CNC table top mill that finishes rifle lower receiver forgings into functional receivers using stepper motors and Pi just to teach himself to do practical mechanical application. It actually worked OK, but as a machinist, the function was OK, but the finish left something to be desired...

I WISH I was more educated on the subject, but I'm gears & wires, what computer guys call 'Hardware'.
I FULLY understand the electro-magnetic link, I can zero point proximity sensors to locate parts to within about .001" or 1/10 of a degree of rotation to trigger a machine function precisely without physical or electrical contact, but someone else has to do programming of stepper motors or dual plane machine heads, etc.
If it's mechanical, electrical, or a combo of both, I'm your man.

If it's freely articulating with CNC control, I can't write the code.
I can't even get the CAD to Code programs to work... Digital just doesn't like me... 
About a close as I have mastered is PLCs. Open/Closed circuit gates isn't exactly 'Whiz-Bang' technology.
I've sworn for the last 3 winters I would learn, but then we got busy in the shop and air didn't have time...


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Something I had to teach the guys that came to work for me, there is ALWAYS a mechanical overrun/deadman switch in every proximity switch bracket.
Since we build production machines a lot of the time, and when wiring PLCs or figuring out programming, the moving parts CAN (and often will) overrun.

Gating/wiring failures, programming failure, proximity switch failure, all that allows moving parts to overrun operational limits, so a dead man on the same bracket as the proximity stop sensor saves a LOT of expensive parts!

*A 50¢ Switch and 5¢ of wiring stops thousands of dollars of machine from eating itself.*

When my CNC guys got here, they had absloute confidence in the 'Computer' but had never designed and built from scratch before, just did CNC on pre-built and calibrated machines, someone else crashed them and worked out the kinks...
When we build, EVERYTHING gets a dead man switch wired to the power relays, when something overruns, EVERYTHING STOPS.
A PLC will tell you exactly which switch opened and stopped the machine, so the fail isn't hard to find, and it gives the programmers an exact location to go look for the code glitch, and it gives the mechanical guys a failure point to stat looking for bad proximity switches, etc.

You can do exactly the same thing with a test light or multi-meter, but you have to check every switch no matter where it's located on the machine.
Second best to a PLC is a Red LED drawing attention to the switch that got tripped...
Saves a lot of time and is dirt cheap.


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