# Geothermal (Ground-Source) Systems under $5K



## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

In this thread I would like to show How to build a reliable Geothermal (Ground-Source) Heating and Cooling Systems under $5K.

*You can choose between these two options:*
1. DIY Kits: https://sites.google.com/site/modernwaterboilers/home/geothermal-heat-pump-diy-kits

2. or you can buy all necessary components for your system from separate sources: https://sites.google.com/site/modernwaterboilers/home/geothermal-ground-source-system-under-5k

All comments and suggestions are welcomed.

Boris Romanov


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

For your location in NY how deep is the frost-line?

Our frost-line normally reaches 4 to 5 foot deep every winter.


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

ET1 SS said:


> For your location in NY how deep is the frost-line?...


About 30" - very close to this data:









The FROST PENETRATION DATA is posted here: http://www.wbdg.org/ccb/DOD/UFC/ufc_3_301_01.pdf (TABLE *E-2*)

Boris Romanov


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Boris said:


> About 30" ...


When the temp at 4 foot below grade is below freezing. It is difficult to get much warmth at 8 foot below grade.


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

ET1 SS said:


> When the temp at 4 foot below grade is below freezing. It is difficult to get much warmth at 8 foot below grade.


Hope, the official information below will change your mind.

"Shallow ground temperatures are relatively constant throughout the United States, so geothermal heat pumps (GHPs) can be effectively used almost anywhere."
http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/choosing-and-installing-geothermal-heat-pumps

"Depending on latitude, ground temperatures range from 45Â°F (7Â°C) to 75Â°F (21Â°C). Like a cave, this ground temperature is warmer than the air above it during the winter and cooler than the air in the summer. The GHP takes advantage of this by exchanging heat with the earth through a ground heat exchanger."
http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/geothermal-heat-pumps

In fact modern heat pumps are very efficient even in a cold climate. See COPs for a low temperature of the Entering Source Fluid:
http://www.bosch-climate.us/files/201208311803480.TWSeries_SpecGuide_REV03-12.pdf

Example: "...A geothermal heat pump operating at COP_heating 3.5 *provides 3.5 units of heat for each unit of energy consumed *(i.e. 1 kWh consumed would provide 3.5 kWh of output heat)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance

In your case you can consider about 8 feet deep trench.


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

Example for the Bosch Geothermal Heat Pumps (http://www.bosch-climate.us/product...osch-geothermal-water-to-water/tw-series.html)









And I'm sure we can rely on this info: *ENERGY STAR Most Efficient 2014 &#8212; Geothermal Heat Pumps*
"The ENERGY STAR Most Efficient 2014 designation recognizes the most efficient products among those that qualify for the ENERGY STAR program. *These exceptional geothermal heat pumps represent the leading edge in energy efficient products this year*."
https://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=most_efficient.me_geothermal_heat_pumps

Boris Romanov


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

There have been a lot of mini-split heat-pump systems installed in my region.

They get a lot of hype.

There is a new apartment complex 25 miles from me that installed heat-pumps as their sole source of heat. They are tied up in court now, as they need a heating system for winter. It has dragged on two years now. We are not sure if the complex will be installing a heating system anytime soon.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

We have a weekly radio program here, called: "Hot and Cold". The hosts are a state University physics professor and an insulation contractor. They interview various people in the industry, tour project sites, and discuss various methods of home heating.

Heat-pump systems are a regular topic on their program.

They made a project house, that is designed to use multiple methods of heating. It has passive solar [that heats air which circulates through a 100-ton stone mass under the house], and active solar-thermal panels, and a woodstove, and a heat-pump system. It is one of the state university's project for comparing various methods of home heating and showing how their benefits differ.


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## Esprit (Dec 17, 2011)

98% of our heat comes from a 18000 btu heat pump. Our house is 1600 sq feet and 125 years old. Best investment I've ever made. It costs me $150/month to heat the house. I bought a Friedrich mini split unit. Friedrich is basically a commercial version of a Fujitsu heat pump. It will still put out heat below -25c (and we've had -26C days). The only time we've needed an alternate source is if it's very cold and the humidity is high. We had a -17C day with 85% humiditiy and the system kept going into defrost mode every 45 minutes (which lasts about 15 mins).


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

ET1 SS said:


> There have been a lot of mini-split heat-pump systems installed in my region.
> 
> They get a lot of hype.
> 
> There is a new apartment complex 25 miles from me that installed heat-pumps as their sole source of heat. They are tied up in court now, as they need a heating system for winter. It has dragged on two years now. We are not sure if the complex will be installing a heating system anytime soon.



In general, mini-split heat-pump systems *are air source heat pumps*. 
In fact there are a new generation of air source heat pumps for cold climates (hiper heat pumps), but they are still too expensive and they do not have domestic hot water preheater:
http://www.mitsubishipro.com/media/226460/h2i_brochure.pdf

My goal is to show how to get a reliable heating/cooling system (plus domestic hot water preheater for some models of ground source heat pumps) for a very reasonable price.
*Therefore in this thread I would like to talk about ground source heat pumps ONLY.*

*Examples of ground source heat pumps with domestic hot water preheater:*
*ClimateMasterÂ® Tranquility TEP Series with iGate&#8482; Control and Integrated Hot Water Generator to pre-heat domestic hot water*









*Hydro-Temp VStar Series with RS Pro Control and Patented Hot Water Recovery/Generation System for 100% DHW or Radiant Applications.*









Boris Romanov


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

A large portion of the cost of a geothermal heat pump system is burying the loops of pipe in the ground. You can save this money if you can put in an open loop system. The water table here varies from 3 to 4 feet below the surface. I could put in a sandpoint well and pump up all the water I need for a heat pump. I should also have a second well away from the first to put the water back into the ground. I would use energy to pump the water out of the ground but the closed loop system would use energy to circulate the water through the pipe so it's close to a push.

A heat pump system will not work without electricity. I heat with wood and have not been able to justify the initial cost of a heat pump.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Boris said:


> In general, mini-split heat-pump systems *are air source heat pumps*.
> 
> ... My goal is to show how to get a reliable heating/cooling system (plus domestic hot water preheater for some models of ground source heat pumps) for a very reasonable price.
> 
> *Therefore in this thread I would like to talk about ground source heat pumps ONLY.*


I was not aware that there were any 'air source' heat-pump systems.

I have only seen projects where they are testing 'ground source' heat-pumps.

As I have said we have a weekly radio program that discusses them. And there is a large apartment complex not far from me that is trying to make use of them. These are strictly piping in the ground, or into wells systems.




Thank you for clarifying about 'Air Source' and 'Ground Source', I was not aware that 'Air Source' was possible.


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

ET1 SS said:


> I was not aware that there were any 'air source' heat-pump systems...


Looks like you forgot your initial statement: "There have been a lot of *mini-split heat-pump systems* installed in my region." (From your post #7).

See PROPER definition of mini-split heat pumps here:
- "Mini Split Heat Pumps are systems that allow the freon to run in reverse via a reversing solenoid. This allows the freon to produce heating or cooling *to the indoor unit*." http://www.minisplitwarehouse.com/category/mini_split_heat_pump?gclid=CNbTxu3QzLwCFelxOgodNB0AL
- Introduction to Mini-split Heat Pumps: http://www.etccreations.com/fujitsu-rls
So, in general, mini-split heat-pump systems are air-source heat pumps.


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

Nimrod said:


> A large portion of the cost of a geothermal heat pump system is burying the loops of pipe in the ground...
> 
> A heat pump system will not work without electricity. I heat with wood and have not been able to justify the initial cost of a heat pump.


I cannot support your statements.
Example #1:
The volume of 4 trenches 100 feet long, 3 feet wide and 6 feet deep are equal to 7200 cubic feet. 
The volume of one trench 20 feet long, 3 feet wide and 6 feet deep is equal to 360 cubic feet. 
Total: 7200+ 360 = 7560 cubic feet:









In addition we have to keep in mind an excavator productivity - about 3,000 cubic feet per hour. 
*My point - ask a contractor to be reasonable.*
In my area contractors charge: $75-$80 per hour for a tractor and $100 per hour for the tracked excavator. Plus transportation (delivery) cost in case of small jobs...

Of course "A heat pump system will not work without electricity." 
But, as you can see here: https://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=most_efficient.me_geothermal_heat_pumps the Lifetime Costs to Operate (estimated at 15 years) are very low for the ENERGY STAR Geothermal Heat Pumps.

And more importantly, as I mentioned earlier: "...A geothermal heat pump operating at COP_heating 3.5 provides 3.5 units of heat for each unit of energy consumed (i.e. 1 kWh consumed would provide 3.5 kWh of output heat)." 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance
*So, modern geothermal heat pumps with COP 4 or 5.6 for 1 kWh consumed would provide 4 or 5.6 kWh of output heat respectively!*...

I also like wood stoves, but they cannot cool your house in the Summer.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Boris said:


> Looks like you forgot your initial statement: "There have been a lot of *mini-split heat-pump systems* installed in my region." (From your post #7).


I do not have any clue of what you think I forgot.

There have been a lot of mini-split heat-pump systems installed in my region. Both State University projects to see if they can make these things work here; and by out-of-state developers trying to run scams on the locals.

Again I have no clue of what you think I have forgotten.

THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF MINI-SPLIT HEAT-PUMP SYSTEMS INSTALLED IN MY REGION.

Do I need to repeat this again for you?

You have repeated me, I have repeated me. If this a game? 



From every discussion I have heard discussing the use of mini-split heat-pumps systems, the big 'break-through' has been the tech of using variable speed motors. Instead of huge power spikes when they turn on, these can run continuously at low speed. 

They get into detailed discussions of how the physics of the coolant changes as the temps change. Making these units more efficient.

It is all about how deep in the ground you can get the loops [or else if your using drilled wells trying to tap the warmth of the aquifer].



When you bring up Air Source, you are the first I have heard talk about doing anything above ground with mini-split heat-pumps.

But, I am only an amateur who listens to local experts every week. [and who reads the news paper for the failures of commercial properties where developers have installed them]. I am certainly not an expert myself.


You are the first I have heard mentioning any Air Source with mini-split heat-pumps. I have only heard/seen them used for loops in the ground.

I can repeat that for you also, if you need it repeated.



I have no idea why you want to argue about this.


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

ET1 SS said:


> ...
> But, I am only an amateur who listens to local experts every week...
> You are the first I have heard mentioning any Air Source with mini-split heat-pumps. *I have only heard/seen them used for loops in the ground...*
> I have no idea why you want to argue about this.


In my opinion, you have to use the proper terminology:
- "Mini Split Heat Pumps are systems that allow the freon to run in reverse via a reversing solenoid. This allows the freon to produce heating or cooling to the indoor unit." http://www.minisplitwarehouse.com/ca...CFelxOgodNB0AL
- Introduction to Mini-split Heat Pumps: http://www.etccreations.com/fujitsu-rls
Once again, in general, mini-split heat-pump systems are air-source heat pumps.
And you can forward my arguments to your " local experts".


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## jcatblum (Dec 15, 2009)

We have a 5 ton Bosch unit inside, cost $12,000 up front. (DH did ran the duct work to save on cost, but the $12k included all our supplies). Our electric co-op paid for the loop. Also had a rebate for $2250 from our electric coop ($450 per ton). Also got a $5000 back on our taxes. We have now reached the cap on our home energy tax credits. 
So total was $4750 & only took DH 2 days of labor. My complaint is the unit is loud & the lines ate up space I hoped to put my front porch. I know not everyone has an electric coop that offers this kind of program, but check into it just in case it is in your area.


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## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

A good article I ran across the other day......http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomkonr...s-a-threat-to-geothermal-heat-pump-suppliers/

It gives some comparisons from ASHP vs GSHP. 


From the article....*".While variable speed air source heat pumps can be competitive with geothermal heat pumps in retrofit situations and smaller, better insulated buildings and less extreme climates, GHPs remain the most efficient way to heat and cool a building."*

In my opinion which ever way you go they are almost like computers,the time you get them installed the technology has changed and there are even more improvements to them. 

So Boris if you go this route are you going to use the hot water side as a pre-heater for your HP water heater ?


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

jcatblum,

Thank you for your useful reply.

Could you please provide us more details about your system?
- is your GHP (specific model) among the pumps from this list https://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=most_efficient.me_geothermal_heat_pumps
- is your Lifetime Cost to Operate (divided by 15) close to the data from the link above?
- more details about your loops (materials, total length, pipe diameter, shape of the loops and so on),
- noise level. This is my concern too.

*The very useful owner's testimony (includingis noise level description and demonstration) is posted here: *[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkEuIMv95nA[/ame]

Boris Romanov


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

Tarheel said:


> ... Boris if you go this route are you going to use the hot water side as a pre-heater for your HP water heater ?


The data from my electric bills totally confirmed my approach to heat my house thanks to the modern technologies and ground source energy.
My next goal is to build 2-3 ton system below $3K, therefore I'm looking for a pump in this price range:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Trane-T1GX-...587?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item54049ca503
New 3 Ton GHP JUST for US $1,499.99! (Will be sold in one day)
And as you can see from the Pump description - "No hot water option". 

Boris Romanov 

P.S.
My recent electric bills: https://sites.google.com/site/modernwaterboilers/home/my-electric-bills


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

Tarheel said:


> A good article I ran across the other day......http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomkonr...s-a-threat-to-geothermal-heat-pump-suppliers/
> ...


I totally disagree with this statement.

In my opinion the above mentioned article is based on the false data (false calculation) and shows author's lack of knowledge.

Just one example (my comments on this article): 

"Tom,

In your new (modified) calculation you mentioned &#8220;Tax credit (10%) = $1,350.&#8221;

Nevertheless, as I know a homeowner can claim a credit for up to 10 percent of qualifying project costs but not to exceed a &#8220;total combined credit limit of $500 for all tax years after 2005&#8243;. See form Form 5695

In addition, why in your article you did not disclose that according to the 26 U.S. Code Â§ 25C &#8211; Nonbusiness energy property &#8211; &#8220;Termination&#8221; section: This section shall not apply with respect to any property placed in service.. after December 31, 2013.&#8221;?

In contrast, the &#8220;30 percent of the qualified geothermal heat pump&#8221; tax credit is still active!

Boris Romanov"

And author's (Tom's) reply: "Because I have not filed my taxes yet, *and did not realize that.*.."
http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomkonr...s-a-threat-to-geothermal-heat-pump-suppliers/

This is one of the reasons why I prefer not to trust private money managers. In fact, Tom Konrad is a private money manager too.


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## jcatblum (Dec 15, 2009)

Boris- to try & answer your questions
Could you please provide us more details about your system?
- is your GHP (specific model) among the pumps from this list https://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm...mal_heat_pumps
Mine is the Bosh 6000 series
- is your Lifetime Cost to Operate (divided by 15) close to the data from the link above?
I am not certain on the operating cost honestly. our place was new construction & we have had the unit running since July. Overall I have no complaints on my electric bill. 
- more details about your loops (materials, total length, pipe diameter, shape of the loops and so on),
Our loop is is 5 drops that are each 225 ft deep. I think the pipe is 1.5 or 2 inches, it is the shape of a star. Each point on the star is where they drilled a hole. (hope that makes sense). 
-noise level. This is my concern too.
We were told the unit hummed & would be loud if it kicked into 2 phase. However, no mater if it is heating or cooling in phase 1 or 2 it is equally loud. You always hear it kick on & run. It isn't too loud to tolerate & I can live with it, but I don't love it. 

We enjoy the monthly savings & our house is always a comfortable temperature. Also for us we could not have gotten a regular central heat air unit for anywhere near the cost that the geothermal unit was.


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

jcatblum said:


> ...
> We were told the unit hummed & would be loud if it kicked into 2 phase. However, no mater if it is heating or cooling in phase 1 or 2 it is equally loud. You always hear it kick on & run. It isn't too loud to tolerate & I can live with it, but I don't love it...


I would recommend you to contact Bosch, if warranty terms for your model and Bosch promises/obligations are similar to these:
- "10-year limited parts and labor warranty."
- "*Quiet Operation* To provide the best in quiet comfort, the TA Series is equipped with an exclusive sound package. The compressor is surrounded by a multidensity sound blanket and the units come standard with a floating base pan, which separates the vibrating compressor from the exterior cabinet.
The compressor is mounted on a heavy-gauge steel base pan that floats on a unique high density, visco-elastic material, reducing sound and vibration to an absolute minimum."
http://www.bosch-climate.us/files/201304241955190.TA-Split-customer_info-4714.pdf

Boris Romanov


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## jcatblum (Dec 15, 2009)

Thanks Boris, I actually haven't even tried to contact them. I will add that to the to do list. I noticed the model under mine on the link above is listed as whisper quiet. The noise level far exceeds any CHA unit we have ever had. I would say this is like the noise of a window unit, or louder. DH says it is due to not having an outside unit & it doesn't seem to bother him on the same level.

I also edited above, our loop is 5 drops that are each 225 ft deep, when I read bac over my post I don't think that was clear. I think the guys that did the drops where there about 3 days. DD said they have the easiest job ever. They sit in their trucks & just get out every now & then & use the water hose or look at the mud.


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

Tarheel,

As you can see below - normally, GHPs with HWG (hot water generator) are more expensive.
Nevertheless, Ebay price for a new unit is very reasonable:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bosch-3-ton...lorida-heat-pump-pex-hdpe-loops-/251456054680

And rebates from many utility companies are reasonable too. For example - rebate from my utility company: "...*up to $1,000 per ton* for energy efficient residential Geothermal heating and cooling systems."
http://www.renewnewyorkstate.org/CentralHudson-HomeEnergySavings.html
Plus federal Tax credit!

Useful video:
Geothermal heat pump hot water generator (HWG) desuperheater piping:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S8S4Zxjazg[/ame]

Boris Romanov


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