# Any Michigan Solar installations?



## Dstrnad (Aug 9, 2014)

I was wondering if anyone had any experience with solar. So far no one that I have talked to locally really has given any real numbers. People seem real vague when asking about production and answer with, oh it produced 50% of our power or 80% or 100, but fail to mention what that is. I would like to know some local installs with approximate annual production data. Based on my address I get 4.2 sun hours per day. So a 5k system should average just over 20k a day minus efficiency losses. I get the feeling that some of the people I have talked to are uncomfortable telling me, because their systems are not living up to expectations and are uncomfortable talking about it. Any real life data out there? I'm near Traverse City, MI


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## dehendrick (Aug 7, 2014)

I'd like to follow this. I'm near Ann Arbor and am looking for info.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Dstrnad, the Solar Industry is very much like the PC / Clone market was in the late 80's early 90's. 

You have little shops where people are experts in what they do because it's something they are passionate about. 

You have other shops that are only interested in a certain segment (Grid-Tie with big cash incentives) and don't go "off grid". 

You have shops where they specialize in Off-Grid and don't deal with Grid-Tie. 

Of course there is those that can talk the talk but trip they minute they try the walk.

Then there is the big Bugaboo lurking in the shadows that tosses a wrench in it all... No two people / families use power the same way. People in general are reluctant to talk about their power usage, why I don't know... it's almost as bad as discussing bathroom habits ! Really. There are folks out there who WILL talk about it openly but not that many surprisingly... 

For example in my case... also in a 4.2 Sun Hrs per day zone... I've done my math and triple checked it all and know that being as frugal as I am, I use 3kWh per day. My heat is LPG / Wood, cooking is LPG and I have an Eccotemp FVI-12-LP for hot water which has 120v electronic controls (low power use). I need a minimum of 2kW of Solar Panel, 8x 6v-420aHr batteries, 2kW Pure Sine Inverter / Charger (Min) and of course a Generator. This is a reasonable system for my needs in a Full Time, Off-Grid Cabin. 

The numbers for 3 kWh/day work out to 2.3kW of solar PV in winter at 60-degree tilt, and 1.1kW in summer at 30-degree tilt. With the pump and other loads, the total is around 2.6 kWh/day (this also includes some stand-by losses for the inverter), or 80 kWh/month. To produce that in our general area requires 970 Watt of PV modules placed at 30-degree tilt-angle facing south, with an MPPT controller in summer, and 1980 Watt at 60-degree tilt in the middle of winter.

On the battery side, 3 days of autonomy (the usual design standard for off-grid) requires 642 Ah at 24 Volt, or 321 Ah at 48 Volt. That assumes that usually the batteries are discharged no more than 50% (they can do 80% DOD without a problem, but you don't want to do that too often as it cuts into life-expectancy for the batteries). For a system this size 24 Volt would be a good Voltage. 

Vendors: The confusion continues... 
I have reviewed numerous "packages & kits" over the past 12 months, looked at specs and done my research, so armed with that I asked for several quotes. Some local vendors, some from 2 neighbouring big cities (closest is 4 hrs drive) and of course E-Bay / Amazon vendors. I won't get into the online stuff because that is a dog's breakfast of variations. I nailed my config down and know what I need & want, so with that spec I sent out I got back quotes from $8,000.00 to $21,000.00 !!! YEAH, SHOCKER !! But to be honest, the 21K system used all Schneider Conext electronics & Tubular Gel block battery pack, which is the Rolls Royce type of config.

First, get a really good handle on your usage and where you can cut it down... saving kWh is much cheaper & easier than generating them ! Get a Kill-A-Watt metre and check your stuff out properly... Is your fridge, stove, dryer, hot water system efficient & practical ? Watch for Phantom Loads lurking in your home.

Because I'm moving to a Cabin I am building, I downsized & upgraded... I went from an old fridge that used 150kWh a month to a new EnergyStar one that uses 312kWh a YEAR ! Dumped the big electric water tank (4kW) for my On-Demand Eccotemp propane.

Systems are also sized & priced according to type, such as Grid-Tie, Off-grid, Grid-Tie with Battery backup etc... Incentives apply to Grid-Tie, in many cases they have certain limits / caps and now Power Co's want to charge people for generating power with hookup charges and back feed fees.. The greed scheming is underway... OFF-GRID by it's very nature of independence from the "wire" is the most costly because of the Batteries, Gen-Set and extras that it entails but it is coming down fast... 

Hope it helps 
Steve


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## Deeplines (Dec 7, 2013)

Dstrnad - I'm not from up there, I'm done in the Florida panhandle. I'm sure this is close to apples and oranges but maybe it will help you some. 

I think your #'s are correct. 20 kw - 15% would be about 17 kw a day average. 

I'm not for sure on the exact amount but I think my area is 5.39 hours a day avg. I have a 6Kw system and I pretty much avg. 25Kw a day. Just a guess but I think you would be looking at an avg of 17kw a day or 510KW a month. 

Maybe someone from your area can give you a more accurate # but that is my guess.

I agree with Steve S also. Get a Kill-a-watt meter and measure your appliances. I can't even measure my dyer and Central air with it but I can look at my meter and see the system can't keep up with it. LOL!!! It doesn't take long to do most appliances like TV, lights, fans, chargers, computers and the like. Just figure out how much you use them a day and add up your total to get your days usage. You will have to let the kill-a-watt run for a week on your fridge and freezer to get a more accurate number but should get you close on how much it uses a day.

Here is a good website:
http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/

Don't forget to check the boxes on your credits and rebates to find out a true cost of your electricity. Mine came out to 2 cents a kw, without incentives it was 18 cents a kw. Of course you appreciation can't be added into it but that brings it down even more.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

We don&#8217;t have it. But, people who do are quick to point out that it works real well in the winter because of the glare off the snow.


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## MIfan (May 14, 2015)

I am just south of you. NE of Cadillac. I purchased a Pole barn style home that is currently set up to run off of a Honda 6500 watt Generator. The home wiring goes to two 50 amp breakers which goes to a 220Hz 4 prong dryer style plug into the generator. I can generally run the generator on the "ECO" mode which I believe is about half power. My biggest draw is the submersible water pump which sometimes will shut off the generator if say the propane central heating comes on. My alternative energy plan is to start with 2K of solar and a wind generator from Missouri wind and solar. I am thinking around 700 ah battery bank, probably the Trojans. I have been slowly replacing CFLs with LEDS and will install a wood stove shortly. My most vexing issue is how to wire the house to a inverter. There is a guy out of Grand Rapids selling 115watt panels for $92, less for a pallet of 20 and golf cart dealer in Farwell selling Trojans (don't know which) for $78. That solar panel angle info posted earlier will be helpful.


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## Dstrnad (Aug 9, 2014)

Thanks for the info. I will probably use the guy in grand rapids for the panels. Seems very helpful, decent price, and somewhat local. I question his actual long term experience, but seems knowledgeable and has them installed at his place. I also saw the golf cart batteries, but I can buy the 6 v 370 amp hr floor scrubber batteries for around $200 including core and warranty.


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