# How to live on one acre or less



## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I wanted to ask you all to give me ideas on how one can build a somewhat sustainable food source on about 1/2 to 1 acre. I'm thinking what systems of having small livestock and using the waste from one species to feed another or to grow crops that feed livestock as well as people are possible? What do you all know?  Let's assume that zoning is not an issue and that there are adequate sources of water, the soil is ok to start with - just a basic acre of land - what would YOU do with it to provide yourself and family with food and what else you might do to provide other things you consider important. I'm looking for systems that work together and recycle waste back into the system. I'm aware that no such system will be entirely sustainable. 

Thanks for your ideas!


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

No matter what size of place you have, you don't toss any thing.
We have just 1/10 or even less of an acre and our back yard is a garden. the waste from the garden goes to feed rabbits and any thing they cann't eat just goes in the compost. Their waste goes in the garden. If i had chickens they could share garden waste as well as eating worms for protien.
All our garbage is consitered for composting and here wood ashes from heating the house also go in the garden. Th rabbits also eat prunnings from the plum trees.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

How many rabbits can you grow a year on your 1/10 acre? Do you have to supplement with commercial feeds? If not, what do you feed them, if you could be more specific?

Thanks!


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## 10kids (Jun 24, 2010)

These folks are a fabulous example of doing it all on a small lot...http://urbanhomestead.org/journal/.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

My new chicken coup is 8*8ft with a shed roof, elevated 2 ft off ground....enough room for 30 birds....rabbit cages will be attached to the outside of building and then fencing around the bottom of the bunny cage legs...the bunnies waste grain which the chickens will clean up and the bunny poo attracts bugs/worms(more chix food)

If your lot is open plant fruit trees on the north side of your garden area so shading is not an issue...sunflowers too
Chickens will eat pumpkin/potato/apples etc so if you can grow extra and need winter feed...comfrey is an excellent easy growing food for bunnies as well wild apples

I'd add a couple of *well contained* goats if you like milk....a veal calf on extra goats milk is quick and easy...


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## QuiltingLady2 (Jan 3, 2007)

This link might interest you.

http://www.farmandranchliving.com/2007/DJ07/feature06.asp?RefURL=&KeyCode=&tdate=&PMCode=&OrgURL

*Urban Farmer
He Grows Crops in Other People&#8217;s Backyards*

Here's another interesting link.

http://urbanhomestead.org/journal/tag/living-off-the-grid/



> They harvest over 6,000 pounds of produce on less than a quarter of an acre, while running a popular website that is known around the world.


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

might check out robert hart's forest garden:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hart_(horticulturist)
http://www.spiralseed.co.uk/forestgarden/

he had about 1 acre or less, and grew lots of fruit and nut trees. also intermixed plantings in multiple stories, similar to permaculture concepts. multiple stories = trees, shrubs, vines, plants, root crops, all intermixed.

--sgl


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## cnichols (Jan 5, 2010)

Might I suggest the book the book "The Backyard Homestead". It's a wonderful book and well worth the investment. It has layouts and alot of information for utilizing property from one-tenth of an acre up to a full acre.


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## lisa's garden (Apr 1, 2010)

This is pretty interesting to me too, since we recently moved to a 1.03 acre, zoned ag property. We are just settling in and have a lot to do, so I can't tell you how well it is going for us. Eventually we hope to buy another acre or so behind us for extra pasture. I have rabbits and will be getting chickens after I return from a trip to visit family. I want to get turkeys and ducks too. I am also hoping to have goats. The neighbors raise organic hay with clover and timothy in it and I will be buying in hay from them. I also buy rabbit pellets, but hope to reduce the amount by the time my garden is up and running next year. Would love to bring in a weaned pig to fatten each year, but I might have rethink that since we have subdivisions across the road and I'm not sure how they will react yet.
Good luck and keep the ideas coming!


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## Kmac15 (May 19, 2007)

Don't forget the bees !!
They don't take up much room and really produce a great product.

We feed garden waste to our chickens, then turn around and use the compost from the coop in the garden. After the bees do their job we get great veggies and the circle goes again.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

We do buy feed for the rabbits, but sell enough of the rabbits to cover the feed purchased.


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## insocal (May 15, 2005)

Rabbits, chickens, orchard (dwarf trees), berries, veggie garden. Grow your chickens some feed corn to save on costs. Buy the bunnies grass hay and some alfalfa pellets if you must, but give them fresh food from the garden, too. Import nutrients. Never export them. Compost everything. Make woody trimmings into mulch with a chipper/shredder.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Aquaponics. You can raise more in a smaller area.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

The real and true key to doing a lot on a small space is to remember this one tiny bit of very wise advice I received:

The smaller the space, the more complicated the system, the more oversight it needs, the more cascading any failure will be.

Basically...when things have to be squeezed, like the DerVaes place, and very interlocked on a small space the more dangerous any deficiency or problem will be for the whole system. While you can do it, it requires a consistent level of care and feeding and a quick and firm reaction to any new problem.

Take a common problem like aphids. When you have a large area or two for gardens, widely spaced apart with lawn or chickens or what-not between, an infestation of aphids can be sequestered more easily and "bait" plants left infested in order to attract ladybugs into laying their eggs on the bait plants. When you have an infestation on a tightly packed square foot garden or vertical garden or whatever, then you have to get the infestation under control asap AND it will infect more plants more quickly. AND if you've set your chickens or rabbits up nearby, how will what you do for the aphids affect them? The fruit trees in pots all around it? The aquaponics set up to feed fish water to plants? So, you have to stay on your toes.

This was good advice to me and while I love my raised bed garden, I can see the difficulty should I try to do even more in that small area. So, the compromise is to figure out how tightly you can pack while still having the room to work the problems that will surely creep up.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

On about a acre here, I have rabbits, 27 fruit trees,3 kinds of grapes,Blueberries,2 kinds of Raspberries, herb garden,veggie garden,greenhouse,Silkies for brooding,heavy layers for eggs and meat, corn patch, vine patch. Have had fish. The rabbits are Angora for my spinning/weaving/knitting and their manure is for tea for the garden. I could eat them but do not like the meat. The rest of our land grows the hay for our cattle. The "yard" supplies far more of our food than the rest of our acreage.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

I have 1/4 of an acre, and part of that is taken up by my trailer and shed and opne side is too shady really to grow edibles (except for shadberry) 

rule #1, there is no need for lawn. I'm still working on getting rid of mine, slowly and surely.

I am limited on funds and time so it's a long process for me LOL!

rule #2 you will find that you can plant a LOT of semi dwarf and dwarf trees in the same space as one full sized tree will need.

rule #3. Waste nothing. Compost compost compost. 

rule #4 grow creatively. Have patio roof supports? thats a perfect spot to grow vining veggies or fruits. I have concord vines on mine and have grown gourds before there too.
You don't have to do strait rows. Grow UP. grow things on trellises and supports rather then letting them sprawl. Instead of using normal landscapeing, make your ornementals edible too--I have blueberries as shrugs, elderberries too, I have strawberries, cranberries, and simmiler edibles as ground covers. A lot of flowers are edible too. Herbs and flowers are great for attracting good bugs as well. 

grow small meats. I've raised rabbits and chickens here too, BUT I simply don't have the time to devote to them (I work 60-70 hours weeks) on top of everything else I do. Wasnt fair to the animals so when I butchered them didnt get more.


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## beaglebiz (Aug 5, 2008)

I was driving through town yesterday and noticed a half-double block that planted squash around the front flower bed.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I'm really enjoying the responses here, thanks!

I have a question - I find that as I get older I don't have as much energy and strength to work in the yard as I used to. Also where we live it gets really hot in the summer and I don't deal well with heat at all. We have about 2/3-3/4 of an acre of land with a house and a large garage on it. We do have ducks for eggs and meat (and pets too, horribly spoiled because at this time we can do that). We do have a veggie garden in raised beds and put in a "berry bed" this year with raspberries, rhubarb, currants and gooseberries. We have three semi dwarf apples trees, but rarely any apples because it freezes after they flower most years. We also have fruiting bushes and do plan to plant more, as well as an herb garden. 

There is a lot of lawn around though, which my husband is kind enough to water and mow. Everyone speaks of taking out the lawn, but what will replace it that won't be more work? I'm thinking that removing the lawn will leave us with a lot of weeds to deal with and I am not able to fully weed our our landscaping beds each year as it is. I find it difficult to keep up with weeding the garden and even harvesting - I groom dogs and end up pretty busy and tired in the summer. 

So... I'll add to the challenge - make this accessible for people that are older, slower or very busy!


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Its about converting the lawn into something productive...I'd dump the unproductive apple trees and get something better for your growing zone...I'm zone 4/5 but often buy things that are zone 3/4 to prevent frost from getting my trees...Liberty apple trees are ones that I got this year...Saskatoons....wild plums


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## FrontPorch (Mar 27, 2008)

cnichols said:


> Might I suggest the book the book "The Backyard Homestead". It's a wonderful book and well worth the investment. It has layouts and alot of information for utilizing property from one-tenth of an acre up to a full acre.


I agree this is an excellent book worth checking out.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I don't think I could bear to part with my Golden Delicious tree, its been with us a long time and is lovely. It is also shade for the ducks, its quite a tree. The other two would be easier though. I'm looking into trees that bloom later and would more reliably bloom and set fruit AFTER the late frosts we get.


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## stickinthemud (Sep 10, 2003)

http://www.thegreencenter.net/


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## 10kids (Jun 24, 2010)

We have eliminated many, many weeds by what I call "spot watering". The only thing we water via sprinkler any more is our corn and our pasture. This year I tried ollas for my tomatoes and they really work. They water the plants underground and we only fill them about once a week. We put moats around and inside our pole bean teepees and fill them with water once a day. We have a few raised beds and some things on a drip line. We are also gradually working toward a more "permaculture" set up. I cannot tell you how much we have learned from the Urban Homestead Dervaes Family.


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## Freeholder (Jun 19, 2004)

GrannyCarol said:


> I don't think I could bear to part with my Golden Delicious tree, its been with us a long time and is lovely. It is also shade for the ducks, its quite a tree. The other two would be easier though. I'm looking into trees that bloom later and would more reliably bloom and set fruit AFTER the late frosts we get.


Look into permaculture -- you should be able to plant some other perennials around and even under your large old Golden Delicious tree. 

Kathleen


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## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

Chickens and rabbits for main meat source. A 12 ga or bow for helping to thin the deer heard each fall (we are in a no rifle hunting state). Bee's for "bee pee" as my DD use to call it. Raised bed and container gardening, think square foot gardening. Most houses have a porch or deck, fill the edges with containers. Every year my steps are home to tomatoes and peppers in containers....red tomatoes on a green plant is as pretty as any flower to me. Dwarf fruit trees, berries along a fence line, etc. Big compost heap for everything and anything. Trailer and vehicle to pull it and make friends with a farmer (or two)....top dress your compost heaps as much as you can with free manure. Rabbits and chicken don't "drop" as much as cows, lol. With an acre I'd find space for wheat so I wouldn't have to rely on others as much.

Much of this we do on our 1/4 ac in town. But we are in a "no livestock" zone, so no rabbits, chicken or bees for us.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

BlueJuniperFarm said:


> Look into permaculture -- you should be able to plant some other perennials around and even under your large old Golden Delicious tree.
> 
> Kathleen


Yes... I've been thinking of moving my comfrey out of the raised garden beds and putting it under the apple tree. Its a very good feed for the ducks and they use that tree for shade. All I need to do is to figure out how to protect enough comfrey to keep growing and still let the ducks graze on it. My reading tells me that apple trees like comfrey and it draws up nutrients for the apple tree. I guess more wire surrounds - my goodness the ducks are a bit naughty on the landscaping... oh yah, its called "foraging". hehe


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## fetch33 (Jan 15, 2010)

GrannyCarol said:


> I'm really enjoying the responses here, thanks!
> 
> I have a question - I find that as I get older I don't have as much energy and strength to work in the yard as I used to. Also where we live it gets really hot in the summer and I don't deal well with heat at all. We have about 2/3-3/4 of an acre of land with a house and a large garage on it. We do have ducks for eggs and meat (and pets too, horribly spoiled because at this time we can do that). We do have a veggie garden in raised beds and put in a "berry bed" this year with raspberries, rhubarb, currants and gooseberries. We have three semi dwarf apples trees, but rarely any apples because it freezes after they flower most years. We also have fruiting bushes and do plan to plant more, as well as an herb garden.
> 
> ...


Check out this guys videos [ame]http://www.youtube.com/user/growingyourgreens#p/a/f/1/fNI782zIpz4[/ame]


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

The first thing I'd do is fence the perimeter with the tallest fence I could buy. Then get started on a garden, permaculture, and animals. You could put in some dwarf fruit trees, add berry bushes, fence an area for a pair of goats, build a chicken house and rabbit hutches or colony. 

For the goats, I'd consider putting a second fence inside the first to let the goats have access to the perimeter since they are browsers and prefer to keep moving as they eat. I'd probably put their shelter "barn" in the back center. You could use it not only as a shelter for them, but as a garden & storage shed. 

I'd work up a garden spot using cattle panels to make a smaller footprint for vines like squash, melons, beans, etc. When it comes to gardening, think vertical instead of horizontal to get much more in less space. 

Many years ago, mangles was a staple food for many animals. They can be fed to rabbits, chickens, goats, pigs, and even for humans. Just a few of them would go a long ways towards feeding the rabbits and chickens.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

We have almost 2 acres and raise chickens and goats. In my frontyard I have done edible landscaping, mainly herb gardens and some fruit trees. I plan on putting in some berry bushes next year around the front of the house. Our chickens get left overs and scraps from the garden. We do buy some food, but sell enough eggs to cover the cost of feed for the chickens and the goats. 

In our back yard we have the animals and our garden. We grow some feed corn and sunflowers to help with the cost of buying feed. We also live in the south and kudzu grows like crazy here. Kudzu is actually good feed for goats, as is bamboo.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

Spinner said:


> Many years ago, *mangles* was a staple food for many animals. They can be fed to rabbits, chickens, goats, pigs, and even for humans. Just a few of them would go a long ways towards feeding the rabbits and chickens.


Hello spinner,

What is "*mangles*"?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Ohio dreamer said:


> Chickens and rabbits for main meat source. A 12 ga or bow for helping to thin the deer heard each fall (we are in a no rifle hunting state). Bee's for "bee pee" as my DD use to call it. Raised bed and container gardening, think square foot gardening. Most houses have a porch or deck, fill the edges with containers. Every year my steps are home to tomatoes and peppers in containers....red tomatoes on a green plant is as pretty as any flower to me. Dwarf fruit trees, berries along a fence line, etc. Big compost heap for everything and anything. Trailer and vehicle to pull it and make friends with a farmer (or two)....top dress your compost heaps as much as you can with free manure. Rabbits and chicken don't "drop" as much as cows, lol. With an acre I'd find space for wheat so I wouldn't have to rely on others as much.
> 
> Much of this we do on our 1/4 ac in town. But we are in a "no livestock" zone, so no rabbits, chicken or bees for us.


About the only thing I could add is fishing equipment.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Mangles are a beet raised for livestock, I guess they get huge. I wonder if ducks like them?


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

CrashTestRanch said:


> Hello spinner,
> 
> What is "*mangles*"?


I might have spelled it wrong. I've seen it Mangle and Mangel. I think the first spelling is the old way (from old publications) and the current spelling is the second (from seed package.) I bought my seed at: http://rareseeds.com/cart/products/Mammoth_Red_Mangel_Beet-1307-130.html 

You plant them as soon as the ground is warm enough to work. Harvest after the first frost. The frost sweetens them. In the old days ranchers would turn the cows in to eat the tops, then dig the beet for storage and turn hogs in to root out any that were left in the ground. They are a good overall stock feed from the old days.


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

GrannyCarol said:


> Yes... I've been thinking of moving my comfrey out of the raised garden beds and putting it under the apple tree. Its a very good feed for the ducks and they use that tree for shade. All I need to do is to figure out how to protect enough comfrey to keep growing and still let the ducks graze on it. My reading tells me that apple trees like comfrey and it draws up nutrients for the apple tree. I guess more wire surrounds - my goodness the ducks are a bit naughty on the landscaping... oh yah, its called "foraging". hehe


A friend of mine got an old grocery cart from a local junkyard, with no wheels. He turned the cart up side down on top of his comfrey bed. He then had some to eat for himself, and the stock was protected. The bed was larger than the grocery cart so the chickens, and ducks could get at the rest.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

Spinner said:


> I might have spelled it wrong. I've seen it Mangle and Mangel. I think the first spelling is the old way (from old publications) and the current spelling is the second (from seed package.) I bought my seed at: http://rareseeds.com/cart/products/Mammoth_Red_Mangel_Beet-1307-130.html
> 
> You plant them as soon as the ground is warm enough to work. Harvest after the first frost. The frost sweetens them. In the old days ranchers would turn the cows in to eat the tops, then dig the beet for storage and turn hogs in to root out any that were left in the ground. They are a good overall stock feed from the old days.


Thanks spinner, couldn't find them under the old school spelling.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

We have 6/10s of an acre gardening area, utilize Companion Planting, Square Foot, French Intensive, and have a total of 24 raised beds (due to our cooler wetter climate). We have ZERO major issues with any bug, organically garden without any outside fertilizers or even organic pesticides, have chickens, rabbits, compost piles, etc... The worst issue I ever deal with are slugs and the weather. This year was great for cool weather crops, but nothing that is a heat lover. We have 18 fruit trees, dwarf/semi-dwarf, and few are bearing this year due to weather. We plant so much variety in the garden, that guards against failures. Our strawberries produced very little, but we will plenty of Marionberries, Thornless Blackberries, Grapes, and Blueberries. We grow a LOT of Comfrey, which has many uses!

I have a thread in the Gardening Forum with plenty of pictures.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

How do you use your Comfrey? I've got a couple of varieties and a fair amount that I could split up next spring, but haven't really figured out how to use it so that the ducks get plenty without a lot of cutting, etc. I'd really like to use it as a feed (they don't seem very interested in it dried, but will eat it fresh when they are hungry).


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

I use Comfrey for a compost igniter, to make "liquid fertilizer" in a tea form, to feed my critters, to put in between my veggies (Nitrogen boost), as an ingredient in my Comfrey Salve & Infused Oil, and after research about this specific variety have chosen to use it for tea and infusions I drink (FDA warns against internal use, but reports only 2 deaths). I do NOT recommend others drink the tea, but do their own research and make their own informed choice. My variety blooms purple, grows over 5 feet tall, and just about as wide. My chickens & rabbits eat it regularly. I have 36 plants. If you are drying Comfrey, you could always rehydrate and then use it as feed for your critters.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

On my acre, it would not be possible to raise enough grain for my falily of four and so I would not try. 

Still, my MIL had a large avacado tree, with cages of rabbits under it, and compost and fishing worms under the rabbit cages. The compost went out to the garden. You can raise a LOT if you plan like she did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

I hear a Dexter cow (about the size of a really big dog) can produce around 2 gallons of milk a day on half an acre of grass.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Under ideal conditions,.... excellent deep fertile soil, unlimited water, and lots of labor, you might be able to grow some grain, and have some livestock. Wish I could find these ideal conditions... here, it's either too wet or too dry, varmints get into the grain fields, or other such troubles occur.

I've never actually seen a Dexter cow... have heard of them. I can't imagine a cow surviving on a half acre of grass. Especially when there is no grass in the wintertime.

I've got a three acre enclosure for the buck goats. Currently four on it, three small and a large one. It's smooth as a golf course. Round bales of hay are put out year round. Surely a Dexter eats more than a couple of dwarf sized goats?

Have no doubt you could have a nice garden, an orchard, and maybe some nut trees on the north boundary line, and make enough to feed a small family well. Maybe a patch of grain (appropriate to your area... around here, it's corn) to get your grain supply in. I'd make sure I had very good fences, if anyone nearby has livestock... otherwise you could be wiped out overnight. BTDT.

From a survival point of view, one acre is very survivable (disasters, manmade and natural) if you have no neighbors nearby. If you do have neighbors, on adjoining lots, it's best if everyone practices the same lifestyle (homesteading) otherwise, three days after the shtf, they'll be wanting to come visit you and your 'grocery store'.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I'd think that goats would be more useful for milk than a Dexter cow? 

I'm thinking more of day to day living today than a SHTF scenario - how can I be prepared for the daily challenges of feeding our family well? What can I have in mind for extra-ordinary circumstances later. 

Here it is hot and dry in the summer, cold and dry in the winter. We are in a small town and have neighbors, if things got really bad we'd have to band up with certain people (we already have groundwork laid for that), but for now I want to eat more of our own food, pay less at the grocery store and be more self sufficient. Not every idea will work for us, but they do get me thinking. 

For instance, a couple of trees died last winter - a birch and a maple. They were not large trees and I'm going to replace them. I've realized that the three apple trees I have now don't produce very often due to late frosts, so I am going to get two semi-dwarf apples specifically chosen for late bloom and see if they do better. I'm going to add fruiting elderberries as part of my landscape - some of them are very pretty and they are good for you. 

I've got more lawn than I need, I'm mulling over ideas for what to replace it with and how to care for that when we already don't get all of our landscaping weeded out each year. What can I plant in dry shade that will choke out weeds and have food value for us or our ducks? I'm going to spread out my Comfrey under my apple trees and partially protect it from the foraging ducks, so they can graze, it chokes out grass and weeds and nourishes the apple trees. 

I'll probably remove two of the non productive apples, but need to decide what to put there. I had bush cherries and a peach tree - got some sort of nasty disease and don't think I can do stone fruits. I lost all of my cherry related trees. I'm thinking of at least one crab apple tree, I remember the sweet pickled crab apples my mother used to put up - yum! Any one have any ideas for zone 4 fruit trees? I could look into nuts too, come to think of it... I want smaller trees, I like the semi-dwarf apples. 

Thanks for the ideas.


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## coehorn (Jul 29, 2009)

pancho said:


> Aquaponics. You can raise more in a smaller area.




This might be the key to sustainable, healthy food because you can control the water input. 

More than a few people are reporting problems with "oil rain", "burning rain" and becoming sick after exposure to rain. If you are in the south or receiving rain that originated in the gulf, this may be an issue for you.

Here's a video that is eye opening. It may take a while to que up on your machine:

http://tinyurl.com/2eywjvf


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## insocal (May 15, 2005)

CrashTestRanch said:


> Hello spinner,
> 
> What is "*mangles*"?


mangel beets = stock beets

A large variety used for livestokk fodder


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

I just was looking at one of Seymour's books, and he said that mangels are not for humans.
Anyone ever eaten any?


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Shumways carries the mangel/sugar beet etc...and yes you can eat them though you may prefer the regular beet

Our rabbits love comfrey fresh, I also dry it and add to goat food...the goats wont eat it "fresh" but dried and ground its a great calcium source for milkers


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

anniew said:


> I just was looking at one of Seymour's books, and he said that mangels are not for humans.
> Anyone ever eaten any?


Yup. Just ate a young one. It was 5" long, 2" around. Not sweet, but VERY dense, tender enough but not like a regular eating beet. Would probably be a great pickling beet. I may try that this year. If the rabbits leave any for me  

Pigs love them, btw. So do the chickens after they figure out they're food 

Interesting thread. There is a book "living on one acre of land" that's pretty humorous along with being incredibly informative. 

Raised beds are a must as you get older. And I think container gardening would be great for you. Saw a thread awhile back about using kiddie pools as beds/containers. They work well. (and are sort of portable)

As to the lawn...WEEDS! my goodness. Dandelions and plantain and all kinds of things that are 'weeds' are nutrious..and if YOU don't eat them, feed to the rabbits. Rabbits are great source of lean protein and fur (or wool from angoras). AND the manure can go right onto your garden since it won't burn the plants. Chickens under or in with the rabbits, (altho space wise rabbits on one level, with chickens on the bottom makes more sense) Rabbits LOVE raspberry brambles, btw. And Mulberry. And apple leaves/branches. 

I'd probably do goats before a cow, even tho I don't care for goat's milk. Size, feeding, and could always trade the milk for other things. Goat cheese is to DIE FOR tho


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## goatlady (May 31, 2002)

See if your library can get you a copy of John Seymour's book Self-Sufficiency. He has a marvelous plan and layout for almost total self-sufficiency using 1 acre, which includes a cow, pids, chickens, and ducks. LOTS of great do-able ideas in that book and he actually did it first then wrote the book about it.


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## Beaners (Feb 23, 2005)

GrannyCarol said:


> Mangles are a beet raised for livestock, I guess they get huge. I wonder if ducks like them?


I think it'd be an awful lot of work to get them into a form the ducks can eat. You'd be chopping or grinding them. Our ducks are at a serious disadvantage to our turkeys when it comes to certain foods. The ducks try hard and then look on longingly while the turkeys tear things up and eat them. The turkeys aren't nearly as good at finding worms in the freshly tilled garden as the ducks are though.

I think the real limiting factor for any smaller property is winter feed for animals and people. It is for us, and I think that we have a fairly generous growing season. There are some things we have tried for the animals, like cutting oat hay and corn stalks, but we can't maintain production from all our rabbits over the winter on that. Having the ability to bring in hay from an outside source can expand your potential for animal protein enormously. Having the ability to buy in grain does the same for providing for the human residents.

We have half an acre. We have ducks, turkeys, rabbits, and quail. We plan on adding goats but have no expectation of providing more than a pittance of their food here. Once the grass comes in well the ducks and turkeys get just enough grain to keep laying and graze the lawn for the rest of their food. Once spring and summer harvest season starts the rabbits eat mostly garden waste or garden crops grown for them. We planned to feed the quail through the winter on home-grown seed but I need to cover the flower heads on time for that! If we stopped buying feed I would need to cut down the number of rabbits we raise. They buy almost all of their own feed right now, but they go through quite a bit during the winter and early spring.

For animals on a small piece of property, I think that diversity and strictly limiting the population is key. I can feed a few rabbits through the winter more easily than a dozen. A handful of ducks and turkeys can graze the lawn or mini-orchard. We couldn't support more than that. Since the animals don't require exactly the same diet (ie, lots and lots of hay for a herd of cattle) it's easier to provide from a small space. Even with smaller animals like ducks and turkeys, you get a lot more from your acreage if you move them frequently. We rotate the poultry through a couple connected pens and it provides them with more grass than if they were able to roam the entire space at will. They stay in the garden during the winter, rather than sacrifice the grass roots and soil structure in one of the pens.

Of course, this focuses mostly on the animal protein angle and not at all on the human food angle. An occasional rabbit casserole and a couple eggs a day won't do much good if you only have enough food to last a month after the first hard frost. Animal protein and the space needed to grow feed for the animals would probably be a luxury for those with more space. We do quite a bit in a small-ish space that includes a lot of room for our children to run around play. We could expand our production into that area and some other space. It would bring us closer but I don't know if we would meet the necessary goals.

Kayleigh


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I buy a lot of feed for my ducks, at this time its not a problem for us. However, I am keeping my eye open for ways to cut that down and would certainly have to if things changed here. I couldn't feed them on what we grow, like you I have too many for that. We do live in wheat country and can get wheat for them easily. I discovered they love winter squash that sits out and freezes and gets soft, so plan to grow more of that - though I need a root cellar storage (have an idea there too). My neighbor is willing that I run them on his land, he's got most of an acre he put in mostly trees, grasses and weeds. I guess I need fencing and winter storage.


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## machinist (Aug 3, 2010)

Our one acre is getting filled, but there is still some room. The lot is steeply sloped to the side, so we terraced 3 garden areas about 30' X 80' into the hillside, using stacked RR ties for the retaining walls. The top garden is fenced for our 5 chickens to roam most of the year, except when tomatoes and cukes are growing. (Otherwise, they'd get eaten.) At the top of the hill out back, is the orchard: 4 semi-dwark apple trees, 2 pear trees, 6 bush type red cherries, 5 bush black cherries and one gooseberry bush (not fit to eat, IMHO). Herbs are scattered about in beds along the fences and in a patch between the sidewalk and the house. A fourth garden patch by the back porch is used for fresh eating stuff.

The gardens are getting improved a lot by annual additions of horse manure from a friend's barn and cover crop of winter wheat each year, plowed down in the spring. We mulch heavily with straw to control weeds and improve the red clay. Wherever the corn patch is for the year, is where we put the chicken manure. This year we have one garden in open pollinated white field corn for cornmeal and chicken feed, and seedstock, of course. At this time it averages about 12 feet tall (characteristic of OP) and has at least one ear, often 2 per stalk. 

If all goes well, that should eliminate buying corn for the chickens next year. We still buy pork meat scrap for protein supplement, some mineralized salt, granite grit, and oyster shell for calcium. We are recycling the egg shells, though, to eliminate buying oyster shells. They get oven dried to kill any germs, then ground in the burr mill and added to the feed. The hens provide eggs only at this time, but I could expand that to raise 2 dozen fryers next batch. The henhouse is small, 6' x 12', added at the end of the yard barn. That barn now has one area 12' x 16', another 12'x 12' added later, all of it gambrel roofed with a loft 4 ft. high for storage of odds and ends. The larger area stores equipment and the 12 x 12 stores feed and one a garden tractor. 

We trade for firewood, and have about 4 cords stacked in the yard covered with metal roofing, awaiting the installation of the wood stove this Fall. I have materials for a woodshed, but not done yet. Wood is stacked near an added summer kitchen/sunroom on the south end of the house where the stove will go. That room does many things. Now, it is filled with the canning operation and has an LP stove for the purpose, but in winter, it helps warm the house and is used to dry laundry. Late winter we start plants there. 

The house has a walk-in basement where we store canned food and potatoes. Would love to have a root cellar, but don't have a spot for it! I hope to wall off a corner of the basement with an outside window for that, allowing cooler temps in winter. 

We are working on restoring the cistern, and 50% through that project. We had the roof replaced with metal for water collection, and cut a huge tree that had made a mess in the gutters, so the filtering should be easier. We will coat the inside of the cistern with Quikwall, a fiberglass reinforced cement, having already patched cracks with hydraulic cement. I'm replacing the rusted plumbing to a pump in the adjacent basement. Also have a simple gravity flow drain line in it to a faucet in the basement. The output will go through a filter and be pumped to the kitchen for drinking and cooking, separate from the city water supply for general use. (It is nasty.)

I'm mostly finished with a 3,000 gallon water tank for garden irrigation. This is 8 ft. diameter x 8 ft. tall, with 2 ft. sunk in the ground, sitting on a bed of sand. Since UV will degrade the plastic tank, I built a shed over it, 10' x 10', and have a gravity flow output line near the gardens. I still have to install the downspouts and wyes to hook up the supply to it from the shop roof.

We have run a farm repair shop here for several years, doing machining, welding, and sheet metal work. The building for that is 24' x 28', and is full to the brim with equipment and steel stock. There is a small roofed porch on that for small outside work. We are closing that business the end of September this year and retiring. If Social Security goes bust, we may have to open it again, but I hope not. 

We don't plan to add any larger livestock. This is farm country, so there is a lot of it around and we are better off to trade for what we need. I buy wheat and some corn as needed from locals straight from the combine at market prices. The burr mill makes our whole wheat flour for bread and cornmeal. 

We hope to add solar PV this year, if time allows. Have the equipment on hand and the battery shed built and wired. I plan to run 12 volt lights (CFL's) and use 12 V direct for computers, phone system, and a few other things to avoid the inverter losses. The fridge and freezer will run on inverted AC from that. Our daughtr and SIL are building solar box heaters, so e will probably install some for home heating.

A lot can be done on one acre. We aren't near finished yet!


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

I have done broilers right along with laying hens in my 8*8 coup...the broilers are 6-8 weeks start to finish and as long as you feed gamebird or unmedicated turkey starter your hens will still lay suitable eggs....as for shells...I feed excess eggs/shells raw back to my birds...they are free range so gravel is available...they crack the shells on their own....a few bantam hens make it so I rarely have to purchase any replacements and have plenty of excess roos for the table...

If you have access to local grains I'd seriously consider growing buff orpington cocks for the table instead of the broilers...premium at 7 months old...pekin ducks will also do well on a grain diet about the same as layers (16% protein) and BIG by 12 weeks old.


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## beaglebiz (Aug 5, 2008)

machinist said:


> Our one acre is getting filled, but there is still some room. The lot is steeply sloped to the side, so we terraced 3 garden areas about 30' X 80' into the hillside, using stacked RR ties for the retaining walls.


Are's rr ties coated in some kind of cancer causing agent that will leach into the soil? I know lots of folks used them round here at one time for retaining walls, but no more.


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## machinist (Aug 3, 2010)

beaglebiz said:
"Are's rr ties coated in some kind of cancer causing agent that will leach into the soil?"

That's right.  The MSDS sheet says "probable carcinogen". What we have are used ties, removed by the RR and replaced after 15 to 30 years of service. Most of the creosote volatiles are gone. I wouldn't reccomend that anyone else use them, in this day of rampant lawyers. For MYSELF, however, I feel safer with them than with new "landscape timbers" treated with other chemicals. Some of those used to be sold containing arsenic, and others with salt, or a copper compound. Personally, I prefer to take my chances with the creosote, which was once a natural extract of creosote bush, but now synthesized from coal tar, IIRC. 

DISCLAIMER (for any lawyers reading this): My posts are my opinions, and are not to be construed as anything but for entertainment value only. :run:


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## machinist (Aug 3, 2010)

I DID read the lawyer rap in the code of conduct. I guess I'm just not cut out to be on this forum. I do have a tendency to just tell things as I see them, and political correctness is not my strong suit. 

My apologies to any and all I may have offended in any way. I don't want any problems of any sort, so I think it best if I just drop it right here. 

I had no idea. This is the shortest time I have ever been on a forum in my life. I obviously don't fit here, so how does one go about getting un-registered?

Moderators, please?


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## beaglebiz (Aug 5, 2008)

machinist said:


> I DID read the lawyer rap in the code of conduct. I guess I'm just not cut out to be on this forum. I do have a tendency to just tell things as I see them, and political correctness is not my strong suit.
> 
> My apologies to any and all I may have offended in any way. I don't want any problems of any sort, so I think it best if I just drop it right here.
> 
> ...


Im not understanding whats going on, I asked you a question, and you answered it.:shrug:
Did you offend someone here?


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Actually Machinist, I don't know if you've some private communication, but so far I don't have a problem with your answers. I thought there was a lot of information on how you are using your acre. Personally, living on flat land, I'm building my raised beds with concrete blocks... I think they are safe and durable and easily moved if I reconfigure. 

I've used old RR ties for landscaping, but not near my veggies - I'm pretty cautious about things that might leach out of any treated lumber.


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## machinist (Aug 3, 2010)

No. No private communication at all here, and I wouldn't consider it. I read something in the registration procedure and/or code of conduct to the effect that anything I say here I can be sued for. Then, immediately I get pointed out that creosote is dangerous stuff. Let's just say that this is a big forum with a large participation, and I am absolutely terrified of lawyers. No thanks. I'll go now, as soon as I can figure out how to do it. I am afraid to say anything now.


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## beaglebiz (Aug 5, 2008)

Well, call me offended, and kinda weirded out.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Anything you say anywhere could get you sued, I don't think the risk is high here. That statement is put there to protect the forum, of course, in case someone gets whacko. If that frightens you, try pm'ing the forum admin (found on the title page to this forum - AngieM2 was the name I saw). If you click the underlined name, you ought to be able to send a private message to get her attention and help. 

Thanks for your ideas however and good luck.


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## cnichols (Jan 5, 2010)

Wow Machinist. LOL 

I was actually very impressed by your original post on this thread. I don't think you need to worry about getting sued. 

IMHO you should hang and chill. I think you may have alot to contribute to these forums!!  

My question, with regards to your original post here, what breed chickens do you raise? I was thinking, for our use, to raise Buff Orpingtons. They seem to be a good "dual purpose" breed and pretty easy to obtain and care for.


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