# Newbie Sheep Guy - Fencing Questions



## sheepflocker (Jun 1, 2015)

I need to put up about 3000' of perimeter fencing for sheep. 

This fence will also hold a Jersey cow or two and probably several miniature donkey because I think they're cool. I figure that if the fence will hold sheep it will hold these other animals as well.

I will be getting Katahdin sheep because I don't feel like shearing them and I hear that they are good with parasite resistance. Plus, they are available locally. 

I am torn between whether or not I should use field fence or high tensile electric fence?

The land is flat and clear. I don't own any equipment, but if I have to rent equipment or hire someone I can do that. There is no issue with being able to get a tractor anywhere to work on anything. 

I hear that sheep can jump over a 48" field fence. I don't understand why companies would sell specific sheep field fence and it would be 48" high if a sheep could jump over it, but like I said...I am new. 

I also hear that electric fence is not good for sheep. 

So here is my question for all of the sheep experts. 

What do I do?

Do I go with the 48" sheep field fence?

Do I go with a 7 or 8 strand high tensile electric fence?

In my area we have coyotes and dogs do occasionally roam through. I am planning on getting a few dogs to guard the property in general, so I am not anticipating having problems with coyotes if I have two or three decent sized dogs of my own to deal with that kind of stuff. 

I also have questions on how to set up the fence that you recommend. 

1. What kind of posts?
2. What about post spacing?
3. How far do you want to set posts?
4. What is the best way to set up corner posts?

If anyone could link me to websites or posts here that have that information that would be great. 

Thank you. 

Sheepflocker


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Maybe some breeds of sheep will jump fences like that...I only have experience with small sheep, but mine have never offered to jump anything, and certainly not something 48 inches. Sheep are generally less apt to climb and jump than goats. 

I, personally prefer field fencing with good sturdy wood posts. Electric fencing requires the animals be trained to it, and there's always that one critter who can figure out how to defeat it.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

We use 54 inch page wire, with a single barb six inches above that, on posts set 14 feet apart. I too can not imagine a sheep jumping 48 inch wire. I know for a fact that coyotes so far CAN NOT get through this fence, because one was inside the fence, got in where it crawled through a board section of the fence. I chased it while my daughter ran for the gun. It could not get out.

If you "hear" things like sheep clear 48 inch fence, or that multi strand electric is no good for sheep, I would beware the "sheep people" where you are getting this information from. Those are not typical lines of thought.

Great idea on the guard dog as a line of defense.

Multi strand electric is going to be cheaper than page.


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## sheepflocker (Jun 1, 2015)

FarmerDale, 

I get information where everyone gets information LOL, the internet. I had never personally heard of sheep jumping over anything besides my pillow when I have trouble sleeping until I came on the internet looking for information. 

For cost sake I have been considering going with the high tensile electric. I could go 8 strands, start the first one six inches from the ground, and have them every six inches all the way up to 48" high. I would think that a hot wire every six inches should keep almost any kind of critter in. 

I went to go look at a litter of German Shepherd x American bulldog pups last week and had planned on getting a pair, but I apparently got stood up. The magic of Craigslist. *sigh*

I have seen all kind of stuff about the types of posts to use and that kind of thing. I would like to go with as many steel T-posts as possible. I can get the good heavy duty 10' posts and put them 5' into the ground. 

My main concern is that I don't have a driver that will drive wooden posts and I don't have a tractor. So I would like to use as many posts as I can that I can drive myself. I saw a handy air powered, hand held, steel post driver online that I would probably invest in if I was about to use steel posts. 

What do you guys think about using heavy wooden posts on just the corners and using these Godzilla T-posts for the rest of it?

As you can see, I'm not a fence designing expert.


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## RovingAcres (Mar 3, 2013)

For guard dogs you're going to want a LGD not a property guardian like a GSD or bulldog. Too much risk of them getting bored and chasing/playing with your sheep to death.

Personally I would only use woven wire with sheep, to keep them in and tricky predators out. I've heard too many stories of sheep getting out and predators getting in. My sheep have wool and horns though and quickly figured out how to use them to get through hot wire without getting zapped. Big hair sheep might be more respectful of it.


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## sheepflocker (Jun 1, 2015)

RovingAcres, have you ever had a dog get bored and chase sheep to death?


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## Bytheyard (Mar 6, 2015)

We use three strand high tensile electric fence. We put wood fence on the corners and use the rebar step in post for the rest. We have so much rock that any other post was just about impossible. We keep our fence HOT to deter them getting out and to deter predators from getting in. We had a couple neighbor dogs coming around and would come in when we had the fence off for working on it. They tried when the fence was on and we haven't seen them since. I think also making sure the fenced in area is plenty big enough helps to keep them in.


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## RovingAcres (Mar 3, 2013)

My dog isn't around my sheep unsupervised because he's not a LGD. I know several people who have lost sheep or come out to severely injured sheep from their pet dogs though.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

An LGD is ideally raised is close proximity with their livestock from an early age, not with the human family. They should bond with the animals and see them as their family, rather than the human caretakers. Some breeds have better genetics for this which lends to personalities which automatically have an instinct to guard stock. With that in mind...you still have to train the pup through his youngster days to curb his youthful excitement around the animals and discourage any form of "playing" with them. Only a mature LGD should be loose and unsupervised with sheep.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

sheepflocker said:


> FarmerDale,
> 
> I get information where everyone gets information LOL, the internet. I had never personally heard of sheep jumping over anything besides my pillow when I have trouble sleeping until I came on the internet looking for information.
> 
> ...


Which post driver are you looking at? There are some out there that aren't great. This is the one I bought. 
http://www.rohrermfg.com/post-drivers/99e-m-post-driver/?page_context=category&faceted_search=0
Works for t-posts and steel pipe up to 2 7/8 both. I read on one forum that a fellow had made an adapter for it and was able to drive 4inch wood posts with sharpened tips. Haven't tried that, but I plan too.

I'm going to use HT electric. But for the bottom wire, I'm using barb 3inches off the ground - it will double as my line for lining up the posts, then I'll just mount it 3 inches off the ground. Plan to ground this line. Next will be hot 5 inches above it. Anything going under it will get the barbs, anything above it will get zapped by the electric. From there up will alternate hot and grounded. Can't tell how it works on sheep yet, but the fellow I spoke to said it worked for him. I know it will be tight enough for cattle.

Best of luck to you.


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## Farmer2B (Oct 20, 2011)

High tensile won't keep lambs in, or in some cases sheep. What's worked well is ''48 woven wire with a strand of high tensile above it, which is useful also for jumping dividers.
It seems like high tensile would work, but they just run right through it, and once they're on the other side, no dice. If they'll always have choice feed, they're fine, but if you're trying to get them to eat the pasture down a little more than they'd like, good luck.

You can do wooden posts (locust if you want it to be there for your great great grandkids) with a T post or two in between, and it'll work fine and save some work (digging post holes suck, even if you have a 3-point attachment for a tractor. You can only put insulators on the wood, or on the T posts as well. The latter works better if you're not tightening the line like a guitar string.
That way you don't need braces (or we haven't yet... switched from high tensile slowly to woven wire combo, and it's still looking fine after 8 years).

I can't remember the spacing, and I'm not sure we've got it the best it can be.

As far as equipment, you're either looking at one long summer of digging post holes, or hiring out a tractor for probably $50 max. I don't know how many highschool kids are running around where you are, but they're usually happy with a little spending money. 

We have tons of dogs walk past our sheep, cows, goats. So far none have been able to get into any of the pastures, or been close. Woven wire holds chickens too, if you keep them, which makes your life a lot easier cleaning a hen house four times a year rather than eight or twelve.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Lots of places rent post pounders out, or even let you use them free of charge if you buy enough posts, at least up here. Maybe check on that too? 50 or 100 bucks a day ish.


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## sheepflocker (Jun 1, 2015)

ArmyDoc said:


> Which post driver are you looking at? There are some out there that aren't great. This is the one I bought.
> http://www.rohrermfg.com/post-drivers/99e-m-post-driver/?page_context=category&faceted_search=0
> Works for t-posts and steel pipe up to 2 7/8 both. I read on one forum that a fellow had made an adapter for it and was able to drive 4inch wood posts with sharpened tips. Haven't tried that, but I plan too.
> 
> ...


I was looking at that brand of T-Post driver. It looks like it might be the ticket. 

I will probably end up going with the stupidly expensive sheep field fence. I put yardage markers up today with little flags on them for windage adjustments just in case the fence doesn't work out. Haha. 

On a bright note I went Crappie fishing tonight and got into a mess of stripers. Its a good thing that I live alone, cleaning fish in my kitchen at midnight is probably frowned upon in most establishments. LOL


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## sheepflocker (Jun 1, 2015)

Farmer2B said:


> High tensile won't keep lambs in, or in some cases sheep. What's worked well is ''48 woven wire with a strand of high tensile above it, which is useful also for jumping dividers.
> It seems like high tensile would work, but they just run right through it, and once they're on the other side, no dice. If they'll always have choice feed, they're fine, but if you're trying to get them to eat the pasture down a little more than they'd like, good luck.
> 
> You can do wooden posts (locust if you want it to be there for your great great grandkids) with a T post or two in between, and it'll work fine and save some work (digging post holes suck, even if you have a 3-point attachment for a tractor. You can only put insulators on the wood, or on the T posts as well. The latter works better if you're not tightening the line like a guitar string.
> ...


How would a sheep run right through hot high tensile wire spaced 6" apart, starting 6" off the ground and going up to 48" for the top wire?

Do they come out the other side as lamb chops? lol


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## sheepflocker (Jun 1, 2015)

RovingAcres said:


> My dog isn't around my sheep unsupervised because he's not a LGD. I know several people who have lost sheep or come out to severely injured sheep from their pet dogs though.





Woolieface said:


> An LGD is ideally raised is close proximity with their livestock from an early age, not with the human family. They should bond with the animals and see them as their family, rather than the human caretakers. Some breeds have better genetics for this which lends to personalities which automatically have an instinct to guard stock. With that in mind...you still have to train the pup through his youngster days to curb his youthful excitement around the animals and discourage any form of "playing" with them. Only a mature LGD should be loose and unsupervised with sheep.


You guys don't have to worry about the Livestock Guardian Dog issue. I don't have enough land to warrant getting one, or have predators large enough to warrant getting one, and I want a dog or two that lives in the house most of the time. 

I want dogs that can be part of the family as well as eat coyotes as well as keep two leggers off the property. 

So, the LGD issue is a dead horse.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

I've had the best luck with 47inch woven wire(red brand). I also have a strand of hot wire on top. I use T and wood posts. I've tried just hot fence, but seems like there are always a few sheep that get through it. 
I notice you also said you have coyotes, and the occasional dogs going through. For coyotes, a lgd dog from working lgd parents, started off with livestock is the best bet
. They are bred for the job, and will bond with your sheep. This is so important. In a coyote attack seconds count. If the dog is sleeping on the porch or in the house he won't get to the sheep in time to prevent a lamb from being carried off, or a life threatening throat wound from happening. If you don't have a dog you can always put up the sheep in a coyote proof barn or tight pen near the house at night.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

You might even try starting off with a smaller pasture instead of tackling the entire perimeter fence at first. At some point you will want to rotate the sheep to different pastures anyway.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

We use field fence with no problems of escape, even though I know for a fact Barbados Blackbelly sheep can clear 5' with no problem. As long as they've got plenty of food inside, they're too lazy to start jumping. If something got inside the fence and spooked them it would be a different story. Our Great Pyr was raised with alpacas, so he's never "bonded" to the sheep. He does a great job though patrolling the fence line and protecting everything inside it. Our other dog is a mutt, walk-up stray who we broke of wanting to chase sheep with a shock collar. It only took two zaps to convince her sheep are electric. Two years so far and no losses.


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## creeksidelc (Aug 4, 2014)

I personally have both woven wire and ht electric on my place. If I could do it over again and money wasn't an object then it would be all field fenced. We have one hot wire along the top of all of our field fencing that will deter any predators from climbing in and our lgd's from climbing out. The main problem with electric is that you must constantly check it and keep it clear from all obstructions. That means either spraying fence lines with weed and grass killer or a lot of weed eating with a string trimmer. It's amazing how fast the grass can grow to that 6 in wire. As far as post goes an easier but effective and also cheaper way than all wood post is to build your corners and h braces of wood then do a wooden line post every 5-10 t post. It depends on how your soil is as to how often you need them. Also if you have a sheep that jumps a 48 if fence it just needs to take a truck ride cause that's not a sheep to keep around. You should be fine either way you go and good luck!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

sheepflocker said:


> How would a sheep run right through hot high tensile wire spaced 6" apart, starting 6" off the ground and going up to 48" for the top wire?
> 
> Do they come out the other side as lamb chops? lol


They would go between the wires, since you can't get it tight enough to stop them

Hi Tensile is meant for large animals

That said, I had good luck with 4 ft tall, 7 strands of 12.5 GA aluminum, with 4000-6000 volts and as many Joules as you can get

They soon learn to respect the fence, and any that don't are soon sold or eaten

It doesn't have to be "Hi Tensile" steel since that requires special tools and up to 250 lbs of pressure per wire, meaning you would need large, well braced corners.

I used 8 ft telephone poles with 4 ft in the ground at all the corners and gates, and 2-3" treated line posts 50 ft apart.

I used no extra bracing, and have had no movement of the posts

If you're going to have cows and donkeys in the same pasture, forget about dogs since they won't all get along.


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## sheepflocker (Jun 1, 2015)

wendle said:


> You might even try starting off with a smaller pasture instead of tackling the entire perimeter fence at first. At some point you will want to rotate the sheep to different pastures anyway.


The entire area to be fence in is less than 8 acres, so the whole thing is a smaller pasture. 

I will be using temporary electric fence to mob graze them through the pasture, so the perimeter fence must all be done at once.


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## Maxpowers (Apr 4, 2012)

I'm not suggesting field fence over the high tensile but I'm only going to talk about the field fence because that's what I have experience with.

It takes little to nothing to contain my katahdins. I could probably contain then with rope on a stick. Essentially they see a barrier of some form, recognize it as a barrier and don't bother trying to escape through it. 

I don't use sheep field fence, I use the cheapest field fence I can find. The Red Brand stuff at tractor supply, $130-150 for 330'. I've had no problems with it. Occasionally a lamb will stick its head through to graze but they can always get themselves out. 

I generally use wooden posts for my corners but I've also had good luck with the wedge loc system. When done right the wedge loc can be really strong. http://www.wedgeloc.com/ You can get these at tractor supply in the fencing section. I tend to still run wood posts for my corners with nothing but t posts in between. So lets say I have a 600' section. Fence comes in 330' rolls. I'll do wood at each end of the 600' and in the middle I'll use the wedge loc. I also tend to use wedge loc more if it's just a short section of fence I need to do. 

With the wedge loc I've found that if you don't have one of the tposts perfectly straight it can twist on you over time on a one way brace like this 










But if you have a two way setup like this it makes a very strong corner. I also have one 3 way wedge loc corner setup and it's pretty ---- strong.










Spacing- I ran about 1000' one year with 20' spacing between t posts. 20' spacing works but you have to get it pretty tight. I also had to go back over a lot of it using this fence tool http://www.kencove.com/fence/Woven+Wire+Accessories_detail_TBT.php to tighten it up in spots. So while 20' spacing works I've now decided to go with 15' spacing.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

sheepflocker said:


> The entire area to be fence in is less than 8 acres, so the whole thing is a smaller pasture.
> 
> I will be using temporary electric fence to mob graze them through the pasture, so the perimeter fence must all be done at once.


Oh, nevermind then. I was thinking you were working with a larger acreage.


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## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

Perimeter fence should always be 4ft field fencing with a top wire of barb or electric, especially if you're new to this stuff.
Sheep, hair or wool, are like goats and will/can ignore hot wire.
Cattle could bust through the hot wire as well. 
Hot wire and being high tensile does not mix.


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