# Reloading Issue



## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

I think I know the answer here, but would like to hear some opinions.

I've not reloaded anything for several years, and recently ran out of .223 varmint rounds, so decided to get the equipment back out and cook up a load.

Created (3) different loads, then went to the range to try them out. Several of the reloads would not allow my bolt to close. The brass was once fired salvaged stuff I had a bucket full of. Could have been fired out of an AR or bolt gun?

Followed the complete routine; sized and knocked primers out, cleaned, trimmed, primed, charged and loaded measuring everything carefully.

Guessing the brass fired in a different gun was fire formed to it and chamber dimension was just slightly different? When I re-sized, probably didn't crank die down quite enough so the "shoulder" is just a bit further forward than it needs to be.

Would like to hear from some of you more skilled reloaders?
Thanks


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## Silvercreek Farmer (Oct 13, 2005)

Full length resizing or only neck sizing?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

do you trim before or after you full length size ?


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Trimmed after, to assure proper case case length just before loading.

The manual says to crank die down till it touches the raised ram, them lower ram and crank die down another 1/4 to 1/2 turn. Read this after encountering the problem.
Thinking maybe I didn't crank it down far enough first go round, so didn't set the shoulder on the brass just right?

Question - Can I check to see if I have it right by trial chambering the newly sized and trimmed brass, prior to prime, charge, bullet?


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Like the others I'd look at your FL sizing, then brass length, then you're OAL cartridge length with bullet seated.

When FL sizing I do the standard; screw down the die onto the shellholder, then lower the ram, then screw down 1/4 turn more to take up for your press flexing.

Chuck


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Fishindude said:


> Trimmed after, to assure proper case case length just before loading.
> 
> The manual says to crank die down till it touches the raised ram, them lower ram and crank die down another 1/4 to 1/2 turn. Read this after encountering the problem.
> Thinking maybe I didn't crank it down far enough first go round, so didn't set the shoulder on the brass just right?
> ...


Yes, thats a decent technique.

As you've surmised, you probably didn't FL size enough for brass that wasn't fired in that chamber by missing the 1/4 or 1/2 turn more.

Chuck


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Will try again, soon as I get some time and will let you all know how it works out.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Fishindude said:


> Will try again, soon as I get some time and will let you all know how it works out.


Barring anything out of the ordinary, that should be it. The only other problems I've seen with chambering were due to:

Not enough FL sizing with brass not previously fired in that chamber. (think this is where you're at)

Not pushing the shoulder back enough on brass that has been fired in that chamber repeatedly. need to bump the shoulder back some. 

Brass too long.

Too much neck thickness on a tight chamber, not usually encountered unless you're working with a custom chamber or brass that's necked down from another cartridge. 

Cartridge OAL too long to the point you've got the ogive into the lands while trying to close the bolt. 

There's probably a few more reasons, but these are the ones I've encountered.

Chuck


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Fishindude said:


> Trimmed after, to assure proper case case length just before loading.
> 
> The manual says to crank die down till it touches the raised ram, them lower ram and crank die down another 1/4 to 1/2 turn.
> Read this after encountering the problem.
> ...


You are missing one critical component for *RE-LOADING*.

You are cooking with gas if you load with NEW, VIRGIN brass,

RE-LOADING fired brass you resize REQUIRES a case gauge!
The GENERAL instructions will get you close,
But you MUST have a case gauge to tell if the shoulder of the brass is pushed back into position,
To see if the case walls are pushed back into tolerance,
And to see if the neck has stretched during firing or resizing.

Cases don't have to be trimmed each and every time,
But the sides and shoulders MUST be pushed back into place so the case seats in the chamber and headspaces correctly...

------

A bullet seated too shallow, making the Cartridge Over All Length (COAL) too long, 
The bullet hits the rifling so the cartridge can't headspace properly.
This is a bullet seating issue, doesn't happen often, and is easy to check for with a caliper.

-----

With used brass, I'm betting you didn't use a case gauge and didnt get cases pushed back into place so they would headspace.

Once you get the die the correct distance from the ram, 
LOCK IT DOWN!
Once you get it cranking out cases that fit the case gauge, you check a case once in a while while resizing, further adjustment should only be needed if the die wears or if the die comes loose...

-----

The last thing to check for is flush primers.
A poorly seated primer will stick out, again preventing proper headspace.
This is REAL obvious! Hard to miss, but mentioned anyway.

------

Your final QC should be to drop the loaded rounds into the case gauge.
Each and every round, this is the 'Last Word' indicator.

Things can happen during loading/reloading,
You short stroke the ram, 
The die backs off,
The seated/crimper hangs on the case deforming it slightly,
The primer doesn't seat fully or has a shallow primer pocket (used brass isn't always consistent or the same brand/specifications)

The drop in case gauge will tell you quickly if there are any problems since you have tolerance limits ground into the case gauge, imperfections/defects show up immedately.

If it fits the case gauge, it will fit any normally functioning rifle,
So its the 'Last Word' indicator if the round will work or not.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> RE-LOADING fired brass you resize *REQUIRES a case gauge*!
> The GENERAL instructions will get you close,
> But you *MUST have a case gauge* to tell if the shoulder of the brass is pushed back into position,
> To see if the case walls are pushed back into tolerance,
> And to see if the neck has stretched during firing or resizing.


Gee, I've done it all wrong the last 40 years 

To the OP, set up your die so it's barely touching the shoulder, then give it 1/16th of a turn more. Next, try to chamber the brass. If it won't allow the bolt to close with very little resistance, turn it down another TINY amount, until it fits, then set, your lock nut

Ideally you should only move the shoulder about .002 smaller than your chamber

You have the perfect "case gauge".
It's called "your rifle"


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Bearfoot,
Yup, you have been doing it wrong all these years!
No question about it...

The entire point of reloading ammo is to return the SAAMI specifications.

With your way, you haven't the slightest idea of what the head space is.

You get to reload EVERYTHING if you change rifles, shoot in a second rifle of the same caliber, ect...

I know, you are going to whine and rant/rail,
But the facts don't change...
Just 'Chambering' and proper specifications are two entirely different things.
Without a case gauge you can't even tell if your rounds are out of specification or not...
And that's a fact...

SO,
$20 case gauge, or just 'Chambering' with no idea how close to specification you are,
And no idea about consistancy that leads to increased accuracy.

At the risk of being redundant, but to emphasize my point,
You recommend a 0.002" set back of the case shoulder,
How EXACTLY do you determine a 0.002" movement when the rifle chamber is the only 'Gauge' you have?

Since you don't have a case gauge, and there isn't any way to determine 0.002" movement in the ram/die or the chamber,
How do you propose to gauge when that set back is too shallow or too deep?


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Gee, I've done it all wrong the last 40 years
> 
> To the OP, set up your die so it's barely touching the shoulder, then give it 1/16th of a turn more. Next, try to chamber the brass. If it won't allow the bolt to close with very little resistance, turn it down another TINY amount, until it fits, then set, your lock nut
> 
> ...


Agreed, I go with .002 for a bolt gun, and .003 for a semi. 

I do use a set of shoulder gauges, just to get my measurement, and because I have multiple rifles in the same caliber. I use a set of die shims to get the proper spacing (bump) for that rifle. Saves me the hassle of resetting my dies based on the rifle. My dies are set at factory FL size, then I use the shim to back off the shell holder to get my .002 or .003. I simply record what shim used to get the right amount of sizing in the load data for that rifle. 

The benefit to the incremental sizing approach is better accuracy potential and it saves work hardening your brass by only sizing it the minimum required to chamber in your rifle. 

Chuck


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I don't know any accurate reloader that doesn't use a case gauge for a 'Standard'
Once you know EXACTLY where you are starting from,
And which way you go, and what those changes produce in accuracy.

Standard in the classic sense, a fixed point, a constant.
The machinest or scientific 'Standard',
In this case, its its SAMMI specifications since they set the standards for firearms.
Swollen, eroded or damaged chambers not withstanding,
Starting from SAMMI specifications its hard to go wrong...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> I don't know any accurate reloader that doesn't use a case gauge for a 'Standard'
> Once you know EXACTLY where you are starting from,
> And which way you go, and what those changes produce in accuracy.
> 
> ...


SAMMI dimensions are set to fit *all* chambers.

I only want my brass to fit MY chamber.

That's why case gauges aren't necessary, since I have the rifle to go by.

If I wanted "SAMMI specifications", I could buy factory ammo


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

*"The entire point of reloading ammo is to return the SAAMI specifications"*

NOT FOR ME, reloading is to have an enjoyable hobby and cheaper than factory and made to my order ammo to harvest game with.
I clean the used brass, resize it check to make sure it doesn't need trimming with this gauge,

and trial fit a few cases in* MY RIFLES CHAMBER* . I care less if it will fit in Doug's, Robs or Ricks chamber. It fits and works in mine and that is what I reloaded it for.

 Al


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

The biggest problem with not knowing what you don't know is that you often don't realize that you don't know it all.



JeepHammer said:


> I don't know any accurate reloader that doesn't use a case gauge for a 'Standard'


...which is proof that you don't know many "accurate reloaders". 



JeepHammer said:


> Once you know EXACTLY where you are starting from,
> And which way you go, and what those changes produce in accuracy.
> 
> Standard in the classic sense, a fixed point, a constant.
> ...


...and, there's proof that you don't understand mechanical design, headspace, or SAAMI's place in the industry. Of course, I don't expect that to stop you from pontificating on it, but a personality type less prone to self-aggrandizing would probably sit back and leave room in the conversation for others to inject their perspective, and LEARN from it. The approach that Bear described is perfectly valid, but more on that later.

Your case gauge doesn't tell you "EXACTLY where you are starting from". Where, "exactly" in the spec is your gauge? Is it at nominal? If so, nominal +/- 0.0?? ? The gauge manufacturer had to have tolerances. Do you have a gauge for your gauge? Got a gauge for _that_ gauge? No? So...


JeepHammer said:


> Bearfoot...
> ...With your way, you haven't the slightest idea of what the head space is.


...guess what, homes, neither do you.
How could that be, you ask? How is it possible that you, the great and venerable JeepHammer, DON'T know something?
Re: my first line.


My company is a voting member SAAMI, and I am issued an updated reference disk annually for work. SAAMI issues separate drawings for cartridges and chambers, with _offset_ tolerance stacks. To be safe (from a common-functionality standpoint, not the KABOOM-sense), cartridge manufacturers normally strive for tighter tolerances than suggested in the reference drawing, and center their nominal short of the reference nominal. Likewise, weapon manufacturers normally strive for tighter tolerances than suggested in their matching ref drawing, centering their nominal _long_ of the ref nominal. The net result is that a production rifle firing production / NIB brass / case-gauged loads generally end up in excess of 0.010" CHS. 

Now, granted, that is perfectly acceptable from a reliable-performance standpoint, but that is a lot more wiggle-room than the 0.003-6" that most laymen consider makes up the headspace window, having only their chamber gauges as a point of reference. 

Some shooters want to do better than that. So...


JeepHammer said:


> ..The entire point of reloading ammo is to return the SAAMI specifications...


...proves yet ANOTHER thing that you are wrong about.

The process that Bear described is actually a more accurate method to arrive at what his goal is, than the one-POR gauge you suggest.

With the industry-standard 14 pitch thread on common reloading dies, one full revolution of the die will make a change of 0.071" in shoulder position. A 12th of a turn, 0.005", and the 16th of a turn that he prescribes, a 0.004" difference.

With a 7/8" OD, there is plenty of circumference for resolution of 12th, 24th, and even 48th rev marks. I have marked plenty of dies on a dividing head, but a fine-point Sharpie will do, and has done, for generations of bench-loaders who bought a new die at the match commissary area.

If you die-set to your fired brass, whether from your rifle or an unknown source, bump 1/24th at a time between chamber checks, catch final sizing in your chamber on lock-cam, re-die set in the press, and then bump 1/12th, 1/24th, or 1/48th further, guess what? You have eliminated your chamber from the tolerance stack entirely. You know "EXACTLY where you are starting from". 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whether it was you intent or not, you came in here carrying yourself like you were going to give the lowly members of this forum the gift of enlightenment over their scary and confusing guns.

Not a good way to start.

First of all, the things that bring folks to homestead tends to at least bring them within tangent of firearms as well. The novice comes in here for advice on the first gun on their homestead, which they promptly get, but plenty of the rest of us actually- _you might want to sit down for this, I know it's going to be hard- _actually know what we're doing. If we were just dying for a hot gut-breeze from a gunshop-blowhard, we'd drive into town, visit out local gunshop and get our dose. _That guy_ works at almost every shop in the country, and he's not hard to find. In fact, I've run into him in gun shops all around the world.

I, personally, wrote you off when you made your "EDUCATION TIME, Pete..." post. I cant speak for everyone, but I doubt my reaction was unique. That post is there for posterity, but it's never too late to put the shovel down, bro. Pete may not (I don't know) have ever held a job in the industry (ie. "professional"), but he is one of the most well-rounded-knowledge shooters you are likely to run into anywhere. He never seems to be above learning something new from someone here who offers a new idea, but he does not need you to _educate_ him.

I learned a long time ago that, no matter how much I may think that I am the guy in the room that "know the most about guns", it never pays to carry myself that way. It's such a diversified topic that someone else is bound to know something I don't know, and there is no way to quantify it, anyway. 

You're creating your own image here, and, from what I've seen so far, it's not a favorable one.
Mark Twain is remembered for being a funny guy, but he was actually twice as smart as he was funny.


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## Veedog (May 4, 2015)

Gun monkey you called him homes. That's a classic. Thanks for the good laugh. I needed that about now.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

This thread turned south in a hurry ..... funny stuff, however :goodjob:

Got my issues resolved, brass is chambering, now fine tuning the powder charge.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

sometimes, when pushing the bullet into the case neck, the base of the shoulder will give and bulge out (increase diameter at the intersection of the shoulder base and case side. rounds will not chamber in a gas gun. (ar 15)

a wilson go no go gauge is easiest thing i know of for checking this and other problems.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

ace admirer said:


> sometimes, when pushing the bullet into the case neck, the base of the shoulder will give and bulge out (increase diameter at the intersection of the shoulder base and case side. rounds will not chamber in a gas gun. (ar 15)
> 
> a wilson go no go gauge is easiest thing i know of for checking this and other problems.


Shoulder bulge is usually the seating/crimping die set too deep.
The crimp taper is getting into the top of the case to hard.
The only way a seating/crimping die CAN work correctly is when the cases are all EXACTLY the same length and the case necks are all EXACTLY the same thickness.

Thicker brass will tend to crimp harder since you are forcing more material into the crimp taper,
And longer necks will crimp harder because they are hitting the crimp taper sooner.

One solution is to use a collet style 'Factory Crimp Die'.
Back the seater/crimper die off, adjust the seating rod to seat the bullet for your Cartridge Over All Length (COAL), seating but no crimp at all,

Then run them through the Factory Crimp Die which doesn't use a taper directing force DOWN on the top of the case neck,
Rather pushes the sides of the neck in against the bullet to get the crimp you want.

Some guys rant, rave & generally loose their minds when you suggest a factory crimp die, but I have a turret and auto indexing reloaders that make the extra step painless.

On the auto indexing press, you can crank out 300 to 500 an hour with not one failed crimp or one bulged shoulder in the run.
I can highly recommend the factory crimp die for anyone doing general reloading that wants to crank out 'Match' quality ammo without the hassle of trimming each brass every time they reload.
A real time saver, and saves you on 'Scrubs' that are too damaged to fire,
Sometimes too damaged to reuse the case.
Brass isn't cheap, I have no problem tossing out brass that didn't live up to specification,
But I hate destroying brass that was perfectly fine before I screwed the pooch!

-----------

Head Space is supposed to be checked with a head space gauge.
Checking to see if the chamber allows the round to properly fit without being too close or too far away from the closed bolt face.

Case stretching,(shoulder walking forward) with repeated expansion from firing, and the resizing die pushing the case walls back in where they belong will move the shoulder forward.

A case gauge will show you in an instant if you need to trim the neck length or push the shoulder back into place.

It also gives you a precice reading on your resizing, if he case walls were pushed back to acceptable dimentions or not.

With use, the chamber will deform,
Pressure will bloat it, erosion will move the forcing cone/rifling entry point forward.

That allows a standard round to rattle around in the chamber,
That's why some guys use 'Fire Formed' brass that's blowed out to fit their Non-Standard chambers.

The 'Correct' way to do things would be to pull the barrel,
Add a thread to the barrel moving the damaged chamber backwards,
And RE-Chamber the barrel with a chamber that fits SAMMI specification ammo,
Since all ammo you buy IS SAAMI specification,
And simply correct the head space for SAAMI ammo.

SAAMI chambers/ammo shoots just as accurately as doing it some funky way to compensate for an out of specification chamber...
And then you can use all that SAAMI reloading equipment correctly without truing to devise ways to get non-standard rounds produced.

Its also safer.
No worries about getting hold of ammo that is going to do ugly things.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

there are a lot of rifles and pistols that have over sized chambers and barrels , not everyone is going to spend more than the price of the gun to re-barrel and re-chamber to meet spec

there are brand new guns coming off the production line with barrels that just don't match SAAMI measurements 

it may not be the "Right way" but it is what is and has been working for a very long time 

if the bolt will close with light finger pressure on a case then bringing it back to exact SAAMI isn't necessary as long as your not selling or intending your ammo for anything but your gun that is the hole point of neck sizing , and fire forming brass.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Here here. 
If you can make quality ammo to shoot reliably and accurately in your rifle, who cares what the gauge says?

The barrel may be stamped ".308 Win", but I say call it a ".309 Pete", and load for it.

Then go forth, and poke stuff with it.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I don't care for a second how *YOU* reload for *YOUR* rifle.
You can wait until the brass, chamber or barrel splits for all I care.

*Just don't try to sell it to a novice as the 'Correct' way.*

If they stick with it, gain some experence, then THEY can make the decision to change from the SAAMI specifications.

---------

As for cost, I charge $50 for pulling the barrel, re-chamber on standard/common calibers,
And correcting headspace.
Its easier on an AR than a bolt rifle, but its not that much more difficult.

For another $20 I'll true the receiver, and strighten the threads so the barrel actually lines up true with the barrel & bolt face.

I will GUARINTEE the chamber is true with the bore/rifling,
The chamber EXACTLY fits SAAMI rounds,
The forcing cone between chamber and rifling is correct and concentric,
And the head spacing is will within tolerance.

Its just not that hard to do...

I cut my chambers aligned with the BORE, not the outside profile of the barrel,
And I cut chambers in three, or four steps to make sure the are absloutely correct to fit the ammo the customer wants to fire, no matter what stupid cartridge he walks in the door with.

Sloppy chambers, questionable ammo, out of tolerance...
Pretty much describes an AK 47, and they aren't really known for inherent accuracy...

Getting the brass to fit the chamber is doing it BACKWARDS in my opinion.
Notice the word OPINION at the end of that sentance, but I'm sure at least three of you are going to jump on me anyway...

You have ONE rifle, and yet you are going to run hundreds, maybe thousands of rounds through it...
Common sense would dictate you make the rifle fit the ammo ONCE,
Instead of making thousands of rounds fit the rifle.
Sounds exhausting to me...

I'd rather have a rifle that shot ANY SAAMI spec ammo accurately than have to fire form all new ammo, then delibrately load that ammo out of spec just so its accurate the NEXT time you fire it,
But its your ammo and your firearm, do what you want to.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

AHey, at least you're now admitting that some of what you say is actually opinion, so that's a step in the right direction.

I think that the chambers that Pete's alluding to are not actually unsafe in any way. He's just stating the truth that there are plenty of chambers out there that may be outside tolerance in one dimension or another. They'd never give their owner any problem with production ammo, and the owner would likely never even find out there was a dimensional issue until the owner started precision loading for it- at which point the dimensional "problem" was nullified by hand-loading. 

It reminds me of an argument that was avoided in the last shop I worked in, saved by ice fishing and peach brandy. Our book quote for an Ackley Improvement was $175, but a couple jobs showed up on the rack with $50 quotes on them. 

Because of days off, it took the better part of week to figure out where they came from. I was the youngest and newest in the shop, but the procedure I learned in my dad's shop was identical to SOP in this shop, so I quickly fell off the list of likely suspects. It turned out it was the second newest guy, and, when encountered about it, said that he offered the customer a "short cut" one of his instructors taught. 

Our SOP was, in order to provide a chamber to spec, remove the barrel, set back the shank, chamber to the custom short-GOs we ground, and true the receiver face, threads and lug abutments, since we had the barrel off anyway. 

The "short cut" this other gunsmith was offering was to put dykem on the reamer's shoulder, jam it in the barreled-receiver, cut till the dykem came off in a single turn, and fire-form a couple cases to give the customer something to set his dies off of. 

That didn't sit well with the rest of us. That weekend, in the ice shanty, we sorted it out. 

Only about a 1/10th of our quotes came out of the book, so that wasn't the issue. The problem was that there was only one guy in the shop willing to do the job in a way that the rest of us saw as wrong. 

But, what made it "wrong"? In a properly cut AI chamber, non-improved commercial loads should size a little at the neck-shoulder transition when they're chambered. When the chamber was cut without setting-back, a commercial load would chamber with long headspace, though not long enough to affect proper ignition. 

Sure, case life was shortened by a few cycles on that first fire-forming, but that may or may not weigh heavily to the client. Of course, being a custom shop, we took great pains to keep headspace on guns leaving our bench to tighter tolerance than the manufacturer, when the job it came in for gave us a chance to affect that- which not all jobs did. And, while safety was paramount to any other held-view, we all accepted that long headspace faulted ignition, in almost every case, before it faulted safety- so we couldn't argue from that front. 

The customers weren't going to be buying commercially loaded AI ammo, anyway, and fire-forming the cases they would eventually reload didn't present a safety issue, so, in the end, the argument never happened. 

Most of us still preferred to do the job according to SOP, and when a "short-cut" AI job showed up, it got passed to the other guy's rack.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Stuff like Ackley chambers cost extra!
Getting that shoulder cut EXACTLY correct is a pain, and getting no chatter, thick shanked cutters costs me extra, I have to pass that cost on...

I got rid of the typical chamber reamers,
Went to a no chatter cutter, got rid of that spinning bushing that deflects,
Went to a thick shank so I could use a full length pilot in the barrel that fits into the cutter bore.

They aren't cheap! But I don't get chatter or deflected/angled/off set/galled chambers anymore.
The chambers come out nearly a mirror finish also, which I like.

I use a 4 jaw chuck, line up DIRECTLY on the bore, not the outside profile of the barrel,
(I have a sneaky way to center on the bore without the usual time consuming centering process)
And cut everything with the reciever or barrel lined up by the bore, not the outside profile like collet chucks do.

I saw Remington wack off tubing with a CNC hack saw,
Ground the ends in bulk,
Then throw them into a CNC milling machine to cut slots, pilot holes for drilling,
Yank them out, run them through a manual threading machine to cut barrel threads,
Never ONCE checking the INSIDE BORE for true,
Never once piloting the inside bore to checking for the barrel face to be true/square!

Its fast, but not what I'd call 'Accurate'...

The barrel production was a little better,
The barrel blank gets chucked up in a collet chuck,
So it indexes of the outside profile instead of the bore,
And its rifled, then cut to profile,
Then they rough ream the chamber, depending on what round it's supposed to fire,
And the barrel threads are DIE cut, then its off to finish.

When its finished and screwed onto the reciever,
The chamber is finished so the bolt will close, checked for headspace,
And corrected if nessary.

I was impressed with the speed they can produce the barreled actions,
Appalled at the way they get there.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I like to pick up AR barrels, and common barrels that have good rifling when I stumble across them.
Easy to clean up and flip to someone that wants an accurate barrel without the cost of a custom barrel.

Guys that shoot a lot usually have more than one rifle in the same caliber,
So accurate INTERCHANGABLE ammo makes things easier on them,
And if they shoot a lot, the rifle is a user, so a 'Used' barrel doesn't bother them.

I'm a firm believer in gauges, getting things EXACTLY right, probably a little OCD showing there!
I only shoot about 5,000 rounds a year, mostly .223 Rem, and I use several rifles,
The ammo interchanges and the rifles conform to the ammo at SAAMI specs,
And shoots equally well in about all cases (Barring barrel twist rates).
I also load ammo for my friends, most of which I've corrected their rifles to shoot SAAMI ammo.

There is no stinking way I'm going to sort, seperate, change settings to accomodate that many rifles!
I'd rather make the rifle fit the ammo ONCE,
Rather than make the ammo fit different rifles 5,000 times just for my shooting alone!

*IF* I had only one rifle in a specific caliber,
And I only shot 100 or 200 rounds a year, then I'd do exactly what the guys are recommending, fire form, neck size, and call it a day.
Big difference between a couple of hundred rounds, and 5,000 to 50,000 rounds a year!

For instance my .45-120 Sharps (original, not a 'Quigley' copy),
I don't think those cases have ever been full length resized in the 40+ years I've owned it.
My grandpas Creedmore is the same way, its not like I'm ever going to own, or run into anyone else that has an odd ball like that...

I throw a few rounds through it every 5 years or so, so its no deal,
And cutting on those rifles is a mortal sin!


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Here here.
> If you can make quality ammo to shoot reliably and accurately in your rifle, who cares what the gauge says?
> 
> The barrel may be stamped ".308 Win", but I say call it a ".309 Pete", and load for it.
> ...


Agreed, and then there's the aspect that chamber reamers actually wear, not every chamber cut with the same reamer will have identical specs. 

Case in point and few years ago 2 of the guys I shot BPCR silhouette with designed a "chamber & throat" to accommodate a specific brass thickness, bullet diameter and shape to maximize their accuracy and reduce/eliminate the requirement to size their brass. It basically mimicked a popular load in another cartridge (40-65) but allowed all the grease grooves to be covered on the bullet. They called it the .40-70 (M) and had the NRA board approve it since it was extremely similar to both the .40-70 W, and .40-82 W case dimensions. With a different bullet and power it reached 1330 FPS which made it suitable for 1000 yard matches.

I also borrowed this reamer when I had a custom rifle built, so there were about 10 rifles chambered using this reamer, and not every chamber is exactly the same. 

Chuck


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## Veedog (May 4, 2015)

Hey Jeep do you care to share your "sneaky way" to center the bore? I'm just getting into chambering and that myself. I'm going to use a 1.5"-2" long stem indicator to dial in the barrel off the lands and grooves to chamber. Instead of indicator rods. Seems to be the way that things have progressed to more recently. Just wish I had some knowledgable folk close to me in SE WI here. I didn't even know you could get a no chatter reamer. I thought chatter was from the barrel quality and speed of the reamer. Where do you get your reamers from? And I thought the spinning bushing was the way to go nowadays. It keeps the reamer true to the bore its following. I'm new at this so I'm just trying to pick up extra ideas and see if I can use them myself is all.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> I like to pick up AR barrels, and common barrels that have good rifling when I stumble across them.
> Easy to clean up and flip to someone that wants an accurate barrel without the cost of a custom barrel.
> 
> Guys that shoot a lot usually have more than one rifle in the same caliber,
> ...


thank you we are in agreement on something , you are coming at things from a very very high volume shooter , the average homesteader has a few guns in a handful of calibers and frequently use one to 5 guns for almost all there hunting and work , the majority of the people I know do almost all their hunting with a few guns a rifle , a shotgun and a 22 , they might have a pistol or two maybe there might be grandpas old rifle or shotgun that is kept mainly for sentimental reasons , most of my relatives have a shotgun and a 22 a few might have a Bow a few more might have a rifle or two , I live in a county where it is not uncommon for a 16 year old kid to pull up in a truck and have a 22 or a shotgun behind the seat , but when you start talking guns they have everything in the hunting or farming context. a center fire rifle that sees more than a few hundred rounds in a year here is unusual unless your a handful of regulars at he range we have about 30 members at the range most make it a few times a year at most. 
a farmer friend of mine I trap for from time to time , asked me if I knew where he could find more 22 shells he was down to his last 10 and this was in the middle of the shortage , I asked him what he had for a 22 you never know who has an old 22 short around here and not a 22lr, he said a 22 , I asked who made it he went and got it from the back door of the house it was older ruger 10/22 but all he know was how to use it , make model none of that made any difference to him he had actually never bought any for it he got the rifle and ammo with the farm when his dad turned the farm over to him that has lasted him years ,I had 25 rounds that I gave him that day that were in my truck , and when I found some at the store I bough them up and called him , a Remington bulk pack of 225 golden bullets and he though he would be set for many years 

so perhaps we should both be gauging our answers for the volume we are answering them for and state that


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

My point was not to direct a 'Novice' towards something an experenced reloader should be attempting.
Not enough experence to tell when they are getting into trouble.

I learned young from experenced people, but I've found out most people are self taught from a 'Book' or article,
And lets face it, there are some pretty wild ideas out there in print, and that doesn't include the mis-prints which are abdundant!
With the advent of the Internet, you can find every stupid, time wasting a and down right dangerous thing you couldn't ever think of on your own!

I'm not the best at some finishes, and I stumbled onto a recipe for an acidic sloution for etching, the guy 'Sounded' like he knew what he was talking about...
Good thing I won't work without safety glasses, but they didn't save my eyebrows!
(I have a problem with keeping eyebrows...)

I just don't want anyone to get hurt, and the best way to accomplish that is to default to SAAMI and credible reloading manuals...
That's ManualS, with a big 'S', Plurl, more than one printed source on load information.
Too many misprints and too important when reloading,
Check two or three sources and see if they agree more or less,
If one is way off the other two, its a misprint!

The RCBS reloading manual had me running a short-fat case all over the bench,
WAY over in the book, corrected a couple years later when I got an updated copy...
Those little booklets the powder companies throw out time to time often have misprints.

I try NOT to confuse people either,
When you don't know the people face to face, you can't judge skill level or common sense...


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Veedog, check your inbox.

The deal with being a gunsmith is trying to balance what the customer wants with what's safe and practical.

If a guy does his own work, or wants to change something up,
That's ENTIRELY his business.

You, as a second party, and working as a professional, have liability and a responsibility to provide a SAFE firearm first off,
And try to talk common sense into the customer in the second place.

95% of the customers you see won't reload.
They *MIGHT* buy some dies and have a 'Friend' reload for them,
But they won't do it themselves,
And that drags a THIRD party into the mix!
He blames you if something goes wrong, you have to defend your work.
If its almost always to SAAMI specification, that makes defending your work a lot easier.

There is no reason you can't make a SAAMI round a tack driver with off the shelf ammunition... (Reasonable quality ammunition)
Simply make the firearm fit SAAMI rounds, and you are good all the way around.

I went hog wild with the wildcat, freaky stuff when I got rolling,
After custom dies, gauges, all the crap that goes with those freaky rounds,
I've come back around to mostly stock stuff,
A lot less work, good accuracy, and did I mention a lot less work?...


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Pete,
By far and away, most small volume shooters BUY their ammo,
SAAMI spec by default.

A lot more are shotgun shooters, again, a very low reload ratio.

There are a lot of guys that pick up brass, intending to reload 'Someday' but they just never get around to it...

The guys that do produce ammo by far and a way are the two are three box at a time types.
These are the ones that are all over the place,
And I don't 'Blame' them.

Reloading supply companies are still making POWDER SCOOPS with modern powders!
It was hard to screw up black powder with a VOLUME scoop,
But a volume scoop is a really good way to screw things up DANGEROUSLY with modern powders that pack/compress...
With modern powders a scoop is a HUGE way to get into trouble!
A 'Scoop' of modern super hot powder WILl destroy the firearm, and even catastrophically.
When a .45 ACP case that's supposed to get 3.5 or 4 grains, and it gets 4 times that,
The guy pulling the trigger is in BIG trouble...
A scale is MANDATORY with modern powders, but a guy ordering a hammer die with scoops included doesn't know that...

The reloading die companies don't classify their dies,
No self regulation, and they use confusing terms that overlap.
Good way to wind up with WAY out of spec cartridges, expanded shoulders, punched heads, thin cases ready to seperate, ect.

There ARE really good books out there on reloading,
NRA is excellent, but out of print the last time I heard,
Lee & RCBS have pretty good manuals, bit use propritary products to their brands,
And some places just make better products for a specific application, you won't rear about them from ONE source.

The other thing is the Internet.
No reads the entire book anymore.
Lots of bad, stupid, dangerous information out there.
A 'Reloading Page' that pops up may look 'Professional', but you have no idea what the 'Reloading' skill level just because the page looks good...
(An IDIOT in Louisville, KY is recommending you add 'Drops' of eythel alcohol to powder to keep it from drawing moisture while its in storage!)

I just don't want anyone to get hurt first off...
Secondly, I don't want the ammo to damage the firearm.
Third, and last, I would like to contribute to an active firearms enthusiast learn more a out his hobby, and maybe increase their accuracy, or reduce costs.

That's why I always use the fall back/default position of 'Factory' or SAAMI.
Once they learn to make SAAMI rounds,
Then, and only then have they gained the manual skills to attempt at something off specification...

I'm sure most of you didn't start out making 'Custom' rounds,
Unless someone showed you the basics first, an accelerated education,
And showed you how to do custom rounds.

A guy with a book NEEDS to learn to get specification ammo,
Crush a few case shoulders, what causes it, how to fix it,
Hydraulic a few case shoulders with excess lube, and learn how to fix it.

We forget that stuff once you figure it out,
And don't realize it was the learning process that got you where you are today,
With enough experence to make SAFE & RATIONAL judgments on changes from specification.

I KNOW YOU ARE TRYING TO HELP THE GUYS,
With 'Shortcuts' and advanced knowledge,
But the learning process is important!
Safety proccdures are important!
You ONLY learn those by doing...

I can make processing equipment,
Wiring, fabrication, ect. But I DON'T try to get people to build stuff over the Internet for a reason... 
Its the thousand or so things that went wrong before things going right I can't impart to the conversation...

My grandpa used to SMOKE while loading!
Didn't see the issue with it!
They also used to mix powder, and other things that make us cringe today!
(And you wonder how I loose eyebrows! I learned it the hard way!)


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

when I started reloading my first step was to get all the reloading manuals the library had and see which i liked , then I went the local gun store and purchased the 2nd edition Lee modern reloading , I read the first 200 pages this was the portion before load data in the manual that went over pressure , powder and many other things , I made notes , went back and read any chapter I had any questions on over again.

I would recommend anyone wanting to get into reloading do this pick a trusted manual and read it , follow it 

but there was nothing that said I Had to have a SAAMI cause gauge it didn't even cover buying them or using them it went over checking brass length it explained setting up the dies properly and checking over all length 
if one of the most commonly used reloading manuals on the market does not cover SAAMI case gauges I don't think it is an oversight not to use them , or recommend that they are the only right way.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

That's YOUR way of doing things.
For YOU, that's fine since you don't have liability for anyone else.

I started without a case gauge, same reason you did, and the people I learned from didn't use them either.
My first exposure to a case gauge was in the Marines,
Guys shooting over 1,000 yards regularly, and consistent at well over 1,000 yards.
Every round was to specification, no exceptions.

When I was taught to build rifles that shot over 1,000 yards under the worst possible conditions,
Every single rifle was built to exacting specification, so the ammo fit the rifle exactly to produce consistancy and the accuracy that consistancy allows.

There wouldn't be case gauges if they weren't useful,
And by the number of manufacturers and variations they produce,
I'd say that a lot of people use them.

There is a reason I say SAAMI case gauge, dies, ect.
Sporting/civilian rounds are SAAMI, military, wildcat, ect would take different dies, gauges, and specifications.
Its also the reason I say you can't really go wrong with SAAMI since the overwmimg number of firearms out there are SAAMI chambers (or are supposed to be).

If 'YOU' think you have enough experence to modify/deviate from what things are 'Supposed' to be,
That's your decision/choice.
Good luck in your experiments.

The guy with crushed shoulders is a prime example.
The case gauge is a go/no go gauge for him.
If it fits it cycles, of it doesn't, it doesn't cycle.
Simple and fast, along with being 'Correct' way to gauge the rounds for function before they get jammed in a chamber, or keep the bolt from locking and winding up with a bolt imbedded in your face...

Common sense argues FOR SAFETY,
To error on the safe side...

A case gauge will allow you to determine 'Safe',
Safe shoulders that close up headspace,
Safe case necks that allow for proper freebore,
Safe resizing of the case so it doesn't wedge into the chamber creating unsafe headspace or bolt coming fully into battery.

Not to mention the time it saves in determining when the case needs trimmed!
I like time savers, and I have no issue with a second check on my work.
Screwups happen, and verification the work done is correct doesn't hurt a thing.

I only get these arguments from folks that haven't used a case gauge,
Once you use one, just the verification of your work and the time it saves makes it with the $20.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

holey cow...

anyway we load for three ar15 that are shot in competition by two juniors (one a back up gun.) we shoot until a barrel will not hold x ring at 600 yards. then throw it away (in a shelf somewhere). all our brass is full sized. (if a case fails to chamber during raped fire, it cost you a championship) so all full length sized, all brass goes through a trimming process that trims faster than a person can measure length. all brass trimmed. no crimp on target loads and bullets. all rounds go through a wilson go no go( about $28.00), all short line (200 and 300 yard targets ) is measured for overall length (+.000-.004 with a caliper). to make sure it will make it out a magazine during rapid fire. . all mid range (600 yard) is measured for ogive length (caliper with an ogive adapter about $120.00 total) as it does not have to be magazine feed. 

of ten thousand rounds we load yearly, about 20 have shoulder bulge. which can only be reliable caught (in our volume) with a go no go gauge. i still think a shoulder budge would keep a bolt gun from closing. 

we only shoot unsupported guns out to 1000 yards. and fire formed vs full length sizing is down the list on what makes a difference in accuracy (neck formed only will make brass last longer i admit.)

ahem,,,my son was on the winning world cup, under 21 team this year.. and on the third place world cup under 25 team. of which we reload about 1600 308 rounds a year for a bolt gun(when my daughter goes palma that will double) . the palma rifles have very tight chambers with bullets needing to be a very accurate .015 off the lands, .002 neck tension). (so a lot of accurate measuring) neck sized only fire formed, and full length sized virgin cases, all go no-go wilson gauged. and ogive lengthed.

i


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## Veedog (May 4, 2015)

ace admirer said:


> holey cow...
> 
> anyway we load for three ar15 that are shot in competition by two juniors (one a back up gun.) we shoot until a barrel will not hold x ring at 600 yards. then throw it away (in a shelf somewhere). all our brass is full sized. (if a case fails to chamber during raped fire, it cost you a championship) so all full length sized, all brass goes through a trimming process that trims faster than a person can measure length. all brass trimmed. no crimp on target loads and bullets. all rounds go through a wilson go no go( about $28.00), all short line (200 and 300 yard targets ) is measured for overall length (+.000-.004 with a caliper). to make sure it will make it out a magazine during rapid fire. . all mid range (600 yard) is measured for ogive length (caliper with an ogive adapter about $120.00 total) as it does not have to be magazine feed.
> 
> ...




Good hands on info here. I also believe that neck trimming and annealing is one of the most important thing for long range accuracy in bolt guns. Just to get a consistent release pressure on the bullet. So you don't have stringing. That really shows up at long distance. If you get your extreme spreads down, and necks trimmed, it's one less reason or worry. Also it sounds like you are teaching your kids very well. Nice to see youth that enjoy shooting. It carries over into other life skills for sure.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Congratulations on your kids' accomplishments,
And your loyalty/support!
Shows what kids can do with parental support and encouragement!
Great job on your part!

--------

I agree fully with the match loader.
The biggest thing there is MATCH barrels...
With ever so slightly over SAAMI spec chambers,
Match barrels are willing to sacrifice the brass for the sake of reliable loading,
The same thing for military chambers,
Slightly oversized (SAAMI) for for reliability in autoloaders...

Full length resizing solves that issue, which the guy does.

As for bulged shoulders, it happens.
No rhyme or reason I can tell,
I don't use a seater/crimp die, just a seater, and I still get them once in a while.
Snag on the bullet as it seats, speck of grit inside the case, slightly oversize bullet?
But I still get one in about every 200 rounds no matter what I try...

I got them on a single press,
I get them on turret press,
I get them on my auto index press...
Don't know how it happens, so I can't 'Fix' the issue.

I don't trim every case, but I'm not shooting competition anymore.
Rapid check for length the first couple uses,
Then trim to minimum, and they usually split or get thin before they need trimming again.
Competition, I would simply trim every case after resizing...

I LOVE my Rock Chucker for its consistancy,
I LIKE my progressive for its volume/speed, 
But that progressive (Dillon XL650) took a LOT of tuning to get really consistancy rounds...
Especially with mixed brass!

I clean with steel pins/water/soap, so the brass is usually as close to spotless as a guy can hope for with reloading...
Fast and really clean brass. Easy to do up to 2,000 .223 rounds at a time.

One thing I did was mount an ogive go/no go gauge on the case gauge for my long range .30 cal rounds.
Rod holder on the case gauge, rod holding ogive ring, weak spring.
Groove on the rod shows me the ogive position with a slight press on the case in the gauge.

Checking for bullet diameter its home made gauge again,
A tight tolerance hole on top, oversize bullets won't drop through,
Undersized bullets drop through the second, slightly smaller gauge.
If they won't drop through the first ring, discarded for match use,
Drop through the second ring, discarded for match use.

Then I weigh the bulled that pass the gauges.
Not the right weight, discarded and used for plinking ammo.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

JeepHammer,

Thanks, the shooting sports has been a great sport to help me grow my kids. Its not me, its all the great people involved in the sport. 

frankford arsenal from (midwayusa) put a ss pin/tumbler kit on sale for $168. I finally broke down and started ss pin cleaning. I was so impressed that i ran the tumbler two weeks straight re cleaning all our media/vibrated cleaned brass.

Might you give me insight on how you separate your pins from brass? if not in this thread, might you start one on the subject? 

I'm just reaching into the wet tumbler and grasping brass, neck down and shaking the pins out. i heave GREAT fear of sending a pin down an expensive barrel.. Thank You


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I use a turning cage drum to seperate pins from cases.
A tumbler drum that's got slots in it, only its powered so I can walk away and let it run.

What I found with the hand cranked commercial plastic units were volume,
Just not enough capacity, I'm not doing 50 or 100 rounds.

The second thing was the common ones didnt have any way to stand the brass on end as it rotated.
So I put 'Vanes' in mine, like he 'Vanes' or 'Paddles' in a cloths dryer drums.
Sheet metal simply folded and tacked into place in the drum.

I'm not sure what the drum was for originally, its 316 stainless with 0.200" wide slots about 0.750" long.
316 stainless means its probably food grade, a strainer or collender or something like that.
It has a lip on top, so it was easy to put a lid on.

Turn it fairly slow so the brass doesn't bang from one side to the other, but ride the drum around.

I had a problem with short pins turning sideways in Maginum cases,
I went with a little longer pin.
I still use the short pins in stright cases, the longer ones in bottle neck cases.

I used skate board trucks/wheels to cradle the drum, holds up good to the weight,
And I use a commercial mixer motor to turn the drum,
Lots of torque, low speeds, 100% duty cycle without overheating or eating itself.

I use the same motor/cradle for the cleaning drum.
That's a pressure canner with fins tacked into it for mixing things up,
And the lid is water tight, already has a gasket, and its large enough for high volume cleaning.

Cleaned & Sized brass was quite the business for a while there during the Gun Snatch/Ammo Tax scares!
Range pickup after the police got done shooting the ranges up would net me between 5,000 & 10,000 mixed brass for the picking,
Once fired military brass in 4' x 4' by 4' deep bulk bins sold as scrap at two local military installations, sold at auction by weight, provided a constant source of income and brass...

Just plain money in the bank!
When idiots are willing to pay 15 to 25 cents a brass, I'm just the idiot to supply that brass!
I was thinking about making even larger tumblers at one point,
But I have a bad back, and at some point I was going to need something to lift the drums,
Or use a cement mixer type open face drum that I could dump...

Depending on what the size the brass is,
Between about 3,000 pistol brass, to about 1,500 .308 brass at a time without overloading or over packing the drums.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

How about a reloading in volume thread?
For guys doing what will fit into the average vibratory tumbler,
It wouldn't do those guys much good, but the guys tha do volume reloading it might pass some real time saving ideas back and forth.

When the brass is dry, it hits the cleaning drum again, no pins or water,
Just add a little powdered lube and turn for about 5 minutes,
Then into the case feeder to stand them up...

I got an idea from the Federal reloading plant,
A 'U' shaped sheet metal trough on a slope, with a vibrator to walk the cases down the ramp.
A rubber coated wheel set to maximum case length spits overly long cases off the feed ramp via a slot and brushes allowing the case to depart the ramp.
If its over length before sizing, it needs trimmed,
Under size passes to the case anneal.
The ramp trough has fairly short sides, so either flame or electrical induction works.

Everything gets the primers knocked out before cleaning, but military, and some civilian brass needs a primer crimp removed,
I have a power tool for that also.
Cutting is faster and can be semi automated while pressing/swaging the crimp is strictly a manual process for me.

I should probably go with resize and cut for length but the cost for the case trimmer for the Dillon is what I'm sticking on.
I had trimmers, semi automated, before I got the Dillon, or I'd fork over the bucks and get one.

My Dillon is still a manual pull, just like the factory intended.
This winter, I believe its going to get an air powered ram.
Air power will give me a more natural stroke than hydraulic or electric motor/mechanical linkage.

Air cylinders are easy make power both ways, so I think it will be air power...
Also, no chance for an ignition source with air.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

do know of Dick Whiting? Worlds best range announcer and used case processor?


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Ace,
The bullet diameter gauge I wrote about before will help with the neck tension issue.
Two gauge rings, one on top the other,
The bullet drops into the first, its not oversized (0.3085" instead of .308)
If the second ring doesn't catch it, then its undersized (0.3075" instead of .308")

What I do,
3 bins, one left, one under the gauge, one right,
Doesn't go through the first gauge, left,
Drops through the gauges, lands in the undersized bin.
Stops in the middle, right bin that goes to get weighed for over/under.

I can't speak for anyone else, everyone I ever met has their own way to cook up match and bench rifle loads...

I used only Winchester cases, one reload only...
Not that two or three or four loadings seemed to make the cases any inherently less accurate,
I didn't want to take the chance of a freak case seperation or split or what ever...
I'm sure cases that were on their 3rd or 4th go around wound up on the range,
But I made an effort not to use them more than twice.

It seemed to me that annealing the cases help them to hold the expansion ball sizing better,
So match cases got the heat.
With sizing gauges for the bullets, and necks staying where I wanted them, I got a pretty standard round out the other end of the process.

I always cracked open a fresh powder for match loads,
Using leftover for practice rounds.
The powders in my day could be a little contrary about humidity/moisture & even temperature at times. Don't actually know if there was any huge differences between powder that was sealed, or been open a month,
But I wasn't taking chances.

And I tried to get powder with consistant lot numbers.
If the lot number changed, I'd roll some test rounds, paying attention to muzzle velocity in particular.
I do know for a fact that nothing but a lot number change could move velocities up or down 100 FPS at times.
That's no issue at 100 yards, but it can be big at 1,000 yards!

I always kept a close eye on free bore/throat erosion.
Concentric throats are an issue also, uneven erosion.
For throating I always completely ignored the SAAMI specification and measured from bullet ogive I was shooting (168 Serria Match Kings),
And SAAMI specification was just too much freebore for me to tolerate.
Tight chambers are accurate chambers in most cases,
The case at SAAMI was fine, headspace on the tight side, but freebore for a round nose bullet wasn't going to cut it!

The other thing I had to watch was case neck thickness.
Winchester was the most consistant common case back then,
That's why I used them, but you still had to watch them!

The cases are a LOT more consistant today, 
Die cutting and CNC inspection, but I think with the cost of brass today it would save them money/wear and tear on the hardware to keep more consistant and not throw thick cases that I have to shave and trim...


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

yeah, i agree,
we also weigh sort bullets, sierra will occasionally let an odd bullet or two slip into the wrong box. (77 gr in a 80 gn box for 223 or 168 in a 155 which would be the lost of a match and could get you dq'd in palma. ) will will start sorting by weight and land contact length. 

so far case neck thickness not a problem, but know it will be soon and we will have to do neck or more likely internal neck turning. 

we are required by USA Palma team to use lapua brass. I don't have an annealer wished i did. 

in 223, we use military once fired, but we have brass that is very old....we check internally for signs of case separation. before reloading.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

The old paper clip check for thinning cases,
Just strighten a paper clip, turn the end 90 degrees short enough to fit in the case neck,
And drag it up the case feeling for a 'Warble' that indicates a thin spot/start of seperation.

I found Lapua brass to be VERY accurate, not much to do to it mostly,
But I still gauged/checked every piece.

I gauge bullets for size AND round,
You would be surprised how many out of round, over/under size bullets there are.

Palma is an animal unto itself!
Frustrating to say the least...
Good place for me to get thrown out of! 

I tried to make my own brass, and its not nearly as easy as people think!
If it was, they would all be doing it!
Got very close to volume production of .22 rimfire, now its coming back in volume at reasonable prices,
So its no longer cost effective.
Had the dies worked out, had the bullet production worked out,
Hadn't stepped off into primer material at all or powders on a large scale yet.
Now I can press out/form .22 rimfire brass, but have no practical way or formula for priming.

This is a rabbit hole I dumped a ton of money into...


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## hihobaron (Oct 5, 2015)

Good Point all,
I have loaded both NM for 1000 yards as well as just fun ammo, including Cast Bullet BP rifle and Pistol loads were good data and good dimensions can be hard to come by.
Yes, I follow guide lines in the books, but fit to my guns is the prime requirement and a safe accurate load. I have a batch of commercial reloads on Lake City Match Brass 
(7.62 Nato)here right now that will not Extract right from my Ruger Scout rifle with a light sniper grade barrel. With it being a Bolt action it has enough closing force to chamber but when fired the bolt almost needs to banged to extract the spent round.
Like everything else gun, different things work for different guns and people.
Ask any reloader and you will get different tricks they use to get the performance they want out of their guns. Reloading is NOT a one thing works for and has to be used in all cases. Reloading is about what is SAFE, Acurate, and works well for your use.
I also work breed and train horses and deal with believe it or not the same kind of dogmatic reposes related to different training methods used on horses. I run into the same attitude as some people here in reloading as far as "There is only one way to do it"
There are many ways to reload and be safe, I have started many people in the basics of reloading for "FUN" and economy, it dose not need to be rocket science.
That is all figured out by MFG. long ago.
Cookbook reloading and simple basic operation will do for most people.
Happy Trails
hihobaron


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

Wow, you guys really get into it. 

I have reloaded shotgun for decades, both trap and hunting. Didn't really get into rifle and pistol until late in life. I reload for them because the ammo is a bit cheaper and a bit more accurate. Gives me something to do around here in the winter other than ice fishing. 

Most shooters, like me, are only interested in whether the rifle/ammo is accurate enough to cleanly take down a deer or varmint. I follow the instructions in the manual and that's good enough. I have no idea what head space is. The cartridges fit in the gun and go bang, period. 

I have found that a load a bit below maximum is more accurate. My Remington 7400 meat getter is plenty accurate. My Browning A-bolt is scary accurate, way better than I am. I can't hit the broad side of a barn with the 357 revolver, even if I am standing inside of it, so revolver shooting is just for fun.

What I have and what I do works just fine for me. I don't need to befuddle this old brain any more than it already is. You guys have fun.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

shot gun is head spaced off the rim of the shell. no problem..BUT with high loads used in rifle and some pistols that are headspaced from the mouth or shoulder,,,,,could be extremely dangerous if excessive headspace.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

It's the difference between 'Nerd' & 'Geek',
Nerds do a lot of reading, but very little practical,
And they take shortcuts in the practical.

Nerds are annoying because they ALWAYS talk way outside their depth of knowledge,
And like to ARGUE...
Not because they are trying to get a CORRECT point across,
But arguments, and getting corrected seven ways from Sunday,
Having people absloiutely PROVE they are wrong,
And in the process provide them with the correct proof/information without them actually having to look it up/do any actual work...

Geeks are talented 'Doers',
They have tried something that didnt turn out quite right,
Then dug in, did the research, broke the parts, asked the right questions, ect.
Put the time & effort in to actually be proficient...

If you have a FORMAL EDUCATION IN ALL ASPECTS,
And you actually know EVERYTHING, then you are an engineer.
When you can formulate the steel nessary to hold back the pressure of the round you are developing from scratch,
Then you are an Engineer.

I have formal (Military) training, but I'm no engineer,
Just a geek that's more trial & error than for sight and planning.
I got all the books, read them, then went out and lost at long range shoots,
Then learned hands on from the guys that were beating me,
Until they were no longer consistently beating me like a rug.

By trying EVERYTHING, beating every myth or idea to death,
I figured out what works and what I didn't have to worry about.

#1 Rule, ALWAYS SAFE!
That's not always easy because the danger signs aren't always obvious.
That's why I'll never tell anyone to build out of SAAMI specification rounds,
And never tell anyone its 'OK' to load hotter than the recommended factory loads.

That's also why I say if you have a sloppy, shot out, over secification barrel,
Its time to see a gunsmith that knows what he's doing.

I'd never tell someone it was 'OK' to use an oversize chamber without actually measuring the inside/outside of the chamber to see if that chamber was swollen to the point its ready to fail...

Learn how to build ammo to specification, and I mean EXACTLY to specification,
Then you gain experence on what you *Might* be able to get away with.

When you can load/shoot to slug them all in the same hole at 50 yards,
Then 100 yards, then 150 yards, and so on,
The next challenge is to get your sights/mounts/optics aligned so you can change ranges with a sight adjustment and still get hits at any given range.
Most guys that 'Say' they shoot well at 100 yards are completely lost when you change ranges on them.

When you can shoot right on the ballistics tables, you are doing pretty good,
Most people get bored or run out of ammo money long before that...


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