# Has God forsaken America?



## Countrybumpkin (May 12, 2002)

Don't know how many of you read the website The Coming Depression, but it has an article on it today about all the problems facing America today-war, crime, drought, immorality, etc and it has got me wondering-I know God does not foresake anyone, and I also know that most people have forsaken Him, so do you think He decided to take a vacation? Just sort of give up on us as a country, judging it too far gone? Maybe I'm over thinking all this, but in the wake of the terrible CO shooting, not to mention everything else going on right now, perhaps He no longer blesses this once-great country.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

God hasn't forsaken America. America kicked him out.


----------



## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

Yep, America has turned it's back on God. 
When prayer got taken out of school and students can't really be taught ANYTHING at all about God, and the majority of Americans don't attend church, what is one really to expect?
The country was founded on religious freedom and the forefathers were God fearing people. 
Not anymore. Society has moved so far away from God - "We don't need Him, we do just fine on our own."
I'm surprised "God bless America" is still printed on our money and still said by the President when he addresses our country. I figure in a few years, that won't be allowed anymore either.


----------



## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

I don't agree. 

The area I live in has more people attending Church than ever. I know most of the folks in my small town go to church.

I think what might be happening is that we're becoming aware of other religions. It's like if you saw everything with red glasses on you'd get used to everything being red. Then one day someone takes your red glasses off you see all of the colors. After a while you're asking where all of the red stuff went. 

We've always had people who were of non-Christian religions in this country. Usually they hid their eligion for fear of being an outcast or because of the intense pressure to conform. Then the 60's hit and non-conformity and freedom to be "out" started. People are more upfront about their beliefs and it's being more accepted. We've also had a deluge of immigrants from typically non-Christian countries and these immigrants have also brought their religion. 

While I wish it weren't so, people are sometimes not 'getting' anything of Christianity and go "Church Shopping"-sometimes even "Faith Shopping". We live in a society where we look to things to fulfil spiritual needs and we demand instant gratification. While other religions don't satisfy these needs either, people are finding it easier to look around and see what fits. This has led to the decline of Christianity.

So yes, we have more people who are more open about their faith, but you're assuming that has taken something away from Christianity. I'm willing to bet that there are more evangelical christians out there now than ever before. I know that there are now two Christian radio stations that serve our area. 

We've also politicized our faith and that has caused a lot of problems. I believe there's a special place in Hell for politicans who use religion of any faith to get votes. (I'd say more, but this is in CF and I'm probably going to get this post deleted for this paragraph.)


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I didn't say the people have kicked God out. The govt has kicked God out. No nativity scenes on govt property at Christmas. The 10 commandments removed from govt property. Refusing to allow any discussion of God and christianity in the public schools although other religions are encouraged. The continued mis-interpretation of the FIRST amendment. I could go on because these are only a few examples.

KnowOneSpecial, I agree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph. It's part of the reason I no longer attend a church. I don't want the government telling me what, if any, religion I must practice. And conversely I don't want a preacher telling me which crooked politician I should vote for.

IMO if all the religious groups got together and _demanded_ the politicians answer for their crooked ways, the whole country would be much better.


----------



## alpacaspinner (Feb 5, 2012)

> The govt has kicked God out. No nativity scenes on govt property at Christmas. The 10 commandments removed from govt property. Refusing to allow any discussion of God and christianity in the public schools although other religions are encouraged. The continued mis-interpretation of the FIRST amendment.


Do you really think that god cares about any of that? Seems rather petty of him if he does. These seem to be problems for people to be concerned about (or not), not an all-seeing, all powerful god. I thought god was more interested in individuals, and not so much in governments. But quite possibly I am wrong.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

From the standpoint of most historians, there seems a fairly common thread through most countries or societies throughout history, from pre-Roman on. A society or country will get established, develop into a national or international power over time. It eventually gets too big to be successfully managed effectively, the governing powers get corrupt or venial and/or they try expanding beyond what the infrastructure and economy can support. That starts the disintegration from within while at the same time another country/society is building upwards to become the next 'world power'. 

Very basic and simplified, of course, but it has happened to multiple civilizations throughout history. This is not something that happens just in Christian countries, it has happened repeatedly in many different countries across the world, regardless of the religion involved. 

I don't think the disintegration can be attributed to the god or gods of whatever religion is the basic religion for each of those countries *forsaking* the people of that country, including countries that are predominantly Christian.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Never said God wasn't petty. In fact in the Bible he says he is a jealous God.
If the people have no control over the govt, the govt controls the people. 

Any more about what I believe and this topic will get closed down. The writing is there for those who can read it. Quite a few references to Babylon relate to (IMO) this country and what is happening here.


----------



## Countrybumpkin (May 12, 2002)

First off, I never meant this thread to be anything other than the rants of a depressed guy. I just think that we as a country have misplaced God in our daily life, and it sadly shows. I also see the logic in SFM's thread. But, being a believer, I really think God is showing His displeasure in our current actions.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Countrybumpkin said:


> But, being a believer, I really think God is showing His displeasure in our current actions.


Maybe so, but which actions is he showing displeasure with? Outspoken religious zealots always assume that God is displeased with gay marriage, no prayer in school, and turning a blind eye to general moral debauchery. Perhaps God is upset with our government, but he's upset with war, poverty, and the lack of universal healthcare.


----------



## Smalltowngirl (Mar 28, 2010)

Who was God displeased with during the dust bowl years or during the Great Depression?? During both of those events not to mention the Civil War, we as a country didn't have TV's, Internet, a large number of women in the workforce, 'Free Love' or even the Pill. Parents parented their children, schools had prayer & the majority of the citizenry were churchgoers so I don't see a correlation with God's displeasure & our current economic, climatological or sociological challenges.


----------



## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

"god" has nothing to do with how humans have screwed and keeps screwing things up. Human race is to blame...greed...fear...hate....all human things.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

NickieL said:


> "god" has nothing to do with how humans have screwed and keeps screwing things up. Human race is to blame...greed...fear...hate....all human things.


Or maybe he doesn't look at it that way. Maybe God is impressed with what a fabulous society humans have built for themselves.


----------



## marytx (Dec 4, 2002)

nevada said:


> or maybe he doesn't look at it that way. Maybe god is impressed with what a fabulous society humans have built for themselves.


seriously?!


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mary said:


> seriously?!


You aren't impressed with the advances society has made in our lifetime? Advances in flight, infrastructure, medicine, and even the Internet don't impress you?


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I would think the fact that 6 million children die of hunger each year on our planet is a pretty good indicator that any deities that exist aren't overly concerned with human affairs. :shrug:


----------



## Buzz Killington (Jan 12, 2012)

> read the website The Coming Depression,


Maybe you shouldn't be reading a website called "The Coming Depression." Seems like they probably don't focus on much of the good stuff and highlight a lot of the bad. 

Sometimes it's miraculous what a change of scenery will do for a persons outlook on things.


----------



## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

Personally, I don't believe God blesses or forsakes anyone, any government, or any country under this dispensation of His Word.

Of course, he had warnings for the children of Israel to keep what he handed to them and they would be blessed, if not, they would have terrible times. BUT, that was under the old law and it was under a theocratic government.

Today, He no longer controls our government. He doesn't punish countries or people under this dispensation. Punishment of any form is meted out at the Judgment.

JMHO


----------



## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Nevada said:


> Maybe so, but which actions is he showing displeasure with? Outspoken religious zealots always assume that God is displeased with gay marriage, no prayer in school, and turning a blind eye to general moral debauchery. Perhaps God is upset with our government, but he's upset with war, poverty, and the lack of universal healthcare.


Like I have said before, you need to read a bible. You clearly don't know or understand what It says. If you have read one, read it again.


----------



## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

America has forsaken God. I'm afraid that we're going to get what we asked for.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Possum Belly said:


> Like I have said before, you need to read a bible. You clearly don't know or understand what It says. If you have read one, read it again.


Christ seemed very concerned with things like poverty and healing the afflicted, and I don't recall his asking for evidence of healthcare insurance before laying his healing hands on the ill.


----------



## OUVickie (Mar 8, 2003)

During the period of time Christ was on earth, the world was a very dangerous place to live. Just like it is now. People were massacred, raped, tortured, etc.

IMO, the difference between now and then is the media - we have the ability to know about all of the bad things going on, instantly.

God still sent his Son as a gift (Christianity) - the most precious gift we've ever received - even though the world was and is a very evil place. I don't believe that God has ever intended to force His will on us, we have the right to choose our path in life. Freewill. Just as it was back then, some people choose to follow a negative/evil path in life.
There are many, many more people on Earth now than there was then. I wonder, mathmatically speaking, if the world is more or less evil?
I mean, the ratio of crime to population then and now. Just a thought, in regards to history and such.
Thanks for starting the discussion!


----------



## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Nevada said:


> Christ seemed very concerned with things like poverty and healing the afflicted, and I don't recall his asking for evidence of healthcare insurance before laying his healing hands on the ill.


I was not referring to healthcare. Or His laying His healing hands on the ill.


----------



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

God forsaking anything would be humanizing God is my belief...So the question is moot.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

God forsook Jesus when he was on the cross.


----------



## Mickey (Aug 28, 2002)

willow_girl said:


> I would think the fact that 6 million children die of hunger each year on our planet is a pretty good indicator that any deities that exist aren't overly concerned with human affairs. :shrug:


Just as in the case of abortion God isn't the one killing the babies nor is he the one starving the children. He gave us free will and he commanded us to take care of the little ones.


----------



## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

God will not completely forsake anyplace if there is one person calling on him for grace and mercy. As long as Christians remain on this planet God will be there for them. 

Yes, there are problems on this earth, there is suffering. Sadly we humans have the tools we need to alleviate most of it. I believe God gave us the raw materials we need to solve every problem but in our sinful state we don't do it for reasons of greed, insecurity, lack of faith, general inertia.I believe we will all have to render an account in the last days for our lack, but God forgives and knows that we are only human and frail. Without his Grace we have no hope. Jesus promised to never forsake us- even unto the end of the world. So he is surely still here in America...


----------



## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Possum Belly said:


> Like I have said before, you need to read a bible. You clearly don't know or understand what It says. If you have read one, read it again.


God does not equal bible. God is not solely the property of christianity


----------



## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Michael W. Smith said:


> Yep, America has turned it's back on God.
> When prayer got taken out of school and students can't really be taught ANYTHING at all about God, and the majority of Americans don't attend church, what is one really to expect?
> The country was founded on religious freedom and the forefathers were God fearing people.
> Not anymore. Society has moved so far away from God - "We don't need Him, we do just fine on our own."
> I'm surprised "God bless America" is still printed on our money and still said by the President when he addresses our country. I figure in a few years, that won't be allowed anymore either.


I disagree with you. Prayers in school and students being taught about god all mean about the christian god. 

God is not christian. God is God. People are christian and muslim and buddhist, etc. 

You are complaining about christianity being taken out of schools and teaching and the president, etc. Not God.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Christ seemed very concerned with things like poverty and healing the afflicted, and I don't recall his asking for evidence of healthcare insurance before laying his healing hands on the ill.


Thats quite true.... but He did require the "patient" to have faith. He also promises that those who do have faith will be healed.... even today and without the need for high dollar "cures". However JC is not the Mayo clinic... who does involve itself with things like ability to pay for services rendered. I guess we can all choose to either go with faith for the cheap healing or with medical science which costs a bit more.


----------



## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

In a word, almost.

We're just about to the point where the "Lots" will be ordered out for their own protection, after which......don't look back.


----------



## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Nevada said:


> Or maybe he doesn't look at it that way. Maybe God is impressed with what a fabulous society humans have built for themselves.


:hysterical:ound::hysterical:


----------



## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

or................... :sob: :sob: :sob:


----------



## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Forerunner said:


> or................... :sob: :sob: :sob:


I think yours is best FR. Thanks.


----------



## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Well, his was kinda funny, at first glance......... :indif:


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Sodom and Gomorrah were overthrown for their wicked ways. Even though there was one righteous person living there, the cities were destroyed. But Lot was saved because he was taken out of the path of God's wrath. God also repented that he made man. Only 8 people out of all the world were saved. The city of Jericho was destroyed and only Rahab and those in her house were left alive. Many many instances of God's destruction of his creation. Who am I to say it's not going to happen or isn't happening here?


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Just as in the case of abortion God isn't the one killing the babies nor is he the one starving the children. He gave us free will and he commanded us to take care of the little ones.


Ehh. If you believe the Bible, the Judeo-Christian version has the power to rain down manna from the heavens. Apparently he isn't interested in doing so nowadays. 

I can't believe a single person here would let a child starve before their eyes without intervening if it was in his or her power to do so.

If a god exists, he/she/it obviously has a morality vastly different than human morality.


----------



## whodunit (Mar 29, 2004)

Shygal said:


> God does not equal bible. God is not solely the property of christianity


I agree but from a different perspective. 

"God" is pretty much a generic term. The God of the Bible has a name and it's YWH or "Yahweh" (with the vowels, which Hebrew does not have, included).


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

To the OP, we see several times in the Bible where God lifted his hand of protection from a place because the people turned from God. I do believe that Americans have, for the most part, turned from God. In 2nd Chronicles 7:14 we are told what our part is in fixing the problem. We must humble ourselves, REPENT and turn from our wicked ways. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that not many are willing to do this, or even believe there is a need for it. I also believe we are living in the last days, and from my own studies of the scriptures I have never seen any sign that the United States would still be a major player in the last days. So, I believe we'll still be here, but we will not be a strong nation. So I see this as a fullfillment of the scriptures. Something that we knew was coming, and although we fight against it happening, eventually it has to happen.


----------



## VinnyP (Nov 11, 2006)

As far as I can tell; God is a lot more concerned with people (individuals) than in political entities.

Hard times seem to always be followed by periods of growth that are compensatory. I think of it as the pruning mentioned in the parable of the vine and the branches (John 15).


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> God forsook Jesus when he was on the cross.


I don't think so. If God had forsaken Jesus on the cross then Jesus would not have been resurrected after he died on the cross. 

Jesus only cried out "God, why have you forsaken me?" in a time of agony, fear, weakness and loss of faith because he wasn't expecting or prepared for crucifixion and an excruciating death. You can't get much more extreme agony than being nailed to a cross and hung up to die. But that did not mean God had actually forsaken him, only that Jesus didn't have his expectations of God met in his time of agony. 

We are all susceptible to pain, fear, weakness and loss of faith in times of extremity. I think it's only natural for some people in times of extremity to lose faith in God and feel that God has forsaken them. I also think it's during those times of extremity that God sustains us the most without us even realizing.

I'm minded of two stories that have come up for me recently - footsteps in the sand and the Cherokee story of 2 wolves.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One night a man had a dream. He dreamed he was walking along the beach with the Lord. Across the dark sky flashed scenes from his life.

For each scene, he noticed two sets of footprints in the sand, one belonging to him and the other to the Lord.

When the last scene of his life flashed before him, he looked back at the footprints in the sand. He noticed that many times along the path of his life there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed that it happened at the very lowest and saddest times in his life.

This bothered him and he questioned the Lord about it. 

_"Lord, you said that once I decided to follow you, you'd walk with me all the way. But I have noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life there is only one set of footprints._

_I don't understand why when I needed you most you would leave me."_

The Lord replied

_"My precious, precious child, __I love you and would never leave you._

_During your times of trial and suffering when you see only one set of footprints in the sand, it was then that I carried you."_ 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. "A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy.

"It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. 

One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego." 

He continued, "The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. 

The same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too."

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"

The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Don't feed the evil wolf inside of you and have faith in God to sustain you when you most need it.

.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

VinnyP said:


> As far as I can tell; God is a lot more concerned with people (individuals) than in political entities.
> 
> Hard times seem to always be followed by periods of growth that are compensatory. I think of it as the pruning mentioned in the parable of the vine and the branches (John 15).


Although this is true, we also have to remember that God gave man what they asked for, a king. Man was not content having God rule over them, so they asked for a man to rule over them.


----------



## Mickey (Aug 28, 2002)

willow_girl said:


> Ehh. If you believe the Bible, the Judeo-Christian version has the power to rain down manna from the heavens. Apparently he isn't interested in doing so nowadays.
> 
> I can't believe a single person here would let a child starve before their eyes without intervening if it was in his or her power to do so.
> 
> If a god exists, he/she/it obviously has a morality vastly different than human morality.



And yet the children ARE still starving are they not? Is it because they're not before our very eyes, but a world away that we don't feel responsible for feeding them? Just as those that support a woman's right to murder her child thru abortion don't SEE what that means. 
It is indeed within our power, each and every one of us, (and not just Americans, but the entire world) to put a stop to hunger AND the senseless slaughter of innocent babies. "You did it to me."


----------



## MrManifesto (Sep 23, 2011)

the world has always been a harsh place. always will be.

if there is god, it doesn't mind how the world is.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

naturelover, whole 'nother topic. Jesus gave up his life, only by laying down his life was he able to take it up again. Remember that Pilate marveled that Jesus was dead already when Joseph asked permission to take his body.


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I also believe we are living in the last days, and from my own studies of the scriptures I have never seen any sign that the United States would still be a major player in the last days. So, I believe we'll still be here, but we will not be a strong nation.


I think a more likely explanation is the fact that the people who wrote the Bible had no idea the North American continent even existed!


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> And yet the children ARE still starving are they not? Is it because they're not before our very eyes, but a world away that we don't feel responsible for feeding them?


Annie Dillard wrote an interesting meditation that takes up the question as to why the suffering of people to whom we're not intimately connected is of so little concern to us. I believe the title is "For the Time Being." Worth a read!


----------



## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Shygal said:


> God does not equal bible. God is not solely the property of christianity


 You're correct,,,,, He is not our property,, we belong to Him..
And actually, on your first point... By His Holy Spirit,, the bible was written.
So,, yes,,, the bible does equal God,, its His own words to us..

Disagreeing doesn't change the fact that its true..
I don't mean to start or add to an ongoing arguement, but ,if you state something as a fact,,well,, you know the rules.
Its all about faith,,,You either believe that the bible is Gods word or you don't... 
Its a never ending debate that goes nowhere,, and wars are faught,, and friends are no more...
It doesn't have to be that way. I've come to have a new respect for you "shy". So I don't say this lightly.
As to God taking His hand off of America???
God can put His hand on anyone,, and any country he chooses to bless,,so He can surely take His hand away...
It is a fact tho that when a "believing" business owner is prosperous,he gives the credit at first to God,,, then after awhile,, that same owner begins to think he does it all on his own,,and then begins to fail...
A song I once heard explains my thoughts..
_ "Nothing comes to me,, that first comes thru Jesus love". _Even in prosperity,,, or hunger,, it all comes from Him..
Jesus stated,,, "There will always be the poor among you". 
GH


----------



## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

I see the problem _*being the*_ religious freedom under the Constitution. It isn't granting us simply the Christian God, but it grants religious freedom for every person's god. So of course we're going to clash and it only follows that, in order to not offend each other and enable those freedoms, laws are going to change and include more tolerance of all religious choices. Christian's arrogance and unability to tollerate others that don't believe as them have created this problem.

Our religious freedom as Christians is diminishing and we've cause that ourselves by not being tolerant to other religious choices. Rather than just allowing the laws to let us choose which religion we wish to follow, by not being tolerant in recognizing that other religions are just as important to others as our own Christianity is to us, we've caused more laws to move further and further into blocking our own religious freedom to choose Christianity. 

It's things like prayer in school. If we're praying to the Christian God and expecting non-Christians to not be offended, then we're not allowing them their freedom of choice. We're demanding they come along for the ride. You can bet that if a law existed that all schools would have to pray to Allah alone, we Christians would be more than protesting and blatten in demanding prayer be no longer allowed in school! You have to look at it from both sides.

What I don't get is why Christians feel they have to exhort their choices above others. Yes, we believe our God is the one and only true God; but the folks that have another god believe the exact same thing. Do we respect that? No, we block that. In turn the laws change to give them their freedom of religion which pushes our freedom further in the background.

As Christians, we're going to burn ourselves with our intolerance! Laws will not only continue to come about to protect other religious freedoms, but will change to block Christianity because of our intolerance and appearance of hatred for others. We appear as the enemy, not as Americans who embrace the Constitution and welcome all freedom of religion. Instead, we say 'ya'll are welcome' but we want to choose how, when, and to what extent they are permitted to practice their freedom of religion. Remember at the time this country was young and the Constitution was composed, there weren't thousands of different religions. There were only 3 types of believers living in America who were known to the writers at the time -- Christians (of various denominations), Agnostics and Atheists.


----------



## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

naturelover said:


> I don't think so. If God had forsaken Jesus on the cross then Jesus would not have been resurrected after he died on the cross.
> 
> Jesus only cried out "God, why have you forsaken me?" in a time of agony, fear, weakness and loss of faith because he wasn't expecting or prepared for crucifixion and an excruciating death. You can't get much more extreme agony than being nailed to a cross and hung up to die. But that did not mean God had actually forsaken him, only that Jesus didn't have his expectations of God met in his time of agony.


To anyone that has done an in depth study understands that God did indeed forsake His Son on the cross in the moment of death and it had nothing to do with Jesus' weakness or excruciating death.

The Bible clearly teaches that God cannot or will not look upon sin. A the moment of death, Jesus had the sins of the entire world, past, present, and future on His "shoulders." In that moment, God could not look upon his Son. So, yes, His Son died without His Father looking upon Him... forsaken.

You can also do an in-depth study of scapegoats in the bible. Jesus was the same as a "scape-goat". So he was sent out to die alone. He had to die alone in order to bear the sins of the world in His moment of death.

Yes, He was forsaken while He bore the sins of the world on His shoulders.


----------



## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Karen said:


> There were only 3 types of believers living in America who were known to the writers at the time -- Christians (of various denominations), Agnostics and Atheists.


Excellent post, but I would like to add that there were other believers here, believers in the spirit, divine, nature, etc. They were lumped into the "heathen" class by the original settlers though. But they were known to the writers. There were also Deists.


----------



## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Karen said:


> I see the problem _*being the*_ religious freedom under the Constitution. It isn't granting us simply the Christian God, but it grants religious freedom for every person's god. So of course we're going to clash and it only follows that, in order to not offend each other and enable those freedoms, laws are going to change and include more tolerance of all religious choices. Christian's arrogance and unability to tollerate others that don't believe as them have created this problem.
> 
> Our religious freedom as Christians is diminishing and we've cause that ourselves by not being tolerant to other religious choices. Rather than just allowing the laws to let us choose which religion we wish to follow, by not being tolerant in recognizing that other religions are just as important to others as our own Christianity is to us, we've caused more laws to move further and further into blocking our own religious freedom to choose Christianity.
> 
> ...


There were Jewish people in the colonies as well.

The god of the Muslims is very different from God. We don't all worship the same god. If you read the holy writings of religions other than Christianity, you will see a great difference. Our tolerance and kindness has allowed some of the radicals to think it is perfectly reasonable to expect our country to allow sharia law. They don't allow freedom in the countries they left and they want to deny it here.


----------



## bignugly (Jul 13, 2011)

How dare anybody say that God has forsaken America! God has had nothing to do with the state of current affairs in this country! Throughout history, mankind has done everything it can to destroy itself. Religion and people, NOT God have destroyed this country. God has given us the ability to think for ourselves but we consistently rely on someone else to make decisions for us whether we know it is right or wrong. Religious leaders are there to teach God's word and not to interpret what they believe God "meant". Religious leaders of all faiths condemn other faiths because they don't believe the same things. Christ did NOT condemn the beliefs of others but taught what he believed. The only time Christ ever got angry was when PEOPLE used God as a means of satisfying their own greed. There is nobody on the face of the Earth wise enough to judge anybody else.


----------



## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

Shygal said:


> God does not equal bible.
> 
> 2 Timothy 3:16.
> 
> ...



John 14:6.


********************
have some 'other' rational explanation?


----------



## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

My opinion is that God doesn't deal with countries, he deals with people.

A country can't turn its back on God, only people can.


----------



## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

America is not a person, it is a place. It is unlikely that our creator would reject a place he/she created. People in many countries are struggling with religious issues and spiritual issues. I can only imagine what folks were thinking God was up to during the great depression of the 30's. Many things (happenings) appear to be cyclic and perhaps it is merely our turn in the barrel. I do not feel abandoned by my creator at all. Each day I am shown how to make the best of my situation and as I follow his lead at the end of the day I am pleased and know that he is pleased.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

To answer the OP, it is obvious to anyone with eyes and ears what is happening to our country - and why. So......Yes. Maybe it would be better to say that WE have forsaken Him.

It is apparent that many people also don't understand our relationship with God.
The evil things that happen on this earth, we don't understand why He would not intervene and put a stop to it immediately, and many resort to blaming Him for it or ridiculing those of us who still love and respect Him, in spite of what happened.
This misunderstanding even extends to Christ's last words. I've heard many an ignorant sermon about His moment of doubt and pain and how He cried out for being forsaken.
How sad that they never bothered to read the 22nd psalm. If they had, they'd know two things.
1) He wasn't being forsaken, He was preaching and prophesying until the last moment.
2) He never addressed God as "God" on earth, He ALWAYS addressed Him as "Father."
Look it up.

How many of you have fathers?
Do your fathers allow you to grow up and make your own decision? And deal with the consequences of those decisions?
Does he give you his best advice beforehand and hope you follow it?
Do they try to help and comfort you when you fail and make mistakes?
Do they love you in spite of your ignorance?
Are they filled with joy when you finally figure it out and start doing well?

How much more would we be able to understand what is happening if we only thought of Him as Our Father?


----------



## jessimeredith (Sep 12, 2004)

Molly Mckee said:


> The god of the Muslims is very different from God. We don't all worship the same god. If you read the holy writings of religions other than Christianity, you will see a great difference. Our tolerance and kindness has allowed some of the radicals to think it is perfectly reasonable to expect our country to allow sharia law. They don't allow freedom in the countries they left and they want to deny it here.


I have to respectfully disagree...particularly with the first statement. They are one and the same. Have you read any part of the Koran (Quran)? There are parts that are remarkably similar to the Christian Bible. You might be surprised.

There are radicals in every religion...even Christianity. One word left...Westboro.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

NoClue said:


> My opinion is that God doesn't deal with countries, he deals with people.
> 
> A country can't turn its back on God, only people can.


But a country is made up of people. Look at Sodom and Gohmorah (sp). Look at Babylon. Look at the world during Noah's days. Yes, God deals with people, but when enough people in a country turn their backs on God then God has removed his hand of protection from them.


----------



## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

jessimeredith said:


> I have to respectfully disagree...particularly with the first statement. They are one and the same. Have you read any part of the Koran (Quran)? There are parts that are remarkably similar to the Christian Bible. You might be surprised.
> 
> There are radicals in every religion...even Christianity. One word left...Westboro.


Westboro is not a christian church. They can call themselves whatever they want but their actions speak for them. I don't think a group of 30 or so people is quite the same as the organized efforts in some American cities to use sharia law.

I have read the koran. Some of it is close to the Bible, some of it is very different. I'm not going to argue with anyone but IMHO, equating the Bible and koran is very dangerous. 

As Christians, we give others the right to believe as they choose. The koran gives others the right to believe as they do.


----------



## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

Karen said:


> I see the problem _*being the*_ religious freedom under the Constitution. It isn't granting us simply the Christian God, but it grants religious freedom for every person's god. So of course we're going to clash and it only follows that, in order to not offend each other and enable those freedoms, laws are going to change and include more tolerance of all religious choices. Christian's arrogance and unability to tollerate others that don't believe as them have created this problem.
> 
> Our religious freedom as Christians is diminishing and we've cause that ourselves by not being tolerant to other religious choices. Rather than just allowing the laws to let us choose which religion we wish to follow, by not being tolerant in recognizing that other religions are just as important to others as our own Christianity is to us, we've caused more laws to move further and further into blocking our own religious freedom to choose Christianity.
> 
> ...


...................Because in America religious freedom translates into political power and control of our elective bodies ! The Muslims , should they gain enough voting strength can elect and effectively control and establish a Muslim dominated legal , religious , and legislative society ! And , as we know from current and previous historical evidence that , THEY , doNOT , tolerate freedom of religion as we do under our Constitution !!!!! There are small numbers of different faith(s) existing in Muslim dominated countries , but , large numbers of any competiting religious belief will not be allowed too exist ! Muslims can't even CoExist with each other when there are significant numbers of the two major branches of Islam present in a single country ! They expend lots of their time murdering and blowing each other , Up ; the rest of the time they're focused on extinguishing the Jews from their homeland ! So much for Islam the religion of tolerance and love !
...................GOD hasn't given up on America ! Besides we have JESUS , the big shock absorber too absorb all our sinful ways and chastise US back into a lifestyle that is pleasing in the eyes of the ALMIGHTY ! , fordy:happy:


----------



## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

PaulNKS said:


> To anyone that has done an in depth study understands that God did indeed forsake His Son on the cross in the moment of death and it had nothing to do with Jesus' weakness or excruciating death.
> 
> The Bible clearly teaches that God cannot or will not look upon sin. A the moment of death, Jesus had the sins of the entire world, past, present, and future on His "shoulders." In that moment, God could not look upon his Son. So, yes, His Son died without His Father looking upon Him... forsaken.
> 
> ...


All good stuff, Paul. I always try to keep this math formula in my mind when I read NT: "Jesus=God". Doing so helps me work my way throught the tall weeds in such passages as this. Have you ever noticed that Jesus never refers to the Father as "My God"? He always says "My Father". The one and only exception is on the cross, which makes a guy have to ask, "Why is God quoting Ps 22?". To me that is the most pertinent question as it relates to the OPs question. America, as a nation, is just collateral in what is to come as told in the Bible. The individuals, both believers and non-believers, on the other hand, are certainly not just collateral.


----------



## jessimeredith (Sep 12, 2004)

I don't find it dangerous as both books were written by man with divine inspiration...but that is just me. And yes, Westboro is a Christian church as they believe in the principles of Christ (way, truth, light, etc.)...not the way others do per se but their interpretation is no less valid than any other church's interpretation (no, I'm not defending them...they exemplify for me all that is wrong with organized religion).

I suppose my issue is this: Muslim = evil, regardless on where they stand within their own religion, and Sharia law is their everything. It's a generalization on a religion from an outsider who self-righteously believes that only they can be right because their belief system was setup by divinely inspired men (wow...how similar they are).

The United States is a big country with so many more ethnic cultures and religions than even the Founding Fathers could have imagined. If history has taught us one thing it is that the few should not be in charge of making decisions for the many because it is easier to corrupt a few. The problem with the US is that the many take the word of the few as final...it is not a turning from God...it is blind faith at its best.


----------



## TnMtngirl (Jun 30, 2002)

No he is just bringing us to our knees.


----------



## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

Some of you need to go back and read a little history. This country is safer for individuals than it was at the turn of the 20th century and we have a great country and a great way of life. Nothing that is happening now is new or just emerging and after having lived a good part of my adult life in the middle east I find that most folks no matter what their religion just want to live in peace and prosperity and have no ingrained enmity towards any particular religion. But just as we have had for over a thousand years we have religious radicals on all sides who seek to impart their view of god on others.

I find all this talk about how this country is waning and newly immoral to be rather simplistic and the product of watching too much TV and if we arent careful it will become a self fulfilling prophecy. Just at what point in our history was everything all peaches and cream? I must have missed that in Jr High history.

Those of you who fear other religious beliefs need to do some introspection and ask your self why your own beliefs are so fragile that they are threatened like that.


----------



## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

willow_girl said:


> I think a more likely explanation is the fact that the people who wrote the Bible had no idea the North American continent even existed!


"2 Peter 1:20... Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

*In other words, they did not need to know,God was right there whispering in their ear what to write,and He knows.He should,After all,He created North America too.*


----------



## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

So now Americans are finding it so tough that they are once again "wondering where God is". God is right where He's always been..with us. I agree that God did not forsake Jesus..Jesus was quoting the prophecies in the Bible, so that things that were told would come to pass.

I don't believe America will be relevant in the end times. I believe we will be bordering on desperate times..no military, to help out. But, I do not believe that God will forsake His faithful..no way .. no how.

People made choices in this country. They chose to ignore God. They chose to put greedy/power hungry people in office. They chose to spend money recklessly. They chose to get entangled with "the world". They chose to turn down God's blessings because they all knew better than God. They have cloned animals, gmo'd the food, tried to hook everyone on some kind of medicine, gave lip-service to the poor, made it hard for those who used to help the poor (they can't afford it now). 

Do I think we will all pay for these actions? Well, yes in our everyday struggles with monetary issues and so forth. Will God smite the believers? No.

In some ways..America being irrelevant, in the battle yet to come, is a good thing. God doesn't need anyone to "help" Him get rid of the bad guys. He can do it in a blink. 

God's been here all along. Where have *our* hearts, minds and souls been? In some cases, standing in the government hand-out lines. In some cases, feeling like they knew better than God. In some cases, trying to stretch the truth of the Bible to encompass bad/wicked behavior and making it "okay" with God.

In my opinion..we need a good shaking.

Don't let me lead you astray..read if for yourselves.


----------



## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

copperkid3 said:


> John 14:6.
> 
> 
> ********************
> have some 'other' rational explanation?


Yes I actually do have another explanation. And I stand by my belief that God is not solely the domain of Christianity. It's one path, but not the only one.

BTW Jesus did not write the bible.


----------



## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Shygal said:


> Yes I actually do have another explanation. And I stand by my belief that God is not solely the domain of Christianity. It's one path, but not the only one.
> 
> BTW Jesus did not write the bible.


Wow, that's just so opposite of my beliefs..lol. 

I believe there is only 1 path to God..through faith and belief in His Son, Jesus.

Christianity (the word) comes from the word Christ. Christian=Christlike. I could be wrong..but I think that's how it goes.


----------



## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> Wow, that's just so opposite of my beliefs..lol.
> 
> I believe there is only 1 path to God..through faith and belief in His Son, Jesus.
> 
> Christianity (the word) comes from the word Christ. Christian=Christlike. I could be wrong..but I think that's how it goes.


 I think you entirely missed her point that the majority of the world does not believe as you do but they too believe in god. You believe your path to god is through Jesus which is fundamental to your Christian beliefs and that is good. Other religions have other paths to god and they feel just as strongly about their path as you do. No one is disputing that Christians believe their path to god is through Jesus.

I will mention something just for conversations sake since this has been a very civilized thread and interesting so far. I know lots of folks fear the rise of Islam in the US and in particular Sharia law and I have similar reservations but in almost every country where the religion is predominately Muslim (that isnt a closed state) I have run into Christians trying to convert folks to Christianity. We criticize most of those countries for restrictions on Christians proselytizing or attempting to impart Christian beliefs on the government or masses and yet I see the same thing in this country. Is that a double standard and if not why? (Please dont let this degenerate, I am not Christian bashing because almost all countries with a predominate religion do the same thing).


----------



## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Doesn't every religion try to get converts? In the Christian faith it may be referred to as witnessing..but it amounts to trying to get people to take a look at their faith.

Every religion has "witnessing" of one form or another going on..don't they?


----------



## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

salmonslayer said:


> I will mention something just for conversations sake since this has been a very civilized thread and interesting so far. I know lots of folks fear the rise of Islam in the US


I may be in the minority, but welcome the influx of Muslim folk. I don't see them as the stereotype of turbin wearing/eyepatch wearing/scimitar wielding/fence scaling bad men. I would much rather God send them to me to share the gospel than send me abroad to do so. I fully expect that their motive is to impose Sharia. However, their motive is not relevant to my responsibility.


----------



## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Danaus29 said:


> God hasn't forsaken America. America kicked him out.


What you sow is what you will reap. God is not mocked. And we are seeing the harvest of our actions. How awful will it be to be without hope and without God in this nation?


----------



## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

I don' think America is in that bad of shape, yet. Things can get a lot, lot worse. We may look back and wonder why we thought it was bad today... <just sayin'>


----------



## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

CrownRanch said:


> I may be in the minority, but welcome the influx of Muslim folk. I don't see them as the stereotype of turbin wearing/eyepatch wearing/scimitar wielding/fence scaling bad men. I would much rather God send them to me to share the gospel than send me abroad to do so. I fully expect that their motive is to impose Sharia. However, their motive is not relevant to my responsibility.


If they are preaching the Gospel,by all means they are welcome to come and preach.However,don't be fooled and let them slip Islam in as gospel or you gunna see some of this







And I gotta weak stomach.The "Texas Chainsaw Massacre"bout done me in.:nana:


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Melissa said:


> I don' think America is in that bad of shape, yet. Things can get a lot, lot worse. We may look back and wonder why we thought it was bad today... <just sayin'>


It's largely political. When a democrat is in office the republicans claim we are drifting away from God. Similarly, when a republican is in office democrats make the same claim. Republicans are more outspoken on the issue so we probably hear it a lot more during democratic regimes.

I suppose both are sincere in what they believe is going on. Democrats think the government is following the word of God when we offer Christ-like social programs that help the poor and sick. Republicans think the government is following the word of God when we discourage & prohibit behavior that the Bible seems to frown on.

Speaking for my own belief, I don't think God cares much about what's going on in our bedrooms, but I think he has a lot of concern about how we treat out follow man -- particularly the least of us.


----------



## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> Doesn't every religion try to get converts? In the Christian faith it may be referred to as witnessing..but it amounts to trying to get people to take a look at their faith.
> 
> Every religion has "witnessing" of one form or another going on..don't they?


 Well some do and some dont but I dont disagree with your basic sentiment. So your saying if other religions come to this country and witness you do not object? I am asking because lots of people have issue with Mosques opening up in their communities and Muslims trying to convert folks.



> I may be in the minority, but welcome the influx of Muslim folk. I don't see them as the stereotype of turbin wearing/eyepatch wearing/scimitar wielding/fence scaling bad men. I would much rather God send them to me to share the gospel than send me abroad to do so. I fully expect that their motive is to impose Sharia. However, their motive is not relevant to my responsibility.


 CrownRanch; that is a very interesting and different approach I had not thought of. No reason if they come to us we cant witness to them on our own turf so to speak. Good thought provoking post.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

salmonslayer said:


> So your saying if other religions come to this country and witness you do not object? I am asking because lots of people have issue with Mosques opening up in their communities and Muslims trying to convert folks.


Anyone who supports religious freedom should have no problem with that.


----------



## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

salmonslayer said:


> Some of you need to go back and read a little history. This country is safer for individuals than it was at the turn of the 20th century and we have a great country and a great way of life. Nothing that is happening now is new or just emerging and after having lived a good part of my adult life in the middle east I find that most folks no matter what their religion just want to live in peace and prosperity and have no ingrained enmity towards any particular religion. But just as we have had for over a thousand years we have religious radicals on all sides who seek to impart their view of god on others.
> 
> I find all this talk about how this country is waning and newly immoral to be rather simplistic and the product of watching too much TV and if we arent careful it will become a self fulfilling prophecy. Just at what point in our history was everything all peaches and cream? I must have missed that in Jr High history.
> 
> Those of you who fear other religious beliefs need to do some introspection and ask your self why your own beliefs are so fragile that they are threatened like that.


Amen!

Frankly I get a bit sick and tried of the drama, the breast beating and pulling of hair.

Sure, we have problems..we always have and always will, some of them change in character and some don't.

In more ways than not we have it better than any generation that came before us, but so many choose to only see the negative and wallow in it with abandon.


----------



## Dusky Beauty (Jan 4, 2012)

This blog was posted by a woman who was in the theatre during the Batman shooting in CO. Here is your window to how a Christian sees such a disaster. 



> SO YOU STILL THINK GOD IS A MERCIFUL GOD?!
> 
> July 22 â a note of explanation
> 
> ...


Source: So you STILL think God is a merciful God?! Â« A Miniature Clay Pot

I always find it interesting that the people who believe in God the least; shill the responsibility of all the bad stuff that happens to a diety figure... but when they believe in the authority of Man the most, they rarely cite human nature as the responsible party.


----------



## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

We live in one of the freest nations in the world! 

*We are so well fed we have an obesity epidemic. 
*We are wealthy and always rank high on "happiness meters." 
*People are free to worship in any church of their choice or none. 
*We can come to Christ and worship Him without fear of persecution (and if you think not being allowed to have a public prayer at a graduation even remotely counts as "persecution" you need to spend a whole lot more time in the Word!)

Friend of mine always says God knew she would be a weak follower. That's why He put her in such a blessed country. 
I tend to think she's right. 
Of all the nations on earth, the US is probably one of the easiest to be a follower of the Lord!


We ARE blessed.


----------



## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> Doesn't every religion try to get converts? In the Christian faith it may be referred to as witnessing..but it amounts to trying to get people to take a look at their faith.
> 
> Every religion has "witnessing" of one form or another going on..don't they?


No, actually there are a lot that don't. You will never see a pagan trying to convert anyone , for one example.

I don't have any problem with people believing that theirs is the only way, or people believing in Jesus , thats your path


----------



## Guest (Jul 24, 2012)

I am looking at this as a time where we can stop and think things over, with out material things getting in our way. A time to find our morals again.
With any luck that means we can rebuild our families. If that happens, maybe our country will build it's self as well.
But don't expect this country to look like it did before the financial crash. The only way that will happen is if we go back to our wicked ways, allowing greed and corruption to rule us.
God will bless us all again soon. We just have to look for the blessings.


----------



## Elffriend (Mar 2, 2003)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> Doesn't every religion try to get converts?


Judaism doesn't. Rabbis are supposed to discourage people from converting and turn them away the first couple of times they approach the Rabbi for instruction. When I converted, the rabbi sat me down on the third time I tried to get an appointment with him. He gave me a brief history of how the world has treated the Jews and explained to me that I didn't need to be a Jew in order to have a place in the world to come. He wanted to make darn sure I knew what I was getting into.


----------



## NamasteMama (Jul 24, 2009)

Im sure someone has already said this, but God did not forsake America, America forsook him. We have allowed him to be kicked out of our lives.


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> Doesn't every religion try to get converts? In the Christian faith it may be referred to as witnessing..but it amounts to trying to get people to take a look at their faith.
> 
> Every religion has "witnessing" of one form or another going on..don't they?


No. Christianity and Islam are the only 2 religions that believe they have a bounden duty to convert people to their religions - they kind of have a competition going on to see who can win the most converts to their 'cause'. It's kind of like a popularity contest and political game they have going on to see which politically religious faction can control the world. 

All other religions and spiritual belief systems do not have a 'cause' and do not try to convert people. Many of them will discourage people who they deem to be casual seekers. They only want seekers who are truly sincere about seeking God and enlightenment, not about seeking religion. Christianity and Islam are not the only paths to God, they are just the two most competitive religions.

.


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

An addition to my above post. 

Christianity and Islam are also the only 2 religions that will say all other religions or belief systems are wrong, and that their way is the only true way.

.


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> It is apparent that many people also don't understand our relationship with God.


Sorry but I don't understand how you can claim to have a "relationship" with an entity you cannot see, hear or feel. 

It seems pretty clear to me that any such "relationship" takes place strictly between the believer's ears ... i.e., is a fantasy. An adult version of an imaginary friend.

But if it gets you through the day, I guess I'm OK with it ... as long as your beliefs don't inspire you to do harm to me and mine. :shrug:


----------



## Dusky Beauty (Jan 4, 2012)

willow_girl said:


> Sorry but I don't understand how you can claim to have a "relationship" with an entity you cannot see, hear or feel.
> 
> It seems pretty clear to me that any such "relationship" takes place strictly between the believer's ears ... i.e., is a fantasy. An adult version of an imaginary friend.



I'm sure it sounds that way when you're on the outside looking in, but as for myself, those I am close to and respect, and probably a lot of other Christians with an active prayer life, it really IS shockingly a two way relationship. It's eerie sometimes, but literally EVERY time I have a need of some kind (a substantial one) I find it met. In fact I've had 3 stressors "solved" today that materialized pretty much from nowhere. This time they are mundane money crises that pretty much everyone has, but the solution popped up before I even had time to get really worked up. 

The long and short of it is, I pray and stuff happens, and I can't argue it away, so I stopped trying and just accept it, and pray more.


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

It's called "coincidence" and it happens all the time ... whether one prays or doesn't. :shrug:


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> with an entity you cannot see, hear or feel


I may not be able to see God, but I see Him in everything around me.

I do hear Him, all the time. Not words like you would speak, but He speaks to my heart & I hear Him.

I also feel Him with me all the time. Just as sure as I can feel the wind blowing or the heat of the sun.


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

willow_girl said:


> *Sorry but I don't understand how you can claim to have a "relationship" with an entity you cannot see, hear or feel.*
> 
> It seems pretty clear to me that any such "relationship" takes place strictly between the believer's ears ... i.e., is a fantasy. An adult version of an imaginary friend.
> 
> But if it gets you through the day, I guess I'm OK with it ... as long as your beliefs don't inspire you to do harm to me and mine. :shrug:


Willow, I think that your lack of understanding stems from the fact that you have not personally seen, heard or felt an entity. Therefore because you have not experienced it you can't acknowledge or accept for others what you think must be an imaginary entity for other people.

Just because you have not experienced that otherness does not mean that other people have not experienced it or that it's just a figment of their imaginations.

Spirit is a living thing, invisible, unheard and unfelt by many, but still experienced by many who recognize it for what it is when it does present itself to them. Maybe you don't need to experience it. Or maybe your rejection and unwillingness to accept the possibility of it is what keeps it away from you. There could be all kinds of reasons for why you haven't experienced it and perhaps you never will. However, your lack of personal experience with or encounter or relationship with a higher entity does not, cannot, negate that it is a fact, a reality, for many other people who do see, hear, feel and recognize it for what it is.

Remember what Hamlet said to Horatio: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Your philosophy is not the only philosophy. It is just one of many. What is the point of arguing it and trying to convince other people that they are disillusioned when it might be that you are the one who is truly disillusioned and cannot recognize that? I think you should let go and let live. Maybe this is just not your time on earth to experience the otherness and if it isn't don't try to begrudge those for whom it is their time. Your time will come in your own due time.

.


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Why do you love your cows so much? Have you ever thought about WHY you love your cows? You almost anthropomorphize (sp?) them. That is otherness. That is spirit. That is another entity.

.


----------



## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

naturelover said:


> Willow, I think that your lack of understanding stems from the fact that you have not personally seen, heard or felt an entity. Therefore because you have not experienced it you can't acknowledge or accept for others what you think must be an imaginary entity for other people.
> 
> Just because you have not experienced that otherness does not mean that other people have not experienced it or that it's just a figment of their imaginations.
> 
> ...


 Otherness??? Are we being PC here?
Call it what it is..
The "Holy Spirit?"
You are correct in other parts f what you said..
It could be WG isn't ready yet,, it could also be spiritual blindness.
The Holy Spirit calls US when we are acceptable to His calling..
It is also written,, The Holy Spirit will work on us for a set period of time,, if we regect him often enough,, after awhile,, He will leave us lone
to accept the consequences of out refusal.
GH


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Marshloft said:


> Otherness??? Are we being PC here?
> Call it what it is..
> The "Holy Spirit?"
> You are correct in other parts f what you said..


You don't know me well :grin: but I'm sure some others here could attest to the fact that I don't believe in political correctness, to me it's a foreign concept and I think it's silly. I was just being lazy and unimaginative about my wording for Willow's sake.

Yeah - Holy Spirit, God Consciousness, Christ Consciousness, Gaia Consciousness, Cosmic Consciousness, Otherness, Entity, Healing Spirit, Total Awareness, God Within, LOVE ..... whatever you want to call it. It's real, it's tangible, it's recognizable by those who are open and ready to tap into it and absolutely no religion or belief system has a monopoly on it.

And just so you know, I don't believe in religions of any kind, I think they're a waste of time and energy. God is within all of us in God's own way and fashion for each individual in their own due time and nobody really needs any kind of religion to attune to and listen to God in their heart and soul.

.


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Oh, and I think God favours Willow and she just doesn't recognize it yet. She is one of the most extremely hard-working, creative, artistic, intuitive, ingenious, compassionate and brilliant, sharp-minded and logical persons that I have ever encountered on internet. God keeps on dropping all sorts of opportunities in her lap that she calls "coincidence" but nevertheless takes advantage of to her benefit and she uses her analytical mind to interpret the messages that God sends to her without recognizing that God is speaking to her.

Just my opinion, but I do think Willow is highly blessed by God and just doesn't know it yet. God's joke is on her. :happy2:

.


----------



## airwolftruker (Jul 15, 2011)

I feel everyone in america has the right to worship any religion that moves them.....
I feel if i continue with this writing several forum members will say that im being "mainstream"
I guess i believe in god, i just don't believe in people. In these days its about everyone for themselves.
and religion divides people. I dont like that.
Look at the churches of today. There bigger, more expensive and they have no say in who attends
i live in the south, and in my younger years if you talked the talk, you had better walk the walk.
i have seen the leaders tell some "your not welcome here". Of course this was after repeted warnings.
i think the churches have soured the stomachs of alot of believers. Immortality, money grubbing, lies, distrust,


----------



## airwolftruker (Jul 15, 2011)

Nevada said:


> Or maybe he doesn't look at it that way. Maybe God is impressed with what a fabulous society humans have built for themselves.


I think you would have to ask god that question. God is supposed to be love.....
There is less love now then ever before.


----------



## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

airwolftruker said:


> I feel everyone in america has the right to worship any religion that moves them.....
> I feel if i continue with this writing several forum members will say that im being "mainstream"
> I guess i believe in god, i just don't believe in people. In these days its about everyone for themselves.
> and religion divides people. I dont like that.
> ...


 Whats sad is those on the outside put "church,,religeon,and God in the same context..
When in fact,, thats not the case at all.. 
Humans organize religeon,, not God,,, Humans open the doors to a building and call it a church..
I went to a church awhile back,, sat in the back row and listened...There was no sense of Gods spirit at all.
When it was over,, a lady came up to me and invited me to make sure I came back,, as they needed more folks,,, I told her outright,, If you will invite God,, I'll most certainly return.
She had nothing to say,, just looked at me funny.
GH


----------



## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

I don't believe in any god, and I try to be a good person every day. Perhaps if more people in the world stopped waiting for God to fix their issues, and instead reached out to help others fix their issues, the world would be a better place. America is definitely not seeing its best days. Too much anger, hatred, bickering, and concern with stupid crap like fighting over political garbage. If everyone spent like 5 minutes a day just trying to be a good person, and reaching out to someone else who needed help, this country would pick itself back up in no time.


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Willow, I think that your lack of understanding stems from the fact that you have not personally seen, heard or felt an entity.


Sorry, but you are wrong about that. I was a born-again Christian for awhile, many years ago. I had an imaginary friend, too. 

Over time, I ceased to be a believer. I think the final nail in the coffin was realizing that everything I saw as evidence of God's providence was more likely a coincidence stemming from being born in the modern era in perhaps the richest and freest country to ever grace the globe. Of course our prayers are answered most of the time! 

Under different circumstances, though ... not so much. Six million children starve to death every year in our world, and I suspect most of their parents pray fervently to find food enough to save them. The Nazi concentration camps were filled with people praying to the Judeo-Christian god for deliverance from evil. In most cases, that didn't happen.

I really think we're on our own here ... and I'm OK with that. 

But thank you for the kind words, Naturelover.


----------



## Work horse (Apr 7, 2012)

Question: Re: "America has turned its back on God" -- I understand that many Christians are upset about prayers being taken out of schools/public places, but would your god be any happier if non-believers were forced to pray? If church every Sunday was mandatory, would god be pleased? If non-believers were thrown in jail or executed, would god bless America again?


----------



## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

Marshloft said:


> It is also written,, The Holy Spirit will work on us for a set period of time,, if we regect him often enough,, after awhile,, He will leave us lone to accept the consequences of out refusal.
> GH


Where is that written?


----------



## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

NamasteMama said:


> Im sure someone has already said this, but God did not forsake America, America forsook him. We have allowed him to be kicked out of our lives.


We?! Speak for yourself! 


God's in _my_ life all day, every day! :clap:
('Course sometimes I screw up and others can't _see_ that fact :ashamed: ) The Lord of Creation isn't restricted from anywhere He wants to be by something as earthly and limited as legislation and school rules! lol I don't know what God you're following but _I_ serve a mighty God who knew me in my mother's womb. I guarantee He's not held back by something like the separation of church and state. 

The Lord has _never_ asked us to force everyone to worship, whether it be school prayer or required church attendance.
He wants our love freely!


----------



## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Work horse said:


> Question: Re: "America has turned its back on God" -- I understand that many Christians are upset about prayers being taken out of schools/public places, but would your god be any happier if non-believers were forced to pray? If church every Sunday was mandatory, would god be pleased? If non-believers were thrown in jail or executed, would god bless America again?


Excellent, and most relevant.

The answer is, no...HE would not.

In fact HE makes it fairly clear that He holds His own responsible for the ills they face.

2 Chronicles 7:14

_ If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land._


----------



## Big Dave (Feb 5, 2006)

Lots of freedom of choice on these pages. Some hackles being raised. I personally saw a fella praying to a rock once. Said he left his god at home so he thought this would be a good substitute. Man is a funny creature. Men do things all over the world to please themselves and give justification to their actions. I will share my understanding of GOD the Trinity. He created all. He has only been seen by a few. He will return someday. people are here and seen and they are dangerous. Yep things in history repete as we do not learn and keep going around the same mountain. No matter how you belive you still breath air. Do you see it? Go to a hardware store and buy all the things you want in a home. Nails, screws, lumber, shingles, wireing, plumbing ect,ect... Now have it all placed in a dump truck and go to a cliff. Back up to the edge and dump it off the edge. When it hits the bottom it should be a complete house. No? Maybe because we are man. Not the Creator. There are a lot of shef questions. Has God turned His back on America. I pray not. I am blessed to live in this great nation. To see all my friends and their opinions on this board where in some places we would be jailed or killed. GOD Bless America and God Bless you. Justmy .02


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

*Deuteronomy 31:6*
Be strong and courageous.Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the Lord your God goes with you;* He will never leave you nor forsake you.&#8221;*

*Hebrews 13:5*
Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
*&#8220;Never will I leave you;
**never will I forsake you.*

*2 Chronicles 7:14*
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.


No, God has not forsaken us.....

Romans 1 and 2.
That's where we are at right now....we, chose it.


----------



## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

Sonshine said:


> But a country is made up of people. Look at Sodom and Gohmorah (sp). Look at Babylon. Look at the world during Noah's days. Yes, God deals with people, but when enough people in a country turn their backs on God then God has removed his hand of protection from them.


If that's what you believe, that's what you believe.

Personally, I don't believe that God is protecting the US any more or less than he ever has, or any more or less than he is any other country. Realistically, when you take off the rose-colored glasses of nostalgia, the US is no more morally bankrupt than it ever has been. As a nation, we've conducted ourselves as pretty much every other nation, no better and no worse. We've had our good moments and our bad, just like the rest.

The New Covenant is for individuals, not for nations


----------



## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Dusky Beauty said:


> I'm sure it sounds that way when you're on the outside looking in, but as for myself, those I am close to and respect, and probably a lot of other Christians with an active prayer life, it really IS shockingly a two way relationship. It's eerie sometimes, but literally EVERY time I have a need of some kind (a substantial one) I find it met. In fact I've had 3 stressors "solved" today that materialized pretty much from nowhere. This time they are mundane money crises that pretty much everyone has, but the solution popped up before I even had time to get really worked up.
> 
> The long and short of it is, I pray and stuff happens, and I can't argue it away, so I stopped trying and just accept it, and pray more.


I've experienced much the same in a ongoing way (so far ), pretty spectacularly actually and I guarantee it had nothing to do with prayer.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Quote:
It is apparent that many people also don't understand our relationship with God.




willow_girl said:


> Sorry but I don't understand how you can claim to have a "relationship" with an entity you cannot see, hear or feel.
> 
> It seems pretty clear to me that any such "relationship" takes place strictly between the believer's ears ... i.e., is a fantasy. An adult version of an imaginary friend.
> 
> But if it gets you through the day, I guess I'm OK with it ... as long as your beliefs don't inspire you to do harm to me and mine. :shrug:


That's ok Willow.
I described the relationship but forgot that the first step to establishing it, is to believe the other person exists, lol.

I've never met you, seen you, seen your accomplishments or even heard your voice. I've just seen written words on a page, not even knowing who or what wrote them.
Yet I do believe you exist and you've given me no reason not to believe your words.
One of the tenderest examples I can think of is someone, I think it was Paul (?), came upon the monument to the Unknown God. It was remarkable that someone who didn't know, never heard, never saw or even knew His name.......acknowledged and revered Him nonetheless.

We will all get a chance to meet Him face to face one day, and in spite of the fire and brimstone that some may repeat ad nauseam, I think you'll find the meeting a good one.









Marshloft said:


> Otherness??? Are we being PC here?
> Call it what it is..
> The "Holy Spirit?"
> You are correct in other parts f what you said..
> ...





PaulNKS said:


> Where is that written?



Not sure myself.
Try Isaiah 63:10. Proverbs 29:1 or Acts 7:42.
Refers to God, rather than Holy Spirit, but the point is every father has his breaking point. 





Laura Zone 5 said:


> *Deuteronomy 31:6*
> Be strong and courageous.Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the Lord your God goes with you;* He will never leave you nor forsake you.â*
> 
> *Hebrews 13:5*
> ...


Never forget that little word at the beginning...........IF.


----------



## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

willow_girl said:


> Sorry, but you are wrong about that. I was a born-again Christian for awhile, many years ago. I had an imaginary friend, too.


Then you haven't known God because He definitely is not imaginary


----------



## Guest (Jul 25, 2012)

I don't beleive that God thinks we are a community and that we should be punished for what other people do. 
I don't beleive I am evil, but i see evil people in this country. What they do is not what I do. God will deal with each of us as he sees fit.
This country has been through much worse. No reason to think it won't make it again. No reason to give up on it.


----------



## The Tinker (Apr 5, 2011)

IF God has left America, it's the Christian's (my) fault. 2nd Chronicles 7:14 clearly states: "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."
The problem is we've put everything before God, even before we started kicking Him out our lives. We worship freedom and the "American way". It's about time for the Church to put down the constitution and pick up the Bible. America isn't (and never was) the greatest nation on Earth; the Church is (1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; ). Nor is the US the second greatest, Israel is. Is America third? I'm not sure. I tend to think so, but I'm sure that American Exceptionalism accounts for a good deal of that. Other people from other cultures _should_ feel that their nations are better than ours. 
So to answer the question, "Has God left America?", the answer is no. But we have left His path to follow our own, even the Church in America has forsaken the values of the Father for religion and self righteousness. 
Example: What did Christ tell us to do about people who hate us? Love them. What did He say to do to those who curse us? Pray for them. People who are different than us? Tell them about God's love, not attack them. We (Christians) have forgotten/forsaken our first love, and the nation suffers for it.
I really hope this isn't too "preachy", but it's a bit of a soapbox with me, and I've given it a lot of thought. If it upsets you, I apologize for my franknesss, but not the sentiment of my words.


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> We will all get a chance to meet Him face to face one day, and in spite of the fire and brimstone that some may repeat ad nauseam, I think you'll find the meeting a good one.


Ehh. All available evidence seems to point to the Dirt Nap. 

I'm OK with that. :shrug:


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

naturelover said:


> I don't think so. If God had forsaken Jesus on the cross then Jesus would not have been resurrected after he died on the cross.
> 
> Jesus only cried out "God, why have you forsaken me?" in a time of agony, fear, weakness and loss of faith because he wasn't expecting or prepared for crucifixion and an excruciating death. You can't get much more extreme agony than being nailed to a cross and hung up to die. But that did not mean God had actually forsaken him, only that Jesus didn't have his expectations of God met in his time of agony.
> 
> ...


Sorry, you are mistaken. Christ's ministry was a teaching ministry and He was teaching even as He hung on the cross. He was teaching those that knew the OT that this was Psalm 22 coming to pass. That psalm by the prophet David is foretelling the crucifixion in detail. Christ repeated the exact opening words for a reason and His last words "It is finished" is the same as Psalm 22 ending with "This He hath done".


----------



## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Tiempo said:


> I've experienced much the same in a ongoing way (so far ), pretty spectacularly actually and I guarantee it had nothing to do with prayer.


 When it rains,, it doesn't just rain on the farmer that prays,,, It rains all around him.
Just for the record ,, we could you some rain right now..


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

There is a book out titled "The Harbinger". It details the parallels between the curse on Israel in Isaiah 9 and 911. They responded back then exactly the way we did, even using the exact words in their defiance of God. God allowed an enemy to attack them as a warning. They ignored the warning and said, "The bricks are fallen, but we will rebuild with hewn stone. The sycamores are cut down but we will replant with cedars". Many of our leaders used that "We will rebuild" line after 911. A stone was cut from a mountain to lay in the corner of the foundation of the new tower. A 60 foot Sycamore tree standing off one corner of the towers was felled by a single beam in the collapse. It was replaced by a donated cedar tree. There's too much more in common to write here but in the end, Israel was destroyed for their defiance.


----------



## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

poppy said:


> There is a book out titled "The Harbinger". It details the parallels between the curse on Israel in Isaiah 9 and 911. They responded back then exactly the way we did, even using the exact words in their defiance of God. God allowed an enemy to attack them as a warning. They ignored the warning and said, "The bricks are fallen, but we will rebuild with hewn stone. The sycamores are cut down but we will replant with cedars". Many of our leaders used that "We will rebuild" line after 911. A stone was cut from a mountain to lay in the corner of the foundation of the new tower. A 60 foot Sycamore tree standing off one corner of the towers was felled by a single beam in the collapse. It was replaced by a donated cedar tree. There's too much more in common to write here but in the end, Israel was destroyed for their defiance.


You can find parallels to anything and everything if you look hard enough and long enough.


----------



## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Shygal said:


> Then you haven't known God because He definitely is not imaginary


 That statement is definitely debatable


----------



## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

Marshloft said:


> It is also written,, The Holy Spirit will work on us for a set period of time,, if we regect him often enough,, after awhile,, He will leave us lone to accept the consequences of out refusal.
> GH


When asked where that was found, I was sent a PM. I guess GH doesn't know either?



farmrbrown said:


> Not sure myself.
> Try Isaiah 63:10. Proverbs 29:1 or Acts 7:42.
> Refers to God, rather than Holy Spirit, but the point is every father has his breaking point.


Those were good points, but still not the same "passage" the poster quoted. I've been a Christian all my life and never saw that passage (not saying it isn't there.) 

I would still like to know if someone can point it out.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

> Refers to God, rather than Holy Spirit, but the point is* every father has his breaking point.*


I think Romans 1 + 2 proves this point.....


----------



## The Tinker (Apr 5, 2011)

2nd Thessalonians 2 (verse 7 in specific), and Gen. 6:3, though one must use caution when using the Old Testament for verification/argument. That era ended with fulfillment of the law and the final sacrifice, and gave way to the age of Grace.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

The Tinker said:


> 2nd Thessalonians 2 (verse 7 in specific), and Gen. 6:3, though one must use caution when using the Old Testament for verification/argument. That era ended with fulfillment of the law and the final sacrifice, and gave way to the age of Grace.


In some things, such as blood sacrifices, you are correct. However, the OT is of great importance. The NT says the things written there were examples of what would befall us in the end times.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Shygal said:


> Then you haven't known God because He definitely is not imaginary


That's an interesting point though. It seems that God reveals himself to some people in an undeniable way, yet doesn't to others. Is that because some people are more willing to accept the intangible, or is it because God doesn't want to reveal himself to some people? Perhaps there is a purpose in some people remaining agnostic, since they might be able to make contributions to society as agnostics that they might not be able to make as Christians.

But if it's God's plan to deliberately not reveal himself to some people, why would he punish them eternally for being non-believers? After all, it's not their fault that God decided to not reveal himself to them, and they could even be doing God's work as agnostics.


----------



## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Marshloft said:


> Whats sad is those on the outside put "church,,religeon,and God in the same context..
> When in fact,, thats not the case at all..
> Humans organize religeon,, not God,,, Humans open the doors to a building and call it a church..
> I went to a church awhile back,, sat in the back row and listened...There was no sense of Gods spirit at all.
> ...


I read this several times to make sure I understood what you were saying. I am tired today so I hope this makes sense. I think sometimes we need to remember that IMO the church, in the sense we are talking about, is where we go to worship with other believers. Personally I feel better after attending services. I also feel that God would not mind if we stayed in our home and studied the bible as we followed his teachings. It's not about where you go to worship him it is just that you do worship him.

I really do like what you said to the lady who invited you back. There have been many churches we attended in the past that seemed to have forgotten God and his commandments. Church should feel right. I believe if you don't feel a strong connection with God when you are there maybe you are in the wrong place. If it is about being a part of high society look for another. 

I love our church family and hope that every person there finds that inner piece that comes with faith in the Lord.


----------



## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

fordy said:


> ...................Because in America religious freedom translates into political power and control of our elective bodies ! The Muslims , should they gain enough voting strength can elect and effectively control and establish a Muslim dominated legal , religious , and legislative society ! And , as we know from current and previous historical evidence that , THEY , doNOT , tolerate freedom of religion as we do under our Constitution !!!!! There are small numbers of different faith(s) existing in Muslim dominated countries , but , large numbers of any competiting religious belief will not be allowed too exist ! Muslims can't even CoExist with each other when there are significant numbers of the two major branches of Islam present in a single country ! They expend lots of their time murdering and blowing each other , Up ; the rest of the time they're focused on extinguishing the Jews from their homeland ! So much for Islam the religion of tolerance and love !
> ...................GOD hasn't given up on America ! Besides we have JESUS , the big shock absorber too absorb all our sinful ways and chastise US back into a lifestyle that is pleasing in the eyes of the ALMIGHTY ! , fordy:happy:


But that's the thing. The laws of our land allow for the majority to rule. We've created the Constitution in such a way that if we end up with more Islamic believers than Christians, they will have their way. So either we allow for religious freedom or we designate one. That's what it's coming down to -- period. 



Molly Mckee said:


> There were Jewish people in the colonies as well.
> 
> The god of the Muslims is very different from God. We don't all worship the same god. If you read the holy writings of religions other than Christianity, you will see a great difference. Our tolerance and kindness has allowed some of the radicals to think it is perfectly reasonable to expect our country to allow sharia law. They don't allow freedom in the countries they left and they want to deny it here.


Irrelevant. If the majority rules and Christianity becomes the minority, that's were we're going. Our Constitution says so. 

My point is that the same order of protection we once valued is causing the reverse effects. Where does God stand in all of this? Of course on the side of love, justice, freedom and free from sin. The thing is, all religions seem to have a totally different idea of what sin is. That is were our breaking point will be in this country.

How can we say we want freedom of religion yet only specifiy which religions and how many of those people from those religions are allowed to practice them and vote in this country?

I do believe as long as one godly person remains, God will be in their mist. It doesn't matter how it all plays out. Scripture tells us that nothing happens and no political leader is not there that God doesn't allow to be there (for whatever reason). Besides my Christian brothers and sisters, we've read the end of the book. We know it ends badly for us but yet we ultimately end up with the victory! It's should come as no big surprise that things are going as they are going. 

Even though the US is not mentioned in the end times, it's a global thing; so of course it's going to happen here. Despite it all, although America has a country may not have God's blessings, the faithful Christians will. So what else do we need? We just 'want' more -- to be comfortable. Maybe it's time for a little less comfort, eh?


----------



## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

Nevada said:


> That's an interesting point though. It seems that God reveals himself to some people in an undeniable way, yet doesn't to others. Is that because some people are more willing to accept the intangible, or is it because God doesn't want to reveal himself to some people? Perhaps there is a purpose in some people remaining agnostic, since they might be able to make contributions to society as agnostics that they might not be able to make as Christians.
> 
> But if it's God's plan to deliberately not reveal himself to some people, why would he punish them eternally for being non-believers? After all, it's not their fault that God decided to not reveal himself to them, and they could even be doing God's work as agnostics.


.................He doesn't force anyone too believe , rather he wants us too seek him out of our own free will . I believe he teaches us by allowing us too contrast our ability to endure and overcome the pain and suffering of living without his guidance , and how much better we are able to live our lives once we seek his direction and council . But , you will only beable to compare the two different sets of circumstances , once you have chosen his way and allowed him to become your teacher and protector ! You can always fall back into your old habits should you choose to do so . , fordy


----------



## prairiedog (Jan 18, 2007)

There is no God people get real. You are arguing over imaginary things. If you must debate do it over something real.


----------



## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Mickey said:


> And yet the children ARE still starving are they not? Is it because they're not before our very eyes, but a world away that we don't feel responsible for feeding them? Just as those that support a woman's right to murder her child thru abortion don't SEE what that means.
> It is indeed within our power, each and every one of us, (and not just Americans, but the entire world) to put a stop to hunger AND the senseless slaughter of innocent babies. "You did it to me."


God killed the first born child of everyone one in Egypt who followed the pharaoh, from first born adults to tiny, first born infants. So don't tell me e has an issue killing babies. In Sodom and Gamora (Sp?) you are telling that outside of Lot's family, there wasn't a single six month old baby crawling around a house, a single infant in a crib, neither of which should have been held accountable for their parent's actions. In the days of Noah, he drowned everybody but Noah's family. How many mothers tread water with their terrified two year old clinging to them until her strength gave out and they both drowned.

According to the bible, he has had no issue with killing babies.

Also, if an infant dies unexpectedly now days, it was part of God's plan and he works in mysterious ways. If an infant somehow survives a fire or car wreck, God sheltered and saved the infant and bless him for doing so. If a woman loses a baby, it is part of God's plan and he works in mysterious ways and just wanted his little angel back. 

But if a baby is aborted, God had nothing to do with it and it is against him. If God wanted that baby to survive, he would have intervened. Maybe, God just works in mysterious ways and he wanted his little angel back.


You can't have it both ways. Either the bible is God's word and true, which means he has done some extremely awful and heinous things, including killing innocent children, or it isn't true in which case there is no basis for the arguments made.


----------



## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

prairiedog said:


> There is no God people get real. You are arguing over imaginary things. If you must debate do it over something real.



..............I suppose you could postulate the same conclusion about the Wind , but I wouldn't make mention of that idea on your next airline trip ! , fordy


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

fordy said:


> ..............I suppose you could postulate the same conclusion about the Wind , but I wouldn't make mention of that idea on your next airline trip ! , fordy


I see no comparison between wind & religion. Wind can be measured, it's behavior is reliably reproducible, and it follows the laws of physics. Religion has none of those properties.


----------



## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

fordy said:


> .....................Muslim domination of America won't even come close to becoming a reality because we will have long since fought another religious civil war over this issue ! We , will , NEVER allow a Murderous bunch of Turban Toaters to take over the governing institutions of this country ! Camels will never replace Quarter horses , atleast in Tx ! , fordy:grumble:


 Yea, those murderous turban toaters arent like Christians...they are so intolerant.


----------



## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

PaulNKS said:


> When asked where that was found, I was sent a PM. I guess GH doesn't know either?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gen. 6:3 "And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man,"

Romans 1:24 "God gave them up to do unclean and sinful things from the lust (desires) of their own hearts"

When God gives up on a person,the Holy Spirit stops convicting that persons heart.Its to late for that person to be saved.Only by God's mercy to give them one more chance,will they have another opportunity for the Holy Spirit to convict their heart.

In my opinion,many times we ask ourselves how people can do such evil things like the recent Colo shootings,I believe when the Holy Spirit leaves,and no longer convicts people,evil has no bounds and nothing is beyond their evil doings.


----------



## bluesky (Mar 22, 2008)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> God killed the first born child of everyone one in Egypt who followed the pharaoh, from first born adults to tiny, first born infants. So don't tell me e has an issue killing babies. In Sodom and Gamora (Sp?) you are telling that outside of Lot's family, there wasn't a single six month old baby crawling around a house, a single infant in a crib, neither of which should have been held accountable for their parent's actions. In the days of Noah, he drowned everybody but Noah's family. How many mothers tread water with their terrified two year old clinging to them until her strength gave out and they both drowned.
> 
> According to the bible, he has had no issue with killing babies.
> 
> ...


Well said!!! :thumb:


----------



## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

fordy said:


> .....................Muslim domination of America won't even come close to becoming a reality because we will have long since fought another religious civil war over this issue ! We , will , NEVER allow a Murderous bunch of Turban Toaters to take over the governing institutions of this country ! Camels will never replace Quarter horses , atleast in Tx ! , fordy:grumble:


One day America will worship the religion of the Anti Christ,I believe Islam.. If the Christians have not been "Raptured"out first(my belief),if they want to remain Christians, they will be beheaded for not worshiping the Antichrist or his religion.


Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


----------



## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

prairiedog said:


> There is no God people get real. You are arguing over imaginary things. If you must debate do it over something real.


This debate is real. If a person believes in God it's real _to them_ and is reason for a debate. In your case, why would you even bother to read the thread if it's so 'unreal' other than to just criticize others? :smack


----------



## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

EDDIE BUCK said:


> One day America will worship the religion of the Anti Christ,I believe Islam.. If the Christians have not been "Raptured"out first(my belief),if they want to remain Christians, they will be beheaded for not worshiping the Antichrist or his religion.
> 
> 
> Revelation 20:4
> And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Exactly! Whether Islam or some other religion we have yet to see until the anti-christ comes into power, it's like I said.... 

We know it's coming and no civil war will stop it. Why? Because it says so in scripture.

But even during that time, God is not going to forsake any Christian still left on earth; no matter what country he/she lives in. Therefore, God's presence and blessings remain in that country.


----------



## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Karen said:


> Exactly! Whether Islam or some other religion we have yet to see until the anti-christ comes into power, it's like I said....
> 
> We know it's coming and no civil war will stop it. Why? Because it says so in scripture.
> 
> But even during that time, God is not going to forsake any Christian still left on earth; no matter what country he/she lives in. *Therefore, God's presence and blessings remain in that country.*




Agreed, but God's Blessings may not remain *ON* that country.


----------



## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Nevada said:


> That's an interesting point though. It seems that God reveals himself to some people in an undeniable way, yet doesn't to others. Is that because some people are more willing to accept the intangible, or is it because God doesn't want to reveal himself to some people? Perhaps there is a purpose in some people remaining agnostic, since they might be able to make contributions to society as agnostics that they might not be able to make as Christians.
> 
> But if it's God's plan to deliberately not reveal himself to some people, why would he punish them eternally for being non-believers? After all, it's not their fault that God decided to not reveal himself to them, and they could even be doing God's work as agnostics.


See, there's the thing, I don't think people will be punished eternally for being non believers. Its the life you live that matters, not which building you go into and worship, or not worship.

I think you are stuck with the notion that someone has to belong to some religion/church, in order to believe in God, and I don't believe that.


----------



## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Tiempo said:


> That statement is definitely debatable


You know me, I've been here since 2003, have I ever been known to follow simple flights of fancy?


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

poppy said:


> Sorry, you are mistaken. Christ's ministry was a teaching ministry and He was teaching even as He hung on the cross. He was teaching those that knew the OT that this was Psalm 22 coming to pass. That psalm by the prophet David is foretelling the crucifixion in detail. Christ repeated the exact opening words for a reason and His last words "It is finished" is the same as Psalm 22 ending with "This He hath done".


Well, I know about "the Seven Words" of Jesus on the cross and I know the various interpretations of the gospels say that he was allegedly teaching from the cross, and I guess with you being a Christian you are required to believe that. But I'm not and I don't. I believe after 9 hours or so of agonizing torment he was desperate and recognized he was about to expire without having received the 7th hour miracle from God that he was expecting. Ideally, if the miracle he was expecting was going to happen it should have happened at the 7th hour. But I don't believe he was forsaken by God, things just happened differently from what he was expecting.

.


----------



## Work horse (Apr 7, 2012)

EDDIE BUCK said:


> One day America will worship the religion of the Anti Christ,I believe Islam.. If the Christians have not been "Raptured"out first(my belief),if they want to remain Christians, they will be beheaded for not worshiping the Antichrist or his religion.
> 
> 
> Revelation 20:4
> And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



Isn't it a scary thought, to be forced to worship a god you don't believe in?


That's why we need to keep Christian God, and any other gods, out of public schools/places/government. No one should be forced to worship.


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I would add that opening the door to the Christian god now, simply because Christians are a majority, also opens the door to another god later, if another religion were to become the majority.

I don't think we want to go there.


----------



## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

Everyone is going to die, some will die young, some old, some in-between. Some deaths will be easy, some will be hard. Some people will linger, others go quickly. Death always causes distress to those left behind. In the big scheme of things though- to the believer, death is not the end. Maybe God allows some to die because it is the kindest thing in that situation. If you believe in eternity, then dying is just one step along the road we are walking. God is not evil or unjust because people die... Most of us want to live a long and useful life because we feel like there is a purpose for us here. However this life is not all there is, dying is not the end...


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Work horse said:


> Isn't it a scary thought, to be forced to worship a god you don't believe in?
> 
> 
> That's why we need to keep Christian God, and any other gods, out of public schools/places/government. No one should be forced to worship.


AMEN.
I am a Believer and Follower of Jesus Christ.......
But if ______ doesn't want to be, then fine. 
That is his/her choice.

I don't want to live in a place that forces them to worship God, any more than I want to live in a place that forces me to worship their god.

That's why Target said NO to the Salvation Army ringing bells in front of their stores years ago.......
They said NO to EVERYONE.
Not just 'christian' folks, but EVERYONE.
No preferential treatment to anyone.
NO to EVERYONE.


----------



## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

Work horse said:


> Isn't it a scary thought, to be forced to worship a god you don't believe in?
> 
> 
> That's why we need to keep Christian God, and any other gods, out of public schools/places/government. No one should be forced to worship.


 Where am I saying we should be forced to worship any God?I'm not saying that.I am saying the Bible says whoever is on earth when the Antichrist reigns will worship him and his image and receive his mark or be beheaded if they refuse.

*I don't think anyone should be made to worship any God*

*
Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.*


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

I am really surprised that anyone would think that God would support any world government.

Jesus said "My kingdom is no part of this world" (John 17:36)

Revelation 16:14 says "They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty."
This means all the kings or rulers. And they will be fighting God

Dan 2:44 says " âAnd in the days of those kings (meaning the rulers of this day, today, right now) the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;

Why would anyone think God would look at any particular earthly Government?


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> God killed the first born child of everyone one in Egypt who followed the pharaoh, from first born adults to tiny, first born infants. So don't tell me e has an issue killing babies. In Sodom and Gamora (Sp?) you are telling that outside of Lot's family, there wasn't a single six month old baby crawling around a house, a single infant in a crib, neither of which should have been held accountable for their parent's actions. In the days of Noah, he drowned everybody but Noah's family. How many mothers tread water with their terrified two year old clinging to them until her strength gave out and they both drowned.
> 
> According to the bible, he has had no issue with killing babies.
> 
> ...


Whats your point? It is a well known fact that in most cases Children grow up just like their parents due to the education they receive from the parent.IF the parent is wicked so will be the child. One does not think that God can look into the future to see the outcome of the Child? And no matter God can resurrect if needed. We have free will. Serve God or not.

(Joshua 24:15) Now if it is bad in YOUR eyes to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom YOU will serve, whether the gods that YOUR forefathers who were on the other side of the River served or the gods of the Am&#8242;orÂ·ites in whose land YOU are dwelling. But as for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah.&#8221;

But it is imperative to think of this;

(2 Thessalonians 1:6-8) This takes into account that it is righteous on God&#8217;s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, 7-but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8-in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.

Where do you want to be?


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

Nevada said:


> That's an interesting point though. It seems that God reveals himself to some people in an undeniable way, yet doesn't to others. Is that because some people are more willing to accept the intangible, or is it because God doesn't want to reveal himself to some people? Perhaps there is a purpose in some people remaining agnostic, since they might be able to make contributions to society as agnostics that they might not be able to make as Christians.
> 
> But if it's God's plan to deliberately not reveal himself to some people, why would he punish them eternally for being non-believers? After all, it's not their fault that God decided to not reveal himself to them, and they could even be doing God's work as agnostics.


What do you mean "why would he punish them eternally for being non-believers?" That is NOT a Bible teaching! 

-(Ezekiel 18:4) Look! All the soulsâto me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the sonâto me they belong. The soul that is sinningâit itself will die.
(Ezekiel 18:20) The soul that is sinningâit itself will die. A son himself will bear nothing because of the error of the father, and a father himself will bear nothing because of the error of the son. Upon his own self the very righteousness of the righteous one will come to be, and upon his own self the very wickedness of a wicked one will come to be.

No eternal torment, No Hell. we just die -- like a candle flame blown out


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

Melissa said:


> Everyone is going to die,


Not true. The Bible says at REv 7:14

-So right away I said to him: âMy lord, you are the one that knows.â And he said to me: âThese are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, .....


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

Melissa said:


> dying is not the end...


For some, however for the most of us;

(Psalm 37:29) The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.
(Revelation 21:3, 4) With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: &#8220;Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4-And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.&#8221;
(Matthew 5:5) &#8220;Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.

We will live on a perfect earth, just as God purposed - Genesis 1:28-31


----------



## Work horse (Apr 7, 2012)

EDDIE BUCK said:


> Where am I saying we should be forced to worship any God?I'm not saying that.I am saying the Bible says whoever is on earth when the Antichrist reigns will worship him and his image and receive his mark or be beheaded if they refuse.
> 
> *I don't think anyone should be made to worship any God*
> 
> ...


I didn't say you said that. I just pointed out it's a scary thought to have to worship when you don't want to. I was hoping that might get through to some people who complain about prayer being taken out of schools and public places.


----------



## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

Work horse said:


> I didn't say you said that. I just pointed out it's a scary thought to have to worship when you don't want to. I was hoping that might get through to some people who complain about prayer being taken out of schools and public places.


Recon I misunderstood then.sorry:bow: And I agree:buds:


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

poppy said:


> There is a book out titled "The Harbinger". It details the parallels between the curse on Israel in Isaiah 9 and 911. They responded back then exactly the way we did, even using the exact words in their defiance of God. God allowed an enemy to attack them as a warning. They ignored the warning and said, "The bricks are fallen, but we will rebuild with hewn stone. The sycamores are cut down but we will replant with cedars". Many of our leaders used that "We will rebuild" line after 911. A stone was cut from a mountain to lay in the corner of the foundation of the new tower. A 60 foot Sycamore tree standing off one corner of the towers was felled by a single beam in the collapse. It was replaced by a donated cedar tree. There's too much more in common to write here but in the end, Israel was destroyed for their defiance.



That was an interesting book, but like most warnings, it will be ignored by most.



PaulNKS said:


> When asked where that was found, I was sent a PM. I guess GH doesn't know either?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I never really found it either, that's why it's good to ask for the specific reference. Same with secular laws, show me the statute #. I get emails all the time from people telling me what so-and-so law says, only to find the law, read it for myself and find out different. That's why it says study to show thyself approved. (2 Timothy 2:15)

I found the Gen 6:3 reference in several places, but dismissed it after reading the context. That was simply referring to the lifespan of a man being limited to 120 years, after that, the spirit leaves him. That's not the same sentiment as the poster was giving.
I think it's likely as we've seen that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit never forsakes US, rather vice versa.



Nevada said:


> That's an interesting point though. It seems that God reveals himself to some people in an undeniable way, yet doesn't to others. Is that because some people are more willing to accept the intangible, or is it because God doesn't want to reveal himself to some people? Perhaps there is a purpose in some people remaining agnostic, since they might be able to make contributions to society as agnostics that they might not be able to make as Christians.
> 
> But if it's God's plan to deliberately not reveal himself to some people, why would he punish them eternally for being non-believers? After all, it's not their fault that God decided to not reveal himself to them, and they could even be doing God's work as agnostics.


You are correct in the first part. God indeed will put blinders on some (St. John 12:40 in reference to the prophet Isaiah) and in some cases it is for their own good, as strange as that may seem, as you reasoned yourself at the end of your first paragraph.
In your 2nd paragraph though, you have fallen into the misinformation that many churches still believe to this day, mainly because they don't follow the instructions in 2 Timothy - to study and rightly divide the Word of God.
This isn't the time or place to discuss this in depth, but find out what Peter was talking about the 3 heaven and earth ages. This is critical to know and will give you more understanding as to why, how and when God decides His judgement. Anyone who tells you that it is decided at your death and not at the end of the Millennium has never read Ezekiel or Revelation nor can tell you the purpose of that 1,000 years. When you study that, you will feel much better about the fairness of God. He is much more than fair.:goodjob: 




Oat Bucket Farm said:


> God killed the first born child of everyone one in Egypt who followed the pharaoh, from first born adults to tiny, first born infants. So don't tell me e has an issue killing babies. In Sodom and Gamora (Sp?) you are telling that outside of Lot's family, there wasn't a single six month old baby crawling around a house, a single infant in a crib, neither of which should have been held accountable for their parent's actions. In the days of Noah, he drowned everybody but Noah's family. How many mothers tread water with their terrified two year old clinging to them until her strength gave out and they both drowned.
> 
> According to the bible, he has had no issue with killing babies.
> 
> ...


This will probably fall on deaf ears, so I'll be brief.
I used to feel the same way before I learned what I just told Nevada.
God did everything that was written and it is true. However, what you and I DON'T know (and what God DOES know) is whether or not those "innocents" that were killed were innocent or not. We also don't know whether they were being punished for deeds done in the first earth age (we are currently in the 2nd) or whether they were mercifully being spared something by being taken home with the Father. To claim that we know better than God is something I'm not willing to do, although I too, once thought that way.
All of these things are in the Bible if you are willing to study. I(f you have questions, He has the answers.


----------



## Centralilrookie (Jul 12, 2012)

I think that society has lowered the standards that we hold ourselves,church's,politician's,school's,and business's to. This is our downfall.


----------



## Work horse (Apr 7, 2012)

Centralilrookie said:


> I think that society has lowered the standards that we hold ourselves,church's,politician's,school's,and business's to. This is our downfall.


Please explain where you feel society has lowered standards? 

Please also explain how this relates to whether or not God has forsaken America. (Or is the answer, "No, lower standards cause all the problems"?) 

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Zephaniah said:


> Whats your point? It is a well known fact that in most cases Children grow up just like their parents due to the education they receive from the parent.IF the parent is wicked so will be the child. One does not think that God can look into the future to see the outcome of the Child? And no matter God can resurrect if needed. We have free will. Serve God or not.
> 
> (Joshua 24:15) Now if it is bad in YOUR eyes to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom YOU will serve, whether the gods that YOUR forefathers who were on the other side of the River served or the gods of the Am&#8242;orÂ·ites in whose land YOU are dwelling. But as for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah.â
> 
> ...


My point is, it is either all part of God's plan or it isn't. You can't say that a baby dying in a car wreck is part of God's plan and a baby be aborted isn't. If everything is part of his plan, then everything is preordained and there really isn't free choice and everyone is how they are because that is how god made them and everything that is done is part of his plan. Either there is free choice or it's planned, one of the two. If it isn't planned, then a baby dying in a wreck is a horrible tragedy, nothing more. No supreme being took the baby into his arms for some greater purpose or plan. If it is all planned, then the woman who aborts her baby was led to do so because it is part of God's plan. 

BTW, I am not for abortion used as birth control and I'm not for late term abortion. But what I am for has no basis on another's choice.


----------



## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

There's one thing no one on here has addressed. 

You ask if God has forsaken America. That would imply that He had blessed her and that He was protecting her.

Where is it written that God had blessed or protected America? I'm thinking He never blessed her to begin with.


----------



## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

If there is a God, I don't think he blesses any country. Since every country is contributing to the pollution and ruin of what he created, I can't see him being to happy with anyone.


----------



## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Zephaniah said:


> What do you mean "why would he punish them eternally for being non-believers?" That is NOT a Bible teaching!
> 
> -(Ezekiel 18:4) Look! All the soulsâto me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the sonâto me they belong. The soul that is sinningâit itself will die.
> (Ezekiel 18:20) The soul that is sinningâit itself will die. A son himself will bear nothing because of the error of the father, and a father himself will bear nothing because of the error of the son. Upon his own self the very righteousness of the righteous one will come to be, and upon his own self the very wickedness of a wicked one will come to be.
> ...


I don't understand your reasoning because the bible is full of references to hell and eternal torment.


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

Shygal said:


> I don't understand your reasoning because the bible is full of references to hell and eternal torment.


If you could point one out I would be glad to explain it has nothing to do with Hell or eternal torment.

One thing we must do is consider the word "HELL" itself

The Hebrew word she&#700;ohl&#8242; occurs 65 times in the Masoretic text. In the King James Version, it is translated 31 times as &#8220;hell,&#8221; 31 times as &#8220;grave,&#8221; and 3 times as &#8220;pit.&#8221; The Catholic Douay Version rendered the word 63 times as &#8220;hell,&#8221; once as &#8220;pit,&#8221; and once as &#8220;death.&#8221; In addition, at Isaiah 7:11 the Hebrew text originally read she&#700;ohl&#8242;, and it was rendered as &#8220;Hades&#8221; in the ancient Greek versions of Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion, and as &#8220;hell&#8221; in the Douay Version.
There is no English word that conveys the precise sense of the Hebrew word she&#700;ohl&#8242;. Commenting on the use of the word &#8220;hell&#8221; in Bible translation, Collier&#8217;s Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says: &#8220;Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word &#8216;hell,&#8217; as understood today, is not a happy translation.&#8221; More recent versions transliterate the word into English as &#8220;Sheol.&#8221;

Sheol the original Hebrew word only means Mankind's Common grave. Lets start with that premise, please. With the verses at Ezekiel showing the soul dies, there cannot be torment. Besides the fact that God is "just" (Psalm 33:5) , he will not torture someone a lifetime for seventy or so years of "sin".

Another point to reason on is

(Jeremiah 7:31) And they have built the high places of To&#8242;pheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hin&#8242;nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.&#8217;

God thinks it is an abhorrent thing to burn a person alive.
L


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> My point is, it is either all part of God's plan or it isn't. You can't say that a baby dying in a car wreck is part of God's plan and a baby be aborted isn't. If everything is part of his plan, then everything is preordained and there really isn't free choice and everyone is how they are because that is how god made them and everything that is done is part of his plan. Either there is free choice or it's planned, one of the two. If it isn't planned, then a baby dying in a wreck is a horrible tragedy, nothing more. No supreme being took the baby into his arms for some greater purpose or plan. If it is all planned, then the woman who aborts her baby was led to do so because it is part of God's plan.
> 
> BTW, I am not for abortion used as birth control and I'm not for late term abortion. But what I am for has no basis on another's choice.


At this current point in time, God is NOT causing Babies or anyone for that fact to die. two scriptures come to mind;

(Ecclesiastes 9:11) I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the wise also have the food, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor; because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all.

Time and unforeseen occurrence are the events that cause all our deaths at this point in time.

The other point is God is allowing Satan to be in control for a period of time;

(1 John 5:19) We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one.

The wicked one being Satan. That is why there is crime, death and all the other injustice in the world, not because of God. 

Jesus said the same thing at (John 14:30) I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me,

However, soon all this will be done away with. Including abortion and car wrecks.

(Psalm 37:10, 11) And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. 11-But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

Again I iterate Daniel 2:44 and its prophecy


----------



## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Considering the atrocities committed by human kind over the entirety of its history, if it is because God gave control to Satan, then he basically made humans, handed the reins to Satan and walked away.


----------



## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Zephaniah said:


> If you could point one out I would be glad to explain it has nothing to do with Hell or eternal torment.
> 
> 
> L


I am guessing by your name and quoting the old testament that you are of the Jewish faith. I know the fiery hell of christianity is not a belief of the Jewish faith, so you are correct 

The new testament however, is full of fire and eternal torment.


----------



## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Zephaniah said:


> I am really surprised that anyone would think that God would support any world government.
> 
> Jesus said "My kingdom is no part of this world" (John 17:36)
> 
> ...


No government exists that God does not permit - Dan 2:21, 4:17, Deuteronomy 10:14; Psalms 135:6

God fixed the boundaries for the peoples of the world (Deuteronomy 32:8). 

He can make a nation large or small (Obadiah 2). 

In the affairs of the world, and its rulers, the Lord puts down one leader and lifts up another (1 Samuel 16:1; Psalms 75:7). 

He uses heathen nations to accomplish the disciplining of His disobedient people (Isaiah 5:26; Amos 3:9-11; 6:14; Habakkuk 1:12). 

So far as it has suited His purposes, He has allowed nations to go their own way (Acts 14:16). 

Behind the strange, and sometimes unexpectedly generous actions of unbelieving rulers towards God's people at various times is the working of God in their hearts without their knowledge (Ezra 1:1). Examples are Tiglath-pileser (Isaiah 10:6-7), Cyrus (Isaiah 41:2-4), and Artaxerxes (Ezra 7:21)- they pursued their own chosen path, and served the furtherance of God's will, though in their personal lives they were disobedient, self-willed and sinful.


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

Shygal said:


> I am guessing by your name and quoting the old testament that you are of the Jewish faith. I know the fiery hell of christianity is not a belief of the Jewish faith, so you are correct
> 
> The new testament however, is full of fire and eternal torment.


No I am not Jewish. I am a Christian. You still have not shown me a passage of eternal torment for sinners. And, what is wrong with the Hebrew scriptures? 

(2 Timothy 3:16) *All* Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

Karen said:


> No government exists that God does not permit - Dan 2:21, 4:17, Deuteronomy 10:14; Psalms 135:6
> 
> God fixed the boundaries for the peoples of the world (Deuteronomy 32:8).
> 
> ...


You are absolutely correct in that God has done these things to use the nations to support his will. In particular all the nations around the Israelite nation under God's care as you have quoted. But you have also proven my point in the scripture now 

So far as it has suited His purposes, He has allowed nations to go their own way (Acts 14:16). 

Still the point is made "Why would he bless and support any particular World Government when he is going to destroy all these current World Governments and install his own?" ( Rev 16:14; Dan 2:44)


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> Considering the atrocities committed by human kind over the entirety of its history, if it is because God gave control to Satan, then he basically made humans, handed the reins to Satan and walked away.



The Bible clearly shows that God created the angels, Earth, the animals and then Man. in that order. And God saw that it was very Good. (Genesis 1:31)

Then , because we all have free will, including the angels, one angel desired that he be worshiped. He then caused Eve then Adam to sin. (Genesis 3:1-7)
So instead of wiping everything out and starting over, God knows his way will prevail. He has allowed Satan to rule. This has brought pain, and death, sickness, war and what not. What God promises is peace and love and everlasting life ( Psalms 37:10,11,29; Matt 5:5). When God's appointed time is up, Gods way will be proven that Satan and man cannot rule without God in control. Then he will destroy the wicked and Satan (Matt 25:41, Rev 20:10)and install his government on earth for all to live forever.


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Work horse said:


> Please explain where you feel society has lowered standards?


Spelling and grammar ... those would be my guesses! :hysterical:


----------



## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Zephaniah said:


> No I am not Jewish. I am a Christian. You still have not shown me a passage of eternal torment for sinners. And, what is wrong with the Hebrew scriptures?
> 
> (2 Timothy 3:16) *All* Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,


Where did I say anything was wrong with it?

but ok then


"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched'' (Mark 9:43-48).

Luke 16:19-26:
"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.....


Matt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels ; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me [nothing] to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 " And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." 

Matt 5:22 (NASB) "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty [enough to go] into the fiery hell. 

need more?


----------



## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

EDDIE BUCK said:


> Gen. 6:3 "And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man,"
> 
> Romans 1:24 "God gave them up to do unclean and sinful things from the lust (desires) of their own hearts"
> 
> ...


 Thanks Eddie,,, I guess PM isn't what it once was...
What Paul doesn't realize,,, I was evicted 2 weeks ago and my shop had a padlock put on it.. I no longer am in business due to not getting paid from my clients...
I have since found a job that barely meets what I call minimum wage,, and am living out of my jeep,, meaning ,, clothes are in garbage bags,,, some items are in a box somewhere,, and am sleeping on my bosses futon for the time being. I havn't even found my bible to respond,, and have been working too many hours to even collect my thoughts,, let alone,, attempt to find a passage of scripture that I was sure Paul could find on his own..
Being on HT,, sad to say,, is part of my "down time. Where I can relax and enjoy myself for a bit.
Sorry Paul,, but,, you could have found that if you tried,, if I knew it was there,,, then you should have to.. 
As I mentioned in PM to you that is no longer private,,, Jesus almost always stated,,,* it is written*,,, He never gave chapter and verse.. Granted,, chapter and verse wasn't invented at the time,,, but He was talking with mostly scribes who did know "what had been written".
also mentioned in my now not so private message was this,,, I have found its not always wise to quote scripture on the forum,,, Gods word is so abused and used out of context,,, unless one reads the previous verse and several following,,, the true meaning is totally lost.
Besides,,, any true born again christian doesn't have to know scripture and verse,,, IF,,, He/she has studied enough,,, he/she would know if what was stated on an open forum was in fact something Jesus would state,,, because it falls within His character to say those things...
GH


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

Shygal said:


> Where did I say anything was wrong with it?
> 
> but ok then
> 
> ...


That quote "Hell and hell fire" is taken from the greek word &#8220;Gehenna&#8221; and it means the means &#8220;valley of Hinnom,&#8221; for it is the Greek form of the Hebrew geh hinÂ·nom&#8242;. In Jos 18:16, where &#8220;valley of Hinnom&#8221; occurs, the Greek septuigint reads &#8220;Gehenna.&#8221; It occurs 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, first appearing in Mt 5:22. 

The valley of Hinnom became the dumping place and incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem. Bodies of dead animals were thrown in to be consumed in the fires to which sulphur, or brimstone, was added to assist the burning. Also bodies of executed criminals, who were considered undeserving of a decent burial in a memorial tomb, were thrown in. If such dead bodies landed in the fire they were consumed, but if their carcasses landed upon a ledge of the deep ravine their putrefying flesh became infested with worms, or maggots, which did not die until they had consumed the fleshy parts, leaving only the skeletons.
No living animals or human creatures were pitched into Gehenna to be burned alive or tormented. Hence, the place could never symbolize an invisible region where human souls are tormented eternally in literal fire or attacked forever by undying worms. Because the dead criminals cast there were denied a decent burial in a memorial tomb, the symbol of the hope of a resurrection, Gehenna was used by Jesus and his disciples to symbolize everlasting destruction, annihilation from God&#8217;s universe, or &#8220;second death,&#8221; an eternal punishment.
Therefore, to have one&#8217;s dead body cast into Gehenna was considered the worst kind of punishment



> Luke 16:19-26:
> "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.....


This is an illustration or a parable. Look at the context. How could a drop of water cool his tongue? why a drop of water. Why not ask "douse me with water." The rich man and Lazarus are symbols of classes of people logically their deaths are also symbolic. What do their deaths symbolize, or represent?

Jesus has just finished pointing to a change in circumstances by saying that &#8216;the Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptizer, but from then on the kingdom of God is being declared.&#8217; Hence, it is with the preaching of John and Jesus Christ that both the rich man and Lazarus die to their former circumstances, or condition.



> Matt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels ; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me [nothing] to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 " And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Lets let the Bible interpret itself again. What is the eternal fire. It is the second death or symbolic lake of fire as brought out in Revelation 20 and chapter 21. But is it torture? Once again, No. Look at the context In Matt 25:41 it says, "into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels" then look at Rev 20:10

And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Then look at Revelation 20:14, it says; "And death and Ha&#8242;des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire."
How can one throw death and hades into the lake of fire. One cannot. It is symbolic of everlasting Destruction. THe Greek word used in the original text is "basanizo&#772;" for the word "tormented" Thayers bible dictionary defines this word as "1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal" 

Thus the actions of the devil will sever as a test to all, mankind and angels, the Gods way is the right way, and God will not tolerate any interference furthermore.




> Matt 5:22 (NASB) "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty [enough to go] into the fiery hell.
> 
> need more?


Once again the reference to fiery hell in the original Greek text is Gehenna and it is symbolic of everlasting destruction. 

Additionally, What does your Bible say at Matt 10:28? This is a key scripture for those bibles that use Hell. It is important to reason on this. So what happens to the soul in "hell" or actually in Gehenna?

Ezekiel 18:4;20 has already established that the soul dies. Solomon said basically the same at
(Ecclesiastes 9:5) For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.

Since the Bible is the word of God (John 17:17) and God cannot lie (Titus 1:2) and he has specifically said that the person and the soul die ---- THEY DIE. Therefore we need to let the Bible interpret itself for what appears to be a conflict.


----------



## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

If you want my opinion, and you probably don't....if one wants to find something, they will find it, sort of like seeing animals and shapes in clouds or meanings in dreams, etc. Tell me one time period in history where someone who believes in God could _not_ have pointed to the state of the world and said that the signs of the end approaching were present, or that the world was in a state of distress due to disobeying God, etc. If you look for it, it's there.


----------



## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

chamoisee said:


> If you want my opinion, and you probably don't....if one wants to find something, they will find it, sort of like seeing animals and shapes in clouds or meanings in dreams, etc. Tell me one time period in history where someone who believes in God could _not_ have pointed to the state of the world and said that the signs of the end approaching were present, or that the world was in a state of distress due to disobeying God, etc. If you look for it, it's there.


 You do have a point.
Doesn't take away the fact tho,, that someday..........


----------



## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Just look at World War II for example, what with Hitler and everything....that _had_ to seem like the end times to people then. 

If I believed in the bible, I would have to say that the tribulations and end times stuff does not point to a specific, isolated time in history but to events which occur in every lifetime, and which replay over and over again so that everyone gets to experience them and learn from them.


----------



## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

chamoisee said:


> Just look at World War II for example, what with Hitler and everything....that _had_ to seem like the end times to people then.
> 
> If I believed in the bible, I would have to say that the tribulations and end times stuff does not point to a specific, isolated time in history but to events which occur in every lifetime, and which replay over and over again so that everyone gets to experience them and learn from them.


 You don't have to believe in the bible to experience the end times,,
we will all experience times where we think,, can it get any worse?
The so-called "end times" probably started before you and I were born.
Only God knows the day He finally stands up and says,,, Ok,,, Thats enough..
To be honest,,, I don't know if I want to be alive or not on that day,,, for me,,, I know where I'm going,, and most importantly,,, I've taught my boys well,, and not to fear,,, but,, we are after all still human. I think most non-believers forget that fact... We don't change personally. We still want to live to see another day. Watch our children grow up to be men and women.
GH


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

chamoisee said:


> Just look at World War II for example, what with Hitler and everything....that _had_ to seem like the end times to people then.
> 
> If I believed in the bible, I would have to say that the tribulations and end times stuff does not point to a specific, isolated time in history but to events which occur in every lifetime, and which replay over and over again so that everyone gets to experience them and learn from them.


Interesting points, but the Bible does point to 1914 as a crucial time in OUR history and is specific to that date. It is the end of the appointed times of the nations. Soon, God ends the nations and installs his Kingdom ( Dan 2:44 ) . Thus ends the replay. I am willing to explain it if you want. PM me.


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Zephaniah said:


> Interesting points, but the Bible does point to 1914 as a crucial time in OUR history and is specific to that date. It is the end of the appointed times of the nations. Soon, God ends the nations and installs his Kingdom ( Dan 2:44 ) . Thus ends the replay. I am willing to explain it if you want. PM me.


You're a Jehovah's Witness, aren't you?

Your remarks about Hell reminded me of the beliefs of my JW friends back home.


----------



## Work horse (Apr 7, 2012)

willow_girl said:


> Spelling and grammar ... those would be my guesses! :hysterical:


Must be too early in the morning for me. Upon reading your response I had to re-read my quote about 4 times thinking, OMG, what, did I use the wrong "where"? Double negative? Too abiguous? Then I scrolled up and figured it out. 


Anyways, regarding God's Master Plan, if it's already set out and has been decided, why even bother praying for anything? He's clearly not going to change his plans over some begging and pleading from mere mortals.


----------



## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> AMEN.
> I am a Believer and Follower of Jesus Christ.......
> But if ______ doesn't want to be, then fine.
> That is his/her choice.
> ...


I completely agree. For that matter, God demonstrates over and over again throughout the Bible that He doesn't want our love to be coerced. 
He gives us free will to choose Him or not.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Work horse said:


> Anyways, regarding God's Master Plan, if it's already set out and has been decided, why even bother praying for anything? He's clearly not going to change his plans over some begging and pleading from mere mortals.


That's an interesting and common question, probably asked by everyone at some point. It seems to confuse us mere mortals, lol.
That's why I gave the "father analogy" earlier.
It isn't so much that tragedies and atrocities are all "part of God's plan" as we are so often told by people that just can't come up with a better answer, but it's that no matter where our free will takes us, He knows the eventual outcome. That seems to be a conflict, but it really isn't if you think of the father/child relationship.

Think of it like this. Let's say your father and mother planned to have a child. They planned for that child to grow up well, go to college, and one day be president of the U.S. or something like that. we've all heard the story.
But then a little thing like free will comes into play. The story doesn't quite turn out perfect, but that father still had a plan, still tried to guide you, still loves you and will do most anything you ask when you call on his help. 
Does that mean his plan wasn't a good one? Does that mean because he didn't step in every time and prevent every accident and mistake, that he didn't love you? Does it mean that because of that, you don't love him?
Or did he just create you, dropped you off somewhere and turn his back?
I guess some might have had a bad experience with an earthly father that might affect how they view a heavenly one, but it's just something to think about.


----------



## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

Zephaniah said:


> Interesting points, but the Bible does point to 1914 as a crucial time in OUR history and is specific to that date. It is the end of the appointed times of the nations. Soon, God ends the nations and installs his Kingdom ( Dan 2:44 ) . Thus ends the replay. I am willing to explain it if you want. PM me.


That is purely speculation.


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

PaulNKS said:


> That is purely speculation.



Not really. What happened in 1914? The first World War. Yes there all ways have been Wars, but not involving the entire World. That fact by itself is ending the replay.

Have a read at Matthew Chapter 24. Pay attention at verses 6 and 7

. 6-YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet.
7-&#8220;For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8-All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress

And the parallel account in Luke 21:11-and there will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another pestilences and food shortages; and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs.

There have always been earthquakes but never so many - killing so many people. The earthquake that struck the Indian Ocean in 2004 and the tsunami that followed made that year the &#8220;deadliest in nearly 500 years for earthquakes&#8221; and &#8220;the second most fatal in recorded history,&#8221; according to the U.S. Geological Survey.

Around the globe, illnesses old and new sicken ever greater numbers, and hoped-for remedies are proving elusive. For instance, international goals to eradicate malaria have had to be scaled back repeatedly as the disease continues to defy human control.
In addition, millions are killed by old diseases, including tuberculosis (TB), now operating in tandem with AIDS and other new diseases. &#8220;One-third of the world&#8217;s population is currently infected with the TB bacillus,&#8221; reports the World Health Organization. The organization also notes that HIV is contributing to the TB epidemics in many countries. Every second, another person is infected with TB, and TB is developing greater resistance to drug treatment. In 2007 a patient in Europe was diagnosed with TB that was &#8220;invulnerable to every single drug we have,&#8221; reported New Scientist magazine.

&#8220;Because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off,&#8221; Jesus said. (Matthew 24:12) Besides what Jesus foretold, the apostle Paul pointed forward to a collapse of social and moral values. He described the difficult &#8220;last days&#8221; that would come just before God&#8217;s Kingdom would end this world system. &#8220;Men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power.&#8221; (2-Timothy 3:1-5) Have you not seen that people display such bad traits more than they used to?
I know just in my time I have spent from when I was 16, I have seen a huge decline in moral and social values.
Something in 1914 changed!


----------



## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

Countrybumpkin said:


> Don't know how many of you read the website The Coming Depression, but it has an article on it today about all the problems facing America today-war, crime, drought, immorality, etc and it has got me wondering-I know God does not foresake anyone, and I also know that most people have forsaken Him, so do you think He decided to take a vacation? Just sort of give up on us as a country, judging it too far gone? Maybe I'm over thinking all this, but in the wake of the terrible CO shooting, not to mention everything else going on right now, perhaps He no longer blesses this once-great country.


God will not bless immorality. What we're witnessing now is our country being given over to many of its sins. When this happens, God (who restrains sin) takes his restaint away over time to let sin run its course. This is why things seem to be much worse than in the past. The Bible says that God will not be mocked and whatever a man sows, that he shall also reap. When a nation allows the killing of millions of unborn children and the redefining of marriage for example, it will eventually be plagued with many problems.


----------



## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Win07_351 said:


> God will not bless immorality. What we're witnessing now is our country being given over to many of its sins. When this happens, God (who restrains sin) takes his restaint away over time to let sin run its course. This is why things seem to be much worse than in the past. The Bible says that God will not be mocked and whatever a man sows, that he shall also reap. When a nation allows the killing of millions of unborn children and the redefining of marriage for example, it will eventually be plagued with many problems.



This is an interesting contradiction. God gave us free will, to follow him or not. When you die, you will supposedly be judged on that. But, if he is going to spend all of his time punishing people and nations for not following him, where is the free will? Either believe in me or I will ruin your lives and your nation.

Also, what about all of the believers? Why would he punish them in conjunction with the 'sinners'? Some people say that he is testing their belief. If so, he is awful insecure.


----------



## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Zephaniah, then the question is one of -- "Is God in control of all things"? 

If your answer is 'yes' then that means He is in control of all nations and it's leaders. By not intervening when we think He should, or our not knowing when or if He intervened, doesn't mean He is not in control. 

If your answer is 'no', then it means God isn't all the Bible says He is.

For the others........

Point taken that you can point to any time in history that could have indicated it was the end times. But has the thought ever occurred to you that God was merciful enough to not end it then, rather give us more time. Perhaps many of history's events have simply been dress-rehearsals!


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Think of it like this. Let's say your father and mother planned to have a child. They planned for that child to grow up well, go to college, and one day be president of the U.S. or something like that. we've all heard the story.
> But then a little thing like free will comes into play. The story doesn't quite turn out perfect, but that father still had a plan, still tried to guide you, still loves you and will do most anything you ask when you call on his help.
> Does that mean his plan wasn't a good one? Does that mean because he didn't step in every time and prevent every accident and mistake, that he didn't love you? Does it mean that because of that, you don't love him?
> Or did he just create you, dropped you off somewhere and turn his back?


If you believe a god created us, then it seems the same god also created, oh, say for example, Lou Gehrig's disease.

I dunno about you, but I'm not feeling the love here!


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

Karen said:


> Zephaniah, then the question is one of -- "Is God in control of all things"?
> 
> If your answer is 'yes' then that means He is in control of all nations and it's leaders. By not intervening when we think He should, or our not knowing when or if He intervened, doesn't mean He is not in control.
> 
> ...


God is absolutely in Control. Just he he is allowing Satan to run things on earth. He may move government and leaders to do things to accomplish his will, but he does not FAVOR any particular government EXCEPT HIS OWN

The Bible clearly states that Satan is the ruler of this world. ---

(John 14:30) I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me,
(1 John 5:19) We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one.
Even when Jesus was approached by Satan in his 3rd temptation (Matthew 4:8-9) Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory,9-and he said to him: âAll these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.â
Jesus did not say Satan did not have possession of all the kingdoms, he said it is God you must worship.

Look at the prophecy in Daniel 2. Notice the progression of Kingdoms starting with the Babylonian. Then comes Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, then the last the anglo-American world power, then No more - God's Kingdom is next.

Another point. If God helps or blesses any particular government, would he not be helping Satan, being the ruler of this world right now?

The Bible also clearly states that God does not cause any evil, ANY evil
(James 1:13) When under trial, let no one say: âI am being tried by God.â For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.
It is mans imperfection that causes these things. Inherited from Adam. I know you know that account.


However - He will undo all that shortly 

(Revelation 20:10) And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


Just because we think God should intervene does not make it that he should do so.

(Revelation 20:10) And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


He is proving a point right now. Proving that Satan's way is not the way that brings happiness and peace to mankind. In the meantime while we maintain faith and integrity to God will prove we love him


----------



## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

Zephaniah said:


> Not really. What happened in 1914? The first World War. Yes there all ways have been Wars, but not involving the entire World. That fact by itself is ending the replay.
> 
> Have a read at Matthew Chapter 24. Pay attention at verses 6 and 7
> 
> ...


 Dont let mere history stand in the way of a good story! Sorry, WWI did not involve "the whole world" and the 2004 earthquake and tsunami though one of the strongest was in the top 10 as far as lives lost. TB never went away in the world and most of the descriptions of your fellow man could be applied to any century in history.

If your seeing a huge decline in moral or social values then find new friends...and stop watching so much TV. It saddens me that some people think like this, what a sad fearful life and I sure hope this isnt the type of revisionist history being taught in Sunday school.


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> If you believe a god created us, then it seems the same god also created, oh, say for example, Lou Gehrig's disease.
> 
> I dunno about you, but I'm not feeling the love here!


possibly, but our imperfection allows us to contract such diseases. God's original purpose is for us to live forever.
Notice in Genesis chapter 1 and 2. The only way for man to die was to eat of the tree. 
(Genesis 2:17) But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.â

No other case does it say man would die. And what did Adam do? He ate the fruit. so he died and we do also right now (Romans 5:12). But God has made plans to correct that. Out of his love for his creation.

(John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
(John 3:16) âFor God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

Look at some of the blessings listed in the Bible - 

Wickedness, warfare, crime, and violence will be gone. Psalm 37:10,-11, 
Psalm 46:9; Isaiah 2:4,Psalm 72:7.

Godâs worshipers will live in security.Leviticus 25:18,-19, Isaiah 32:18; Micah 4:4.

Food shortages will not exist. Psalm 72:16, Psalm 67:6.

The whole earth will become a paradise.Isaiah 65:21-24; Revelation 11:18, Psalm 145:16.

There will be peace between humans and animals. Isaiah 11:6-9; 65:25.

* Sickness will vanish*. Isaiah 33:24; 35:5,-6.

Dead loved ones will be restored to life with the prospect of never dying. Acts 24:15; John 5:28,-29.


----------



## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Zephaniah said:


> Since the Bible is the word of God (John 17:17) and God cannot lie (Titus 1:2) and he has specifically said that the person and the soul die ---- THEY DIE. Therefore we need to let the Bible interpret itself for what appears to be a conflict.


Well, it sounds like you are trying to explain away what the bible actually says. 

"for I am tormented in this flame..... "
and
"into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels"
and
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life"

sure sounds like eternal torment and fiery hell to me. 

That is the problem with the bible, everyone can make it sound like what they want it to.


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

salmonslayer said:


> Dont let mere history stand in the way of a good story! Sorry, WWI did not involve "the whole world"


Researched here 
Willmott, H.P. (2003), World War I, New York: Dorling Kindersley, ISBN 0-7894-9627-5, OCLC 52541937
I'll leave it as an exercise for you.


> and the 2004 earthquake and tsunami though one of the strongest was in the top 10 as far as lives lost.


Tell that to the U.S. Geological Survey
Earthquake Information for 2004



> TB never went away in the world and most of the descriptions of your fellow man could be applied to any century in history.


Really? 
The Age of Turbulence: Adventures in a New World is the title of a 2007 book by Alan Greenspan in it;
&#8220;By all contemporaneous accounts, the world prior to 1914 seemed to be moving irreversibly toward higher levels of civility and civilization; human society seemed perfectible. The nineteenth century had brought an end to the wretched slave trade. Dehumanizing violence seemed on the decline. .-.-. The pace of global invention had advanced throughout the nineteenth century, bringing railroads, the telephone, the electric light, cinema, the motor car, and household conveniences too numerous to mention. Medical science, improved nutrition, and the mass distribution of potable water had elevated life expectancy .-.-. The sense of the irreversibility of such progress was universal.&#8221;
But .-.-. &#8220;World War-I was more devastating to civility and civilization than the physically far more destructive World War-II: the earlier conflict destroyed an idea. I cannot erase the thought of those pre-World War-I years, when the future of mankind appeared unencumbered and without limit. Today our outlook is starkly different from a century ago but perhaps a bit more consonant with reality. Will terror, global warming, or resurgent populism do to the current era of life-advancing globalization what World War-I did to the previous one? No one can be confident of the answer.&#8221;

Greenspan recalled from his student days a statement by Economics Professor Benjamin M.-Anderson (1886-1949): &#8220;Those who have an adult&#8217;s recollection and an adult&#8217;s understanding of the world which preceded World War-I look back upon it with a great nostalgia. There was a sense of security then which has never since existed.&#8221;&#8212;Economics and the Public Welfare.

A similar conclusion is reached in the volume A World Undone, by G.-J.-Meyer, published in 2006. We read: &#8220;Historic events are often said to have &#8216;changed everything.&#8217; In the case of the Great War [1914-1918] this is, for once, true. The war really did change everything: not just borders, not just governments and the fate of nations, but the way people have seen the world and themselves ever since. It became a kind of hole in time, leaving the postwar world permanently disconnected from everything that had come before.&#8221;

Other people see it different than you do. But don't get me wrong. I believe you can believe what ever you want.



> If your seeing a huge decline in moral or social values then find new friends...and stop watching so much TV.


That is why I do not watch TV. Which brings us to the point-- now it is on TV.
Was not several years ago!



> It saddens me that some people think like this, what a sad fearful life and I sure hope this isnt the type of revisionist history being taught in Sunday school.


What? The blessings God holds out to those that want to follow him?
Peace, no Wars, no famine, no death, no sickness, live forever.

Wickedness, warfare, crime, and violence will be gone. Psalm 37:10,-11,
Psalm 46:9; Isaiah 2:4,Psalm 72:7.

God&#8217;s worshipers will live in security.Leviticus 25:18,-19, Isaiah 32:18; Micah 4:4.

Food shortages will not exist. Psalm 72:16, Psalm 67:6.

The whole earth will become a paradise.Isaiah 65:21-24; Revelation 11:18, Psalm 145:16.

There will be peace between humans and animals. Isaiah 11:6-9; 65:25.

Sickness will vanish. Isaiah 33:24; 35:5,-6.

Dead loved ones will be restored to life with the prospect of never dying. Acts 24:15; John 5:28,29.

It makes you sad that people believe in this?


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

Shygal said:


> Well, it sounds like you are trying to explain away what the bible actually says.
> 
> "for I am tormented in this flame..... "
> and
> ...


Did you even reason on what I wrote. You are reading a translators idea on these terms "eternal punishment, hell". The original word in Greek is Gehenna which means death with no chance of resurrection. I did not make it what I want it to sound like, I let the bible interpret itself.

Did you read Matthew 10:28?
Or that Jesus was in Hell by some versions of the bible

Acts 2:25-27, KJ: âDavid speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], .-.-. Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.â 

The fact that God did not âleaveâ Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades, at least for a time, does it not? An if Jesus was in Hell was he tormented? Did he burn like you say?

âMuch confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.ââThe Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.
Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: (1) The King James Version rendered sheâohl&#8242; as âhell,â âthe grave,â and âthe pitâ; hai&#8242;des is therein rendered both âhellâ and âgraveâ; ge&#8242;enÂ·na is also translated âhell.â (2)-Todayâs English Version transliterates hai&#8242;des as âHadesâ and also renders it as âhellâ and âthe world of the dead.â But besides rendering âhellâ from hai&#8242;des it uses that same translation for ge&#8242;enÂ·na. (3)-The Jerusalem Bible transliterates hai&#8242;des six times, but in other passages it translates it as âhellâ and as âthe underworld.â It also translates ge&#8242;enÂ·na as âhell,â as it does hai&#8242;des in two instances. Thus the exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured.


----------



## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

Zephaniah said:


> Researched here
> Willmott, H.P. (2003), World War I, New York: Dorling Kindersley, ISBN 0-7894-9627-5, OCLC 52541937
> I'll leave it as an exercise for you.
> 
> ...


 Go back and re-read your references Zephaniah, they say nothing of what you are claiming. WW I had a dozen or so countries in active warfare and a handful of countries with active fighting anywhere near their own country...of the 100 or so countries that participated most were providing materials and profiteering. The geopolitical change that occurred is another matter and you may have had a better argument if you referenced WWII where true evil manifested itself in the name of intolerance. According to the US Geological survey the 2004 event was one of the top 10, not the top 2 and if you actually research their site they admit part of that is due to more accurate recordings and documentation. Most folks in this world arent Christian and quoting biblical passages out of context isnt convincing anyone. I dont begrudge you your beliefs, but history is history and yes I find these type of posts sad and depressing.


----------



## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Zephaniah said:


> Did you even reason on what I wrote. You are reading a translators idea on these terms "eternal punishment, hell". The original word in Greek is Gehenna which means death with no chance of resurrection. I did not make it what I want it to sound like, I let the bible interpret itself.


and I am reading your ideas on the terms "eternal punishment" and "hell" , what is the difference? 

An awful lot of churches teach hellfire and brimstone


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

salmonslayer said:


> Go back and re-read your references Zephaniah, they say nothing of what you are claiming. WW I had a dozen or so countries in active warfare and a handful of countries with active fighting anywhere near their own country...of the 100 or so countries that participated most were providing materials and profiteering. The geopolitical change that occurred is another matter and you may have had a better argument if you referenced WWII where true evil manifested itself in the name of intolerance. According to the US Geological survey the 2004 event was one of the top 10, not the top 2 and if you actually research their site they admit part of that is due to more accurate recordings and documentation. Most folks in this world arent Christian and quoting biblical passages out of context isnt convincing anyone. I dont begrudge you your beliefs, but history is history and yes I find these type of posts sad and depressing.



I went back and read the first post. I said

_Not really. What happened in 1914? The first World War. Yes there all ways have been Wars, but not involving the entire World_

Yes, it did involve the entire world, It changed everything. Verified by my reference material I posted. You have taken my post out of context. I did not say all of them fought.

Goes true with the rest of my material. But I don't want to argue, I'll just leave it like it is and let everyone make their own decisions. 
(2 Peter 3:3-4)


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> This is an interesting contradiction. God gave us free will, to follow him or not. When you die, you will supposedly be judged on that. But, if he is going to spend all of his time punishing people and nations for not following him, where is the free will? Either believe in me or I will ruin your lives and your nation.
> 
> Also, what about all of the believers? Why would he punish them in conjunction with the 'sinners'? Some people say that he is testing their belief. If so, he is awful insecure.


I don't believe God is punishing us, but do believe He will, and possibly already has, remove his hand of protection.


----------



## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

Zephaniah said:


> I went back and read the first post. I said
> 
> _Not really. What happened in 1914? The first World War. Yes there all ways have been Wars, but not involving the entire World_
> 
> ...


 Fair enough, I guess my point to the OP is no, no god has forsaken this country. I keep seeing posts where the kids and adults are all immoral, money grubbing, and how things are so bad as if this was a new phenomena that has beset us when in reality every generation has had similar feelings and zealots who believe this. Folks have been waiting for signs of the end of times since the beginning of times and its common among almost all cultures including what we would consider extremely primitive ones. The fact that you can hear about riots in Anaheim, murders in Kentucky, a terrible truck accident in Texas, and the worst TB outbreak in Florida in 20 years all in the span of a 20 minute news show makes it seem like things are worse than they are because prurient interests are what grabs viewers but how many of these folks do you actually know? There are plenty of bad neighborhoods around with less than desirable people but to turn that around why would you live there? None of the people I know or associate with are like that. We are in a drought right now; is that end of times or is it the worst drought since the mid 1950s and just a natural progression?

I can quote just as many passages from any number of religious doctrine that seeks to find meaning in natural phenomena or societal conflict and picking WW I is just as valid as saying Dec 24 is end of times because of some incomplete or obscure Mayan calendar. But just like New Years Day 2013 will come and go with the world still being here so too will yet another generation go into their graves never seeing the oft anticipated rapture or end of times. 

With little effort you can pin most of the worlds most murderous times on religion ...of all types. After 2000 plus years isnt it time we woke up a bit?


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

willow_girl said:


> If you believe a god created us, then it seems the same god also created, oh, say for example, Lou Gehrig's disease.
> 
> I dunno about you, but I'm not feeling the love here!



:hrm:

I suppose I _could_ give a few passages in Genesis that would refute that, but I would bet you already know them. And since a verse by verse tussle is so unproductive in so many ways, let's not go there. Besides the popcorn is free, lol.
I know that many people feel that it's only fair to blame Him for the troubles in the world, after all, that's the price for being the Boss, right? There are verses that say not to do that, but that's irrelevant to a non-believer, so again, no point it trying to go there either.
So, what do you think about this?
If He gets the blame for ALS, does His son get any credit for healing the lame?
Feeling the love yet?


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

For the record, I don't believe "God is to blame for ALS."

What I was trying to convey is that the evidence does not suggest that the universe was created by a deity who was particularly concerned about human suffering. 

Most people start from the position that God loves us, then try to cobble together an explanation as to why so many people -- including believers -- suffer horribly anyway. "Free will" or "Satan rules the world," or some such ...

I think it makes more sense to look at the evidence and draw conclusions from it. The evidence, as far as I can tell, does not point in the direction of a deity who is concerned for our well-being. :shrug:


----------



## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> For the record, I don't believe "God is to blame for ALS."
> 
> What I was trying to convey is that the evidence does not suggest that the universe was created by a deity who was particularly concerned about human suffering.
> 
> ...


 Even believers sometime need to change their paradigm,,not sayin its easy,,,God will literally tear your heart out,,, at least the parts that needs torn out.. But in the end,,, well,, I'm glad I went that route.
Much more so,, for those who enjoy using scripture to punish others..
GH
ps. I say this out of love WG,, You may not understand why,, but,, I hurt for you. And I care


----------



## Zephaniah (Mar 16, 2010)

Shygal said:


> and I am reading your ideas on the terms "eternal punishment" and "hell" , what is the difference?
> 
> An awful lot of churches teach hellfire and brimstone


Yes they do and what does the Bible say about that?

(1 John 4:1) Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

(Colossians 2:8) Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry YOU off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;

Notice "the traditions of men". Let the Bible speak, not false doctrine. The Bible CLEARLY states no Hell fire NO eternal Punishment. Ezekiel 18:4;20. Matt 10:28


----------



## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

I GOT those things from the bible, and they do state hell fire and eternal punishment, it is you that says it doesn't. 
That again is the problem with the bible.


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Marshloft said:


> Even believers sometime need to change their paradigm,,not sayin its easy,,,God will literally tear your heart out,,, at least the parts that needs torn out.. But in the end,,, well,, I'm glad I went that route.
> Much more so,, for those who enjoy using scripture to punish others..
> GH
> ps. I say this out of love WG,, You may not understand why,, but,, I hurt for you. And I care


Once again, I think I've been slightly misunderstood. I'm not suggesting that I'm suffering in some way! Or that my own personal suffering led me to my conclusion ... no. I've actually had a pretty good life, bordering on awesome. 

However, if you look at the natural world, and the way it is structured, it does not seem to have been created in a way that suggests mankind enjoys "most favored species" status. 

Most believers resort to an explanation along the lines of the "father God" analogy:



> Think of it like this. Let's say your father and mother planned to have a child. They planned for that child to grow up well, go to college, and one day be president of the U.S. or something like that. we've all heard the story.
> But then a little thing like free will comes into play. The story doesn't quite turn out perfect, but that father still had a plan, still tried to guide you, still loves you and will do most anything you ask when you call on his help.


... which perhaps explains why people die in wars and in muggings; because people have free will and thus are able to do things contrary to God's wishes (or so the theory goes).

But this ignores the fact that the natural world is full of nasty little booby traps that kill people in horrific ways -- things like smallpox and cholera and the bubonic plague, all (presumably) the work of the same creator. IMO, it's pretty hard to reconcile their existence with the idea of a loving "father God." Would you put a rattlesnake in your baby's playpen?

Sorry, but the evidence (as far as I can see) does not point toward a creator who cares about us. And history teaches that people who put their trust in this supposed creator to help them, or protect them, or otherwise intervene in the mortal sphere, often were sadly disappointed. (Even Christ on the cross falls into this category -- "Father, why have you forsaken me?")


----------



## Work horse (Apr 7, 2012)

Zephaniah said:


> What? The blessings God holds out to those that want to follow him?
> Peace, no Wars, no famine, no death, no sickness, live forever.
> 
> Wickedness, warfare, crime, and violence will be gone. Psalm 37:10,-11,
> ...


It makes me sad if it turns Christians against non-believers, or when Christians blame others for all the problems in the world.

It makes me sad when people give their lives to the church and spend so much time trying to get into heaven, that they miss out on how beautiful and precious each moment on earth is.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

willow_girl said:


> Once again, I think I've been slightly misunderstood. I'm not suggesting that I'm suffering in some way! Or that my own personal suffering led me to my conclusion ... no. I've actually had a pretty good life, bordering on awesome.
> 
> However, if you look at the natural world, and the way it is structured, it does not seem to have been created in a way that suggests mankind enjoys "most favored species" status.
> 
> ...



Willow, I get what you're saying, but even misquoting Psalms 22 whether in Hebrew or Greek (God, not Father) won't get me into a tit-for-tat verse debate. You wish to remain a non-believer, so there is no need to continue planting seeds. 
But I like scientific evidence too. That is one of the ways I've come to MY conclusions about the Creator.
You might be interested in what has been discovered about the DNA of viruses and bacteria - their original forms and their mutations today, since the subject you bring up is disease. But then again, if your mind is already made up, it might not matter at all.:shrug:
And I guess the answer to the question "Does Christ get any credit for healing" is "no", since you don't believe in either the Father or the Son.

http://www.trueorigin.org/virus.asp

Of course, not following the original plan in regards to diet, cleanliness, sexual morality, etc., would change the original planned outcome, wouldn't it?

If what you believe brings you joy and what I believe brings me joy, I'm ok with that, too.


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Farmrbrown,

OK, I took a look at your link. It appears the adjunct professor who wrote it takes the long (very long) way around to theorizing that God never intended humans to contract AIDS or cholera, but rather that the diseases were introduced into our species thanks to unauthorized sexual conduct with monkeys and sheep.

The author conveniently ignores the host of other diseases transmitted sans misbehavior ... for instance, rabies, spread by the bite of an infected animal. :shrug:


----------



## Fae (Mar 9, 2005)

I am a Christian who is at times very confused about things. I have really enjoyed reading each person's views. I think my confusion stems from the fact that I was sexually and physically abused in a foster home from age 9 till 12. I always come back to wondering why? Why, if God is such a good God, do little children have to suffer so much? It is the one thing that hinders me. I believe in letting everyone believe however they choose. It is not for me to say and I just try to love each one(or not) based on their character.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Work horse said:


> It makes me sad if it turns Christians against non-believers, or when Christians blame others for all the problems in the world.
> 
> It makes me sad when people give their lives to the church and spend so much time trying to get into heaven, that they miss out on how beautiful and precious each moment on earth is.


I am not against any un-believers and don't believe the world is in the shape it's in only because of unbelievers. I also don't believe that giving my life to Christ (notice I didn't say the church) has caused me to miss out on anything, quite the opposite. It has opened my eyes to the beauty that God created and gave to us. I've been a children's minister for many years. A couple of years ago I had back surgery and couldn't teach for over a year. During that year I basically felt lost because I was not able to do what I loved and had been called to do. I'm not back ministering to the children and feel complete. When a person is truly called by God into a certain ministry (and I believe every Christian is called in one capacity or another) and they aren't doing it, then they feel incomplete because they are. There is beauty in doing what you were created to do.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Fae said:


> I am a Christian who is at times very confused about things. I have really enjoyed reading each person's views. I think my confusion stems from the fact that I was sexually and physically abused in a foster home from age 9 till 12. I always come back to wondering why? Why, if God is such a good God, do little children have to suffer so much? It is the one thing that hinders me. I believe in letting everyone believe however they choose. It is not for me to say and I just try to love each one(or not) based on their character.


Fae, we live in a fallen world. It is not the world that God created, but one that man created by sinning. When I lost my kids I was not a Christian. I guess in one sense it's a good thing I wasn't or I may have blamed God for taking them from me. By the time I accepted Christ I had already read through the Bible several times, searching for answers that the world couldn't give me. So I already knew that the Word teaches that Jesus came to give life and more abundantly, but that Satan was out to steal, kill and destroy. Just as God is real, so is Satan. Yes, bad things happen to good people. When my kids died, I wasn't a bad person. Yet I saw my daughter catch on fire and burn till you couldn't recognize her as a human being. I went through 3 years watching one chld after another die. I had nightmares for years and to this day still have bouts of insomnia because I'm afraid to sleep. Certain thing will trigger the nightmares of holding my dead babies. Yet the only peace I was able to find was in surrendering to Christ. I blame Satan for the loss of my kids and many other things I have faced in life, such as homelessness, and yes, even sexual abuse by a relative and physical abuse from parents and a spouse. Yet through all the things I have faced, I realize that it's not God's will for us to go through these things, but that man allowed these things by sinning, and since we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, then we are all responsible for the shape the world is in. However, those who believe and put their faith in Christ know that our time here is short compared to eternity where there will no longer be any pain or sorrow. If you would like to know more please feel free to PM me.


----------



## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

I'm sure I'll be in the minority with this, but for god to have forsaken anything one must first a) believe in the existence of said individual, and then b) believe that he actually involves himself in the affairs of mankind... or picks a side, for that matter. Actually, next in line after these, one would have to set some sort of measure (or examples) of how god "forsook" things. 

Assuming for the moment that god does exist, and that he does care, I'd definitely say he has not forsaken anything. We went from being a scattered group of settlers, constantly picked on by Great Britain, to being the most powerful (militarily) country in the world. We beat the British. We beat the Indians. We beat the Messicans and the Spanish and the Germans and the Japanese and the Soviets. So, in this regard, he has not abandoned us.

If you mean by some form of social measure, Women now have the right to vote, the right to self determination, and the ability to lead their lives for the most part as they see fit. African Americans were freed from slavery. People of all faiths or sexual orientations are free to do as they see fit. So, in this regard, it seems that god has smiled on us as well. 

For those that would caution with tales of "Soddom and Gomorrah" or similar, I'd remind them that the new testament (it's the latter section in that book yall are beating on) basically annuls the majority of the old testament, and that only through salvation and acceptance of the big JC can one be saved. We're no longer required to judge our neighbors. We can eat pork. We can wear cotton-poly blends. We don't have to stone rebellious teenagers to death. Any number of other things we can now do... should we choose to do so. It's up to the individual and their maker ~ says right so in that book.


----------

