# Teacher's fat pensions



## Madame (Jan 1, 2003)

Last year I heard again and again about us rotten teachers and how we were getting big fat pensions at the expense of the taxpayers.

I did some research this week. My big, fat pension will be $343 a month.

Rest easy, y'all.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

It's odd- teachers in California get 3% per year of teaching in STRS and can retire at age 55. So they basically can easily qualify for a 100% pension at age 55 for the rest of their life.
Why is yours so low? Does WI have a different system?


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

At least you have a pension. We are self employed and *no one* is footing the bill for our future income other than ourselves.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Madame said:


> Last year I heard again and again about us rotten teachers and how we were getting big fat pensions at the expense of the taxpayers.
> 
> I did some research this week. My big, fat pension will be $343 a month.
> 
> Rest easy, y'all.


So how much of that came from your paycheck?

You see I put in 10% of my pay per pay period into a 401K, the company provides nothing, taxpayers provide nothing, government provides nothing..

I'm willing to bet that your Union collects a fee for managing your retirement funds and pensions... Also, if you don't pay into it from your paycheck, then it is entirely provided by taxpayers....

So I will sit here quietly waiting for your donation to my pension.. I figure if taxpayers have to fund teachers pensions entirely, then the least teachers and other Unionized government workers should at least contribute to mine.. 

Oh and add the scum politicians also.. They get a golden parachute with both pensions and health benefits.. That there is real theft and thievery...

Oh, another thought.. I also pay for my (mine and the wife's) health care.. That there is $67 a week, and it definitely isn't a Cadillac plan.. 

So let me guess, you pay upwards of 3% of your Health insurance...

Imagine that!


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

I have over $500/month taken out of my paycheck for the STRS program. As far as I'm concerned, I am paying for my own pension (if it is even there when I retire)

Let's step back for a moment and focus on the folks currently receiving their own "pension" that they have done nothing to earn and will do nothing to pay back.
It is called WELFARE! 

Back off the teachers. I had the police in my room 4 times today and was lucky I ducked when a metal chair came flying across the room. Until you do what we do (especially those of us working in the inner city), your complaints about our pension mean nothing to me!!!


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

By the way, if teachers have it "made', why not go to college for 4+ years and become one yourself? Much easier than complaining about what we get and you don't
Life is all about choices.......


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

I am a public employee. I pay 50% toward my pension plan and my employer pays the other half.

My wife works for a private business man. She pays 50% of her 401K contributions and her employer pays the other half.

No difference. Get off your high horses people.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Cabin Fever said:


> Get off your high horses people.



I can only speak for myself, but I am certainly on a high horse because it seems as if teachers are constantly being accused of getting more than they deserve.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

I personally don't have a problem with teachers getting a pension. What I DO have a problem with is not being able to fire inadequate teachers because they have tenure.


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

Quote "your complaints about our pension mean nothing to me!!!"

Teacher's demands for lifelong pension after retirement mean nothing to *me* other than a way to pick their taxpayer neighbor's pockets. It seems to me that those who budget these pensions into their retirment income have no right to gripe about how much or how little they get. If taxpayers get to foot the bill, I agree with Beowulf---where is teacher's contribution to MY pension? Fair is fair, after all.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Teachers are taxpayers, too. If you want a pension, go get a career that offers one.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

shanzone2001 said:


> I can only speak for myself, but I am certainly on a high horse because it seems as if teachers are constantly being accused of getting more than they deserve.


Sorry, my comment wasn't directed at you it was directed at people who believe that public employees are treated so much better than private employees.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

JuliaAnn said:


> Quote "your complaints about our pension mean nothing to me!!!"
> 
> Teacher's demands for lifelong pension after retirement mean nothing to *me* other than a way to pick their taxpayer neighbor's pockets. It seems to me that those who budget these pensions into their retirment income have no right to gripe about how much or how little they get. If taxpayers get to foot the bill, I agree with Beowulf---where is teacher's contribution to MY pension? Fair is fair, after all.


A teacher contributes to your pension every time s/he buys something from you and you invest a share of that profit into a 401K or other retirement savings program.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

In fact, in my career I had a couple of knives pulled, was caught between the security guard having pulled his gun on one side to threaten the man who pulled his gun on the other, had people threaten me and threaten me with killing themselves, and chairs thrown through windows, bomb scares, etc. It's not that uncommon when dealing with the public in general in the world today. And I wonder if you could do what I did either.
And as for teaching, I did student teach which is some experience. 
Shanzone- I have no idea how much you earn to know whether the amount you mentioned is a typical amount to pay into retirement system. And I don't think any so far has said teachers have it made. 
I do believe that a 100 % pension at age 55 is really much more than California can afford as a defined benefit.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Cabin Fever said:


> Sorry, my comment wasn't directed at you it was directed at people who believe that public employees are treated so much better than private employees.


In years past that was true. In fact public service used to be a lesser paying job in exchange for better security. 
But as globalization has taken place, people who used to have pension and health insurance for life have lost those things in large part. And their wages have suffered lately.
To date public employee have not shared that loss. Earnings for public employees tend lose ground after the general population so I expect that public workers will become underpaid at some point and the cycle will start again.
But right now it is reasonable for people who have lost ground to look sharply at those who haven't. It's normal.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

shanzone2001 said:


> !
> 
> Back off the teachers. I had the police in my room 4 times today and was lucky I ducked when a metal chair came flying across the room.


4 Times!!!! It sounds like you just can't get along with anyone.:gaptooth:


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## Beowulf (Aug 27, 2010)

At least you don't have your 401K rolled into the general fund. Not even sure the DW will get out what she paid into it.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

where I want to said:


> I do believe that a 100 % pension at age 55 is really much more than California can afford as a defined benefit.


Try again....more like 60% at age 63.

As far as CA not being able to afford a pot to pee in, it is because we are "The Welfare State". 
Funny how folks hate hard-working people getting a benefit like a pension, but they have little or nothing to say about folks getting money for free. As the liberal world turns.........


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Every where I worked had a pension plan. I now have 4 pension for the rest of my life. Some of it was public and some was private and the public was less than the private plains. If it was offered and you took them up on it you don't have a complaint about getting it. Every body has a Ox to be gored but this is not one of them. Life is about choices and I thought a pension plan was a choice the I took them up on.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Cabin Fever said:


> I am a public employee. I pay 50% toward my pension plan and my employer pays the other half.
> 
> My wife works for a private business man. She pays 50% of her 401K contributions and her employer pays the other half.
> 
> No difference. Get off your high horses people.


I think you and others are missing the point.. I didn't start this thread,I just responded to the whining..

I also had a friend (until his passing) who was a teacher and collect he did.. He made out like a bandit.. But he didn't brag or boast about it and he didn't cry or whine when he thought others were being "unfair" in their assessment of what he got...

This thread was started apparently to whine about how unfair we are to teachers etc... If you (in general, not you personally) don't want others opinions or views, don't start a thread whining about those opinions and views...

I know I'm just a mean ole codger who hates everyone, especially those who make more than me....



NOT!


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

where I want to: are you saying California teachers pay into their pensions 3% and get 100% of their working salary when they retire at 55? If so, that does seem real extreme and that it would be likely that the taxpayer would have to supplement the employees pension check.

In my case, the pension program is funded entirely of contributions by the employee and employer before the employee retires.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

poppy said:


> 4 Times!!!! It sounds like you just can't get along with anyone.:gaptooth:


Brat!!!!!!:nana:


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

where I want to said:


> In years past that was true. In fact public service used to be a lesser paying job in exchange for better security.
> But as globalization has taken place, people who used to have pension and health insurance for life have lost those things in large part. And their wages have suffered lately.
> To date public employee have not shared that loss. Earnings for public employees tend lose ground after the general population so I expect that public workers will become underpaid at some point and the cycle will start again.
> But right now it is reasonable for people who have lost ground to look sharply at those who haven't. It's normal.


I agree. But let's not aim our anger at the employee, it should be directed at the employer (ie, the politicians).


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Beowulf said:


> At least you don't have your 401K rolled into the general fund. Not even sure the DW will get out what she paid into it.


True, but took a big hit when the economy dropped out, unlike teachers and government workers here in PA who are guaranteed a certain amount no matter what the market does.. It has put the State into a huge hole and the Legislators refuse to do anything about it.. They keep raising our taxes to pay for this debacle..

So anything I may get from my 401K is basically going to go to the Government to pay taxes... 

This will destroy us.. 

Remember those of us in the private sector don't get raises every year or every couple of years, but teachers and government workers do..
So when they raise taxes to cover the costs of these Defined benefit plans, we the taxpayers lose higher percentage of our pensions/pay...


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Beowulf said:


> At least you don't have your 401K rolled into the general fund. Not even sure the DW will get out what she paid into it.


Not sure if that was directed at me, but my pension funds are invested in stocks and bonds and are overseen by an elected group of employees, not the government.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

How To Calculate Your Retirement Benefit From CalSTRS
Calculating a Member-Only Defined Benefit retirement includes three elements:

Age Factor x Service Credit x Final Compensation
= Retirement Benefit (member only) 

Age Factor 

The age factor is the percent of final compensation to which you are entitled for each year of service credit. This percentage is determined by your age on the last day of the month in which your retirement is effective. 

The age factor is set at 2 percent at age 60. The age factor is decreased if you retire before age 60 and increased to a maximum of 2.4 percent if you retire later than age 60.

A 0.2 percentage point career factor will be added to your age factor if you retire with at least 30 years of earned service credit, up to a maximum age factor of 2.4 percent.



I'm glad you said that- although I didn't read about the extra credit stuff- it seems the pension is 72% at age 60, with 30 years of service. More for more years. I had been told something else.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

beowoulf90 said:


> ....Remember those of us in the private sector don't get raises every year or every couple of years, but teachers and government workers do.....


I have not received a raise in five years and my contribution to my health plan has increased each of those years. Not complaining, just presenting the facts.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

In good times, non-government workers usually do much better that public workers in terms of earnings- right now things have taked a nose dive for a lot of wage earners while it hasn't yet effected public workers so much yet.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

It seems to me that the tax payers are the only ones contributing to any government employees pension plan. :shrug:


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

Cabin Fever said:


> I am a public employee. I pay 50% toward my pension plan and my employer pays the other half.
> 
> My wife works for a private business man. She pays 50% of her 401K contributions and her employer pays the other half.
> 
> No difference. Get off your high horses people.


 How about it. My wife is a teacher. She has paid her half for the last three decades. The state however decided that they were EXTRORDINARILY gifted as investment gurus, and failed to put a dime in for a decade, or so. Their "logic" was that they were so good at making money that they no longer needed to add their half to the pot. As you might have guessed, the plan is flat broke, underfunded by billions. The cure? Have the lying dirt bag vultures in the state legislature start putting the offical word out. "The teachers are nothing but greedy scum, trying to bleed the tax payers, don't worry we will get them back under our thumb and save the day.......


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

beowoulf90 said:


> True, but took a big hit when the economy dropped out, unlike teachers and government workers here in PA who are guaranteed a certain amount no matter what the market does.. It has put the State into a huge hole and the Legislators refuse to do anything about it.. They keep raising our taxes to pay for this debacle..
> 
> So anything I may get from my 401K is basically going to go to the Government to pay taxes...
> 
> ...


Please read my first post. The fact is that the idiots that are in charge of paying the state's portion of some public pensions in PA. failed to do so for years, then they feed you the BS you cite. Another fact is that COLAs for state pensioners are nearly non-existant. Most teacher have been on pay freezes for the last several years in my area of PA. Underfunding in PA. is a self inflicted wound on the part of our state government. A defined benefit pension is something mutually agreed upon by both parties. In this case, one side did the right thing and paid their fair share. The other failed, and now wants you to swallow their lies. The falling market, which has now returned to record levels, has nothing to do with this. If you are suggesting that the state needs to address this by eliminating the burden of pension costs, that horse has long left the barn. You make a commitment to an employee to share the funding of a pension, you keep your word. We have a state that's stupid enough to defund education at every turn, and fails to even tax a windfall of drilling profit, while swearing off any tax hike for any reason. There are lots of reasons that we are in this mess, from left wing spending to right wing idiocy. Stealing teacher pensions is not the answer to our problems.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> It seems to me that the tax payers are the only ones contributing to any government employees pension plan. :shrug:


For about half of my career I worked for a major metropolitan public wastewater utility. 100% of the money used to run their facilities including building new infrastructure and paying their employess - which I was one - came from sewer usage fees. I suppose you could say that is a tax. In my way of thinking, it was a service fee.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Madame said:


> Last year I heard again and again about us rotten teachers and how we were getting big fat pensions at the expense of the taxpayers.
> 
> I did some research this week. My big, fat pension will be $343 a month.
> 
> Rest easy, y'all.


Maybe we are comparing apples _and_ oranges.

Years ago, I worked for an auto part mfg and was forced to join the UAW - while receiving a whopping $4.35/hr, while, normal autoworkers wages averaged $18/hr.

It's very likely that Teacher's unions in some areas, negoiated fat pension programs, that Teachers who hired much later, or live in lower cost areas, receive less than generous pensions.

People do need to realzied that pensions are not always created equal.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Most folks have no idea what other people do to earn their pay checks. Government employees are always an easy target. More recently, people are up in arms about education. Teachers are an easy target. Many haven't been in a classroom since they were 16 years old. WI Gov grabbed the country's attention when he tried to break the teacher's union. Many tax payers were behind him. What they fail to see is that after they break that union, then all government employees unions, then all unions and then all the non-union workers as well. Big business can save a lot on shipping when they get our wages down to that of a Chinese laborer.


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## GammyAnnie (Jun 2, 2011)

Madame said:


> Last year I heard again and again about us rotten teachers and how we were getting big fat pensions at the expense of the taxpayers.
> 
> I did some research this week. My big, fat pension will be $343 a month.
> 
> Rest easy, y'all.


Thank you Madame for your years and years of service, you are a hero to me and the rest on here that say you don't deserve a pension can shove it!

Annie


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## DanielY (Aug 25, 2011)

A pension fund is just one more of many details involved in salary. People also work for vacation time, sick leave, bonuses, discounts, perks and many other things. A pension has been earned and owed, not a hand out. Want someone to work for you then you say X dollars per hour. The next guy says X number of dollars and health insurance, so you have to up that to X number of dollars, insurance and leave time etc. it is how it works. want crap employees offer crap for pay. it will sort itself out. The way I see it it is those whining about what teachers cost that want something for nothing. "Teach the children well but don't expect anything for it". If you took a job that offered crap for pay all I can say is how many ways can you spell Stuuuuuuuupid.


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

Quote "A teacher contributes to your pension every time s/he buys something from you and you invest a share of that profit into a 401K or other retirement savings program:

Teachers buy nothing from us. We fund our own retirement, 100%, as we are self employed. Others mileage may vary.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Old Vet said:


> Every where I worked had a pension plan. I now have 4 pension for the rest of my life. Some of it was public and some was private and the public was less than the private plains. If it was offered and you took them up on it you don't have a complaint about getting it. Every body has a Ox to be gored but this is not one of them. Life is about choices and I thought a pension plan was a choice the I took them up on.


I agree. DH will be able to retire from the USAF in 2 more years and if they started messing with his retirement I'd be upset. I'm already frustrated with what they're trying to do with our medical care. I don't think there's anything wrong with the teachers getting their pensions. They earn them IMO.


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## Beowulf (Aug 27, 2010)

JuliaAnn said:


> Quote "A teacher contributes to your pension every time s/he buys something from you and you invest a share of that profit into a 401K or other retirement savings program:
> 
> Teachers buy nothing from us.


Then I presume you are either retired or on the public dole - every other business requires consumers of some kind, and either direct consumers or downstream consumers may well be teachers, at least in proportion to their number in general society.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> It seems to me that the tax payers are the only ones contributing to any government employees pension plan. :shrug:


Of course they are the owners of the company.


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## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

Madame said:


> Last year I heard again and again about us rotten teachers and how we were getting big fat pensions at the expense of the taxpayers.
> 
> I did some research this week. My big, fat pension will be $343 a month.
> 
> Rest easy, y'all.


 Thank you for what you do. This is for all teachers. Teaching is an honorable profession that should be more valued by society. Too many people some how think because you work for the government you are taking their money. They don't want to see that the reason they must pay is because they are who hired you, and negotiated your pay and benefits package. Not all of us think the budget should be fixed on your backs.

Jim


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## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

where I want to said:


> In years past that was true. In fact public service used to be a lesser paying job in exchange for better security.
> But as globalization has taken place, people who used to have pension and health insurance for life have lost those things in large part. And their wages have suffered lately.
> To date public employee have not shared that loss. Earnings for public employees tend lose ground after the general population so I expect that public workers will become underpaid at some point and the cycle will start again.
> But right now it is reasonable for people who have lost ground to look sharply at those who haven't. It's normal.


Why aren't those who have lost ground, trying to figure out who was responsible for that instead of trying to bring everyone else down to the new low?

This is what I don't get with these arguments. It ought to be "Everyone ought to get a pension and health insurance" instead of "I don't have it, so no one should".


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

haypoint said:


> Most folks have no idea what other people do to earn their pay checks. Government employees are always an easy target. More recently, people are up in arms about education. Teachers are an easy target. Many haven't been in a classroom since they were 16 years old. WI Gov grabbed the country's attention when he tried to break the teacher's union. Many tax payers were behind him. What they fail to see is that after they break that union, then all government employees unions, then all unions and then all the non-union workers as well. Big business can save a lot on shipping when they get our wages down to that of a Chinese laborer.


I, for one, have been in quite a few classrooms since I graduated high school back in 69... and what I have seen not only does not impress me, I find it downright insulting to the teachers I had growing up to even call most of the glorified baby sitters of today "teachers", much less pay them for the "work" they claim to be doing. Grandma always claimed "The proof is in the pudding"..... and our high school graduates today are the evidence. Look around and tell me how much education most our children are actually getting. :flame:


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Jena said:


> Why aren't those who have lost ground, trying to figure out who was responsible for that instead of trying to bring everyone else down to the new low?
> 
> This is what I don't get with these arguments. It ought to be *"Everyone ought to get a pension and health insurance"* instead of "I don't have it, so no one should".


How about everyone should provide themselves with a pension and health insurance instead of having the government provide everything for them? :shrug:


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## Mid Tn Mama (May 11, 2002)

wharton said:


> How about it. My wife is a teacher. She has paid her half for the last three decades. The state however decided that they were EXTRORDINARILY gifted as investment gurus, and failed to put a dime in for a decade, or so. Their "logic" was that they were so good at making money that they no longer needed to add their half to the pot. As you might have guessed, the plan is flat broke, underfunded by billions. The cure? Have the lying dirt bag vultures in the state legislature start putting the offical word out. "The teachers are nothing but greedy scum, trying to bleed the tax payers, don't worry we will get them back under our thumb and save the day.......


And this, my friends, is why the union fees for evaluating and watching that money IS paid in is well worth it. This happens and you need a financial expert to watch it. Teachers should have a right to hire someone to oversee this kind of shenanigans.


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## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> How about everyone should provide themselves with a pension and health insurance instead of having the government provide everything for them? :shrug:


In America you have the right to negotiate the terms of your employment with your employer and enter into a contract. That is what teachers have done. Why should they not be able to do what every one else can do in this country? 

Jim


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## Beowulf (Aug 27, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I, for one, have been in quite a few classrooms since I graduated high school back in 69... and what I have seen not only does not impress me, I find it downright insulting to the teachers I had growing up to even call most of the glorified baby sitters of today "teachers", much less pay them for the "work" they claim to be doing. Grandma always claimed "The proof is in the pudding"..... and our high school graduates today are the evidence. Look around and tell me how much education most our children are actually getting. :flame:


Blame the politicians, please. The teachers I know are just as mad about this as you are.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

I wouldn't be an inner city teacher if the pay was 100,000 a year because to be honest, it is just not worth it to be required by the system itself to teach and be the parent, guardian, counselor, health care worker, etc.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Jim Bunton said:


> In America you have the right to negotiate the terms of your employment with your employer and enter into a contract. That is what teachers have done.


Are you now saying the teachers union is the government?
They are negotiating with UNIONS not their Employer. THAT is the problem here. The UNONS. Teachers Union is the strongest UNION in the USA. They stink.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

where I want to said:


> In good times, non-government workers usually do much better that public workers in terms of earnings- right now things have taked a nose dive for a lot of wage earners while it hasn't yet effected public workers so much yet.


I don't think you are correct.

From where I stand a draftsman/CADD operator in the private sector makes and average of $42,000, but working for the State or Federal Government they make and average of $55,000 plus their benefit package is better.. 

It's the same way for a IT specialist also... 

I've looked at the numbers and this is what I've found to be true.. Government employees make more than private sector employees for the same job on average..


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

wharton said:


> Please read my first post. The fact is that the idiots that are in charge of paying the state's portion of some public pensions in PA. failed to do so for years, then they feed you the BS you cite. Another fact is that COLAs for state pensioners are nearly non-existant. Most teacher have been on pay freezes for the last several years in my area of PA. Underfunding in PA. is a self inflicted wound on the part of our state government. A defined benefit pension is something mutually agreed upon by both parties. In this case, one side did the right thing and paid their fair share. The other failed, and now wants you to swallow their lies. The falling market, which has now returned to record levels, has nothing to do with this. If you are suggesting that the state needs to address this by eliminating the burden of pension costs, that horse has long left the barn. You make a commitment to an employee to share the funding of a pension, you keep your word. We have a state that's stupid enough to defund education at every turn, and fails to even tax a windfall of drilling profit, while swearing off any tax hike for any reason. There are lots of reasons that we are in this mess, from left wing spending to right wing idiocy. Stealing teacher pensions is not the answer to our problems.


COLA's, well guess what you forgot to say? Only Government employees get COLA's, we in the private sector don't get a COLA every year.. We don't even get to think about it....

So why is it my fault that one side failed to keep their "bargain" (read as coerced negotiating ). I'm the one that has to pay higher property taxes to cover your pension...

Also tell me why we pay more per student on average they we have ever paid, yet our schools are failing? Oh wait I keep forgetting that it isn't the school's and the teachers fault, but if we give you more money you will fix the problem.. That excuse has been around for 40 years or more and guess what nothing has changed except that teachers get more money and their pensions get bigger..

Tell me why Education in PA is 36% of the budget and Welfare is 40% of the budget, while everything else is what is left...

If schools were actually teaching it wouldn't be that way...

Tell me why a school administrator starts at $150,000 and in a 5 year period makes $190,000... That's a $40,000 raise, that's more than most people make in a year..

But I do understand! You are other Government Union employees are better than the rest of us and know what is best of us and that is; to pay higher taxes and shut up!


Sorry I won't do that... Also it seems that most schools think sports is a priority over everything else...I mean why else would you spend 1.9 million on "field" restoration and up keep while you have kids failing to learn to read and write...

I guess I'm just a dumb country boy.....


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## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

beowoulf90 said:


> COLA's, well guess what you forgot to say? Only Government employees get COLA's, we in the private sector don't get a COLA every year.. We don't even get to think about it....


Some private sector workers have negotiated COLAs into their contracts, others have negotiated annual raises into their contracts not tied to cost of living. 



> So why is it my fault that one side failed to keep their "bargain" (read as coerced negotiating ). I'm the one that has to pay higher property taxes to cover your pension...


I wouldn't say it is your personal fault, but I would say is the side that failed to keep their bargain represented you (us) and ultimately it is our responsibility to live up to an agreement that was made on our behalf. 



> Also tell me why we pay more per student on average they we have ever paid, yet our schools are failing? Oh wait I keep forgetting that it isn't the school's and the teachers fault, but if we give you more money you will fix the problem.. That excuse has been around for 40 years or more and guess what nothing has changed except that teachers get more money and their pensions get bigger..
> 
> Tell me why Education in PA is 36% of the budget and Welfare is 40% of the budget, while everything else is what is left...
> 
> ...


I can't answer these questions, but you should be blaming the school board not the workers. You elected the board to fix these problems. When they tell you that if we want to compete for the best minds in the country to go into teaching we will have to raise the pay to a level more in line with what those people can make if they go into other fields you might want to listen.



> But I do understand! You are other Government Union employees are better than the rest of us and know what is best of us and that is; to pay higher taxes and shut up!


no response 




> Sorry I won't do that... Also it seems that most schools think sports is a priority over everything else...I mean why else would you spend 1.9 million on "field" restoration and up keep while you have kids failing to learn to read and write...
> 
> I guess I'm just a dumb country boy.....


I agree with this completely. Not the dumb country boy part . It really bothers me to see how much more support even the parents give to the sporting activities then to the kids involved in scholastic competitions. Once again the priorities are set by the school board and ultimately by those electing the school board.

Jim


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## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> Are you now saying the teachers union is the government?
> They are negotiating with UNIONS not their Employer. THAT is the problem here. The UNONS. Teachers Union is the strongest UNION in the USA. They stink.


No I am saying the teachers union negotiates with the government on behalf of teachers. 

Jim


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## Madame (Jan 1, 2003)

where I want to said:


> It's odd- teachers in California get 3% per year of teaching in STRS and can retire at age 55. So they basically can easily qualify for a 100% pension at age 55 for the rest of their life.
> Why is yours so low? Does WI have a different system?


It is based on what we make in our highest paying 3 years.


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## Madame (Jan 1, 2003)

Sonshine said:


> I personally don't have a problem with teachers getting a pension. What I DO have a problem with is not being able to fire inadequate teachers because they have tenure.


They CAN be fired - administrator has to do documentation.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Jim Bunton said:


> Some private sector workers have negotiated COLAs into their contracts, others have negotiated annual raises into their contracts not tied to cost of living.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say it is your personal fault, but I would say is the side that failed to keep their bargain represented you (us) and ultimately it is our responsibility to live up to an agreement that was made on our behalf.
> ...


1st part;
Those again would be Unions, not most of the private sector.

2nd part;
Then hold the politicians responsible or the Government employees who negotiated these unrealistic contracts.. The taxpayer didn't fail to pay taxes, so why are they being held responsible?

Are you responsible for the thief that robs you bank?
Remember you choose to use that bank....

3rd part;
I have been to the school board meeting and it comes down to excuses about how the Union contracts mandate this or the State mandates this or the Feds mandate this all without the funding.. But also remember they loved the stimulus packages and took them like starving animals. But never considered how they were going to pay for it after the stimulus money went away.. So, since the Unions (ie teachers want higher wages, better benefits) and the State and Feds want their mandates and the School board (made up of husbands and wives of teachers) didn't consider or care to consider the end results, we the taxpayers who have taken pay cuts, plus pay more in taxes suffer... I do blame the School Board and the Teachers, remember they are the ones that keep the Unions alive.... 

Last part;

I was at the School Board meetings when they discussed this and agreed to it.. Even though I objected at the meetings. But their response was (in my words) ; They wanted to build a place that competes with the school district next store.. You know "keeping up with the Jones" attitude.. I was shocked when they said as much... Here I thought we funded the school system to teach our children, when it is apparent that we fund the system to give teachers jobs and create kids who think they are going to be able to make a living in sports..

Oh and they decide to raise taxes to pay for this, while sitting on a Capitol fund of over $3 million... Forget that the new school they built a few years ago hasn't been right since it was built and that water has been leaking in since it was built.. That was tabled for a later date to discuss what could be done.. Excuse me! you have water damage now that has been going on for a few years at a new school, yet you haven't addressed it?

Again I know I'm just a dumb country boy, but I guess I should just sit down and shut up and pay my taxes!

So tell me Why? Who? When?

Why should I shut up when my money isn't being spent wisely?

Who should I blame? Those who continually want higher wages and benefits or those who continually give them higher wages and benefits?

When is enough, enough?

As I said we already are spending more per student then ever before with out positive results.. Some schools have been failing for over 8 years, that's 2 generations of students that the system has failed.. 

But again I know the drill! 

Shut up and pay your taxes, we the Unions and the Government know what's best for you!


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## Madame (Jan 1, 2003)

beowoulf90 said:


> This thread was started apparently to whine about how unfair we are to teachers etc... If you (in general, not you personally) don't want others opinions or views, don't start a thread whining about those opinions and views..


Nope. Many people think teachers end up with a large pension. This is a reality check, showing that we don't.

Whining? Nope. Just presenting information.


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## snake35 (Jan 24, 2011)

So we dislike people who work and have retirement plans, and we dislike people who do not work and are on welfare. Who do we like?


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Jena said:


> Why aren't those who have lost ground, trying to figure out who was responsible for that instead of trying to bring everyone else down to the new low?
> 
> This is what I don't get with these arguments. It ought to be "Everyone ought to get a pension and health insurance" instead of "I don't have it, so no one should".


Within reason, I agree. But that would mean limiting competition from countries where they pay impossibly low wages, have no environmental rules and no pensions. 
In the current "all for me" environment that is not likely.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Jim Bunton said:


> No I am saying the teachers union negotiates with the government on behalf of teachers.
> 
> Jim


Well that is a bad thing. Get Keep Government OUT of things.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Madame said:


> Nope. Many people think teachers end up with a large pension. This is a reality check, showing that we don't.
> 
> Whining? Nope. Just presenting information.


Teachers wages and benefit vary widely from state to state and from private to public. Some places teachers make a lot and are certainly not underpaid- some places really underpay. 
A pension can be based on part time work history and that may be why it's low or it could be based on some combined system and the OP was complaining only about one part.
Usually if you get all the facts, there are reasons for the various amounts that have to do with what an individual did rather that the system. 
I suspect that the OP was one of these cases where she might have worked under different systems and the amount she specified was only a part of the story. That's why I asked.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

beowoulf90 said:


> I don't think you are correct.
> 
> I've looked at the numbers and this is what I've found to be true.. Government employees make more than private sector employees for the same job on average..


Actually that was part of my point- right now the downward trend has not hit government workers to the same level has it has supressed private wages. 
But the other part is that the effect on government workers is usually delayed. While private wages go up when the economy improves, government workers usually do not get COLA or get small increases until their earnings end up being so low in relation to private wages that the government can't find people willing to work for them. Then the politicians start raising their pay.
It's a slightly out of phase cycle.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Madame said:


> Nope. Many people think teachers end up with a large pension. This is a reality check, showing that we don't.
> 
> Whining? Nope. Just presenting information.


Fine, then present it in a thread where folks are complaining about teachers salaries and benefits. But as a stand-alone thread it comes off as whining..

So did you take a pay cut? Did your benefits get cut?

A lot of us in the private sector had both happen...

We know taxes (property) went up for everyone, but some of us are getting squeezed from both sides, from teachers and their Unions and Government who placates them...

So what are we to do?

Sit here quietly and allow them to take our livelihood away in the form of higher taxes and higher costs for food etc?

The reality of what happens is the teachers will get a COLA or a raise while the rest of us take cuts and pay higher taxes...

Yet I'm suppose to be thankful about not being able to provide for my family.. If I don't pay the property taxes they take my home and sell it for pennies on the dollar, taking any equity I have away.. It's done regularly here in PA.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I, for one, have been in quite a few classrooms since I graduated high school back in 69... and what I have seen not only does not impress me, I find it downright insulting to the teachers I had growing up to even call most of the glorified baby sitters of today "teachers", much less pay them for the "work" they claim to be doing. Grandma always claimed "The proof is in the pudding"..... and our high school graduates today are the evidence. Look around and tell me how much education most our children are actually getting. :flame:


There is ZERO comparison between the kids 40 years ago and the kids today.
And you think it is the teachers who are to blame? Hah! Try putting some of the responsibility on the parents for raising kids who could care less about an education and think they are entitled to something for nothing.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

FWIW- I have had a pay cut every year for the last 3 years. In addition, I went from having the district paying for 80% of my medical benefits to me paying for them completely out of pocket.
I appreciate that many people have always paid their own medical, but part of the reason I spent 7 years in college was to have a career with a good salary, medical benefits and a pension.
Like I said, life is full of choices and I chose a career that had benefits. 
For those who didn't choose a career with a pension, why are you complaining?


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

snake35 said:


> So we dislike people who work and have retirement plans, and we dislike people who do not work and are on welfare. Who do we like?


Not at all!

But you will notice that since the market fell out, those of us in the private sector have had to take cuts in pay and benefits, but those in Government Unions refuse to do so and have even asked for higher wages or go on strike..

You do have some that say they will suspend their raises for a year, but in the end taxpayers are still having to pay for it, they just get double the following year... So it really helps no one...

You know it's funny how the liberals and Unions always say Tax the rich and share the wealth, until it is them that are the rich or they have to give up their wealth and benefits...


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

shanzone2001 said:


> FWIW- I have had a pay cut every year for the last 3 years. In addition, I went from having the district paying for 80% of my medical benefits to me paying for them completely out of pocket.
> I appreciate that many people have always paid their own medical, but part of the reason I spent 7 years in college was to have a career with a good salary, medical benefits and a pension.
> Like I said, life is full of choices and I chose a career that had benefits.
> For those who didn't choose a career with a pension, why are you complaining?


You are missing the point.. 

I have no problem paying my taxes or as liberals are constantly saying "fair share", but times are tight and I'm making less my benefits have been cut or are nonexistent. But yet teachers , their Unions, Government employee Unions and Government are taking more from me(through higher taxes) then before...

Why?

Could it be that they don't care who they hurt just as long as they get theirs?
I am beginning to believe that is the case.. They claim they care and we (as I've said before) have provided the schools more money per student the ever before, yet we have more failing schools and higher wages for school employees. But we can't keep paying more when we get less, both in pay and the results of our schools..

But again what am I suppose to do?

Sit here and be quiet or voice my opinion?
You seem to be saying I should be a "good little slave and shut up and pay my taxes"

I of course won't do that... I want accountability for the taxes we pay....


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

shanzone2001 said:


> Like I said, life is full of choices and I chose a career that had benefits.
> For those who didn't choose a career with a pension, why are you complaining?


But of course that is not what has happened. Many companies switched their employees to 401k plans involuntarily to save money. They frequently had matching contributions and many companies stopped those too.
The health insurance thing you mentioned has also happened to private employees.
And then there are those who got downsized out of a good job and lost most everything.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> How about everyone should provide themselves with a pension and health insurance instead of having the government provide everything for them? :shrug:


I can't let this go unanswered. The government provides SS and Medicare for those over 65 usually. It is a supplement not a pension. You are responsible to provide everything else. I make at least 4 times more than SS alone. I did it by working at jobs that had retirement plains. If all you have is SS and Medicare I feel sorry for you because it will not be enough because it is a supplement not a retirement.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

I probably shouldn't even get in this fracus, but I will. 

First off Madame, let me tell you that you picked the WRONG state to work in. 

Here in PA, the biggest union around is the teacher's union. Currently, in our district, first time teachers start out at a salary of $33,500, but it quickly goes up from there. In our district, there are 15 "steps" that a teacher can attain. Each year they teach, they move onto another step. 

Now the teacher's contract with the school district states what percentage of raise they will receive each year. So for the first time teacher making $33,500.00 and a contract that states a 3% raise per year - you would assume that teacher starting in their 2nd year of teaching will be making $34,505. ($33,500 X 3% = $1005.00. $1005.00 + $33,500.00 = $34,505.) But you would be wrong.

How can you be wrong, you ask? Because you forget about the step movement. Each step raise if different. (It usually has to do with what step the majority of teachers are when the contract was written.) But the 2nd year teacher moves up to step 2 on the 2nd year, and the "step" pay for a second year teacher might start out at $35,000.00.

So, the teacher on their 2nd year moves up to $35,000.00 and then gets the 3% raise. You sure don't see this in the private sector.

And who makes up the contract for the teachers you ask? It is "negotiated" betweeen the teacher union and the school board. And so you ask, well, why on earth would the school board - who are elected officials - negotiate a contract that isn't fair between both the teachers and the school district? 

Well, several reasons. First of all, there really isn't much "negotiation" - at least from what I have seen. The teachers demand what they want, and if they don't get it, they will strike.

2nd of all, as Beowulf has said, many school boards are made up of either retired teachers, or spouses of teachers. Or it might even be an actual teacher, that teachers in another district. 

So you ask "Well, why on earth does the public elect these spouses of teachers, retired teachers, or teachers?" The answer is since the school board is not a paid position, NOBODY wants to serve on it. The average person doesn't want to run for an elected position where they aren't paid.

And I will make one more comment - about teachers can be fired. Yes, it's true they can be - but it's very hard. Here in PA, as long as teachers receive "satisfactory" results on their once a year evaluation (where a principal comes into their room for 30 minutes one day out of the school year to see what kind of job the teacher is doing) after the 3rd year the teacher receives tenure. Once a teacher has tenure - they are almost impossible to get rid of.

Unless the teacher molests a kid, or steals, or something like that - it's almost impossible to get rid of a teacher. (And even if the teacher did molest a kid, or steal, their union will gladly fight for that teacher - which then costs the school district thousands of $'s in legal fees.


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## mooman (May 19, 2008)

Teacher DOES NOT EQUAL UNION!! 
Almost half the states in the country are "Right To Work" states.
I teach in SC, a right to work state with no union.

1. $55,000 average salary? LMFAO! Try $55,000 MAX CAP after 20 years of teaching. By the way, whats wrong with a professional with a masters degree making an average of 55k anyway?

2. Great benefits? Really? My health insurance is $100 a month with a $500 deductible where NOTHING is covered until I meet that deductible and then its a pretty standard 80/20 split.

3. Awesome Retirement? I put my money where my mouth is and opted for the optional retirement plan (basically a 401K). Yes my district matches funds but only 6% of total income. Pretty comparable to what a lot of private companies offer their professional. PS I took the same hit you did in the market crash Beowoulf.

4. Guaranteed Raises? My salary has been locked for going on four years despite the ever rising cost of living. (see #1 as well)

I would guess that close to half of the teachers in the country are in my shoes. If you want to complain about unions I'll line up next to you every time, but the fact is

*Teacher DOES NOT EQUAL Union! *


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## wildcat6 (Apr 5, 2011)

The problem with teachers retirement is that they are a defined pension plan. Well proven that the plan isn't sustainable without extra funding coming from somewhere.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

mooman said:


> If you want to complain about unions I'll line up next to you every time, but the fact is
> 
> Teacher DOES NOT EQUAL Union!


Well it DOES here in WI.
You Can NOT Teach at all IF you do NOT belong to the UNION.
A Blanket statement like that does not fit all States as Teachers unions in states that have them Are the most Powerful ones around. So move to a sate that does have a strong union problem solved as the money will be rolling in.


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## mooman (May 19, 2008)

Exactly my point. Blanket statements that link the teaching profession with unions are not accurate. It would be like me saying: ---- all banks!! they were responsible for the real estate collapse! Is that fair to the local credit union or savings and loan?

What makes it worse is that people who want to teach in these states are FORCED to join these unions. It's not their choice.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

mooman said:


> What makes it worse is that people who want to teach in these states are FORCED to join these unions. It's not their choice.


Yes, you are correct....


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> Well it DOES here in WI.
> You Can NOT Teach at all IF you do NOT belong to the UNION.
> A Blanket statement like that does not fit all States as Teachers unions in states that have them Are the most Powerful ones around. So move to a sate that does have a strong union problem solved as the money will be rolling in.


You can not teach in the public schools in PA unless you belong to the Union....
They are the most powerful Union here and pollute our political system with more money then any other Union, to both Dem and Rep. So don't expect anything to change in the near future unless we make waves..


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

beowoulf90 said:


> You can not teach in the public schools in PA unless you belong to the Union....
> They are the most powerful Union here and pollute our political system with more money then any other Union, to both Dem and Rep. So don't expect anything to change in the near future unless we make waves..


Well you have to get a governor like we have.
Governor Walker. 
He IS making a difference in all unions, in WI. not just the teachers one. And boy is he in hot water, even facing a recall all due to his strong stance on unions. LOL
But he will withstand the recall and will be the only sitting governor to be elected twice in his first term. LOL


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

shanzone2001 said:


> There is ZERO comparison between the kids 40 years ago and the kids today.
> And you think it is the teachers who are to blame? Hah! Try putting some of the responsibility on the parents for raising kids who could care less about an education and think they are entitled to something for nothing.


So why do you suppose the kids are so different today? Could it be that their parents were raised with all that horse pucky promoted by the progressive lefties? You know the carp... never spank them, never expect them to do anything for themselves? The government will take care of all things great and small? And of course we mustnt forget we are all "entitled" to the good life without an ounce of effort on our part!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Old Vet said:


> I can't let this go unanswered. The government provides SS and Medicare for those over 65 usually. It is a supplement not a pension. You are responsible to provide everything else. I make at least 4 times more than SS alone. I did it by working at jobs that had retirement plains. If all you have is SS and Medicare I feel sorry for you because it will not be enough because it is a supplement not a retirement.


I agree with you entirely.... People need to provide for themselves... using whatever method of investment they feel works best for them, which is what my comment was all about. I would hate to think I had to live on the amount provided by SS in my case. Had I not invested in other income producing venues during my productive years I too would be in a miserable situation today.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Back to the op.... I just did an online calculation of the state monthly pension for a teacher in WI... with 32 years in, at the WI "average" teachers salary for the highest three years of 60k. The results came up with monthly payments the rest of my life of $2,700 and change. (which is way more than I ever earned in my life!) Dunno why your pension is so small? :shrug:


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

I know the teachers in this little town EARN every penny they get. My kids had good teachers. My Mom was a teacher. No union here. My Moms pension barely covered her insurance premium but she was grateful for it. The problem is much bigger than the TEACHERS. It all happened when the federal government thought they could do a better job than the individual district. We have to put up with the federal governments mandates but it doesn't mean we only do what they want. This district goes way beyond that. There are good teachers everywhere and I will always support a GOOD teacher. If everyone would support the good teachers, we would have good schools....James


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

mooman said:


> Teacher DOES NOT EQUAL UNION!!
> Almost half the states in the country are "Right To Work" states.
> I teach in SC, a right to work state with no union.
> 
> ...



I couldn't let this pass- I think that this is part of the problem. 

I have health insurance- it costs me $200 per month, with a $375 deductible, pays 60-70% of most doctor costs. Has no dental or vision coverage.

I'm happy to have my insurance, which I consider good, but I'd love yours. And I think mine is better than many. 

I have talked to many who are paying $1500 per month with a $5000 deductible. 

People have become used to not paying for their retirement or health insurance that covers everything. But the times, they are achanging.


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## Madame (Jan 1, 2003)

​


Yvonne's hubby said:


> Back to the op.... I just did an online calculation of the state monthly pension for a teacher in WI... with 32 years in, at the WI "average" teachers salary for the highest three years of 60k. The results came up with monthly payments the rest of my life of $2,700 and change. (which is way more than I ever earned in my life!) Dunno why your pension is so small? :shrug:


Go here and figure it. http://etfonline.wi.gov/ETFCalculatorWeb/etf/internet/member/ETFretirementcalcinput.jsp

The highest paid teacher in myschool district earns less than 50 K.


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## kendall j (Mar 30, 2007)

where I want to said:


> I couldn't let this pass- I think that this is part of the problem.
> 
> I have health insurance- it costs me $200 per month, with a $375 deductible, pays 60-70% of most doctor costs. Has no dental or vision coverage.
> 
> ...


His insurance may not be that great. Unless things have changed in SC from a couple years ago, the lifetime cap on those plans was not very high. My wife had insurance with them when she taught in SC. The lifetime cap was $1 million. So basically, you were a major medical event away from not having coverage. 

$1500 a month and $5000 deductible. Someone is getting screwed. I paid less than $700 a month for private insurance last year for my entire family. Our deductible was $5450 and no lifetime caps. Sounds like someone needs to do some insurance shopping.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

No- many people who have any sort of medical condition have a difficult time getting any insurance at all. Age plays a part too. And I imagine that the availablity of insurance varies from state to state.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

How 'bout you get a pHD and we'll pay you a little over $30K/year?

The jobs are there, y'all go git 'em!

http://www.doe.state.la.us/lde/finance/2634.aspx


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## Madame (Jan 1, 2003)

arabian knight said:


> Well you have to get a governor like we have.
> Governor Walker.
> He IS making a difference in all unions, in WI. not just the teachers one. And boy is he in hot water, even facing a recall all due to his strong stance on unions. LOL
> But he will withstand the recall and will be the only sitting governor to be elected twice in his first term. LOL


Over a million voters signed the petition to recall him. The outcome is uncertain.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Madame said:


> Over a million voters signed the petition to recall him. The outcome is uncertain.


Ya will see just how many more he gets in the re-call then in the election, So many now are saying it is such a waste of time and money. And besides that is what ELECTIONS area for not this dumb re-call just because some don't agree with Governor Walker. After all everybody KNEW what he was going to do before he got elected even the unions. That has been documented.
Just 2 weeks ago a poll on PBS TV and radio site, had Governor Walker winning by a huge amount. and that was even from a liberal media. LOL
And some of the Dem's can't even get enough money to make a run at Governor Walker. I think that is hilarious myself.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

The current climate in this country seems to be anti-education and anti-educator...With all of the negativity being aimed at teachers, it is a wonder that anyone bothers to become one anymore. It truly is a thankless job...

How many other jobs require you to have a Bachelors degree in order to be hired and then give a specific number of years before you must get a Masters? (In my area, teachers are given 5 years.) Most teachers come out of college with student loans and then must go deeper in debt in order to obtain the Masters and retain their jobs. I remember my first job at Burger King at the age of 16. My favorite co-worker was an English teacher from the city school district. He worked at BK every summer because he was still paying off loans from getting his Masters. How many jobs require you to dip into your own wallet for class supplies? How many other jobs make it your responsibility to look for and report any signs of abuse? If you miss the signs, you may be held liable.

Teachers are professionals and should be compensated as such. Look further up the food chain for the source of the budget problems. That is where it will be found.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Madame said:


> Over a million voters signed the petition to recall him. The outcome is uncertain.


Here is prove that even Teachers KNEW before the election what Governor Walker was going to do. LOL

I am always surprised that teachers NOW say that Walker surprised everyone after he was elected, when he limited collective bargaining (NOT eliminated).

Here is the information given out in 2008 before Walker was elected. Scroll to the bottom to compare Scott Walker to Tom Barrett and then REMEMBER that Barrett used many of Walker's tools to save Milwaukee taxpayers money besides. He complained about it and then realized that it DOES work. 

http://www.weac.org/luc/newsletters/October%20Lakewood%20Lookout.pdf


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## DAVID In Wisconsin (Dec 3, 2002)

Because of Scott Walker my already unreasonable property tax bill actually went down this year. I have never seen that happen before. I'll support him again. The savings in Fond du Lac County just from the cozy teachers union insurance plan is in the millions.


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## okiemom (May 12, 2002)

where I want to said:


> In good times, non-government workers usually do much better that public workers in terms of earnings- right now things have taked a nose dive for a lot of wage earners while it hasn't yet effected public workers so much yet.




not so much. we have had pay freezes, and reduction of pay. this last year was the first raise since 07. all healthcare has skyrocketed benifits reduced. it was known by an outside auditer that we were underpaid 30% vs similar private workers.

we would do much better in the private world but we won't give up not be in the hiring and firing rollercoster. that is the only benifit in working for the city.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Madame said:


> ​
> Go here and figure it. http://etfonline.wi.gov/ETFCalculatorWeb/etf/internet/member/ETFretirementcalcinput.jsp
> 
> The highest paid teacher in myschool district earns less than 50 K.


Thats the site I figured it on which said I would be getting a bit over 2700 per month if I had 32 years in at the average Wisconsin teachers salary and retired at 65. :shrug:


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

TheMartianChick said:


> The current climate in this country seems to be anti-education and anti-educator...With all of the negativity being aimed at teachers, it is a wonder that anyone bothers to become one anymore. It truly is a thankless job...
> 
> 
> Teachers are professionals and should be compensated as such. Look further up the food chain for the source of the budget problems. That is where it will be found.


I am quite thankful I had the teachers (well, most of them anyway) that I had when I went to school during the late fifties and sixties. Most of them were indeed professionals, and did their job well. I am however not quite as impressed with the teachers my younger siblings encountered during the seventies, and certainly not impressed at all with those my step children had to deal with during the eighties and the pseudo babysitters that my youngest dealt with in the first decade of this century. If teachers were compensated based on results, (usable knowledge acquired by students upon graduation) todays teachers on average should all be working for less than minimum wage. I am aware that some of the problems lie upstairs.... but having had a lot of experience dealing with my kids teachers over the years the majority of the problem has consistently been squarely with teachers themselves.


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## birdman1 (Oct 3, 2011)

I'm considering myself very lucky for being a member of a good union .every hour of work they took a small amount now on retirement I am reciveing a livable amount in my pension +health benifits .Keeping the politicians hands out of the pot seems to have been the key to them remaining in the black .teachers have a huge job training the youth of america .


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

TheMartianChick said:


> The current climate in this country seems to be anti-education and anti-educator...With all of the negativity being aimed at teachers, it is a wonder that anyone bothers to become one anymore. It truly is a thankless job...
> 
> How many other jobs require you to have a Bachelors degree in order to be hired and then give a specific number of years before you must get a Masters? (In my area, teachers are given 5 years.) Most teachers come out of college with student loans and then must go deeper in debt in order to obtain the Masters and retain their jobs. I remember my first job at Burger King at the age of 16. My favorite co-worker was an English teacher from the city school district. He worked at BK every summer because he was still paying off loans from getting his Masters. How many jobs require you to dip into your own wallet for class supplies? How many other jobs make it your responsibility to look for and report any signs of abuse? If you miss the signs, you may be held liable.
> 
> Teachers are professionals and should be compensated as such. Look further up the food chain for the source of the budget problems. That is where it will be found.


I have to disagree with you here..

The climate isn't anti-education, anti-educator, but it is anti-taxes..
As I've stated before, we pay more now then we have every paid per student in PA, yet we have more failing schools.. The only ones benefiting seems to be teachers with their pay and benefits...
So while those of us in the private sector have declining pay and benefits, teachers have rising pay and benefits. Couple that with declining performance from the schools, what are we to think?

Property taxes continue to rise while the graduation rates fall.. You have schools were 11th grade students can't read or write at a 6th grade level..

Who's to blame? Teachers and parents share the responsibility, but I can't do anything about the parents, but I can voice my opinion about the rising pay and benefits of the teachers.. 

Why should we as taxpayers continue to pay for failing schools when the problem isn't money, it's the system and the school boards and teachers are a part of that system, a major part.. They continue to get more money for less results, while our taxes continue to rise..

I've seen 2 families in the last couple of years lose their homes even though their mortgages were paid for.. Why? Because both were on fixed incomes and their property taxes went higher then they could afford... All because teachers had to have bigger paychecks, bigger benefits, bigger pensions and the school board had to have a bigger "Taj Mahal" school... What is with these people?

Oh wait I know!

They are liberals who have no problem spending others money, no matter the cost to the people, or who it hurts...

One thing here in PA you never truly own your home.. Even if you paid your mortgage off, you still only "rent" it from the State.. If you don't pay your school property taxes, they will take it for pennies on the dollar.

We have been trying to change this for more then a decade, but guess who keeps standing in the way?

Teachers, their Union, and School boards.. 

So you wonder why taxpayers have had enough... 

For every action there is a reaction! Hence the disdain for teachers and their corruption and their Unions...


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> It seems to me that the tax payers are the only ones contributing to any government employees pension plan. :shrug:


True. Same as private the consumers pay for the pension of the retirees.


The pension formula for my state is .02 X years of service X final average salary, which is an average of the 3 highest in the last 10 years.

The earliest you can retire is 55. When your age and years of service add up to 80 you can retire, but only if you are 55 or older.

Most teachers here make around 35,000 a year. 

So if you were a teacher with and get to 80 at age 55 you would earn

17,500 a year pension. That would be with 25 years of service.

Most people can't afford to go at 55 due to the cost of health insurance and have to wait for Medicare.


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

beowoulf90 said:


> As I've stated before, we pay more now then we have every paid per student in PA, yet we have more failing schools.. The only ones benefiting seems to be teachers with their pay and benefits....


Actually PA has laid off teachers and kept the budget under control by warehousing students in huge consolidated schools. 

We talking about merit pay for teachers, and laying off teachers or closing schools whose students perform poorly, yet nearly every study that has been done on reducing student to teacher ratio shows an improvement in test scores.

Yet we want to cut money spent on education so we as a society are not willing to spend the money to make our schools better.

In addition anti union and republican policies have resulted in both parents having to work so kids have less help with their homework because their parents don't have time to help them. They are too busy working so some CEO can have a raise and turn around and decry the state of education.:shocked:


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

Madam, This amount will be after how many years of employment as a teacher and at what retirement age?


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Amen, hollowdweller.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Hollowdweller said:


> Actually PA has laid off teachers and kept the budget under control by warehousing students in huge consolidated schools.
> 
> We talking about merit pay for teachers, and laying off teachers or closing schools whose students perform poorly, yet nearly every study that has been done on reducing student to teacher ratio shows an improvement in test scores.
> 
> ...



How do you figure that?

Since the number of Union employees is something like 10% of all those working.. 

Also tell me why I have to pay prevailing wage when working on a Government project, which includes schools.. We already pay an average of $22/hr, and for benefits and vacation etc, but if they work on a Prevailing wage job we have to pay them over $47/hr plus the benefits..

So is it any wonder that some of us say that Union employees costs the taxpayers money.. Those wages are just for a plumber... I wonder who you are going to get to do the job at your home... The guy making $22/hr or the Union plumber making $47/hr. This doesn't include any other charges, so your service call charge that was $75/hr is is now easily $98/hr...

I bet you would call the non-union plumber.. But that is typical of most Union supporters, it's fine as long as it doesn't affect them personally or they are at the top of the "heap" and someone else is paying for it....


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## Madame (Jan 1, 2003)

bruce2288 said:


> Madam, This amount will be after how many years of employment as a teacher and at what retirement age?



7 years, age 59. However, looking at the website, I realize that I was misinformed. I was told years of teaching weren't figured in, and they are. So it'll be higher than I thought, though not enormous.


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## Stephen in SOKY (Jun 6, 2006)

7 years?


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Stephen in SOKY said:


> 7 years?


Told ya...............


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## Madame (Jan 1, 2003)

where I want to said:


> Told ya...............


As I said, I'd been told years of service didn't count. As I've also said, I believe I was misinformed.

And as nother poster said, more or less, y'all are welcome to borrow scads of money, earn a bachelor degree, earn a masters degree after borrowing more money, spend years paying off those loans, and all just so you can get a tax funded pension.

As I'm obviously becoming irate, it's time for me to leave GC.


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## Stephen in SOKY (Jun 6, 2006)

I assumed 7 years was a typo, is that the correct years of service?


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Madame said:


> As I said, I'd been told years of service didn't count. As I've also said, I believe I was misinformed.
> 
> And as nother poster said, more or less, y'all are welcome to borrow scads of money, earn a bachelor degree, earn a masters degree after borrowing more money, spend years paying off those loans, and all just so you can get a tax funded pension.
> 
> As I'm obviously becoming irate, it's time for me to leave GC.


Some of us do have student loans, even today.... I've been paying on them of almost 10 years now...

So I guess I should get a pension from the taxpayers as well? 

I doubt that will happen though, since I'm not of the "elite" group, oh well..

So student loans isn't an excuse to continue raping the tax payers of their hard earn cash..
Edited by me.. No matter what I said it was coming out very harsh and I have nothing personal against you so I won't say it...


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Madame said:


> 7 years, age 59. However, looking at the website, I realize that I was misinformed. I was told years of teaching weren't figured in, and they are. So it'll be higher than I thought, though not enormous.


Thanks for clearing that up for me. I had just assumed you had put in 30 years or so. 7 years would not qualify for much pension, if any, in most private company retirement plans either.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

beowoulf90 said:


> Why should we as taxpayers continue to pay for failing schools when the problem isn't money, it's the system and the school boards and teachers are a part of that system, a major part.. All because teachers had to have bigger paychecks, bigger benefits, bigger pensions and the school board had to have a bigger "Taj Mahal" school... What is with these people?
> 
> We have been trying to change this for more then a decade, but guess who keeps standing in the way?
> 
> Teachers, their Union, and School boards..


beowoulf90 - I would like to remind you that School Boards are elected officials of people from your school district. They are elected for a term of 4 years. There are 9 board members per school board with 4 board members up for election in 2 years during the 4 year cycle with the other 5 up for election after another 2 years.

If you don't like the current school board members - vote them out after 4 years. If you don't like anyone that is running for school board or seeking reelection, then why don't YOU run to change things - or have your friends or family run?

You say you have been trying to change things for 10 years now. Have you run for school board yourself? Have you suggested others run for school board?

Go here for information: 

www.psba.org/parents-public/board-candidates/how-to-run.asp


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## LearningLife (Aug 11, 2010)

TheMartianChick said:


> The current climate in this country seems to be anti-education and anti-educator...With all of the negativity being aimed at teachers, it is a wonder that anyone bothers to become one anymore. It truly is a thankless job...
> 
> How many other jobs require you to have a Bachelors degree in order to be hired and then give a specific number of years before you must get a Masters? (In my area, teachers are given 5 years.) Most teachers come out of college with student loans and then must go deeper in debt in order to obtain the Masters and retain their jobs. I remember my first job at Burger King at the age of 16. My favorite co-worker was an English teacher from the city school district. He worked at BK every summer because he was still paying off loans from getting his Masters. How many jobs require you to dip into your own wallet for class supplies? How many other jobs make it your responsibility to look for and report any signs of abuse? If you miss the signs, you may be held liable.
> 
> Teachers are professionals and should be compensated as such. Look further up the food chain for the source of the budget problems. That is where it will be found.


Thank you. Just, thank you.


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

Madame said:


> As I said, I'd been told years of service didn't count. As I've also said, I believe I was misinformed.
> 
> And as nother poster said, more or less, y'all are welcome to borrow scads of money, earn a bachelor degree, earn a masters degree after borrowing more money, spend years paying off those loans, and all just so you can get a tax funded pension.
> 
> As I'm obviously becoming irate, it's time for me to leave GC.


I wouldn't let it get to you. I'm one of those oft-maligned government workers (I do IT work); and have often been told that not only does that mean I 'don't work hard,' but that I also 'don't pay taxes,' and so on and so forth.

Yes, I do get compensated fairly well, though by the same token, people who do exactly what I do in the private sector get paid QUITE a bit more than I do, I assure you. I chose a government job because, quite frankly, after dealing with

- losing 2 jobs (in 2005 and 2007, to budget cutbacks)
- my wife being hospitalized in 2005
- my father having 2 heart attacks (in 2002 and 2005)
- my brother hanging himself in prison
- my parents almost breaking apart
- 2 moves in 5 years
- 7 surgeries in 6 years (back surgery, bilateral carpal tunnel and wrist surgery, left and right shoulder surgery, and surgery to remove a bone from a broken ankle that I didn't know about for 6 months)

and any number of other things, I had to have SOMETHING that was fairly reliable. :shrug: Those who know me KNOW I bust my BUTT at my job, as well as off-duty (I think most people here know I put in a bit of time now and then for the site ); and that's enough for me. 

Long as you know the real deal, that should be enough. I wouldn't let it get to you.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Michael W. Smith said:


> beowoulf90 - I would like to remind you that School Boards are elected officials of people from your school district. They are elected for a term of 4 years. There are 9 board members per school board with 4 board members up for election in 2 years during the 4 year cycle with the other 5 up for election after another 2 years.
> 
> If you don't like the current school board members - vote them out after 4 years. If you don't like anyone that is running for school board or seeking reelection, then why don't YOU run to change things - or have your friends or family run?
> 
> ...


I am well aware of how the school board works, but in our School district there are 4 sections, in the section I am in we already have voted in those who will hold the fiscal reins tightly, but there are 3 other sections that I don't get to vote in. So no matter what we in the outlaying areas do, the urban areas vote for spending.... They have got to have that Taj Mahal school with the huge atrium and swimming pool, even though we don't have a swim team...

I have considered running for school board, but at this time it would be senseless, since I would only be replacing another fiscal conservative....


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## Graham (Jul 24, 2011)

Both my wife and I work at an elementary school in SW Missouri. She is a 5th and 6th grade Social Studies and Language Arts teacher and my official job title is Computer Lab Aide, although I do the work of the IT tech in our building as well. She is usually up at four every morning doing lesson plans, grading papers or working on training assignments. We are usually in school by 7am after getting our three kids up and ready. School gets out at 3.30 but we don't usually leave before 5pm, and sometimes it's as late as 8 or 9pm. There are forty other staff in our school that work just as hard and just as long.
Our school has made and improved AYP every year for as long as I remember. So you can see that we do meet our standards of performance even though they move the goalposts every year.
For our efforts our joint gross salary is just short of $50000 per year. Health insurance? Forget it. Our last quote was $780 per month. State pension? Sure, but it will be next to useless by the time we get there. I am resigned to the fact that I will work until they kick me out. Would we change careers for better pay? I very much doubt it as we are both committed to teaching young children. Something that not everyone can do or wants to do. It's compensated by the feeling we are doing something good for our community, and the experiences we get when a student tells us how much we mean to them. You see, we are not just teachers, we are surrogate parents. In fact for some students we are the only stability they know.
All we ask is a little respect and support for doing a job that at times is heartbreaking, frustrating and dangerous. 
And FWIW, less than half of the teaching staff in our district are members of a union.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Graham said:


> All we ask is a little respect and support for doing a job that at times is heartbreaking, frustrating and dangerous.


That would be true for firemen, police, social workers, nurses, EMTs, and many others yet I hear only rude remarks about them. I hear no teachers defending them when they are abused in this forum.


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

It goes a bunch of different ways. I would think it is safe to say that darn near EVERY group of people have issues/hardships we know nothing about.

Of course, this all leads back to the whole "be nice" principle...


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## mooman (May 19, 2008)

Beowoulf90

Here is why you are getting so much push back on this. You seem to be all over the map with your gripes (teacher benefits, teacher salary, fancy new schools) and it really just comes off as sour grapes.

You want to complain about the school board? Go for it!
You want to enumerate the evils of union? I'm right there with you brother!
You want to blame individual teachers for high property taxes? Nope that's where you lose the crowd.

Let me ask you this. I assume you are in some kind of allied construction profession. Assume your company was offered two jobs, but only had the resources to take one. One job would net your company more money, but you knew it was really more than the going rate for that kind of work. Would you really take the lower paying job?

Now lets take it one step further. What if ALL the jobs in your area paid more than the going rate? Would you MOVE TO ANOTHER STATE (away from your friends and family) to get paid less?

I know the above example is not perfect. The truth is most teachers could make a lot more money as corporate trainers. Teachers do what they do because they want to teach children!

On broader topic of public vs private employment. People choose public employment knowing that the wages will not be as high as private employment. In exchange they receive more job security and usually better benefits. Private employment entails more risk, but the rewards CAN BE (not will be) much much higher. That's the way it is. Thats the way it has always been. 

You went with the private sector and right now are suffering a little because of it. When the economy picks up or at the end of your career when you have netted more than your public sector counterparts, will you still be singing the same tune? My guess is that even in this economy you are making more than I am with less post secondary education (not a dig on your level of education, just stating what I believe are the facts)


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Graham said:


> Both my wife and I work at an elementary school in SW Missouri. She is a 5th and 6th grade Social Studies and Language Arts teacher and my official job title is Computer Lab Aide, although I do the work of the IT tech in our building as well. She is usually up at four every morning doing lesson plans, grading papers or working on training assignments. We are usually in school by 7am after getting our three kids up and ready. School gets out at 3.30 but we don't usually leave before 5pm, and sometimes it's as late as 8 or 9pm. There are forty other staff in our school that work just as hard and just as long.
> Our school has made and improved AYP every year for as long as I remember. So you can see that we do meet our standards of performance even though they move the goalposts every year.
> For our efforts our joint gross salary is just short of $50000 per year. Health insurance? Forget it. Our last quote was $780 per month. State pension? Sure, but it will be next to useless by the time we get there. I am resigned to the fact that I will work until they kick me out. Would we change careers for better pay? I very much doubt it as we are both committed to teaching young children. Something that not everyone can do or wants to do. It's compensated by the feeling we are doing something good for our community, and the experiences we get when a student tells us how much we mean to them. You see, we are not just teachers, we are surrogate parents. In fact for some students we are the only stability they know.
> *All we ask is a little respect and support for doing a job that at times is heartbreaking, frustrating and dangerous.
> And FWIW, less than half of the teaching staff in our district are members of a union.*



First off Respect is earned, not given just because of a Title or job. 

In PA you can't teach in a Public school without being a part of the Union or paying "dues" (what they call it escapes me at the moment) if you don't want to be a member of the Union.. The teachers Unions are some of the strongest here in PA, if not the strongest Unions..

Remember we have been going through this recession for a few years now, yet teachers are still getting raises while the rest of us have taken pay cuts, just to keep working.. But our taxes continue to go up...
Wonder why?

We here in PA are not a Right to Work State... 

So again I have to ask,

What is the average taxpayer to do? 
If we don't pay the higher property taxes we lose our homes, yet teachers, through their Unions don't care, just as long as they get higher wages and benefits, otherwise they go on strike..

You want respect when we are being thrown out of our homes for pennies on the dollar...

Sorry as I said earn the respect...


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

mooman said:


> Beowoulf90
> 
> Here is why you are getting so much push back on this. You seem to be all over the map with your gripes (teacher benefits, teacher salary, fancy new schools) and it really just comes off as sour grapes.
> 
> ...


So you work for a company for 7 years, then complain that the retirement isn't enough or large...

Sorry that doesn't work. But that seems to be the premise of this whole discussion..

An *individual* teacher in the original post, posted that their retirement wasn't large, yet it comes out that they only have 7 years on the job..

Well imagine that! 

As to the wages here in PA it seems that Public employment pays more than the private sector unless you are a CEO or some other executive..
As I've said in an earlier post the wages are higher in the "Government" sector for the same employment.

As to my level of education.. 
When a 20 yo drunk took me off my motorcycle and destroyed my ability to do many things, I had to find a way to make a living. Which meant I went back to school.. ON MY OWN DIME! 
I took control of the situation and made something of it, instead of whining about how unfair I was being treated.

I could have just as easily went on SSI disability.. 

But I guess I'm just an idiot for actually wanting to be productive.
I seriously doubt that I'm making more then you, but maybe if you make less than $40K a year...

I actually make less then when I was injured in Sept 1999. That's fine, till you continue to raise my taxes to pay for higher wages, bigger benefits etc...

Now teachers (by way of their Union) want to force me out of my home (by way of rising property taxes) if I don't bow down to their demands. 

They hold the taxpayer hostage, because we all know that government won't say no to them...


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## Beowulf (Aug 27, 2010)

Move to where there are more republicans. You will be happier.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

JuliaAnn said:


> At least you have a pension. We are self employed and *no one* is footing the bill for our future income other than ourselves.


Let me tell you that I paid in every month for over twenty years to my teacher's pension plan. My husband has been self-employed for years. He started an SEP retirement plan when he first went into business for himself. I paid in a huge chunk every month to my pension plan. Unless you were an educator in my state, you paid nothing for my pension. if you are self-employed you have the option of paying into an SEP and you are not taxed on the amount you put into the plan until you start drawing out of it. You should also have paid "self-employment" tax which is just like social security, so you get what you pay for.
I put myself through college to get my degree by raising calves and cleaning houses, I got no help from disability or government handouts, I paid it all myself. I also took graduate classes while I was teaching, I paid for those myself, so I don't need to apologize to anyone for my pension. Teachers in my district did not earn as well as many college graduates. If we wanted a raise, we took graduate classes and moved up the salary ladder. Google to find out how much graduate classes in your area are and you will see, they are not cheap.
I am also not repsonsible for anyone getting thrown out of their house for pennies on the dollar. I did not make anyone take out a loan they couldn't afford. If you are being thrown out of your home, I sympathize, but my pension has nothing to do with your situation, you got into that mess yourself. Our farm and house are reappraised every two years and the taxes always raise. Education is a big part of tax costs but so are road maintenance, libraries, ambulance etc. It takes money to run a school and most of the raise comes from transportation and energy costs. Technology is a big cost in most districts also. In my area teacher raises have very little to do with the rasing taxes.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Beowulf said:


> Move to where there are more republicans. You will be happier.


Who wants republicans?

I'm a Constitutional conservative and from what I've seen both political parties could care less is they violate the Constitution.. That also holds true to School Boards, Unions etc when it comes to the State Constitution...

Better yet let those who want to spend our tax dollars wastefully move.

Also who said I was unhappy? Just because I will debate an issue with passion doesn't mean I'm unhappy..


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

The common remark about paying for one's own pension begs the question. Does the amount you pay in (and your employer pay in) cover the cost of the pension?
If it doesn't, then some one else makes up the difference.


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## Ramblin Wreck (Jun 10, 2005)

During my lifetime, I've seen a change in how pensions are viewed. My father pushed all of us to get as much education as possible, find good jobs with benefits (including retirement plans), and work hard for our pay. He was a dirt farmer most of his life with no pension plan other than social security, but he never saw pensions as wrong or selfish, just a wise choice that he didn't make (that he wanted us to make). As noted by the poster, many now see pensions as wrong or socialist or something. 

If you fund them and have prudent people managing them, pensions work well. Provided no one stacked the deck in your favor at the expense of another and you contributed to your plan with money and time, no one should feel badly about taking their pension. You've earned it.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Putting aside their fat pensions, teachers seem to have other fat things. I take my grandson to kindergarten every day. They collect the kids in the gym and each teacher comes in, lines her class up, and leads them down the hall to their room about 8:00. 90% of those women are huge. I'm not talking overweight, I'm talking obese. I don't think some of them could get in the gym if not for the double doors. We used to have some very attractive teachers when I was in school. I really haven't seen one teacher in that school that a sober man would look at twice.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

My guess is that if the teachers had been young and pretty, then your comment would have been about their moral values. My guess is also that you are not nearly as attractive as you were as a teen, and neither am I.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

where I want to said:


> The common remark about paying for one's own pension begs the question. Does the amount you pay in (and your employer pay in) cover the cost of the pension?
> If it doesn't, then some one else makes up the difference.


Will the amount you and your employer pay in to Social Security cover the cost of your retirement? 
"Teachers in the state plan already contribute to their pensions. They pay 14 percent of their salaries to the system; school districts match the money, chipping in 14 percent of their payrolls. Teachers are taxed on any benefits they receive from the school district. Teachers in the system do not pay Social Security taxes or draw Social Security benefits."



http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/education/article_3c7e5178-c26b-5379-93cf-2f2b34a252ec.html


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

linn said:


> My guess is that if the teachers had been young and pretty, then your comment would have been about their moral values. My guess is also that you are not nearly as attractive as you were as a teen, and neither am I.


Why would I question anyone's moral values unless I know something about them? The school has what they call "Wacky Wednesday" every so often where the kids are supposed to wear goofy clothes. Sometimes I ask my grandson if we forgot about wacky wednesday when I take him in. Those fat teachers dress like clowns and they are not all old either. There is one I can't figure out. Probably 5 feet tall and 300 lbs. and looks to be in her middle 30's. I assume it is a her because she wears earrings and lipstick, but she wears men's carpenter jeans every day and men's flannel shirts tucked in. She also has a big ring of keys in her leather belt and a big billfold in her back pocket with a chain on it like a trucker. Quite an attractive getup. I used to think she was a janitor until I learned she was a teacher.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Madame said:


> Last year I heard again and again about us rotten teachers and how we were getting big fat pensions at the expense of the taxpayers.
> 
> I did some research this week. My big, fat pension will be $343 a month.
> 
> Rest easy, y'all.


How many years did you work as a teacher? Public or private school?

My mother retired from teaching public school and still gets 81% of her working income; that is 4k per month.


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## Graham (Jul 24, 2011)

where I want to said:


> That would be true for firemen, police, social workers, nurses, EMTs, and many others yet I hear only rude remarks about them. I hear no teachers defending them when they are abused in this forum.


That's because I for one, have never seen anyone abuse them on here. If I did I would defend them with my last breath. All those people, like teachers, do the job not for the monetary gain, but for the satisfaction that they are doing something good for the community. And you can add the military in that list too. 
Sure respect is to be earned. But let me ask you this. If a plumber came to your house to do a job for you and he messed it up, would you then start telling everyone that all plumbers were ripping you off? I assume you wouldn't because that would be unfair to all the hard working plumbers in the country. So why are all teachers being blamed for something that has happened on a local scale? That is disrespectful, and that is where I ask for the respect.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

First it has to be observed that the OP started out by stating that the all of us (in the abstact hopefully as it was a pretty nasty shot) think that teacher's get a big, fat pension. She stated a small amount. I responded that it seemed too small and asked how it was calculated. Then the arrows started flying about not respecting teachers which was not the issue of a dollar amount of pension. My assumption was that she had miscalculated which turn out to be correct. 
Leaving out all the rude assumptions made by those who sprang to the defense, I will say that a 70-80% pension of basically the last year of work at age 55 is "a big, fat pension."
And I would also suspect that the contributions toward pension have only been deducted or increased recently so as to keep the various systems solvent. 
To equate any questioning of this situation as being disrespectful to teachers is a giant leap. It was not said anywhere in any of my posting but I'm getting there now.
So no more for me- it's just too futile.


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

beowoulf90 said:


> Who wants republicans?
> 
> I'm a Constitutional conservative and from what I've seen both political parties could care less is they violate the Constitution.. That also holds true to School Boards, Unions etc when it comes to the State Constitution...
> 
> ...


All your bitter ranting seems to gloss over one fact. The issue here begins and ends at one place, Harrisburg. The system is collapsing because it isn't funded rationally, or fairly. It is awash in unfunded mandates. It involves tens of billions in debt from unecessary Taj Mahal buildings with multi-million dollar synthetic running tracks and other stupidity. It is choking the citizens to death as Corbett is trying to defund it. There is plenty of blame to go around. Your sad fixation that it is the fault of the employees, and their fully funded pensions, is just a waste of time. I live in Monroe county, where we have the highest percentage of upside down houses in the state, some of the highest real estate taxes in the nation, and the local economy continues to decay. As enrollments drop, in some cases 20% since 2008, the districts are not allowed to reduce staff by similar amounts. The STATE determines when and if you will be allowed to reduce staff, and so far the answer is largely NO. The state determines if you need additional buildings, if you are going to be spending $23000. a child for special ed. mandates, and just about every other decision that gets made. Sorry that you are so obsessed with hating teachers, but you wouldn't have gotten very far in life without them.


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

beowoulf90 said:


> What is the average taxpayer to do?
> If we don't pay the higher property taxes we lose our homes, yet teachers, through their Unions don't care, just as long as they get higher wages and benefits, otherwise they go on strike..
> ...


Wow, you are really way out there. First, there is absolutely no relationship between any EMPLOYEE of a school, municipality, county, or any other entity who receives a portion of your property tax, and you losing your home. If every school in the state was closed, you still would be paying property tax, and still watching the sheriff auction your property off, if you failed to pay. As I explained before, there are darn few educators in the state that have seen a PENNY in raises since the recession hit, as for increased benefits....... are you high? The trend for the last decade has been a battle to maintain the status quo, NOT demanding better benefits. As for strikes, I'm not sure who you hope to buffalo here, but they are next to impossible here, and have been for a very long time. At best they happen when a board simply refuses to negotiate in good faith for three or four years. Then they are extremely short due to state law, they are also exceeding rare. Changes in state law, dating all the way back to the Ridge administration, pretty much eliminated 98% of teacher strikes in this state. 
We can agree that there is a very serious issue here with Pa. They have to radically cut the cost of education and develop a whole new model for funding it. This obviously involves reducing teacher pay as a part of any sucessful plan. If you do nothing but blame the entire problem on teachers. unions and school boards however, you really miss the point!! I spent a decade supervising new school construction in this state, and I can tell you that teacher pay and bennies are part of a very big, very well entrenched problem. Like a lot of the public, you haven't seen behind the curtain, and you lash out at the easy targets.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

wharton said:


> All your bitter ranting seems to gloss over one fact. The issue here begins and ends at one place, Harrisburg. The system is collapsing because it isn't funded rationally, or fairly. It is awash in unfunded mandates. It involves tens of billions in debt from unecessary Taj Mahal buildings with multi-million dollar synthetic running tracks and other stupidity. It is choking the citizens to death as Corbett is trying to defund it. There is plenty of blame to go around. Your sad fixation that it is the fault of the employees, and their fully funded pensions, is just a waste of time. I live in Monroe county, where we have the highest percentage of upside down houses in the state, some of the highest real estate taxes in the nation, and the local economy continues to decay. As enrollments drop, in some cases 20% since 2008, the districts are not allowed to reduce staff by similar amounts. The STATE determines when and if you will be allowed to reduce staff, and so far the answer is largely NO. The state determines if you need additional buildings, if you are going to be spending $23000. a child for special ed. mandates, and just about every other decision that gets made. Sorry that you are so obsessed with hating teachers, but you wouldn't have gotten very far in life without them.


You honestly think I hate teachers?

That tells me you don't understand.. So tell me why the School Board agreed to raises for the teachers and of course their Superintendent.. 

Did you go from $150,000 to $190,000 in a five year period?

Did you spend 1.9 million to rehab 5 athletic fields, because they didn't look as pretty as the neighboring school districts?

Did you raise School property taxes to cover these expenses while sitting on over $3 million?

No I didn't think so, but the school district I'm in did!

When is enough , enough?

You claim I'm bitter, when the fact is I'm fighting "city hall" with a passion. They don't have that Right to continue to steal more from tax payers while those on fixed incomes are losing their homes because of it....

Call me crazy, but apparently I'm the only one who cares to make waves..IT seems that it doesn't matter how much the Government ( and teachers because they are part of the system) steals from us..

What started this was a false claim in the OP.. Stating how little their pension was.. When the truth came out they only worked 7 years and expected a huge pension... 

Even when I worked for the Teamsters after 7 years I wouldn't get a pension, since it took 8 years to be vested...


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

wharton said:


> Wow, you are really way out there. First, there is absolutely no relationship between any EMPLOYEE of a school, municipality, county, or any other entity who receives a portion of your property tax, and you losing your home. If every school in the state was closed, you still would be paying property tax, and still watching the sheriff auction your property off, if you failed to pay. As I explained before, there are darn few educators in the state that have seen a PENNY in raises since the recession hit, as for increased benefits....... are you high? The trend for the last decade has been a battle to maintain the status quo, NOT demanding better benefits. As for strikes, I'm not sure who you hope to buffalo here, but they are next to impossible here, and have been for a very long time. At best they happen when a board simply refuses to negotiate in good faith for three or four years. Then they are extremely short due to state law, they are also exceeding rare. Changes in state law, dating all the way back to the Ridge administration, pretty much eliminated 98% of teacher strikes in this state.
> We can agree that there is a very serious issue here with Pa. They have to radically cut the cost of education and develop a whole new model for funding it. This obviously involves reducing teacher pay as a part of any sucessful plan. If you do nothing but blame the entire problem on teachers. unions and school boards however, you really miss the point!! I spent a decade supervising new school construction in this state, and I can tell you that teacher pay and bennies are part of a very big, very well entrenched problem. Like a lot of the public, you haven't seen behind the curtain, and you lash out at the easy targets.


How can you honestly say that there is no connection?

Seriously! 

So who do you want me to "lash" out at? I've already been to my Reps, both State and Federal. I've already voted for a conservative member of the School board.. The school property tax is wrong on so many levels..

Wait I just figured it out.. What school district do you work for?

I think you are the bitter one because I question the Public sector Unions and their benefits and am not afraid to voice my opinions....This scares you and others because you don't want folks to know what you actually get....


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

beowoulf90, I promised myself I wouldn't get sucked into to this discussion again, but I would like to remind you that any person living in your state and county, including school employees, is paying the same or more taxes than you. In the district, where I worked for over twenty years, when funds got short, teaching positions usually got cut and those of us left took up the slack by taking on extra students or teaching another class. Raises were few and far between and an across the board raise for teachers had to be negotiated for by a committee elected from our peers. I can only remember one or two small across the board raises for teachers in my district in all the years I worked there. The only way to move up the salary scale was to take graduate classes and become more qualified. These classes were expensive. 
Any school bond levy or issue has to be passed by a vote by the tax payers. If your county is like mine, our property is revalued every two years and our taxes always raise. This is not the fault of teachers, we are paying taxes too. We who are retired may be on fixed incomes also.
I really cannot understand the bitterness and hatred I am witnessing here concerning teachers. Why don't some of you who think teaching is a cushy job, try spending a day in a public school classroom filled with thirty-thirty five high school kids. Try keeping them focused, while maintaining discipline and keeping them on task. But remember, you just get your students down to work and the bell rings for a change of students, more disruption and more time spent in getting settled. My guess is these kids would send you home with your tail between your legs.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

linn said:


> Why don't some of you who think teaching is a cushy job, try spending a day in a public school classroom filled with thirty-thirty five high school kids. Try keeping them focused, while maintaining discipline and keeping them on task.


My teachers didnt seem to have the least problem with that.... and there were 45 of us. We came to class, took our seats, roll was called and we got down to business. Our teachers were apparently smarter than the kids and simply did not tolerate the nonsense. We stayed focused.... or else! :shrug:


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

linn said:


> beowoulf90, I promised myself I wouldn't get sucked into to this discussion again, but I would like to remind you that any person living in your state and county, including school employees, is paying the same or more taxes than you. In the district, where I worked for over twenty years, when funds got short, teaching positions usually got cut and those of us left took up the slack by taking on extra students or teaching another class. Raises were few and far between and an across the board raise for teachers had to be negotiated for by a committee elected from our peers. I can only remember one or two small across the board raises for teachers in my district in all the years I worked there. The only way to move up the salary scale was to take graduate classes and become more qualified. These classes were expensive.
> Any school bond levy or issue has to be passed by a vote by the tax payers. If your county is like mine, our property is revalued every two years and our taxes always raise. This is not the fault of teachers, we are paying taxes too. We who are retired may be on fixed incomes also.
> I really cannot understand the bitterness and hatred I am witnessing here concerning teachers. Why don't some of you who think teaching is a cushy job, try spending a day in a public school classroom filled with thirty-thirty five high school kids. Try keeping them focused, while maintaining discipline and keeping them on task. But remember, you just get your students down to work and the bell rings for a change of students, more disruption and more time spent in getting settled. My guess is these kids would send you home with your tail between your legs.


Fine! I quit!

I DON"T HATE TEACHERS!!!!

What I don't like is Public sector Unions and the raping of taxpayers...Teachers in Public schools are Union!

By default that makes them part of the problem...


Also if you look in my sig line you will see I'm a Civil War reenactor, as such I do get to go to schools and such and do presentations, so I do know a few teachers, because I'm only there by invitation.. I also have those same kids in the Unit that I command... So I know what they get into and do.... Trust me I know how hard it is to get them to put down their cell phones and pay attention to what is going on.. This for safety reasons, because even though we use blanks (black powder only) things go wrong.. I had an 1860 Colt Army revolver loaded with black powder only blow up literally in my hand.. 

Granted I do have help from my 1st Sgt and 2nd Sgt as well as others...But then I'm not paid for any of it! 

But I guess because I voice an opinion I'm bitter and anti teacher and such..

Shaking my head at the silliness!


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Ok, I didn't read all of this thread, but there is one thing I see over and over - taxpayers being irate at teacher salaries and benefits. My husband is a teacher and I haven't noticed that we aren't also taxpayers! Seems to me that we pay a load of taxes, just like everyone else. Seems to me that my husband went to college and got the credentials needed to teach and that the impression of it being basically a stressful and thankless job has some merit to it. Also, he is expected to babysit kids, has to deal with parents that want him OUT because their precious kid flunked a test they wouldn't study for or the parent would rather listen to a kid lie than ask the teacher what really happened, or a teenage girl has a bad day and blames the teacher. 

In our state there's been no COLA for years, even though the voters asked for it. Now there is a decrease in income. Insurance payments have gone up almost as much as the so called COLAs for decades. "We're giving you a $100 raise a month, oh, btw, we're taking $90 of that for your insurance." 

Frankly though I'm more concerned about stronger and stronger centralized control over teachers and less and less local control over them. Through various programs, the National government is taking over teaching (mostly through offering funds to states that will comply with National guidelines and rules). The "No Child Left Behind" legislation was terrible - designed to make school look like they were failing by defining 10% (at least) of them as failures right off the start. Why? So that the Feds could step in and take over and "rescue" the school system from local control. 

Our state, WA, has been working under an equalization scheme that has the State averaging out local monies to be sure to fund all the schools. There's some good in this, but it sure does remove local control, you want to be funded, you dance to the State's tune. Now the Federal government is getting into that act, you want to be funded, you dance to their tune. 

It's no wonder that teachers are finding they MUST teach certain things in the name of social control. Education has become all about teaching how to be a "good productive citizen" at the expense of learning to think independently or even a real education. It's true that many of today's teachers are another generation into the social teaching, it's what they learned. 

My husband is automatically joined into the union in order to teach. He does not agree with the union policies, stances, ideas, socialist programs, but he has to fund them. It stinks. We pay for our union to send out propaganda and sales pitches on the candidates they want in elections, even though we totally disagree with them. 

My father was a teacher in this State too. My parents were better off than we are, his salary was higher in comparison to the cost of living than my husband's. I can look at the pension plans that my husband has worked for and I have no confidence there will be money to fund the promises made to us to encourage my husband to be a teacher in this State. We may be lucky to get back out the money we put in - yes, we fund 50% of the pension plan.

Anyway, please remember that teachers ARE taxpayers too! And we don't enjoy the rise in taxes either. Teachers are hired to do a job, just like everyone else. They get paid for the work they do, it is not welfare.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

Just remember that if those kids are in your Civil War reenactments, it is probably because they are already interested and want to participate, not always so in the public classroom. I wasn't pointing you out in particular, just repsonding to some of your statements. I never belonged to the NEA, but belonged to the smaller state teachers' organization which was much more conservative. I never believed in a lot of the stuff promoted by the NEA and neither did my state teachers' organization. Our organization mostly worked at the state level to lobby. They never got involved on the local level, except when a teacher was either accused of wrong doing or was being harrassed by administration. Believe me administrative harrassment was a lot more common than any accusations of wrong doing concerning a teacher.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/analyzing-the-myths-about-teacher-salaries.html


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> My teachers didnt seem to have the least problem with that.... and there were 45 of us. We came to class, took our seats, roll was called and we got down to business. Our teachers were apparently smarter than the kids and simply did not tolerate the nonsense. We stayed focused.... or else! :shrug:


Yes, that was then and this is now. I was in education for over twenty years so I guess I was smart enough to deal with students, I am just wondering how many of you naysayers could take it now. When I went to school, if I got in trouble on the bus or at school it was my responsibility and I got in trouble at home. That is not the case with the majority of students anymore, it is usually someone else's fault, probably that rotten teacher. Your language betrays your predjuice. Teachers were people back then, just as they are people now. There were good ones and bad ones, as in any occupation. Years ago, teachers had the support of parents and administration. Students knew if they crossed the line, they would be in trouble. This is no longer the case. Of course, I am beating my head against a stone wall here, I am sure someone can come up with what they think is another brilliant degrading remark. Wow, I wonder who the smart teacher was that taught you that skill.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

GrannyCarol said:


> Ok, I didn't read all of this thread, but there is one thing I see over and over - taxpayers being irate at teacher salaries and benefits. My husband is a teacher and I haven't noticed that we aren't also taxpayers! Seems to me that we pay a load of taxes, just like everyone else. Seems to me that my husband went to college and got the credentials needed to teach and that the impression of it being basically a stressful and thankless job has some merit to it. Also, he is expected to babysit kids, has to deal with parents that want him OUT because their precious kid flunked a test they wouldn't study for or the parent would rather listen to a kid lie than ask the teacher what really happened, or a teenage girl has a bad day and blames the teacher.
> 
> In our state there's been no COLA for years, even though the voters asked for it. Now there is a decrease in income. Insurance payments have gone up almost as much as the so called COLAs for decades. "We're giving you a $100 raise a month, oh, btw, we're taking $90 of that for your insurance."
> 
> ...


No one is claiming it's welfare and I have no problem with teachers being paid to do their job. But therein lies part of the problem.. We now pay more per student then ever before and yet we have higher fail rates.

So someone isn't doing their job, yet everyone who works in the education system seems to be getting raises...

Why is that?

Taxes go up and while those in the education system get pay raises the rest of us have to take pay cuts and lose of benefits to keep our jobs in this down economy... So while you are paying taxes, you also are enjoying and increase in pay.. Most of us don't get to enjoy that increase, in fact have taken a decrease which creates a bigger burden on taxpayers other then Government employees.

Why is that?


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

linn said:


> Just remember that if those kids are in your Civil War reenactments, it is probably because they are already interested and want to participate, not always so in the public classroom. I wasn't pointing you out in particular, just repsonding to some of your statements. I never belonged to the NEA, but belonged to the smaller state teachers' organization which was much more conservative. I never believed in a lot of the stuff promoted by the NEA and neither did my state teachers' organization. Our organization mostly worked at the state level to lobby. They never got involved on the local level, except when a teacher was either accused of wrong doing or was being harrassed by administration. Believe me administrative harrassment was a lot more common than any accusations of wrong doing concerning a teacher.
> 
> http://www.buzzle.com/articles/analyzing-the-myths-about-teacher-salaries.html



While you are correct about the kids that I see wanting to be there, you missed the point about being invited to the schools...

IF I hated teachers and was that bitter with them we wouldn't be invited.

A lot of my fellow reenactors are also teachers, from K through Temple Univ. Professor etc... Those are just the ones I know....

Here in PA teachers are Union..


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

Percentage of persons 14 years old and over who were illiterate (unable to read or write in any language), by race and nativity: 1870 to 1979. Looks like there has been an improvement to me.

http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

linn said:


> Percentage of persons 14 years old and over who were illiterate (unable to read or write in any language), by race and nativity: 1870 to 1979. Looks like there has been an improvement to me.
> 
> http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp


While that may be true on a national level, it isn't necessarily true on a State level..


"According to the Alliance for Excellent Education, the cost to colleges for remediation in the Keystone State is estimated to be about $153 million annually."
https://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/research/detail/the-cost-of-pennsylvanias-education-failures

So we have to have remediation classes to bring them up to a level to enter college.. That tells me that something is wrong with the system and those involved in the system shouldn't be getting raises and taxes shouldn't be raised again, since that has been done many times over at least the last 40 years and it still hasn't solved the problem.



"In the 2009-2010 school year, only 32 percent of students were proficient in reading and 38 percent proficient in math on the Pennsylvania System of School Assessment (PSSA).

In the worst 30 schools, only 21 percent of students were proficient in reading, while barely 18 percent were proficient in math.
Students in Philadelphia's William L. Sayre Middle School scored the lowest, with only 13 percent proficient in reading, and 8 percent proficient in math.
The PSSA itself is a low standard-some 80 percent more students reach proficiency on the PSSA than the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP)."

http://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/research/detail/pennsylvanias-failing-violent-schools

So where is all the tax dollars going?

Need I say more?


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

Why don't you ask the politicians? I have been wondering where all that bail-out money has gone for quite a while. I am not trying to sound racist, but the charts and graphs I studied showed that Hispanics and other minorities had the highest rate of no high school diploma. I believe that is what is bringing down our local and national average. Total fall enrollment in degree-granting institutions has also increased.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=98


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

linn said:


> Percentage of persons 14 years old and over who were illiterate (unable to read or write in any language), by race and nativity: 1870 to 1979. Looks like there has been an improvement to me.
> 
> http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp


At first glance it does appear that we have had some improvement.... however...

When we look at the substance involved these numbers have little to do with the quality of education our students actually get, but rather the number of students who are being educated... even if only at the very lowest levels. Yes, we have a higher percentage of adults who can read than ever before... but at what level can they read? Perhaps you know of some work that has been done that relates to the overall level of education of students who graduate today compared to that of students who graduated in the mid 20th century, or at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century. There is much more to the equation than just the numbers of students who are attending school.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

linn said:


> Why don't you ask the politicians? I have been wondering where all that bail-out money has gone for quite a while. I am not trying to sound racist, but the charts and graphs I studied showed that Hispanics and other minorities had the highest rate of no high school diploma. I believe that is what is bringing down our local and national average. Total fall enrollment in degree-granting institutions has also increased.
> 
> http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=98


I have been for a long time.. But of course since most State politicians in PA get money from the NEA, my voice isn't heard...

As of today Mike Veon who was one of the most powerful politicians in PA (until 2006) just got convicted a 2nd time.. He is already serving 6 to 14 years for his corruption..

So the process is a long term thing and wont' be changed overnight, no matter how loud I get.. But that doesn't stop me from voicing my opinion.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

I guess it is just like the national level, until enough people vote them out of office the DRS will be a fixture.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

> Originally Posted by Madame
> Last year I heard again and again about us rotten teachers and how we were getting big fat pensions at the expense of the taxpayers.
> 
> I did some research this week. My big, fat pension will be $343 a month.
> ...






Haven said:


> How many years did you work as a teacher? Public or private school?
> 
> My mother retired from teaching public school and still gets 81% of her working income; that is 4k per month.


I was hoping for an answer. I guess this was just a hit-and-run.


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## DAVID In Wisconsin (Dec 3, 2002)

Haven, read through all of the posts. She said she had mis-figured her retirement and it would actually be higher than she originally said. She also has been an employee for only 7 years.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

linn said:


> Yes, that was then and this is now. I was in education for over twenty years so I guess I was smart enough to deal with students, I am just wondering how many of you naysayers could take it now. When I went to school, if I got in trouble on the bus or at school it was my responsibility and I got in trouble at home. That is not the case with the majority of students anymore, it is usually someone else's fault, probably that rotten teacher. Your language betrays your predjuice. Teachers were people back then, just as they are people now. There were good ones and bad ones, as in any occupation. Years ago, teachers had the support of parents and administration. Students knew if they crossed the line, they would be in trouble. This is no longer the case. Of course, I am beating my head against a stone wall here, I am sure someone can come up with what they think is another brilliant degrading remark. Wow, I wonder who the smart teacher was that taught you that skill.


I dont recall making any degrading remarks.... not sure just what you think you read that was degrading. Saying an apple is an apple is NOT degrading... its just calling it by its proper name. :shrug:


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