# Spike Collars: Do They Work?



## lockhart76

CAUTION: SOAPBOX APPROACHING =)

A resounding yes. As a background I live in Northern Saskatchewan and run over 1000 ewes in paddocks with brush. We have incredible coyote pressure and I am not describing the 30 pounders from down south. Some of the yotes here top 45+ lbs. They also run in packs. We are near a Forestry management zone that is tens of thousands of acres with no people or roads. It is wilderness. From there we see wolves (in packs of over ten at times. and these are Canadian Timber wolves, not their smaller american cousins), bears, and cougars. A cougar shot by our farm recently was over 11ft from nose to tail. A neighbour lost a 1800lb bull to a cat that dropped on it from above and chewed a soccer ball size of meat out of the back of its neck. In two months we lost an 85lb Maremma- her throat was ripped out- and a 115lb Anatolain Shepherd (Molly and Abbey bless their hearts). Another Anatolian Shepherd encountered a pack of coyotes and was found in a slough trying to die. She had over 35 punctures and lacerations, all on her neck and throat. She recovered with vet care, antibiotics, and painkillers. Out here, your llama is dead. Your donkey is dead. Your border collieXpyrenees is dead. Sometimes even your LGD is dead. Dogs are the only thing you can hope to use with any effectiveness. We cannot (nor do we hope to) eradicate the bears, wolves, and coyotes. However, with the decline in the fur trade and several mild winters these species have exploded and the predation pressure is something we have to be aware of. We run eight dogs. Pyrennes, Maremmas, Anatolians, Kangals and crosses. When the two dogs died we lost 14 lambs in 10 days. A move to a smaller paddock and two more dogs and the losses stopped. 

It appears this post digressed into a tirade for the effectiveness of LGD. Well, it is. If you have stock and they are dying and you don't have dogs I have very little sympathy for you. A neighbour lost 35 lambs. That is worth $7000 right now. He has no dogs and had to think very hard before spending 250$ on a LGD pup. He is a fool. Our job is to care for our livestock-sheep, cattle, goats, chickens, etc. Dealing with predation is par for the course. If you aren't willng to devote time, energy, and yes, even money to protecting your livestock, then maybe you shouldn't have them.

However, to return to the main thrust of this post. I know, verifiably, that a spike collar would have helped, if not saved two of our dogs. I have spoken at length to the Predation control specialist and he affirms that coyotes and wolves kill very frequently by slashing the throat/neck/spine when encountering other predators. He hunts wolves, cats, coyotes for the government year round. It is his job. He shot or snared over 500 coyotes and 150+ wolves last year alone. I feel he knows what he is talking about. Many will jump on this thread and claim otherwise. What I know is this: 

-1. LGDs are the best way to protect livestock from predators. Period.
-2. As a valuable assest our LGDs need any assistance we can provide. I know that there are times when a spike collar will aid them in their work. For the $45 a spike collar costs, am I going to begrudge my 500 or $1000 teammate this aid? No. If you are then you must view your LGDs differently than I do. A spike collar is not a fix all. However, it will help some dogs, some of the time. And for this reason I am happy to invest in both the collar and the dog. =)

No, I am not sponsored by Coban Collars. lol. However, we do use them and appreciate their attention to quality and craftmanship. If you try them I am sure you will as well. +)


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## pancho

You might think about talking to some more predation control specialist. Wolves, coyotes, or any other type of canine do not do much slashing. That is usually saved for the stories, sounds good to say slashing. In reality there isn't any slashing. They may tear the throat out but their catch and kill method is to latch on and pull down an animal. Many times they will be eating the animal before it hits the ground and dies, especially when they are in a pack. Slashing is not part of their attack.

I have seen several dogs killed while wearing spiked collars. Some times they do more damage to themselves with the spikes than they do the attacking animal. Spike collars seem to impress people much more than attacking animals. Predators do not live long unless they are smart. Ifa predator ever grabbed a spike collar they will turn loose of it and grab onto something that is part of the animal they are attacking. If your life depends on killing and eating other animals you soon learn it is a waste to bite and hold on to something that is not part of the animal.

I have seen many different types of spike collars. Some are so large the animal wearing them has a hard time turning their head. Some have spikes so long they intefere in the movement of the animal. Some are smaller, looks good, and impress people.
Somehow predators do not share the same view.


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## Fowler

I also like to add that the coyotes *down south* are 45-60 lbs. I've seen them with my own eyes and they have carried a 60 lb lamb over a 5ft cattle panel fence. I just wanted that clarified in my southern area......LOL 

And I now have 2 Maremma's and sleep with one eye open and a shotgun.

And yes, I have put some thought into protecting my dogs. Just havent decided on which collar to use. I've been watching them pig hunting shows and I really like the collars they use on their dogs.


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## wendle

Good post OP. Interesting it seems that people don't want to break down and buy a lgd because of the work involved, and/or having to take care of a dog. Those same people end up scrambling to find a dog when a coyote or wolf finds their flock. I've seen it happen to those without any predator control, and those with llamas, donkeys, and horses. I am one of them. 
So far I haven't had the best of luck with collars and lgds though. Mine seems to lose them. I have quite a bit of bushes and thick woods on my farm.


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## Goatress

pancho said:


> You might think about talking to some more predation control specialist. Wolves, coyotes, or any other type of canine do not do much slashing. That is usually saved for the stories, sounds good to say slashing. In reality there isn't any slashing. They may tear the throat out but their catch and kill method is to latch on and pull down an animal. Many times they will be eating the animal before it hits the ground and dies, especially when they are in a pack. Slashing is not part of their attack.
> 
> I have seen several dogs killed while wearing spiked collars. Some times they do more damage to themselves with the spikes than they do the attacking animal. Spike collars seem to impress people much more than attacking animals. Predators do not live long unless they are smart. Ifa predator ever grabbed a spike collar they will turn loose of it and grab onto something that is part of the animal they are attacking. If your life depends on killing and eating other animals you soon learn it is a waste to bite and hold on to something that is not part of the animal.
> 
> I have seen many different types of spike collars. Some are so large the animal wearing them has a hard time turning their head. Some have spikes so long they intefere in the movement of the animal. Some are smaller, looks good, and impress people.
> Somehow predators do not share the same view.


Pancho, so many times dogs wearing the spiked collars are out there alone with no back up. They are doomed from the start. Until guys start waking up and realizing today ain't like grandpa's day, you can't get away in wolf country with running only two dogs. You need a pack of mature dogs. Guys tossing 6 mo old pups out there and then acting shocked when they are killed. Oh please. What has happened to common sense. I got contacted by people in ID with wolves breathing down their neck don't want to bring stock in at night, have one lone dog out there holding down the fort, won't buy more than a single pup....I sent them packing....they don't get it, don't want to get it...probably should not be running sheep to begin with....no common sense at all.... With no offense meant to anyone 'new' to ag with no previous background in it, there is a whole world of people out there who have never been around predators, and barely are started in livestock, who don't realize what can happen to their herds/flocks come winter time, and bears, lion, coyotes, etc. get hungry.... Its these people who are most vulnerable....because they just don't know. Most are eager to learn but then you have those that think they know it all or don't care or are so clueless...they watch their herd get wiped out and say, oh gee....how did that happen.... So much of the burden on keeping our stock and dogs safe is on US. 

Dogs learn how to use and wear collars. Or let me rephrase that, responsible owners will start them out as pups in training collars and gradually put them into grown up collars, so they learn how to use them, sleep in them, etc.

Collar or no if you are only running three dogs and a wolf pack descends on them they are toast. People need to run more dogs in heavy predator load areas, that is in combination with backing them up with guns, daily checks on stock, fladry, all you can do.... Not enough people seem to want to do any work. They toss dogs out and think its instant fix. It never has been and never will be. Running LGD's right takes 110% commitment, time and work. But then that goes for all livestock, doesn't it????


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## pancho

Goatress said:


> Pancho, so many times dogs wearing the spiked collars are out there alone with no back up. They are doomed from the start. Until guys start waking up and realizing today ain't like grandpa's day, you can't get away in wolf country with running only two dogs. You need a pack of mature dogs. Guys tossing 6 mo old pups out there and then acting shocked when they are killed. Oh please. What has happened to common sense. I got contacted by people in ID with wolves breathing down their neck don't want to bring stock in at night, have one lone dog out there holding down the fort, won't buy more than a single pup....I sent them packing....they don't get it, don't want to get it...probably should not be running sheep to begin with....no common sense at all.... With no offense meant to anyone 'new' to ag with no previous background in it, there is a whole world of people out there who have never been around predators, and barely are started in livestock, who don't realize what can happen to their herds/flocks come winter time, and bears, lion, coyotes, etc. get hungry.... Its these people who are most vulnerable....because they just don't know. Most are eager to learn but then you have those that think they know it all or don't care or are so clueless...they watch their herd get wiped out and say, oh gee....how did that happen.... So much of the burden on keeping our stock and dogs safe is on US.
> 
> Dogs learn how to use and wear collars. Or let me rephrase that, responsible owners will start them out as pups in training collars and gradually put them into grown up collars, so they learn how to use them, sleep in them, etc.
> 
> Collar or no if you are only running three dogs and a wolf pack descends on them they are toast. People need to run more dogs in heavy predator load areas, that is in combination with backing them up with guns, daily checks on stock, fladry, all you can do.... Not enough people seem to want to do any work. They toss dogs out and think its instant fix. It never has been and never will be. Running LGD's right takes 110% commitment, time and work. But then that goes for all livestock, doesn't it????


I know what you mean about people expecting a 6 month old pup to be able to handle any predator.
I once sold a grown dog to a man who was having bear problems. He chained the dog where the bears usually made their way to his place. The dog was killed by the first bear coming through. Never would I have thought a person would chain a dog that was supposed to be protecting. The dog never had a chance.

To protect a dog has to be equal to what they are supposed to be protecting against. A single dog of mine was very capable of taking care of a single wolf. A pair would handle several. If there is a pack of wolves people should answer with a pack of their own.

Just my opinion but I think the quality of the dog matters more than what the dog is wearing. I have seen dogs wearing cut vests that were killed while another dog wearing nothing did the job. If people are serious about protecting they should first start with a quality dog and then invest in training that quality dog. Too many times people start with less than quality dog and do not train. That is a recipe for disaster.


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## Fowler

I was thinking something like this.
And I will tell you why. I dont want my sheep hurt on the spike collars, but I do want the protection for my boys neck.

What would be the pros and cons of this type of collar?


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## pancho

Fowler said:


> I was thinking something like this.
> And I will tell you why. I dont want my sheep hurt on the spike collars, but I do want the protection for my boys neck.
> 
> What would be the pros and cons of this type of collar?


Just from the looks mobility would be a problem. Much like any type of protection collar.
Looks like the dog would have problems with countering anything getting into his chest or stifle, even the front legs would be hard to protect.

Just my opinion coming from experience with game dogs. Looks like something a person without actual experience would think might protect a dog.

While the throat is a place needing protection, the dogs have learned how to do this. More dogs are killed from wounds to other parts of the body than the throat. Take the legs out from under a dog and it is finished. Take the chest out of a dog and they are finished. Take the stomach out of the dog and it is finished. Take the rear end out of a dog and it is finished.
Too many people think the throat is the only spot where deadly damage can be done. They are very wrong.


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## Goatress

Pancho I agree - wolves are known to 'gut out' dogs - the stomach is so vulnerable....at one point...I was looking at some hog dog websites and marveling over the kevlar protection vests and loin 'girders' or what ever they are called, wondering if they would be an option for LGDs battling constant wolf attack on their herd/flock. Again for me, it comes down to numbers. If you are running a large pack, a wolf pack may (or may not) be more leery of trying to attack those dogs' herd. I am certain that a large pack of dogs would definitely deter smaller predators such as coyotes, foxes, etc.

Speaking of wolves, although we've had them in N. Nevada for years, they are being seen more. My theory is the 'mega wolves' (Canadian crossbred grays) from the north are pushing the 'locals' and smaller gray wolves down here. Meeting with my stockbroker today who's an old Basque guy plugged in with all the local ranchers, he told me one was killed in the Mts just West of Winnemucca a year and a half ago, and right now, there is a reddish colored wolf running in the fields of Winnemucca Farms, a huge potato growing outfit, just north of town..its been seen by many, they know it is not a coyote. Of course wolves rarely stay solo for long, I'm sure this one will bring in or find a mate soon enough.


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## thaiblue12

I doubt a spiked collar is going to save my dog, I do however worry that it will in fact kill my dog by strangulation. 
They wear their rabies tag, microchip tag on collars with a plastic snap together clasp. Twice one dog has nearly strangled himself when a coyote is on the other side of the cattle panels, the collar broke each time. 
I know if it is one of one my dogs will win, if it is an entire pack I doubt a collar will save them. There are so many ways and areas to bite to cause damage and death if an entire pack desends on a dog, not just the neck. Big cats are more prone to grabbing the neck and suffocating or tearing then a coyote or wolf is. 

Fowler that looks like it restricts their neck from moving well. Looks more like a better designed e-collar. Plus the poor thing is also chained on top of having to wear that collar.


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## pancho

My choice of collars would be none of the above. When I was doing predator and feral animal control I had nylon collars with a small bell on each dog. The only reason for the collar was to lead the dogs into the area I was going to release them and to hold the bell. The dogs did not make any noise when they made a kill and the animal they killed didn't usually have time to make a noise. I was usually able to hear the bell when they shook out their hold on the animal.


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## Pops2

pancho said:


> Just from the looks mobility would be a problem. Much like any type of protection collar.
> Looks like the dog would have problems with countering anything getting into his chest or stifle, even the front legs would be hard to protect.
> 
> Just my opinion coming from experience with game dogs. *Looks like something a person without actual experience would think might protect a dog.*
> 
> While the throat is a place needing protection, the dogs have learned how to do this. More dogs are killed from wounds to other parts of the body than the throat. Take the legs out from under a dog and it is finished. Take the chest out of a dog and they are finished. Take the stomach out of the dog and it is finished. Take the rear end out of a dog and it is finished.
> Too many people think the throat is the only spot where deadly damage can be done. They are very wrong.


you'd be wrong. they work very well for their INTENDED purpose, which is stopping hogs' cutters. like anything they're not perfect, nothing ever will be.

as for spiked collars, if they didn't HELP the dogs survive they wouldn't have remained in use for over 5,000 years. kind of the reason Marines still carry fighting knives, because when you actually use them they work.
ETA spiked collars are as old as metallurgy, the first ones used copper, then bronze but pretty much stopped at iron. steel was never largely used. but also understand that when iron spikes were first introduced iron was EXTREMELY valuable, akin to making them from titanium or tungsten carbide today. the investment in such expensive gear would not have been likely if the prvious copper & bronze spiked collars hadn't been effective in the first place.


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## Pops2

pancho said:


> I know what you mean about people expecting a 6 month old pup to be able to handle any predator.
> I once sold a grown dog to a man who was having bear problems. He chained the dog where the bears usually made their way to his place. The dog was killed by the first bear coming through. Never would I have thought a person would chain a dog that was supposed to be protecting. The dog never had a chance.
> 
> To protect a dog has to be equal to what they are supposed to be protecting against. A single dog of mine was very capable of taking care of a single wolf. A pair would handle several. If there is a pack of wolves people should answer with a pack of their own.
> 
> *Just my opinion but I think the quality of the dog matters more than what the dog is wearing.* I have seen dogs wearing cut vests that were killed while another dog wearing nothing did the job. If people are serious about protecting they should first start with a quality dog and then invest in training that quality dog. Too many times people start with less than quality dog and do not train. That is a recipe for disaster.


this 100%
BUT you still do everything you can to improve their odds of survival.

as for wolves vs LGDs, it depends on the wolves & the dogs involved. historically LGDs have only been used against small & medium wolves. Roosevelt shares some anecdotes from his ranching days of a newfoundland dog killing wolves while another neighboring ranch had BOTH english mastiffs killed in a single fight w/ a "large prairie wolf." important points to consider, the english mastiff of the period was in decline and would be revived by the use of bullmastiffs AND prairie wolves WERE a medium sized subspecies that topped out in the 90# range. what is important about these anecdotes is that it points out their are no absolutes about which dogs can kill which wolves. the question now is whether technology will help LGDs to be effective against the large canadian greys.


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## Pops2

Goatress said:


> Pancho I agree - wolves are known to 'gut out' dogs - the stomach is so vulnerable....at one point...I was looking at some hog dog websites and marveling over the kevlar protection vests and loin 'girders' or what ever they are called, wondering if they would be an option for LGDs battling constant wolf attack on their herd/flock. Again for me, it comes down to numbers. If you are running a large pack, a wolf pack may (or may not) be more leery of trying to attack those dogs' herd. I am certain that a large pack of dogs would definitely deter smaller predators such as coyotes, foxes, etc.
> 
> Speaking of wolves, although we've had them in N. Nevada for years, they are being seen more. My theory is the 'mega wolves' (Canadian crossbred grays) from the north are pushing the 'locals' and smaller gray wolves down here. Meeting with my stockbroker today who's an old Basque guy plugged in with all the local ranchers, he told me one was killed in the Mts just West of Winnemucca a year and a half ago, and right now, there is a reddish colored wolf running in the fields of Winnemucca Farms, a huge potato growing outfit, just north of town..its been seen by many, they know it is not a coyote. Of course wolves rarely stay solo for long, I'm sure this one will bring in or find a mate soon enough.


the more effective the cutvests are at protecting the more they interfere w/ mobility & agility. also they represent a HUGE threat of overheating even in winter.


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## wendle

Fowler said:


> I was thinking something like this.
> And I will tell you why. I dont want my sheep hurt on the spike collars, but I do want the protection for my boys neck.
> 
> What would be the pros and cons of this type of collar?


I would wonder what effect it will have on the fur(especially on long coated dogs) matting, and air getting to the skin. When it rains, will water be trapped under it? Will it cause hot spots leading to fly strike? I don't like the chain on the dog either.


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## Pops2

wendle said:


> I would wonder what effect it will have on the fur(especially on long coated dogs) matting, and air getting to the skin. When it rains, will water be trapped under it? Will it cause hot spots leading to fly strike? *I don't like the chain on the dog either*.


then don't buy a dog from this guy or go hunting w/ him. if you get the chance tell him, i'm sure he'll be emotionally devastated.
ETA you're spot on about the collar. it is NOT designed to be used for extended wear. it is used during the hunt & then taken off.


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## pancho

Pops2 said:


> you'd be wrong. they work very well for their INTENDED purpose, which is stopping hogs' cutters. like anything they're not perfect, nothing ever will be.
> 
> as for spiked collars, if they didn't HELP the dogs survive they wouldn't have remained in use for over 5,000 years. kind of the reason Marines still carry fighting knives, because when you actually use them they work.
> ETA spiked collars are as old as metallurgy, the first ones used copper, then bronze but pretty much stopped at iron. steel was never largely used. but also understand that when iron spikes were first introduced iron was EXTREMELY valuable, akin to making them from titanium or tungsten carbide today. the investment in such expensive gear would not have been likely if the prvious copper & bronze spiked collars hadn't been effective in the first place.


Pops2, I have read your posts before. You have experience and knowledge.

Most of the dogs I have seen cut by hogs were not cut in the throat area. Most were in the chest and stomach area. At least on the dogs I owned the throat was really never in a place the hog could get to. Their teeth were usually in the hog making the throat one of the last places the hog could get to. A cut vest would be a much better item to buy than this collar if a person was worried about their dog getting cut by hogs.

Back before I gave away all of my dog stuff I had pictures of spike collars used down through history and descriptions of those used before there were pictures. The majority did more damage to the dog wearing them than it did to anything attacking the dog. They do impress people. Most of the people who are impressed never actually wirnessed a fight between dogs or a dog and large animals. For many years that was my business. I was well known across the U.S. and in many foreign countries for this. When it comes to a fight, no collar is much better than any type of collar.


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## pancho

wendle said:


> I would wonder what effect it will have on the fur(especially on long coated dogs) matting, and air getting to the skin. When it rains, will water be trapped under it? Will it cause hot spots leading to fly strike? I don't like the chain on the dog either.


I will agree on the chain. It is much too small. Maybe for a very small dog such as a dashund it might be alright. The collar it is attached to is also very light weight. The whole setup looks cheap except for the cut collar. Looks like, again, the collar is to impress people. You can be sure the chain and collar would not impress anyone who is knowledgeable about dogs.

In history the spike collar was used on war dogs also. These are dogs that were sent to attack humans. I would imagine the spike collar would be very effective for that purpose. Just looking at a large dog with large spikes around his neck looking for you might make a person rethink their original idea.

This has been debated on here before. Some of the same people posted before but had different ideas. Could someone tell me why they had a change of heart?


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## Pops2

IME the single most common reason for hogs cutting up dogs is that people run too many bayers & they get in each others way. neck hits are more of an issue for baydogs than catchdogs, especially the ones that relly bring the heat on a bad hog. loose bayers (like most hounds) that will work a whole herd alone don't need them & hardly ever get hit. catch dogs are usually out of the way of the cutters. the cut collar is the only protection that doesn't have significant (life threatening) drawbacks.

we don't know why the dog is on the chain, i'm guessing just for the pic. if it is a permanent tie down then i agree it is too light, but the dog may be better on a tie down than mine have been. i just don't know and will reserve judgement until i do know more.


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## Chief Cook

That collar looks like something a hog hunter would use on some of his dogs. They only wear it for the hunt, not all the time. I had one just a little bit bigger than that to keep a hound from bothering his stitches. It worked for a little while, hounds can be very determined! What do the people that run sheep in Europe do for their dogs? They have been fighting with wolves and bears for what centuries. Anyway, I wish you well with your predator control problems.


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## JasoninMN

You can put what ever collar you want on a dog but if you are not running enough dogs the dogs are dead. One on one, a dog, and I don't care what breed you go with, does not stand much chance against an adult wolf. Sure some 180 pound dog may get lucky one time and scare off a much smaller wolf but its luck will run out. Ideally you would need two or more dogs per wolf and take into consideration the average wolf pack is 6-7 wolves. There is a reason people don't run LGD here, they feed the wolves so your better off investing in fencing. Now if people ran ENOUGH dogs that may change the tables. However, most farms and ranches can't afford the number of dogs they would need to be effective or they just won't invest in them. Buy as many dogs as you can and cross your fingers because you will still loose some to wolves. Wolves will go out of their way to eliminate a dog in their territory, your pack better be a lot bigger to keep them moving on. Good luck!


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## pancho

JasoninMN said:


> You can put what ever collar you want on a dog but if you are not running enough dogs the dogs are dead. One on one, a dog, and I don't care what breed you go with, does not stand much chance against an adult wolf. Sure some 180 pound dog may get lucky one time and scare off a much smaller wolf but its luck will run out. Ideally you would need two or more dogs per wolf and take into consideration the average wolf pack is 6-7 wolves. There is a reason people don't run LGD here, they feed the wolves. Your better off investing in fencing. Now if people ran ENOUGH dogs that may change the tables. However, most farms ranches can't afford the number of dogs they would need to be effective or just won't invest in them. Buy as many dogs as you can and cross your fingers because you will still loose some to wolves. Wolves will go out of their way to eliminate a dog in their territory, your pack better be a lot bigger to keep them moving one. Good luck!


Check a few breeds. There are several that can take on a wolf one on one and come out winning. Some breeds that can successfully take on a wolf do not make the best LGD though.


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## wendle

I know people who have sheep in Minnesota and other wolf areas and they only run a few lgds with good results. Depending on the flock size they will run at least 2 and maybe a few more. They tend to be a little more aggressive than some lgds too. The flock sizes range from under 40 to 400 plus. 

About the chain, I am a little more concerned with something that might not slip off or break if the dog gets tangled. Some dog collars, like the ones with a circle in the middle for hunting dogs are made to roll off the dog if he gets caught in something. A chain on the dog with the collar, and/or dragging something can also be dangerous. Sadly I lost a dog who had a plain buckle collar and was dragging a tire. She wrapped herself around some brush and somehow got it tight enough to cut off her air.


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## wendle

double post


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## JasoninMN

pancho said:


> Check a few breeds. There are several that can take on a wolf one on one and come out winning. Some breeds that can successfully take on a wolf do not make the best LGD though.


please show me a documented case of this happening in America in the wild.


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## pancho

JasoninMN said:


> please show me a documented case of this happening in America in the wild.


There have even been matches between wolves and dogs. Nothing new.
I am not talking about the normal LGD or even any of the LGD breeds. There are some breeds bred just for fighting. Most can easily take a wolf.


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## JasoninMN

pancho said:


> There have even been matches between wolves and dogs. Nothing new.
> I am not talking about the normal LGD or even any of the LGD breeds. There are some breeds bred just for fighting. Most can easily take a wolf.


exactly, its all hear say. There isn't any breed that "easily" takes down a wolf int he wild.


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## pancho

JasoninMN said:


> exactly, its all hear say. There isn't any breed that "easily" takes down a wolf int he wild.


No, it is dog fighting history. It wasn't that long ago that dog fighting was legal. It was sanctioned by the UKC. Records were kept and championships were given. Wolf and dog matches were not common as the dog usually won so there wasn't any money to be made but there were those who actually believed a wolf could take a dog. There was always someone that would gladly seperate them from their money.

In the wild a wolf will not stay around when it begins to loose. Even in captivity they will always choose to run when it gets rough. When a wolf is winning they will stay until they kill the dog. You will notice that there are dogs that survive a wolf attack. They do not survive by out running the wolf. They do not survive because the wolf has a change of heart. If a dog survives a wolf attack it is because he made it rough enough on the and the wolf ran. It isn't unusual.


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## JasoninMN

Well us that liven in wolf country must just be too ignorant to find one of these wolf killing dogs. I hope you are not trying to tell me a 40 pound game dog is going to kill a wolf. I love game dogs but I am not that ignorant. Even the dogs that are and were being developed to protect against wolves rarely over come them. A 150 pound kangal has a far better chance of surviving then a game pitbull. I think your basing your assumptions on your experiences with coyote control and pit fighting. Even in a field the kangal would probably kill the game pit as well. Heck large sled dogs have been known to kill game bulldogs with a few shakes. Pits are not invincible and wolves do not fight like dogs. 99% of dogs are head dogs and attacking the head is not going to kill a wolf in fact its probably what will get it killed. Dogs are dead before gameness becomes a factor. Also wolves do not turn tail at the first sign of distress like game dog breeders tend to believe. The only dogs I know who have survived wolf attacks are the ones the owners saved during the attack. Hey ridge-backs kill lions too though!

To try to keep post on topic. If your running LGD's in wolf country you need a lot of them plain and simple. Spiked collars may be worth the investment. Run more aggressive and larger breeds then GP and double up the dogs per wolf. Of course never listen to the people who live smack dab in wolfville. When lone grey wolves in Idaho are taking out 2-3 LGD's at a time you probably need more then a few LGD's. I have seen just about every size of dog there is get killed by wolves around here including pits, mastiffs, st bernards and even my neighbors Irish wolfhounds.


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## Pops2

pancho said:


> Check a few breeds. There are several that can take on a wolf one on one and come out winning. Some breeds that can successfully take on a wolf do not make the best LGD though.


that's not the whole story though. all matches between wolf & dog occured against small & medium subspecies/species. not a single match has ever been recorded against the large species/subspecies where a dog of any breed has won. heck roosevelt recorded matching a good bulldog against the much larger eskimo dog, which because of the size difference brought about the quick & violent end of the bulldog w/no serious injury to the sled dog. even today i know of two wolfers whose best stags (90-110#) have made short work of medium sized bulldogs (30-40#). you're basing a sweeping statement on carefully controlled matchings (rather like the lion incident in london in the 1800s). the matching breeds' reputation of invincibility has as much hype behind it as fact.
as for LGDs, there is no historical precedent for their use against the large species/subspecies. in ALL cases of LGD use, the dogs are/were used against small or medium species/subspecies. for example the iberian & appenine wolves of spain, france & italy average 50-75# & only occasionally reach the 90s. the spanish mastiffs are not known for being exceptional killers only average. for all the hype of the caucasian ovtchatkas they have only faced the caspian sea wolf which is another medium sized wolf. and the native wolf the kangals & boz are famous for killing are the small iranian wolf which is typically 35-60# and only rarely hits 75#. the tibetan mastiff faces off against the medium sized hymalayan/tibetan wolf. the central asian breeds like koochee & alabi go up against the smallish medium sized steppe wolf.
likewise the wolfhound used by the irish to kill medium sized irish wolves were well over 100# and NORMALLY used in trios on a single wolf. the dogs the teutonic nobility used to hunt boar, lynx, brown bear & wolf were run in packs of 20-30 on average and as large as 100. even the Pashtun fighting dog (sometimes called bully kutta) is not typically matched against these little wolves.
additionally the small & medium species/subspecies have a less robust build than the large ones. since the small & mediums tend to prey primarily on small game & smaller ungulates they don't need the build of the northern moose killers. likewise do to the smalle size of their prey base they typically have smaller packs (like coyotes) consisting of a breeding pair and their young of the year (so usually less than 10). whereas the far northern wolves tend to heavier bone, larger size and much larger packs of extended family groups & multiple generations (as large as 30 animals). this means that except for the breeding pair the pack members of small & medium species tend to be young, inexperienced and not fully developed. OTH the large species, having multiple generations, means there are several pack members that are fully developed to maximum size and experienced in fighting & killing.
even on paper the match is one sided. 90# gray wolves have recorded bites up to 1500PSI and average 1000-1200. while the most powerful dogs on record only reach about 800 PSI. wolves typically have much larger canines than a similar sized dog. the big canadian greys have a heavy coat of protective fur over a thick bully style hide while the best matching breeds have only the hide and hard flat coats and less bite power w/smaller teeth.
i'll repeat this there is no historical precedent for using LGDs against LARGE wolves. i have to wonder if the samoyed reindeer herders didn't try them at some point & find them not cost effective. they did have full access to the central asian "breeds" for centuries and the caucasian Ovtchartka during the soviet period.
to review, where LGDs have been used effectively against wolves, they are 1 1/2- 2X the size of the wolves and pack numbers at least equal to the wolf packs (but usually larger). so yeah, i am skeptical LGDs will be the quick cure that some people are expecting. the amazing thing is that it is the LGDs' breeders that are least inclined to think the dogs in & of themselves will fix everything.
i do think if the dog owners use current technology to support the dogs, have a strong work ethic that puts them in the field often AND run enough dogs, it will work. the only question is if it will be cost effective.


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## wendle

Here is a link to a sheep farmer who runs lgds in Minnesota. She has Tatras, and it looks like some very nice ones too. Less than 10 miles away from her farm was the largest wolf pack documented in Minnesota. She runs 8 dogs. 
http://www.tamaracksheep.com/
I know a few people who have gotten pups from her. One is just running a single dog along the Wisconsin/Minnesota border(50 head). The other is northern Wisconsin with two dogs(200head).
You don't need double what the wolf count is, and how can you possibly know or keep track of how many wolves there are for sure out there? The numbers are changing regularly. I don't have wolves here, but coyotes, and some have been seen that are quite big. I do see changes in pressure of coyotes around my farm, sometimes they are pushing harder to get to the sheep than other times it seems. I see tracks in the winter cutting through my farm when they know the lgd is penned up closer to the barn. They seem to be always watching. I always wonder if my lgd has ever gotten in a fight with them. I never see any blood on him, and haven't seen him wounded. Just down the road a neighbor almost lost her dog to coyotes. The wounds on him were all along his back. The next town over lost a Mastiff to coyotes(from injuries).


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## wendle

Here is another link to information on lgds. It isn't specific to breeds, location, or predators. 
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1042&context=vpcthirteen


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## JasoninMN

Wendle, I photographed a wolf den all summer long across the road from a dairy farm that also had about 50 head of sheep. They had no losses of livestock and they didn't have LGDs either. What is your point? Not all wolves eat livestock so I wouldn't expect every LGD to have problems with wolves either. As you say you don't have wolves were you live but obviously because you have a few websites in Minnesota with sheep you must know about all them. Hinkley is hardly an area known for wolves and the largest pack was is an unofficial observation which I am sure has not been exaggerated at all. Coyote and wolves are a whole different ball game but hey if people want to run 2 dogs and think they can handle wolves good for them. I hope their dogs never actually meet any wolves since a couple wolves have been known to kill large groups of dogs at a time. 4 wolves killed 11 LGDs out west and you think a couple dogs have a chance, especially Pyrenees or maremmas, good luck. I don't care what breed is being ran they will all get ate or severely injured when they encounter wolves.

Google livestock dogs killed by wolves and see how successful they are. 

Its funny how all the people who claim how effective they are live in areas that don't have wolves.


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## Goatress

wendle said:


> Here is a link to a sheep farmer who runs lgds in Minnesota. She has Tatras, and it looks like some very nice ones too. Less than 10 miles away from her farm was the largest wolf pack documented in Minnesota. She runs 8 dogs.
> http://www.tamaracksheep.com/
> I know a few people who have gotten pups from her. One is just running a single dog along the Wisconsin/Minnesota border(50 head). The other is northern Wisconsin with two dogs(200head).
> You don't need double what the wolf count is, and how can you possibly know or keep track of how many wolves there are for sure out there? The numbers are changing regularly. I don't have wolves here, but coyotes, and some have been seen that are quite big. I do see changes in pressure of coyotes around my farm, sometimes they are pushing harder to get to the sheep than other times it seems. I see tracks in the winter cutting through my farm when they know the lgd is penned up closer to the barn. They seem to be always watching. I always wonder if my lgd has ever gotten in a fight with them. I never see any blood on him, and haven't seen him wounded. Just down the road a neighbor almost lost her dog to coyotes. The wounds on him were all along his back. The next town over lost a Mastiff to coyotes(from injuries).


Actually in some areas they do know how many wolves there are because they are collared and the Feds keep track of them (kind of sickening, really). So some situations they do know, but you are also correct in many, they don't.

The Tamarack breeder you refer to is one of the ones who started crossing Tatras on what she thought was a Spanish Mastiff (it was but it also wasn't -) and I think the third breed she put in there was maremma. Anyhow her SM's are tiny. In Spain there are 'variations' on the breed - even the old time bob tailed ones that some people still try to keep alive. The myth that this gal started however, was so wrong: she claimed the dogs like mine were only show dogs and didn't work - NOT - so wrong. And she put out all this bad info on the breed and unfortunately its taking some time to eradicate the misinformation she and another lady started about SM's. Some of the claims they make are totally wrong. Its also my understanding she no longer owns a purebred Tatra. They are extremely rare here. My Pyr/Tatra girl comes descended from those dogs "the three way cross" she markets (Lovetree is the other one). My girl shows a lot of Tatra. But was out of a huge male Pyr. Good dog, too. 

I just resent the way those two gals really put out a lot of bad info on the SM. They hang out on that other forum the sheep guy has, both Monster Malak and I were treated extremely bad over there, lot of hostility and know it alls..... This board is like night and day... Anyhow. 

According to them, the dogs I have can only be shown and don't work, well, we all know the answer to that one.... I just brought over another from Spain and have one possibly two more over there waiting to get them, they come from the top working breeder of Spanish Mastiffs in Spain, he never shows, runs a ton of sheep.....and they look nothing like these other ladies' 'Spanish Mastiffs'. 

BTW this guy will run at times up to 18-20 dogs he told me. Can't believe the low numbers those people you first reference are running (in dogs that is). Recipe for dead dogs eventually....imho.


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## pancho

JasoninMN said:


> Well us that liven in wolf country must just be too ignorant to find one of these wolf killing dogs. I hope you are not trying to tell me a 40 pound game dog is going to kill a wolf. I love game dogs but I am not that ignorant. Even the dogs that are and were being developed to protect against wolves rarely over come them. A 150 pound kangal has a far better chance of surviving then a game pitbull. I think your basing your assumptions on your experiences with coyote control and pit fighting. Even in a field the kangal would probably kill the game pit as well. Heck large sled dogs have been known to kill game bulldogs with a few shakes. Pits are not invincible and wolves do not fight like dogs. 99% of dogs are head dogs and attacking the head is not going to kill a wolf in fact its probably what will get it killed. Dogs are dead before gameness becomes a factor. Also wolves do not turn tail at the first sign of distress like game dog breeders tend to believe. The only dogs I know who have survived wolf attacks are the ones the owners saved during the attack. Hey ridge-backs kill lions too though!
> 
> To try to keep post on topic. If your running LGD's in wolf country you need a lot of them plain and simple. Spiked collars may be worth the investment. Run more aggressive and larger breeds then GP and double up the dogs per wolf. Of course never listen to the people who live smack dab in wolfville. When lone grey wolves in Idaho are taking out 2-3 LGD's at a time you probably need more then a few LGD's. I have seen just about every size of dog there is get killed by wolves around here including pits, mastiffs, st bernards and even my neighbors Irish wolfhounds.


Again, wolves and dogs have been matched against each other long before either one of us were born. A pit bull would never make a good LGD. They would probably do a lot more damage to what they were supposed to protect than a wolf would.

There isn't that much difference in a wolf's head and a dog's head. What will kill a dog will kill a wolf.

If you think 99% of fighting dogs or pit bulls are head dogs you have a very limited view. Many champion pit dogs were leg dogs, stifle dogs, chest dogs, etc. Some even like to fight from the bottom and willingly take the bottom when in a fight.

I agree, pit bulls are not invincible. They are the best in the world at what they were bred to do. There is no other canine that can match them.

Another bit of mis information. Ridgebacks do not and never have killed lions. They were used to hunt lions but they bayed the lion and depended on the hunter to do the killing. A ridgeback is not even a small threat to a pit bull, much less than a lion.

Please read one of my earlier posts about quality dogs. When a wolf can kill 2-3 dogs you do not have quality dogs. What you have is a common dog. Quality is the word you seem to have a problem understanding. One quality dog is worth more than six common dogs. Of course, those who have never owned a quality dog have no idea what I am talking about.


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## pancho

I think I will bow out of this thread. I thought it was about spiked collars.

My experience is with game dogs. LGD are not game. Wolves are not game.
Even the majority of pit bulls are not game. Non game animals, wild or domestic, will always try to run when they begin to loose. Wild animals run even quicker than domestic animals because even a small injury could cost them their life. That is the reason they are called not game. Many will choose to run even if they are winning.

Everyone that knows anything about dogs know that different breeds have been bred for special purposes. Those breeds that have been bred for hundreds or thousands of years for a certain purpose are naturally better at that job than other types of breeds.
That is the reason for the controlled breedings.

There are sometimes dogs who have incredible noses. As far as breeds go the bloodhound is going to best other types of dogs in scenting abilities.

There are some dogs that are incredible fast. As far as breeds go the greyhound is going to beat other breeds in running abilities.

There are some dogs that have great fighting skills. As far as breeds go the pit bull is going to win over other breeds in a fight.

Some dogs are great at herding. The border collie as a breed is usually far superior to other dogs in herding abilities.

People are free to put their dog to work in just about any job they want them to perform. Their dog might be up to the job. Just because they, most times, are not up to the job chosen by their owners does not mean all dogs will perform as they did.

If you have a specific job get a breed especially bred for the job. If you want a job done well get a quality dog. If you decide any dog can perform any job please do not judge entire breeds by your dogs lack of success.


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## JasoninMN

Pancho I will ask again show my one documented case of a dog killing a wolf in North America. You can't because it hasn't happen. You and I both know that their would be a detail record of events recorded just like every other match between pit bulls. You are blinded by gameness like most pit people are and obviously not speaking from experience outside the dog pit. 



> BTW this guy will run at times up to 18-20 dogs he told me. Can't believe the low numbers those people you first reference are running (in dogs that is). Recipe for dead dogs eventually....imho.


Thank you for being a breeder that actually realize their dogs have limitations and two dogs cannot handle a wolf pack. A friend just lost their 80lb dog a few days ago. The other dog got away while the first was being killed. They have been saying for years there two dogs is all they need and selling pups for wolf control. I am tired of watching people who run a couple dogs tell everyone how successful they are at guarding against wolves. Most people won't buy more then one or two dogs at a time and selling a dog or two for predation control in wolf country is sending it to its death if it ever encounters a wolf attack. The key to success will be numbers in the dog pack!


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## wendle

JasoninMN said:


> Wendle, I photographed a wolf den all summer long across the road from a dairy farm that also had about 50 head of sheep. They had no losses of livestock and they didn't have LGDs either. What is your point? Not all wolves eat livestock so I wouldn't expect every LGD to have problems with wolves either. As you say you don't have wolves were you live but obviously because you have a few websites in Minnesota with sheep you must know about all them. Hinkley is hardly an area known for wolves and the largest pack was is an unofficial observation which I am sure has not been exaggerated at all. Coyote and wolves are a whole different ball game but hey if people want to run 2 dogs and think they can handle wolves good for them. I hope their dogs never actually meet any wolves since a couple wolves have been known to kill large groups of dogs at a time. 4 wolves killed 11 LGDs out west and you think a couple dogs have a chance, especially Pyrenees or maremmas, good luck. I don't care what breed is being ran they will all get ate or severely injured when they encounter wolves.
> 
> Google livestock dogs killed by wolves and see how successful they are.
> 
> Its funny how all the people who claim how effective they are live in areas that don't have wolves.


I noticed the people didn't have twice the amount of lgds as wolves. They were running 8. It did say they had losses in the past when they were running less dogs. It doesn't look like they are wearing any spiked collars either. I think she does have a tracking collar on at least one of them though. I didn't say they were running Pyrenees or Maremmas. 
Just curious how many sheep do you have? How many working lgds have you had?


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## Goatress

JasoninMN said:


> Thank you for being a breeder that actually realize their dogs have limitations and two dogs cannot handle a wolf pack. A friend just lost their 80lb dog a few days ago. The other dog got away while the first was being killed. They have been saying for years there two dogs is all they need and selling pups for wolf control. I am tired of watching people who run a couple dogs tell everyone how successful they are at guarding against wolves. Most people won't buy more then one or two dogs at a time and selling a dog or two for predation control in wolf country is sending it to its death if it ever encounters a wolf attack. The key to success will be numbers in the dog pack!


Remember, Monster Malak and myself are still in testing stage with a lot of these breeds. Sadly although the SM has been around for a long time in this country you don't hear any feedback about the breed vs wolves I assume because, they have not been marketed as wolf deterrents and/or the people who have them in wolf country, have yet to have documentable proof of their failure or success here. Or lets put it this way, if they do, they keep it to themselves. I am giving feedback to my USDA contacts per their request. Thats the only way we will know. Sharing info not hiding it. That is why I am on the mission that I am, to some people's chagrin, to test them and other breeds out here taking a more scientific approach to it, if you can call it that. Same with Pyrenean Mastiffs (who by the way have really got me rethinking their 'teddy bear' personality aspect, my boy Troy will take on anyone, anywhere, anytime, including kangals, my Pyr male, mastines......he will NOT back down...fierce and very bold and confident breed as they mature), and Kangals and Boz.....we can speculate all we want, and those of us who have them, will certainly vouch for their fierceness in combat but....until a few of them meet up with the 170 pd wolves, we can't say for sure...but I sure hold high hopes.

And certainly I think, anyway, not all wolves eat livestock, yes it is very possible to have a group of wolves near you who are still sustaining themselves on game, not lambs. Just pray they don't break the pattern! Once they get an easy kill of a calf or lamb, odds are they'll be back for more.

The 'running enough dogs' problem will not go away because I frankly think some people will never be convinced or understand the benefits. Having said that however it still depends on the quality of dogs, experience and ages, how well it works....do they work well together - another reason why I pack raise pups to sell in hopes it makes a difference and feedback to me 100% has backed up my theory on that; it does make a difference if the pup was raised running with all kinds, all ages, sexes, etc. They've 'seen it all', nothing is a surprise, the play fights (some serious) only add to their experience....they leave my place tougher, more self confident....

I also cringe at breeders out there who will sell just one pup to a guy who really needs three. See I won't, I flat refuse to, and I'm quite honest about it, like it or not..... Not sending my pup to an instant death sentence.

But a lot of breeders don't care, or, don't grasp the harsh reality of what's really needed. 

A lot of ranchers won't dog up because of economics. Yet they shrug when they loose $10,000 in lambs to wolves and reach out for compensation. Sometimes I think the compensation program was the worst thing to come along, it rewards some (not all but certainly some) ranchers for negligence and not running sheep or dogs right.

More shepherding...the right kinds of dogs in right numbers....that is what is needed today...and spiked collars definitely going to be just another slight edge the dog will have to survive. IMHO....


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## Pops2

don't think they will either until the compensation ends or at least falls to a low enough level to make it more cost effective to run enough dogs.
another problem w/ the breeders is that they have bought into the hype about the LGDs being invincible killers.
ETA
there seems to be a problem also of people thinking a wolf is a wolf, when that is just not the case.
for the two or three dog (or 8) is enough folks take a good look at this pic
http://utahwildlife.net/forum/download/file.php?id=20570&mode=view
just so some folks can understand what the dogs are up against, 120# wolf (and 150# wolves have been shot in ID & MT during the hunting seasons) tell me again how a 40-50# game bulldog is going to beat one of these.
http://bowhunting.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Large-wolf.jpg


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## wendle

If I lived in wolf country and had to run 20 livestock guardian dogs to keep my sheep safe, it would not be cost effective. I would have sell my sheep. Even though it's nice to think of so many large guardian dogs running in a pack to protect the flock, in reality the "pack" can become a liability. There have been a few cases of lgds attacking people while they were at work protecting the flock. They are meant to be a deterrent, with their success weighed by lower to no sheep losses, not how many wolves or coyotes they have killed. Not sure how many areas in the US would be friendly to the idea of a pack of 20 or more large aggressive dogs roaming free. As we have seen time and time again with new aggressive dog legislation and breed bans it is always a worry to keep dogs considered for guarding. If lgds were on the breed ban lists many people wouldn't be able to raise sheep.


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## wendle

Here is an interesting link talking about experiences with the lgd and various predators.
http://edgefieldsheep.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3728


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## TriWinkle

Nothing to add, but this has been an interesting thread.


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## BarbadosSheep

wendle said:


> Here is an interesting link talking about experiences with the lgd and various predators.
> http://edgefieldsheep.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3728


excellent link! Thanks!


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## Goatress

wendle said:


> If I lived in wolf country and had to run 20 livestock guardian dogs to keep my sheep safe, it would not be cost effective. I would have sell my sheep. Even though it's nice to think of so many large guardian dogs running in a pack to protect the flock, in reality the "pack" can become a liability. There have been a few cases of lgds attacking people while they were at work protecting the flock. They are meant to be a deterrent, with their success weighed by lower to no sheep losses, not how many wolves or coyotes they have killed. Not sure how many areas in the US would be friendly to the idea of a pack of 20 or more large aggressive dogs roaming free. As we have seen time and time again with new aggressive dog legislation and breed bans it is always a worry to keep dogs considered for guarding. If lgds were on the breed ban lists many people wouldn't be able to raise sheep.


Running dogs in packs should be addressed in another post with all respect due to the OP in this thread on collars.

Bringing this thread back on topic, unless someone has really schooled pups in wearing spiked collars, and observing them learn how to use it and live with it, I'd say, don't be so quick to judge that they don't work. They'll never be the end all, nothing will, but they can help give a dog a second chance. I think that is all lockhart was trying to say in the beginning. For me its still in the testing stage but I believe in it enough to be giving people $50 gift certificates to Coban Collars when they buy a pup from me, if they are in the kind of situation that warrants one....and that's all I will say....


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## Ross

I don't want to hijack the thread either but the points made and obvious questions raised about the suitability of a LGD or rather the "system" where multiple LGDs are needed to get the job done or a reasonable attempt made. The OP is in a situation where a LGD system is a minimum and I agree with the sentiment that a neighbour in that scenario might be remiss for not using them (we don't know details ) but 2 questions come to mind. Should anyone be farming livestock next to thousands of acres of wildlife, and if so are 18- 20 dogs enough for 1000 sheep? Did the OP have more than 3 dogs and what was the remedial action taken when they were taken out? If having none is being negligent than one would hope the OP had more than 3 dogs or brought the sheep into a yard and fed them until replacements were obtained to warrant any soap boxes!! 

I would think in those conditions an active predator reduction plan was being used as well as a LGD deterrent. With that many sheep one might be tempted to have a shepherd with a rifle in the field with them! Perhaps that's cheaper than 20 dogs? Especially since there are LGDs that are lamb killers! You'd save on the natural losses too if they had any sheep skills. 

I'm largely against LGDs on cost and risk alone, but there are places where they shine, the OP has one of those places. All I want is for people to take the task of using guard dogs seriously and consider all their options, costs and responsibilities. I read too many who say "My LGD works and I know because my neighbour doesn't and he loses lambs" Yeah OK but your neighbour's losses are part of your success. Your guard dog could cost you your farm if he attacks a person, you need insurance that covers that, and yeah sometimes the vet is going to pay some of his or her bills with your money. Be ready!

There are no one shot wonder solutions, killing all the yotes isn't going to do it fielding 20 dogs isn't either, and neither is adding on a spiked collar. Every predation problem has to include managing the stock, (with or without LGDs) removing the predators and accepting losses at some point. And yeah its hard shooting a lamb with its guts dragging on the ground or shooting the LGD that's eating a lamb alive. It isn't even fun shooting a coyote. 

It's just part of farming. 

About compensation, I don't know anyone who wouldn't forfeit compensation for a bounty system on coyotes here. I frequently offer to pay costs for the hunting groups here that shoot problem coyotes/coydogs in the local fields. I won't pay for bears, its a sick sheep that can't outpace a fat black bear and thats all we have here if they wander outa the swamp at all.


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## Goatress

Ross, you bring up good points....there are no pat answers for every situation.

Lots of big outfits here run in BLM, forest, big nasty open country....its how its done....and predation is a big 'thang'.

You touched on something though, that needs to be repeated more often: MORE SHEPHERDING...that is, folks...get off the couch, turn the TV off, come out of the coffee shops and get off the computers, and watch over your stock more...back your dogs up....have a presence....it can only help, not hinder.


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## lockhart76

To adress some of the points mentioned above:

With the current prices on commodity crops (canola, barley, wheat, etc) it is a fact that ranchers (ie. grass farmers) will be relegated to marginal land. This land often has brush, sloughs, water potholes, trees, or is near large forestry management zones (if not in them). Farmers can afford to pay more per acre for the quality land than many graziers can hope to generate with stock. Thus, for the forseeable future if I hope to extract my primary (ONLY) income from livestock then I need to accept that I will have to continue ranching in the type of area described above. Running a thousand sheep on pancake flat land with no trees would be a dream for my dogs (and me fencing =) but it is not affordable.
Additionally, I think we have at the very least MODERATE predator pressure. However, our nine dogs handle our thousand ewes with minimal losses. There is no need for the twenty or thirty dogs that some people envision. That is simply not affordable either. Our goal is to make our sheep less appealing in a cost benefit scenario than a deer, rabbit, elk, or even the neighbour's calves. To a wolf or coyote, even in a large pack, they recognize that facing our dogs will result in losses- greater injuries or perhaps even deaths than if they sourced dinner elsewhere. I believe it would be rare for a pack of wolves to confront a group of dogs unless the numbers were immensely in their favor. Yes, ten wolves could easily kill all our dogs- but at what cost to them? At the moment it appears the cost is too great. In time, this could change. We are constantly looking to improve our dogs or source a dog of a different breed that we think may contribute to our operation.
Furthermore, it is crucial that people are involved in their sheep. If you don't enjoy looking at and checking out your sheep, perhaps consider another hobby/occupation. Too many producers bring the sheep in at weaning and "suddenly" they realize they are short 20-50% of their lamb crop...This did not happen the night before weaning. We check our sheep daily, if not twice or three times. Often in the summer to move them. We feed our dogs daily- they get ten to twenty minutes with raw meat and kibble, then we pick it up and that is it. While the dogs eat we inspect them for injuries, long dewclaws etc., and take that time to wander around the sheep. The presence of us and our quad/truck helps deter predators. It also keeps us on top of predation. If there is a kill site there is blood or perhaps even a carcass. Scavenging birds-crows, magpies, etc- also inform us of a death. If we did not wander the pastures/sheep daily, these things would be missed.
Ross, to date we have had no lgd losses of sheep. if there were, the lgd would cease to exist. Also, we don't carry any type of liability insurance on our lgds. I liken it to people not carrying liability on their pets or yard/farm dogs. Our property is posted. Our dogs aggressively bark and run to the fence if traffic stops on the road. If you are then foolish enough to get out of your vehicle, approach the barking dog, climb over the six strand electrified fence, and are subsequently mauled, then I don't think I am liable. I could be wrong but I really don't think this in an issue. It may be more likely to occur in a very densely populated area perhaps?
We do shoot problem coyotes.
We do suffer some predation losses.
We do suffer lgd losses to predators.
We do invest in good dogs and run several.
We do respond to changes in predator pressure.
We do feel spike collars could provide an advantage in an encounter with a predator. Coytes are dead anyway and we hope to avoid fights with wolves altogether but recognize it may happen.
We do clean and dispose of our deadstock.
We do keep our paddocks manageable in size for the topography, brush, predator load, time of season, etc. so our dogs can handle it.
We do check our flock/dogs frequently.

These are all good management practices that can mitigate losses to predators. There are more. If you don't do all these things and have unacceptable losses, consider implementing some of them in conjunction with lgds. I am certain you will have greater success. No one practice alone is enough, which perhaps is actually the main point one could glean from a thread that began with spike collars. =)

Happy herding.


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## BoldViolet

I just want to thank all of you for posting here. I've learned tons from this thread alone.


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## pancho

Saw a spike collar for sale on craig's list. Looked pretty good. You could tell it was from a serious dog person. It was for dogs less than 10 pounds.


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## Ed Norman

pancho said:


> Saw a spike collar for sale on craig's list. Looked pretty good. You could tell it was from a serious dog person. It was for dogs less than 10 pounds.


That thing would destroy a wolf when he tried to pass it the next day.


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## wendle

Ed Norman said:


> That thing would destroy a wolf when he tried to pass it the next day.


I'm thinking we may be approaching this all the wrong way. Instead of getting bigger and badder could be better going small and sneaky. Wonder if they sell those collars for cats.


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## pancho

Ed Norman said:


> That thing would destroy a wolf when he tried to pass it the next day.


I have always heard you can invade and destroy from the inside. Might be something to it.


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## Goatress

I just got my two metal nasty looking carlancas from Spain today. I will try to post pics later. Of course they are for giant breeds, but very much a protective cover for a dogs neck. I am still wondering if a Kevlar vest would also work for dogs in heavy wolf areas.


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## pancho

Goatress said:


> I just got my two metal nasty looking carlancas from Spain today. I will try to post pics later. Of course they are for giant breeds, but very much a protective cover for a dogs neck. I am still wondering if a Kevlar vest would also work for dogs in heavy wolf areas.


I have tried the kelvar vests but found they restricted movement and caused the dog to overheat. I don't know of any that would fit the size dog you are using.


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## wolffeathers

I have thought about the kevlar vests is such a situation too. My main worry with the vests would be long term-effects on the skin and fur underneath the vest. Their use now is a daytrip to the woods to hunt hog, but with an LGD application they would be wearing the vest more like 24/7. Probably too hot in summer. Then I would think covering that much of the body for that long would have to cause skin issues and matting. Fungal, bacterial, or otherwise. Kind of like leaving a horse blanket or saddle on for too long.


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## Pops2

pancho said:


> I have tried the *kelvar vests but found they restricted movement and caused the dog to overheat*. I don't know of any that would fit the size dog you are using.


on the money


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## Fowler

I found this website and found the different collars interesting.

http://www.abruzzese.org/collar.htm


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## wendle

Here's another link to some interesting collar information. You will need to scroll down a little. 
http://www.mysticasds.com/asdhistory.htm

I would be tempted to get one if I knew it would be ok left on 24/7 without causing irritation to the dog. Maybe if it was backed by leather or synthetic to pad it a little


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## Goatress

I would not ever leave vests on 24/7 as most predation by wolves is done at night, I would also expect to be checking on stock and dogs daily.......ditto with collars although in some situations collars are on 24/7 and can work BUT must fit right and be non-abrasive. Coban Collars uses sheepskin lining. Does not get any more comfortable than that....also does them without.


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## wendle

Those are nice collars and not a bad price


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