# Nonconformity now considered a "mental disorder"



## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

According to the new findings at the DSM ((Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), questioning authority can be a mental problem;




> Is nonconformity and freethinking a mental illness? According to the newest addition of the DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), it certainly is. The manual identifies a new mental illness called &#8220;oppositional defiant disorder&#8221; or ODD. Defined as an &#8220;ongoing pattern of disobedient, hostile and defiant behavior,&#8221; symptoms include questioning authority, negativity, defiance, argumentativeness, and being easily annoyed.



http://theunboundedspirit.com/nonconformity-and-freethinking-now-considered-mental-illnesses/



> The Soviet Union used new &#8220;mental illnesses&#8221; for political repression. People who didn&#8217;t accept the beliefs of the Communist Party developed a new type of schizophrenia. They suffered from the delusion of believing communism was wrong. They were isolated, forcefully medicated, and put through repressive &#8220;therapy&#8221; to bring them back to sanity.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

Been around for over 40 years. I was "labelled" with it as a teen and simply asked if that was because I thought the shrink was full of that which comes from the south end of a north bound horse. He never got it to stick.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Looks like they've come up with a new definition for the Tea Party, and real Conservatives.

You don't suppose this new "mental" condition coincides with the law forbidding the mentally ill from owning firearms do you?


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

I hope it turns into an epidemic and spreads like a wildfire......and theres no cure !!!


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## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

Ozarks Tom said:


> Looks like they've come up with a new definition for the Tea Party, and real Conservatives.
> 
> You don't suppose this new "mental" condition coincides with the law forbidding the mentally ill from owning firearms do you?


My guess is that is EXACTLY the direction this will go. Yes, that's how much faith I have in our "We're here to help you" gooberment.


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

Well, that's just .....never heard of anything invented of the world changing sort, that didn't come from some contrary cuss that thought they were right....no matter what anybody said.

It's about time somebody of contrary, nonconforming, freethinking, Patrick Henry sorta mind opens up a can of mental whoop-cee-do on these idjeets that are determined to destroy this nation!


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Obviously then, everyone is mentally ill because they don't respect ma authorita!

Pretty funny, considering that science DEPENDS upon questioning everything.

The real sign of mental illness is making a career out of defining mental illnesses.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Huh.. who would have think it.. I've been living all my life with a disability.. I think I need to go file a claim, and claim some back pay from SS....


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## lindamarie (Jul 9, 2013)

Harry Chickpea said:


> Obviously then, everyone is mentally ill because they don't respect ma authorita!
> 
> Pretty funny, considering that science DEPENDS upon questioning everything.
> 
> The real sign of mental illness is making a career out of defining mental illnesses.


This is why I no longer practice psychology.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

simi-steading said:


> Huh.. who would have think it.. I've been living all my life with a disability.. I think I need to go file a claim, and claim some back pay from SS....



Exactly the kind of 'out of the box' thinking they are talking about.

When you get yours, report back......I suspect there are millions of claims out there just waiting to be filed.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Twobottom said:


> According to the new findings at the DSM ((Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), questioning authority can be a mental problem;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oppositional Defiant Disorder is considerably more than just questioning authority.


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## RubyRed (Sep 24, 2011)

Twobottom said:


> According to the new findings at the DSM ((Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), questioning authority can be a mental problem;


This is some strong language here...and very worthy of seriousness. The criminal justice system is a web strategically designed to entrap the fly. Don't think it cant happen to _you_. They will and DO use any means they can to control, some may not be as obvious as others. 

The kool-aid has been replaced with the pill.


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

Gosh, I guess the old Japanese proverb about not being the nail that sticks up from the floor... is the only way to escape attention.

However, it goes against my DNA and is a self-betrayal, to NOT be that nail. And there's really nothing anyone, anywhere can do about it. Not even me.


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## ROSEMAMA (Jan 12, 2007)

You can't be "Momma's little snowflake", and be just like everyone else at the same time :facepalm:.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Free-thinking is frowned upon in the newly transformed AmeriKa. Telling lies is politically correct and having any pride is racist.

Nice.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

The original statement is inaccurate: it is not just questioning authority. And, I have seen it and it is real.

ODD is not about "questioning authority", it is about feeling strongly compelled to pick a fight or an argument with every authority figure a person sees, be it a cop, a bouncer, a judge, whatever!


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

"ODD is not about "questioning authority", it is about feeling strongly compelled to pick a fight or an argument with every authority figure a person sees, be it a cop, a bouncer, a judge, whatever!"

Perhaps it should be a subcategory of suicidal tendencies...


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## RubyRed (Sep 24, 2011)

Terri said:


> The original statement is inaccurate: it is not just questioning authority. And, I have seen it and it is real.
> 
> ODD is not about "questioning authority", it is about feeling strongly compelled to pick a fight or an argument with every authority figure a person sees, be it a cop, a bouncer, a judge, whatever!


They use to call it being rebellious in children or young Adults. That is when punishment was allowed so they had time to think it over, they were held accountable. By parents and the law, even at times, the law actually supported the parents and helped them "learn". 

Or, back in my day, we labeled those aggressors of having a chip on their shoulder and usually they came across someone that would help them knock it off. 

Nowadays--ODD is a fancy label that enables the person to be fed more pills and be able to "talk it out". Which in turn, can become a generalized label and allows red tape to tangle some one in. 

This feel good fuzzy enabling psycho babble is creating the monsters and the pills keep getting fed to them. The pharmaceutical companies make big bucks and the persons will becomes more suppressed. 

Labels are excuses, a way of deflecting.


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## whodunit (Mar 29, 2004)

I believe they also did away with ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) and it's now lumped in with ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder) and you "present" one or the other.

There is now a "spectrum" of Autism, so essentially this will include many more people.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

RubyRed, you are not describing ODD


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## RubyRed (Sep 24, 2011)

Please describe it. From the research I have done, it is easily categorized.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

RubyRed said:


> Please describe it. From the research I have done, it is easily categorized.


So that we are talking the same language, can you tell me what research you have done?

To put things in context, a lot of older people need to cut down on the carbs that they eat so that they stay healthier. This is different from having diabetes as diabetes is severe enough to be classed as an illness.

By the same token a chip on the shoulder is not an illness: ODD is.


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## RubyRed (Sep 24, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppositional_defiant_disorder

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/oppositional-defiant-disorder/DS00630

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/oppositional-defiant-disorder

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/odd

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Odd


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

1. ODD is not the same as odd

2. ODD is not a teenaged attitude, it is a teenaged attitude that is severe enough to no longer be normal. "Normal" for a teenager is irritable and disrespectful and at times defiant: that is *NOT* ODD that is normal for some teens. ODD is something that is exaggerated to the point of illness.

I realize that the Mayo clinic is a class act, but that has got to be the worst definition of ODD that I have seen! I can see where the confusion is coming from.


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## RubyRed (Sep 24, 2011)

Terri - I would be interested in some documentation of ODD that you are going by. I do research and would greatly appreciate other resources. I am specifically interested in juvenile delinquency. 

I can not go by someone's "word" to describe a disorder or an illness. This has to be backed up by sound research and evidence.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Teenagers are expected to be a pain: ODD is different. I do not believe that you know anybody with ODD: I have only known a couple of people who had it and I am 58.The "antisocial personality disorder" refered to at the end is another name for sociopath: ODD is only used if the person is not a sociopath.

Here is one: The key part is "Note: Consider a criterion met only if the behavior occurs more frequently than is typically observed in individuals of comparable age and developmental level. The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning." 
...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

DSM-IV Criteria for ODD and Article
Discussion in 'Site Help and Resources' started by Fran, Jun 6, 2003.
Fran
Fran
Registered Member
Diagnostic criteria for 313.81 Oppositional Defiant Disorder
(cautionary statement) 
A. A pattern of negativistic, hostile, and defiant behavior lasting at least 6 months, during which four (or more) of the following are present: 
(1) often loses temper 
(2) often argues with adults 
(3) often actively defies or refuses to comply with adults' requests or rules 
(4) often deliberately annoys people 
(5) often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior 
(6) is often touchy or easily annoyed by others 
(7) is often angry and resentful 
(8) is often spiteful or vindictive 
Note: Consider a criterion met only if the behavior occurs more frequently than is typically observed in individuals of comparable age and developmental level. 

B. The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning. 

C. The behaviors do not occur exclusively during the course of a Psychotic or Mood Disorder. 

D. Criteria are not met for Conduct Disorder, and, if the individual is age 18 years or older, criteria are not met for Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Reprinted with permission from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth Edition. Copyright 1994 American Psychiatric Association


Read more: http://www.conductdisorders.com/com...criteria-for-odd-and-article.4/#ixzz2oAsLjKEl


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## RubyRed (Sep 24, 2011)

Although an interesting read, this is not a credential source. Can you provide me with a direct link, please?


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

RubyRed said:


> Although an interesting read, this is not a credential source. Can you provide me with a direct link, please?


The quote is from the diagnostic criteria that all mental health professionals use. It is late and I am turning in: Google DSM-4 if you wish more information. It is a heavy read!

G'night.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

RubyRed said:


> Although an interesting read, this is not a credential source. Can you provide me with a direct link, please?


She credited direct source. Just because it doesn't have a link does not make it any less credible. She tells you directly where it came from

Old school now makes you reference it the hard way.


What, are you on ODD?


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## RubyRed (Sep 24, 2011)

farmerj said:


> What, are you on ODD?


No, but thank you for asking.


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## Daydreamer7102 (Mar 23, 2012)

I've been lurking for a while and I rarely, if ever, chime in but my son has recently been diagnosed with ODD (or is in the process of being diagnosed). It is much more than nonconformity. I'm not sure I would use that word would describe him. I would say angry, resentful, mean, purposely annoying, starting to be destructive, sad, believes the world is against him and nothing ever goes his way. One word to pay attention to in the diagnostic criteria is 'often.' Everyone gets resentful or even a little spiteful at times. This goes way beyond that.

It's very difficult when so many people believe it's a result of our parenting deficiencies. And I also wonder if it is. In any case, all we can do is move forward from here, hope the help helps, deal with what we have and try to make it better. Don't get me wrong, I love my son as much as any parent loves theirs. The rare times when his attitude and behavior are good he is absolutely delightful, kind, funny, so smart, witty, one of a kind individual.

And, as someone mentioned, ODD has been around a long time. I've seen this misinformation a few places now and it really is incorrect. We need to start understanding mental health better and having rumors abound does not help.


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## RubyRed (Sep 24, 2011)

The research I have done with the information Terri has given me, lands me back to quotes (criteria) from a forum and APA Diagnostic Classification DSM-IV-TR, is the same information she dismissed from Mayo. 

This is about as close as I have come to seeing any difference, or explanation. Still not very defined though, in my opinion. Leaves a lot of variables. 

Conduct Disorder - This mental disorder may be diagnosed when a child seriously misbehaves with aggressive or nonaggressive behaviors against people, animals or property that may be characterized as belligerent, destructive, threatening, physically cruel, deceitful, disobedient, or dishonest. This may include stealing, intentional injury, and forced sexual activity.

Oppositional Defiant Disorder - If a child's problem behaviors do not meet the criteria for Conduct Disorder, but involve a pattern of defiant, angry, antagonistic, hostile, irritable, or vindictive this mental disorder of childhood may be diagnosed. These children may blame others for their problems. 

These are very confusing to say the least. Above is centered around children and disorders that affect them. 

What the OP's message was, from what I understood it as, was a classification to the general populace. That non-conformity can be used against ones own freedoms and rights. Which in that case, can provide authorities WAY too much power by a given "criteria".


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## RubyRed (Sep 24, 2011)

Daydreamer - Thank you for your insight, it allows a better understanding. If you are not comfortable in answering, I completely understand. What type of treatment is used on your son?


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

personal experience has taught me it's very easy to label people.

It's very difficult to diagnose people correctly.

I was told it was appropriate behavior for my wife to teach both my daughters how to shoot archery. But I was endangering my children teaching them proper gun safety and handling as well as getting them into the state hunters safety program.

The reason given...

Archery is an olympic sport....:smack:hrm: This from a state licensed psychologist and certified as the local "anger management" counselor.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

farmerj said:


> personal experience has taught me it's very easy to label people.
> 
> It's very difficult to diagnose people correctly.
> 
> ...


 Target shooting, with a gun, is too.

Why was an anger management counselor telling you this? I'm guessing there has to be more to this story.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

thesedays said:


> Target shooting, with a gun, is too.
> 
> Why was an anger management counselor telling you this? I'm guessing there has to be more to this story.



Ugly divorce.

I had an ex-wife that called the sheriff 108 times in less than 12 months on me. If I didn't agree to anything she said, I was reported for domestic assault.

Connected to the OP, the most screwed up people I know are both teachers and mental health professionals.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

farmerj said:


> Ugly divorce.
> 
> I had an ex-wife that called the sheriff 108 times in less than 12 months on me. If I didn't agree to anything she said, I was reported for domestic assault.
> 
> Connected to the OP, the most screwed up people I know are both teachers and mental health professionals.


If the accusations are untrue, why didn't SHE go to jail for making false police reports?


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

thesedays said:


> If the accusations are untrue, why didn't SHE go to jail for making false police reports?


I asked the sheriff that in court. I also asked him WHY was I being held accountable for HER actions.

The judge said I had no right asking the sheriff.

I said it was an ugly divorce.


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## Daydreamer7102 (Mar 23, 2012)

RubyRed said:


> Daydreamer - Thank you for your insight, it allows a better understanding. If you are not comfortable in answering, I completely understand. What type of treatment is used on your son?


Sure. He goes to counseling once a week with a psychologist. I don't know if there's a specific name for it. Cognitive therapy or talk therapy? She sets behavior goals for him. He also meets with the school counselor weekly. That is it for now. 

He does have an appointment in a couple of weeks with a child psychiatrist, so things may change after that.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

It should scare the absolute beejeebers out of all of us that a "anger management counselor" flaming idiot has the power to sentence you or I for the rest of our life with a extremely negative label ...........


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

The mental health system is extremely scary how fast and difficult they can make your life.

Not always for the better too.


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## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

It is also scary how slow and inept they can be too.


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## Sam Boggs (Feb 3, 2011)

The DSM has another use and it is for billing insurance and govt.
Sam


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## Twp.Tom (Dec 29, 2010)

If "non-conformity" is considered a mental dis-order, then I am full blown nutso? Think about it, What is one of the most common words used, by children learning to speak? Why?- It is Human nature to question things, people etc. It is also a "civilized human", who tries not to : argue, be hostile, get-along with others. Just my observation* Sometimes, you have no choice-but to "go against the grain"


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

When the kids were young, I refused to 'administer' allergy meds (that was the rage when they were young.....everything was an allergy) I switched docs 3 times until I found the right one....that didn't just write prescriptions, but actually looked at the kids.

My daughter just enlisted in the Marines.
She was told that anyone who has used an inhaler after the age of 13, is disqualified.
SO MANY things will disqualify a person from service......most of the things that the docs PUSH.....coinsedence? I don't think so.

I yanked them from the public schools when they finished their 6th,5th and 3rd grade years, and home schooled them to graduation.
Taught Civics, The Constitution, etc...
They didn't go to the doc, unless they were SICK....fever, puking, sick.
Which was rare (praise the Lord) because (in part) they ate well, and drank lots of water....not this fast food conveinence food crap.
I didn't take them to the shrink when they acted up, I took 'em to the wood shed.
They were taught right from wrong, respect, manners, honor, courage, Faith....
The 'teen age' years were my favorite. 
I did not have 'typical teens' because they were not treated like typical teens. 
They were not exposed to what 'typical teens' are exposed too.
Their peers, were not 'typical' teens....and I did not select their peers....they chose them.
I was called "control freak - helicopter mom- etc" and I didn't listen to them or cave to their pressure...I stayed the course.
I invested my everything into my children, and my return on investment...is amazing.

Teachers, Counselors, Shrinks....no way.

You think they are there to help.....you don't realize what happens when you have a permanent record of 'prescribed drugs for diagnosed conditions' regardless if it's bull hockey or truth.....

I guess this makes me bat spit crazy....

(ETA comments about teens)


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Many many moons ago my third son was doing the hyper active thing. The Dr. prescribed a favorite at the time Riddlin (sp?)........We didn't like what it did to him . . . . .so we quit giving it to him . . . . . .

I am proud to say he became a Navy Seal . . . . .and is now about to retire from the Navy...........

In this day and age if a youngster--or anybody-- is on (such as Riddlin) what will they be labled---called . . . . . . .me thinks that they will have a ball and chains around their neck for the rest of their life.........

A huge bunch of those flaming idiots--Dr. Psycho---should be strung up in the tree behind the barn . . . . .for all the people they have "condemned".........


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Hoo Ya Jim in MI!!!


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## RubyRed (Sep 24, 2011)

Jim-mi said:


> In this day and age if a youngster--or anybody-- is on (such as Riddlin) what will they be labled---called . . . . . . .me thinks that they will have a ball and chains around their neck for the rest of their life.........
> 
> A huge bunch of those flaming idiots--Dr. Psycho---should be strung up in the tree behind the barn . . . . .for all the people they have "condemned".........


The fallout of these drugs like Ritalin and Adderall is that when the child grows up, they are no longer prescribed the amphetamine, so they seek out it's cousin, methamphetamine. These are highly addictive drugs. So many people gasp when they hear of what bath salts do to people. Desperate people do desperate things to get high. 

It would be interesting to know the statistics and the breakdown of the people that use, what got them started. To me it is obvious, the Doctors and the school system.

Pills are the answer to all, that way we don't have to be held accountable of our bad behavior or our children's.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Yup . . . "pills are the answer to all"

That is BIG PHARMA's line.

And to their $$$$$$$$$$billions of profit.

Big Pharma IS the monster enemy here........


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