# Solar panel sellers slammed in Which? probe



## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

10 out of 14 solar water heating firms misled us


" Ten out of 14 companies selling solar water heating systems exaggerated potential savings to consumers during an undercover sting carried out by Which?.
During the investigation, household name Everest potentially broke the law and has admitted that its representative made claims that they knew to be false during the sales pitch.
For more solar water heating system buying advice and to watch an undercover video clip of a solar energy salesman in action, see our online guide to buying solar panels.

*Misleading claims*
Everest quoted a 43% cut in the total gas bill and claimed a saving of Â£35,000 over 20 years. Another national company, Bournemouth-based Ideal Solar Energy claimed its solar water heating system would halve the gas bill, saving the customer around Â£600 a year. 
Ideal Solar Energy also misquoted energy regulator Ofgem to talk up savings, claiming that 70% of a home&#8217;s gas costs go on hot water and 30% on heating &#8211; Ofgem says that it&#8217;s actually the other way round. Our online guide to buying solar panels includes a video of the Ideal Solar Energy salesman in action. 
These claims are wildly optimistic. A highly experienced solar water heating expert calculated that the reduction on the overall gas bill would be closer to 10% - a saving of about Â£55 a year at current gas prices.
Senior Trading Standards officer Neil McLoughlin said it&#8217;s an offence for companies to make misleading or false statements that cause you to buy a product. He added: &#8216;The precise nature of Everest&#8217;s figure makes the claim even more misleading as it appeared to have been carefully calculated and would cause consumers to place undue reliance on its accuracy.&#8217;

*Solar water heating sales tactics*
Both companies also used apparently unfair sales tactics. Everest slashed an already high quote of over Â£11,500 (about three times the lowest quote) to a still-high Â£8,500 if we signed up there and then.
Ideal Solar Energy dropped its price from Â£8,690 to Â£6,520. The next day it followed up with a phone call offering a new price of Â£5,860 if a Â£400 deposit (coming down to Â£250) was paid before the end of the day.
Mr McLoughlin said: &#8216;These practices deprives people of the time needed to make an informed choice.&#8217; 

*Solar water heating companies*
While these two companies gave the most cause for concern, Which? received poor service and exaggerated claims of performance from nearly all 14 firms. One suggested we&#8217;d make our money back in &#8216;six to eight years&#8217; on a system costing Â£5,200. *Even with income from the proposed Renewable Heat Incentive(RHI), pay-back times are likely to be double this.*
Not one company identified all the important technical challenges before issuing a quotation, according to Which?&#8217;s solar expert.
Just one company &#8211; Southern Solar (0845 456 9474) &#8211; was worthy of mention for its helpful and sensible approach.

*Solar selling complaints*
In the last three years, the Office of Fair Trading (OFT), has demanded that three particularly notorious companies &#8211; Smart Energy (UK) Ltd, Solar Technik Ltd (not to be confused with an unconnected company of the same name formed on 23 March 2010), which have both gone bust, and Ultimate Energy which has been dissolved &#8211; should stop misleading their customers.
The OFT received around 1,000 complaints about the sector last year, which Which? thinks is far too high for an industry with under 100,000 installations in UK homes. Holiday insurers, damp-proofers and landlords attracted a similar number of complaints last year, but are used by a far greater number of people in the UK.

*Cowboy solar sellers*
Which? chief executive, Peter Vicary-Smith, said: 'Most of the firms in our investigation behaved like true cowboys - they promised huge savings that bore no relation to reality, and some really piled pressure on the homeowner to sign up immediately or risk losing a one off "special offer".
'The solar industry is too important to our long-term energy needs for things to drag on like this. It needs to clean up its act, and if it won&#8217;t, the OFT and the government will have to step in.'

From:
http://www.which.co.uk/news/2010/04/solar-panel-sellers-slammed-in-which-probe-212256


----------



## sevenmmm (Mar 1, 2011)

A properly sized and installed solar water heater that should cost about 10 grand will save $80 per year for 2 people using natural gas. About $120 for electric and propane. Double the savings without doubling the cost if you have 4, ect... If you have a teenager that takes half hour showers, then the savings will skyrocket from there!

That is all the Federal Reserve Notes you will save at these price levels.

However, one must put a calculation to the long term savings and what these systems will cost in the future. What incentives are available to reduce the initial cost. And more to a societal impact; how much pollution a solar system will save from going into the atmosphere?

First of all, one must have a notion that fossil fuel costs are going to increase over the long haul. It wasn't too long ago natural gas was trading at a dollar, propane was 50 cents a gallon, and electricity was 6.5 cents a KwH. Now they are all significantly higher with huge spikes having to be recognized in the natgas prices. If one has the idea prices are going higher, to arrive at a payback one must consider long term trends and plug in a future number.

Again, if one has the idea prices are going higher, then the gains will also track higher. I always use to say the return on investment is better than money market rates, better than CD rates, and better and safer than treasury bills. With an automatic escalator clause on the return!

Next, I would point out these solar water heating systems are made out of copper aluminum and glass. All three of these materials are highly energy intensive to manufacture. So if you believe energy costs are going to increase (not to mention copper becoming ever harder to mine), so will the cost of these systems.

Now, you can count on an appreciating asset.

Oh, and did I yet mention these systems will provide one with a measure of self-sufficiency in heating? There is still no greater feeling to me to check the tempurature on my solar storage tank or feel the heat coming from my solar air heater. I mean a really good feeling.

Then there is the pollution aspect. There is more pollution coming from buildings than from any other single source. If you are an environmentalist, you would be amiss to ignore solar heating. If you are a conservationist, you would be amiss to ignore solar heating.

If you think buying a fuel efficient car is all you need to think of yourself as an environmentalist or conservationist, you are dead wrong. 

Once you get the vehicle you will have every excuse to drive the wheels off of it because you are getting better mileage. You will be using more fuel, and polluting more, than if you kept the old jalopy parked in the driveway. Check out the definition of Jevons Pradox on wikipedia.

Right? Then let us figure out what the $30,000 car is worth after ten years, plus all the associated costs, and compare this to having purchased a $10,000 solar water heater instead.

I have more reasons, if you have made it this far Boris.


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

sevenmmm said:


> Oh, and did I yet mention these systems will provide one with a measure of self-sufficiency in heating? There is still no greater feeling to me to check the temperature on my solar storage tank or feel the heat coming from my solar air heater. I mean a really good feeling.


Hey, I hear ya. Self sufficiency isn't for everyone ( but if the grid falls apart, folks will sure wish is was for them....ahahahaaa).

I love splitting wood to heat our house, and I love reading the electric meters on my PV solar power. 22 days into the 30 day billing cycle, we've bought 136 kw/hrs from the power company, and produced 395 of our own.


----------



## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

1.


sevenmmm said:


> ..I have more reasons, if you have made it this far Boris.


I think this is not a forum of speechwriters.
You have to be more SPECIFIC here.

I prefer not to believe in somebody&#8217;s speeches, but in the real calculations.

My &#8220;trap&#8221; is already ready for you. And I will &#8220;catch&#8221; you as soon as your real payback calculation for the Solar heating system in the cold climate will be posted.


2. More info, related to this Thread.

&#8220;&#8230;the head of the UK&#8217;s renewable energy industry consumer code, a code which bans misleading marketing claims, thanked Solar Twin Ltd for its &#8220;supportive attitude&#8221; to the work that they are doing in cleaning up the solar water heating industry&#8230;

*Selling solar heating systems using exaggeration must no longer be regarded as acceptable practice in the solar heating industry. And solar thermal companies who share our concerns about possible mis-selling must no longer be expected to keep silent and to follow the party line, by turning a blind eye to a widespread and unacceptable practice which we seem to have unearthed&#8230;
*
It seems from this issue that regulators are not doing enough to protect the consumer from exaggerated expectations being raised by exaggerated claims being made by a large number of supposedly reputable solar panel heating suppliers...&#8221;


http://www.solartwin.com/solar-news...t-solar-heating-reported-to-industry-watchdog


Boris Romanov


----------



## sevenmmm (Mar 1, 2011)

You can not calculate a payback because you do not know the future cost of energy and you do not know the entropy factor on the equipment. 

The regulators don't know either, it is ridiculous for them to regulate something that is not a known factor. If the cost of energy quadrupled tomorrow because of a nuclear device being set off in Riyadh, then all the calculations will be rather short, now, wouldn't they?

You can figure a payback if you'd like but it would be a bald-faced lie. I would much rather start with a return on investment using current energy costs and do a little predicting from there.


----------



## sevenmmm (Mar 1, 2011)

Again, how many solar heating systems have you installed Boris?


----------



## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

You transferred your question from the different thread; therefore I would like to remind you that so many balls are still in your court.
For example:
&#8211; &#8220;I can not "buy" your new statement either without your real portfolio (web site, links, customers testimonials) as a proof of your experience as a Solar collector installer, *especially for the SRCC certified evacuated tub solar collectors from SUNMAXX, Apricus, Thermomax, Thermo Ind.*"
From post #24 http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=413116

The website you presented does not contain NOT EVEN ONE project with above-mentioned solar collectors, therefore this is *my last response* to your useless and endless speeches, *but not a real data.* 

But more importantly, the Green Sky Energetics, Inc is not listed as a dealer, distributor or installer among the major manufactures of evacuated tube solar collectors...





sevenmmm said:


> ...My business has installed well over one hundred systems and repaired just as many...


A 100 percent ratio is a very bad ratio. Poor customers&#8230;
May be one of your statements


sevenmmm said:


> ..more cheap chineses junk....


 could be applied to the solar collectors that your business installed?

Just one LAST recommendation &#8211; please do not misinform your customers if you are STILL the REAL representative of the Green Sky Energetics, Inc

Boris Romanov

P.S.
&#8220;&#8230;Google forbids the use of pseudonyms, telling members that their identities must be the same as in the real world.
*The requirement has helped keep the quality of the discourse on Google+ high&#8230;*&#8221;
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2094409,00.html


----------



## sevenmmm (Mar 1, 2011)

I am the real guy behind GreenSky. I paid plenty to get it up and operating. I am wondering where you got this information: *"please do not misinform your customers if you are STILL the REAL representative of the Green Sky Energetics, Inc"*. Unless you have an answer, like a name of some who told you this, you have pulled this from your wild imagination.

No, we have never installed those products you have listed. We have been approached by many evacuated tube manufactuers - all in China - and our answer is still the same; that unless we have a commercial application that requires 200 degrees or above temperatures, we will not represent any of them. They are not meant for residential applications...

However, you should be made aware, we did repair a few of them and none are producing what was represented.


----------



## sevenmmm (Mar 1, 2011)

How many evacuated tube installations have you performed Boris?


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Good for you svsenmmm. . . .stick to your guns . . .. .. . . . . .. 

I'm in the "snow belt" of northern Mich and would Never consider evac. tubes mainly because of the 'snow' factor.

Its a shame that certain folks put on their blinders about equipment that has a proven ability . . . . .. . . . .Thinking that some china junk is the end all..........


----------



## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

Jim-mi said:


> ..I'm in the "snow belt" of northern Mich and would Never consider evac. tubes mainly because of the 'snow' factor...


In my opinion this statement is incorrect.
Just two examples and you can visit these places to see result:











*SunMaxx Solar Wins State Award for Best in Class 2010*
"A SunMaxx Solar Thermal System won Best In State for 2010 government solar projects. The New York Solar Energy Industries Association (NYSEIA) announced this week that the SunMaxx ThermoPower-VHP30 system (with a total of 1,440 evacuated solar tube collectors) installed at Wallkill Correctional Facility in Wallkill, NY, was the best in its class in design, impact and total reduction in fossil fuel use. The system will average 1.6 million BTU&#8217;s per day of free solar energy.

The system was designed as a pilot project directive from Commissioner John C. Egan of the New York State Office of General Services (OGS). The OGS is responsible for all public buildings in New York state, which include schools, prisons and government buildings. The hope is to utilize existing solar technology to reduce energy costs at the state level. Customers in the surrounding area that are already using solar thermal energy can take pride in the fact that residential system installations helped SunMaxx illustrate to the OGS the effectiveness of solar thermal in reducing energy costs.

This is groundbreaking for New York state and establishes this area as a successful test bed for the use of solar thermal technology. SunMaxx ThermoPower-VHP30 system installed at Wallkill Correctional Facility, Wallkill, NY; winner of Best Government Solar Project 2010"












"From the beginning, Old York Towers' board members had been influenced by a 1989 study by a local seniors' group that, among other things, concluded that the most important element needed for seniors to stay in their community was the certainty that help was available when needed. They incorporated features &#8211; such as emergency pull cords &#8211; that signal to an attendant in a first-floor office that help is required.

To increase economies of scale, Old York Tower formed a partnership with two neighbouring housing co-operatives, OWN (built by the Older Women's Network) and New Hibret (which has 141 units for families and disabled renters). After years of lobbying, the board persuaded the Ontario Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care to approve a pilot project. In the end, the health services were provided by Dixon Hall, a respected, community-based social service agency.
.
Of the 500 units, there are approximately 100 to 110 active cases at any given time. Some, who suffer from a chronic disability, need help with bathing, housekeeping and other daily tasks and are permanently on the list; others have recently had surgery or an illness and require temporary assistance."
From: globesolarenergy.com


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

In that first pix that was nothing but a 'dusting' of snow.

In my area it is common to get 20 plus feet of snow.

Even with the steep angle that my PV panels are mounted at, I get Very thick layers of ice and snow on the panels. . . . .. . . . .I use a very soft brisstle brush with an 8' handle on it to remove what I can so that the sun can sooner or later melt off thr rest.

Last season because of an injury I could not get to two PV racks . . .so they produced no output for two months. . . . . . . . .

So I could not begin to use evac. tubes . . . .Snow removal would break most of the tubes.


----------



## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

Jim-mi said:


> . . .Snow removal would break most of the tubes.


I cannot understand why some people make such irresponsible statements?

Do you have ANY REAL confirmation of your statement for the SunMaxx evacuated tubes, presented on the first picture?
If NOT &#8211; please stop to misinform forum members...

&#8220;..There are two tubes used in the production of a SunMaxx evacuated tube. *Both tubes are made of Borosilicate Glass, which is extremely strong and durable.&#8221;*
http://www.sunmaxxsolar.com/evacuated-tube-solar-collector-manufacturing.php

&#8220;Borosilicate is also a material of choice for evacuated tube solar thermal technology, *because of its high strength and heat resistance*.&#8221;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borosilicate_glass


Boris Romanov


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Keep it friendly here, guys no baiting or trapping, allowed. HT has one rule, Be Nice. If you can't stay civil with one another then walk away.


----------

