# 1st time LGD owner



## natedlee (Jun 6, 2014)

Hi. I have spent that last 8 months getting started with livestock and have decided it's time to get an LGD. I've found a hobby farmer that's about to have Great Pyrenees, Anatolian Shepard, Maremma mix puppies and it seems like a good fit. I want to get this right so I'm looking for some advice. Here's my situation:

- 11-stall barn with about 1.5 acres of fence + free ranging. Plenty of room for a LGD and a stall specifically designed with an opening for a dog to investigate things in the barn at night or whatever. No real access for him to leave the barn once I shut things up for the night.
- 8 hens, 1 rooster, 2 guinea, 2 turkeys, 4 quail
- 3 dwarf goats
- 1 pig for butchering
- 1 small house dog that goes with me to do farm chores. Generally well behaved but likes to chase from time to time. Very responsive to discipline - almost immediate, but he's a house dog still so animals are exciting, always.
- 1 barn cat that's useless. I think he lives somewhere else now and only comes back when he needs food. Freeloader.
- All but the pig free range and generally stay within a 1.5-2 acre area

My plan:
- I will get the puppy just after (s)she's weened and plan to take it straight to the barn. Never in my house. 
- Plan to have it in a crate at night in a stall just for the dog.
- Plan to introduce to animals while on leash and correct tendencies to chase or get excited.
- Plan to take walks on leash around outline of property at least 1x/day until it seems to understand.
- Plan to introduce dog to livestock in controlled close environment (empty closed stall) to create calm with various animals.
- After that seems to be going well we'll spend time daily off-leash in empty stall fenced area with animals. 
- If all is going well start off-leash with animals.
- At some point introduce house dog when I feel the puppy understands his job.

Questions:
- Am I overthinking this? 
- How long should this all take in terms of days/weeks/months? 
- How quickly will a LGD breed take to catch on where I can leave him alone for longer periods of time?
- How long should the dog stay shut in the crate at night vs letting him do his thing?
- What else am I missing?


Thanks!


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

Don't got much time for a big write up, but hopefully someone will.
_Am I over thinking it?_ Maybe a little?? but seems like a workable plan?
_How long should this take??_ not sure what which you are talking about. 3 months old they are really getting started taking serious stuff in. I year they are learning fairly well, or going the other direction. 2 to closer to 3 years you will have a finished dog, if it is going to be one.
_How long to leave in crate?_ not sure what kind of crate you are talking about? I am envisioning a little wooden box, but may be way off. If you have something like say a 10'x 10' cage, stall whatever that is kinda like a pen that allows normal movement. Then I would suggest a long time if he will have access to the chickens at night while unattended. Well into a year of age they can still do stupid stuff with chickens that will be hard to break.

Here is what I can tell you about a LGD in my short experience. They do not do well confined, especially if alone. Even when you think they are doing well 6 or 9 months in, they can still grab a chicken and start a bad habit, if left unattended. We ask a lot of them and it takes a while for them to mature to the point of rally being responsible. Keep in mind the average dog is only expected to not chase cars and not bark at night, other than that pretty much anything goes. An LGD is generally expected to learn to do much more than that. 

I do not like the idea of letting a pup run with chickens or other small animals they can harm unattended. i also do not like the idea of penning them up by themselves except for the times we have to do something with them. Which regardless of your best intentions will get shortened some days due to other responsibilities. Honestly if you are raising other animals anyway. I would get your dog its very own pet pig, about the same size it is. It will be difficult for either of them to hurt each other. Then when it is left alone it has a buddy, learns it is friends with animals and then later you have a pig to eat. My first LGD got her own pet pig, just happened to be a registered breeding boar I was going to keep. My new LGD has his own pet pig that just happens to be a gilt I am going to keep. 

I congratulate you for taking the time to plan ahead instead of simply getting a dog, bringing it home, then going Now What??


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## Batt (Sep 8, 2006)

Don't know about from weaning directly to the barn and lots of scary new livestock...Seems pretty abrupt. Could you leave her with the hobby farmer till she is 3 months old? To be with older dogs and livestock? LGD's mature slower and the extra time would be beneficial...JMHO


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## Micknleb (Jun 1, 2014)

We got an Anatolian/GP mix (3 years old) about 3 or 4 months ago. We originally wanted him as strictly an LGD, and had planned to keep him away from our other "pet" dogs, who stay in the house at night. It hasn't turned out that way. Mike (the LGD) is really a "farm dog." We have about 12 acres, and the goats, sheep, chickens and ducks are on the back half. Mike roams the property at night, sometimes we hear him barking in the front, sometimes in the back. He is protective of the animals, but he also likes to play with our other dogs. He is also a hound for affection, and loves to be around us whenever we are outside. We don't let him in the house, but we don't restrict anywhere on the property. So far, he hasn't wandered too far off the property.

I guess my overall point is that dogs have a mind of their own and you have to respect that to some degree. We thought we would get an LGD, but he wants to be more involved with us as well with the animals. He's a great dog, very smart and good-natured. He just not what we thought we were getting. He's much better.


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## Eagle1 (Jun 1, 2012)

I suggest you get the pup used to your house dog early while it can match the pups play. They learn how hard to play with other dogs quite well, but if pup is 10 time the size it can get rough. My dogs know how much force to use with everything around here but when they play with each other it is wild. You can hear the body slams from long way off and someone is always limping a bit. Yet they never hurt any of the other dogs even if challenged or correcting. Our smallest dog is smaller than the cats and the biggest is 31" at the shoulder. He will correct her but not damage. 
Remember this pup will be bigger than a lab at 6 months and not done filling out until around 3 years old.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

As long as your LGD is introduced to livestock before 16 weeks of age he will be fine. Do not take an 8 week old puppy and stick him in a barn. Larger breeds mature more slowly than smaller ones, both physically and mentally. Find a breeder who keeps the puppies longer, at least 10 weeks and 12 weeks would be better. They are learning a lot at that age from their mother and siblings. If the puppy is from a place with goats it should be okay to be even older.

I agree with putting the puppy with your current dog. Your dog will be more accepting of a puppy and will help him learn dog social manners. Spend time with the puppy. You can&#8217;t just turn him loose with the livestock but should probably start with him on a leash so you have some control. His pen area should be adjacent to the livestock. There are websites that spell out breaking in a guardian.

Be sure you do not get a dog that roams, like a Great Pyrenees. The dog will be over at the neighbor&#8217;s all the time. You need a dog that stays close to home. I even wonder if you need an LGD specifically. A dog that will guard it&#8217;s territory may be all you need on 1.5 acres. While guarding the homestead he is automatically guarding the livestock.


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## aleefarms (Jul 23, 2014)

I don't believe you are over thinking it. It's good to identify your needs and remain open to situations you haven't considered. Will your fence deter the predators in your area? Do your fowl stay in the fenced area? Do you only need a farm dog or do you need a lgd or lgds? If I am losing money to rogue dogs, I want a dog aggressive lgd that doesn't have to determine if the dog is a threat. Are you selecting the puppy you listed because the parents are everything you want in a lgd? That is a very broad gene pool and your pup may inherit all of the good traits or all of the bad traits. An lgd is at least a 2 yr commitment of strategic training to attain a well balanced working dog. There are many posters with various perspectives so all advice may not suit your needs. The advice to wait until twelve weeks is gold. Pay the farmer to keep the pup an extra month but only if you are familiar with the dam and are satisfied with her characteristics. Good luck.


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## OakHollowBoers (Jun 26, 2013)

You mentioned a fenced area and free range. Many lids aren't going to stay put without a fence.


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## natedlee (Jun 6, 2014)

Thanks for all the feedback. Lots to think about. A few things as a general response:

- we have almost 4 acres the dog will be able to roam, but I do want him to understand border limits or he'll end up in a war with my neighbors two dogs. They have an electric fence that keeps them confined. 
- The fences need A LOT of work (we bought in Apr and hadn't been maintained in a while) and won't deter animals that can squeeze between or under things, but the only issue we've had is hawks, raccoon, and possum. It's anywhere from 3'-4' high. The goats will jump up on and over it at the low points so I assume any motivated predator could also get in.
- I do have 3 fenced areas that are about 1 acre, give or take. The fowl and goats will explore about 1.5-2 acres total if I leave the main gate open. If it's closed each day is different. The goats and fowl always find a way out if they really want to. But they never go far. 
- The seller is happy to keep him 12 weeks and I'd only have to pay for food. Pretty nice. The mom and dad are both super easy going and are great LGDs for their small farm. I like this advice and will probably do this for sure. 
- I am a little concerned now about loneliness now, from the replies. I hadn't considered that. The dogs stall would be IN the barn. No access to the coop (I turned a stall into a coop and added an door to the yard), but will be there with all the smells and sounds of the goats, pig, and fowl. If the goats are accepting he could stay with them and have access outside 24/7 if he wanted, but that seems a future goal. Still thinking this one through. He could also stay outside the barn if he really wanted to. I have a big doghouse or could make something nicer. 
- I'm excited about this and want to commit the right amount of time to have an independent security force for my animals primarily. The question about a "farm dog" or LGD... What would you say the difference is? I want a responsible dog that has a job rather than a rambunctious animal that requires a lot of attention. But maybe I'd be happy with a dog that is content staying outside and with the animals too - and not highly trained


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Natedlee, it is always a gamble when getting a new pup, especially one with mixed genetics. You're getting some good advice here; and I would encourage you to focus much on helping that new pup own its own confidence, i.e. keeping the pup safe while letting it explore its entire surroundings. (Since it apparently comes from working parents and will stay with its dam long enough to learn some lgd skills, just letting it free-range among all the animals you want it to guard should allow all the socializing such a pup would need. Such a pup can even learn manners from what it guards.) I say this because of the experience I've had with my lgd, i.e. a Bulgarian Karakachan. When I first brought it home, I placed it inside my barn in its own little pen where it could see, smell and hear the goats it would be guarding without taking a chance on its getting hurt. I quickly learned Valentina did not like to be caged; however, when I let her roam freely in and out of the barn, she and the goats adapted easily to each other. I would even catch her learning how to interact with them in ways that did not harm either. I believe an lgd simply has an inherent sense of what it is suppose to do; and we humans get in their way without knowing it...of course, now, I base this opinion on my Karakachan as I've had no experience with other lgd breeds.

As for as socializing with humans, it is wise to teach it to let you examine every part of its body and even learn to ride in a car without problems. This is strictly because you may need to doctor it at some time.


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## natedlee (Jun 6, 2014)

motdaugrnds said:


> As for as socializing with humans, it is wise to teach it to let you examine every part of its body and even learn to ride in a car without problems. This is strictly because you may need to doctor it at some time.



Yeah I've been reading that if you don't ensure human socialization and stuff like car rides you'll "never" teach them. I never thought of that aspect. 

I think the main thing I've learned over the past few days reading here and elsewhere is that I will learn to rely on the dogs instincts and my job is to really provide safety, food, some rules/correction and praise of course... but otherwise he or she will naturally look over the animals. The extra time with mom will be good.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

natedlee said:


> Yeah I've been reading that if you don't ensure human socialization and stuff like car rides you'll "never" teach them. I never thought of that aspect.
> 
> I think the main thing I've learned over the past few days reading here and elsewhere is that I will learn to rely on the dogs instincts and my job is to really provide safety, food, some rules/correction and praise of course... but otherwise he or she will naturally look over the animals. The extra time with mom will be good.


I'm wondering of the pup is being handled by humans at all during it's first 12 weeks...so it can be used to that already. Maybe I missed it but have you visited the farm and met the owners and been able to observe the parents of the pup. Sounds like it could be an excellent situation.

You'll get lots of great advice here from folks who have trained LGD's....and of course, we'll need to see some pics.


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## billinwv (Sep 27, 2013)

Careful with a pup of any age, even small goats can and will pound a pup to death. I wouldn't put a lgd in a stall with any goat. I raised mine in a fenced area with shelter in the pasture area. I put chickens, my small dogs and a kid goat in with them on a regular basis. By the time they could get over the hog panels all was well.


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## natedlee (Jun 6, 2014)

aart said:


> I'm wondering of the pup is being handled by humans at all during it's first 12 weeks...so it can be used to that already. Maybe I missed it but have you visited the farm and met the owners and been able to observe the parents of the pup. Sounds like it could be an excellent situation.
> 
> 
> 
> You'll get lots of great advice here from folks who have trained LGD's....and of course, we'll need to see some pics.



Haven't visited the farm - it's pretty far for me to get there actually. The dialog with the family has been great and they have lots of pics. If I can get out there it would be really good though. 

I'll def post pics!


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## natedlee (Jun 6, 2014)

billinwv said:


> Careful with a pup of any age, even small goats can and will pound a pup to death. I wouldn't put a lgd in a stall with any goat. I raised mine in a fenced area with shelter in the pasture area. I put chickens, my small dogs and a kid goat in with them on a regular basis. By the time they could get over the hog panels all was well.



The good thing is all of the animals are used to my ~17 lb Bichon/Shi Tzu mix and generally get along. They let him explore them and they're area and just give him a little nip or bump if he's getting annoying. The goats are sweet too. I handle them a lot so they're pretty docile. 

But, yeah I won't plan to leave the pup with them alone in a closed areas for a while. Great point.


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## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

That little house dog, things can go two ways, LGD thinks it a friend and never corrects the house dog from chasing/killing or the LGD kills the house dog because it looked at the livestock the wrong way. Keep the house dog in the house unless it's 100% trained and doesn't even give dirty looks to your livestock. 

Way over thinking. I got my pup at 7wks, put her in a 15x15 pen next to ducks and chickens. She lived in there for a few months. Then got a larger area and daytime free access to the birds. Bit later, larger area, met the hotwire fence. Soon after that, she got the sheep area, too. And once she learned to get out of the way of the horses, she was free to come and go where ever she pleased, day and night. Nothing is locked away from her. 

No leashes, no ocd hawk-eye about being free with the birds or sheep. I just yelled or made a loud sound when she tried something stupid. As a 1yr old, she tried to play with sheep, shock collar, 2-3 times, fixed that. Plus, I upped how often I and my house dogs got to play with her. She doesn't like fetch, doesn't chase, doesn't like chew toys....Was a real pain during her chewing phases, I had to hide everything from her or expect it to be chewed. =/ 

They should know their job and only need guidance from the human/other LGD. 

If the breeder has the livestock you own, then they can keep the puppy for longer. But if not, then getting it used to your animals might be hard, especially chickens. LGDs are for sheep and goats, so things like a chicken is a natural and wild dinner for these dogs, same goes for rabbits, cuy, groundhog, etc.

Hardly 2acres is tiny and might be your biggest issue. 

Hot wire worked for my pup, she met it at 3mo and it got her good! At about 6-7mo, she forgot the fence had a bite to it, it got her again, she hasn't touched it in years now. 
You might want to put up hot wire and teach her that fences bite dang hard her if she tries to go over or under them. And do it at an early age, they'll figure it out better than an older dog who thinks they know everything. Just like teenagers, you don't get it into their thick heads early, then they'll be heck to get it as teens.


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Hmmmm we have a "Hobby farm" (what is that really, I started with animals when I was 4, and never looked back, remember going to sleep and forgot I had mice in my pocket! they were still with me when I got up next morning.. I loved them)...
2 acres tops, the best we could do with our other requirements...all our dogs are farm dogs... the worst (needed most work was the giant schnauzer but now with the exception of stalking our rabbits, she is fine- and even the labradoodle we are dogsitting has a shocking amount of prey drive)-- 
whatever, I mean to say, prey drive notwithstanding most dogs will settle into the farm life (we have cats, chickens, ducks, geese, goats, and rabbits) and an understanding with the farm animals.
all our dogs go to puppy class, and have socialization (just makes for a well rounded dog)- and our pyreenes - anatolian pup grew up into a fine LGD- he went head to head with a cougar for a solid month (neighboring properties on both sides lost goats- 5 total) and we didnt, til finally someone shot it killing one of their prize goat (I kinda liked our solution better, the dogs do a good job of warding predators away from our property)... 
Its something he gravitates to naturally- the most he will do is goto the dog beds in the garage sometimes but he is up and out at the first whisper of trouble (the geese are good alert animals).... 
Ok going on too long I think, but I hope this helps...
(He did eat a chicken at 6 months, and had an unfortuante dalliance with a nanny goat at 16months- the neuter seems to have done the trick though... )....
Good luck
and of course here is my favorite LGD website/breeder- when we are ready for our next one this is where we are going!

http://www.lgdnevada.com/For_Novice_LGD_Owners.html


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

natedlee said:


> The question about a "farm dog" or LGD... What would you say the difference is? I want a responsible dog that has a job rather than a rambunctious animal that requires a lot of attention. But maybe I'd be happy with a dog that is content staying outside and with the animals too - and not highly trained


The holy grail of dogs...protects animals, but doesn't roam, and doesn't need training. 

I would imagine you will have some significant training to put into this puppy, no matter what you want its job to be ("farm dog" or LGD). I would start by asking the breeder how they trained the parents as LGDs (assuming that is what they do for their "job?") I know too many "farm dogs" that really don't have any training, and aren't very reliable - to stay on the farm, or to protect the livestock. 

Genetics are important; I assume that the mom and dad have something special about them to make you want the puppy - so I'd ask the breeder about their training -- how much of that was instinct, and how much was training...and how did they train them? I don't have a farm dog, but have a hunting breed. The instinct makes them want to hunt, but without training they only hunt for themselves, not for their handler.


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

I am not an expert on the subject, but here is my opinion on what a Livestock Guardian is as compared to a farm dog. Neither of these is clear cut black and white definitions in my book. Either one can be what you need them to be to a point. 

There are breeds described as LGD's that have a history of being used for the purpose of guarding various livestock. They are generally bred for low prey drive, in order that they do not view livestock as prey or something to chase and kill for fun or food. This is not to say that with proper training and supervision a non LGD dog can not be used in the roll of a LGD. This will of course depend on your level of competence as a trainer and the individual dog.

NON-LGD dogs are generally bred for various reasons. Hunting breeds are bred for a high prey drive. Some breeds are bred simply for color, conformation and appearance. Some are bred for companion animals, so disposition and friendliness are the goal of the breeding. I see no need to re-invent the wheel by getting a dog bred for a different reason and trying to use them for something other than their intended purpose. I would not get a Anatolian and expect to make them into a squirrel dog any more than I would get a Treeing Walker and make them into a sheep guardian. Although admittedly both could probably be done given enough time and training and the right dog?

So what is the difference. In my opinion a true LGD is one that bonds with the animals they are charged to protect and relates to them as their pack above all other relationships. If they are around people fine, if they are around other dogs, fine, but that is not their main concern. Their main concern should be, I am a part of this (insert animal here, goat, pig, sheep, etc.)herd and I will stay with them and protect them against what I perceive as a threat.

A farm dog usually bonds with the people or owners and as a byproduct protects their territory or the territory they perceive as their home. They protect the livestock as a secondary goal, because they are protecting the area, but protecting the livestock is not their main goal. 

I am not down on either, that is just the difference I see. Someone who likes dogs and lives on a small acreage probably in all honesty is seeking more of a farm dog. Someone on a larger acreage who's main concern is raising livestock would be served well by a LGD.

BTW, a small acreage in my opinion is anything under 10 or 15 acres. Under 5 acres to me it is a no brainer, unless a person just wants a dog, proper fencing and electric fencing will provide protection for most any animal for much less expense and can be set up much quicker than dealing with a dog.

I just wanted to add one thing. As someone once told me, regardless of natural ability, if you take a dog home and feed it and allow it to do what it wants without proper training you will simply have a DOG. No matter what they are, if you have a specific job in mind it will take some amount of training to get a useful LGD.


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

I like what Muleman has to say! but, did want to add, the property to our right (they have 11acres) has some serious fencing and the goats were also behind electric fencing- they lost 4 goats from behind that fencing without a trace- thats what made me think mountain lion, and it was shot after it broke into the neighbor on the left's barn and had already killed one of his prize goats....
(the first neighbor borrowed 2 lgd pups- 6 months old -- and put them behind the electric fencing with the goats and that fixed that)...


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

CA chick, I understand your situation with Mtn. Lions and agree if they are present good fencing may not be a 100% solution. Most of the east coast as in east of the Mississippi do not really have to deal with these large predators. We have them here in Arkansas, but sightings are very infrequent as they are small populations. 

Nothing is 100%. That is why I say there are many grey areas when it comes to LGD's and the need or (not need) for them. Much of the NEED will be based on your location. Where I live I could do without my LGD and probably never lose a piglet. However, my chickens would not fair so well, we have tried that before. Foxes and ***** will take their toll on chickens like we run them, which is free range 24/7.


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Muleman said:


> CA chick, I understand your situation with Mtn. Lions and agree if they are present good fencing may not be a 100% solution. Most of the east coast as in east of the Mississippi do not really have to deal with these large predators. We have them here in Arkansas, but sightings are very infrequent as they are small populations.
> 
> Nothing is 100%. That is why I say there are many grey areas when it comes to LGD's and the need or (not need) for them. Much of the NEED will be based on your location. Where I live I could do without my LGD and probably never lose a piglet. However, my chickens would not fair so well, we have tried that before. Foxes and ***** will take their toll on chickens like we run them, which is free range 24/7.


Hey Muleman, funny you should say ARKANSAS spent some maladjusted teenage years on the back side of the Petit Jean.... we had dogs and one goat... wish I had had the Forum back then - life would have been a whole lot easier....
sorry to digress couldnt resist...


I do love dogs, have to admit that, and the fact that they are useful, well whats to lose....


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