# While we're on the subject of..........



## Forerunner

.........sustainable housing.........

Has anyone here ever looked into the Mandan earth lodge of the Native plains/hill dwellers?

It is built from materials which can be had within a mile of multiple locales;
wholly sustainable;
green as a gourd;
super spacious;
extremely aesthetic, inside and out;
winter-proof;
summer-proof;
very durable;

....and just....plain....._cool_.......


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## tinknal

Looks similar to a Navajo Hogan. Some northern tribes lived in multi family longhouses in the winter. My guess that this lodge would be a community asset and not individual housing.


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## Pops2

tinknal said:


> Looks similar to a Navajo Hogan. Some northern tribes lived in multi family longhouses in the winter. My guess that this lodge would be a community asset and not individual housing.


For them it was. But if you wanted use one for a hunting cabin or barn, you wouldn't be required to share it with your neighbors.


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## Forerunner

In my youth, I recall having seen pictures of these with the horses living inside with the family.
I agree that the structure would be entirely suitable for extended family, and there are representations of villages made up of many multiples of this design.
I suppose one could build smaller to suit one's resource and energy levels.

Imagine what a man might do with a chainsaw, post hole digger and front end loader......and maybe even a steel draw knife.


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## Forerunner

Found it, I think......











Another interior shot.


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## tinknal

Forerunner said:


> Imagine what a man might do with a chainsaw, post hole digger and front end loader......and maybe even a steel draw knife.


Don't forget the sod plow!


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## wes917

Forerunner said:


> Imagine what a man might do with a chainsaw, post hole digger and front end loader......and maybe even a steel draw knife.



I think it would look like this. www.simondale.net


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## Ozarks Tom

I wonder what the HOA would think of it.


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## Sawmill Jim

Ozarks Tom said:


> I wonder what the HOA would think of it.


Grass on top couldn't be over 3'' high :happy2:


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## tinknal

Any idea what the layer of material between the rafters and the sod is?


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## GoldenCityMuse

Earth sheltered housing. How long would the untreated posts last in a moist environ.?

Certainly it could be done, but I don't think my wife will agree to live in one like that with me.

Toilet?
Running water?

I imagine it has a lot of yearly upkeep involved. Substitute concrete block and cement for the structural part, and it would be good.


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## jwal10

I am glad we have evolved (housing any way). Looks dark and dirty to me, damp here too. I like windows and more than a dirt floor, Thanks....James


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## Forerunner

The fire and several inches above ground level floor of the thing would keep it much drier than one might suspect.


ETA...... I lived in a canvas tipi all of one Michigan summer and that had much more exposure to the weather than an earth lodge.
The fire and logistics of the thing kept me dry, even without a liner. The wicking action of the natural materials, fire and constant air flow would keep an earth lodge so constructed quite livable for humidity.

I, too, wonder about the layer between the poles and the earth. 
Grass, maybe ?

Running water ?
Simple enough.....tie into a spring and lay in black plastic pipe and a hydrant, right next to the fire, if you like. 

Toilet would be the sawdust variety, set in an enclosed area out of the way.

Floor needn't be dirt, but gravel...or even concrete..... or pallets with a layer of wood and carpet, if yer whipped, like that. :grin:


I post this for after the apocalypse.

Momma may not be so particular by that time, and Lowes/Home Depot may have closed their doors.

That said, if I ever rebuild, this will be it.

Those poles would last a long time in the dry, like that, especially if they were hedge, locust or cedar. White oak would do in a pinch. Got no experience with woods in other locales. :shrug:


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## GarlicGirl

I was looking at the second picture posted and wondering if that layer between the poles and earth was perhaps bark. Also, wondering how the roof poles were attached. Seems like they would slide off if not attached somehow. Personally, I enjoy seeing all ideas of housing such as this. After all, these people had hundreds of years to figure out what worked. We may not have that luxury, so why not check it out now. Thanks for posting, Forerunner.


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## Ozarks Tom

My Dad was born in 1898, and lived in ND for his first 8 years in a sod house. I wish now I'd asked him about it. He was the oldest of 10 kids, so there must have been about 8 people living there. I guess adding on to a sod house would just consist of cutting more sod.


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## Buffy in Dallas

jwal10 said:


> I am glad we have evolved (housing any way). Looks dark and dirty to me, damp here too. I like windows and more than a dirt floor, Thanks....James


Have we really evolved? Can you imagine living in your average mcmansion without elect, running water, gas? One little power outage and that mcmansion turns into a death trap.

When the manure hits the fan (and it always does eventually) I would much rather be in one of these! Don't like a dirt floor? use pave stones. want more light? add a window. 

I'm planning on using plastic pond liner on the underground house I have planned. If TSHTF before I get finished I'm sure there is a more natural solution.

Does anyone know a website that shows detailed building info on these earth lodges?


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## Forerunner

Tom, I've wondered about those sod houses, too.

Word has it that "Ma" couldn't wait to get out of that sod house and in to the "modern" clapboard, uninsulated stick-built.....where they invariably nearly froze to death come the winters, after having been spoiled by the cozy interior of the sod/dugout structures.


Garlic-G....... A good woman with an axe and a sense of imagination would be able to notch those poles in, just so. :thumb:


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## Pops2

Anyone know if the uprights are planted like a fence post?


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## Forerunner

I'd sure plant em, so.

I've got enough experience building sheds and my own barn to know that there are a lot of positive physics that could be applied to add strength and durability to one of these things.

Setting those big poles in the ground four or five feet would make the whole of construction much simpler, as well as add tons of stability.

Much smaller versions could also be built.....and that much faster and with less weight to account for.


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## Pops2

Yeah, I was also thinking of heavy gauge rebar as pins to slide the crossbeam over to help hold them in place. All in all I think you could make a nice hunting cabin from this concept. Put a rear hall similar to the front leading to a full bathroom & a generator "room" or porch with exhaust vented to the outside, a raised fire pit in the center with a heat exchanger under to warm your hot water & a "regular" door in the front.


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## Forerunner

I'm thinking build next to, and up against a hill, and then dig into the hill and shore up for an in-house root and wine cellar.
A hill on one side, or even two if such a spot were to be had, would offer tons of stability and reduce the amount of labor and materials needed to complete the project.
.....and if that hill was on the north, and maybe west sides, there would be more wind protection and a nice south or east facing front. 

I mean, just cuz we're savages doesn't mean we can't live comfortable. :shrug:


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## Jim-mi

I find it fun to think that while home despot is still open that I could / would put together an order for a good sized truck load of pressure treated materials so as to build something very similar and not be concerned about rot.

Can you imagine if the local permit Nazi stumbled apon your project-in-progress . . . . .LOL


I gotta think that a "underground" home has far more positives than negatives........



My great grand parents homesteded in a sod house out near Kearny(sp) Neb..


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## ladybug

What a super neat idea! I would love to live in something like this, and this Mama could care less about the amenities  Looks like that would make for a really fun project, any idea on how long something like this would take to build?


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## Forerunner

How energetic and ingenious are you and how many helping hands do you have ? 

I bet if it's toward the end of September in midwest or further north, and you had three or four sets of willing hands and materials, a shelter of ample space and durability could be put together not too long after the first frost. :thumb:


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## jwal10

I don't see many sticking too this method. Most people would never get it done, same as today. They keep adding and adding, wanting everything they have now. I can construct and enclose a 450 sq. ft. conventional home in 14 days, ready to move into, all by myself. Inside finish in my spare time in 3-4 weeks. Nice, neat, well insulated, modern amenities. Even off grid if I like. Most of these type buildings were built that way because of little wood around and no dimensional lumber. I can always find recycled wood, anywhere today....James


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## Forerunner

Agreed, James.

We think alike, to some degree, while materials are available.

But, the Mandan lodge looks to me like about the best thing going in the event of major setback to civilization as we know it.


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## jd4020

Hey FR,
The picture you post is very much like the example of the Pawnee earth lodge exhibit at the Field museum. Perhaps the lodges are all very similiar although different tribes? Information says it was built in 1977 with the assistance of the Pawnee tribe.
I know, I know, so sad I can't see one for real, that is the only example I have ever seen, while at the museum. I would love to have a home such as that. Even though it's at the museum, when I walked into it, I felt as if I had come home and I wanted to stay. It would be 10x's better if it were the real thing. And yes, I would probably make room for the horses as well.  We camp more primitive (a cow pasture with a crik running through it) so this would be high living indeed. lol Thanks for sharing.
God bless,
jd


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## GoldenCityMuse

> I post this for after the apocalypse.


Ah, that does make a difference in a persons [wifes] druthers.

Still , I have a preference for the Anasazi cliff dwellings myself. Pull up the ladders, no worry about surprise attacks.

Similar principle though as yours.

More recently, Acoma Pueblo was never conquered, even by US Army. Can't seem to find the reference.


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## Forerunner

JD, I recall my senior trip, late winter, early 1985.....we went to Chicago to the Museum of Natural History, or some such.

At that time, I was as steeped in Native American culture as could be and had amassed no small number of books addressing that topic in just about every particular.
My large "Mystic Warriors of the Plains", by Thomas E. Mails was, if I recall correctly, my first introduction to the Mandan lodge, and the pictures fascinated me.

Imagine my euphoria to walk into the Native American section of that museum, only to see a full-sized and authentic built Mandan lodge, the interior set up in detail, I suppose, as close to reality as they knew how......

I distinctly recall some classmate or another having to come back to some room, section or exhibit all of that day to fetch me on to the next, for I was always lagging behind taking in the details that others probably didn't know or care to look for.

Then there was the time the class went to a major university and the bus just about left without me at day's end cuz I was up in a room with several professors enjoying and discussing the particulars of their electron microscope........

I've just always been a troublemaker, that way. :ashamed:


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## Truckinguy

That's a great idea but I would think it would be best to put a wood stove with a chimney in the center instead of just a fire pit. Not that i"m an expert by any means  but from what I've read people who lived in these structures quite often developed emphysema and lung cancer because the smoke from the fire didn't draw very well up through the roof.

I would definitely live in something like that.


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## wildwanderer

we built something smaller but similar for group shelter in a winter survival class. I had seen it at the New York natural history museum, worked great the dirt packed down and it wasn't dirty or dusty. However the roof caught fire and we burned it down. Two wonderfully learning experiences. We had eight people sleeping in it with work space and two weeks worth of gear. Take care - Thea


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## Sandhills

That first picture looks like the lodge at Stuhr Museum in Grand Island Nebraska. I've been in that one several times. I've never noticed a musty smell. I've also been in a few different sod houses and all of them have been musty. The one had white washed walls and an attic. It was pretty nice inside. But it was still musty smelling. I'm guessing that it was too air tight.


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## jbo9

You might be able to find out more about the construction methods of the Mandan lodges by contacting the Fort Abraham Lincoln State Park in Mandan ND. I don't think that they set the posts very much, if at all. North Dakota may look nice and flat, but it is full of glacial boulders. Try to dig a post hole without any steel tools and you'll settle for a shallow hole and well-braced posts. As far as rot resistant posts, cedar is relatively common and does very well as fence posts.


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