# Anonymous Call Leads to Confiscation



## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

http://biggovernment.com/bmccarty/2...leads-to-raid-on-colorado-womans-rabbit-farm/

Quote from one of the comments:

"Debe Bell is not just the owner of a Rabbit Farmâ¦â¦Debe Bell is YOU and Iâ¦â¦."


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

An Anonymous call could even have come from a competing rabbit raising/showing farm....

I also think the "officials" dug a hole they could not gracefully save face and climb out of. It is likely too late to save any of her breeding stock; I wonder if she can recover monetary damages since she has a lawyer? I certainly hope so. If this is really how this all went down, no animal raiser is safe.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

sheesh. absolutely raises the blood pressure to read. Scary when others feel they are so more important than we are.


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## cshaw07 (Apr 4, 2011)

well, its 9:25 am and im officially ticked for the day.


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## TwosCompany (Jul 17, 2009)

OMGoodness, this makes me ANGRY. Those rabbits were better cared for than some of those "rescuers" pets I'm sure! There was no call for the treatment she and her stock received. Makes me want to make some phone calls. I can be, er, persistent... :teehee:


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## bassmaster17327 (Apr 6, 2011)

Everyone should contact that sherrif, if they get away with that it sets a president that they can do it to anyone. I always tell people that I guarantee that my show and meat rabbits are much healthier,happier and kept in cleaner conditions than most peoples pet rabbits that end up being left in dirty cages,fed colorful walmart food and sitting in their own waste


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_18598053

http://www.raising-rabbits.com/responsible-animal-owners-defense-trust.html

Several articles on google


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

A legal defense fund is being set up. Another article,

http://biggovernment.com/bmccarty/2...aid-on-colorado-womans-rabbit-farm/#idc-cover

Also another post on HT yesterday. Should this info be cross posted somewhere else?

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=408520


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

bassmaster17327 said:


> Everyone should contact that sherrif, if they get away with that it sets a president that they can do it to anyone. I always tell people that I guarantee that my show and meat rabbits are much healthier,happier and kept in cleaner conditions than most peoples pet rabbits that end up being left in dirty cages,fed colorful walmart food and sitting in their own waste


I think our efforts would be better spent sending donations to the woman's legal defense fund. Actual animal abuse cases need to be prosecuted. This case looks like a sheriff out for publicity. We need to act togther to see that the sheriff, if he acted improperly, gets nailed legally.


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

The sheriff committed a crime by entering the property without a warrant. So the evidence was obtained in an illegal way, and therefor is not usable in court. IMHO based on common law.

The issuance of a warrant based on a tip from an unidentified source smells bad too. Perhaps the judge could benefit from reading the constitution of the United States of America.

Sounds more like revenge or some kind of a scam.

The amount of damage could reach into the millions of dollars in a heartbeat. Just ask any first year law student.:smack


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## AprilW (Nov 25, 2007)

I feel terrible for the woman. I'm sure nothing was wrong with the way she kept her rabbits. 

On another forum I visit, we were discussing this situation and how each of us can prevent the same happening to us. I've decided to reduce the content on my webpage. If you guys sell rabbits, don't let anyone come to your home - meet buyers in a public place. If you give pedigrees with your rabbits, don't include your address. I don't even put my phone number on my peds. You only get my email address. Selling rabbits isn't my main concern so I don't even bother telling people I raise them.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

WTH? I can't believe its legal for them to just seize her property and then deny her due process by refusing to respond to her lawyer. 

I think there needs to be protesters marching around.


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## Kazahleenah (Nov 3, 2004)

Posted the links on my Facebook.
Will write letters today.
This infuriates me to no end!


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## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

It was linked on survivalblog.com http://bobmccarty.com/2011/08/10/an...leads-to-raid-on-colorado-womans-rabbit-farm/.

It is definately going to get a LOT of attention.

Another reason to not live in Colorado.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

AprilW said:


> I feel terrible for the woman. I'm sure nothing was wrong with the way she kept her rabbits.
> 
> On another forum I visit, we were discussing this situation and how each of us can prevent the same happening to us. I've decided to reduce the content on my webpage. If you guys sell rabbits, don't let anyone come to your home - meet buyers in a public place. If you give pedigrees with your rabbits, don't include your address. I don't even put my phone number on my peds. You only get my email address. Selling rabbits isn't my main concern so I don't even bother telling people I raise them.



The problem is, you shouldn't have to limit the content on your web page and such. This is suppose to be a free country. If we all lay down and hide, then we have given away that freedom. People are free to keep rabbits as pets. And they should be free to raise them and eat them to without fear of the gestapo showing up and confiscating their property. 

I don't raise rabbits anymore, but its a shame that there has to be a certain amount of fear factor in this country when raising animals. I don't think it should be okay to abuse animals. They should be fed,watered, provided relief from the hot sun and cold wind and not beaten. As long as those things are taken care of, then its nobodies business of you have two or two hundred animals or whether you keep them as pets or breed them and eat them. The animal rights people have the right to be vegan, and have just as much a right to not be vegan.


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## AprilW (Nov 25, 2007)

I don't disagree with you. I shouldn't have to hide the fact that I eat my rabbits or what have you. But the fact is, the more people who know what you're doing and where, the more likely authorities (or ARAs) will be involved - regardless if what you're doing is legal.


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## Pam6 (Apr 9, 2009)

Errr! Just makes my blood boil! I posted this link on my FB to yet again show the people how the gov't is systematically terrorizing small farmers with SWAT teams for the Big Ag businesses! 
I mean come on! An animal control person should have come out, looked over the conditions, and then given her time to correct any (which I doubt they would have found any) problems and then reinspected!! Where are OUR RIGHTS??


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

They have a FB page setup for her. "Save the Six Bell Rabbits" is a page that is pro-breeder.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

Or chickens.
Or turkeys.
Or pigs.

It is downright scary.
What if someone dimes on me and my poultry operation?
Or someone's two meat hogs?

If someone else in my area wants to take over the turkey poult business all they would have to do is just pick up the phone.
Shudders....


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

Where are our rights? Swirling in the toilet bowl. 

I don't understand how any of this is even possible in this country.


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## Reed77 (Mar 20, 2011)

Do you guys think she will be able to get her rabbits back? This is awful!!!


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## Dirk (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm going to be physically sick.

Going to install auto waterers the first chance I get. Then it's impossible to get framed by a charge of not providing water. 

Here is one where a man was threatened with a fine of $2000 for not watering his bees.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/mind_your_own_bees_ness_nyc_LB3t25aHHfTF1yrevgAQSO


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

Reed77 said:


> Do you guys think she will be able to get her rabbits back? This is awful!!!


Last update I saw, the AC was spaying and neutering them!

I didn't think AC could do anything with the animals without her going to court first!


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I just talked to Ms. Bell's lawyer, Elizabeth Kearney. A legal defense fund is being setup. The lawyer did not have the details yet. I would suggest folks be careful who they donate money to if they want to help Ms. Bell.


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## Countrygent51 (Jul 30, 2011)

How awful about this whole situation! In addition to anger, I bet she also feels some sense of public shame (I guess I would, as a person who doesn't have "run ins" with the law on any regular basis) to have people at work or elsewhere speculating about the accusations. How does one "prove yourself innocent' in the face of such charges? It just isn't fair!!


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

There was a dog breeder in Indiana who had a similar thing happen to him. 

http://ht.ly/2Bndw

http://www.free-online-veterinarian-advice.com/dog-breeder-files-5m-federal-lawsuit.html


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Countrygent51 said:


> How awful about this whole situation! In addition to anger, I bet she also feels some sense of public shame (I guess I would, as a person who doesn't have "run ins" with the law on any regular basis) to have people at work or elsewhere speculating about the accusations. How does one "prove yourself innocent' in the face of such charges? It just isn't fair!!


That is why anyone who harrassed Ms. Bell including law enforcement who went onto her property without a warrant needs to be sued.


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## tbishop (Nov 24, 2004)

Here's my view on this- 

The House Rabbit Society and the HSUS are money making entities who lobby on a national scale as well as local. They are very effective.

The ARBA is a national registry that does NOTHING TO ADDRESS IT'S members getting abused like this. To me, the ARBA, the AKC, any and every national registry, should band with the NRA and other like-minded organizations to fight back against these animal rights nazis. I was going to say, they are dividing and conquering, but there is no national organization of these so-called breeder registries. They sit and wait while their constituents get abused and stolen from. Are they hoping it'll die down eventually? It won't. We are weak and vulnerable.

Tim B.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

The federal option is alive and well. The county officials that persecuted Ms. Bell might have more on their hands than they know.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Now they can place them all as house pets where they can poop in a litter box, chew electrical wires and woodwork, get fat on an unbalanced diet of carrots and lettuce, while being terrorized by toddlers...But not before they ship them all off to be cut open and have their reproductive organs ripped out by some vet.

>>>> http://www.humanewatch.org/ <<<< 
^^^^^^^^^^Support It^^^^^^^^^^


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

tbishop - agree with you there. Having dealt with a few House Rabbit Society members, I can safely say that the ones I met were raving nutters.


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## Judith (Jan 10, 2003)

For heavens sake...rabbits are FOOD!!!! Next they will be taking away our egg layers cuz the eggs hurt there butts ...grrrrrr


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

Oh, lord, Judith, don't give them any ideas.


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## unregistered6474 (Apr 21, 2003)

What gets me is that they attack a woman running a small business, march in, and take all of her animals. Much, much worse cruelty occurs on large factory farms, and in battery cages, and feedlots. Yet because those operations are run by large corporations they get left alone and the authorities go after regular old individuals.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

I think we all need to know what to do if something like this happens to any of us.

http://www.ftcldf.org/farm-raids.html


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Yet some more unbelievable jack-booted-thug abuse of power:

http://chelseagreen.com/blogs/david...athogen-findings-drumbeat-against-raw-cheese/


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## Elsbet (Apr 2, 2009)

I am very upset by this. Very, very upset. One of the worst aspects of the whole thing to me is that these activists- private individuals- were allowed on this property along with the police. Those people have NO ONE to be accountable to. When I've dealt with animal rights types before, I've been struck by their illusions of grandeur and self-delusion- they just make stuff up about people and their animals. 

They had no business whatsoever being there. I would imagine that they were probably pointing out "deplorable conditions" to the police, who likely knew nothing about rabbit care and were trusting their judgment as "rabbit experts." Stupid, irresponsible, absolutely. From what was described, she seemed to have a pretty nice set up.
I so hope this woman will get back every cent worth of rabbits that she lost to this, and then some.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Elsbet said:


> I am very upset by this. Very, very upset. One of the worst aspects of the whole thing to me is that these activists- private individuals- were allowed on this property along with the police. Those people have NO ONE to be accountable to. When I've dealt with animal rights types before, I've been struck by their illusions of grandeur and self-delusion- they just make stuff up about people and their animals.
> 
> They had no business whatsoever being there. I would imagine that they were probably pointing out "deplorable conditions" to the police, who likely knew nothing about rabbit care and were trusting their judgment as "rabbit experts." Stupid, irresponsible, absolutely. From what was described, she seemed to have a pretty nice set up.
> I so hope this woman will get back every cent worth of rabbits that she lost to this, and then some.



I'm hoping it ends up as a million dollar law suit.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Darren said:


> I'm hoping it ends up as a million dollar law suit.


If it comes down to a lawsuit, they're going to need help building up their war chest.

If anyone can give even $5 or $10, I'm sure it would be appreciated. 

Anyone have a direct link for the collection? 

I raise my own food, so I'm in - whether I want to be or not. This is a fight none of us can afford to ignore.

Don't be a victim.
Don't be a witness.
Don't be a perp.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Pony said:


> If it comes down to a lawsuit, they're going to need help building up their war chest.
> 
> If anyone can give even $5 or $10, I'm sure it would be appreciated.
> 
> ...


I have talked to the lawyer and received email from her. I am now trying to contact the person via email who has started the trust for the Bell defense fund.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Have a friend in Denver who says what they are hearing on the local news and/or from the animal shelter is that there is "over 100 rabbits confiscated because they were running loose in the house with uncontrolled breeding" ... and they need donated crates to keep them in and volunteers to help take care of them.

Someone needs to be held accountable ... and truly, in a case like this, I do not think the anonymous caller should be protected. I can understand why the name is not released because of retaliation in actual abuse cases. However, I don't think law enforcement/ animal control should be able to act on anonymous information because in a situation like this, where the circumstances are not abusive, I think there should be a way that the victim in these situations have recourse to damages from the person that caused the problem.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

If anyone wants to donate to Ms. Bell's legal action, here's the link. I received an email from Ms. Bell this morning. *This is a chance for people who have a problem with out of control government to push back* by donating. If anyone would like a copy of the email, please PM me.

http://www.raising-rabbits.com/responsible-animal-owners-defense-trust.html


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## Reed77 (Mar 20, 2011)

Katlara said:


> What gets me is that they attack a woman running a small business, march in, and take all of her animals. Much, much worse cruelty occurs on large factory farms, and in battery cages, and feedlots. Yet because those operations are run by large corporations they get left alone and the authorities go after regular old individuals.


RIGHT? I wanted to say this, I just didn't know how!


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

SFM in KY said:


> Have a friend in Denver who says what they are hearing on the local news and/or from the animal shelter is that there is "over 100 rabbits confiscated because they were running loose in the house with uncontrolled breeding" ... and they need donated crates to keep them in and volunteers to help take care of them.


I wonder if it was a publicity stunt to draw support to animal control/shelter and the house rabbit society and of course the new 'hotline'. 

I personally think she'll not be charged and I hope she sues the pants off of them. But of course THAT won't make the news.


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## bowbuild (Aug 2, 2008)

F...ing cops!!! since when do you enter a property on a "tip" look around..... then get a search warrant?? Ilegal search/seizure would be my first complaint, and lawsuit. Unless you have a "reasonable" authority on animal care in a meat production it becomes a witch hunt. You can't bring PAWS or any other bunny hugging animal activists in to compare "pet" care to farmed animals for food. If they truly are not slanted tward animal huggers, those rabbits would have been sent to a processor........so they won't have to endure a slow death through deprevation of air through all the hugging! This crap is going to far!!! It will be a new show on animal planet before long......The bunny snachers....airing soon!!!


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

wolffeathers said:


> I wonder if it was a publicity stunt to draw support to animal control/shelter and the house rabbit society and of course the new 'hotline'.
> 
> I personally think she'll not be charged and I hope she sues the pants off of them. But of course THAT won't make the news.


If grant money was involved in setting up the hotline, the sheriff may have been looking for the big publicity payoff for justification.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Darren said:


> If anyone wants to donate to Ms. Bell's legal action, here's the link. I received an email from Ms. Bell this morning. *This is a chance for people who have a problem with out of control government to push back* by donating. If anyone would like a copy of the email, please PM me.
> 
> http://www.raising-rabbits.com/responsible-animal-owners-defense-trust.html


FANTASTIC! 

Let's get out there and plaster this EVERYWHERE. 

My friend, Sharon Zecchanelli, wrote a book, "First They Came For the Cows."

Now, it seems, they're coming for the rabbits. We have to do whatever is in our power to stand united against this incredible injustice.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Judith said:


> For heavens sake...rabbits are FOOD!!!! Next they will be taking away our egg layers cuz the eggs hurt there butts ...grrrrrr


they did take away a roo because he was miss two toenails at 8 years old


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

http://www.naiatrust.org/
http://www.naiaonline.org/


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

does this link work for anyone? it doesn't for me. 
it use to say that they charge $250 to $500 adoption fee for purebred/high sought after dogs.
http://www.foothillsanimalshelter.org/


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Pony said:


> FANTASTIC!
> 
> Let's get out there and plaster this EVERYWHERE.
> 
> ...


I agree. The word is slowly getting around. If people here spread the word on other sites that they regularly post, it would help. And if possible donate whether it's $5, $10 or whatever. The link goes to a website where you can donate via the internet. It also has an address that you can use to send a check or money order.

Many of us complain about government regulations. Here's a situation where the sheriff violated the law. If you want to do something, here's your chance.

http://www.raising-rabbits.com/responsible-animal-owners-defense-trust.html


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

SFM in KY said:


> Have a friend in Denver who says what they are hearing on the local news and/or from the animal shelter is that there is "over 100 rabbits confiscated because they were running loose in the house with uncontrolled breeding"


See now whats even crazier is if THAT is the excuse they used, since when is it illegal to have rabbits roaming in the house (that IS what they want afterall) and "uncontrolled breeding" is definately not illegal. Get ready guys, anyone who colony breeds rabbits could have the same happen, if that is the only excuse.


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## sandc (Apr 26, 2010)

I have been to the rabbitry they raided, it is only 20 minutes up the road. She is not kidding about knowing all of their names. Place was pretty clean. She probably had wild rabbits knocking on the door begging to be put into a cage.

I have dealt with an animal control agent here before that told me that not having a water container in the cage she considered the animal as having no water. This was right after I had installed an auto watering system on a new Bass cage setup.

Remember that common sense is not considered an asset when applying for a government job.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

*sigh* this is very scary for me. I also have rabbits in a shed and if you were to go there between the twice daily feeding/watering the rabbits could very well act 'starved' and 'dying of thirst'. Although usually twice a day is enough to make sure their crocks always have some water. 

My rabbits are VERY well cared for...but I think maybe the house rabbit society wouldn't think so. 


Well...anyway, my fiance that is out working in the oil field heard a snippet on the news today about this story and THOUGHT he heard them say the same town we live in. And today they were working on the cell phone tower so he couldnt get ahold of me. He called and left a message in a frazzle saying "Don't worry baby! We can hire my dads lawyer!"

Oh for heaven sakes. He was having fits for 2 hours before he realized it wasn't our rabbits (we are up in northern canada!). He knows they are well taken care of, but he also knows sometimes the 'authorities' are crazy.


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## Mark Twain (Mar 29, 2010)

This whole incident is reminiscent of the gestapo tactics of WW11.
The accuser remains anonymous and actually gets PAID $2000 by crime stoppers.
Protection from unwarranted search and seizure, totally violated.
Insult on top of injury... as a Jefferson County resident I'm forced to pay to neuter the rabbits the sheriff stole!
I have one more year before I can retire and move back to Missouri full time.
The Californians can have the place, they already ruined their state and Colorado is next.


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## tojo66 (Apr 9, 2011)

tailwagging said:


> does this link work for anyone? it doesn't for me.
> it use to say that they charge $250 to $500 adoption fee for purebred/high sought after dogs.
> http://www.foothillsanimalshelter.org/


I wasn't able to access it before today but it appears to be working now.


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

tojo66 said:


> I wasn't able to access it before today but it appears to be working now.


http://www.foothillsanimalshelter.org/wp-content/uploads/RABBIT-UPDATE.pdf

interview and application for adoption?? gag, no one ever told them not to play with their food.


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

Can the poor 4-H kids "adopt" back their rabbits? And does the fair allowed neutered rabbits to be judged? This is ridiculous!


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## AprilW (Nov 25, 2007)

This link contains photos of the lady's set up. If they are accurate, I no longer feel bad for her. http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/28896658/detail.html


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

AprilW said:


> This link contains photos of the lady's set up. If they are accurate, I no longer feel bad for her. http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/28896658/detail.html


This was exactly what I was waiting to see before jumping on the hang-the-local-LEOs bandwagon. Of course this lady is going to say her rabbits were well taken care of. No one wants to make a statement to the media calling themselves bad stewards of their livestock. This happens all the time in the horse world, someone's horses get confiscated they make a big fuss about how the horses were fine, etc, everyone gets their hackles up and then the pictures of the animals and their stalls, paddocks, etc come out. :shrug:


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

AprilW said:


> This link contains photos of the lady's set up. If they are accurate, I no longer feel bad for her. http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/28896658/detail.html


That is the propaganda put out by the sheriff. First they went on her property illegally without a warrant. They went into her barn which was cooled to a temperature below the 84 degrees that they recorded hours later after they had left the doors open during a day with temperatures over 90 degrees. They also turned the water off to the cooler and shut down one of the fans. 

The rabbits were in regular wire cages with the pans below the cages to collect waste. The waste was not above the floor level of the cages. The rabbits were always checked at least twice a day. they were not running loose in a house breeding as one news report said.

The woman has won prizes at the state and national levels for years. You can't do that with unhealthy animals. The 4-H kids were regular visitors. The Denver news did an excellent report on her about three years ago and was very complimentary about her setup.

The person who called in the complaint had been there over a year ago. They got around to complaining after the sheriff's hotline started offering $2,000 per tip recently.

The woman was railroaded anyway you look at it. When they stole the rabbits they put them in pet carriers and boxes where they sat in two hot horse trailers for several hours in solid floor pet carriers in their own urine and feces. It's no wonder by the time they got to the holding facility their hair was matted and they stunk.

The one rabbit at Bell's that had matted hair had been given to her recently to take care of by a person who couldn't. In one case kits were wrapped up in a towel, placed in a pet carrier, then the mother was placed on top of them even when Bell told the animal control people they had just given the babies a death sentence.

The people who ended up with the rabbits in the holding area, had so much trouble caring for the rabbits in pet carriers, they apparently could not take adequate care of them.

There are four threads on this site with links to factual info. I suggest you check them out before you buy into the Gestapo sheriff's malarky.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

This is an older video that was made by the Denver Post during an interview at Debe Bell's rabbitry. You can see the condition of some of the rabbits for yourself. Now imagine all of the rabbits drug out of a shady cooled barn, until the doors were left open and the water turned off, and left in boxes and pet carriers in hot horse trailers for several hours.

http://videocenter.denverpost.com/services/player/bcpid934052406?bctid=1442318630


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## HendricksHearth (Jul 18, 2009)

I'm sorry, but I must respectfully disagree. Propaganda or not, her set-up was atrocious. I'm glad you posted that older video Darren because it confirms that the recent pictures posted are of her actual barn, too- and there is no reason for it to have looked like it did aside from gross neglect. 

It is easy for people to get overwhelmed when they have too many animals and she obviously was. You can argue about the situation surrounding the confiscation, the lack of due process, what happened after the seizure, etc. all day long if you wish and I am not saying a thing about that side of it, but I'm sorry- those animals should not have had to live like that. 

Lauren


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## Elsbet (Apr 2, 2009)

I wish I hadn't said anything earlier. 
The pictures shown clearly showed feces above the floor level of the cage. There were multiple angoras shown with matted hair, not just one. The pain that causes rabbits is unreal- I've taken in angoras before from people that kept them as pets and didn't understand grooming- I called them "Turtle rabbits" because I literally had to remove a shell of hair from their bodies. Because the animals hadn't been regularly groomed and trained to it, it usually took at least one other person to restrain them while I clipped fur away. Sometimes those rabbits had to be put down, simply because once they were able to move again with the mats removed, I couldn't keep them calm and still enough to groom- they hadn't been trained to it. I'd be willing to bet that someone is going to have a lot of work cleaning those buns up, and might still lose the rabbit. 
The feces shown in those cages wasn't the pile up of a normal day's mess. Some of those piles were half composted by the looks of it.  And rabbits should be checked more than just twice a day for water if they are being watered out of crocks.
This makes me sad.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

HendricksHearth said:


> I'm sorry, but I must respectfully disagree. Propaganda or not, her set-up was atrocious. I'm glad you posted that older video Darren because it confirms that the recent pictures posted are of her actual barn, too- and there is no reason for it to have looked like it did aside from gross neglect.
> 
> It is easy for people to get overwhelmed when they have too many animals and she obviously was. You can argue about the situation surrounding the confiscation, the lack of due process, what happened after the seizure, etc. all day long if you wish and I am not saying a thing about that side of it, but I'm sorry- those animals should not have had to live like that.
> 
> Lauren


I'm not going to argue with that. I've had watering bowls get fouled with other animals. I don't keep rabbits. It does take attention to keep animals clean and the bowls clean. 

With the multiple tier cages it would be hard looking to check the condition in the higher cages shown in the pictures. There's also pictures showing the rabbits being removed where they looked fine. If that was the worst of the pictures, with a setup holding about 160 rabbits, I'm still willing to give the woman the benefit of the doubt.

If anything, given the fact that the rabbits were subsequently housed in pet carriers, the sheriff made things worse. There's no way you can keep an animal from upsetting a water bowl in one of those. That means the bowl of water gets added to the urine and feces on the floor of the carrier. 

Keeping any animal in a pet carrier long term is a nightmare to keep clean. While the carriers have built in troughs around the perimeter, the floor still gets wet and sticky. That means the animal's fur gets messed up fast. 

The sheriff should have given her a citation for any problems found and given her time to clean up any issues rather than putting the rabbits in a situation where it caused them to be in direct contact with their own waste as soon as it was voided. 

In those carriers there is no possibility of the rabbits getting away from their own waste like they can in a wire cage. With long haired rabbits, that must have been a real mess in their new location where that was the only way of housing them,

When they wrapped kits in a towel, placed them in a pet carrier, and then placed the mother on top of them, I suspect the kits died. Putting those long haired rabbits in hot horse trailers for hours must have resulted in deaths. Everything associated with the raid on the sheriff's part was done poorly at best.

I've been around enough livestock to understand reality. Removing the manure pack that accumulated over winter in a barn would probably send animal rights groups into orbit. 

There is a mention of Bell having custody of one rabbit given her by another individual because it had matted fur. Bell was interviewed on a Denver Radio show yesterday, I will be interesting to see how it goes today.


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## dunroven (Dec 6, 2004)

I still gave to her defense fund. This has more to do with what the cops can and can't do than what really happened here. I am a victim of a such a thing almost happening. We give school tours on our farm. My husband is a pastor. Another pastor's wife called and asked if she could bring her sunday school class for a tour. Sure, we said.

She came, the day was rainy and muddy, of course, early spring. We warned her to have the kids wear "not good" shoes, farms get muddy.

We had just a few weeks earlier bought cornish cross chickens.

The tour went well, kids held baby goats and rabbits and we talked about chickens. They left.

Next day, up pulls the sheriff, except he was walking around the property BEFORE he let us know he was here. We went out and there he was. Hi folks, I got a report of animal abuse. Mind showing me your farm. WHAT????? Oh by the way, I did a walk through on my own and I just need to confirm a couple of things.

Well, it came down to the fact that the cornish cross did not have feathers all over every little body out there, and this nice pastor's wife called the sheriff and told them that we were plucking our chickens while they were still alive!

Evidence: The chickens had few feathers and there were a few feathers laying on the ground.

He laughed because he knew exactly what cornish cross broilers are like and he knew us.

BUT, this could have turned out much more disastrous. He said if anything our animals looked fat and lazy. He filed his report and on he went. The point is folks, our sheriff didn't have a warrant either, BUT, he was given probable cause and he could come onto our property to "investigate." His eyes then become the evidence needed for a warrant after that fact.

If you are gone, they can come and go and you don't even know about it. It ALL should stop, probable cause or NOT.

Just my 2 cents


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

dunroven said:


> I still gave to her defense fund. This has more to do with what the cops can and can't do than what really happened here. I am a victim of a such a thing almost happening. We give school tours on our farm. My husband is a pastor. Another pastor's wife called and asked if she could bring her sunday school class for a tour. Sure, we said.
> 
> She came, the day was rainy and muddy, of course, early spring. We warned her to have the kids wear "not good" shoes, farms get muddy.
> 
> ...


This is what I'm talking about.

Due process was NOT followed. There was no warrant, nothing. They had plenty of time to assemble people for the raid, but none to follow the rule of the law?

Poppycock and balderdash.

They take more care when arresting murderers. Their flagrant bypassing of due process is appalling and wrong, wrong, wrong.

It's not about livestock - and really, folks, that is what rabbits are, LIVESTOCK. 

It's about our Constitutional rights. 

Period.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Pony said:


> This is what I'm talking about.
> 
> Due process was NOT followed. There was no warrant, nothing. They had plenty of time to assemble people for the raid, but none to follow the rule of the law?
> 
> ...


I agree 100%. That's why I donated and will do so again when I can afford it.


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## dunroven (Dec 6, 2004)

And this can and does extend to other areas of our life. Folks this is ABSOLUTELY about sticking up for our rights. See you let one thing go an inch, and then EVERYTHING goes a mile. Please let's help stop the minority, which is truly who these things come from, from robbing us of our rights.

Its the silent majority who sits on their butts and wrings their hands that causes us to lose rights and privileges. We're going downhill folks in all avenues of life. Let's try to get this stopped. Lets send a message.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

For those folks that don't mind the sheriff entering their property without a search warrant, don't read any further. If you want to stop out of control government, this is your chance. The link goes to a website were you can donate via paypal or send a check or money order to a mailing address. If you send a check or money order, make it out to: Responsible Animal Owners Legal Defense Trust

http://www.raising-rabbits.com/responsible-animal-owners-defense-trust.html


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## AprilW (Nov 25, 2007)

I am not arguing Darren that what occurred with the police was right. I completely agree that they should have had a warrant before stepping into her barn. I would be extremely angry if cops and ARAs stepped onto my property without my consent or a warrant. However, after seeing photos of how the rabbits were being kept, I don't feel bad for the woman having her rabbits confiscated. That is neglect, pure and simple.

There is absolutely no reason that a cage should have poop on the *wire* floor like that! If it does collect in the corner, then that breeder needs to scrub it out at the very *least* once a week. There is also no reason that an Angora should be matted like that. A rabbit's coat won't get THAT matted from sitting in a carrier for a couple of hours.


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## HendricksHearth (Jul 18, 2009)

I don't disagree with a lot of what you all are saying as far as legality is concerned and I agree that rabbits are livestock, etc., but that doesn't mean that people should raise rabbits in deplorable conditions and that should be okay. The thing is.. it is called the Responsible Animal Owners Legal Defense Trust. From the website that was linked, "The main focus of the Bell Project is to raise funds for Ms. Bellâs attorney fees so that she can hold these people accountable for their disregard for the law as well as prove that they were unjustified in their actions to take these rabbits from her."

From my point of view, the law was disregarded on law enforcement's side in part.. but it was also disregarded on Ms. Belle's side and she had a responsibility that she failed to uphold, too. Do you think all of those rabbits would have been seized that day if conditions were clean and clear in her barn? I don't think so personally. From the pictures and information, Ms. Belle is NOT a responsible animal owner, period. Again, filth like that takes a while to accumulate. This is not a few days or a week missed kind of thing- this is a long-term problem that she failed to handle. And by doing so, she makes ALL of us look bad with those disgusting feces-filled cages, etc. and I will not support that. Now.. if her barn was clean and her animals were in good shape then it would be a different story. But it wasn't, so sorry.. I guess we have to agree to disagree. 

Lauren


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

AprilW said:


> I am not arguing Darren that what occurred with the police was right. I completely agree that they should have had a warrant before stepping into her barn. I would be extremely angry if cops and ARAs stepped onto my property without my consent or a warrant. However, after seeing photos of how the rabbits were being kept, I don't feel bad for the woman having her rabbits confiscated. That is neglect, pure and simple.
> 
> There is absolutely no reason that a cage should have poop on the *wire* floor like that! If it does collect in the corner, then that breeder needs to scrub it out at the very *least* once a week. There is also no reason that an Angora should be matted like that. A rabbit's coat won't get THAT matted from sitting in a carrier for a couple of hours.


The past two days, Debe Bell went on the radio to talk about what happened and answer callers. I've listened to all of the podcasts. The Angoras came from California. Those were given to her to salvage. They were destined to be processed for food that week. The cages are cleaned on the weekends. The photos that were posted were the worst the sheriff had.

Bell stated on the radio that she had video of the rabbit house volunteers who tresspassed on her property saying how great the rabbits they were holding looked. If I was guilty of animal cruelty and the sheriff had real evidence, I wouldn't go on the radio two days in a row and answer callers.

One of the radio hosts said that in his experience, most folks that would answer to the public were either being straight with people or crazy. The others would never return calls much less go on a live radio show and subject themselves to questioning. 

I don't see how a person can win that many state and national championships and mistreat her animals.

As far as I've seen in my years of posting on HT, the folks here are fair. It's easy to gte caught up in emotional issues. Animal cruelty is one of those. For those who want more info, this is a link to the podcasts of the Peter Boyle Show on KHOW in Denver.

http://www.khow.com/cc-common/podcast/single_page.html?podcast=fullshow_boyles


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## AprilW (Nov 25, 2007)

Previously you stated that you don't keep rabbits. Well I do and I can attest to the fact that a cage isn't going to accumulate that much feces in one week's time. So her statement that she cleans on the weekends isn't holding water with me. Those may be the worst pictures, but I still cannot justify it in my mind to let a rabbit's cage look like that. The excuse that she had over 100 rabbits doesn't sit with me either. If she couldn't care for them all, she doesn't need that many.

"Maybe" the Angoras did come from California. How long had they been there? If they were suffering - as any rabbit would be with mats like that - why didn't she dispatch them immediately?

Why doesn't she share this video of the ARAs saying her rabbits look good?

I'm not looking to argue, but these are things I am thinking about when you say we should aid her defense.


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## HendricksHearth (Jul 18, 2009)

I agree with April. IF that is true about the Angoras, then she took them from California and tossed them in cages with the rest of her herd until she got around to it? Not good from several angles. Those cages hadn't been cleaned in quite some time- possibly months. I'm glad those were the worst photos they had because they were awful. 

I know you don't keep rabbits and you are obviously giving her the benefit of the doubt, but trust me- it is very easy to keep rabbits clean and dry in an all-wire set-up. You just clean the tray (few min tops) when needed, dump the food and water. Occasionally scrub the wire or torch it if there is any mild accumulation. No big deal normally, but the owner just dropped the ball.. apparently repeatedly over a period of time. No excuses for cages like that. The whole point of wire is to let the waste fall through, but it doesn't work when there is so much waste underneath that there is no where for it to fall. 

Please don't be fooled by the show wins- that does not say anything about the care at home unfortunately and that has been an issue with show dog/horse/etc. breeders, too.

Take care,

Lauren


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

AprilW said:


> Previously you stated that you don't keep rabbits. Well I do and I can attest to the fact that a cage isn't going to accumulate that much feces in one week's time. So her statement that she cleans on the weekends isn't holding water with me. Those may be the worst pictures, but I still cannot justify it in my mind to let a rabbit's cage look like that. The excuse that she had over 100 rabbits doesn't sit with me either. If she couldn't care for them all, she doesn't need that many.
> 
> "Maybe" the Angoras did come from California. How long had they been there? If they were suffering - as any rabbit would be with mats like that - why didn't she dispatch them immediately?
> 
> ...


The video was just mentioned this morning on the radio show. I haven't seen it posted anywhere yet. You're correct, I do not have rabbits. 

I've had a cat living in a pen for an extended period because of an eye injury I'm treating. She's currently in the house but she is not house broken. So she lives in the pen which has a slide out plastic pan. 

I've got the pen tilted so the urine runs to one corner. When I have to clean the cage, which is a couple times a day, she is placed in an pet carrier. When she decides to "use" the pet carrier I get to clean the cat and the carrier.

The rabbits that were stolen from Bell were placed in pet carriers. Where they were once on wire and not setting in urine, now they have worse living conditions.

I can't comment on the piles of feces other than to ask if my understanding that the feces are virtually oderless is correct.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

Darren said:


> I can't comment on the piles of feces other than to ask if my understanding that the feces are virtually oderless is correct.


Ummm, no. It's feces. It smells. Rabbit poop is one of the least smelly of all, but it is still poop. It smells. And the urine that was undoubtedly mixed in with all that manure smells too. It also attracts flies. My kids have house bunnies (we are NOT House Bunny Society member :run: ), each bunny has a litter box, if it goes a day without cleaning it attracts flies and there _is_ a smell to it. It's not strong with the little bit that is accumulated from one rabbit in one day, but with that many rabbits and having not been cleaned out for THAT long (I agree with the poster who said it was probably more like months than weeks) there was undoubtedly a pretty bad smell in there.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

HendricksHearth said:


> I don't disagree with a lot of what you all are saying as far as legality is concerned and I agree that rabbits are livestock, etc., but that doesn't mean that people should raise rabbits in deplorable conditions and that should be okay. The thing is.. it is called the Responsible Animal Owners Legal Defense Trust. From the website that was linked, "The main focus of the Bell Project is to raise funds for Ms. Bell&#8217;s attorney fees so that she can hold these people accountable for their disregard for the law as well as prove that they were unjustified in their actions to take these rabbits from her."
> 
> From my point of view, the law was disregarded on law enforcement's side in part.. but it was also disregarded on Ms. Belle's side and she had a responsibility that she failed to uphold, too. *Do you think all of those rabbits would have been seized that day if conditions were clean and clear in her barn? I don't think so personally.* From the pictures and information, Ms. Belle is NOT a responsible animal owner, period. Again, filth like that takes a while to accumulate. This is not a few days or a week missed kind of thing- this is a long-term problem that she failed to handle. And by doing so, she makes ALL of us look bad with those disgusting feces-filled cages, etc. and I will not support that. Now.. if her barn was clean and her animals were in good shape then it would be a different story. But it wasn't, so sorry.. I guess we have to agree to disagree.
> 
> Lauren


I think they would have. from what i understand they had everything ready to take them. horse trailers there before getting the warrant or even seeing them.


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

I gave to her legal fund as well. Whether or not her animals were properly taken care of is not my issue here. If these cops were on her property without a warrant, that is a HUGE issue.

If the conditions were bad, get a warrant and return. Go through the proper legal process.


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## Elsbet (Apr 2, 2009)

Oh, piles like that do stink! I've privately taken in a lot of rabbits over the years, and the smell that came back to my memory after seeing those pictures was not pleasant.
In a well run rabbitry, there's going to be less odor, but still some. When I've seen those piles like that, the ammonia in the air is usually enough to set off coughing fits, and it is not good for rabbits which have very vulnerable respiratory systems.

Piles like that rot out the cage floors fast, too, leaving broken wire to snag on skin and eyes.

I still think that the process that the police used was wrong- perhaps criminal, and we DO need to protest the law being broken, but those rabbits were definitely being mistreated, and I wouldn't put one penny toward this woman's defense now. When people treat animals like this, it gives "the other side" a lot of ammunition toward eroding everyone's rights.

I'm wondering if guilds should be formed for animal owners- legal defense associations that people can voluntarily join. You'd have to agree to keep your animals at a certain standard in order to qualify for legal coverage, and allow inspections by a board of directors or their appointees on an agreed upon time. Sort of "self police" ourselves, creating a papertrail of photographic and written testimony on each member's set up that could be called upon in a case of illegal seizure... but members would be less likely to allow poor conditions to build up, because they would lose their membership if they did. 
Guilds can pay for a lot more than individuals can- not every individual would need the coverage, but you never know who WILL. But no matter what the rights issues are, I won't put money toward defending someone who was negligent.


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## dunroven (Dec 6, 2004)

And I didn't think I saw anything abusive. I have had angoras before, and if you don't brush them every day, oh yes they do get matted. That's exactly why I don't keep them, and a rabbit can poop a pretty good pile each day. My cages are hanging, and the poop drops below, but they still ALWAYS manage to get a good corner amount in just a very few days. I work through the week and clean on the weekends. I don't have quite as much as she does, but please remember this. Rabbits pick one area to poop in and to urinate it, and it builds up. You WILL have this kind of thing in a cage with a tray under it, if you leave it for up to 5 or 6 days. They DO have that much. Yep, there will be the smell of amonia, but rabbit poop is NOT smelly. Keep a pig around. NOW THAT IS SMELLY. Rabbits are fine.

I disagree with those of you who call what she has as abuse. I think we go too far these days with the "abuse" card. Again my opinion. Your turn, blast away.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

I _do_ keep pigs, quite a few of them. Guess what: if you keep their quarters clean they don't stink much either.


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## dunroven (Dec 6, 2004)

operative word here is "much" LOL


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

You cannot possibly have poop without urine. Rabbits do not poop in one spot and pee in another. They pee on the poop and then the poop does smell. 

I will say it is possible to care for 200 rabbits adequately, if you devote enough time to them. The piles in the cages would take a while to build up. I've had piles before, not quite that bad, but they have been bad. Those occurred when nobody cared for the rabbits for several days other than food and water refilling. (when we had sitters while we were on vacation and the time I had pneumonia and the kids who were young at the time couldn't reach the corners of the cages)

The fan picture is the one that bothers me. When a fan is that gunk covered it will not help with air circulation. I do know that stuff builds up on the fan, we clean ours every couple weeks. But that is unreasonable, IMO.

And if she cleans the cages out only once a week and has no material in the trays to neutralize the ammonia the smell in that building would have been so bad that the sheriff would have had to leave the doors open to air out the building just so they could enter and check on the rabbits.

In spite of all that, I do believe the sheriff dept went over and above what they should do in order to investigate charges of neglect and cruelty. And I do believe they were going to take the rabbits no matter what they found. The fact that the HRS was involved speaks volumes. They are very rabid about not eating rabbits and would fabricate charges just to get rabbits away from a livestock situation. If you don't believe that about the HRS just check their website yourself.


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## dunroven (Dec 6, 2004)

Okay folks, you were seeing different pictures than I was. I was just shocked that you all found the pictures horrible. NOW, I went back and looked. There are 2 different links, and yes, I agree that the conditions in the cage with the rabbit manure piled up is absolutely wrong.

I was seeing the video where she was watering and holding the rabbits. I only saw one picture though of the manure in the pile and the story about the rabbits. Maybe there were more, but that's all that came up.

Says 5 dead rabbits in the freezer. Okay, now that I think should be totally discounted. Too many reasons for that, BRAT feeding, someone buying rabbits for BRAT feeding, disease, not cared for properly, etc. You get my meaning there.

I still stand solid on the fact that we have to stop folks from coming onto our farms and doing whatever the heck they want. Abuse is one thing, but abuse on both sides constitutes the old saying, 2 wrongs don't make a right. Let's do it right and get it right.

Again, apologize for not seeing there were 2 links. I just had to figure that one out.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

dunroven said:


> operative word here is "much" LOL


No, the operative word was clean.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

dunroven -- click on the one picture that comes up with the news story and it will open a slideshow of several pictures.


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## dunroven (Dec 6, 2004)

Yep, definite abuse there. That is not what happens with an angora if kept well.

I totally understand what you were seeing now. Yep this person probably should not have rabbits at all. Life got too busy for her to deal with them.

I still stand behind the poor way the sheriff and his department handled it. If we have to sneak around to catch folks, isn't that wrong as well? How do you know if someone is spying on you at this very moment?

Wouldn't you rather it be right out in the open and someone has to come forward and say, okay, we think you are abusing your animals, Here's a warrant. Let's prove that I'm wrong in my thinking. Show me that your animals are in great condition. Like we did with our animals, and even on the walk around without us, the sheriff, even though a friend, didn't tell us he was here and he found fat, happy, friendly animals.

Certain times of the year, the mud and gunk is bad here, we had a water line break and it was dug up and now for nearly 2-1/2 years, the trail to that building is a horrible mess. Anyone not knowing about what happened there would "assume" that we are having critters in horrible conditions, until they realize this is a trail to their building, not their place to stay, BUT my geese love to lay in that mud and just get absolutely dirty all over.

They also wouldn't realize that just beyond all of that mud and gunk, is a clean container of water for the geese to wash off in and they do!

I think the part that I am upset with is not the taking of the animals so much as the invasion of privacy and the not being upfront about this with this person. Could she have done differently if she were pressed on it? I'm sure she could have and maybe would have.

I think before jumping at the abuse button, we should ask folks if they might need some help with the critters so they won't get so bad, or a friend should have suggested (the 4-H people for instance) that maybe she should just cull her rabbits and be done with them?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

What gets me is that the sheriff won't show up on your property unannounced with people ready to take your critters and no warrant if the abuse is about dogs or cats but as soon as someone hollers "abuse" on livestock they are there with trailers ready to haul. We have had a rash of hoarding confiscations here lately and the police show up only to keep the peace after animal control or the humane society has completed their investigation. And those animals that are taken are in much worse condition than these rabbits. Dead animals in those confiscations are left laying in their filth and half decomposed, not skinned and in bags in the freezer.

IMO the sheriff in this case overstepped his bounds and regardless of how often the rabbit cages were cleaned they had no right to confiscate any of those animals without giving Ms. Bell her due process.


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## ilovehome (Sep 5, 2010)

But her rights and the rabbits could have been protected if they had only followed their own laws. Animal Control should have seized those animals in need of immediate vet attention, and left the rest of them until the hearing. They should have told to her clean up her act, and made several visits before the court hearing to determine if they needed to request custody of the rest of them. That would have protected the animals and Ms. Bell would have had her day in court.


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## Elsbet (Apr 2, 2009)

I absolutely agree that the LEOs overstepped what they were supposed to do, and that the law was broken, with as much as we know.
I have to wonder, though, after seeing those pics- what did it smell like outside? 200 rabbits penned up in those conditions, on one acre of land... the neighbors were probably complaining, too.

I just wonder if it was only one call that came in, or many. Even with the fact that this person's rights were disregarded, what about the rights of the people around her? An operation like that COULD be kept clean and nice, or it could be a nightmare for the neighborhood.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Elsbet said:


> I absolutely agree that the LEOs overstepped what they were supposed to do, and that the law was broken, with as much as we know.
> I have to wonder, though, after seeing those pics- what did it smell like outside? 200 rabbits penned up in those conditions, on one acre of land... the neighbors were probably complaining, too.
> 
> I just wonder if it was only one call that came in, or many. Even with the fact that this person's rights were disregarded, what about the rights of the people around her? An operation like that COULD be kept clean and nice, or it could be a nightmare for the neighborhood.


The property is zoned agricultural. I think she has close to an acre of land. The animal control officers at first mentioned she couldn't keep livestock. Bell then explained the zoning law to the officer. Things went downhill after that. Animal control has been there in the past and no problems were found. From the internet posts I've seen, her neighbors think highly of her. Quite a few people who know her personally have spoken up for her including people who live near her.

The radio show was an eye opener The first day the talk show host was pretty much in her corner. The second day after the pictures came out his attitude changed. By the end of the show he wasn't as concerned about the cage conditions.

What was stunning is how angry the callers were. You could tell some were ranchers with livestock operations. I thought one man was going to have a stroke on the air over the sheriff's actions. He was so mad he was yelling more than talking. None of the calls I listened to defended the sheriff, the rabbit house people or the animal control officers.

The sheriff bought himself a bunch of trouble by not following the law. Reports are that they autopsied the butchered rabbits they took from the freezer. The animal rights people who were originally involved have stopped giving the rabbits away. 

I suspect they realized they may be defendants in a lawsuit. With the theft of $17,000 worth of livestock, my guess is it's a felony. If the animals were in good enough condition to give away, that brings up the question of why they were seized.


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## Oregon Julie (Nov 9, 2006)

I am not going to address the was this neglect or not situation. I don't think any of us, unless we have been to her place very recently, have the ability to accurately judge. Keeping in mind that the cops at the recent Katrina related kills trial down in NO planted a gun on one of the victims makes me take everything from there on down with a grain of salt. 

However I am going to address something that I think many people don't realize. A law officer can "know" in their heart that I am say growing pot in my garage, but they cannot go into my garage without a search warrant, PERIOD. It is against the law. Now if they have reasonable cause to get the search warrant (extremely high power bill, inferred imaging which shows abnormally high temps, "reliable" witness who saw my pot grow operation, etc.) then they can go through the correct channels and get the warrant. They cannot knock down my door for no reason, see the pot, then get the search warrant after the fact. That is not how the law is written.

Now as to the way the law works in terms of animals, at least in the state of Oregon. If you have a 10 foot tall fence around your property and the cop thinks that you have a dog chained in the yard with no water, food, shelter, they cannot go onto the property unless they have actual knowledge of the animal being at risk or of abuse/neglect. They need the warrant. If they can see from the neighbors or a public area that an animal on your property is in need of help they do have the right to go onto your land without the warrant.

I know all of the above because we had a worthless SOB of a dog catcher in the county that I lived in who would take himself on self guided tours of our place every time he knew we would be away at work (just down the road from the county offices). He actually told me that he didn't need a search warrant when he was conducting an investigation. Thankfully for us the judge agreed with us and not with his twisted version of the law and found in our favor over and over again. 

Do note I say over and over again because we were cited for the same thing 4 times. We had to hire a lawyer and go to court 3 out of those 4 times. We won every time because we were not doing anything against the law. The last time we stood in front of a judge the judge actually asked him (the worthless dog catcher) if he was going to continue to harass us. He started to tell the judge about how "well they are breaking the law" to which the judge states "but I have twice before ruled that they were NOT breaking the law" and the dog catcher just continued to debate him. The judge finally held up his hand and said "never mind, I know the answer to that question" meaning the one about harassing us. We knew too and moved away shortly after that.

The difference between our case and the bunny lady is that I knew that they were going to attempt to take my dogs, in spite of having no real reason for doing so. I knew they would set up the situation so that I would be given an option of paying some huge amount of money per day for care or signing over almost 20 years of my life and breeding program. I moved all of my dogs off the property and lived at a friends house in the next county with them until the judge issued his ruling. 

Had I not had this chance I am sure that the idiots from the local shelter would have arrived and tossed dogs in with dogs that didn't get along, resulting in dog fights. They would have changed their diet from being raw fed to feeding whatever cheap garbage they had donated at the shelter. The result would have been a bunch of sick dogs, which they would have blamed on the "deplorable conditions" they came from. 

You have to remember that the people who do this sort of stuff have an agenda. As someone else pointed out there are far more "deplorable conditions" at many a factory farm and that is okay with them.They take photos and write their ---- reports to serve that agenda. It is all about spin. BTW at the same time this was going on we had a Anatolian Shepherd Dog ***** who had a cancerous growth on her shoulder. My vet told me that if she removed it that it would be back to the size it was at that point (which took about 9 months to develop to that size) in about a month. It was going to kill her, we knew this, the vet was aware of the condition and we had the dog on meds. In spite of hearing this from my husband, the dog catcher took a bunch of photos of this dog and her horrible and neglected state because he planned on using that against us. He actually called the vet in front of my husband to ask about the dog and was told that "the dog has end stage cancer" and that she had no doubt in her mind that we would have her euthanized when the time came and she was well cared for. 

In any event we are far from that part of the world now and I am very thankful for that. I feel for this woman and I hope that she sues the pants off the people responsible for this, it is truly tragic.


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## Elsbet (Apr 2, 2009)

I may be super-imposing a past event on this one. I had the misfortune of living very, very close next door to someone who did not properly care for their rabbits. The fleas and rats that invaded our home were unreal. It didn't turn me off rabbits, but it did turn me off people who don't take care of them. The private rescues I've done often resulted in immediate euthanizing of the rabbits, which also makes me edgy when I see pics like were shown.

If I've said anything out of line, I apologize. You are right- we haven't seen this with our own eyes, other than a few pictures.
And you are so right- without a warrant, search and seizure is a crime. And that is what this is all about.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Elsbet said:


> I may be super-imposing a past event on this one. I had the misfortune of living very, very close next door to someone who did not properly care for their rabbits. The fleas and rats that invaded our home were unreal. It didn't turn me off rabbits, but it did turn me off people who don't take care of them. The private rescues I've done often resulted in immediate euthanizing of the rabbits, which also makes me edgy when I see pics like were shown.
> 
> If I've said anything out of line, I apologize. You are right- we haven't seen this with our own eyes, other than a few pictures.
> And you are so right- without a warrant, search and seizure is a crime. And that is what this is all about.


Elsbet, I normally think very highly of the individuals, and that includes you, that are involved in animal rescues. Most get no recognition for performing a largely thankless job. Anyone that isn't concerned about the humane treatment of animals is missing a basic part of humanity.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

may I ask on the pic of the dirty butt why only one foot is dirty and the others fairly clean?


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

I must say I am highly disturbed by the pictures. No longer feel sorry for her. No longer worry my rabbits are going to be next. My rabbits live 3 feet above their poop and I scrape my shed out weekly and spread pine shavings. Some rabbits have litter boxes that are changed every second day. My 'barn' has a lovely pine smell to it. My crocks are rinsed and clean and I have NO earthly idea how that one crock in that picture got so full of poop if the rabbit just had water that morning. I have never seen more than about 3-4 poopies in a crock between waterings. 


And the cages were not even that clean and orderly in the video as far as I am concerned. If that was the BEST she could do (you would think you would want to do your best for TV) that disturbs me. Was that one rabbit missing an ear?? If you have 150 rabbits why show that one? Why were they ALL so thirsty when she poured water?? Mine get water every 12 hours and most of the time there is still water in the crock when I come back. I dunno. Maybe I am too fussy. 

I also dont like how she is saying the rabbits are FINE. They were not fine. They needed help. She should just admit that she hadn't cleaned the cages in a LONG time (way more than I week...I have rabbits too and I am not stupid, thats more than a weeks worth).


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

*WHAT TO DO WHEN ANIMAL CONTROL COMES KNOCKING*

by George J. Eigenhauser Jr.


(he is an attorney at law licensed in the State of California since 1979


and practices in the areas of civil litigation and estate planning)

ANTI-DOG ENFORCEMENT - What Every Dog Owner Needs to Know


Dog owners and ethical breeders are increasingly being targeted. Disgruntled neighbors may retaliate against dog owners and may other reasons drive complaints, and anti-dog enforcement action, which many times may be conducted illegally.


The following text outlines methods of inquiry and enforcement which may be used by local officials in attempts to enforce ordinances in your community and suggested techniques of response. These techniques are entirely legal and based upon the rights of citizens as stated by the U.S. Constitution.


No breeder wants to have Animal Control come knocking on the door...but if they do, it will help if you know what your options are.


Remember, Animal Control is law enforcement. They are bound by the same Constitution as any other government agency. To protect yourself, you need to know your rights. These vary slightly one jurisdiction to another, but some general principles apply. One rule applies everywhere: never physically resist an officer.


When Animal Control is At Your Door:


*1. Do not let them in, no matter how much they ask. Animal Control generally cannot enter your home without a warrant, or your permission. While regular police can enter in emergency situations when human life is at risk (i.e. they hear gunshots and a scream inside), there are few, if any, situationsin which Animal Control can enter your home without a warrant. Simply tell them they may not comein.


2. If you let them in, anything they find in "plain sight" can be used against you. In some circumstances Animal Control officers, unable to find a legitimate reason to make an arrest, have reported building orzoning violations. This may include caging you attached to a wall without a building permit, that extraoutlet in the puppy room, having more pets than allowed by zoning, even extension cords in violationof fire codes! No matter how clean your kennel, if they want to find a violation, they will.


3. Do not talk to them from an open doorway. Step outside an close (and lock if possible) the door behind you. This is necessary because:


A) Anything they see through the open door is "plain sight" and may be the basis for an arrest, or probable cause for a search warrant.


B) If they make an arrest or even feel threatened they are usually permitted to search for weaponsin your immediate area. Do you keep a baseball bat inside the door for your protection? Even ifyou don't, once they step inside to look, they are in your home and may continue to search.


C) It is hard not to be intimidated by someone in authority. Some animal control is even done bylocal police, who carry guns. It is easy for them to get "in your face", causing you to back upinto the home. Once you go in, it will be interpreted as an invitation to follow.


4. If they claim to have a warrant, demand to see it. In general, a search warrant must be signed by ajudge. A warrant to search your home for dogs does not include an inventory of your jewelry box. Awarrant to search your kennel in the garage or in the barn does not include a search of your home.

5. In some locations dog owners may have obtained special "breeder permits" that stipulate that AnimalControl has your permission to enter at any time. If you have signed such a permit they still cannotenter against your wishes, since you can revoke the permission at any time. However, if you refusepermission it may allow them to cancel your breeder permit, so you have to weigh the consequences.

6. Warning - anyone in lawful possession of the premises may be able to give permission for a search.Make sure your roommate, babysitter, dog-sitter, housekeeper and other know that they should notlet animal control into your home or on your property (i.e. backyard, garage, etc.).

How to Handle Questions:
1. Don&#8217;t answer any questions beyond identifying yourself for the officer. Anything you say to theofficer in your defense cannot be used in court (hearsay). Anything you say that is harmful toyou will be used in court (confessions are not considered hearsay). You cannot win, except by remaining silent.


2. Be polite but firm. Do not argue, bad-mouth, curse, threaten or try to intimidate the officer.


3. Do not lie to an officer, ever. However, it is NOT a lie to exercise your right to remain silent.


4. Keep your hands in plain sight. People have been shot by police when common objects, such as a wallet, were mistaken for a gun.


5. Do not touch the officer in any way. Do not physically resist an officer, no matter how unlawful his or her actions.


6. Don't try to tell your side of the story, it cannot help.


7. Do not threaten the officer that you plan to file a complaint for their actions.


8. If the questioning persists, demand to speak to a lawyer first. Repeat as necessary.


Gathering the Facts:


1. Get the name and badge number of each officer involved. If he/she does not volunteer this information, ask.


2. Ask the name of the agency they represent. Different agencies have different enforcementresponsibilities.


3. Ask why they are there. Request the factual basis of the complaint and the identity of the complainant.


4. If they have other people with them (Humane Society, press, etc.) get the names and organizations for all present.


5. Note the names (and addresses) of any witnesses to the encounter.


6. If you are physically injured by an officer, you should take photographs of the injuries immediately, but do not forego proper medical treatment first.


7. Write down all of the information, as well as the date and time of the incident immediately, while details are fresh in your mind.


8. If you rights are violated, file a complaint with the appropriate body.*


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## ilovehome (Sep 5, 2010)

Jackie said:


> No longer worry my rabbits are going to be next.


I have to admit, I had that same thought...lol


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

HendricksHearth said:


> I agree with April. IF that is true about the Angoras, then she took them from California and tossed them in cages with the rest of her herd until she got around to it? Not good from several angles. Those cages hadn't been cleaned in quite some time- possibly months. I'm glad those were the worst photos they had because they were awful.
> 
> I know you don't keep rabbits and you are obviously giving her the benefit of the doubt, but trust me- it is very easy to keep rabbits clean and dry in an all-wire set-up. You just clean the tray (few min tops) when needed, dump the food and water. Occasionally scrub the wire or torch it if there is any mild accumulation. No big deal normally, but the owner just dropped the ball.. apparently repeatedly over a period of time. No excuses for cages like that. The whole point of wire is to let the waste fall through, but it doesn't work when there is so much waste underneath that there is no where for it to fall.
> 
> ...


I don't breed rabbits, and we only own one rabbit, though we had two until recently. I don't have a wire bottom cage, mine is plastic with holes that the poop sometimes falls through, the urine always falls through, obviously. Even with two rabbits, even with only dumping the bottom tray every 2 weeks, the poop is NEVER composted like it is in some of those pictures. It would take a good while for poop to look like that...

No, this isn't a case I can get on-board with supporting. Those rabbits were kept in HORRIBLE conditions. Just the hair/dust accumulation on the fan is enough to make me want to cry.

(Please note, when our rabbit's poop doesn't fall through the cage floor, we clean it out, on a DAILY basis. Her cage and bottom tray are usually cleaned once a week, but occasionally the kids forget to do it. She also dumps her crock of food several times a day, I think the fact that woman is using crocks for water to be disgusting, because I guarantee those rabbits go without water for hours on end when they dump them. We have one of the feeder things with the mesh bottom, but she beats the crap out of it until she knocks it down, too, so we went back to the crock until we build a new cage.)


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## tbishop (Nov 24, 2004)

You guys did read that she took in some angoras from California destined for slaughter in hopes or rehabilitating their coats right? That's where the matted rabbits came from.

Tim B.


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## tbishop (Nov 24, 2004)

I think the bottom line is- don't let anyone that isn't a long term trusted friend into your setup. There are a lot of people who are lead by their emotions to try to control your life in the way THEY feel it should be and will use whatever means necessary to get it done. Keep your family, your home, and your lifestyle safe from the "know-better-than you's".

Tim B.


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## grumpy (Feb 17, 2009)

grumpy


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

I had a very nice MS buck that would make poop piles in a corner. I have free hanging cages, so no drop pans. he would make a pad of poop then poop some more and sit on it.
mind you this was a white rabbit! I toilet bushed that cage daily. the underside and inside and it was hard, not only was it sticky but he was also a mean rabbit. some call mini-satins mini-satins and with him it was right! his ear # was RIP. as in rip you up or rest in peace. I don't know I didn't tat him but if you left his cage alone for even a few days is was a raised bed of poop. not as large as her's but I had wire sides for some of the poop to roll out.
I finely got ride of him. I NEED for myself a clean good looking rabbitry and his habit wasn't helping.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

To add to what Haven posted, perhaps it's time to get familiar with the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act for those of you that have animal operations. When I say animal operation, it doesn't take much for some government official to consider you an animal operation if they want to nail you for something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Enterprise_Terrorism_Act


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## tbishop (Nov 24, 2004)

Another point to consider- the sheriff and the House Rabbit nazis didn't know there was one cage that had a pile of poop in it. They didn't know anything about what was in the building. But they arrived with boxes and kennels to take all the rabbits out. It could have been pristine in there and they would have found a reason to take the rabbits. It's not about enforcing healthy living standards. It's about ending animal breeding. You can back up those people if you want to- I never will.

Tim B.


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## bowbuild (Aug 2, 2008)

Trespass is trespass to me, police or not....no warant, no entry...I would demand them off my property.......I would also call another police agency to document their actions, they may not come, BUT it would show my STRONG objections to the trespassing in a later court case.


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## sandc (Apr 26, 2010)

I am calling total BS on a lot of the pics. I think some of them were taken after the rabbits spent the day in cat crates sitting in spilled water, urine and poop.

I have been to her rabbitry in the last 4 months and it was clean. I was there on a Tuesday as well as a friday. All of the rabbits looked good at that time except for 3 or 4 that looked like death warmed over. Upon asking, the wife was told they had just been given to her from someone that had found them abandoned at a house they were cleaning for rental.

As far as a rabbit acting "water aggressive", my rabbits have both an auto water setup as well as a bottle just in case. I pull and change the water bottle twice a week or sooner if it is getting close to empty. In the heat I don't take any chance on them not having water.
When I put the new botle on the cage, my rabbits act like they haven't had water in a week.

I feel that a lot of the pictures are bein used out of context to attempt to sway public opinion.
I have had animal control issues out here. I keep our rabbits (3 currently) at my mil's house in cages that are less than a year old, from Bass and in a spot that is shaded all day. 
They have stood on things in the empty house next door to look over the fence and take pictures. Don't know what they hope to find. Every time they have done so, my mil has gone out and taken pictures of them and the cages. I pull the rabbits and pressure wash the cages every few weeks and the trays are cleaned almost daily.

Maybe the rabbit owners should band together with the backyard poultry people for the numbers and support.


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## arachyd (Feb 1, 2009)

I also have a couple of rabbits that, in hot weather, act as though they've been deprived of water all day and lunge at the freshly filled crocks. The crocks weren't empty or dirty, just not as cold as the fresher water. I have 2 rabbits that put out moister poops than the others. In one day it can pile up if they manage to stomp it and clog the wire because that spot is the potty corner and now the poop cannot fall through and the rabbit continues to go there throughout the day. It is cleaned daily but give them a few hours and the cage will have a small mound in it. If there were pics of many cages with poop piles in them I'd be less sympathetic and lots of pics shouldn't be hard to get with that many rabbits unless it is a problem limited to only some of them and not an issue of failure to clean.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I think the sheriff got in over his head on this one. The man tried for a big publicity score even when animal control had been to Bell's place previously and found nothing wrong. 

It's really suspicious when they went onto her property without a warrant, accompanied by the rabbit Nazis, and ready to go with horse trailers. Now the sheriff is trying to defend their illegal actions by posting the worse photos they have on the internet. Ever see law enforcement post pictures of a crime scene before the trial?

Folks, there's something really wrong with this. Here's the link again to donate to Debe Bell's legal defense. I'm hoping she gets enough money to tie the sheriff up in knots legally along with the rabbit Nazis. In my opinion those folks meet the legal definition of domestic terrorists. 

How many of you are concerned about someone wrongly dropping the dime on you with a trumped up charge. We've had a few posters tell their personal stories here. All you need is some John Law hypocrite out for publicity. This is an opportunity to push back against out of control government.

Will you be the next victim? Even if you can only donate $5 or $10, if enough of us do that, the truth is coming out and hopefully, if what many of us think happened, did happen, the sheriff and the rabbit Nazis are going to regret their illegal actions. Law enforcement nationwide may think twice about doing the same if an out of control Colorado sheriff gets jammed up in court. 

Used to be someone would say, "Don't make a federal case out of it!" when someone made a mountain out of molehill. This is the time someone needs to make a federal case out of what happened.

http://www.raising-rabbits.com/responsible-animal-owners-defense-trust.html


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

Well I looked at the pictures and I don't find them appalling or ----ing at all. Other than the matted angoras all the rabbits looked shiny and healthy. I have a number of 'poop pilers' in my barn, in fact I keep a ice scraper in my barn, and every two days I pull out the trays and spread their corner pile around, and there normally will be no manure in the tray except for that one corner. Rabbits are creatures of habit, they have a poop corner, and only about three inches or less of clearance, it fills up fast, particularly if you feed a lot of hay. The one cage showed three young lionheads, with a full to the wire tray, I can say that probably took 6-14 days to occur. I have stacking cages, I know how quickly they can fill up. Also the bowl with the poop in it was in with the young lionheads, baby rabbits sit and poop in their bowl, so that doesn't faze me either. It was stated in another article that 4h kids were supposed to come and clean cages that weekend, the thought of all that young strong help would probably make anyone hold off a few days. As for the fan, I just cleaned the fur off of mine, took a month and a half to get hairy, and I don't have Angoras. Sure does run better without the fur! I really don't see those cages as filthy disgusting, I've seen filthy disgusting rabbit hoarder situations where there was 6-8 or more inches of manure on top of the wire, so high that the rabbit was getting squeezed between the cage top and the manure, all melded together in a cement like block, with the tray stuck on the bottom of it. I imagine to a pet person it looks bad, or to someone who doesn't know much about rabbits, but seriously its not that bad. Doesn't change what was done to her, doesn't change my mind that she was railroaded.


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## AprilW (Nov 25, 2007)

I believe we will each have our own opinion of what is appalling. Personally I won't donate when I see those photos. I think housing rabbits in piles of feces, even those destined for meat, is unacceptable. Even if those are the "worst", why are they? 

While I agree wholeheartedly that the police had no right to be snooping around without a warrant, I can't justify sending money to help someone whose practices I don't agree with.


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

No one is asking you to donate April, and if your going to accept and believe the photographic word of people who very clearly violated this womans rights and ignored the law in order to confiscate her animals well that is your prerogative. Consider this scenario however- I've done it myself, removed or culled a rabbit, cage was dirty, too busy to clean it and no rabbit was in it. HRS folks need some juicy pictures, put rabbits in dirty cages, take pictures. They clearly had it out for her from the beginning, showed up without a warrant but with carriers and horse trailers. There were rumours that the HRS turned off the water to her swamp cooler, what esle would they do to make themselves look above reproach? There's just been too much hinky weird stuff done by by LE and the HRS in this case, its put serious doubts in my mind from the very beginning. I must admit that I myself seldom agree with what many other breeders do, but I will fight for their right to do it, because it could be me next, and then who will fight for me? You don't have to be doing anything wrong, you just have to exist and raise animals and your a target.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

You have to go by your own conscience on this. If someone doesn't want to donate for whatever reason, that is strictly their business. For me the illegal actions of the sheriff by stealing $17,000 worth of livestock is enough to more than get my dander up. Now the EPA wants to regulate the dust from farm operations. It's time to say no. Otherwise we're the proverbial frog sitting in a pot with the heat slowly being turned up.

Any of us with livestock or pets are just waiting our turn in the barrel. One of the constant subjects here is problem neighbors. How long before someone's neighbor calls the law when they get the idea to anonymously stick it to you? 

There is some conjecture that the anonymous tipster was one of Bell's fellow competitors in the rabbit competitions. Everything associated with this needs to be exposed to the light of day. That will probably take an extended court action. I'll donate more money next week because I want all the facts out in public.


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## HendricksHearth (Jul 18, 2009)

I am not trying to be disrespectful in any way here, but it is honestly shocking me that several people have said that they don't see anything wrong with those pictures. Not only that, but how it is supposedly this big conspiracy or whatever to take away all of our rights. If anything, all of the people defending her nasty set-up only makes it look bad for the rest of us. I don't really want to portray to the general public that what she did (or didn't do in this case) was okay. Call it whatever you want, but those pictures clearly showed blatant neglect- from the cages, food/water bowls, fans, etc. I am not saying it was intentional- I don't know and I don't care. But I guarantee you that the average joe reading the news and clicking on those pictures isn't going to be thinking about what a stellar set-up she had. 

The law enforcement made mistakes, but it doesn't negate her mistakes. Several people's replies indicate that they don't really care about her set-up- just about the law. The thing is that she broke the law as well. We can't pick and choose which we are supposed to obey if we expect law enforcement to follow the rules, too. It would have been a much better case if they took her rabbits and she had her place in good working order. Now THAT would have been a case to fight for! However, every ordinance I have ever seen clearly states that animals should have fresh water, food, and a clean living space. I am not talking complicated matters here- just clean the cages, groom or slaughter the rabbits (don't wait to butcher them in that condition for goodness sakes), and give them food and water. Not. That. Hard. 

This is interesting overall to me.. just goes to show how there is a wide variation in a group of what is considered "acceptable." I am surprised there was not illness with the decomposing feces mixed with urine + hair everywhere + swamp cooler/moisture, etc. I am NOT a house rabbit person, a big activist or anything- I believe rabbits are a wonderful utility animal, but even when a rabbit is being used for meat, it still shouldn't be raised where half of the actual living space is taken over by waste. Let's get real here.

I know I won't be changing anyone's minds that feel the breeder is an angel and that we need to pay her way to somehow protect our rights. That is each individual's own decision and I am not here to sway it. That said, just to make one thing crystal clear:

I won't be donating one cent. 

This also doesn't seem like the appropriate place to be soliciting money, but oh well. I don't really want to keep posting on this thread because I have already made my position and thought process perfectly clear and there is no use repeating it over and over, but thanks for reading if you made it this far.  

Lauren


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

HendricksHearth said:


> I am not trying to be disrespectful in any way here, but it is honestly shocking me that several people have said that they don't see anything wrong with those pictures. Not only that, but how it is supposedly this big conspiracy or whatever to take away all of our rights. If anything, all of the people defending her nasty set-up only makes it look bad for the rest of us. I don't really want to portray to the general public that what she did (or didn't do in this case) was okay. Call it whatever you want, but those pictures clearly showed blatant neglect- from the cages, food/water bowls, fans, etc. I am not saying it was intentional- I don't know and I don't care. But I guarantee you that the average joe reading the news and clicking on those pictures isn't going to be thinking about what a stellar set-up she had.
> 
> The law enforcement made mistakes, but it doesn't negate her mistakes. Several people's replies indicate that they don't really care about her set-up- just about the law. The thing is that she broke the law as well. We can't pick and choose which we are supposed to obey if we expect law enforcement to follow the rules, too. It would have been a much better case if they took her rabbits and she had her place in good working order. Now THAT would have been a case to fight for! However, every ordinance I have ever seen clearly states that animals should have fresh water, food, and a clean living space. I am not talking complicated matters here- just clean the cages, groom or slaughter the rabbits (don't wait to butcher them in that condition for goodness sakes), and give them food and water. Not. That. Hard.
> 
> ...



THANK YOU! For heaven sakes I dont care what the excuse is, no rabbit should ever be sitting in poo!! Those cages were a disgrace and if mine looked like that and I was too lazy to dump a tray I would deserve to have animal control come seize my rabbits. The only side I am on is the rabbits side. The rabbits deserved better. And for the record I usually have around 65 rabbits. I am not just a person who keeps a bunny in their house. I know what it takes to keep a rabbitry in shape and I DO IT.


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## tbishop (Nov 24, 2004)

Focusing on the poo in the pictures taken after the fact is an easy way to avoid dealing with the fact that these people went there to take away her rabbits before they knew anything factual. It wouldn't have mattered if it was pristine- they were taking her rabbits. It doesn't matter if you have 3 rabbits or 300, these "animal rights" nazis want you to stop breeding your rabbits and eating your rabbits. Every time they are supported in their tactics they win. There's never justification to take someone's property away. Offer to help clean up- suggest she sell of a portion of her rabbits- ask her if you can help in any way. There are a thousand ways to help that don't involve taking away her property rights. Too many people hand over their freedom to the government so that they can "do what's right." We - all of us who raise animals for whatever use- we all lose when the House Rabbit Society and the Humane Society of the United States wins. If you don't like the state of the rabbits at the original owner's place, better close your eyes to how these kind rabbit experts are "caring" for them. How long do you think it takes a rabbit to fill up a dog crate with poop and urine? Or the box they were taken out in? I'd LOVE to see people hold the hrs as accountable as we seem to want to hold Ms. Bell.

Tim B.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

One of the other odd things about the raid is that *they took 193 rabbits. Yet there was only 25 counts of animal abuse.* I don't know if that included the rabbits from the freezer or not. That is highly unusual since law enforcement tends to nail people with as many charges as they can. That gives the prosecuter room to maneuver. 

One of the local radio stations seems to be in the process of putting Ms. Bell's photos on their website. I'm not sure if those are the few pictures she was able to take before they threatened to "haul her off" if she didn't stop taking pictures. The more you find out about the raid, the stranger it gets.

On one website the animal rights activists are now calling Ms. Bell's lawyer sleazy. I guess they find it outrageous that Ms. Bell doesn't take the damage to her reputation and the $17,000 loss lying down. The other notable is that none of the 4-H kids who helped clean the cages on the weekends or their families, or others that visited the rabbitry prior to the raid have gone public and supported the sheriff's accusations.

Nothing I've been able to find has indicated that Ms. Bell wasn't well liked by the kids, their parents, folks who gave her rabbits, her neighbors and her colleagues at work. Over the years it appears that a lot of people were in and out of that barn.

On another site, one of the actvist's post was deleted and the person banned. Obviously this is an emotional issue for some. Once emotions kick in, it's tough to keep a realistic viewpoint given personal predispositions.


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## sandc (Apr 26, 2010)

Talking to some of the 4hers over dinner tonight,several of the young ones voiced something that brought it home.

It was interesting how this all happened right before fair time, and the rabbits just so happen to be going to the fair grounds where a lot of local publicity can be had.

The local support is behind her from many families that have been there many times to get rabbits for the kids. Several of us talked about i tand truly think that nor all of the pics were taken on the place. Funny to see a very clean rabbit with spotless feet sitting on top of a pile of poop.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

sandc said:


> Talking to some of the 4hers over dinner tonight,several of the young ones voiced something that brought it home.
> 
> It was interesting how this all happened right before fair time, and the rabbits just so happen to be going to the fair grounds where a lot of local publicity can be had.
> 
> The local support is behind her from many families that have been there many times to get rabbits for the kids. Several of us talked about i tand truly think that nor all of the pics were taken on the place. * Funny to see a very clean rabbit with spotless feet sitting on top of a pile of poop.*


I am glad you posted. Your posts are the only ones from a person who has actually been to her place. Based on the reactions by some to the pictures, even with the problems with a warrantless search, it's apparent the sheriff is trying to poison public opinion. If this ends up going to a jury trial, the sheriff has potentially prejudiced many that could be selected for a jury. I have never seen evidence displayed publicly before a trial.

One blogger has mentioned that the local newpapers have bought the sheriff's story hook line and sinker. At this point it's old news so they aren't looking at the inconvenient facts that spell trouble for the sheriff.

Fortunately Ms. Bell's fortitude that enabled her to go on the radio for two hours on two consecutive days and answer questions may help her by spreading the word. The sheriif conveniently posted the pictures after her first day on the show. This thing has railroad stamped all over it.

As you said, the timing is questionable too. I wonder if the tipster was a competitor. Waiting a year to turn someone in is something else that raises questions. If you were concerned about the welfare of animlas would you wait a year to call animal welfare?


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## jaredI (Aug 6, 2011)

*First* "if the sheriff was doing nothing wrong, why would he care if Mrs. Bell was documenting their actions, by taking her own photo evidence"?
*Second*, if the animals weren't healthy, how were they able to neuter/spay them?
*Third*, Unless laws have changed in Colorado, Rabbits used to be listed as a sub class of poultry, which means they are livestock, not pets.
*Fourth*, If each count involves a separate rabbit, we are talking 25 rabbits, less then 3% of her herd. Why wasn't there an order for her to correct the errors within X amount of days, and then do a follow up visit.

*FINALLY*, from all I have read, the sheriff broke the law. Period. End of story. When police don't follow proper procedure, all evidence they acquire at that time would be illegally gained, and inadmissible in a court of law. I'm glad Mrs. Bell has an attorney, and I hope she gets millions from the county in what ever law suits she can file.

If anyone suggests Mrs. Bell is guilty, because of a few select pictures released from those that violated her rights, they really need to think long and hard. It could be you that are abused by the long crooked arm of the law next. Be very careful where you step, if you allow yourself to be blind and ignorant.

While I fully support law enforcement and the necessity to have them, I will also suggest many of those sworn to uphold the law will completely disregard the law to serve their own agenda, or the agenda of those with Power, Money, and/or Fame.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

jaredI said:


> *First* "if the sheriff was doing nothing wrong, why would he care if Mrs. Bell was documenting their actions, by taking her own photo evidence"?
> *Second*, if the animals weren't healthy, how were they able to neuter/spay them?
> *Third*, Unless laws have changed in Colorado, Rabbits used to be listed as a sub class of poultry, which means they are livestock, not pets.
> *Fourth*, If each count involves a separate rabbit, we are talking 25 rabbits, less then 3% of her herd. Why wasn't there an order for her to correct the errors within X amount of days, and then do a follow up visit.
> ...


Where is the "like" button when you need it? 

Since there are posts on here from someone who was there just four months ago saying that the pics are bunk, and the Mrs. Bell has the support of many families who have been to her place even more recently, and knowing how propaganda can make things look like they are not, I am inclined to disagree with those who broke the very laws they are sworn to uphold. 

Even if there were some issues with her rabbit care that needed to be resolved, animal control should have outlined those issues and then given her a chance to correct them before illegally confiscating her animals and ruining her business.


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## Oregon Julie (Nov 9, 2006)

jaredI said:


> *First* "if the sheriff was doing nothing wrong, why would he care if Mrs. Bell was documenting their actions, by taking her own photo evidence"?
> *Second*, if the animals weren't healthy, how were they able to neuter/spay them?
> *Third*, Unless laws have changed in Colorado, Rabbits used to be listed as a sub class of poultry, which means they are livestock, not pets.
> *Fourth*, If each count involves a separate rabbit, we are talking 25 rabbits, less then 3% of her herd. Why wasn't there an order for her to correct the errors within X amount of days, and then do a follow up visit.
> ...


Jared how is it that someone with as much intelligent stuff to say has only posted once? You are so right on the money on this and I hope the judge tosses everything out. The horrible thing about it is that the damage to this woman's reputation, breeding program, and pocket book has already been done. 

I wish she had not allowed them to bully her into signing over the rabbits, that is their tactic and it works. Often as not because they come up with some completely outlandish amount of money that they will be charging for daily care. You could keep that many rabbits for far less then what they claim, but they get people in a stressful situation and toss around figures and threats and they cave:-(

Anyway Bravo Jared and well said!


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## sandc (Apr 26, 2010)

Read an article in the paper this morning that says that they are spaying/neutering and putting them up for adoption.

I need to look and see if it is an election year for the sheriff.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

_If_ the rabbits had been sick or horribly undernourished there is no way anyone would be able to adopt them out.

In all fairness, with nearly 200 rabbits if there was a serious case of neglect there would have been more horrible pictures to post. In the one picture of a "water crock" with wet green sludge and poop in the bottom I do have to say that if the dish was a food dish it could easily look that way in a few hours if the rabbit decided to use the food dish as a toilet. I have one that does that. And it doesn't matter what kind of dish or where it's placed, he will pull it down and use it as a toilet. My only complaints were the status of the fan and the fact the trays aren't emptied more frequently. This sheriff totally overstepped his bounds. He is not the one that gets to make the determination of abuse or neglect. That is what animal control, the humane society, or the health department are supposed to do. And why on earth would he have the house rabbit society, a group that rabidly opposes using rabbits for food, there to assist him with determining abuse or neglect???? Of course they will say there is abuse! They believe that making a rabbit live in a cage is abuse. They believe not spaying or neutering is neglect. They believe feeding a pellet and hay only diet is neglect. They believe not having an annual vet check is neglect. 

Does anyone have any info on the exact charges? You can't have just a blanket charge of abuse or neglect. Those charges have to be very specific about lack of water or filthy cages or dead animals in cages kind of things. 

I would donate to her defense fund because what the sheriff did was so totally wrong but I haven't worked in 2 months and this month isn't looking so good either.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Here's the link again for anyone that wants to defend Ms. Bell's rights and by extension their own against animal rights Nazis. If you can't donate now. keep it in mind for the future when you can afford to donate. Take care of yourself and your family first. Ms Bell did take some pictures of her own before the deputies threatened her with arrest if she didn't stop. Those are up on the internet but they're small. Hopefully in a few days a link will allow everyone to view the pictures of the cages and rabbits the sheriff did not show. 

The sheriff is treating the rabbits as pets when ag laws clearly say they're livestock. This is going to be a critical legal case for anyone keeping small animals as livestock. If you send a check or money order, make it out to: Responsible Animal Owners Legal Defense Trust. The link provides the mailing address and paypal access. There's a report today that a cop in Jefferson County showed up at another rabbitry because of a complaint. It looks like that $2,000 reward has gotten people's attention. 

If you send a check or money order, make it out to: Responsible Animal Owners Legal Defense Trust

http://www.raising-rabbits.com/responsible-animal-owners-defense-trust.html


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## Niomi (Apr 29, 2009)

I do not raise rabbits. I have rescue rabbits, spayed and neutered that I am fostering for a no kill organization, but stories like this make me so angry! I can't stand the tactics of the HRS! I refuse to take in anymore foster rabbits because my house is already filled with unsocialized rabbits that will never make good pets. I trie to put some outside in a colony setting, and those House Rabbit people have an issue with me too!


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## tbishop (Nov 24, 2004)

Rabbits are just the vehicle used to gain power over others and funds through donations. These people couldn't care less about rabbits.

Tim B.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

tbishop said:


> Rabbits are just the vehicle used to gain power over others and funds through donations. These people couldn't care less about rabbits.
> 
> Tim B.


It's more than that Tim.

"Imagine you are a cattle rancher looking for liability insurance. You meet with your broker, who, as expected, asks a series of questions to gauge your suitability for coverage:

Have you ever been sued by your cattle?

If the answer is yes, what was the outcome of that suit?"

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/726xtosv.asp?pg=1


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## PulpFaction (Jul 23, 2009)

bowbuild said:


> Trespass is trespass to me, police or not....no warant, no entry...I would demand them off my property.......I would also call another police agency to document their actions, they may not come, BUT it would show my STRONG objections to the trespassing in a later court case.


They were invited into the barn by Ms. Bell's husband (or ex husband?) who, as a current tenant of the residence, had the authority to invite them in. It's in the warrant.

Also in the warrant is fairly solid reasoning that the vet examining the animals felt as if they were in imminent danger, citing sound medical evidence that they were severely dehydrated and distressed by the heat. Imminent danger is legal cause for removing animals from the premises, understandably.

HOWEVER, that being said, any vet familiar with rabbits should have recognized that the added stress of being moved would put the animals in far more imminent danger than simply cleaning their cages, opening some doors and ventilating, and offering some water. This is, at this time, my biggest complaint.

I also have a serious issue with the fact that so many are wasting their time making excuses and defending these conditions as "normal" for livestock. That is unacceptable. The conditions depicted in those photographs were negligent, and in fact truly deplorable. Whether they are actually pictures of Deb's rabbits or planted evidence or a small sampling of what was there....all beside the point. As responsible rabbit breeders, it does NOT behoove us to condone those conditions as normal. We can say any number of things defending her rights, etc., but we should also be mindful to not insinuate that we, as fellow rabbit breeders, find those conditions acceptable.

Honestly, I feel hoodwinked and want nothing more to do with the case. I do not wish to be associated with that mess.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

PulpFaction, do you have any links to your info? Did the vet see them before they were confiscated or after they were stressed by being handled and shoved into carriers and tossed in a trailer? Is there a name for the vet?

Not being difficult or nasty but truly want to know. Especially the part about the vet. Too many vets who "treat" rabbits really don't know about rabbits. 

The timing of the vet examination is a critical point.


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## PulpFaction (Jul 23, 2009)

Well, the warrant WAS here: http://jeffco.us/jeffco/news_uploads/search_warrant_11_19622.pdf

But it's not working now.

The rabbits were examined on premises before the call was made to remove them. The name of the vet was mentioned, but I do not recall who it was. Pale, tacky gums and other signs that are pretty universal in animal dehydration were cited. These aspects would not have taken a rabbit expert to recognize. I appreciated that these things were mentioned since it is rather subjective to simply say "the rabbits were aggressively thirsty."

I will check around and see if I can find another copy of the warrant somewhere.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Thanks. I do appreciate the info.


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## PulpFaction (Jul 23, 2009)

Oh, duh! In the sidebar (Marked "Extras") of this story you will find the warrant: http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_18701130

It appears the vet, Dr. Anita Hill, was summoned sometime shortly after 9 a.m. If the temperature was 84 degrees at that point, I would have been very concerned some of the rabbits would not have lasted the heat of the day.


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## PulpFaction (Jul 23, 2009)

Just to illustrate what the other side is saying, I couldn't argue with most of what's in this post: http://puppies.burningbird.net/article/putting-lies-context-debe-bell-and-six-bells-rabbitry

This is how they see it: 


> Last I heard, though, Tea Party friends of Bell have decided that the photos were doctored, that Colorado has entered into a conspiracy with the USDA and HSUS (and probably little green aliens from Mars) to deny Bell her Constitutional rights ... to continue treating rabbits like crap.


And I feel like I played right into it!


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

PulpFaction said:


> Oh, duh! In the sidebar (Marked "Extras") of this story you will find the warrant: http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_18701130
> 
> It appears the vet, Dr. Anita Hill, was summoned sometime shortly after 9 a.m. If the temperature was 84 degrees at that point, I would have been very concerned some of the rabbits would not have lasted the heat of the day.


There's a couple of issues that need clarification.

1. *The temperature of 84 degrees was recorded hours after the cooler for the barn was shut down and the doors were left open by the people concerned about humane treatment of the rabbits.* They caused the 80 degree plus temperature. the barn has an air conditioning system called a swamp cooler that they shut off.

2. Do you think a woman who's raised rabbits for decades is going to jeopardize the health of $17,000 worth of livestock and win championships?

3. Ms. Bell's *ex-husband* was involved. That's not a secret. I've haven't seen anything on the internet that said he lived on the premise. *Where did you find that?* I'm not sure what he was doing there. It was certainly convenient for the sheriff who never contacted Ms. Bell. A neighbor called her.

4.* Animal control has been there in the past and has never cited her.*

5. Ms. Bell said she and the 4-H kids cleaned the cages every weekend. The rabbits were watered twice a day.

6. Rabbits and other livestock dump their water bowls and sometime crap in the bowls. I have a cat that constantly dumps the water I put out for it. No, it's not in a cage. It's easy for some people to humanize animals. If it's soft and cuddly, it's all to easy to let our emotions get involved.

Why do you feel hoodwinked? The other pictures taken by Ms. Bell before she was threatened with arrest didn't show bad conditions. *Why did the sheriff stop her from taking pictures?*


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## PulpFaction (Jul 23, 2009)

Darren, did you read the warrant or are you just reciting canned banter from the interwebs? The warrant claims Mr. Bell has resided at the residence for the last six years.



> 5. Ms. Bell said she and the 4-H kids cleaned the cages every weekend. The rabbits were watered twice a day.


She can say anything she likes to make herself sound good, just like the other side can. I won't be taking her word for anything after seeing those pictures.



> 6. Rabbits and other livestock dump their water bowls and sometime crap in the bowls. I have a cat that constantly dumps the water I put out for it. No, it's not in a cage. It's easy for some people to humanize animals. If it's soft and cuddly, it's all to easy to let our emotions get involved.


I have had a lot of rabbits and lots of other animals, including a great variety of livestock. I have never seen a single rabbit create the kind of filth depicted in those crocks in a clean cage in less than 12 hours time. If this was a consistent issue and the rabbit tended to hang out and poop in its crock full of water, perhaps Ms. Bell should have considered it a good candidate for a water bottle.



> 2. Do you think a woman who's raised rabbits for decades is going to jeopardize the health of $17,000 worth of livestock and win championships?





> 4. Animal control has been there in the past and has never cited her.


I think it takes a very short period of time indeed for things to get insanely out of control and go south, regardless of the value of the animals involved.



> The temperature of 84 degrees was recorded hours after the cooler for the barn was shut down and the doors were left open by the people concerned about humane treatment of the rabbits. They caused the 80 degree plus temperature. the barn has an air conditioning system called a swamp cooler that they shut off.


And where did you find that? I guess we'll have to wait for sworn testimony from both sides. I just can't accept Ms. Bell's word for it anymore. If she can make excuses for the things in the pictures, she can bend the truth to suit her case any way she pleases.



> Why do you feel hoodwinked? The other pictures taken by Ms. Bell before she was threatened with arrest didn't show bad conditions. Why did the sheriff stop her from taking pictures?


I don't know. Guess we'll have to wait and see what the Sheriff's reasoning was.

For the record, I DO NOT think that it is right that Ms. Bell's animals are being surgically altered and re-homed before a trial takes place. That is scandalous, I think it is likely she was bullied into making a snap decision to relinquish her animals. However, the conditions were deplorable, the animals were in imminent danger. Something needed to be done, though I agree it should not have been what actually WAS DONE.

I wish we could all agree that the rabbits were living in unacceptable conditions and she needed to correct this mess, so we can move on to the real issues here. The other matters of whether or not her rights were violated can be defended WITHOUT defending the conditions of her facility.


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## tbishop (Nov 24, 2004)

PulpFaction said:


> Just to illustrate what the other side is saying, I couldn't argue with most of what's in this post: http://puppies.burningbird.net/article/putting-lies-context-debe-bell-and-six-bells-rabbitry
> 
> This is how they see it:
> 
> And I feel like I played right into it!


I could care less what those people say. They have no concept of right and wrong- just "I want". Like " I want people to stop breeding and eating rabbits. How can I do it?" There's your motivation. Most of us didn't "play into" anything. They are deficient of morals.


Tim B.


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## tbishop (Nov 24, 2004)

The neighbor called at 1 and said they had been there since 10. Bell got there soon after. The doors were wide open and the swamp cooler was shut off. As she stood there, someone yelled "It's 84 degrees in there!" 

I'll use just a little bit of logic and say, "Perhaps, had the doors been left open, and the cooling effect of the swamp cooler allowed to continue, Just perhaps, the building would have been cooler." It's just a hunch. 

So, after they HRS runs off the folks who you agree shouldn't "be allowed" to raise rabbits, who's going to stand by you when they come and tell you you can't keep them in cages outside on your postage stamp of a yard? Or that you can't eat any of these cuddly wittle furbabies? 

If this person was local, I'm sure we'd all help her make choices and get it up to healthy standards. I would NEVER call the police though. It's none of their business.

Gotta pick a side- stand with the people who want you and me to continue to be able to raise rabbits for meat, or stand with those who want to decide who gets to. 

Sounds like her ex-husband made himself $2000.00.

Tim B.


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## PulpFaction (Jul 23, 2009)

I must wonder, though, how effective a swamp cooler would be in a shed that must already have rather high humidity from the clear abundance of urine and open water crocks.

Guess we'll never know. Definitely a faux pas on the part of the Sheriff's people, and perhaps one Ms. Bell's defense will be able to use in her favor.


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

PulpFaction said:


> Darren, did you read the warrant or are you just reciting canned banter from the interwebs? The warrant claims Mr. Bell has resided at the residence for the last six years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hate disagreeing with you Rachel but I do, I don't feel that the conditions were deplorable based on those pictures alone and that the seizure of her animals was warranted on any basis. I have seen horrible terrible deplorable conditions, and what was shown in those pictures just does not come close. I've been in hoarders houses, with inches of rabbit manure on the floor overflowing from the cages that were nothing but a block of feces with the rabbits perched on top of it, perhaps that colors my perception a bit. Worst part was that children were sleeping in these rooms that the rabbits were in. I've also been in many many rabbitries, those pictures weren't shocking and horrible, more like well, normal in rabbitries with higher numbers, and for people who work full time. Those rabbits looked healthy and well cared for, sorry just don't feel that the conditions were that bad, I just don't. I'm a stay at home, a luxury that many do not have. I did trays today and in some of my rabbits fav pooping corner the manure was up to the wire. 48 hours ago I went thru, pulled out the pans and spread out the poop corner. It fills up that fast. This woman rights have been horribly violated, thats the problem that I have here, that some seem to think that because she had more poop in her trays than they think is acceptable that she deserves this terrible situation. Yes the Angoras look bad but its been stated that she had just gotten them from an abusive situation. They did necropsys on the rabbits that were in the freezer, that is just insane, their food, their in the freezer, would they have done a necropsy on a Perdue chicken? If the rabbits are so sickly and compromised by their ordeal then how are they able to spay/neutor and rehome them so quickly? And maybe I'm just a horrible person but the fact that her rights were so grossly violated means a lot more to me than 193 rabbits, or pictures of a few healthy clean rabbits sitting on a relatively small pile of poop. I cannot just agree that her rabbits were living in unacceptable conditions so that we all can move on to the real issue here, because I don't see things from your point of view, never will, I've seen true neglect and criminal abuse, and this just isn't it.


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## tbishop (Nov 24, 2004)

I'd call sabotaging a cooling system then claiming rabbits were overheating in the search warrant more than a "faux-pas", but I tend to hold my expectations of law enforcement to a higher standard. For me, being truthful is essential if you are going to confiscate 200 rabbits because of the state of 5. Actually, I would still just prefer they take the five they have concerns about, rather than every single rabbit in the building. But fascists don't care about right and wrong- only power over another. Not something I would ever- EVER- support in writing or in deed.

Tim B.


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## Countrygent51 (Jul 30, 2011)

Is it possible the vet in this case is the same Anita Hill involved in the controversial Clarence Thomas/Supreme Court/sexual harassment hearings in the early 1990s? That would add a totally new conspiracy dimension to this case


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## PulpFaction (Jul 23, 2009)

Honorine, I do totally understand that sometimes even through the course of your work day that things can get out of control. I came home one day and found a doe dead in her nestbox due to complications and a young chicken nearly scalped by his brooder-mates, both had been fine when I checked on them 8 hours previous. I even have a rabbit in my rabbitry at this very moment that would probably put me in the hot seat because I took her in terribly underweight and have been working on getting more meat on her.

I have rabbits that insist on crapping in their J-Feeders. (I removed them and use cage cups.) I have rabbits that militantly poop in one corner. (If I don't have time to clean the pan, I give it a good shake to distribute it so he doesn't have to sit in it.) I have one doe with malocclusion from pulling on wire incessantly in a former home. (I keep her teeth trimmed regularly.) I have about three Thrianta bucks that are the most pathetic little beasts ever when they are molting, which they currently are, and tend to go off feed and look terribly neglected, but they always have fresh food and water available and I give them a sprig of parsley to encourage them to eat if they're feeling bad.

I guess my point is this: Just because worse conditions exists does not mean that those are ok. 

And yes, I KNOW these things are time consuming and we get busy, but if you don't have the time to keep things running smoothly and decently and address small problems that arise like I mention above, have fewer rabbits! 

I work full time, I know full well that the only way I could have more rabbits than I have now is if I had a fully automated water system with single level cages, droppings falling to the floor, and help for weekly clean outs. Angoras? Forgettahboutit.

It concerns me something awful that so many are claiming this is "normal" and ok instead of simply saying Debe Bell needed help to get the decidedly unsatisfactory condition of her rabbitry under control, but that is NO excuse for the way she was treated. And clearly, being in the city, I may have more reason to be concerned than anyone else that I could be next, but STILL, I will NOT make excuses for the conditions shown in those pictures, and if they were pictures from my barn, I would be ashamed and admit that I needed more help and fewer rabbits rather than trying to explain it all away as "normal". I think she is doing the industry as a whole a great disservice to do otherwise.

Even the pictures from the Denver Post a year ago from the video brought questions to my mind. It was pretty clear to me that that place was one missed cleaning day away from total disaster.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Has anyone read page 2 of the warrant?

I can't get it to cut and paste but it says "rabbits are housed in "inhumane and cruel" cages consisting of wire mess (sic) floors which the rabbit's feet slip through and get caught on.
The pictures clearly show standard ARBA approved rabbit cages with wire mesh floors that are the standard in the industry. I have cages with wire mesh floor.

Does anyone else find it odd that whitepages.com has no listing for a veterinarian Anita Hill in Colorado? Not in Arvada or anywhere else. Also there is no Anita Hill listed on the Colorado HRS approved veterinarian website.

Not all the cages had water crocks. The picture of the inside of the shed plainly shows bottles on some of the cages.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Also from the warrant:
"Dr. Hill explained that a rabbit's cage should be cleaned daily, however, in her estimation; the cages inside the shed had not been cleaned in at least a month." 

Pure BS! No way those cages had not been cleaned for a month. I would believe they hadn't been cleaned for a week but not a month.

also the dimensions of the shed are given, 20x 30 feet. And that there are 75% more animals in the shed than the space allows. 

That would mean rabbits require at least 12 square feet each! Wow! I had no idea they need that much room! Most cages don't even have 6 square feet floor space. And according to this, heaven help you if you stack cages!

And seriously, who here has never let the temp their rabbits are exposed to exceed 80*F??? I do understand that the swamp cooler was turned off and the shed door open resulting in the higher temperatures but in the warrant Dr. Hill says acceptable temperature for housing rabbits should be no more than 80F degrees.

So going by those guidelines, who here who has or has had rabbits has never housed their rabbits in unacceptable conditions? Anybody?

I hope she kicked Ben to the curb. Why did he even tell them there were meat rabbits in the freezer??? IDIOT!


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Denver is not a high humidity area. Swamp coolers only work in areas with low humidity. You won't see them in the Southeast and East. They work by using the cooling effect of evaporating water and a fan to circulate the cooled air. The temperature in the barn was probably 80 degrees or below before the sheriff left the doors open.


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## PulpFaction (Jul 23, 2009)

Darren said:


> Denver is not a high humidity area. Swamp coolers only work in areas with low humidity. You won't see them in the Southeast and East. They work by using the cooling effect of evaporating water and a fan to circulate the cooled air. The temperature in the barn was probably 80 degrees or below before the sheriff left the doors open.


THis I know...perhaps I am unclear on whether the humidity needs to be low on the inside or outside of the building (grew up down south, not the most familiar with the things.) Just saying that large surface areas such as pans with urine in them or a high number of crocks with water (supposedly) would raise the humidity in an enclosed space a good deal. Oy, I had two rabbits in my basement over the winter and could barely keep on top of the ammonia smell. I can not IMAGINE what that place would have been like if the doors were closed! Can't win for losing in a situation like that.


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## tbishop (Nov 24, 2004)

Another House Rabbit Society lie- rabbits can't live on wire. Animal rights fanatics have been trying to bolster that fabrication for decades. Now they have a legal precedent to cite at the next case after they win this one. 


Tim B.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

a swamp cooler takes hot dry air from outside the building, cools and humidifies it and blows the cool air into the building. A vent or slightly open window allows the interior air to be forced out by the cool incoming air.

http://www.chaputrootmaster.com/blo...nd-Evaporative-Cooling-A-Match-Made-in-Heaven


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

PulpFaction said:


> Well, the warrant WAS here: http://jeffco.us/jeffco/news_uploads/search_warrant_11_19622.pdf
> 
> But it's not working now.
> 
> ...



Anita Hill. it says tacky not pale and tacky. it also stated cruel wire cages with sore hocks. (true sore takes months so heal not weeks if ever, making the rabbit unadoptable and yet....) 

I am with you about the cages. but I can't blindly believe the ACO when it took public outrage to have them finally admit to us where the dead rabbits came from.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Danaus29 said:


> Has anyone read page 2 of the warrant?
> 
> I can't get it to cut and paste but it says "rabbits are housed in "inhumane and cruel" cages consisting of wire mess (sic) floors which the rabbit's feet slip through and get caught on.
> The pictures clearly show standard ARBA approved rabbit cages with wire mesh floors that are the standard in the industry. I have cages with wire mesh floor.
> ...


good points.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Danaus29 said:


> Also from the warrant:
> "Dr. Hill explained that a rabbit's cage should be cleaned daily, however, in her estimation; the cages inside the shed had not been cleaned in at least a month."
> 
> Pure BS! No way those cages had not been cleaned for a month. I would believe they hadn't been cleaned for a week but not a month.
> ...


each one of my 2 car carports are 18 by 20. so she had almost 2 two car carports worth of space plus stacked.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

tbishop said:


> Rabbits are just the vehicle used to gain power over others and funds through donations. These people couldn't care less about rabbits.
> 
> Tim B.


I think you are right. It touches people's heartstrings and open's their checkbooks if you post pictures and make up stories about "abused" animal. It's about money pure and simple, as most "rescues" are.


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## jaredI (Aug 6, 2011)

I believe too many people are still missing the point. 
How can so many people make such a firm judgement based on a few select pictures released by the very people that took the rabbits away. The same people that threatened to arrest Bell for taking her own pictures. (which I question the legality of) We can't even say for sure that most those are pictures of her rabbits. Don't let your eyes lead you astray, turn on the brain and look outside the box.
To me, the main issue is the actions the sheriff took, and the people he had involved to help. * Why HRS*? it should of been a county agency, not an animal rights activist group. *How in the heck can you spay and neuter unhealthy animals*? *How can you adopt (sell) unhealthy animals*? If you are any kind of a good vet, or so concerned about the safety and well being of those rabbits, you certainly wouldn't of shut off the cooling system, and if it was already shut off, you would try to find a way to start cooling it down. Either way, you certainly wouldn't leave barn doors open all day, and you would definitely understand what the stress of all this commotion would do to those rabbits.
Concerned about the welfare of these rabbits? Hogwash, it's all about the money, and/or power.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

I don't know a thing about swamp coolers expect I have a friend who said they used them when they were young and that nurserys use them here in SC to keep their green houses cool in the summer.


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## Oregon Julie (Nov 9, 2006)

jaredI said:


> I believe too many people are still missing the point.
> How can so many people make such a firm judgement based on a few select pictures released by the very people that took the rabbits away. The same people that threatened to arrest Bell for taking her own pictures. (which I question the legality of) We can't even say for sure that most those are pictures of her rabbits. Don't let your eyes lead you astray, turn on the brain and look outside the box.
> To me, the main issue is the actions the sheriff took, and the people he had involved to help. * Why HRS*? it should of been a county agency, not an animal rights activist group. *How in the heck can you spay and neuter unhealthy animals*? *How can you adopt (sell) unhealthy animals*? If you are any kind of a good vet, or so concerned about the safety and well being of those rabbits, you certainly wouldn't of shut off the cooling system, and if it was already shut off, you would try to find a way to start cooling it down. Either way, you certainly wouldn't leave barn doors open all day, and you would definitely understand what the stress of all this commotion would do to those rabbits.
> Concerned about the welfare of these rabbits? Hogwash, it's all about the money, and/or power.


All very true. The Oregon Humane Society on a regular basis is involved in seizures like the rabbit one that has been discussed here. It always amazes me how they can take these "poor neglected and abused" creatures in and spay/neuter within a day or two and have them available for "adoption" (let's call it what it is, a sale) often in under a week. To my way of thinking there is no way you can get them healthy in a day or two, evaluate their temperament, and properly re-home then in that amount of time yet the OHS does all the time. 

There was a seizure of American Eskimo dogs from a breeder in Washington a few years ago and they did just what I described above. Got the dogs in on like a Saturday or Sunday, did the spay/neuter stuff on Monday and Tuesday and had some of them on the market by Thursday. Oh and of course for huge prices. They were asking $350-400 each for these dogs. Now I have worked with Eskies in my grooming shop and I can guarantee you that if these were ill treated, under socialized, not groomed dogs there would be no way you could turn things around in a week and safely place them. They could not have possibly been as abused/neglected as was being suggested. That is a breed that can give you back a bloody stump when you try to brush out packed in undercoat and those are the ones raised in a home with a family. 

They ran rough shod over this woman's constitutional rights and I hope she sues the pants off of them. It won't bring back her breeding stock, but it will perhaps make them think twice about pulling this sort of BS in the future. I would be that for ever one story we hear about there are 10 or more that we don't hear about. There is a stigma about having the AC folks come to your house, even if you are being railroaded. When we had our issues with the crooked dog catcher I discovered that we one of many that he had pulled the stuff on. He normally got away with it because people didn't fight it, they just paid their fine and hoped he would go away. He didn't, he just came back again and again to harass people but by then it was too late because by paying the fine they were essentially saying they were guilty and he was correct in his behavior. I will say again that people need to be aware of this trend and fight it every step of the way. You may think they won't come after you because your animals are always clean, always have water/food, etc. but it just takes one over zealous dog catcher, animal control officer, cop to cause you a huge amount of misery and NO ONE is immune to this potential.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I am glad I don't have to deal with this. Some of the animal rights activists are off the scale in their beliefs. Be careful and understand you can be a target too.

http://weedflemishgiants.blogspot.com/2011/08/bwf-warm-fuzzy-terrorists-in-her-own.html?spref=fb


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

Oh my god, Darren.... That's terrifying.


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## PulpFaction (Jul 23, 2009)

Absolute insanity. I can not understand how terrorists (truly, she fits the word in every sense) like that can be allowed to continue what she is doing!


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

They keep doing it because people don't band together and stand up for the rights of meat rabbit breeders. Pet rabbit owners far outnumber meat breeders. Groups like HRS are rabidly opposed to _any and all_ breeding of rabbits! They believe and promote the belief that rabbits are cute furry pets on par with cats and dogs and should be considered pets on the same level as any other furry pet only animal.


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## PulpFaction (Jul 23, 2009)

Maybe pet rabbit owners would have less of a platform if we banned together united for high standards of care (NOT pet standards, but commercial standards,) and showed that we, too, care for the health and well-being of our animals. It would be a lot easier to convince the general, non-rabbit owning population that we're not bad guys if we didn't openly condone and make excuses for filthy cages and other questionable husbandry practices.

Just saying.


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## tbishop (Nov 24, 2004)

There's no standard high enough to make the animal rights nazis happy. They will continue their quest to end all animal use until they get what they want. I think our efforts would be better served banding together to fight this fascism and work to get the government and the special interests who control them out of our lives.

Tim B.


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## Reed77 (Mar 20, 2011)

tbishop said:


> There's no standard high enough to make the animal rights nazis happy. They will continue their quest to end all animal use until they get what they want. I think our efforts would be better served banding together to fight this fascism and work to get the government and the special interests who control them out of our lives.
> 
> Tim B.


I agree! animal rights members won't stop until they get everything!



Is there any update on the bells rabbits?


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## PulpFaction (Jul 23, 2009)

I'm not even talking about the animal rights nazis. I'm talking about the general public, Joe Schmo on the street who has never owned a rabbit and never will, but suddenly has a bad opinion of rabbit breeders where formerly he did not because of this whole situation. 

From a PR perspective, this case is a nightmare for the rabbit hobby/industry far beyond the people that already hated us, the AR activists, etc.


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## tbishop (Nov 24, 2004)

Your nightmare is my education opportunity. I think you can see that your reaction isn't the only one even on this board. I choose not to be reactionary when given something I'm "supposed to" be reactionary about, i.e. "deplorable conditions". The source is tainted, therefore reacting to it as truth is flawed. In this instance and in others like it, the House Rabbit Society and the law enforcement people enmeshed with them were wrong legally, ethically and factually. I refused to be deterred from that point.


Tim B.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

There are few if any standards in other meat production industries. Why should the rabbit industry be the first domino to fall?

Besides, the HRS believes any rabbit cage is too small and rabbits should always be spayed or neutered and NEVER be eaten because "who can eat that cuddly little bunny?". With groups like the HRS there can never be compromise just because of what they stand for. 

If you have not yet checked the standards of care for rabbits put out by the HRS, I suggest you take a few minutes to look at their site. Seriously, rabbit breeders are evil and rabbit eaters are demon spawn to their point of view. They want to put all breeders out of business. According to one of the magazines they contribute to, their big mission now is to stop commercial rabbit meat production and back yard breeders by any means required. They are bed mates with PETA.

As I said, knowing that the HRS was involved from the get-go tells volumes. Even if the cages were spotless they would have found abuse and neglect. There is no way a breeder could possibly live up to HRS standards.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Oregon Julie said:


> All very true. The Oregon Humane Society on a regular basis is involved in seizures like the rabbit one that has been discussed here. It always amazes me how they can take these "poor neglected and abused" creatures in and spay/neuter within a day or two and have them available for "adoption" (let's call it what it is, a sale) often in under a week. To my way of thinking there is no way you can get them healthy in a day or two, evaluate their temperament, and properly re-home then in that amount of time yet the OHS does all the time.
> 
> There was a seizure of American Eskimo dogs from a breeder in Washington a few years ago and they did just what I described above. Got the dogs in on like a Saturday or Sunday, did the spay/neuter stuff on Monday and Tuesday and had some of them on the market by Thursday. Oh and of course for huge prices. They were asking $350-400 each for these dogs. Now I have worked with Eskies in my grooming shop and I can guarantee you that if these were ill treated, under socialized, not groomed dogs there would be no way you could turn things around in a week and safely place them. They could not have possibly been as abused/neglected as was being suggested. That is a breed that can give you back a bloody stump when you try to brush out packed in undercoat and those are the ones raised in a home with a family.
> 
> They ran rough shod over this woman's constitutional rights and I hope she sues the pants off of them. It won't bring back her breeding stock, but it will perhaps make them think twice about pulling this sort of BS in the future. I would be that for ever one story we hear about there are 10 or more that we don't hear about. There is a stigma about having the AC folks come to your house, even if you are being railroaded. When we had our issues with the crooked dog catcher I discovered that we one of many that he had pulled the stuff on. He normally got away with it because people didn't fight it, they just paid their fine and hoped he would go away. He didn't, he just came back again and again to harass people but by then it was too late because by paying the fine they were essentially saying they were guilty and he was correct in his behavior. I will say again that people need to be aware of this trend and fight it every step of the way. You may think they won't come after you because your animals are always clean, always have water/food, etc. but it just takes one over zealous dog catcher, animal control officer, cop to cause you a huge amount of misery and NO ONE is immune to this potential.





Danaus29 said:


> There are few if any standards in other meat production industries. Why should the rabbit industry be the first domino to fall?
> 
> Besides, the HRS believes any rabbit cage is too small and rabbits should always be spayed or neutered and NEVER be eaten because "who can eat that cuddly little bunny?". With groups like the HRS there can never be compromise just because of what they stand for.
> 
> ...


There's another group of individuals trying to find out who the vet/vets were that were part of the raid. It appears it may have been someone from HRS. Don't run to the bank with that. It needs to be confirmed. With the exception of 57 rabbits that are up for adoption all of the others have been given away. All of those abused rabbits, sore hocks and all because of the improper housing, have miraculously recovered.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

When a "vet" says cages with wire floors are "cruel and inhumane" there is no doubt in my mind they are HRS or PETA.


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