# Recommendation for first LGD?



## Blue Ridge (Jul 2, 2013)

Ok, lets start out with the basics:

We haven't even closed on the farm, yet, so we are really new to this.

We have a large family and our goal is raise

- Chickens for both eggs and meat

- A couple of dairy goats for milk

- A small herd of meat goats (the buck will also service the dairy does)

- A steer (seasonally)

- We would like to pasture rotate the livestock, including the chickens.

Mostly settled on Nigerian Dwarfs for dairy and Myotonics for meat goats. Chose both based on their ease of management, and low fencing requirements.

But, we could possibly have predator problems (foxes, coyotes) in the new location. So, we are considering a LGD.

Any recommendations on a breed that is compatible with chickens, goats and children?

Also do you need pairs for companionship, or can you have a single?

And lastly, there will always be two, possibly three, separated fenced areas occupied with livestock. Anyway to avoid needing an LGD for each area?

Thanks!


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Well, of course I'm quite biased now that I've learned what my little Karakachan is doing. (See my thread in this forum.)

Some people only have one dog; but I would never do that, especially with an LGD that is expected to protect predators out of the sight of my home. Also, should you get a "puppy", it really needs another dog to play tag with because that is an important skill for an LGD to have.

As for your divided pastures, why not just create a doggie door so your dogs can go in and out all your pastures at will?


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

The 3 pastures are going to be an issue unless you can enclose the 3 within a larger one for the dogs. Try and find a dog from working stock. Good fencing helps a lot with predators.


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## Blue Ridge (Jul 2, 2013)

motdaugrnds - Wouldn't the "doggie door" be easily accessed by the goats?

Bret4207 - currently in place is field fencing completely surrounding. We have the space to cross fence 4 pasture areas, and were thinking:

does/chickens
steer or fallow
bucks
fallow

in rotation.

would anyone recommend electic netting for the cross fencing. I'm thinking this would allow more ability to have the LGD guard the whole area, but still keep the does and bucks separated by space and fence.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

We used electric netting. It works very well at keeping dogs out. A coyote can jump a 4' fence, but we found they generally won't if they have other things to eat. You start at one end of the pasture and use the portable fencing to give them about 3 days of grazing. Then, you move the fencing back to give them another three days of grazing. Move the fence back again, and use another section of portable fencing to block off the previous nine days. They will keep going back to day one to lie down, and this doesn't allow the grass to come back, and they will make deep tracks in the pasture. Grass needs 21 days to recuperate, more or less depending on the weather and type of grass. Once the grass goes to seed it stops growing. You need a variety of grass and orbs so that they go to seed at different times. Goats prefer broad leaves over grass.

I'd keep them all together except to bring out the buck(s) when you had to in order to control breeding. Once the does are bred, you can put them back in. 

An LGD needs to bond with the animals it will be protecting, as opposed to protecting its territory. This means you don't get the dog until you have the animals and get a dog that has been around goats and cattle.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Not sure. I've seen my goats get real creative when they want to get somewhere; so maybe a "regular" doggie door wouldn't work. 

My place is divided up into two major pastures (one in back of garden; one in front of garden). The goats free range and when they are in the back, my dog will simply following them from the barn to the back and stay there with them as I will shut the gate so they cannot get back to the barn. Of course when they're in the front pasture, they have free access to the barn. So I never really thought of how a large dog would go from one pasture to another to guard different stock that are kept separated from each other.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

Electronet works very well for me in keeping the dogs and sheep IN and, to a lesser extent, the predators out. A coyote can certainly jump the net, but that means exposing himself to the dogs. Sort of a trip flare if you will. Works for me so far.


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## Blue Ridge (Jul 2, 2013)

Maura and Bret4207, thanks. We have been leaning toward the electronetting for containment within our larger field fenced pasture.

motdaugrnds, I read on another post that you got your Karakachan from Cindy Kolb. We are getting two goats from them, and have seen the Karakachan in action. Friendly to visitors while in Cindy's presence, even while handling the kids in their care.

She related a story of how two of her Karakachans had a black bear treed. She had to "pull them back", and let the bear come down and get away. Apparently, they still hear the the bear(s) in the woods around their property, but never have had one come back into the fields.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

No, I purchased my Karakachan from Vikki Caldwell, though Cindy Kolb has some nice Karakachans too.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I bought a Karakachan from Cindy Kolb & 1 from Vikki Caldwell this past April & I too couldn't say enough good things about this breed of dog. We love them & they are working out great for us.

I do think the from the way it sounds with the different pastures, animals, etc. that they may not be the right LGD for your farm. I would suggest when you see Cindy again to talk to her about it. She was so helpful when we bought our puppy from her & I've called or emailed her since & always willing to help.
The Karakachan bonds with their goats/sheep & mine will let nothing in their pastures with our goats. They do know our barn cats & 1 does better than the other dog with them but the cats also just know to stay out of those pastures.
I don't think this breed of dog would do well as an all around guard dog to protect your whole farm running around the perimeter & protecting all our farm critters because I was thinking the same thing & asked Cindy about it before we bought ours, she said "No" they needed to be in the pasture with our goats.
They also need a large area to run/pasture with their herd.

Maybe a German Shepard, Great Dane or other large farm guardian might be better that can be loose to cover all your property & protect all your animals?


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

If you have to fence anyway, you could build a dog moat.
outside fence, then dogs, inside fences then livestock. 
Then you could use any breed that will fight predators and 1 or two dogs could take care of the whole situation. There are easier picking than having to get into a cage match, where even there wolf pack moves can't help them beat the dog, because they cant flank them.
If I did that I would make it wide enough by angling 45's at the inside corners to turn my pick up or tractor


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Blue Ridge said:


> Ok, lets start out with the basics:
> 
> We haven't even closed on the farm, yet, so we are really new to this.
> 
> ...


We have been a year and a half on our land. SO newbies too, and wanted to ask if you have previous experience with chickens goats steer (it sounds like you do?)-- cause while I grew up rural and we had 5 dogs a "play kid from triplets the nanny couldnt feed" never really raised first hand any of those things til we moved out here (we lived next to a goat dairy and I spent hours there though as a kid)...
It really makes a difference. Our flock of Jersey giants are doing well and putting out plenty of eggs-- and our "LGD"s are a bernese mt dog (he is fab with kids and family but surprisingly territorial and is up all night patrolling, and at 116 lbs diet weight he has the size and the loudest booming bark), a giant schnauzer (she is the heavy hitter. She kills things and doesnot like strangers and will launch herself after things) and a new GP/anatolian pup (we picked him for our first LGD breed b/c he was bottlefed by the owner, as he wasnt doing well as the runt, his parents are working dogs who are out on pasture with the goats-- but I thought the extra handling was a plus) there is a lot of newer thinking about the raising of LGDs-- check out this amazing website, 

http://www.lgdnevada.com/Pyrenean_Mastiff.html

... Anyways the short version what I was saying is that it might to do get your livestock in place and work out those kinks before getting a LGD!
(we just have the chickens and a bunch of cats but are looking at goats, there are some coyote and bear up here, but so far no losses in a year of free -ranging and the cats do a great job with vermin).....


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Blue Ridge said:


> would anyone recommend electic netting for the cross fencing. I'm thinking this would allow more ability to have the LGD guard the whole area, but still keep the does and bucks separated by space and fence.


MY neighbor did use this for his pasture last summer-- he had an Akbash ***** in with his spring lambs, but was doing a project on sustainable farming so was following a strict grazing/ pasture rotation protocol and would move the netting every 3rd day or so. He used a solar panel. It seemed to work fine. (There was standard AG wire fencing around the property as a whole.)....
Dog was pretty seasoned though and I never saw her test the fence or get out.


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