# just bought 11 acres in montana!



## mtnjim (Jan 28, 2013)

Ive always wanted a homestead, and finally made the hasty decision to buy some land I came across. It is 11 acres in montana and I am paying ~$1800/acre (20k total). The deal still has a week left in escrow. It is 10miles off an interstate by dirt road in the foothils of the rocky mountains at about 5000ft elevation. About 45min from Great falls, MT

My only concern is that I don't get mineral rights with it. In early 1900s some railroad company owned them, 5 years ago they were sold to some random company that I find zero info on when googling. I'm debating pulling out of escrow because of this.

The land is pretty steep, about 500ft of vertical in the longest length of the property (1300ft). I know it won't be great for gardening, but the plan is to mainly raise sheep. The slop faces south eastish and should be good for sunlight.

Also, I very much want to build a hobbit house. And the hill should be good for that 

It probably wont be a year or so till I move out there (in a tech job in a city far away). But I thought I could buy now to get some trees going and start planning.


What do you guys think?


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

Why did somebody want to buy the mineral rights?Could you buy them back? It'd be scary to know somebody else might come and make the land unusable.


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## Gianni (Dec 9, 2009)

Pretty rare to find open ground with mineral rights here. They are only available if there is no proven mineral leases close. I doubt that you have much to worry about in the Belts.


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## mtnjim (Jan 28, 2013)

Yes, Im concerned about that. But I was reading threads on this and it looks like that is pretty standard out west and in land that was sold off by a developer. Even if I bought mineral rights back they could set up camp at one of my neighbors properties and be pretty disruptive. I guess it is a big risk.

Anyone ever have the mineral rights owner come in and set up camp?


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## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

In most of MT you do not get the mineral rights with your land. I believe ours went to some big oil company back in the early 1900s. Seemed to be standard practice there.


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## JustMe2 (Mar 8, 2011)

Congratulations!!!!


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

Very pretty property, could terrace and have magnificent gardens! Check out Sepp Holzer on YouTube:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WddekwA23dk[/ame]

Start at 6 minutes to skip all the discussion of Pine Forests... 

We bought our property, including the Mineral Rights, Fee Simple.


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## Travis in Louisiana (May 14, 2002)

That's alright!! I love the smell of the forest. I got a cabin out of Helena Montana in the national forest. I wonder how your property taxes will be. Everyone told me to get twenty acres, to keep proprty taxes down. Maybe others who live in Montana can add to this.


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## ozarkchaz (Feb 4, 2005)

> My only concern is that I don't get mineral rights with it. In early 1900s some railroad company owned them, 5 years ago they were sold to some random company that I find zero info on when googling. I'm debating pulling out of escrow because of this.


Careful Jim, if that random company is a front for an OIL company (they are sneaky), you could be in for a big surprise if they start "fracking" for natural gas in your backyard. You will have NO say in the matter.

The BLM (US Government) has been leasing huge parcels to the oil companies all over the West for this purpose. Have you consulted a local real estate attorney? More research is in order IMO.

Nice property BTW, Montana is Beautiful!


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

You did look at this in person, not just on the Internet? You know what the water rights are, how deep wells in the area are, it the dirt road is private or public. It sounds like its really steep not slightly, and at 5000 feet elevation you are going to have a short growing season and may have very heavy snow.
Most places in the west don't have intact mineral rights. One reason being in many areas the RR was given every other section and they kept the them. However this may be the least of your worries.


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## Nomad (Dec 19, 2002)

It looks very pretty. I think I'd like it there except for the winter maybe.

Nomad


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Call me goofy, but I would never buy a piece of real estate that didnt come with mineral rights. There is just too much danger of the owner of those rights showing up someday, demanding "their" minerals which can be quite disruptive to my surface improvements.


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Call me goofy, but I would never buy a piece of real estate that didnt come with mineral rights. There is just too much danger of the owner of those rights showing up someday, demanding "their" minerals which can be quite disruptive to my surface improvements.


I agree. It may be the way they do it out there but I just don't like it. I was looking at some land here that didn't include timber rights. When I found out I told the realtor that I didn't realize he was selling partial ownership and on those terms the price should be reduced accordingly. He couldn't seem to understand the logic. Basically if I don't have full ownership, why should I pay full price? My ownership here includes EVERYTHING; water, minerals, timber, surface, etc.

Anyway, its just a pet peeve of mine, but I'm sure the OP won't have any problems..good luck to you the land does look mighty pretty. Any water on it? Might be an issue for raising sheep.


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## mtnjim (Jan 28, 2013)

It does have water rights and lumber rights. There is a heavy river .5 mile away (but im sure it probably frezes), some seasonal creeks on the of the property and nearby. Not sure how deep wells are in the area, no one in this development lives there full time.

I can't view it in person for ~2 months, but saw it in many pictures and satellite photos


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

Molly Mckee said:


> You did look at this in person, not just on the Internet? You know what the water rights are, how deep wells in the area are, it the dirt road is private or public. * It sounds like its really steep not slightly, and at 5000 feet elevation you are going to have a short growing season and may have very heavy snow.*
> Most places in the west don't have intact mineral rights. One reason being in many areas the RR was given every other section and they kept the them. However this may be the least of your worries.


If you haven't seen that video, featuring Sepp Holzer who lives at a higher elevation, I posted, be sure and watch it. Your opinion of high elevation gardening will change!

I live in the PNW, and yes, one has to be very careful to insure Mineral Rights are included in the Bundle of Rights, and the Property is Fee Simple. I am a Managing Broker, wouldn't consider buying a property without Mineral Rights. However, depending on where this property is, those Mineral Rights may never be an issue for mtnjim. We owned a property, in town, just an acre. DH had purchased it, not knowing he didn't own Mineral Rights (before we met). Where it was located? There would be zero mining allowed, so not a problem.

I'd agree with others posting, it is very important you find out well depth, so get in touch with some of the neighboring property owners, and ask. In addition, I'd bring up the Mineral Rights, as they may know something...

When purchasing property, I ALWAYS tell folks to go meet the neighbors, as there is always more to find out about the area, the property, and sometimes meeting them is the end of the sale. 

I got a PM from a very sad gal who got royally ripped off. It sounds like she has a legal case, but an Attorney will confirm that for her, as I can't. She has bad neighbors, into drugs, too...

You are seeing this before you Close on it in Escrow, aren't you?


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## Kasidy (Oct 20, 2002)

I do not want to sound too negative, but. . . . We live 30 miles west of Great Falls on 240 acres. 160 irrigated and the rest dry land. The difference between the amount/quality/type of plant material on the two types of ground is pretty massive. We have had a lot of dry years lately---the 14 inches (at best) of annual precipitation that dry land gets will not grow a lot of pasture! And if you want to start new trees you will need to irrigate them the first few years. $1800 per acre seems like a lot for dry land. Maybe you are paying for the view!! Do check the well depths in the area---many places have to haul water.
That distance to the interstate can be intimidating when we do have snow--there is a lot of wind in this area and the stuff really drifts! Be sure to have four wheel drive and chains. 
And eastern Montana is a lot different from western Montana. I hope you love it as much as we do when you get here. But I would feel much happier for you if you had come out here and checked it out first.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

High altitude gardening in the dryer areas of the west are different than in areas that get more rainfall. We had a neighbor that tried that with terracing, mixing soils, heavy compost. He lost the farm to foreclosure. 

Did you see how much difference there is in elevation? That is going to be really steep. It is beautiful tho.

If you are sure it comes with first water rights, be sure you know how deep the area wells are, and how many are dry holes.

I love MT, my family goes back over a hundred years there, I don't want to discourage you , just don't want you to get taken advantage of. There are different things to worry about buying land in different places.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

lorichristie said:


> When purchasing property, I ALWAYS tell folks to go meet the neighbors, as there is always more to find out about the area, the property, and * sometimes meeting them is the end of the sale.*


I found this particularly true if one or more of the neighbors was wanting to buy the property themselves, or simply didnt want the property next door to be sold.


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## Lizza (Nov 30, 2005)

Personally, I would never buy something I had not seen in person. Also if you are from the city (?) then I'm not sure you understand what 10 miles of dirt road, in the dead of winter, means. Also water, since you haven't taken the time to figure out how deep wells are or the possibility that you might not hit water, I'm not sure you understand what it means to not have a good well on your land. This is very important, like right up there with having deeded access to your land. 

Why the rush? Why not take your time to find something that you can visit at least once before you sign on the dotted line?

I don't mean to rain on your parade at all, only things to think about. I hope it all works out.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

mtnjim, are you moving forward? Have you gotten in touch with any of the neighbors to find out well depths in the area, quality of well water, other issues or concerns they have? Have you considered flying out a trusted friend or family member to go check it out for you?

If you haven't seen Sepp Holzer's video, it is a must if you buy this property!


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I don't think Holzers ideas will work very well in areas that don't get much rainfall and a lot of wind. Most mountain land in this part of the country has little top soil, then decomposed granite, on granite. Our neighbor tried some terracing, it collapsed in the first year. The combination of dryness and the underlying granite make it not only hard to terrace , but the decomposed granite has a tendency to slip. I don't think you could Terrence land that is that that steep without a high cost. The 500 foot in elevation in 1300 feet is really steep. I would not buy this sight unseen. I would want to drive the road as well. Ten miles of dirt road in that area of the country may not give you year round access. Are all of the roads right up to the property county owned? It may be fine, but I would have a lot of questions and look at it my self, especially if it is in some kind of "subdivision".


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

Molly, you made your own case for your area, which doesn't sound good for that gardening method, but not all mountainous areas are like yours. Sepp Holzer lives high up in the mtns, so it has mainly to do with soil and subsurface conditions. I've seen his methods used in CO, so there are areas it does work in.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

My point was that the eastern front around Great Falls is similar to our area, but dryer. They average 14inches of precip, we average 17. I believe the soil make up is similar as well. While this type of gardening may work in areas with deeper soil, or more moisture I don't think it is feasible in some areas. I hope the OP does some more research before he spends his money. A deep well is expensive, if you have to drill more than one and the best amount of water you get is a gallon a minute it can ruin homesteading for you. The number of sheep the land will support would be important to know as well. With high and dry land you don't have a very long summer or a lot of regrowth. I would think you would figure this area by acres per animal, not animals per acre. I don't know, but the county agent would or people at the U of MT or MT State.

This land may be fine for what the OP wants. I just think he needs more information before he buys land without seeing it and knowing the facts he needs to know. At the very least I would think he should have a buyers agent to represent him and find the answers to questions he doesn't know he has.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

Molly Mckee said:


> This land may be fine for what the OP wants. I just think he needs more information before he buys land without seeing it and knowing the facts he needs to know. At the very least I would think he should have a buyers agent to represent him and find the answers to questions he doesn't know he has.


Yes, it would have been good had he an Agent, but he is past that point, already has made an offer. I had previously suggested he send out a trusted family member or close friend to check it out before buying, also get well information, too. That would be very disappointing if he also had soil/subsurface conditions like you do.

We live on the East facing side of a small mountain, have completely different soil than the other side! That is only walking distance away... Our soil is much better, but we do have rocks, even boulders...but good soil, not clay. It helps that our property was never graded or leveled. Another interesting fact, just due to the side our property faces, our produce is ready a few weeks later than a nearby neighbor just over the other side, facing West. Our cool weather crops last about a month longer, though. We both have unobstructed sunlight for our garden areas. The main difference is that we get our sun earlier in morning, while he gets his later and about an hour longer of the afternoon sun.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

We are at 3000 feet and about 800feet higher than friends down the road. You would think that if anything our growing season would be shorter than theirs, instead it's about three weeks longer both in the spring and fall. There is some kind of natural air inversion that keeps us warmer and frost free much longer. We are on a ridge with southern exposure, and our micro climates are very different. You find thing like this in the mountains, water can be the same way. A good well on one property, dry holes slightly lower or higher. It's interesting if you are not on the bad side of the equation.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

Even our trees are different! Our 5 acre forest is mossy, lots of Swordferns, Cedars, Maples, Alders, and some Fir. The topography slopes down, almost like a terracing, down to a more widely semi-level area, where there is a natural spring. On the West facing side, no Alders or Maple, mostly Fir, with some Cedars. Our orchards also do differently. This past year, our Pears did great, but the other guys' didn't. We also had better apples, lots more of them. Sepp Holzer's methods would work great here. When we get some heavy equipment or have the extra money, we will have some terracing done! I'd really enjoy using that gardening technique.


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## mtnjim (Jan 28, 2013)

I have requested to extend the escrow by a few weeks so I can go and visit the land and do some more research talking to the locals. If it can't be extended it looks like I should take your guys advice; cancel the purchase and put more time into finding the perfect land.

Thanks for the advice


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I hope this works for you! If they won't extend the escrow I think you have your answer. You want a wonderful place, not a noose around your neck.

In answer to your original question, you probably can't find a place in this part of the west with mineral rights. So while I would prefer to have the rights, you probably won't find them intact. It's just not the way things have been done in this part of the country. If you do find them still with land the present owner is going to keep them, or want way more than they are worth to sell them. Good luck and let us know how it goes.


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## mtnjim (Jan 28, 2013)

They agreed to a 1 week extension... I guess I know where I am headed this weekend


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## ozarkchaz (Feb 4, 2005)

Good for you Jim, Due Diligence pays off.


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

Color me jealous.  Congrats!


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

mtnjim said:


> They agreed to a 1 week extension... I guess I know where I am headed this weekend


I am praying for a happy ending to this story


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

lorichristie said:


> I am praying for a happy ending to this story


...and I for a happy begining.


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## mtnjim (Jan 28, 2013)

Just got back from the land. Was a fun adventure. It just snowed a decent amount there so 10 miles of dirt road unplowed in a rental car was interesting. Most of the creeks on the map were flowing too and no bridges, so had to drive right across them.

It has amazing views at the peak, and only a few cabins I saw in the last few miles of the road. Can see no signs of civilization from the land except one other well kept cabin.

I didn't see anyone there so didn't really get to learn anything about the neighbors. 

I took this picture from the highest point on my land, gonna finalize escrow tomorrow


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

Congratulations, looks beautiful!!! Did you find out about typical well depths? That would have been my biggest concern.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I'm glad you know what you are getting into. Ten miles on dirt roads covered with snow in a rental car would be enough to discourage most people!


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

If I lived there, I'd simply plan on being there all Winter long, without leaving to go anywhere. That just takes careful planning, including shopping in bulk, and not needing to work outside your home. What is the timeline of your plans?

mtnjim, also would be interested to know more about your soil conditions. I know of folks at 5,000 ft using Sepp Holzer's methods in CO, but Molly made an excellent point about subsoil conditions. I hope you have good soil conditions on at least part of the property that would work for gardening for your own needs. 

We have multiple micro-climates on our property, due to the sloping topography, towering trees 100' with some taller bordering three sides, and being East facing.


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## mtnjim (Jan 28, 2013)

There is a well about 100yards from my property only 44ft deep according to montana's database.

I didn't have a shovel on hand today, but there was some sort of soil for the first 6 inches at least (not just rock). But besides that my soil knowledge is pretty limited
The info on the nearby well in the database said the top 2 ft were top soil, and then gravel.

I am probably just going to go for a few weeks/weekends this year and maybe next year due to work, not sure the plan after that but hopefully fulltime


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

I have a good feeling about the place after this latest post  You have options for gardening, I wager, too.


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