# Medium sized LGD for free range chickens?



## JohnHoward

Hi all. I am new here. I am looking for recommendations for a medium sized dog that can lived unfenced on my farm and protect my chickens from predators. 

Let me tell you about myself. I live on a 20 acre farm in a rural setting in west central Texas with no nearby neighbors. I have raised a totally free range flock of chickens for many years. The battle with predators has been constant to say the least. I have lost literally many hundreds of birds to them. After many years of dedicated breeding in an attempt to create a landrace breed that could be more predator resistant, I had about 40 birds that had proven themselves to be good at staying alive on my farm. But the big problem comes at night when the chickens just hypnotized TV diners for predators. Recently this proved disastrous when I took a two week vacation, and returned to find a few bird left of my free range flock. From the evidence, they birds were killed at night do to the lack of human activity on the farm and the lack of a good LGD. 

Over the years I have gone through a few dogs trying to find one that could live on my farm and provide some deterrence for predators. Many years ago I had a stray mutt I picked up off the street that was actually pretty good. He had no interest in the chickens and lived unfenced on the farm for years without wandering off. He would bark if he heard something messing with the chickens at night and that seemed to be enough to keep the predators at bay. Just a good ol farm dog. He died a few years ago and since then I have had a yellow lab, a golden retriever, a Lab mix and German Shepard. None of these worked out. Either I could not get them to stop killing chickens or I had to keep them penned up to keep them from ruining off. These dogs were all rehomed with families that were more appropriate for them.

I have looked around for breeds that are good with chickens and all the info I find says that these enormous breed dogs like Great Pyrenees are what is recommended. I really don't want a huge horse size dog. I am hoping someone here knows of a more reasonable sized dogs in the 40 to 60 pound range that might be suitable for my needs. I realize that any dog will need training, but it helps if you start out with a dog that has the basic instincts you are looking for. 

Thanks in advanced.


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## Moboiku

What size are your predators? If you are dealing with raccoons or foxes, a smaller dog might work but if you are dealing with coyotes, mountain lions, bears, bobcats, you need a dog large enough to take them on.

The first thing you need though, is fencing. While there are dogs who will stay close to home without it, they are rare and there is no way to predict where you'll find them. In other words, there is no breed that will consistently NOT roam if it has the opportunity to do so.

In your situation I'd have a pair of LGDs. They don't have to be Great Pyrenees, which have a reputation for roaming large areas. There are many other breeds of LGD! All will roam if they have the opportunity though, so again, you need fencing. Be aware that LGDs typically do not bond with poultry as they were bred to bond with sheep and goats. However they can and will protect poultry from predation by keeping anything off your property that "does not belong". Also be aware that most LGDs kill a chicken or two in their adolescent phase, but if you get through that, they will bring the losses to a screaming halt.

I now have LGDs to protect my sheep and goats. Because I didn't want the care and feeding of two large-breed dogs, I fought getting them for several years, believing that the very good fencing I'd invested a substantial amount installing should keep them safe. In the end though, with the financial investment I had in the stock, I couldn't afford to lose any more to predators, so I gave in and got the dogs. Yes, they are an expense too - but if I never lose another lamb, the amount it costs to feed them annually will be worth it. Only you can decide if you can continue to afford to lose your chickens at the rate that it sounds like you do.


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## JohnHoward

My predators are generally small. My number one predator is the Owls, though. I bet I have lost 400 birds to them over the years. The cowards attack at night when the chicken has no defense. Unfortunately, some idiots decided that homesteaders do not have the right to defend their livestock from these predators, so there is not much I can do about them. Generally if their is a dog on the lose that will bark if he hears something at or move in the direction of the noise, the owls are contained. An occasional grey fox or feral house cat can be a problem (until I shoot them). Never had a real problem with coyotes even though there are some around. They are heavily hunted and are very wary of human dwellings. Bobcats I exterminated on appearance (they are just so easy to trap). Never had a problem with raccoons (I also trap and kill them).

As far as fencing goes, that is impossible. How do you build a fence to keep in birds that can fly (and my special breed can fly as good as any wild pheasant)? Like you, most people's experience with flocks and LGDs is limited to goats and sheep that can be fenced and you think along those lines. Free range chickens cannot be fenced and need to range far and wide foraging for food (that is why they are free range). Likewise the are also much lighter then production breeds and have larger wingspans, so they are agile and can fly hundreds of yards at a time and to the tops of trees. My birds can range over my entire 20 acres. To build a large fence in area would cost thousands and would accomplish nothing more then restricting the dogs movement, but not the chickens movement, which would defeat the purpose of having the dog.

The main reason I don't want a enormous dog is not the cost of feeding it. My farm is a family place and I have lots of little children that come to visit (grandchildren, great-nieces and nephews, friends grand kids, etc.) I have lived a long time and I don't trust any dog completely, especially one that can kill a small child with a single bite. It does not matter to me how "Friendly" they are claimed to be, any and every dog can snap at a child, but the size of the dog determines if that snap is a minor bite or a life changing event. 

I just need a dog that will bark and run to a problem area. I have not seen a predator here that would challenge a dog. Most won't even come around if a dog is on the loose. They do tend to learn if the dog is penned up though. After a while, if the dog is penned, they will stop listening to it's barking, because they know it can't get to them. This is why I need a dog that can be unpenned, especially at night when most of the attacks occur.


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## motdaugrnds

I've read and even re-read what you've said about your situation; and I do not believe there is a remedy suitable to you. You're wanting a resolution that will restrain your dog without restraining your dog. This sounds as ludicrous as trying to put a top/covering over your trees to keep your high-flying fowl in. 

I'm wondering about setting up deterrants against those owls.....like maybe something hung on the top of several poles throughout your acreage???


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## wiscto

I guess I don't completely understand why they can't be cooped at night. I used to help my friend with his pheasants, and I know cooping them was hard because they spook and hurt themselves on whatever is over their heads. But do you have netting over the top? Is the owl ripping through it?

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibPmWANuz0E[/ame]

Could string some fladry over that, too.


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## BohemianWaxwing

Maybe you could consider crossing your land race chickens with the owls to reduce the predation?! :icecream:


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## CountryMom22

Owls attack so quickly that a dog isn't going to be much of a deterrent. The only way to keep your chickens safe, is to teach them to roost in a secure building at night. Lock them in at night and let them out to free range again in the morning.

We do this even though our flock is confined on our property by a fence. The owls and hawks were not deterred by the dogs, or humans being outside unless the chickens were within 100 feet of us. We don't let the chickens out in the morning until the sun is up, or we are just feeding the owls.

Good luck with your predator troubles. It seems that chickens are just looking for a way to die!


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## Moboiku

I wasn't suggesting fencing for the birds - you need fencing to contain a dog.

You also need a coop that the birds can roost in at night -they will then be safe from owls.


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## motdaugrnds

WOW Now Wiscto that is the type of fencing I'ld be using if I had a lot of pheasant/quail that I wanted to free-range and still be safe from predators. That is great, though probably quite costly. There is certainly no need for a dog in there.


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## wiscto

motdaugrnds said:


> WOW Now Wiscto that is the type of fencing I'ld be using if I had a lot of pheasant/quail that I wanted to free-range and still be safe from predators. That is great, though probably quite costly. There is certainly no need for a dog in there.


Going to risk being yelled at for thread drift, but based on what you said, maybe it will be worth a look for JohnHoward. I don't know how many chickens he has, but maybe he can build a version that works for his birds as an overnight hotel of sorts. 

I looked into where my friend's netting actually comes from. He pretty much copies his pheasant supplier, and uses 2 inch heavy knotted netting for the pheasants, but that's because they're up here in Wisconsin and the lighter netting actually traps more ice and snow in the strands and that can put a lot of weight on the whole setup. Being in Texas, he might get away with the lighter netting, which is a little more than half that price. The owls might pull the lighter netting apart, especially the non-knotted stuff. 

Anyway. 1 roll of 2 inch heavy knotted netting is $92 for a 12.5' by 150' roll. So yea, I guess pretty expensive, especially if you have a lot of birds. Could slow down the owl predation, might save money in the end?

Here's their whole product list. http://www.3tproducts.com/shop/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=2 

Here's a how to video that my friend's bird supplier made for their clients. I used to live by their farm, and I've never heard of them having issues with birds of prey, though there were plenty around. Not sure what they did about the other predators. My friend's problem was *****, and ***** rip right through this stuff obviously, but JohnHoward seems to have that under control.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDOQQC40IDk[/ame]


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## JohnHoward

Thanks for all the replies. I appreciate all the advice. There have been a few wrong assumption made based on my lack of details. I never said that I do not have a coop for the birds to roost in at night. I actually have three large coops. At one time I had several hundred free range birds. The point I think that some missed is that the major loss that occured, happened when I was out of town and could not be here to lock the birds up at night.

After some more investigation with a local professional hunter, we determined that it was not an owl that was the cause of the recent killings. Possibly a coyote or a Bobcat with cubs.

I actually have two flock of chickens. I have a penned up flock for eggs and a free range landrace flock for insect control. The free range flock was the result of years of intentional breeding of heritage breeds in an attempt to create a breed of birds with a better capacity to self maintain in my region.

I have actually raised chickens quite successfully for almost 40 years. But most of that was in other third world countries where landrace birds are common as well as landrace dog breeds, which are perfectly suited for the type of service I require. 

To respond to motdaugrnds statement that want I want is ludicrous; I have actually had many dogs that fit the bill for what I want, just not in the United States of America. Ever since moving here in 2006, I have struggled to find a decent well balanced dog. Where as it was easy to find a good farm dog in other countries where subsistence style farming is common and results in very hardy balance breeds of animals; it does seem that in this country man's intense breeding effort to extract certain qualities out of dogs at the sacrifice of balance, has resulted in dogs that have a very narrow usage. While they might be good for one thing, they may be useless for other things. In 30 years of owning dogs in other countries along side chickens, I never once had to pen up my dogs, never once had them kill a chicken, and the dogs were all excellent hunting dogs and even though being small, could be deadly in a fight with a wild animal, while being gentle as a lamb with humans. My dogs did not know what a leash or a fence was and never left the homestead unless I called them to go hunting with me. 

So what I am looking for, is something I know exist, because I have had many dogs that fit this description in the past. I just don't know where to find one in this country. My hope was that some people here would have some insight into some dog qualities that might be a starting point, but I am getting the feeling that once again, I will have to build a breed from scratch by undoing all the breeding work Americans have done to destroy good balanced qualities in dogs. This is what I had to do with chickens as well, for the same reason.

I am not trying to be abrasive here, it just gets frustrating to constantly be told that what I want does not exist, when I know it does, and then realize that I might have to spend years building my own breed to get it.

Thanks again for all the constructive advice given. I guess my search fora good farm dog will continue.


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## kdalton324

John I feel your pain here. I have a small homesteading property and posted a little while ago about looking for a lgd. People immediately began posting that I was wrong and I don't know what I'm talking about, when my mother in law( who lives with me) has been working with animals for over 20 years. The dogs that are bred today are a far cry in comparison to what they were originally, but there are still a few ethical breeders out there who want a solid even tempered dog vs what kennel clubs call the new standard.


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## wiscto

JohnHoward said:


> Thanks for all the replies. I appreciate all the advice. There have been a few wrong assumption made based on my lack of details. I never said that I do not have a coop for the birds to roost in at night. I actually have three large coops. At one time I had several hundred free range birds. The point I think that some missed is that the major loss that occured, happened when I was out of town and could not be here to lock the birds up at night.
> 
> After some more investigation with a local professional hunter, we determined that it was not an owl that was the cause of the recent killings. Possibly a coyote or a Bobcat with cubs.
> 
> I actually have two flock of chickens. I have a penned up flock for eggs and a free range landrace flock for insect control. The free range flock was the result of years of intentional breeding of heritage breeds in an attempt to create a breed of birds with a better capacity to self maintain in my region.
> 
> I have actually raised chickens quite successfully for almost 40 years. But most of that was in other third world countries where landrace birds are common as well as landrace dog breeds, which are perfectly suited for the type of service I require.
> 
> To respond to motdaugrnds statement that want I want is ludicrous; I have actually had many dogs that fit the bill for what I want, just not in the United States of America. Ever since moving here in 2006, I have struggled to find a decent well balanced dog. Where as it was easy to find a good farm dog in other countries where subsistence style farming is common and results in very hardy balance breeds of animals; it does seem that in this country man's intense breeding effort to extract certain qualities out of dogs at the sacrifice of balance, has resulted in dogs that have a very narrow usage. While they might be good for one thing, they may be useless for other things. In 30 years of owning dogs in other countries along side chickens, I never once had to pen up my dogs, never once had them kill a chicken, and the dogs were all excellent hunting dogs and even though being small, could be deadly in a fight with a wild animal, while being gentle as a lamb with humans. My dogs did not know what a leash or a fence was and never left the homestead unless I called them to go hunting with me.
> 
> So what I am looking for, is something I know exist, because I have had many dogs that fit this description in the past. I just don't know where to find one in this country. My hope was that some people here would have some insight into some dog qualities that might be a starting point, but I am getting the feeling that once again, I will have to build a breed from scratch by undoing all the breeding work Americans have done to destroy good balanced qualities in dogs. This is what I had to do with chickens as well, for the same reason.
> 
> I am not trying to be abrasive here, it just gets frustrating to constantly be told that what I want does not exist, when I know it does, and then realize that I might have to spend years building my own breed to get it.
> 
> Thanks again for all the constructive advice given. I guess my search fora good farm dog will continue.


Well, I'll apologize for making assumptions. For what it's worth I didn't doubt that you have been successful, just thought maybe you haven't had owl issues in the past. I assumed because you thought it was an owl that at least some of your chickens were in the open at night.

I usually try to let others speak up about dogs as LGDs, I'm basically a librarian on that subject at this point, which most homesteaders don't find very useful. But I've done a lot of research, too. I actually think Maremma could work for you if they're raised with the chickens and trained correctly. Of the 24/7 day and night LGD breeds, I've been told that they're the most likely to stay near their flock rather than patrol way out looking for bad guys, which sounds good to me if you have an owl slipping in at night on the wing. If it's a bobcat, they'll be given the eviction notice by the dogs.

Anyway, might want to check a couple of these out.

http://www.maremmaclub.com/

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCV3kNVwBMI[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2xPfTu7EuE[/ame]


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## motdaugrnds

JohnHoward, I guess it was I who misunderstood, though your "location" did state you lived in Texas. Thus, what I interpreted from your original post (..."a dog that can live unfenced and protect my chickens from predators.") was that you wanted a dog that did not need a fence so it could protect your fowl who flew really well and that you have not been able to find a dog (other than that "stray mutt"). In my somewhat limited understanding of LGDs, they pretty much stay with whatever they see as their charges; and since your birds apparently travel great distances, I had this image in my head of their going outside your 20-acre boundary and you wouldn't want your dog to do that. Your stating "To build a large fence in area would cost thousands and would accomplish nothing more then restricting the dogs movement, but not the chickens movement, which would defeat the purpose of having the dog." told me you needed any dog you get to stay with your fowl no matter where they chose to travel. (Hmmm here in Virginia a neighbor often frowns on birds/dogs that belong to another visiting their land. Thus, my comment about ludicry was based on my belief you were in Texas as well as my own experiences here.)

I can understand your experiences with such a situation can be quite different in other countries; thus, a dog's traveling long distances "outside" your own personal land boundaries may not be such a big ordeal in another area. However, here in the USA it could get you into trouble.


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## Moboiku

JohnHoward, you might find a better option is to install automatic chicken doors on your coops. I have one that is powered by solar, so I didn't need to run electricity to the coop, and it has a light sensor that tells it to open at first light and close after dark. The light sensor has never "mis-fired", even when the day turns very dark due to a thunderstorm, and has allowed us to securely lock the chickens in at night whether we are here or not. Other options for automatic doors include a timer, so rather than the door opening and closing according to the amount of light, you set the time you want it to open and close. I didn't like the sound of that option as I'd have to adjust the time multiple times throughout the year as day length varies, but the people who have the timer always seem satisfied with it.

The auto door is an upfront cost but once installed, there are no further expenses involved and a good one will last for many years.


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## CountryMom22

Now that the OP has clarified the situation, I agree with the automatic door.

Or you can spend several generations breeding your own line of dogs to protect your flock.

Or you can import one of these dogs that you have come in contact with in other countries, if you still have contacts that you could trust to find you what you are looking for. That could also become a starting point for your own dog line.

You might find that option 3 would be quicker as well as producing another source of income for your homestead. I'm sure many homesteaders could use a dog like you are describing.

Good Luck.


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## frogmammy

My daughter's family had a Pyr/Anatolian mix for years that totally ptotected their birds, and other animals they had, AND the kids. They are BIG into birds, had some expensive birds and until they got Dolly, lost a LOT of birds, and several thousand $ a year. Cut the bird loss WAY down.

Dolly was bought from an Amish/Mennonite fellow who raised the pups with animals and to be farm dogs, and had done so for years. They found the fellow by asking vets in the area for the name of someone reputable who raised LGD's for farm work.

Unfortunately, the fellow's wife died and the man sold his place and moved....and the family can't remember his name. 

Might work for you to ask around at area vets, see if they know someone with good dogs.

Mon


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## SwartzFarm

If your chickens go inside to roost they do make a automatic chicken door closer. Some are on timers and at least one is solar powered. This what we are thinking about at some point. At the time we have a 15 year old teenager that is the auto closer thou not completely reliable.
I'm told that just the smell of a dog around will help some with most 4 legged predators. so we are looking in to a boarder collie.


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## klcardella

Moboiku said:


> In your situation I'd have a pair of LGDs. They don't have to be Great Pyrenees, which have a reputation for roaming large areas. There are many other breeds of LGD! All will roam if they have the opportunity though, so again, you need fencing. Be aware that LGDs typically do not bond with poultry as they were bred to bond with sheep and goats. However they can and will protect poultry from predation by keeping anything off your property that "does not belong". Also be aware that most LGDs kill a chicken or two in their adolescent phase, but if you get through that, they will bring the losses to a screaming halt.


I totally agree with this. Lost a couple of chicken with adolescent dogs, but well worth it in the end. They do not bond, but will protect. 

You may want to look at Akbash or Maremmas. They are large enough to take on any predators, but not quite as large a a Pyr. Definitely get a pair. Putting a lone LGD in a pasture is setting him/her up for failure.


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## barnbilder

You're in Texas. Get a blue lacy. I've always had good luck with the various cur breeds, like mountain curs, blackmouth curs, as chicken yard dogs. They are hunting dogs, but unlike hounds, they generally like to have somebody to go with them, close range hunters. Most will stay around the place as good as anything. You might have to go out and shoot things out of trees at night when you hear them barking. The people that developed these breeds, often fed them to the buzzards if they killed chickens. It's against the law for you to kill owls. These dogs are athletic, and have quite a bit of vertical skill, if something is making a chicken squawk, it better fly away quickly if it doesn't want to die. No problems with bobcats, coyotes, or anything like that, a pair of them, while more likely to wander, would have no problem with a bear. They have been historically used, in your area, for your purpose, far longer than any of these new fangled curiosity breeds. Many of which came from countries in which large predators have been all but exterminated for centuries, and others whose claim to guarding flocks from wolves, come from countries where the wolves are no bigger than our coyotes.


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## JohnHoward

Just to update this thread. I ended up with a Black Mouth Cur. 












I have to say, he is just about the perfect dog and just what I wanted. He is super friendly and very smart. He sense your emotions and does what you want without you telling him. He cares for the chickens like they were his own kids. In fact, hens lay eggs in his dog house in between his legs. During the day, he lays around and sleeps a lot and does not cause unnecessary ruckus. At night he patrols the property and only barks at serious threats. He is a medium dog, but has the bark of a huge dog. I have not had a problem with predators since I got him. 

If all black Mouth Curs are like him, I would say that this is the perfect small farm dog breed.


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## Martlet

Congrats! If I had seen this thread earlier I would have suggested this very breed.


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## JohnHoward

Martlet said:


> Congrats! If I had seen this thread earlier I would have suggested this very breed.


I had never heard of this breed before. Years ago, I had another dog that was very similar to this dog (Puppy, is the new dogs name; Mudge was the old dogs name). Mudge was the same size, had the same build, same coloring, and had the same broken over ears as Puppy. He did not have a black mount though. But as far as personality, he was very much the same as Puppy. I never knew what breed he was because we found Mudge as a puppy in the middle of a busy highway. I bet he was at least part Black Mouth Cur. What do you think?


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## MainehomesteadR

Doesn't sound to me like you need a livestock guardian dog at all. Use a portable poultry fence, yes, I know the chickens can fly over it-- but they usually don't if you give them enough foraging space. And why are the chickens not locked up at night?? that would completely solve the owl predation problem. 



JohnHoward said:


> My predators are generally small. My number one predator is the Owls, though. I bet I have lost 400 birds to them over the years. The cowards attack at night when the chicken has no defense.
> The main reason I don't want a enormous dog is not the cost of feeding it.
> 
> I just need a dog that will bark and run to a problem area. I have not seen a predator here that would challenge a dog. Most won't even come around if a dog is on the loose. They do tend to learn if the dog is penned up though. After a while, if the dog is penned, they will stop listening to it's barking, because they know it can't get to them. This is why I need a dog that can be unpenned, especially at night when most of the attacks occur.


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## Martlet

MainehomesteadR said:


> Doesn't sound to me like you need a livestock guardian dog at all. Use a portable poultry fence, yes, I know the chickens can fly over it-- but they usually don't if you give them enough foraging space. And why are the chickens not locked up at night?? that would completely solve the owl predation problem.


Locking them up at night doesn't solve all predation problems. I've had owls and hawks snag chickens before dark. An LGD is the perfect solution. I use one myself.


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## Maura

For owls, something different would be needed. But for your actual bad boy predators, curs have been used for generations as an all round farm dog. They are not a typical LGD, but are better suited to your situation.

Take good care of. him.


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## Bearfootfarm

MainehomesteadR said:


> Doesn't sound to me like you need a livestock guardian dog at all.


Most people don't need a real LGD, especially for chickens.
A real LGD shouldn't be running loose anyway unless you have thousands of acres.


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## Martlet

Bearfootfarm said:


> Most people don't need a real LGD, especially for chickens.
> A real LGD shouldn't be running loose anyway unless you have thousands of acres.


Why? What's your definition of "real LGD"?


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## MainehomesteadR

Martlet said:


> Why? What's your definition of "real LGD"?


Any of the well known super large livestock guardian breeds of course.  Anatolian Shepherd, Gr Pyre,, etc etc those dogs were bred to do their job independently without oversight. They were bred to cover vast area of territory and to defend it vigorously . They can work on smaller farms IF it's entirely fenced in, and IF everyone understands they are a working partner, not a poodle.


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## Martlet

MainehomesteadR said:


> Any of the well known super large livestock guardian breeds of course.  Anatolian Shepherd, Gr Pyre,, etc etc those dogs were bred to do their job independently without oversight. They were bred to cover vast area of territory and to defend it vigorously . They can work on smaller farms IF it's entirely fenced in, and IF everyone understands they are a working partner, not a poodle.


Ok, so you're referring to breeds, not genre. That makes sense, but I'm careful about using the term LGD when referring to breeds. You can train many different dogs, with varying degrees of success, to be a LGD. I have a BMD that makes a GREAT LGD and free ranges with most of my animals. He comes in and out as he wishes. Got rid of an owl for us last month, too.


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## MainehomesteadR

no I am referring to genre-- they were all bred to work independent of humans. solve problems on their own. Burmese Mountain Dog is one of those breeds. There are many. Great Pyrs are getting a rough time because so many breeders are selling them into pet homes-- check out Big Fluffy Dog Rescue in TN if you are looking for a good pet that's big.


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## Martlet

MainehomesteadR said:


> no I am referring to genre-- they were all bred to work independent of humans. solve problems on their own. Burmese Mountain Dog is one of those breeds. There are many. Great Pyrs are getting a rough time because so many breeders are selling them into pet homes-- check out Big Fluffy Dog Rescue in TN if you are looking for a good pet that's big.


Then you are absolutely incorrect. A "real LGD" can be perfect running loose on small farms if properly trained. Mine is a living example of that.


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## JohnHoward

I am not into breeds, terms or genre. I am into functionality. If a dog does what I want it to do, then that is the dog I want. In my life, I have had more mutt dogs that fit my needs then breed dogs. In my experience, breed dogs tend to have great qualities in one area, but be completely unbalanced in another. I like balanced dogs. I don't like dogs that have been bred with instincts so strong in one area, they can't control themselves. If dogs were lemmings, I would want the one that came to the edge of the cliff and said, "Heck, no way. I ain't jumping off like the rest of you instinct driven idiots"


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## MainehomesteadR

Martlet said:


> Then you are absolutely incorrect. A "real LGD" can be perfect running loose on small farms if properly trained. Mine is a living example of that.


You just got lucky-- any breeder, any breed organization will tell you livestock guardian dogs must be kept fenced.


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## Martlet

MainehomesteadR said:


> You just got lucky-- any breeder, any breed organization will tell you livestock guardian dogs must be kept fenced.


Then obviously they are wrong.


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## MainehomesteadR

so only you are correct ? you must be a joy to be around.


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## JohnHoward

MainehomesteadR said:


> so only you are correct ? you must be a joy to be around.


I don't think there is a right or wrong here. I think it is matter of preference . Some people desire a dog for a very specific purpose and want a dog that has undergone intense breeding to cause that dog to conform to the specific purpose. While this might be good for the person that desires this, it creates an unbalanced dog that cannot control itself, thus requiring the owner to be forced to control the dog through imprisoning them inside a fence or on a chain. 

I think the only matter of disagreement here is over what a person's personal IDEA of the way things SUPPOSED to be, rather then the way things CAN be. You are of the opinion that if a dog is "PROPERLY" bred for a LGD, that it then, as a matter of fact, MUST be fenced. So your idea of proper breeding, is that a properly bred dog must be an unbalanced dog that has to be controlled by the owner, and if a dog does not meet this requirment, it therefore must not have been "Properly " bred. If this is your mentality, then it would then be natural for you to never have experienced owning a normal balanced dog, because you would have rejected them as not being a properly bred dog, based on the fact that they did not behave in the unbalanced manner you require them to. 

The bottom line is, each person wants a dog that fits their image of what that dog could be. So it is not about what a dog CAN be, it's about what we WANT IT to be, we try to force everyone else to agree with what WE WANT, because obviously it must be the right way for a dog to be.


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## Martlet

Well said.


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## Bearfootfarm

Martlet said:


> Then you are absolutely incorrect. A "real LGD" can be perfect running loose on small farms if properly trained. Mine is a living example of that.


You can't "teach" a dog not to cross property lines.
You really don't know where the dog goes when you're asleep, or not there.

Also, the animals that real LGD breeds are meant to protect shouldn't be running around loose, and the dog should be contained with them.

Not every mutt is a real "LGD" because it's not a matter of "training" that gives them the traits. It's a result of many years of breeding.


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## Bearfootfarm

JohnHoward said:


> a properly bred dog must be *an unbalanced dog* that has to be controlled by the owner


LOL
That's funny stuff.
It's also the sort of thing that makes me avoid this section most of the time, so I'll leave you to those fantasies.



> I am not into breeds, terms or genre.


That's stating the obvious or you'd understand the true meaning of the term "LGD"


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## Martlet

Bearfootfarm said:


> You can't "teach" a dog not to cross property lines.
> You really don't know where the dog goes when you're asleep, or not there.
> 
> Also, the animals that real LGD breeds are meant to protect shouldn't be running around loose, and the dog should be contained with them.
> 
> Not every mutt is a real "LGD" because it's not a matter of "training" that gives them the traits. It's a result of many years of breeding.


I absolutely know where my dog goes. All my dogs have GPS. I don't train my animals to respect property lines. I train them to respect property features. 

Some things f you sound like you don't spend much time training your dog, OR haven't worked much with professional dog trainers. My dogs are tools. They do what I tell them to almost 100% of the time.


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## Martlet

Bearfootfarm said:


> LOL
> That's funny stuff.
> It's also the sort of thing that makes me avoid this section most of the time, so I'll leave you to those fantasies.
> 
> 
> That's stating the obvious or you'd understand the true meaning of the term "LGD"


"True" meaning? The TRUE meaning is a dog that guards livestock. YOUR meaning isn't the true meaning, just as he stated. You confuse breed with job. They aren't interchangeable.


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## JohnHoward

Bearfootfarm said:


> LOL
> That's funny stuff.
> It's also the sort of thing that makes me avoid this section most of the time, so I'll leave you to those fantasies.
> 
> 
> That's stating the obvious or you'd understand the true meaning of the term "LGD"


And once again, "Mr. I only know how to offer criticism and sarcasm" rears his head again.

If you have an opposing opinion, then please articulate your opinion it in an intelligent respectful manner. This is not twitter. You are allowed more then 200 characters.


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## barnbilder

Glad you are enjoying your BMC, I have enjoyed mine through the years. Most lines of them have been bred for a very long time for doing exactly what you are trying to do. Very valuable farmsteading dogs, can do the task of many breeds, and do it better than many. Socialization is important if you want them to be friendly with strangers, if not socialized they will usually keep people in their vehicle until you get there, maybe even bite the tires a little. What I always liked about mine, for the most part they are bay dogs, not kill dogs. If they ran up on something that they decided didn't belong, they would overwhelm it and force it to back up against something, and be vocal until I got there, if I gave the signal, it was over, If it was something I didn't want harmed, I had that decision to make. Caught lots of wandering dogs that way, and returned them to where they belonged. 

Good stock dogs if turned on to it early and worked with, the better ones I had used appropriate force as necessary, whether working rough bulls, or sheep with lambs. The same dogs would tree ***** or squirrels depending on if it was dark or light out, if you picked up a gun and bid them to follow you. Stayed around the house, where the chickens and stuff hung out, not wandering off or going to cavort with non pack members.

Will warn you, had one that was too aggressive, socialization was not effective, he was a one person dog, listened to me, but basically viewed everyone else as an enemy. Eventually was "just not right in the head". Eyes turned red, jaw muscles swelled up, slobbered, and just wouldn't quit whatever it was that he was doing. Some of them have picked up a little pit here and there, and who knows what else for hog hunting, so like any hard breed of dog, you have to research what line you are getting, and handle them accordingly.

Recently, the rescues have taken to labeling everything and trying to pass it off as a breed, so there are a lot of people with black mouths that aren't really black mouths, more like lab pit crosses. Not that a lab pit cross would be that much different.

True, they are hunting dogs, but they don't behave anything like pure hounds, more like bird dogs, they have a pretty strong and intense connection with their handler, so not really like a long range scent hound, like many people are familiar with when admonishing people against using "hunting dogs" as farm dogs. That is not to say they won't take a scent and follow it and put game at the end of it when you catch up, but the handler has to do a lot of work to get them to understand that is what you expect them to do. As hunting dogs, they are more inclined to stay within a couple hundred yards of the handler and bay or tree anything they come across within that range.


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## jp_over

Good info here - we're looking for something similar to the OP. I'll have to give a thorough look at a blue lacy or BM cur.


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