# Why Angus? Why Black?



## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

Seriously, why Angus and Black? What is it about black angus cattle that they can demand a premium at sale?

Why does the color black demand a premium?

Why does angus demand a premium? 

a little excerpt from Psychology of Color



> *Psychology of Color: Black*
> 
> Black is the color of authority and power, stability and strength. It is also the color associated with intelligence (doctorate in black robe; black horn rimmed glasses, etc.) Black clothes make people appear thinner. It's a somber color sometimes associated with evil (the cowboy in the black hat was almost always the "bad guy"). In the western hemisphere black is associated with grieving. Black is a serious color that evokes strong emotions; it is easy to overwhelm people with too much black.
> 
> ...


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

Because the Angus Association did a marvelous marketing job.

If you're going to sell at the markets, the black calves bring a premium. If you're going to do the marketing yourself and sell direct it won't make any difference.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

tyusclan said:


> If you're going to do the marketing yourself and sell direct it won't make any difference.


I disagree. Being Angus can help in small scale marketing too. We have some locals that market in a small way their Angus beef and they get a premium for it.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

tyusclan said:


> Because the Angus Association did a marvelous marketing job.


Where did this originate? About what time did they start this all angus campaign? Does it really matter to the processors what breed the hanging carcass is?


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2010)

tyusclan said:


> Because the Angus Association did a marvelous marketing job.
> 
> If you're going to sell at the markets, the black calves bring a premium. If you're going to do the marketing yourself and sell direct it won't make any difference.


I saw an ad for Angus hotdogs.  Somehow I don't think anyone could really tell the difference if they didn't know.

As far as the Black Angus breed goes, I really like them. They are pretty to look at, and such a calm, nice breed.


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## oneokie (Aug 14, 2009)

CrashTestRanch said:


> Seriously, why Angus and Black? What is it about black angus cattle that they can demand a premium at sale?


There are many years of performance data available for Angus cattle. (EPD's) And Angus cattle are known for excellent feed conversion ratios and ADG rates.



> Why does the color black demand a premium?


 Because most black haired cattle have at least some Angus in their breeding.



> Why does angus demand a premium?


See my first response above.

A small example: Many years ago, I raised Angus and Beefmaster cattle.
One year I had an equal number of Angus and Beefmaster yearlings that were very close in weight. When I sold that group of cattle on the same day at auction, the black ones brought $25.00 per cwt. more than the red/rainbow Beefmasters.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

I have a farm just down the road that has "red" Angus, and that is not the only one around me either that has red angus, instead of the black ones.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

oneokie said:


> There are many years of performance data available for Angus cattle. (EPD's) And Angus cattle are known for excellent feed conversion ratios and ADG rates.


So how do we explain the premiums we see for longhorn?



arabian knight said:


> I have a farm just down the road that has "red" Angus, and that is not the only one around me either that has red angus, instead of the black ones.


Are these reds fetching the premiums the blacks are?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Supermarkets have found, as a result of the Angus Asso. ad campain, that people will pay more for Angus. They buy only Angus, so the slaughterhouses buy for that demand. That increased demand drives up the price of the finished cattle. Farmers selling young cattle see this increased demand and raise the kind that the market demands.

It is mostly marketing. Within every beef breed there are high and low quality cattle. Some is due to genentics, some due to growing conditions. But not all Angus beef is good and there are other breeds that have lots of high quality beef.

My Grandfather raised Polled Herefords for 50 years, in several different states and for a time was an instructor at Michigan State University's Beef program. There is a wealth of high quality genetics within that breed, but right now, you can make more money on a lower quality BLACK steer than you can a quality red and white one. The market has spoken, right or wrong.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

In my experience, in Michigan, Longhorns are in demand only to the guys that are competing in cattle roping events.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Supermarkets have found, as a result of the Angus Asso. ad campain, that people will pay more for Angus. They buy only Angus, so the slaughterhouses buy for that demand. That increased demand drives up the price of the finished cattle. Farmers selling young cattle see this increased demand and raise the kind that the market demands.
> 
> It is mostly marketing. Within every beef breed there are high and low quality cattle. Some is due to genentics, some due to growing conditions. But not all Angus beef is good and there are other breeds that have lots of high quality beef.
> 
> My Grandfather raised Polled Herefords for 50 years, in several different states and for a time was an instructor at Michigan State University's Beef program. There is a wealth of high quality genetics within that breed, but right now, you can make more money on a lower quality BLACK steer than you can a quality red and white one. The market has spoken, right or wrong.


And this is what's is driving me nuts...

an animal that is superior in every way except color and name fetches less than an animal that is backed by color and name only thru money and marketing gimmicks ...


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## ramiller5675 (Mar 31, 2009)

All I know is it is pretty easy for me to get really good registered Black Angus bulls locally for a reasonable price and I am getting calves that look like carbon-copies of their sire.

If I wanted to raise another breed of cattle, I am not so sure that it would be as easy to find good bulls for a good price. In other areas of the country, it might be a different story.


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

Please, no one misunderstand me. 

I like Angus cattle, and think they're a great breed, with many great qualities.

BUT the reason they bring a premium is because of the Angus Association's marketing.

And I'm sure Tinknal is correct that the Angus marketing can help even someone who markets direct themselves. But if you are direct marketing your own beef you can do the marketing yourself that Angus has done for their cattle. I probably should have said that it won't make _as much_ difference for someone who markets direct.


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

CrashTestRanch said:


> And this is what's is driving me nuts...
> 
> an animal that is superior in every way except color and name fetches less than an animal that is backed by color and name only thru money and marketing gimmicks ...


Exactly right.


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## oneokie (Aug 14, 2009)

CrashTestRanch said:


> So how do we explain the premiums we see for longhorn?


Niche market.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

There are some really good Angus cattle and the AAA has done a bang up job of marketing. If you want the convenience of hauling cattle to the sale barn as your marketing plan, the black ones will bring a little more most of the time. Even if you are marketing locker beef, Angus is the breed the public is most familiar with and they associate it with quality due to the aforementioned marketing. 

Unfortunately there are some trashy Angus cattle out there that people are making money with just because of their current popularity. Like when a breed of dog spikes in popularity and everybody and their brother becomes a breeder. Many of whom don't know or don't care about breeding for quality, just cashing in. 

When you are on top, there is no way to go but down. At some point Angus will lose some of their market share, it's inevitable, but for now they are the 900 pound gorilla of the beef business. Even the genetic defects that have surfaced in some of their most popular bloodlines hasn't seemed to slow them down.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

CrashTestRanch said:


> So how do we explain the premiums we see for longhorn?
> Are these reds fetching the premiums the blacks are?


 I do not know, I will have to ask.
But this is the 4th year that the red ones have been on my former veterinarians farm, this guy rents the pasture, which btw is a organic, and is 2 miles from me. 
He puts them on in the spring and off before winter sets in.
I would "think" they must be rather decent in price or this person would not be doing it year after year. But maybe because he can say they were raised organically, may add in there someplace. No chemicals or fertilizers have been on that pasture now for over 20 years.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

CrashTestRanch said:


> And this is what's is driving me nuts...
> 
> an animal that is superior in every way except color and name fetches less than an animal that is backed by color and name only thru money and marketing gimmicks ...


Well, that is an opinion and we all have one..................

The folks who run the Polled Hereford association _could_ have done the same thing, but they didn't. The Angus association did exactly what an association of it's type should do. It went out and waged a successful promotional campaign that has benefited it's members greatly. Good job American Angus Association!


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

ramiller5675 said:


> All I know is it is pretty easy for me to get really good registered Black Angus bulls locally for a reasonable price and I am getting calves that look like carbon-copies of their sire. If I wanted to raise another breed of cattle, I am not so sure that it would be as easy to find good bulls for a good price. In other areas of the country, it might be a different story.


The pricing is what has drawn my attention to this "issue" for me.



oneokie said:


> Niche market.


thanks oneokie, that had crossed my mind ...



tinknal said:


> Well, that is an opinion and we all have one..................
> 
> The folks who run the Polled Hereford association _could_ have done the same thing, but they didn't. The Angus association did exactly what an association of it's type should do. It went out and waged a successful promotional campaign that has benefited it's members greatly. Good job American Angus Association!


So this all boils down to opinion polls lol  and AAA did a bang up job convincing the public angus is the product to have ... how did they get them to buy into BLACK?

exactly the comparison I was looking at: Hereford vs Angus.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

CrashTestRanch said:


> T
> 
> So this all boils down to opinion polls lol  and AAA did a bang up job convincing the public angus is the product to have ... how did they get them to buy into BLACK?
> 
> exactly the comparison I was looking at: Hereford vs Angus.


Well, I don't think anyone else thought of trying it. Angus were the first. There is now the same kind of thing going on with Hereford beef. Our local grocery sells "Certified Hereford beef".


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

There were some desireable characteristics of the old style angus. They finished at a young age because they matured at a lighter weight. They also were easy keeping cows for the same reason. Hereford also fell in this category. This advantage has been greatly reduced across the breed due to the push higher weaning weights, which resulted in bigger cows. Bigger cows were produced by cross breading with black chi for angus and simmetal for the herefords. As old times can tell you there were no 1400 lb hereford or angus cows 40 years ago.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Breed standards change like fashions. I remember the Champion beef cattle in the 1950s were thick and short legged. Then, there was a demand for cattle with a larger frame. Now it is Angus or anything that looks like an Angus.

Different associations give a big push for their produce. Milk does a body good and Pork the other white meat are just two examples.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

tinknal said:


> Well, I don't think anyone else thought of trying it. Angus were the first. There is now the same kind of thing going on with Hereford beef. Our local grocery sells "Certified Hereford beef".


Do you "see" the markets shifting? Or will we be seeing the Angus dominate for decades to come? I know, I'm asking for the future of the beef markets, but there's always indicators that may show a trend shift ... just look at the shift in grass-fed vs grain



bruce2288 said:


> There were some desireable characteristics of the old style angus. They finished at a young age because they matured at a lighter weight. They also were easy keeping cows for the same reason. Hereford also fell in this category. This advantage has been greatly reduced across the breed due to the push higher weaning weights, which resulted in bigger cows. Bigger cows were produced by cross breading with black chi for angus and simmetal for the herefords. As old times can tell you there were no 1400 lb hereford or angus cows 40 years ago.


What were the sizes of these two breeds before all the genetic mingling?


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Breed standards change like fashions. I remember the Champion beef cattle in the 1950s were thick and short legged. Then, there was a demand for cattle with a larger frame. Now it is Angus or anything that looks like an Angus.
> 
> Different associations give a big push for their produce. Milk does a body good and Pork the other white meat are just two examples.


and Beef, it's whats for dinner 

I was looking for indicators of trend shifts like grass vs grain fed, there's got to be shifts showing somewhere ...


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

CrashTestRanch said:


> and Beef, it's whats for dinner
> 
> I was looking for indicators of trend shifts like grass vs grain fed, there's got to be shifts showing somewhere ...


Well, then the grass fed folks need to form an association, raise some dough, and get to marketing. Maybe if they formed a big enough lobby within the beef industry they could lobby for some checkoff funds.


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

CrashTestRanch said:


> Seriously, why Angus and Black? What is it about black angus cattle that they can demand a premium at sale?
> 
> Why does the color black demand a premium?
> 
> Why does angus demand a premium?


I see many people saying Angus are popular because of marketing, marketing, marketing. As someone who started using Angus before black was beautiful, it ain't so. it was the American Angus Assn's faith in Angus cattle and the breeder's faith in the AAA.

When we went looking for a bull to use on our first heifers (commercial), we knew we needed a purebred bull. They were a mixed lot of heifers, red, black, tiger striped, limi, Hereford....you name the breed, there was a cross in there somewhere. At that time only the Angus breed had EPDs. We liked the idea of being able to select a calving ease bull using data from sires, grand sires, etc., that make up EPDs. But we had to look pretty hard to find a bull with EPDs. Most Angus breeders in our area were small timers and didn't take time to weigh, measure and report data on their calves. So their bulls didn't have EPDs. We did find a bull. 

A few years later when we sent some calves sired by that Angus bull out of that group of commerical, crossbred cows, through out state feedout, we had a "Gold" pen and a "Silver" pen. The only thing those steers had in common was their sire, a Scotch Cap Angus bull. That made me a believer in Angus cattle. It's not just hype, it's not just marketing. 

For a lot of years, other breed supporters snickered at EPDs. They rolled their eyes when I mentioned EPDs. But it didn't take long for the commercial cattleman to understand the same thing we understood when we went looking for that first bull. And the other breeds started producing EPDs on their cattle. But by then they were way, way behind. 

When the continental cattle took over the cattle industry, the packers couldn't get enough quality beef to fill their orders. So they got the USDA to change the specifications for high quality beef. The Angus Assn believed that consumers would pay for high quality beef, so they started the Certified Angus Beef program. The AAA was in bad financial shape. It was an expensive program and they almost cut it out several times. It took a lot of years before it paid it's way, but today it's by far the most recognizable and largest branded beef program in the world. Today if you look at the USDA certified branded beef programs (see link), you'll see that the majority of them have the word "Angus" in there somewhere. Generally, angus is equated with black. How does an animal get a black calf? Breed them to an Angus bull. Again other breeds jumped on the bandwagon with their branded beef programs. And again they were way, way behind the curve.

Bottom line: Breeders made Angus what it is today. Yes, the AAA is full of smart people. But all the marketing in the world won't work if the product doesn't match up to the hype. Angus cattle are good cattle. They're fertile, they gain, they grade. Good bulls are available at reasonable prices all over the country. The most expensive time in a calf's life is the feedlot. If you take time to look at performance test stations you'll see more Angus bulls being tested than most other breeds combined. The AAA doesn't pay those feed bills, breeders do and they report the data to AAA to go into EPDs. 

Then when several other breeds turned themselves black, the dye was cast. I try to get to other breed bull sales during the year. Red Limis are few and and generally take a hit compared to the black Limis. It's been years since I've seen a spotted Simmental or even a red one. Herefords have stayed true to their breed, but.....

USDA Certified programs: http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams...reas&page=BeefPrograms&resultType=&acct=lsstd


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

tinknal said:


> Well, then the grass fed folks need to form an association, raise some dough, and get to marketing. Maybe if they formed a big enough lobby within the beef industry they could lobby for some checkoff funds.


One problem with grass fed beef is that the kind of grass can affect the taste of the meat. Then there's the little fact that it takes longer to finish an animal on grass. You could be running more momma cows instead of feeding yearling steers.

There are several groups of producers around the counry that have banded together to promote a grass fed beef product. It seems most of them are regional groups. That makes sense, since they'd all be growing the same or similar forages. That should help keep the beef taste consistent, at least. Below are links on grassfed alliances:

http://www.texasgrassfedbeef.com/improving_the_margin.htm

http://www.grassfedlivestockalliance.com/Grassfed_Livestock_Alliance/GLA_Home_Page.html


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

tinknal said:


> Well, then the grass fed folks need to form an association, raise some dough, and get to marketing. Maybe if they formed a big enough lobby within the beef industry they could lobby for some checkoff funds.


I was speaking from the consumer marketing I have notice concerning the shift to grass fed products in the market. Where as it was dominated by grain fed propaganda just a few years back ...

I thought I had read a few splinter type grass fed associations but none large enough YET to have any weight to throw around ... I have some ideas/theories as to WHY they haven't gotten large enough ...


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

FEF said:


> I see many people saying Angus are popular because of marketing, marketing, marketing. As someone who started using Angus before black was beautiful, it ain't so. it was the American Angus Assn's faith in Angus cattle and the breeder's faith in the AAA.
> 
> When we went looking for a bull to use on our first heifers (commercial), we knew we needed a purebred bull. They were a mixed lot of heifers, red, black, tiger striped, limi, Hereford....you name the breed, there was a cross in there somewhere. At that time only the Angus breed had EPDs. We liked the idea of being able to select a calving ease bull using data from sires, grand sires, etc., that make up EPDs. But we had to look pretty hard to find a bull with EPDs. Most Angus breeders in our area were small timers and didn't take time to weigh, measure and report data on their calves. So their bulls didn't have EPDs. We did find a bull.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the details.

I would like to ask: How did you hear about EPD's in the beginning? 

Why do they test more Angus than the other breeds? Why aren't they putting as much effort into the others? Lobbies? Hype? "That's just how we've always done it" ...?


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

I'd still like to know why BLACK? There are black throws in other breeds _without_ angus influence, so why do they demand a premium?


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

CrashTestRanch said:


> Thanks for the details.
> 
> I would like to ask: How did you hear about EPD's in the beginning?
> 
> Why do they test more Angus than the other breeds? Why aren't they putting as much effort into the others? Lobbies? Hype? "That's just how we've always done it" ...?


The first time I heard about EPDs was in _Angus Journal_. The idea of taking generations of data on BW, WW, YW and creating a set of numbers that reflected probability was a no brainer. Plus with a black, polled Angus bull, the calves were either solid black or black baldies and we had no horns to deal with. With any other breed bull (all red, at the time), you'd get red, gray, striped, tan, black, probably horned calves. Not nearly as uniform a group.

I can't speak for all other breeds, but I think some of them are just too wedded to the show ring. Back before EPDs, that was how breeders and AI companies selected their bulls. Henry Gardiner tells a good story about how for years they bought champion bulls at Denver or Louisville or NAILE. They kept very detailed records on every calf born on the place and sometimes those champion bulls would improve their cattle and sometimes not. Because their records were so detailed and covered so many generations, Gardiner's records were a big part of the first Angus EPDs. He'll tell you that once GAR started using EPDs, they were steadily improving their cattle. 

I don't know why more breeds don't test. Taking a 750 lb bull calf to a 1200 lb yearling in 112 days, weighing him on a regular basis, keeping him healthy, is not a cheap thing to do. For some reason Angus breeders seem to be more willing to put their animals out there and see how they perform. Since we've been involved with Angus, the breed has focused on the commercial cattleman. Commercial bull sales are the bread and butter of most producer's operation. The ability to gain in the feedlot is not something that can be ignored, IMO and it's a fairly heritable trait.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

Why does color have such an effect on price? I can see from the processors stand about polled cattle, but the color thing has me stumped.

An what about hereford? They are a uniform group ....

It would seem that each breed is fairly uniform .. so why was angus chosen? Did H.G. have pull somewhere higher in the food chain? I'm fairly certain there were others keeping records of their breeding ... why was his data chosen?


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

CrashTestRanch said:


> I'd still like to know why BLACK? There are black throws in other breeds _without_ angus influence, so why do they demand a premium?



There are a couple of naturally black breeds besides Angus: Galloways and Black Welch come to mind. But neither one of them is widely accepted in the beef industry. The vast majority of those black Limis, Simis, Gelbvieh, Maine, Salers.....all have some Angus influence.

IMO, the driving force behind the premium for Angus (or black cattle in general) is the list of branded beef programs that I linked to earlier. Plus there are dozens of non-certified Angus programs. They sell a "premium Angus beef" brand in my local supermarket. It's not USDA certified, but apparently the requirement to sell under that name is that the animal be 51% black. Then there's all those "angus" burgers in the fast food joints. I've never been able to find out, but I'll bet McDonalds requires the animal their "angus" burger comes from be black. How do you get black calves our of any colored cow? Breed them to an Angus bull. 

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams...reas&page=BeefPrograms&resultType=&acct=lsstd


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

CrashTestRanch said:


> I'd still like to know why BLACK? There are black throws in other breeds _without_ angus influence, so why do they demand a premium?


Certified Angus Beef (CAB) Is marked on the kill line by an inspector, being black hided and of the appropriate frame size, muscling, and finish is all that is required. The extra value of CAB drives the price of the black hided stocker and feeder cattle.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

FEF said:


> . Herefords have stayed true to their breed, but.....
> 
> ]


http://www.google.com/images?q=blac...tle&resnum=5&ved=0CDQQsAQwBA&biw=1280&bih=786


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

CrashTestRanch said:


> Why does color have such an effect on price? I can see from the processors stand about polled cattle, but the color thing has me stumped.
> 
> An what about hereford? They are a uniform group ....
> 
> It would seem that each breed is fairly uniform .. so why was angus chosen? Did H.G. have pull somewhere higher in the food chain? I'm fairly certain there were others keeping records of their breeding ... why was his data chosen?



You're confusing color with quality. Angus are efficient in the feedlot, they marble, they're fertile. The AAA believed consumers would pay more for the quality beef they produced and cattlemen would like those momma cows. If any other breed had chosen to spend the money to collect and sort data, disseminate that data to their breeders, if their breeders had used it in their breeding progams, another breed might setting where Angus is today. But they didn't. A long time Hereford breeder told me several years ago that he tried to get the Hereford Assn to start a Certifiered Hereford Beef program right after Angus started CAB. They didn't want to spend the money. When they did start CHB, they chose a lower quality grade (Select) than CAB.

Gardiner's was not the only data that went into EPDs. There were several large Angus breeders around the US who had good, multi-generational, data on their cattle. Most of them were happy to share it with the Angus Assn and start EPDs. HG is just the only large operation that I've heard talk about how EPDs helped them right from the start.

No, other breeds weren't as uniform. Breed a tiger striped southern cow to a red Limi of 15 years ago and you might get a red one or a striped one, white face or solid, polled or horns. Breed her to an Angus bull and you get either a polled solid black or black baldie animal.


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## copperhead46 (Jan 25, 2008)

I remember when the highest priced cattle coming through the sale ring were "black-baldies" they would bring a premium, every week. Fashion changes, so do peoples tastes. Marketing is a wonderfull thing. I raise Dexters, the red ones bring more than the black ones, no difference, just a color.


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

agmantoo said:


> http://www.google.com/images?q=blac...tle&resnum=5&ved=0CDQQsAQwBA&biw=1280&bih=786


Yeah, but they're not recognized by the American Hereford Association.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

so they don't even have to be angus breed or 100% black on the kill floor to get CAB $$$ for the processors, but we can't get that at the sale barn? ound:

nice ...


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

CrashTestRanch said:


> so they don't even have to be angus breed or 100% black on the kill floor to get CAB $$$ for the processors, but we can't get that at the sale barn? ound:
> 
> nice ...



Regular CAB doesn't require proof of a speck of Angus blood. Never has. When CAB specifications were approved by the USDA, Angus was virtually the only black breed out there. The USDA accepted black as proof of Angus blood. They still do. And we know from source verified programs that Angus cattle qualify for CAB at a higher rate than generic black cattle. The "natural" line of CAB does come from AngusSource calves. A calf has to be sired by a registered Angus bull to get the AngusSource ear tag. 

Processors pay feedlots more for black cattle. Feedlots pay producers more for black cattle. If you read this board, you'll see lots of producers saying they get more for their black calves at sale barns.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3016998


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

CrashTestRanch

Only 51 percent of the hair coat has to be black. That gives you a lot of leeway.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

agmantoo said:


> CrashTestRanch
> 
> Only 51 percent of the hair coat has to be black. That gives you a lot of leeway.


that is good to know... does this also count at the sale barn?


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

CrashTestRanch

If you are selling feeder calves the 51% black hair needs to be on a high potential calf that will grade to meet the rest of the CAB requirements. I have read that only 8% of the animals processed meet all the requirements.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

kinda like kobe reqs, 8% seems low


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

in 1917 the Association barred the registering of red and other colored animals in an effort to promote a solid black breed ... _Red Angus Association of America. "History of Red Angus". redangus.org. Retrieved 2006-10-02_

MARKETING, MARKETING, MARKETING ....


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## scorpian5 (Feb 16, 2004)

Are you really bored or do you like asking the same question over and over? People buy what they like and what sounds better some big fat holstein in a feed lot or a black angus on pasture?


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

scorpian5 said:


> Are you really bored or do you like asking the same question over and over? People buy what they like and what sounds better some big fat holstein in a feed lot or a black angus on pasture?


Same questions? 

Not really, just trying to wrap my head around why a *premium* is paid for a BLACK animal ... you can spin it anyway you want to, we could spin that holstein the way of the angus 

I got a lot more info since my last posting, turns out it was all marketing propaganda that put angus on top ... pure and simple ... and that was gleaned from the histories of the red and black angus associations ... plus marketing campaigns of the food industry who is in bed with them ... great for those carrying angus cattle ... but thanks anyways ...

FYI, that fat holstein will taste just as good as that black angus on my BBQ grill ...

FWIW, we plan on running angus X murray grey ... so not really a bash angus thread, just questions ...


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

tyusclan said:


> Because the Angus Association did a marvelous marketing job.





CrashTestRanch said:


> I got a lot more info since my last posting, turns out it was all marketing propaganda that put angus on top ... pure and simple ... and that was gleaned from the histories of the red and black angus association


Well, Ty told you that in the second post! And Black? Probably because Aberdeen Angus are Black.

The Angus Association worldwide is probably the only cattle association that has ever pushed it's breed wholeheartedly and it's paid off. If you tell people the same thing often enough they will believe it and this is what has happened. People breed them, go out of their way to source Angus meat, restaurants make a point of selling Angus steak, even McDonalds sell Angusburghers, in other words people are being bombarded with it but they're not being bombarded with any other breed. The fact that most of them wouldn't know what breed of meat they were eating is immaterial, the AA has done it's job and done it well. 

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## theporkstork (Dec 31, 2005)

From what I have heard from University tests both in feedlot and in the processing end, Angus have a genetic trait for more intramuscular fat that gives the beef more flavor and palatability. I took a meat processing course at our University's Animal Sciences Meat Lab and saw for myself the difference in the raw product between Angus and Hereford. All of the slaughter animals were fed in the same feedlot for the duration of their growing life and the Angus out scored the Hereford in carcass traits and quality across the board. I wll admit that different bloodlines can have varying degrees of carcass quality. And in my case I saw that the naked eye can see a difference let alone the evidence in difference of eating quality of the prepared meat as we cooked and compared the steaks of the different breeds from several carcasses as part of the course. 
The only part of the marketing program that I have to question is how in all of the retail stores and resturants can there be that many Angus cattle to supply the volume of meat and what is being done with all of the meat from the other colors of beef cattle?
My Grandfather raised Herefords all of his life and I questioned him on why he wouldn't include Angus? His reply was that Herefords can get fat on grass alone (this was back in the '30's through the '60's). He stuck by his opinion and never strayed from it, always pure Herefords on his farm.
As far as eating quality, if you have good genetics and the knowledge of how to feed and finish your beef, it all tastes good! I never had a bad piece of Hereford beef from my Grandpa's feedlot!
theporkstork


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

We have Longhorns, were breeding them pure. They are very hardy and great mothers, have instincts like Deer, ease of calving,small calves. Great meat for athletes that like a lean beef. Then we crossed with Herford. Now we have a Michigan state Angus bull, 3 farms use him, all of our herds have vastly improved. Here, one will always get more for a black animal, and people are unbelievably biased against Horns. Our Bull is very easy to work with, he's gentle, thank goodness his Genetics seem to be stronger than our Longhorns and half crossed Herefords. We'll stay with Angus.


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

7thswan said:


> We have Longhorns, were breeding them pure. They are very hardy and great mothers, have instincts like Deer, ease of calving,small calves. Great meat for athletes that like a lean beef. Then we crossed with Herford. Now we have a Michigan state Angus bull, 3 farms use him, all of our herds have vastly improved. Here, one will always get more for a black animal, and people are unbelievably biased against Horns. Our Bull is very easy to work with, he's gentle, thank goodness his Genetics seem to be stronger than our Longhorns and half crossed Herefords. We'll stay with Angus.



And that's why Angus pretty well dominate the beef industry: they work for a lot of people.


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## farmerpat (Jan 1, 2008)

We have black Angus. We also have a few baldies and have at the present 1 Charlois (sold the rest). Angus beef is a richer tasting beef than the others, and therefore demands a higher price. I personally feel Charlois throw a bigger, sturdier calf for their size when bred to an Angus bull, and we have never had ONE that didn't hit the ground running and was a weak or sickly at birth. The baldies are ok, but they are much higher in bone to meat ratio in our experience, as are Holstein bucket calves from the dairy. You can tell a purebred Angus bull across the pasture just by looking at him - he is big, beefy, has massive shoulders and a certain "look" and shape about him. You can obviously tell him from an Angus cross or your typical "mutt" cull steer. You can also tell a purebread Angus cow just by looking at her vs. a cross. They all might be black in color, but if you've around them for any length of time, you can tell just by looking at them.

I've also found that the red Angus raised around us are VERY hyper and skitzy - they will charge for NO REASON and cannot be trusted not to clear a panel with no provocation, and are almost hysterically possessive of their babies. 90% of our black Angus cows are so mellow that you can go up to them immediately after they give birth and give the calves their shots and tag them and the momma doesn't try to "take" you. I have a couple of baldies that are gonna go on the "big bus" after their next calving in Feb because they are also so unpredictable. Alot of us feel that it is easier and safer for us to have animals that are NOT unpredictable, and will pay more for them because of that.

My cousin raises polled Herefords and they taste fine, but in my personal opinion just do NOT taste as "rich" or delicious as an Angus. We have raised up Holstein bucket calves from the dairy and also Angus crosses to sell for "hamburger" cows and have always made a little money on them, and have eaten a few ourselves. I can tell the difference between the Angus beef and the "regular" beef just by cooking and tasting it. We use the "regular" beef in casseroles, chili, etc., but safe Angus roasts/chops/steaks for company and Sunday dinners.

Also, the difference between GOOD grass-fed beef and non-grass-fed beef is also very noticeable. Yes, what they eat CAN and DOES make a difference. It's no different than the few pigs we raise every year -- ours are fed on milk from our dairy cow, eggs from our hens, and a special ration made up for us and the taste is unbelieveable compared to store-bought pork, and even other home-grown pork where people just feed them pig feed and nothing else. I think the milk and eggs and vegetables we supplement them with makes all the difference in the taste of the finished product.

I guess what it comes down to is that Angus has made a reputation for itself over the years, and I honestly don't think it has anything to do with "marketing" or people being biased for or against a certain color animal. It has to do with who likes what to eat, what they are used to, and what people are willing to buy and consume. Often when people consume everyday so-so quality beef from the store or restaurants, and then taste Angus beef, they are hooked. It's kinda like the difference betwen eating a can of tuna fish vs. a piece of fine Alaskan salmon. It's all in the taste and what you like.

jmho


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## Karin L (Oct 5, 2006)

Farmerpat, I've heard the exact opposite with RA's and BA's. It's all about culling standards one has for the herd; anyone can cull out over-protective mothers and flighty cattle to get the same, mellow-type BA mothers that you mentioned. Most Angus steers we had bought and raised on our were more wild and flighty than the reds were. 

CTR, I don't think this has been mentioned, but the other reason why BA's were chosen over other breeds was they're naturally polled (no dehorning necessary), have good milking ability, mothering ability, mothers being quite protective of their calves, calves that hit the ground were small yet grew like weeds, and fertility. But, you can find these same traits in different breeds like Speckle Park, Galloway, Welsh Blacks, Red Polls, etc. It's the fact that the AAA did their marketing the way they did (though the development of CAB) that made the Angus breed so darn popular, and, with the onset of CAB, enabled other breeds like Simmental, Gelbvieh, Salers and Maine Anjou, to easily follow the black hided market to gain a premium, even though the cattle that received the premium where not pure Angus. 

I find that, with the black fad of raising Angus, that you can get some god-awful bulls along with the good ones, same with cows. There are a lot of Angus bulls out there that shouldn't even be bulls, imho. And you can also get bloodlines and individual cattle that are downright mean and nasty, unlike some other ones that are mellow. I've heard most ranchers say on another cattle site that Angus can be quite "fun" to handle even for veteran ranchers, and don't recommend the breed for those just getting in to raising cattle.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

CrashTestRanch

We had an earlier conversation regarding the type of animal to raise. You are entering this enterprise for the income if I recall correctly. The debate of the breed will never end. Hobby farmers can raise whatever they want but those in the business for profit need to produce what the customer wants. For now, black is were its at! I learned a long time back that if I cannot influence a decision or occurrence to not frustrate myself. I have the same attitude about the weather. Concentrate on how you are going to produce what the customer wants profitably and go forward.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

Ronney, I was just looking for trends in the industry and had to question the current breed. Data from the 60's to the 80's didn't even rank angus in the top 10, under university and scientific studies....then BOOM, angus was the "perfect" animal and all others were inferior... I question EVERYTHING, I'm new to cattle, suit, penny-loafers, still reeking of the cubicle new ...

yes, as you already know, this is for profit only agmantoo, which is why I have so many questions to the validity of data, wanted to weed out "opinion". I still have not wavered from the angus/murray grey X ... I do believe they will work for our area ...


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## mountainlaurel (Mar 5, 2010)

Ok, why do people pay more for brown eggs than white? Mindset. They believe they are paying for better quality even if the chickens were raised together and fed the same thing. I see it every week at the farmers markets.

It's mindset. Market trends will change in the future as they have in the past but I don't see this trend changing in the near future. I raise black simmental for this reason, they bring just as much as the black angus and they give me additional loin typically.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

tyusclan said:


> Because the Angus Association did a marvelous marketing job.


The first response is still the most accurate one.

Friend of mine is a rancher's kid, currently living in Indianapolis. She said she has several friends who don't know beans about cattle (or even beef), but they all insist they will ONLY eat Angus beef because "it's the best."
Just like laurel just pointed out, it's mindset, pure and simple.

Shoot, even _McDonald's_ currently has "Angus beef" on their menu!

That is due to _years_ of aggressive marketing on the part of the Angus Association. They've served their members well! (And even better, they've served we NON-members pretty well, too. lol)



> that is good to know... does this also count at the sale barn?


No.
If you're selling at the salebarn, you want uniformity in the ring because that's what feedlots are looking for. That means you want them all of one color, preferably black.


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## andiplus8 (Nov 6, 2009)

I'm glad you asked these questions because I was curious about it myself. I don't understand the way people think sometimes, but in order to make money we have to go with the flow. My husband and I have decided to raise Galloway cattle. We are going with the blacks because black is the color that sells. To us the Galloway are hardier and taste better. But they will sell better if they are black. Go figure! 
Andi in OK


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

Andi, I ask a lot of questions 

We aren't gonna shoot ourselves in the foot over cattle choice and money. If black and angus is where the money is at then that is where I'll put our cash. It just seems silly and opinionated to me. But I want the cash $$$


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

andiplus8
Have you verified how the Galloway sell at the place where you will be marketing? They do not do that good at the sale barn I use. Some folks consider them pasture ornaments.


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## FARMER BOY (Dec 6, 2007)

Does Red Angus command the same premium as black?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

There are some Belted Galloway crosses bred to Angus near here, for sale at a discount. Not selling.


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

FARMER BOY said:


> Does Red Angus command the same premium as black?


In short, no.


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

For what it's worth, I've wondered "why black" many times. However, in the past 20 or so years they've commanded the local market here and elsewhere as well. 

It always amazes me to go out to the lease pasture and see my colored cattle grazing on a hot, muggy afternoon and see my black cows belly deep in the pond trying to survive the heat. I'm not sure how they can compete with ADG of other cattle when they don't tolerate the heat as well. (naturally because of the black hair)

I agree with Agman as stated earlier. If you're in the business to make money, you need to raise what the consumer wants. 

Unless you're willing to spend millions marketing and researching stats to make them viable, stick with black. 

There's no profit in niche markets for long.................as the emu, llama, and shetland pony raisers found out over a decade ago!


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## andiplus8 (Nov 6, 2009)

agmantoo said:


> andiplus8
> Have you verified how the Galloway sell at the place where you will be marketing? They do not do that good at the sale barn I use. Some folks consider them pasture ornaments.


We've been researching niche marketing rather than sale barn marketing. I would rather have 4 good cows and sell to a few people that appreciate a good, but pricey meat. Our cows will be pasture fed only so we will have a small herd and either do direct customer marketing out of our farm or market to a restaurant or two. We are a good 2 to 3 yrs out from buying our first cow even. I am studying market trends, niche marketing, pastures and grasses, breeds, etc. We chose Galloway because of their characteristics. We chose black because people think a cow has to be black to taste good. lol.
The most important thing before we ever buy is learning about the grasses. We want to get moved in, take the first year to fence and cross fence, take the second yr to make sure we have good grasses, legumes, etc. Then the 3rd yr to buy our first cow/calf pair. (this is sectioned off in yrs so we don't break ourselves before we even get the cows!)
Slow and steady wins the race. Maybe by then the general cow buying public will have recognized the good things about the Galloways.  
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread....


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

andiplus8 said:


> We've been researching niche marketing rather than sale barn marketing. I would rather have 4 good cows and sell to a few people that appreciate a good, but pricey meat. Our cows will be pasture fed only so we will have a small herd and either do direct customer marketing out of our farm or market to a restaurant or two. We are a good 2 to 3 yrs out from buying our first cow even. I am studying market trends, niche marketing, pastures and grasses, breeds, etc. We chose Galloway because of their characteristics. We chose black because people think a cow has to be black to taste good. lol.
> The most important thing before we ever buy is learning about the grasses. We want to get moved in, take the first year to fence and cross fence, take the second yr to make sure we have good grasses, legumes, etc. Then the 3rd yr to buy our first cow/calf pair. (this is sectioned off in yrs so we don't break ourselves before we even get the cows!)
> Slow and steady wins the race. Maybe by then the general cow buying public will have recognized the good things about the Galloways.
> Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread....


Not hijacked ...

We are doing the same exact things as you are. Bought property, working to get it cleaned up to run cattle. Same timeline as well. Clean-up and fencing hopefully done by next summer. Getting water, forage etc in by fall/spring the next. Then cattle, WOOOHOOO ...

you may want to read the Rotational Grazing sticky at the top of this forum, if you haven't already, GREAT info ... lots of great contributors too ...


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## andiplus8 (Nov 6, 2009)

haypoint said:


> There are some Belted Galloway crosses bred to Angus near here, for sale at a discount. Not selling.


We thought the Belties were cute, but cute doesn't sell here.  I really LOVE the white Galloways. They are my favorites. They don't sell as well either. So we have to stick with Black. 
Andi in OK


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## andiplus8 (Nov 6, 2009)

CrashTestRanch said:


> Not hijacked ...
> 
> We are doing the same exact things as you are. Bought property, working to get it cleaned up to run cattle. Same timeline as well. Clean-up and fencing hopefully done by next summer. Getting water, forage etc in by fall/spring the next. Then cattle, WOOOHOOO ...
> 
> you may want to read the Rotational Grazing sticky at the top of this forum, if you haven't already, GREAT info ... lots of great contributors too ...


Oh great! Thank you! I will do that. I have so much to read right now I feel like I am swimming in words. lol


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## Tad (Apr 2, 2003)

Black angus raisers deserve a premium, won't deal with those squirrely things any more.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

Tad said:


> Black angus raisers deserve a premium, won't deal with those squirrely things any more.


Are the angus anymore squirrely than other breeds?


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

CrashTestRanch said:


> Are the angus anymore squirrely than other breeds?


No, but I have noticed that Angus bashers seem to be pretty squirrely.

The Angus breed has an EPD for disposition. The higher the number, the better the disposition. Are there nutcases? Yep. But you'll find those in all breeds. Cull the nutcases and go on with your breeding program.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

FEF said:


> No, but I have noticed that Angus bashers seem to be pretty squirrely.
> 
> The Angus breed has an EPD for disposition. The higher the number, the better the disposition. Are there nutcases? Yep. But you'll find those in all breeds. Cull the nutcases and go on with your breeding program.


Thanks for the info FEF.

Is there a layman's guide to reading those EPD stats? I need something that explains those like you would to a child, I'm kinda slow ....


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

CrashTestRanch said:


> Thanks for the info FEF.
> 
> Is there a layman's guide to reading those EPD stats? I need something that explains those like you would to a child, I'm kinda slow ....



Sure. Here's a link to Angus EPDs. How to use EPDs is pretty similar across breeds, but the numbers mean different things in different breeds. For example, you wouldn't expect a calf sired by a Charolais with a BW EPD of 0 to weigh the same as a calf sired by an Angus bull with a BW EPD of 0. But you would use the Angus and Char BW EPD the same way. There's a crossreference table to compare EPDs of various breeds, too. I'll add that link.

http://www.angus.org/Nce/Definitions.aspx

http://www.ars.usda.gov/sp2UserFiles/Place/54380000/GPE/AB_EPD2009News.pdf


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

For anyone interested in cattle breeding in general and grass-based genetics in particular, this is a guy you need to know:

http://www.pharocattle.com/

Sign up for his newsletter and his weekly updates. One of the most forward thinking cattlemen in the country today.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

CrashTestRanch said:


> Are the angus anymore squirrely than other breeds?


Yep.
Twenty years ago...


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

thanks for the links FEF & tyusclan


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

If there is an issue with pharocattle I doubt that you will like Kit Pharo's manner of resolving problems. At one time I was "high on him" and often gave recommendations. I do not think you have seen any posts from me supporting him within recent times. IMO he is not the man he presents himself to be. PS I have met him and he does a good job of promoting. Had he resolved a problem I am aware of, I would have bought from him. He is not the ethical person that he makes out himself to be.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

francismilker said:


> For what it's worth, I've wondered "why black" many times. However, in the past 20 or so years they've commanded the local market here and elsewhere as well.
> 
> It always amazes me to go out to the lease pasture and see my colored cattle grazing on a hot, muggy afternoon and see my black cows belly deep in the pond trying to survive the heat. I'm not sure how they can compete with ADG of other cattle when they don't tolerate the heat as well. (naturally because of the black hair)


This is one reason I got rid of my black cow recently. Just don't like seeing black cows in the heat, and we aren't as hot as elsewhere. I'm always amazed to see pictures of black cattle in the south with the heat and humidity. Apparently this summer, thousands of cattle died in feedlots from the heat. One factor I've seen discussed is the black hair. How many of us wear black outside in summer?

Feedlots are hard enough on cattle - why add more stress? I know, economics over animal welfare.

You'd think someone could market a lighter color or breed from the animal welfare perspective. These British Whites are my latest interest in coloring - white to reflect heat, but exposed skin black to avoid sunburn and cancer.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

DJ in WA, is that photoshopped?


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

agmantoo said:


> If there is an issue with pharocattle I doubt that you will like Kit Pharo's manner of resolving problems. At one time I was "high on him" and often gave recommendations. I do not think you have seen any posts from me supporting him within recent times. IMO he is not the man he presents himself to be. PS I have met him and he does a go job of promoting. Had he resolved a problem I am aware of I would have bought from him. He is not the ethical person that he makes out himself to be.


Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of that.


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## ramiller5675 (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm not so sure that the heat and humidity is any worse for black-hided cattle. If the pasture is managed correctly, cattle should be in the shade during the heat of the day, so seeing black cattle in ponds or in the shade during the middle of the day instead of grazing simply means that they finished grazing in the morning and are in the shade ruminating. When it starts to cool down in the afternoon, they will go back out and grazing again. 

Plus, how do you explain the black hides of Cape buffalo in Africa? Wouldn't they have 
lighter colored hides if a black hide caused them to overheat?


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

Agmatoo. You opened the can of worms but didn't lets us see inside. Would expand on that?


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

I too am ready to hear your reasoning on Pharoah cattle Agman.....


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

The post above was my 7,842 one on this site. You folks should have an opinion of me by now. Just take the contents of that post and what you know about me and come to your own conclusion.


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## anvoj (Feb 1, 2010)

Nobody really answered the "why black?" question, other than to say "because angus are black." Just spitballing here, but the popularity of angus came up along with the greater consolidation in the beef industry in the 80s, right? A consolidated, industrial buyer wants a uniform product to eliminate perceived variables along the production line, so it makes sense that a solid animal would be desirable. Black is black- brown or red could have a lot of different shades. White is white too, but I would think that black also shows the least manure and dirt at a glance, and so looks cleaner. Maybe black is also easier to judge muscling at a distance? Any of that ring true?

As I understand, when cattle didn't travel so far from the home pasture, breeds were developed to suit very specific environments. The comment about the heat seems to point out that the angus has been developed to suit a very different "natural" habitat- the feed lot.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Nope. 
You're right in that it's simply because Angus are black. 
And, for whatever reason, people most associate Angus with beef because of the extremely aggressive, and obviously successful, marketing of the Angus association. 

People _want_ Angus. 
For the same reason my kids _want_ a Happy Meal, actually. lol


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

agmantoo said:


> If there is an issue with pharocattle I doubt that you will like Kit Pharo's manner of resolving problems. At one time I was "high on him" and often gave recommendations. I do not think you have seen any posts from me supporting him within recent times. IMO he is not the man he presents himself to be. PS I have met him and he does a good job of promoting. Had he resolved a problem I am aware of, I would have bought from him. He is not the ethical person that he makes out himself to be.


Hmmm. Pretty interesting comment. I guess with Kit Pharo's program, you either drink the kool aid or not. But you can't diss his marketing abilities. Last time I watched his sale on RFD TV, his black bulls didn't have Angus EPDs. So I guess he's not selling Angus anymore, just black bulls? Or did I miss something? I did wonder though how anyone paying $7-10,000 for a bull could call themselves "low input" cattlemen?

I've never had any experience with him or his program. With any program, it's buyer beware. Take time to research before you start writing checks or changing the way you manage your cattle.


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

anvoj said:


> Nobody really answered the "why black?" question, other than to say "because angus are black." Just spitballing here, but the popularity of angus came up along with the greater consolidation in the beef industry in the 80s, right? A consolidated, industrial buyer wants a uniform product to eliminate perceived variables along the production line, so it makes sense that a solid animal would be desirable. Black is black- brown or red could have a lot of different shades. White is white too, but I would think that black also shows the least manure and dirt at a glance, and so looks cleaner. Maybe black is also easier to judge muscling at a distance? Any of that ring true?


Actually, no. When the Continental breeds hit the US, they about destroyed the Angus, Hereford and Shorthorn breeds. Packers loved those big cattle. They got more pounds and less fat from one animal than from the smaller, fatter Angus, Herefords and Shorthorns. But they didn't produce high quality (marbled) beef. That's when the American Angus Assn started CAB. They believed that consumers would be willing to pay a premium for high quality beef. The big packers weren't the least bit interested in the CAB program. They were doing fine selling commodity beef. They even got the USDA to lower grading standards. But consumers weren't fooled. They knew the "higher" quality beef was not the same as they bought before and beef demand started dropping. It took a lot of years, but AAA was was proven right. And in those years, we identified the big Angus cattle and used them to increase frame score to compete with Continentals. Today if you want big Angus, you can get them. If you want the smaller ones, you can get them, too. The Angus Mature Height EPD is very helpful in that area.

The packers didn't care what color the animal was until the demand for "angus" took off. With so many of the branded beef programs requiring the meat be from a black animal, they have to pay attention. 

No, muscling is easier to see in light colored cattle.



> As I understand, when cattle didn't travel so far from the home pasture, breeds were developed to suit very specific environments. The comment about the heat seems to point out that the angus has been developed to suit a very different "natural" habitat- the feed lot.


Angus cattle are doing well all across the US. Yes, they stand in the water. I would, too, if I was out in the heat. But in my area you'll also see red, spotted, tigerstriped, grey cows standing in the water. We used to have an Angus cow that took a bath every morning. Whether the temp was 100 or 60, when her calf was nursed, she headed for the pond. Her daughter did the same thing. If they don't graze enough to maintain condition and breed back, they need to be culled.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams...reas&page=BeefPrograms&resultType=&acct=lsstd


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Best beef I have ever eaten was from Scottish Highland cattle. I consider myself a vegetarian, but I would eat Scotch Highland any day!!


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## anvoj (Feb 1, 2010)

Fair enough FEF, that was an interesting clarification.
Chamoisee, that's music to my ears, since I'm in Highlanders. But if I was in a position to expand my operation beyond my ability to direct market I would go with Angus. Like Agman says, there's no sense spitting into the wind.


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

FEF said:


> I did wonder though how anyone paying $7-10,000 for a bull could call themselves "low input" cattlemen?


Breeding stock in a cattle herd is a capital investment in the business that can be depreciated just like any other. A capital expenditure is not the same as an "input" in the business.

Inputs are feed, medication, fuel, etc. If you make a $10,000 investment that lowers the amount you have to "put in" each season to raise your calves, that investment has helped you to be more profitable in your herd. Every dollar not spent to raise a calf is a dollar added to the bottom line.


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## Karin L (Oct 5, 2006)

FEF said:


> And in those years, we identified the big Angus cattle and used them to increase frame score to compete with Continentals. Today if you want big Angus, you can get them. If you want the smaller ones, you can get them, too.


If that's the case, then why do we see, in the AAA website, that cattle can be registered as 15/16's or 7/8's Angus instead of having cattle registered as 100% Angus? IMHO, the reason Angus increased in frame score was because they incorporated some continental genes into the breed, bred the resulting F1's up to the point where their grand-"children" were straightbred Angus and could be registered as, well, Angus cattle. Angus were small before this whole AAA and CAB schebang got off the ground, and it's obvious that the AAA seen that in order to compete with the Continentals, they had to do something to make the Angus breed increase in frame size. Like I mentioned before, the only way they were going to do that was put Continental breeding into the Angus breed, even if it's just a smidgen of it.

Today, there are Angus cattle, yes, but a lot of them are not 100% Angus. Somewhere down in each and every bloodline there is a little bit of other breed thrown in. As has been beaten to the ground and repeated over and over again in this thread, BLACK cattle are getting premiums because of the simple fact that they are BLACK, not because they are PURE Angus.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Karin L said:


> As has been beaten to the ground and repeated over and over again in this thread, BLACK cattle are getting premiums because of the simple fact that they are BLACK, not because they are PURE Angus.


That's right. The same as red Angus don't get the premium that black Angus do. black Solare (which I KNOW I'm spelling wrong! lol), black Limousin, etc. 
All of them are riding on the same coat tails. And those are the coat tails of the Angus Association. In buyers' minds, black=beef, the same as black&white=milk.


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

Karin L said:


> If that's the case, then why do we see, in the AAA website, that cattle can be registered as 15/16's or 7/8's Angus instead of having cattle registered as 100% Angus? IMHO, the reason Angus increased in frame score was because they incorporated some continental genes into the breed, bred the resulting F1's up to the point where their grand-"children" were straightbred Angus and could be registered as, well, Angus cattle. Angus were small before this whole AAA and CAB schebang got off the ground, and it's obvious that the AAA seen that in order to compete with the Continentals, they had to do something to make the Angus breed increase in frame size. Like I mentioned before, the only way they were going to do that was put Continental breeding into the Angus breed, even if it's just a smidgen of it.
> 
> Today, there are Angus cattle, yes, but a lot of them are not 100% Angus. Somewhere down in each and every bloodline there is a little bit of other breed thrown in. As has been beaten to the ground and repeated over and over again in this thread, BLACK cattle are getting premiums because of the simple fact that they are BLACK, not because they are PURE Angus.


There is nothing on the AAA website saying percentage cattle can be registered as Angus. You are simply wrong in making that claim. To register an Angus, both parents must be registered Angus, their parents had to be registered, etc. In theory every Angus registered with the American Angus Association can be traced back through the herd book to either Scotland or some of the thousands of Angus that have been imported into this country. 

No, there doesn't HAVE to be another breed thrown in. Read your genetics. Frame size is one of the most heritable traits. If you're interested in making your cattle bigger, just breed the biggest bull to the biggest cow and the heifer from that breeding to another big bull. It doesn't take many generations to increase frame score. Of course, you may be harming other important traits as you focus on frame (or any one trait), but it was not necessary for Angus or Herefords to incorporate continentals into their bloodlines. As far as I know the American Hereford and the American Angus Associations are the only two major breed associations to REQUIRE an animal be 100% pure before registration. But they do both require it. If there are others, I'd be happy to learn of it. 

Sure, black cattle often get a premium over other colors. But known Angus genetics regularly outsell generic "black" cattle. More and more people are enrolling their calves into the AngusSource program which requires they be sired by a registered Angus bull. Those animals sell for premiums, usually through special sales or off the farm. 

http://www.angus.org/AngusSource/angussource.aspx


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

I believe red angus can be registered if the are percentage. Maybe Karin L has that confused with the blacks.


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## anvoj (Feb 1, 2010)

Since you asked, highlanders also have to be 100% to be registered.


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## Karin L (Oct 5, 2006)

agmantoo said:


> I believe red angus can be registered if the are percentage. Maybe Karin L has that confused with the blacks.


No. But speaking of which, here in Canada, Angus covers both Reds and Blacks.


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

Karin L said:


> No. But speaking of which, here in Canada, Angus covers both Reds and Blacks.


But you didn't say the Canadian Angus site had information showing % cattle were registerable. You said


> If that's the case, then why do we see, in the AAA website, that cattle can be registered as 15/16's or 7/8's Angus instead of having cattle registered as 100% Angus?....


I simply pointed out that you are wrong; there's no such information on the AAA website. Why? Because the AAA doesn't register % cattle....yet. Because so many other breeds are making money off Angus genetics, there is talk of starting another registry to include MainTainers, Balancers, LimFlex, etc. They won't be registered as "Angus" though.

http://www.angus.org/


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## Karin L (Oct 5, 2006)

FEF, I see what you're saying (from what I read on here:http://www.angus.org/pub/brg_part2.pdf ). But I thought I read somewhere about breeders getting away with registering Angus cattle that were not pure Angus, but for the life of me I cannot remember. 

But what about those other calves that are sired by Black Simmentals, Black Maine Anjous, Black Limousins, Black Gelbviehs, etc? Obviously these continentals have Angus genes in them (not other black breeds like Kerry, Galloway, etc.), and I'm sure that calves, as a result of having a black hide over them, even if they're not in the Angus Source program, would still ring the bell at the sale barn because they are BLACK. But that's what I meant when I said about Black cattle getting premiums because they were simply BLACK, not because they are PURE Angus. Angus Source or no, there's a heck of a lot of black cattle out there.


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## Karin L (Oct 5, 2006)

FEF said:


> But you didn't say the Canadian Angus site had information showing % cattle were registerable. You said
> 
> I simply pointed out that you are wrong; there's no such information on the AAA website. Why? Because the AAA doesn't register % cattle....yet. Because so many other breeds are making money off Angus genetics, there is talk of starting another registry to include MainTainers, Balancers, LimFlex, etc. They won't be registered as "Angus" though.
> 
> http://www.angus.org/


You posted a little quick on me here lol. I know I didn't say about Canadian Angus, we're talking about AMERICAN Angus here, not Canadian. And I know that there's no such thing, I just looked at the PDF file myself, and I admitted my mistake. But, read my previous post to see what I'm trying to get across. 

The Canadian Angus Association is obviously a little different than the American, which means that Red Angus and Black Angus are deemed as one and the same. Black Angus bulls that are heterozygous Red are able to be registered as well. I have to look more on the CAA for registration details.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

i love this thread ... ya'll got a head full of knowledge, thanks for sharing ...


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## Karin L (Oct 5, 2006)

Like the AAA, the CAA requires both sire and dam to be registered as purebreds. 

http://www.cdnangus.ca/registry/registry help/tipsfornewbreeders.pdf


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

Karin L said:


> FEF, I see what you're saying (from what I read on here:http://www.angus.org/pub/brg_part2.pdf ). But I thought I read somewhere about breeders getting away with registering Angus cattle that were not pure Angus, but for the life of me I cannot remember.
> 
> But what about those other calves that are sired by Black Simmentals, Black Maine Anjous, Black Limousins, Black Gelbviehs, etc? Obviously these continentals have Angus genes in them (not other black breeds like Kerry, Galloway, etc.), and I'm sure that calves, as a result of having a black hide over them, even if they're not in the Angus Source program, would still ring the bell at the sale barn because they are BLACK. But that's what I meant when I said about Black cattle getting premiums because they were simply BLACK, not because they are PURE Angus. Angus Source or no, there's a heck of a lot of black cattle out there.


There are always "stories" about how different breeds got different traits. Just because you read it doesn't make it true. The American Angus Association has always used the most current science to maintain the integrity of the breed. Obviously science/technology is better now than it was 100 years ago. A few years ago there was a story circulating on the internet that black Salers didn't have Angus in them. That back in the old country when the first son got married, dad gave him and his bride a black Saler heifer for a wedding present. And that's why there were a few black Salers. 

There *are* lots of black cattle out there. And that makes me happy. But when you consider the demand here in the US, it's not a surprise. Here's the link again to the USDA certified branded beef programs. And that list doesn't even include the fast food "angus" burgers which probably requires the meat come from a black animal. 


http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams...reas&page=BeefPrograms&resultType=&acct=lsstd


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

just thinking here ...

how much would it cost to get a few Angus head straight from Scotland .... hmmmm


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## Karin L (Oct 5, 2006)

That's interesting. I know that, in today's world, a DNA test has to be done to prove the parentage of a calf that is being registered to a breeder's association. It's mandatory for the CAA, and though I didn't look to see on the AAA, but I'm sure it's on there too. And DNA testing has only been around for the last, what, 50 years? A lot of things could've and probably did (or didn't) happen between the time when DNA testing was founded, like mess ups in herd books, illegal registrations, etc. But like you say, those could be all tall tales, as there's always tall tales being told in the cattle industry today.

But I find it kinda funny how, even though we're neighbors, the CAB initiative didn't take off in Canada like it did in the States. Here we have plenty of Black Angus cattle, not to mention other breeds chasing the black fad like in the states, but the "Angus-craze" just isn't happening as much up here. I see more red, yellow, orange, white, roan, and a few grey cattle hit the markets and get a little better price than the blacks. And even here, weight and health and traceability (thanks to the Canadian government's initiatives to make record keeping mandatory through the introduction of the CCIA (Canadian Cattle Identification Agency)) are a sight more important than hide colour. I guess the Canadian Cattlemen's Association seen through the CAB curtain of what CAB was REALLY about, and knowing that about 10% of Canadians were farm folk, that it wasn't really worth it to try to do the same thing. 

I've looked at the sale fliers and catalogs of breeders selling Angus cattle, and I'll tell you one, thing, I can see why the CAB initiative won't take off here in Canada: those Angus sires are not near as good a quality as what the American Angus breeders have made them. Here we got better quality Simmentals, Shorthorns, Herefords and Gelbvieh cattle than those seedy-looking Canadian Angus, lol. Plus, we import a lot of our cattle down south; most of the Canadian beef you're going to get is not from the grocery stores, but from home-raised beef or farmer's markets. 

Anyway, enough of my rambling.


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## Karin L (Oct 5, 2006)

CrashTestRanch said:


> just thinking here ...
> 
> how much would it cost to get a few Angus head straight from Scotland .... hmmmm


I think it would be pretty expensive, what with shipping costs, not to mention the cost of paying for a registered animal and converting the Euro to US dollars, especially if you are bringing pure Scottish stock to America. Sex of the animal would differ in price too, perhaps.

I'd hate to know how much that would cost!


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

Karin L said:


> That's interesting. I know that, in today's world, a DNA test has to be done to prove the parentage of a calf that is being registered to a breeder's association. It's mandatory for the CAA, and though I didn't look to see on the AAA, but I'm sure it's on there too. And DNA testing has only been around for the last, what, 50 years? A lot of things could've and probably did (or didn't) happen between the time when DNA testing was founded, like mess ups in herd books, illegal registrations, etc. But like you say, those could be all tall tales, as there's always tall tales being told in the cattle industry today.


No, DNA testing is not required to register an animal with the American Angus Association. If a bull is going to be used via AI, he must be DNA tested. Or if a female is to be flushed, she must be DNA tested. Otherwise, there's no requirement for DNA testing. 



> But I find it kinda funny how, even though we're neighbors, the CAB initiative didn't take off in Canada like it did in the States. Here we have plenty of Black Angus cattle, not to mention other breeds chasing the black fad like in the states, but the "Angus-craze" just isn't happening as much up here. I see more red, yellow, orange, white, roan, and a few grey cattle hit the markets and get a little better price than the blacks. And even here, weight and health and traceability (thanks to the Canadian government's initiatives to make record keeping mandatory through the introduction of the CCIA (Canadian Cattle Identification Agency)) are a sight more important than hide colour. I guess the Canadian Cattlemen's Association seen through the CAB curtain of what CAB was REALLY about, and knowing that about 10% of Canadians were farm folk, that it wasn't really worth it to try to do the same thing.


Ah, yes that Canadian Cattlemen's Assn is a smart bunch of guys. But what do they have to do with CAB. CAB doesn't belong to any cattlemen's group. It belongs to the American Angus Assn. And there is a program called the Canadian Angus Beef Program (CABP). I don't have a clue about how successful it's been, but then neither obviously do you???

http://mypage.direct.ca/e/emrich/angus.htm



> I've looked at the sale fliers and catalogs of breeders selling Angus cattle, and I'll tell you one, thing, I can see why the CAB initiative won't take off here in Canada: those Angus sires are not near as good a quality as what the American Angus breeders have made them. Here we got better quality Simmentals, Shorthorns, Herefords and Gelbvieh cattle than those seedy-looking Canadian Angus, lol. Plus, we import a lot of our cattle down south; most of the Canadian beef you're going to get is not from the grocery stores, but from home-raised beef or farmer's markets.
> 
> Anyway, enough of my rambling.


To each his own.


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

CrashTestRanch said:


> just thinking here ...
> 
> how much would it cost to get a few Angus head straight from Scotland .... hmmmm



Probably a lot. But you can breed AI to Scottish Angus bulls. Several have been imported over the last few years.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

FEF said:


> Probably a lot. But you can breed AI to Scottish Angus bulls. Several have been imported over the last few years.


hadn't thought of the imported AI. Wondering what red-tape, legal channels, hoops we would have to go thru to get it shipped direct ...

http://www.aberdeen-angus.co.uk/


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

CrashTestRanch said:


> hadn't thought of the imported AI. Wondering what red-tape, legal channels, hoops we would have to go thru to get it shipped direct ...
> 
> http://www.aberdeen-angus.co.uk/


Not many. GENEX has it available here in the US. Come up with $40 and you can order from them.

http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php?action=BYBREED&Breed=Angus&lang=EN


Dunlouise Jipsey Earl E161 - AAA #15726438
Dunlouise Cup Bearer H283 - AAA #16283322
Dunlouise Cortachy Boy D137 - AAA #14898814
Dunlouise Commander Bond F1276 - AAA #15726453


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## Karin L (Oct 5, 2006)

FEF said:


> Ah, yes that Canadian Cattlemen's Assn is a smart bunch of guys. But what do they have to do with CAB. CAB doesn't belong to any cattlemen's group. It belongs to the American Angus Assn. And there is a program called the Canadian Angus Beef Program (CABP). I don't have a clue about how successful it's been, but then neither obviously do you???
> 
> http://mypage.direct.ca/e/emrich/angus.htm


LOL that is the first time I've ever heard of an Alberta/Canadian initiative (AAA also stands for Alberta Angus Association, BTW) to market Angus beef. It must be a relatively new one that's popped up because for sure I've never heard of CABP before. And from the looks of the page, they're a small group, puny in comparison to ACAB (American Certified Angus Beef). 

Naturally the CCA's got nothing to do with the American based CAB, like you said and which I realize. But of course they're less concerned with marketing Angus beef than they are with marketing Canadian Beef all across the globe, just like the NCBA and R-CALF are concerned with marketing _their_ country's beef products.

With that said, it's no wonder the Angus initiative never got off the ground here in Canuckleville. We've got just as many reds (and some darned sight better Shorthorns than what you folks down there have) and browns as you do blacks. You can kinda see a small affect Angus has had on Canada by how many Angus bulls are being sold via Classifieds, versus the second-most-popular breed, Herefords and others like Simmental, Charolais and Limousin. 

One thing about those blacks though, I must say, they sure slick off nice in the summer. :grin:


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

Karin L said:


> LOL that is the first time I've ever heard of an Alberta/Canadian initiative (AAA also stands for Alberta Angus Association, BTW) to market Angus beef. It must be a relatively new one that's popped up because for sure I've never heard of CABP before. And from the looks of the page, they're a small group, puny in comparison to ACAB (American Certified Angus Beef).
> 
> Naturally the CCA's got nothing to do with the American based CAB, like you said and which I realize. But of course they're less concerned with marketing Angus beef than they are with marketing Canadian Beef all across the globe, just like the NCBA and R-CALF are concerned with marketing _their_ country's beef products.
> 
> ...


ROTFL! As I said: Angus bashers tend to be a bit squirrely. In your case, you obviously have let your bias overload you brain. Angus is likely the most influencial breed in Canada, since more than half the registered cattle in Canada are Angus.

I spent a few minutes on the CAA home page. They have an interesting feature called "Did You Know". It rolls over and tells me that: (1). over half of the registered cattle in Canada are Angus. I'd say your "Angus initiative" is alive and well in Canada. (2). 60% of those are black; 40% red. I expect that % will grow more and more to the blacks. (3). *9 of the 17 branded beef programs in Canada are Angus*. (4). The CAA expects to register 60,000 Angus this year. How many will Shorthorns, Simmental, etc, register (link, please). (5). There are 157 special sales for Angus tagged feeder calves. How many for Shorthorns and Simmentals?

http://www.cdnangus.ca/main_page.htm


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## Karin L (Oct 5, 2006)

Ahh, I didn't see that on there! As for that, I also forgot to mention different areas of the country have different environments suitable for different breeds of cattle. In the Prairies part of Alberta, this is where you'd find most of you're Angus folks, there abouts around Calgary, Medicine Hat, and Red Deer, not to mention those parts in Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Where I live, which is north of those area, it seems the reds are a sight more popular than the blacks; Red Angus, Hereford, Simmental, Gelbvieh, Limousin, Charolais and the like. And it's all due to the environment and the forage quantity/quality up here versus down in the more arid regions, making it more suitable for raising continentals than British breeds. However, it also has to do with influence from others and personal preferences. Black Angus isn't popular up here because only maybe 30% or 40% of the cattlemen up here raise them. The rest is comprised of reds. But I'm not saying we're completely devoid of Black Angus, it's just a matter of popularity in this part of the province.

Now I digress from what I said from the stats you posted on here about Black Angus here in Canada; the proof is in the pudding, obviously. Yes, obviously the Canadian Angus initiative has gone off the ground, but it's not as popular as down in the states. Canadians are more concerned if the beef they eat is _Canadian_, not Angus, unlike most consumers are down in the USA. Despite the fact that a little over half of branded beef programs in Canada are Angus, I don't see, on the market, Angus beef being marketed and promoted in Canada like I do in the states. Unless you can give me a link to disprove that statement as well.

LOL I think the word "squirrely" is a bit of an over-statement. From the Canadian Oxford Dictionary:

*squir-re-ly* _adjective_ *1* restless, fidgety, anxious. *2* eccentric, crazy.

That doesn't sound like me! 

I think it's the Angus guys that get a little squirrely because they're all too eager to jump in any time someone bashes Angus for something or other and put up their defenses.  And no, I haven't let my bias "overload" my brain. I just don't care for Angus cattle, no matter what breeders like you try to tell me or what the markets are or any of that stuff. I'm not going to get suckered into this "Angus Initiative" thing; I'd rather stick with the less popular breeds like Hereford, Shorthorn or Speckle Park. All the Angus cattle I worked around were squirrely, never one was good enough to be docile enough for me to get less than a few feet near. As for the other breeds (except for limi's, chars, and some simmi's), no problemo. Any animal that was crossed with Angus was more well-behaved than their purebred counterparts. And those are my observations and experiences. So don't tell me that my bias is overloading my brain. I've got every reason to be as biased as I do, and that's that.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

Karin L, your statements about "squirrely" cattle reminded me of the herdsmen in Africa and the middle east .... I wonder how they have faired all these millennia with their herds ..


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## Karin L (Oct 5, 2006)

CrashTestRanch said:


> Karin L, your statements about "squirrely" cattle reminded me of the herdsmen in Africa and the middle east .... I wonder how they have faired all these millennia with their herds ..


:hysterical: CTR, I think we'll leave that for another thread! Lets not get involved in the interesting parts of the Brahman or Bos indicus breed, yet, as there can be as much fun talking about these critters as the fun you'd get getting chased over a fence with a snot-slinging brammer intent on sending you into space.


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

Karin L said:


> Ahh, I didn't see that on there! As for that, I also forgot to mention different areas of the country have different environments suitable for different breeds of cattle. In the Prairies part of Alberta, this is where you'd find most of you're Angus folks, there abouts around Calgary, Medicine Hat, and Red Deer, not to mention those parts in Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Where I live, which is north of those area, it seems the reds are a sight more popular than the blacks; Red Angus, Hereford, Simmental, Gelbvieh, Limousin, Charolais and the like. And it's all due to the environment and the forage quantity/quality up here versus down in the more arid regions, making it more suitable for raising continentals than British breeds. However, it also has to do with influence from others and personal preferences. Black Angus isn't popular up here because only maybe 30% or 40% of the cattlemen up here raise them. The rest is comprised of reds. But I'm not saying we're completely devoid of Black Angus, it's just a matter of popularity in this part of the province.
> 
> Now I digress from what I said from the stats you posted on here about Black Angus here in Canada; the proof is in the pudding, obviously. Yes, obviously the Canadian Angus initiative has gone off the ground, but it's not as popular as down in the states. Canadians are more concerned if the beef they eat is _Canadian_, not Angus, unlike most consumers are down in the USA. Despite the fact that a little over half of branded beef programs in Canada are Angus, I don't see, on the market, Angus beef being marketed and promoted in Canada like I do in the states. Unless you can give me a link to disprove that statement as well.
> 
> ...



You are something else, aren't you? You post that % Angus can be registered. I'm defensive when I point out it's not true? You post the "CAB Initiative" (your term) hasn't got off the ground in Canada. I point out that over half the branded beef programs in Canada are Angus. And I'm defensive? You post that Angus aren't popular in CANADA (not your area...Canada). I point out that over half the registered cattle in Canada are Angus and I'm defensive? Time after time you post inaccurate statments. If not bias, why are you continually posting such inaccurate comments? Or are you just uninformed? 

As they say "you have the right to your own opinion. You do NOT have the right to your own facts." Raise what you want. I will.


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## Karin L (Oct 5, 2006)

<sigh>....

I didn't say that you get defensive when wrong things are said about Angus cattle, I said that people like you are eager and all too ready to defend the breed against these wrong claims. Did I say I had something against that? If I did I don't remember it. Heck all the other breeders of different breeds have the right to this too, and I do not have qualms with that either. 

I said I personally don't care for this Angus propaganda and CAB stuff based on my experiences and my opinions. And as for these "inaccurate statements" I said time and time again, I admit I was wrong, these are what I _*observed*_. These *OBSERVATIONS* obviously change when the right facts are given out, heck even I know that however "uninformed" I am. But EXPERIENCES and PERSONAL PREFERENCES are a bit different. 

And really don't remember saying I wasn't biased. Heck I just read back to my post just now and I said "I've got every reason to be as biased as I do." Is that really saying that I am not biased? No. It says to me I don't give a darn how biased I am because this, over the years based on my EXPERIENCES, is what I prefer, not because I'm "uninformed." 

Yeah, you raise what you want, and I'll raise what I want, I don't care. But I do care about this attitude you're giving me. And yeah, I actually DID learn some things from this thread. Like I said, I stated my *OBSERVATIONS*, not actual FACTS. Does that make me uninformed? Perhaps. But, observations are different from facts, and that doesn't make me less uninformed, just more _observational_. 

And did I learn some things from this thread? Of course. I believe I pointed to that in how I said what I said. But apparently that slipped through the cracks for you. 

Well, I'm done here. You have a nice day.


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## Valmai (Sep 29, 2004)

Why black?
A little simplistic I know but here in NZ (although the Angus Assoc. has done a great marketing job as well) the bias is not so much towards black as it is against red/brown. Anything red/brown is suspected of having jersey in it, and the so called experts insist jersey meat is useless.


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

Valmai said:


> and the so called *experts* insist jersey meat is useless.


"Expert", a noun formed by combining the prefix "ex", meaning "has been", with the word "spurt", meaning "a little drip under pressure".


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

Valmai said:


> Why black?
> A little simplistic I know but here in NZ (although the Angus Assoc. has done a great marketing job as well) the bias is not so much towards black as it is against red/brown. Anything red/brown is suspected of having jersey in it, and the so called experts insist jersey meat is useless.


That's interesting. I've always heard that Jersey meat is some of the best beef you can get. The problem with them in the commercial beef market here in the US is poor feed conversion and the lighter muscling than beef breeds.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

I'll put money down that the Jersey will grill up just fine after a few weeks hanging there aging, toss some salt and pepper on that 1" ribeye and slap it on the grill ...


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

CrashTestRanch said:


> I'll put money down that the Jersey will grill up just fine after a few weeks hanging there aging, toss some salt and pepper on that 1" ribeye and slap it on the grill ...


Jersey is some of the best-flavored meat there is. It doesn't require any more aging than anything else.


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## trbizwiz (Mar 26, 2010)

aging can increase "off" flavors, so be careful on the aging time. Also Jersey's will have lower body fat, so make sure to cool them more slowly. That outer layer of carcase fat slows the cooling which lends to better flavor and more tender meat. I have read that some will request the abattoir hang their leaner beef carcases in the middle of many fattier carcases, and some go as far as to wrap the carcase prior to hanging in the cooler. I have no direct experience, but I have done some research.


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

I was raised on a beef farm. we had mostly angus. good quality and a few herefords. Hands down the angus made better meat. Taste, marbling etc. we butched them right on the farm. We pasture raised. I like my steak rare, some cuts medium rare. If you cook your meat more than that you may not taste a difference.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

trbizwiz - I'm "testing" some aging of angus prime right now, should be ready for the grill on Saturday ...

farmgal - definitely rare to medium rare ONLY ....


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

ladycat said:


> As far as the Black Angus breed goes, I really like them. They are pretty to look at, and such a calm, nice breed.


you are kidding right? I wouldn't have angus. they are wild, un-controlable and dangerous. In my experience. Even the ones the kids showed at the fair had that crazy, Im ready to kill you and bolt look in their eyes.

maybe its a regional thing. circle of genetics..


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

My commercial angus cows are docile. They are never hand fed anything. I can and do approach them and they simple step aside. When they calve I can treat any calf born without the cow misbehaving. She will stand there and let me ear tag, band and apply iodine without threatening me. I started culling flighty and unpredictable animals early on.

An interesting aside, I have been to India many times. I never observed a Brahma breed bovine there that was mean or flighty. It is seldom to see any breed here with a Brahma influence that is not crazy.


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## Trisha-MN (May 10, 2002)

> Why Angus? Why Black?
> Seriously, why Angus and Black? What is it about black angus cattle that they can demand a premium at sale?


My family has raised Registered Black Angus cattle since the 1930's.
The Angus breed is known for calving ease, mother abilities, good growth,
hardiness and outstanding meat. 

We sell intact bulls as well as replacement females and weaned calves. We have selected the animals in our herd to have outstanding temperaments
and many of our bull buyers are repeat buyers. 

The cross between Angus and other breeds has proven to pass along
desired characteristics for the meat market.

The black color is based on the color genetics of cattle. There are advantages and disadvantages to color and breed based on where you live
and what your operation needs.

Hope that helps some - I say go with the Angus


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

it is interesting, I've watched hundreds of documentaries about "tribal" life in countries around the planet, and one thing that always stands out is how the natives are so close to their animals, even very young kids working in and around cattle herds ...


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

CrashTestRanch said:


> Same questions?
> 
> Not really, just trying to wrap my head around why a *premium* is paid for a BLACK animal ... you can spin it anyway you want to, we could spin that holstein the way of the angus
> 
> ...


It has been a while since you posted this. I am thinking the same way. How has this worked for you??


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