# Possible neighbor dog problem?



## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

Long story to provide some back information on the issue.

I have always gotten along with neighbors pretty good. I try to stay on my side of the fence and help out when I can. Got LGD's now so we can free range our stock and honestly that adds to the responsibility, does not make it less. We are planning to move about 3 miles away to a 20 acre property we bought a few years back. Been slowly working on it, got most all of it fenced (man, was that ever expensive??) So $10,000 later I have a good fence around it. 48" field fence on steel T post with Rail Road tie corners and braces. 2 fence chargers with 2 low wires inside, a top wire and one on the outside about dog height! I moved some of my pigs over about a year ago and they have been there every time. First time I took them over I had the gate open and I left them in some small pens for a few weeks to make sure they knew this was home. The elderly neighbor came riding by on his 4 wheeler and stopped in to visit. He seems nice and has always offered to help out if needed. He has some kind of larger greyhound looking mix dog which he allows to roam freely and takes for "runs" every day up and down the dirt road while riding his 4 wheeler. While we are talking his dog comes up and starts barking at my pigs and biting at them through the panels. He nips them a few times before they learn to stay away from the fence. They are used to my LGD's so not used to being bothered by a dog. I know he can not really get to them, so try to ignore it, thinking the neighbor will discipline his dog. He kinda chuckles and says "look, he is trying to play with them" 

Ok, I was not impressed much and honestly at that point figured we may have an issue at some time over his dog. Fast forward a year or so and I have my fence all up and so far have never seen his dog on my property, but admittedly, I am not there all the time. I moved several head of my sheep and lambs to the property a few weeks back along with some feeder pigs about 100#. We were working clearing a garden spot and my neighbor came riding by on his 4 wheeler, dog running along with him. I visit with him a while over the fence and told him any time I was over working he was welcome to come in, but I just could not have his dog in with my animals, and I let him know I had moved some sheep and lambs over as well. he offers to help by bringing his backhoe over and I accept his offer, but honestly did not care one way or the other, I have my own equipment!

While we were there working I had turned off the electric fence, which made it much easier going and coming out the gates. The neighbor comes over and I see his dog pacing along the fence. After about 30 minutes I look up to see his dog INSIDE my fence. I mention this to the neighbor and he simply replies "I do not think he will hurt anything". I was not particularly happy with his answer, but decided to watch the dog. I really hate having a problem with a so far good neighbor? Well, sure enough, as soon as no one is watching him off he goes chasing my pigs and biting at them. They are all huddled up facing him and he is barking and nipping when the opportunity presents itself. My nephew, who is helping also said he saw him doing it earlier and ran him off. I go to my neighbor and tell him what his dog is doing and that he will have to get him out. I am actually a bit upset by then so I add in a bit more, just to be clear. I tell him I have not brought my dogs over yet, but I had 2 dogs that lived with my animals at my house and when I bring them over if his dog comes in the fence they WILL kill him, so I did not want the dog to get in the habit of coming in the fence. he does not really say much, but says the only way to get him to leave would be for him to follow him home. At that point, I did not care, what ever he had to do!. He leaves driving off on his backhoe, dog running along with him. This was early on before noon. He never comes back, nor does he come back by the next day?

I think he took offense, but really do not think I did anything wrong. I have made every attempt to fence my property and keep my animals in and any other out. Seems reasonable to expect my neighbor to respect this and make an attempt to keep his dog away from my animals? We will be moving to this property probably this summer. I will be taking my dogs a Anatolian Male and a Anatolian mix female. I have little doubt they will not tolerate another dog coming in. I am quite certain my male for sure will kill the neighbors dog if he gets in. I hope I do not have any more problems. But simply can not see anything more I can do. I built a fence, I warned the neighbor and I will keep my dogs inside my fence as best I can. anything I am missing or can do different here? I would not tolerate one of my own dogs to harass my livestock, should I tolerate it from others dogs?


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Sounds like some peoples kids.I don't think you did anything wrong. We lost what we thought were good friends when we asked their kids to stay off our hay field.Had visiting kids fall into my Koi pond,parents laugh, kid go thru elec. fence to pet our angus bull...We have a good neighbor that does everything he can to keep his dogs home, but they blast thru the elec dog fence and do come over. My dh says he'll shoot them, and I say no-but if my 3 rottweilers took care of the situation, what can anyone expect.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Everyone's animals need to stay on their own property. His and yours. 

You may want to put up a couple of cameras in case his dog comes on your property and has a negative meeting with your dogs or stock. It could save you some money. Make yourself aware of what the laws are in your area for critters going on someone else's property. Good luck.


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

hard to put up cameras when there is 20 acres of fence line and property. There are no leash laws outside the city limits and I am definitely outside the city limits. So legally I can not make him keep his dog up. His dog was able to get under the fence by a gate while the hot wire was turned off. Otherwise he would not be able to get in very easily. however I have had trees fall during storms below and take out a section of fence. During this time it is understandable to me issues may come up where my stock gets out or his can come in. 


Not cure there is much more I can do at this point, but I think it serves as a good reminder to those considering LGD's the dogs may solve some of your problems, but may also create other issues. Just as other peoples dogs can create other issues. I guess we can not always expect the same considerations from others that we give them. I would never knowingly let my animals infringe or bother someone else. But not everyone thinks that way. the same as not everyone understands a simple replacement cost is not always what is important. The market value on a pig or sheep or goat, is not necessarily covered by market value, when it is a breeder you spent a lot of time creating or searching for.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

I would turn on the fence, and set up a situation (if possible) so dog encounters the consequences, to train that dog about electric fences...your fence in particular. 
Might put it off coming around.

What are the laws regarding protecting your livestock from free ranging domestic dogs in your area? I would assume they are liberal and that the old guy would be well aware of that....or maybe you're not in an intensive agricultural area?

Best of Luck...loose dogs and inconsiderate/oblivious humans, SHM.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Since the dog accompanies him, stands to reason that it goes inside his house too. Save a piece of meat, let it get ripe and if the dog comes over rub it on him or make a solution and use one of those long range water guns. After taking home a real stink with him his owner might see the advantage of not letting him roam. 

I did this in Milw. with fish fertilizer many years ago and it was quite effective. The guy use to walk his little dog on a leash long enough to allow the dog to come leave presents in everyone's yards. One day the dog got loose and I was fertilizing the tomatoes with fish fertilizer and the pup got a hefty dose too! Funny how people are reluctant to see your point of view unless it's right up under their nose...


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I agree with others in that I think you've dealt with the situation in a positive manner and have not done anything wrong.

The idea of keeping your electric fence "on" is probably a great deterrant; however, as you stated, while you are gone, a tree may fall over onto your fence and leave an opening for critters going in (or out). 

If I were in your area, I would contact the "county" Sheriff's Dept and find out what the legalities of such a situation truly are. It may be that you can have the old gent served with a "notice" of some type warning him that his dog may be hurt by your LGDs should it venture onto your place again. Talking with the Sheriff about this will certainly give you an edge should that old man's dog actually get on your place and harms your animal, winding up needing to be seen by a vet. (I doubt you would be held responsible for that vet bill since it occurred on your place AND YOU HAD ALREADY GIVEN WARNING.)


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

Actually, I do know the laws in my area and I will not be held legally responsible if his dog ventures onto my property and I or my dogs kill it in the protection of my livestock. However at the same time there are no laws that says he must keep his dog on a leash or can not allow it to run freely. Honestly, I have dealt with legal issues before over fences and other things and that will be a last resort I assure you. I have never pursed a legal action of this type and actually gotten the intended result. very few people I know of, myself included, take kindly to being served with a legal notice. having a neighbor you do not get along with can make for a long difficult life, always waiting, always looking for the next confrontation to pop up. I sincerely do not want that at all.

I hope his dog stays away. I hope once I hang my LGD signs on the fence and he sees the dogs in the fence he will take some precautions. I have seen dog disputes get very ugly in recent years.

We had a case about 5 years back of a man killing a neighbors **** dog. The neighbor (who's dog it was) was charged a year later with murder when they found the mans remains in his pond once he came up missing. The only reason they caught him was because shortly after the man came up missing, the neighbor (who's dog was killed) had ask another neighbor about using his backhoe to dig a hole and that got police to looking in his direction. In the end the man admitted to killing his neighbor because they had had some disputes and his dog getting killed at the hands of his neighbor was the last straw. There is a saying I have heard often "Never pick a fight with an old man, for if he thinks he cannot beat you he may just shoot you" There is a lot of truth to this. I think we all come to a place and time in our life where we have decided on certain boundaries and will hold to those ideals regardless of the cost.

Do I think my neighbor would kill me? No. Do I think a confrontation, either physical or legal would have the desired affect, probably not for either of us.

I will relate one other incident, again more for those new to livestock and issues that can come up.

There was a man who had sheep and his neighbor had pit bulls. The pit bulls had on several occasions been seen chasing his sheep in his pasture, when they were allowed out by the owners. The man warned the owners who lived across the field in view of his own house. He told them if the dogs came back he intended to kill them. They had some heated words and that was that! A few weeks later the man sees the dogs chasing his sheep in his pasture. He gets his 30-30 and shoots first one dog, then the next. The neighbor see's this happen and went inside and got a pistol. The neighbor started across the field with pistol in hand to confront the man who had just killed his dogs. When he got closer at some point the man took a shot at him with the pistol. A pistol is no match for a rifle and one shot from the rifle and the neighbor was lying dead. The dead mans wife was also watching and came to her husbands side, picked up the pistol and again fired at the man who had killed the dogs and shot her husband. A rifle shot and she was wounded, but survived, her husband did not. The neighbor with the rifle was also wounded, by the shot from the husband.

In the end it was found that the dead man and his wife were both felons who had fled from Colorado and had been living in Arkansas under alias names for some time. The woman was extradited to Colorado when she recovered and the neighbor recovered from his gunshot wound and was never charged with shooting the woman or the death of her husband.

Now I do agree these are not typical of neighbor and dog disputes. I would also say none of the people involved, if they had been ask before hand, could have envisioned the outcome as it turned out to be. People can become very emotionally attached to animals, especially dogs, and especially in today's world, where dogs are many times viewed as family members not just livestock. Does this make everyone's actions ok or acceptable? No, but at the same time it can certainly affect the lengths some will go to, to protect a dog or get revenge for the death of one. People can, and do, become blinded to the reality of a situation by emotions at times.

I am sincerely hoping I can avoid any such confrontations. I feel I have provided ample warning and do not feel I intentionally insulted the man, but wanted to be clear that I intended to protect my livestock. Hopefully the signs and the dogs will deter him and his dog from my property?


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I think the neighbor was embarrassed. Try to make amends with him. If you ever see the dog again, try and grab him. Either put him in your car and bring him back to the neighbor, or put him in the house and have the neighbor come and get him.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

I wouldn't blame you for being really stressed out right now. If all those stories had happened in my neighborhood I would probably be that one guy who just never talks to anybody.

As for your neighbor. I don't think you did anything wrong. You dropped the hint and outright told him that you didn't want his dog in there, and he just ding-a-linged around anyway and his dog got in and chased your pigs. I can't stand it when people expect everyone else to modify their worldviews for their dog. 

I would say the one thing that might have got under his skin the most was he might have seen it as a threat when you said your dogs would kill his. Maybe apologize and just say that you don't want any of your animals or your dogs to get hurt, and you wouldn't outright choose to hurt his dog either. If he was volunteering his time and equipment to come help you out, I'd say he was trying to make neighborly with you. Could be a pretty great neighbor if you guys can make amends regarding the dog.


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

Wis, You may be right, he may have taken it that way, although honestly I did not mean it as a threat. I just wanted him to understand the seriousness of the situation and establish a clear boundary, as up until that point seems he had just kinda taken a "aww no big deal" approach to it. I hold no grudge or hard feelings toward him. I kinda feel sorry for him in a way. More than once he has come over while we were working in the past year or so and lamented how he wishes he were young again and could do stuff like he used to. I just did not want to get started into a position where I felt bad for protecting my own animals and accepting behavior from his dog I would not accept from mine. Kinda felt like letting a neighbors kid keep picking on my kid because I wanted to "Get along" and I did not think it would actually Kill my kid. Sorry, maybe that is not the best explanation, but maybe you understand. We should not have to feel guilty for protecting our own stuff. Which to me means why should we put up with bad behavior from others animals (and kids) that we would not tolerate from our own?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

I say again, the more I learn about people, the more I like dogs.:facepalm:

Your neighbor is an idiot, and therefore he raises idiots.
Hopefully his dog has enough greyhound in him that he can outrun your dogs before they kill him or maybe figure out that going inside your fence isn't a good idea and the dog ends up being smarter than the old man.

I've had a few encounters with idiot neighbors myself and I will say a prayer on your behalf.
As you said, it pays to be cautious around idiots and avoid them if possible.
Good luck.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Muleman said:


> Wis, You may be right, he may have taken it that way, although honestly I did not mean it as a threat. I just wanted him to understand the seriousness of the situation and establish a clear boundary, as up until that point seems he had just kinda taken a "aww no big deal" approach to it. I hold no grudge or hard feelings toward him. I kinda feel sorry for him in a way. More than once he has come over while we were working in the past year or so and lamented how he wishes he were young again and could do stuff like he used to. I just did not want to get started into a position where I felt bad for protecting my own animals and accepting behavior from his dog I would not accept from mine. Kinda felt like letting a neighbors kid keep picking on my kid because I wanted to "Get along" and I did not think it would actually Kill my kid. Sorry, maybe that is not the best explanation, but maybe you understand. We should not have to feel guilty for protecting our own stuff. Which to me means why should we put up with bad behavior from others animals (and kids) that we would not tolerate from our own?


Yea I do understand it. It's similar. Some things are more important than getting along. Plus, by trying to keep his dog from a fight with yours, you're doing more to get along than he is at this point, he just hadn't figured that out. 

You've both had time to think about it, and I wouldn't be surprised if he can see your side of it.

You might not have needed him, but I'm sure having a second machine out there knocked out some time. If he's like most of us are, he would probably appreciate you reaching out. Even if he seems a little rankled at first, everything might come around.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

You certainly have every right to keep that dog off your property, but if that dog can get through the fence then yours probably can as well. You could just as quickly become the neighbor with the bad dogs. Of course if your dogs get loose and harm his, you can be liable as well, and you did already admitted to having aggressive dogs. Dog situations are tough, his is obviously a close companion of him and chances are he took it as a threat or even an insult. My neighbor was an emt and had a scanner, his dog would cross the highway and crap in front of my garage door every day. I knew that he had a scanner and listened to my calls when I was on the cordless phone. One day I told a friend if they came over again I was going to shoot them (I wasn't really going too, was just venting) Guess what he never waved or talked to me again, not a loss on my part though so I didn't care. Luckily it ended at that and the dogs never came over again. If it were me I would just apologize and say you didn't ,mean for it to come off as a threat and you like his dog, but don't want it to get hurt so he needs to keep it home. If he can't handle that, then he isn't worth having around. With out him around, you will probably never see the dog.


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

Jason, I understand where you are coming from, his dog was able to get in, because I turned the electric fence off, while we were working there. That is not something I do often and not something I would do once my dogs are there. I never told him I had "aggressive" dogs. I simply told him I had dogs that lived with my pigs and when I brought them over, if his dog came in the fence they would kill him. A dog that protects and an aggressive dog are two different things to me. I do not think my dogs would make an attempt to leave the property and actively go outside to hunt something to kill. Yes, I do admit if my dogs were to get out and onto someone else's property and kill something I would be responsible, no doubt about that. I do intend to make every effort possible to insure that does not happen. I simply expect the same courtesy from others.


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## Phil V. (May 31, 2013)

I understand where you are coming from on the LGD dogs. I have 2 great Pyrenees myself. I have a neighbor that has 2 young pitbulls that tend to run and I told him the same thing that you told your neighbor about getting in the pasture and he if they did that it was their own fault for listening to the warning barks from my pyrs. I'm just waiting for another 1 of my neighbors Doberman to show up because they got a warning from the city pd and the county pd about keeping it home because it tried attacking people on their property before.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Muleman, I understand your logic behind an aggressive animal and a protector, but courts and the law do not see it that way. I don't know all of MI laws, but a quick search for dangerous dog laws came up with this Statutes 287.321 - 323



> "Dangerous animal" means a dog or other animal that bites or attacks a person, or a dog that bites or attacks and causes serious injury or death to another dog while the other dog is on the property or under the control of its owner.


As soon as a "protective" dog gets off its property and attacks another dog, its a dangerous dog. If that happens, what happens next is going to all depend on how ACO or the sheriff decides to proceed with it. Keep in mind most people view dogs as companions and family members, not working animals. In today's world of dog parks, doggy day care etc the general public has little tolerance for dog aggression and law enforcement has about zero tolerance for dog issues. Now if your dogs got loose and attacked his dog and the law decides to take you down the dangerous dog road, when the owner says you told him your dogs would kill his they are going to look at that as admittance to having an aggressive or dangerous dog. As a former ACO I have seen how this can play out.

Something else to think about, chances are even if he stops coming over he is going to run his dog past your place on the atv. This is probably going to drive your dogs bonkers even if it doesn't approach the fence. It will probably start with just some barking and running the fence line, but each day he does this increases the frustration in your dogs and it may escalate to the point they go through the fence. 4 feet is nothing for them to clear and if the temptation is enough most dogs will take a shock. It is like with the mail carrier, he comes, the dog flips out and he leaves. The next day it repeats and a pattern starts to form and soon the dog is out of control before he even starts making his way up the side walk. I know sometimes its not an option, but I really advise against fencing LGD next to roads.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I suppose in hindsight the OP could have made the point about the neighbours dog stronger at the start. Shouldn't have to and its as maddening as telling an 8 year old to wipe their nose. Not really a dog problem as a people problem. If you own a dog even a good one you're responcible for its actions. Especially visitor dogs!!!


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

Jason I understand you explanation and according to the statute and the letter of the law, he has a "Dangerous" dog as it has been show to attach other animals (my pigs) and this has been witnessed by other people, other than my self. So in a sense if I were to kill his dog, when it came on my property (which I am not wanting to do) then I would have a case against him for allowing a dangerous dog to run lose, access my property and attack my livestock.

I understand the letter of the law when it comes to issues like this. But as I stated earlier, there comes a point where you either take steps to protect your property and your livestock or you do not. My main protection is the fence, secondary is the dogs. I simply can not be out with the animals 24/7. The choice we have to make is to provide this added protection or simply decide we are not willing to take the responsibility and instead choose to simply lose some stock if a predator accesses them.

I see this as a similar choice to arm oneself for personal protection or not. Yes there is a responsibility that comes with arming ones self, but there is also great risk to personal protection that comes with not doing it. A person always hopes they do not have to excessive the use of deadly force, but having it there as a last resort is important in my view.


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## DryHeat (Nov 11, 2010)

You haven't mentioned if this old guy has any family, wife, adult kids, etc, living with him or if he's on his own. Especially if he's by himself, he could be tightly bonded to the dog, likely have established the pattern that they go everywhere together (ATV and walking at least) extending to a sort of "love me, love my dog" pattern. He might not have taken your caution as a threat but rather thought to himself without discussing with you, "If it's not safe for the dog to be with me, I just won't ever come in here again. Neighbor's loss, not mine. etc" The fact that he didn't instantly call his pooch away from your pigs in no uncertain terms is the most bothersome part of it to me, it speaks to a lack of training of the dog plus irresponsibility or even general low mental savvy by your neighbor since you'd started off right away saying you didn't want the dog approaching your livestock. Is he truly elderly to where he could be having dementia problems? Perhaps you could talk with him again trying the mild apology route but asking what he would suggest you do to discourage his dog IF you find it getting past your fence bothering the pigs without him present? Maybe ask if stinging it with a paint gun would be acceptable to him, or if he'd be extremely angry if you did anything but call him? Of course, if your LGDs are present and handle it on their own, that'd be a moot point. But, as you said, you haven't seen the dog other than accompanying the neighbor so perhaps it'll not be a problem at all if it's a close companion/ pet for him, maybe he even keeps it indoors with him other than on ATV runs?


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

DH, The neighbor is not old to the point of deminsia. I believe him to be in his 70's, but he is still able to get around a do things quite well. He does have a wife, butt hey have no kids, so I am sure they do view the dog as some kind of a kid replacement to them. He has mentioned in the past how his dog wants to go where he goes. Even to the point if he goes to town he must have his wife take the dog off on a run with the 4 wheeler so it does not try to follow him. However, as all dogs left to their own accord, at times I have seen it off away from their house by itself. I am not sure if he had not been on my property if his dog would have tried so hard to find a way in or not. It is a dog after all and even the best of dogs will do things we do not think they would do at times. 
Another issue is the fact that the man works away some. As in right now he is probably gone again to California for a job. When he is gone it is normally for several weeks or more at a time. His wife doe not seem to venture out of the house much and the dog is left to occupy its own time outside. It is not an inside dog. This is normally when I see it venturing farther away from their house. 
Before I built my fence, while I was still working on it. I had a young Catahoula female. I took her over a time or two with me as she was just a pet more or less. I stopped taking her over, because his dog would jump on her and chase her and she would come cowering trying to get away from it. he saw this on a few occasions and paid it no mind and would make no attempt to control his dog or call him off. This was not a big deal at the time and I made the decision to simply not take my dog when I went over to work. I know the man has somewhat of an attitude of "I have lived here longer than anyone else and have always done this". He has made mention on occasion that he was the first to build a house in this area and he first to run electric and water to his property etc. never in a way I took offense to, but in a way to indicate a type of right or ownership. I could be wrong, but I really do not think he has any intention of ever restraining his dog or building a fence to keep it on his own property. I think he feels since he was here first and has always allowed his dog to run freely and in his mind "His dog is not hurting anything" he has no responsibility to keep it on his own property. he has told me of how his dog has brought home rabbits and such that it has killed, so while I see this as normal dog behavior, I also see it as an indication it will kill when the opportunity presents itself.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Yea I would agree with you about his dog being a threat to your pigs. It's a hunter. I will say this about your neighbor though. If he's just ignorant in thinking his dog won't hurt anything, at least he doesn't want it to hurt anything. Maybe you can work with that. Some people just let their dogs run around so they can let their imaginations run wild and talk to everybody about what a big tough hunting dog it is, and how it beats up the other dogs in the neighborhood, eats rabbits, and single pawdly killed a lion that escaped from the zoo. People are morons. My uncle is a big time hunter, but when he got older all he had for dogs was a little lapdog. He just barely managed to save her from the neighbor's blue tick, because I guess the blue tick thought she was a rabbit? We're not too sure that neighbor didn't give the command.


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

I know when most people think of a neighbor with a problem dog usually most of us will visualize a druggie with a pitbull. That is easy to deal with it is clear cut right and wrong and there is no middle ground really. But that is not always the case with dog owners. The issues are not always that clear cut. I would almost rather deal with the druggie and the pitbull, I would have no quarrel with SSS for that case. But this is really different. This neighbor is not a bad person and his dog is not an aggressive dog in the sense I would fear of being bitten by it. However, his lack of attention to what problems his dog is causing and can cause and his lack of a willingness to properly control it, is what makes the situation more difficult to deal with. 

I will readily admit, there are some people I would have no problem driving up to their house and telling them the next time their dog came on my property I was going to kill it. But this is simply not the case here. I am really hoping after this minor incident he will pay more attention to his dog and make a better attempt to control it, we will see I guess?


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## DryHeat (Nov 11, 2010)

I suppose you can hope your electric fencing will separate his dog from your stock, and your dogs from his when you've brought them over. He and his wife might be heartbroken if their pet vanished under any circumstances. You might even consider backing off from any further discussion or warnings to him, possibly to the point of putting on a happy-face, or at least casual, *act*, regarding the dog and possible problems. You seem to have picked up on signs the old guy isn't likely to listen or change his behavior to try to guide his animal in any way. So, trying to escalate advice or complaints will just make you the focus of suspicions if anything, even if not your doing at all, *does* happen to it, especially if it just vanishes. The biggest mess possible sounds to me like any chance your LGDs go across your fencing into the road and injure or kill it as it's passing by. I'd suggest trying to get your dogs trained to figure crossing those lines is their biggest no-no, but of course that may not work. Anyway, if you *do* start seeing that unfortunate pattern playing out... neighbor dog appearing on your land, harassing livestock, your LGDs chasing it off, dog returning thinking it's all a big game and fast enough not to get torn to pieces, your dogs getting more frantic to settle the problem so you can imagine the fence-jump scenario approaching maybe with neighbor right there on his ATV in the road, etc. ... maybe you consider the "hale fellow well-met" act, swallowing your tongue and saying everyone seems to be playing nicely, since that's the hallucination the old guy would want to believe, then doing the SSS route when he's likely even out of town completely.

Me, I always have liked to think open communication, facts, good advice, "rule of law" in worst cases, and so on, are the civilized way to interact with other folks. But now after many years of getting to realize there are numbers out there like 10% very stupid, 10% irresponsible, 5% mentally ill, 5% violent drunks, 5% criminals, 1% paranoid schizophrenics, and so on, (sometimes several classes combined, of course) I think it's only sensible to work up Plan B in some cases. This might be one of those for you, if that electric fencing and LGD presence doesn't work as a reality check once it's all in place.


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## TJN66 (Aug 29, 2004)

Marking to read later


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## CountryMom22 (Nov 27, 2014)

Unfortunately this is a disaster looking for a place to happen. Good luck.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Just thought I'd post here a FYI. Yesterday, I observed our cattle in a group,mooing like crazy. I got out my benoculars and a racoon was in the group. A 2yr. angus bull crushed that **** with his head. One of the old longhorn cows proceded to do the same and then stomp it, she attempted to flick it with her horns. Another LH cow came over and did the same. They left, came up to the water trough for a drink, about 200 yards. Patsy(LH) kept her eye on that ****. She saw it move and went on a dead run back to that **** and it started all over. I called dh to tell him what I was watching. Dh says he tells people all the time about what LH's will do to invaders of their pasture, but this is the first we have ever seen it like this.We have never had problems with coyotes, which are all arround us-now I know why.

Nother thing, I knew a man that kept many LARGE hogs in a fenced area. He fed them loaves of bread out of the back of his truck. The hogs were tame,used to him-but, one pig turned his snout real fast to fend off another hog- a tooth(I assume a needle tooth) caught Curleys leg,sliced it wide open. Over 150 stiches in his thigh.
Moral of the many storyes I could tell-keep your dogs and kids away from animals if they don't know how to behave/handle animals.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Muleman said:


> I know when most people think of a neighbor with a problem dog usually most of us will visualize a druggie with a pitbull. That is easy to deal with it is clear cut right and wrong and there is no middle ground really. But that is not always the case with dog owners. The issues are not always that clear cut. I would almost rather deal with the druggie and the pitbull, I would have no quarrel with SSS for that case. But this is really different. This neighbor is not a bad person and his dog is not an aggressive dog in the sense I would fear of being bitten by it. However, his lack of attention to what problems his dog is causing and can cause and his lack of a willingness to properly control it, is what makes the situation more difficult to deal with.
> 
> I will readily admit, there are some people I would have no problem driving up to their house and telling them the next time their dog came on my property I was going to kill it. But this is simply not the case here. I am really hoping after this minor incident he will pay more attention to his dog and make a better attempt to control it, we will see I guess?


Maybe You will get the chance to say something to your neighbor that You would never want to have his dog get hurt. Some people just don't think, they go right into "defense" mode. Gotta get the guy in the soft spot to "get it" sometimes.


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## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

A couple of things after reading through almost every word of this thread. First is that you said there are no leash laws because you are outside city limits. You may want to recheck that - there is almost nowhere in the country nowadays where it is permissible for a dog to run freely. Outside city limits you are governed by county laws and almost every county has a law regarding maintaining your dog on your property and not allowing it to roam freely.

Second, I share in your frustration over the neighbor's attitude. My neighbor is a good friend and visits frequently. Her dog - a lab/boxer mix - is a little over a year old and accompanies my neighbor everywhere. More than once the dog has chased my sheep and goats and my neighbor also calls it "just playing". I've tried talking to her about how that's almost always how dog killing livestock starts - "just play" - but that playful behavior sometimes becomes killing when the dog discovers it can do more than just chase. Unfortunately it all falls on deaf ears and I still hear about how the dog loves to "play". And, recently, when the dog chased the sheep without admonishment, it was I who came out screaming at the dog, chased it down, threw it on its back, screamed in its face about what a bad dog it is and then told it to go home. My neighbor stood and watched all of this without a word. As you said, I won't tolerate behavior from my neighbor's dog that I wouldn't tolerate from my own - and in this case I handled it just as I would handle the behavior if it were my own dog. I felt I needed to get the dog's attention that the behavior is NOT acceptable, since my neighbor is definitely NOT sending that message to her dog. My neighbor and I have never discussed it - it just sort of happened and then we went back to how things were before.

It IS a problem when it is a neighbor. In my case, as in yours, I don't want to damage my friendship with my neighbor. It really is a sticky situation. 

Please keep us updated on yours.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Moboiku kind of brings up a feeling I've always had. Dogs can become a source of tension in any situation, and usually it's because someone needs their dog for emotional reasons and they don't really establish themselves as the authority figure. I had friends, a married couple, who always had to know more than everyone else. Doesn't matter what it is. If they get involved in something, including owning and caring for dogs, they are instantly better than everyone around them at it. Which, of course, requires them to be different than everyone else around them. So they read all these books, watched all these videos, and decided they knew the "real" way to bring up a puppy and if you even tried to engage in conversation one or both of them would talk to you like you were an idiot. I doubt that all of the methods they read/watched were bad, it was their comprehension and interpretation that was lacking. 

They decided that, to avoid shutting down the dog and "breaking" it, thus suppressing its true personality, they had to let him be himself. They would repeat all of these quotes about working with the dog as a partner not a slave, etc. etc. I know there is some truth to that, and you have to be careful not to shut a dog down. But still... The result of their method was, they would invite people over and the dog would spend most of the night trying to ninja everyone's food right off their plate...even if it was on the table. When you walked in the door you were supposed to show him your displeasure with the paw he just slapped onto your crotch by folding your arms and turning around to ignore him. EVERY time you went over. They would complain to us about leaving our food too close to the edge of the table, and I finally just snapped one day. "He had it a foot in from the edge, where do you want us to put it?!!?" I apologized. Time went by. Then one day we're brewing beer, and dogs can't have hops. They just can't. But my friends are just kind laughing like "Oh you little rascal" when he'd race in to grab something we dropped, which would eventually be hops, and I guess they thought that was all they could do. Well, I didn't want the dog to get sick and/or die because I dropped some hops, I knew they would blame me, so I finally put my knee in his chest and started walking him backward. He tried to pull away and I pushed forward to let him know he was going where I was putting him. He figured it out. Once I had him in the other room he laid down and lowered his head. I told him to stay, turned around and went back to the kitchen, and that dog watched me like I was his new god for about two hours. Didn't move once. 

I would say that's about the time that friendship deteriorated. My friend felt disrespected in his home. I didn't care. The tension led to several unrelated arguments (proxy wars I guess), and I'd say we just moved on to new friends.

In other words. If your dogs don't respect your friends' personal space, or if it doesn't respect your authority, put in a fence and leave him at home, or kennel him when your friends come over.

Not talking to anyone here obviously. Just stating a strong feeling.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

The whole philosophy of letting the dog express it's true personality and not be corrected is the same philosophy touted by some parents with their children. And when the kids reach about 14 you have parents lamenting "I don't know why Johnny/Susie are so out of control...". :smack


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## cfuhrer (Jun 11, 2013)

As for what steps you can take I would take a two fold approach:

A- as some have already mentioned you might go visit the neighbor, take cookies or something, "and oh by the way, about what I said about the guard dogs" and then clarify you would feel awful if something were to happen if the dog should wander inside your fence, etc., etc.

B- I would make a report with the sheriff that the neighbor dog was harassing your stock, you asked the neighbor to control him, neighbor didn't, you warned neighbor that there would be LGD's in residence in the future, neighbor collected dog and left. Make it clear you don't want to press charges, you just want a record of the event to establish a behavior pattern for the neighbor dog.

That way if something does happen on your property despite your best efforts to fence the dog out, you have a record trail showing the neighbor was on notice.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

Triple Ditto wiscto!!

I've 'lost' several 'friends' due to their dogs running out of control in the name of __________ .
Fill in the blank with any number of ridiculous reasons folks don't properly train their dogs.


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## Jennifer L. (May 10, 2002)

Begin as you mean to go on. That dog should have been yelled at the first time it was snapping at the pigs through the fence, but, wow, that is so hard to do when the owner is sitting there saying "isn't that cute" and you know you have to get along with them.

Sounds like you have things under control with that fence and your dogs when you get them there.


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

I am not overly worried about it at this point. A person can only do they best they can and deal with issues as they come up. It is just one of those unneeded and really unnecessary issues to deal with. Where you just go "I really do not want to mess with this"

Who knows this might turn out to be a good thing. I really think having a bit of distance is a good thing when it comes to relations with neighbors. So maybe this will set some boundaries here in the beginning and keep a bit of distance between us, so as not to cause issues later. I am just not really crazy about those "your stuff is my stuff" kinda neighbor relationships. Even though I know there are some here who have that kind of close relation with their neighbors. I just do not think I would ever be comfortable in such a close relationship?


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

You nailed it!


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

Often people who think their dog can do no wrong think everyone else's dogs should be safe pets and anything willing to kill should not be bred and kept by anyone. I had a highschool teacher say people should be able to kick and hit dogs and they should still not bite. I told him to just come try it and the minor bites he gets that are just enough for my dog to get away will not be the injuries he'll have to worry about. These different view points cause huge issues in city limits. Luckily most places are better out in the country and the laws are more protective of a dog defending it's property. It takes careful explaining to people that it's a necessary part of their behavior in order to protect the livestock and they are just doing their job if they see his dog coming near the livestock. Some people still don't get it though. My stepdad let's their norwegian elkhound run everywhere off leash. He's upset people all over and hasn't realized it one bit. If another animal is a threat to his dog then in his mind it is the fault of the person keeping that animal and he sees no reason anyone should worry about their tiny dog breeds or other animals around his dog. It did take off with one of my chickens while I was puppysitting and my husband recovered the chicken before it was harmed. He was the same with the bernese mountain dog we had when I still lived there. I kept locking the dog up for following us on horseback down the highway and he kept letting him out saying the poor dog was complaining. Then the neighbor down the road would threaten to shoot the dog and say his dogs would kill it for getting on his property. There wasn't a whole heck of a lot my sister and I could do as teenagers about this situation and we were always the ones getting yelled at for it. Every time we caught sight of the dog following I always had to move the horses off fast back toward our land with the main house so the dog would follow and I could find a new way to secure him.


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## Phil V. (May 31, 2013)

How are things going for you? Got thinking about you today while I was brushing my Pyrs today.


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## Osteve (Apr 13, 2012)

Phil V. said:


> How are things going for you? Got thinking about you today while I was brushing my Pyrs today.




Any update ???


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