# 53 pediatric flu deaths so far...



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Not good, there are two more months of flu season. 

"Sixteen flu-related deaths were reported Friday by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in its weekly flu report. This brings the total number of pediatric flu-related deaths to 53 for the season, which began in October.

According to the report, influenza activity is now widespread in 48 states and Puerto Rico, down from 49 states in the previous two weeks. Oregon joined Hawaii in lower activity levels for the week ending January 27.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/31/health/flu-symptoms/index.html
"Our latest tracking data indicate that flu activity is still high and widespread across most of the nation and increasing overall," said Dr. Anne Schuchat, the acting CDC director. "So far this year, the cumulative rate of hospitalizations is the highest since we've been tracking in this way, which goes back to 2010."

From: https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/02/health/flu-weekly-surveillance-feb-2/index.html


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

There is a lot of healthy adult deaths too which makes it harder to pinpoint how any pedi and elderly deaths there will be. There was a woman, late thirties, in Houston this week that died. Never smoked or did drugs. The paper says she died on the way to the doctor. It's pretty scary stuff this time around.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> There is a lot of healthy adult deaths too which makes it harder to pinpoint how any pedi and elderly deaths there will be. There was a woman, late thirties, in Houston this week that died. Never smoked or did drugs. The paper says she died on the way to the doctor. It's pretty scary stuff this time around.


It's nuts, and just a horrible flu year.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> It's nuts, and just a horrible flu year.


Also a friend of a friend died two weeks ago supposedly from the scrip he recieved. Nonetheless, it was there flu that did it.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> Also a friend of a friend died two weeks ago supposedly from the scrip he recieved. Nonetheless, it was there flu that did it.


Tamiflu? There is allegation that it caused a teenager to commit suicide.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Tamiflu? There is allegation that it caused a teenager to commit suicide.


Yes I think so.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Seems many of the deaths are from secondary infections.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> Seems many of the deaths are from secondary infections.


Yes, it's very common, always has been.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> Yes, it's very common, always has been.


Shouldn't the CDC send an alert out to that effect?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> Shouldn't the CDC send an alert out to that effect?


Why? It's ultimately the primary infection (flu) that the caused the death.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Here ya go....


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

From the PA Health people, as of Jan 27, over 35,000 total cases have been verified in PA alone.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why? It's ultimately the primary infection (flu) that the caused the death.


You just agreed that many of the deaths were the result of secondary causes. Now you're just arguing with yourself!


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> You just agreed that many of the deaths were the result of secondary causes. Now you're just arguing with yourself!


Do you really not understand that influenza victims die of secondary infections frequently and that cause if death is still the flu? 
You really don’t understand how that works?


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

I just wish there was some reliable data on this. (If anyone knows of a good source, please post about it.) I go from panicking one moment to thinking it is just a lot of media hype the next. Earlier today I was reading an article on a local news website stating that they local hospital system had 600 confirmed cases of the flu and that there were 12 flu-related-death. That is a 2% death rate - pretty scary, right? But how accurate is the 600 figure? And are there really only 600 cases of flu in a region with about 600,000 people (it seems a lot more people are sick than 0.1 %). 

I have also seen a news article that claimed that most of the flu deaths were perfectly healthy, relatively young adults or children over the age 5. Yet speaking to a friend who works as an ICU nurse, she tells me that all flu patients she has had have some type of a condition that is made worse by the flu. Although she also did say that the problems the patients have are more severe than she has seen in a long time. 

Anyway ... I just wonder to what degree this is all media fueled panic ...


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> You just agreed that many of the deaths were the result of secondary causes. Now you're just arguing with yourself!


LOL. I'm not arguing with myself, you don't seem to understand. What caused the primary infection? Do you not understand that if it weren't for the flu there wouldn't be a *secondary* condition?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

FarmerKat said:


> I just wish there was some reliable data on this. (If anyone knows of a good source, please post about it.) I go from panicking one moment to thinking it is just a lot of media hype the next. Earlier today I was reading an article on a local news website stating that they local hospital system had 600 confirmed cases of the flu and that there were 12 flu-related-death. That is a 2% death rate - pretty scary, right? But how accurate is the 600 figure? And are there really only 600 cases of flu in a region with about 600,000 people (it seems a lot more people are sick than 0.1 %).
> 
> I have also seen a news article that claimed that most of the flu deaths were perfectly healthy, relatively young adults or children over the age 5. Yet speaking to a friend who works as an ICU nurse, she tells me that all flu patients she has had have some type of a condition that is made worse by the flu. Although she also did say that the problems the patients have are more severe than she has seen in a long time.
> 
> Anyway ... I just wonder to what degree this is all media fueled panic ...


The CDC is the most reliable I know of because flu is reported. I imagine the rates are higher than reported because many people just tough it out and don't get diagnosed.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Lisa in WA said:


> Do you really not understand that influenza victims die of secondary infections frequently and that cause if death is still the flu?
> You really don’t understand how that works?


So if your child dies of a secondary kidney infection or sepsis, and it is not treated by the doctor, as long as they treated the flu you are OK with it?

I want to know why all these flu victims are dying from secondary diseases that are treatable when properly diagnosed. It's the CDC's responsibility to prepare our healthcare system to handle exactly this type of situation. I'm surprised you are so cavalier about preventable deaths.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mreynolds said:


> There was a woman, late thirties, in Houston this week that died.


There was a death here of a woman in her early 40's who was a volunteer fire fighter.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> Shouldn't the CDC send an alert out to that effect?


Everyone already knows it.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There was a death here of a woman in her early 40's who was a volunteer fire fighter.


From the flu? 

Do you have a link maybe you can PM me? I have a few contacts with the National Fallen Firefighters Foundation and maybe can get her family some help if they dont already have someone.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> So if your child dies of a secondary kidney infection or sepsis, and it is not treated by the doctor, as long as they treated the flu you are OK with it?
> 
> I want to know why all these flu victims are dying from secondary diseases that are treatable when properly diagnosed. It's the CDC's responsibility to prepare our healthcare system to handle exactly this type of situation. I'm surprised you are so cavalier about preventable deaths.


I'll let someone else who has a higher tolerance for your kind of mindset answer. (shaking my head). Meantime, if you want to gloat and think you've "got me there" you go on ahead. Make your weekend.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> So if your child dies of a secondary kidney infection or sepsis, and it is not treated by the doctor, as long as they treated the flu you are OK with it?
> 
> I want to know why all these flu victims are dying from secondary diseases that are treatable when properly diagnosed. It's the CDC's responsibility to prepare our healthcare system to handle exactly this type of situation. I'm surprised you are so cavalier about preventable deaths.


Yup, infection, heart attack (I didn't realize how common this is), etc. if secondary to the flu and is considered a flu death.

Infections aren't always treatable, especially if not diagnosed timely. No one is being cavalier about anything, you just don't understand, and that's not my problem. Why don't you Google this information if you don't believe me? It's really no skin off anyone's nose, you want to be nasty? Educate yourself.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> Yup, infection, heart attack (I didn't realize how common this is), etc. is secondary to the flu and is considered a flu death.
> 
> Infections aren't always treatable, especially if not diagnosed timely. I'm not cavalier about anything, you just don't understand, and that's not my problem. Why don't you Google this information if you don't believe me? It's really no skin off my nose, you want to be nasty? Educate yourself.


Its so much easier to be ignorant.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Everyone already knows it.


You're talking crazy now. If doctors know, why so many deaths from secondary causes? 

And do you really think that most 20 or 30 something year old mothers know how to tell flu symptoms from secondary disease symptoms? If I came down with the flu and my kidneys started hurting, I would assume it was from the flu. And I bet the majority of the population would as well. How would I know if and when I needed to go to the ER?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> You're talking crazy now. If doctors know, why so many deaths from secondary causes?
> 
> And do you really think that most 20 or 30 something year old mothers know how to tell flu symptoms from secondary disease symptoms? If I came down with the flu and my kidneys started hurting, I would assume it was from the flu. And I bet the majority of the population would as well. How would I know if and when I needed to go to the ER?


LOL. Buh Bye.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Lisa in WA said:


> Its so much easier to be ignorant.


Apparently it is so much easier to remain ignorant.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> You're talking crazy now. If doctors know, *why so many deaths from secondary causes*?


The flu causes complications.
Not all can be treated successfully.



> And do you really think that most 20 or 30 something year old mothers know how to tell flu symptoms from secondary disease symptoms?


The flu comes *first.*
Your hint would be "secondary" symptoms.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> How would I know if and when I needed to go to the ER?


Who (besides you) said anyone had to go to the ER?
We're talking about flu deaths.
(Those are deaths brought on by the influenza virus, directly or indirectly)


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> You're talking crazy now. If doctors know, why so many deaths from secondary causes?
> 
> And do you really think that most 20 or 30 something year old mothers know how to tell flu symptoms from secondary disease symptoms? If I came down with the flu and my kidneys started hurting, I would assume it was from the flu. And I bet the majority of the population would as well. How would I know if and when I needed to go to the ER?


Because the CDC tells you?

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/takingcare.htm


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mreynolds said:


> There is a lot of healthy adult deaths too which makes it harder to pinpoint how any pedi and elderly deaths there will be. There was a woman, late thirties, in Houston this week that died. Never smoked or did drugs. The paper says she died on the way to the doctor. It's pretty scary stuff this time around.


Yes it is, this year is a pretty strange variety of influenza.
From what I've seen of the stats from the CDC though, the majority of the deaths are the very young and elderly, which IS common.

BUT...........my wife was just on Facebook  and a 'friend' of hers in RI had a son that came home from school with hives. Went to the pediatrician and that was the 3rd case. All of them tested positive for flu, but no other symptoms so far.
I googled and this is the same as one on the news from Nebraska.
http://people.com/human-interest/mom-seb-flu-hives-symptom-nebraska/
It may have happened in the past, but I don't remember anything like it.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Educate me, I thought pneumonia was a secondary problem but often see it listed as a cause of death?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

oneraddad said:


> Educate me, I thought pneumonia was a secondary problem but often see it listed as a cause of death?


Pneumonia can be a primary cause of death but not if it's acquired because of influenza. Influenza would be primary, with pneumonia secondary.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Read an article a few days ago that said 2 different universities have developed a vaccine to treat all strains of Type A influenza. Type A viruses are the most deadly, Type B not so much. This vaccine would only require a shot about 2 times throughout your life. This flu is strange. Our DIL is a nurse in an ER and they've had several cases come in but none of the ER workers have caught it yet. Maybe it just hasn't hit hard here yet but the schools say they have seen no increase in absentees.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Man sometimes I get a kick about you guys squabbling about stuff like this. When are we all finally going to recognize that nobody gets out alive? The flu is The Creators instrument to control the population level. We're too stupid to do it.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gilberte said:


> Man sometimes I get a kick about you guys squabbling about stuff like this. When are we all finally going to recognize that nobody gets out alive? The flu is The Creators instrument to control the population level. We're too stupid to do it.


Huh? No one has indicated, even remotely, that there is no death. The thing is to prevent early, avoidable death. 

Flu is viral, secondary infections are (usually) bacteria, both predate man.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

oneraddad said:


> Educate me, I thought pneumonia was a secondary problem but often see it listed as a cause of death?


They often don't list "flu" as the cause of death unless they actually test for the virus.
Pneumonia can come from other causes too.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

People enter the hospital for all kinds of reasons besides the flu and it's common for someone on life support from say a car wreck to have long term care and come down with Pneumonia and die. Then they say the person died of Pneumonia as if they could of saved them if that didn't happen.

I used to think when I was younger that Pneumonia was just something you caught like a flu or cold. But then old people around me started entering the hospital because they were old and eventually dying of Pneumonia.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

oneraddad said:


> People enter the hospital for all kinds of reasons besides the flu and it's common for someone on life support from say a car wreck to have long term care and come down with Pneumonia and die. Then they say the person died of Pneumonia as if they could of saved them if that didn't happen.
> 
> I used to think when I was younger that Pneumonia was just something you caught like a flu or cold. But then old people around me started entering the hospital because they were old and eventually dying of Pneumonia.


Pneumonia is something you catch, it can be viral or bacterial, primary or secondary, and yes, people die of it every day. 

"Car wreck" isn't a diagnosis-able condition, but pneumonia can be a sequelae of the injuries that occurred during a wreck.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> "Car wreck" isn't a diagnosis-able condition,


I guess for some people it isn't.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

I wrecked on my dirt bike and broke a few ribs that punctured my lung along with a bunch of other things. They were worried about Pneumonia, that's where car wreck came from.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

farmrbrown said:


> I guess for some people it isn't.


LOL. It's not, if there were broken bones, soft tissue injury, brain injury, etc... those are diagnose-able medical conditions that could result in pneumonia.

I'm less than impressed, based on your posts, a man of your self referenced superior intelligence should have realized that "car wreck" is not a medical condition.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

oneraddad said:


> I wrecked on my dirt bike and broke a few ribs that punctured my lung along with a bunch of other things. They were worried about Pneumonia, that's where car wreck came from.


So your diagnosis was a punctured lung, due to broken ribs sustained in dirt bike accident. The pneumonia worry was because the lung wasn't working to capacity and was more susceptible to infection.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

and if I died because they couldn't pump the blood/fluid out of my lung fast enough they'd list my death as Pneumonia, right ? I'm just trying to understand this secondary thing.

It seems lots of people go in the hospital for one thing and die of Pneumonia


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

oneraddad said:


> and if I died because they couldn't pump the blood/fluid out of my lung fast enough they'd list my death as Pneumonia, right ? I'm just trying to understand this secondary thing.
> 
> It seems lots of people go in the hospital for one thing and die of Pneumonia


No, because you wouldn't have had pneumonia at that point, it's due to a virus or bacteria (for the most part, there is aspiration pneumonia) and takes time to set in. The cause of death would have something to do with the compromised lung or loss of blood. 

Pneumonia can be a complication of many, many conditions.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> "car wreck" is not a medical condition.


 Even if a doctor tells ya yer gonna get in a wreck and mess yerself up (medically wise) if ya drive while stupefied?


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

gilberte said:


> Even if a doctor tells ya yer gonna get in a wreck and mess yerself up (medically wise) if ya drive while stupefied?



Are you lost ?


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Perhaps. Maybe it's the flu.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> LOL. It's not, if there were broken bones, soft tissue injury, brain injury, etc... those are diagnose-able medical conditions that could result in pneumonia.
> 
> I'm less than impressed, based on your posts, a man of your self referenced superior intelligence should have realized that "car wreck" is not a* medical condition.*


Oh, you want to refine that to a *medical* condition.
I seem to remember a thread where anyone who wasn't an M.D. was chastised for offering non-professional diagnoses, but at the risk of disappointing you again, I'll accept your specifics and volunteer the "medical diagnosis" of a car wreck would usually be 'blunt force trauma'.




Irish Pixie said:


> Pneumonia is something you catch, it can be viral or bacterial, primary or secondary, and yes, people die of it every day.
> 
> "Car wreck" isn't a *diagnosis-able condition,* but pneumonia can be a sequelae of the injuries that occurred during a wreck.


I was speaking of a layman's diagnosis.
Most people know a car wreck when they see one.
If your car is upside down in a ditch, the likely cause is.........car wreck.


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

I hope some of you aren't in the medical profession, because if you talk to your patients like you do here...that is a real wreck!!!


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Who (besides you) said anyone had to go to the ER?
> We're talking about flu deaths.
> (Those are deaths brought on by the influenza virus, directly or indirectly)


No, I specifically was talking about deaths resulting from secondary causes and not the flu. it seems to me that if you go to the hospital or doctor and are treated for the flu, but not the secondary disease and you die from the secondary disease, the doctor was negligent in not diagnosing and treating the secondary disease.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> No, I specifically was talking about deaths resulting from *secondary* causes and not the flu. it seems to me that if you go to the hospital or doctor and are treated for the flu, but not the *secondary* disease and you die from the secondary disease, the doctor was negligent in not diagnosing and treating the *secondary* disease.


"Secondary" diseases come *after* the first disease.
That means you may not have them when you see the Dr for the first condition (flu), but they are still brought on by the flu.

Let's say you cut your finger, go to the Dr for treatment and return home.

A couple of days later you notice redness and swelling but do nothing.

Then you spike a fever and die from blood poisoning.

Is it the Dr's fault he didn't treat *the infection you didn't have* when he saw you?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> "Secondary" diseases come *after* the first disease.
> That means you may not have them when you see the Dr for the first condition (flu), but they are still brought on by the flu.
> 
> Let's say you cut your finger, go to the Dr for treatment and return home.
> ...


Anyone can create an example that backs up their position.

How about this one. You tell your mechanic your car is running hot. He sees a pool of coolant under your car, so he adds coolant to your radiator, but he didn't think to fix the leak.

You go to the doctor and he is extremely busy from all the flu cases coming in. You tell him your symptoms and he gives you Tamiflu and tells you to go home and drink plenty of fluids and stay in bed. Because he is so busy he doesn't take the time to discuss your symptoms with you and make sure there is nothing else going on.

You go home and when you get worse, you believe the doctor that you just have the flu. Now the burden is on you. What do you do?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> *Anyone can* create an example that backs up their position.


You couldn't



MoonRiver said:


> How about this one. You tell your mechanic your car is running hot. He sees a pool of coolant under your car, so he adds coolant to your radiator, but *he didn't think to fix the leak*.


That's nothing at all like the context of this thread, but you know that.



MoonRiver said:


> You go to the doctor and he is extremely busy from all the flu cases coming in. You tell him your symptoms and he gives you Tamiflu and tells you to go home and drink plenty of fluids and stay in bed. Because he is so busy he doesn't take the time to discuss your symptoms with you and *make sure there is nothing else going on.*


How many times must it be repeated that often *there is nothing else going on* when you first see a Dr?

"Secondary" comes second, after, later, etc.
Sometimes no treatments will save the person anyway.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Anyone can create an example that backs up their position.
> 
> How about this one. You tell your mechanic your car is running hot. He sees a pool of coolant under your car, so he adds coolant to your radiator, but he didn't think to fix the leak.
> 
> ...



Do you actually have a point here?


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

Scary how bad it's gotten


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You couldn't
> That's nothing at all like the context of this thread, but you know that.
> 
> How many times must it be repeated that often *there is nothing else going on* when you first see a Dr?
> ...


You're changing the discussion to meet your criteria. I'm saying some of the people who have died had both the flu and a secondary disease when they were in the hospital.

"While influenza can indeed be deadly in rare cases, what most health experts fail to tell you is that these deaths are typically the result of secondary infections, not the flu virus itself. Importantly, research has highlighted the link between influenza and severe sepsis — a progressive disease process initiated by an aggressive, dysfunctional immune response to an infection in the bloodstream (which is why it's sometimes referred to as blood poisoning).

Symptoms of sepsis are often overlooked, even by health professionals, and without prompt treatment, the condition can be deadly. Unfortunately, conventional treatments often fail, and most hospitals have yet to embrace the use of intravenous (IV) vitamin C, hydrocortisone and thiamine,2 which has been shown to reduce sepsis mortality from 40 to a mere 8.5 percent."​
*Special Alert: The Alarming Reason Some People Die From the Flu*​


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## spud (Feb 3, 2007)

I'm a RN in Medical ICU in a top 10 ranked hospital. All respiratory infections that require ICU support come to our unit. I haven't seen one patient in our ICU with the flu without another health problem. Obesity and sleep apnea are the most common problems along with people that take immunosuppressants(steroids and chemo agents) for transplants or auto-immune problems.

The CDC can't be trusted, they, to the best of knowledge don't differentiate pneumonia deaths between viral and non-viral. Their propaganda is to push any agenda big pharma wants(more vaccines). We don't emphasize health and the best nutrition available to enable our bodies to combat any infection we might encounter. We emphasize forcing everyone to be treated like the sickest person out there. 

Most secondary problems of someone with a poor response to the flu are; low blood pressure, heart and kidney failure secondary to low blood pressure, bacterial or fungal lung infections,ARDS(Acute respiratory distress syndrome) and pneumothorax (air leaking into pleural space). There are others but these are the most common. 

Some people have problems with there lungs that they don't know about until they get a bad infection. I see very few people out there that understand and practice health and understand what constitutes good nutrition. One walk thru a supermarket and all I see for the most part is food that is empty calories.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

O


MoonRiver said:


> You're changing the discussion to meet your criteria. I'm saying some of the people who have died had both the flu and a secondary disease when they were in the hospital.
> 
> "While influenza can indeed be deadly in rare cases, what most health experts fail to tell you is that these deaths are typically the result of secondary infections, not the flu virus itself. Importantly, research has highlighted the link between influenza and severe sepsis — a progressive disease process initiated by an aggressive, dysfunctional immune response to an infection in the bloodstream (which is why it's sometimes referred to as blood poisoning).
> 
> ...


Oh FFS, you’re getting your “information” from Mercola the Quack. 
Whatever, dude. Enjoy your delusions.


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## spud (Feb 3, 2007)

oneraddad said:


> and if I died because they couldn't pump the blood/fluid out of my lung fast enough they'd list my death as Pneumonia, right ? I'm just trying to understand this secondary thing.
> 
> It seems lots of people go in the hospital for one thing and die of Pneumonia


When a lung doesn't fully inflate due to a persons pain, immobility or sedation, that lung or lungs tends to exhale less air and consequently, moisture accumulates in the lungs. That leads to fluid collection in the bases of the lungs which is a medium for bacteria to grow(other stuff too). 

So if you go to hospital with broken ribs, you are likely to stop walking and taking deep breaths. Remember, that will lead to that fluid accumulation in your lungs and by George, sooner or later, all those bacteria are just so happy to find that nice wet place to reproduce. Hope this helps you understand. Gettin up and moving is one of our best friends to prevent this problem, even if it takes some pain meds.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> *You're changing the discussion to meet your criteria*. I'm saying some of the people who have died had both the flu and a secondary disease when they were in the hospital.


Nope, you're changing it yourself by saying both always happen at the same time when really there is a sequential order. Hence the term "secondary infections"

You can pretend anything you like, but if that were true most likely it would be detected.
Even when those conditions are detected, it's often too late to save people whether they are treated or not. If they were in the hospital they are obviously being monitored and treated.



> what most health experts *fail to tell you* is that these deaths are typically the result of secondary infections, not the flu virus itself.


It would be pointless to tell many people, because no matter how many times you tell them something, *they still don't get it.*



spud said:


> *We don't emphasize health and the best nutrition available* to enable our bodies to combat any infection we might encounter. We emphasize forcing everyone to be treated like the sickest person out there.


Yeah, because no Dr ever said you need to eat more healthy foods and get plenty of exercise. 


If Dr's don't treat people "like they are the sickest" then they get accused of not doing enough, just like MoonRiver continues to do.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Nope, you're changing it yourself by saying both always happen at the same time when really there is a sequential order. Hence the term "secondary infections"
> 
> You can pretend anything you like, but if that were true most likely it would be detected.
> Even when those conditions are detected, it's often too late to save people whether they are treated or not. If they were in the hospital they are obviously being monitored and treated.
> ...


Now you are accusing me of saying something I never said to try to win the argument. I'm quoting an expert and you are making things up. Just shows how weak your case must be.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> Now you are accusing me of saying something I never said to try to win the argument. I'm quoting an expert and you are making things up. Just shows how weak your case must be.


Mercola is not an expert in anything... 

"Joseph Michael Mercola is an alternative medicine proponent, osteopathic physician, and web entrepreneur, who markets a variety of controversial dietary supplements and medical devices through his website, Mercola.com." Wikipedia


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

If Dr. MoonRiver says it's so, you people need to listen. He's the smartest Dr. he's ever met


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

This thread is a perfect example of how bickering starts, a legitimate article on a current medical issue is posted, someone doesn't understand it, someone else tries to explain, first person (or someone else) still doesn't understand it, knowledgeable people try again and are mocked or the post picked apart because someone didn't like a term used. And now it has fallen all the way into the outhouse slop by using the quack Mercola as a legit reference. 

Thread is dead of all factual information, may it rest in peace.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Oregon1986 said:


> Scary how bad it's gotten


There were 12 people admitted to the small hospital where my oldest daughter works yesterday due to flu, she said the local ER are overwhelmed.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

We know what strains of flu are spreading and we know which ones are the most deadly. We know which ones should be targeted with a new vaccine.

It doesn't matter because it takes 5 months to produce vaccine because congress hasn't full funded flu vaccine research. When the next pandemic hits and it will it could kill more Americans than a nuclear strike from Russia. Meanwhile congress ignores the problem. 

IMO congress is responsible for the deaths of many flu victims.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I got the flu last weekend. We were able to verify it early and start Tamiflu. I had hardly any symptoms while I got over the flu. I also had the flu shot and that is supposed to lessen symptoms too.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> This thread is a perfect example of how bickering starts, a legitimate article on a current medical issue is posted, someone doesn't understand it, someone else tries to explain, first person (or someone else) still doesn't understand it, *knowledgeable people try again and are mocked or the post picked apart because someone didn't like a term used. *And now it has fallen all the way into the outhouse slop by using the quack Mercola as a legit reference.
> 
> Thread is dead of all factual information, may it rest in peace.


Hear, Hear!
We didn't even get to the fact that at 53 pediatric deaths, this flu season is just a little about average, although the CDC fears it _*might*_ be as bad as the 2009-2010 season.

From the CNN link......



> The CDC has tracked pediatric deaths since 2004, he said, and "since that time, they've ranged from 37 to 171 during regular seasons; the highest was during the 2009 pandemic, when 358 pediatric deaths were reported."



But you're absolutely right.
Mocking, disrespectful and sarcastic remarks made to those who happen to have different opinions isn't something we should celebrate and encourage, is it?


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

fishhead said:


> It doesn't matter because it takes 5 months to produce vaccine because congress hasn't full funded flu vaccine research. When the next pandemic hits and it will it could kill more Americans than a nuclear strike from Russia. Meanwhile congress ignores the problem.
> 
> *IMO congress is responsible for the deaths of many flu victims*.


I am so tired of people blaming others. I am my ultimate responsibility. You, as an adult, are your ultimate responsibility. No, I am not saying go ahead and die, as some here would twist this to me saying. I am saying what can I, as an individual, knowing the shortcomings, do to take responsibility for myself and in turn, others?
Learning what you can, rather than pushing your view as the only way, as is done here too often, is really myopic and shallow minded (in my opinion). Statements against Mercola is a good example as he does have some good (researched by others) things to say and do.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> Now you are *accusing me of saying something I never said* to try to win the argument.


Show me specifically what you mean.
By that I mean *cut and paste the exact words* you're referring to instead of this vague allegation.



MoonRiver said:


> I'm quoting an expert


You're citing an internet quack who actually said the same thing everyone else has told you but you overlooked it:



MoonRiver said:


> Unfortunately, *conventional treatments often fail*


You just keep asking why *sick people* sometimes die, wanting to blame the Dr's.

Also, show me *exactly* what it is I "made up".


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

I spent some time with some doctor friends today and they said that SO many people are coming in with the flu but SO many people don't go to the doctor so there are probably 2-3x the number of cases that are reported (no one will report someone who stays home). One doctor friend said that the flu vaccine is not always going to stop you from getting the flu but more than likely it will keep you out of the hospital. Then a hospital administrator told us that they have been finding that those who are most seriously ill from the flu come in with the flu, maybe are treated, many are not (with Tamiflu), begin to get better, suddenly have trouble breathing and then they are hospitalized with the serious complications. THAT is scary!! 

What I find funny is this weekend, a number of friends of mine who are rabid anti-flu vaccine people have come down with the flu. One is complaining that she is 4 days into this and she still feels awful. My daughter came down with the flu Friday night - never had a fever, just the body aches, headache, extreme fatigue, etc. She had the vaccine and she just came in to the room where I am and she said "I'm feeling really good! I'm definitely going to be able to work tomorrow!" The vaccine does make a difference!!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Lots of old people die of pneumonia. I know of a guy that was 96 and died of pneumonia. But prior to that, he had heart trouble and had gotten a common cold. Could just as well been the flu, primary and pneumonia secondary.
On TV there was a child that died after getting the flu. Mother said that the rest of the family had gotten their flu shots, but this child didn't because he was sick when they got their shots. Makes me wonder. Had he been sick often, underlying health troubles?
Flu dehydrates you, weakens your immune system, making you a prime target for all sorts of infections. That is why doctors try to lessen the effects of the flu.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

MoonRiver said:


> So if your child dies of a secondary kidney infection or sepsis, and it is not treated by the doctor, as long as they treated the flu you are OK with it?
> 
> I want to know why all these flu victims are dying from secondary diseases that are treatable when properly diagnosed. It's the CDC's responsibility to prepare our healthcare system to handle exactly this type of situation. I'm surprised you are so cavalier about preventable deaths.



Last year, this week I got the flu, started getting better, then bam, I got pneumonia-Antibiotic resistant, I was in bed for a month. That is the kind of secondary infection that kills people.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Wolf mom said:


> I am so tired of people blaming others. I am my ultimate responsibility. You, as an adult, are your ultimate responsibility. No, I am not saying go ahead and die, as some here would twist this to me saying. I am saying what can I, as an individual, knowing the shortcomings, do to take responsibility for myself and in turn, others?
> Learning what you can, rather than pushing your view as the only way, as is done here too often, is really myopic and shallow minded (in my opinion). Statements against Mercola is a good example as he does have some good (researched by others) things to say and do.



I think I see where you are coming from, but no matter how responsible a person is, they are still at risk of getting a virus and from that virus a secondary infection developing. I guess I could blame the person who is sick coming into work and spreading the virus.

As far as Mercola, have to disagree.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

About Mercola:

https://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/mercola.html


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Lisa in WA said:


> About Mercola:
> 
> https://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/mercola.html


Mercola is an uber quack...


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

More Americans die while under a doctors care than die while being treated by "quacks". Just sayin.....


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> More Americans die while under a doctors care than die while being treated by "quacks". Just sayin.....



Really, first how do you know. And how many needless deaths come from people treated by quacks.

And yes since many people who die are already sick, probably most have seen a dr before dying. I kind of think there is no conspiract there.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

keenataz said:


> Really, first how do you know. And how many needless deaths come from people treated by quacks.
> 
> And yes since many people who die are already sick, probably most have seen a dr before dying. I kind of think there is no conspiract there.


A quick google search turns up pages of stats.... Here's some interesting reading: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-us-hospitals/


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

keenataz said:


> Really, first how do you know. And how many needless deaths come from people treated by quacks.
> 
> And yes since many people who die are already sick, probably most have seen a dr before dying. I kind of think there is no conspiract there.


And now you've done it... let the BS roll. Gah.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> A quick google search turns up pages of stats.... Here's some interesting reading: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-us-hospitals/


How many lives are saved in hospitals?

I know one needless death i sone too many, but I will put my faith in the medical community over an internet "expert" everyday.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I see some of you are attacking Mercola instead of responding to the information in the article I referenced. For those who refused to actually read the article and watch the videos here they are.

Video 1 is from the Mayo Clinic and titled *Influenza and Sepsis: Mayo Expert Describes Warning Signs of Severe Sepsis, Septic Shock*





Video 2 is by UK MD
*ITS SEPSIS, NOT FLU....HOW TO TELL*


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> I see some of you are attacking Mercola instead of responding to the information in the article I referenced. For those who refused to actually read the article and watch the videos here they are.
> 
> Video 1 is from the Mayo Clinic and titled *Influenza and Sepsis: Mayo Expert Describes Warning Signs of Severe Sepsis, Septic Shock*
> 
> ...



Can you explain what exactly your point is?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


> Can you explain what exactly your point is?


Just a guess here but maybe instead of shooting the messenger one might benefit by listening to the message?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Just a guess here but maybe instead of shooting the messenger one might benefit by listening to the message?


What IS the message exactLy?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


> What IS the message exactLy?


The message appears to have been about the secondary invaders causing deaths. (Sepsis) by reading the information presented I learned some stuff. Had I just blown it off due to the name on the article I would have remained ignorant. I like learning new stuff better.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> The message appears to have been about the secondary invaders causing deaths. (Sepsis) by reading the information presented I learned some stuff. Had I just blown it off due to the name on the article I would have remained ignorant. I like learning new stuff better.


Since everyone here agrees that secondary infections cause death and that sepsis is a very dangerous condtion that might be mistaken for other diseases, I’m not sure what he is going on about.
And when someone presents information that is from a reliable, science based source (like his last post)...that’s great too.
When someone presents information from a known crackpot who lines his pockets by spreading his misinformation to the gullible, then no. I won’t give those sources the time of day. Why ever would I?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


> Since everyone here agrees that secondary infections cause death and that sepsis is a very dangerous condtion that might be mistaken for other diseases, I’m not sure what he is going on about.
> And when someone presents information that is from a reliable, science based source (like his last post)...that’s great too.
> When someone presents information from a known crackpot who lines his pockets by spreading his misinformation to the gullible, then no. I won’t give those sources the time of day. Why ever would I?


Oddly enough his "crackpot" source presented the exact same info I found in numerous other more reputable sources. Johns Hopkins, Mayo clinic etc.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> The message appears to have been about the secondary invaders causing deaths. (Sepsis) by reading the information presented I learned some stuff. Had I just blown it off due to the name on the article I would have remained ignorant. I like learning new stuff better.


You want to follow this guy's advise?

*FDA Warnings*
In 2005, the FDA ordered Mercola and his Optimal Wellness Center to stop making illegal claims for products sold through his Web site [20]. The claims to which the FDA objected involved three products:


Living Fuel Rx, claimed to offer an "exceptional countermeasure" against cancer, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, autoimmune diseases, etc.
Tropical Traditions Virgin Coconut Oil, claimed to reduce the risk of heart disease and has beneficial effects against Crohn's disease, irritable bowel syndrome, and many infectious agents
Chlorella, claimed to fight cancer and normalize blood pressure.
In 2006, the FDA sent Mercola and his center a second warning that was based on product labels collected during an inspection at his facility and on claims made on the Optimum Wellness Center Web site [21]. This time the claims to which the FDA objected involve four products:


Vibrant Health Research Chlorella XP, claimed to "help to virtually eliminate your risk of developing cancer in the future."
Fresh Shores Extra Virgin Coconut Oil, claimed to reduce the risk of heart disease, cancer, and degenerative diseases.
Momentum Health Products Vitamin K2, possibly useful in treating certain kinds of cancer and Alzheimer's disease.
Momentum Health Products Cardio Essentials Nattokinase NSK-SD, claimed to be "a much safer and effective option than aspirin and other pharmaceutical agents to treating heart disease."
Snake oil

There are many more


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Oddly enough his "crackpot" source presented the exact same info I found in numerous other more reputable sources. Johns Hopkins, Mayo clinic etc.


So? Why not just go right to the reliable and science based sources than take your chances with the crackpot? Who also happens to have beliefs like vaccines are poison, sunscreen causes cancer, HIV is not the cause of AIDS, mammography is harmful, etc. with no evidence to support it and he conveniently sells his own cures and has been cited time and again for his lies.

If both a snake oil salesman and an MD both tell you that you have a cold, does that make the snake oil salesman equal to the physician in your mind?

Just because you read something in a Mercola article doesn’t mean you’re learning anything real.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Lisa in WA said:


> Can you explain what exactly your point is?


I was extremely clear. People are getting the flu and dying from pneumonia and sepsis. Doctors must do a better job of diagnosis and CDC needs to get on top of this. 

"A North Texas man is working to recover after losing both feet to amputation as part of complications from the flu.

The series of serious complications mark the latest example of a dangerous and deadly flu season nationwide and in Texas.

Brian Herndon, 51, was diagnosed with the flu on January 4. He was admitted to a Fort Worth hospital the following day with pneumonia and quickly went into septic shock."
http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/fort-worth-father-now-an-amputee-after-flu-complications/514719012​


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> I was extremely clear. People are getting the flu and dying from pneumonia and sepsis. Doctors must do a better job of diagnosis and CDC needs to get on top of this.
> 
> "A North Texas man is working to recover after losing both feet to amputation as part of complications from the flu.
> 
> ...


People are diagnosed with the flu like this man AND THEN they get sepsis or pneumonia. He didn’t have sepsis when he was diagnosed with flu, it developed secondarily. And the same thing happens with pneumonia. 
The CDC has posted (as I posted earlier) signs of sepsis on their site. 
I don’t know how this is still unclear to you. 
People are not going into doctor and being misdiagnosed with the flu when they actually have sepsis. They have the flu and THEN...sepsis or pneumonia develops secondarily.
Just like in your article. He came home after being diagnosed with the flu, subsequently developed symptoms of sepsis which his wife who is a nurse recognized and he went to the ER. 
Are some people misdiagnosed? I’m sure. But it’s not an epidemic of misdiagnoses and the CDC is doing it’s job here.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MoonRiver said:


> I was extremely clear. People are getting the flu and dying from pneumonia and sepsis. Doctors must do a better job of diagnosis and CDC needs to get on top of this.
> 
> "A North Texas man is working to recover after losing both feet to amputation as part of complications from the flu.
> 
> ...


And your solution? The only fool proof one is that everyone diagnosed with the flu be immediately admitted to a hospital where they can be monitored 24/7 by health care professsionals. And even then, secondary infections will take some lives.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

mmoetc said:


> And your solution? The only fool proof one is that everyone diagnosed with the flu be immediately admitted to a hospital where they can be monitored 24/7 by health care professsionals. And even then, secondary infections will take some lives.


How did you decide it was the only foolproof one?

I'm just saying CDC needs to do a much better job of informing the public as to the additional dangers of secondary infections resulting from the flu and that doctors need to do a much better job at recognizing and treating secondary infections.

I still don't understand the argument against this. It is basic science. First you need to clearly define the problem and the CDC and medical community has failed to do it. The problem is not the flu, but the flu PLUS the possibility of critical secondary infection. Once the problem is clearly defined, you develop the plan for diagnosis and treatment. Once the plan is designed, you implement it by getting the information to the medical community and by educating the public.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MoonRiver said:


> How did you decide it was the only foolproof one?
> 
> I'm just saying CDC needs to do a much better job of informing the public as to the additional dangers of secondary infections resulting from the flu and that doctors need to do a much better job at recognizing and treating secondary infections.
> 
> I still don't understand the argument against this. It is basic science. First you need to clearly define the problem and the CDC and medical community has failed to do it. The problem is not the flu, it is the flu and the critical possibility of additional secondary infection. Once the problem is clearly defined, you develop the plan for diagnosis and treatment. Once the plan is designed, you implement it by getting the information to the medical community and by educating the public.


Give me another fool proof plan or even evidence the CDC guidelines don’t address the issue. You assume a problem you haven’t proven. That some people have died of secondary infection isn’t proof they weren’t warned or even monitored for such things. Sometimes despite the best efforts and medical care people just die.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

fishhead said:


> We know what strains of flu are spreading and we know which ones are the most deadly. We know which ones should be targeted with a new vaccine.
> 
> It doesn't matter because it takes 5 months to produce vaccine because congress hasn't full funded flu vaccine research. When the next pandemic hits and it will it could kill more Americans than a nuclear strike from Russia. Meanwhile congress ignores the problem.
> 
> IMO congress is responsible for the deaths of many flu victims.


So predictable. A few years ago, when folks were dropping dead from Bird Flu in Asia and the government was warning people about a possible pandemic, numerous folks on this site were angry about the government over blowing this fake flu concern. Folks were angry the government was wasting money studying Avian Influenza all over the world. Then, when Avian Influenza, spread by wild birds, infected millions of hens and cost producers billions of dollars, folks wanted to blame Big Ag, without understanding two most basic facts: Backyard and free range flocks are at far greater risk and when HPAI (H7) jumps to humans it is often deadly.
Now that this new strain is killing people, some dare blame the government for not doing enough and are even suggesting that throwing more money at vaccine development somehow speeds up the culture process. Hades if you do, hades if you don't.
There is so much international work done controlling the spread of zoological diseases that never makes the news. Few people know the emergency preparations that exist nation wide in the event of a hoof and mouth disease outbreak. Few ever hear about the millions of tests and frequent quarantines that go on to limit the spread of plant and animal diseases.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Seems some are having difficulty understanding primary and secondary illnesses.
Let's say your house is infested with termites. Right away, you get the house treated with Chlorfenapyr. That stops the damage. But the structural damage is done. A wind may come along and blow the house down. A water bed may fall through the floor. Any number of things may ruin your house. But they are secondary to the original termite attack. The Orkin man can treat the termite problem, but there is no way to know what secondary problems will happen. Often nothing happens. When a house collapses due to termites, there may be a pre-existing condition that allows the house to collapse due to termites, like undersized joists. But, sometimes the termite damage is enough to bring on a collapse when other dangers present themselves.
The flu can kill those that were weak to begin with. The flu can weaken you to the point that any number of normally non fatal, secondary, ailments pushes you over the edge. 
I have been hearing lots of public service announcements on the radio talking about septis and the number that die from this secondary killer.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

I've been hearing for years and it was just on the news a couple minutes ago that the flu can kill you, maybe some don't pay attention but the word is out there.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I can understand Moonrivers point. To most people the flu is just no big deal. People go to work with the flu. Many employers expect them to be there at work if they are horizontal when they wake up. It's really more complicated than that though. You would even think that insurance companies would advertise what could happen just to save some extra money. 

People need to change their attitude about infectious diseases quite a bit imo.


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## hardrock (Jun 8, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> The message appears to have been about the secondary invaders causing deaths. (Sepsis) by reading the information presented I learned some stuff. Had I just blown it off due to the name on the article I would have remained ignorant. I like learning new stuff better.


Yes, YH, not gonna post the article, but an "Avid Hunter Looses Both Feet And 9 Fingers" from complications from the flu. Seems every strain attacks different age groups, and different aspects that makes them unique. This one is bad. We didn't get the flu shot and we're staying at the end of that long, dirt road.


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## spud (Feb 3, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> I was extremely clear. People are getting the flu and dying from pneumonia and sepsis. Doctors must do a better job of diagnosis and CDC needs to get on top of this.
> 
> "A North Texas man is working to recover after losing both feet to amputation as part of complications from the flu.
> 
> ...


Doctors are well aware of this. Most all these patients have an underlying problem known or unknown. The problem is the person's body quickly decompensate's which doctors have no control over. The interventions are just supportive. We tend to believe medicine and modern practices can overcome poor health or underlying health conditions. 

This North Texas man sounds like he had no underlying health problems, looks relatively young. He looks like he could have sleep apnea. People with sleep apnea are at his risk for decompensation from the flu. His loss of limbs is due to loss of blood pressure and fluid flow to distal extremities. It takes a tremendous amount of fluid 10 to 20 liters in some cases, to refill dilated blood vessels from an infection. Medications like levophed also constrict blood vessels which protect blood flow to vital organs but decrease flow to hands and feet. Med's like this used without the large amounts of fluid to refill blood vessels contribute to loss of limbs in these patients.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

spud said:


> Doctors are well aware of this. Most all these patients have an underlying problem known or unknown. The problem is the person's body quickly decompensate's which doctors have no control over. The interventions are just supportive. We tend to believe medicine and modern practices can overcome poor health or underlying health conditions.
> 
> This North Texas man sounds like he had no underlying health problems, looks relatively young. He looks like he could have sleep apnea. People with sleep apnea are at his risk for decompensation from the flu. His loss of limbs is due to loss of blood pressure and fluid flow to distal extremities. It takes a tremendous amount of fluid 10 to 20 liters in some cases, to refill dilated blood vessels from an infection. Medications like levophed also constrict blood vessels which protect blood flow to vital organs but decrease flow to hands and feet. Med's like this used without the large amounts of fluid to refill blood vessels contribute to loss of limbs in these patients.


So you're saying that with the huge numbers of flu victims flooding doctor's offices and emergency rooms, that doctors are taking the time to do a thorough examination of each patient to ensure they are not showing symptoms of sepsis or pneumonia? And that they are giving flu patients clear instructions about what to do if they observe sepsis or pneumonia symptoms upon returning home, as well as a fact sheet of sepsis and pneumonia symptoms?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

From https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...outside-high-risk-groups-dying-flu/326789002/
*



Why are people outside high-risk groups dying from the flu?

Click to expand...

*


> As such, reports of otherwise healthy or young people dying from the infection are flying around. The stories have been shocking, especially because many of these people were outside the high-risk groups for flu-related death that include pregnant women, small children and the elderly.





> Here are some reasons why otherwise healthy people can die from the flu.
> *Pneumonia ...*
> *Heart Attack...*
> *Sepsis ...*


Until I see documentation to the contrary, I believe the medical community is not doing everything they should be doing to advise the public about the dangers of secondary diseases of the flu.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

USAToday

As I posted earlier, we keep hearing this is the worst flu season in years, but the stats don't seem to agree.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

spud said:


> Doctors are well aware of this. Most all these patients have an underlying problem known or unknown. The problem is the person's body quickly decompensate's which doctors have no control over. The interventions are just supportive. We tend to believe medicine and modern practices can overcome poor health or underlying health conditions.
> 
> This North Texas man sounds like he had no underlying health problems, looks relatively young. He looks like he could have sleep apnea. People with sleep apnea are at his risk for decompensation from the flu. His loss of limbs is due to loss of blood pressure and fluid flow to distal extremities. It takes a tremendous amount of fluid 10 to 20 liters in some cases, to refill dilated blood vessels from an infection. Medications like levophed also constrict blood vessels which protect blood flow to vital organs but decrease flow to hands and feet. Med's like this used without the large amounts of fluid to refill blood vessels contribute to loss of limbs in these patients.


Trying to educate some people, especially those that think Mercola and naturalnews are a real medical sites, is like trying to teach a pig to sing... 

It's enough to let rational people know what's going on and to point them in the right direction.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> USAToday
> 
> As I posted earlier, we keep hearing this is the worst flu season in years, but the stats don't seem to agree.


You conveniently left off the narrative, I'm sure it was accidental. 

"In the most recent week data were available, 10% of deaths in the nation were from influenza and pneumonia. The agency does not keep an exact count of adult flu deaths but closely tracks child deaths. In the previous severe flu season, in 2014-2015, 148 children died.

This flu season is more than 11 weeks old, and the average flu season lasts 16 weeks, though some go for as long as 20 weeks. 

More details from the latest report: 

• Since this flu season started, Americans have been hospitalized for the illness at a rate of 59.9 per 100,000 people — the highest rate recorded by this point in a recent flu season and a level not reached until the end of the previous severe season, 2014-2015.

• Hospitalization rates remained unusually high among adults ages 50 to 64, a group typically less likely to get seriously ill than the very young and very old. 

• 7.7% of visits to health care providers in the week ending Feb. 3 were for flu-like illnesses, a weekly intensity level matching that in the swine flu pandemic of 2009."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/02/09/flu-season-deaths-increase/322928002/


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## spud (Feb 3, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> So you're saying that with the huge numbers of flu victims flooding doctor's offices and emergency rooms, that doctors are taking the time to do a thorough examination of each patient to ensure they are not showing symptoms of sepsis or pneumonia? And that they are giving flu patients clear instructions about what to do if they observe sepsis or pneumonia symptoms upon returning home, as well as a fact sheet of sepsis and pneumonia symptoms?


Sepsis and pneumonia come after a poor response to the flu. A poor response to the flu is shortness of breath, extreme fever, lethargy. Respiratory distress that requires mechanical ventilation is a severe poor response that no one can predict unless it has happened in the past. 
As a nurse that has worked in a Medical ICU for the past 14 years, I repeat, I have yet see one patient on a mechanical ventilator from the flu that didn't have another health condition.
For example, one family of four all got the flu, the dad, who was a big guy, about 350 in his thirties was the only one that ended up in the hospital. He had no medical history expect for being obese. When he got the flu, his respiratory distress was so severe that he needed the breathing tube and mechanical ventilation. He also was in sick long enough on the vent that he needed a trach. So ya see, being obese caused some kind of change in his lungs(likely pulmonary hypertension) that was not diagnosed. A person's severe symptoms that present themselves will let the truth be know.
FYI, I don't believe in the flu shot, never had one my entire life and yet to have a severe reaction to the flu. There are auto-immune reactions that get little publicity (no surprise there) from vaccines that put you at risk for severe reaction to the flu. Here is an article from the Journal of Immunotherapy that discusses that.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25428645


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## spud (Feb 3, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> Trying to educate some people, especially those that think Mercola and naturalnews are a real medical sites, is like trying to teach a pig to sing...
> 
> It's enough to let rational people know what's going on and to point them in the right direction.


I keep an open mind on what consists of real medical knowledge that I value and respect. For example, the AMA and all major dietary agency's have touted a high carb low saturated fat diet since the sixties. This info was wrong, way wrong and Ancel Keyes the major player who promoted it back then had ties to big ag and his research was inaccurate and fraudulent to boot. Dr Weston Price, a dentist who did simple observation of people when he traveled the world to research nutrition. His results have stood the test of time and are more relevant than ever. 
I find very little to argue with Dr Mercola's view, except that no one wants to spend the money on the scientific research to validate it. Does that make it wrong? I think not, for centuries, cultures have learned many ways to treat and cure different problems that they came across.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> You conveniently left off the narrative, I'm sure it was accidental.


I didn't leave off anything. I linked to the article which is the proper way to reference copyrighted material. 

There was nothing in the article that refuted the points I raised. It may turn out that this is the worst flu season in many years, but so far it isn't even close.

Mercola interviews some of the top medical researchers in the world. Sites like Mercola are where new research is disseminated years before it reaches the general public. Most practicing MDs spend very little time reading medical studies and are years behind current research. For example, several doctors are successfully treating Alzheimers, but ask 100 doctors how to treat it and see what they say. I bet most will name a drug(s), even though there is no drug that cures Alzheimers.


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## HeavyHauler (Dec 21, 2017)

Irish Pixie said:


> Pneumonia is something you catch, it can be viral or bacterial, primary or secondary, and yes, people die of it every day.
> 
> "Car wreck" isn't a diagnosis-able condition, but pneumonia can be a sequelae of the injuries that occurred during a wreck.


My little brother was killed in a head on collision with a semi. Cause of death? The semi plowed into him.

Pretty diagnosis-able.

Whether he had the flu or pneumonia is irrelevant.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HeavyHauler said:


> My little brother was killed in a head on collision with a semi. Cause of death? The semi plowed into him.
> 
> Pretty diagnosis-able.
> 
> Whether he had the flu or pneumonia is irrelevant.


I'm sorry for your loss. 

Your brother did not die from a "car crash", your brother died due to the medical injuries sustained in said car crash. More understandable? No? Google "diagnosis", or not. It's all up to you if you truly want to be educated.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> I didn't leave off anything. I linked to the article which is the proper way to reference copyrighted material.
> 
> There was nothing in the article that refuted the points I raised. It may turn out that this is the worst flu season in many years, but so far it isn't even close.
> 
> Mercola interviews some of the top medical researchers in the world. Sites like Mercola are where new research is disseminated years before it reaches the general public. Most practicing MDs spend very little time reading medical studies and are years behind current research. For example, several doctors are successfully treating Alzheimers, but ask 100 doctors how to treat it and see what they say. I bet most will name a drug(s), even though there is no drug that cures Alzheimers.


https://www.google.com/search?q=CDC...me..69i57j0.5088j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

spud said:


> I keep an open mind on what consists of real medical knowledge that I value and respect. For example, the AMA and all major dietary agency's have touted a high carb low saturated fat diet since the sixties. This info was wrong, way wrong and Ancel Keyes the major player who promoted it back then had ties to big ag and his research was inaccurate and fraudulent to boot. Dr Weston Price, a dentist who did simple observation of people when he traveled the world to research nutrition. His results have stood the test of time and are more relevant than ever.
> I find very little to argue with Dr Mercola's view, except that no one wants to spend the money on the scientific research to validate it. Does that make it wrong? I think not, for centuries, cultures have learned many ways to treat and cure different problems that they came across.


I thought due to your medical background you'd understand what Mercola is. My mistake, sorry.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

MoonRiver said:


> I didn't leave off anything. I linked to the article which is the proper way to reference copyrighted material.
> 
> There was nothing in the article that refuted the points I raised. It may turn out that this is the worst flu season in many years, but so far it isn't even close.
> 
> Mercola interviews some of the top medical researchers in the world. Sites like Mercola are where new research is disseminated years before it reaches the general public. Most practicing MDs spend very little time reading medical studies and are years behind current research. For example, several doctors are successfully treating Alzheimers, but ask 100 doctors how to treat it and see what they say. I bet most will name a drug(s), *even though there is no drug that cures Alzheimers.*


Their are any number of drugs that will "cure" Alzheimer's..... Unfortunately they kill the patient in the process.


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## spud (Feb 3, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> I thought due to your medical background you'd understand what Mercola is. My mistake, sorry.


No need to be sorry, I'm a big boy


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

spud said:


> Sepsis and pneumonia come after a poor response to the flu. A poor response to the flu is shortness of breath, extreme fever, lethargy. Respiratory distress that requires mechanical ventilation is a severe poor response that no one can predict unless it has happened in the past.
> As a nurse that has worked in a Medical ICU for the past 14 years, I repeat, I have yet see one patient on a mechanical ventilator from the flu that didn't have another health condition.
> For example, one family of four all got the flu, the dad, who was a big guy, about 350 in his thirties was the only one that ended up in the hospital. He had no medical history expect for being obese. When he got the flu, his respiratory distress was so severe that he needed the breathing tube and mechanical ventilation. He also was in sick long enough on the vent that he needed a trach. So ya see, being obese caused some kind of change in his lungs(likely pulmonary hypertension) that was not diagnosed. A person's severe symptoms that present themselves will let the truth be know.
> FYI, I don't believe in the flu shot, never had one my entire life and yet to have a severe reaction to the flu. There are auto-immune reactions that get little publicity (no surprise there) from vaccines that put you at risk for severe reaction to the flu. Here is an article from the Journal of Immunotherapy that discusses that.
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25428645


A few things about the anti vax quack “researchers” in the link for which we only see the abstract and nothing peer reviewed.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/tag/lucija-tomljenovic/

https://sciblogs.co.nz/diplomaticim...scientific-garbage-from-tomljenovic-and-shaw/

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/lif...e-studies-discredited-by-who/article23302328/


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Lisa in WA said:


> A few things about the anti vax quack “researchers” in the link for which we only see the abstract and nothing peer reviewed.
> 
> https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/tag/lucija-tomljenovic/
> 
> ...



It's a losing fight. Anti vaxxers just won't be convinced and that is their choice. Don't likeit and don't agree with it, but I have given up the fight.

They would rather believe info from websites that are trying to sell them something, rather AMA or Mayo Clinic.

Of of course they will believe : My best friends sister's cousin's hairdresser had a baby who got vaccinated at 2 months and was never the same".


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Their are any number of drugs that will "cure" Alzheimer's..... Unfortunately they kill the patient in the process.


To the best of my knowledge, there are no drugs that cure Alzheimer's. Could you name 1 or 2?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Heroine... Arsenic.... Vinegar.... Salt.... Nicotine sulphate.... Lye.... Any number of things taken in large enough doses will absolutely stop Alzheimer's in it tracks. The unfortunate side affect being that in those doses they also kill the patient.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

I had to go to the dentist, and the tech had the flu. Swore she couldn't have the flu because she'd had a flu shot. when I tried explaining how that works, she just told me, it's a cold. Well, heck, health care professionals!! Besides, a cold is as easy to transmit as the flu. This is a place where they stick their fingers in your mouth. Freaked me out. Yesterday, I had to go to the pharmacy for my ex-wife's prescriptions for...you know it, the flu. Parking lot, inside the door, at the counter, at the cash register, the whole place tasted of death and disease. Stopped by the gas station, everybody there hacking and stopped up. Come back, get my little dog from the flu-ridden dogsitter, bring her home at arm's length, and give her a bath. 

It's so bad, I'm almost afraid to eat after myself!! These are the times that try men's souls. And whatnot. Seriously freaks me out. I can't remember the last time I went out 2 days in a row like this and was afraid to go out, and justified in my concerns.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

Clem said:


> I had to go to the dentist, and the tech had the flu. Swore she couldn't have the flu because she'd had a flu shot. when I tried explaining how that works, she just told me, it's a cold. Well, heck, health care professionals!! Besides, a cold is as easy to transmit as the flu. This is a place where they stick their fingers in your mouth. Freaked me out. Yesterday, I had to go to the pharmacy for my ex-wife's prescriptions for...you know it, the flu. Parking lot, inside the door, at the counter, at the cash register, the whole place tasted of death and disease. Stopped by the gas station, everybody there hacking and stopped up. Come back, get my little dog from the flu-ridden dogsitter, bring her home at arm's length, and give her a bath.
> 
> It's so bad, I'm almost afraid to eat after myself!! These are the times that try men's souls. And whatnot. Seriously freaks me out. I can't remember the last time I went out 2 days in a row like this and was afraid to go out, and justified in my concerns.


I'd be carrying hand sanitizer and wearing a mask


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## HeavyHauler (Dec 21, 2017)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm sorry for your loss.
> 
> Your brother did not die from a "car crash", your brother died due to the medical injuries sustained in said car crash. More understandable? No? Google "diagnosis", or not. It's all up to you if you truly want to be educated.


What gave him those injuries? The crash.

I know how it works, but thanks for the advice.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HeavyHauler said:


> What gave him those injuries? The crash.
> 
> I know how it works, but thanks for the advice.


You're a "heavy hauler" and not in the medical field, huh? I can tell... I can also tell immediately that you aren't going to Google and educate. Sigh.


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## HeavyHauler (Dec 21, 2017)

Irish Pixie said:


> You're a "heavy hauler" and not in the medical field, huh? I can tell... I can also tell immediately that you aren't going to Google and educate. Sigh.


You make a lot of assumptions based on nothing.

Thanks for judging though!


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