# Your openion please



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Me and my boy were talking about guns, open carry and the like. I asked him his openion about a thought I had had. That being

Supposeing I was asleep when a couple of guys busted into my house. I keep a double barrel shotgun on my dresser. Suppos it took 10 seconds to get through the door, and that gave me time to get the gun cocked just as they got in and one of them entered the bedroom where I was sleeping. I AM a light sleeper. Assuming I shot him, and got a shot at the back of the other as he was trying to leave the house. How much trouble would I be in for shooting the second??

Secondly. Suppose I shot the second in the legs to keep him in the house from the back but didn't kill him. Would I be sued out of everything I own and more??


----------



## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Who knows.

I remember listening to a 911 call a few years ago.

Nan calls in to report his wife and kids are hiding in an upstairs closet and the house has a home invasion in progress.

So the call is between operator and husband. But, he has another phone on the other ear, so you can't hear what the wife is saying but you can hear what the husband is saying to her.

The 911 operator was giving him instructions to give her, and praise God the husband blew off what she was telling him to tell his wife. That husband stayed calm talked his wife through getting the gun, getting the kids into the closet with her, told her exactly. What to do, to stay calm, and to start shooting as soon as the guy found them and opened the closet. She did. And, the hubby told her to keep shooting. She did.

The guy got shot multiple times and was still able to flee the scene. The husband saved his wife and kids with what he said. I believe it was God's providence and grace that put him in between her and a 911 operator that day.

The operator no doubt was following the rules for what to say, but if thecwife had done what the 911 people wanted, I think it might have ended very differently for yercabd those kids.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

No, of course not.
You are sometimes not even aware of what you are doing when you are awakened, we all know that about you. 
How you managed to get them both, and even reload a 2nd time to finish off the last one, in a sleepy daze, we'll never know.......


----------



## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

If someone is leaving, or trying to, you get into a different world than if they are an actual threat to you. It can in fact turn into you being the bad guy (legally) at that point, and being in legal trouble.

Each state is different, but I believe the point about them trying to leave and no longer being a threat is a fairly common concept. Check a local forum of state gun owners and shooters and see what they have for legal reference. Taking legal advice off the internet is shaky ground, but is a starting point to seeking further info or just know the right question to ask or how to ask it.

If somebody on the internet gives you legal advice, ask them to give you specfic references for where they got their information. Its not that difficult to find out.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

A Judge once told me, "Dead men tell no tales".


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

While dead men tell no tales, forensics do!!!!!!!!
Of course you could be safe it you were in a small burp in the road town with Barney Fife as the forensics expert.
Different states have different laws and I find it best to know the laws in *YOUR STATE* or have a route for to flee.

 Al


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

The bottom line of what he was telling me was that if you ever have to shoot at someone you shoot to kill or not at all.


----------



## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

here's what my potentially flawed education in gun shooting, safety, and management says...

how long you've been awake is not an issue, normally. two guys entered your bedroom and you fired. all good for you, all bad for the intruders. 

if you got the second guy in the back but they are still in your bedroom, in the doorway, and there is no evidence you chased them down, all good for you. The truth is that you were bleary eyed, scared for your life, and maybe worried he wasn't taking your wife with him, :sing: You had two shots (I'm assuming a double barrel shotgun), you took both shots in a second, and you can't help it if bad guy2 was turning away so you got him in the back. It all happened too fast. 

when you chase them down the hall or the stairs then you get on shaky ground. They are still in your house and clearly committing a crime, some states might give you a pass, but the rules of the old west still come into play. Shooting a guy in the back is going to be a problem for you. 

If the guy is running towards an area where you reasonably believe your kids may be, then it gets easier to defend a shooting in the back. If you know for a fact your kids are in a bedroom he is heading to, even better defense. Just understand that the burden of proof has shifted considerably against you.

depending on your jurisdiction, if you shoot someone in your house in their back or front, the cop and DA response is going to range from immediate arrest while they sort out the details (typical in northern VA) to a press conference where they applaud you for ridding the community of a perp. If the lives of self or loved ones are at risk, you do what you gotta do and suffer thru with what the cops are going to do. 

If it was a situation where I had plenty of time to weigh the circumstances and could decide on no shot because there is not sufficient danger to self or loved ones, I would not take the shot. But never having been in that situation, it's hard to say how I would react. 

With a pistol, if you do shoot, aim for the center of the chest and fire two rounds. If that doesn't drop him, aim for the cranial-occular cavity and take one more shot, if you see no immediate reaction, shoot again and repeat as necessary. Do NOT do what cops do and keep shooting until you run out of bullets. I do lots of practice with moving and turning targets to drill that system into my head so that I'll hopefully remember it in a battle I hope I never have. This system is not aiming to kill, it is aiming to end a potentially deadly situation and is far more defensible in court. 

Someone else will have to comment on targeting with a shot gun. I suppose it matters if you have 1, 2, or 5 rounds.


----------



## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

JJ Grandits said:


> The bottom line of what he was telling me was that if you ever have to shoot at someone you shoot to kill or not at all.


that's bad advice. You don't fire warning shots and you don't try to shoot in the leg, for instance, hoping to discourage the perp. But you also don't fire with the intent to kill. Two shots in the thoracic cavity may very well end up being kill shots, but that isn't your intent. Thoracic cavity is the largest target and a sucking chest wound is most likely to end the deadly situation without it necessarily being a kill shot. A shot to the head may be considered an execution by your local DA, no matter how justified you may have been in shooting at the perp.


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

It all boils down to your state laws.

In Louisiana, if he's in your house, it doesn't matter if he's flying, flopping or foaming at the mouth, you can shoot him.

Now, you follow him out of that house and shoot him running away down a public street, it's a whole 'nuther ballgame...


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

you shoot to stop , not to kill but the research tells us COM is our best bet of hitting something to generate a stop

because if you don't take the COM (center of mass shot) , the argument can be made that you weren't actually in fear of your life , making an argument that you may not have been justified 

anything not hitting COM you pass of as a stress miss

generally shooting at fleeing people is bad , even though it was very common practice by police a hundred or more years ago 

however they have found people that have turned to flee so fast that the trigger was being pressed , before the turn to flee was made but the bullet stuck post turn, range will likely be a determining factor in this judgment

especially when you only have 2 rounds you shoot for the best stop you can , there have been adult men who have taken 2 12 ga slugs from very close range 3 yards that were not fully stopped and still made it several yards before collapsing 


I think the best advice is learn your states law adjust that to what you can live with , but know the law and what you need to say and do after the fact. 
if you have one assailant fire till the threat stops or you run out of ammo then move to cover and reload if that is an option if not run if possible
if you have more than one assistant give each a controlled pair as ammo allows then recheck

if your not practicing transitioning to multiple targets and controlled pairs you may want to brush up on those


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JJ Grandits said:


> The bottom line of what he was telling me was that if you ever have to shoot at someone you shoot to kill or not at all.


People will give bad advice like that all the time because it sounds "tough"

The ONLY correct answer is learn the deadly force statutes for your state, and don't be stupid.

Read them yourself, and don't just ask anyone, especially a cop


----------



## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> People will give bad advice like that all the time because it sounds "tough"
> 
> The ONLY correct answer is learn the deadly force statutes for your state, and don't be stupid.
> 
> Read them yourself, and don't just ask anyone, especially a cop


excellent advice. The weird thing is that some people think asking a cop's opinion gives them word of God truth. I don't understand how someone can be that stupid.


----------



## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

DEKE01 said:


> *If it was a situation where I had plenty of time to weigh the circumstances and could decide on no shot because there is not sufficient danger to self or loved ones, I would not take the shot.* But never having been in that situation, it's hard to say how I would react.


I bolded what I think is crucial and here's my take on it; I'm pretty cheap, worked hard for all my stuff; 23 years Army, now working for the DoD. I've accumulated some nice guns, nice house in the country and 80 acres. Got some retirement savings, kids college fund etc. 

I want to keep all of it. I will only shoot a threat, and only to "stop" the threat. 

Popping the wrong person, or an unarmed intruder could put all that at risk, even in a Castle Doctrine state. Remember, I said I'm cheap, IF I'm involved in a shooting that's even remotely iffy there's a good chance a lawyer is going to be involved. They cost money, way more money than my TV, stereo or other assorted stuff. The more iffy, the more expensive it's going to be. That "anybody in my house at 0200 is a target" sounds cool on a gun board, but when that someone is a 17 year old chucklehead with a record, that his parents and friends say "he was turning his life around", you're going to end up in court. There's a good chance you'll get through the criminal prosecution, but then there could be a civil suit to get through. Suddenly you'll note that the legal fees have now far surpassed the cost of that easily replaceable chit the 17 year old would have made off with and your getting jealous of your lawyers new car (which you're paying for BTW). 

That's why I'm IDing a potential target as a threat before pulling a trigger. Not for any misplaced love for my fellow man, but to protect my chit. 

Secondly, I would get a gun with higher capacity. I know what Joe Biden says, but I've run a lot of shotgun stages in matches and training, and I'm often amazed at my ability to miss with a shotgun up close before the pattern opens (HD distances). I've seen some CAS guys run doubles amazingly fast, but they had ammo holders that placed 2 rds together, and polished chambers, and practiced reloading a lot!. 

YMMV,

Chuck


----------



## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Agreed Chuck. I've read somewhere recently that a typical successful defense for a justified shooting runs about $100K. It might never get to court and still easily be $10 - $25K. If it is one of the "iffy" cases, not it your eyes but in the eyes of some DA who is trying to make a name for himself, it can get WAAAAAAAY more expensive. On top of the money, it can go on for years in and out of the court system creating an emotional toll and stopping you from getting on with your life. So even if you win, you lose.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> People will give bad advice like that all the time because it sounds "tough"
> 
> The ONLY correct answer is learn the deadly force statutes for your state, and don't be stupid.
> 
> Read them yourself, and don't just ask anyone, especially a cop



There have been several scenario's like this here locally in the beautiful socialist state of New York. In those cases the shootings were ruled justified. Sounding "tough" has nothing to do with it. You break into my house where myself, my wife, my daughter and my son are sleeping, and I will fear for my life and theirs. If someone is so hell bent and crazed that they ignore the dogs, my use of deadly force is the only option. This is not the time for some sort of legal or moral discussion.

Tell me, What would you do? I'd love to hear it.


----------



## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

JJ Grandits said:


> There have been several scenario's like this here locally in the beautiful socialist state of New York. In those cases the shootings were ruled justified. Sounding "tough" has nothing to do with it. You break into my house where myself, my wife, my daughter and my son are sleeping, and I will fear for my life and theirs. If someone is so hell bent and crazed that they ignore the dogs, my use of deadly force is the only option. This is not the time for some sort of legal or moral discussion.
> 
> Tell me, What would you do? I'd love to hear it.



JJ, I don't think anybody here has said you can't shoot to stop a "threat", but this particular scenario started with this (bold is mine):



FarmboyBill said:


> Assuming I shot him, and *got a shot at the back of the other as he was trying to leave the house*. How much trouble would I be in for shooting the second??
> 
> Secondly. Suppose I shot the second in the legs *to keep him in the house from the back *but didn't kill him. Would I be sued out of everything I own and more??


It's hard in a lot of folks to believe this was an act of self defense. Your response of "Dead men tell no tales" sounds an awful lot like being in favor of shooting someone that appears not only not to be a threat, but is trying to get the heck out of Dodge.

Does it not??

Chuck


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

The problem is that if you shoot and wound an intruder the chances are very good that he will sue you for all your worth and in today's world, probably win. 

Don't get me wrong. Im not a "kill them all and let God sort it out" sort of guy. However in a threatening situation, inside my own house, when loved ones are present, I would rather overreact then under react.


----------



## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

FarmboyBill said:


> Me and my boy were talking about guns, open carry and the like. I asked him his openion about a thought I had had. That being
> 
> Supposeing I was asleep when a couple of guys busted into my house. I keep a double barrel shotgun on my dresser. Suppos it took 10 seconds to get through the door, and that gave me time to get the gun cocked just as they got in and one of them entered the bedroom where I was sleeping. I AM a light sleeper. Assuming I shot him, and got a shot at the back of the other as he was trying to leave the house. How much trouble would I be in for shooting the second??
> 
> Secondly. Suppose I shot the second in the legs to keep him in the house from the back but didn't kill him. Would I be sued out of everything I own and more??


 Good question, most folks really don't know the law till its too late and someone like yourself finds himself in jail.
Why the intruder has laws on his side is beyond me.
But you are required to retreat and yell that you have a gun. And know beyond any expectation that your life is in danger. If the intruder is not armed, the homeowner is now on trial for manslaughter, facing several years in jail.
 Your absolute best bet Bill? Take a concealed carry class, they will teach you all you need to know about the laws that can help you and yours.


----------



## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

JJ Grandits said:


> The problem is that if you shoot and wound an intruder the chances are very good that he will sue you for all your worth and in today's world, probably win.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. Im not a "kill them all and let God sort it out" sort of guy. However in a threatening situation, inside my own house, when loved ones are present, I would rather overreact then under react.


If what you fear is a lawsuit, killing the guy isn't going to help. OJ Simpson killed 2 people and still got sued and lost. I know, that was a different situation, but even in a home invasion, in many cases the dead intruder's family has just as much right to sue as a merely wounded home intruder. Though some states rightly limit civil liability for justified homicide as defined within their castle law. 

And don't get me wrong. If life is at risk, fire for effect, baby. I'll not shed a single tear for a man killed while robbing a home. 

In a story, last year I think, the home owner had laid in wait to kill a young man and his girlfriend when they broke into the house a second or third time. I knew the homeowner was in the wrong and was going to lose in court. He was relying on a wrong interpretation of what I see written in HT so often that if they are in your house you can kill at will. There are limitations to that concept, even in a castle doctrine state. Even though it was not a justifiable homicide, I still don't' care one whit that the burglar was shot dead. He was a criminal committing a crime and paid the ultimate price. Too bad for him.


----------



## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Marshloft said:


> Good question, most folks really don't know the law till its too late and someone like yourself finds himself in jail.
> Why the intruder has laws on his side is beyond me.
> But you are required to retreat and yell that you have a gun. And know beyond any expectation that your life is in danger. If the intruder is not armed, the homeowner is now on trial for manslaughter, facing several years in jail.
> Your absolute best bet Bill? Take a concealed carry class, they will teach you all you need to know about the laws that can help you and yours.


state laws vary. some states have a no duty to retreat law and some states have a castle law, some have neither and some have both. In no retreat and castle states, you don't have to retreat and you don't have to announce you have a gun. In fact, I've never heard of a law that required a verbal warning. If anyone knows of a state where that is true, please share.

I do encourage people to take CCW classes; it is a good starting point. I've had several of those classes. But don't rely exclusively on your instructor's knowledge of your state law. In my experience, the wisdom and knowledge of the instructors varies greatly. Google is your friend, look up your state laws. It isn't that difficult to go to the source and read for yourself. I just googled, "Florida duty to retreat" and the first link produced this:

_776.012&#8195;Use or threatened use of force in defense of person.&#8212;
(1)&#8195;A person is justified in using or threatening to use force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other&#8217;s imminent use of unlawful force. A person who uses or threatens to use force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat before using or threatening to use such force.
(2)&#8195;A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be._

"florida castle law" produced this on the 5th link:

776.013&#8195;Home protection; use or threatened use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.&#8212;
(1)&#8195;A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using or threatening to use defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a)&#8195;The person against whom the defensive force was used or threatened was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person&#8217;s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b)&#8195;The person who uses or threatens to use defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2)&#8195;The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a)&#8195;The person against whom the defensive force is used or threatened has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b)&#8195;The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used or threatened; or
(c)&#8195;The person who uses or threatens to use defensive force is engaged in a criminal activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further a criminal activity; or
(d)&#8195;The person against whom the defensive force is used or threatened is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using or threatening to use force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(3)&#8195;A person who is attacked in his or her dwelling, residence, or vehicle has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and use or threaten to use force, including deadly force, if he or she uses or threatens to use force in accordance with s. 776.012(1) or (2) or s. 776.031(1) or (2).
(4)&#8195;A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person&#8217;s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5)&#8195;As used in this section, the term:
(a)&#8195;&#8220;Dwelling&#8221; means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b)&#8195;&#8220;Residence&#8221; means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c)&#8195;&#8220;Vehicle&#8221; means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.


----------



## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

My daddy raised me with the shoot to kill advice and it had nothing to do with being tough. He also raised me with the don't say a single word to a cop past I want a lawyer advice.

I don't think he was wrong. I understood his point. If I was ever in a situation where I had no foolproof escape or those with me had no foolproof escape and I felt my life or there's was at risk, then I better understand that it means I couldn't *****foot around with the gun.

You unload it into you target or targets because you need to so everything possible to stop the risk. That way you also don't risk losing control of a loaded weapon to the person. If they go down, then you reload in case there are more of them. You call the law as soon as you can. You make sure everyone there is safe, and when they show up, you don't say anything past you want a lawyer, and no one else says anything past they want a lawyer if they are questioned.

The legal side will play out to your best advantage that way. And, if I were ever charged with something criminally, I would still think my actions and consequences were the lesser of two evils because what I couldn't live with would be if I or my loved ones were hurt or killed and I knew I could have at least tried to stop it.

Now, I will say I only believe in those ways if we're talking about someone at your home or property or being out somewhere and being confronted by someone when you very clearly are trying to mind your own business and not gunning for a fight.

That George whatever his name was guy in Florida who shot the trauvon Martin kid's scenario does not at all fit into that category in my mind.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JJ Grandits said:


> There have been several scenario's like this here locally in the beautiful socialist state of New York. In those cases the shootings were ruled justified. Sounding "tough" has nothing to do with it. You break into my house where myself, my wife, my daughter and my son are sleeping, and I will fear for my life and theirs. If someone is so hell bent and crazed that they ignore the dogs, my use of deadly force is the only option. This is not the time for some sort of legal or moral discussion.
> 
> Tell me, *What would you do?* I'd love to hear it.


Personally I would shoot them without hesitation, but in NC I can *legally*
shoot them through the door to prevent them from entering at all.
Some states say you have to retreat if possible.

If they are obviously trying to exit the home, it is no longer legal to shoot

All the internet "what if's" are pointless unless you define the *specific* laws that apply and the* precise* circumstances

There is no "one size fits all"


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> No, of course not.
> You are sometimes not even aware of what you are doing when you are awakened, we all know that about you.
> How you managed to get them both, and even reload a 2nd time to finish off the last one, in a sleepy daze, we'll never know.......


That's the kind of foolish advice that gets people in trouble, whether you think it's funny or not.

It ranks right up there with "Drag them back into the house"

Adding a  doesn't make it less stupid when answering life or death questions


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Here in New York you have to retreat, UNLESS you are in direct threat to your life or someone else's. If you are in your house, you have already retreated as far as you can go. A couple of years ago in a suburb of Buffalo a man was shot and killed because he entered the wrong home. He was at a wedding party, got drunk and went for a walk. When he returned he went into a neighbors home instead of the house he was staying at. The homeowner heard someone enter the house and got his gun. The person was walking up the stairs and the homeowner claims he called out to him but the person kept coming. Homeowner fired, intruder was killed, case ruled a justifiable homicide.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

In Wisconsin I have yet to hear of a person who was charged for shooting an intruder that was over the threshold , provided that the person had not invited them , they had no business there (you can't shoot the gas meter reader for checking the meter in the basement) and there was reasonable fear of serious injury or death at the time knowing what the person knew , even if no actual danger likely existed if knowing what the shooter knew at the time of the trigger pull could a person have reasonable fear of life or limb.


to answer the question that is sure to be asked , yes both drunk and drugged persons acting erratically or beating down the door they may have thought was their own have been shot , actually more often by police than home owners but by both and I have yet to see a Wisconsin case that was not rule justifiable , It appears there would have to be evidence of fowl play on the part of the home owner 

they did however charge a person who had a drunk/drugged banging on the door that fired a warning shot through the window , not as serious as murder provided your bullet impacts the dirt an not a person but another reason not to fire warning shots , and probably part of where the "shoot to kill " comes from when it should be shoot to stop whenever you feel your in eminent danger of serious injury or death.

one case where he home owner was charged and currently sits in prison was a man who tired of his car always being broken into , heard his girl friends car being broken into on the street in front of his house , he stepped out on to the porch and the 3 men that had broken into the car ran he fired at them running away killing at least one and injuring the others 

here is a cut from an article by the Wisconsin Bar association
http://www.wisbar.org/newspublicati...rticle.aspx?Volume=86&Issue=5&ArticleID=10836

_Real-world cases in which a home&#8217;s occupants are fortunate enough to defend against intrusion, albeit rare, garner media attention and debate over whether the force used in self-defense was appropriate. Some situations present clear-cut examples of justifiable force and result in an almost immediate decision not to prosecute the actor. For example, in Oklahoma, an 18-year-old widow at home with her 3-month-old son, just a week after her husband died of cancer, shot and killed a knife-wielding intruder while speaking with the 911 dispatcher.5
In other cases, the need to use force in self-defense is not as clear after the fact. A local example is the death of Bo Morrison, a 20-year-old Slinger native who had been at a garage party with other young friends in March 2012. Morrison hid in the neighbor&#8217;s enclosed porch after the party was shut down at 2 a.m. Hearing noises, the neighbor loaded his handgun, went to the porch, and shot Morrison to death after Morrison stepped toward him. The Washington County district attorney did not prosecute, concluding that the homeowner acted reasonably in his use of force in self-defense.
In 2011, the Wisconsin Legislature enacted several laws ostensibly designed to promote public safety and protection through fortification of the right to self-defense. In December 2011, Wisconsin enacted 2011 Wisconsin Act 94, known as the castle doctrine law. Effective Dec. 21, 2011, the law affords a presumption of immunity in civil and criminal actions to individuals who use deadly force in self-defense against persons unlawfully or forcibly entering their home, motor vehicle, or place of business. It also prohibits consideration of whether the actor had an opportunity to flee or retreat before he or she used force._


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Here in New York, if I am in my house and the intruder is outside he can do almost anything he wants (aside from arson) and I can not respond.


----------



## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

You realy need to know the law in your state on defense in your own home! 
I used to be a cop, one who regularly went to classes run by very experienced cops DEA NY. NY homicide detective types on how as a cop you needed to talk to the district attorney and other lawyers very carefully. 
Despite what you see on TV as soon as you get a Miranda statement read to you do not say another word! about the shooting till your lawyer gets there. You are required to answer basic questions, ID address ect but say zip about the incident. You did not shoot to kill! you engaged the target till it stopped attacking you!
Also if you say a single word to the press before during or after your a complete Moron! they cannot get anything right and an incident the DA would normally let drop suddenly become a massacre of innocents . 
Also I would add a powerful flashlight to your home guard weapon they make them with a switch on wire so that when you squeeze down on it the light goes on so your hands are both on the weapon. Also keep you from shooting an idiot kid trying to sneak in after curfew . The lights and switches are cheap on Ebay with various mounts. I'm with the guy above who thought a shotgun with more rounds than a double was better. It adds the wracking the action noise, to encourage morons to surrender! professional criminals not so much! as they know how easy it is to miss with a shotgun, if you don't aim. Of course it adds having to find the ejected round underfoot after. With me that gets the #6 shot round out of the way and puts the #4 buckshot up to firing position.
This is a topic that gets endlessly discussed when guys get to bulls-- er talking. Know what to do in your real world, may save you needing to teach your cell mate to read.
Dutch


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Marsh, I took the class and got the permit. Now there saying that a permit isn't needed that anybody who legally wants to, and I suppose all those who aren't leagel to, can carry open or shut.
I told the instructor that all I had was a 36 Navy. He said never mind he would get me a gun to fire on the range. When we got there, he came up and asked why I wasn't shooting, I reminded him that I needed a gun. He said not to worry and left, and came back with his wifes gun. It was the size of a 41 Darrenger. I was afraid that I might stick one of my fingers in front of the barrel. I shot it. It kept jamming. He presently came along. Looked at the target and asked again why I wasn't shooting. I said the gun keeps jamming. He said, are you satisfied? I said I was, then he said I could go. I was the first one to leave. As I said I have a double with 36in barrels. Its a OLD Damascus twist gun so I shoot quail loads in it. I also have a 50 Hawkin, and a OLD 22 pump along with 2 36 C&B pistols.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

farm boy bill none of those make very good carry guns , if your going to carry much you might think about a more convenient carry gun


----------



## joejeep92 (Oct 11, 2010)

No one in a legit training class every uses the words shoot to kill. They will however use the term shoot to stop the threat. Once the threat has stopped, whether that means bodies on the ground or not, the shooting stops.


----------



## Ozark Mountain Jewel (Jul 12, 2009)

For good or bad, this is what I was told by two Springfield, Mo. police officers about a man who was stalking me. They said that if he came on my property and I had fear for my life I could kill him with no legal trouble as long as he didn't appear (and they used quotation fingers) to be fleeing. They said it was best if he entered my house first but even just on the property would be legal. They hinted that he not be allowed to crawl off the property if wounded.


----------



## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

DEKE01 said:


> If what you fear is a lawsuit, killing the guy isn't going to help. OJ Simpson killed 2 people and still got sued and lost. I know, that was a different situation, but even in a home invasion, in many cases the dead intruder's family has just as much right to sue as a merely wounded home intruder. Though some states rightly limit civil liability for justified homicide as defined within their castle law.
> 
> And don't get me wrong. If life is at risk, fire for effect, baby. I'll not shed a single tear for a man killed while robbing a home.
> 
> *In a story, last year I think, the home owner had laid in wait to kill a young man and his girlfriend when they broke into the house a second or third time. I knew the homeowner was in the wrong and was going to lose in court. He was relying on a wrong interpretation of what I see written in HT so often that if they are in your house you can kill at will. There are limitations to that concept, even in a castle doctrine state. Even though it was not a justifiable homicide, I still don't' care one whit that the burglar was shot dead. He was a criminal committing a crime and paid the ultimate price. Too bad for him.*


*

*Are you revering to the incident in MN?The homeowner in this incident had been broken into 4 or 5 times at least. He was convicted because he finished off the wounded kids with a coup de grace shot in the head instead of calling for an ambulance. He also invited the break in by parking his car a few blocks away so it looked like no one was home. 

I won't shoot unless my life or someone else's life is in danger. 

The best advice you got is what you took, go through a concealed carry course and they will tell you all the laws in your state.


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Pete, I havnt carried since I got the card. Don't have/see a reason. Got it because a tightwad in church I used to go to wanted to get one and get a reduction in individual fees.


----------



## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Nimrod said:


> [/B]Are you revering to the incident in MN?The homeowner in this incident had been broken into 4 or 5 times at least. He was convicted because he finished off the wounded kids with a coup de grace shot in the head instead of calling for an ambulance. He also invited the break in by parking his car a few blocks away so it looked like no one was home.
> 
> I won't shoot unless my life or someone else's life is in danger.
> 
> The best advice you got is what you took, go through a concealed carry course and they will tell you all the laws in your state.


yep, that was the story.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

my dad was on a jury many years ago , before any of the carry laws or anything , the circumstances of the shooting were questionable but there was no question the guy who was shot was real bad guy , and they would have let the defendant in the case walk had he not , gone back and shot the corps again with a completely UN-nessaccary finishing shot to the head point blank , after the guy was definitely already dead the coroner could place the shots minutes apart because of the wound characteristics


you can stutter and spit and sputter on the 911 call that took you 5 attempts to dial cause you were so shook up but you can't finish off an assailant once the threat has ended


----------



## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> People will give bad advice like that all the time because it sounds "tough"
> 
> The ONLY correct answer is learn the deadly force statutes for your state, and don't be stupid.
> 
> Read them yourself, and don't just ask anyone, especially a cop


Cops are the worst "street lawyers" in general:yuck:.


----------



## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

FarmboyBill said:


> Marsh, I took the class and got the permit. Now there saying that a permit isn't needed that anybody who legally wants to, and I suppose all those who aren't leagel to, can carry open or shut.
> I told the instructor that all I had was a 36 Navy. He said never mind he would get me a gun to fire on the range. When we got there, he came up and asked why I wasn't shooting, I reminded him that I needed a gun. He said not to worry and left, and came back with his wifes gun. It was the size of a 41 Darrenger.  I was afraid that I might stick one of my fingers in front of the barrel. I shot it. It kept jamming. He presently came along. Looked at the target and asked again why I wasn't shooting. I said the gun keeps jamming. He said, are you satisfied? I said I was, then he said I could go. I was the first one to leave. As I said I have a double with 36in barrels. Its a OLD Damascus twist gun so I shoot quail loads in it. I also have a 50 Hawkin, and a OLD 22 pump along with 2 36 C&B pistols.


All of the above are nice for Cowboy Action Shooting, Civil War Re-Enacting, Playing Mountain Man at the Rondevous, etc. You need to obtain a modern pump shotgun (Mossberg 500, Remington 870, etc) or a modern revolver with ammunition fit for the purpose at hand (home or self-defense). Otherwise forget the whole idea.:facepalm:


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

as a general rule of thumb for carry open or concealed I say anything that you can't get parts and repairs for quickly without seeking a specialty smith , having parts fabricated or getting parts from donor guns you don't already own and know how to fix, should be set aside for casual shooting.

Ideally you have a spare or backup carry gun if it is something you don't want to be without things break half the time it is a pin or an extractor that costs only a few dollars to have on hand , but can be back ordered or cost you twice or more the price of the part in shipping

if you wanted to get the license just to have it and leave your option open , enjoy , but anyone looking for a carry gun should look at reliability , repair ability , and cost of holsters and holster availability as a part of the cost as well as ammunition cost and availability.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

If you shoot someone, and you were justified, you will still be a suspect in a homicide investigation. If you did everything right, and are no billed by the grand jury. The nation wide average for your legal bills will be about $50,000.00, have a nice day.

Muleskinner2


----------



## Road Runner (Aug 31, 2017)

When I went to the police station to get my security license I asked the desk sargeant "what if I'm put in a situation where l have to use my gun" he replied "honor all fire, that's the best advice I can give you" 

I was put in a situation one night, I caught these guys breaking into the local liquor store. I pointed my gun at them and said "hands up" (I know, that's as corny as Kansas in August) They ran off to their 2 vehicles and took off. I got both registration numbers, went and woke the local cop and told him what happened. The cops got 'em later that morning.
I could tell you guys a real life funny story of an incident when I was a security officer, but I will save it for later.

RR


----------



## Grey Mare (Jun 28, 2013)

I always worry that because we are FFL and have our "shop" in our home, someone may get silly and decide were easy targets. I have my own personal carry pistol in my bedside drawer with one in the chamber, a Glock .9mm with Hornady safety rounds. The husband has a Glock .10mm in his.

For me, learning to carry and getting my concealed carry permit is personal. I once use to run on a rescue squad for our county, one afternoon my paramedic and I picked up a man who was in dire straights, she stabilized him and we got him to the hospital. Because I worked at the hospital also, realized the next day the man was on our floor, so checked in on him and wished him well. Few days later I went by his room and he was very upset, he admitted he had little money and didn't know how to get home, no kin to speak of who could come get him so I took him home. This is when someone should of hit me upside the head with a 2x4!

Turns out, the man became fixated on me. Found out where I lived, got my home phone number and started to call me, leaving me phone msg's that made me skin crawl, sending me very suggestive and lewd letters, saying how we were soul mates, destined to be together, etc. Started to call the hospital to ask if I was there, calling the rescue squad to see if I was running duty that night, and hanging around the local super market as well hoping, I late found out, to see me. I found out later that he got my information from a "friend" inside the hospital, as our number is unlisted. 

Police in our town were no help at all. They said because he hadn't come to my house, that I was aware of, hadn't "harmed me" or threatened me, there was really nothing they could do about it and to ignore the letters and change my phone number if it bothered me so much. This continued for over a year, AND he was seen at some of the local horse shows with his friends. I found out from our asst. chief, who was a deputy in another county, he had his rap sheet pulled. This man was not upstanding, as his rap sheet was 5 and a half pages long! 

I learned to shoot. I am good at it, I practice often, and I was taught, when you pull your firearm to use it for protection you shoot to kill. IF this man had attempted to harm me by breaking into my home, I would of aimed center mass and dropped him where he stood. I personally take carrying a firearm very seriously.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Grey Mare , when you need to use deadly force *you shoot to stop. *you are not shooting to Kill specifically but you are shooting for the most likely place to get an attack ending hit(s). it just so happens that center mass makes the best stop because there is the most vital organs and spine in the same location with the more room for margin of error.

I agree with you on the rest. that verbiage seems minor but don't give the bad guys any room for criticism of your action you only wanted the attack to stop .


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

The NRA keeps track of homeowner shootings nation wide. They claim on average if you are involved in a shooting in your home, and you do everything right your legal costs will be around fifty thousand dollars, criminal and civil. Remember if you have to shoot someone, you will be a suspect in a homicide investigation until you are cleared. Then you will probably be sued by someone.

Draw quickly, shoot carefully.

Muleskinner2


----------

